[Report] Dreadstill *GASP* wins Source Anniversary Tournament!!

[Rood]

Friday me and my friend Vanele ( AKA-- guywithbrownjacketwhomakesmockeryoflegacy) set off on what would be roughly a 5 hour trip to Vestall, NY...beating. We must've left at around 7:30PM and arrived in Vestall between 12:30-1:00AM from the Cape. We were pretty drained but were happy to be reunited with our teammates and were ready to kick some seriously ass. So after a long discussion of what deck HammafistRoob and Vanele were going to play it ended up being UGB Thresh the next day(thanks Anwar!) and TES with the broken that is AdN. Anyways we conked out at roughly 4AM that morning...bad times. Also FYI Motel floors are total assholes, I advise against them. We woke up at around 8:30AM and we got to the tournament at around 10:00AM after some magic preperations. The first thing I saw when I pulled into the parking lot was Dave Gearheart...HIGH FIVES!

After we all got registered and whatnot I decided to meet some of the sourcers and got to see some familiar faces again =]. I could not believe at how cramped the room was...it was crazy. Thankfully they moved us all upstairs to a room with wayyyy more space. Round one started around 12:30PM. Since I did not take notes I'll try to give it a valid effort based off of memory. I ended up playing UR Goyfless Dreadstill (WTF HAX NO TARMOWIN 4 REALZ?) Yes, for real. Anyways my matches.

My list:

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland
6 [ARE] Island (8)
2 [U] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [NE] Daze
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [7E] Pyroclasm

Round 1: Affinity 1-0
G1: He ends up playing an artifact land and passes possible Seat of the Synod. I had a hand that consisted of 2 Spell Snares so I really didn't have to fear a Ravanger or Cranial Plating. He of course, goes for T2 Cranial after playing a Thopter which I snare. I end up dropping a Standstill right afterwards which he pops. I end up countering his spell and then proceed to chain 2 more Standstills in a row. I basically counter all of his threats and drop a Dreadnought FTW.
[Out -1 Standstill -1 Daze +2 Pithing Needle
G2: He gets stuck on 2 colorless Lands while I get a Dreadnought down. He goes the distance.

Round 2: Goyf Sligh 2-0
G1: I keep a solid hand that I knew had FoW, Brainstorm, Counterbalance, Standstill, Island, Dreadnought, Daze. He leads with Mountain--Fanatic. All I can remember is after digging with Brainstorm I never found my second mana source until about turn 6 which he then had applied serious beats via Mogg Fanatic and was able to burn me out.
[Out -1 Daze -1 Snare +2 BEB]
G2: This match was one of the closest I had ever been in. I managed to get active a CB/Top but he was applying beats and had a decent size grip. It ended up me only having 2 FoWs in hand and CB/Top down. He plays Choke...WTF? So i look at my top 3 cards...Dreadnought, Stifle, Island. Seeing as I had one Island untapped and a Mishra's Factory in play I let the Choke resolve putting everything on the line on Dreadnought to win it for me. I tapped Top after drawing for turn and played Dreadnought. On my oponents next turn he attempts to naturalize him (apparently he didn't own K-grip) which my CB of course would miss. The 2x FoWs are gone from my hand and he packs it in to Dreadnought.
G3: I get CB/Top down again and apply the beats with Factories. He probally had enough to kill me but couldn't play around CB/Top ftl.

Round 3: Aluren 3-0
G1: I end up CBing 3 of his 3CC spells via Brainstorm and Dropping Dreadnought. He dies shortly After.
[Out -1 Daze -1 Dreadnought -1 EE +3 REB]
G2: This game I ended up gaining a ton of CA via Standstill and basically after resolving a Dreadnought kept him on the table and won. I ended up Stifling a Man-a-war i think on Dreadnought too.

Round 4: Aggro Loam 4-0
G1: My turn 4 play was Dreadnought--Stifle Dreadnought--Stifle. He honestly had no outs to it and we moved on to G2.
[Out -1 Standstill -2 Daze -1 Dreadnought +2 Crypt +2 BEB]
G2: Crusher really is painful have I mentioned that? Yeah he does what he does best and I die a painful, horrible death after BEBBing his Seismic assault then Crypting him.
G3: He has very few mana sources because of an EE on mox. I end up getting CB/Top active and just get there with Factory beats. He doesn't draw many lands this game.

Round 5: Mighty Quinn by Clavio 5-0
G1: He ends up making a bunch of land drops while I'm stuck on 1 land. I Daze his Moat and something else which I can't remember. I do remember Stifling his Isochron Sceptor and began applying Trinket Mage/Factory beats. I managed to establish CB/Top lock as well. Towards the end of the game he was at 2 life and plays a Sacred Mesa. I attack him with Trinket Mage which he responds to my making a token. I Trickbind the ability and thats game time.
[Out -1 Daze -1 Dreadnought +2 Pithing Needle]
G2: A Dreadnought with FoW backup for swords on about turn 5 and Trickbind on his Oblivion Ring get there for me. Have I mentioned how good Trickbind is?

