Outside Notes

[Mirrislegend]

Does writing "SB" on the inside of the sleeves (so it's visible over the card) of your sideboard cards constitute outside notes? Why or why not?

[cdr]

Is it a note from outside the match?

It should be obvious that it is.

[Mirrislegend]

I seemed to be the only one at FNM who thought it was illegal, so I figured that I would check.

[thefreakaccident]

A trick that I sometimes use, is keeping my sideboard in different sleeves...

You exchange sleeves with the board/MD, and don't re-sleeve the cards taken out... then you will have empty sleeves to show that you have not de-boarded.

[RoddyVR]

I assume that the point of the original question is basicaly "can i mark the front side of my sideboard cards so i can de-sideboard" easily. This would actualy come in very usefull for me too, since i tend to change my sideboard cards around quite a bit, and sometimes it can be a pain (to the point of having to keep a decklist on me) to remember which version of the sideboard i actualy started teh tournament with.

Wish i had thought of marking the front side of the sleeves...

If writing SB on them isnt allowed, how about just putting a big black dot on one of the corners?
I'd like to start doing the "shuffle your whole 15 card sideboard into deck, then take out 15 cards you dont need (even if its same 15)" cause i'm tired of people knowing that i'm only bringing in 1 card against em.
Marking the sideboard cards would help me enourmously in saving time pulling out the sideboard cards i dont need, in addition to the above mentioned de-siding.


A trick that I sometimes use, is keeping my sideboard in different sleeves...

You exchange sleeves with the board/MD, and don't re-sleeve the cards taken out... then you will have empty sleeves to show that you have not de-boarded.

i dont see how that's different from not having the sideboard in sleeves at all.

[cdr]

If writing SB on them isnt allowed, how about just putting a big black dot on one of the corners?

How is that different than writing "SB"? It's not.

If you need help to desideboard, you can reference whatever kind of notes you want *after* the match; you could even make a black dot on your sleeves as you are sideboarding in your match, as long as you replace those sleeves for the next match.

[revenge_inc]

Is it a note from outside the match?

It should be obvious that it is.

By that logic is having a decklist with you outside notes?

[cdr]

Quite obviously, yes.

[RoddyVR]

How is that different than writing "SB"? It's not.

If you need help to desideboard, you can reference whatever kind of notes you want *after* the match; you could even make a black dot on your sleeves as you are sideboarding in your match, as long as you replace those sleeves for the next match.

I figured it wasnt realy different from writing SB... but i was hoping that putting the dot on would be ok, and therefor writing SB would be fine too.

How is doing something like this any different from marking the front of the actual card. Anything from altered cards to even textless stuff (if you happen to have a sideboard composed entirely of textless cards), would be prety much the same thing.... no?

How about if my sideboard cards, and only my sideboard cards were white border, while my whole deck is black border?
and a follow up of "what if i made the borders that way, instead of them being that way to start"?

I know i probably shouldnt persue this line of "questioning" because it will end up with "its not legal, deal with it". But now that the idea of "marking" my sideboard has been put in my head, its tough to drop it, and i'd realy like to know where the rules line would be drawn.


Quite obviously, yes.

WHAT? having your own decklist is against the rules? what the hell... that just seems completely insane.
EDIT: oh... during the match... ok, that makes sence... i guess.

[Anusien]

How is doing something like this any different from marking the front of the actual card. Anything from altered cards to even textless stuff (if you happen to have a sideboard composed entirely of textless cards), would be prety much the same thing.... no?
Artistic modifications are fine, as long as that's all they are. If you only alter sideboard cards or similar, it's outside notes.


How about if my sideboard cards, and only my sideboard cards were white border, while my whole deck is black border?
and a follow up of "what if i made the borders that way, instead of them being that way to start"?

I know i probably shouldnt persue this line of "questioning" because it will end up with "its not legal, deal with it". But now that the idea of "marking" my sideboard has been put in my head, its tough to drop it, and i'd realy like to know where the rules line would be drawn.
The rules line is drawn at notes. No matter what you do, whether it's writing something on the card, marking the sleeve, selecting white border/black border or new face/old face, if the note was made before the match started and it is a note, it is Outside Assistance. You can't do anything to distinguish your sideboard cards from your maindeck cards as a note to yourself because then it's outside notes.

Edit: You can reference notes outside the match. So you can just carry around a copy of your decklist and de-sideboard by looking at it after the match ends, if you're worried you'll forget to de-sideboard?

