[Brainstorming] Black Stax

[Phantom]

I'm not the one to make this deck, but I haven't seen it elsewhere and it seems to me there has to be a viable Black Stax deck with all the tools available. Here are my thoughts/questions:

1) Bitterblossom seems like a gift for this archetype. Comes down early, allows the deck to play aggro or control (chumping for a life a turn), and has synergy with Nether Spirit, Contamination, Stax/Braids (never killing yourself with Blossom is a nice bonus), Barter in Blood, and even equipment.

2) The Abyss seems like it could be better than Damnation or spot removal in these creature light days. It might be a sideboard card though as so many decks run Factories, Dreadnoughts, and Nimble Mongeese.

3) Contamination is a way to lock out many opponents, and has synergy with both Bitterblossom and Nether Spirit. It's not quite as bad without creatures here as it can lock out an opponent for a turn while Stax is up, then serve as a sac outlet. I'm torn on its inclusion.

4) Comboing out with Leyline of the Void plus Helm of Obedience seems like a genuine possibility. Leyline mainboard seems like an increasingly promising option, as it will slow many decks clocks, and keep other decks from abusing Crucible against you. Neither piece is dead by itself, but neither is stellar either. I honestly don't know if they belong, in what numbers, and how many enablers (like Serum Powder and tutors) to run.

5) Seeing as Tezzeret is all the rage in Stax builds these days, Lilana Vess deserves a nod. Discard is nice in Stax, the tutor function even better, and the win con is just butter. Don't know about the CC, protecting her, or if she is just a win more.

6) I have no idea where to go on the removal package. What number of Damnation, The Abyss, Spot Removal (and which type) to run eludes me as every choice alters the other cards in the deck in a way I'm not sure is positive. Example: Should I run 4 Abyss and cut myself off from Braids and Graveborn Muse? Should I run them anyway? Is the Abyss the best choice with Dreadnought and storm combo on the rise? Do the new combo decks cast EtW often?

7) Similarly the creature package is unclear to me. Do I go with just Blossom and maybe Spirit in a heavy control package, or do I throw in Braids, Graveborn Muse, Epocrasite, and maybe Dusk Urchins and some Jitte?

Anyway, I've been playing around with builds on MWS and winning a decent amount but the deck feels disjointed. Any help (especially from those with more experience in this archetype) be it build directions, other cards to include, or simply advice, would be appreciated.

[Ape Boy]

What about Nether Void? Say turn 1 blossom, turn 2 Nether Void? Good with Factory too. I'd add more but it's work time. I'll try and come up with a list while I'm there.

[kilukru]

This deck look like a list of card I wish to break!!

I've been on contamination back a lot lately, i will try a couple build, even if it will probably not becaume a great deck it deserve to be built and played!

[Mordel]

Why are people so stoked on a combo that allows you to cast a four mana artifact and mill an opponent for X? It seems very shitty when compared to something that wins you the game instantly, like say grindstone/savant. If you are playing a black stax deck, there is no reason not to run nether spirit as your only creature and some factories and go with that, rather than some janky mill combo.

[Masque]

Why are people so stoked on a combo that allows you to cast a four mana artifact and mill an opponent for X? It seems very shitty when compared to something that wins you the game instantly, like say grindstone/savant. If you are playing a black stax deck, there is no reason not to run nether spirit as your only creature and some factories and go with that, rather than some janky mill combo.
I really wouldn't define milling their entire library out as 'janky'. Though I suppose, following that reasoning, Painter/Grindstone is janky too. Anyway, on to Black Stax. I've always thought the deck has had potential, because Braids works a full turn before Smokestack does something. I think she should be in there, for sure.

[Richard]

Some ideas:

Chains of Mephistopheles
Maybe: Curse of the Cabal

Grim Tutor Toolbox with:
Averice Totem
Death Cloud
Ill Gotten Gains (4 Leyline of the Void MB)
Maybe: Consume Spirit (Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth)
Maybe: Engineered Plague
Maybe: Pithing Needle

I don't like the Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience combo, but you could put Helm of Obedience in the toolbox.

[Mordel]

Masque: Multiple activations for helm needed much?

What? six cards per turn or so? That is fucking terrible. Why do some people like this combo so much?

