Using Crucible of Worlds to make land-drops

[raharu]

3 things in my life coincided recently:

The first: Frogboy's Play More Land thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11645).

The second: I've been talking a lot to a friend of mine that plays Vintage U-based control.

The third: I've re-kindled my interesting in compressed-curve control.

The deck is a Lim-Dul's Vault pseudo-toolbox deck, playing Counterbalance and whatnot with a few 'bullets' or 'tutor' targets. I was left with a few slots open and was thinking about what to use there when my Vintage friend brought up Crucible of Worlds in regards to his current Ubw control deck, and it sounded like a good idea. The context Crucible was brought up in was a God-Hand (that, by chance, isn't legal here :tongue:), but it got me thinking:

Since I'm not playing a ton of lands, and the control mirror is most likely going to be decided by who 'lands' the most lands, why not play Crucible as a pseudo bullet in the control match? Making sustained land drops from turn 3 onward until you don't have any more fetch-targets in the deck sounds pretty nice. Some Landstill builds are actually cutting it from the deck as a one-of, so naturally, this begs the question: why don't more control decks play Crucible, and why is it normally a one-of?

tl;dr Why isn't Crucible of Worlds more popular in control decks playing fetchlands? Is the concept of using Crucible to assure land-drops not viable?

[Nihil Credo]

I never cut it from Wish-Landstill, myself. Part of that is how strong it is in the mirror; part is how much it helps against all sorts of LD decks (from Stifle/Waste ones to Armageddon Stax).

[raharu]

I never cut it from Wish-Landstill, myself. Part of that is how strong it is in the mirror; part is how much it helps against all sorts of LD decks (from Stifle/Waste ones to Armageddon Stax).
Well, that kinda makes me wonder, if you're going to jump through Cunning Wish -> Enlightened Tutor -> Crucible hoops, why not just play two or three in the main instead of just the one (IIRC you only play one MD)?

[Shugyosha]

Well, that kinda makes me wonder, if you're going to jump through Cunning Wish -> Enlightened Tutor -> Crucible hoops, why not just play two or three in the main instead of just the one (IIRC you only play one MD)?

Tutors and Wishes are much more flexible obviously. There are a lot of matches where a Crucible won't do much and a Explosives or an Extirpate for example are much better.

[mercenarybdu]

I slipped two copies in my Landstill deck and it has helped me considerablly in all of those tight spots when it came to fetching lands.

[raharu]

Tutors and Wishes are much more flexible obviously. There are a lot of matches where a Crucible won't do much and a Explosives or an Extirpate for example are much better.
Well, obviously, but why not have your cake (Crucible) and eat it (Wish Targets) too?

[Omega]

2 copies of crucible sound like a good idea in a deck like landstill. Recur man-land and wasteland. Also to make sure you 1 land drop per turn.

Robert

[raharu]

2 copies of crucible sound like a good idea in a deck like landstill. Recur man-land and wasteland. Also to make sure you 1 land drop per turn.

Robert
Yeah, but I'm thinking more in non-Landstill Control, not just Landstill. We know it's good there... I just wonder why A) it isn't more played, and B) why Landstill is cutting it.

[THEchubbymuffin]

I just played against a random person on MWS, and Crucible + Exploration + fetch land = amazing advantage.

Edit: it was a variant of the Rock.

[raharu]

I just played against a random person on MWS, and Crucible + Exploration + fetch land = amazing advantage.

Edit: it was a variant of the Rock.
In my casual Dragons!!! list, I played Asuza, Lost but Seeking, Crucible, and Terramorphic Expanse. Just stupid.

In more practical terms, I'm thinking CoW is good. I'll try to incorporate them into some sort of Ubw control. I'm not sure how hard to lean on it, though. (i.e. bother with Dust Bowl, manlands, etc.). I'm thinking a singleton Academy Ruins, a singleton Dust Bowl, and leaving it at that.

[Bardo]

I was left with a few slots open and was thinking about what to use there when my Vintage friend brought up Crucible of Worlds in regards to his current Ubw control deck, and it sounded like a good idea.

Well, three mana in Vintage is like half as much mana as it is in Legacy. When every deck starts with SoLoMoxenCrypt, 3 mana isn't very much. In Legacy, Chrome Mox isn't viable in Control shells, because a lot of these decks run Deed and the gain in tempo is offset by the loss in card advantage. Mox Diamond has problems for different reasons in control. So, yeah, not convinced on the correlation there.


Why isn't Crucible of Worlds more popular in control decks playing fetchlands? Is the concept of using Crucible to assure land-drops not viable?

It's a problem of investment vs. benefit. You're spending a card + 3 mana at sorc speed for a permanent that can regrow spent fetchlands; but Crucible is much more powerful regrowing spent Wastelands and Factories, and then, only vs. opposing control decks, because of the speed at which it operates (you still only get one land drop a turn, unlike having Exploration or Fastbond in play).

Other than its power in the mirror or pseudo-mirror, Crucible really suffers from its speed, cost and vulnerability to removal against everything else. Against Combo, it suffers from lack of relevance; and frequently against aggro too. Those are big hurdles.

But when it works, it [I]really works and can just win games.

