[Discussion] Gaddock Teeg

[kilukru]

Now that Ad nauseum is running aroud the format you think this guy will start to be a sideboard staple? Or is he still to narrow? And what deck can accomodate his casting cost?

I still havent got a lot of experience in the format and im curious as your tought on this.

[meanee]

He has already startet seeing some play in my environment. Even as a main-board staple.
I think the zoo deck is quite viable right now, and you have to play something mainboard, that gives you an edge against combo, and teeg kinda hates on all combo-decks in the format.

- meanee

[Atwa]

I don't think so.

The only thing Gaddock Teeg stops now, in addition to the past is Ad Nauseum itself. It already stopped the Kill cards of combo (Tendrills, Charbelcher and EtW), now it also stops their engine. I don't think it matters that much.

Combo has been able to deal with him before, that hasn't changed a bit.

[meanee]

But maybe combo will see more play now that adn has been printed... Just maybe. If that is indeed the case, then I can't see why gaddock teeg wouldn't also see a lot more play (as I think zoo is a great deck at the moment)...

- meanee

[Atwa]

Maybe, but that would be because of a shift in the metagame. It has got nothing to do with Gaddock Teeg becomming more effective against Combo.

[b4r0n]

Also, it's worth noting that Gaddock Teeg will often be too slow to do anything against Ad Nauseam based decks. You may not live to see turn 2.

[Forbiddian]

Meddling Mage is, for all intents and purposes, strictly better than Gaddok Teeg (outside of color requirements).

Meddling Mage is actually decent against everything, and you can pick enablers like Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor. Also, two Meddling Mages is often game against combo (with one being a significant trip up as well). Gaddok, you can't lock the game with multiples (multiples are not even bears), and your opponent can just dig grapeshot and win. Doesn't seem effective at all.

Also, he's a bear against almost every deck (as opposed to MM, which does something).

He counters what? Geddon, Wrath of God, Damnation? Who plays that crap? He stops EE and Chalice, but MM could do that anyway.



Unless your deck is GW Zoo (in which case you're fucked against TES anyway), you should be running 4 MMs before you even think about 1 Gaddok Teeg.

And sideboard you have better options, like Orim's Chant and Abeyance.

[The Rack]

I like Teeg better than most people because he's good against control too. Stops FoF, Wrath, EE, Chalice, Tendrils, AdN, Belcher, and a lot more. A lot of rogue decks revolve around a certain bomb card that is usually higher than 3cc. He's a great GWish target and I love him mainboard too.

[Roman Candle]

Meddling Mage is, for all intents and purposes, strictly better than Gaddok Teeg (outside of color requirements).

Meddling Mage is actually decent against everything, and you can pick enablers like Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor. Also, two Meddling Mages is often game against combo (with one being a significant trip up as well). Gaddok, you can't lock the game with multiples (multiples are not even bears), and your opponent can just dig grapeshot and win. Doesn't seem effective at all.

Since when does combo play Grapeshot?


Also, he's a bear against almost every deck (as opposed to MM, which does something).

He counters what? Geddon, Wrath of God, Damnation? Who plays that crap?

Teeg stops Belcher, WoG, Humility, FoF, Force of Will, EE, Chalice, Belcher, Ad Nauseam, Tendrils, Warrens, IGG, etc. all at the same time. MM can only pick one.


He stops EE and Chalice, but MM could do that anyway.

But then MM can't stop other stuff like Teeg can.

I'm not totally sure which I like better, to be honest. I think Teeg might actually be better in the current meta, just because he stops AdN, Tendrils, IGG, and Warrens all in one go. He's also a lot better in the Landstill Matchup. But they're both lackluster against any deck that plays creatures, since they're so fragile.

I dunno, it seems like Teeg would be better in more matchups.

[TrialByFire]

Since when does combo play Grapeshot?

TES has played one in the SB to wish for for a couple of months now I believe. For the exact reason that Teeg and MM exist.

[Roman Candle]

TES has played one in the SB to wish for for a couple of months now I believe. For the exact reason that Teeg and MM exist.

Alright, but that still makes it that much harder to combo out for them. With a Mage on the board, they can drop AdN, draw like 12 cards, and find bounce or a Burning Wish for the alternate win condition. Teeg doesn't let them drop AdN. Or, if you play MM on AdN, they can go for the IGG loop or Diminishing Returns.

I definitely err on the side of Teeg, just because he can be so good in the Landstill matchup and is incredible against combo.

[FoolofaTook]

Gaddock Teeg already sees a lot of use usually as a one-of in Survival or Rock variants. What we haven't seen a lot of yet is Gaddock Teeg in UGW control. I think that might change in the near future.

