[Deck] The Rock [Archive] - Page 3

Arne

03-26-2010, 07:26 AM

I'm not sure about you guys but the ANT players in my area (US) have been running closer to Saito's list from GP Madrid (2/2 split for AD and Tendrills). So, Hide//Seek is not an option.

I'm testing Child of Korlis to help against it, they have to either answer it or storm for almost twice my life total. A second Child usually means that I don't have to care about them at all. It won't beat me getting milled but it's helpful in other matches too (mainly Burn and Dredge). On that subject, How're they getting a 14+ storm count? are they actually able to Survive an Ad that long (Ill-Gotten Gains?)? Or, are they doing it for most of it and hoping that you won't hit them for 5 before you run out of cards?

As always, Diversified hate is always the best. If your opponent thinks that you have one and you have the other in hand they can misplay based on that thought. Perfect example: Re-animator player got blown out by Faerie Macabre and sided out bounce. Game 3, Leyline = auto-loss.

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@Arne - I like your list. I do think you should look into creating a stronger "toolbox" for your knight's search ability a little more though. he's really good at what he does and your manabase is stable enough to support it (outside of my toolbox selection, you're running more duals than I am). How're you liking the Elspeth? I cut them from my list. It was a good gimmick but most of the time it was a win more card. I have almost fallen in love with a single Primal Command and Baneslayer Angel in her place. I've definitely used all of the modes as well.

Also, Where is the graveyard hate? I understand that you were looking for a stronger Aggro stopper but graveyard based decks do come up in your meta, right? It seems like your list would just fold to a Dredge, Aggro-Loam, or ##-Lands Deck. Does a single Bog actually cut it? Cause Teeg isn't good vs 2 of that 3.

You're absolutely right about the GY hate... But I built my deck after doing a meta analysis and figured I didn't need real GYhate. We have a group of about 20 players who show up each time and I kinda know what and how they play. I do have to say that a single bog did help me in a game where I really needed it.

I'm still looking for a volrath's stronghold but they seem hard to get by. Also I'd like a one-off Nantuko monastery in my list. It's a good beater when you need it.

On Elspeth, Knight-Errant; I really really like her. She's like Jitte, when she sticks, she wins... Opponents usually tend to try and get rid of her and don't care if they need 2 or 3 cards to do it. that's pure CA. Other than that, she has cool abilities to help win against aggrocontrol and even aggro decks...

I'm also thinking off adding 2 recurring nightmare, they are nuts with kitchen finks and witness... also, those creatures scream of being used with cabal therapy.

I played a guy the last time who played a list almost similar to mine. He played profane command... that card is CA as well, especially when you can get rid of an opposing creature and return your own eternal witness!

damionblackgear

03-27-2010, 12:14 PM

How often are you getting to threshold? Your list is mostly permanents. Without Threshold Monastery isn't as good as he would seem. I run a Nomad Stadium because if I'm popping it I'm in tough shape and fighting back. The stronghold could be something nice to have.

What are you having issues with? I was having issues with a single creature slipping past *flying* so I added a single Kor Haven. It's definitely earned it's spot in the deck since adding it (although it took the stronghold slot). Your list looks like it could support either/both (4 colorless slots has been fine for me, and one of mine doesn't produce a mana)

What would you cut for Nightmare? The biggest issue is that lists always feel tight. So you always feel like every card has earned it's place.

OMG2L84U

03-28-2010, 05:56 AM

@MrShine

Whats your decklist right now with the KotR?
i'm new to rock and ive read the 26 pages so long and im happy with wut i see...but i need to know if disrupt is better than destruction overall...i like Hymn to Tourach and i wanna try them wit deeds and KotR but im kinda lost haha xD

pingveno

03-29-2010, 06:11 AM

I have recently put together this pile, and wouldn't you know won the small local tournament.

23 Lands:
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Bajuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou

13 Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Eternal Witness

24 Other Spells
2 Elspeth
2 Garruk
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach

Sideboard:
4 Ravenous Trap
1 Bajuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Runed Halo

Quick Aside:
Most cards are pretty much staples of the archetype, however I do not own a 4th KotR, or Tarmogoyf.

Report: (Apologies to those I played whom I don't remember your names and I wasn't planning to write a report so I didn't write them down)
Round 1: Jim with Elves!
Game 1: I lead with Birds. He goes Llanowar elves. I vindicate his land. He plays another and plays Priest. I swords the priest. I plays a fyndhorn. I draw a deed and let him over extend. Deed his board, drop a KotR and win.
Sideboard: Nothing
Game 2: This time I am the aggressor. Birds-KotR-Hiearch-Garruk-Overrun. I Swords a priest so he pretty much rolls over.
2-0 Game (1-0 Tourney)
Round 2: Jorge with Zoo
Game 1: He brings the quick beats with Nacatl-Grim Lavamancer/Kird Ape-Tarmogoyf. I deed and then play a KotR. It is pathed. So I play my other one and ride it to victory after I draw another deed. Horizon Canopy showed its stuff here with KotR. Their synergy is quite good.
Sideboard: -4 Thoughtsieze +4 Kitchen Finks
Game 2: He mulls to five. I lead with Birds-Finks-Hierarch-Garruk+Finks. Hurray!
2-0 (2-0 Tourney)
Round 3: Dunno who with NO Bant (I should have lost this round)
Game 1: We trade creatures with removal spells/countermagic for a while. I deed the board away at some point and we go to topdeck mode. I draw elspeth and win with her. But he had a Hierarch out with NO in hand, but didn't play NO because he thought I would deed in response. He realizes his mistake while sideboarding.
Sideboard: I have no idea what I took out but I know I put in 3 Runed Halos. That is my answer to Prog but I am very unhappy with it.
Game 2: This is where my memory gets fuzzy. I lose to an eventual goyf, but I remember that I misplayed badly. He had 2 cards in hand, so did I: Hymn and Elspeth and like an idiot I play Elspeth first. Force of Will... Duh. It was an empty board so I probably win that game if I play hymn first.
Game 3: Again fuzzy memory. What is clear though is I was going to lose that game and needed a topdeck deed to have a chance. At 3 life I draw the deed and sweep his board of 1 hierarch, 1 RWM, and 1 Goyf. Shortly after my beats start arriving and I win.
2-1 (3-0) He punted game 1, but I punted game 2. Even steven.
Round 4: Dunno who with dredge
This was over fast, and I feel like I got pretty lucky.
Game 1: I win the roll and go birds. He plays Gemstone and Pimp. I play KotR. He discards dredgers and dredges alot but doesn't hit much. His board is Pimp, 2 Jellyfish guys and a gemstone. I don't attack with KotR so I can fetch a Bajuka Bog which I do in response to his dread return for an Iona. I follow that with a vindicate on his land and attack for game.
Sideboard: -4 Hymn to Tourach -1 Thoughtsieze +4 Ravenous Trap +1 Bajuka Bog
Game 2: He dredges alot, I have all my hate. I mean all of it. Wipe his graveyard and lay some beats with Loxodon Hierarch + Garruk. I win with Ravenous Traps in hand, after playing both bogs.
2-0 (4-0, winner of 12 worldwake packs, hurray!)

Thoughts:
Knight of the Reliquary is absolutely awesome. I would not even think about playing without that card. Goyf would be nice, but what are ya gonna do? I really like my list but I was wondering if anyone had an idea for a better answer to Prog? Runed Halo seems underwhelming and deeding it away is the worst. Speaking of deed, what are everyone's thoughts on Sakura Tribe Elder instead of Birds? Deeding away birds is also no fuego, and I have regretted it a few times; however second turn KotR/Vindicate is pretty sweet. Anyways, love the deck, wondering what suggestions/feedback people who have played it longer have. Thanks

Edit: To be clear, I would play goyf in addition to KotR. Not one or the other.

OMG2L84U

03-30-2010, 02:02 AM

hmm... if u had a 4th KotR and 4 goyf what would u change? ^^

-2 garruk? and -3 Elephant??

and wut about Bob and SdT? it won meh so many games but im still not sure tho...

Arne

03-30-2010, 06:25 AM

hmm... if u had a 4th KotR and 4 goyf what would u change? ^^

-2 garruk? and -3 Elephant??

and wut about Bob and SdT? it won meh so many games but im still not sure tho...

SDT gives this deck an or even thé edge! Even an allout Aggro deck like zoo plays sylvan library to not have to use mana each turn (but basically it does the same)... It helps you find answers and speed your deck up... Bob is a nobrainer... if it sticks -> CA! if it doens't -> one less removal for your big guys!

OMG2L84U

03-30-2010, 02:30 PM

[QUOTE=Arne;442696 Bob is a nobrainer... if it sticks -> CA! if it doens't -> one less removal for your big guys![/QUOTE]

that's exatly why i like to use him ^^. KIt can wins you game by itself but reuire 7 slot in the deck...
4x Bob
3x SdT

that why im unsure bout him... but still...^^

zalachan

03-31-2010, 06:38 PM

I wouldnt consider Top and Bob a package.. they are very strong independent cards, and only work better in conjunction. I would play each of them on its own, too.
I mean, top is like the best card, look at all the shuffles- active knight with top is so hot (spin top, sac land for fetch, spin top, fetch, spin top), and thats only something.
Bob is good, i love Bob decks, its just that if you stick 4 Bobs in that deck, with kinda high curve and all, you will sometimes reveal a walker against zoo and just die even if you were suposed to crush them.
What about Regrowth/Night's Whisper package instead of Witness/Confidant? Ive seen some deck play those and i think its nice- it curves better into Garruk. But thats a setup for more controllish approach, like Garruk/Deed/Damnation etc. Witness seems to be kinda subpar for me those days.. idk if Regrowth is a substitute for that, but im willing to try it.

Arne

04-01-2010, 06:05 AM

witness has been really good to me... I'd never even consider to cut her from my lists. She's a 2 for1 in contrary to regrowth.

btw, you're absolutely right about Bob and Top

Arsenal

04-06-2010, 09:07 PM

So my friend and I are going to a tournament in June. I've recently acquired playsets of everything for an aggro build of The Rock. Here's what I'm sleeving up for our testing gauntlet:

4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:

4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Krosan Grip
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt

Our gauntlet includes Goblins, Landstill, Tempo Thresh, Dragon Stompy, AnT, MUC, Dream Halls, and ScepterChant. On paper, I think I'll be a bit too slow versus fast aggro decks, so maybe I'll cut a Pulse/Vindicate and add 2 Path to Exile, but I'm going to test out my written list and see what needs to be tweaked. Btw, I do not own any Savannah or Knight of the Reliquary, so... yeah.

MrShine

04-06-2010, 10:02 PM

There is a distinct lack of progenitus in the list... Seriously, play it, it will win you games! I agree that 2 path should go in over Vindcate/pulse. Also, if you are expecting any aggro at all I highly recommend playing a Sword of Fire and ice maindeck w/ the Stoneforge... It rapes goblins and merfolk, and gives good range against zoo and has value in non-red or blue aggro matchups too.

I'm interested in how the nighthawks work out for you, as well as the lack of discard. That being said, if you do decide to run NO/Prog (which I HIGHLY recommend) than you'll want to have 4 copies of Thoughtseize/duress floating around either your mainboard or side.

I know I haven't tested your build, but I would strongly recommend these changes:

-2 Doran
-1 Nighthawk
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Vindicate

+2 Path
+3 Natural Order
+1 Progenitus

Also, I have a couple friends who have been playing Bob along side NO/Prog and have yet to have any real problems... Drawing into No hurts, but then you'll probably win anyway...

Oh, and given the tight colour requirements, I feel like Noble Hierarch might be inferior to Birds in this case due to lack of black production (for doran, nighthawk, pulse, vindicate)

Anyway, I am interested to hear how your testing goes. Good Luck!

MrShine

damionblackgear

04-07-2010, 02:49 AM

Arsenal - You have 12 spot removal spells and 4 Nighthawks. You shouldn't have an issue with Aggro. I think that if you're going to cut in fear of that you should just look at playing Finks over nighthawk.

More importantly your meta has ANT, MUC, and Combo. You're Aggro-Rock but you still need a little bit to stop those decks. Otherwise, You have to get lucky any only play the other aggro match-ups.

You have time though, use it to test all of your meta and adjust accordingly. To help with the Dragon Stompy match-up I would alter the manabase. You'll find tht your list isn't as color intense as you may think it is (16 non-basics). You should be able to get by with only 7 fetches and 5 Duals, even if you don't have a Savannah (Noble).

Personally, I would play control Rock for your meta. It's a lot more resilient and can change to be more aggressive by your own play style.

publius_aelius

04-07-2010, 09:16 AM

You have time though, use it to test all of your meta and adjust accordingly. To help with the Dragon Stompy match-up I would alter the manabase. You'll find tht your list isn't as color intense as you may think it is (16 non-basics). You should be able to get by with only 7 fetches and 5 Duals, even if you don't have a Savannah (Noble).
Personally, I would play control Rock for your meta. It's a lot more resilient and can change to be more aggressive by your own play style.

I've recently been trying out a similar build as Arsenal:

24 LANDS:
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Forest
4 Plains
4 Swamp

16 CREATURES:
4 Dark Confidant
2 Doran
3 Knight of Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wall of Blossoms

6 DISRUPTION
2 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 UTILITY
3 Sensei's Divining Top

11 REMOVAL
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Maelstrom Pulse

15 SIDEBOARD:

2 Diabolic Edict (defense against Progenitus)
2 Gaddock Teeg (vs ANT)
3 Engineered Plague (vs Elves, vs Goblins)
2 Tormod's Crypt (vs Dredge, vs Reanimator)
1 Hide/Seek (defense against Progenitus etc.)
3 Kitchen Finks (vs Burn, vs Naya)
2 Bind (universal choice)

I suppose it has 50/50 chances on average to win against any deck (except ANT), which is the main characteristic of the Rock. BUT, it is painfully slow. If I try to speed it up by tossing out disruption, it loses it's "IT CAN BE AGGRO OR IT CAN BE CONTROL" characteristic and it can not hope to outrace RGW Zoo builds.

Taking into account that my local metagame is full of aggro decks, I'm considering swaping Hymns with Gerrard's Verdict because of possible life gain, and because of Hymn's BB mana cost.

Wall of Blossoms is here as a meta choice. It is a classic card advantage card and can work well with Doran.

I play Maelstrom Pulse instead of Vindicate because of Iona. If he chooses white - I'll Pulse her. If he chooses black, I'll exile her.

My greatest concern is ANT. PRE-sideboard I can't win. Period. Post-sideboard, my only chance is Gaddock, Seek or Bind.

I would appreciate any constructive advice.

AggroSteve

04-07-2010, 10:58 AM

i would not recomend cutting the hymn in favor of verdict, even thought verdict is easier to cast and the possible lifegain, most decks will just discard dead cards or the card which are of the least use against you

i played both, i was always happy with verdict but when i cut it for hymn the aggro matchup got better even if its a little bit harder to cast early (specialy if your playing shocklands due to lack of real duals *grrrr* )

if you like the more control path why nit trying playing more discard less removal, just like a senor weenie

i myself am just playing 4 thoughtsieze i cut verdict and hymn completely, but its a matter of playstyle, i like the more aggro style better, but with my build i'm able to play both

besides, i play nighthawks as well, and they are shining specialy in the aggro and aggro-control matchups, in addiction i'm considering playing stoneforge mystic, since i'm allready playing 2 swords of light and shadow (which are great, with nighthawk they are soooooo good, and otherwise they protect every guy you have from the most common removal, i just like them)

hope i could help, and sorry for my "not-perfect-english" since i'm from south tyrol in italy^^

damionblackgear

04-07-2010, 05:34 PM

publius_aelius - As much of a fan of knight as I am I think it's best with a couple of lands to "assist" her. Without them she might as well be a vanilla creature. She litterally reads "Tap, Sacrifice a Forest or a Plains:Do Something amaxzing" With reminder text to keep things only as they are available.

All and All, I can't say how much of a fan I am of Knight. It even trumps Iona if you adjust your land-base (even graveyard hate exists in an on-color land). I shouldn't hype her up to be so much but, like I said, if you're going to play her, you should take full advantage of her.

You asked for criticism and I think that should be given, I think that you have an open slot in your deck, the lands. I say this because you have such a low CMC. 24 lands does help Bob damage but it seems a bit much. Have you been hitting land clumps when you don't have Bob or Top?

*Edit: Bind doesn't do anything to ANT, unless you want to Bind their fetchlands. It may be a Wasted spot in th board since it only hits non-mana activated abilities. Or, are you seeing other activated abilities in your meta that you need to deal with?

Lastly, I think that AggroSteve is correct. Don't change Hymn to Verdict. If you're going to cut Hymn do it for the other 2 Thoughtseize and a 2 of something else. Verdict is easier to cast but gives them options. That's what you don't want to do. It's the same reason that Browbeat isn't played in burn.

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AggroSteve - Your English reads just fine. You don't need to apologize. :)

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Everyone - Why are we boarding the Edicts? Are we that afraid of a first turn Lackey that we are still playing Swords main? I understand it's also good vs burn. From what I've seen from lists, most people are incorporating a creature that gains life (Finks, Nighthawk, etc) into their builds so they should be OK vs that match-up. Basically, if Progenitus is such an issue, setup to deal with it main. It also gives you outs to Reanimator since they really can't afford to risk playing Iona on black (Swords is the most popular removal in the format!).

MrShine

04-07-2010, 07:02 PM

1- In regards to the ANT/combo matchup, there are two ways I see us being able to deal with it. 1) ignore it and hope you don't get paired against it. It has been said time and time again that your sideboard should exist to help to make OK matchups more winnable, not used to try to salvage a terrible one. That being said, if you are looking for combo hate, option 2) is either play something like 3x Thorn of Amythest or an Enlightened Tutor package (which I'm still experimenting with ATM)- 2x E Tutor, 1x thorn, 1x Ethersworn cannonist.

2- I think in terms of utility vs Aggro Finks is way better than nighthawk; it gains us more life after dying to a blocker than nighthawk (4 vs 2), is easier on the mana, and persists after any removal that isnt STP or PTE for additional blocks. While nighthawk CAN trade with any monster, I would personally choose Finks for more blocking power.

3- I agree that 24 lands is WAYYY too much... I'm playing 21 with a bunch of 4/5 CC spells in my control deck right now and I still get flooded. On that note, I have been experimenting with Horizon Canopy to marginal success; its great late when you can just cycle it but the pain hurts early, especially vs aggro which is very common in my meta.

@damion - I don't really undertand your last comment... are you suggesting putting edicts maindeck? NOT playing STP maindeck? In any case goblins is a terrible matchup, and a 1st turn lackey might be one of my most dreaded plays from the opponent... that being said, discard does have value vs gobs so the lists packing Hymn should be doing a little better at least (as long as its follwed up by a threat T3)

AggroSteve

04-07-2010, 08:58 PM

in my list (follows) i'm just boarding in the diabolic edicts as addictional removal against goblins
generally, even though i play a aggro rock, my deck gives me the option to switch to control in aggroheavy metas

here's my list (sideboard still experimental, since i'm quite new in tournaments, but needs help i would say)

22 lands

3x verdant catacombs
3x windswepth heath
2x bloodstained mire (still haven't got the march flats)
2x overgrown tomb
2x godless shrine
2x temple garden
1x volrath's stronghold (good, but not sure if i still need it in the aggro build)
1x oran rief, the vastewood (not quite satisfied with it, might change it back to nantuko monastery)
2x forest
2x swamp
2x plains

19 creatures

3x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf (got only one at the moment, so if someone knows where i can get them for a cheap price please tell me)
4x kitchen finks
2x vampire nighthawk
3x doran, the siege tower
3x eternal witness

20 spells

3x sensei's divining top
2x sword of light and shadow
4x swords to plowshares
4x vindicate
3x pernicious deed
4x thoughtsieze

SB

3x gaddock teeg
3x relic of progenitus
2x hide/seek
3x krosan grip
4x diabolic edict

(playing 61 cards MD, it's ever been like this since i started playing magic, and i wont change this even if my head would fall of my shoulders^^)

well you see, i'm quite heavy on removal, if its goblins which i'm playing against, most of the times its enough to just board out the nighthawks and swords for the diabolic edicts to win

shocklands is due to lack of real duals which sucks, the lifeloss in my list is quite heavy, and as well due to lack of knight of the reliquary i'm playing doran right now, but i'm quite satisfied with him
as you can see my greatest problem would be combo, against which i can only board in teegs and hide/seek (hoping oponent plays only singletons of Ad Nauseum and Tendrills, against belcher they have no use, sadly^^)

i'm right now considering playing mealstrom pulse over deed, has anyone mad good expierience with this change?
and i' right now considering playing stoneforge mystic instead of witness for a little tutor effect for the sword (which i would change into 1 light/shadow and 1 fire/ice, no jitte as long as i'm playing deed, if it changes jitte might come into the deck instead of swords)

what do you think, what could i improve,....

__________

and thanks damionblackgear, now i feel way better, did not think my english was still acceptable, since i'm not used to write or speak in this language anymore^^ (till i joined the source :D)

publius_aelius

04-08-2010, 06:04 AM

Thanks guys. Your criticism and suggestions are appreciated.

So, I've altered the deck accordingly:

23 LANDS:
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
4 Forest
4 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Swamp

I don't think I can go below 23 lands, considering that my local metagame is full of wastelands and similar land destructing garbage.

19 CREATURES:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Knight of Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks

I've increased the number of creatures. Mainboarded Finks shield me from Naya Zoo and other Aggro. Birds are here to speed me up early and because I needed something to play during turn 1, except swords or SdT. Later on they can serve as chumpers.

4 DISRUPTION
4 Hymn to Tourach

This can be Cabal Therapy. I'm not certain yet which is the optimal choice for this build.

3 UTILITY
3 Sensei's Divining Top

11 REMOVAL
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords
3 Putrefy/Maelstrom Pulse/Terror/Diabolic Edict

I'm also not certain about the alternative removal beside Swords. I must test it. Putrefy is useful against Rouge Scepters lurking around. :) I simply love Maelstrom Pulse, but it hurts me when I have to remove a Goyf with mine on the table. Diabolic Edict is useful against Progenitus, and Terror seems a good choice considering that I don't see many black creatures in my local enviroment.

15 SIDEBOARD:
3 Extripate (vs Dredge, Reanimator etc.)
2 Tormod's Crypt (vs Dredge, Reanimator)
2 Gaddock Teeg (vs ANT)
4 Engineered Plague (vs Dredge, Tribal)
3 Chalice of the Void (vs Ant, could be useful against Tribal & WW)
2 Hide/Seek (vs Reanimator, Progenitus)

@ Aggrosteve

Do you really need Sword of Light and Shadow? I mean, it's sinergy with Deed is doubtful. That way you decrease your deck size to 60 with an open slot for something like additional disruption.

AggroSteve

04-08-2010, 02:37 PM

till now i really loved the swords, may sound strange but, if i get a creature equiped its hard to get rid of it since the most removal played are swords or paths, bolts do not even reach a goyf (if played as 4/5), nor a doran, plus most time i need to blow a deed for two, so swords sticks (at least most of the times) the recursion is just a good sideeffect

and as i said i'm considering playing stoneforge mystic, 1 jitte, 1 sword of fire/ice, 1 sword of light/shadow, just like Death an Taxes is doing, right now i'm stuck with getting the cards (for my DnT^^) than begins the testing, hopefully something good comes out^^

otherwise i have to say that if i had 2 elspeth, probably i would rather play them over the 2 swords of light and shadow, so its a budget decision as well, but i wouldn cut them for addictional disruption right now, i think or you go the boardcontrol-direction, or the disruption-direction, i've played hymn and verdict, but i'm way happier with more creatures and only the 4 thoughtsieze (probably due to playstyle as well)

hope this makes my thoughts a little clearer, and i'll stick with the 61 cards :P

damionblackgear

04-08-2010, 03:57 PM

MrShine - I, am, suggesting cutting the Swords for Edicts. I figured that our swarm defense was strong enough as it is. We can deal with the results of a 1st turn Lackey pretty easily, even without Swords. The issues we've been fighting are Progenitus and Iona *white*. Both of these are solved by Edict.

I'm wondering, since you mentioned having Horizon Canopy, if you have any way of recursion for it. I am running Crucible since Rock enjoys having lands as well. But, I also have a land toolbox within my deck; so I can tutor them without hindering my development.

On a side Note: How has Control Rock been working out for you? I've been playing it for a while now and I'm hitting a wall in development. I solved the Reanimator issue as well as ANT and Belcher *4x Thorn from the board has changed my match-up to about 55-45 instead of 30-70*. Merfolk is a joke * Literally only lost to the deck only because Bob 22'd me!*. I haven't gotten to play against Gobs or Zoo since I tweaked the board but they weren't bad main.

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publius_aelius - If you're worried about Waste you can always fetch your basics. I would probably add another fetch just to make it more consistant. You have SO MANY BASICS though that I don' think you have to worry about anything. Our lists are different though and you need more colors that I do so the extra fetch may not make things easier. Just something to look into.

*I just realized you also have 4 birds... You can cut some lands if you want. The wastes are almost useless. I almost asked you why not Noble but I realize that your list is mostly black so you need to focus there.

-----

AggroSteve - Just wondering, Why only 3 Bobs? I'm still not used to seeing it in lists as a 3 of so I'm just curious.

AggroSteve

04-09-2010, 08:13 AM

hehe.... knew this possibly would come up, there are a few reasons though they might sound a bit strange... ok i'll just sart with my explanations

1. bob is good but not absolutely needed
2. we have got a lot of library-manipulation with SDT and 8 fetchs, so you'll find one if you want one
3. if a bob is allready in play i would rather draw into a beater like goyf/doran instead of another bob
4. it does not allways happen that you've got both bob and SDT, and in some matchups thats my death, specially because i'm still using shockland (lack of real duals)
5. i would rather put in a 4th SDT instead of 4th BOB, may it be playstyle or whatever, the divining top helped me out of bad situations way more often than bob, though the CA of bob often kills your oponent on its own

so right now the number for me will be 3, hope these reasons are at least a bit understandeble^^

besides damionblackgear, do the thorns really do so much against ANT and Belcher, i haven't tested them but im not that convinced, and i'm not sure what to take out of my sideboard for them, the only options i see are 2x hide/seek and 3x gaddock teeg which were for this matchup, what would you reccomend

damionblackgear

04-09-2010, 09:54 AM

Thanks for explaining. I was just used to 4 or 0 so I was curious. I'm gonna give it an attempt after I get back from Chicago's 1k.

On Thorn, Our worst match-ups are Burn and combo. Thresh can be fun, Folk is a joke, and Gobs.. can be fast enough... Combo and Burn create issues though. We pray for a creature that gains life and a swords to hit our own goyf. Why not slow them down a little?

Ant has a difficult time because one thorn means Dark Ritual against 1, Cabal Rit 2. Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox... 0. That's really useful. Most of them will side in bounce but what do they do when they see a second one on the stack? Additionally we can protect it via discard (earlier or later).