[cdr]

The relevant section from the Universal Tournament Rules:


28. Taking Notes
Players are allowed to take brief written notes regarding the current match and may refer to
those notes while this match is in progress. Players are expected to take their notes in a timely
fashion. Players who take too much time will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the
DCI Penalty Guidelines.

During the draft portion of a tournament, players and spectators may not take any notes.
Players may not refer to outside notes during the match. This includes notes from previous
matches of that day.

Cards used in a tournament may not have writing on their faces other than signatures or
artistic modifications. Modifications may not obscure the artwork so as to make the card
unrecognizable. If modifications to a card are deemed by the Head Judge to constitute outside
notes or unsporting conduct, the player using such cards will be subject to the appropriate
provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.


The relevant section from the Penalty Guidelines:


132. Tournament Error — Outside Assistance

Definition
A player, spectator, or other tournament participant does any of the following:

• Seeks advice from others once he or she has sat for his or her match.
• Gives advice to players who have sat for their match.
• Any time after arriving at the play table, references notes made before the official beginning of the current
match, including Oracle text that has not been provided by a judge.

These criteria also apply to any deck construction portions of a limited tournament. Additionally, no notes of any
kind may be made during a draft.

Notes made during a match may be referenced during that match or between matches. Notes made outside the
current match may not be referenced once a player has sat for his or her match until after his or her match is
completed.

Examples
A. During a Magic tournament match, a player references sideboarding notes that were created before the
tournament.
B. A player in a Dreamblade tournament references notes about his opponent’s warband after arriving at the
table for his match.
C. A spectator at a Magic tournament points out the correct play to the player, who had not solicited the
information.

Philosophy
Tournaments test the skill of a player, not their ability to follow external advice or directions. Any strategy advice,
play advice, or construction advice from an external source is considered assistance. Notes made during a match are
legal to reference during the match or between future matches.

Penalty


Regular Competitive Professional
Warning Match Loss Match Loss

Spectators who commit this infraction may be asked to leave the venue if they are not enrolled in the tournament.

[RoddyVR]

hmm... Thanks for the detailed explanations. Guess i'll have to drop that idea... realy sounded like a good one too.

[sunshine]

On a slightly different topic but still under the heading of legal notes, I've always wondered if you are allowed to make "private" notes during a match and if so can you reference them at any time during the match? So, can I write down my sideboard once the game starts or similarly record play decisions or cards in my own hand throughout the game and not show this note to my opponent?

[cdr]

All notes are private except for notes that track "free information" like life totals, etc.

[Deep6er]

So here's a silly question.

What if you were to only have your sideboard be signed?

Like the fifteen cards in your sideboard are all signed by the artist, but no other card in the deck is. How would you rule that?

[Elficidium]

So here's a silly question.

What if you were to only have your sideboard be signed?

Like the fifteen cards in your sideboard are all signed by the artist, but no other card in the deck is. How would you rule that?

"If modifications to a card are deemed by the Head Judge to constitute outside
notes or unsporting conduct, the player using such cards will be subject to the appropriate
provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines. "

They've got it covered.

[cdr]

It certainly could look suspicious, but as long as your intent is not to use them as notes, you should be ok. You would have to be able to convince a judge.


So here's a silly question.

What if you were to only have your sideboard be signed?

Like the fifteen cards in your sideboard are all signed by the artist, but no other card in the deck is. How would you rule that?

[cdr]

You're being silly, to put it nicely. Don't try to sneak in outside notes, and you're not going to get into trouble for outside notes.

You can look at whatever decklists, notes, or whatever you want to when you're not playing a match.

Chill.

[Anusien]

Has anyone that is complaining ever gotten in trouble for this sort of infraction? Probably not. In this case it's very hard to notice unless you do something obvious like writing "SB" on the cards. It probably has to be actively pointed out. So don't say, "This one card is signed, that's how I remember to put it back in my Wishboard for the next game" and you're not likely to get into any trouble.

Also, as a clarification, just because you run 2 copies of a card and they're both foil (or white border, or whatever), it's not likely to be outside notes. In this case I'd look for two things: A) Intent, and B) a distinguishing characteristic. Yes, your 2 SB cards are foil, but do you have other foils in the maindeck? How about other nonfoils in the sideboard.

[Forbiddian]

Sasa, you're just being paranoid. You're never going to get a matchloss for that.


There is a certain amount of trust involved in a game of Magic, anyway. There are many ways to cheat and many ways the rules could be loopholed into players cheating. It's considered cheating - fraud for any judge to abuse their power to give players unjust matchlosses. At the very least, Judges are final arbiters and could easily abuse their power.