[emidln]

I hope people will consider him a sideboard staple. Ad Nauseam decks utilizing Mystical Tutor will have Slaughter Pact, Chain of Vapor, or Echoing Truth ready for this guy, if they don't just resolve a Doomsday and win via Grapeshot or stack the removal spell into their 5 cards. Only TES decks have any minor difficulty with this, and even they have Burning Wish -> Grapeshot/Pyroclasm (and the ability to just win turn 1 anyway).

[Forbiddian]

Since when does combo play Grapeshot?



Board as a wish target, like I said. MM can stop that by naming BW.




Teeg stops Belcher, WoG, Humility, FoF, Force of Will, EE, Chalice, Belcher, Ad Nauseam, Tendrils, Warrens, IGG, etc. all at the same time. MM can only pick one.



Belcher is stopped by MM as well. You also mentioned Belcher twice. I know Teeg stops Belcher an infinite number of times (four times per game, to be precise), but it's still pretty dumb.

Barely any decklists have WoG or Damnation. UW Landstill only, I think, and then MM can just name WoG.

FoF isn't played at all, I don't think. Or as like one copy.

Force of Will IS played, but MM can name Force as well (or something more relevant).

EE and Chalice are relevant (but I mentioned them and very few decks run both, so MM can name the relevant threat if it's really so relevant).

Tendrils, Warrens, IGG, Ad Nauseum... ARE ALL IN THE SAME DECK. That deck just goes: BW for Grapeshot, win. I went over that. TES can easily deal with Teeg.

Also, "all at the same time" ?!?!?!? Other than TES and UW Landstill, I can't think of ANY deck that runs more than 1 of those cards. Teeg is good against UW Landstill, but that's like <.001% of the meta, and there are much better cards against TES.


My point is: Mainboard, Teeg is dead or nearly dead against every deck except UW and TES. Wildfire and Armageddon Stax as well, but they're not common. MM is still very good against those decks, and Pikula is MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger against every other deck.

Sideboard, Teeg is just dumb. Orim's Chant is basically strictly better.




I dunno, it seems like Teeg would be better in more matchups.

That's ridiculous. Which matchups?

Meddling Mage is never dead. Even against Ichorid, it can name Cabal Therapy (better than Teeg which can only name Dread Return). Teeg is good against UW Landstill, TES, and Armageddon Stax. And then random he's sometimes decent, but MM is probably better anyway.

Teeg is a 2-color cost, legendary bear against: Goblins, Enchantress, Faerie Stompy, other Zoo decks, Goyf Sligh, Aggro Loam, Faeries, Ichorid (99% dead), Survival, and Threshold.

He's worse against: Burn, MUC, ITF, Dreadstill, and Landstill of all variants not UW. Also I think he's worse against TES, mainly because you can name BW to force them to go AdN and you can play more than one MM to win the game.

He's better against: Landstill UW, Stax, uhm... Wildfire?

The only excuse for running Teeg is: "My entire meta is Stax and Landstill, and Wildfire is extremely popular... and there was a sale on Fact or Fictions the previous week: 4 for 1 dollar... and there was also a sale on EE."

Oh, there's one more: "I play Legacy, but don't run U." But seriously, get with the times. That's not gonna happen.

[Maveric78f]

Gaddock stops FoW and it's its best justification. You would never play it in a UGW control, because you would run FoW over it.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Now that Ad nauseum is running aroud the format you think this guy will start to be a sideboard staple?


My point is: Mainboard, Teeg is dead or nearly dead against every deck except UW and TES. Wildfire and Armageddon Stax as well, but they're not common. MM is still very good against those decks, and Pikula is MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger against every other deck.
Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage are both horrible cards against most Legacy decks. The question posed at the beginning of the thread is about Gaddock Teeg as a sideboard card (specifically, one to combat Ad Nauseam combo decks), so why don't we limit ourselves to discussing the card in that context?


Sideboard, Teeg is just dumb. Orim's Chant is basically strictly better.
Can you flesh this out a little more? Chant certainly bears consideration as a sideboard tool against combo decks, but it may not be superior to Gaddock Teeg in aggressive, creature-based decks. Having to hold :w: open when you would much rather be tapping out to put pressure on the opponent not only represents a huge investment in mana; it also telegraphs the Chant to your opponent, who can then draw it out with a Thoughtseize or a Chant of their own.

There may also be situations in which it is correct to board more than four anti-combo cards in your sideboard. Is it not possible that you could want some copies of Gaddock Teeg to compliment your playset of Chants, despite the latter being "strictly better?"