So I rejoice with Ben(ForceofWill) after the 5th round seeing as we're both undefeated with Dreadstill at this point and garunteed basically a slot in the T8 with ID.

Final record at the end of swiss 5-0-2

So finally after IDs with AdN TES and Dreadstill (FoW) we begin the Top 8 roughly 2 hours later.

Top 8: Geddon Stax by Afro 6-0-2
I've faced Afro quite a few times in Hadley I'm pretty sure and know how tough he is. He's 6-1 and in 2nd place after the end of swiss so I know I'm in for the battle of my life. After some good luck we're on our way.
G1: A quick Dreadnought with FoW backup on Oblivion Ring ends this game fairly fast. I was hoping to at least steal game one because I knew it would go to three games.
[Out 3 Counterbalance +2 E-truth +1 Pithing Needle
G2: He completely LOCKS me out with 3sphere, Grid, and Stax. I can never manage to draw my 3rd mana source and scoop it up to salvage dignity.
G3: On turn 3 his board was something like Mox, plains, Defense Grid, 3Sphere. After he drew his card and said go I knew he had no land. I had two Echoing Truths in hand and elect to bounce his mox first to lock him under his own 3Sphere. After he draws and passes without playing another land I go turn 3 Trinket Mage for EE. I end up blowing up his Grid with EE and Bouncing 3sphere at EOT with E-truth. Dreadnought finishes soon after.

They were great matches I enjoyed every second of them.

T4: Team America by nitewolf9 7-0-2
G1: I manage to get CB/Top active and I get in there with Factory/Trinket Mage ftw I believe.
[Out -1 Dreadnought -1 Standstill +2 Echoing Truth]
G2: Team America does what Team America does best. I die to a horrible death via Tomb-cave-skuller (Tombstalker) and Tarmogoyf. Oh I do remember Dreadnought being Snuffed out 2 times this match...beating.
G3: After a Trickbind on his fetch and a Wasteland on his U-Sea he is manaless for about maybe 10-15 turns. The only mana he had was one colorless Wasteland. I establish CB/Top but can't find any threats at all after fetching a bunch of times. I eventually drop a Standstill. After a while of nitewolf playing draw ditch go he gets a few lands in play. He pops my Standstill with a Ponder which give me redic card advantage on him. I end up dropping a Dreadnought which he grips but am getting him with Trinket/Factory beats. Eventually he goes down to 4 life and drops Tombstalker. I look at the top 3 cards of my library--Echoing Truth, Echoing Truth- Force of Will...seriously? I let it resolve. He then drops a Tarmogoyf which I tap top to Force it. My turn Top-->draw Bounce Stalker and he dies for exactly 4 damage.

Those were the best games I played all night and nitewolf was an exceptionally good player. TA is a really bright new innovation and I look forward to seeing how the deck progresses.

So after my T4 match I found out Ben (ForceofWill) had lost to AdN TES...WTF? It's one of Dreadstills best matchups and I was kinda surprised it had happened. I was expecting a T2 showdown amongst Dreadstill decks.

Finals: AdN TES 8-0-2
G1: I made a misplay with a Daze on a Dark Ritual which on his next turn he ended up Emptying for 6. I stablized with 1 Mishra's Factory and ended up killing him once I drew another. I also had Counterbalance down but no top =[. I did get lucky with a blind flip of 2cc after he chanted me.
G2: Dreadstill does what Dreadstill does to storm based combo, and I CB/Top locked him and shut him down from the game pretty much entirely. I killed him with manlands I believe.

So that's it...Dreadstill won the tournament and pigs rain down from the sky. I hope that people will take it seriously now as it's seriously the best deck in Legacy at the moment.

Props:
-J.V. for being the man and playing Dreadstill too
-Dreadstill, for being awesome to me
-40 Dual lands for being 40 dual lands
-My team for putting up a room for me and convincing me to come to this
-Dave Gearheart, ALL RIGHT HIGH FIVE!!
-All the awesome Sourcers I met...there were countless
-My oponents for being nice and respectful
-Hammafist for designing the best deck in Legacy

Slops:
-Overcrowded in downstairs
-My teammates for scrubbin early out of the tourny
-Almost getting KO'd by Goyf Sligh
-10-11 hours driving time
-Beatings...what a beating
-Floor of Motels...sucks

See you guys at TML Open 4!

[Bryant Cook]

Congrats for winning with that pile. ;-p

[Whit3 Ghost]

Congrats on the finish and on writing the first of hopefully many reports to come from this event!

[ForceofWill]

I find it funny that in the swiss I played against 5 completely different decks than you. Good report and good win.

P.S. remember to play around shatter from now on.

[J.V.]

Congrats Rood, Great job dude. To bad Zach backed out of the bet huh...? :tongue: Also beware of Shatter... Teeniebopper and his lackey's are gonna be buying them out!
:Edit: Damn Ben beat me too it.

[beastman]

didnt you topdeck the counterbalance game 2 against jimmy in the finals the turn before he wuld have killed you?

