[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[Jeff]

1) I've always played an assortment of one-ofs in this deck whenever 4 Snuff Outs isn't a good call, because the deck runs enough draw that you can often find just the right spell for the job. Also, other than Affinity, every removal spell is decent against most decks that run creatures, since the only time Edict is bad against merfolk is when they have a LoA and multiple other creatures. I was very intentional about the removal package, and while I'm trying to move the EE to the board, I was very happy with the rest of it all night.

2) I did miss the stifles a little, but not much. I'm actually playing Delver in place of the stifles. Essentially, playing Delver makes me a proactive "play spells on mainphase turn 1" kind of deck. I don't want to hold up Stifle mana turn 1, then play Delver turn 2, and by Hymning on turn 3, I want to Hymn on turn 2. I also don't want to hold up stifle mana, hymn, and then wait until turn 3 to play Delver. As a result, IMO Delver and Stifle really don't fit in the same deck. Given that decision, I found the additional hand disruption fit the gameplan Delver gave the deck better than Stifle would have.
If you want to play Stifle and Delver, I'd recommend cutting Hymn for the Stifles, going to 3 Delvers, 4 stifles, and 4 1 mana discard spells, because then you're set up for two 1 mana spells on turn 2, instead of Hymn. I don't necessarily think that's the right call, but it's really the only way I think I'd play Delver and Stifle together.

3) I like having 'em both. Pulse is great because it can come in against the aggro decks and against Jace decks, while EE can only really come in against the aggro decks. Pulse's card advantage is much more heavily dependent upon how my opponent draws than EE (although obviously they both are, because EE could suck if they have a 1 drop, 2 drop, and 3 drop), so I'd prefer the EE against the aggro decks. Again, run 8 cantrips, run cards that have utility in a lot of matchups, and increase the odds that you'll find the right card when you need it. In the Jace matchups, Pulse and the 2 Jaces funtion as my answers to Jace. In the aggro matchups, Pulse and the 2 EE's function as my sweepers. Doing it this way decreases the number of sideboard slots I'm using for each matchup.

[catmint]

1)
2) I did miss the stifles a little, but not much. I'm actually playing Delver in place of the stifles. Essentially, playing Delver makes me a proactive "play spells on mainphase turn 1" kind of deck. I don't want to hold up Stifle mana turn 1, then play Delver turn 2, and by Hymning on turn 3, I want to Hymn on turn 2. I also don't want to hold up stifle mana, hymn, and then wait until turn 3 to play Delver. As a result, IMO Delver and Stifle really don't fit in the same deck. Given that decision, I found the additional hand disruption fit the gameplan Delver gave the deck better than Stifle would have.


Thanks for your insight. That were the biggest problems I had in testing Delver and your conclusion makes sense. I thought it makes sense to wait for Turn 2 to play delver, but it was often very awkward...

Did you feel that the daze was much worse without Stifle?

Did you test against Merfolk? Would be intersting to see if we can just outrace them easier now....

[Jeff]

Typically Daze is good because with Stifle, they're forced into play stuff as soon as they can because they don't necessarily have the ability to wait until they have more mana. In this deck, they're forced to play those cards early because of all the discard, so they can't necessarily be patient and hold on to cards, or they might lose them.

I'd agree, Stifle is better at making Daze great than discard is, but I'm kinda making do. I feel like I really need the countermagic, and there isn't really another counterspell as good for that slot.

I have not been able to test against a good merfolk player, but I do think this is gonna be better against merfolk than any stifle based build has ever been. Now, the BUG control lists are probably much better against merfolk than this, but if you want to play a tempo oriented Team America list, this probably has the best merfolk matchup. My girlfriend is a good aggro player and a good prison player (she mostly plays enchantress), but she really doesn't do control very well, so even though I got a few games in against merfolk, I wouldn't count them as much in the way of results. My typical merfolk testing partner was sick this week but hopefully I can get some games in with him soon.

J

[Purgatory]

Played in two smaller local events this weekend, T8'd both of them using this list:


4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Dismember
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Side:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Darkblast
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt


The first was a 20-people qualifying tournament to a bigger Legacy event at a convention this halloween. I went 3-0 in the first three rounds of the swiss, beating Dredge, BUG-Nought (team mate) and Next-Level Thresh before ID'ing the last two rounds for the T8, ending up first-seeded in the swiss with awesome tiebreakers. Sadly, I lost in the quarterfinals to Goblins of all things, piloted by a player who I'm usually able to beat.

I lost the first match after we both topdecked awesomely late in the match - I was able to topdeck a second Tombstalker after he Warren Weirding'd my first one, which would have ended the match if it wasn't for the Weirding on top of his library. Second game I get a bit greedy with my lands and keep a hand of Stifle, Waste, UGSea, Brainstorm, Ponder and removals. I fail to find any lands with my cantrips and he double-wastes me. I can't recover and he beats in with Lackeys for lots of brokeness. After the game, he revealed a grip of double-REB.


After the tournament I thought it'd be an excellent idea to drown the bitterness of losing in the quarters with alcohol, and as such I went out to the pub with a couple of my non-magic friends, and they fail to understand why I'm initially a bit upset over losing while "playing with those silly cards". In any case, the night went on longer than expected, and I ended up at an after-party and slept for about two hours. Still drunk, I made my way to the bus in order to play in a GPT, to get some revenge from yesterday.

We made it to the site about an hour and a half too early and I have to sit around and feel like crap for way longer than expected and when we finally see pairings posted, a friend of mine says something along the lines of "I don't want to play against you", so of course we're paired against each other.

22 people at the tournament meant 5 rounds of swiss, and I planned another 3-0-2 day. I win against my friend 2-0 and then get paired against my other friend at the tournament, winning against him too. They were playing MUD and Dark Thresh respectively, and it's a shame that, while I'm 2-0 when we leave for food after round two, they are both 1-1 and it's my fault. The MUD player made T8 anyway, so all is well with him at least.

I win round three against Combo Elves, losing game two when he drops NO for Prog and I can't find another creature to race it. Round four, I'm set to draw, but my opponent wants to play, saying that a) we're both safe at 3-1-1 as well as 3-0-2 and b) he wants some real testing with his deck for Amsterdam. I agree to play him, since I didn't pay 30 bucks to go to the site and pay entrance fee to sit around and accept draws either. He's playing CounterBlade with Snapcasters and we play three tight duels with him coming out on top 2-1 after barely surviving game three. We both mulled to five, I in game one and he in game two.

I draw the last round for 3-1-1 and a thrid place in the swiss, with the best tiebreakers at 10 points. I'm paired against Patriot for the quarterfinals, again with Snapcaster Mage, and I get behind after he wastes me out of mana, with me finding no fetches and having to put back Waste, Goyf on top in response to his Waste. I almost pull through, but protecting Tombstalker or Delver against 4 Swords and 4 Snapcasters is difficult, and we're off to game two.

I take control early in game two, but fail to establish any real pressure, due to him finding answers to all my threats. He steals a Goyf with Mind Harness, slaps a Jitte on it and swings for the win. I drew like 12 lands over the course of the game, and we both had quite a laugh about it.

Not nearly as bitter as I thought I'd be after getting stabbed by my manabase two quarterfinals in a row, I'm still happy I made T8 with the deck two days in a row. I've also found that I play the best magic while hung over, something to note for the future.

Regarding the list, Delver was pretty awesome, and there were never really any conflicts in between Delver, Stifle and Hymn. Sure, Delver turn 1 means one can't fake Stifle all the time anymore, but I think swinging with a 3/2 flyer on turn two is worth that sacrifice. Jace was less-than-stellar for most of the two tournaments, but won me a couple of games with his Boomerang ability and his ability to fate-seal away answers to my Tombstalker against for example NLT on Saturday.

Overall, I'm quite happy with the list, and I'm currently debating with myself over which money rare to get from Innistrad, either I go back to playing StoneBlade again for some time, meaning I have to get a couple of Snapcasters, or I'll stick to TA and that means getting Liliana.

[Esper3k]

Just wondering - why are you guys playing Surgical Extraction over Extirpate? Do you find the difference in cost actually mattering that much over the Split Second benefit of Extirpate?

[metamet]

The real reason you should be playing Surgical Extraction over Extirpate is Snapcaster Mage.

Beyond that, I've always preferred Extirpate. One black is easy enough to find, especially in matchups like Reanimator where counterspells exist.

[Esper3k]

The real reason you should be playing Surgical Extraction over Extirpate is Snapcaster Mage.

Beyond that, I've always preferred Extirpate. One black is easy enough to find, especially in matchups like Reanimator where counterspells exist.

I can understand it if you're playing Snapcaster Mage yourself and want to flash it back for 0 mana cost, but otherwise, I don't see too much reason to play it over Extirpate in a black deck.

[detroitpro]

The art on Surgical Extraction is better.

[Purgatory]

Just wondering - why are you guys playing Surgical Extraction over Extirpate? Do you find the difference in cost actually mattering that much over the Split Second benefit of Extirpate?

Well, isn't it quite obvious? Only against Reanimator does the Split Second thing matter, against other decks I board it in (Loam, Lands, Dredge etc.) Extraction does the exact same thing as Extirpate, and Extraction costs 0, while Extirpate costs 1.

[Esper3k]

I would argue that against decks like Aggro Loam / Lands, the Split Second of Extirpate is significant due to their ability to get Loam back with their cycling lands. Sure you can try and play around it, but they can also play around Extraction as well.

I was just asking to see if there was any reason I had missed.

[Purgatory]

I would argue that against decks like Aggro Loam / Lands, the Split Second of Extirpate is significant due to their ability to get Loam back with their cycling lands. Sure you can try and play around it, but they can also play around Extraction as well.

I was just asking to see if there was any reason I had missed.

True, there are cases where the Split Second could matter against those decks as well, however, for most of my testing I've had way more use for the free manacost of Extraction than the Split Second of Extirpate. I've tried different splits, and in the end it's about personal taste and expected metagame, as is most other sideboard decisions.

[Esper3k]

True, there are cases where the Split Second could matter against those decks as well, however, for most of my testing I've had way more use for the free manacost of Extraction than the Split Second of Extirpate. I've tried different splits, and in the end it's about personal taste and expected metagame, as is most other sideboard decisions.

Thanks! This was kind of what I was looking for as well, to see if the cheaper cost of Extraction was worth losing Split Second for (in people's experience).

[nitewolf9]

If you aren't running Snapcaster Mage I don't think I would run either. Crypt effects are way better vs Dredge, and just about the same vs Reanimator, if not better as it's much easier to protect a Tormod's Crypt from discard.

[Purgatory]

If you aren't running Snapcaster Mage I don't think I would run either. Crypt effects are way better vs Dredge, and just about the same vs Reanimator, if not better as it's much easier to protect a Tormod's Crypt from discard.

Diversity within the GY hate > lack thereof.

[SansSerif]

No love for Leyline of the Void? I have limited testing with the card, but it is a bomb verus dredge/reanimate/loam that must be answered. We can provide protection with our discard and counters to buy time for a delver or Goyf to win.

I love Extripate, but i think it is much easier for GY decks to overcome an extirpate than it is for them to overcome a Leyline.

[Vandalize]

No love for Leyline of the Void? I have limited testing with the card, but it is a bomb verus dredge/reanimate/loam that must be answered. We can provide protection with our discard and counters to buy time for a delver or Goyf to win.

I love Extripate, but i think it is much easier for GY decks to overcome an extirpate than it is for them to overcome a Leyline.

As a veteran Dredge pilot, all I have to say is that Leyline of the Void is my worst nightmare (perhaps, all dredge player's nightmare).

Especially in Team America who runs discard/counterspells backup.

Against Leyline, we need to mulligan agressively for Nature's Claim and Ray of Revelation. And almost always, we don't get enough gas if we mulligan for anti-hate.

[Goddik]

Great love for leyline, but not in a 4 ponder, 4 brainstorm deck. When you have that much search it is nicer with something that can get pulled from the top. I liked leyline in BUGstill for what its worth.

[Goddik]

Been really dissapointed by delver in testing. He does nothing in all the aggro matchups where we really need him to pull weight

[wcm8]

Been really dissapointed by delver in testing. He does nothing in all the aggro matchups where we really need him to pull weight

I think Delver works really well in a deck like Canadian Thresh, where the deck doesn't really have any mid-to-late game bombs and is instead entirely focused on dealing with the early game. TA is generally more midrangey, and so a 1 drop like Delver can be underwhelming.

edit: Check out Dan's new top 8 list from Jupiter Games... 4 Delvers.

[catmint]

My testing with the delver build was also not that impressive. Of course it can be very strong, but it is too vulnerable and conditional.

In general I have to admit that my first instincts were wrong. What I mean is that my initial thought after the MM banning and Innistrad release was that snapcaster has to be dismissed for the sake of running a 20 land build with Stifle/Daze/Wasteland. Now I see that Midrange is still here and also a lot of other decks make it to the late game, where we draw stifle/daze and they draw Jace, snapcaster, Knight of the Reliquary or other bombs. After playing the 23 land build with snapcaster and Jace that SCG calls "Team America", I have to admit it feels very strong. Still crushing combo, but a much stronger game versus the rest of the field...

[Einherjer]

My testing with the delver build was also not that impressive. Of course it can be very strong, but it is too vulnerable and conditional.

In general I have to admit that my first instincts were wrong. What I mean is that my initial thought after the MM banning and Innistrad release was that snapcaster has to be dismissed for the sake of running a 20 land build with Stifle/Daze/Wasteland. Now I see that Midrange is still here and also a lot of other decks make it to the late game, where we draw stifle/daze and they draw Jace, snapcaster, Knight of the Reliquary or other bombs. After playing the 23 land build with snapcaster and Jace that SCG calls "Team America", I have to admit it feels very strong. Still crushing combo, but a much stronger game versus the rest of the field...

What list are you refering to?

[catmint]

I tested delver in different builds (With or without stifle) and without snapcaster running goyfs and tombstalker. Why is the exact list important to you?

[Jeff]

I've got my list ready for Baltimore, down to a few minor card choices. I took it to a tournament last Sunday, went 3-0 in swiss before IDing twice into the top 8, then won the first two matches of top 8 before splitting the finals. Took it to a 4 round swiss tournament wednesday, went 3-0 before splitting the finals, so right now this build is 8-0 in sanctioned play. Unfortunately almost all of those matches were against combo and control, not aggro or merfolk, so I'm a little short on some of the testing. My game 1 zoo matchup is weak, but postboard it gets much better.

For clarification, I have now beaten the following decks with this in tournaments:

Team America (with Jace and Snapcaster and extra lands)
Hive Mind
ANT
B/W Stoneforge
Charbelcher
Enchantress
Reanimator
U/W Stoneforge

The Decklist

Creatures (15)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Snapcaster Mage

Spells (26)
4x Force of Will
4x Daze

4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm

2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek

2x Unearth
2x Ghastly Demise
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Liliana of the Veil

Land
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
1x Island

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Extirpate
2x Spell Pierce
1x Dispel
1x Thoughtseize
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Ghastly Demise
2x Darkblast
1x Dismember
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Go for the Throat

Overview

It's a pretty big departure from Team America in that it is no longer a Tempo deck, it plays like an aggro deck. As a result, I ended up cutting some key cards you're used to seeing in Team America (Hymn to Tourach, Wasteland), because the gameplan of the deck is very different.

Specifics

Hymn to Tourach isn't as good in this deck because I'm not trying to create card advantage and win via resource denial, but instead I'm trying to play an aggressive deck backed up by counterspells and hand disruption. As a result, I'm less interested in the 2for1 created by Hymn, and more interested in the card selection offered by Thoughtseize and Inquisition. I'm also looking to play Tarmogoyf or Dark Confidant on turn 2, so having a good turn 1 play (Delver, Thoughtseize, Inquisition) is important. Past iterations of Team America have been less interested in a turn 2 Goyf than this build is, so Hymn really loses out here.

I'm down to 19 lands maindeck, but it feels like I'm running more lands than the old 20 and 21 lists because I've cut Wasteland entirely. The color requirements in this deck make Wasteland a little less practical, and since I'm not trying to grind out a game, I really don't need it. If you're playing against a deck that doesn't have Waste, feel free to cut the basic Island when boarding, and play 18 lands. It should probably just be playing 18 anyway, but I'm not quite that greedy. Against decks like Zoo that have path, cut a fetch instead so you can ramp off of Path.

The only real flex spot in the deck right now is the 2 Unearths. They're either amazing or totally insignificant. I've considered making them Spell Snares, or another removal spell, a preordain, or a thoughtseize. I've also pretty seriously considered going 1 Unearth and 1 Reanimate. Reanimate could be amazing in the reanimator matchup, if I draw it and manage to steal one of their fatties, it could be pretty impressive, and in the mirror it also seems quite good. Also I could slot a singleton Sylvan Library in one of those slots.

Sideboarding

The Thoughtseize in the board may become a Dispel, because I can bring in Dispel against zoo, and I can't bring Thoughtseize in against zoo. My plan against zoo is to cut the 8 counterspells and a fetch and bring in the 8 removal spells (counting liliana) and a Dispel. If I have a second Dispel, I can cut a Thoughtseize from the main for the second Dispel.

Against combo I cut the 2 ghastly demises, 2 unearths, and a fetch for the 2 spell pierces, 1 dispel, 1 thoughtseize, and 1 liliana. Depending on the kind of combo, the maelstrom pulse in the main and board are flexible: obviously I want the pulses if it's an empty the warrens wincon, but otherwise I don't want it.

Questions

Obviously I'm pretty set on most of the list right now, but I did have a few questions

- Thoughts on Unearth, and if not, what would you run in it's place? Spell Snare is the obvious choice I think, but this deck taps out SO much that having all of my counterspells playable for free has been really nice. Still, Snare could be good. A 5th discard spell would also be nice though, so I'm not sure what to do there
- This really depends on what happens with the unearths, but thoughts about a 2nd dispel in the sideboard? Is there a combo deck that Dispel is basically useless against and I'll wish they were pierces or flusterstorms?


Lastly, I firmly recognize this isn't Team America. My girlfriend has been calling it the Insect House, because it's basically just BUG Zoo, but for now, this seems to be the most appropriate forum for it.

I appreciate any and all suggestions/comments you have.

J

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Been really dissapointed by delver in testing. He does nothing in all the aggro matchups where we really need him to pull weight

Rank Player Points OMW%
1 Jerome, Puthod * [FRA] 27 76.46%
2 Köstler, Jonas * [DEU] 27 75.92%
3 Bertelsen, Daniel S * [DNK] 27 70.60%
4 Staaden Van, Niek * [NLD] 25 66.07%
5 Ahonen, Pekka * [NLD] 25 61.37%
6 Megias, Raul * [NLD] 24 80.24%
7 Goddik, Hans Jacob * [NLD] 24 79.55%
8 Frauenschläger, Mat * [DEU] 24 77.77%

[wcm8]

I got first place at a local tournament (Superior Sports Cards in Tarentum, PA) with the following list:

20 Lands (9 fetch 4 wastes 7 duals)
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Goyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Snapcaster
4 Hymn
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil

SB:
3 Spell Pierce
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate (sucks)
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Jace, TMS

In a heavy control metagame, I would consider dropping 1 Dismember in the main for an additional Maelstrom Pulse. Otherwise I think the main is pretty much optimized for a tempo build. Snapcaster was amazing all day, flashing back removal (yes, even Pulse), Hymns, cantrips, and once I even used it to replay Daze against an opponent tapping out to playing GSZ for four (presumably to find KotR). The card is the real deal, but I don't think I'd want to play more than 3 in this style of deck.

Liliana is awesome. She can just steal games, either by helping you get back or further ensure your advantage. I would highly recommend her as at least a 1-of.

Any UBG deck not running a Sylvan Library is doing it wrong. I may even consider a 2nd, it's that good.

As for the SB, I would cut Extirpate for an additional Crypt and Spellbomb. Extirpate does too little too late, and you want to be clearing the entire GY against dredge (which I was still luckily able to beat in the swiss). My thought was to use Snapcaster to flashback Extirpate, but you really don't typically have the time or opportunity against decks were GY hate really matters. The reason for the split of Crypt/Spellbomb is simply to avoid getting completely screwed by an early Cabal Therapy or Pithing Needle. Additionally, if you are up against some sort of control deck that utilizes the GY but not enough to warrant 4 slots, Spellbomb at the very least cantrips.

(However, if your metagame has no graveyard decks, these slots could be used for other cards like Perish, Darkblast, Krosan Grip/Seal of Primordium, etc. Or if you are only concerned with Reanimator but not Dredge, Faerie Macabre deserves some consideration as a nearly-uncounterable way to deal with their GY.)

I didn't always side in all 3 Pernicious Deed, but this card is still key for winning the Merfolk matchup, with other important applications against various decks. I could maybe see cutting one for a 2nd Maelstrom Pulse.

Re: Spell Pierce, I've never been a huge fan of targeted discard spells in this style of deck. I can see the merit in running Thoughtseize alongside a build using Delver of Secrets, but with my build I want Spell Pierce found via Brainstorm in reaction to some sort of threat, or I want to keep U up to at least bluff Stifle. I'd also rather an opponent waste mana on their own turn trying to resolve Hymn or whatever than me having to tap out on my turn and pay 2 life to pluck it. Thoughtseize is also of no help when your opponent topdecks their Show and Tell/Natural Order.

Admittedly, this tournament's sample size was relatively small, but I played against some rough matchups and the majority of the players at this event are very good (Rich Shay, Stu Somers, Tim Babcock etc). That said, I have also tested this build a lot online via Cockatrice and found it to be fantastic there as well.

[Goddik]

congratulations on the performances guys, didn't play Team America because i didn't have quite enough time to find a version of it that satisfies me in the G/W matchup (most of the Danish team where testing U/W so thats what we were spending time on), i played Eli Kassis esper-blade list from the Jupitor games with a couple of days of fine tuning and a real sideboard. That deck is really awesome with its ability to run with confidant and without force, and is by far the best snapcaster deck i have seen.

I will write up a report in the general section once i get a couple of days of sleep. I ended up 41st at x-4, a bit lower than i had hoped for but still ok.

[wcm8]

For the Maverick matchup, there are several cards that should help: Darkblast, Perish, Nature's Ruin, Virtue's Ruin, any black removal but especially Deathmark. Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives aren't too shabby either. Using Snapcaster to replay removal is also key. The only cards that seen utterly game breaking are Choke and an uncontested Aven Mindcensor when you have no lands. Otherwise, I fail to see why Maverick is any more difficult than any other aggro matchup.

[OurSerratedDust]

What are Team America's worst matchups? I've been trying to think of some decks that stomp it, but I can't think of many. I don't really know a whole lot about the deck's inner workings though.

[wcm8]

What are Team America's worst matchups? I've been trying to think of some decks that stomp it, but I can't think of many. I don't really know a whole lot about the deck's inner workings though.

Zoo (particularly fast versions with lots of little creatures and burn), Burn/Sligh, Merfolk, any deck running a bunch of non-basic hate (Choke, Blood Moon, etc). I also find Standstill style control decks with lots of removal somewhat difficult.

[dahcmai]

Anything with a lot of burn, Mono-B control (yeah really), Merfolk can be bad, and oddly enough you'll have a hard time against janky crap with a lot of basics.

I actually rarely play TA around my area just because there's always that one guy who can build a decent enough deck, but doesn't have the money for the duals and other expensive stuff and TA just starts hurting when it can't take advantage of those things.

It's really infuriating because it's such an amazing deck if you feel like decimating combo decks and we have no lack of those.

[jandax]

I got first place at a local tournament (Superior Sports Cards in Tarentum, PA) with the following list:

20 Lands (9 fetch 4 wastes 7 duals)
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Goyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Snapcaster
4 Hymn
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil

SB:
3 Spell Pierce
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate (sucks)
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Jace, TMS

In a heavy control metagame, I would consider dropping 1 Dismember in the main for an additional Maelstrom Pulse. Otherwise I think the main is pretty much optimized for a tempo build. Snapcaster was amazing all day, flashing back removal (yes, even Pulse), Hymns, cantrips, and once I even used it to replay Daze against an opponent tapping out to playing GSZ for four (presumably to find KotR). The card is the real deal, but I don't think I'd want to play more than 3 in this style of deck.

Liliana is awesome. She can just steal games, either by helping you get back or further ensure your advantage. I would highly recommend her as at least a 1-of.

Any UBG deck not running a Sylvan Library is doing it wrong. I may even consider a 2nd, it's that good.

As for the SB, I would cut Extirpate for an additional Crypt and Spellbomb. Extirpate does too little too late, and you want to be clearing the entire GY against dredge (which I was still luckily able to beat in the swiss). My thought was to use Snapcaster to flashback Extirpate, but you really don't typically have the time or opportunity against decks were GY hate really matters. The reason for the split of Crypt/Spellbomb is simply to avoid getting completely screwed by an early Cabal Therapy or Pithing Needle. Additionally, if you are up against some sort of control deck that utilizes the GY but not enough to warrant 4 slots, Spellbomb at the very least cantrips.

(However, if your metagame has no graveyard decks, these slots could be used for other cards like Perish, Darkblast, Krosan Grip/Seal of Primordium, etc. Or if you are only concerned with Reanimator but not Dredge, Faerie Macabre deserves some consideration as a nearly-uncounterable way to deal with their GY.)

I didn't always side in all 3 Pernicious Deed, but this card is still key for winning the Merfolk matchup, with other important applications against various decks. I could maybe see cutting one for a 2nd Maelstrom Pulse.

Re: Spell Pierce, I've never been a huge fan of targeted discard spells in this style of deck. I can see the merit in running Thoughtseize alongside a build using Delver of Secrets, but with my build I want Spell Pierce found via Brainstorm in reaction to some sort of threat, or I want to keep U up to at least bluff Stifle. I'd also rather an opponent waste mana on their own turn trying to resolve Hymn or whatever than me having to tap out on my turn and pay 2 life to pluck it. Thoughtseize is also of no help when your opponent topdecks their Show and Tell/Natural Order.

Admittedly, this tournament's sample size was relatively small, but I played against some rough matchups and the majority of the players at this event are very good (Rich Shay, Stu Somers, Tim Babcock etc). That said, I have also tested this build a lot online via Cockatrice and found it to be fantastic there as well.

Try Surgical Extraction instead of Extirpate. It works well with Snapcaster and is as live from the start of the game.

[Koby]

For the Maverick matchup, there are several cards that should help: Darkblast, Perish, Nature's Ruin, Virtue's Ruin, any black removal but especially Deathmark. Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives aren't too shabby either. Using Snapcaster to replay removal is also key. The only cards that seen utterly game breaking are Choke and an uncontested Aven Mindcensor when you have no lands. Otherwise, I fail to see why Maverick is any more difficult than any other aggro matchup.

Because every card is a MUST ANSWER.
KotR is often too big to remove and unanswered will destroy TA's manabase.
SFM finds equipment which this deck isn't equipped to handle without special tools.
Exalted beats means even a Bird of Paradise is a threat.

Not to mention that GSZ finds more of those cards, and such must be countered.
Versions that run Sylvan Library are able to ignore your discard and wait for the perfect time to play out threats.

Compared with regular aggro, Maverick only needs to land one of these and ride it to victory. Traditional aggro needs to swarm and press its early game threats before TA's Wall of Creatures stop its aggression.

Best way to answer Maverick are with Pernicious Deed and Perish, coupled with Thoughtseize and Hymn. The blue is mostly useless against them except for an occasional counter-spell. Boarding out Force of Will for more removal and card advantage is a good way to defeat this matchup.

EDIT: Liliana is very helpful in this matchup. Jace too, provided a constant stream of removal is flowing.

[Esper3k]

Yeah, Maverick is particularly nasty against tempo decks because as Rukcus pointed out, you pretty much have to answer every threat they play. Most Maverick lists are GW so their manabases are extremely stable on top of Noble Hierarch / Birds being great answers to Wasteland / Daze.

Deed (and sweepers in general) are great against decks like that, but board sweepers just aren't as popular these days in Legacy due to them not being very good against all the Snapcaster / SFM decks running around (especially in the American meta).

[nitewolf9]

You know what wrecks those decks? Massacre. Kills stoneforge mystic for free, and snapcaster + clique and co., and also kicks Maverick in the balls. The only threats it doesn't sweep there are Goyf, Knight, and sometimes Ooze. And that's where the rest of your removal goes.

It is awkward with Delver, but in the Snapcaster builds I would give it a try.

[Esper3k]

Eplague on Wizards is also hilarious against the Uw SCM decks.

[catmint]

Because every card is a MUST ANSWER.
Agree


Because every card is a MUST ANSWER.

Best way to answer Maverick are with Pernicious Deed and Perish, coupled with Thoughtseize and Hymn. The blue is mostly useless against them except for an occasional counter-spell. Boarding out Force of Will for more removal and card advantage is a good way to defeat this matchup.


I do agree that we ride to victory using deed, but I do not agree about hymn. Because we need to answer every threat, we cannot cast hymn. If mother untaps we cannot remove their pridemages/KoR which stop us from whiping the board with a deed before we are dead.

We get card advantage from Deed, Jace and by snapping back removal.
Play Discard and 3 Spell Pierce to make sure you don't loose to Choke or Sylvan Library. Spell Pierce is very good against Maverick besides of the "narrow" choke or Sylvan. GSZ (i.e. for pridemage) and also for equipments which they tend to cast (playing 3 equipments (no batterskull but Jitte) and only 3 stoneforges makes them cast equipments quite regularly).

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

So do the traditional 4 Tarmogoyf/4 Tombstalker builds not exist anymore?

[wcm8]

So do the traditional 4 Tarmogoyf/4 Tombstalker builds not exist anymore?

If you look at my most recent list, the creature configuration I'm using is 4 Tarmogoyf, 3 Tombstalker, 3 Snapcaster Mage. Big Dumb Guys are still excellent in Legacy, especially when other decks aren't playing BDGs of their own, and ESPECIALLY when a bunch of decks are using Lightning Bolt and Grim Lavamancer as their maindeck removal. Snapcaster is more of a utility card than a creature, but it helps with the beatdown plan somewhat as well.