[FoolofaTook]

Gaddock stops FoW and it's its best justification. You would never play it in a UGW control, because you would run FoW over it.

Force of Will is only one consideration. There are a lot of control decks that run singleton cards that potentially hurt them, however they run the card because they'll deploy it when it hurts the other guy more.

Gaddock Teeg stops Tendrils of Agony, Empty The Warrens, Smokestack, Goblin Charbelcher, Ad Nauseum, Nevinyrral's Disk, Engineered Explosives played for 4 to get around Counterbalance, Fact or Fiction, Decree of Justice, Humility, Moat, Wrath of God, Damnation, Deep Analysis, Dread Return, Armageddon, Garruk Wildspeaker, Ajani Vengeant, Tezzeret The Seeker and a lot of other potential bombs that see play less often but enough that they hurt if you can't account for them.

In a UGW Control shell that used Survival of the Fittest to find a middling sized toolkit and that planned to kill with Goyfs Gaddock Teeg would be a bombshell in many matchups. You could use him with a singleton Meddling Mage or as the substitute. Drop Meddling Mage against Belcher, TES or a Stax deck and you might hold them off based largely on the drop or you might get rolled when the other things turned up with the wherewithal to protect them. Drop Gaddock Teeg on that deck and they can't beat you until they've handled him.

[Roman Candle]

Board as a wish target, like I said. MM can stop that by naming BW.

And then you lose to Tendrils.


Belcher is stopped by MM as well. You also mentioned Belcher twice. I know Teeg stops Belcher an infinite number of times (four times per game, to be precise), but it's still pretty dumb.

OMG, I made a mistake, my argument must be invalid and my parents must have been Communists.

/sarcasm.


Barely any decklists have WoG or Damnation. UW Landstill only, I think, and then MM can just name WoG.

FoF isn't played at all, I don't think. Or as like one copy.

Most Landstill builds I've seen run 3 WoG's and 2 FoF's, alongside 3 EE's, 4 FoW's, and 2 Humility. Teeg comes down and stops all of those. With MM, you have to pick one.


Force of Will IS played, but MM can name Force as well (or something more relevant).

But if MM chooses FoW, it won't stop EE, Humility, FoF, etc. Teeg stops all of them.


EE and Chalice are relevant (but I mentioned them and very few decks run both, so MM can name the relevant threat if it's really so relevant).

See above.

Tendrils, Warrens, IGG, Ad Nauseum... ARE ALL IN THE SAME DECK. That deck just goes: BW for Grapeshot, win. I went over that. TES can easily deal with Teeg.

I don't think you realize how hard it is to win with Grapeshot. It's not as easy as going BW, I win. It takes twice as much storm as Tendrils.

And yes, they are all in the same deck. Wouldn't that make Teeg better than MM in that matchup?


Also, "all at the same time" ?!?!?!? Other than TES and UW Landstill, I can't think of ANY deck that runs more than 1 of those cards. Teeg is good against UW Landstill, but that's like <.001% of the meta, and there are much better cards against TES.

And considering this conversation was regarding the combo matchup, I think the argument is valid.

Also, UW Landstill is a DtB... more than .001% of the meta. And I didn't argue that there weren't better cards for the matchup, I argued that it was better than MM for the matchup. Teeg backed by another form of disruption, though, can be very strong against combo.


My point is: Mainboard, Teeg is dead or nearly dead against every deck except UW and TES. Wildfire and Armageddon Stax as well, but they're not common. MM is still very good against those decks, and Pikula is MUCH MUCH MUCH stronger against every other deck.

Sideboard, Teeg is just dumb. Orim's Chant is basically strictly better.




That's ridiculous. Which matchups?

Meddling Mage is never dead. Even against Ichorid, it can name Cabal Therapy (better than Teeg which can only name Dread Return). Teeg is good against UW Landstill, TES, and Armageddon Stax. And then random he's sometimes decent, but MM is probably better anyway.

Teeg is a 2-color cost, legendary bear against: Goblins, Enchantress, Faerie Stompy, other Zoo decks, Goyf Sligh, Aggro Loam, Faeries, Ichorid (99% dead), Survival, and Threshold.

He's worse against: Burn, MUC, ITF, Dreadstill, and Landstill of all variants not UW. Also I think he's worse against TES, mainly because you can name BW to force them to go AdN and you can play more than one MM to win the game.

He's better against: Landstill UW, Stax, uhm... Wildfire?

The only excuse for running Teeg is: "My entire meta is Stax and Landstill, and Wildfire is extremely popular... and there was a sale on Fact or Fictions the previous week: 4 for 1 dollar... and there was also a sale on EE."