[Rood]

didnt you topdeck the counterbalance game 2 against jimmy in the finals the turn before he wuld have killed you?
Not entirely sure that he would have killed me but I believe I topped and stacked the CB on top and drew it for turn.

[J.V.]

No brainstormed into it and stacked it. He played it the turn before Jimmy would have killed him. Also that 2cc Flip was the best thing that ever happened to you and you didn't even know it :laugh: Your made a sad face and said resolves about Jimmy's Chant and he's holding LED LED Burning wish, Infernal tutor, Infernal Tutor, seems pretty good.

[Pinder]

Seriously. You should have seen the chat log when that Counterbalance landed. It was roughly:

OMG
gg
that's game
game over
no way TES is winning now
that CB just won Rodney the game
etc.

Again, major props to Gearhart for giving the play by play in the finals.

[frogboy]

The irony is that Dreadnaught was only good for like three game wins.

I'm sort of curious if that Mesa guy is even aware of his punt.

Grats, etc.

[Rood]

The irony is that Dreadnaught was only good for like three game wins.

I'm sort of curious if that Mesa guy is even aware of his punt.

Grats, etc.

If by punt you mean put the triggers on stack before he passes priority back it wouldn't have changed the game. He only had 4 mana open and I had an extra Stifle effect waiting in hand.

[frogboy]

It's not like it's not a mistake just because you happen to have the outs.

[Jak]

Congrats on the finish! Nice report, but people seriously just don't get it. You can't just play 4 shatter and expect to beat 4 Mishra and 4 Noughts, you need to play 4 Shatter and 4 Pillage/Shattering Spree.

(Im just playing Rood :))

[thefreakaccident]

It's not like it's not a mistake just because you happen to have the outs.

I agree with you wholeheartedly... but you also have to put into account that a lot of people would not see that play.

[frogboy]

It's pretty much strictly better unless you have a two mana removal spell in your hand.

[Rood]

Congrats on the finish! Nice report, but people seriously just don't get it. You can't just play 4 shatter and expect to beat 4 Mishra and 4 Noughts, you need to play 4 Shatter and 4 Pillage/Shattering Spree.

(Im just playing Rood :))

LOL, good one =]. But actually I'd scoop it up to The Chubb

[beastman]

i hear that is some kind of nasty against dreadstill, even tho that joke has been kicked to death about a hundred times too many:tongue:

[nitewolf9]

Nice work winning this thing, you deserve it. We had some good games...maybe I'll get you next time :cool:

Perhaps dreadstill gets some respect now?

[Eldariel]

Good show, watching the live feed was hilarious. Quite the irony that the much-maligned Dreadstill wins while Threshold and Landstill fail to even Top 8. Nice going! Although I'm definitely not ready to cram the "best deck" cap on anything yet :P

[rockout]

Congratulations on the finish. Still can't believe UR Dreadstill won and had two Top 4 finishes, I guess it's time to seriously add it to the gauntlet.

[KillemallCFH]

Congrats again. All those Top 8 matches were epic.

[Illissius]

I don't disrespect Dreadstill: I don't understand it.

So I'm going to repost here my question(s) from the Q&A forum, in case one of you really smart people who actually play the deck but aren't Adepts can answer it for me:


I get why Dreadnought itself is good. What I don't get, since the beginning of this thread and even before, is why:

Dreadnought.dec With Standstill > Dreadnought.dec Without Standstill
while at the same time
Other Threshold-Like Decks With Standstill < Other Threshold-Like Decks Without Standstill

IOW, why do Dreadnought and Standstill belong in the same deck when they have no special apparent synergy? And why does combining these two seemingly random elements into one deck suddenly result in one of the best decks in the format? And if it's because simply 'splashing' for Standstills is +EV, then why haven't other decks in a similar blue aggro-control mold also added Standstills and put up similar results? What does Dreadnought.dec have which makes it worth using Standstills in it, which other similar decks don't have? This is what confuses me to no end. It makes no logical sense. (See also: current pet theory (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=286303&postcount=11).)

[insertnamehere]

Congrats, you (your team) handle that deck to perfection. Perhaps you should change your name to team dreadstill. See you at Off the Wall.

[Mayk0l]

Congratulations man!

I played against JV's Dreadstill, I wasn't too impressed, too bad I didn't get to be in the finals to take you on ;)

Anyways, congrats! As much as people here hate to admit it, that pile just won you another big one, impressive.

[Nightmare]

I don't disrespect Dreadstill: I don't understand it.

So I'm going to repost here my question(s) from the Q&A forum, in case one of you really smart people who actually play the deck but aren't Adepts can answer it for me:
My questions on the deck are the opposite - I think Naught is a turd on an otherwise decent decklist. Is the 12/12 that important that you couldn't run other wincons in its stead? Between the 4 Naught slots and the 3 Magi, you have room for 7 more win conditions that actually operate under Standstill. Wouldn't that make for the better deck?

[Illissius]

My questions on the deck are the opposite - I think Naught is a turd on an otherwise decent decklist.