If you want to make a stax deck that basically "fixes" the issues that white stax faces, you are going to want to follow a similar approach, but use better cards. Chains is a card that I think has potential in the sideboard, but as a whole I think that you want to first recreate white stax as closely as possible with black and then figure out the rest with testing. Consume spirit, IGG and tutor are not needed. White has a far more efficient tutor to use and it doesn't use it. What does that say?

You need a starting point that looks like this:

2xnether spirit and/or tombstalker

4xsmokestack
4xtrinisphere
4xchalice of the void
4xcrucible of worlds
4xmox diamond

4xcity of traitors
4xancient tomb
2xmishra's factory
3xtabernacle

Now you run into a problem: you have an awkward card that causes you to lose life, which you can't afford to lose a lot of the time when playing the stax strategy and it is also expensive as fuck(deathcloud), you are also missing ghostly prison and magus (which frees up land that don't tap to produce mana, which is extremely detrimental). The ghostly prison issue can be solved easily enough by throwing a few copies of damnation or massacre in, but that is a temporary fix for a losing situation. White stax mitigates aggression extremely well and boasts numerous sideboard answers and it's weakness is a loan face-smasher and combo...what does black bring to the table that covers these bases and doesn't open it up to others?

i see no ghostly prison and magus/armageddon as a tremendous hurdle that keeps an actual stax deck from working. The closest you will get is demon stompy in my opinion because black has awesome cards for exploiting having a cheap fatty down, but in the realm of hiding behind an enchantment or creature from horde of goblins, black doesn't have a prayer like white does. When you can solve the win a goblin matchup issue, I think you will have yourself a deck for sure though. I am not nearly clever enough to have one other than splash white, which creates a tremendous problem that concerns mana base stability and an increased vulnerability to non-basic hate.

[Maveric78f]

I can't see the global synergy. Life loss from Bitterblossom with the slow clock of stax. All those black creatures you're talking about with The Abyss. Smokestack is surely the solution to this, but braids with its inability to deal with enchantments won't help you to get rid of the Bitterblossom or The Abyss that is poisoning you after having dealt with the board. In this case, you should run 4 smokestacks. I try to throw a naive list together.

Mana base : 29
4 Mox Diamond
3 cities
4 ancient tomb
4 mishras
4 wasteland
7 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Stax elements : 15
4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere
4 Stax
3 Crucible

Blackness : 16
4 Bitterblossom
4 Neither Spirit
4 The Abyss
4 Contamination

It looks less synergetic that the U-build but it's maybe more powerfull and faster.

[Mordel]

Goblins would rape that deck. Seriously.

I know the list is off the cuff, but goblins is one of the decks that should be used as a chopping block and I see goblins being able to keep up with one creature or so a turn long enough to smash face. You aslo need a way to deal with getting a too many spirits in the graveyard. Run less and/or run some stalkers.

Blossom is an interesting card hat sort of acts like a forcefield in a way. Might need some testing...a way to mitigate life loss would be awesome.

[Opterown]

Dude the Combo doesn't mill 6 per turn, it mills the entire library because Leyline keeps it goin'

[Mordel]

Yeah, I read the card again and noticed that now when I read your comment. My bad. I still think it is a poor fit in a stax deck though.

Even if you consider the leylines to be a valid addition on their own, you still will require them to win with a helm, which contributes next to nothing on its own, whereas you could just stick with nether spirits, factories and whatever else and move onwards with trying to make the rest of the deck capable of winning matches against strategies that dump creatures on you.

[Infinitium]

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
9 [TSP] Swamp (4)

// Creatures
2 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
3 [US] Smokestack
3 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [LG] The Abyss
2 [US] Contamination
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [PLC] Damnation
3 [MM] Unmask

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Smokestack
SB: 1 [US] Contamination
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague

I've run this with some success in the past. The problem as I see it is that Black Stax run a shitload of incredibly narrow cards that individually beat the shit out of certain archetypes and are next to useless versus other. Basically, it has all the consistency problems of Armaggeddon Stax and then some (but more Stax enablers to make up for it somewhat).

This is the most recent build I've used, but if I were to do it again it'd probably move Contamination to the side (as it's just too narrow) and use all 4 Stax MD (as it's always been the MVP of the deck - it essentially has more than twice the amount of enablers as most other Stax builds and is often needed to shut BB off).