Oh, there's one more: "I play Legacy, but don't run U." But seriously, get with the times. That's not gonna happen.

The problem is, both of them are sucky creatures. MM is hardly going to make a difference in ANY matchup, whereas Teeg can actually be really good in some matchups. To be honest, though, I don't think a 2/2 for 2 is worth running in Legacy anymore outside of the combo matchup, and even there, creatures aren't as good as hate that can't be bounced. I mean, do you honestly expect MM to make or break a game against Thresh? Or Burn? Or MuC? Creatures in this format have to do something relevant. Mongoose and Goyf both beat for a hell of a lot for their cost, and Mongoose has shroud. Confidant replaces itself. I wouldn't run either of them maindeck, so how good they are against Thresh and Dreadstill is irrelevant. I'm only going to side MM in for the combo matchup, whereas I would side in Teeg for the combo matchup as well as the Landstill and Stax matchups.

And I don't understand how Mage is better than Teeg in the combo matchup. You can play more than one MM at a time... or you can play one Teeg and cut off even more business spells. And 'forcing' them to use AdN doesn't seem like a relevant argument, considering that's what they plan to do a majority of the time anyway.

[Patrick]

Now that Ad nauseum is running aroud the format you think this guy will start to be a sideboard staple? Or is he still to narrow? And what deck can accomodate his casting cost?

I still havent got a lot of experience in the format and im curious as your tought on this.

Gaddok Teeg is so good even without Ad Nauseum all over the place. As it turns out, stopping anything that's not a creature over 4 CC can wreck some peoples lives.

[kilukru]

Gaddock is good or bad depending on our philosophy at this game got it! personal choice after all,.

Both side have strong arguments!

Thats what i call a well designed card, everyboy see the potential, but half the crowd cry The Suck! and the the other half are shafted over it (ok I might have taken this to the extrem but it mark my point)

I will come to the same conclusion that i did for extirpate : the card is good when played by the right deck and/or the right meta, it's not format breaking and shoulnd not be overplayed since in that condition it will be bad more often than good.

thanks for the arguments guy's

[Forbiddian]

The problem is, both of them are sucky creatures. MM is hardly going to make a difference in ANY matchup, whereas Teeg can actually be really good in some matchups....

I mean, do you honestly expect MM to make or break a game against Thresh? Or Burn? Or MuC?

Yes, I except MM to make an impact, In the burn matchup, if your opponent has a Lightning Bolt in hand and you name LB, it takes away a card. Or you could name a problematic card like Pyrostatic Pillar or Flames of the Blood Hand (depending on what would prevent you from winning the game). Your opponent then has to divert resources to dealing with it (instead of Teeg, which does nothing).

Or name Rift Bolt after your opponent suspends one. Those 3 hps might be the difference.

Thresh you can name Swords or Lightning Bolt (depending on the version) or Tarmogoyf if it's UG. That's a huge bomb.

MUC probably wouldn't matter so much, but naming Vedalken Shackles or Powder Keg ensures that you can stick around to win.


Your original argument was that Teeg is better in more matchups, but your new argument is that Teeg is very good in like 2 matchups and complete crap in other MUs whereas MM is solid in every matchup (but that's not good enough).

If you're arguing about SB, Teeg is bad. There are better bombs.
If you're arguing about sticking him in the MB over Pikula, you'd better have a massively distorted metagame.


My point about two mages >> two Teegs was that one of either is not going to appreciatively affect the game. The first MM or Teeg would usually be good to counter AdN. Teeg can also counter the IGG backup plan, but that's only one card and requires 6 mana (counting the tutor) and an empty hand, so it's usually a last resort. Odds are they'll go for BW first anyway to clear your dudes and then AdN.

In the meantime, AdN can just keep drawing cards (at least 3 more) before having to deal with Teeg or MM.

The second Mage on BW stops their answer and gives you the win. With a second Teeg, you're in the same situation.


I think that two mages happen more often than IGG or bare Tendrils.

The fact that you didn't even know about Grapeshot (you seemed to think and still seem to think that Teeg is GG against TES), indicates that you probably haven't played with TES at all, and especially not TES vs. (or with) MMs or Teegs.

I've played TES against UGW with MM and UGW with Teeg, and I've found that MM is infinitely scarier. With a Teeg on the board, I can wait an eternity to see enough land to go: Orim's Chant --> Red Ritual --> Dark Ritual --> Burning Wish --> Grapeshot --> AdN --> Shit --> Tendrils.

With Meddling Mages instead, I have to worry about my opponent topping into a second Mage and shutting me down, so I might have to try to go off without Chant backup and run into a Force of Will.