Belchor has an easier time around it but the math on a single Thorn in play is almost the same: First rite, 0, second right, 1 (total of .5 for the 2), Seething song is a +1 instead of +2. Having that slowdown can really stop those decks. And with the removal we have we can stop atinder wall that comes down to produce mana (as long as it's not used).

I was skeptical about Thorn until I tried it. I think it's the best weapon we have. I beat both Ant and Belchor in my last tournament due to Thorn being played Turn 2. I would say give it a shot. I don't know what I would cut right now. I'll come back and edit this with my idea.

brianw712

04-09-2010, 10:23 AM

Hmm, I don't know about siding in Thorn against Burn and Reanimator. In my opinion, it is INCREDIBLY ineffective against those two decks. Both decks can easily get the extra 1 mana a turn that they need. I think of it like this: Thorn is basically a Sinkhole in those matchups, except it also hurts you. Would you side in Sinkhole against Burn or Reanimator? Probably not.

That said, Thorn is a beating on ANT. Sure, they can still go Mystical-->Bounce-->Win, but it slows them do win by at least two turns. Two turns might be all that is needed to find and play another hate card, or beat them down to low enough life for Ad Nauseam to be ineffective.

Thorn against Belcher is a different story. It shouldn't be your primary tool to fight Belcher. The way I see it, Belcher almost always goes off on turn 1, sometimes 2, but it's sheer speed means you really need turn one Thoughtseize (or something like Deed to clean up Empty the Warrens tokens) to win this matchup. I see Thorn as the final nail in the coffin once you've dealt with their initial attempt to go off, but sometimes it might come too late.

AggroSteve

04-09-2010, 02:03 PM

brianw712, sorry but why are you getting to the idea to board in thorns agains reanimator, i would never even consider such a thing, and burn doesn't see play much around here so about that i wont worry
against reanimator obviosly board diabolic edict, i see no other options, it's the best card for that matchup

thorn agains ANT, i'm still not so sure but the fact that it slows them down is allready good, and i would not only board thorns in that case, hide/seek is an option or gaddock teeg, and of course the mainbord thoughtsieze should come handy as well, so i for my part will surely give them a shot, but sure 1 thorn wont be enought to stop ANT, but it slows, and you've got a lot of big beaters, and they allmost wont be able to go of with 7 life or whatever ( just iggy still works)

thorn against belcher is really a diffent story, i have no objections there, they will try to go off in their first turn, thats the only thing that makes belcher strong, i'm really not sure if thorns are not to slow here, you can winn if you're on the play and thoughtsieze him an then lay down a thorn thats for sure, otherwise you need deed ore pulse, or you are allready dead.

brianw712

04-09-2010, 02:38 PM

sdematt

04-09-2010, 05:50 PM

I just recently won a local four-round legacy tournament with the following list:

4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
3 Savannah
2 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Forest

3 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
1 Lord of Extinction
2 Tombstalker

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Phyrexian Arena

Sideboard I was running:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
3 Planar Void
4 Leyline of the Void

There were 3 Dredge decks running around, that's why all the hate.

Round 1: Dredge
The matchup I didn't feel like playing after a long day at school. Game 1 I got beaten pretty badly, with Iona coming out.
Game 2 I drew into double Planar Void. After playing my Void, getting it bounced and discarded, I laid another. I put down Doran a few turns later, and a Leyline. I won.
Game 3 I started out with a Leyline in play, with Planar Void backup in hand. I drew into another Void, and laid them all down. My opponent scooped.

Boarded in: 4 Leyline, 3 Void, 4 Plague
Boarded out: 3 Arena, 4 Hymn, 4 Thoughtseize

Score: 1-0

Round 2: Goblins
He plays first turn Lackey, I swords. Second turn Piledriver, I swords. Third turn he stalls, I play Doran. He plays vial on fourth turn, I hymn away Gobbos, and swing. I won.
Game 2, I open with two lands and keep. I didn't hit another land ever again.
Game 3, I opened with Thoughtseize, followed by Goyf. I hit Arena turn 3, and drew into Engineered Plague, followed by Doran. I swords away his Chieftain, and eventually got the second Plague to seal the deal.

Board in: 4 Engineered Plague, 3 Pithing Needle
Board out: 1 Lord of Extinction, 3 Eternal Witness, 1 Arena, 1 Stronghold, 1 Thoughtseize

Score: 2-0

Round 3: 43 Land
Another matchup I had no intention of winning. First game, I get bogged down in Wastelands and Ports, along with Mazes. He has my mana base almost shut down. I got a few attacks in with a Goyf early, but I was losing badly. I eventually got enough lucky topdecks with Arena onboard to hit enough creatures and vindicates to blow up the Mazes. The game took 40 minutes, and I was at 6. It was very tight.
Game 2, I lay down 2 Leylines and a Pithing Needle on Ghost Quarter first turn off of a Swamp. Second turn, Planar Void. We played for the 5 minutes until time-up, and I won.

Board in: 4 Leyline, 4 Pithing Needle, 3 Planar Void
Board out: 4 Tarmogoyf, 2 Maelstrom Pulse, 4 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Lord of Extinction

Score: 3-0

Round 4: Merfolk
At this point, I was mentally drained from playing 43 land, so we looked at the tie-breakers and there was no way second place was going to be anymore but me or my opponent, so we split for first. I chose 13 packs of Rise of the Eldrazi :D

So far, I'm pretty happy with my versions performance. The creature base might need a bit of work, but we'll see. Lord of Extinction wasn't seen in any of my games, but when I have used him before (ex. Dreadstill matchup a few weeks ago) he was amazing. We'll see.

-Matt

Plague Sliver

04-09-2010, 06:52 PM

damionblackgear

04-09-2010, 07:15 PM

I was actually advocating against boarding in Thorns against Reanimator. I brought it up because damionblackgear said before that bringing in 4 Thorns helped both his Reanimator and his Belcher matchup.

Huh? I'm sorry, I'm still looking for that reference. Was it on another page? I read the comment above and saw that there was Burn, Combo (ANT and Belchor) Goblins mentioned but I can't find reanimator... ?:|

----

AggroSteve - On our previous talk about Thorn and your sideboard, I would cut the Grips and a Teeg for the 4 Thorns. Reasons being that:
Teeg is good but He's really meant (for us) to be a combo stopper. Granted he does block a Zoo Critter but he isn't the best to deal with them. You're Edicts will be better. And Thorn doesn't get slaughter pacted.

Grip isn't really useful anymore. It was a nice way to get out of a counterbalance lock but you can just hold vindicates or not use a deed and to deal with them. Countertop is also starting to leave the format since Merfolk entered the meta. They need something to solve that deck and can't really focus on all of our ways to solve there issues.

Not sure about there being 4 edicts though. It almost seems like if you're going to

----

I agree with AggroSteve. Thorn isn't the fastest and Belchor likes to go off on the first turn. Ant on the other hand is starting to play 2 of AdN and 2 Tendrills, So Hide/Seek is getting worse there. If you get lucky you won't play against an updated list though... Also, 2 is about as fast as we get, and this is just a generic 2. We don't get much for playable combo hate. It breaks down to a preference a this point though.

sdematt

04-09-2010, 09:58 PM

Thanks Plague for the support!

Needle is in there for Belcher, Vial, Wasteland, Port, Maze, etc...It was very good in the second 43 land game I played, although it was a short one.

The Lord of Extinction at the moment is my Flex spot. Tombstalker is quite anti-synergistic with Tarmogoyf, and the plan that I'm running with the Eternal Witness package. The Lord is there for big-beats near the end of the game, or just general fat. He's easily a 7/7 by the time he comes out, and basically has to be dealt with. With him and a Deed on board, I can sweep, then swing for lethal, making my opponent literally "Do or Die," which usually involves Swords.

Swords nicely gives me ~20 life in the mid-late game, which can help me boost out of a tight spot (if I'm getting low on life, I've also Swords it myself, then I came back to win the game). I was playing 2, but I've cut it down to one at the moment. So far, he hasn't let me down, but I may consider a Knight of the Reliquary or another Tombstalker.

-Matt

brianw712

04-10-2010, 11:24 AM

Huh? I'm sorry, I'm still looking for that reference. Was it on another page? I read the comment above and saw that there was Burn, Combo (ANT and Belchor) Goblins mentioned but I can't find reanimator... ?:|

I solved the Reanimator issue as well as ANT and Belcher *4x Thorn from the board has changed my match-up to about 55-45 instead of 30-70*

I might have misinterpreted this as you boarding in Thorns for all three matchups. You probably only meant ANT and Belcher, in which case I'm sorry for the confusion.

dyzzy

04-11-2010, 08:29 PM

I'm working on a new list and I want some suggestions for the mana base and SB. Currently this is what I'm thinking:

Lands (22): (note: this mana base took approximately 5 seconds to come up with so it's probably really bad)
4x Bayou
4x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Treetop Village

Creatures (24):
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Kitchen Finks

Spells (14):
4x Thoughtseize
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Vindicate
2x Maelstrom Pulse (Note: the 2/2 Vindicate/Pulse split is so I have MD outs to Iona on white.)

SB:
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersword Canonist
2x Engineered Plague
5x ??? (Diabolic Edict? Duress? Jitte?)

damionblackgear

04-12-2010, 04:13 PM

I apologize. I was talking about Belchor and ANT for the Thorn. My grammar was definitely misleading there. I'll work on using proper punctuation to write what I am trying to say.

The Thorns are for ANT and Belchor. I'm debating between Faerie Macabre and Leyline for Graveyard hate. I want it to be available on first turn (Even if it's not mine). Currently I have Leyline but the only reason is for Ichorid. I am trying to figure out if I win by just taking 2 key cards or if I need to have all of them go away.

AggroSteve

04-13-2010, 08:15 AM

fearie macabre would be the top card against reanimator i think, since they don't have to fear a leyline they will probably go for reanimate and not show and tell, plus fearie can't be bounced, but against ichorid i'm not sure, i think i would opt for leyline since i haven't got any expirience with fearie against ichorid and i'm affraid it won't be enough

damionblackgear

04-13-2010, 11:51 AM

In theory, getting the Zealot + Iona should be enough but, theory is only good after proven. I am going to be testing it but I won't have the time I used to because I'm going to be in class during the weekly tournaments soon.

The main flaw I see to hand based removal as opposed to permanent is Therapy. Once they see it the first game they know what to name the next time. I'm fine once I get to an active Knight though *Fetch Bog* can solve all issues I have. With a top I can try and keep one hidden on the top but there is the chance that you need to fetch... that always makes things awkward.

AggroSteve

04-14-2010, 08:18 AM

since ichorid is a rarely played deck in my neighborhood (hopefully written correctly^^) i havent got much expierience with it, i'm practically the only one from my friends ho is actually able to play that deck, and from that viewpoint i absolutely have to say i think leylines are the best, just good to slow them down, to get all the removal you need, which in my case the prefered one is deed and diabolic edict from the sideboard. but since i havent got a lot on expierience against the deck probably i should shut my mouth and let the more expierienced players do the talking.... but somithing that is not to forget.... you can edict or vindicate/deed your own creature to get rid of bridges, allready made that move, and opponents face was just hilarious

sdematt

04-14-2010, 09:54 AM

Against Dredge, I pack 4 Leyline and 3 Planar Void. I've found it to be stellar. Even if they bring in 7 pieces of hate, I can usually get there before they can. I'm sure 3 Extirpate would also work, but I've found Planar Void pretty awesome, too.
-Matt

brianw712

04-14-2010, 10:31 AM

@sdematt: I'm surprised you run 3 Planar Void in the sideboard. Remember that it hits both graveyards. A turn one Planar Void means Tarmogoyf is forever a 0/1, Tombstalker costs forever 8 mana, Lord of Extinction is a 5 mana do-nothing, and Eternal Witness is a 3 mana 2/1. It might be more backbreaking against Dredge than it is against you, but it seems a bit narrow, since I don't think you could profitably bring it in against Loam-based decks. I would suggest Wheel of Sun and Moon, which does basically the same thing, except it costs one mana more and only affects one player.

damionblackgear

04-14-2010, 02:01 PM

7 hate cards is a little more than I'm willing to dedicate to anything in my board. To be honest I'm more about finding answers to problems more so than stopping a deck. Granted there are becoming more and more decks based around a single attack strategy but they all (usually) operate differently than the next deck. But, I'm not trying to play a card that narrowly solves 1 or 2 decks, I'm trying to play a card that has multiple uses against many decks.

I guess that the best way to explain this further is to say, "I have a Primal Command in my main and, I've used all combinations of it's modes to win."

sdematt

04-15-2010, 09:02 PM

It does hit me in the nuts quite hard as well (Planar Void), but I've enjoyed running it. Yes, Tarmogoyfs really just get infinitely bad, and as sad as it is, I side them out at times. Wheel does seems like a decent option though, I'll most definitely give it a try. Only problem I'm thinking is possibly being too slow. These days, I never see Dredge go off Turn 1 anymore, so I doubt the concern is warranted. Thanks very much for the suggestion!

With regards to the previous poster, I understand 7 slots is quite a lot. I understand your trepidation in running 7 pieces of grave-hate. But, the newest matchups that are a real pain to win are 43-Land, Reanimator (not necessarily a pain to win for this deck, but just generally speaking), Dredge, Survival, etc. I honestly HATE Dredge with a passion, and I really hate losing to it. I'd rather pack the hate and crush a few key decks (forgot Aggro Loam, so that too hates grave-hate) rather than adding in 3 slots to patch-up a matchup somewhere else.

What do you run as a sideboard? Mine seems pretty standard, but I'm curious as to what other people are running (obviously if you've posted recently, I've seen it, but if you haven't, I'd love to see what everyone seems to be running in common as of late).

Thanks!

-Matt

Combo Winter

04-16-2010, 06:47 AM

I play a much more controlling version than any posted on here. I honesty feel that 4 goyf and 7 natural order are enough beaters. I feel that beating down with knights ect. is a slower kill a lot of the time. Not to mention by switching the beater to guys that maintain card advantage deed becomes a blowout every time and its not like your killing your hard earned board advantage by deeding away all your own guys. Also revolving around natural order and not lower costed beaters takes you out of counter balance range. I might play fissure in the side to have a an answer to iona set to black but natural order into niboshiba can easily race it. I feel pretty confidant in the list as it is my the main deck I play if anyone else plays a more controlling list I would be intrigued in seeing what you think because my zoo matchup is quite solid as is the counterbalance one. Also i noticed that red is not popular splash recently but i would attribute that mostly to the quality of the g/w beaters as red is a quite strong as a control option.

Burning Rock

4 birds of paradise
4 goyf
4 wall of blossoms
3 eternal witness
1 prog
1 phantom niboshiba

4 duress
4 therapy
3 natural order
2 terminate
4 deed
4 burning wish

3 treetop village
4 foothills
4 g/b fetch
3 bayou
3 tiaga
2 forest
1 m
2 swamp

side
3 finks
4 leyline of the void
1 sadistic sacrement
1 natural order
1 firespout
1 primal command
1 pulse
1 thoughtseize
1 damnation
1 boiling seas

brianw712

04-16-2010, 10:38 AM

@sdematt:

My sideboard is a little unconventional:

3 Extirpate
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Armadillo Cloak
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Pernicious Deed

It's still currently under construction. There's so much I want to fit in my sideboard, but there never seems to be enough space :frown:.

damionblackgear

04-16-2010, 10:58 AM

sdematt - I don't really classify my list as a Rock deck (more Rock styled) but the boards are similar.

1 Bojuka Bog
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Choke
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Leyline of the Void

I'm constantly tweaking and testing but it's been getting there more often than not. I may also test Child of Korlis over Bog but that'll be a while before that happens.

DCTopTeam

04-19-2010, 07:12 AM

Me and my teammates are slowly building this deck and I just have a few questions particularly the BG build, as this is the build we are more leaning to base our Rock deck.

1. What are the advantages/disadvantages between BG and BGW Rock?

2. What is the ideal BG Rock build in a meta dominated by Merfolks and Goblins?

Thanks in advance!

damionblackgear

04-19-2010, 01:21 PM

BantFTW

04-19-2010, 01:59 PM

I was watching the rock lists on deckcheck when I saw this list, a really nice list...

4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Natural Order
1 Worm Harvest

1 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives

3 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Swamp
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Deathmark
3 Choke
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Bojuka Bog

I really like the progenitus because it's a win against some decks that don't excpect it...
It's like a surprise effect :P
You also have mass-removal and card adventage from confidant

I didn't tested it yet or something but it seems really nice.
What do you guys think of it?

AggroSteve

04-19-2010, 06:26 PM

well actually i really do not like NO / Progenitus, sure it wins you games, but afterboard the oponent will have solutions against it if not allready preboard, it may just be my opinion but i will not play NO / Progenitus, since its 1) not my style, 2) i think the rock is not the deck that uses it the best, meaning can't protect it if opponent comes up with a solution, and using progenitus is meant to kill (allmost) for sure with it

the deck which actually uses progenitus a lot more efficient is countertop / bant, which can speed up into progenitus, has enough creatures where you do not care if they die, and can protect it with countermagic
well yes your build is specifically adapted to have a better use of Natural Order/Progenitus, but, if you do not draw into it, i would say, a conventional/non-progenitus build would have the upper hand over you, by just deeding away your creatures so you wont be able to sacrifice any for Natural Order

DCTopTeam

04-20-2010, 03:23 AM

I can't speak in it's entirety but from what I do know,

1) The BGW version gains things like Vindicate, Swords, Knight... Those cards while not all amazing are still some of the better cards in the format. No they're not Progenitus but they do solve problems (which is the general sense of the rock) and create questions for your opponent to answer. The issue is usually the land-base at that point. BG has a more stable base and can play a more focused plan. It allows for easier fixing and more slots in the land to be adjusted. It also allows for more color-intense spells. Deciding on which to play is a mater of style.

2) One with a lot of removal. Fast targeted is better since you can kill things like Lackey and lords to slow them down. Your creatures are usually more powerful than theirs. If your meta lacks black critters I would even suggest vendetta (just got reprinted) because you'll lose about 2 or so per use against these decks.

Thanks for your time. How about this build?

Lands

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills (or any green fetch for that matter)
4 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Volraths Stronghold
3 Swamp
2 Forest
_____
20

Creatures

3 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Nyxathid
_____
17

Non Creatures

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
_____
23

SB

3 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Plague
3 Choke
2 Extirpate

Vacrix

04-20-2010, 03:53 AM

Combo Winter

04-20-2010, 04:50 AM

Thanks for your comments. I agree that the whishboard could be cut down a bit but i dont know what to cut as I like having a solid hate card for every major matchup. A agree that my plan vs combo which is basically try to wish for sadistic after turn one discard isnt that sound. The only thing i can think of as an obvious cut from the board would be damnation. I also could pull the finks as my aggro matchup is decent but that may not be the best idea. What combo hate would you suggest as thorn, 3sphere, and chalice all seem not optimal in my version.

Vacrix

04-20-2010, 10:54 AM

I wouldn't cut Damnation. Its another sweeper, and it looks like sometimes you will need 2 with Burning Wish. Its also your only out to Progenitals besides finding your own NO.

Your list already looks great against aggro. Is finks really necessary? I know he gains life and chumps twice but you have 8 sweepers, 2 targeted removal, and 4 Therapy.

I like your Sacrament plan against combo. Its actually not a bad strategy after Burning Wish. I'd go with Thorn, as you should be dead before 3sphere hits (though occasionally you might play it turn 2 with BoP). Turn 1 Duress, Turn 2 Burning Wish/Thorn isn't that bad. If you can get some other stuff online then after like more discard, and press at the life total, conventional ANT builds will roll over and die as they need their life as a resource to draw cards (unless they IGG loop instead). Its a bad matchup for you in general but I think x3 Thorn from the board would it help it out.

Also, how is your Ichorid/Reanimator matchup? In Reanimator, Innocent Blood > Terminate.

damionblackgear

04-20-2010, 01:11 PM

Thanks for your time. How about this build?

Lands

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills (or any green fetch for that matter)
4 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Volraths Stronghold
3 Swamp
2 Forest
_____
20

Creatures

3 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Nyxathid
_____
17

Non Creatures

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
_____
23

SB

3 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Plague
3 Choke
2 Extirpate

I like the list but it seems like you're trying to be both Rock and Eva Green at once. I can't knock the idea since my list plays like 5 different decks depending on the draw, but... You have to be able to make it work. I'm not a fan of Nyxathid, or any situational creature either. I know TS has power but I don't like his casting restriction. Honestly, I would play Bitter Blossom and 2 Jittes in his place and just go the Eva Green route with this idea.

It seems like it would be stronger for this thought pattern.

throst54

04-20-2010, 01:44 PM

It looks like a worse Eva Green.

BGW gives you more control options in Swords/PtE and Vindicate and another aggro option in Doran. It also lets you play Knight of the Reliquary for land tricks- which in my opinion should be run with wastelands. This however screw you over against even little amounts of LD, since youre running 3 colors, theres atleast 2-4 cards your running that are have BB or GG in them and you have 3-4 wasteland.
BGW tends to be slower.
White splash also give you access to Loxodon Hierarch and opens up your sideboard to include Orim's chant etc etc.

BG is more streamlined and a lot less vulnerable to disruption.
Vendetta really isnt that great.
In BG removal is often, but not limited to, Smother, Diabolic Edict, Shriekmaw, Putrefy, and Maelstrom Pulse. Then for mass removal you have Deed and Damnnation, if youre running against faster hoarde decks Engineered Plague, Punishment//Crime, and Infest can be good out of your SB.
Darkblast is a good option if you're having problems with lackey and other 1/1s.
Basically you want to go heavy on the creature kill and lighter on the hand disruption against hoarde.

Finslayer

04-20-2010, 01:58 PM

I have been playing with this list and I've been quite satisfied

Lands

4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1/1/1 Forest,Plains,Swamp
=21

Creatures

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
=20

Non Creatures

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Umejawa's Jitte
1 Swords of Fire and Ice
=19

Sideboard

3 Choke
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
3 Pernicious Deed

I might want to switch SoFI for some other equipment or remove Stoneforge mystics and add some other cards
I don't want to make sideboard agains combo cause I think it won't make that matchup that much better.
Diabolic Edicts are there for Reanimator and other aggro decks, Deeds are there for Stax and Enchantress and can be good against some other decks too.

I would want to hear some comments on my list and some comments about if I should take Stoneforge Mystics out and what cards should I take on those places

damionblackgear

04-20-2010, 02:53 PM

Throst54 & DCTopTeam - The explosive power of the straight BG list is what Makes it competitive. There isn't anything wrong with slowing it down but there are things that you begin having to compensate for, many of which you can't anymore. You can compare the 2 versions but, because they function drastically different (even if they share a lot of the same cards) your thoughts will go in many different ways than they would've with the other. Introducing a color presents an entire new slew of problems and solutions.

DC, the reason your deck is still an option is because you are running Dark Ritual to power out quick disruption, and you need a single green for 11 spells in your main. and another handful out of your board. I'm not sure, so I may be wrong when I Throst54 was talking about the GG in the list (I also may be blind). I think he may be on to something with land-bases. Your base is REALLY shaky. Wasteland may be too much of a strain on your deck.

Throst54 is correct when he said that vendetta is not a staple legacy removal spell. It's not good vs the most used creature in legacy (goyf) and it can't kill Bob. But, if you're going into a merfolk and goblins filled meta, it's still going to get the job done better than smother and edict as they will most likely have something for you to kill at the cost of little life or 2.

Throst54 is also correct, in some aspects, when talking about the BGW versions. The biggest difference is that most lists run +20 lands so Wasteland hitting one or 2 is not the worst thing to happen. It's not an auto-lose unless you kept a suspect hand.

To be honest I'm more of a fan of the BGW version but I don't like the aggro approach. It seems that the aggro is what people have been testing the most so it's doing better in tournaments. The BG version of Rock limits its self in more ways. It's not just the Swords and vindicate as removal or even Knight as utility for a land toolbox. Swords gains life against decks you need life, Vindicate beats all permanent problems that come your way, and Knight usually smashes through a goyf after being active for a single turn.

While there are other cards worth splashing for those seem to be the most common. The others seems to be optional or still in testing.

Then there is the next choice of do you go GWb or GBw. both present their own paths to go and can fight the hate (it's rock... +50% vs the field is the objective... still not attained). With a black reach you can play thing like stronghold, which has been a staple in the GBw Rock, and more intense black spells. The white version seems to bring in things like Elspeth, who, can win games all on her own. That's a matter of play style/skill/preference when you get to that point.

The best thing a Rock player can do is not get attached to anything. Some times the best option for the field isn't the best option for us. So, DC, try your list out, make some changes, try it again. You won't know until you test. Who knows, maybe you just broke the format and we're being to critical on it.

PS. Doran... *huh* is an option I think everyone should avoid with their Rock. That's another story though.

-----

First, what does everyone think of Inquisition of Kozelik? I'm looking at it as a replacement for Thoughtseze. It seems as though it would do just fine. I won't get to test it before the next big tournament but I would like to at least have opinions to think about.

Second, What do people think of Momentous Fall? It seems like an option to me. Testing will show though.

throst54

04-20-2010, 04:08 PM

I like inquisition... i preorded 2 playsets suspecting to resell one once everyone realizes they need to own a set and they triple in price.
The only problems I see with it is that since rock is usually a mid-late game deck drawing it late game when you want to be ripping bombs from their hand is going to hurt... but then again when you're both in topdeck mode discard is the last thing you want to draw anyhow.
I think the better question is whether you will want to run it as a 4-of or as a split with thoughtseize and/or duress.

Momentous Fall looks amazing... but then again I really want to run it with Phyrexian Dreadnought, not in Rock... Harmonize would probably be better for rock.

FYI i completely agree about doran, but i knew it would be mentioned if I didnt. Adding white is for more control and answers.

I prefer BG because I like running Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy... Which while possible in the white splash is too 'messy' to be worth it often times.
I own all the cards to run whatever version I want, so I just constantly change my decklist depending on what im expecting to play- which is good in that if you play at the same tournament often people wont have a solid idea of what to hate against.

Just remember your goal is to have a good matchup against most decks, the Rock is a deck of answers.

damionblackgear

04-20-2010, 07:05 PM

I would probably run it as a 4 of (entirely cut thoughtseize). The ability to grab the force isn't that big when you just grab another blue card in hand and make them pitch something they wanted anyway. Mono Blue isn't that popular right now so they won't have an infinite supply of blue cards. Natural Order was another card I got asked about but I haven't had too many issues with ProG since I cut swords... it's an awkward build. I may actually be more GBw than GWb now...

I'm still a fan of Fall right now. The card seems like an advantage for this deck in every possible way. If nothing else that for the fact that it's an instant and can be used in, and around, more situations than harmonize. I guess it would be dependent on what the board situation is though. It would also depend on your list, too. If you don't have larger efficient creatures then drawing 2 or so cards isn't going to be as big as if you were drawing 4 or five. Non the less it still defends your guys from RFG effects (Swords).

brianw712

04-20-2010, 07:59 PM

I don't like Inquisition of Kozilek. There are just way too many cards in Legacy that it doesn't hit: Humility, Moat, Wrath of God, Fact or Fiction, Tombstalker, Force of Will, Natural Order, Dream Halls, Goblin Charbelcher, Empty the Warrens, Ad Nauseam, Tendrils of Agony, Ill-Gotten Gains, Smokestack, Armageddon, Magus of the Tabernacle, Planeswalkers...