Note that Trinisphere is bad in Black Stax as it lacks Armaggeddon and it just doesn't stop the opponents bombs whatsoever. Unmask serves a similar function in delaying combo, picking off hate and forcing stuff through, and generally does it better and for free. Leyline is also pretty good MD; at the very least multiples can Pitch to Unmask and it splash damages the entire format (more or less), especially as the deck can hardcast it early.

[GenioDeArena]

Ive never been a real fan of nether spirit in any deck, it just means that you cant play any other creature. Thats sad.

4_Abyssal gatekeeper
1_Volrath stronghold
Gleancrawler?
Plague spitter/crypt rats/thrashing wumpus

That should keep goblins on their tracks

[Mordel]

Spirit is essentially invincible, can be sacced to whatever over and over and fits nicely into a deck that doesn't need any other creatures...other than a tomb stalker.

Those cards you suggest take up too many spots. Abyssal gatekeeper? C'mon!

The deck doesn't need more one time removal cards, it needs something like ghostly prison/propaganda. To try to solve this problem, you could try koskun falls, but you need to have a creature out all the time for it and it has double black in its cost. There is also ensnaring bridge, but you need to figure out how to keep your hand low.

[johanessen]

Nobody knows about Koskun Falls?

I know is badish... but

[Mordel]

. To try to solve this problem, you could try koskun falls, but you need to have a creature out all the time for it and it has double black in its cost. There is also ensnaring bridge, but you need to figure out how to keep your hand low.

Nothing like quoting something I typed in my last reply, which was right before yours...

[Forbiddian]

Koskun Falls is teh badz.

It's also an Enchant World =/= good synergy with The Abyss. And even if they changed the rules, The Abyss kills their critters and Koskun Falls doesn't punish them at all if they only have 1 or 2 creatures.

[Mordel]

Ensnaring bridge seems like a far better option that could actually make the abyss an unneeded card. Is dumping your hand really that hard in a deck that is all permanents and runs the tomb mana base? I don't think so.

Edit: I was thinking about it and a null broach or two might actually be effective if people take the ensnaring bridge route because without 'geddon/3sphere, you will need a way to keep your opponents tight on plays.

two copies of null broach and three nether voids could fulfill the whole "lock them out of spells" part of the stax strategy nicely...between that and some bridges, you could have some game if testing shows things to work out in a consistent fashion.

[Zork]

Masque: Multiple activations for helm needed much?

What? six cards per turn or so? That is fucking terrible. Why do some people like this combo so much?

Because of the replacement effect provided by Leyline of the Void, no cards will ever be put into the graveyard. This allows you to mill them entirely by using one activation for one.

Honestly, though, it seems out of place here.

[dahcmai]

Don't forget about using Demigod with Nether Void. He casts right through it. though It would take some testing since he's not so hot with Ancient Tombs.

[Mordel]

I did a bit of testing with a list that ran nether void and bridge. Nether void was less than impressive, so I ended up making a big neg stompy deck, which worked a lot better, but then I went back to the drawing board with the black stax.

This is obviously pretty premliminary, but for the most part nether void would just slow the game down for both parties when it cost cast. I wasn't digging that at all. A problem I face with bridges is not being able to swing with anything bigger than a 1/1. I remedied this by slipping some moths in.
With no nether void, I decided contamination is worth some spots for sure, so I ended up running them. Before emberassing myself further in games, I decided to fish the list a few times and decided that bitter blossom is worth a try. They work decent for keeping smokestack and contamination happy, but I am really not enjoying the life loss. It cost me a few games too many, but it also won me a few. I am sort of on the fence about them as a result because even with white stax, I end up with a low life total when I win, so bitter blossom concerns me.

Anyway, here is the list that I have right now:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
10 [7E] Swamp (3)
4 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
2 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
2 [MM] Snuff Out
3 [LG] The Abyss
2 [US] Contamination
3 [PLC] Damnation
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [EX] Null Brooch
4 [US] Smokestack
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Contamination
SB: 1 [PLC] Damnation
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [OD] Haunting Echoes

Far from perfect and don't ask about the sideboard. I was mostly curious if such a deck could work. As you can see, I eventually cut the blossoms entirely and just use a nexus in conjunction with a crucible or a spirit for a contamination, which is generally gg anyway unless someone is rocking reverent silence or something.

I had an extremely lame match against ugw thresh that the abyss's targetting clause was very annoying. Call to the grave puts a lot of strain on you if you want to keep it out and it is more expensive, but in my situation against 'geese, it would have been nice.