Same question, we both don't understand how/why one half of the deck fits in with the other half. Whether you view it as a Dreadnought deck with Standstills or a Standstill deck with Dreadnoughts is I guess a matter of emphasis. ("I get why Dreadnought itself is good." was in reply to a previous post explaining why Dreadnought itself is good.)

Would you keep all 6 Stifles and Trickbinds even after cutting Dreadnoughts?

[Nightmare]

Same question, we both don't understand how/why one half of the deck fits in with the other half. Whether you view it as a Dreadnought deck with Standstills or a Standstill deck with Dreadnoughts is I guess a matter of emphasis. ("I get why Dreadnought itself is good." was in reply to a previous post explaining why Dreadnought itself is good.)

Would you keep all 6 Stifles and Trickbinds even after cutting Dreadnoughts?
I'd probably keep 4 Stifles.

[Peter_Rotten]

But there is a very good chance that you only have to protect your Dreadnuaght once while other wincons you'll have to protect twice, maybe even three times. No other critter will put such a hurting on an opponent from just swinging once.

[Nightmare]

But there is a very good chance that you only have to protect your Dreadnuaght once while other wincons you'll have to protect twice, maybe even three times. No other critter will put such a hurting on an opponent from just swinging once.
You're a CONTROL DECK. Why wouldn't you be able to protect it twice? Especially when you cut all the chaffe, and get more resilient wincons in the deck.

[Skeggi]

So what would you use as a beatstick?

[Peter_Rotten]

You're a CONTROL DECK. Why wouldn't you be able to protect it twice? Especially when you cut all the chaffe, and get more resilient wincons in the deck.

Chaffe? You have 8 slots likely: 4 Naughts, 1 Trickbind, and 3 TrinketMages? What else is the chaffe? If keeping Trinket, then you only have 5 slots to play with. What wincon will you be adding that doesn't butcher the mana-base or, at least, make the secondary color a requirement? What wincon will you add that only needs to
swing twice? What wincon will possibly come down on turn two and be that much of a threat?

Stalker? :b::b: seems tough to squeeze in here. He's not coming down on turn 2. Probably has to swing 4 times.

Goyf? comes down turn 2 but probably has to swing 4 to 6 times. Also on turn 2, he is likely only 2/3 or 3/4. Also, there's a good chance he might be bouncing off of your opponent's Goyf.

MUC wincons? Rainbow, Meloku, Morhpling? We probably don't even need to discuss these.

Manlands? Too slow in my opinion. Weakens the manabase also.

That Nuaght comes down and the opponent goes, "Oh fuck, I gots to deals with that nows!" What other critter does that?

..........

The deck has four decent paths to victory:

1. Two swings from Nuaght
2. One swing fro0m Nuaght, and then nickle and dimes from Factories/Mage
3. Reverse number 2
4. Long hard road riding Mage/Factories all the way.

[Nightmare]

The deck has four decent paths to victory:

1. Two swings from Nuaght
2. One swing fro0m Nuaght, and then nickle and dimes from Factories/Mage
3. Reverse number 2
4. Long hard road riding Mage/Factories all the way.

In my experience, the option they win with the most is #4. If that's the case, then why not just play the better deck in Landstill, or at least cut the Naughts for Goyfs or something, and use the extra slots to better play the control role?

You know as well as I do that 8 slots might as well be infinity.

[Skeggi]

So what would you use as a beatstick?
You = you, Nightmare :smile:

[Nightmare]

You = you, Nightmare :smile:
Aside from the obvious "Tarmogoyf" response, the question you asked begs another -

Why do you think a control deck needs a "beatstick" at all?

[Skeggi]

Why do you think a control deck needs a "beatstick" at all?
"Win games" seems to be a good incentive. There is a limit to the amount of control a control deck has. You will want to beat face at a certain point. When you do this, you want the best beatstick for the job. The old MUC used to have Rainbow Efreet, this later became Morphling. Now there are people thinking, with Stifle already in the build, why not use Phyrexian Dreadnought. Seems logical. Manlands may not be enough: what if your opponent also plays manlands, or other blockers. You may need something that can deliver a punch. If not Phyrexian Dreadnought, what would you use? P_R has explained why Tarmogoyf wouldn't suffice as good as Phyrexian Dreadnought does in certain situations.

[thefreakaccident]

If we are going to be talking about win-conditions... why not play threshold over painter/stone?

Painter/stone is about the same as dreadnought (needs 2 pieces, needs several turns, is dead without the other piece)...

I never liked dreadnought in a control meta, but in an agro-control meta/mixed meta, I can see it doing very well for itself...


A turn two 12/12 trample can finish a game pretty easily... and with 4 free countermagic, you only have to protect it so long before you've won the game.


Also, unlike painter/stone... stifle is also very good... whereas both pieces of stone are awful by themselves (not to mention the difference in speed and cost).

[Boogy_Boy]

Congrats on your finish.