DCTopTeam

04-20-2010, 08:04 PM

sdematt

04-20-2010, 08:16 PM

I would say that in a way, Inquisition of Koz. could replace either: Cabal Therapy, or Duress, depending on your build. In some ways, if I was running 4 Thoughtseize and say, 2 more Duress, I would definitely test 2 Inquistions and see how it plays out.

I read some posts back that Doran is bad for Rock. I agree for the fact he's 3 colours to play, but I disagree with the fact he's a 5/5 beatstick on turn 3 that makes Goyf better. It makes all Goyfs better, true, but I'm assuming I'll be blowing them up anyway. With a ton of land destruction, I most definitely do see the downside. As of yet, he's still in my build :D

-Matt

throst54

04-20-2010, 10:00 PM

The way i see it you already have a straight up huge beater, deck space is tight, if youre going to have any more creatures they better do whatever they are doing better than goyf. IE have CIP effects or have evasion

sdematt

04-20-2010, 10:18 PM

Well, the only thing I could think of to replace him: Knight of the Reliquary, Finks (but this seems a tad sub-par, but I have yet to try it), or...more Tarmogoyfs :tongue:

-Matt

damionblackgear

04-21-2010, 01:44 AM

You've never tried Knight?! She's amazing! I'm not just saying this because you can toolbox around him but because He's easier to cast, as big if not bigger that him after a single activation (waste your own land), creates a options in your manabase, Outs to things like back to basics (that was a fun game), and makes your draws more consistent.

Try the knight. It's a lot better than it seems.

-----

I understand why everyone hates the idea of limited discard but, when we're using out life as a resource to almost entirely unrestrict it, I'm wondering if it's really necessary. Yes, it has a huge list of cards that it doesn't get but it does get all of the things that the others need to be useful.

Sinkhole

04-26-2010, 12:24 PM

Hi guys,
I`ve decided running a Rock with 4 Knights of Reliquary and a litte land toolbox. I`m not a really expierenced Rock player and builder.I`m not sure, if a Knight of Reliquary dependant list is the best, but he could work as a cheap and fast clock and brings in flexibility, twice. So it would be great if you could give me some feedback on the idea and the list.

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of Reliquary

4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Theraphy (maybe I should do a 3/3 split)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

3 Sensei`s Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds

3 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plain

1 Wasteland
1 Volrath`s Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Cabal Pit

Ok that it is. I don`t know exactly how the Sideboard should look. But I will build it balanced for an unknown meta.
Thanks for your answers!

Greetz

Combo Winter

04-26-2010, 02:46 PM

I think you probably want dust bowl over wasteland if you just wanna play one as a knight tutor target. Also possibly noble hierarch over birds because you are playing a fairly aggro version. hierarch

AggroSteve

04-26-2010, 05:49 PM

i would play bojuka bog over cabal pit, and i do not think that the crucible would be needed

for sideboards, i've come to a conclusion at least for me, i am playing 2 different sideboards, depending on what decks will show up, one of my sideboards is against a meta with a lot of combo, the other one against a meta with a lot of gravebased decks

examples which cards are important in that case:

combo like ANT and Belcher: good are: thorn of amethyst, gaddock teeg

gravebased decks (dredge, reanimator, loam): 4x leyline of the void

an allrounder against a lot of decks in my sideboard is diabolic edict as 4of

first you should allways analise your meta, then build sideboard according to that meta, but i think the other people here are more expierienced and would also like to help you

sdematt

04-26-2010, 07:11 PM

If you're running a toolbox, go with Bog over Pit. I don't think you even need Wastelock in this type of deck. If you need to win by Wastelock, that's a problem that Mr. Tarmogoyf should have solved. Other than that, Karakas seems good, as with Stronghold. Nice job!

Other than that, your deck seems lean, and I mean that it's missing fatties. No Tombstalker? It justs seems like you have Goyf as a beater, and Knight. This very well may be enough, it's just so used to seeing Goyf, Stalker, and others.

Personally, I'd say -2 Cabal Therapy and try 2 Inquisition of Kozilek. You're already 4 Thoughtseize, but running 4 and 2 "almost' Thoughtseizes may be better.

-Matt

Sinkhole

04-26-2010, 08:14 PM

Ok thanks for your answers guys....

bajuka bog over cabal pit seems like a good choice, refferd of the actual meta game I think. I also agree on playing Dust Bowl over Wasteland, if you only run 1. I should having enough mana at the time I search it with the Khnigt. Inquisiton of Eldrazi is an interesting choice, I feel I would like it over the theraphys. But I have to test it out. And yes adding more fatties seems like a good idea, problem is that in my list there isn`t much room for cutting something. Maybe i should cut the random Crucible and one Fink and adding 2 Tombstalker or 2 Spiritmonger. What do you think of Monger? Make the regenaret effect worth it, or is this old school guy to slow :tongue:

sdematt

04-27-2010, 04:02 AM

Nowadays, regenerate does seem to be as much of an issue. If you were playing Black Green Rock, I'd say yes, but in tri-colour Rock, I'd opt for Tombstalker here. 5/5 is a decent body, and he comes out early due to delve, which makes it the better choice here. Your cuts seem right, and 2 Tombstalker isn't a terrible number, especially since you're running Dark confidant.

-Matt

zalachan

04-27-2010, 07:44 AM

If you/re going to run Tombstalkers, maybe you should include Hymn to Tourach instead of Inquisition of Kozilek and Dark Ritual instead of Birds/Hierarch? I would also cut a bit on Finks to include some number of Pernicious Deeds.
I like randomness of Hymn more than subparness of Inquisition, tbh.
Just a suggestion, though, lately i try to cut BoP from my lists, cause i like Deeds MD and i think Ritual (while it feels more like Eva Green, i guess) gives unfair advantage in some games. Sure its a dead draw sometimes, but BoP is, too.
Ritual plays so nice with Confidants, Stalkers and Deeds. Although it does feel a bit subpar sometimes in hands with Knights and Goyfs. Either way, i prefer lines of play including Ritual to those including Birds.
F.e.:
Seize->Ritual+Hymn+Goyf or
Ritual+Seize+Confidant or
Seize-> Ritual+Deed (imo better than BoP into Deed)
I dont really try to play my knights that early in the game, so i fuel my early game with rituals and then i play lategame Knights. I dont play Stalkers, though, i tery to play Knights or Stalkers, but not both.

publius_aelius

04-29-2010, 09:04 AM

@ sinkhole

I like your list. It's similar to the one I'm currently testing. But, do you really need fatties? With the removal and disruption you're playing, it's unlikely that your opponnent's creatures will be bigger than yours.

This brings me to something else. Lately I'm starting to doubt the Goyf.
Why? Because it's contrary to the Rock's nature. It doesn't bring card advantage - it will be exiled in the turn it hits the table at best, or will be reduced to 0/1 with graveyard destruction at worst. And it doesn't have any other useful ability. I mean - look at the creatures played in the rock during the years:

Yavimaya Elder - card advantage & land tutor
Eternal Witness - card advantage & "graveyard tutor"
Deranged Hermit - card advantage with Phyrexian Plaguelord
Phyrexian Plaguelord - removal
Wall of Blossoms - card advantage
Sakura - tempo advantage
Genesis - card advantage
etc.

Now we have:
KoR - land tutor
Confidant - card advantage
Finks - card advantage
Birds or Hierarchs - speed

Goyf - errr, ...4/5 for 2 mana that will be put to the sword = 2 of my mana for 1 of his mana

It's not that we lack cards for 2 mana and that without the Goyf our mana curve will be distorted.

Any thoughts?

Moonlight

04-29-2010, 10:59 AM

Goyf is stp'd on sight for a reason: The other player is dead if he doesnt kill it.
Isn't that a(the) reason worth using Goyf? ;)
Its a huge clock, for almost nothing.

brianw712

04-29-2010, 12:02 PM

If Goyf isn't removed, then he's virtual card advantage, simply by being bigger than opposing creatures. If you are against a Zoo player, then they have to spend two burn spells to kill it: card advantage. Rarely is it tempo loss, since it only cost you two mana to play it. The other creatures that you mentioned (Eternal Witness, Wall of Blossoms, etc.) provide card advantage in the strictest definition of the term, but they aren't really card advantage because their bodies are too small nowadays. Think about it this way: Goyf is basically a better Wall of Blossoms in terms of card advantage; although it doesn't cantrip, it can blank two opposing creatures (say, two Qasali Pridemages that would have been able to attack past a Wall of Blossoms but not past a Goyf) and provides a clock all on its own.

Sinkhole

04-29-2010, 12:24 PM

So I think we haven`t discussing cutting Goyf. :wink: He`s the most and best undercosted Vanilla Magic has been ever seen, every green Deck have to run it. He say: Handle me or you die! And if he gotten the Sword, how cares now your Confidant or something other is save for a while time.

@ zalachan:

I don`t want running Hymn and Ritual in a Gwb Rock, yes it can allow you sick 1. Turns like Eva Green does it. But Ritual can`t afford all the G/W Cards. Bird is more consistent, because you got the mana for more times, which is need in a mana hungry deck like Rock. But in an agressiv G/B Build i would run it. Also I`m not a fan of Pernicious Deed if you playing no recursion over witness and not much real fatties, which can survive your own deed.

zalachan

04-29-2010, 02:41 PM

@Sinkhole:

I don`t want running Hymn and Ritual in a Gwb Rock, yes it can allow you sick 1. Turns like Eva Green does it. But Ritual can`t afford all the G/W Cards.

True that. Thats why im running Pernicious Deed instead of Finks. But its personal preference and i dont like Birds alongside my Deeds.

Bird is more consistent, because you got the mana for more times, which is need in a mana hungry deck like Rock.
Your curve stops at 3, if you play tight and dont overextend, you will do off 4 lands just fine. Additional lands are plus and make Rock execute its plan better, but you can play just as fine with less. And Knight is also a BoP, if you want her to, intimidating opponents in the processs.
Sure, its nice to play anything you want on turn 2 off birds. But do you really thing the one-two punch the Bird provides is the thing you need? I would rather play more StP efects, stall early game with Goyf and Finks, to survive until Deed/Knight/Elspeth and go from there. I see BoP spot as Elspeth in my list, thats why i cant justify birds, sorry :)

Also I`m not a fan of Pernicious Deed if you playing no recursion over witness and not much real fatties, which can survive your own deed.
Sure, if you want to play more controlish build, dont run Ritual, simple :) But i wouldnt run control without deed. And you seem to play too many low cmc creatures to really play "control" style. I would at least drop confidants and birds.
I guess you are referring to "fatty" as to creature with cmc higher then the desirable X on deed you want to cast. I would only cast Goyfs and Finks before my deed, as i see them defending me just fine until Elspeth and Knights mop up. Low cmc of said finishers does not make them bad finishers, the only bad thing is that you cant deploy them in face of Deed.

But in an agressiv G/B Build i would run it.
Consider this http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27943 decklist.
Sure, it plays and looks (kinda) like Eva Green, but its not. Its as rocky as it needs to be and has some strengths over Evas.
While Ritual may seem underwhelming in some situations (i know, its the opposite of what Witness and friends in Rock are all about), you can save it to punch trough something big a turn (or two) later. It will never go hand in hand with Knight, but both cards are pretty broken on their own, so this isnt much of an argument.
Also, i see the knight as "finisher" you mentioned. No need to feed it to deed, just drop it right after. You could also try and squeeze Stronghold in there and have more options. If you don't like Scullers, you could try Nighthawks. Not as good as Finks, but still good imo.
With Hymn, Toughtseize, Sculler and LD package you *actually* have a fighting chance against combo pre-board. Not a high chance, mind you, but higher than in "Land, Bird, go" situation.

throst54

04-29-2010, 11:53 PM

Eva green is all about sui tempo, and that deck isnt too much of either.

Goyf is good in rock because it gives you a clock, often times before goyf you could have complete control of the game and then loose because they were able to recover faster than you could find your win condition and have it go all the way.

I moved away from Birds a long time ago, they arent bad but they are too conditional for me. Its either Sakura Tribe-Elder or Veteran Explorer for me.

AggroSteve

04-30-2010, 08:29 PM

i can just agree with throst54 on the bird-thing, i played them for a while, played sakura tribe elder as well, though i liked the elders more, they were all cut from my list, and right now i'm fine with 22 länds and low-cost beaters (though i still havent got 4 goyfs, **if someone knows where to get cheap ones please tell me**)
actually due to the lack of the whole playset of goyf i often lacked a good clock, but i think 7 creatures as a clock should be enough........ to make the lack of goyfs more acceptable i'm playing 2 swords of light and shadow (which are quite good to recover from a deed), to be able to make all the creatures i have a clock, and protect them from the most common removal

but i think i'll cut the swords and the singleton duress(only got 3 thoughtsieze) so i would have a 6 targeted discard-package, to improve the combo-matchup a bit

AggroSteve

05-10-2010, 07:30 AM

everyone died on this thread? its quite some time now since last time anybody wrote something

so i'll start with the writing again, has anyone tested now if inquisition of kozilek could really replace thoughsieze, or is it just supbar in comparison to it?

and di someone test the stoneforge mystic package with jitte and sword of fire and ice and sword of light and shadow?

publius_aelius

05-10-2010, 08:46 AM

@ Aggrosteve

I'm still alive. :) I haven't tested Stoneforge, but I did test Inquisition at a small tournament (21 players) a couple of days ago. Decklist looked like this:

23 LANDS:
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Treetop Village
1 Wasteland
3 Forest
3 Plains
1 Swamp

19 CREATURES:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Knight of Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks

7 DISRUPTION
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy

11 REMOVAL
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

15 SIDEBOARD:
3 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Crime/Punishment
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Ghostly Prison

I went 3-2. I lost to UB Reanimator (tournament winner) and Dredge (finished 3rd). Both losses were 1:2 after severe misplays -e.g. I Extirpated Troll instead of Bridge from Below because I didn't look at his graveyard properly.

Inqisition proved to be an excellent choice. Every time I played it, opponents were hard pressed. For instance, in R1 a guy had to play force of will (paid for with Daze) in order to prevent me from discarding his Nimble Mongoose.

Conclusions I made after the tournament were:

Canadien ******** is a bye for this deck. It can't hope to win.
Reanimator and Dredge are 30/70 but can be beaten with accurate play.
Goblins are 50/50 with chances in our favour after SB.
Rogue MBC-s are very difficult to play against, but can be beaten with accurate play post-sideboard.
Inquisition of Kozilek is an adequate alternative for Thoughtsieze. I completely don't care about FoW. It will get discarded with therapy eventually or one of my spells will be exchanged for 2 of his.

damionblackgear

05-10-2010, 11:31 AM

*breathes* I played against a guy in Atlanta with the mystic package. It was cool but it didn't seem to do anything important to me. I asked him what he thought of it and he said that Fire/Ice wasn't that good in his matches and wanted another light and shadow instead. I didn't ask what he played though.

Personally, I'm not convinced on the Swords. They seem clunky and more intense than they're worth for us. Jitte is a possibility of that for Aggro Rock. I personally don't think it's enough though.

-----

aelius - Where there times you wanted to grab something else that Inquisition couldn't grab?

brianw712

05-10-2010, 01:27 PM

@AggroSteve: I'm currently testing the Stoneforge Mystic package in this build:

Lands (23):

3 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland

Creatures (13):

3 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Disruption (8):

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

Removal (11):

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Smallpox

Miscellaneous (5):

2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sensei's Divining Top

So far the Jitte package has been amazing, it definitely shores up the tribal matchup. Like damionblackgear, I feel the Swords don't deserve a spot, Jitte is almost always better.

zalachan

05-10-2010, 03:28 PM

I guess we can just say GG to most noninteractive decks out there, like Reanimator, Belcher, ANT and Dredge most of the time.
Of all the rest, we can have decent game against aggro and maybe sometimes against control /w combo. Pure control seems bad mathup (like MBC control/aggro whatever jank im facing), but it is not like it's reallly viable at the moment. The way midrange always worked- crushed aggro, struggled against control (resolved CB/FoF anyone?) and died like shit against combo. Except that we don't always crush aggro now.
So i guess it's a metagame deck, if you expect a lot of little men coming your way, like Zoo and tribal.

@Jitte /w Stoneforger: i tried 2/1 split and it was meh. But i guess it's still better than 3/0 split..
Anyone had any sucess building something remotely playable in a meta full of Reanimator/CB decks?
@Bojuka Bog MD: i think its bad. If i get time to actually play the Knight, then i think im in pretty good shape.
@brianw712: how has been Smallpox/Engineered Explosives main? I play Vindicate/Pulse ATM and i don't really like them. Is Smallpox pulling it's weight in UB Reanimator or is it just good on paper but meh otherwise? What about other matchups?

brianw712

05-10-2010, 03:41 PM

Smallpox I think is amazing, it actually does work well against Reanimator since you have Hymn and Thoughtseize to strip them of their counters and Top and Confidant to find Smallpox. Obviously Reanimator still isn't an easy matchup by any means. In my tests, for some reason, people keep naming black with Iona before they even see Smallpox=/. And then I see like three Smallpoxes on the top of my library with Top and can't find a Swords. But anyway, it's always good to know that you have outs in your deck. As an additional bonus, Smallpox kills Progenitus.

I've also found it amazing against decks like Bant Survival or CounterTop Bant, which rely on Noble Hierarch. Turn two Smallpox on a turn one Hierarch is pretty crushing for them. I've found that the only way that a midrange deck like Rock can beat a deck with so much card advantage like Survival is to keep them off of their mana. It's also not dead against decks like Zoo, where two mana removal is still decent.

Engineered Explosives has been OK, I haven't tested much after I put in the Stoneforge Mystic package so maybe I now have too many 2cc permanents for explosives. I thought about Vindicate, but I feel like it would be too slow. I want to limit the number of 3cc+ cards in the deck, especially since I'm running 4 Smallpox.

damionblackgear

05-11-2010, 02:23 AM

I guess we can just say GG to most noninteractive decks out there, like Reanimator, Belcher, ANT and Dredge most of the time.

Why? Drop Swords and let them fight Knight and Edict. Dredge isn't as popular since Lands and Reanimator rekindled the Graveyard hate boards. An active Knight beats Reanimator and if they name white you edict.

zalachan

05-11-2010, 07:07 AM

Why? Drop Swords and let them fight Knight and Edict. Dredge isn't as popular since Lands and Reanimator rekindled the Graveyard hate boards. An active Knight beats Reanimator and if they name white you edict.

Yes, but Knight needs to hit the table first. It's not like Reanimator is slow or something, many times Mystical just owns your permission plan and then you are in a word of pain.

Knight is good if its online to fetch Karakas, yes. And "maybe" to fetch bog, but i just don't like that plan. Getting Knight on the table would require me to play BoP/Hierarch, and i'm not a fan of manamen in my rock anymore.

Its not like you have many options if Iona resolves on White (StP, Vindicate, Knight off), and finding/resolving Edict may be just as challenging as them finding Toughtseize/FoW/SP f. And i'm still on the verge if I should play Edict MD.. Smallpox on the other hand.. hmm.

damionblackgear

05-11-2010, 10:21 AM

Yes, but Knight needs to hit the table first. It's not like Reanimator is slow or something, many times Mystical just owns your permission plan and then you are in a word of pain.

Yes, if Iona names white, she's gotta be on-board already. That's why I'm promoting cutting swords for edict. As far as force goes, you have hand disruption as well, your chances improve. I have a Bog in the board but it's been on the chopping block. And the 0/1's, we're in the same boat but, I do have exploration.

Edict or Pox? I'm a fan of easier to cast. I like being able to grab fetches turns 1, 2, and 3 to have all basics. Personal choices though.

brianw712

05-11-2010, 01:38 PM

damionblackgear

05-11-2010, 06:27 PM

Cutting swords? Nooooo, I think that's a really bad idea. Edict is only really better than Swords against Reanimator, and maybe Pro Bant, and maybe Canadian Thresh. Merfolk? They sac a Cursecatcher instead of their Reejery. Goblins? Siege-gang tokens instead of the commander itself. Bant? They sac that Noble Hierarch instead of the Rhox War Monk you desperately need to get rid of. There are enough creatures played in Legacy that there will often be more than one on the opponent's side of the table at once, and Swords is so much more versatile than Edict in those situations. The life-gain is not all that relevant, since Rock I see as more of a control deck against most decks in the format than as an aggro deck. And the difference between two mana and one mana is very, very relevant. Turn one swords a Nacatl turn two Hymn is so much better than having to use your mana on turn two for an Edict. Not to mention it's more easily Dazed (or at least makes the other spells you cast that turn more easily Dazed). If you really want to have enough tools to fight Reanimator, I would either just run Edicts/Smallpoxes in the board, or run both Swords and Edicts/Smallpoxes main. But either way, I consider Swords to Plowshares a must.

Why does everyone think it's terrible to remove swords? It's not that big a deal. I 6-2'd ATL without swords and lost to a lands deck (mulled to 5 game 3 and couldn't force the draw on the last of the 5 turns) and enchantress with main-decked blood-moons (I was not expecting that). EVERYONE else was crushed, including Pro-Bant and Merfolk (how do you lose this match?!). Swords is good but it's not going to make you lose. In both those matches swords were irrelevant.

Also, On swords side, the life is important. Burn decks hurt. but that's another story entirely.

sdematt

05-11-2010, 11:02 PM

Nice showing, Damion! Mind posting the list you went to Atlanta with, and what decks you ended up facing? (A short tourney report would be cool just so we can see where the deck is lagging, and where it's not).

-Matt

brianw712

05-11-2010, 11:29 PM

@damion:

Yes, I too would like to see your list. I don't know how a list without Swords could consistently beat Merfolk, since Stifle/Waste hurts a lot, and Edicts can't reliably get rid of Sovereigns/Reejeries/the new Coralhelm Commanders that can swing past your guys. Pro Bant is also not necessarily a good matchup, a Progenitus with CounterTop backup pretty much nullifies Edict.

And you're right that the Swords life gain is relevant against burn/Zoo, but that just gives another reason to run it instead of Edict.

kinda

05-12-2010, 03:33 AM

I've done a little bit of testing with a terrageddon build...seems decent. You have the horizon canopy/crucible engine which is a lock with solitary confinement.

4 savannah
4 windswept heath
4 wasteland
4 horizon canopy
3 marsh flats
2 scrubland
1 bayou
1 forest
1 plains

4 knight of the reliquary
4 tarmo
3 terravore

2 solitary confinement
4 cataclysm
4 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek
4 swords to plowshares
4 crucible of worlds
4 mox diamond

AggroSteve

05-12-2010, 09:27 AM

sorry but i think you are in the wrong thread (but i have to say i like your build kinda)

either way, lately i was quite unsatisfied with my confidants (i play only 3), lately i havent been drawing any of them, and i noticed that most of the time i would have wanted a utility creature more often than to draw into a confidant, wouldn't it be an idea to cut confidants completely in favor of stoneforge with all 3 equipments, since it would also improve some matchups, specially since lately again i'm losing a lot against goblins, and the only games i win against them is when i got a thoughtsieze to take their vial or their biggest thread in hand, in that case i do not even have to worry about lackeys

right now i'm considering to cut my 3 confidants completely, cut 1 of 3 witnesses, play a 3/3 split thoughtsieze and inquisition, and add the stoneforge mystic package, since with stoneforge i get cardadvantage immideatly, and the swords i pick can protect my guys from removal. most of the time confidant was just in to lure out one of my opponents removals (which is good no doubt about that)

gosh, i'm right now quite not satisfied with my list, probably cause of this i'm thinking of changes
and me too would like to see the list with the edicts instead of the swords, i was wondering if some magor changes were made to the list, or were the swords just replaced with edicts

damionblackgear

05-12-2010, 01:07 PM

I took this from my Facebook wall since I don't remember a lot of it. I took the names of people I played out. The last round was terribly played. I'll pm the list to you both as I don't feel like getting flamed again yet.

Round 1 vs rock... :D. Game 1 I Armageddon when he's tapped and have a Knight in play... and a crucible... and an exploration... Yeah.
Game 2 I keep 5 land Bob and seize.. I don't know why. It just seemed fun... Until he Thoughtseized me turn 1. *Turns Timmy mode off*
Game 3 I keep 3 land, goyf Bob seize vindicate... yup...

1-0

Round 2 vs Zoo: Game 1 I stabilized at 3... wishing for that stadium I cut the whole time? But I got Armageddon instead... knights finish.
Game 2 he curves and I get priced for 12 (him for 8)
Game 3 I drop all 8 (top included) on the second turn and top sees the Baneslayer... get there much?

2-0

Round 3 vs 43Lands: game 1 I mull to 6 he plays exploration into loam. I thoughtseize a manabond and draw dead.
Game 2 I mull to 6 and keep a 2 land leyline Bob goyf hand... I draw 2 lands and Armageddon *he had put me on an awkward build of lands.
Game 3, from the mull to 5,I keep a hand that is Bob top fetches and a basic. After solving Meloku, his tokens, a wastelock, & his graveyard once, we go to time. He gets dark depths and hexmage and is finally able to get it out on turn 4 after time. I have no answer since he ported Karakas and wasted the Kor Haven. I knew I was aiming for the draw after I solved the Meloku but I'm not a slow player. If I was, we would've gone to time.
2-1

Round 4 vs pro-bant: game 1 I open with 2 lands an exploration crucible lock and vindicates. .. don't draw land after I'm for sure dead. So I bait him into thinking I'm another deck and play the crucible.
Game 2 he bit and goyfs and BBSAget there.
Game 3 I get a wastelock and see tabernacle...
May 2 at 1:35pm ·

Round 5 merfolk. (if you're looking for a tournament report... I don't write them for this match. They need bob to win) I loved this match. My opponent was so much fun. I sent him the list afterwards. I wish all my opponents could be like this guy.
May 2 at 2:36pm ·

Round 6 enchantress w/moons mained!: game 1... you see the exclamation point? Left field... pants down bend over and prep for insertion... I was fetching duals cause I though I was safe.
Game 2 Armageddon gets there when you have 2 goyf.
Game 3 he sandbags 2 lands as I Armageddon. The 3 enchantments in play and the second land cast replenish... which also got the moon I had just deeded the turn before. I had 2 basics but no swamp... 2 vindicates in hand... then he played karmic justice and I was done for.

X-2

Round 7 vs 43 lands: game 1, since I had just bit it to moon, I fetched out basics played Bob and Knight... Bob flipped Armageddon. ..
Game 2 Knight shows up again. He starts to really recover and as he casts life I fetched bog. Win.
X-2

Round 8 vs Aggro rock/hybrid Eva green/dead Guy ale: Both games we did stupid things (I armageddoned dropped 2 lands and had active Knight but neglected to fetch tabernacle which was awkward) and I won. It wasn't glitzy but it happened the hard way... end results x-2.

kinda

05-12-2010, 01:57 PM

damionblackgear

05-12-2010, 02:38 PM

Baneslayer is a 5/5 lifelinker with evasion and a built-in combat trick, additionally she's Pro demon (which usually isn't relivant) but Tomb stalker can be pumped by a hierarch.