Right now, I could take or leave the deck/idea, but I'll probably keep playing around with it.

[Infinitium]

Why Blinkmoth Nexus? It's not like you're going to swing over anything but an empty board, you don't use Equipment and Mishra's Factory kills Mongeese on the block all day long (which is pretty important as it means ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh's only out to The Abyss becomes burn or Mystic Enforcerer).

[Mordel]

Because in lots of matches I need to keep my hand below two...blinkmoth gets around that. Do I seriously have to explain that again? Did you read anything besides the list?

[H]

Salvage Titan is a possible win condition under The Abyss. He could also make your extra Smokestacks, Trinisphere's and Ensnaring Bridges useful later in the game. Plus, even if he gets Griped, he can be back.

[undone]

Seems like black stax wants mind shatter, turn 3-4 you can consitentaly cast it for 3-4.

Tombstalker and or salvage titan as win cons seems good as well.

[Mordel]

Bridge nerfs titan and tombstalker. That is a big problem. You cannot draw cards and then drop them and if you have gone so far in an aggro match that you can afford to sac a bridge off, you are going to be winning even if you were swinging with a nettling imp...mind shatter might have a place; I'm not sure on that one because I haven't played aroun with the deck enough, but I do know that I would rather focus on beating aggro than making my opponent discard their hand when there are already threats on the table.

If I was going to try putting discard in the deck, I would probably go with unmask, duress or thoughtseize.

The biggest problem right now as I see it is why am I going to play this deck over geddon or even suntower...why??? I don't even know why I am so fascinated with trying to make it work lol.

[idraleo]

Time ago i posted this decklist in the classic Demon Stompy thread, trying to focus the attention of players on the good lock that Contamination and Bitterblossom enable. The deck also featured the underrated Magus of the Abyss, that gives a decente beater body and a good lock with Blossom too. The deck was only a shot, i' ve tested it for some games and it was sometimes good, sometimes not. Maybe now it could be revisited in other ways, such as enveloping Stalker and/or Nether. Btw, this was the decklist:

// Lands
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [10E] Graveborn Muse
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
2 [LRW] Liliana Vess
3 [FUT] Magus of the Abyss
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp

// Spells
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [US] Contamination
3 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [MM] Unmask

[Mordel]

That is pretty similar to the deck I ended up with except it swings straight for the dome with negs, priest of gix and stuff. Not on topic reall, but for anyone that is curious:

// Lands
11 [7E] Swamp (3)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [JGC] Phyrexian Negator
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [SHM] Dusk Urchins
2 [LE] Bane of the Living
4 [US] Priest of Gix

// Spells
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [US] Contamination
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
3 [LG] Nether Void
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

It was kind of neat against my buddy. Actually, it completely destroyed him...then again he was playing wombat, so winning was rediculously easy with the draws I pulled.

I haven't got any further ideas for black stax though. A white or blue splash a la sun tower might work though.

[Richard]

If you want a creature that can attack through an ensnaring bridge, maybe Guiltfeeder is the one.
The downside is Leyline of the Void...

[Mordel]

Good call on guilt feeder. The only problem with him is his dying could screw with spirit recursion. I think moths are pretty much the best bet...which is okay really because one to three damage each turn, regardless of a mongoose, dreadnaught or goyf sitting in front of a bridge seems decent.

I think I am just going to test the deck a bunch and see what can be tightened up at this point and see if some sweet tech pops out at me because it seems like random games and fishing are getting me about as far as they can. I'm going to have to get a gauntlet prepped.

I am thinking: -Rb/Rw goblins
-ugw threshold
-ugb threshold
-eva green
-4c landstill
-Quinn
-Epic painter
-funk brew
-geddon stax (this will be such a brutal series as far as time consumption goes)
-burn
-Faerie stompy

Will be an ideal and extremely time-consuming gauntlet to test out, especially since I am going to test more stuff that I remember randomly.

[Infinitium]

Because in lots of matches I need to keep my hand below two...blinkmoth gets around that. Do I seriously have to explain that again? Did you read anything besides the list?

No it doesn't and yes I did. The implication that a Stax deck needs a 20 turn clock that swings over blockers in order to win is fucking ridiculus, especially as the above statement is only ever valid if the opponent has 1/x creatures out and none of them have more than 1 toughness and Flying and you've played out Bridge and whatever was in your hand but yet to see Damnation/Smokestack in order to clear their board.