Like: Player A took the judge's favorite parking spot. At the start of the first game, the judge takes player A's deck for a deck check, bends all the dual lands, and claims that the person had a marked deck and gives him a DQNR and bans his player pass for 4 years. LOLOL! OWNED!


Seriously... not gonna fucking happen. If the judges hate you enough to give you a matchloss because of a Foil KGrip, you're probably the person at fault for being an asshat somehow.

How bad is your haircut, anyway?

[Aggro_zombies]

Sasa, you're just being paranoid. You're never going to get a matchloss for that.


There is a certain amount of trust involved in a game of Magic, anyway. There are many ways to cheat and many ways the rules could be loopholed into players cheating. It's considered cheating - fraud for any judge to abuse their power to give players unjust matchlosses. At the very least, Judges are final arbiters and could easily abuse their power.

Like: Player A took the judge's favorite parking spot. At the start of the first game, the judge takes player A's deck for a deck check, bends all the dual lands, and claims that the person had a marked deck and gives him a DQNR and bans his player pass for 4 years. LOLOL! OWNED!


Seriously... not gonna fucking happen. If the judges hate you enough to give you a matchloss because of a Foil KGrip, you're probably the person at fault for being an asshat somehow.

How bad is your haircut, anyway?
I was under the impression that judges can't deck check you unless asked to do so by your opponents.

Also, the issue of "marked cards" (artistic modifications, foiling, etc) can and should be checked with the head judge before the event. They generally don't slam you for foils unless your foils are really bent, or if there's a pattern to the foiling in your deck - for example, all your counterspells are foiled but nothing else is, etc. Most judges I've interacted with don't care as long as it's not suspicious and as long as your opponent can tell what the card is without having to look it up.

If you get a loss because of marked cards, 99% of the time it's your own damn fault.

Also, there's generally no reason you'd *need* outside notes, unless you have no idea how to play your deck or you've acquired everyone else's decklist beforehand. In either case, the fault lies with you.

[Giles]

Does writing "SB" on the inside of the sleeves (so it's visible over the card) of your sideboard cards constitute outside notes? Why or why not?

A little trick is use a different Language or edition to know what is in your SB (this only works if your have something that is SB and MD)

[Tosh]

A little trick is use a different Language or edition to know what is in your SB (this only works if your have something that is SB and MD)

That's still outside notes, since you're taking advantage of the fact that cards can be in different languages/borders. Just remember your sideboard, 15 cards is not that many to remember.

[Giles]

That's still outside notes, since you're taking advantage of the fact that cards can be in different languages/borders. Just remember your sideboard, 15 cards is not that many to remember.

It not really. It is just a bend of the rules. Granted, it is easy to figure out what you need in your sideboard since you are really boarding 4-8 cards most of the time

[Skeggi]

I don't really understand. How can a dot, the letters 'SB' or the artist's signature on your sideboard help people in any kind of way? I assume, at this level of playing, people know their decks and sideboards by heart...so what's the possible abuse here?

[cdr]

Is there much advantage gained by knowing what cards are in your sideboard? Probably not.

However, it quickly becomes impossible to tell what notes provide "strategic advice" and which do not, so all outside notes are disallowed.

[Aleksandr]

http://www.rudecactus.com/archives/mullet-thumb.jpg

[Elficidium]

I was under the impression that judges can't deck check you unless asked to do so by your opponents.

We can deckcheck every round and in between every round. Normally it's random (generated by the program) but if there's something that caught our attention we can choose to do a specific table. A bad haircut like sasa_batora's can cause this.



Also, the issue of "marked cards" (artistic modifications, foiling, etc) can and should be checked with the head judge before the event. They generally don't slam you for foils unless your foils are really bent, or if there's a pattern to the foiling in your deck - for example, all your counterspells are foiled but nothing else is, etc.

For foils it's pretty simple: we "slam" the deck down and try to cut on the foils/marked cards. Or we look at the backs and single out ones that stand out, then flip them all over.
Some judges are REALLy good at this. (thinking of Richard from the Netherlands)



Yes. Esp. with those lvl 0-1 zealous judges that investigate every piece of dirt on a jimmie hats, but totally miss that the deck contains 59 cards only...

Not true for as far as I've seen. everyone makes mistakes, but lv1's/0's are usually reminded of proper deckchecking habits quite often (I sure am) and quickly pick up on a decent system to do so. The most "zealous" judges would be some of the higher lv judges, who are far more suspicious of cheating and (unlike the lv1's) don't give the benefit of doubt.