Of course, you might want to run 1 Teeg AND Meddling Mages (because the effects are slightly cumulative). I don't know if that justifies playing such a useless creature against Thresh, though.

[morgan_coke]

vs. Combo decks, Ethersworn Canonist is literally 100x better. I originally ran Teeg in extended alongside Canonist as an anti-combo card, but he was just too easily dealt with. I replaced him as the secondary combo hate card with Tidehollow Sculler and have been significantly more happy with the results.

So yeah. If you're thinking about running a two mana anti-combo bear, run Canonist well before you start looking at Teeg. Canonist's "slowing" ability (reducing the amount of search spells combo can use to one per turn) really buys you significantly more time than Teeg's "no win conditions" ability does. Also, Canonist plays nice with Chalice vs. combo decks, Teeg doesn't.

[emidln]

vs. Combo decks, Ethersworn Canonist is literally 100x better. I originally ran Teeg in extended alongside Canonist as an anti-combo card, but he was just too easily dealt with. I replaced him as the secondary combo hate card with Tidehollow Sculler and have been significantly more happy with the results.

So yeah. If you're thinking about running a two mana anti-combo bear, run Canonist well before you start looking at Teeg. Canonist's "slowing" ability (reducing the amount of search spells combo can use to one per turn) really buys you significantly more time than Teeg's "no win conditions" ability does. Also, Canonist plays nice with Chalice vs. combo decks, Teeg doesn't.

I'm currently 13-0 in games against opponents who have dropped Ethersworn Canonist with various incarnations of FT (those playing Doomsday, Ad Nauseam, and both). The card isn't scary at all. It's handled by every standard solution (Krosan Grip, Wipe Away, Echoing Truth, Rushing River, Slaughter Pact, Ancient Grudge, Chain of Vapor) and can even be won through (I've done it naturally twice with just double tops and a mystical turor and three times by just playing Doomsday for Helm of Awakening, Tendrils, 3 cards and passing). Bad Rule of Laws are exactly that: bad.

If you're looking to affect Ad Nauseam decks then Meddling Mage, Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Orim's Chant, and Pyrostatic Pillar will all be more effective than either Gaddock Teeg or Ethersworn Canonist.

[The Rack]

Forbiddian, Teeg stops Fireblast i n the burn matchup, stopped it long enough to win me the game. FOr all the arguments saying that combo decks have answers to MM and Teeg. It's true, they do have a lot of answers however, they aren't going to have those answers all the time. Teeg is the wrench thats thrown in the machine of a combo deck. It slows them down. That's what MM does too. If meddling mage names something the combo deck will use one of its many outs to thwart MM. They are both good but Teeg hits a lot more stuff than MM. Teeg isn't suppose to be your main plan against combo, however with countermagic or discard it slows them down enough to make a real impact. They can't drop that topdecked AdN if Teeg is in play.

[emidln]

Forbiddian, Teeg stops Fireblast i n the burn matchup, stopped it long enough to win me the game. FOr all the arguments saying that combo decks have answers to MM and Teeg. It's true, they do have a lot of answers however, they aren't going to have those answers all the time. Teeg is the wrench thats thrown in the machine of a combo deck. It slows them down. That's what MM does too. If meddling mage names something the combo deck will use one of its many outs to thwart MM. They are both good but Teeg hits a lot more stuff than MM. Teeg isn't suppose to be your main plan against combo, however with countermagic or discard it slows them down enough to make a real impact. They can't drop that topdecked AdN if Teeg is in play.

If you are playing Meddling Mage on anything besides Orim's Chant against Tendrils combo with a deck packing countermagic (e.g. Threshold, Dreadstill, or Landstill), you are a terrible player and deserve to lose. The goal of the disruption bear in the matchup is to let the rest of your deck function. Teeg lets your opponent resolve their single most dangerous card and then win however they choose and still doesn't address the major issue that disruptive bears have: e.g. split-second removal.

[The Rack]

I guess the difference is that I'm more of a black mage than a blue one so my fight against combo is discard. Discard is good but can't stop that topdeck to happen. That's where Teeg fills in the gaps. If I can discard that single tutor to kill my Teeg before I play him he becomes that much better because he stalls for a lot longer. Teeg stops the topdecked AdN and IGG that can win them the game just by casting it... usually. When I played against TFA playing fetchland tendrils against my Funkbrew I lost because he had topdecked the actual Slaughter Pact the turn before I was lethal. I had discarded his tutor which kept him from doing a lot of things. Even when Teeg isn't a huge problem people don;t like seeing him. He messes with the player that doesn't think when he lets it resolve.