Vore can die to graveyard removal. and can't be played all that well against gobs. Knight, on the other hand, has more synergy with the deck as a whole. The downside is that you're giving up 1/2 of the power but, she's a more consistent beater and able to be utility against the field. A land toolbox is solid.

To be honest the only slot I really saw to try and fit a Vore in was in place of Goyf... and that wasn't going to happen anytime soon.

sdematt

05-12-2010, 09:15 PM

The list you sent me seems interesting, not your traditional rock list, but more of a New Horizons/Rock cross-breed. I love Exploration and Crucible to death, and am playing them in an Eternal Garden-esque deck, but with Terravores and Knights. I'll definitely give your build a try, though. Seems solid.

I was hoping though that your list would give me insight into how I could improve my list, but it was off in a completely different direction, so no DIRECT help there :P

I'll post it hopefully later today or tomorrow and we can work on it. I posted an old list a while back, but I'll post my comments and what I was aiming for.

Again Damion, good showing!

Regards,

Matt

sdematt

05-12-2010, 09:15 PM

Bah, I lagged out horribly and it accidentally double posted. Sorry!

-Matt

kinda

05-12-2010, 09:32 PM

damionblackgear

05-13-2010, 01:51 AM

I can't tell if you're serious...

I'm sorry, You'll have to explain the issue a little more if you want me to be able to understand what you would like me to explain further. I am serious though.

----

The list you sent me seems interesting, not your traditional rock list, but more of a New Horizons/Rock cross-breed.

makes sense why I'm hesitant about posting the list. I like to think of it more as 43-lands meets Stax meets Rock. It functions as all of those decks as well. Extremely awkward to pilot or play against. Looking forward to helping with your list though. Just because mine isn't normal doesn't mean it didn't start that way.

sdematt

05-13-2010, 12:41 PM

Damion, I really like the direction you're taking the deck. I was actually building a deck basically "Land Stax", involving the usual brutality of Stax, alongside a small land toolbox like Lands. Problem being, it worked exceedingly well against some decks, but died to both Stax and Lands hate.

I would still say post your list, because I can see where you're coming from with each of your choices. I don't necessarily agree with some choices, but if you made 6-2 in Atlanta, then I guess you're doing something right :D

I mean, personally, I'd cut some Edicts for Swords, because I really love Swords too much to not have it in a white deck, but all in all, I think you addressed several key problems with modern rock with your interesting decklist.

Number 1: Speed. I've been playing Rock off and on since 02, and the Rock isn't a fast deck. Problem being, Legacy is now a fast meta. Birds and Sakura tribe elder I'm finding are dying to deeds, or randomly getting hosed, so no real acceleration happens. Even if the do stay on the table, I'm finding them sub-par. Your inclusion of Exploration speeds the deck up a bunch, and is also a huge Jedi Mind Trick if I ever saw one :D

Number 2: Life. Honestly, I haven't won a game versus Zoo in a while. Usually, I blow their crap up, then I just get burned the hell out for the last 12 points. The inclusion of a Baneslayer seems good, not only for life, but just for changing the gap that usually occurs in life totals with Rock. It turns the gap around and makes Price of Progress (I still see it in Zoo locally) a lot less enticing to play. Personally, I'd play a 2/2 split of Tombstalker and Baneslayer, but again, personal choice.

I've been finding Rock can deal with goblins. I've had no trouble with Gobbos, but more with Merfolk. It could be locally the Fish players are better, but I've honestly found that I can't land a deed, or a Vindicate to save my life. Moreover, I just get Wastelanded and beat upon by several fish. It really hurts. Plague is never usually enough to hurt them, since they play infinite Lords.

Damion, I'd definitely say post the list, as it warrants discussion. I'd like to pick apart your list constructively for everyone to see, since I really love what you're doing.

Now, on to my list after a brief explanation. I built this back a few years ago when Countertop was the dominating force. It runs at primarily a 3 CMC curve to dodge the Counterbalance decks of old that h ad 0-2 "3 CMC" drops. The deck worked fine then, but now as the meta has changed and progressed, the deck is running a bit slow. I've won tournaments with it recently, but I've had rather bad matchups against Storm (no surprise there), Zoo/Burn, and Merfolk. I understand some of the decks previously listed are the bad matchups, but I'd just like to see if we can shore up some of these weaknesses.

3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tomstalker
2 Eternal Witness

4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
3 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volrath's Stronghold

I'd be glad to hear some constructive criticism, and I'd love for you to try it on workstation. It's not a terrible deck as is, and I'd be happy to explain any choices.

-Matt

AggroSteve

05-13-2010, 06:54 PM

i really like the previous list, it answers some questions i had about my own build, what i find extremely intresting is that you used phyrexian arena instead of confidant
the whole deck is quite heavily on boardcontrol, discard, and simply big fat beats, maybe it would not be that bad of an idea to take this list and adapt it to metas of these days (but i for my part would never want to be missing kitchen finks and divining top in my list)

as of lately i thought of cutting confidant from my list in favor of inquisition of kozilek, or pridemage, or stoneforge mystic with equipment package, i have grown more and more dissatisfied with confidant, and i have noticed i was even often shuffling him away if i saw him on top of my library with top, i think confidant does no longer serve the right purposes for me at least
the rock was always a deck with answers to everything, confidant provides card advantage if he sticks(which rarely happens), but just for example divining top with shuffling effects and a lot of mana gives you just the cards you need

as for me, i will probably cut confidant, and search for a more "multitasking" card to replace him

otherwise i was thinking to run recurring nightmare as a 2 of, to abuse the hell out of kitchen finks and witnesses

sdematt

05-14-2010, 12:29 AM

I dropped Dark Confidant for a few reasons. First and foremost, I don't own any anymore, and second, I found with a curve average on 3, I was taking huge hits off Confidant, especially if I flip Tombstalker, or Lord of Extinction when I was playing him.

Recurring Nightmare is great in the deck, but I've found it only becomes abusive in the late game. This is totally fine of course, so have fun doing your ridiculous shenanigans :D

-Matt

damionblackgear

05-14-2010, 02:27 AM

Matt,

are you having issues with Wastelands or Moons? I'll assume that you have grips in the board to help but is that enough?

* I don't have to post my list. Starcitygames did it for me... :(

AggroSteve

05-14-2010, 07:55 AM

thanks matt for the reply, confidant being to risky was also one of my worries, i only wanted him with divining top, and i ended up shuffling him away with the next fetch if i saw him on top of my library (funny)

if i would now run recurring nightmare, what changes would you suggerst? run inquisition of kozilek with cabal theraphy as discard, or include shriekmaw and nightmare, or something completely different?

sdematt

05-14-2010, 08:28 PM

I do have a bit of an issue with Wasteland, mostly in the first 2 turns of the game. If I don't draw land and I get stuck on 2, it really starts to hurt. I'll be honest, I don't see a ton of Blood Moon in my Meta, but with 3 basics, I am able to beat Imperial Painter (so long as I fetch for basics, of course).

Link us to the post on SCG, Damion!

Personally, the sideboard I'm running for my inbred meta is:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague

I've done quite well against the matches I see most often: Dredge, Goblins, Bant, etc. I really should have Grips in the board, but every time I play, I never really end up needing them, or it's just insult to injury (ex. Stax).

@ Aggrosteve:

If I were running Recurring Nightmare, I'd personally break the list down to square one and start again. It really depends if you're going to base the deck around Recurring Nightmare, or if you're just going to add it as a 1 or 2-of for inevitability near the late game. If you were running Nightmare, I'd probably run something like:

Shriekmaw
Kitchen Finks
Eternal Witness

and then of course your fatties: Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, KoTR, etc. Nice thing with Nightmare is you could also run a 1-of Deranged Hermit. 1) For food to feed your Nightmare, and b) Recurring that bastard several times is really fun, and is good. Personally, I've never been a fan of Cabal Therapy. It just seems really conditional. I mean, if you were playing it with, say, Bloodghast, then maybe, but even with Recurring Nightmare, you'll be sacing creatures, even if you get them back, naming random stuff you hope he has in hand. I'm more a fan of targeted discard, along with Hymn. If you wanted to run Thoughtseize or Inquisition, try a 3/3 split. You don't get horribly hosed by the life-loss of the Seize, but you're also getting a baby Seize out of it with Inquisition. I've tried Inquisition and think it's a lovely card, since it takes most things (everything in Gobbos minus Commander, everything in Merfolk, Goyf, Teeg, Clique, etc.etc.etc.) It just grabs so many annoying creatures that Duress doesn't catch. Also, with the split, you still get to pick out your Smokestacks and Force of Wills, just slightly less often.

Alright, well, I figured since the actual list is out, I might as well critique the living crap out of your list Damion, or shall I say, Ian...

First of all, congratulations of making the Top 20 of the SCG Atlanta Open. That's an awesome feat, with Rock no less.

The link is here, if you don't mind me posting Ian: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32571

and for those of you that are too lazy to click the link, seriously guys:

GWB Rock by Ian Ellis

Maindeck:

Artifacts
2 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
1 Baneslayer Angel
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
3 Exploration
2 Pernicious Deed

Instants
3 Diabolic Edict

Sorceries
2 Armageddon
1 Primal Command
1 Ravages Of War
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Basic Lands
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas
1 Kor Haven
1 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale

Sideboard:
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Choke
4 Leyline Of The Void
1 Bojuka Bog

First of all, as in the post I did a few days ago, a few of you may have noticed the inconsistencies with the deck as of late: lack of initial, continual steam, and of course, life. Ian seems to have dealt with this via Baneslayer Angel, Kor Haven, and Exploration/Crucible of Worlds. But, there's a few choices I don't understand.

a) Why Diabolic Edict? For random crap like Mongoose, Progenitus, and the like? Did you ever feel like they just sacced their crap creature to your Edict? Personally, I feel like I miss Swords for this slot. I'm so used to picking this tool for this job, and here, it feels like I've been given a shovel to assassinate the President. It can be done, but it just feels really awkward.

b) I'm digging Exploration/Crucible. As I said before, I'm running a deck with the main engine being Exploration/Crucible (it's an Eternal Garden/New Horizons cross) and the engine itself is so versatile. Good on you for putting this in here. I'd personally love another Crucible for a 3/3 split, but I'm not sure what to cut. But all around, very stellar.

c) The low curve and the addition of Top allows you to cheat with Dark Confidant. I love it. Only problem being, 3 four drops, and a 5 drop make the non-Top application of Confidant seem dicey to me. If I were going to build this, I might stick some Arenas here. I find Confidant gets removed fast, and people don't pack a ton of art/enchantment removal in the Main.

d) 2 Deeds seems weird to me. It could be I'm so used to having 7 deeds (4 deed, 3 witness) in the same deck, so maybe this is just a preference issue. Any deck with deed is good in my books.

e) If you play Crucible, why not play Armageddon and screw over your opponent? My thoughts exactly. But again, I'd run 3 Crucibles. I'm digging the Ravages, but sadly, I cannot afford. Question for you Ian: do you have an English one?

f) Why the Primal Command? I understand last ditch life or creature search, but what have you been using the most out of its abilities? The card choice itself is very intriguing, and I'd love some explanation. Seems randomly good.

g) To me, it seems like you're running very few actual mana producing lands (what, 10?). I'm just so used to running a bajillion mana producing lands, how are you finding it? Having that many fetches seems good with KoTR, and for searching out the colour you want, but it seems like you could run out of lands to fetch (maybe).

h) Your toolkit land choice seems good. I'd opt for a Stronghold maybe, but your list seems strong as it. How often do you find yourself Wasteland-ing without a Crucible on board?

i) Sideboard seems solid. Thorn for Combo, Finks (for Zoo?), Dredge hate, and blue hate. Me likey. How often do you find yourself successfully landing Choke against a blue deck?

All in all, very good list. I'm not sure if this is the direction all Rock decks should take, but I find it very interesting. We should all talk about this. Also, I've noticed that it basically seems like there's 3-4 people posting on this thread: myself, damion, AggroSteve, and some other guy. Weird....

-Matt

zalachan

05-15-2010, 05:02 AM

Congratz on the finish, damion!

I really like that list. Expecially Exploration/Crucible/Armageddon seem savage. I also dig Primal Command+Baneslayer tech against aggro.. should really bring your life up a notch..

So, what's with those Edicts? I personally still don't like them, but since they obviously did their job well for you, maybe you can tell us how useful it really is atm.

The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale. I like that one. Can you tell me, what this slot would be, if you had some kind of budgetary restraints (ie. we have only a couple of those in our coutry, so it's out of my reach). I kinda know it's not replaceable, so sad. :(

No recursion plan? Well, seems like you fear less that your opponent will bring GY hate in against you, since you only run Crucible as GY recursion. I found out that recursion tools are a tad slow atm and that sometimes those pieces just slow my hand so much and that they often have that "just in case" factor. And then they bring all that GY hate in against you and it starts to get nasty.

AggroSteve

05-15-2010, 07:54 AM

i have to say, the list previosly posted seems to me like a mixture of the rock and a terrageddon list i've recently seen, which played 3 crucibles 2 armageddon an 4 cataclysm, and as a lock piece solitary confinement with horizon canopy, i think that list was even posted in this thread

i have to say the exploration seems quite intresting, but the dissynergie with deed disturbs me, also (could be due to my playstyle) i think there should be more deeds, i just like deed ^^, but i don't know what to do with primal command, sure it gets you baneslayer, and occasionally helps otherwise as well, but i don't see it to be all that usefull

i like kor heaven, but i have to say that i miss stronghold, and tabernacle with armageddon is so freaking good^^

@ Matt
to my list now, thanks for the suggestions, i think we thought just the same way, i think targeted discard is the best, even though i have to say that cabal theraphy is quite funny, but occasionally as you said, to efficiantly hit something you've got to have luck or a creature to sac, and in a rockbuild without birds or hierarch as mine the theraphys are not effective enough
so i'll probably will be trying a 3/3 split as you suggested, which was also my thought of inquisition an sieze, anf further on to try out nightmare i'll do probably like this

3x shriekmaw (replacing my confidants)
4x kitchen finks
3x witness
2x recurring nightmare (replacing the in my eyes subpar nighthawks in my list)

like this my list will be quite more likely to be controllish with total of 6 tarteted discard and a total of 11 spot removals(including shriekmaw) and 3 deed

i also would be intrested in how you managed to consistantly beat goblins, as of lately i began to have troubles against them again, though i also haven't got any dedicated sideboardslot right now for this matchup, because it's become rare

sdematt

05-15-2010, 10:38 AM

Sure, I'll give you a matchup analysis/further decklists later today. Going to test some Legacy for SCG Open in Seattle :D

-Matt

sdematt

05-15-2010, 01:45 PM

Alright, it is later :D

The way to beat Goblins is simple, but effective. I'm assuming we're playing against mono red with Lackey, Instigator, Matron, Piledriver, Commander, Chieftain, Ringleader, Incinerator, and possibly Stingscourger. You have to keep a reasonable hand against the matchup: You need a turn 1 play. If going first, keep a hand with Thoughtseize/Inquisition, and a second turn play (hopefully Tarmogoyf). Even a hand with thoughtseize, with 2nd turn Hymn is great. Or, Swords. Usually, most Goblins players keep a hand with Lackey, and a decent number of goblins with 2 lands. If you can kill their first turn play, ie. Lackey, you can usually build up enough steam to control the board. Obviously, if you let a lackey drop a Siege Gang Commander, well, it's an uphill battle.

If they drop Vial first turn, you're in better shape, as you don't have to have a first turn Swords on the ready. You can drop a land and pass. They'll counter up, and drop a creature (Piledriver/Instigator). Depending on if you went second, hopefully you can either kill it, or put up a blocker. By the third turn, if they don't have to much on board, you've usually won. It's the first three turns that are critical in the game. If you heavily disrupt their gameplan by taking out Lackey/Piledriver/Instigator, they have more of an uphill battle. On third turn, you can drop Knight, Vindicate their Vial/creature/land, Pulse something. I would suggest laying the Deed on turn 3 unless they're building up steam on turn 3 (ex. Matron + Vial onboard). Here, you basically need to Deed to get rid of their Matron/other crap, but they'll usually Vial in reponse. Always try to bait out the Vial by discard, so you can hit whatever they put into play with some other spell.

I have lost games against Goblins before, don't get me wrong. It really depends on the hand you keep, and if they're hand is truly spicy or not. Most Goblins players can get there on an OK hand, so they wont necessarily mull into a ridiculous hand. In this matchup, you need a hand of at least 2 lands (hopefully 3-4, they play Wasteland, but I find most of the time they're mana hungry anyway), a turn one play (hoping for Swords, but targeted discard is swell as well) and hopefully a turn 2 play. If you can play something in each of the turns on the first three, you can usually stall their plan enough to land a fatty/backbreaker (example: Landing a Goyf, then an Arena. You can usually beat them with the amount of card advantage that you get.)

In the board against Gobbos, you need to side in Needles, and Engineered Plagues. What do you take out? Depending on the build, you can usually sacrifice something like Tombstalker, or something that's going to come out slow. I wouldn't board out Vindicates, but taking out a single Hymn, or a Deed isn't backbreaking. In the postboard games, they'll bring in Needle against Deed most likely, but there's not a ton else they can do. Here, you have to play with the same gameplan, and hopefully in the first half of the game land your Plague. If you can successfully keep a Lord off the table and land a Plague, you're basically golden as you can remove the Lords that they play. Then, you just wait to go into a second Plague, in which you win the game. Again, it's all about really shuffling well between games, taking out the stuff that's designed for the long haul, and hopefully opening up a hand that involves decent plays early game.

Hopefully this helped a bit when playing Goblins. I'd definitely say practice playing against them though, they're a good deck.

I'll try and come up with a Recurring Nightmare build today as a trial to help you out.

Any suggestions for me on the decklist I posted earlier? Any suggestions would be cool.

-Matt

AggroSteve

05-15-2010, 02:38 PM

well, i think cataclysm might be a better choice than armageddon and ravages, since most of the time you will have just one creature an be on the control part, plus you've got the explorations and crucibles, so a cataclysm will have only a small effect on you and you do not necessarily need tabernacle to clean the board, i think of this card as good against aggro and control, in your build specially against aggro as well if you land an early exploration, and against control its a backbreaking think thats for sure

i would probably play more horizon canopys, since its always a cantrip, and if you've got crucible out it just generates a lot of card advantage, its practicly a drawengine, allmost as effective as the one aggro loam builds have
in fact i'm still searching vor something likely for my rock build, and confidant is not the thing i want, neither i want to use crucibles, even if they are a wonderful card, and loam does not fit in either

well on paper it looks good, that aside i'm not sold on some choices, like only 2 deeds, the edicts over swords just disturbs me, primal command seams a little wierd, and i simply do not like baneslayer even if he's good

somehow i'm just to used to have at least 3 deeds and 3 witnesses, and my heart just cant take the thought of cutting any of them :P

damionblackgear

05-16-2010, 08:48 AM

After 2 days (went to the Nats Qualifier Yesterday) and a lot of time in front of my computer I finally got all the questions done. Here there are.

Umn... I'll start with the comments on your deck Matt :wink:

Those first few turns of the game are key. Not doing anything there can mean that your opponent is doing something without worry. I would suggest enough basics to cast your spells if there was a moon out as a general rule of thumb. That way, even if they do play wastelands, you can at least get the colors you need and not worry about them.

How's the Needle been in board. I found that it tended to be a bit slower against goblins than I actually wanted it to be. I know that the match is about making them operate at our speed but, when they have lackey and sometimes instigator, it seems pointless.

I would ask about the Leyline and Wheel but graveyard hate is the coin of the realm right now. I have 5 in my board so I understand. I'm a little skeptical on Wheel but you already have the the makings to slow them to turn 2.

-----

Ok, on to the questions and comments.

@ Matt’s

Ok, On to the monster list of questions (I'm gonna hit the questions from the both of you).

A) There are 2 creatures now in the format that Swords CAN'T hit. Those are Progenitus, and Emrakul. Those 2 are serious threats if they come in. Yes, Emrakul is more sensitive than Progenitus but, when there are only 2 ways to solve him (Active Knight and Karakas) you really want a bit more. An early of either of these can easily be the end of that game. So you have to weigh what the chances are either one is in your meta and judge if you want to have to race either of these (That's usually not a good idea).

Additionally, Goblins is the only match where swords counts as a turn 1 need. Fortunetly for us, while the deck is popular, it's only one deck. You will play it and, without swords, it garuntees that you're doing it the hard way but, Rock is used to that. Most of our matches are, "The hard way" so I didn't feel that the loyalty to Swords was really necessary. As much as we talk about the goblins 'God Draw', no deck can really stop that. Otherwise it wasn't the 'God Draw'.

Lastly, Most of legacy now is either creatureless, or plays at an almost fair speed for edict to be effective. Many times you are playing you are actually choosing what get's edicted just by playing it. There are some matches where you don't get that option (i.e. Goblins, Merfolk, Death and Taxes, *insert random aggro deck*) but you're still accomplishing the goal. You can clean up the rest with what I would hope is the one or so other creatures on your side.

B) I was wondering for a while about this but I had the same issue you had, "Where?" Eventually I realized that there are tons of times that I'm casting either one without the other. Sometimes, you just want to use the spell (BURN!!!!!!!!!!). They've actually been in the deck for a long time now, but the count has never changed (tested but not changed).

C) I chose Bob because he's only a single black. The ability to cast him early without the need of a dual to stay on color was key for me. In choosing him I also took his risks, and he has 18'd me in a game (Slayer, Slayer, Geddon, Geddon.. Older version had 2 slayers... I'll explain later). For majority of the games he's way more helpful than hurtful.

For the most part, the deck has 10 fetchable lands and you start with 20 life so the odds are still pretty good that you'll be OK. Mid-Game, if you don't have a top (Knight, Primal command), the probabilities are the against you already and you've done well to survive an Angry Bob and I hope you find that top soon (or just win the game with him, since they're not blocking).

D) I always look at deed when I'm revising the deck (Every time I play it). It's just too strong against random situations to cut. I've noticed that vs most matches they have perminents that cost a lot. Even merfolk decks are running a lot of lords that cost 3. So a majority of the time this is more of a kill switch than removal, but there are those golden moments. And, when you nail the lands player to turn off manabond, you get that warm feeling deep down inside :smile:

All in all, it's a 2 of because it's not that good anymore. It's really mana intense. There are enough times that the 'kill switch' is needed to warrant keeping it in.

Sidenote: First time playing reanimator I won game 1 (with swords main) by deeding Iona off the field.

E) I Wish I had an English one! I have a Chinese Ravages. Most local games I try to make things easier by just announcing it as Armageddon. I've only found one person have an issue with that but the judge sided with me. If I'm playing at Bigger events, I let them know as I cast it (You don't know how many decklists of mine have 3 Armageddon scratched out).

F) That's everyone's biggest question. After Round 8 my opponent asked if he could see my deck for ideas. When he saw the PC he handed it back and said, "I don't know if I can take anything you said seriously anymore now." I couldn't help but laugh. I had just won the match and he had an issue with a card choice that made it that serious!

Either way, Primal command is a relitivly new change to the deck (November of last year). It used to be a second Baneslayer. I decided to change it because it does everything a Baneslayer would do (Yes, even win games) at the same cost. Additionally, Command does other things a Baneslayer doesn't. It's really hard to explain why it's still there. One of those things that when it happens, you know why.

Examples would probably be better.

Aggro-Loam - Placed a land on top of their library and shuffled away all of their Loams... knight fetched a waste as well... He scooped. Terravore wasn't a match for a knight when I'm the only one with a graveyard.

Merfolk - Gained 7 life (8-15) and found Baneslayer (also meant Bob couldn't 5 me)... He took a couple turns but he got the picture.

Lands - Put Manabond on top of his deck and grabbed knight. Next turn cast knight and waste-locked him 2 turns later with double exploration crucible. Sidenote: This is the first time I played against or even heard of 43-lands! He called a judge on me game one when I Armageddon'd... Kinda convenient I had gone that route.

All in all, This card may seem silly, but it's insane when you cast it. The biggest thing is choosing the right time and modes. It's almost like a skill tester.:wink:

And Baneslayer isn’t the normal target. It’s knight. Sometimes Bob.

G) You do, and it has happened. I've fetched myself dry by turn 3 before. It's fun. It means that I can waste all the non-basics and work entirely off of an as-needed basis. Color's haven't really been an issue. My loss to the Merfolk player was because I couldn't find a land. So, Yes. The 10 count on Forest, Plains, and Swamps does hurt sometimes... Just no where near enough.

You also have the non-basics though. Horizon Canopy and Karakas both produce colors.

H) A LOT! Sometimes I just do it because I think it's funny (I'm sure they don't though). the crucible can come later, or not at all. Either way, it's OK.

I) I usually bait the counters out of there hand to cast something. There are so many situations that they can't have come up. Almost everything is the next big threat. Even the crucibles are issues for a lot of decks. It's more a question of, "What do you feel like landing today?"

I've lost 2 Chokes to the yard that weren't intended for the yard that I can recall. one, I had just thoughtseized and he had 2 lands left. Topdecked, Brainstormed, Forced.... Died to Knight + Goyf a couple turns later.

The second I kept drawing lands so I couldn't bait everything out. They landed a counterbalance and then got Waste-locked by the top-decked Crucible...

That took some time to answer.

@ Zalachan’s

Tabernacle does have an alternate. It’s in the deck acting as Deed 3. So if you don’t have access to it you can use a Deed in its place.

You are also correct as to there being no recursion (Primal Command makes sad face) but, there really isn’t as big a need for it as there used to be. We used to play it to try and force a creature past counters but now we can’t do that do to the amount of graveyard hate. So, I felt that there was no need to play something that wasn’t needed.

The slot for the Stronghold went to Kor Haven. And in all honesty, I haven’t looked back. The comparison to the utility of the 2 is easy enough to justify by just saying that your land is a blocking creature. All you need is 2 other lands.

The other fun thing is that without the stronghold, you can just play with their graveyard hate threatening you. It’s not very good when you’ll just get rid of it when it’s convenient. I got a warm fuzzy feeling inside every time someone took the Graveyard hate route and realized that it wasn’t a good idea.

@Steve’s

The dis-synergy between Deed and Exploration does exist, but it’s not as bad as it may seem. Yes, you blow deed, normally you lose your explorations, maybe some other stuff too. If you land (or landed) a crucible, every exploration left in the deck is ‘turned back on’. It’s better than birds in that sense.

I touched on Deed above in Matt’s Questions and made reference to it again as to being replaced by Tabernacle.

The land toolbox was changed a little bit just before the tournament. I used to have a Nomad Stadium in there, and I miss it SO MUCH. It wasn’t that it was the best against everything but when you got the deck ‘online,’ Gaining 8+life whenever you wanted was amazing recovery.

As far as changing for a second canopy, I would say tweak as needed. I’m not a fan of 2. I cut to one out of personal preference.