Only if I were able to get my hand on 4 Dreadnought here in Sydney :/

[frogboy]

I'd probably keep 4 Stifles.

why are people so hellbent on playing Stifle in their control decks?

[Afro]

Great report! Congrats on the finish and doing well with a deck that many people hate. Hopefully I will see you at the next Hadley!

[jazzykat]

@Rood: I notice that you had 3 each of REB and BEB however, the max I ever saw come in was 2.

Would you keep the board the same?

Did you ever wish you had something to concretely deal with counterbalance such as wipe away (even for the turn) that would get through a counterbalance instead of just REB?

Do you feel like the lack of Tarmogoyf was a hindrance or did you love the manabase stability more than feel the lack of him?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

In all of my Massachusetts experience against Dreadstill, I have never lost to Dreadnought. It's always been Trinket Mages or Factories. However, I do believe IBA said it best;
I guess if Dreadstill's success is attributable to anything, it's the Philosophy of Water; the deck is fluid and shifting, and very difficult to pin down into a simple role.Dreadstill is a solid blue control deck that can suddenly end the game. Dreadnought allows it to out race combo and aggro occasionally. It can slow roll the game or shift to the equivalent of an efficient agro deck with counter back up.

[kilukru]

Amen to what Sanguine Voyeur said, I play the deck and most of the engine in the deck dosn'nt have as much synergie than they "complete" each others. In other word, if one is about or have failed, the other one will come in and bail it out.

I usedto be a landstillplayer,and dreadstill apealedto me for the fun factor of beating people up with a 12/12 trampler instead of grinding everyone to death.

[Rood]

@Rood: I notice that you had 3 each of REB and BEB however, the max I ever saw come in was 2.

Would you keep the board the same?

Did you ever wish you had something to concretely deal with counterbalance such as wipe away (even for the turn) that would get through a counterbalance instead of just REB?

Do you feel like the lack of Tarmogoyf was a hindrance or did you love the manabase stability more than feel the lack of him?

You make a good point, I'm definetally going to revisit my board but the 3x BEBs I think are locked. (See Dragon Stompy) The deck already has so many ways to deal with CB that I really don't feel like we need another answer to deal with it. Tarmogoyf isn't nearly as good as people say he is in Dreadstill, I've been trying to tell people this for a while now...alot of the time I'd rather have the additional answer as oposed to just a beatstick. Also the fact we run 8 artifacts I really don't like to run many more cards to make my FoWs unpitchable.

@Nightmare: All I can say is to testplay the deck or something over MWS. Dreadnought is in my opinion the best creature in legacy without question...the fact you're oponent can "2 for 1" you with a removal spell is completely is worth the risk of killing them in 2 turns. So if you protect him for 2 turns, it's over.

@Illissius: Okay here is the reason Dreadnought and Standstill are synergenic together and why this archtype puts up more results than other Dreadnought archtypes: Standstill gives you that card advantage you NEED to protect and keep your Dreadnought on the field. That's really the best way I can put it as to why they work so well together. Also when you drop a Dreadnought and a Standstill right aftewards 8/10 times it's GG.

Also, thanks guys

[Bardo]

When it comes to Dreadstill, I think traditional notions of "sound deck design" or whatever lead nowhere helpful. All decks are the sum of their parts. Often those parts don't add up to very much; other times, you're dealing with a weird kind of math where 2 and 2 isn't always 4. Recall that Thresh was relegated to N&D at one point.

In the abstract, yes, 2-for-1s are bad when you're on the losing end of that exchange. But in the spectrum of risk vs. reward, sometimes it's a perfectly acceptable cost, when it lets a control deck do things "it's not supposed to do."

Anyway, I've said that hybridization is the key to this format for years now; Dreadstill is a rather extravagant flavor of that. And yeah, fattie + Standstill just wins games, when the rest of the deck supports that strategy.

Good report. Well fucking done.

[frogboy]

In the abstract, yes, 2-for-1s are bad when you're on the losing end of that exchange. But in the spectrum of risk vs. reward, sometimes it's a perfectly acceptable cost, when it lets a control deck do things "it's not supposed to do."

No one ever really satisfactorily explained to me why it was so awesome when everyone has Plows, EEs, and Grips. Like, it'd be fine if you weren't accidentally running into all these awesome cards that people are already playing. His report mostly reads like a Counterbalance deck with Standstills that happens to have some 12/12s, but most of his games were won with random 2/2s instead. I feel like I'd rather just have a legitimate aggressive strategy and play more awesome beaters instead of Trinket Mage or I'd rather just advance my control strategy.

[Rood]

No one ever really satisfactorily explained to me why it was so awesome when everyone has Plows, EEs, and Grips. Like, it'd be fine if you weren't accidentally running into all these awesome cards that people are already playing. His report mostly reads like a Counterbalance deck with Standstills that happens to have some 12/12s, but most of his games were won with random 2/2s instead. I feel like I'd rather just have a legitimate aggressive strategy and play more awesome beaters instead of Trinket Mage or I'd rather just advance my control strategy.