[FoolofaTook]

If you are playing Meddling Mage on anything besides Orim's Chant against Tendrils combo with a deck packing countermagic (e.g. Threshold, Dreadstill, or Landstill), you are a terrible player and deserve to lose. The goal of the disruption bear in the matchup is to let the rest of your deck function. Teeg lets your opponent resolve their single most dangerous card and then win however they choose and still doesn't address the major issue that disruptive bears have: e.g. split-second removal.

Split-second removal is going to function regardless of whether or not you have Meddling Mage or Gaddock Teeg in play. Wipe Away is going to put them back in your hand and then you have the same battle over Orim's Chant in either scenario.

If you have CB/Top up you've already won against combo about 90% of the time so we can leave those scenarios largely out of the conversation.

What we're left with is the question of whether you want to fight over Orim's Chant with a minor worry about Burning Wish in the back of your mind or whether you want to fight over the 4cc bombs as they come up. There are arguments both ways here.

In the case where you have no counters in hand or low counters you definitely want Gaddock Teeg out there. Meddling Mage on Orim's Chant turns into an elaborate bluff effectively in this situation because if they go off you're dead. A good player will sculpt his hand for a few turns and then if Wipe Away doesn't show up for them they'll take a run at you to see what happens. Gaddock Teeg however holds the game for you firmly in this situation until they draw removal because the Orim's Chants are just as dead for them as they are under the Meddling Mage. Their Orim's Chant bluffs to draw out counters aren't going to do anything for them because you can't respond with counters you don't have, and they can't take advantage of your lack of counters by going off (except with small non-Iggy'd BW for Grapeshot attempts) because of Teeg.

In the case where you have a fistfull of counters and can stop 3 things there's an argument for Meddling Mage over Gaddock Teeg because the mage puts you back in the driver's seat in terms of picking and choosing what you want to counter. Teeg still stops the wincons but you have no idea if they have non split-second removal (StP, ET, even EE) behind the Orim's Chant and now that you can actually counter a few things that becomes important. This results in a forced counter on Orim's Chant and you've lost a bit of control in the process.

Note that if they have split-second removal in either situation you are going to be back to countering Orim's Chant sooner rather than later. There's no difference at all in that situation in the absence of CounterTop because they are going to Wipe Away MM or GT at the end of your turn and then you're going to have the same situation during their turn either way, with a minor chance that they've blown an Orim's Chant earlier probing against Gaddock Teeg.

I really don't see a strong enough argument either way to say conclusively that Meddling Mage or Gaddock Teeg is superior against typical storm combo.

[emidln]

Split-second removal is going to function regardless of whether or not you have Meddling Mage or Gaddock Teeg in play. Wipe Away is going to put them back in your hand and then you have the same battle over Orim's Chant in either scenario

Congrats on missing the the clause that goes "and still doesn't address the major problem disruptive bears have".

[bigbear102]

As for FT, I have not ever actually played against the deck in a real live tournament setting. Sure, it has Split Second answers, but if no one is playing the deck them I'm not gonna worry about it. TES seems to be much more popular, and that means that I'm going to board with TES in mind, not FT.

Teeg stops them from comboing immediately. If they have BW into Grapeshot then they need a lot more storm to kill me, or a lot more mana and another tutor to keep going after they deal with Teeg.

AdN made MM much worse against the combo matchup, because now they have 3 separate engines to win with, 2 Tutors and AdN. GT makes them use one of those engines to free up the win, or jump through hoops to win via Grapeshot.

As a bonus, Gaddock Teeg stops lots of heavily played removal, something a deck playing GW creatures needs to worry about. Not that Teeg would be there to stop removal, but it is a nice bonus. Lots of decks play Wrath/Humility/Force/EE*. It's nice to not have to worry about those cards for at least a little while.

I personally run 1 Teeg MD in my Survival build as a main board out against Combo that also hurts every blue deck in the format (assuming FoW), Stax, Landstill, and random other things, and doesn't affect my deck at all. Ethersworn Canonist is in the board as it is a much more targeted card in that it does little except against Combo. I also have 3-4 Chants in the board most of the time.

The argument that MM can name FoW is also kind of silly, seeing as if you are playing MM, why not just play FoW yourself? Splashing blue for MM and nothing else would not be worth it most of the time.

Also, Teeg is not a card that you load up on in a SB, it is best used in decks that have a way of finding singletons, like the new breed of Intuition engines and Survival. I guess a Zoo deck could play 3-4 of them, as they have very little protection against 4cc sweepers and will have a big advantage in that Swords will normally go to the giant guy first, then you drop Teeg to stop any mass removal.