[wcm8]

You know what wrecks those decks? Massacre. Kills stoneforge mystic for free, and snapcaster + clique and co., and also kicks Maverick in the balls. The only threats it doesn't sweep there are Goyf, Knight, and sometimes Ooze. And that's where the rest of your removal goes.

It is awkward with Delver, but in the Snapcaster builds I would give it a try.

Great suggestion, and may need some strong consideration for TA sideboards now that Drew Levin has been promoting the deck lately. Honestly, I think Zoo is a far harder matchup than Maverick since they run bigger threats and burn (esp. if they have Price of Progress).

[metamet]

So do the traditional 4 Tarmogoyf/4 Tombstalker builds not exist anymore?

I've been playing 4 Goyf, 3 Stalker, 2 Vcliques lately, because I like Stifle.

It's all a matter of whether you wanna play tempo or not. Snapcasters are decent, but your gameplan isn't t1 stifle, t2 hymn, t3 tombstalker anymore. You're playing more of a BUG control config, which is fine.

Just do what you want.

Also: Watch out for a lot of non-basic hate... I've found that that's been what's been wrecking me. I've seen too many Aggro Loam builds lately. Makes me want to play Life from the Loam... a little.

[Goddik]

Life from the loam is sick in Team America for particular metas. If you are looking for an advantage in the mirror and against other control decks then running a pair of loams somewhere in your 75 is very good.

[Said-In-Contest]

Hi everyone! This is my first post in this forum. Hope not to make some mistakes!
Talking about the deck, why not to play a sort of Dark Tempo Threshold? Something like this:

// Lands
4 [A] Underground Sea
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration

// Spells
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [NPH] Dismember
3 [MBS] Go for the Throat

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [OD] Ghastly Demise
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

The reasons I had to switch from a "standard" team america to this deck are:
1 without discard spell you don't have dead draws in mid-late game
2 you can play 8 cantrip spells (4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder) and dig your deck insanely;
3 Put some creature on the field in the first two turn, and ride a Delver of Secrets FTW. I think this creature is a turning point for decks like this, and been able to use it is something very important in my opinion
4 the RUG version of this deck is really strong, but cannot handle creatures like Knoght of the Reliquary, which seems to be more popular every day (just look at GP Amsterdam top32!)
So what's your opinion of this deck? Some ideas?
Looking forward to know your point of view!

[catmint]

Hi everyone! This is my first post in this forum. Hope not to make some mistakes!
Talking about the deck, why not to play a sort of Dark Tempo Threshold? Something like this:

// Lands
4 [A] Underground Sea
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration

// Spells
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [NPH] Dismember
3 [MBS] Go for the Throat

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [OD] Ghastly Demise
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

The reasons I had to switch from a "standard" team america to this deck are:
1 without discard spell you don't have dead draws in mid-late game
2 you can play 8 cantrip spells (4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder) and dig your deck insanely;
3 Put some creature on the field in the first two turn, and ride a Delver of Secrets FTW. I think this creature is a turning point for decks like this, and been able to use it is something very important in my opinion
4 the RUG version of this deck is really strong, but cannot handle creatures like Knoght of the Reliquary, which seems to be more popular every day (just look at GP Amsterdam top32!)
So what's your opinion of this deck? Some ideas?
Looking forward to know your point of view!

I don't think you can support so many 2 mana spells with 18 lands (4 Wastelands). This manabase works for canadian thresh, because they only have spells that are free or cost 1. Also you always want to have mana open for spell snare and stifle and therefore can't affort to pay 2 mana for a removal or a creature.

I also thinkt that red is much better for this deck than black, because red deals better with aggro and midrange than black does (lavamancer, firespout) and red also provides the last 3-6 damage to the face to end the race... and in a tempo deck is often about racing.

[SansSerif]

I went 3-1 in a local tourament placing 3rd out of 20 people. I ran a more control variant of Team American which borers on BUG.

My list was similar to the one shown here:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41302

I beat Reanimator, Control RUG (with snapcasters and stifles), and Merlok. I lost to Goblins, in large part to it's speed and ability to punish non-basics: Bloodmoon, Price of Progress and Wastelands. I do have 4 copies of deeds in my 75 cards, but I was unable to get them online fast enough to be effective.

A few thoughts:

1) I need a way to improve my matchup against goblins and aggro decks without hurting my control matchups. I have even considered Energy Field in sideboard.

2) I decided against the stifle game plan because of how many games I watched them sit in my hand with no effect. They are a bad late game top deck and not good in my worst matchups. I'm wondering if I should cut wasteland for similar reasons - perhaps add and island and swamp to the deck to improve the mana base.

3) I don't think red is a good way forward with this deck. If you want to race your opponent with aggro play zoo. This deck is much better when its controling the board and building card advantage. I would much rather flash back a thought seize or hymn than I would a lightning bolt. Black is the best color in this deck and it let's us play some of the best cards in legacy: thoughtseize, bob, hymn, liliana, along with many great removal spells.

[dahcmai]

You could always go back to Dystopia. It's the old answer to GW decks that get too big for their britches. Not a fast answer, but not a fun one for them to deal with. Randomly good for Enchantress also as a bonus.

Virtue's Ruin is one of the better ones also. I personally love that card anymore since it hits most of the green baddies and Maverick doesn't run Goyfs so it works exceptionally well against them.

[catmint]

1) I need a way to improve my matchup against goblins and aggro decks without hurting my control matchups. I have even considered Energy Field in sideboard.

Since nobody is talking about classic TA at the moment and there is no good BUG thread, I suggest we discuss this here.

Obviosly aggro is a problem for BUG and that is also the reason why I don't play one of the most powerful creatures which is Bob. He is just very very bad versus aggro. Also Thoughtseize and Dismember are very powerful cards which I want versus aggro, but are not playable having Bob in there.

Snapcaster on the other hand is very good against aggro (and midrange). My plan against aggro is to make sure I can consistantly trade 1 for 1 (or 2 for 1 with snapcaster) to survive and to kill critical creatures such as Goblin Lackey, Mother of Runes, Lord of Atlantis, Knight of the Reliquary, Phyrexian Revoker, Goblin Piledriver, Quasali Pridemage,... until I can blow them out with a deed and take over.

To make sure this plan works you also need pointed discard and countermagic such as thoughtseize and spell pierce to make sure you are not blown out by choke, back to basics, goblin ringleader, or a spell to kill your deed...

What is also important to understand is that Hymn is mostly not good against aggro (I explained some posts ago).

So my answer to aggro is (postboard):
Trade 1 for 1:
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Dismember
1 Darkblast
1 Go for the Throat
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Depending on the Matchup some numbers of: Spell Snare/Spell Pierce

Get an advantage / blow them out
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Pernicious Deed

Take over
1 Lialiana of the Veil
3 Jace, them Mindsculptor

[jandax]

Since nobody is talking about classic TA at the moment and there is no good BUG thread, I suggest we discuss this here.

Obviosly aggro is a problem for BUG and that is also the reason why I don't play one of the most powerful creatures which is Bob. He is just very very bad versus aggro. Also Thoughtseize and Dismember are very powerful cards which I want versus aggro, but are not playable having Bob in there.

Snapcaster on the other hand is very good against aggro (and midrange). My plan against aggro is to make sure I can consistantly trade 1 for 1 (or 2 for 1 with snapcaster) to survive and to kill critical creatures such as Goblin Lackey, Mother of Runes, Lord of Atlantis, Knight of the Reliquary, Phyrexian Revoker, Goblin Piledriver, Quasali Pridemage,... until I can blow them out with a deed and take over.

To make sure this plan works you also need pointed discard and countermagic such as thoughtseize and spell pierce to make sure you are not blown out by choke, back to basics, goblin ringleader, or a spell to kill your deed...

What is also important to understand is that Hymn is mostly not good against aggro (I explained some posts ago).

So my answer to aggro is (postboard):
Trade 1 for 1:
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Dismember
1 Darkblast
1 Go for the Throat
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Depending on the Matchup some numbers of: Spell Snare/Spell Pierce

Get an advantage / blow them out
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Pernicious Deed

Take over
1 Lialiana of the Veil
3 Jace, them Mindsculptor

Sound.

Hymn isn't good against aggro (mostly) because aggro has a lot of redundancy, and taking two redundant cards at random doesn't hurt them as much as it helps you. Where it's nuts, hymn can nab really important cards from an archetype. Otherwise it's an easy board out.

[Misplayer]

Sound.

Hymn isn't good against aggro (mostly) because aggro has a lot of redundancy, and taking two redundant cards at random doesn't hurt them as much as it helps you. Where it's nuts, hymn can nab really important cards from an archetype. Otherwise it's an easy board out.

I don't follow. If your playing against redundant aggro, wouldn't you rather be going 2-for-1 with Hymn than going 1-for-1 with removal/Thoughtseize/Inquisition?

[catmint]

I don't follow. If your playing against redundant aggro, wouldn't you rather be going 2-for-1 with Hymn than going 1-for-1 with removal/Thoughtseize/Inquisition?

Nothing wrong with 2 for 1 considering redundancy. What he meant is that hymn is much more powerful when you have the ability to screw the opponent by making him discard a combo peace or an important spell like jace or batterskull.

My reasoning why hymn is not that good against aggro is because:

1) we often need to kill the creature that is on-board in order to survive and execute our gameplan (i.e playing hymne while cursecatcher, mother of runes, goblin lackey, knight of the reliquary,... is on board has little value.)

2) we don't need card advantage in the early game, because we just need to survive to gain a huge advantage later on from snapcaster, jace and deed.

2) pointed discard and counterspells are more important to ensure deed works and we are not blown out by B2B, Choke, Pridemage or whatever.

The exception for me is fast Zoo where we do not face utility creatures and deed is too slow. Here I would leave Hmyn in and rather board out Jace (altough I never played against Zoo post MM, so not 100% set on my plan)

[wcm8]

Just a heads up for TA players: Reanimator decks are now running more Duress/Thoughtseize and Liliana of the Veil in the SB. This matchup used to be a breeze, but with these changes it isn't quite as simple as it used to be.

[TheRedBaron]

I'm Really not liking Snapcaster in this deck. It depends on the build, I know, I just would prefer more solid win cons in the creature slots:

Here is my latest Build:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Tombstalker

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
3x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
2 Dismember
1 Go For The Throat

4x Hymn
3x Thoughtseize

1x Pernicious Deed

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Trops
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

board:
4 Leyline
3 Deed
3 K-Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Diabolic Edict

[Squirrel]

Snapcaster is a house, but i don't wan't to play him, i also play delver, here is my List:

3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Stifle
1 Sylvan Library
4 Hymn to Tourach

I'm new to Team America and went 5-1 last Saturday and got second.
Played the Deck the first Time and played against
BigZoo 2 - 0
Maverick 0 - 2
Goblins 2 - 1
Canadian with Delver, Mungo , Goyf 2 - 0
U/W Tempo/Stoneblade Brew
Nic Fit ( Explorer Rock): 2 - 1
Didn't make notes and can't remember of anything (didn't expect to be so lucky:) with a new deck, hope everything is right)
I don't post my Sideboard, i contains shitty cards and is metagamed.


Is Pernicious Deed that good with Delver + Goyf?
Were two Bayou too many nonblue sources?
Also, 4 Ponder are a great addition to Brainstorm, i think.

Also i wonder how the basics are?

[Al-ucard]

Is Pernicious Deed that good with Delver + Goyf?


Pernicious or Perish is the card that you need to win the maverick matchup if you have this cards in your side you could make a 6-0

[TheRedBaron]

Pernicious or Perish is the card that you need to win the maverick matchup if you have this cards in your side you could make a 6-0

I agree. Deed is really strong. I was able to beat a White Stax player because I was able to board into 3 more Deeds. Sometimes It's worth "deeding" esp. against Manlands, Fish Type decks, and counterbalance/stax variants.

[Squirrel]

So, here we go again, played again this Week, same List as last week, but with nearly the same List ( Maindeck: -2 Stifle +2 Inquisition of Kozilek), went 5-1 again (:smile:):


Glimpse Elves 2-1
Glimpse Elves 2-0
Aluren 2-0
Dredge 0-2
Snapcaster UB (kind of Mirror) 2-0
TES 2-0

1st Place (out of 35) because of best opponent score. (Tropical yeaah)

Here's my sideboard:

2 Thrun, the last Troll
2 Extirpate
3 Spell Pierce
2 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
1 Go for the Throat
1 Smother

Some thoughts about it?
I know i don't had hate( tried to ignore Dredge xD), the Extirpates are vor Loam, Reanimator, don't know what else to play, actually thinking about cutting the Removal i have to much, never needed to board in smother for Example... Deck is still great. (as a side note, my delver never flipped only once without ponder/brainstorm/library..)

Greetz

[catmint]

I would like to talk about the differentation between TA and BUG control, because TCdecks and many others do not.

I wrote a primer for BUG control (can be found here):

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22551-DECK-BUG-Control-%28Primer%29

What I consider as BUG control:
23+ Lands
3+ Snapcaster mage
No Stifle/Daze

This deck has a totally different gameplan than a tempo deck and since the best tempo Deck is RUG, I think a BUG control deck built around snapcaster mage is the way to go for BUG colors (it has a better matchup versus RUG Tempo and creature based decks while still crushing combo)

To support that I looked at all the top16s from TC decks of October

41 in total
21 are CLEARLY BUG control
another 7-10 of those 41 are a mixture running some daze and 2 jace and some amout of tombstalker. I think those decks have more in common with BUG control than TA.

Of course for the deck/strategy to develop it needs to show good results, so everyone interested in cutting Stifle and adding lands and snapcaster join the BUG control thread until TCdecks and the thesource mods change something.

[wcm8]

I may be going completely off track here, but with Canadian thresh being a DTB I'm tempted to go back to using Sinkhole... Against a deck with only 18 lands, mana denial is pretty strong. I'll have to give it some testing to decide if it's worth it though.

Edit: I'm also considering going back to snuff out and thoughtseize. It almost seems like the metagame has come back full circle in some ways. This theory is currently untested, but I'll return with findings once I get some play testing in this weekend

[Koby]

I would say that with CanThresh being the top dog again, Life from the Loam and 2 basics (1 Island, 1 Swamp) might be the better way to run the deck. The SB options this deck has make it really attractive against Thresh - SCM + Surgical Extraction literally run the daggers on RUG.

[catmint]

Sinkhole ... not that good overall and does not bring a big advantage vs. RUG. You still have to tap out early to make sure you destroy lands before they play threats, which makes you vulnerable to Stifle and DAze. Hymn on the other hand has a lot of value if you cast it late versus RUG since they usually have a ton of cards in hand.

Thoughtseize -> very good idea. Problem: does not play very well with Stifle. No Problem if you playing BUG control.

Running 2 Basics in TA makes the deck overall a lot worse and wont bring an edge versus RUG. Life from the loam is of course very good!

Snapcastermage and Surgical: Also nice!
I suggest you gut Daze and play more lands to support that...
Welcome to BUG control. :laugh:

[Goddik]

Awesome initiative Catmint, it has been needed for awhile

[Koby]

Sinkhole ... not that good overall and does not bring a big advantage vs. RUG. You still have to tap out early to make sure you destroy lands before they play threats, which makes you vulnerable to Stifle and DAze. Hymn on the other hand has a lot of value if you cast it late versus RUG since they usually have a ton of cards in hand.

Thoughtseize -> very good idea. Problem: does not play very well with Stifle. No Problem if you playing BUG control.

Running 2 Basics in TA makes the deck overall a lot worse and wont bring an edge versus RUG. Life from the loam is of course very good!

Snapcastermage and Surgical: Also nice!
I suggest you gut Daze and play more lands to support that...
Welcome to BUG control. :laugh:

In TA, yes I would agree. However, I think BUG-caster would be better suited.

[wcm8]

Sinkhole has value by keeping games in the early-phase. I really think it would be hard for RUG to make use of Snapcaster when you're keeping them off of lands, and you can occasionally just completely mana screw them. Like stifle, it has highly variable quality, but on occasion it just wrecks opponents. Needs testing in the modern meta though.

Basic lands suck in this deck, refer to discussion on pg 1-3 of this threa if you really need explanation as to why.

The transition from Mongoose to Delver actually makes that matchup easier since you can more easily kill their one-drop threat. Snuff Out achieves this without any mana investment and let's you more effectively play around their dazes.

Like I said, going back to the classic list needs testing, but it's not as if those cards suddenly started sucking. If anything, I think the modern meta may be more susceptible to them.

[catmint]

I don't think you need Stifle or Sinkhole to keep them from casting a snapcaster mage.
They keep themselves from casting it very often. What I found most effective is thoughtseize and spell snare. Running spell snare versus the Snapcaster RUG lists targets only goyf and snapcaster, so if they have mongoose snare has to come out.

But again - I don't get how people can run Stifle and Thoughtseize in TA. These cards have a very bad synergy! (This is why classic TA did not run it). Now Thoughtseize is sooo good right now. And with snapcaster mage even more. But only if you run enough lands, so you don't have to waste your cantrips to find lands.

I know it is very tempting to run Stifle, because - yes - MM got banned and also RUG is very successful with Stifle and I also love to occassionally completely screw opponents. But if you look at the overall picture it is just not the way to go for the BUG colors. On the other hand look at RUG. RUG control has punishing fire and ... not a real synergy with snapcaster mage, because snapping back a bolt is not as good as snapping back a hymn or a thoughtseize. So the best RUG deck is the tempo version.

Besides the RUG matchup I spent a lot of thinking and testing on the maverick and merfolk matchup which I found very very hard to beat during all the time I played Team America. Since Snapcaster BUG can become a better version of deedstill postboard, I show up very reasonable results against those two very popular "Prey on BUG" decks.

Because of this development (that was not of course done by me: I was just netdecking som Snapcaster BUG lists and slowly learning it's potential), I started a new thread, to take a more visible step away from the "TA tempo deck" thinking.

Sorry for bringing this up a lot now here, but since the community is ignoring my thread, I am trying to convince...:smile:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22551-DECK-BUG-Control-%28Primer%29/page2

[wcm8]

Sinkhole was terrible in recent testing, back to the binder to rot it goes. Hymn is just much stronger overall.

[GtF]

Whoops, wish I had checked this thread more recently. I would have said that even in the original version I found sinkhole to be pretty bad (especially vs deck with daze) and only ran it briefly because there was no better alternative. Then they printed spell pierce and I ran that except for when mental misstep was legal. Currently I see no reason not to just go back to spell pierce - seems like it would give you an edge in those tempo matchups where you get into stifle/daze/bolt battles. Spell snare is nice vs. snapcaster but overall they really don't have many targets for it. I have always felt like snare just isn't good against cards that are problematic for team america, even if it is a good card in general.

I agree with catmint about the difference between BUG control and Team america, though not about which one is better ;]
Snapcaster is a huge incentive to move towards more lands and spells. I still haven't gotten to play with this card in legacy but if anything could get me to move towards bug control it's this card.
Ghastly demise also might be maindeckable in the current meta.
I sort of agree with the idea of going back to snuff out. The main reasons for dismember were dark confidant and tombstalker, both of which seem to be on the decline now.

Finally I don't really see how thoughtseize and stifle conflict. You don't have to thoughtseize turn 1, so you can still leave some mana open for stifle. In fact seize is often better turn 2-4.

[AggroSteve]

i would really prefer inquisition over thoughtseize, at least in this deck, since we allready got a lot of lifeloss with snuff out/ dismember, and we can handle 4cmc with counter as well, so i think thoughtseize is not that needed

[berry]

I too don't see the problem with Stifle + TS.

And people who say running basics and/or loam is not good against RUG Tempo should play some RUG Tempo against loam... I don't know if basics is good in TA, per say, but it's good vs RUG.

[bradstone]

Ran a build with delver this past Sunday and it was amazing. Sadly I went 3-2, losing by one point of damage to a snapcaster/delver burn deck in game 3, and lost to UW Visions in game 3 from mulling to 5 and getting only 1 land the entire game :frown:

3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Hymm to Tourach
2 Thoughtsieze
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Liliana of the Viel
2 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Perish
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Spell Pierce
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Krosan Grip

Its off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure that was the exact build. Every game I won I absolutely stomped them and the games I did lose were always super close.

On a sidenote, does anyone have a link to that UB tempo deck with snapcaster, tombstalker, and mental note that won a GP (I think) a little while ago?

[AggroSteve]

@ bradstone

i am very interested in your build, but i have one question: i was wondering why spell snare over spell pierce in the main, and why only 3 daze, and why only 3 hymn to tourach?

rest of the deck is pretty clear, and i love it^^

Use capitalization please. Thanks. -zilla

[bradstone]

@ bradstone

i am very interested in your build, but i have one question: i was wondering why spell snare over spell pierce in the main, and why only 3 daze, and why only 3 hymn to tourach?

rest of the deck is pretty clear, and i love it^^

Hymm definitely should have been a 4 of, and I'm really not sure why it wasn't. I think at the time I wanted more discard that showed me their hand, but the singleton IoK should be hymm #4. As for spell snare, it was just a card I really wanted to try out, but it actually worked amazingly. Keeping kids off lands with stifle/wasteland almost always forced them into my dazes/snares while delver produced a steady clock.
Personally, I don't believe 4 daze is always necessary, as long as you're able to dig them up with ponder/brainstorm. On that note however, the deck needs another ponder.

[Squirrel]

Last Sunday i played again with the list from my last post, but this time with -2 Inquisition -1 Maelstrom Pulse -1 Sylvan Library +4 Stifle

I really stomped Deadguy Ale and Merfolk and drawed against Stoneblade( in the last extra round i had Thrun out and he was at 6 life and no solutions.. so one more round...) and RUG Tempo (we only had 5 min for the last game) .

Both draws were also because i'm too slow with this deck sometimes.

I lost to Nic Fit (Explorer Rock). I really fear this deck. If they start with Explorer, next round cabal therapy there's no way to win... I simply don't have enough Stifles for this matchup.

About the decklist.. i would play one more Lili instead of the Edict and 4 Ponder.

Lili ist great against everyting because she forces aggro to attack her and destroys hands of the control and combo player and Ponder just let the deck work better.
Also i think cutting a Wasteland isn't a good idea.

Hymn and Daze are freaking good in this deck, I never want less than 4

So, any idea against the RUG Tempo decks and the Nic Fit decks? My Area is full of those decks.

[catmint]

Squirrel, I suppose by "stomping merfolk" you mean that you won a match where you had a good draw and your opponent a bad one (and probably made some mistakes), because the Merfolk matchup is and will always be a terrible one for Team America.

How to bet RUG Tempo... well I think RUG is a better tempo deck than TA and has a slight edge, because they have more removal and reach to the dome for the last points of damage in the race. In terms of cards you can run: pointed discard and of course Loam is very powerful. Pointed discard does not have an optimal synergy in TA, which is why it is often cut...

If you want to have a real edge over RUG (especially the new breed without nimble mongoose) you have to
1) play a lot of lands
2) play a lot of removal
3) play pointed discard + hymn
4) have a better late game with snapcaster mage & jace

Lists and advise for that can be found in the thread which is certainly more DTB than TA: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22551-DECK-BUG-Control/page4

[wcm8]

I have been testing two builds of TA that seem to be just about equally successful, but with some variations that alter the way they tend to play out.

Here's the core of the deck that is consistent in both:
20 Lands (9 fetch, 7 duals, 4 wastes)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Maelstrom Pulse (arguable, but has always been great for me)

Here's where they diverge:

Aggressive Tempo Build:
4 Spell Pierce
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snuff Out

Midrange Control Build:
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

In the aggressive version, we are looking to close out games as quickly as possible, hence the 4 Delvers. Snuff Out is free removal, and we are less concerned with our life total and of course aren't going to be flashing it back. Spell Pierce supports this strategy by shielding your creatures from removal long enough to deal 20 damage, whereas Hymn tends to push games more into the mid-to-late game and isn't always guaranteed to hit the Swords to Plowshares in opponent's hands. This version is easily capable of racing aggro decks, and still has game vs. combo and control. Given the lower curve, this build could also probably run on 18-19 lands and fit in a few more utility cards -- however I have not tested this and have liked the consistency and fewer mulligans that 20 lands gives.

The first version is pretty much black Canadian Thresh, and perhaps the reach granted by Lightning Bolt is worth it and this should just be RUG... However, Snuff Out has just been insane in testing, and Tombstalker is a fantastic finisher. Also, black SB options are pretty crucial in some matchups.

The midrange version still plays pretty similarly, but its ideal goal is to cripple the opponent's hand via playing a turn 2 Hymn and sometimes even flashing Hymn back on turn 4. Snapcaster provides a source of card advantage, and the removal options reflect its inclusion. This version typically goes into the later game, and has a few bombs to assist with that -- Liliana and Sylvan Library (which should possibly go in the first build as well). This version is a bit of a hybrid between traditional TA lists and BUG control (which I find to be usually too slow), and has a higher curve. I've done well with this list in real life tournament settings, but with Spell Snare being so common, I'm not so sure if leaning on Hymn and Snapcaster is such a great idea.

Of course, both decks can transform themselves somewhat with the SB and fight whatever it is your opponent is throwing at you.

[blacklotus3636]

I just finished 4th with this deck at a large 34 person tourney in Texas with this deck but I chose skinshifter over tarmogoyf for synergy and overall utility. I was hoping to have a discussion about the merits of skinshifter vs. tarmogoyf. This is from my tournament report discussing skinshifter:

I know its somewhat radical not to run tarmogoyf but I ask that every skeptic test it in this build and then try it in every other deck running tarmogoyf to see each has its pro's and con's. The way I evaluate the difference between the two is on three basic criteria:
1. How a creature deals with removal in the environment
A: Both tarmogoyf and skinshifter die to STP and black removal while skinshifter is worse in dealing with burn
2. How much damage it does
A: In the early game skinshifter deals more damage because he gets bigger faster. In the mid-game tarmogoyf and skinshifter are about even with skinshifter being a 4/4 trampler and tarmogoyf being a 4/5. Then in the late game if you have an artifact, enchantment or planeswalker in your graveyard then it may be a little bigger than skinshifter but throughout the tournament I seldom ever saw an artifact, enchantment or planewalker in the yard.
3. Versatility
A: Tarmogoyf is graveyard dependent while skinshifter is green mana dependent. In most instances Tarmogoyf would have been slower than skinshifter for reasons mentioned above and there was and still is alot of graveyard hate out there. Against problematic matchups with large creatures the wall effect on skinshifter was useful and bought me a few turns whereas a tarmogoyf would have just chump blocked. Also being able to fly was helpful in killing transformed delvers and vendilion cliques. The green mana was killer sometimes because people hit my green mana sources when stripping my mana base but it does help draw fire away from the black mana which is alot more of what the deck needs

Overall I feel that in general they are very similar cards with their own strengths and weaknesses but with the bad synergy between tarmogoyf and tombstalker I feel that skinshifter is a no-brainer in Team America. I think that skinshifter could be better than tarmogoyf in general but that is a far bolder statement that will take a lot of playtesting to change but in terms of personal experience I go with skinshifter.

[Jeff]

I don't think Skinshifter is even close. Trample is nice, but what version of Team America are you playing that Tarmogoyf doesn't come down as a 3/4? Usually by the time I can play Tarmogoyf, there's a land, sorcery, and instant in the yard, and often I'll have killed or countered a creature, so he'll be a 4/5. Given that, I just don't see the advantage of having Skinshifter. The negative synergy between him and Tombstalker simply isn't as big of a deal as having a creature you have to constantly spend mana on, and can easily get killed by all the lightning bolts and chain lightnings around.

The strength of Team America has always been in maximizing your mana and playing spells with no mana. Go back to the original which ran 8 free counterspells and 4 free removal spells. Now you're suggesting a card that requires you to keep green mana open. Green is already the 3rd most important color in the deck, now you want to keep one untapped all the time to protect against chain lightning. If you want to play offense, now you need green on your turn to attack and green on their turn to defend. It's just not worth it.

[blacklotus3636]

Instead of thinking about it try it out. Tarmogoyf didn't look all that great either until people starting working him into some decks and seeing how good he was. I'm asking you to give that same treatment to skinshifter.

[Jeff]

I'm not saying this from a vacuum. I've played a LOT of Team America, and I've played skinshifter in cube and in standard. I'm well aware of how the card plays, and what kind of commitment he requires to continue getting effective use out of him.

Beyond that, this is a horrible time to be playing something that dies to bolt. Lavamancer is everywhere, as is Chain. Why wouldn't you play something that comes down with 4 toughness most of the time?

[baghdadbob]

I agree with blacklotus. From my playtesting in my thresh deck I have replaced my 4x mongoose for 4x Skinrender. The card is THAT good. I think with more playtesting the community will agree. The only time that goose is better is versus a deck in which you are already even with.

[Esper3k]

I agree with blacklotus. From my playtesting in my thresh deck I have replaced my 4x mongoose for 4x Skinrender. The card is THAT good. I think with more playtesting the community will agree. The only time that goose is better is versus a deck in which you are already even with.

Mongoose is pretty amazing against decks that run a lot of pinpoint removal as well or decks that are Snapcastering back things like StP.

That being said, I thought Mongoose is rarely played in Team America anyways?

[bradstone]

I agree with blacklotus. From my playtesting in my thresh deck I have replaced my 4x mongoose for 4x Skinrender. The card is THAT good. I think with more playtesting the community will agree. The only time that goose is better is versus a deck in which you are already even with.

He said skinshifter, not skinrender.

Regarding skinshifter, that card is insanely worse than goyf. You literally don't want to have to commit mana to a creature aside from playing it. Goyf comes out and immediately puts on a clock or is a wall for Jace and this is all the deck wants from its creatures. Skinshifter is also horrible with bolt/lavamancer being played in all these RUG decks, which was mentioned before. If you swing with a skinshifter and attempt to pump him, they just bolt in response and he dies. Goyf is just strictly better in the TA shell.

[wcm8]

I am all for testing new things, but Skinshifter really does not belong in the deck.

The core creatures:
Tarmogoyf
Tombstalker

Utility -options-:
Snapcaster Mage
Vendilion Clique

Possible inclusions, that veer towards considering it a different deck altogether:
Dark Confidant
Delver of Secrets
Terravore
Nimble Mongoose

SB trump:
Thrun, the Last Troll
Scavenging Ooze
Sower of Temptation
Bitterblossom

Outdated/outmoded:
Werebear
Quirion Dryad
Serendib Efreet
Benthic Djinn
Lorescale Coatl
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Possessed Aven
Hypnotic Specter
Sea Drake
Nantuko Shade

I'm sorry, but Skinshifter is bad. Mono-green decks don't even play it. I'm not sure why it's even under consideration when there are many better options.