And this is what I wrote about. And what if I do not have another foils in the maindeck? (But have another foils in SB.) Is this enough for someone to see me as a cheater? And my only defense is saying "no, I am not a cheater.. it just happens, that I got exactly those and those cards foiled (altered...)". Is this enough for you to make me go?

All cases of cheating are thoroughly investigated with written statements from both parties and aren't handed out lightly. All DQ's (which cheating automaticly is unless in some very strict situations) are taken seriously by wizards and are usually checked afterwards with the judge (or that's what I have been made to believe, didn't have to give one out yet).

[thefreakaccident]

i dont see how that's different from not having the sideboard in sleeves at all.

This way, you have empty sleeves to show that there are cards missing in your board...

After the match, you can put the cards where they belong again.

[Skeggi]

I always just count the cards in my sideboard and check for cards that don't belong there. Always worked just fine.

[thefreakaccident]

I always just count the cards in my sideboard and check for cards that don't belong there. Always worked just fine.

If you are constantly playing around with different decks/different board cards/different metas, then this could be an issue... I just save myself from having to think about it... it just comes down to:


OH! I have empty sleeves... which means...

[Nihil Credo]

It's been said before, but it's worth repeatinging that you can consult whatever decklists, notes, treaties, encyclopaedias, or Mentat advisors you want between matches, such as when de-sideboarding.

[Adan]

A trick that I sometimes use, is keeping my sideboard in different sleeves...

You exchange sleeves with the board/MD, and don't re-sleeve the cards taken out... then you will have empty sleeves to show that you have not de-boarded.

I play my SB without sleeves as of late because I can then buy 3 packs of KMCs/jap. Ultra Pros and sleeve exactly 5 decks with it (5x 60 = 300 Sleeves).

Wastes less sleeves. Just check your SB after every game (count your sideboardcards, restore your maindeck after a match has finished wtc.). And if the opponent plays Burning Wish or something, ask him to count his SB cards from time to time.

I guess it's also legal to carry around a copy of your decklist. A guy once had a list with boarding-plans with him and it was legal.

[cdr]

As has been stated many times in this thread, you can refer to whatever you wish outside your match, but bringing a decklist into your match (with boarding plans or no) would be blatant Outside Assistance.


I guess it's also legal to carry around a copy of your decklist. A guy once had a list with boarding-plans with him and it was legal.

[Adan]

So, they start to make childish foil and DCI thingies. And if I choose to play e.g. foil Krosan Grip (in my SB obv.), than it could be outside note. Just because I choose that Grip is not a MD material and that I want it foil. This is stupid.

I guess it won't matter if SB cards are signed or in a different language, but foils are different from that.

The reason why foil cards are treated differently is that their texture is different from regular, i.e. normal Magic cards. They have a plastic film which make the cards stiffer, but at the same time, the plastic film reacts to temperature which is the reason why foil cards are never straight or flat, but bent. You can take a foil Basicland or any foil crapcard and try to iron it with a flat iron to make it flat. The card will be flat for the first time of it's life, but after some minutes, after it has cooled down, the film shrinks and you will have a card that is bent even more than before.

That's the reason why I don't like foils, because judges can force you to substitute them with proxies.

edit: @cdr: I wasn't aware of that. Learned something again, thanks.

[Elficidium]

That's the reason why I don't like foils, because judges can force you to substitute them with proxies.


I've heard a lot of people complain about this. Just to get this off my chest:
if you only play 2 cards foil (PR Demigod and Figure) and the judge can cut your deck to have those cards on top every time, you shouldn't bitch about it. The potential for absue is way too big.

[Hopo]

I've heard a lot of people complain about this. Just to get this off my chest:
if you only play 2 cards foil (PR Demigod and Figure) and the judge can cut your deck to have those cards on top every time, you shouldn't bitch about it. The potential for absue is way too big.
I think it's still fucked up, as all printed wb/bb versions of cards of any language, foils or not, are tournament legal according to Wizards. It can just be a matter of card availability or whatever the reason is for you having foils and non-foils in you deck and sideboard, but I find it suspicious if judges can start ruling stuff like that.

Of course, some people just are cheating assholes. But still. Stop cashing with those fucking foils if they are so abusable.

This probably isn't really much of an issue in practice, but it's still dumb.

[Phoenix Ignition]

For foils it's pretty simple: we "slam" the deck down and try to cut on the foils/marked cards. Or we look at the backs and single out ones that stand out, then flip them all over.
Some judges are REALLy good at this. (thinking of Richard from the Netherlands)

This scares me. I play all my basic lands as foils because everyone knows they look cooler, but I don't spend the extra 20$+ for any other card to be foil in my deck. Would this be considered cheating?