*EE also does not have to be set at 4 to be stopped, it has X in it's casting cost.

[emidln]

As for FT, I have not ever actually played against the deck in a real live tournament setting. Sure, it has Split Second answers, but if no one is playing the deck them I'm not gonna worry about it. TES seems to be much more popular, and that means that I'm going to board with TES in mind, not FT.

The current crop of Ad Nauseam decks are directly based on FT. They play the same board cards, the same maindeck answers and the same tutor package. Scanning deckcheck.net, storm combo playing Wipe Away and Mystical Tutor seem to have 9 recent top8s compared to 7 from TES. While people might not be playing ANT or FT in Syracuse, it appears that they are doing very well with it around the rest of the world.

[Nightmare]

The current crop of Ad Nauseam decks are directly based on FT. They play the same board cards, the same maindeck answers and the same tutor package. Scanning deckcheck.net, storm combo playing Wipe Away and Mystical Tutor seem to have 9 recent top8s compared to 7 from TES. While people might not be playing ANT or FT in Syracuse, it appears that they are doing very well with it around the rest of the world.

What does that have to do with him?

[Skeggi]

Gaddock Teeg completely kills my deck: Armageddon, Smokestack, Ajani Vengeant, Engineered Explosives, Chalice of the Void. He really hurts a Stax player.

But I don't fear him, because he's easy to hate. I have special sideboard cards against him, because it's pretty much the worst thing that can happen to me. But I don't throw my sideboard full of Teeg hate because he's simply not played enough. The few Teegs I encounter now, my current hate handles them just fine: if I notice a deck playing Green and White; I always anticipate Teeg and therefor sideboard against him. If the opponent doesn't have Teeg, the hate aren't dead cards and can usually still be used against other creatures.

[FoolofaTook]

Congrats on missing the the clause that goes "and still doesn't address the major problem disruptive bears have".

I didn't miss it, I was just reinforcing that if they have a split-second answer the odds are that the difference between Meddling Mage and Gaddock Teeg is non-existent.

It really comes down to whether or not you want to be able to lock out a single card and defend the rest, as Meddling Mage does, or whether you want to lock out the rest and defend the single card. I can see arguments both ways so I see both Mage and Teeg as viable options against storm combo.

There are other decks, like Belcher and Landstill, where I think Teeg is just head and tails above Mage, because there's no card that you can lock out in those decks that does the equivalent of locking out Orim's Chant in storm combo.

[Noman Peopled]

I didn't miss it, I was just reinforcing that if they have a split-second answer the odds are that the difference between Meddling Mage and Gaddock Teeg is non-existent.
That's assuming both are equally desirable to remove, though, which will seldom be the case.

[GreenOne]

Teeg is a 2-color cost, legendary bear against: Enchantress [...] and Threshold.


I don't wanna get into the discussion, but gaddock stops Moat and Replenish in Enchantress. Sure, it's 3 cards in the deck, but I hear they're some good.
It also does stop FoW in threshold, and, eventually, EE if they play it.


EE is arguably one of the most played removal spells in the format and FoW is probably the most played card in the format besides tarmogoyf, brainstorm and lands. This should be worth something.

[FoolofaTook]

That's assuming both are equally desirable to remove, though, which will seldom be the case.

Against storm combo of the TES, FT type they'll both be the main impediment to a win when they're on the board. Against Belcher Teeg would likely be more of an impediment, since he cuts off all their wincons whereas Mage cuts off either an enabler like Dark Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond or one of the wincons.

[blacklotus3636]

As a sideboard card in a zoo esque type deck with an aggressive role I can definately see teeg being good but its difficult to say if it would be the best kind of hate card for combo. I personally think a chalice for 1 or 0 is one of the cheapest, fastest and most versatile tools out there for almost any type of deck trying to fight combo. The secret to beating ad nauseam is chalice at 0 because most of the time they don't have mana leftover to play rituals post ad-nauseam and if they do it it means they will be extremely reliant on drawing dark rituals. It makes a fizzle much more likely so you either have to deal with chalice at 0 or put together enough resources to not fizzle post ad nauseam. Not to mention that drawing multiple chalices is a good thing that can completely lock combo out of a game by itself.