[TheRedBaron]

I piloted TA to 4-0.

W2-1 vs. U/W Blade
W2-0 vs. B/G Infect
W2-0 vs. Reanimator
W2-0 vs. MonoB Liliana-rack

The reanimator match I was worried about, but Stifle+Wasteland got me the game 1 victory, game 2 I boarded into LotV + Diabolic Edicts.

Stifle got me key plays vs. both JTMS and Liliana, protecting my Stalker/Goyfs at times.

I also went with 1 MD Deed over 1 MD Pulse, though I know Pulse slightly more synergistic with Delvers

This is the build I wound up with:
3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ponder
1 Pernicious Deed

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
2 Dismember
1 Go For The Throat

3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta

//board
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Definite changes I'll make...
-2 spell snare
-1 Bayou

+1 Daze
+1 Stifle
+1 Fetch

Considering...
-1 Dismember
+1 Snuff Out/Ghastly Demise

-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Reanimate

Possibly 1 Snapcaster MD.

[jandax]

Coming from the standpoint of BUG control than TA, what disadvantage does Snapcaster have against TA? I mean I get the original premise of the deck and how it has evolved to present but there's something I'm missing to really understand what's going on.

[TheRedBaron]

Coming from the standpoint of BUG control than TA, what disadvantage does Snapcaster have against TA? I mean I get the original premise of the deck and how it has evolved to present but there's something I'm missing to really understand what's going on.

well, TA is known for low mana curve. To truelu abuse snapcaster, it ups your mana curve fairly.

plus you drop Goyf or delver or most probably tombstalker(non-synergistic with Tiago). So it decreases your win clock. You also have to change around your counters as Daze is not quite the best in that slot with snapcaster.

IMO. adding snapcaster makes it more BUG midrange instead of TA.

[catmint]

BUG control already showing 3 good finishes in december with 0 on TA side.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7262&iddeck=52853
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7268&iddeck=52889
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7265&iddeck=52870

Not a lot of people picking BUG up I think with UGR Tempo beeing the easier choice.

Don't be a fool and think the classic TA tempo is a DTB!!! This thread beeing in the DTB section is a result of lazy guys at tcdecks and unfortunately also at thesource.

If you look at it honestly (I think) neither BUG control nor TA would be a DTB according to the DTB selection rules. But since both decks are just put together in 1 pot, TA is seen as a DTB altough is is clearly much weaker than BUG control, since the matchups versus the 3 DTB (Maverick, UGR Tempo and UW Stoneblade) are significantly better with BUG control!

My message to all discard lovers. Pick up some lands and snapcaster mages and leave out the stifle/Daze to get an edge over tempo and control!http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22551-DECK-BUG-Control

btw: Good Analysis about snapcaster RedBaron.
A not important side note concerning naming. Why do you say BUG Midrange. Isn't the definition of Midrange "setup to out-trump your opponent", while Control beeing "handle opponents threats until you can take over". If that is correct than snapcaster BUG plays like control and not midrange!

[TheRedBaron]

BUG control already showing 3 good finishes in december with 0 on TA side.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7262&iddeck=52853
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7268&iddeck=52889
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7265&iddeck=52870

Not a lot of people picking BUG up I think with UGR Tempo beeing the easier choice.

Don't be a fool and think the classic TA tempo is a DTB!!! This thread beeing in the DTB section is a result of lazy guys at tcdecks and unfortunately also at thesource.

If you look at it honestly (I think) neither BUG control nor TA would be a DTB according to the DTB selection rules. But since both decks are just put together in 1 pot, TA is seen as a DTB altough is is clearly much weaker than BUG control, since the matchups versus the 3 DTB (Maverick, UGR Tempo and UW Stoneblade) are significantly better with BUG control!

My message to all discard lovers. Pick up some lands and snapcaster mages and leave out the stifle/Daze to get an edge over tempo and control!http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22551-DECK-BUG-Control

btw: Good Analysis about snapcaster RedBaron.
A not important side note concerning naming. Why do you say BUG Midrange. Isn't the definition of Midrange "setup to out-trump your opponent", while Control beeing "handle opponents threats until you can take over". If that is correct than snapcaster BUG plays like control and not midrange!

I agree with what you are saying. It's just my personal preference. Control Really isn't my style. I may run 1-2 snapcaster as a utility card, but I'm keeping it tempo.

I have played against RUG and U/W blade lately. I had no problems beating the decks. Snapcaster makes it too slow for me.

IMO, I think the reason why this deck isn't DTB is because people jumped on the Snapcaster Bandwagon too much. I believe too many people are forcing snapcaster into decks where it doesn't belong. Like Team America. Snapcaster is very limited, great card? yes. Belongs in every U deck? No.

There is a guy in my meta, for instance, straight up net-decked one of those versions. He went 2-2, got crushed by Tendrils and some other deck he should beat. I make my delver version (same meta) and only lose 1 game. I know its hard to judge off of local metas, but we have no clue what those big tournanment metas were either. It was probably mostly RUG, UR DElver, and some stoneforge variant, rest aggro, if i had to guess.

I think more or less, there aren't many people playin "Classic TA" the numbers aren't there, but that doesn't mean the deck isn't viable.

[blacklotus3636]

@Catmint
I think its dumb to say that a more controllive version of BUG is strictly better. Leaving out stifle and daze in my meta which is predominantly combo would be a terrible decision. Of the 8 matches I played 5 were combo. In these matches stifle, daze and hymn were an absolute beating. I think decks like these are meant to be tailored for where you are and what you think will show up. Stick with that line of thinking rather than generalizations.

About the DTB crap:
Legacy is a VERY wide open format. If you wanted to run a true gauntlet of all the decks that are Tier 1 or likely to be played you'll be testing a very long time. Its simply not possible to have a deck that would do well against a field that wide. You make a decision about what you think will be played, you pick a deck thats good against that and take your shot at the tournament roulette wheel.
In regards to TA being a DTB it doesn't really matter to me because the whole idea of DTB is flawed on its face. It takes into account some tournament data but not others, it fails to account for region, it fails to account for deck variance and on and on. DTB is just a simple tool to see what people are talking about right now and gives you an idea of things you may want to play. Magic at its most basic is about geography and culture.

[TheRedBaron]

@Catmint
I think its dumb to say that a more controllive version of BUG is strictly better. Leaving out stifle and daze in my meta which is predominantly combo would be a terrible decision. Of the 8 matches I played 5 were combo. In these matches stifle, daze and hymn were an absolute beating. I think decks like these are meant to be tailored for where you are and what you think will show up. Stick with that line of thinking rather than generalizations.

About the DTB crap:
Legacy is a VERY wide open format. If you wanted to run a true gauntlet of all the decks that are Tier 1 or likely to be played you'll be testing a very long time. Its simply not possible to have a deck that would do well against a field that wide. You make a decision about what you think will be played, you pick a deck thats good against that and take your shot at the tournament roulette wheel.
In regards to TA being a DTB it doesn't really matter to me because the whole idea of DTB is flawed on its face. It takes into account some tournament data but not others, it fails to account for region, it fails to account for deck variance and on and on. DTB is just a simple tool to see what people are talking about right now and gives you an idea of things you may want to play. Magic at its most basic is about geography and culture.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Some places in Europe are known to be heavy combo, just as my Meta. This meta is probably totally different than say: Las vegas, which seemed to be mostly RUG from that Starcity a couple months back. You can even Stifle opponents snapcaster. TA is a totally different concept that straight control.

I have stifled both a JTMS-bounce and Liliana-Edict the last tournanment. I see no problems with running Stifle + thoughtseize in the same deck.

Wasteland is also better with stifle, as well as stifle being used to protect your mana base. TA's nature means it has a VERY fragile mana base. Time and time again, Stifle wins me so many games.

Stifle + Hymn is really why this deck works IMO.

[wcm8]

The line is blurred when it comes to decks running the color combinations of UBG. They all make use of Tarmogoyf (even a lot of pure-control Deedstill lists can have it and a few other beaters in the SB), Discard (either Hymn or Thoughtseize/Inquisition, or a combination of the two), FoW/Brainstorm, and black removal.

It's like a spectrum of decks:
Dark Thresh - - - Team America - - - BUG Control - - - Deedstill

Dark Thresh is pure tempo, with an emphasis on the early game. It runs the fewest lands of the bunch, and typically relies on Dark Confidant as one of its secondary creatures to help refill its hand. Nimble Mongoose and Delver of Secrets are additional options. This deck typically doesn't run midrange cards like Hymn. The main argument against running this deck is that it's somewhat like a worse version of Canadian Thresh -- red might be the better splash color right now since its removal serves double duty as reach and REB/Pyroblast are pretty amazing SB options.

Team America is still a quick tempo deck. Like DT, TA utilizes Daze and Stifle as two of its main forms of disruption, and Ponder to aid in card selection. However, it drops Confidant in favor of Tombstalker and a few other strong higher-CMC spells. I personally feel that this is the best utilization of UBG in Legacy, based on my experiences playing all of the variations of the color combination. I see it as the most balanced option going into an unknown field since it has a strong chance against most archetypes, whereas the other decks seem more geared towards beating a particular metagame.

BUG Control is where we start seeing a drop in Ponder, Daze, and Stifle in favor of more midrange and lategame cards such as maindeck Jace TMS. We also see more targeted discard, a higher land count and higher curve, and more late-game inevitability. The problem I see with this build is that it lacks the density of early game interaction that the other two decks have, and often loses to an aggressive start from the opponent if it doesn't draw into the correct sequence of answers.

Deedstill is the most controlling deck of the bunch, with virtually no maindeck creatures and utilization of maindeck Pernicious Deed to gain card advantage. It then uses something like Standstill or Ancestral Visions to replenish its hand. It has the most inevitability, but the problem is surviving into the lategame. The banning of Mental Misstep and subsequent speeding-up of the format really hurt this deck in my opinion. Snapcaster Mage is such a strong card for UBG Control that I'm not sure if going creatureless is so justifiable these days... However, in certain metagames it may be the best choice of the bunch -- but I would personally not feel comfortable bringing it into an unknown field.

Since it is a spectrum of decks, there are decks inbetween each of the four points. For example, the Team America builds that were running 22 lands and 2 Jace TMS in the maindeck veer towards being considered BUG Control, but still play Stifle/Daze.

That's just my take on the archetypes.

[TheRedBaron]

The line is blurred when it comes to decks running the color combinations of UBG. They all make use of Tarmogoyf (even a lot of pure-control Deedstill lists can have it and a few other beaters in the SB), Discard (either Hymn or Thoughtseize/Inquisition, or a combination of the two), FoW/Brainstorm, and black removal.

It's like a spectrum of decks:
Dark Thresh - - - Team America - - - BUG Control - - - Deedstill

Dark Thresh is pure tempo, with an emphasis on the early game. It runs the fewest lands of the bunch, and typically relies on Dark Confidant as one of its secondary creatures to help refill its hand. Nimble Mongoose and Delver of Secrets are additional options. This deck typically doesn't run midrange cards like Hymn. The main argument against running this deck is that it's somewhat like a worse version of Canadian Thresh -- red might be the better splash color right now since its removal serves double duty as reach and REB/Pyroblast are pretty amazing SB options.

Team America is still a quick tempo deck. Like DT, TA utilizes Daze and Stifle as two of its main forms of disruption, and Ponder to aid in card selection. However, it drops Confidant in favor of Tombstalker and a few other strong higher-CMC spells. I personally feel that this is the best utilization of UBG in Legacy, based on my experiences playing all of the variations of the color combination. I see it as the most balanced option going into an unknown field since it has a strong chance against most archetypes, whereas the other decks seem more geared towards beating a particular metagame.

BUG Control is where we start seeing a drop in Ponder, Daze, and Stifle in favor of more midrange and lategame cards such as maindeck Jace TMS. We also see more targeted discard, a higher land count and higher curve, and more late-game inevitability. The problem I see with this build is that it lacks the density of early game interaction that the other two decks have, and often loses to an aggressive start from the opponent if it doesn't draw into the correct sequence of answers.

Deedstill is the most controlling deck of the bunch, with virtually no maindeck creatures and utilization of maindeck Pernicious Deed to gain card advantage. It then uses something like Standstill or Ancestral Visions to replenish its hand. It has the most inevitability, but the problem is surviving into the lategame. The banning of Mental Misstep and subsequent speeding-up of the format really hurt this deck in my opinion. Snapcaster Mage is such a strong card for UBG Control that I'm not sure if going creatureless is so justifiable these days... However, in certain metagames it may be the best choice of the bunch -- but I would personally not feel comfortable bringing it into an unknown field.

Since it is a spectrum of decks, there are decks inbetween each of the four points. For example, the Team America builds that were running 22 lands and 2 Jace TMS in the maindeck veer towards being considered BUG Control, but still play Stifle/Daze.

That's just my take on the archetypes.

Excellent Descriptions, I feel that Liliana is pushing the mana curve a bit in TA, much less JTMS. That is pretty accurate to the way I feel.

When you start adding snapcasters, JTMS, etc, you really need 22+ Lands, drop the daze/stifle/hymn, add IoK/Duress, 1CMC counterspells... It's almost an entirely different deck.

[catmint]

@Catmint
I think its dumb to say that a more controllive version of BUG is strictly better. Leaving out stifle and daze in my meta which is predominantly combo would be a terrible decision. Of the 8 matches I played 5 were combo. In these matches stifle, daze and hymn were an absolute beating. I think decks like these are meant to be tailored for where you are and what you think will show up. Stick with that line of thinking rather than generalizations.

Strictly better is a strong word, but playing a lot of TA and BUG control I would say it is strictly better. Your argument that TA is stronger versus combo is not valid imo.
BUG control crushes Combo the same way or even more than TA. I play maindeck:
2 Toughtseize, 2 Inquisition, 4 hymn
4 FoW, 3 Spell Snare, 1 Spell Pierce
4 snapcaster mage which is discard/counter/brainstorm + wincon!
Goyf for the clock.

True the clock is not as strong as running more creatures, but snapcaster mage adds a lot of "double disruption", to make up for the shorter clock.

However the discussion which deck is better versus combo is irrelvant, because both decks crush it. Therefore I would look at other matchups to evaluate which Deck is better!!!


The line is blurred when it comes to decks running the color combinations of UBG. They all make use of Tarmogoyf (even a lot of pure-control Deedstill lists can have it and a few other beaters in the SB), Discard (either Hymn or Thoughtseize/Inquisition, or a combination of the two), FoW/Brainstorm, and black removal.

It's like a spectrum of decks:
Dark Thresh - - - Team America - - - BUG Control - - - Deedstill
...


Nice analysis. Wrote some of that also in the BUG primer altough I was not aware of "Dark *****".



BUG Control is where we start seeing a drop in Ponder, Daze, and Stifle in favor of more midrange and lategame cards such as maindeck Jace TMS. We also see more targeted discard, a higher land count and higher curve, and more late-game inevitability. The problem I see with this build is that it lacks the density of early game interaction that the other two decks have, and often loses to an aggressive start from the opponent if it doesn't draw into the correct sequence of answers.

I was crushed a lot by aggressive decks playing TA and I don't agree to TA having a better early game. TA runs Daze and Stifle. Compare that to Thougthseize and Spell Snare. Which cards do have a higher chance of making a difference versus aggressive decks?

Also: what is best versus aggressive decks is Snapcaster Mage and Pernicious Deed. Both cards that need more lands and have a bad synergy with Daze.

TA can either try to race or be worse version of BUG control post board.



Since it is a spectrum of decks, there are decks inbetween each of the four points. For example, the Team America builds that were running 22 lands and 2 Jace TMS in the maindeck veer towards being considered BUG Control, but still play Stifle/Daze.


There is a lot of inbetween going on, but i feel it is often weak deck design to have cards that support a different gameplan or have a bad synergy.


Anyway.
Thanks for the good response! I am aware that my post was a little bit provoking, but I wanted to get a discussion going. After the MM banning I was so fired up to play stifle again, neglegting snapcaster mage, because of the bad synergy in TA. But after playing tiago, I wanted to build the best deck for it. BUG consists of Discard, Counter, Brainstorm, Removal & Wincondition. Snapcaster is all of it and gives so much redundancy that I think BUG is the best snapcaster deck out there!

[Vandalize]

Strictly better is a strong word, but playing a lot of TA and BUG control I would say it is strictly better. Your argument that TA is stronger versus combo is not valid imo.
BUG control crushes Combo the same way or even more than TA. I play maindeck:
2 Toughtseize, 2 Inquisition, 4 hymn
4 FoW, 3 Spell Snare, 1 Spell Pierce
4 snapcaster mage which is discard/counter/brainstorm + wincon!
Goyf for the clock.

True the clock is not as strong as running more creatures, but snapcaster mage adds a lot of "double disruption", to make up for the shorter clock.

However the discussion which deck is better versus combo is irrelvant, because both decks crush it. Therefore I would look at other matchups to evaluate which Deck is better!!!



Nice analysis. Wrote some of that also in the BUG primer altough I was not aware of "Dark *****".


I was crushed a lot by aggressive decks playing TA and I don't agree to TA having a better early game. TA runs Daze and Stifle. Compare that to Thougthseize and Spell Snare. Which cards do have a higher chance of making a difference versus aggressive decks?

Also: what is best versus aggressive decks is Snapcaster Mage and Pernicious Deed. Both cards that need more lands and have a bad synergy with Daze.

TA can either try to race or be worse version of BUG control post board.



There is a lot of inbetween going on, but i feel it is often weak deck design to have cards that support a different gameplan or have a bad synergy.


Anyway.
Thanks for the good response! I am aware that my post was a little bit provoking, but I wanted to get a discussion going. After the MM banning I was so fired up to play stifle again, neglegting snapcaster mage, because of the bad synergy in TA. But after playing tiago, I wanted to build the best deck for it. BUG consists of Discard, Counter, Brainstorm, Removal & Wincondition. Snapcaster is all of it and gives so much redundancy that I think BUG is the best snapcaster deck out there!

Good job pointing out the main differences from the BUG archtype.

Still, BUG control is boring like my grandma's birthday party to play with, and Team America uses Stifle and Tombstalker, which are the most awsome cards ever.

[catmint]

Good job pointing out the main differences from the BUG archtype.

Still, BUG control is boring like my grandma's birthday party to play with, and Team America uses Stifle and Tombstalker, which are the most awsome cards ever.

can't say anything against the most awesome arguments ever.

[Esper3k]

Yeah BUG control is probably the overall stronger version and GFTT / Dismember really make Tombstalker sad, but man I still love playing that guy.

I think Delver has really helped balance out the deck getting weaker (due to Tombstalker getting weaker)

[TheRedBaron]

can't say anything against the most awesome arguments ever.

Yep, Snapcaster is strong, Not denying BUG control is strong... I just... can't... play... control... Sooo Boring...

I love:
Turn 1 > Stifle Fetch/delver/thoughtseize
Turn 2 > Hymn/goyf
turn 3 > Goyf/Delver/tombstlker... most of time another Hymn or cantrip + thoughtseize FoW Daze backup
Turn 4/5 Put opponent on clock

[wcm8]

Based on my 'spectrum' analysis of UBG in Legacy, my current build is somewhat closer to the Control side of things, with the X being where I think my deck would fit in this model.

Dark Thresh - - - Team America - X - - BUG Control - - - Deedstill

I am running a few more higher CMC spells in the maindeck than classic builds, and added an extra land to help compensate [if you're feeling greedy/lucky, you can try cutting the 2nd Bayou for the 3rd Snapcaster]:

21 Lands (4 Waste, 4 Sea, 2 Trop, 2 Bayou, 9 Fetch)
4 Tarmo
3 Tombs
2 Snapcaster
4 FoW
4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Hymn
2 Dismember
1 GftT
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

The SB is in constant flux, though there are a few cards I always play:
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Spell Pierce and/or Thoughtsieze (I mix it up depending on what I think may be better for the day)
2 Jace, TMS

The reality of the situation though is that in games 2 and 3, I can adjust the deck to fit into a more controlling OR aggressive role, depending on the matchup. In fact, with 3 Pernicious Deeds, 2 Jace and other removal in the SB, the deck almost gears itself all the way towards the rightside and plays a lot like Deedstill when it is prudent to do so. I am also thinking that it may actually make sense to have more cards in the sideboard to shift the approach to the left side of the spectrum in certain matchups.

This is the heart of the matter, and why UBG is such a strong archetype. It has sideboards options that enable it to adapt to almost every matchup, and some of these cards are just complete and utter blow-outs against certain decks. Take for example Pernicious Deed against Affinity, Massacre/Perish against Maverick, Jace against midrange strategies. Many other color combinations don't have the array of options that UBG grants, and the adaptability is what makes it perform consistently well. Add to that that it crushes most combo decks in game 1 (wheras a lot of other control decks have trouble before sideboarding, eg: UW Stoneblade), and you have a serious tournament performer.

The question really becomes, what configuration gives you the best game 1 against the current legacy field (since we can alter the deck significantly in games 2 and 3 to meet most challenges)? My belief is that remaining aggressive but with some strong mid and late game bombs and enough filtering to find them is going to provide the best angle of attack. I think Stifle, Daze and Ponder enable this strategy the best right now. Even if you think that BUG isn't the best color combination to utilize the tempo angle, you can't deny the current success of Canadian Thresh which plays a -lot- like Team America in the first several turns.

[catmint]

The reality of the situation though is that in games 2 and 3, I can adjust the deck to fit into a more controlling OR aggressive role, depending on the matchup. In fact, with 3 Pernicious Deeds, 2 Jace and other removal in the SB, the deck almost gears itself all the way towards the rightside and plays a lot like Deedstill when it is prudent to do so. I am also thinking that it may actually make sense to have more cards in the sideboard to shift the approach to the left side of the spectrum in certain matchups.


I agree... you need to transform regularly into a control deck. Can't deny though that it is not optimal to run 21 lands for Jace and deed. Also due to lack of sideboard space, you cant run 24 lands, 8 removal spells, 4 snapcaster, 4 pointed discard, 3 spell snare & 3 spell pierce to support the jace/deed plan in an optimal way and will therefore keep on loosing to merfolk, maverick,...



Even if you think that BUG isn't the best color combination to utilize the tempo angle, you can't deny the current success of Canadian Thresh which plays a -lot- like Team America in the first several turns.

I totally agree. And I have always been saying canadian is the better tempo deck. Running TA is like running some suboptimal 2 card combo deck instead of painted stone, because of "liking it". That's ok, but not competitive. BUG having the best synvergy with snapcaster is better on the control side and competes with UW Stoneblade for the best control option.

[GtF]

I like the spectrum analogy, it clears up a lot of the confusion about the different archetypes.

Wcm8, I've been thinking (all theoretical) that a 4 goyf, 3 stalker, 2 snapcaster configuration could be pretty good, as even before snapcaster, running 4 tombstalker was awkward sometimes when you drew three of them, but there wasn't anything that was good enough to replace it. Snapcaster might be good enough. How have you found that to be so far? Have you had problems with the interaction of removing cards in your graveyard to pay for tombstalker and having the right targets when you play snapcaster mage?

[wcm8]

I agree... you need to transform regularly into a control deck. Can't deny though that it is not optimal to run 21 lands for Jace and deed. Also due to lack of sideboard space, you cant run 24 lands, 8 removal spells, 4 snapcaster, 4 pointed discard, 3 spell snare & 3 spell pierce to support the jace/deed plan in an optimal way and will therefore keep on loosing to merfolk, maverick,...


I totally agree. And I have always been saying canadian is the better tempo deck. Running TA is like running some suboptimal 2 card combo deck instead of painted stone, because of "liking it". That's ok, but not competitive. BUG having the best synvergy with snapcaster is better on the control side and competes with UW Stoneblade for the best control option.

For your first point, why would I want to do that? With the help of cantrips I can reliably find four lands in the matchups where casting Jace matters. And then I can AVOID getting mana flooded thanks to the lower land count and aforemention filter cards, which in Legacy is often just as bad as getting mana-screwed. Guess what -- Jace isn't the be-all, end-all in tons of matchups. In fact, he is a huge liability and often a dead draw in a metagame full of Canadian Thresh and similarly fast threats. 20/21 lands (PLUS the cantrips, PLUS the stifles/Daze to protect them from wastelands) is enough to reliably land your huge bombs like Deed or Jace when they actually matter -- in sideboarded games against decks where they are actually useful.

I agree that right now Canadian is better than Dark Thresh as far as pure tempo strategies go. But to generalize and say it's better than TA is missing the notable differences between the two decks. Hymn to Tourach is just such a huge beating -- this card basically says 'target n00b takes two mulligans' -- which can be utterly devastating/game-winning and justifies dropping red for black. And Tombstalker is a legitimate clock at every point in the game, wheras Delver becomes pretty underwhelming as the game goes longer. TA also has a better game 1 against most combo and control decks than Canadian.

You know what else is utterly devastating and game winning? Stifling the opponents first land and dazing their first actual threat. Combine these two angles of attack, and very few decks can recover in time to answer your huge monster. Ponder makes employing this strategy much more consistent and reliable.

I don't care about which deck in a vacuum is the better control deck. I also don't care that faced against each other, BUG Control might actually have a slight edge against TA. What I do care about is winning tournaments and playing a deck that is good against the current field. And for me and my [perceived] metagame, TA accomplishes this better than some durdling control deck with a higher curve.

[wcm8]

I like the spectrum analogy, it clears up a lot of the confusion about the different archetypes.

Wcm8, I've been thinking (all theoretical) that a 4 goyf, 3 stalker, 2 snapcaster configuration could be pretty good, as even before snapcaster, running 4 tombstalker was awkward sometimes when you drew three of them, but there wasn't anything that was good enough to replace it. Snapcaster might be good enough. How have you found that to be so far? Have you had problems with the interaction of removing cards in your graveyard to pay for tombstalker and having the right targets when you play snapcaster mage?

I've extensively tested a mix of 4 Tombstalker/2 Snapcaster, 2 Tomb/4 Snap, 3/3, and 3Tomb /2 Snap. (And of course I did a lot of testing back with the classic mix of only 4 Tomb/4 Goyf).

I think the best configuration is either 3/3 (20 lands) or 3/2 (21 lands). If you're going with 3/3 and 20 lands, you may want to run less 3 drops like I do, but I find Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana to be amazing singletons.

The problem with synergy between Tombstalker and Snapcaster very rarely comes up, especially if you are intelligent with your delving choices. Because we don't play LftL (at least in the maindeck), there's no harm in delving away your fetch/wastelands. And if your opponent is already in topdeck mode, there's no need to leave Hymn sitting in the graveyard. Mostly you are just interested in keeping Stifle (if they're land light) and removal as targets.

You want to see Tombstalker every game, but not in multiples early on. Three is the correct number to achieve this. As for Snapcaster, he fills the utility role and can go in for the last few points of damage/increase your clock. But he is a dead draw in the first few turns and is more of a way to break parity and gain the advantage in the mid-to-late game. Obviously the most devastating play is flashing back a Hymn to Tourach on turn 4. However, this is a play that you would build towards and not always go for every game -- you can use Brainstorm and Ponder to set it up, but it's not always optimal.

[catmint]

For your first point, why would I want to do that? With the help of cantrips I can reliably find four lands in the matchups where casting Jace matters. And then I can AVOID getting mana flooded thanks to the lower land count and aforemention filter cards, which in Legacy is often just as bad as getting mana-screwed. Guess what -- Jace isn't the be-all, end-all in tons of matchups. In fact, he is a huge liability and often a dead draw in a metagame full of Canadian Thresh and similarly fast threats. 20/21 lands (PLUS the cantrips, PLUS the stifles/Daze to protect them from wastelands) is enough to reliably land your huge bombs like Deed or Jace when they actually matter -- in sideboarded games against decks where they are actually useful.

I think it is a misconception to say "I can reach the late game easily with cantrips" and therefore do not need more lands. It requires you to use your mana and brings you also in situations where you do not get the full value out of brainstorm. But I dont want you to run more lands in TA. My point was that the games where the postboard plan "board control" with deed/jace matters, TA ansforms to a worse version of BUG.

Also you made some strange points:
1) You protect your lands from wastelands with daze? ... how? plus daze is bad for the late game plan because you are set back the land drop!

2) The matchups we are talking about (like Merfolk & Maverick) stifle hopefully goes to the board, because you said youself it is about board control. So you cant protect your lands from the opponents wasteland.

Calling Jace a liability is true for TA. In the right deck he is most of the time the "be all and all". And in cretaure matchups where you constantly trade 1:1 (and 2:1 with snappy) he and deed is the best way to get ahead.




I agree that right now Canadian is better than Dark Thresh as far as pure tempo strategies go. But to generalize and say it's better than TA is missing the notable differences between the two decks. Hymn to Tourach is just such a huge beating -- this card basically says 'target n00b takes two mulligans' -- which can be utterly devastating/game-winning and justifies dropping red for black. And Tombstalker is a legitimate clock at every point in the game, wheras Delver becomes pretty underwhelming as the game goes longer. TA also has a better game 1 against most combo and control decks than Canadian.


I agree. If you know you play mostly combo, TA is better than Canadian. However, even in the combo-heaviest meta you will face something else...



I don't care about which deck in a vacuum is the better control deck. I also don't care that faced against each other, BUG Control might actually have a slight edge against TA. What I do care about is winning tournaments and playing a deck that is good against the current field. And for me and my [perceived] metagame, TA accomplishes this better than some durdling control deck with a higher curve.

So, you argue now like others in this thread. "I dont care what is better" "I like to play my deck"...
"it is better for my meta". Now this is the only real argument however nobody showed me a valid point against which part of the meta TA has a better matchup than BUG control (please dont say combo again or I cry). On the other hand I say BUG control has better matchups versus Stoneblade, Canadian and creature based decks.

Please dont get me wrong. I dont want to convince anybody to stop playing their pet deck. I tried to make a point that this thread does not belong in the DTB section and that BUG control is stronger. The hole discussion so far supported my line of thinking.