There is no beater in the game that will end the game as fast as Dreadnought sadly or else he would be in my deck as a 4 of. Out of my 16 victory I had, 10 of them came from Dreadnought which is 62.5% of my games. All I can say is to proxy up the decklist and play someone to see what Dreadnought can do. Trinket Mage was probally my 2nd MVP all day next to Standstill, the fact he generates more card advantage and searches for whatever I need to win the game (Top, Dreadnought, EE) makes him rediculous good. There are no replacements for either of them, sadly IMO.

EDIT: 500 post! WOOOT now it's on!

[Peter_Rotten]

No one ever really satisfactorily explained to me why it was so awesome when everyone has Plows, EEs, and Grips.

Well, there's a problem with your assumption. Not everyone IS running those cards. Specifically, in the case of Grip, a turn 2 Dreads could have taken a 12point chunk of life from you already. Imagine GoyfSligh could play 2 cards for 2 mana to do 12 dmg? :eek: EE runs into a similar problem unless you telegraph it by playing it turn one. StP could easily fall victim to CB.

PPL toss out the "Shatter Argument" as if Dreadstill didn't run counters! EE, StP, and others cannot be the be-all and end-all of the argument.

[Mayk0l]

PPL toss out the "Shatter Argument" as if Dreadstill didn't run counters! EE, StP, and others cannot be the be-all and end-all of the argument.

Yeah but the two most played artifact haters are Shattering Spree and Krosan Grip, both because they are hard to counter. Most of the Counters Dreadstill plays can't do anything about either one of them.

[Peter_Rotten]

Yeah but the two most played artifact haters are Shattering Spree and Krosan Grip, both because they are hard to counter. Most of the Counters Dreadstill plays can't do anything about either one of them.

And yet it still continues to do well. How? Are ppl simply not playing these cards? How often are they relevant for game 1?

[rockout]

My questions on the deck are the opposite - I think Naught is a turd on an otherwise decent decklist. Is the 12/12 that important that you couldn't run other wincons in its stead? Between the 4 Naught slots and the 3 Magi, you have room for 7 more win conditions that actually operate under Standstill. Wouldn't that make for the better deck?

You'd be running Eternal Dragon and Decree to win under Standstill and be playing Landstill.

[emidln]

And yet it still continues to do well. How? Are ppl simply not playing these cards? How often are they relevant for game 1?


I think Fetchland Tendrils and Urg Dreadstill (maybe Goyf Sligh, I don't know if the 2-3 KGrip thing was definitive) are the only two decks maindecking Krosan Grip at the moment. The catch is, Dreadstill can sometimes keep a 3cc on top (or, gasp, get lucky with a flip) and still counter the KGrip. Also, it's not like either deck is seeing heavy play, so the chances of an opponent presenting a non-counterable removal spell are pretty slim.

As for the noughts themselves, a two card investment isn't all that bad (the deck runs plenty of other CA and VCA-generating stuff to make up for it). It's not as efficient as Tarmogoyf, but it doesn't get chump-blocked all day. It's theoretically easy to get rid of, but when a Dreadnought drops the gameplan goes from "control the game" to "keep Dreadnought around for 1-2 turns". Keeping a single card in play is ridiculously easy when you play as much control as Dreadstill does.

BTW, Congrats on the win!

[jazzykat]

Here are my thoughts on the deck because I often find myself scratching my head as to "why it wins":

Card disadvantage:

First, you play dreadnought put its trigger on the stack and then counter the trigger with either Stifle or Trickbind. Now, if they have Trickbind you can't counter it and have a 12/12 trampler on the board.

Second, they have to have an answer. Remember...no wrong threats blah, blah, blah.

So let's break it down by commonly played removal:



STP best removal in the game = 2 cards for 12 life. You have counters against it.

EE: Yes it kills dreadnought for 3 mana. Depending on your build you have X counters plus X more stifle effects. You have some outs against it.

Grip: It also kills dreadnought for 3 mana and there isn't much you are going to do about it. Great hate card, mostly found in sideboards. You can sometimes cut them from green with wasteland + stifle.

Shattering Spree: Another excellent choice and I have never heard of it maindecked. Probably going to kill the nought when done for 2 or greater. Requires a moderate comittment to red.

So there are a lot of great answers, but they all have a catch.

Lastly, think of it like this: You have a control/aggro-control type shell with a 3 turn, 2 card combo with the stifles/trickbinds being pretty darn useful on their own. So you play 4 potentially dead cards, how is that so bad?

[SillyMetalGAT]

Yeah but the two most played artifact haters are Shattering Spree and Krosan Grip, both because they are hard to counter. Most of the Counters Dreadstill plays can't do anything about either one of them.

Umm you can stifle the shattering spree, but your right about Grip, unless they have CBT down.I know when Bane plays this deck and he sees green across the table, he'll top and put trinket mage on top. People also seem to forget that StP really sucks against Dreadnought. Gaining 12 life definitely gives the deck time to find an answer.