You’re right though, it’s a mix of decks. I still don’t consider it Rock but, everyone else does now so I’m stuck on that one. I still have never seen a list for Terrageddon though. I probably should since everyone has compared it to that as well but, I always though of this deck as a mix of Stax and Rock.

Right now I’m looking at it as leaving them with a land. The original reason for Armageddon was because it destroyed all their lands (didn’t worry about mine). That meant that they couldn’t top to counterbalance me. Using Cataclysm doesn’t accomplish that. In fact, they’re left with a chump Top, Counterbalance, A chump blocker, and the land to recover faster. Other decks may suffer more but not enough to play Cataclysm. That’s why Death and Taxes cut it.

For everyone who is thinking about playing this, I should warn you all that there is a running joke amongst my friends as I that everyone else will fail with this deck. It’s simply not usable for most people. To do everything you have to know and pay attention to the entire format and be able to adapt on the fly to some of the most awkward situations. It’s got many ‘Modes’ that you have to be able to find a way to shift into at the drop of a hat and change your own play-style on the fly to do. If you can pilot the deck successfully you’ll know what that means.

In the end, it’s super draining mentally. If you’re not seasoned I would suggest getting to know the format before you even attempt this beast.

sdematt

05-16-2010, 10:48 PM

Sorry Ian if I took away your will to type after I made you answer all those questions :tongue:

But, I've found Needle decent in the board. When I get, it's usually back breaking in the matchup, but sometimes, it's really sub-par. It's really good against Lands (Port, Maze,etc) so I can get in there, but you're right, it's slow against Goblins (naming Commander/Vial) or Folk (Mutavault/Vial/Coralhelm Commander). It's also quite good against Painter (it sees play here) + Counter-Top. I may cut it, but right now I'm still going along with it.

Any suggestions on the build, Ian? I'll try and work in some of the changes myself, and then we can compare what we each had in mind.

But, I'll post that Eternal Garden type build I've been playing for a few week to show you what I was talking about:

4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Horn of Greed
4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
2 Armageddon
3 Intuition
1 Realms Uncharted
4 Mox Diamond
1 Life from the Loam

3 Terravore
4 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Maze of Ith
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bayou
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Diamond Valley
1 Tabernacle
2 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
1 Snow Covered Plains
1 Snow Covered Forest
1 Academy Ruins

Board: (rough)
Karakas
Bojuka Bog
Worm Harvest
Tormod's Crypt
Eternal Witness
Boseiju

As you can see, it's a mish-mash of Lands, New Horizons, and Eternal garden. It plays quite well. It's not Rock, but just pointing out the Crucible-Exploration theory is very good (obvious observation is obvious :tongue:)

I'm going to give my Rock list a bit or a rework for SCG Open: Seattle. I'll post hopefully tomorrow. If any of you are going, I'd love to meet up.

-Matt

sdematt

05-18-2010, 09:57 AM

Ill be posting my list after school, just no time to do it now :(

-Matt

damionblackgear

05-18-2010, 10:45 AM

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you Matt.

Your list looks a lot like lands but without some of the other land cards (manabond). Why not play the harvest main? It would see like it would be a good card for the intuition pile. Additionally you could run it over a Vore. We should probably post this in another forum though as it's clearly not what the admin's will call Rock.

* I would actually suggest Finks over Vore in your build. You have no hard removal and it would help against aggro, burn, and the sort.

sdematt

05-18-2010, 09:31 PM

I was just using the Lands deck as a point to show that we're on the same tangent with respect to Exploration/Crucible :smile:

The list for Rock, slightly tweaked.

4 Verdant catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog (or another Stronghold)
1 Karakas
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland

4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
1/0 Eternal witness

3 Exploration
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
3/4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Swords to Plowshares

I've got the 1/0 and the 3/4 as I'm not sure if I'll run Eternal Witness at one copy or not. I love the card to death, and it's a freaking tank at getting back removal, but not sure if one copy is enough to hold that slot. I've cut Deeds for Explorations, for the factor getting that extra speed boost in the early game so I can take control. Also, if they counter Exploration, it means they're not countering a Vindicate, Swords, etc.

Not sure about Baneslayer yet, as I haven't done a ton of testing. In the other deck, my creature CMC curve was quite a bit different, with Dorans and such. Now I've got more 5-drops, and I'm not sure how that'll work out if I don't successfully land an Exploration. I'll give this build a shot and see.

As you can see Ian, I've added more basics, but I've still kept a good number of duals. The deck is hungry, and I don't want to play Exploration, then run out of stuff to play. If you guys also want to proxy the deck up, I'd be interested in seeing how you guys are finding it. I might play your list at this Thursday's local Legacy event Ian, if that's alright with you.

-Matt

Edit:

I've done a bit of testing with my list. If Exploration is played early, and you get some card draw going, the deck is freaking ridiculous. But, even without it, it still comes back to being a good list. More testing needed, but so far, me likey :smile:

damionblackgear

05-19-2010, 07:28 PM

Sorry for the delay, Work's been a little more demanding than normal.

I like the list. Exploration is always fun but, like you said, You need the draw (to abuse it). To be honest, in your build I would replace them with hierarch or Birds (your choice). The numbers would leave it off enough to not be drawn that often but at the same time show up enough.

I've never been sold on Stalker though. At least with Goyf you could still count on their yard for anything you left but,resetting your Knight seems like a bad idea.

I still LOVE Witness! I keep trying to find her a home in my build but I never liked seeing her when she was there (There was the build with Lilliana that I liked her in...) She seems better suited for your build where her recursion can actually be used to benefit you in a very more direct way. I would bring her up to at least a 2 of in your list. I was testing it a bit and it seemed like there was always an option to deal with an issue in your build.

I was going to ask how creature based your meta is but I also remembered it being filled with them in one of your earlier posts so I understand all the removal. How are your control matches going?

Better question, How're you doing against Reanimator? It's popularity is growing...

sdematt

05-19-2010, 07:34 PM

I'm not saying I cry myself to sleep after I play Reanimator, but it's pretty hard. They can just choose Inkwell, if they know the deck, and go to town. Leyline will obviously help, and I have many different kinds of removal. I have yet to do my usual rigorous testing (30 games preboard, 30 games post).

I was thinking about cutting Stalker. In this build, he seems clunky now, and Baneslayer seems to get there better. Plus, E. Wit can go back in. Huzzah!

What did you mean about when you played it "there was an option to deal with an issue". Not sure if you mean it had a ton of different stuff to kill different crap, or you found issues in the deck that are annoying you and need to be solved. Could be I'm just dead tired, and reading comprehension is minimal at this point.

I'll definitely do a bit more tweaking tonight.

-Matt

damionblackgear

05-19-2010, 08:48 PM

Was making reference to Witness being able to get back something relevant when it was played. I have only been able to test online but it seems like you have a solid build.

Leyline would be a great addition to your board but you'll have to be able to solve bounce. It's one of those things that's fun to deal with. What decks are you having issues with?

AggroSteve

05-22-2010, 07:35 AM

as you two know i've been thinking a lot about cutting confidant, and running recurring nightmare

addictionally i was thinking of horizon canopy and crucible(but not nececcarily), i was thinking why not playing cantrips just like so many other decks instead of a vulnerable creature which most of the time just lures out removal but you won't have any draw out of it, and in my list there are about 18 creatures, i do not really care if some of my beaters get hit by removal, they do not have enough removal to kill all of my threads

horizon canopy i thought should be a 4 of cause you do not always have a knight to fetch for it, like this you would have cantrips/drawengine with crucible even without knight + with crucible we could have a wasteland-softlock

kinda

05-22-2010, 10:12 AM

I updated my list...

4 savannah
4 windswept heath
4 wasteland
4 horizon canopy
3 marsh flats
2 scrubland
1 bayou
1 forest
1 plains

4 knight of the reliquary
4 tarmo
3 terravore

2 solitary confinement
4 cataclysm
4 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 swords to plowshares
4 crucible of worlds
3 exploration

damionblackgear

05-22-2010, 11:05 AM

My only issue with 4 Canopy is that you tend to tap them... a lot. If you can solve the damage issue then go for it. Recurring the Utility lands is also nice. If you can fit it in I would suggest Nomad Stadium over 1 of the Horizon canopy. You still take a pain but you have an extra way to gain life (As long as you have threshold).

Recurring nightmare is a fun card. It's really good with Finks as well and can gain a ton of life if you it online. My only thing to tell you is beware of the graveyard hate.

Just wondering, what was the biggest issue with Bob? Is it that he likes to 3 us?

------

Kinda, Your list looks to be light on threats as well as solutions. The reason we play some of the random cards we do is to solve problems. I'm against cataclysm because it leaves them with it as well. While Knight and Vore may be bigger, Goyf is still the #1 played creature in Legacy (He might as well be an artifact creature) and the goyf standoff will give them time to recover. Additionally, When you cataclysm you might be fighting Vial, Hierarch, other Knights, Progenitus, (you get the picture) and you need to be able to solve that as each of them provides a solution to what was supposed to be your solution. So essentially, you are answering their threats but, you're not providing an advantage for you to push.

----

Everyone, I'm sorry that Crucible is starting to be pushed. Your own play style also matters there and influences the best choice for you. My advice: Try idea's and question beliefs.

sdematt

05-22-2010, 12:51 PM

I would definitely agree with one thing: Crucible isn't required for a Rock Deck to be good, boys and girls. In Damion's deck, he runs it to the the style of his deck, we needn't stick it into every one of our decks now because he did well with the deck. As Damion and I were saying, the deck is in a different direction, which is good, but it's not the norm. We needn't stick pieces in just because we think it'll do better. Damion has innovated and done well, now so should we :cool:

@ Kinda

Your build basically looks like New Horizons minus blue. Mind you, is New Horizons really even an archetype? It seems like it's The Fear with more creatures and less Intuition. I'm not saying your deck is bad, Kinda, but I'm curious on a few cards: Solitary and Cataclysm. Just seems really out of place for what you're trying to do. I doubt you need to run the Crucible/Exploration engine here, but if you are feeling like you want to go that way, I'd say throw in more utility lands for the long game. You're not an Aggro deck per say. I'd toss in a Karakas just to help against Reanimator. You have 6 open slots if you're not including Solitary/Cata, so maybe opt for a Volrath's stronghold and possibly some more removal (you literally can't have enough removal in this format).

Hope this helps.

By the way, I have a new list up.

It's similar to before, but I've cut some removal for some speed, changed the manabase to be sturdier against Tempo, and so far, it seems nicer.

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Eternal Witness
3 Birds of Paradise (this could actually be STE, but trying birds for now)

4 Vindicate
2 Deed
2 Pulse
4 Swords
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
3 Phyrexian Arena

Again, the build is heavy board control. Cutting 2 deeds for birds seems good so far, as I never use 4 deeds per game. since I'm playing Eternal Witness again, I still have 4 Deed, in a way. Baneslayer seems superior to Tombstalker, as I'm not continually draining my yard to play him. I miss the explosivity of Tombstalker, but we'll see.

-Matt

AggroSteve

05-22-2010, 08:22 PM

i think its rather funny, all of us are going i totaly different route from each other
i'm going with recurring nightmare.... till now, not done many testings yet, but i kinda like it, though it feels a little situational but probably i'm still not that used to it, but if i get it going with finks and witnesses its sick it provides you with answers again and again
but i've got some doubts about it, damion referred to the worst enemy of nightmare,... gravehate, and every deck plays gravehate, at least in sideboard

because of that i suggested horizon canopy, and eventually crucible, together they generate a lot of cardadvantage, and compared to confidant it won't cost me that much life

i layed my eyes just recently on horizon canopy, i played that card in staxx and found it was not bad, and it was the only draw i was provided with in staxx, than New Horizons began using canopy, not as utility land but as cantrip, so i want to try it now as well, maybe it works extremely fine

lately another card cought my eye, ohran viper could be could be quite usefull , did anyone try that creature

now to confidant..... my issues with him are the following

main issue, the extreme lifeloss if we havent got divining top, i lose 3 life allmost all the time, and like this confidant is not bearable for a (aggro)control-deck

second issue, the moment a confidant shows up he immediatly dies to spotremoval, well if he would not, we would win^^, my problem with this is that there are other creatures that do the same job (lure out spotremoval), and cost less, best example would be mother of runes, further on i am playing as i just mentioned about 18 creatures in my rock-build, not all are big fat beaters but they do the job as well, just not that fast, and i do not think that any deck can get rid of that many creatures (where 4 of em have 2 lifes)

next issue is that most of the time i would need answers for situiations, and bob himself is no answer to any situation other than "i want more cards in hand", i for my part prefer divining top with library-manipulation to search for solutions (i love knight for this)
in fact if i have top in play and have trouble solving some situiations, i never dig for confidant first

for these reasons i am searching for an alternative to confidant

hopefully it was all understandable, since i often have problem expressing my thoughts accurately^^

sdematt

05-22-2010, 11:09 PM

Post your list up, AggroSteve, so we can see what you're running. Then, we can judge you....:cool:

-Matt

AggroSteve

05-23-2010, 10:48 AM

ok, lets see, but i have to say the list like this is not tested yet

my decks always have 61 cards, its a tic of mine

LANDS (still experimenting with manabase because i just got the knights and made some magor changes lately with horizon canopy)

3x windswepth heath
3x verdant catacombs
2x bloodstained mire (will be replaced with march flats as soon as possible)
2x overgrown tomb
2x godless shrine
3-4x horizon canopy
2-3x wasteland
1x volraths stronghold / Kor heaven / Bojuka bog
1x karakas / Kor heaven / bojuka bog
1x forest
1x swamp
1x plains

CREATURES

4x tarmogoyf
3x knight of the reliquary
3x eternal witness
4x kitchen finks
2-3x shriekmaw
0-2x quasali pridemage

SPELLS

3x thoughtsieze
3x inquisition of kozilek
4x swords to plowshares
4x vindicate
3x pernicious deed
2x recurring nightmare
3x senseis divining top

sideboard: (from older list)

4x thorn of amethyst
3x relic of progenitus
4x diabolic edict
2x gaddock teeg
2x hide/seek or something else

in my previous list i was playing doran and no wastelands-more basics, i rarely had manaproblems, right now the deck seems to be needing more colored mana than before and due to wasteland i do not have that many any more, are the wastelands really needed, can we screw opponents consistently with them and how many of them would be reccomended (as i said, i'm still not used to knight and this manabase that much)

damionblackgear

05-24-2010, 03:25 PM

You have 0-2 Pridemages listed but I'm wondering what they're for. Counterbalance is being pushed out and we do so well against them already.

Your list makes me want to include a cantrip wall (Blossoms and/or Omens). It's defensive and also gives you a card. With Nightmare it means that a recurred Finks will also draw you a card (sick advantage). It would bring you back to Rock's roots and solve the lack of advantage you get from not having Bob. Besides, Who's gonna aim removal at a wall?!

So I would go to 5 discard spells (3 Seize and 2 Therapy, you would have fodder). and add the wall in the place of the Pridemage.

Lastly, I would suggest a little more Graveyard hate for your board. The meta has a lot of Graveyard based decks and it would be more helpful to be prepared than to be cause looking.

*There is nothing wrong with having a signature to all of your decks. So don't worry about the 61 thing. It's you. And that's what makes it yours.

AggroSteve

05-24-2010, 08:09 PM

i allready thought of wall of blossom, i allways liked it in my (far) older lists, they were just dropt due to not being able to attack, and ill probably try them again, but im not sold on theraphy any more, i want to allways hit something with my discard (even if theraphy is good), but even if i do not like them much i'll try them again as well

to the gravehate thing, the hide/seeks in the board is more or less a flexible slot, and lately i was not happy with to few gravehate any more, the will probably become tormods crypt

for the slot of pridemages/walls i thought of an alternative which would be ohran viper, but not sure what would be better

about wastelands, how many would you suggest to play, i think 2 should probably be enough in my list specially if i got vindicates and witnesses to get rid of lands i do not want to see

also which utility lands would you suggest for what meta (still not used to knight)

stonghold would be control
kor heaven aggro
bojuka against grave
karakas against iona
tabernacle (havent got the money for it) for dredge and emty the warrens
maze of ith for i don't know, same as kor heaven a would think

as you can see there are only 2 to at most 3 slots for utility lands, so which combination would you suggest for a unknown meta?

ps: i kinda like going a little back to the roots of the rock^^

sdematt

05-24-2010, 11:00 PM

I usually run 61 in slower type decks (ie. Land, Stax, Eternal Garden, Rock, etc.). 61 does not hurt your chances statistically all that much, and sometimes, I like have 3 copies of something instead of 2. Will post more when I don't have a pile of Organic Chem to do.

-Matt

sdematt

05-25-2010, 02:11 AM

I would say do a split of Shriekmaw and Fleshbag Marauder. You need to have a sac creature nowadays for stuff like: Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Inkwell Leviathan, Progenitus, etc. Remember, Shriekmaw only hits non-black, non-artifact. The Marauder allows you to get rid of all those tricky creature you can't pound to the ground with your removal.

I'd opt for no Wasteland at all: you have no way to recur it, minus Eternal witness. I'd say go for 1 Volrath's Stronghold (for nice interaction with Marauder/Shriekmaw) and 1 Karakas (Eff you, Iona :P). I'd say having 2-3 Utility lands are great, but don't sacrifice stability for fun tricks. You are the Rock: a stable manabase is essential, as the "fast" aggro of Legacy preys on a weak manabase using Wasteland/Port tricks.

For Viper, I'm not sure that's the best thing you could use there. Wall of blossoms is good for a blocker and for the nice card advantage, so I'd keep that in. The only thing I'm thinking is that this isn't enough card advantage to overwhelm your opponent. Rock uses the card advantage and sheer power of those cards to crush its opponent. You have 4 Wall of Blossoms, but no Phyrexian Arena or anything. Top is card manipulation more than card advantage. You can't just one-for-one their threats with topdecks. I mean, you can, but sometimes it isn't enough to get there. I'd personally cut tops for Arenas, and keep Wall of Blossoms. Arena, albeit slow, lets you power out ridiculous shenanigans earlier on. You're drawing twice as much as your opponent at this point (hopefully). With the sheer amount of removal and fat, you should be able to take out their threats, or lay our sufficient threats to put them on the defensive instead of the offensive (take the fight to them).

Hope this helped,if it didn't, I blame late night rambling.

-Matt

damionblackgear

05-25-2010, 03:34 AM

Matt makes a great point on your lack of land recursion. I agree entirely with the choices. 2-3 utility lands would be more than enough. I would suggest not using ones that go to the yard. Don't get too hung up on how to make your Knight solve everything. I like to try and preach the K.I.S.S. Theory when it comes to getting used to a deck. You can always change it later to better suite your needs.

One correction though (Probably due to the time it is), Sphinx has protection from your creatures. All of your removal will get it (Except Shreikmaw and Karakas).

As far as an unknown meta, That's what you should be designing your Rock to beat. You never know what someone may show up with and you should be prepared for it. Don't be dead to anything.

Also, I wouldn't suggest using Artifacts for graveyard hate. Null Rod is being played. Leyline, Extirpate and Macabre are more than enough. That's an advantage of being Black.

AggroSteve

05-25-2010, 06:50 AM

i will definitly try all of your suggestions, if you say null rod is being played then i will probably go for extirpates, they are more versatile

the no wasteland-thing is more to my liking, but maybe ill stick with 1 or 2 in my list, but i'd love to get at least 2 basic of each color in the deck

i have to say i do not like arena at all, ind i would never cut divining tops again, i just love them

as i just said the list like this is still quite untested and right now i have really few time to test due to university
and if testings are not doing well i will first try out crucible for wastelands and horzin canopys and if i do not like that either i can still go back to confidant, but in that case i probably will be playing a 4th divining top, together they freak out, ohterwise its risky

sdematt

05-27-2010, 03:07 AM

I'll be playing my list tomorrow, so I'll write a tournament report after the fact.

-Matt

gvbarroso

05-29-2010, 01:42 PM

Hi guys

I've come back to playing Rockish decks after a while, but I feel like I want something more controlish...
I have 2 different lists, can you help me out?
The first one is pure BG, as follows:

4 Master of the Wild Hunt
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
3 Eternal Witness
4 Wall of Blossoms
2 Garruk

2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

3 Sensei's Divinig Top

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
1 Windsweapt Heath
1 Marsh Flats
6 Forest
5 Swamp

The second one is actually truffle shuffle, but as The Rock have a broad meaning these days, I guess I can post it here

3 Krosan Tusker
2 Eternal Dragon
3 Eternal Witness
2 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Etched Oracle

4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress

2 Damnation
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Liliana Vess
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windsweapt Heath
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp

So, what do you think?

snorlaxcom

05-29-2010, 06:51 PM

So, what do you think?

Your win conditions in both of these decks are puny. Goyf, Stalker, or Knight didn't make the cut? Stalker makes use of a beefy graveyard Rock decks make with the pile of discard, fetchlands, and removal as well as being Immune to your own Deed. The exclusion of Wasteland and inclusion of Etched Oracle seems bad. A 3/3 for 4? It needs to be 4/4 to do anything. Seems like you wanted to control the board completely and got caught up in exhausting the opponent's deck of threats. Phyrexian Arena should help get some steam rolling in the CA department. The suggestions here will probably veer these builds of your Rock lists into already posted lists. What are trying to do differently? How has testing been and a potential sb plan for your local meta?

gvbarroso

05-29-2010, 07:45 PM

Your win conditions in both of these decks are puny. Goyf, Stalker, or Knight didn't make the cut? Stalker makes use of a beefy graveyard Rock decks make with the pile of discard, fetchlands, and removal as well as being Immune to your own Deed. The exclusion of Wasteland and inclusion of Etched Oracle seems bad. A 3/3 for 4? It needs to be 4/4 to do anything. Seems like you wanted to control the board completely and got caught up in exhausting the opponent's deck of threats. Phyrexian Arena should help get some steam rolling in the CA department. The suggestions here will probably veer these builds of your Rock lists into already posted lists. What are trying to do differently? How has testing been and a potential sb plan for your local meta?

The second list is ''actually'' Truffle Shuffle. You can find a thread on this deck here at the Scourge, but since it's kinda Rockish I came here for some new thoughts. The deck is much more control orientated than The Rock, which is a midrange deck. This is why Goyf and KotR don't fit in. Stalker is an idea, but I guess it alone can't do that much, since all my opponents' removal will be targeting it. As for Etched Oracle, I play a single Plateou in the main, which can be fetched by Windsweapt Heath, Marsh Flats or Eternal Dragon. I think these are enough ''tutors'' for the red mana, since you dont want to play the Oracle in the early game anyway...
The sideboard is built against combo: 4 Extirpate, 4 Tormod's Crypt, 4 Ethersworn Canonist, 3 Innocent Blood

The first list I made up last night. It's also meant to be a more control Rock, with a very consistent mana base. Stalker seems stronger here, but I don't know where to fit it since anything I take off will render the deck more vulnerable to some archetype. Garruk + MotwH is the win condition and are very powerful against aggro and Reanimate. Wall is awesome against aggro and very nice versus combo, as a Therapy flashback target. I like Witness very much, because the BG version don't have StP and she can take Edict back, as well as disruption and killed win conditions). Any thoughts?

zalachan

05-29-2010, 08:21 PM

gvbarroso

05-29-2010, 09:12 PM

List 1- so, in what matchups is MotWH such a bomb? I think Goyf would fit better. Or Knight. I would also suggest adding White for KotR and Swords (maybe cut Pulse), cause they are good and having Iona on black sux. Also, add 3rd top. I would cut numbers on Witnesses. You reallly need 4? They are kinda slow and open you to GY hate and dont chump'n'kill anything. And i guess 1x Catacombs is Stronghold?

List 2- i can't really tell, seems really slow for meta right now. Honestly, i would rather play Slide than Truffle right now,speed is comparable, but you get maindeck CotV, better CA, Witness recursion, Loam engine seems less clumsy than Oracle+Plateu;

List 1 - I took 1 Witness for 1 SDT. MotWH is pretty good vs. Merfolk, for example. And goblins, given we have enough disruption for their removal (which I believe is the case). Also, with 9 1-mana disruption, plus 3 witness for recursion, I guess we can sometimes delay reanimator's plan for long enough so it can take care of Iona for black. For example, if we are on the go and we can disrupt reanimator until we drop MotWH on the 4th turn, followed by their 4th turn Iona, the wolfguy can kill her before she attacks 3 times (as well as swinging for a considerable amount of damage while Iona is tapped). I played a ''classic'' contemporary midrange rock list, with 4 Goyf, 4 KotR and didn't really like it. That's why I'm now going for a more control version.