[biggerliz]

i feel that BUG and TA have one of the strongest turns 1-4 in the game. but if you manage to go long, and it becomes a top deck war, then you are going to struggle, specifically against GW and UW blade

how often have we hymned hymned and then they top deck snap or stoneforge, thereby creating virtual advantage by the gy we have given them?

as long as snapcaster is in the game, i am not sure discard is the most legitimate denial strategy, as they can easily recoup the card loss with this virtual card advantage.

Use capitalization please. Thanks. -zilla

[wcm8]

I think it is a misconception to say "I can reach the late game easily with cantrips" and therefore do not need more lands. It requires you to use your mana and brings you also in situations where you do not get the full value out of brainstorm. But I dont want you to run more lands in TA. My point was that the games where the postboard plan "board control" with deed/jace matters, TA ansforms to a worse version of BUG.

Also you made some strange points:
1) You protect your lands from wastelands with daze? ... how? plus daze is bad for the late game plan because you are set back the land drop!

2) The matchups we are talking about (like Merfolk & Maverick) stifle hopefully goes to the board, because you said youself it is about board control. So you cant protect your lands from the opponents wasteland.

Calling Jace a liability is true for TA. In the right deck he is most of the time the "be all and all". And in cretaure matchups where you constantly trade 1:1 (and 2:1 with snappy) he and deed is the best way to get ahead.

I agree. If you know you play mostly combo, TA is better than Canadian. However, even in the combo-heaviest meta you will face something else...

So, you argue now like others in this thread. "I dont care what is better" "I like to play my deck"...
"it is better for my meta". Now this is the only real argument however nobody showed me a valid point against which part of the meta TA has a better matchup than BUG control (please dont say combo again or I cry). On the other hand I say BUG control has better matchups versus Stoneblade, Canadian and creature based decks.

Please dont get me wrong. I dont want to convince anybody to stop playing their pet deck. I tried to make a point that this thread does not belong in the DTB section and that BUG control is stronger. The hole discussion so far supported my line of thinking.

1. Regarding Ponder: Playing 4 Ponder smooths out the performance of the deck. Are there times I wish my turn one play was playing Thoughtseize instead of holding up mana for Stifle or using Ponder to look for a t2 play and/or a counterspell? Sure. But then consider the way the deck plays out -- you ideally get the opponent into a topdeck war with you having a threat onboard. In such situations, Ponder helps you maintain that window of opportunity until they go to zero. Compare that to topdecking additional discard.

And if discard effects are so key in the matchup, you can board into it. [FWIW, I've been testing 3 Vendilion Cliques in the SB to good results.]

Also, as I stated before, getting mana flooded is often just as terrible as getting mana screwed in Legacy. Running fewer lands and more filter means you can get exactly what you need and then stop.

2. Regarding Stifle: I haven't seen/played against too much merfolk lately, but back in the Mental Misstep era, I usually boarded out 4 FoW and 4 Mental Misstep and left Stifle in. Protecting your lands is so key in this matchup, and it screwed up their combat math when they had an Aether Vial onboard.

Against Goblins, Stifle is such a beating, you definitely DO NOT side it out. Almost their entire deck is based on triggered effects.

Against Maverick, yeah, I'd likely side it out, but then that deck isn't too hard to beat anyways.

3. Regarding Daze: Just the threat of Daze makes opponents play differently (same with Stifle). A good technique is to sometimes play Daze 'wrong' by leaving it in the deck post-sideboard on the draw -- often an opponent will assume you've boarded it out and walk their 3/4 CMC spell right into.

Also, how great is it when your tap out for Hymn, your opponent Brainstorms in response, and you daze it? These are the games you typically go on to win. Or Daze against a FoW when they're tapped out.

There is typically no need for a 'lategame' for TA. The average curve is like, two. So setting yourself back a land drop doesn't usually matter. And with Stifle and Wasteland, you are often keeping the opponent's spells in 'Daze-range'.

There are some occasions where Daze can save you from a Wasteland blowout. Suppose you have two lands and a Brainstorm in hand. Your opponent goes to waste one of them, you Brainstorm in response, Daze your own Brainstorm (returning the targeted land safely to hand), and then pay Daze's cost with the other land to resolve brainstorm. This is convoluted, sure, but it is better than losing because of mana screw.

I'm also started to see this terrible Pox deck become popular. With the right build of TA, this deck is laughably easy to beat, and this is in part thanks to Daze (nice Sinkhole ;P), whereas I think BUG Control would have a very hard time EVER beating that deck.

4. Regarding Jace: Ask yourself, how often do you end up boarding out Jace versus leaving him in? He's great against midrange and other control decks, sure. But how often in tournaments do you run into Zoo, Canadian Thresh, Goblins, Merfolk, or some other similarly aggressive strategy? Now while it is true that Snapcaster Mage has granted pure control decks an edge over some aggressive strategies, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be easier to get to four mana through all the mana denial (or five against Thresh/Merfolk since you have the threat of tapping out into a Daze -- not to mention them holding a Lightning Bolt or whatever). In these matchups, Jace is often (notice I said often, not always) going to be a dead draw or a 4-mana brainstorm at best. That's why my approach with BUG has been to board him in when he's good rather than have to board him out.

RATHER THAN arguing that TA is the 'inferior control build' in comparison to BUG Control, I'd be more likely to argue that BUG is the inferior control build in comparison to UWx Stoneforge. Discard spells seem much better in a deck that can a) capitalize on the disruption and b) maintain a threatening board state/disruption. Stoneforge decks seem to have a much stronger end game -- to be honest, Tarmogoyf is pretty underwhelming later in the game if you aren't already winning (compared to SFM's ability to randomly come back from losing board states), and topdecking discard spells when you're behind is bad. In fact, the main advantage I'd see BUG Control having over UW Stoneforge is a stronger combo matchup -- which you seem to continue to be dismissive about, as if TA being -THE- combo slayer is a mediocre selling-point.

But that's really neither here nor there because this is the TA thread.

5. TA is not a pet deck. It is a tier one performer that has game against a huge swath of the current and potential Legacy metagame. A true 'pet deck' would be something like Enchantress or Armageddon Stax. Could those decks be the best deck on a given day? Sure. But to argue their superiority over other 'safer' options without metagame considerations would be silly. I take issue with your claiming that people are playing/defending this deck purely because of some sort of personal bias. Well as far as personal bias goes, sure, I've won a handful of tournaments with the tempo build whereas I've more often gone 0-2 drop with a more controlling list. Should it be in the DTB section? Probably not, but the only person who seems to really care about that so much is you.

[wcm8]

i feel that BUG and TA have one of the strongest turns 1-4 in the game. but if you manage to go long, and it becomes a top deck war, then you are going to struggle, specifically against GW and UW blade

how often have we hymned hymned and then they top deck snap or stoneforge, thereby creating virtual advantage by the gy we have given them?

as long as snapcaster is in the game, i am not sure discard is the most legitimate denial strategy, as they can easily recoup the card loss with this virtual card advantage.

Agreed, and this is why Hymn seems to better support a more aggressive strategy like TA where you can drop a t2/3 threat and ride it to victory. Compare that to BUG control where you are much more likely to end up going for the long game.

[KobeBryan]

How useful is pernicious deed and krosan grip in this meta?

[Esper3k]

Deed is pretty good both against Canadian and SFM decks.

Grip isn't as great with no CB around anymore, but is still fine against equipment.

[from Cairo]

How useful is pernicious deed and krosan grip in this meta?

I think these cards are quite good in the current format if one has the mana to support them. I don't know that they are best supported in traditional (19-21 land) Team America.

Pernicious Deed is great at sweeping Maverick, can be good against Vial agro (admittedly seeing less play lately), and is any excellent answer to some more rogue strategies that people tend to not tune their decks towards - Enchantress, Affinity, etc. Things to consider are that Deed often ties up 2 turns of mana (5ish mana), and can require you to have an answer to Qasali Pridemage (and GSZ -> QP) against Maverick.

Krosan Grip is obviously good against Stoneblade varients. Being able to outright kill Batterskull and uncounterably answer Sword of Feast and Famine is a noteworthy boost. The other major card to consider is Choke, which Grip can help if one's managed to leave mana up, or has a Bayou on board and can hit a few more mana sources - honestly, I don't think Krosan Grip is the best answer here, something like Spell Pierce or discard is going to better suited than dealing with the card after it's resolved.

TL;DR: The cards are good, but with TA's mana they can be difficult to support, cheaper narrower answers probably prove better. Deed and Grip are better in BUG Control that can support their mana costs with more ease.

[Koby]

I think these cards are quite good in the current format if one has the mana to support them. I don't know that they are best supported in traditional (19-21 land) Team America.

Pernicious Deed is great at sweeping Maverick, can be good against Vial agro (admittedly seeing less play lately), and is any excellent answer to some more rogue strategies that people tend to not tune their decks towards - Enchantress, Affinity, etc. Things to consider are that Deed often ties up 2 turns of mana (5ish mana), and can require you to have an answer to Qasali Pridemage (and GSZ -> QP) against Maverick.

Krosan Grip is obviously good against Stoneblade varients. Being able to outright kill Batterskull and uncounterably answer Sword of Feast and Famine is a noteworthy boost. The other major card to consider is Choke, which Grip can help if one's managed to leave mana up, or has a Bayou on board and can hit a few more mana sources - honestly, I don't think Krosan Grip is the best answer here, something like Spell Pierce or discard is going to better suited than dealing with the card after it's resolved.

TL;DR: The cards are good, but with TA's mana they can be difficult to support, cheaper narrower answers probably prove better. Deed and Grip are better in BUG Control that can support their mana costs with more ease.

Nature's Claim might be even better. When has Krosan Grip been relevant in the last few months outside of breaking up Counterbalance; or playing against dedicated control (with Counterspell alongside Force of Will)?

[TheRedBaron]

TL;DR: The cards are good, but with TA's mana they can be difficult to support, cheaper narrower answers probably prove better. Deed and Grip are better in BUG Control that can support their mana costs with more ease.

I went 3-1, top 8, then Top 4 (lost to SFM Bantblade), with my delver build last week (20 land)
I agree with you for the most part, however I did run both Deed/K-grip on board.

This is what my board is currently:

3 Flusterstorm
3 Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 K -Grip

I only really boarded in k-grip vs. Batterskull, but I found that between my MD Discard + stifle, it really wasn't relevant.

Deed on the other hand is still pretty good, even in 20-land builds. In fact,I DIDN'T board in vs. Bantblade in Top 4, (like a n00b), and this is why I lost to bantblade game 3. I run 3-4 on the sideboard and it is amazing vs. Maverick/Bant/Dredge/EtW tokens/Staxx/etc.

You board Deed in vs. slow decks/draw-go or like Staxx. The matches you board deed in warrant the slower game, so being a 3 drop is irrelevant. It's too powerful not to include in your 75, IMO.

Grip on the otherhand, I'm probably dropping for something else, maybe Echoing Truth or Nature's Claim. Chain of Vapor even, maybe more reanimate, slots, 4th Deed.

[nitewolf9]

I have been running K Grip in my board as a 2 of as well and I'm not entirely happy with it, as in the U/w matchups it is a reactive card that is dead against a Jace, when your creatures can kill a germ token anyway.

I was actually considering Torpor Orb in my 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 3 Stalker build. It shuts down both Stoneforge Mystic and Snapcaster Mage, as well as Spellstutter Sprite and Vendilion Clique's ability if that's relevant. Snapcaster bringing back swords is kind of annoying.

It is kind of narrow as you'd only really want it against U/w blade decks, and I guess it also hoses goblins, as if anyone is playing that deck and as if we needed the help. Not sure where else it would be good.

I dunno, could be terrible but I thought I'd throw it into the mix.

[Esper3k]

I have been running K Grip in my board as a 2 of as well and I'm not entirely happy with it, as in the U/w matchups it is a reactive card that is dead against a Jace, when your creatures can kill a germ token anyway.

I was actually considering Torpor Orb in my 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 3 Stalker build. It shuts down both Stoneforge Mystic and Snapcaster Mage, as well as Spellstutter Sprite and Vendilion Clique's ability if that's relevant. Snapcaster bringing back swords is kind of annoying.

It is kind of narrow as you'd only really want it against U/w blade decks, and I guess it also hoses goblins, as if anyone is playing that deck and as if we needed the help. Not sure where else it would be good.

I dunno, could be terrible but I thought I'd throw it into the mix.

You know, I've also been considering Torpor Orb (I play the same creature package)!

I also thought it was too narrow along with Cursed Totem (I was considering it for Maverick decks).

In the end, I figured Extirpate was just fine against Snapcaster and pretty much hoses their future usefulness as well most of the time.

[catmint]

1. Regarding Ponder: Playing 4 Ponder smooths out the performance of the deck...

You are explaining me in this Post how Team America works. That is not necessary as I used to play it. I also do not ponder on how cool it is to snap back a hymn on turn 4, since it would not add alot to the discussion. However, nothing in your post shows where TA has an advantage over BUG control. Still failing to explain which part of the meta TA has an edge and why.

I want to comment on the following statements.



Also, as I stated before, getting mana flooded is often just as terrible as getting mana screwed in Legacy. Running fewer lands and more filter means you can get exactly what you need and then stop.

Manaflood is horrible for TA and tempo decks. UW, BUG and other control decks like to draw and play lands, because they want to use 4-8 mana over 1-2 turns to do unfair things.



There is typically no need for a 'lategame' for TA. The average curve is like, two.

Sure... but that is the reason why you cannot play deed and jace appropriately which makes TA worse than BUG control in many matchups. Thanks for supporting this point finally. :wink:



Against Maverick, yeah, I'd likely side it (Stifle) out, but then that deck isn't too hard to beat anyways.

On what Planet does TA beat Maverick? This is a horror matchup!!



I'm also started to see this terrible Pox deck become popular. With the right build of TA, this deck is laughably easy to beat, and this is in part thanks to Daze (nice Sinkhole ;P), whereas I think BUG Control would have a very hard time EVER beating that deck.

Your statements are so polarised using words like "laughably easy" and "very hard time EVER beating" which shows that you do not have a professional and realistic mindset but more a selective memory and a way to evaluate matchups like a child.
But your rhetoric issues aside. Pox attacks greedy manabases & resources. Which deck do you think has a bigger chance? The one running more lands and card advantage or the one which tries to win fast with a greedy manabase? Since the SCG finish I beat Pox 4 times with BUG control (2:1, 2:1, 2:0, 2:0).



4. Regarding Jace: Ask yourself, how often do you end up boarding out Jace versus leaving him in? He's great against midrange and other control decks, sure. But how often in tournaments do you run into Zoo, Canadian Thresh, Goblins, Merfolk, or some other similarly aggressive strategy?

This just shows why you dropped 0:2 regularly playing a control deck. You seem not to understand how it works. JACE IS THE WAY TO GET AN ADVANTAGE IN THE LONG GAME. After trading off with aggressive decks and nobody has cards or permanents you have Jace. I can imagine you would side out jace in TA (and therefore have him in the board). In control decks he is rarely sided out and surely not against any of the decks you mentioned!



RATHER THAN arguing that TA is the 'inferior control build' in comparison to BUG Control, I'd be more likely to argue that BUG is the inferior control build in comparison to UWx Stoneforge. Discard spells seem much better in a deck that can a) capitalize on the disruption and b) maintain a threatening board state/disruption. Stoneforge decks seem to have a much stronger end game -- to be honest, Tarmogoyf is pretty underwhelming later in the game if you aren't already winning (compared to SFM's ability to randomly come back from losing board states), and topdecking discard spells when you're behind is bad.

I did not argue that TA is the 'inferior control build' (only post board versus creature based matchup... but this point is so obvious that it is not worth discussing)...
I argued that BUG control is the overall best deck in the BUG colors!

Now the point that BUG is an inferior control build than UW Stoneforge is a good one which needs to be adressed, but as you said should not be discussed here. Just one point, because I think you have a misconception about discard. You are right that BUG control has obviously a better combo matchup and that SFM has better late game value than Goyf. However, because of continous discard (Snapcaster) the opposing control deck has a hard time playing "draw go". Discard is not only powerful if you have an agressive game state to end the game quickly, but also if it supports the gameplan of grinding your opponent out by providing card advantage and stopping your opponent from implementing his gameplan.

The argument that topdecking discard is bad if you are behind is true. But in the context of comparing BUG control with UW it is not valid. You have the same problem with UW if you behind on board and topdeck one of the many counterspells. Also the the matchup BUG versus UW the late game discard has value since UW draws a lot of cards which are reactive and not played out.



Should it (BUG control) be in the DTB section? Probably not, but the only person who seems to really care about that so much is you.

I do care about the differentiation of BUG and TA, which is not done unfortunately.
At the moment probably neither of both decks belong to the DTB section but if you check which builds enabled this rating for the TA thread you will see that since snapcaster the release 65% or more was BUG control and not TA.

By the way in december: BUG control 5 top finishes, BUG/TA hybrid has 1, Team america has 0.
check it out: http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Team%20America&format=Legacy

The real reason I post is because I want to attract smart TA players to try it out and make the archetype BUG control better overall.

[GtF]

A well argued case. I will definitely be testing both BUG control and TA for the GP in march.

[xfxf]

I have to say I agree with catmind regarding the decks showing results for the past months is actually BUG control of some sort rather than Team America.

Team America as we know it (about 20 lands, Tombstalkers, Stifle/Daze/Wasteland) ceased to exist on a meaningful level since the banning of Mental Misstep and printing of Snapcaster Mage. Since then its more like 24 lands, Snapcasters utilizing flashed back removal and discard with Jace and Tarmogoyf as the win conditions.

I think people tend to associate the BUG decks with Hymns and Tarmogoyfs with the name Team America because it has a cooler name and have a reputation of being a strong archetype. We don't refer to RUG as Canadian Threshold anymore even though it's playstyle is much closer to it than Team America's playstyle to what it is today.

[GtF]

I don't agree that it "ceased to exist" or that BUG control is necessarily better just because it's put up better results in the past few months. I believe the sample size is pretty small, and ultimately people want to try new things, so these results could just be from very few people playing TA anymore, not from it being bad. Players have often pointed out the difference between European and American metagames, this difference in results could be a product of something like that.

[Koby]

I also agree with Catmint. Traditional TA builds excel in metagames that thrive on Combo. The metagame is not looking like that at all recently, thanks in part to the resurgence of blue tempo decks. RUG generally has a leg-up on the matchup against TA thanks to the removal spells also having reach.

It seems to me that this archetype (BUG/TA) has a difficult time dealing with SFM and other mid/late-game cards. I agree that Jace is beneficial to help sustain the deck outside from the "easy" victories where you can just blow the opponent out with Hymn, Stifle, Wasteland, and a quick Goyf/Delver.

[Esper3k]

I always felt TA was favored in the Canadian Thresh matchup due to a resolved Goyf / Tombstalker being so difficult for them to answer.

However, I do think the overall strength of Tombstalker has been greatly reduced due to GFTT, Dismember, and StP so a more controlling build is probably better overall these days.

[KobeBryan]

I want to start playing aggro bant since My merfolk deck and rock deck keeps getting spanked in tournaments.

any criticisms on my deck

lands
1 forest
1 island
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
4 misty rainforests
1 savannah
4 tropical islands
2 tundra
3 wastelands
3 windswept heaths

creatures
1 dryad arbor
4 knights of the reliquary
1 edric
2 geist of saint traft
4 noble heirarchs
2 scavenging ooze
2 quasali pridemage
2 tarmogoyf

instants
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorms
4 force of wills
3 daze

enchantments
1 sylvan library

sorcery
3 green sun zenith

planeswalkers
2 jace TMS

sideboard
1 tormods crypt
3 surgical extractions
3 path to exiles
3 spell pierces
1 flusterstorm
2 meddling mage
1 quasali pridemage
1 bojuka bog

[Esper3k]

I want to start playing aggro bant since My merfolk deck and rock deck keeps getting spanked in tournaments.

any criticisms on my deck

lands
1 forest
1 island
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
4 misty rainforests
1 savannah
4 tropical islands
2 tundra
3 wastelands
3 windswept heaths

creatures
1 dryad arbor
4 knights of the reliquary
1 edric
2 geist of saint traft
4 noble heirarchs
2 scavenging ooze
2 quasali pridemage
2 tarmogoyf

instants
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorms
4 force of wills
3 daze

enchantments
1 sylvan library

sorcery
3 green sun zenith

planeswalkers
2 jace TMS

sideboard
1 tormods crypt
3 surgical extractions
3 path to exiles
3 spell pierces
1 flusterstorm
2 meddling mage
1 quasali pridemage
1 bojuka bog

Wrong thread? :)

[KobeBryan]

Wrong thread? :)

you are right.

[wcm8]

An approach I've been testing is upping the threat density...

20 lands
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember (might just be better as 4 snuff out)
2 Snuff Out
4 Goyf
4 Delver
3 Tombstalker
2 V. Clique (has been great in testing lately and usually better than Snapcaster..)

[aznepyon7]

An approach I've been testing is upping the threat density...

20 lands
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember (might just be better as 4 snuff out)
2 Snuff Out
4 Goyf
4 Delver
3 Tombstalker
2 V. Clique (has been great in testing lately and usually better than Snapcaster..)

Skeptical about cutting out a Hymn. They've been really good from the playtesting. Snuff out has been really good and I think it works very well in the tempo TA version.

I've really liked Clique too but I'm not so sure it belongs in the tempo version of TA. Maybe as a 1 of?

What are your thoughts on IoK instead of Thoughtseize?

I've been thinking of cutting out a ponder. It just feels too repetitive at times with the 4 BS and Ponders.

[NathanS2k]

Have anyone tried using Massacre in their SB against Maverick or Bant Aggro? I would imagine it would be pretty sick to wipe out their mana-dorks/mother of runes/dryad arbor and slow down their early development.

[wcm8]

Have anyone tried using Massacre in their SB against Maverick or Bant Aggro? I would imagine it would be pretty sick to wipe out their mana-dorks/mother of runes/dryad arbor and slow down their early development.


Yes, this card is pretty ridiculous if you draw it early enough. Doesn't help much against a Knight of the Reliquary though. It's sometimes nicer than Perish because your Goyfs will survive. I'm currently running 1 Massacre and 1 Perish in my SB to help with these matchups (which really aren't too bad unless they get an early choke in the case of Maverick). Darkblast has similarly utility in killing mana dorks, but with Maverick being a DTB I think Massacre warrants 1 or 2 slots. It's also pretty good vs UW Stoneblade.

[NathanS2k]

Yeah, early choke is pretty much GG. That's why I want to utilize as many "free" spells as possible with almost zero drawback. Couldn't find a better card than Massacre against Maverick/Bant aggro.

[Khurtz]

Hello all,

I recently came back to legacy after a 5-6 month hiatus and went straight back to playing TA in a local tournament. Here's a link to the tournament report I posted a few minutes ago:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22945-TA-Top-4-at-Millenium-Games-and-Hobbies-in-Rochester-NY&p=612152#post612152

The one match I lost was against R/U/G aggro-control with Bloodbraid Elf and the usual Jace, Clique, Goyf type of package. I was wondering if anyone here has any particular strategies they use against this type of deck. Particularly I'm wondering if you think it's worth focusing your Stifle's on mana denial or saving them for Jace/Clique/Elf instead.

Additionally, what removal would you board in for this matchup and what would your overall removal package look like post-board?

[wcm8]

I've been seeing some fair reason to include Hydroblast in the SB again. The UR Delver deck seems very popular, and you will have a very tough time beating them in g2 and 3 without some sort of way to answer a timely Price of Progress. Of course, it also deals with Goblins which always sees some fringe play in big tournaments.

As for Bloodbraid Elf, that is a tough one. Ideally you can keep them low on mana, so I would try to use Stifle to cut off their mana. Darkblast, Massacre, and Perish can also help clear their board of mana dorks to help prevent them from ramping into Jace or BBE.

However, I've actually been experimenting with cutting Stifle entirely from my list to some good results -- Spell Pierce and Thoughtseize are very good even without Stifle in a deck. I will hold off from posting my list until the entirety of Dark Ascension is revealed, because I'm predicting that there may be some new significant toys for us to play with. Failing that, we can at least expect some other decks to get new cards which may lead to a metagame shift.

[Khurtz]

I've been seeing some fair reason to include Hydroblast in the SB again. The UR Delver deck seems very popular, and you will have a very tough time beating them in g2 and 3 without some sort of way to answer a timely Price of Progress. Of course, it also deals with Goblins which always sees some fringe play in big tournaments.

As for Bloodbraid Elf, that is a tough one. Ideally you can keep them low on mana, so I would try to use Stifle to cut off their mana. Darkblast, Massacre, and Perish can also help clear their board of mana dorks to help prevent them from ramping into Jace or BBE.

However, I've actually been experimenting with cutting Stifle entirely from my list to some good results -- Spell Pierce and Thoughtseize are very good even without Stifle in a deck. I will hold off from posting my list until the entirety of Dark Ascension is revealed, because I'm predicting that there may be some new significant toys for us to play with. Failing that, we can at least expect some other decks to get new cards which may lead to a metagame shift.

I actually just cut BEB/Hydroblast after running them for almost a year : - P It's actually a meta call as there was almost no combo or Gobbo's in my meta but I used to love boarding that in against Burn/Gobbo's/Belcher.

I'll have to experiment with Massacre and maybe try Darkblast again (I cut it after a horrific showing against Merfolk at a 100-man event last year) as I like how DB hits Hierarch and Clique while fueling Tstalker.

I cannot in good conscience cut Stifle as it's been my darling card for the past few years in that deck and has won me so many games I lost count a long time ago. I am curious as to what your list looks like without it though. I'm thinking of experimenting with a 2/2 split of Spell Pierce and Thoughtseize to see which I like better (or if a split is best) however Pierce has been pretty stellar in most of my matchups.

Thanks for taking time to respond!

[GtF]

Yeah I've tried darkblast against merfolk and it really isn't the card you want in that matchup. If you're using it to kill a silvergill adept, the damage has already been done. In fact, if there's any one card you want to keep them from resolving, it's adept. That matchup is hard any way you slice it.

[Khurtz]

I'm debating about cutting Grips to run more removal in the form of Deed and Consuming Vapor but I'm also thinking I might up Ghastly to 4 as it's been a house in every aggro match I've ever used it in. I've taken out KOTR at 11 with them before and I also don't see enough mono-black or Tstalker/Confidant based decks to warrant concern for the non-black part.

[Koby]

I'm debating about cutting Grips to run more removal in the form of Deed and Consuming Vapor but I'm also thinking I might up Ghastly to 4 as it's been a house in every aggro match I've ever used it in. I've taken out KOTR at 11 with them before and I also don't see enough mono-black or Tstalker/Confidant based decks to warrant concern for the non-black part.

Attempting to Ghastly Demise an active KOTR is a risky play. They could respond with an activation and blow out the spell by fetching Bojuka Bog. Ghastly Demise checks upon resolution the amount of cards in your g/y to determine if the card destroys its target.

[aznepyon7]

I'm debating about cutting Grips to run more removal in the form of Deed and Consuming Vapor but I'm also thinking I might up Ghastly to 4 as it's been a house in every aggro match I've ever used it in. I've taken out KOTR at 11 with them before and I also don't see enough mono-black or Tstalker/Confidant based decks to warrant concern for the non-black part.

I find that Snuff Out has been incredibly useful for that part and saving the single mana allows you to play a faster Hymn or Snapcaster. The problem I had for Snuff Out was the Stalkers/Confidants but no one plays Stalkers because of Snapcaster and DB takes care of Confidant as well as a wide range of stuff.

BTW a few pages back, there has been a conversation about how useful Stifle is anymore to TA now that Mental Misstep has been banned. I suggest you take a look if you haven't done so.

Also FYI, your decklist you posted on the link said Liliana Vess, but I'm sure you meant "Liliana of the Veil." Just letting you know.

[Khurtz]

@ Ruckus: While this is true, the situations I used it in involved me having 3-4 more cards in yard than the toughness so it never was really a concern.

@aznepyon7: I do love me some Snuff Out however the superior synergy between Snapcaster and Dismember is what led me to change that to my primary kill spell. As you can't play Snuff Out for the alternate cost with Snapcaster it makes it much less useful despite having to pay the 1 extra for Dismember.

In regards to Stifle I will probably never cut to less than 3 of it as I've been playing this deck long before MM even existed and Stifle has always been beastly. People aren't running any less fetchlands and there are plenty of other targets like Planeswalkers and Stoneforge Mystic to warrant inclusion. Of the matchups I've looked at, Reanimator and Merfolk were the only decks I really disliked Stifle against. Additionally, due to how weak the deck is against Wasteland, Stifle often prevents game losses to lucky Wasteland draws.

You are correct about Lilliana, I've been mixing up the two ever since they were printed : - P

[Koby]

@ Ruckus: While this is true, the situations I used it in involved me having 3-4 more cards in yard than the toughness so it never was really a concern.


Bojuka Bog removes the entire graveyard.

[aznepyon7]

@aznepyon7: I do love me some Snuff Out however the superior synergy between Snapcaster and Dismember is what led me to change that to my primary kill spell. As you can't play Snuff Out for the alternate cost with Snapcaster it makes it much less useful despite having to pay the 1 extra for Dismember.

In regards to Stifle I will probably never cut to less than 3 of it as I've been playing this deck long before MM even existed and Stifle has always been beastly. People aren't running any less fetchlands and there are plenty of other targets like Planeswalkers and Stoneforge Mystic to warrant inclusion. Of the matchups I've looked at, Reanimator and Merfolk were the only decks I really disliked Stifle against. Additionally, due to how weak the deck is against Wasteland, Stifle often prevents game losses to lucky Wasteland draws.

You are correct about Lilliana, I've been mixing up the two ever since they were printed : - P

I also like stifle but would you consider that a better investment than Spell Snares/Pierces and T1 discard? That seems to be the more important question. I've found that I like the early discard and counters over the Stifle as the application of Stifle I've found is too limited. But of course my decklist is more of a TA/BUG control hybrid so it may be different for me.