EDIT: aww my points were already made. Reading before posting FTL

[DeathwingZERO]

Being on both sides of the table with the deck, I can note pros and cons I have seen when facing and playing it:

Pros:
- Fastest "win" from a non dedicated-combo build. No single threat is capable of sealing the game in 2 turns, even through minor blockers.
- An engine equipped to abuse both CT and Standstill. Landstill decks can't fit CT due to varying degrees of cc, and Thresh can't play Landstill because it always wants to apply pressure via it's creatures from early turns on.
- Relatively fluid play. Can swap between control, aggro control, and aggro within a turn or two given the right draws or situations.
- Minor splash. Going for a second color isn't requiring the deck to bend over backwards to get it's colors onto the table and keep them there. Note that this is not true for all versions, typically just that of the UG or UR specifically.

Cons:
- Being a CT based deck, it has the same risk as any of them do: opponent's CT's going online first.
- Very weak and slow recovery process. If the 2/2's are nullified or the 12/12 removed, the deck has little actual card draw to recover quickly. Typically Standstill is not enough.
- Slow "toolbox". If Standstill cannot be found (or hasn't dug enough), the answers are almost always going to be in the hands of Trinket Mage. With that, it's often not easy to be able to play him, and say blow up an EE for 2 in the same turn.
- Unable to put the pressure on as good as it's "parents" (or some other type of family member): Landstill and Thresh. It doesn't pack nearly as many diverse answers as Landstill can, and without Nought it's board pressure is not as steady and relentless like Thresh's creatures.

I'd argue the deck is easily one of the hardest aggro control decks to play correctly. Much like trying to pilot TES, you have to consider your setup, execution, and protection elements all in a short amount of time. The major difference (aside from archetype basics) is this deck doesn't aim to win on turn 1 or 2, it aims to win in 1 or 2 turns.

[Enigma]

What people seems to forget about Dreadstill is that we have a great mana denial in 4x Wasteland and 5-6x Stifle. Most of the time, it let us time to put Factory OR Dread OR Counter Top and then Standstill.

Having a Krosan grip resolve on the first 5 turns is not particularly easy to do.

Btw, I agree with the analysis Sanguine Voyeur did.


Dreadstill is a solid blue control deck that can suddenly end the game. Dreadnought allows it to out race combo and aggro occasionally. It can slow roll the game or shift to the equivalent of an efficient agro deck with counter back up.

PS: Congratz Rood, don't let you go down with all these Dreadstill haters. They just failed to win those 40 Dual lands :cool:

[Rood]

What people seems to forget about Dreadstill is that we have a great mana denial in 4x Wasteland and 5-6x Stifle. Most of the time, it let us time to put Factory OR Dread OR Counter Top and then Standstill.

Having a Krosan grip resolve on the first 5 turns is not particularly easy to do.


You're exactly right with all the points you made. I can't even begin to tell you how often people never even get a chance to get into the game with the mana denial package Dreadstill runs. Yeah K-grip hurts, but as you said it's easy to shut them off from the required mana they need to cast it TO hurt you.


PS: Congratz Rood, don't let you go down with all these Dreadstill haters. They just failed to win those 40 Dual lands :cool:

I won't go down don't worry :). Winning those 40 dual lands in that field was one of the hardest things I've ever done regarding the skill level everyone had there.

[FoolofaTook]

Stifle is a good card to have in this meta and Trickbind is a great card at times, although it would probably not be playable without a strong primary use in the deck.

Reading Rodney's report it was really easy to substitute Disrupting Scepter for CounterTop and Serra Angel for Phyrexian Dreadnought and go back about 13 years in time. Of course the control deck that was so good back then didn't have potential mana disruption in spades from the Stifle effects although it did pack Stripmines and Mishra's. Everybody hated that deck too and disrespected it while it was busy chowing down on them.

[Maagler]

Stifle is a good card to have in this meta and Trickbind is a great card at times, although it would probably not be playable without a strong primary use in the deck.

Reading Rodney's report it was really easy to substitute Disrupting Scepter for CounterTop and Serra Angel for Phyrexian Dreadnought and go back about 13 years in time. Of course the control deck that was so good back then didn't have potential mana disruption in spades from the Stifle effects although it did pack Stripmines and Mishra's. Everybody hated that deck too and disrespected it while it was busy chowing down on them.

I'm sorry but i was not playing 13 years ago, what is the deck you are talking about? does it have a name?

[FoolofaTook]

I'm sorry but i was not playing 13 years ago, what is the deck you are talking about? does it have a name?

The Brian Weissman deck that won Worlds in 1996 is the signature deck of the archetype because it won Worlds. It was actually an evolution of a wider range of decks that had begun to dominate earlier and that had used Moat as an option instead of as an asset that was going to be deployed at some point. Those decks used Mishra's Factory to increase the number of lands in the deck (helpful for casting things like Jayemdae Tome) while maintaining additional threats to win with under the Disrupting Scepter lock. Mishra's also was very helpful in the control mirror.