List 2 - yeah, Truffle is going through a difficult time in today's enviroment, but fortunately in my local meta it can take home some money...

zalachan

05-30-2010, 04:18 AM

You didn't like KotR agains Iona? That card is pure win!

ontopic: im just heading for the tournament.. we'll see, how rusty my brains are in the morning, heh :)

zalachan

05-31-2010, 05:46 AM

Okay, i will do a quick recap of yesterday, but i don't remember the details. I used the exact list damionblackgear used here :http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=32571
and i must say i was pleased with it. I went 3-2-1, i beat Dredge /w Ghasts, White Stax and Thopter Control. I lost to Merfolk and Progenitus Elves and drew with New horizons. Quick recap:

Against Mono White Stax:
Game1- i win the roll, Thoughtseize, land an early Confidant. He hasn't got really much (like Ghostly Prisons etc.) and i beat myself to 2, when i finally reveal SDT. Then i win with the cards i drew in the meantime.. (i boarded +4 Leyline, +3 Kitchen Finks, -3 Armageddon, -1 Tabernacle, -3 Exploration?)
Game2- i keep 2 land hand that is fetch, basic, Exploration, Crucible and maybe Deed plus Knight. I trust the false gods and i don't see the 3rd land until he lands Elspeth and Armageddons and Elspeth's friends beat my skull in.
Game3- He plays early Chalice @1 and @2 and i have literally all 3+CC drops in my hand so its ok by me. I get Crucible O-Ringed, but stick Knight and Finks. He locks the battlefield with Magus of the Tabernacle and Ghostly Prison and i land Deed. I think that then he Armageddoned and i blew my Deed. Bord gets cleaned, i get back my Crucible and in short order i play BSA and wreck him.
1-0-0

Against Merfolk:
Game1- i land Confidant and he has something like Muta-Vial, Island-Standstill and then 2 more Mutas.. he plays some Lords and SSS and i can't really controll it all. The only thing i could would be to Armageddon and die to 2 lords, so i didn't. He also spills the beer on the table, so i pack it in quickly :D
Game2- he has jitte, but i delay it with Kor Haven and draw Deed, then play Knight ftw.
Game3- he has 3 Mutas, Cursecatcher, 1 Merrow Lord and Jitte. I misplay when i try to Vindicate that Jitte, only to get it Cursecatched. I knew i lost the game right there, but played it out. I had Goyf and played out some Confidants for fodder, but topdecks didn't provide answers. I was told i also misplayed, cause i had 1 Wasteland in my hand (the only card), since he was sending Mutas /w Jitte in. My reasoning at the moment was, that he had lots of power on the board and if i showed him that i have no answers, he would insta-gib me (i was at 12 or so).
1-1-0

Against New Horizons:
Game1- i don't get no threats, only answers, and he lands one Goyf that gets there.
Game2- i think he boarded out his counterspells and boarded in RWMs and Paths, maybe also sth. else? I board like -3 Armageddon +3 Choke.
I land early Choke that kept busy like 6 islands through his entire game, but he had 2 green lands active, so he was pretty much in the game.
I proceed to Toughtseize/Edict/Vindicate like 9 creatures on his side with my active SDT. I misplay when he Paths my critter (Bob maybe?) and i accidently shuffle my Top in (facepalm), but then i rip it off the top again. Laughs all over the place, and i land one big Knight.
Game3- no time left, thanks to my proactive play in 2nd game, so we drew.
1-1-1

Against Progenitus Elves
Game1- he has two elves (1 lord with forestwalk), i land Tabernacle and he forgets to pay the taxes, so i win with 2 Goyfs. (i board -3 Armageddon, +3 Finks)
Game2- he gets Progenitus out on second turn, so his board is 1 big Hydra and Llanowar plus 1 or 2 forests. I have Vindicate and Edict right there. I think the correct play would be to untap, pray for the 3rd land and Vindicate the Elf, then pray some more that he didn't have another elf and Edict his ass. Since i felt that that much prayer against GreenHorde.dec wouldn't do much, i Edicted Llanowar away, hoped for another, didn't get it, Cantriped Canopy and drew blank, so that was game.
Game3- i mull on 6 i think and get some meh hand with Exploration and Goyf. He lands 3 Lords plus Llanowar and beats me into pulp.
1-2-1

Against Thopter Control
Game1- long game, we fight over CB and other stuff, but he insists on landing it. Then i play BSA and Goyf (it resolves, since he has no Top) and win. (-3 Exploration?, +3 Choke)
Game2- this game lasted even longer. He CBs my Crucible with Tutored Crucible of his own, then plays it. He fetches out a bunch of lands, has 1 Ruins and EE (1 more Ruins in hand) and one angry Assembly Worker. I get my top to stick, he stcks his, too. He EEs my Knight, but also his Crucible, since he has Ruins on the board. I find myself into Primal Command, Command away his SDT and GY, so his Crucible gets useless. I spin my Top and find Primal Command and Armageddon. I Command his Top and GY away (bye, Crucible) and also Armageddon. We both get Tops, i had mine on the top and he rips his. I am on 2 life, but he lacks 1 or 2 turns to get me, since hre had Foundry in his grip.
2-2-1

Against LED based Bloodghast Dredge
Game1- i win the roll. Toughtseize him and see: 1x Study, 1x Breaktrough, 1x Undiscovered Paradise, 1x Gemstone Mine, 2x Bridge, 1x Iona. I take Study, then next turn, i take Breaktrough. 3rd turn Knight, 4th turn Geddon and i have 9/9 Knight and he has nothing. (-3 Armageddon, -4 Toughtseize, +3Finks, +4 Leyline)
Game 2- we both mull to 5, where i get 2x Wasteland, 1x Top, 1x Fetch, 1x Confidant. He gets some dredges and Ghasts, one Bridge in GY, too. I waste his rainbow land and he lands Dredge2 land, but no action. I reveal Finks and draw Edict. He stops his Ghast beats after i play Finks, i Edict my Finks, he looses his bridge, then i beat some more and Edict his lone Moeba.
My starting 7 here had Leyline, Karakas and SDT, but i shipped that hand away. Later i was told that was stellar hand, but i didn't feel like i want to play that hand out, since it had all 3 drops and ino gas. Would you play that hand?

3-2-1
-----------------

Overall, i had a blast with this deck. I could do a lot better, if only i tested the deck some more (time constraints). I must say i hated Explorations all day long, since i never really had a chance to combo it with Crucible. I also hated my odds agains the two tribal matchups, since i thought i could win, but w/e.
If i played it again (i hardly believe that, since i don't have the nerve to borrow Tabernacle and 40+ other cards for that deck again:D), i would change:
-1 Exploration
+1 Pernicious Deed
That's pretty much it. I would leave the board as it is, i think it's just fine.
Thanks for the fun deck, damion :P

damionblackgear

05-31-2010, 03:13 PM

Congrats on the tournament. the Elves match seemed to be a rough one I don't know if I would've used the edict vs them instead of the vindicate but that's personal preference.

I was wondering:

What you boarded vs Merfolk?

Did you have 2 Primal Commands? Since you used two during the same game (Thopter, G2). If you did, What did you cut for it or did you go up to 61 in the main? I personally have started to love the cards ability to shift a game but, I don't know if I want a second.

Did you not like the Bog? You never put it in vs the graveyard based matches.

Did you notice the differences in how the deck functions depending on how you decide to use it? I counted about 6 different 'modes' that I've switched into and I'm excited to be able to use them at will. I wish I could show you but it's kinda hard to. Just keep at it. *I'm interested to see where someone else takes the deck.

I'm currently lending the deck to others in my meta to see if the curse is true. "You're the only one who can pilot your decks correctly!" - A couple of friend to me about this and 2 other decks...

zalachan

06-01-2010, 04:31 PM

The Elves match seemed to be a rough one I don't know if I would've used the edict vs them instead of the vindicate but that's personal preference.

Yea, i regretted that move.. it's highly unlikely that he would not play another elf, but i should at least try. He played sloppy and missed opportunities like a blind junkie, but i think he would get the message if i Vindicated his elf.

What you boarded vs Merfolk?

I boarded in 3x Choke and out Exploration, i think. I didn't need/see them game 2. Then. Chokes were among chaff on the top in the 3rd game, but he had 1 Island and 3 Mutas out (besides Vial), and i didn't bother.

Did you have 2 Primal Commands? Since you used two during the same game (Thopter, G2). If you did, What did you cut for it or did you go up to 61 in the main? I personally have started to love the cards ability to shift a game but, I don't know if I want a second.

I wrote the matches down wrong there. I resolved 1 command 1st game and 1 command 2nd game, but somehow wrote it down wrong. Should i fix that?

Did you not like the Bog? You never put it in vs the graveyard based matches.

I didn't wrote that down. I am not certain if i played it against Stax, but am 100% sure i played it against Dredge.

Did you notice the differences in how the deck functions depending on how you decide to use it? I counted about 6 different 'modes' that I've switched into and I'm excited to be able to use them at will. I wish I could show you but it's kinda hard to. Just keep at it. *I'm interested to see where someone else takes the deck.

Yeah, i liked it, i had some bad streaks. I am used to play more sorcery disruption and i wasted some key spells, only to realize i will have a hard chance winning.
I personally feel i would play one more Deed, but that's just me. I should really throw it against the meta and test it more, but at the moment im busy with my exams, but i will give it more time soon. Also, you were saying about that Survival menace you played against. Did you fix your board to fight it? How strong are Thorns in board and what kind of matchup do you get game 2 and 3? Is it winnable against ANT or still loopsided in their favor?
I think i didn't execute all the modes too well, it's hard to say i played perfect alll the time. Tell me, what modes do you play? I played the Armageddon/Crucible mide against controls, agressive Knight/Finks supported by hate (postboard) against Dredge, Confidant/Top removal package against New Horizons. I think i could execute the Aggro matchups better, but they both had a really good streak of lords and i just didn't get anything. Or mulligan more..

I'm currently lending the deck to others in my meta to see if the curse is true. "You're the only one who can pilot your decks correctly!" - A couple of friend to me about this and 2 other decks...

It's fun, yes. I currently don't own FoWs and any blue strategy seems out of my reach at the time. It's also really awkward to borrow cards like Tabernacle, so i can't really build that deck irl. It's not like i used it more than twice all day (against Mrfolk too), but i know it would be pretty insane if i really needed it.
People seemed interested and laughed at Angel and Command, but i used them to win some games, so i guess they are strong (they, combined solved more games than Knight did, he was answered most of the time).

damionblackgear

06-01-2010, 06:57 PM

I boarded in 3x Choke and out Exploration, i think. I didn't need/see them game 2. Then. Chokes were among chaff on the top in the 3rd game, but he had 1 Island and 3 Mutas out (besides Vial), and i didn't bother.

Normally, I just swap out the Armageddons for chokes (1;1) and call it a day. I know Finks go in when you're on the draw *most games* to slow them down a little more. The goal is to simply land choke tabernacle. An active knight is usually game as it slows them 2 attackers instead of just 1. Just keep an eye out for stifle. Knight can fight you out of a back to basics battle if you didn't fetch basics.

I wrote the matches down wrong there. I resolved 1 command 1st game and 1 command 2nd game, but somehow wrote it down wrong. Should i fix that?

Don't worry about it. I was just confused. I don't know how many other people actually paid enough attention to my list to notice that there were 2 Primals in one game.

Also, you were saying about that Survival menace you played against. Did you fix your board to fight it? How strong are Thorns in board and what kind of matchup do you get game 2 and 3? Is it winnable against ANT or still loopsided in their favor?

Thorns are a special case. I like slowing the other decks down so I have a chance, but it's not the best chance. They normally just go for some stuff and solve the thorns. The best thing that could happen would be chaining the thorns (turn 2, 3, 4...). They do, however, give you game vs burn. Slowing them down with one or two can be the game. Especially if you get up to being able to cast things like Vindicate and Armageddon. It's also useful vs Enchantress as they only have 1 spell that it's not costing more.

I haven't had a chance to test prior to the changes. I think it's almost a dead game 1 but I'm not sure about 2 and 3. The board as it is should be able to deal with the biggest issues there and I'm starting to think I just have a better game than I thought against it. I'll find out more after I play against it. *I haven't actually played against it. he crushed the other Rock deck on turn 3 both games (+21 damage)...

I think i didn't execute all the modes too well, it's hard to say i played perfect alll the time. Tell me, what modes do you play? I played the Armageddon/Crucible mide against controls, agressive Knight/Finks supported by hate (postboard) against Dredge, Confidant/Top removal package against New Horizons. I think i could execute the Aggro matchups better, but they both had a really good streak of lords and i just didn't get anything. Or mulligan more..

I tend to try and make it mimic other decks instead of thinking of it as Aggro or Conrtol. It's easier to do those ones but, if you can pull it off, you can do more as the other decks than the types. *My favorites are Stax & Aggro-Loam.

*Side Note: I find it interesting that you're thinking of adding another Deed. I'm thinking of cutting it. I'm finding that it's less help in most of the current matches than I would like. I'm still figuring out what to put in it's place.

sdematt

06-07-2010, 02:10 AM

This thread is in serious need of a bump.

I watched live as Elias took Orr down with a really lucky Path, and I'm now in "What should I play at SCG Seattle?" Mode.

I have a choice of Bant Survival (no Iona combo), Armageddon Stax, Dutch Stax, or the Rock.

In case you guys haven't seen yet, the T16 had several Zoo, Several NO Bant, some Fish, 3 Lands, and a distinct absence of Reanimator. This is the list I've got so far for the Rock:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Eternal Witness
3 Birds of Paradise

2 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
2 Pulse
4 Thoughtseize (I might go 2/2 Inquisiton split, since Zoo will be prevalent)
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Swords to Plowshares

Board:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Bojuka Bog
0/2 Extirpate (Loam decks, Reanimator, Dredge)
4/2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Choke
3 Path to Exile/Thelon's Curse/Engineered Plague/More combo hate if I play Extirpate

I'd like some help so we can make sure I do decently well :P

Also, if any of you would like to meet up at SCG Seattle, that'd be cool :D

-Matt

ZZZ

06-07-2010, 11:23 AM

My first post in this thread although I play some version of the Rock quite often.

I usually play a more controllish version nowadays and yesterday I played the following at a 20-person tournament:

2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Windswept heath
2Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Savannah
3 Marsh Flats
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Recurring Nightmare
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Choke
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Extirpate
1 Path to Exile
1 Krosan Grip

I’ve changed my sideboard to the above the day before the tournament. I used to have a tutor board with Thorn and Canonist for the combo match-up but I expected very little combo at this tournament (and I think to have a chance at winning game 2&3 you need to dedicate half your board to the match) and a lot of Tribal (Gobs and Merfolk).
It turned out to be a good meta-call as there were 4 or 5 Goblin decks, 2 or 3 Merfolk, some CounterTop and only 1 ANT.
I wrote a small report, so here goes:

Round 1, Philip playing Rock
I recognised his name from a dutch Legacy boards and knew he plays The Rock as well.
Game 1, he leads with Scrubland, go and I blind Therapy him, naming Goyf (I had a hand with an answer for everything: 2 StP, 1 Vindicate and a Top…) and he shows me a hand with 1 Goyf, 1 Vindicate and nothing but land… I put my Top to work to find me a threath and it finds me 2 Goyf and a Confidant while the top of his deck gives him 2 Swords to Plowshares and a Path to Exile, nice topdeckskills. He lands a Mystic and gets Jitte, which I Vindicate. I let his Mystic beat me a bit while I try to find another creature. I eventually get a Finks down and later a Goyf which take the game.
I board in Krosan Grip and a Path to Exile for a Cabal Therapy and a Thoughtseize (I think).
We both have slow starts. He plays a Mystic and gets a Jitte for which I have the Vindicate. He extirpates my Vindicate and so he gets to see my hand which has a Deed among other things. He makes a mistake here as he continues to develop his board by playing Goyf, another Mystic and the SoLaS he fetched with Mystic. I am happy to go 4 for 1 with Deed and I easily take the game from there.
Round 2, Francesco playing Angry Tradewind (BANT) survival
I watched a bit of his first round match so I know he’s playing Tradewind Survival. He also plays Hierarch and RWM.
I have to mull to a decent six. I start out with Top while he plays Hierarch. He has a Survival on turn 2 and starts getting what he needs with Squee; while I play out 2 Confidants to hopefully keep up with Survival. I’m a bit low on mana and my Confidants get me down to 8. I find a Deed for his full board but he has all kind of shenanigans to save some stuff (Quirion Elves) and has another Survival in hand. I’m beaten to death by RWM, Tradewind Rider and some elves.
I board in the 4 Pate and the Krosan Grip. I’m not sure what I took out here; I know I was considering boarding out some discard as they’re very good turn 1 and 2 but after that quite useless in this matchup.
I lead with Therapy on Survival but he doesn’t have it this time. I do notice that he only has 2 lands and a Hierarch in hand and I already thought after the first game that the key to this matchup is denying him his mana. So on my second turn, I Plow the Hierarch and 2 early Goyfs beat him down before he can do anything.
I board in the PtE for a Thoughtseize.
He wins the 3rd game on combat tricks. He doesn’t get a Survival active but 2 Quirian Elves and Roffellos provide him with a ton of mana and Mom gets his RWM through my defense while I can’t get any damage in.
Round 3, Robbert with Merfolk.
On his first 3 turns, he plays out 3 Cursecatchers and a Jitte but when I play a Finks he doesn’t want to attack into it which allows me to Top into what I need. He draws nothing but lands (I think by the end of the game, he had about 10 Islands and a Mutavault in play). Deed clears the board and Elspeth powered beats take the game.
I board in the anti-Tribal package (aka 4 Plague + PtE) for 2 Elspeth, a Deed and a Therapy.
I land an early Plague but he has a LoA to keep his Cursecatcher and Adept alive. He gets some beats in but when I find Eternal Witness, Recurring Nightmare and StP, there’s not much he can do.
I’m 2-1 so if I win my next 2, I’m into the top 4.
Round 4 Jurre with Goblins
My first seven are something like Plains, Swamp, StP, C.Therapy, 2 x Eternal Witness and Elspeth. I mull this hand, my reasoning is that unless I topdeck 2 green mana sources or 1 green and a Goyf, I won’t be able to do much after the first 2 turns... (If anybody would have done otherwise, let me know why). 6 gives me no lands, neither does 5, nor 4. I keep the 4 with 2 StP. I draw my first land on turn 4 when he has more than lethal on the board…
I board in the standard package.
Game 2, I get a pretty decent 7. He makes some green men early on while I play a Top and a Goyf. Top shows me 2 Plagues on the top of my library so I think I’m in good shape when he drops Magus of the Moon. I make an enormous play mistake here. My lands are 1 Plains, 2 duals and a Windswept Heath. In response, I spun my Top to see if there’s was an answer for the Magus, there wasn’t and instead of fetching a Forest in response (which would’ve allowed me to play the second goyf in my hand and gave me another chance for Top to find a solution for the Magus), I said OK… Yep, I sure punted that one.
No top 4 for me today but there are a lot of people with 6 points so I figure I might have shot of top 8 and a prize.
Round 5, Viktor with Goblins
A shot at revenge.
Game 1 we start with a Legacy play out of the book: mountain, Lackey go meets plains, Swords to Plowshares. He gets some other little dudes down but I’m able to Deed the board. I find some discard to take care of his Matron tutors (Ringleader and SGC). Eventually I build a bigger army than his; I had 2 Goyf, a Finks and a Witness. When Recurring Nightmare joined the party, the game was mine.
Anti-Tribal boarding plan (taking out 2 Elspeth, 2 Deed and a Therapy).
Game 2 I land an early Plague and get a Goyf and Witness which brings back a StP. He had a slow start and was never really in this game.
I end up in 8th place and get pre-release Emrakul, foil Xantid Swarm and a booster for my efforts. All 3 teammates are in the top 8 (2 in the top 4) so it was a good tournament for us.

The deck was excellent apart from the 1 game against Goblins but that can happen to any deck. I really like Recurring Nightmare; it was the first time I tried it out and together with Witness it can provide some serious card advantage. Elspeth and Top should be auto-includes in every Rock-deck except a pure aggro one imho.
The only thing I’m considering to change to the deck, is to include the 4th Top over a Cabal Therapy (and obviously the sideboard should be tuned to the meta).

Wow, this turned into a lengthy post. If anybody has any comments/suggestions for the deck, feel free to post.
Thx

publius_aelius

06-08-2010, 10:08 AM

@ zalachan (and damion)

Although I like damion's deck that you played at the tournament in Ljubljana, it's not the direction I would like the Rock to go. I mean, like someone said before – this is not the Rock anymore. Of course Exploration-Crucible combined with Armageddon looks great, but that does not feel „Rockish.“

I'm actually shocked that you managed to beat stax in R1 (a friend of mine) and then lose to Merfolks (I hate 'em). :mad: On the other hand, I simply don't see how Leyline fits in this deck – it so …suboptimal. Reanimator and Dredge will echo it back to your hand, and KoR will be angry at you because you deprive her of her food. :wink:
Regarding Deed – I would most definitely include one more copy because it solves tons of problematic creatures and usually provides card advantage. Deed Rocks! :cool:

@ damion

Thorns are a special case. I like slowing the other decks down so I have a chance, but it's not the best chance. They normally just go for some stuff and solve the thorns. The best thing that could happen would be chaining the thorns (turn 2, 3, 4...). They do, however, give you game vs burn.

Finks give you game vs burn. :wink: How I enjoy playing finks and then flashback therapy against zoo/burn. :cool: (if they play their animals – they get cleaned of the board, if they hold their animals in their hand – they get their hands cleaned rapidly )

@ sdematt

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Phyrexian Arena

BB cost doesn’t trouble you? How many cards do you draw on average with it? I mean - confidant presents a threat - arena does not.

@ zzz
How does Elspeth work in your version? Isn’t she like overkill? I mean – how is she better than KoR (in this deck)? Was that a meta choice? How many times did you manage to cast her?

sdematt

06-08-2010, 11:14 AM

The BB can be a problem sometimes, but usually not often. I prefer Arena since I run a bunch of 3-drops, and taking hits like that off Confidant give me a harder game vs. Zoo, and just makes me worse against aggro. Yes, it does cost 3, but it's only 1 life per turn instead of 2-3, in my experience.

-Matt

ZZZ

06-08-2010, 11:49 AM

@ zzz
How does Elspeth work in your version? Isn’t she like overkill? I mean – how is she better than KoR (in this deck)? Was that a meta choice? How many times did you manage to cast her?

The reason that Elspeth is good in this deck is because she is much harder to be dealt with than your creatures. Apart from The Rock and Landstill builds, there are very few decks packing Vindicate meaning the only way a deck can get rid of Elspeth is by attacking into her. My deck has a lot of ways to deal with creatures (as most Rock builds have) so keeping her alive is much easier as keeping KotR, Goyf or any other critter in play.
Elspeth does many things; she can stall with making a blocker each turn meanwhile ramping up to her ultimate and allowing you to Top into the answer you're looking for; she can break board stalemates; she can speed up your clock; she can provide you with a creature right after you blow the board with Deed, ...

I don't think you should compare her with KotR as she serves a different function imo. Although I'm a big fan of Knight as well, I don't think there's room for him in the list I played. I often stabilize at under 10 life but then take control of the game and usually 1 big beater is enough then.

I've played a list with 4 Knight and 3 Elspeth a couple of months ago which I really enjoy as well. If anybody is interested, I'll post the list.

I think that's the great thing about the Rock, you can build it in so many different ways and tune it for each particular meta (except probably combo heavy...).

@sdematt
Seeing as you play 4 KotR, wouldn't 1 Stronghold be sufficient. I played 2 Wasteland and a Nantuko Monastery as tutor targets in my Knight build. The wasteland is not to disrupt your opponent (although it can win games against mana/colour screwed opponents) but more for annoying lands like Tabernacle, Maze, Factory,...
I'm not a fan of BSA in this deck. 5 mana for a creature that dies to all removal is simply not that amazing in Legacy imo. Isn't 2 Pulse and 4 Vindicate a bit too much?
As for the sideboard; wouldn't an Enlightened Tutor board be good for such a large tournament. It allows you to diversify your sideboard some more. I played this board in my Knight-build last time:
3 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Extirpate
1 Choke
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Runed Halo
1 Chainer’s Edict
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
The tutor can also get your Deeds which is nice against decks you normally don't see a lot but might run into in Seattle like Enchantress and Affinity.
Just some thoughts, let me know what you think.

damionblackgear

06-08-2010, 11:59 AM

ZZZ - Welcome to the party. I like your combo's that you have in there with Nightmare. It's really nice to Sac a token or a finks to get back something else or make them discard. Personally, I would love to see an expansion on that idea with another card that lets you take advantage of those interactions (You're Shreikmaw is one way).

Aelious - I completely feel you on your statements. I did forget about finks. I usually do. He kinda sits in the board (I've been looking for an alternate because of this) but, Finks is amazing at what it does. to be honest though, with my list, you would rather play Thorns in multiples as you're hoping to land an Armageddon or Vindicate on their lands anyway. It's your only real way to win that match. 2 life doesn't quite get there.

to be honest though, I was surprised that Zalachan lost to Merfolk as well. That's why I wanted to know what he boarded. The Stax match isn't as hard as it looks. You usually don't care about what they do and can play their game better than they can. Just don't get locked. That sucks and is game for every deck though *Perfect lock, T1-3Sphere, T2-Stax, T3, Crucible.

Lastly, as you said (and so did I a while ago) my list isn't really Rock anymore (Only in color). It got listed as Rock but I definitely agree that it's not Rock. To be honest the entire gameplay style is different then how Rock plays (or most other decks in 1.5 right now). I stay in this thread because I started with a list from in and have had a strong affinity for this deck but, I'm not gonna talk about my list again in this thread. I'll open a new one later on (Deck was dubbed The Old Republic by a friend *Star Wars Reference*) after I finish writing a primer for it.

sdematt

06-08-2010, 05:30 PM

What would you replace Baneslayer with? I'm trying Finks or Shriekmaw at the moment, but the lifegain I get off her would be helpful against Zoo, even if it does die to removal. Any help here would be good.

I'm also trying Noble Hierarch instead of Birds at the moment. I've usually got enough black, so the extra edge in combat doesn't seem like a bad thing. Also mindtricks the opponent into thinking I'm playing Survival, or Bant colours in general (until I whip out a Bayou, but that could always be for EE on 4 :P)

-Matt

publius_aelius

06-09-2010, 04:40 AM

matt: The BB can be a problem sometimes, but usually not often. I prefer Arena since I run a bunch of 3-drops, and taking hits like that off Confidant give me a harder game vs. Zoo, and just makes me worse against aggro. Yes, it does cost 3, but it's only 1 life per turn instead of 2-3, in my experience.

I understand. It’s only – casting confidant has greater psychological effect on the opponent than arena. I’ve played chess, and one of chess greats – Emmanuel Lasker – once said that chess is a psychological game, and a player who makes greater impact on an opponent’s psyche will probably win. IMHO, the same can be said about MtG. But arena probably suits your deck better because of the reasons you’ve stated, although I wonder about it’s playability against Zoo. You’ll probably be forced to play creatures/removals on turns 3-4-5. Arena as a turn 6 drop is a bit too late vs Zoo, isn’t it?

ZZZ: The reason that Elspeth is good in this deck is because she is much harder to be dealt with than your creatures. Apart from The Rock and Landstill builds, there are very few decks packing Vindicate meaning the only way a deck can get rid of Elspeth is by attacking into her. My deck has a lot of ways to deal with creatures (as most Rock builds have) so keeping her alive is much easier as keeping KotR, Goyf or any other critter in play.
Elspeth does many things; she can stall with making a blocker each turn meanwhile ramping up to her ultimate and allowing you to Top into the answer you're looking for; she can break board stalemates; she can speed up your clock; she can provide you with a creature right after you blow the board with Deed, ...

I admit that I haven’t considered Elspeth as a viable choice for the Rock builds. Maybe because of here prohibitive 2WW cost (and the fact that I didn’t include any cards with cc >3 in my build). But I’ll include one copy and test it. On the other hand, she can be neutralized with Pithing Needle which is quite common in my meta – it also disrupts Deed, which is why I consider playing Crime/Punishment after SB.

ZZZ: I don't think you should compare her with KotR as she serves a different function imo. Although I'm a big fan of Knight as well, I don't think there's room for him in the list I played. I often stabilize at under 10 life but then take control of the game and usually 1 big beater is enough then. I've played a list with 4 Knight and 3 Elspeth a couple of months ago which I really enjoy as well. If anybody is interested, I'll post the list. I think that's the great thing about the Rock, you can build it in so many different ways and tune it for each particular meta (except probably combo heavy...).

You’re right – I prefer KoR because my Rock (or PT Junk for that matter) is more like a beatdown deck, and I simply adore land tutoring (Karakas, Bojuka, Horizon Canopy, Wasteland, etc)

ZZZ: As for the sideboard; wouldn't an Enlightened Tutor board be good for such a large tournament. It allows you to diversify your sideboard some more. I played this board in my Knight-build last time:

I don’t know about the white Tutor. As opposed to Demonic Tutor, I’ve never liked these card disadvantage tutors (this is not based on testing or anything objective – it’s just personal preference). :wink: On the other hand, have you tried Academy Rector as a Enchantment tutor (especially with cabal therapy)? I know – he is expensive to cast – but the enchantment he tutors comes into play for free, which compensates his casting cost. That way you could play only one copy of recurring nightmare.

damion: I completely feel you on your statements. I did forget about finks. I usually do. He kinda sits in the board (I've been looking for an alternate because of this) but, Finks is amazing at what it does. to be honest though, with my list, you would rather play Thorns in multiples as you're hoping to land an Armageddon or Vindicate on their lands anyway. It's your only real way to win that match. 2 life doesn't quite get there.