[Khurtz]

@rukcus: Yeah, for some reason the second part of your sentence didn't register after I read it the first time : - P I believe the situation in which I used Ghastly was directly after KOTR was played so they wouldn't have had the ability to fetch out for Bog. That is something I will need to watch out for though.

@aznepyon7: I still find plenty of utility with Stifle in comparison with the other turn 1 alternatives. Sometimes the psychological effect of having to worry about your opponent Stifling your fetch will result in misplays or slow plays even if you don't have the Stifle. Additionally, I find most matches that I lose are due to Wasteland and adding Snares and Thoughtseizes does nothing to help with that. I've tried upping the land count by 1-2 or running basics but this leads to land flooding. The other thing I like about Stifle, specifically in regards to fetches, is the ability to employ a more aggressive mana denial strategy to make Daze more effective.

[aznepyon7]

@aznepyon7: I still find plenty of utility with Stifle in comparison with the other turn 1 alternatives. Sometimes the psychological effect of having to worry about your opponent Stifling your fetch will result in misplays or slow plays even if you don't have the Stifle. Additionally, I find most matches that I lose are due to Wasteland and adding Snares and Thoughtseizes does nothing to help with that. I've tried upping the land count by 1-2 or running basics but this leads to land flooding. The other thing I like about Stifle, specifically in regards to fetches, is the ability to employ a more aggressive mana denial strategy to make Daze more effective.

Even if you don't run stifle, the psychological effect of a Stifle effect is still there because TA usually runs the card.

MU that are lost because of Wasteland means you should consider rearranging your mana base. It's no secret that TA's fragile mana base is one of the deck's biggest weakness. Better than adding in land is either changing a tempo base deck to a hybrid with BUG control elements or using Life from the Loam maindeck.

The problem with daze is that you usually want to have 2 lands T2 so you can Hymn or lay down a Goyf asap to put on the pressure. Because of this, I've dropped the Daze down to 3 where it is still consistent but does not make me too overly dependent on it. A T1 discard seems to be effective against many decks out there and compared to a more consistent daze, seems to be a bigger pay off due to the increased pressure. The psychological benefits of Daze is still there and to an opponent, 3 or 4 Daze isn't that much a difference, they will still be concerned about it.

[archestraty]

New to the forums / discussion, i was wondering if you guys could give me some pointers on my deck. I was trying to keep it tempo oriented instead of heavy control.

Land (21)
3x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs

Sorcery (8)
4x Ponder
4x Hymn to Tourach

Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library

Instant (18)
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
2x Snuff Out

Creature (12)
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tombstalker
4x Delver of Secrets

I am not sure on the inclusion of sylvan library and snuff out. I feel like i am missing some pointed discard. Let me know if there is something fundamentally wrong with my build or i missed something blindingly obvious :laugh:

[wcm8]

I love Sylvan Library. Keep it.

I hate Delver in this deck. In my testing, he has been largely inconsistent about flipping, and becomes underwhelming very quickly. In UR or RUG tempo builds he makes sense because you can facilitate the clock with burn, in BUG you don't really have that option.

Having only 2 maindeck removal is verrrry sketchy. Legacy by and large revolves around creatures, and not being able to answer, say, and opposing Knight of the Reliquary consistently is going to be a problem.

Changes I would make:
-4 Delver
-2 Clique
-1 Land
-1 Daze
+1 Tombstalker
+3 Snapcaster (or if you dislike Snapcaster, +1 Tombstalker, +2 Clique)
+4 Removal (or +2 Removal +2 Spell Pierce or Thoughtseize)

edit: Also, if you decide to use Snapcaster, you'll want your removal configuration to be flashback-able, so no Snuff Out. I personally have been liking 2 Smother, 1 GftT, 2 Dismember, 1 Ghastly Demise. Maybe some Diabolic Edicts if your meta warrants them. Hopefully someday we can get a good 1cmc black removal spell, until then mixing it up seems ideal.

But if you decide to not use Snapcaster, Snuff Out is great in a meta that isn't too burn-heavy.

[archestraty]

sounds good i will likely make the following changes:
-4 Delver
-1 Fetch Land
-1 Daze
+2 Tombstalker
+4 Removal

Thanks for the input i will try it out and go from there.

[aznepyon7]

Although I agree with what wcm8 says and his suggestions does make the deck great, TA with Delver is what makes it tempoish. This creature is one of the necessary cards for the tempo version although it may not be great. Opinions will differ on this subject.

Snapcaster is awesome but he's definitely more control oriented. I wouldn't say don't use him, but you shouldn't run 4 of with the current mana base you have.

My suggestion for removal would be Dismember and Go for the Throat. The tempo base version that lacks the Snapcasters would generally have a bit more Dismember/Snuff out than Go for the Throat as you need to cast that Discard/Hymn ASAP.

I don't think Ghastly Demise with Tombstalker is a good idea. Tombstalker eats a lot of cards and Game 2 may have GY removal. That card is a more BUG control card. It will be ever worse if you are planning to run 4 tombstalkers.

I would also suggest considering 3X T1 discard instead of 4X Stifles. They have been excellent for me. Watch your blue count though. Most people agree that 18 is good for consistent 1st turn FoW, but I wouldn't go less than 19-20.

One excellent card I've tried, though it is not technically tempo, is Liliana of the Veil. She is excellent in many match ups and I suggest trying her out. She makes the game against Maverick and Stoneblade much better although those are still not good match ups. Don't use her as early discard or removal. Use her as sustained pressure and you will find her excellent. The best alternative to Jace I've found. She also takes place as some removal. If you run her though, 21 lands may be safer and take out 1-2 creature removal (so you have 4-5 removal). Meta game decision though.

[atropos]

New to the forums / discussion, i was wondering if you guys could give me some pointers on my deck. I was trying to keep it tempo oriented instead of heavy control.

Anybody mind posting a more controllish build? Just ordered some Snapcaster Mages and I'd like to transform my tempo Tombstalker build into the newer version of TA. Thanks!

[wcm8]

Anybody mind posting a more controllish build? Just ordered some Snapcaster Mages and I'd like to transform my tempo Tombstalker build into the newer version of TA. Thanks!

23-24 Lands
3-4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn
3-4 Spell Snare
2-4 Targeted Discard (Thoughtseize and/or IoK)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster
0-2 Clique/Terravore
2-3 Jace, TMS
1-3 Liliana otV
4-5 Targeted Removal
0-2 Pernicious Deed
0-2 Ponder
0-2 Life from the Loam
0-4 Dark Confidant (rarely)

These seem to be the popular choices for a more controlling build. I'm not a huge fan of this version.

[aznepyon7]

23-24 Lands
3-4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn
3-4 Spell Snare
2-4 Targeted Discard (Thoughtseize and/or IoK)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster
0-2 Clique/Terravore
2-3 Jace, TMS
1-3 Liliana otV
4-5 Targeted Removal
0-2 Pernicious Deed
0-2 Ponder
0-2 Life from the Loam
0-4 Dark Confidant (rarely)

These seem to be the popular choices for a more controlling build. I'm not a huge fan of this version.

Just wanted to add that the targeted removal is generally 0-1 more Go For the Throat, no Snuff Out, and adding in 1-3 Ghastly Demise.

[Samara]

I rather don't call it a Team America, but it "could" be a BUG more tempo oriented control, so, it runs just like a BUG, but uses many team america "tempo trades" ir order to be fast enought to control tempo and agroo decks. I use Dark confidant as my card advantage engine, and have some unusual choises for a control package, like Daze, without Stifle and any land disruption at all, being something alike team america gamestyle.

I realy would apreciate you guys help. And sorry for my poor english, i'm Brazilian ^^.

This is it. Fell free to make any question or observation as I would be happy to explain all of this. = ]

And yes, I know all about Snapcaster Mage, Even so, I rather have Dark Confidants, as I choose as well to protect then, ir order to maximize their value. I need special help in the manabase as I'm not realy secure about these ones, but I'm sure I don't pretend to use wastelands, and pretend to use some basics....just that.

This is it.

//Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Tarmogoyf

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
1 Go for the Throat
1 Pernicious Deed

//Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

So? :laugh:

[wcm8]

I've been pondering removal options in Team America.

-Snuff Out is still pretty insane, but Dismember is functionally similar and can a) kill Bob and Tombstalkers, b) mitigate life loss in the late game, and c) is Snapcast-able in more situations. But it is still situationally better since it costs zero and can take out a big KotR, Terravore, Goyf, Dreadnought, etc.
-Smother might be better than Go for the Throat right now with all the Mishra's Factory running around. Alternatively, maindeck Diabolic Edict isn't bad since there doesn't seem to be as many swarm strategies and stuff like Thrun, Reanimator targets, and Geist of Saint Traft can be answered with it.
-I kind of like the idea of using Shriekmaw. It can answer Emrakul, doesn't get hit by Spell Snare, and can [rarely] be an additional attacker in the late game. But the biggest strike against it (aside from sorcery speed and terror-restrictions) is that can't be snapped back. So this is probably not worth it in most TA lists, though I could see a more controlling BUG list using it.

Ideally we will get a new removal spell in the new set. A 1cmc Terror would be great.

[aznepyon7]

I've been pondering removal options in Team America.

-Snuff Out is still pretty insane, but Dismember is functionally similar and can a) kill Bob and Tombstalkers, b) mitigate life loss in the late game, and c) is Snapcast-able in more situations. But it is still situationally better since it costs zero and can take out a big KotR, Terravore, Goyf, Dreadnought, etc.
-Smother might be better than Go for the Throat right now with all the Mishra's Factory running around. Alternatively, maindeck Diabolic Edict isn't bad since there doesn't seem to be as many swarm strategies and stuff like Thrun, Reanimator targets, and Geist of Saint Traft can be answered with it.
-I kind of like the idea of using Shriekmaw. It can answer Emrakul, doesn't get hit by Spell Snare, and can [rarely] be an additional attacker in the late game. But the biggest strike against it (aside from sorcery speed and terror-restrictions) is that can't be snapped back. So this is probably not worth it in most TA lists, though I could see a more controlling BUG list using it.

Ideally we will get a new removal spell in the new set. A 1cmc Terror would be great.

I agree Snuff Out is still better in tempo TA. It can deal with MoM 1st turn (and allow you to have U/B open for a discard or counter) as well as KotR that comes out turn 2 which may circumvent your spell snare. You really need to get rid of KotR ASAP.

I really like Smother but it really is a meta play. I don't really see Affinity too often nor Mishra's so I lean a bit more toward GFtT.

I agree with you also on Shriekmaw. That although I love Shriekmaw, I don't see it being played widely due to Snapcaster in control TA and that Shriekmaw's benefits are very minimal in tempo TA.

[Koby]

I've been pondering removal options in Team America.

-Smother might be better than Go for the Throat right now

I've been saying this for the last 8 months. The relevant threats are all 3cc. Everything else Liliana or spot discard deals with.

[Samara]

If you guys are going TEMPO full... why not using Ghastly Demise? Between stifles and wastes, ponder and brainstorms I see if it removing almost everything, without the life loss... If the nightmare about having it and not be able to kill a creature haunt you guys so much you could always use it in place of go for the throat instead of dismember or snuff out...

So it would be something like (for 4 removals)

2 Dismembers
1 Demise
1 Snuff out

Cause dismember is usable early and mid... Demise is a bomb mid and late. Snuff out its strongest tempo or all, but having only one, you garante you will not die from its life loss. (also garante aswers to any color)

[aznepyon7]

If you guys are going TEMPO full... why not using Ghastly Demise? Between stifles and wastes, ponder and brainstorms I see if it removing almost everything, without the life loss... If the nightmare about having it and not be able to kill a creature haunt you guys so much you could always use it in place of go for the throat instead of dismember or snuff out...

So it would be something like (for 4 removals)

2 Dismembers
1 Demise
1 Snuff out

Cause dismember is usable early and mid... Demise is a bomb mid and late. Snuff out its strongest tempo or all, but having only one, you garante you will not die from its life loss. (also garante aswers to any color)

Because Demise is GY oriented. Snapcaster is still used in TA, but so is Tombstalker and Tombstalkers just destroys your GY. It won't help game 2 and 3 either.

Smother/GftT should probably have a slot. 5 removal is probably more appropriate in the current meta. It may not be a bad idea to shy away from too many Dismembers due to Maverick. It doesn't answer KotR.

[wcm8]

Massacre is the real deal in this current metagame and should be included if you are seeing a lot of Maverick, some types of Bant decks, Deadguy Ale, and is even pretty good vs. UW Stoneforge. It's *free*, doesn't get hit by Spell Snare, kills Mother of Runes and other Pro-black dorks, doesn't cost life, and can lead to huge board swings (and also won't typically kill your own Goyfs/Stalkers). Just save your 'real' removal for their KotRs and Oozes.

It also functions as a pseudo-Damnation vs. Elves and Goblins if you happen to run into those decks.

I'm running 2 in my SB right now, but I'm actually considering going up to 3 or 4 since it does a lot of what I want Pernicious Deed to do, just faster.

[NathanS2k]

Yup, Massacre has been the absolute nuts. I might even try to fit one in the MD.

[aznepyon7]

I tried running Massacre. It's been really good and I think I will keep 2 in sideboard.

As for Liliana, is it necessary to run Life from the Loam? I don't think it's as necessary as stated from other people on this and other MTG forums.

[wcm8]

Just throwing a potential list out there for testing:

19 lands (cut either a fetchland or the 4th underground sea)
4 Goyf
4 Delver
3 Tombstalker
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Snuff Out
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Predict

With the cantrips and an unflipped Delver, Predict is somewhat consistent with providing card advantage (and also helps feed an early/multiple Tombstalkers). This is basically the RUG delver deck, except your removal is better against Goyf/Knight.dec, and you have Hymn and Tombstalker and black SB options.

[Einherjer]

Hey guys I thought of entering this archetype aswell, and so Id be very happy if you gave me some decent feedback on the first list I thought of.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Wastelands
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
//19

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Snapcaster Mage
//13

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Snuff Out
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
//8

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
//8

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
//12


Is this list okay? Did I make any grave mistakes in building this?
Thanks for advice.

Greetings.

[lordofthepit]

Hey guys I thought of entering this archetype aswell, and so Id be very happy if you gave me some decent feedback on the first list I thought of.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Wastelands
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
//19

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Snapcaster Mage
//13

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Snuff Out
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
//8

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
//8

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
//12


Is this list okay? Did I make any grave mistakes in building this?
Thanks for advice.

Greetings.

Pretty minor issue, but since you're a BUG deck with no basics, your fetches should be U/B, U/G, or B/G to access every dual land in your deck. Replace the Marsh Flats with a Misty Rainforest.

[aznepyon7]

Hey guys I thought of entering this archetype aswell, and so Id be very happy if you gave me some decent feedback on the first list I thought of.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Wastelands
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
//19

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Snapcaster Mage
//13

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Snuff Out
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
//8

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
//8

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
//12


Is this list okay? Did I make any grave mistakes in building this?
Thanks for advice.

Greetings.

IMO, 19 lands is on the low-side, even for TA in a format that has too many wastelands running around. The Snapcasters do not work well with the Tombstalkers and in general, snapcasters are weaker in TA than in BUG control due to the restriction of mana. Snapcasters also do not work well with Snuff Out. My opinion is to either go with Snapcasters or with Tombstalkers but not both in the same deck. If you don't, it MAY work if you decide to run TS as a 1-of and you up the land count to 20. Also, remove the Marsh Flat for another fetchland that can grab any land in your deck.

There is a long conversation on whether Stifle or T1 discard is more effective. I personally believe the T1 discard is stronger than the mana denial and occasional usefulness of stifle but you can decide that for yourself.

I think what would give you a stronger game would be planeswalkers, particularly Jace and Liliana. You should give them a try and see what you think of them. It will make it a bit more controllish, but a TA/BUG control variant works better than a pure tempo TA in this aggressive meta.

[Einherjer]

Ye what a fail with the fetchlands - but what about 4 Goyf 4 Delver 4 Snapcaster and Stifle, Daze, Force, Hymn, Thoughtseize?

My list would look like this then:

20 lands (including 4 Wastelands, rest Fetchs and Duals)

4 Goyf
4 Delver
4 Snapcaster
//12 Core-Creatures

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
//20 Core-Spells

3 Ghastly Demise
2 Dismember
3 Ponder
//8 Extra-spells

Would this be playable? Snapcasters just double the amount of spells available, and with the nonexistence of Tombstalker Ghastly Demise is playable... What do you think?

[aznepyon7]

Ye what a fail with the fetchlands - but what about 4 Goyf 4 Delver 4 Snapcaster and Stifle, Daze, Force, Hymn, Thoughtseize?

My list would look like this then:

20 lands (including 4 Wastelands, rest Fetchs and Duals)

4 Goyf
4 Delver
4 Snapcaster
//12 Core-Creatures

4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
//20 Core-Spells

3 Ghastly Demise
2 Dismember
3 Ponder
//8 Extra-spells

Would this be playable? Snapcasters just double the amount of spells available, and with the nonexistence of Tombstalker Ghastly Demise is playable... What do you think?

I don't like Stifle as much as I like T1 discard. However you still need to keep your blue count high; I like it above 19+ at all times.

If you haven't tried it yet, Sylvan Library is just awesome. So is Liliana if you can fit her in. I also like Jace, but you will need at least 21 lands if you plan to play him

I'd drop a daze and consider Spell Snares/Pierces.

I would also turn a Ghastly Demise into a Smother. Don't be too GY dependent. It's also harder to hit larger creatures, especially KotR.

One last small issue, Snapcaster is rather mana hungry so keep in mind that 20 lands is borderline appropriate.

Overall my suggestions will shift TA more toward BUG control while still keeping TA elements. It just seems to do better in a format filled with Maverick and RUG tempo.

[NathanS2k]

I feel like Stifle is a must in TA. Without it, other people just pop their fetchlands and wasteland my lands when ever they want. :frown:

If I want to play a Stifle-less version of TA, I would rather play BUG control. But that's another story.

[Einherjer]

Ive done a few changes from my list above:

First of all I cut one Ponder and 1 Land for 2 Liliana of the Veil. - This turned out to be great, it won me so many of games

Now I want to change something else again, I want to fit in a few Spell Snares just because of the pure power of them, but what to cut?
Id suggest 1 Snappy and 1 Hymn to Tourach for 2 Spell Snares? Maybe a Ghastly Demise for a third?
What do you think?

[Fl0do]

19 Lands seems to be too less for a Deck which wants to support Snapcaster Mages and Spells which cost double black.
Also with the addition of Planeswalkers like Liliana, you go into a more controlish direction, why I suggest you BUG Control. Cut the Stifles and add some Lands, Canadian is the better Stifle-Deck anyways.

If I would play BUG, I would take advante of cards like Jace, Liliana and Pernicious Deed.

But if you want to try to keep the Stifle-Waste strategy, try cards like Nimble Mongoose, Thoughseize and/or Dark Confidant.

[Einherjer]

What would you suggest considering my list posted above Bierbaron? As told im kinda new to this kind of tempodeck - but is Confidant and Mongoose really good enough?
Would you cut Snapcasters entirely?

Greetings

[sumbahdy]

I feel like Stifle is a must in TA. Without it, other people just pop their fetchlands and wasteland my lands when ever they want. :frown:

If I want to play a Stifle-less version of TA, I would rather play BUG control. But that's another story.

I second the motion on this statement. For reference here is the list I'm testing:

3x Bayou
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tombstalker
4x Brainstorm
1x Darkblast
3x Daze
1x Diabolic Edict
4x Force of Will
1x Go For The Throat
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Ponder
2x Snuff Out
2x Spell Snare
4x Stifle

My understanding of Team America is it is a tempo deck much like RUG only it runs more free spells and no burn spells. Both decks operate the same way: Stifle fetch, waste their lands, land a delver or another crit and ride it to victory. Black providing the creature hate plus others and especially, Tombstalker to close out games early much like burn does with red. I've been following both this thread and the BUG thread and could honestly say that they are both two different decks. Running a hybrid version will lead to confusion as to what role would you be playing since BUG wants to win midgame to late as compared to TA that almost always have no lategame plan. Pretty much linear plan if I play first and the Stifle+Waste sequence have been achieved, most likely we will win.

@Philipp802
How did your first list go compared to the changes that you have made? I noticed your running Snaps instead of Stalkers. How is Liliana in the approach that you have taken?

[aznepyon7]

Ive done a few changes from my list above:

First of all I cut one Ponder and 1 Land for 2 Liliana of the Veil. - This turned out to be great, it won me so many of games

Now I want to change something else again, I want to fit in a few Spell Snares just because of the pure power of them, but what to cut?
Id suggest 1 Snappy and 1 Hymn to Tourach for 2 Spell Snares? Maybe a Ghastly Demise for a third?
What do you think?

Do NOT take out Hymn. It's a central card to TA and you should never be running less than 4.

I would add a land back in; 19 is too little for 2 planeswalker and Snapcaster.

I would consider taking out one Snapcaster for a snare. I would stick with 5 creature removal though. I still think one of the Ghastly should be a non-GY dependent removal.

[Einherjer]

I did cut 1 Hymn and 1 Snapcaster and put in 2 Spell Snares. I tested quite alot on Cockatrice and in the end I gotta say I mostly have some problems with Dredge, which may be just because Im not as experienced with that MU - in any way Maverick isnt that much of a problem with 6 SB-cards : 3 Perish 3 Massacre - Stoneblade isnt too hard as well.

As told I kind of never lost, but this may be just because the people on Cockatrice tend to suck^^

When I played versus RUG Tempo TA was a lil stronger - but when I draw Volraths Stronghold I wasnt able to lose any more^^

Greetings

[catmint]

Playing against dredge is tough... I would not bother too much about g1... it can't be won consistantly. If you are lucky you can force his enabler and waste his land. .. still need some early creatures too finish it up in time.

The postboard tactic depends on your hate. In BUG i play 2 surgical, 2 extirpate, 4 snapcaster to reuse extraction and 4 deed (for the tokens). An early goyf is very good versus dredge, so you can start to kill them while slowing them down.

My general advise versus LEDless dredge.

- obviously counter the enablers if possible to keep them stuck (do not keep counters for dread return... at that point it is usually already too late)

- start beating down asap!

- In general extirpate effects should be used on their nacromoebas and ichorids... Depending on the situation if it is too late you also have to go for bridges/cabal therapy...

To use an extirpate effect on an early dredger only makes sense if you have some pressure AND another extirpate for the second dredger to ruin them before they get something going... but keep in mind they can also breakthrough or use other effects to draw and discard their hole hand including bridges/ichorids without a single dredge.

- Do not think 1 Relic/Crypt wins you the game. You need some other disruption and pressure to. Also it is all about the timing to crack it late enough to do some serious damage without giving them too much value out of dredging which you cannot handle....

[NathanS2k]

What would you suggest considering my list posted above Bierbaron? As told im kinda new to this kind of tempodeck - but is Confidant and Mongoose really good enough?
Would you cut Snapcasters entirely?

Greetings

I suggest you look into Dark-Thresh decks as they use Nimble Mongoose and Dark Confidants instead of Tombstalkers.

[aznepyon7]

Anyone tried running Misdirection on sideboard? I've been considering whether to run them or not.

Seems kinda fun to try that out at the very least especially since swerving STP/PtE or Hymn seems pretty awesome. Any one else know other uses for this card and what MU it might be good for?

[wcm8]

I haven't posted in a while, but figured I'd share my list I played this weekend at a GPT in Pittsburgh (@Mr. Nice Guy's in Oakmont for those in the area). I went undefeated in the Swiss, but lost in the first round in the top 8 vs. Reanimator (who then went on to win the whole thing).

20 Lands (8 fetch, 2 bayou, 2 trop, 4 underground, 4 waste)
4 Goyf
3 Tombstalker
3 V. Clique
4 FoW
4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Hymn
2 Liliana otV
2 Dismember
2 GftT
1 Sylvan Library
3 Maelstrom Pulse

SB:
4 Hydroblast (!)
2 Jace TMS
2 Thrun, the last troll
1 Massacre
1 Darkblast
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
2 Perish

I correctly assumed that there would be a lot of Maverick, UW Stoneblade, and a smattering of Burn and my card choices reflect that. I played Hydroblast over Spell Pierce because I (incorrectly) assumed there would be some Goblin Players -- Pierce is probably just a better choice. Maelstrom Pulse is what this deck needs to consistently beat Jace/Elspeth/Batterskull, and Clique is amazing when people are trying to jam Stoneforge. However, I only faced one of those decks in the Swiss (Burn) and went 2-0 against it thanks to some lucky hands (game 1: double hymn, followed by Goyf and Clique beatdown, game 2: timely Hydroblasts for his PoPs and Goyf and Stalker beatdown).

I cut Daze entirely for two reasons: 1) people in my metagame aren't terrible and don't walk into it, so once they see the first Stifle/Wasteland they play around a card I don't even have and 2) the card isn't very good against Maverick/Stoneblade anyways because they quickly ramp into a lot of mana. I still kept Stifle because it is needed to slow down opposing plays and is a useful utility card. It was also instrumental in beating Rich Shay piloting Hive Mind in the Swiss.

I did 2-0 vs. Dredge, but that was mostly due to terrible luck on his part with mulliganing to 5 game 1 and not finding any action when he did finally get his deck running in game 2.

I took the 'Dredge gamble' by not playing any graveyard hate, and unfortunately it did not pay off since I ended up getting stomped by Reanimator. I think that in a large tournament, playing some amount of hate is necessary because otherwise this deck has very few ways to interact with that strategy. My SB was probably over-compensating for my expected DTB and should have been more balanced.

Going into Indianapolis, I am not sure which direction I want to go with this deck. The way I see it, there are three valid options:

A) Delver -- max out on Daze and Stifle, focus entirely on winning the early game
B) Clique -- surprisingly good in the current meta, and in this deck I feel is often more efficient/effective than Snapcaster
C) Snapcaster -- lends more late game power, but often sits in your hand looking dumb.

Option A can be incredibly powerful assuming everything goes as planned, but Delver can become quickly underwhelming and doesn't seem to fit in as smoothly as it does in RUG.

Option B is good assuming you face a lot of control and combo decks. However, Clique isn't too hot against aggro or opposing tempo decks which can make up a significant portion of the metagame in a large tournament. I know there is a lot of debate about whether Clique is even that good anymore, but it has been pretty good for me in testing by providing both a clock and disruption.

Option C seems fine, with Snapcaster taking the slot of Predicts in older lists as a source of long term card advantage. However, it is clunky and often 'win more' rather than just 'win'.

In any case, having BUG move off the radar as a DTB seems like a good thing for those of us who like casting Hymn to Tourach, because decks will become more focused on beating other strategies. But even Hymn to Tourach isn't quite the sacred cow it once was -- I could see a list dropping it in favor of Thoughtseize to be more immediately aggressive.

[wcm8]

Do NOT take out Hymn. It's a central card to TA and you should never be running less than 4.

I would like to challenge this notion. I did some testing today with a tempo build of the deck and found that Thoughtseize might just be better than Hymn right now.

Why? Well we are seeing lots of decks that rely on resolving a specific sequence of plays. Hierarch -> KotR. SfM -> Batterskull. Any combo deck's enabler -> Win. Against opposing control decks, it grants you information as well as plucking out their big play/removal/counterspell.

The other not-so-irrelevant fact is that plenty of decks run Spell Snare and/or Daze, against which Hymn is often just a dud play. The card advantage can also become irrelevant over time as soon as a U/x build hits enough mana to start Snappcastering back its removal.

Late game, the point is either moot (both players in topdeck mode) OR seize is better because you can get rid of their removal pre-emptive to your deployment of another threat.

I could arguably see Inquisition of Kozilek being in place of 'seize or as a 2/2 or 3/1 split, but aside from burn decks the life loss is mostly irrelevant. Thoughtseize is not typically a card used to support a late game strategy, and hence why I would run it with a build running Delver.

If you go wayyyyyy back to the beginning of this thread and look at the discussion there, Sinkhole was originally being played over Hymn as a way to supplement the stifle/daze/wasteland plan. As the format progressed to having a lot of Aether Vial decks and other faster creature decks, Sinkhole became bad and was dropped in favor of Hymn. THEN, when Spell Pierce was printed, people either dropped Thoughtseize or Hymn in favor of that card to go along with the mana denial strategy.

Today we have plenty of new toys that contribute to the deck's original game plan of disruption backed by fast beats. Delver's success is undeniable in RUG builds, and I think Thoughtseize can complement this fast tempo strategy better than the random nature of Hymn.

Obviously more testing needs to be done, and there's no denying that a t2/3 Hymn can be absolutely busted. But I don't think Hymn is a sacred cow that can't be considered up for the chopping block.

[NathanS2k]

wcm8, my current TA list, I also dropped Delvers in favor of Cliques. There were games where I land an early Delver and it never flipped until 4 or 5 turns after. By then, it was too late. Or sometimes after I land an early Delver only to get killed.

My current list looks like this:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Koziliek
2 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
9 Fetchlands

I lowered Ponder count because most of the time, I end up trying to dig for answers to creatures or counters to protect my dudes. So I end up using Inquisition of Kozilek and just ripped whatever they have from their hand instead.

[wcm8]

wcm8, my current TA list, I also dropped Delvers in favor of Cliques. There were games where I land an early Delver and it never flipped until 4 or 5 turns after. By then, it was too late. Or sometimes after I land an early Delver only to get killed.

My current list looks like this:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Koziliek
2 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
9 Fetchlands

I lowered Ponder count because most of the time, I end up trying to dig for answers to creatures or counters to protect my dudes. So I end up using Inquisition of Kozilek and just ripped whatever they have from their hand instead.

The list seems fine, I'm assuming the other 4 cards are stifles? (You have only 56 cards listed)

If you are playing a list that is slightly slower, I would strongly consider running at least 1 or 2 Maelstrom Pulse to hit anything that slips through your wall of counterspells/discard.

Delver is certainly a frustrating card -- at times it either wins the game completely on its own, or is a terrible topdeck/doesn't flip for 5 turns like you said. But I think its power is undeniable and can be best supported in a list running plenty other tempo options, especially 1CMC targeted discard. I am testing a list dropping Hymn entirely in favor of Thoughtseize, and so far I am really liking it.

[aznepyon7]

I would like to challenge this notion. I did some testing today with a tempo build of the deck and found that Thoughtseize might just be better than Hymn right now.