If you just want to keep making land drops, I suggest Top + fetchlands.

[dahcmai]

I've been making a habit of adding Crucible in any deck I have that has black just so I can have a random Raven's Crime. Every land you draw turns into a Disrupting Scepter hit, then you just play the land as normal.

[frogboy]

Other than its power in the mirror or pseudo-mirror, Crucible really suffers from its speed, cost and vulnerability to removal against everything else. Against Combo, it suffers from lack of relevance; and frequently against aggro too. Those are big hurdles.

Plus, in the mirror, it's a little embarrassing to tap out for something fairly irrelevant and let the other guy stick Counterbalance or resolve Intution or something equally unfair.

[Nihil Credo]

Depends on which mirror. If it involves Factories and Wastelands, Crucible is near the top of the list of cards you want to resolve.

[Mordel]

I've always thought of crucible as a staple in nearly most control deck in the format right now. Not necessarily a four-of or even three-of, but a necessary evil anyway. Crucible seems exceptionally strong in landstill if only for the fact it gives you massive inevitability with your man lands. Maybe I just don't know enough about landstill, but I always thought landstill ran at least two crucibles as staple slots.

[Finn]

I would fear a crucible coming down across from me if I thought it would keep my opponent from having excess land. That is - he isn't topdecking land in addition to the stuff available out of the graveyard. And at 3-mana, it is hardly going to be the difference between having enough early on and not. Frankly, I am quite relieved to see it come down across from me. It is not a threat. It is not any particular kind of defense. Very few Legacy decks (even control) need more than a few mana for their spells. I never seem to want to waste a spell destroying it. There have been exceptions, to be sure. But in general, I think it is rather weak.

As for the recurring Wasteland stuff, etc - if that is going to kill you frequently, you deserve to lose for building a house of cards.

[Media314r8]

Having crucible to make land drops is not ~quite~ win-more, but it's close, as you allready have three lands in play. At three land, you can cast standstill through a daze, or activate top and still have counterspell mana open. More often than not, if I have three lands in play in Landstill and can survive a turn doing nothing, I've stabalized and barring me not having a counter for a 'geddon effect, I can just stall the game/drop a standstill and draw into more lands. The times I'm really hurting to hit land drops is when my opponent turn two-on-the-play hymns me/sinkholes/wastes/stifles a fetch and I cannot hit my third land drop. If top and brainstorm cannot ensure you hit your necesary land drops, crucible is just going to sit dead in your hand. I believe it's a one-of as in the mirror or a long control matchup, it can decide the game (slowly, but decisivly) when tempo is not an issue. In most matches, it's just a clunky, slow artifact that may or may not affect the game.

[Mantis]

I think Crucible sucks in any deck other than Stax. If you play slow control, most opponent are racing you, hoping you don't reach the lategame where you have a significant advantage. How is a Crucible of Worlds going to help you achieve the lategame? And if you reach the lategame, how is Crucible of Worlds going to stop the assault? It just doesn't seem to fit your plan all that well. If it would have costed 2 mana, it would be really good as it actually helps you reach the lategame. At 3 mana you already reached the lategame or should have no trouble reaching it.

Also, if you are looking to make all your land drops, why not just play another land instead of the Crucible?


I believe it's a one-of as in the mirror or a long control matchup, it can decide the game (slowly, but decisivly) when tempo is not an issue. In most matches, it's just a clunky, slow artifact that may or may not affect the game.
That means a one-of in the sideboard in control decks if you expect to play against control matchups?

[Media314r8]

That means a one-of in the sideboard in control decks if you expect to play against control matchups?

I cannot understand this sentence/statement. I was trying to say that it is included as a one-of in the MB of many Landstill decks, though I recently cut mine as I'm testing two Elsperith (whatever) Knight Errant in place of 1 crucible, 1 decree.

[FoolofaTook]

I think Crucible sucks in any deck other than Stax. If you play slow control, most opponent are racing you, hoping you don't reach the lategame where you have a significant advantage. How is a Crucible of Worlds going to help you achieve the lategame? And if you reach the lategame, how is Crucible of Worlds going to stop the assault? It just doesn't seem to fit your plan all that well. If it would have costed 2 mana, it would be really good as it actually helps you reach the lategame. At 3 mana you already reached the lategame or should have no trouble reaching it.

Also, if you are looking to make all your land drops, why not just play another land instead of the Crucible?


That means a one-of in the sideboard in control decks if you expect to play against control matchups?

Crucible-Wasteland is a win against a lot of decks in the format. There's nothing wrong with devoting a couple of slots in a control deck to give it a completely unique and powerful way to control the game. If you can't afford to spend a couple of slots this way the odds are that your control scheme isn't strong enough to control the meta anyway.

[Mantis]

I cannot understand this sentence/statement. I was trying to say that it is included as a one-of in the MB of many Landstill decks, though I recently cut mine as I'm testing two Elsperith (whatever) Knight Errant in place of 1 crucible, 1 decree.
I just asked you a question as it wasn't clear to me what you meant. Now it is, so thank you. Though I still do not agree with running one in the mainboard, but I don't think Landstill is very good at the moment anyway and ITF runs Loam which is way better IMO.