I have no intent to cheat whatsoever, but if someone plops my deck down and looks at the foil cards, obviously they are gonna see that only the basic lands are foils.

I have to think that more people than just me are doing this these days.

[cdr]

It is your responsibility as a player to ensure that your deck does not contain marked cards. Foils can become marked easier than normal cards, especially older foils. If your foils are not marked, you're fine. If they are, why are you playing with them?

If your intent is to cheat by having marked foils, you are indeed headed for a Cheating - Manipulation of Game Materials disqualification.

If your foils are marked but it is determined you did not cheat or intend to cheat, the infraction is Marked Cards - Pattern which carries at game loss at Competitive level enforcement.

While having all foil lands and no other foils is a cause for suspicion, you are never going to be penalized just because of that.



This scares me. I play all my basic lands as foils because everyone knows they look cooler, but I don't spend the extra 20$+ for any other card to be foil in my deck. Would this be considered cheating?

I have no intent to cheat whatsoever, but if someone plops my deck down and looks at the foil cards, obviously they are gonna see that only the basic lands are foils.

I have to think that more people than just me are doing this these days.

[herbig]

What if I'm prepared for the tournament, and memorize the cards in my sideboard? Is that considered outside notes?

[Skeggi]

This scares me. I play all my basic lands as foils because everyone knows they look cooler, but I don't spend the extra 20$+ for any other card to be foil in my deck. Would this be considered cheating?

I have no intent to cheat whatsoever, but if someone plops my deck down and looks at the foil cards, obviously they are gonna see that only the basic lands are foils.

I have to think that more people than just me are doing this these days.

When you're going to a regular enforced tournament, the chances are slim you'll get a severe penalty for this. When going to a higher rules enforced tournament, you should be experienced enough not to make dumb 'mistakes' like this. You know there are always people who will try to cheat. Judges know this too, you shouldn't be naive and think that when you just look at the judge with big goo-goo eyes he'll make an exception for you, just because you wanted to make your manabase look cooler.

Besides, everyone knows guru (or beta) lands have much more style, and they aren't foil.


What if I'm prepared for the tournament, and memorize the cards in my sideboard? Is that considered outside notes?

Assuming this is a retorical question, what's your point?

[Anusien]

What if I'm prepared for the tournament, and memorize the cards in my sideboard? Is that considered outside notes?
Obviously not. There's a requirement in Tournament Error - Outside Assistance to consult some external force (notes, another player, a spectator).

[freakish777]

There's a requirement in Tournament Error - Outside Assistance to consult some external force (notes, another player, a spectator).

You clearly forgot that Herbig's memory is sooooo good that it manifests itself physically and can appear as likened to text on a flatscreen. Behold the text from January 26th, 1993 says "Let there be Counterspells."

[darkalucard]

New Question About Outside Notes:

Pre-Printed Life Total Pads,
They are for keeping track of you and your opponents life obvs, but...

What if I had a section to write my opponents name and/or deck?

A section for writing down their hand?
A gameplay notes section?


Would this be considered outside notes since it would be helping you remember to take in-game notes?
If it would be considered out-side game notes then where would you draw the line?
Since these things are not really enforced should I just use one thats obvs not crossing the line and if a Judge says something use blank paper and take the.. (warning is it)?

@ CDR
Your response prefered. :smile:

[Anusien]

What if I had a section to write my opponents name and/or deck?

A section for writing down their hand?
A gameplay notes section?


Would this be considered outside notes since it would be helping you remember to take in-game notes?
If it would be considered out-side game notes then where would you draw the line?
Since these things are not really enforced should I just use one thats obvs not crossing the line and if a Judge says something use blank paper and take the.. (warning is it)?
Well it depends on what you mean by "gameplay notes section". I think you're saying, "A section to write down things about how the game went like 'He went turn 1 Lackey, I forced, he had no gas. I win game1." That's completely fine. If it has pre-printed tips, that's obviously outside assistance.

Otherwise, this is very clearly not outside notes, since there aren't any, you know notes. This in no way provides outside assistance, so it's fine. Any notes you take during a match are fine to look at during that match.

Now however if you play the same opponent in the T8, you can't go back and reference the original notes after you sit down for the match. So you need to study up before you sit down for the match.

[cdr]

I don't think a reasonable person would interpret having having a section for notes on your notepad as outside notes.

If it was, the infraction is OA, which as posted earlier is a warning at Regular (casual) and a match loss at Competitive and Professional.