Why? Well we are seeing lots of decks that rely on resolving a specific sequence of plays. Hierarch -> KotR. SfM -> Batterskull. Any combo deck's enabler -> Win. Against opposing control decks, it grants you information as well as plucking out their big play/removal/counterspell.

The other not-so-irrelevant fact is that plenty of decks run Spell Snare and/or Daze, against which Hymn is often just a dud play. The card advantage can also become irrelevant over time as soon as a U/x build hits enough mana to start Snappcastering back its removal.

Late game, the point is either moot (both players in topdeck mode) OR seize is better because you can get rid of their removal pre-emptive to your deployment of another threat.

I could arguably see Inquisition of Kozilek being in place of 'seize or as a 2/2 or 3/1 split, but aside from burn decks the life loss is mostly irrelevant. Thoughtseize is not typically a card used to support a late game strategy, and hence why I would run it with a build running Delver.

If you go wayyyyyy back to the beginning of this thread and look at the discussion there, Sinkhole was originally being played over Hymn as a way to supplement the stifle/daze/wasteland plan. As the format progressed to having a lot of Aether Vial decks and other faster creature decks, Sinkhole became bad and was dropped in favor of Hymn. THEN, when Spell Pierce was printed, people either dropped Thoughtseize or Hymn in favor of that card to go along with the mana denial strategy.

Today we have plenty of new toys that contribute to the deck's original game plan of disruption backed by fast beats. Delver's success is undeniable in RUG builds, and I think Thoughtseize can complement this fast tempo strategy better than the random nature of Hymn.

Obviously more testing needs to be done, and there's no denying that a t2/3 Hymn can be absolutely busted. But I don't think Hymn is a sacred cow that can't be considered up for the chopping block.

I'm trying to shy away from the tempo version of TA seeing how that isn't as effective as RUG and that the tempo version has a harder time against popular decks in the meta such as Maverick. I incorporated 2 Jaces and a Library for better game mid-range and dropped some faster stuff. Because of the addition of Jace and the potential for Cliques, I don't think running 4 Dazes is a good idea. I would probably go down to 3. Spell Pierces/Snares are getting more enticing.

If a Hymn were to be cut for a T1 discard, I can see that as a viable option (though I'm still skeptical) but I don't like the idea of replacing it with a counter. Unfortunately there needs to be a way to up the blue count to at least 18. I'm not a fan of stifles and kinda iffy about Delver. I'd also like to keep the Ponder count at no higher than 3. Jaces can be sacked early game if need be but I'd much rather not.

I'm also not planning to run Liliana. There's just not enough room and I don't know what to take out. Adding another higher costing card doesn't help the situation.


wcm8, my current TA list, I also dropped Delvers in favor of Cliques. There were games where I land an early Delver and it never flipped until 4 or 5 turns after. By then, it was too late. Or sometimes after I land an early Delver only to get killed.

My current list looks like this:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Koziliek
2 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
9 Fetchlands

I lowered Ponder count because most of the time, I end up trying to dig for answers to creatures or counters to protect my dudes. So I end up using Inquisition of Kozilek and just ripped whatever they have from their hand instead.

Unless I'm counting wrong, you have a blue count of 16. You really need at least 18 for a consistent FoW. That's one reason I run Delver - to have a higher blue count. Maintaining a high enough blue count is a problem for TA unless you're running stifles and 3+ Ponders.

[wcm8]

My tempo list for reference:

20 lands
4 Goyf
4 Delver
3 Tombstalker
4 FoW
4 Daze (1 could be cut for a Sylvan Library or maybe even Life from the Loam, not sure)
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise (could arguably be a different removal, but having more answers to a T1 Delver/Lackey/Mom is crucial)
2 Liliana otV

SB:
2 Massacre
2 Submerge
2 Pernicious Deed (this mix of removal handles Maverick effectively)
3/4 Spell Pierce
(possible 1 Umezawa's Jitte)
5/6 Graveyard Hate (mixture of Extirpate, Spellbomb, Crypt, Fae Macabre)

This deck is just as aggressive as RUG, and for the most part has a better Maverick matchup, especially thanks to the SB options. I also think it is better against UW Blade thanks to Thoughtseize. Combo should be a walk in the park for the most part. Slightly overloading on GY hate means you shouldn't punt to those matchups, and a mixture of hate allows you to bring in the best option when you don't need _all_ of it (eg. Extirpate vs. combo decks/thopters/Loam)

Liliana is tailor-made for this deck. Her +1 puts constant pressure on the opponent's hand, as well serving utility as a removal spell. Going forward, I don't think I would play a control deck with black in it without running her because she is just that damn good and can steal games.

[NathanS2k]

Opps....yes, the other 4 cards forgot to add were Stifles.

[wizard_of_gore]

Guys, i want to hear your opinion about delver of secrets?
All 3 days i test him, but he is so weak in team america (i tested against various tier 1, 1.5, 2.0 decks). I mean, he can be good ONLY in certain situation and most of the times he is siting on the table and do NOTHING. He is for sure agressive card that forces you to build your deck around it, but team america is not that kind of "agressive" deck - he is not so good like in RUG or U/R (he abuses RED much better than other colors, better to say). He's awfull, to situational and conditional and i don't know why so much people forced him in team america - probably because he is new flavor in tempo decks... but in BUG tempo decks it doesn't work. I don't know what i'm playing wrong, but i'm trying to play typical aggro/control/tempo strategy which i used to play with standard list (goyfs, tombstalkers, stifles, dazes, snares, fow, hymn, ponders, removals, wastelands...) but delver simply is not the "guy". Even in matchups where we have good chance of winning, now i loose to them. Something is wrong, or just i don't have luck?

[wcm8]

Try my list I just posted. Using Thoughtseize instead of Hymn helps Delver get there more often. Just trying to roll with 4 Goyf/4 Stalker seems sub-optimal in the current metagame (too much flashbacked removal among other things), and I think until they print a better option the best choices are Delver, Clique, or Snapcaster.

[wizard_of_gore]

Don't worry, i tried with thoughtseizes and hymns. It doesn't work. I had better results with goyfs/stalker/clique/snapcaster combination creatures than delver in my 60 cards. Much better results. I can understand that people love to play him, but i will stay away from it. It doesn't fit in deck. I really don't see point why we would force him to play because "meta play more removals" when he's bad on his own. He is bomb with red, but not good enough for our kind of deck even if both decks looks similar to each other. That's from my experience.

[GtF]

I've always liked thoughtseize over hymn and still do. If you don't have significant pressure, the tempo loss from paying 2 mana to do what hymn does is too much. Hymning on an empty board with this deck is awful. You aren't trying to play an attrition game, hence the lack of bobs. Not to mention how bad it can be when you draw it vs. dredge/reanimator, a spot where thoughtseize is incredible. It might be slightly worse vs very redundant decks like GW maverick, but I think you are better off addressing those with your sideboard. I'm not even sure it is worse there anyway.
As for delver, I haven't played with it but I can easily see it not being good enough. This discussion has been had many times with the low number of creatures in the deck, people want to play more so that you don't have those games where you are without a threat. The problem has always been that you need the creatures to hit really hard and do a lot, since so much of the deck is disruption and there's no actual card advantage. Haven't tested personally with delver but if it wasn't good enough for this particular deck, it wouldn't surprise me.

[wcm8]

I'm still up in the air about what is the best creature configuration, but a 3/2 flyer attacking on t2 is no joke when its backed up by disruption. Goyf and Tombstalker provide nothing aside from a clock (and occasionally defense), and the absolute earliest either of them will start swinging is on turn 3. Delver is just another beater than can come out swinging faster than the other two. If he ends up eating an StP, that's usually fine because it will just be replaced by a bigger monster.

Because this deck isn't really looking to win a long game, Snapcaster isn't always that good. Clique is sometime great, but suffers from costing 3 mana -- this makes it more of late-game card for this deck since you typically want to be aggressive with your Wastelands and/or might not even have 3 lands out besides.

Delver is obviously best played on turn 1 and gets progressively less useful the longer the game goes on (much like Stifle and Daze). Perhaps the deck would be better playing a split of Delver/Clique, perhaps 2/2 or 3/1. I'm really not sure, because to be honest
I've had success with all sort of different configurations.

[NathanS2k]

I'm kind of confuse what cards to use now. The deck list that I previously posted felt pretty bad after hours of play testing against my friend's Reanimator deck. Prior to that, my deck list was this: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7475&iddeck=54283 and I beat the pants off Reanimator easily. Maybe I'll just go back to that list and lowered land count to 19 to add the 4th Ponder in to increase the chance of Delver flipping.

[wcm8]

The key to beating reanimator is actually playing a decent sideboard for it. I've skimped on gy hate in the past and it sometimes ends up being a huge mistake. With so many grave strategies in tier 1 and tier 2 decks these days, I think a minimum of 4 hate cards going into an unknown field is essential. I'm playing 6 slots (2 extirpate, 2 faeries macabre, 2 nihil spellbomb, in addition to 3 spell pierce) in my SB right now and it's been great to feel like these matchups are auto-byes. As with any combo deck though, sometimes they can just get a nuts unbeatable hand.

I've kind of reversed my opinion on Delver again. I did some additional testing tonight with some friends playing decks I hadnt tested against in a while and Delver was very underwhelming. I'm cutting them again for 3 Cliques and the 4th Ponder. Clique is doing a lot of duty these days by smashing UW Blade and helping a lot vs. combo. It's a card that, to me, seems very well positioned right now as a way to deal with Batterskull and/or Jace.

Thoughtseize and Liliana were still great though. Unless the metagame shifts significantly before then, I don't think I'll be playing Hymn to Tourach at GP Indianapolis. Seize just seems so much better at fighting opposing tempo and control strategies.

[aznepyon7]

The key to beating reanimator is actually playing a decent sideboard for it. I've skimped on gy hate in the past and it sometimes ends up being a huge mistake. With so many grave strategies in tier 1 and tier 2 decks these days, I think a minimum of 4 hate cards going into an unknown field is essential. I'm playing 6 slots (2 extirpate, 2 faeries macabre, 2 nihil spellbomb, in addition to 3 spell pierce) in my SB right now and it's been great to feel like these matchups are auto-byes. As with any combo deck though, sometimes they can just get a nuts unbeatable hand.

I've kind of reversed my opinion on Delver again. I did some additional testing tonight with some friends playing decks I hadnt tested against in a while and Delver was very underwhelming. I'm cutting them again for 3 Cliques and the 4th Ponder. Clique is doing a lot of duty these days by smashing UW Blade and helping a lot vs. combo. It's a card that, to me, seems very well positioned right now as a way to deal with Batterskull and/or Jace.

Thoughtseize and Liliana were still great though. Unless the metagame shifts significantly before then, I don't think I'll be playing Hymn to Tourach at GP Indianapolis. Seize just seems so much better at fighting opposing tempo and control strategies.

What's your current list at the moment? So instead of considering 3 Hymns, you're just going to remove them all?

I think one of the good (or bad) thing about TA is that you can kind of hybrid it to BUG control and change how the deck runs immensely.

I try to do so with 2 Jaces and a Sylvan library. It's been pretty good so far but I would like to change it up a bit. I might take out the Delvers to add in 2 Cliques, a land, and maybe a Liliana. Don't know. Any suggestions? Land count is 21 btw. Spell Pierces are also on the table.

[GtF]

Is Liliana really ever better than jace?
To clarify, obviously in a given situation it can be, but I mean overall.

[aznepyon7]

Is Liliana really ever better than jace?
To clarify, obviously in a given situation it can be, but I mean overall.

In a meta full of Wastelands, Stifles, Aggro/Tempo decks? Yes. The 4 casting cost is a big liability. I float around 21-22 lands to run 2 Jaces in my hybrid TA.

Liliana provides constant pressure and removal a turn earlier which can be essential in tempo to get in that final hit with Goyf or TS without dying. I'd rather run Liliana than Jace against combo (unless my blue count is so low I need to pitch Jace to FoW, but that hasn't happened...).

@Nathan:

Instead of a 4th Ponder, have you tried Sylvan Library? That card is simply awesome and I have been tempted many a times to add in a second. I only run 3 Ponders and 1 Sylvan and I'm much happier than with 4 ponders. Besides library can give you advantage even into mid-game and is very consistent with Delver.

[wcm8]

Is Liliana really ever better than jace?
To clarify, obviously in a given situation it can be, but I mean overall.

In this deck, I'd argue that she is better and fits in more naturally.

Costing 3 vs. 4 is HUGE in a deck that is low on lands to begin with, and is also utilizing Daze and Wasteland. If you want to play Jace, naturally the rest of the deck should follow suit and a lot of the 'tempo' cards don't really mesh well with a strategy looking to get into the late-game. With Liliana, you can still keep the basic 20-land mana base and not struggle to cast her in most situations.

Plus, TA typically lacks late-game bomb cards, so what is Jace really going to brainstorm you into... Stifle? Daze? In this deck, Jace seems like a win-more type of card and doesn't really synergize with the overall strategy.

Now, a Jace or two in the board is a different story. I think if you want to run him MD you will need to do some significant reconfigurations and end up with a list more along the lines of BUG Control.

[wcm8]

Regarding my recent switch from Hymn to Thoughtseize:

Hymn to Tourach
+: can be utterly back-breaking in the early turns, especially if the opponent mulliganed. Most decks can't recover from the 'Hymn, Hymn, I win' sequence. Makes the Burn matchup winnable.
-: random nature can make it randomly terrible instead of randomly awesome. A huge liability if you accidentally play it into a Reanimator player (TA, ANT, various UBx control and Reanimator decks often have the same T1 sequence of plays, so it can be an honest mistake against an unknown opponent). It costs two so is more susceptible to Daze, Spell Pierce, and obviously Spell Snare. It also has tension when you're holding stifle -- ideally you want to cast hymn early, but you also want to be able to cast stifle.

Thoughtseize
+: Almost always great turn 1 play, especially if you're not holding stifle. Even better if you have Daze too. Often better than Hymn if you're on the draw since you can pre-empt their T2 play, and typically better than Hymn on the play if you're against an opposing tempo deck. Barring opposing counter magic, will generally always get you what you want, when you want. Often ensures that the way is clear to start deploying threats. Especially good versus Stoneforge Decks (either you get their SFM pre-emptively, or take their batterskull, leaving them with a Squire. Or you can get their Snapcaster before they can cast it or they have any useful targets.) Still useful against Graveyard-based decks.
-: -2 Life can be relevant (but still worth it over Inquisition if your meta has Jace/FoW/Batterskull/etc). Doesn't provide actual card advantage, though it is fantastic in matchups where card quality matters.

Both cards are great, and either is an acceptable choice. I've just been liking the pin-point nature of Thoughtseize better.

[NathanS2k]

@Nathan:

Instead of a 4th Ponder, have you tried Sylvan Library? That card is simply awesome and I have been tempted many a times to add in a second. I only run 3 Ponders and 1 Sylvan and I'm much happier than with 4 ponders. Besides library can give you advantage even into mid-game and is very consistent with Delver.

I've tried it. But being a singleton, I don't rely on it helping me in the mid-game. But it is obviously good if I can get it out. So instead, I play a little more removal spells. This also increased my instant/sorcery count, to increase chance of Delver-flipping goodness.

[NathanS2k]

In this deck, I'd argue that she is better and fits in more naturally.

Costing 3 vs. 4 is HUGE in a deck that is low on lands to begin with, and is also utilizing Daze and Wasteland. If you want to play Jace, naturally the rest of the deck should follow suit and a lot of the 'tempo' cards don't really mesh well with a strategy looking to get into the late-game. With Liliana, you can still keep the basic 20-land mana base and not struggle to cast her in most situations.

Plus, TA typically lacks late-game bomb cards, so what is Jace really going to brainstorm you into... Stifle? Daze? In this deck, Jace seems like a win-more type of card and doesn't really synergize with the overall strategy.

Now, a Jace or two in the board is a different story. I think if you want to run him MD you will need to do some significant reconfigurations and end up with a list more along the lines of BUG Control.

Agree....my exact reason for cutting out Jace. Even though, there were situations were Jace was needed when my Reanimator opponent got out Iona for black and puts me in a tough situation.

wcm8, have you tried 19 lands with the Delver build? Being the 3cc drop is our highest cost and we only have 2 of them in the deck. I'm actually thinking about it.

[wcm8]

I actually dropped Delver entirely in favor of 3 Cliques. My current list at the moment:

1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Snuff Out
4 Force of Will

The third Clique could and maybe should be the 4th Daze. But I like to always have a threat available, and Clique is so damn good right now with all the Stoneforge Mystics running around (the ideal play is to flash it in in response to their SFM activation, usually wasting them a turn). It's also often good as a way to kill Jace. In the Mental Misstep era, I think 4 Goyf/4 Stalker was the best configuration since you could more reliably protect your threats. Now I think you want Thoughtseize and Clique to clear the way for your beats. Hymn just doesn't seem to be pulling its weight as much these days, except against decks where TA is already favored.

Pulse in the main is great. You often aren't going to be casting removal until turn 3 anyways, and having an out to a resolved Batterskull, Jace, Elspeth, or random crap like Ensnaring Bridge is nice. Even against creature decks, the biggest threats are more often their artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers instead of their creatures. I'd rather destroy the Sword of F&F than the Stoneforge Mystic that fetched it. If tribal aggro decks come back in vogue this might be too slow, but right now there is plenty to warrant Pulse's inclusion.

Snuff Out seems great right now because it doesn't tie up your mana at all. So you can still kill a t1 mother/lackey/hierarch/arbor and still have stifle up or cast a t1 ponder/thoughtseize. Might be worth it to fit even more back into the deck. I realize that the life loss from Dismember can be more easily mitigated. But being safe from Daze and safer from Spell Pierce vs. Delver decks and always being able to reliably kill Goyf/KotR/etc. outweighs the benefit of being able to kill Confidant and Tombstalker (which are not seeing much play these days). Also, tapping out to cast Go for the Throat/Smother/whatever on turn 2 is often a poor use of mana during the critical early turns, not to mention so many decks are playing Spell Snare/Daze these days.

*Depending on where the meta shifts, adding Engineered Explosives back in as a maindeck/SB removal option might be worth considering. It is slightly faster than Deed and can selectively not kill your own threats.

[antesha]

hey people

Here is my current build, it lost tempo but now is very tough mid range deck. I'm not often on this forum and it seems to me that all posted builds are close to TA tempo archetype, so I dont know if I should even post this build here. If not sry..
But please share your thoughts about this build...


Polluted Delta - 4
Misty Rainforest - 3
Verdant Catacombs - 2
Underground Sea - 4
Tropical Island - 3
Bayou - 1
Wasteland - 4
Creeping Tar Pit - 2

Snapcaster Mage - 4
Tarmogoyf - 4

Force of Will - 4
Brainstorm - 4
Spell Snare - 2
Spell Pierce - 2
Ponder - 1
Go for the Throat - 1
Dismember - 1
Ghastly Demise - 1
Smother - 1
Hymn to Tourach - 4
Inquisition of Kozilek - 2
Thoughtseize - 2
Life from the Loam - 1
Pernicius Deed - 1
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - 2
Liliana of the Veil - 1

ty

[antesha]

hey people

Here is my current build, it lost tempo but now is very tough mid range deck. I'm not often on this forum and it seems to me that all posted builds are close to TA tempo archetype, so I dont know if I should even post this build here. If not sry..
But please share your thoughts about this build...


Polluted Delta - 4
Misty Rainforest - 3
Verdant Catacombs - 2
Underground Sea - 4
Tropical Island - 3
Bayou - 1
Wasteland - 4
Creeping Tar Pit - 2

Snapcaster Mage - 4
Tarmogoyf - 4

Force of Will - 4
Brainstorm - 4
Spell Snare - 2
Spell Pierce - 2
Ponder - 1
Go for the Throat - 1
Dismember - 1
Ghastly Demise - 1
Smother - 1
Hymn to Tourach - 4
Inquisition of Kozilek - 2
Thoughtseize - 2
Life from the Loam - 1
Pernicius Deed - 1
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - 2
Liliana of the Veil - 1

ty

just realized that there is bug control thread, sry for spamming..

[wcm8]

THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO THE TEAM AMERICA SIDEBOARD

I started listing out cards up for possible sideboard inclusion for my own benefit to prepare for GP Indianapolis, but then got carried away and figured I would describe their pros and cons as a reference for all players looking to pick up the deck.

The maindeck options for Team America are mostly solidified (for now, barring some amazing new printings), with some wiggle room in terms of card selection and number. What isn't really set in stone is the sideboard thanks to a constantly shifting metagame. Luckily, BUG offers perhaps the greatest variety of useful sideboard options, and most problematic matchups can be dealt with via something in these colors.

This guide goes over all the cards I considered as possible options for the BUG tempo deck we all know and love, and frames their usefulness in relation to the archetype. I obviously did not include anything that wouldn't make sense to play here, though I am sure I forgot some possible options -- please let me know and I can add them to the post.

I divided it up by sections of functionality. There are no hard fast rules about how to build the sideboard (e.g. 4 Anti-GY slots, 3 Sweepers, etc.), as it really just depends on what you are expecting to see and what maindeck decisions you made. However, just be sure you know what is going out for what is coming in. Also be aware that many of the cards in TA are better on the play versus the draw and vice versa (e.g. Daze), and the deck should be adjusted in sideboard games accordingly. For more information on this topic, refer to any of the numerous guides about general Sideboarding out there.

If people want, I could create a similar guide for maindeck choices, but I think this thread itself answers most of those questions. I *do* think the primer on the first page could use an update, since the days of casting Sinkhole are mostly over. But who knows, old tech has a habit of coming back in Legacy. (ed. note: Interestingly enough, Dan Signorigni's most recent top 8 Grand Prix list sported 4 of the classic land destruction spell in his sideboard. Further proof that unique cards don't really die in Legacy, they just sleep.)

Top Fifteen Sideboard Cards to Consider Playing Right Now (December 2013)
1. Golgari Charm
2. Disfigure
3. Grafdigger's Cage
4. Thoughtseize
5. Spell Pierce
6. Vendilion Clique
7. Creeping Tar Pit
8. Liliana of the Veil
9. Sylvan Library
10. Krosan Grip
11. Stifle
12. Maelstrom Pulse
13. Winter Orb
14. Null Rod
15. Envelop

Land Destruction

Sinkhole, Stifle -- Generally you would see these in the main deck, but a strong case can be made for playing them in the sideboard as a way to combat midrange goodstuff.decs that are trying to ramp into 3/4-mana spells. Dan Signorigni recently proved how powerful this approach is with his Top 8 Grand Prix Denver list that sported 4 Sinkhole in the sideboard. Stifle is particularly good since it does many other important things beyond just nuking fetchlands.
Winter Orb -- This card fulfills a similar function as Sinkhole, without needing to eat as many sideboard slots. 2-3 can really hinder control and midrange strategies, whereas Team America is barely affected thanks to Deathrite Shaman and Daze. Like Sinkhole, this card made its mainstream debut in Grand Prix Top 8, this time piloted by Hove Thießen at Grand Prix Strasbourg.

Counterspells:

Spell Pierce -- seems like the best middle-of-the-road option. It can become useless as the game goes on, but our deck is concerned with the early game. Good enough to be considered for the maindeck.
Dispel -- very nice to have against targeted removal or a lethal Price of Progress. Somewhat useful vs. combo decks. It is very useful against Control decks that will afford to pay for Spell Pierce later on.
Envelop -- answers Miracle's bombs like Terminus or Entreat the Angels, and also counters Show and Tell. Worth considering if these are present in your metagame.
Disrupt -- As good as drawing a card AND countering a spell is, this seems simply too narrow and ineffective. Outdated tech, but included for possible consideration in a warped metagame.
Flusterstorm -- we don't really have much of a problem with Storm decks, and thanks to black discard, forcing a threat through via a counterwar isn't really something this deck wants or needs to be doing. We also aren't going to be recurring it via Snapcaster. It seems better suited for Vintage or for blue Legacy decks that are extremely soft to Storm (ie. not us).
Mindbreak Trap -- see above.
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast -- We are pretty good against Goblins as it is, and Burn can mostly be answered with Spell Pierce. However, U/R Delver is a very real deck, so these may still deserve serious consideration despite their narrow nature.
Divert/Misdirection -- Randomly awesome, but narrow. Not sure if they really deserve slots unless you have a lot of players casting Hymn to Tourach in your metagame. Again, winning counterwars can be side-stepped by simply using targeted discard.
Counterspell -- very basic, but gets the job done. Not bad in control matchups since they are mostly playing around your taxing counters and might not expect a hard counter aside from FoW. Mana Leak or Negate are also a possibilities, though to me seem weaker in the matchups where you'd want a 2cmc counter.
Countersquall -- a Negate that also exerts some pressure. Unlikely inclusion.
Swan Song -- the drawback is relevant for us, unfortunately. But it does hit a lot of the cards that give us problems. I think this is a card meant more for hard control and combo.

Supplemental Discard:

Hymn to Tourach/Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek -- You should be playing some number of these in the maindeck, but having additional discard in the sideboard is completely fine. Counterspells will probably be competing for the same slots, so running a mixture of the two in the SB is also a valid option. Duress is another option, and that fact that it can't be hit by Misdirection is relevant against some opponents. These are one of the main benefits of running black as your secondary control color, and help side-step getting into counterwars (a losing proposition for a deck without much source of real card advantage). If Mind Twist ever gets unbanned, this might be a good singleton to have.

Mind Control Effects:

Gilded Drake, Mind Harness, Threads of Disloyalty, Sower of Temptation, Control Magic -- None of these are particularly exciting when we have Black removal options, though they certainly swing the game around. These cards are more useful in UR/x decks that can't effectively answer big green creatures. Of these options, I think Sower deserves the most consideration even despite its fragility. Stealing an Emrakul is awesome. Gilded Drake can be useful against Show and Tell and Reanimator decks.

Anti-Artifact/Enchantment

Energy Flux -- Affinity gets owned just as badly by Pernicious Deed. MUD/Stax variants aren't really common. Worth considering in a heavily warped metagame.
Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild -- we want to permantly answer artifacts, not just buy a turn. This isn't Vintage.
Null Rod -- not too bad against Affinity, some MUD decks, Thopters, Painter/Stone, Sensei's Divining Top, and marginally useful against equipment-based aggro decks. I would also bring it in against Storm combo, since it will shut off Lion's Eye Diamond and Lotus Petal.
Seal of Primordium/Krosan Grip -- Seal comes down a turn sooner, can pre-empt a Bloodmoon/Choke/Back to Basics, and has other subtle advantages over Grip such as growing Tarmogoyf. That said, if you are needing these more for control matchups, the near-uncounterability of Grip might be better. I did not seriously consider Nature's Claim because giving your opponent life is not something this deck generally wants to be doing.
Putrefy -- even with the instant speed factored in, I think Maelstrom Pulse is better if you are looking for a versatile removal option.
Trygon Predator -- reusable and doubles as a threat (and carries Jitte like a champ), but a) doesn't have an immediate effect, and b) is obviously susceptible to removal before he hits. However it can really steal the game in certain matchups. A worthy metagame consideration, now just might not be its time.
Back to Nature/Harmonic Convergence -- if you really feel like beating your local Enchantress player.

Sweepers:

Pernicious Deed -- Extremely powerful and versatile. Yes, it's slow. Despite that, it can lead to blow-outs or a reversal of a losing board state. Arguably the best black/green spell ever printed (not that the competition is that fierce) (edit: pretty sure Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman now take that award), and perhaps the best sweeper card for that matter. So strong, in fact, that going completely towards the control side of the spectrum to abuse it is a valid strategy in certain metagames. Has utility against tons of random decks, and in some cases is the absolute best sideboard card against them. Doesn't kill our Tombstalkers. Unfortunately, this card is a bit too slow in a format as fast as modern-day Legacy.
Perish/Nature's Ruin/Virtue's Ruin -- Of the three, Perish seems the best because it kills Thrun, which is a problematic threat seeing play these days. I realize Virtue's Ruin still hits the majority of Maverick, but I tend to see more decks running Green threats than White threats these days... you also don't want to lose to Elves, do you? Also used to be a great answer against Progenitus decks, though those aren't seeing much play lately.
Massacre -- It clears out most of G/W Maverick (including the very annoying Mother of Runes), letting you pick off the stragglers with targeted removal, while also leaving your Tarmogoyfs unscathed. I often see Maverick/Bant/DnT players overextend with their little dudes only to get crushed by a timely Massacre. It's also decent against UW/x Blade, killing off most of their creatures (including the annoying and dangerous Geist of St. Traft) without being a target for Spell Snare. And obviously a bomb against Deadguy Ale/Death and Taxes or any other W/x weenie aggro variant.
Consuming Vapors -- not exactly a 'sweeper', but potentially 2-for-1s or at least stalls them for a turn on a now-empty board. I do like the card advantage and time that the life gain can buy you, but I dislike the 4cmc. If you really want to go out of your way to play the control role, this slot is okay and can be considered along with Sower of Temptation as high CMC bombs.
Damnation -- Eh... costing 4 makes it a hard sell for our deck. I would consider the more cost-efficient sweepers/Pernicious Deed over this one despite its non-conditional nature. Also, Massacre often accomplishes the same thing against many tribal aggro decks if you are forced to board in a 4cmc sweeper.
Engineered Explosives -- when the meta calls for it, this card is arguably better than Pernicious Deed thanks to its lower cost. However, it seems like most aggro decks have creatures all over the CMC spectrum, which generally makes it less of a blow-out. If Fast Zoo comes back in force or is heavily played in your meta, this should be your first sweeper for consideration since it can lead to an easy 3-for-1. It *might* be pretty good against U/Rx delver decks but I haven't really tested it in this matchup.
Llawan, Cephalid Empress -- Is Merfolk even a deck anymore? Even when it was, we had better options than this clunky 4-drop. It *does* answer Progenitus and some reanimation targets, but that hardly makes it seem worth it.
Hibernation -- For the most part, Perish is better as an answer to Green/Progenitus, but Hibernation is also an answer to Enchantress (although Deed is better here unless they have Karmic Justice). The instant speed nature can sometimes be relevant. Too narrow by my estimation.
Golgari Charm -- A versatile card that will mostly be used for it's mode of killing an army of X/1s. Mega-useful against Elves, Goblins, Maverick, and Lingering Souls. All 3 modes are incredibly useful in a variety of matchups. Modern TA decks should be running 2-3 of these.
Marsh Casualties -- a one-sided Nausea effect that can occasionally be kicked to kill off bigger creatures. Unfortunately, it being Sorcery speed reduces its power. Golgari Charm is generally better for its added utility.
Toxic Deluge -- the life cost is relevant (often, won't Infest do the same thing?), but the advantage here is that it hits EVERY color of creature. So you can bring it in against Merfolk and Goblins. It could even conceivably kill an Emrakul. This is a card you could arguably run in the maindeck due to the potential for a blow-out.