Ah, right. Thorn has some synergy with Armageddon and is a better choice in a meta full of control/combo. On the other hand, my meta is full of Zoo. :mad:

damion: to be honest though, I was surprised that Zalachan lost to Merfolk as well. That's why I wanted to know what he boarded. The Stax match isn't as hard as it looks. You usually don't care about what they do and can play their game better than they can. Just don't get locked. That sucks and is game for every deck though *Perfect lock, T1-3Sphere, T2-Stax, T3, Crucible.

I don’t know. Chalice on 1 and 2 in first two turns is sick. I’d rather play against Reanimator than vs Stax anytime.

matt: What would you replace Baneslayer with? I'm trying Finks or Shriekmaw at the moment, but the lifegain I get off her would be helpful against Zoo, even if it does die to removal. Any help here would be good.

IMHO finks are so much better than BSA because they 2 (or 4) life prior to the next turn’s attack phase, and can be cast for 1WG or 1WW or 1GG, present card advantage, and do not present such a mana disadvantage in case it gets removed (PtE on Finks is one of his mana for 3 of mine, while BSA is one of his mana for 5 of mine).

matt: I'm also trying Noble Hierarch instead of Birds at the moment. I've usually got enough black, so the extra edge in combat doesn't seem like a bad thing. Also mindtricks the opponent into thinking I'm playing Survival, or Bant colours in general (until I whip out a Bayou, but that could always be for EE on 4 :P)

Well said. I prefer Hierarch also. She is great. I play it in my build and have never regretted. On the other hand, I don’t play so many black cards:

MD:
3x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Diabolic Edict

SB:
4x Extirpate
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Hide/Seek
1x Crime/Punishment

ZZZ

06-09-2010, 05:58 AM

@Damionblackgear: Thx, I don't want to rely to heavily on Recurring Nightmare. It's synergy with Finks and Witness is great but those cards are good on their own. I play the lone Shriekmaw because it's also decent on its own and with Nightmare and Stronghold, I have 2 ways to recur it. It's also my only MD out to Iona on White.
The deck plays as a traditional Rock deck but has a lot of card advantage built into it with Bob, Nightmare, Witness and Deed. I think that if you want to focus more on Nightmare 'combos', you can better try a Survival Rock build.

@sdematt: I'd replace Baneslayer with Elspeth but I just noticed that your build requires BB, GG and WW; I think that's asking to much of your manabase (even with BoP).
If it was me, I wouldn't run the cards requiring double black. Hymn is a fantastic card that can steal games but I think it's place is in a more aggro build running things like Dark Ritual and Tombstalker. A deck that can spends the first turns playing disruption and then throw down a big dude that goes all they way loves Hymn but if that is not your gameplan than targeted discard is better and Hymn is not needed. I also like Phyrexian Arena, I think it is underplayed in Legacy. However I would replace it with Top in your build; you're already quite heavy on 3-drops and Arena requires double black. Top will not provide card advantage like Arena does but it will digg 1 deeper which is relevant as you'll be looking for an answer quite often. In your build you can focus on card quality and Top can come down turn 1 and starts looking for whatever you need turn 2.
If Zoo is troublesome, try Finks; he's a house in that match-up (and in all aggro match-ups actually). You can also play 1 or 2 PtE in the board (or even main if you expect a lot of aggro), against Zoo you want to try to keep Nacatls and Goyfs off the table in the early game so that you can stabilize with your own big dudes at a decent life total.

@Publius_aelius: Yes, please try Elspeth, I'll promise you'll love her :wink:. The WW in the casting cost requires you to make choices. Like I said above, I don't think you can run BB, GG and WW and expect to be able to consistently cast all of those (especially not against decks that attack your manabase). Imo Elspeth is worth running double white.
Elspeth can be Needled but we have a lot of answers for that (Vindicate, Pridemage, Grip) and it means that they haven't put Needle on Top so you should be able to find an answer.
E-tutor is card disadvantage but it allows you to run a broader sideboard. If you know what meta to expect, you're probably better off just running some 3- or 4-offs in your board to improve your bad matchups in that particular meta. If you're going into a large tournament and can face anything, a tutor board can be very useful. Another benefit is that you can diversify your hate; for example if you have a Canonist on the board against ANT, then you can tutor for a Runed Halo so that they can't take out 2 hate pieces with a Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild.

sdematt

06-09-2010, 11:16 AM

In the testing I've done in the past few hours, I'm definitely going to go for Hierarch and Finks. I never realized Finks could be such a beast, mind you, he begs for PtE. This is fine because then my KotR doesn't get a Path :D

You're right about the Arena being a tad slow on that front, I totally agree. The way I see it, and as you do, Top is card manipulation, and not advantage. If I could run both Top and Arena, I totally would. In this deck, however, I'd rather run out a Thoughtseize or Hierarch T1 instead of Top (that's just me).

Top is also much better when playing Confidant; it's basically like cheating. I definitely will consider the switch, as it is a bit more threatening than an enchantment sitting on the board. I'll also consider Top.

At this point, I'm not sure about the board for going to SCG. I'm thinking:

3 Choke - Blue hate in general
4 Leyline - Dredge, Lands, Reanimator. I'm running a Bog main, and me likey :P
2 Extirpate - Dredge, Lands, Reanimator, etc.

And I'm not sure what else. How have you guys found Hide/Seek? Seems good to pick out say, Tendrils out of their deck, but what else do you guys pick?

I'm assuming for a large tournament, E Plague is never a bad thing?

I was also looking at some Fallen Empires tech: "Thelon's Curse". Maybe not in the build, but with Choke, seems like it would wreck 'Folk pretty well.

-Matt

ZZZ

06-09-2010, 11:57 AM

I live in Belgium so I'm not sure what the meta will look like at the SCG events but from what I read here Reanimator, Lands and New Horizons seem to be quite popular together with the traditional decks to beat.

If you can resolve 2 E-plagues against a Tribal deck, it's usually a win so if you have the room in your board, I would definitely play 3 (if possible 4) Plagues.

I think Extirpate is currently the best grave hate. It's better than Crypt/Relic against Reanimator, extirpating an early Loam against Lands is excellent and it's usefull against combo (Pating a card after they've used Mystical Tutor). It's not so good vs Dredge but I think that deck is played less nowadays.

I don't think Hide/Seek is good against combo; many people play either the Saito ANT list which runs 2 Tendrils (and 2 Ad Nauseam) or they run NLS which has Burning Wish. If you want to pack combo hate, I'd go with a combination of Thorn and Canonist (together with Extirpate and Choke).

Thelon's Curse seems too narrow. It'll wreck Merfolk if you have a Choke as well but even if you play 3 of both, how often will that happen and you don't want to spend that many slots on just the 1 matchup.

You should also consider Diabolic Edict with all the drop-a-fatty.dec these days (NO & Survival Bant, Reanimator, Emrakul). I always like 1 or 2 Path to Exile in the board to complement the Swords against Zoo but also against Merfolk (and Goblins to a lesser extent); you need to be able to answer their Lords otherwise they can still fight through a single Plague quite easily.

I've also ran a Ghostly Prison in my E-tutor board; it's good against aggro (especially Merfolk together with Choke) and Dredge.

damionblackgear

06-09-2010, 08:16 PM

Ah, right. Thorn has some synergy with Armageddon and is a better choice in a meta full of control/combo. On the other hand, my meta is full of Zoo. :mad:

Then I would suggest other cards in your 15 that helps with Aggro decks. Good examples would be Finks, Hierarch (Old but still good if that's what you're running into). Wall of Revernce or Perimeter Captain are also a good ones (If you can stomach having another T2 card) It's usually able to stop their team and still able to gain some life (Go Goyf and Knight!). Also, If you're playing the Doran version you can kill a critter in combat. Your entire 15 shouldn't be aggro bound though.

I don’t know. Chalice on 1 and 2 in first two turns is sick. I’d rather play against Reanimator than vs Stax anytime.

Against a deck with vindicate and Deed I wouldn't call that a sick play. You basically kill of one of those (or all) and go to town. Besides, Most control versions of and BGW decks are +2 drops anyway. Most Stax players will remove them as they can be solved to easily by decks with both of these *Deed is a serious threat in their eyes.

---

Thx, I don't want to rely to heavily on Recurring Nightmare. It's synergy with Finks and Witness is great but those cards are good on their own. I play the lone Shriekmaw because it's also decent on its own and with Nightmare and Stronghold, I have 2 ways to recur it. It's also my only MD out to Iona on White.
The deck plays as a traditional Rock deck but has a lot of card advantage built into it with Bob, Nightmare, Witness and Deed. I think that if you want to focus more on Nightmare 'combos', you can better try a Survival Rock build.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you should go overboard on the deck and make it so that if you don't draw the engine you're only an OK deck *Cough*Survival*Cough*. I was attempting to say a little more reliance on the things that are good without the engine wouldn't be that bad. Basically, "Make an engine into an engine without sacrificing your deck." Besides, a second out to Iona isn't a bad thing ;-)

ZZZ

06-10-2010, 07:20 AM

deck *Cough*Survival*Cough*.

LOL, I'm actually trying out the GW Survival build atm :-).

What would you suggest to add to further abuse Nightmare? Witness and Finks seem like the best to me. Something like Fleshbag Marauder would be nice but if I want to have a decent chance of drawing it, I would at least need to run 2 and I really don't want to run more cmc 3 cards and without Nightmare it's quite a situational card.

AggroSteve

06-10-2010, 11:21 AM

i'm right now tinkering with a non-survival-rock-build with nightmares

i am using kitchen finks, witness, fleshbag marauder,and Knight of the Reliquary

i do not remember exactly who brought up espeth + nightmare, funny thing i have to say, i am using the Knight right now to fetch Oran Rief, the Vastewood, to extremely abuse nightmare with finks, + oran rief helps with tarmogoyf stalls

i right now am not using any confidants, sometimes, but rarely i am missing them, but i am satisfied with witness+nightmare+deed for cardadvantage, and knight and divining tops for library manipulation, and my horizon canopys as cantrips

i for my part would definitely opt for knight over espeth, even though the planeswalker is definitely harder to get rid of, but the land toolbox is just extremely convenient. kitchen finks are a house with the fetchable oran rief, and nightmare is awesome together with fleshbag marauders specially in lategame

in my build, basicallyall i did was to replace my confidants with fleshbag marauders, since nightmare was allready in my build, may sound strange, but i have to admit i'm still in testing phase, and sometimes i really miss confidant, but right now the deck fits a little better my playstyle

so to answer your question in short version

kitchen finks
witness
shriekmaw (spot removal which is very nice, and with nightmare partly at instant speed :P)
fleshbag marauder(random removal which can get rid of iona, inkwell, progenitus, and any non-targetable big beater, plus helps against dredge)

are the best creatures suited for abusing nightmare

eventually also

wall of blossoms
wall of omens

sdematt

06-10-2010, 11:29 AM

Wall of Omens should give you some nice card advantage, as well as some Nightmare fodder. Plus, you get a Wall for Lackey, Goyf, etc. Steve, if you want to post your newest list, I'd love to take a look.

-Matt

MrShine

06-10-2010, 02:12 PM

Hey Guys,

Its been a while since I posted, got busy with school and shit but now summer is upon us and magic can once again consume my life.

Firstly - ZZZ - I like the direction you are taking, it is very much along the lines of what I tuned my list to a couple months back. For all those who are wondering, Elspeth is indeed a bomb - I only ever lost once when I resolved one. It manages to be both defensive and offensive as the situation warrants it, jumping a goyf or spamming blockers, and has awesome synergy with Deed. I have played against a few people who overextended into my deed on the table because they thought I would loose her too ;)

What I'd like to say, and what hasn't been brought up lately, is that in my opinion and Rock deck should be playing Natural Order + Progenitus. Now, I know there is a separate thread for it, but in my opinion the simple addition of 4 cards doesnt significantly change the deck, but just gives us a real I WIN button. PLEASE test it, you will not be disappointed.

Anyway, I went over the last few pages to see what I've been missing and jotted down my thoughts on what's been going on. I apologize in advance for the length, but there is alot to say about magic :)

@ Smallpox – seems like a cool idea but the deck would have to be seriously warped to accommodate it… it’s the kind of card where synergy is key. I know it has been beaten to death, but Bloodghast, maybe? Still, has merit vs reanimation/NO/Show and Tell strategies, expecially vs reanimator since it can eat their lands (which they don’t have many of)

@ Reanimator – I have also seen reanimator players naming black, but I guess it’s a good idea since all the ‘tech; outs are black, including Shriekmaw (which is good vs Iona, Emrakul (not reanimator I know), Fleshbag Marauder (Inkwell, Progenitus), Extripate, etc. Most impotantly, though, is that iIona on Black shuts off BOTH Maelstrom Pulse and Vindicate.
As far as Knight goes, its not gonna be relevant vs reanimator in my opinion because once they see you are not blue they will power out the combo fast and Knight comes down too late to race. Without birds, it’s a Turn 4 attack… In terms of Karakas shenanigans, a saavy reanimator player SHOULD bring out inkwell if they see a knight/suspect you are playing karakas… I mean, everyone is playing it these days… I dunno. Its not the worst card but it should by no means be relied upon to swing the match in your favour.
And as far as the cutting white goes, if the reanimator player is good, then they will name black anyway (as evidenced by various persons playtesting experience) so keeping in swords works (its also just the best removal spell in the format, and what you gain from it vs aggro far outweighs having it potentially shutoff by Iona – don’t compromise the deck for a margnial advantage in a matchup that isnt ubiquitous)

@ non-reanimator Combo – while I tend to lump reanimator in with combo, it can be more easily disrupted w/ black therefore its probably a bit better than Storm/Belcher combo. As far as they go, I really don’t think that without a great hand-disruption/goyf hand then this we are HIGHLY unfavoured. NO can steal games if they stumble, so its gives us a chance but still if there is a lot of combo then the Rock is not the right deck to play.
Still, I don’t know what the right type of hate out of the board should be... Teeg or Cannonist seems the best since they can add to a clock. Combined with Mindbreak Trap, which we, as Rock players, really need to consider, there is a sliver of hope…

@ Exploration – this is really interesting. It seems like it has the potential to make up for the High CC control cards with faster mana development to match the efficient tempo decks throughout the format. Coupled with the synergy w/ Cruicible and Geddon, and you have a serious control killer. I’d like to test it but ATM I am developing some other stuff…
What about Enlightnened Tutor as a 1 of in these builds? Substitues as an Exploration T1 and otherwise gets you to you crucible later. Too bad the card disadvantage is exactly what we DON’T need…

@ Goblins – TOUGH matchup in my opinion… I have never won a full match in a tournament. AS far as I see, their efficient creatures and good curve demads immediate response with approximately equivalent resouces from us, where our answers are either on par or cost more mana wise. So, we are losing tempo to stay in the game, at which point Ringleader shows up (he has a nasty habit of coming out even through discard) and proceeds to refill their hand and crush our (my) soul. Even though E Plague is good, its not good enough vs Merfolk to be useful IMO and just takes up sideboard slots that we need for matches that we don’t already have a decent (read: at least 50:50) matchup against. Furthermore, I find that its really only good if we get multiples and get 2 into play before about turn 5, which is a tall order. This also means that we need to run at least 3 in the board to have a shot at seeing them early which therefore takes up valuable sideboarding space. Maybe I’m super unlucky, but this is NOT something I want to get paired against (yet I always seem to…). Otherwise, I have found that for slower builds (and possibly those running Exploration), Elspeth is great as it churns out blocker like no tomorrow… its just a stalling mechanism but it DOES give you time to find Deed/Goyfs. In any case, Not Fun.

@ sideboarding – I mentioned some things in other places but the main point I want to get across is that space is REALLY at a premium for Rock decks; we need 4-5 graveyard Hosers and if we don’t want to punt Combo totally we need something like 3-5 solutions… with grips and paths (to shore up merfolk/zoo) there isnt much left… As for Needle, it seems to me the consensus is Decent but I don’t think I want to put something in the ‘Board unless its REALLY going to make a difference. Also, I'm not convinced Choke is that good either; at least, in my meta there aren't a ton of slow blue control decks anymore and I find choke to be pretty useless vs Merfolk, so its deadweight in my opinion.

@ Recurring Nightmare – It’s a great card, and makes Zoo cry when combined w/ Finks, but is marginal vs CBTop and non-creature based strategies. Again, a geat addition to a control based Rock if we’re expecting lots of Aggro but then again we beat aggro anyway… does that make it Win-more? I’m not sure. In any case, it is a powerhouse in the right context.

@ Sensei’s Divining Top – Absolutely Essential, with or without Confidant. The rock has barely any sources of card advantage so we need to maximize our draws every turn to keep gas coming. I’m sure you are all aware of the amazingness when paired with Bob, so I wont really get into it. Bottom line: Card advantage/selection is paramount to a deck designed to fight so many different strategies at once. Also, don’t forget that Top allows you to float answers in case of hand distruption (something I’ve found useful against reanimator – floating extripate, grab it after being thoughtseized
*note: that being said, my friend has found success using Mirri’s Guile in his Aggro Rock. It filters cards without tying up mana, which can be a real issue with the deck.

@ Dark Confidant – with or without Top, this guy is the nuts, as the raw CA he provides is such a boost that it is no wonder he is constantly countered/removed by saavy players. While he may not have a home in a slower list packing high CC cards, in any list that tops out the curve at 3, the life loss is well worth the advantage gained. My advice to those worrying about the damage – run Finks. He pulls you out of the thoughtseize/bob rut quite well. Additionally, Inquisition of Kozilek over Seize may alleviate the potential problem. While this has been said a thousand times, even if he dies to spot removal that’s one less for you beaters that are actually going to end the game, and if he doesn’t, then he will liekly win you the game due to crazy CA.
Note – to all those worried about the life-loss, I am playing him in a NO build and have yet to have a problem considering the presence of 3x 4cc and 1x 10cc cards.

So those are my thoughts, sorry again if its a little much to digest. To make things easier I'm going to post my current lists in the next post, so please excuse the double post too :P

MrShine

MrShine

06-10-2010, 02:54 PM

Aggro Rock w/ Natural Order

Land (19)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
(1 Dryad Arbor)

Creatures (19)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Progenitus

Spells (21)
3 Sensei's Divining Top/Mirri's Guile*
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughseize/Inquisition of Kozilek**
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Natural Order
2 Umezawa's Jitte

* - Top vs Guile: Not sure about this one, my friend has been testing Mirri's Guile. He says the lack of mana investment is amazing for the deck, as we still get to fix our draws and help out Bob. I haven't tested it myself but next time I play I will for sure. the only thing I see as a downside is the loss of floating tricks with Top.

** - I have a feeling Inquisition will be better than Thoguhtseize in an aggro meta, as the life loss is significant vs zoo. Anything that we miss with IoK we can get later with therapy so I have a feeling it will work well. Thoughtseize is better in a control/landstill meta (although I don't think this is the right build for that meta)

The 2 Jitte are the "Flex slots", but I have a feeling they really want to be equipment to shore up our game vs merfolk, zoo, elves, and goblins.

This list is quite fast, and can have some broken starts along the lines of T1 Birds, T2 Seize/IoK, Therapy, T3 NO. It rapes Blue, and has good game vs aggro. Combo is questionable, but T3 Progenitus is surprisingly effective vs Reanimator.

Sideboard:
2 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Extirpate
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Mindbreak Trap

Control Rock (also with NO :D)

Land (21)
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Treetop Village

Creatures (20)
4 Wall of Roots
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus

Spells (19)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Recurring Nightmare*
2 Elspeth
3 Natural Order

This build is unfortunately a lot slower, and I had to stop playing it because my matches would keep going to time :P. Elspeth is a bomb (and should maybe go to 3); I only lost 1 game when I resolved it. Recurring Nightmare, Vindicate effects are flexible, as are a couple of the creature choices (Shriekmaw is BFF w/ RN). Wall of Roots is amazing vs aggro, has great value vs daze, and accelerates the T3 NO if need be. Its not the best topdeck ever but is good fodder for RN lategame. I was running an Enlightened Tutor board similar to ZZZ which gives multiple copies of hate like Cannonist, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Crypt, etc. and helps you find RN and Deed in aggro matches if need be. EoT tutor into Deed is super fun :) I'm starting to think Knight of the Reliquary should have a home here, as I have been having much success with him in other decks. perhaps if you eschew the NO package he can go in as a 4 of (perhaps with Pridemage over Confidant too if that suits you). This list alot more G/W focused, with just a small black splash for more removal and good board cards (Extirpate). Good game against aggro, but virtually no chance vs combo :P took out discard for more controllish aspects, since it wasnt doing much for me as a 4 of. In a more blue meta I would probably fit it back in. I'd also like to get some more Shriekmaw action in there somehow, probably over a Wall of Roots or something.

I could never get a sideboard I liked with this deck so I'll leave it out for now.

Cheers,

MrShine

AggroSteve

06-11-2010, 06:16 AM

i have to say i love the aggro rock list but also i have to say i do not like progenitus that much even if it is extremely effective, but i have to say if i myself would play progenitus too, i would have a mainboard out without changing the list too much
i think if i would not want to include the hydra i could also play knight or doran in that slot, right?

what about the jitte, why is it a flexible slot, and what would you suggest if i wold not want to play jitte

lately i've been thinking, that if i would keep confidant in my build, i could include enlightened tutor to fetch a divining top if necessary, maybe as addictional tutor targets 1 canonist, 1 jitte, my mainboard deeds

how are you feeling about birds in the aggro list, are they included because of natural order or just to speed up the deck, plus aren't 19 lands a bit insufficient? i am playing 22 lands and that seems about the right number for me(but i'm not playing birds)

and last 2 question, how are theraphys working out for you? lately i've been thinking of adding them maybe to get an extra boost of life out of finks

and aren't you a little more vulnerable to countertop-lists with the aggro rock list, with a little more cc2 spells

ZZZ

06-11-2010, 10:02 AM

Hi Mr. Shine, I agree with a lot of what you're saying and I'd like to add some comments:

Firstly - ZZZ - I like the direction you are taking, it is very much along the lines of what I tuned my list to a couple months back. For all those who are wondering, Elspeth is indeed a bomb - I only ever lost once when I resolved one. It manages to be both defensive and offensive as the situation warrants it, jumping a goyf or spamming blockers, and has awesome synergy with Deed. I have played against a few people who overextended into my deed on the table because they thought I would loose her too ;)

QFT. I'm glad you're as convinced as I am about Elspeth. She belongs in every Rock deck that isn't pure aggro imo.

What I'd like to say, and what hasn't been brought up lately, is that in my opinion and Rock deck should be playing Natural Order + Progenitus. Now, I know there is a separate thread for it, but in my opinion the simple addition of 4 cards doesnt significantly change the deck, but just gives us a real I WIN button. PLEASE test it, you will not be disappointed.

This I do not agree with. While I believe that a Rock deck can support NoPro and it'll be good in there; I don't think every Rock build should play the combo. Elspeth is often an 'I win-button' as well (although most people don't see it immediately as it's not a 10/10 protection from everything Hydra) and has some advantages over NoPro imo: it requires less resources (i.e. no green creature to sac) and it takes up less slots in the deck. We also don't play Brainstorm so can't shuffle Progenitus back in the deck and Edict effects are played more nowadays which makes NoPro worse (esp in a deck that isn't blue).

@ Smallpox – seems like a cool idea but the deck would have to be seriously warped to accommodate it… it’s the kind of card where synergy is key. I know it has been beaten to death, but Bloodghast, maybe? Still, has merit vs reanimation/NO/Show and Tell strategies, expecially vs reanimator since it can eat their lands (which they don’t have many of)

Yep, I agree with you again. I think Smallpox definitely has a lot going for it in today's meta but you can't throw the card into any Rock deck. I think there's definitely a good list to be made with this card (you could probably get some inspiration from the Pox and Trisomy21 threads), Deed and Planeswalkers seem like nice synergy with Smallpox as well.

@ Reanimator – I have also seen reanimator players naming black, but I guess it’s a good idea since all the ‘tech; outs are black, including Shriekmaw (which is good vs Iona, Emrakul (not reanimator I know), Fleshbag Marauder (Inkwell, Progenitus), Extripate, etc. Most impotantly, though, is that iIona on Black shuts off BOTH Maelstrom Pulse and Vindicate.
As far as Knight goes, its not gonna be relevant vs reanimator in my opinion because once they see you are not blue they will power out the combo fast and Knight comes down too late to race. Without birds, it’s a Turn 4 attack… In terms of Karakas shenanigans, a saavy reanimator player SHOULD bring out inkwell if they see a knight/suspect you are playing karakas… I mean, everyone is playing it these days… I dunno. Its not the worst card but it should by no means be relied upon to swing the match in your favour.
And as far as the cutting white goes, if the reanimator player is good, then they will name black anyway (as evidenced by various persons playtesting experience) so keeping in swords works (its also just the best removal spell in the format, and what you gain from it vs aggro far outweighs having it potentially shutoff by Iona – don’t compromise the deck for a margnial advantage in a matchup that isnt ubiquitous)

I think a good Reanimator player, we'll name White with Iona (they might gamble on Black in game 2???) if they go for Iona, I think Empyrial Archangel and Inkwell are also good options against us.
Nevertheless, I agree that Karakas is too narrow, even if you're running Knight (if you're not running Knight, Karakas doesn't make any sense to me). I think we should have a fighting chance against Reanimator but Edict effects (either main or board) are needed.

@ non-reanimator Combo – while I tend to lump reanimator in with combo, it can be more easily disrupted w/ black therefore its probably a bit better than Storm/Belcher combo. As far as they go, I really don’t think that without a great hand-disruption/goyf hand then this we are HIGHLY unfavoured. NO can steal games if they stumble, so its gives us a chance but still if there is a lot of combo then the Rock is not the right deck to play.
Still, I don’t know what the right type of hate out of the board should be... Teeg or Cannonist seems the best since they can add to a clock. Combined with Mindbreak Trap, which we, as Rock players, really need to consider, there is a sliver of hope…

Mindbreak Trap sucks against combo. I sometimes play ANT myself and I don't consider myself a good combo player but even for me it's pretty easy to play around. Heavy discard alone will also win very few games.
The best hate we can run is Thorn and Canonist imo. Doomsday can play through Teeg with a pile with Slaughter Pact or Deathmark.
If you really want to run The Rock in a meta with a lot of combo, you should also run Orim's Chant in the side (together with Thorn/Canonist) but that means you'll be spending about 8 slots only to combo...