[Maagler]

The Brian Weissman deck that won Worlds in 1996 is the signature deck of the archetype because it won Worlds. It was actually an evolution of a wider range of decks that had begun to dominate earlier and that had used Moat as an option instead of as an asset that was going to be deployed at some point. Those decks used Mishra's Factory to increase the number of lands in the deck (helpful for casting things like Jayemdae Tome) while maintaining additional threats to win with under the Disrupting Scepter lock. Mishra's also was very helpful in the control mirror.

ok thanks that makes sense.

[Hoojo]

What about the decks he went up against? I only saw one DTB in the report. Did these other decks not expect Dreadstill to perform well, assuming that other people would be playing Threshold and such?

[TheCramp]

How much different is it to stifle out a naught than dark ritual out a specter? I guess it is that a control deck is doing this that seems so befuddling. But dark ritual is a tempo, and therefor agro card, and all is well. What is brilliant here is that your doing the same thing, yet with a control card - Stifle. Ritual is a crap top deck, as is dreadnought, so their about fair in that regard... except that you are packing way more filtering than any suicide deck ever could. Remember Keeper? Dreadnought is a Serra for the modern control player. The point was for control to play something bigger than the agro decks were packing. Playing the same threats, Goyf, is playing fair. That's like keeper playing white knight, which is to say, shitty.

[FoolofaTook]

How much different is it to stifle out a naught than dark ritual out a specter? I guess it is that a control deck is doing this that seems so befuddling. But dark ritual is a tempo, and therefor agro card, and all is well. What is brilliant here is that your doing the same thing, yet with a control card - Stifle. Ritual is a crap top deck, as is dreadnought, so their about fair in that regard... except that you are packing way more filtering than any suicide deck ever could. Remember Keeper? Dreadnought is a Serra for the modern control player. The point was for control to play something bigger than the agro decks were packing. Playing the same threats, Goyf, is playing fair. That's like keeper playing white knight, which is to say, shitty.

This is a good comparison. Stiflenought is more valuable than Ritualspecter but it's the same basic concept of having one enabling card with multiple purposes (dark ritual always has other things to do also in the first couple of turns) that empowers a threat that has to be answered by the opponent fairly quickly. The obvious difference between the two pairs is that Ritualspecter quickly loses value after the initial turns of the game, whereas Stiflenought maintains it's value both as a combo and in terms of Stifle's addition to the defensive suite in the deck.

The thing that I find hardest to deal with when playing Stiflenought themes is measuring the value of Stifle in the early game. Unlike Dark Ritual Stifle does not lose value as the opponent's potential plays become more impactful, quite the opposite actually. So holding Stifle in the opening hand (with no wasteland available, with maybe a Dreadnought but not much backup) and having the opportunity to Stifle a fetch on turn 1 or 2 becomes quite an agonizing decision. Spend the Stifle proactively to attempt to disrupt the opponent or hold it to enable your own strategy or even create greater disruption a few turns down the road?

[TrialByFire]

The thing that I find hardest to deal with when playing Stiflenought themes is measuring the value of Stifle in the early game. Unlike Dark Ritual Stifle does not lose value as the opponent's potential plays become more impactful, quite the opposite actually. So holding Stifle in the opening hand (with no wasteland available, with maybe a Dreadnought but not much backup) and having the opportunity to Stifle a fetch on turn 1 or 2 becomes quite an agonizing decision. Spend the Stifle proactively to attempt to disrupt the opponent or hold it to enable your own strategy or even create greater disruption a few turns down the road?

Almost always, you want to spend the Stifle in this situation. You are the control deck, and a lot of the time you catch people off guard. You might even beat them to hell with Factories and Magi in the mean time, and then when they finally get back into the game you drop a 12/12 with protection on them. This has happened countless times.

[Enigma]

Almost always, you want to spend the Stifle in this situation. You are the control deck, and a lot of the time you catch people off guard. You might even beat them to hell with Factories and Magi in the mean time, and then when they finally get back into the game you drop a 12/12 with protection on them. This has happened countless times.

You are so fucking right. Happenned to me a lot. On a game against Team america, I stifled his fetchs thrice early on the game and finished him with Nought just as he was recovering...

[xsockmonkeyx]

Rodney is my hero. :cool:

[Bane of the Living]

So after my T4 match I found out Ben (ForceofWill) had lost to AdN TES...WTF? It's one of Dreadstills best matchups and I was kinda surprised it had happened. I was expecting a T2 showdown amongst Dreadstill decks.


Ben has the third place curse. He takes it everywhere. I'm convinced he throws that match on purpose at this point.

Congrats on the win!

BTW fuckin masshole teams pwn legacy.

[zuzy]

Hallo,

Thank you for your report. I am thinkink, what to play on the next Legacy tournament. If ANT Combo or Dreadstill.

After reading your report, I am thinkink more and more to play Dreadstill. But my current version is with Green splash for Goyf with - 2x Spell Snare, 1x Trickbind, 1x Trinket Mage.

Why do you think, that Ur version is better than Ugr version?

Thank you

ZUZY