Targeted Removal/Bounce:

Abrupt Decay -- There's four in the maindeck, right? Answers the majority of Legacy's threats, not just creatures. Uncounterable is icing on the cake.
Disfigure -- an elegant solution to opposing Deathrite Shamans, and still kills plenty of other threats such as Goblin Lackey, Goblin Guide, flipped Delver of Secrets, Stoneforge Mystic, etc.
Dismember -- a Snuff Out that costs 1, but at least it hits Black creatures.
Maelstrom Pulse -- Powerful and versatile, especially when it comes to killing off planeswalkers or token swarms. Worth considering for maindeck inclusion despite its high cmc. Has functional overlap with various slots (eg. Krosan Grip), so it might save you some room to fit in more specific hate while still answering common problems. I would've prefered a functional reprint of Vindicate (which would make this an auto 3-4 in the maindeck), but the occasional 2-for-1 does happen with this card.
Echoing Truth -- I like this card as a possible 1-of. Extremely versatile if only for a turn. Worth considering since it has utility in the Reanimator (Iona on black or whatever) /Dredge (kills tokens without triggering additional BfB zombies) Storm/Belcher (if you think they're going the Empty the Warren's route and don't have a Stifle handy) and other random matchups.
Rushing River/Wipe Away -- First of all, I think Echoing Truth is better as a form of non-conditional bounce, and secondly I think Maelstrom Pulse is better as a form of versatile removal. Just adding these here to be complete. Old tempo builds used to run a single Rushing River as a way to punch through for the last points of damage, but I think this tech is outdated.
Submerge -- Yes, we have black removal, but this card can still be really incredible. We don't need to lean on it as hard as RUG does, but its powerful tempo effect when played at the right time (essentially a free Time Walk, or 'hard' removal when played in response to a shuffle effect) can make it back-breaking. Worth considering despite its narrow clause.
Darkblast -- very very useful if you get it early enough for it to matter. Kills all the annoying X/1 creatures that can be problematic for TA, and can also kill X/2 creatures if wasting a drawstep is worth it. Can kill unflipped Delvers and win Goyf wars, making it not too shabby in the tempo mirror. The main feature of course is its recursion, which has the added benefit of feeding Goyf/Tombstalker. I think its worth it to play 1 or 2 right now, and possibly even shove one into the maindeck.
Diabolic Edict/Doom Blade/Go for the Throat/Smother/Ghastly Demise/Snuff Out - solid options to supplement your removal suite in the aggro matchups. Which is best is mostly metagame dependent. I'm sure at some point a better black removal spell will get printed, but for now these are what we have to work with.
Shriekmaw -- I really want this guy to work, but honestly it's probably more cute than good. It's doubtful that in matchups where we need tons of removal we'll ever ramp up to the point of casting it as an additional threat. However, a few points in his favor: he's an answer to a Shown Emrakul; he doesn't get hit by Inquisition of Kozilek, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, or (generally) Counterbalance; he functions as an additional (evasive) threat in the long game.
Dystopia -- this is better in a deck that can power it out early via Dark Ritual. For TA, cards like Perish or Massacre have a more immediate and powerful effect.
Deathmark/Funeral Charm/Tragic Slip/Other black removal -- I don't think any of these really compare to the above options, just adding them for completion's sake.

Graveyard Hate:

Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb -- great for beating dredge, okay against reanimator, somewhat mediocre in comparison to other options against other GY strategies. Your typical go-to for these sorts of matchups. Nihil is 'better' in a vacuum, but the thing to note here is that often you may be tapping out for Ponder/Brainstorm to find one of these, so the free cost of Crypt can be relevant. Additionally, you may want to hold up mana for counterspells in the early turns (Not just stuff like Spell Pierce -- remember to Stifle Narcomeoba triggers, and Stifle can also stop Animate Dead). If you want 4 of these, running a 2/2 or 3/1 split may be a good idea to help avoid running into problems with Cabal Therapy/Pithing Needle/Echoing Truth.
Deathrite Shaman -- You're playing him in the main, right? Supplement his versatility with other more focused graveyard removal and these sort of decks shouldn't be too much of a problem. This guy also becomes a legitimate threat in the late game thanks to his Grim Lavamancer-esque ability. The life-gain also helps make aggro decks more manageable. He can also help you play bigger CMC cards out of the board or in the main.
Scavenging Ooze -- doubles up as a threat and source of repeatable grave removal. A very powerful card against RUG since it will shrink Mongeese and often outsize Tarmogoyf. The lifegain can also be relevant against aggressive decks. Mana is often tight for this deck and we don't play GSZ, so I wouldn't really want this as our only form of GY hate. It's also usually too slow against Dredge or Reanimator.
Relic of Progenitus -- if the exile&draw trigger were one sided, this would be great. Better than Spellbomb, in fact. However, we need our own GY for Tombstalker and keeping Tarmogoyf at a reasonable size. Not sure if its worth the risk despite how great it can be landed on turn 1.
Extirpate/Surgical Extraction -- Okay, it's true that we aren't abusing Snapcaster, but these are still worth considering since there are plenty of decks right now that lean heavily on one specific interaction. Thopters, High Tide, various combo decks (eg. Painter Stone), Life from the Loam, Wasteland/other annoying land recursion via Crucible of Worlds, Punishing Fire, etc.. Discarding or countering a key spell and then following up with one of these can flip the game in your favor. I think the edge goes ever so slightly to Extirpate for its split second. One thing to note: I really do not think these are worth bringing in against tempo decks, as tempting as hitting a dual land/threat may seem.
Faerie Macabre -- Perhaps the best card against Reanimator, and not entirely useless in other graveyard matchups. Can [rarely] double up as threat (thanks for the Exhume!). Free and virtually uncounterable.
Leyline of the Void -- this isn't Vintage; we generally have several turns to find more reliable hate. You aren't going to be hardcasting this very often/ever, and if you do, it won't be soon enough to matter. I don't think it's worth it.
Yixlid Jailer -- if this actually did something against Reanimator it'd be a great card to consider, but as it is there are more versatile options.
Coffin Purge -- I still think McFae is better against Reanimator due to the uncounterability, and as far as 1cmc targeted grave removal goes Extirpate/Extraction seem better. I'd actually consider Misinformation as a potential way to screw up Reanimator before I'd consider Coffin Purge. Mana is at a premium in TA.
Ravenous Trap -- Fits a role similar to Faerie Macabre while being better against Dredge, however its vulnerability to counterspells/Duress makes it worse against Reanimator (not to mention you aren't always guaranteed to get the free alternate cost in that matchup). Not worth it.
Planar Void - No. We need our own graveyard, and it doesn't remove stuff already there.
Wheel of Sun and Moon/Ground Seal -- we are playing black, so we have better options as far as grave hate goes. Wheel also has an awkward color requirement for our deck. If getting decked by Grindstone or whatever ever becomes a serious concern, running a single Emrakul in the sideboard is a much safer bet.
Loaming Shaman -- Doubles as both a threat and a Crypt, but costing 3 is a bit too slow to consider for GY matchups. If he were a 2/1 that cost 1G, I'd reconsider.
Grafdigger's Cage -- this has the benefit of being splash hate for Snapcaster.dec and GSZ.dec (and Natural Order), but it doesn't seem as effective at actually dealing with Dredge/Reanimator. A possible 1-of, but I'm not that enthusiastic about it especially since we have no way to tutor for it and it's comparitively weaker than other options. A much better card in Vintage.
Bojuka Bog -- on-color, but we aren't running KotR or Crop Rotation. Not much control over when to use it either. Not under real consideration. Would be a true contender if it were a non-basic Swamp for fetching purposes.

Utility, Fringe, Miscellaneous and/or Narrow:

Deathrite Shaman -- listed in the gy hate section, but also has a lot of utility. Listing him here for completion's sake. Play 4 in the maindeck.
True-Name Nemesis -- our own Nimble Mongoose that could be a nice beater to have against decks that run targeted removal and/or Rest in Peace.
Creeping Tar Pit -- more lands against Wastelands is always nice, and it doubles up as an uncounterable threat that can dodge stuff like Supreme Verdict against your control opponents.
Green Sun's Zenith -- this card could be realistically played in the maindeck (1 or 2 copies). We have plenty of great targets: Shaman, Goyf, Ooze, perhaps a miser's Nimble Mongoose, Dryad Arbor (as the 20th/21st land?). It could also increase your sideboard threat density while also finding some juicy targets like the aforementioned Scavenging Ooze or Trygon Predator. Playing this card will shift your deck more towards a midrange strategy, but it's a completely valid consideration.
Phyrexian Metamorph/Phantasmal Image -- these can function as removal for legendary creatures or just become additional beaters. I've considered putting a singleton Image in my maindeck before, but this runs into the 'danger of cool things'. (now with the change to the Legend rule, these cards aren't really useful anymore. You're better off running Karakas if you need a method of dealing with them.)
Reanimate/Unearth -- seems nice in a Snapcaster build, but really is more cute than good. Reanimate can also function as pseudo-graveyard hate.
Chill -- good if you think you're going to run into Burn multiple times, but the versatility of BEB/Hydroblast seem to outweigh the usefulness of Chill. Douse is another Red hoser, but we can't really afford the payment and they are probably bringing REBs in anyways.
Skylasher -- good against Delver mirrors, and has utility against Merfolk and Blue control decks (Clique, Geist, Snapcaster, etc.)
Notion Thief -- this can be a huge bomb against any deck that runs Brainstorm, Jace, or certain types of combo decks that use a draw engine or lots of cantrips (just don't get yourself decked!). If you can resolve this against your opponent's Brainstorm or Jace activation, you pretty much win the game. Could be fun to have as a sneaky singleton. Surprisingly powerful against BUG control decks since he dodges Abrupt Decay and shuts off most of their card advantage.
Compost -- seems abstractly good vs. Dredge, or just as a way to hose your local mono-black player.
Kira, Great Glass Spinner -- a nice card to have against targeted removal, but really needs to show up early to be effective. Not really strong enough for its CMC for our purposes. I've seen builds experiment with having it in the maindeck, which could be okay.
Propaganda -- too slow for our deck, and we run black so we have more effective ways of dealing with aggro decks.
Bitterblossom -- great against certain control decks that rely on targeted removal. Jitte would probably need to be considered to mitigate the life loss and take full advantage of this card.
Dark Confidant -- I don't like this guy much in the maindeck, but as a sideboard creature in non-aggro matchups he could be a huge bomb. The problem is that most control decks are going to overload on targeted removal in sideboard games, so he may not survive long enough to provide a real advantage. Phyrexian Arena, despite costing one more, might be a safer form of card advantage if you feel this effect is necessary.
Sylvan Library -- I run one in the main, but it could also be considered a sideboard card. Just a great card in general. I've tested Mirri's Guile, but that card really just doesn't compare. Simply amazing to have in play, it really lopsides the game in your favor.
Engineered Plague -- a powerful tool to deal with Elves, Goblins, Soul tokens, and other decks that run a bunch of X/1 weenies.
Dread of Night -- If mono-white weenies ever becomes a legitimate concern, here's the answer.
Illness in the Ranks -- a way to deal with various creature tokens.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor -- yes, he is amazing. But getting to four mana and the late game is not usually where this deck wants to be going. He can be part of a transformative sideboard that drops the tempo angle for a more controlling build, or simply be a bomb to help win attrition games (e.g. Maverick). However, most decks are equipped to deal with him and might even think you are playing him in the main already and sideboard accordingly (and perhaps your TA build does in fact have 1 or 2 in the main). He also provides an out against decks that can't be easily defeated with the attack phase (e.g. 43 Lands). HOWEVER, with Deathrite Shaman now in the mix, 2 or 3 Jace in the SB are a completely reasonable option.
Liliana of the Veil -- The +1 and -2 abilities are relevant in so many matchups, and if you can ramp into her ultimate you're most likely winning the game. A fantastic planeswalker for the deck. Worthwhile to play in the maindeck.
Life from the Loam -- Generally better than Crucible of Worlds in any deck running green. This can be a nice way of ramping into higher cmc spells from your SB or establishing Waste-lock, or also battling against Pox decks. It's also great with Liliana as a way to make her +1 ability one-sided. It could be okay as a maindeck singleton or as part of a transformative sideboard strategy, but in a TA build intent on sticking with the tempo plan it's just too slow.
Carpet of Flowers -- this will help you win Tempo mirrors, since Daze, Spell Pierce, and Wasteland become non-issues once this card has landed. I see this more frequently in BUG Cascade lists, but it's something to consider if RUG and whatnot are frequent contenders.
Basic Lands -- Another possibility for a transformative sideboard is to run a couple of basic lands instead of Loam to be more effictive at casting high CMC bombs and help avoid opposing Waste-lock. However, non-basic hate is still going to hurt regardless and these may just be wasted slots. More of a Vintage strategy.
Sensei's Divining Top/Counterbalance -- if RUG can do it, so can we. The question is if this is really even worth eating up a bunch of your sideboard slots. Right now my assumption is no, but it could merit some testing. However, with Abrupt Decay making waves in the metagame, eating up a huge portion of the sideboard for this effect is probably not worth it.
Thrun, the Last Troll -- Thrun can be a nice trump card to top-deck if the game starts going long. He's a really good card, and I've tested sideboards before than run him. 1 or 2 copies are definitely a possibility in a heavy control metagame. Unfortunately, plenty of control decks now run Terminus or Supreme Verdict, making his viability more questionable than it used to be.
Cursed Scroll -- This may seem crazy, but very few decks will likely see this coming. TA gets into top-deck mode quickly, making its activation reliable. It can kill most utility creatures or provide a slow way of chipping away the last few points of life. It can also stop a Planeswalker from setting off their ultimate. The main strike against it is how mana-intensive it is, but this will likely be more of a late-game card anyways. Might be more cute than good, and has tension with Pernicious Deed. I have not personally tested it.
Umezawa's Jitte (and possibly other aggressive equipment) -- I would only run this if your build is running at least 9 creatures. If you get it online it is much stronger than Darkblast and can just annhilate some decks. Could be helpful against burn if your Goyf can make it into the red zone. A good singleton in the right build.
Tsabo's Web -- This is the only card that I know of that we can really use as a form of general non-basic hate (everything else hurts us just as bad/worse). Seems like it'd be ok if there's some guy in your local metagame that plays Lands, otherwise it's far too narrow to seriously consider bringing to a big tournament.
Torpor Orb/Cursed Totem -- these deal with utility creatures, but we're probably just better off killing them with our black removal than wasting slots on something this narrow.
Vendilion Clique -- Great creature to have against your combo and control opponents. Doubles as an evasive threat and disruption. Flash means you don't need to tap out against a combo opponent if you're holding Spell Pierce mana up. One of TA's best options for combating Jace.
Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker -- Could be okay ways of dealing with problematic cards like Planeswalkers, Maze of Ith, or combo pieces, but both have tension with running Pernicious Deed and Revoker is vulnerable to removal. I think the conclusion reached with these sort of effects was that they simply don't do enough in the matchups where you'd be bringing them in.
Additional Beaters -- this would include stuff like Terravore, Kitchen Finks, Obstinate Baaloth, Scavenging Ooze, Glissa the Traitor, etc. None of these creatures are as efficient as our main considerations (Goyf, Stalker, Mongoose, Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, Clique, Snapcaster, Delver, True-Name Nemesis), and additional beats don't really add much to the sideboard or make any matchups extremely better.
Phyrexian Dreadnought -- I have seen black thresh lists run a few of these as a surprise tactic against aggro decks that have few ways to answer a turn 2 12/12 trampler. Not sure it's worth the risk, but it's a consideration for builds running Stifle.
Maze of Ith/Karakas/Volrath's Stronghold/other utility lands -- See the comments on Bojuka Bog. We have no way to tutor for them (outside of something like Intuition, but then we're getting out of TA and into BUG-control territory) and don't really enhance our strategy besides. However, Karakas is great against Show and Tell/Reanimator strategies and has a useful interaction with Vendilion Clique. It could be decent as a one-of along with Clique for those long, grindy control matchups.

Conclusion and Updates

I will add to this list if anything I missed gets pointed out, and also as new effective cards get printed.

01/07/2012: added a Land Destruction section. Also added Disfigure as a legitimate targeted removal option.
12/04/2012: Added new options from RTR. The deck is also back to being a DTB, thanks to the power of Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman.
04/16/2013: Added Winter Orb to the land destruction section.
04/22/2013: Added Skylasher. Changed the formatting.
05/28/2013: Added Notion Thief and Green Sun's Zenith.
12/28/2013: Added several new cards and made some tweaks to the comments. Also added a new "top 15" section for quick reference which will get updated every so often to reflect changes in the global metagame.

[GtF]

Wow! A very thorough list of the SB options. For the most part I agree with your assessments. One card to list specifically might be tragic slip. I haven't tested it, and it is competing with darkblast, but the ability to kill a tarmogoyf or a bob could be nice, though getting it morbided is harder in legacy I think since the decks you'd bring it in against have fewer creatures. I think it's worth a mention though, it's a pretty powerful card.

[catmint]

Nice work wcm8.

[Raggedjoe]

Wow! Very awesome job wcm8! I would bring up a few points though:

1) Deed is way better than Flux vs Affinity. Affinity packs artifact/enchant removal in the sb and can and will kill your Flux. Deed is only stoppable by Pithing Needle, but many lists choose Revoker over Needle with Team can easily deal with. Energy Flux is only a real choice for Merfolk or other decks without acess to R/G.

2) I've tried Misdirection and besides two epic plays, targeting a Hymn and a lethal Blue Sun's Zenith, it's never been worthwhile.

3) I think Duress could be a decent choice (especially if you run both Thoughtseize and IoK), coming in for Thoughtseize vs Storm and Burn and IoK vs RUG Delver and the mirror (vs Delver it's usually better to take a Force than a goyf, though that's close and could depend on your list).

4) As much as I love Trygon, I feel it's biggest limitation is that we don't play GSZ.

5) I agree with Extirpate over SE, but wouldn't immediately discount it vs tempo. I always love having this card in the sb whenever possible, due to it's huge versatility. I feel that Extirpate, SE, and Macabre are miles ahead of the other options.

6) I think Arena is superior to Bob here, both for the reason you stated, plus the fact we generally run at least 6 CMC 5+ cards and little to no SDT effects.

[wcm8]

To address a couple points:

Tragic Slip just sucks (in Legacy, at least). I would file this with the other lower tier removal options. Killing X/1 guys is much better accomplished by Darkblast, or even Funeral Charm since it can double as an instant-speed discard. We want our removal to be as reliable as possible if we're going to spend a slot on it.

Energy Flux utterly stomps on Affinity -- remember that their Lands also get the upkeep cost, meaning that at most they might be able to salvage two things which will most likely suck (even Cranial Plating, Master of Etherium, and Etched Champion are not worrisome by themselves). And as you pointed out, they may be bringing in Revokers/Needles to pre-empt your Deed. This is all a moot point though, because Affinity is generally an easy matchup for us. Our tarmogoyfs will frequently be 5/6 or bigger. Energy Flux is more for consideration as a way to deal with dismal Stax matchup. I'm certainly not in love with the card, but it's just an option for a warped metagame.

Regarding Duress, I think it's really become the 4th best option as far as discard spells go in Legacy (5th if its a deck that can run Cabal Therapy). IoK/Thoughtseize accomplish the targeted role, and Hymn is great for the card advantage and just randomly winning games. Hymn is also much better against Burn and Storm/combo than Duress. If I needed that much discard, I would play 12 of these before considering Duress.

Thanks for the replies.

[wcm8]

I'm very busy with work so won't have time to write out everything I want to until next week; however I wanted to say that Team America is still a very real deck despite not top-8ing GP Indy.

I plan on writing some in-depth reports, but a few quick summaries:

-I myself went 3-3 drop in the main event. I lost to Maverick (expected), Nic Fit (expected), and Affinity (possibly a g3 misplay on my part, but really more due to luck because I got mana flooded for 4 turns whereas he top-decked threats).
-I got first place in a 50~ man side event Friday night (Legacy Bronze thing).
-I got third place in a 50~ man side event on Sunday (Gen Con qualifiers). (and I probably could have gotten first or second, but decided to scoop to the eventual winner since I wanted to go out and get food/drinks with my crew and was tired at this point).

Remember when I mentioned that Dread of Night might be worth considering if white creatures ever become a problem?... More to come later.

[GtF]

The deck is still decent but jesus is it a pain to play against all these decks with swords to plowshares. I manged to T64 the GP, with all of my losses coming against decks with STP (2 to maverick, 1 Esper stoneblade, 1 punishing zoo). Managed to beat the other 4 swords decks I played and the combo decks. Stifle was very unimpressive, it sucks that people have finally learned not to get their fetches stifled, as those easy wins were really nice. The combo of tombstalker + deed + jace is awesome though. Maybe the deck should shift more in that direction somehow (basically just BUG control but with tombstalkers).

PS: Ran the massacres in the board and they were awesome, thanks for the tip on that one wcm8.

[wcm8]

Maybe the deck should shift more in that direction somehow (basically just BUG control but with tombstalkers).

Yes, this. I ran two versions of the deck over the weekend, and in the more controlling version of the deck this is basically what I ended up boarding into in games 2 and 3 (helped me crush Bant, UW Blade and Mono-black Pox). Especially if Stifle's utility goes down, running a hybrid BUG list may be the best deck going forward as the format begins to adapt to RUG Delver.

[nitewolf9]

My biggest issue with this deck has always been the removal package. It seems you can either kill pretty much anything (ie Maelstrom Pulse and Snuff Out), but suffer from a loss of speed or life, or put design restrictions on yourself to kill Delvers more effectively but be weaker to knights (Ghastly Demise).

Finding a sweet spot with removal is where this deck needs to go moving forward. Pernicious Deed seems abysmally slow against a deck like RUG, but decent against U/w and a blowout against maverick. Perhaps a mix of Demises and Deeds would be good, not sure.

Anyway, my GP ended after round 3, and I went 1-2 drop as I didn't have byes and didn't feel like clawing towards day 2 after that start. Lost to Dredge (games 2 and 3 didn't see any hate and I couldn't capitalize on his misplays), won against reanimator, and lost to Sneak and Show (he drew a busted couple of hands and rolled me, even though I stopped him 4 times in game 1). Didn't really feel like I actually played magic.

Not really sure what to think of the deck. I have switched over to an esper blade list I've been working on with Tombstalkers, because he beats RUG on the spot if they can't submerge him, and it's been nuts, but perhaps there is a BUG build that I am missing here. If someone can figure out the removal and how to beat RUG consistently I wouldn't mind tuning a list. I thought stifle would go a long way in the RUG matchup but it usually ends up being terrible. I prefer versions of Team America that just tap out on your turn and then use Daze and Force of Will to interact on your opponents turn. I think with that kind of deck you really want Delvers as well as Tombstalkers as the extra pressure makes Daze miles better.

[Tombstalker]

nitewolf9- Ive been working on a list to beat RUG, mostly because im not satisfied with RUG either (goyfs feeling their age). Heres a brew that puts the hurt on RUG with many of the original/traditional elements intact, id be really interested to hear your thoughts:


Black TA
Creatures 10
4 delver of secrets
4 tombstalker
2 death's shadow

Permission 16
4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
2 spell snare
2 spell pierce

Discard 4
4 inquisition of kozilek

Cantrips 8
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

Removal 4
4 snuff out

Lands 18
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
4 wasteland
1 swamp
1 island


Side Board 15
3 massacre
2 perish
2 animate dead
2 spell pierce
2 submerge
2 surgical extraction
2 grafdiggers cage


So there it is. Ive been beating RUG pretty handily with this, especially postboard.
The green splash is outdated sadly and with all the aggro and spell snares running around goyf just isnt good enough.

Similarly hymn is only situationally good. Sometimes it hits business and sometimes it may as well be in the opponents hand and read "rather than pay hymns cost you may choose and discard 2 cards, your opponent chooses and discards a card." From that perspective hymn is simply a timewalk on yourself that costs your opponent 1 extra card. Anyway none of this is news im sure, just the reasons behind some changes. Also IoK could be thoughtseize but I think IoK is actually better here due to the fast aggressive nature of the deck. Snares could also become more pierce to protect the threats better and improve combo matchups.

What I feel is absolutely necessary to compete is to lower the curve down below canadian thresh, since in these types of 'pseudo mirror matches' playing a spell that costs 2 mana is actually a tempo loss when it gets caught by a spell (snare/pierce) that costs 1.

The most common CT lists all sport 3-4 spell snares which this deck auto-blanks barring its own set of daze. Conversely CT runs 8-10 cmc 2 spells on average, including daze (4 daze, 4 goyf, 0-2 fire//ice etc). Meanwhile this decks removal is all free so the curve is actually lower than CT and allows us to wrench back the initiative against opposing opening delvers OTD due to snuff out + daze, something no other deck can hope to do. The other benefit over traditional TA is less land count for added threat density and a more stable manabase as this deck can end games on just the 2 basic lands.

Delvers and Tombstalkers are the way forward, im convinced of that. Stalker beats opposing delvers/goyfs/geese, races KotR, dodges all burn and aggro creatures, dodges snares plus countertop which is not irrelevant and without the green splash he becomes immune to submerge which is amazing!

My new 'secret tech' though is deaths shadow. Dont skoff yet. TA has always had a very low creature count and cards lik clique are just to mana intensive or too clunky in such an aggressive shell. Then I found deaths shadow. This guy is like a black mongoose. Not sure on the exact count yet but as a 2-of hes been excellent, coming down as a 3/3 or greater for B and stalling creatures like goyf and even knights. Its also worth noting that shadow has great synergy with snuff out acting as a free permanent giant growth effect and is a trump card in any game where you race to the finish since anything but lethal damage means he will likely grow large enough to end the game in 1 hit.

Post board the deck can go into hyper aggressive mode with up to +3 massacre, +2 submerge, for a potential 17 free spells (with fow/daze/snuff out), more if you roll surgical extraction. I cant think of anything that can out tempo that.

Anyway give it a try i think you'll be impressed and please dont take offense at my ramblings, its just that you are one of the GODS of my alltime favorite deck :)

[catmint]

My new 'secret tech' though is deaths shadow. Dont skoff yet. TA has always had a very low creature count and cards lik clique are just to mana intensive or too clunky in such an aggressive shell. Then I found deaths shadow. This guy is like a black mongoose. Not sure on the exact count yet but as a 2-of hes been excellent, coming down as a 3/3 or greater for B and stalling creatures like goyf and even knights. Its also worth noting that shadow has great synergy with snuff out acting as a free permanent giant growth effect and is a trump card in any game where you race to the finish since anything but lethal damage means he will likely grow large enough to end the game in 1 hit.

I like your approach and most of your thought process except for death's shadoe. The biggest upside of nimble mongoose is that it has shroud. How do you want to beat a deck that is playing:
- a lot of removal
- a lot of lands
- and has better late game spells

Please don't say "by racing them out". Sure it can happen, but not as a rule. also you are missing red for doming the extra points of damage if you want to go for that approach.

[nitewolf9]

@Tombstalker I think I agree with Catmint about your approach. I've tried similar lists and it just isn't worth not having the 3rd color. I think Grixis might be an option though.
You get burn and you also get Pyroblast out of the board, which is pretty awesome. If I were to run that color combo I'd probably try a 4 Bolt/2 "hard removal" (snuff out, ghastly demise, dismember) package and run Snapcaster Mage over the death's shadow.

Snapcaster Mage seems like he would be a very aggressive threat in a deck where he would be either flashing back stifle, 1 mana discard, Spell Pierce on a planeswalker or burn to go to the face. Anyway, it's an idea and would still mean stalker is submerge proof vs rug. The tug of war with Tombstalker and Snapcaster Mage really isn't an issue as long as you pay attention when you delve.

[Tombstalker]

I've actually been testing the red splash fir exactly those reasons. The mana base is less stable which can matter but bolt is nice. I've been testing 2-3 snuff out and 4 bolts.

Regarding shadow, maybe goose was a bad comparison since its not a primary threat like delver/stalker/goyf. Shadow gets shuffled away early game But it almost always comes down bigger than goyf and usually stalls ground pressure till I can find a flyer or removal to use it to end the game. He's also big enough to ignore a good deal of the formats spot removal and burn, so maybe a dark goyf for B is a better comparison. I really suggest trying it before passing judgment, I was skeptical when I put it in the main for testing but its been really good. I've had it come down with counter protection as a 9/9 and just take the game against RUG, something I couldn't have done with anything else except a tombstalker. Against aggro shadow is just a speedbump but so are most other choices we have available except they cost 3, plus that's what the board is for.

If shadow doesn't pan out scm could be an alternative to snap back bolt/stifle/counters but cc 2 and the 2/1 body deterred me from testing them since I figured clique us probably better and I really didn't like clique in TA either. When I get home ill sleeve up some scm too, although I don't have a gauntlet to run the through, only CT, maverick, zoo, stoneblade and dredge so my testing is limited.

[wcm8]

Let me direct everyone's attention to my topic for the red splash here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22268-Team-Grixis-(UBr-tempo)

I still think Tarmogoyf and the other green cards are great, but I might be putting them aside for awhile and work on tweaking my Grixis list.

[Tombstalker]

Ive been testing various changes to the list I posted all morning..
IoK became thoughtseize (again) which then just got dropped for more burn. Ive been feeling discard just isnt that good anymore, especially when you can just run more countermagic/burn instead. The deck is very strong, probably the strongest incarnation of TA ive ever played. Burn speeds up TAs already fast clock and feeds stalkers just as well/better than sorcery speed hand disruption. Spell snares became more spell pierce. The reason is im finding I just dont care that much about 2 drops as much with a whole suite of flyers while pierce stops answers to my threats and has broader applications.