Also why is everyone posting Stompy lists and alternate win conditions all of a sudden? It's Stax; the aim is to gain control of the board and lock the opponent out of the game. Whatever one uses to win after that is irrelevant; Spirits and Factories are plenty.

[Nihil Credo]

Sword of Light and Shadow should probably be tested; in addition to providing lifegain, it makes the equipped creature Abyss-proof.

[Dark_Cynic87]

do a search of the site for "blax". I heavily invested time in it. It had good matchups over a lot of stuff, and ran Leylines in the maindeck, which would now allow for a combo kill (Helm of Obedience...One of the helms, anyway).

That may help.

One other thing is that the point of stax isn't a quick win. most of the time you will win with a Mishra's Factory or a Nether Spirit. However, you mostly don't have to win quick because when you get the lock on and they have no lands or anything, with no way to come back and you have some win condition on the board, they will normally concede. It's a lot like how Landstill wins with inevitability. You do to.

Pce,

--DC

[Mordel]

Infinitium: Actually, a twenty turn clock isn't accurate because you can pump the moth once it has been declared as an attacker and the existence of fetches and numerous other painful cards further ensure that you won't be swinging twenty times. It is pretty likely that I would pull a damnation over the course of the game, but with a bridge that ranges between zero and one, it doesn't matter if one shows up and moths fly through and connect for one to three damage a swing. Resistance to this one card as opposed to more useful suggestions in regards to more pertinent problems with the deck suggest that you have nothing really useful to say.

DC: Thanks man, I'll check it out. I actually thought I should look under "Bl4ks" and then I thought: "nahhhh". Intuition was right =)

Edit:I checked the site and I couldn't really find anything. Four threads showed up under "blax" and one was this one. Got a link or something? Search isn't helping me today.

[Mordenkaynen]

I think Epochrasite has to be considered. He is a good tempo card, synergise with spirit, is a chump-blocker and sometimes a finisher. What do you think?

[Mordel]

While I like the card Epochrasite a lot, I don't think he would work well in here because space is at a premium in my list and when he comes back with counters, he will not be able to swing through a bridge.

If I (or anyone really) can find a better replacement for propaganda/ghostly prison than bridge, I'd feel quite inclined to test epochrasites, but right now I feel that every card needs to be able to fulfill its purpose for the entire game's duration. While the game will go into the long more often than not, which is ideal for an epochrasite and it does have great synergy with spirit, I don't feel that it would be worth paying two to have a 1/1 with no evasion to swing through a bridge that can be neutralized by being blocked.

I am considering bitterblossom as a really strong finisher/piece of the engine, but multiples would be brutal and I am kind of averse to the idea of losing more life in a deck that doesn't need more help in that department. Something that gained me life would be great, but black doesn't have anything like peace of mind.

This deck almost has me thinking about trying to redo my old iron phoenix/peace of crap deck.

[Sims]

Since you guys are thinking of perhaps playing the Contamination/Spirit, and sitting behind Bridge, wouldn't it be better to try and find a win condition that you don't necessarily have to attack with? I know that stax is typically a permanent based deck that relies on it's lock to either make the opponent scoop or to slowly grind them down, but I'm thinking that using something like cursed scroll ( we are talking keeping your hand empty or low for bridge) or some other non-swinging wincon might be better suited.

If it wasn't for the fact that it'd fuck up your Contamination lock, barring a mishra/crucible combo, I'd say run Oona and mill the opponent down.

[rufus]

How about doing it in black/red -- something along these lines. (This is completely untested.)

Squee Goblin Nabob
Goblin Assault
Magus of the Moon
Imperial Recruiter
Radkos Guildmage
Braids Cabal Minion

Nether Void
Smokestack
Trinisphere
Chalice of the Void
Chrome Mox

Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Badlands
Blood Crypt

I expect that the BB in Braid's casting cost could be problematic.

[Mordel]

Since you guys are thinking of perhaps playing the Contamination/Spirit, and sitting behind Bridge, wouldn't it be better to try and find a win condition that you don't necessarily have to attack with? I know that stax is typically a permanent based deck that relies on it's lock to either make the opponent scoop or to slowly grind them down, but I'm thinking that using something like cursed scroll ( we are talking keeping your hand empty or low for bridge) or some other non-swinging wincon might be better suited.