As for teeg vs. meddling mage:

teeg: shuts down more cards in specific decks like combo but does almost nothing against a deck like threshold or a deck with a similar curve meaning it is a more narrow card

meddling mage: shuts down any card you like in any deck but requires a fair bit of knowledge to use correctly because if you name incorrectly the card's ability could be almost useless especially in game 1 if you are unsure of what deck your opponent is playing or how it works. Even though meddling mage shuts down fewer cards if used correctly it can decimate combo or most any deck. That means the card is more versatile because of the flexibility it allows

Overall the debate of teeg vs. mage is stupid because chalice usually does the job faster,easier and more effectively than both these guys. Against combo teeg will shut down a maximum of 8 cards, meddling mage will shut down 4 cards per mage but chalice shuts down 12-16 cards on average with a chalice at 0 or 1. That means in most cases they have to deal with it before going off and when you have chalice at 0 and 1 almost half thier deck will be dead.
The mage vs. teeg debate is over and chalice won:P

[Forbiddian]

I don't wanna get into the discussion, but gaddock stops Moat and Replenish in Enchantress. Sure, it's 3 cards in the deck, but I hear they're some good.

Playing Enchantress, I would laugh at anybody playing Teeg who thought it did anything against me, even if I had two Replenish and Moat in my hand.

A GW deck is not nearly fast enough that hardcasting a Moat matters, I can just wait for the Solitaire lock and that is plan A against GWU. Losing Moat kinda sucks, but it's definitely a below average card in that MU.

Replenish is cool, but unless you're running GWUB with Pernicious Deed, it's really unnecessary. Replenish gets back the Enchantments that you hard countered. That's like 1-2 if you're lucky. Replenish is one of the worst cards against GWU (depending on how many Disenchants, Seal of Cleansing, etc.). It's 3W for an enchantment or two (that you don't draw off of unless it's a Ground Seal). For the same reason that Multani's Presence is awful, Replenish isn't great in MUs that just have countermagia.


@ Thresh
The presumption is that you have access to Meddling Mage and access to Teeg (i.e. you're playing UGW). Teeg stops your own Force of Wills as much as it stops the opponent's.

[Noman Peopled]

Against storm combo of the TES, FT type they'll both be the main impediment to a win when they're on the board. Against Belcher Teeg would likely be more of an impediment, since he cuts off all their wincons whereas Mage cuts off either an enabler like Dark Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond or one of the wincons.
Hm, I notice I exaggerated the "seldom" part but I stand by my post. You can't possibly name all possible outs TES has (I don't know what Doomsday stack FT uses so I'll say nothing about that) with Mage and it can be played around depending on your opponent's hand. By contrast, Teeg does prevent them from winning with anything other than Grapeshot (but does not defend itself and prevents you from FoWing).
My point was that in a given situation, if both are impediments, the one that forces your opponent to remove it rather than force him to remove it or play around it is probably better (I'm aware this does not take into account your own FoWs). Yes, I realize, those situations will not always decisively favor Mage or Teeg within a single matchup, or even game.

I wasn't really trying to counter any specific argument. Come to think of it, I may just be splitting hairs anyway. Sorry, old habits.

[FoolofaTook]

Hm, I notice I exaggerated the "seldom" part but I stand by my post. You can't possibly name all possible outs TES has (I don't know what Doomsday stack FT uses so I'll say nothing about that) with Mage and it can be played around depending on your opponent's hand. By contrast, Teeg does prevent them from winning with anything other than Grapeshot (but does not defend itself and prevents you from FoWing).
My point was that in a given situation, if both are impediments, the one that forces your opponent to remove it rather than force him to remove it or play around it is probably better (I'm aware this does not take into account your own FoWs). Yes, I realize, those situations will not always decisively favor Mage or Teeg within a single matchup, or even game.

I wasn't really trying to counter any specific argument. Come to think of it, I may just be splitting hairs anyway. Sorry, old habits.

I think we're all splitting hairs here. Both of the options are good at times and bad at times so it's hard to come down on one side or the other without a specific counter-example coming up to invalidate the point you just made.

The FoW thing is really important at times and not at all at others. As an example when Teeg is out there you can't FoW their StP or ET, however that means you have that FoW in hand when they try to go off after ditching Teeg. With a Meddling Mage on Orim's Chant you can and probably will Force the removal on Meddling Mage but then you have one less counter in hand for the actual battle when they try to go off. I can see arguments both ways.

[Pulp_Fiction]

This is how I look at it: Gaddock Teeg is infinitely more useful all around IE he stops EE, Tendrils, Wrath, Chalice etc. Teeg is decent at stopping combo but Ethersworn Canonist is better at stoping storm combo. Belcher could win through Canonist a LOT easier than they could win through Teeg but TES would have a harder time dealing with Canonist since they have to BW into an immediate answer.

Both cards have their good merits but overall I think Teeg is an exceptional card. At first I was a naysayer of the card but slowly it has begun to grow on me the uses that this card has!