Deaths shadow is the biggest issue right now and I think this 3rd creature spot is what is really holding TA back from being THE tempo DTB.
I went back and swapped shadow out for snapcaster mage, then vendilion clique, and even animate dead in the main! I cant really find anything worthwhile to fill these last 2-3 creature slots im looking for.

Vendilion is always clunky or uncastable against RUG tempo, SCM is the same while animate dead would actually be decent at times if it didnt give -1/0.

Deaths shadow is fairly often great against RUG, due mostly to the limited creature count and all the small ground pounders, but its not always good and never early which sucks. Against aggro decks it can sometimes stall temporarily but it wont ever reverse a losing board position or race without evasion or trample. Any ideas for a replacement? Im actually thinking of just upping the burn to 8 bolts? idk.

something like this


Creatures 10
4 delver of secrets
4 tombstalker

Permission 16
4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
4 spell pierce

Cantrips 8
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

Removal/Burn 10
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
2 snuff out

Lands 18
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
3 underground sea
1 badlands
2 volcanic island
4 wasteland

[wcm8]

If you don't find Thoughtseize to be useful (which is entirely possible in certain metagames), why not just play straight U/R Delver? Tombstalker alone doesnt seem to justify the splash when you could just be running a more stable manabase and have access to Price of Progress and Back to Basics (or perhaps even Blood Moon...)

Thoughtseize is great against every non-aggro deck by ensuring your threats resolve/survive and also by disrupting their lines of play. Against aggro it *is* pretty weak since most of those decks are playing redundant threats.

And of course, black gives you access to some of the best sideboard cards ever printed. In the SB games against Maverick, the combination of Perish and Dread of Night (and/or Massacre) makes these games pretty easy just as long as you can counter Choke.

[Tombstalker]

Tombstalker and snuff out plus SB options are the main reasons for black, and ya I play against a lot of aggro in mav, bant, zoo, even gobbos...I guess the web would call this an undefined meta? IDK. We mostly play casually with netdecks but plenty of jank innovations too and some reanimator, hivemind, combo elves.

I had someone suggest reanimate as creatures 9-10. This seems like it has merit. Its a MB answer to reanimator and can take KotR, delvers etc weve countered/discarded/killed. Also that 8 bolt idea from above sucked.

[catmint]

I can't get behind Grixis Tempo for the following reasons:

I don't think 8 rather fragile wincons are enough.

Delver is fragile because of its low toughness.

Tombstalker is fragile because its needs BB and some cards in the yard and can easily be sworded or beaten/outclassed by life total advantage or some other board presence that was achieved earlier.

If you compare that to RUG tempo which plays 12 creatures (4 of them having shroud), just the addition of discard cannot make up for the loss of threat density.

Comparing to TA, I feel the deck wins red reach, but looses it's most important defense with Goyf & Deed.

[Tombstalker]

I can't get behind Grixis Tempo for the following reasons:

I don't think 8 rather fragile wincons are enough.

Delver is fragile because of its low toughness.

Tombstalker is fragile because its needs BB and some cards in the yard and can easily be sworded or beaten/outclassed by life total advantage or some other board presence that was achieved earlier.

If you compare that to RUG tempo which plays 12 creatures (4 of them having shroud), just the addition of discard cannot make up for the loss of threat density.

Comparing to TA, I feel the deck wins red reach, but looses it's most important defense with Goyf & Deed.

I agree that 8 wincons arent enough but I think thats really the only thing holding TA back right now. Goose is sick no doubt, I ended a game yesterday with 2 geese and afterwards my bant opponent showed me a hand with 3 StP and 2 punishing fire he was wittling me down with lol, tombstalker wouldnt have survived that.
However barring shrouded nacatls the rest of RUGs wincons are just as fragile (delvers) or even moreso than tombstalker (goyf eats more forms of removal) and geese/goyfs all require grave presence too. Goyf is the creature I value the least in either deck though and ive even been toying with dropping down to 3 in CT since 12 threats can clog at times and another ground pounder isnt that welcome over more disruption/burn.

Back on topic though, post board UBr has some amazing SB answers to the top decks right now and maindeck hard removal like snuff out vs dismember is awesome against bant and maverick. The way I see it TAs main problem is that canadian thresh does tempo better than the current TA builds. If we change this than TA will unseat CT as a DTB. Am I mistaken here?

In theory if TA makes its curve as low/lower than CT, runs the same counter suite, same burn, free hard removal (snuff out) and packs bigger more resilient creatures that all have evasion plus better SB answers vs green it should be the obvious winner.

[wcm8]

I am playing 10 creatures in my current Grixis list, but really, these aren't the only win-conditions as the burn spells play a huge role in finishing games. The lack of reach is one of the biggest problems with UBG TA, since control decks have virtually more maindeck removal thanks to Snapcaster recursion.

Delver *is* fragile, but if he gets in for 6-9+ damage, he's done his job and then some. If he eats a Swords, that just means that they won't have it for your Tombstalker.

Basically, Team Grixis hybridizes RUG and TA and takes their strongest elements (black for disruption, red for efficient removal/reach and REB/Pyroblast) and drops their weakest point (the green creatures). I am keeping track of my performance with the deck and tuning it as I go, and so far I think it's more powerful in the current metagame than either of the parent decks.

Why do I say that green is the weakest part of the two decks?
-Mongoose's usefulness will be limited in game 1 against Esper Stoneblade as they can fog it nearly indefinitely with Spirit Tokens. In the SB games, UWx Blade will probably start to adopt more answers to the Goose via Perish and/or Engineered Explosives, making the shroud a non-issue. Not to mention, Mongoose is perhaps the WORST creature against combo and dedicated aggro decks and will often get sided out.

-Tarmogoyf is vulnerable to every non-red removal spell, is an obvious target to the ubiquitous Spell Snare, quickly gets outsized by the actual aggro decks in the format, and is green. Being Green makes it a liability to any deck running Submerge and/or Perish. The format has moved away from Tribal Aggro, which was where Goyf really shined. Right now, Tarmogoyf seems to be a solution looking for a [currently] non-existent problem.

-Neither of these creatures fly, which often leads to an awkward board state against a deck like Maverick where you couldn't race even if you wanted to. By having flying beats, you are more often in a position to race and completely ignore Mother of Runes.

-The main things I miss from Green are Sylvan Library, Life from the Loam, and Pernicious Deed. Deed was mostly for winning against random decks in tournaments, but you still have access to Engineered Explosives as an all-purpose sweeper. Loam and Library don't have any obvious replacements in Grixis, but even these weren't essential to the decks. Loam and Deed are probably better fits for a deck built further up the control spectrum rather than trying to shove them into a tempo shell.

Red helps patch up some of the weaknesses of TA, namely the aforementioned lack of reach and also the vulnerability to Planeswalkers. Bolts are simply the best form of removal for a tempo deck, and until they print a good one-mana black removal spell I don't think this will change.

Black helps patch up some of the weakness of RUG, which was mostly to big dumb green dudes. Perish, Darkblast, Massacre, Dread of Night, and other black removal spells are better at defeating Maverick than Submerge/Mind Harness. Thoughtseize also helps out a lot against control and combo decks -- not that these matchups were so bad before, but they are especially easier thanks to Thoughtseize.

I urge everyone to at least personally test my list before dismissing it due to any theoretical weaknesses.

[Borealis]

I'm just rejoining Legacy after a reasonably lengthy hiatus, having been focused a bit more on Modern, Standard, and life in general. I've collected just about all the cards for RUG tempo, and played it for awhile, but as with Standard Delver I always felt like I wasn't playing optimally and that my playstyle prefers a more powerful suite of cards. I loved playing Junk, and did rather well with it even while it was on the Tier 3 backburner on the bigger picture, so I've decided to come back halfway and build BUG.

Here is the list I'll be striving towards as I finish collecting the necessary cards. It's Alex Gonzales' 4th place deck from SCG St. Louis this past December:

Artifacts
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Brainstorm
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Unearth

Lands
2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Thoughtseize

I think this is exactly where I want to be right now, until I figure what kind of inbred meta I'll be facing here at the LGS. On the broader meta scale, this deck may not be ideal, since both RUG and the various StoneBlade variations could give it some hell, but I think a good player with a healthy understanding of the deck can still rip through a good-sized tournament in today's field.

I like a lot of components to this deck, but for starters the dream of:

4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Tiago

....is pretty bloody awesome. I'll also be adding some number of Vendilion Cliques to this fleet in the place of Jace, to make Unearth better. Unearth might be better as a Reanimate in some cases, but for now I'll stick with Alex's build. Either way, that's another card I'm very excited to be using right now.

BUG is not RUG tempo, it's not meant to be. Previous to resurgence of RUG Tempo (or Canadian Thresh), BUG was filling in that niche. And yes, I do think RUG has been squeezing out Team America recently, but that doesn't mean we should adopt their strategy and jam in Stifle and Delver. If you want to win that way, Grixis or RUG are your best bets. If you like having a more powerful midgame, BUG is the place to be.

Also, WCM8 I wouldn't dismiss your Grixis build at all, I have a friend who did decently well with it for awhile. But, this is the BUG thread, and it looks like you have another page built for Grixis Tempo. While I do like the Grixis build, I fell that it's much closer to RUG than it is to Team America, and the bonus of BUG colors is that you can audible into a control deck more easily than the other two if the meta changes. Pernicious Deed, Sylvan Library, and Life from the Loam are all the reasons I want to stay in green, Goyf is just an added bonus. And sometimes, he still wins games all by himself after a timely Hymn to Tourach.

[catmint]

wcm8 I agree not having the option to burn the face is a weakness of TA. Pyroblast as well....

I don't agree on green creatures being the weakest part in tempo decks.

The argument you use that Nimble mongoose is not that strong in the Stoneblade matchup's are flawed imo. First you mention only Esper Stoneblade which is still a minority, but even in this matchup Nimble Mongoose is the best creature by far.

1) Every creature without trample can be chump blocked by lingering soul
2) Perish is strong, but it can be played around and disrupted. A nimble mongoose turn 2 with mana up gives Esperblade much bigger headache than a 5/5 flyer who comes down later.

Lingering souls is in fact an argument against tombstalker, because the tokens fly... Also they won't cast a jace before dealing with a 3/3 shroud for G and they love to cast a jace to bounce a tombstalker.

Evaluating green creatues not specific for the Esperblade matchup: what makes Goyf and nimble mongoose so strong is that they are super effecient. BB + 7 cards is in fact pretty expensive compared to a 3/2 flyer for U or a 4/5 for 1G. Goyf and Mongoose shine in different matchups. Mongoose in control and Goyf in Aggro and combo.

Grixis might be stronger than TA, but I am pretty sure it is overall weaker than RUG.

[Goddik]

Awesome work on the sideboard primer. I used to run a very extensive transormational sideboard plan against aggro decks but it seems like aggro nowadays is only maverick (if you can call that an aggro deck). With that in mind i would probably start any sideboard with 2 massacre and 2 perish or deed. It is pretty nice to not have to dedicate 9 slots to win against both merfolk and g/w.

I am currently a big fan of enginnered plague as a way to sweep lingering souls tokens which occaisionally gives you a free win vs goblins, elves or wizard.dec.

I haven't been super impressed with Team America lately, but maybe i just havent found the right version. Cutting the hymns and stifles and adding kiras might go a long way towards winning the stoneblade matchup. Tombstalker is certainly as awesome as he has ever been

On a related BUG note i feel like standstill is currently the nuts and i think deedstill is up for a revival if i can get the sideboard to beat combo

[wcm8]

stuff

Stifle and Hymn have been getting weaker lately in my estimation, I think cutting Stifle for Spell Pierce and Hymn for 1cmc targeted discard is the way forward for an aggro/control BUG list (for now -- things tend to loop back around as the metagame shifts). That said, RUG or Grixis seem to be the better colors for playing tempo right now.

I do think a 'Deedstill' type deck is the answer to the tier 1 metagame right now, but I don't think Standstill itself should be played -- Snapcaster is typically just better as a form of card advantage.

As for tuning the deck to beat combo, it depends on what combo you want to beat. Since so much of the main deck is devoted to beating creature decks, we can afford 6-8~ slots that are serviceable against the unfair decks. I would start with Spell Pierce and Vendilion Clique (not only for the disruption, but to put them on an actual clock). Extirpate is often just as useful against combo as it is against graveyard strategies. And we are already playing counterspells and discard in the main deck. A couple Tarmogoyfs in the SB doesn't hurt either.

A rough draft for a BUG control SB:
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
2-3 Vendilion Clique
3 Spell Pierce
1 Perish
2-3 Tarmogoyf
1 Hydroblast
1 Raven's Crime

Against most combo decks you can then cut a lot of the removal for this, and play more like a Team America deck which naturally slays combo.

I think going forward for right now, Team America is the strategy you SB into from Deed-control, rather than the other way around.

[Goddik]

Thank you for the comments WCM, I have written out the list in the landstill thread (which i encourage you all to join ;), I intend to do better at BOM this year. The reason i want to play landstill is primarily that the current field is incredibly soft to standstill, the esper deck has no manlands and both RUG and Maverick have a very hard time beating ancestral recall. With a good build the 3 top decks should almost be byes. Innocent blood is also incredible against mongoose (as well as a million corner applications). The weakness to spell based combo decks is quite worrying in an open meta though, but i believe there must be a solution.

With regards to Team America it certainly feels like the format runs too many sword to plowshares to make the tempo version of the strategy viable. A casual glance through the thread and the success of its contributers at indy seems to confirm this. I would probably test some number of kiras to get through the stoneforge decks barage of removal or accept that we need to play a controlling version much closer to Nick Spagnolos invitational build if we want to suceed in the BUG colours.

The allegory of turning Team America into Deedstill and vice versa depending on matchup is quite awesome:smile:

[Goddik]

as a random side comment, have people experimented with adding the mongooses back in. I know they used to be terrible in TA, but times have changed and it may be worth it as a solution to the living hell of plows.

[GtF]

I think a more controlling version of the deck could be pretty good. I'd be tempted to still include a few tombstalkers though - they have great synergy with deed and also defend a jace well assuming they don't get removed. You'd have to run ghastly demises and maybe a go for the throat instead of innocent bloods but that seems fine. Innocent blood isn't always better and you'd stilll probably play 1-2 lilianas for the edict effect if you need it.
Mongoose and tombstalker really don't belong in the same deck. And if you're playing mongoose it just seems like the red is stronger than the black since you can fill your graveyard easier and send burn to the face.

[Goddik]

good point on the tombstalker mongoose interaction

[Goddik]

Check out this list, it is full of tech and gives me hope for the archetype:
http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/7352#101168

Edit: If you can't access above

http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=6133

[oRen]

Why is none playing UGb Tempo with Mongoose, Confi, Goyf (or maybe now Delver) anymore? Is RUG just THAT plain better?

[Goddik]

So here are some random comments based on a day of gaming with the deck and a short testing session against canadian thresh.

Hymn: Hymn is the nuts, it is pretty poorly positioned but when you play against a non-tier 1 deck and you hymn them, it feels like you are cheating. I think hymn may be key to a good version of Team America, but it definately feels like you should know when to board them out.

Daze: This felt very underwhelming without stifle in the deck.

Delver: I am really not a fan of this guy, but I realise that not running him necessitates some very creative solutions to keep all of your dudes from going plowing. The flying is definately relevant though.

The Canadian Matchup: Liliana and Tombstalker seems like the nuts, the major problem seems to be loosing to stifle+waste or a quick protected creature. If you can keep their t1 creature off the table and get a steady stream of land then it should be easy ride from there. It was definately favoured both before and after board though sideboarding helped him (submerge) more than me.

[Spike]

Thanks Goddik, I'm glad you like the list. The deck has been awesome during the tournament and theres nothing I would change atm. I talked a lot with Dan (nitewolf9) about the list during the last weeks (thanks again, Dan) and tried to optimize it for the tournament.

The plan is to play very aggressive during the first turns and to put the opponent under pressure early. Therefore the mana curve is designed to ensure that you almost alwas can tap out turn 1-3 (t1: Ponder, Preordain, Delver into t2: Hymn, Goyf, Library etc.) while countering their stuff for free with Daze and Force. Thats why I like Daze very much in this list. The same is true for Snuff Out which is a very strong card here cause it fits the game plan of the deck very well and often allows you to play 2-3 cards per turn. Also note that you can Ponder into it t1 and cast it immediately to kill a Mother of Runes for example.

The 'tap out aggro control plan' is also the reason why I don't play any Stifles cause you're always going to end up being in a predicament when you also have a Delver or a Hymn in hand t1/t2 for example.

I played TA last year at the Bazaar of Moxen and it looks like I'm going to play it again this year. The Matchup against Maverick is quite good (had to play against it three times and won all of them) which is very important for Annecy. Cavern of Souls is going to push this deck even more but with 7 additional removal postboard I'm very confident about the matchup.

[Goddik]

Hi Spike,

Awesome to get your input, i will be asking you a bunch of questions when I sober up. I will be going to BOM myself this year so if you are interested in tuning TA for it I am game.

[Partyplatypus]

Why do these decks with 19-20 lands that resemble RUG delver a lot, not run Nimble Mongoose?

[Goddik]

The problem with mongoose is that it doesnt play well with tombstalker. Tombstalker is currently the nuts.

so here we go,

Have you tested the Esperblade matchup, how difficult is lingering souls and snapcaster plow to deal with? Is it possible to close out games before snapcaster and jace takes over on their side?

Why no Massacre in the board for maverick? It almost feels too good not to play.

What is your sideboard plan against Maverick and Canadian? It seems like i want to board out the hymns against canadian (very unintuitive from having played the matchup with misstep).

Did you consider thoughtseize/inquisition? My immediate impression was to shave a force, a daze and something else for a couple of these, but then again it might be too much tempo disadvantage.

[Spike]

I've played a lot of games against Esperblade in previous tournaments and its definitely not a bad matchup. Preboard Swords to Plowshares + Snapcaster Mage indeed is a bit annoying but postboard its very hard for them to win. Grafdiggers Cages and Dread of Nights shut off their Souls and Snapcasters, Maelstrom Pulses take care of Jaces, Equipment and tokens and Spell Pierce helps a lot, too. This is how I board against Esperblade:

+ 2 Grafdiggers Cage
+ 2 Dread of Night
+ 4 Spell Pierce
+ 1 Ghastly Demise
+ 1 Maelstrom Pulse

- 4 Force of Will
- 4 Daze
- 2 Liliana of the Veil

Theres nothing you really want to force in this Matchup, Liliana obviously is mediocre against Lingering Souls and Snapcaster Mages and since the games usually take a bit longer, Dazes become useless quite fast, too.

Massacre is a very strong card against Maverick for sure and I've played some tournaments with it in my 75 but the problems are that it kills our own Delvers and that a good Maverick player can easily play around it. When I play against Maverick I want to kill their creatures immediately and therefore Massacre often is not the blowout you would expect it to be.

Against Canadian I board as follows:

- 4 Force of Will
- 1 Maelstrom Pulse
+ 3 Spell Pierce
+ 2 Ghastly Demise

And against Maverick:

- 4 Force of Will
- 2 Daze
- 1 Preordain
+ 2 Ghastly Demise
+ 2 Darkblast
+ 2 Dread of Night
+ 1 Maelstrom Pulse

I've also played Thoughtseize in my lists about half a year ago, but I've cut them a long time ago for another Pulse and the Preordain. It's possible to play two of them but they didn't really impress me. They're a bad topdeck lategame and the lifeloss is not irrelevant, too.

[wcm8]

I've been testing that 'tapout' build some and it runs quite beautifully. I think the SB could use a bit of tweaking depending on where the meta leads, but the main deck is really savage. Props to whoever developed that list. It's pretty similar to the build I ran to a first place finish at a side-event back at Grand Prix Indianapolis -- Delver of Secrets definitely belongs in any modern Legacy deck claiming to play tempo. I also agree with Hymn to Tourach right now, even though there was a period of time that I was advocating Thoughtseize over it (to be fair, Thoughtseize is arguably better against Esper and RUG).

[Einherjer]

I just build another BUG Midrange-deck, no idea in which thread it fits best. I will post it here. It is built for a meta without Maverick and loads of combo

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hmyn to Tourach

2 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
1 Smother

2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Life from the Loam

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterspell (maybe switching to Pierce would better?)

2 flex. Slots = 1 Clique+1 Unearth at the moment - maybe it should be 1 land + 1 IoK?

7 Duals
1 Sunken Ruins
4 Wasteland
8 Fetchlands


As mentioned this deck should be able to beat all control and combodecks, while being considerably bad against Maverick, which is okay for the expected meta.

What do you think? Any suggestions?

Greetings

[catmint]

I don't think you will beat RUG. The way to beat it is to run a lot of lands and a lot of cheap removal (including sacrifice effects) in addition to a better lategame. The way your list plays out you will be fetching early (for duals) or playing duals and often tap out for a 2 mana spell. This way you play right into RUG's strengths to present 1-2 threats while keeping mana open for pierce/snare/stifle while dazing/wasting. In our "old" BUG lists from the BUG control thread we ran 23-24 lands remember?

Also I doubt stoneblade wil be favourable. Current esper tokens/jitte hurts you a lot and future UW get to play with terminus making it likely a better control deck over all.

[Goddik]

Awesome comments spike. I can't help but feel that you want to board out the hymns rather than force against canadian. Submerge is the big issue that makes me want hymn but otherwise the problem is surviving the early game, not gaining card advantage. I could easily be wrong on this one.

On another note i am not sure i like the 4 force, 4 daze setup. Both seem slightly underwhelming and i would experiment with shaving one of each, this is how i made room for inquisition of kozilek.

[Goddik]

@Phillip

If you want a midrange BUG list this is the one you want to approximate
http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/7019#95871

It seems very well tested and is probably my second deck for BOM at the moment. You don't want confidant at the moment. It is terrible against every single deck in the meta that is not combo.

[Tombstalker]

Good to see some action on this thread. I like the latest innovations from that list you posted Goddik. Ive been thinking about that list and I wonder if you (or anyone else) has thought of trying mox diamond in that 'tap out' version. Heres what I was thinking.

Pros:
-immediate daze immunity
-immunity to submerge (basically play only underground seas and toss green sources)
-turn 1 hymn/library, turn 2 liliana/pulse
-feeds earlier stalkers, grows goyf to a beastly 5/6 reliably since additional copies can be pitched to the yard at sorcery speed (6/7 with liliana, 7/8 with library in the yard)
-Plays well with liliana mitigating the drawback of multiples
-cant be stifled or wasted or choked or mooned

Cons:
-doesnt replace lands so must take spell slots
-inherent card disadvantage (mitigated to parity by hymn + library/pulse/liliana)
-often bad in multiples and from topdeck
-may increase mulligans

Anyway this is just theory but it seems very powerful by essentially speeding the deck into the range of tempo thresh while retaining the better late game of the latest build and increasing the value of goyf and stalker even further (fuck submerge). Id be interested to hear you guys thoughts on this idea.

[Goddik]

I so want the acceleration part of mox diamond, i really do. But i don't think we can afford to run do-nothings. Snuff out and daze play the same role at compacting more action into the early turns.

[Tombstalker]

I took TA with mox for a test run yesterday. The mox were as good (and sometimes as bad) as expected. Turn 1 hymn is degenerate and the mox were great against tempo thresh being immune to wasteland/stifle while allowing me to drop a mana source and waste something on the same turn was sick. Goyfs were reliably huge. Mox also blows through your hand just like rituals do but they power out very fast stalkers, hymns and so on with protection mana. I found if I didnt have a fast start with delver I could often just ponder a mox turn 1 and be in a good position. Its like crack for tempo.
Thats when I saw one. When I didnt see one they sometimes sucked later on although not always. If chrome mox wasnt vulnerable to stifle and didnt exile I would consider it instead. It felt like the matchup against tempo thresh was easier but without acceleration (and burn and goose) TA still seems worse than TT against maverick and stoneblade.

Edit- Forgot to add that the tap out version of this deck is sick. I love its savage nature. Removing stifle was the right move. Tapping out keeps a steady stream of aggression and then it just starts dropping bombs at 3cc that tempo thresh cant even begin to handle. Unfortunately it feels like Maverick & stoneblade > TA, while TA > canadian, canadian is > TA against the field. Am I wrong here?

[wcm8]

I think TA is better against Maverick than RUG, at least certainly in the post-board games. You have access to better removal and better creatures (Tombstalker > Mongoose here), and Hymn to Tourach is pretty good against them since they have practically no way of recouping the card disadvantage.

What I really like about this new list is the Preordain (functioning as the 5th Ponder) and Sylvan Library. Every turn that you're not dropping a threat, you're ripping through the deck to find the next best piece of action/disruption. I think this may be an idea worth exploring in RUG also (I am already running Sylvan Library, but perhaps Preordain should be in there too.)

[Tombstalker]

What I really like about this new list is the Preordain (functioning as the 5th Ponder) and Sylvan Library. Every turn that you're not dropping a threat, you're ripping through the deck to find the next best piece of action/disruption. I think this may be an idea worth exploring in RUG also (I am already running Sylvan Library, but perhaps Preordain should be in there too.)
I actually put library into my tempo thresh as well after seeing it in action in TA again. I like the idea of preordain for thresh too just not sure where to squeeze it.
This latest TA build is pure aggression because everything it drops is an undercosted bomb: stalkers, goyfs, hymns, lilianas, all removal, basically the whole deck is bombs. I think moving even more in that direction is what is needed.

[atropos]

This latest TA build is pure aggression because everything it drops is an undercosted bomb: stalkers, goyfs, hymns, lilianas, all removal, basically the whole deck is bombs. I think moving even more in that direction is what is needed.


Is there any consensus over the debate between the midrange and aggressive Tombstalker list? I personally favor 'Stalker but I haven't had TA sleeved since Mental Misstep got banned. I like seeing all the TA lists top-8-ing on TC decks though, definitely looking forward to playing this again. I really like the 20 land, Goyf-Stalker-Sylvan Library lists.

[Tombstalker]

Is there any consensus over the debate between the midrange and aggressive Tombstalker list? I personally favor 'Stalker but I haven't had TA sleeved since Mental Misstep got banned. I like seeing all the TA lists top-8-ing on TC decks though, definitely looking forward to playing this again. I really like the 20 land, Goyf-Stalker-Sylvan Library lists.
Not sure but ive never really considered non-/goyf/stalker lists to be 'team america' but im with you man, looking forward to seeing TA come back.

[Norm]

This deck is enjoyable, but the UR delver matchup is atrocious and that deck is very popular in SCG events. Any thoughts on improving that MU?

[nitewolf9]

Rape them with darkblast and / or play a guy they can't kill? I'm actually running a couple of vendettas and a single snuff out as my instant speed removal suite as well, which helps against delver decks.

[Tombstalker]

This deck is enjoyable, but the UR delver matchup is atrocious and that deck is very popular in SCG events. Any thoughts on improving that MU?
Besides landing an early goyf/stalker? I have been thinking about misdirection from the board. Would help protect tombstalker against stoneblade/stp and pte heavy decks but it would really help vs burn and counterburn. Redirecting fireblast is cool.

[wcm8]

Dispel seems better.

Don't forget about Hydroblast. It's definitely worth running some of these if your local meta is infested with Burn decks.

[Tombstalker]

Dispel does look better actually although a tad more narrow. I think it might be time for a surprise showing by TA.

[Goddik]

Hi guys,

Sorry if this is forum pollution, but I have lost track of all the random BUG threads, so I am going back to the roots.

I have now done a fair amount of testing with the midrange TA list, this is where i am currently at. The deck seems very powerful.

4xSnapcaster Mage
3xGoyf
3xJace TMS
2xLiliana

2xPernicious Deed
2xGhastly Demise
2xDismember
1xSmother
1xDiabolic Edict

2xThoughtseize
2xInquisition of Kozilek
4xHymn to Tourach

4xBrainstorm
2xPonder
1xLife from the Loam
3xForce of Will

8xFetch
4xUnderground Sea
2xTropical Island
2xBayou
4xWasteland
1xCreeping tar pit
1xSunken Ruins

Sideboard:
1xLoam
1xLiliana
1xDiabolic Edict
2xMaelstrom Pulse
2xRelic
2xSurgical Extraction
2xSpell Pierce
2xEngineered Plague/Dread of night
1xMassacre
1xDeed


Notes:

Spell snare feels very unnessary with all the discard and spot removal. The deck does however have a tendency to feel inconsistent. Hence the switch to ponders (note that this keeps the blue count).

Tarmogoyf is actively bad in a number of matchups where i don't want to draw multiples, he is still pretty good against RUG, randomness and the clock though so i don't want to cut him entirely.

6 Spot removal seems like the place to be if you want to reliably be able to snap one. I have lost a fair ammount of games where one removal would have been enough to make a snapcaster live and carry me through.

2 Loams in the 75 exist to break the mirror and other control decks. They are also pretty good against RUG and support a long game in attrition matchups.

The sideboard is still very rough. What are your experience in playing against choke? I am wondering if I can get by with 2 pulses or if I have to play claim just to deal with it.

[Goddik]

U/R delver should be fine for old school TA, all your creatures trump theirs and hymn is nasty. Just make sure not to run headfirst into Price of Progress and don't let your removal and tarmoyfs/tombstalkers get dazed if possible

[Tombstalker]

Looks pretty good although the low blue count has me worried, how have you found it with fow? Personally anything less than 20 feels clunky to me with force. If nothing else you may consider changing goyfs for cliques to help with that plus they add to your disruption and don't die to deed at 2. Not sure on choke with this deck but I don't see it resolving against you often with all your disruption.

[Goddik]

Force is actually ok, between all the discard and spot removal there isnt all that much stuff you want to force. They are mostly to sandbag so you can prevent opponents from topdecking their way out of a situation they have lost. In those situations the blue count is usually ok i feel. The main problem is that all the blue cards suck compared to their black counterparts and the deck is extremely tight. Discard is unbelievably better than pierce and snare.

Vendillion clique unfortunately can't do what goyf does :(