If it wasn't for the fact that it'd fuck up your Contamination lock, barring a mishra/crucible combo, I'd say run Oona and mill the opponent down.

I actually considered scroll, but the issue for me was the activation and that I can't get it back with crucible. Another card I thought about was ebony owl nestuke. I think I might actually test ebony owl when I get the chance. Where I am at right now, I don't really have lots of playtesting time, so I am really keen on brainstorming for this deck, but I am not able to test as much as I would like to.

[Finn]

I don't think you will like Null Brooch. I have played with and against it, and it is way too slow. But you gotta like Ensnaring Bridge with Bitterblossom. I bet that if you tested it right, you really could have a winner there. Legacy has a lot of really big dudes, and very few little ones, so you might not have to work hard at losing your hand in most games.

But Phantom, are you allowed to make control decks without Moat? Isn't that against rule 27.3a?

[idraleo]

Ensnaring + BLossom is great because it enabLe you token to attack, and Keeps every creature away from you fi you get with no cards in hand...

[FoolofaTook]

Even if you consider the leylines to be a valid addition on their own, you still will require them to win with a helm, which contributes next to nothing on its own.

Well, technically the Helm does do two things other than mill out the opponent:

1. If they happen to flip a creature in the X you mill you get it in play.

2. Nobody is playing Helm yet so we don't know for sure but I think it might mess with Counterbalance some. Milling for 3+ would remove CounterTop's ability to stack the top of the deck, and Helm can be used as an instant.

Obviously neither of those things is remotely close to game-breaking or even particularly strong, however they will inevitably happen for decks that play the Leyline/Helm combo at some points, randomly if for no other reason.

[rufus]

1. If they happen to flip a creature in the X you mill you get it in play.

Congratulations, you just spent 4+X to put a creature into play. Helm of awakening -> creature is generally a weak play. Against something that actually plays fatties like Dragonstorm, or Sneak Attack combo, it might be OK, but neither of those are big in legacy.

[FoolofaTook]

Congratulations, you just spent 4+X to put a creature into play. Helm of awakening -> creature is generally a weak play. Against something that actually plays fatties like Dragonstorm, or Sneak Attack combo, it might be OK, but neither of those are big in legacy.

I actually was positing the situation where you had Helm in play and for whatever reason couldn't run the combo, which would be the only reason to have Helm in the deck in the first place.

I mill you for 2 or 3, oops I just took your Goyf (and prevented you from top-decking it and dropping it on me in the process) and now I'm going to try to kill you with it is a pretty decent boobie prize even if it's not the intended effect.

Helm of Obedience is just not playable as anything other than part of the Leyline/Helm combo at the moment and probably just marginally playable in that situation. That doesn't change the fact that there are some fairly humorous and effective accidental plays associated with it. Just not plays you'd ever be trying to promote on their own.

[Mordel]

@Guys debating particulars about helm:

Yes, it can be marginally useful, but it doesn't really fit the stax scheme too well in my opinion. For the sake of people that aren't necessarily contributing to the discussion of the budding archetype yet, we might want to keep abstract debates about the virtues of an individual card on the sidelines. If it is related to the deck then obviously it is important, but I don't see helm as a card I would consider running in the near or distant future because supporting helm and leyline takes up too many slots in a stax deck for my taste. I like leyline, but I would not run it main. I am not saying that the chaffness of the combo being worked into the deck is written in stone or anything, I would just rather go with working out the issues like making the deck overall and worrying about trying to get the deck running at a similar level to white stax.

@Finn: I was looking at another thread and I thought you were someone else because you changed your avy, lol. Nul broach is going to get cut once I actually draw one in a test match. Maybe I'll up their count just to see how mediocre they are or something. I originally thought that tossing a pair in might be nice for stopping the high cc stuff that gets by chalice and also serving as a way to dump my hand.

Bitterblossom seems completely awesome, so I guess I'll have to just cuk it up and do a gauntlet and see what happens with the life loss from them. The reward from one is obviously great though. The only other thing I am not really keen on with them is that I set my chalices to two a lot, so I am not sure what repercussions this might have BB.

Does anyone have a link for the Blax thread that DC mentioned? I tried googling it and searching the forum and nothing really came up.