@ Goblins – TOUGH matchup in my opinion… I have never won a full match in a tournament. AS far as I see, their efficient creatures and good curve demads immediate response with approximately equivalent resouces from us, where our answers are either on par or cost more mana wise. So, we are losing tempo to stay in the game, at which point Ringleader shows up (he has a nasty habit of coming out even through discard) and proceeds to refill their hand and crush our (my) soul. Even though E Plague is good, its not good enough vs Merfolk to be useful IMO and just takes up sideboard slots that we need for matches that we don’t already have a decent (read: at least 50:50) matchup against. Furthermore, I find that its really only good if we get multiples and get 2 into play before about turn 5, which is a tall order. This also means that we need to run at least 3 in the board to have a shot at seeing them early which therefore takes up valuable sideboarding space. Maybe I’m super unlucky, but this is NOT something I want to get paired against (yet I always seem to…). Otherwise, I have found that for slower builds (and possibly those running Exploration), Elspeth is great as it churns out blocker like no tomorrow… its just a stalling mechanism but it DOES give you time to find Deed/Goyfs. In any case, Not Fun.

The Goblins matchup heavily depends on your build. With the Recurring Nightmare build I played, I consider it 50-50 preboard but heavily in my favour post board. With my previous build (pure control build) the matchup was much worse. The key to the matchup is card advantage imo; if they don't draw Ringleaders or you can keep them off it with your discard, you're in good shape.
I disagree that Plague is not good enough but it is a fact that Merfolk can easily win through 1 Plague with all the Lords they play. Therefore I also board in some extra spot removal in the Tribal matchups. If you want to make Plague effective you'd probably have to spend about 5 sideboard slots on the tribal matches (3 Plague + 2 Enlightened Tutor for example or 4 Plague + an extra Path) but imo that is worth it. I encounter a lot of Goblins and Merfolk; double Plague wins that match and a single one combined with spot removal and big Goyfs/Knights also has a good chance to take the match.
Deed is good vs Merfolk but not so good against Goblins; they have a lot of Gobbo's with cmc 3 or higher and compared with their mana denial, you'd probably have to spend 2 turns to clear the board. Ringleader and Warchief can have them recover a lot faster than we can. I usually board out Deed vs Gobs. I also always board out Elspeth against Merfolk and Goblins, I find her usually a bit too slow in that matchup.

@ sideboarding – I mentioned some things in other places but the main point I want to get across is that space is REALLY at a premium for Rock decks; we need 4-5 graveyard Hosers and if we don’t want to punt Combo totally we need something like 3-5 solutions… with grips and paths (to shore up merfolk/zoo) there isnt much left… As for Needle, it seems to me the consensus is Decent but I don’t think I want to put something in the ‘Board unless its REALLY going to make a difference. Also, I'm not convinced Choke is that good either; at least, in my meta there aren't a ton of slow blue control decks anymore and I find choke to be pretty useless vs Merfolk, so its deadweight in my opinion.

I agree SB space is at a premium; therefore I see 2 options: or you try to make a good metagame estimate and focus your sideboard on that or you play an E-tutor board so you can play a more diverse board.
Like I said above, if you want to make combo into a decent matchup, you probably need to spend 6 to 8 slots to it (apart from grave hate and Choke) and then you need to ask yourself: is it worth it?
I use Choke mostly against CounterTop builds. It also comes in against ANT. I do not board it in against Merfolk (unless I run Ghostly Prison in the board as well).

@ Recurring Nightmare – It’s a great card, and makes Zoo cry when combined w/ Finks, but is marginal vs CBTop and non-creature based strategies. Again, a geat addition to a control based Rock if we’re expecting lots of Aggro but then again we beat aggro anyway… does that make it Win-more? I’m not sure. In any case, it is a powerhouse in the right context.

I don't think it's win-more. Nightmare can do so many things; combined with Witness it can ensure you draw removal each turn, it can make their removal useless, it can have a big impact on combat, ... I think it's an excellent card against aggro and aggro-control and can be quite usefull against controll decks as well. It is (nearly) dead in the combo matchup (atlhough not in the Dredge mathchup) but most decks have dead cards maindeck against combo.

@ Sensei’s Divining Top – Absolutely Essential, with or without Confidant. The rock has barely any sources of card advantage so we need to maximize our draws every turn to keep gas coming. I’m sure you are all aware of the amazingness when paired with Bob, so I wont really get into it. Bottom line: Card advantage/selection is paramount to a deck designed to fight so many different strategies at once. Also, don’t forget that Top allows you to float answers in case of hand distruption (something I’ve found useful against reanimator – floating extripate, grab it after being thoughtseized
*note: that being said, my friend has found success using Mirri’s Guile in his Aggro Rock. It filters cards without tying up mana, which can be a real issue with the deck.

QFT, Top is what makes Rock viable imo. I ran 4 in my previous build and I'm trying to fit the 4th one in the Nightmare-build as well but I'm not sure what to cut.
I can see Mirri's Guile being good in an aggro build but I haven't tested it.

@ Dark Confidant – with or without Top, this guy is the nuts, as the raw CA he provides is such a boost that it is no wonder he is constantly countered/removed by saavy players. While he may not have a home in a slower list packing high CC cards, in any list that tops out the curve at 3, the life loss is well worth the advantage gained. My advice to those worrying about the damage – run Finks. He pulls you out of the thoughtseize/bob rut quite well. Additionally, Inquisition of Kozilek over Seize may alleviate the potential problem. While this has been said a thousand times, even if he dies to spot removal that’s one less for you beaters that are actually going to end the game, and if he doesn’t, then he will liekly win you the game due to crazy CA.
Note – to all those worried about the life-loss, I am playing him in a NO build and have yet to have a problem considering the presence of 3x 4cc and 1x 10cc cards.

I even ran Bob once next to 4 Tombstalker (with 3 Top). I probably lost 1 or 2 games with flipping an 8 cc off of Bob but I won tons of games on the card advantage he provided.
However I don't consider him an auto-include. I don't run him in my control build because the avg cmc is too high.

One more thing: I will never run Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize (not being able to hit things like FoW, Ad Nauseam, Jace, Elspeth, Ringleader,... is much worse than the life loss imo). If I were to run targeted discard in addition to Thoughtseize, I'd probably go for Duress over Inquisition (unless in a build with Nightmare where Therapy is needed) as we already have many ways of dealing with creatures.

sdematt

06-11-2010, 07:40 PM

I've moved one bog main, and now my sideboard is looking like this:

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
3 Choke
3 Engineered Plague
3 Flex Slots

I could run 3 Edict, 3 Fleshbag Marauder, 3 Path, 2 More Finks + 1 Fleshbag, 2 Sphere of Law (Damn slow though). What would you guys say? I'm leaning towards either 3 Diabolic Edict or 3 Path.

-MAtt

AggroSteve

06-12-2010, 04:39 AM

i would use edicts, since they are also usefull in the dredge matchup, by sacrificing your own dudes, and is obviously better against reanimator

but i have to say i do not like the engineered plagues, i think they have to little impact on the board/game and its rare to get 2 of em in play, plus i think we are to slow to efficiently use them against tribal decks since we do not use dark rituals, and very few lists are running birds.
if your list(do not remember which one it was) has mana accelleration its fine in that case it should work

sdematt

06-12-2010, 12:23 PM

The thing is, I think it's one of those things I can't leave out. It takes out Vampire Hexmage, BoB's, name Cats on Zoo, against Goblins it's amazing, Merfolk it isn't bad, hoses Counter-Top Thopter (which I've seen more and more lately), and name Zombie or Horror on Dredge. It's never totally devastating, but it helps. I'm running 3 Noble Hierarch as mana acceleration.

Yeah, I'm thinking Diabolic is the way to go.

Thanks guys!

-Matt

zalachan

06-12-2010, 03:31 PM

@ zalachan (and damion)

Although I like damion's deck that you played at the tournament in Ljubljana, it's not the direction I would like the Rock to go. I mean, like someone said before – this is not the Rock anymore. Of course Exploration-Crucible combined with Armageddon looks great, but that does not feel „Rockish.“

I'm actually shocked that you managed to beat stax in R1 (a friend of mine) and then lose to Merfolks (I hate 'em). :mad: On the other hand, I simply don't see how Leyline fits in this deck – it so …suboptimal. Reanimator and Dredge will echo it back to your hand, and KoR will be angry at you because you deprive her of her food. :wink:
Regarding Deed – I would most definitely include one more copy because it solves tons of problematic creatures and usually provides card advantage. Deed Rocks! :cool:

Hi there, nice to see someone else post about that tournament, it has been a very nice day and i really hope that we meet again in such great numbers :D
Btw, what deck did you play?

About the damion deck:
I wanted to play Rock, playtested a bunch of different sorts of Rock and Survival lists. All of them felt suboptimal to me and i couldn't get Retainers, so i skipped plans to play Survival alltogether.
I don't consider damions list as a Rock, but rather as a deck that can mimic its' playstile very well when needed. It's still board control, some advantages/sinergies, but has that lategame oomph in Armageddon, which turns off topdecks, which are traditionally bad for heavy discard strategies.
About the R1 opponent- he was very nice guy. I think he drew a bunch of semi-dead cards against me (i.e.: Prison, Magus, Chalice) which gave me a lot of time. 3rd game he didn't get to cast Geddon before i landed Deed, so he had some bad luck there.
About Merfolk: I hate that wimpy deck, too, but i punted and i deserved to loose. Playtesting is also tech i didn't use beforehand. I feel the deck is very strong against fishes.
About Leylines: I agree, they feel suboptimal, i would rather play a combination of Trap/Faerie/Crypt or something. It's true, Leyline is stronger, but i just dont like the feel of it, at least in that deck.
About bounce vs. Leyline: Reanimator needs to Mystical for answer most of the time and Dredge needs to draw it. Not exactly hard to do, i know, but in the meantime, they are forced to play fair.

danpo

06-13-2010, 02:12 AM

Saturday I went 4-1-1 at the Grand Prix trial at TNLG in Nashville, placing 2/11 with this:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Serra Avenger
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Aether Vial
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland

SB:
2 Path to Exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I beat Reanimator three times (!) as well as Merfolk and lost to New Horizons in the finals. There was a round four ID against U/W tempo in there because that match-up seemed unfun for both of us.

Some thoughts on the cards:

- Mother of Runes is fantastic, especially in conjunction with Basilisk Collar. I took four or five hits from a Sphinx of the Steel Wind by racing it with a Collared Goyf protected by Mom, and then lived long enough to find mana to cast and equip Serra Avenger and further top-deck Swords to Plowshares.
- Maelstrom Pulse didn't show up that often, but I did kill two massive Terravores with one against New Horizons, which was cool. Plus I like not having all my removal in one color, so I can get around both Iona naming White and the pro-green on Sphinx.
- I only got to Wastelock Reanimator via Knight of the Reliquary once, and then also naturally in the above-mentioned game involving the Collar, which was against Eli, plus also ridiculous.
- Be it resolved that sticking Dark Confidant just rules basically always. See also: Aether Vial.
- Do not board out Gaddock Teeg against Merfolk; they board in Submerge. Also, did you realize you can Submerge a motherfucker in response to its controller cracking a fetchland? Lucas took me to school on that one.
- Awkward mana hurt me a few times against New Horizons. So did my inability to remain focused after five rounds of Magic when I'm late for a date. Anyway to shore up that match-up probably I should add a second plains, and/or cut a Bayou for the third Savannah.

Bottom line, for my trouble I won 14 packs of WWK (Jace lottery, haven't opened 'em yet) plus a Grindstone and All Is Dust. Hoo ray. Hooray for some guys.

-Dan

therorschach

06-13-2010, 08:10 PM

danpo, I have been running a very similar deck myself. I was playing uw tempo and realized that my favorite part of that deck was Vial/Mother of runes/avenger/jitte, but i wanted something like Dark Confidant in that deck so bad. so I tried to port it over to bgw.

3 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Serra Avenger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Eternal Witness
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sword of light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Aether Vial
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Savannah
1 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

I do like your build, and i might do some tweaking now that I see someone is doing well with the same shell. The thing I am really liking about yours is the Teeg in where I have witness. Witness is not always that thrilling, but it sometimes gets a clutch Seize or StP. Teeg usually comes in from the board, but you are probably more correct in be somewhat pre-boarded for the bad matchups. I should have a report from this month soon.

danpo

06-14-2010, 03:38 PM

Rorschach,
Yeah, I prefer this set-up over U/W because I think it's a lot less demanding to play Thoughtseize and KotR correctly all day than to consistently time Force of Will and Wayfarer perfectly.

Anyway, how has Stronghold been for you? Do you find yourself fetching it up with KotR? When does it shine, and do you worry about hitting your colors, esp. against decks packing Stifle or Sinkhole?
I made a mistake against New Horizons, boarding Teeg out on the rationale that the only thing in N.H Teeg affects is FOW, but of course in reality they board in extra copies of Engineered Explosives, and if Teeg can keep him off of those you stand a much better chance. I wanted to board Crypts in as well to weaken his Knights and Terravores but I wasn't sure what to take out, or if it was worth it. I was also bringing Path in, obviously. Thoughts?

Also, you're playing Sword of Light&Shadow over Fire&Ice - How come? Has it proven itself and if so where? I was playing SoFI but found it very clunky and not worth the trouble. Often I wished it was SoLS.
What's your board look like?
Have you tested against Storm Combo at all and how's that match-up look?

Have fun.
-Dan

therorschach

06-14-2010, 10:32 PM

Stronghold, SoLS and Witnesses were additions I made because alot of people in the area play merfolk, baseruption, dreadstill and other heavy blue control decks with many counterspells. I found myself running out of gas often and wanting to be able to recycle when we ended up in late game situations. the traditional control motive of "waste your resources and beat you with the last threat standing" was basically what i kept running into. SoLS has performed amazingly so far. I like it almost as much as jitte most times, i would fetch it as often as jitte if it were 2cc and 2 equip but alas, it is not. Witness has been kind of a let down. GG can be hard to come by most times, and a 2/1 is nothing to write home about. the best times are when it gets me a clutch StP or Pulse. I had vindicate in the deck before, and I would much prefer it still, but Iona becomes a problem then. Stronghold is a 50/50 thing. Sometimes i find it at the right time, and sometimes i find myself needing a black sourse and drawing this to add injury to insult. Seeing Stifle + Wasteland has been a bitch and a half too, but i can't see much way around it with 3 colors. i could up the basics, but that just eats slots for utility lands. Storm combo is not too fun. aggressive mulliganing is the best in that respect. I mull to a seize unless as far as down to 5. i run a Tutor package in the sb and that has been useful most times, with the added benefit of Etutor fetching Vials and Tops as well. I would love to fit 3 Duress in the sideboard somehow, but i am at a loss to find the best way to do that

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel Of sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
2 Deathmark
2 Pernicious Deed

alot of games has been won with Mother of Runes, Serra Avenger, and Jitte all active. i feel like more sources of lifegain would be beneficial too, because confidant provides so much advantage, and yet without a Top, he sometimes bites me too hard. I would Like Kitchen Finks, but would probably have to take out the Witnesses. i guess it is testing time.

sdematt

06-15-2010, 07:33 PM

Back fresh from SCG Seattle! I didn't end up playing Rock, I played White Stax instead, due to my friends needing a bunch of stuff out of the deck to play. Oh well.

But, you can see me in the video! Huzzah!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12Xb7OUcO5E&feature=player_embedded

-Matt

AggroSteve

06-21-2010, 03:01 PM

hi guys, what do you think of the banning of mystical tutor, would help us a lot i would think, is anyone allready thinking of adjusting his board accordingly`?

i still have my 4 thorn of amethyst in the board, but since combo will now become less popular i think i can devote those slots for other mathups

could anyone list to me all the matchups that The Rock has generally problems against, so i can do a little thinking which cards would be the best suited for these slots

maybe needle, maybe .... don't know

sdematt

06-21-2010, 07:25 PM

Mystical Tutor has replacements, so combo and Reanimator are not going to just "fall off the radar," so to speak. Personal tutor, Lim Dul's Vault, and a few others are already replacing Mystical Tutor. I wouldn't drop the slots from your board just yet. They are 2/5 decks to beat, you know.

This does help us, however. It makes combo and Reanimator, a) less consistent, b) not as fast. This is a very good thing. We can now prey on this by either getting more disruption in to take the combo apart, or get there for enough beats to make a resolved Ad Nauseum or Reanimate very risky. Does this help us? Most definitely. Put the combo hate back in the crap box? I don't think so.

For bad matchups, the Rock is horrible against very fast Aggro combined with Burn, namely Zoo, and for some builds, Goblins. How do we deal with it? Kitchen Finks is ridic against Zoo, as is Sphere of Law, Engineered Plague (against Goblins), and a few others. There's not much you can do about this because the Rock is designed to crush Aggro-Control, Countertop, Merfolk (at times), and every other midrange deck. We're weak to Combo and Burn, but I still think that leaves us in a better position than we were a week ago :D

-Matt

AggroSteve

06-21-2010, 09:26 PM

actually i do not think finks are enough for the zo or goblin matchup, actually i was able to land 2 finks in one game, but both simply got paths against zoo, against goblins they are way better.
a card that would crush zoo and burn would be pulse of the fields, actually if some sideboard slots would open up i thought of playing it as a 2 of, it would help a lot against these two matchups, specially because its instant too
otherwise i was thinking of adding the stoneforge mystic package instead of confidant because more and more i get dissatisfied with confidant, and the equipment package would again help with our problematic mathups by gaining life with jitte and SoLaS, and shooting down all those small goblins with SoFaI and jitte
plus with the equipment package almost every creature we have is becoming a serious thread, cause we can just walk through without even caring about opponents creatures (except goyf, but even opponents goyfs will be smaller than ours if ours is equipt)

and i think i will replace my inquisitions of kozilek/thoughtsieze with cabal theraphys (right now playing 3/3 split of inquisition and thoughtsieze)
the theraphy woulb be extremely strong with finks and witness if i can recurr them with SoLaS

what would you think of these ideas?

sdematt

06-21-2010, 10:09 PM

I personally don't like the equipment route, as it has to be built around. If you're building A stoneforge Mystic Rock, then go for it, as there are many advantages to it. But, I wouldn't say go stick some Mystics into any Rock deck and you'll automatically win.

Finks isn't enough, but it does help the matchup against Zoo considerably. I'm not saying I love losing to Zoo, but there's only so much you can do to shore up bad matchups. I'd say add Chalice of the Void in the board , as Chalice on 1 basically screws them over until they hit Pridemage. I've found when I ran Chalice and Needle in the board, it was all I basically needed (Needle on Pridemage, Chalice on 1/2)

Pulse of the Fields seems interesting, but it's double white to play, which may be a bit tricky (at least for me). But, if you're already running Stoneforge, I'm assuming double white isn't going to be a huge deal.

-Matt

AggroSteve

06-22-2010, 05:57 AM

i will try to adjust my decklist a bit, and later on i will be posting my current list (though its still in testing phase), but i have to say that my sideboard will probably be just a pile of cards

so, here is my current list i am testing

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Tombstalker
2 Eternal Witness

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

list is still not optimised, what would you suggest? (the singleton tombstalker could also be the 3rd witness)

sdematt

06-22-2010, 01:46 PM

Personally, I like the list. However, I despise Stoneforge Mystic (for my own reasons, mind you), but in this build, it looks pretty great. First thing I'd say is get rid of the Ravnica duals. Two reasons: They'll be rotating out of Extended in 3 months, so cash out now while you can. Second: Revised duals are much better, and their prices have stabilized. Savannah and Scrublands in played condition can be picked up for ~$30 (NM will be 35ish) and Bayous are ~$35. They'll always hold their value, and they'll improve your consistency quite significantly. Also, you won't die to Zoo as easily.

Other than that, keep the singleton Tombstalker, it can be a real surprise in the middle or the end of the game. Plus, he can't be removed as easily (he's black, you know), and sometimes you won't get, or will have used your 2 Eternal Witnesses.

I like your list, it's a little more aggro oriented. I may steal this and substitute my own changes in :P

-Matt

danpo

06-22-2010, 10:56 PM

I think this deck's woes against fast-aggro are somewhat overstated: I faced Goblins twice in Atlanta, winning both matches with this list:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridgemage
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Basilisk Collar (!)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
7 Fetch
7 Dual
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Extirpate
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Kitchen Finks

Kitchen Finks are indeed a beautiful thing, but Stoneforge for Jitte was astounding against Gobs as well.
Obviously I need to test my updated list against Zoo before Columbus, but some things I'll be looking into are 'How painful is losing equipment to Pridemage,' and 'How awesome is Mom against a deck of like 20+ percent point removal?' I can imagine boarding Thoughtseize out for another Jitte and either Finks or Path to Exile (my post B/R board is in flux). Thoughts?

Another match-up I'm wondering about is New Horizons. I've only played against it once, and I lost both post-board games in part to my own careless plays. Still, our fragile manabase is vulnerable, my list is especially susceptible to Explosives at two, and their Knights are often just bigger thanks to Horizon Canopy, plus their Terravores tend to outclass our smaller dudes.
Before the B/R list change, I'd actually made up my mind to try boarding Aven Mindcensor to weaken their Knights (as well as diversify my curve against Explosives and give me an airborne equipment-carrier; you know, in addition to slapping fetchlands, Entomb, Infernal Tutor, Survival of the Fittest, Goblin Matron, Enlightened and of course Mystical Tutor all across the mouth).
Anyway, thoughts on the match-up and boarding for it?
And at what point do ya'll figure New Horizons gets big enough it's no longer worth it for us to run Wasteland? If their Knights are bigger, they're checking the format's manabase better than we are, and our Wastelands are just exposing to further Stifle shenanigans and boosting their Terravores, I think it's a valid question.

Last thing for now: the buzz is that 43-lands and Death&Taxes both stand to game from the B/R shift. Where's that put us?

Have fun.
-Dan

sdematt

06-23-2010, 12:34 AM

It depends on the build that's dying to Gobbos. My build runs a higher, more controlling curve, and therefore is a tad weaker to Goblins. The aggro oriented Rock builds, as you said, won't have a ton of problems.

As for New Horizons, I've faced the decks a few times. Stifle is annoying, but we usually pack more removal than they have counters. It's more worrying about when they have more responses than you have answers. I think the key to this matchup is blowing up their crap, like Crucible. Terravore is also a huge problem, but both Terravore, Tarmogoyf, and KoTR both have zero protection in that deck; they're not running Crop Rotation into Sejiri Steppe, or some shenanigans like that. I think as long as you keep the pressure on with your own creatures, and hose their yard post-board, you should be alright. I'm running Knight and Bog main, so it isn't too bad.

Mind you, running three EE isn't great for any deck to face, but you just have to make it undesirable for them to blow it. If you're running a ton of 3-drop threats like they are, chances are the Explosives aren't going to go off (as far as I know, they don't run Stronghold or Eternal Witness like we do). I'm more concerned about a Stifle on my Deed, or a Stifle on a key KoTR search.

Regarding Mindcensor, the guy is a freaking house. I was playing him in my Armageddon Stax board, and he was king. I like the idea of him in the board for your build. Give it a try and tell us how it is :P

-Matt

AggroSteve

06-24-2010, 04:50 AM

@ sdmatt: thanks for the comment on the list, and yeah it really sucks losing to zo just because of the ravnica duals

but there are some things i do not like about my list, i am not sure if i should keep the wastelands or cut them in favor of more basics

and next thing is, i still haven't got the maelstrom pulses, i am still playing deed in this slot, what would you think of it, or should there be the pulses in a more aggro oriented deck?

sdematt

06-24-2010, 12:09 PM

Considering you're playing a bunch of <3 drop creatures with a ton of equipment, I don't think deed is the way to go without a bunch of recursion. Pulse is an amazing card. It kills Goblin tokens, Dredge Zombies, Thopter Tokens, and blows other crap up. I'd say go for Pulses. Plus, they're going to be really cheap once they rotate out of standard in a few months. :D

Also, I noticed you have a bunch of recursion, so Deed is playable here. But, you're usually blowing Deed at 2, to kill Goyf and such, but it'll also destroy your equipment as said before. Again, I'd say go with Pulse.

Regarding Wasteland, I think a one-of can be amazing. Against that Glacial Chasm, Kor Haven, Maze of Ith, etc. it can be devastating. 2 is still fine, but I'd say maybe add another basic, just to be sure.

-Matt

sdematt

06-25-2010, 12:31 AM

So, another tournament report from me! We had a small 6 man tournament with an 8-5-4-1-1-1 payout. I didn't do amazingly well, but my opponents either drew the nuts or I screwed up.

The Deck:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Noble Hierarch

4 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of K.
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Phyrexian Arena

Board:
3 Plague
3 Choke
4 Leyline
2 Extirpate
3 Diabolic Edict

Round 1: Dredge
Game 1: Almost had the win here. It was a drawn out game where I managed to hit a Bog and slow him down. Hit the Knight one turn too slow, and I had to block a 16/16 troll to save me from dying. So close.
Game 2: I steamroll the crap out of him keeping a hand with Leyline, Goyf, Land, Land, Hierarch, Vindicate, Swords. I draw into Deed. Enough said.
Game 3: I should've kept my opening hand, but it had 2 Lands, no Leyline, and solid otherwise. I mull into a hand of 5 lands and a Goyf. I didn't want to go to 5, and time was running out. He drew the stone cold nuts and blew me out turn 2 or 3.

In: 4 Leyline, 2 Extirpate, 3 Plague.
Out: 4 Hymn, 2 T/s, 2 Inquisition, 1 E. Wit

0-1

Round 2: Lands
Game 1: He goes first and Manabonds into Port, Wasteland, double Factory, Ghost Quarter, and a mana producer. I die.
Game 2: I Leyline him, then Deed away his Manabond. I destroy Maze and eventually get there after a half hour.
Game 3: It goes back and forth, with him eventually setting Chalice at 3 with Bridge on the Board. I can't get there, so we draw.

0-1-1

Round 3: ANT
Game 1: He goes first, Land, Petal, pass. I Thoughtseize, he allows, and I take infernal Tutor. He draws into the win a turn or two later.
Game 2: I thoughtseize, he brainstorms and hides Ritual. He goes off second turn.

0-2-1

All in all, a decently horrible night. I'm freaking glad Mystical is getting banned. I hope to see less ANT, but it'll give rise to more Iggy/Fetchland Tendrils, I think. Oh well. I got a pack of RoE for my efforts, and sold my Momentous Fall I opened. Ouch.

All in all, I'm still happy with the deck, it's just the matchups were pretty crap for me. Dredge was so close to being a win, and Lands I was close if time was on my side. ANT I basically had no chance.

-Matt

ZZZ

06-25-2010, 06:16 AM

@sdematt; against Dredge: game 2 on the play, I would keep the targeted discard in. If you can start by taking away their discard outlet, you're usually in good shape.

sdematt

06-25-2010, 10:35 AM

I see your point, but pretty much after that first turn, the targeted discard is utter crap (unless you hit Careful study/Breakthrough). I took it out because it's really good at first, and becomes less so as the game goes on, and I wasn't sure what else to cut. I'm sure I could cut E. Wit, and perhaps the Arenas, but I like having the drawing power vs. Dredge. But, I'll have to practice! :D

-Matt

Plague Sliver

06-25-2010, 10:29 PM

Nice report sdematt.

The 3x Noble Hierarch seems strange. This deck has no cantripping/draw... if you need the early mana accel why not run 4? To me it seems like you either run 4x or 0x.

sdematt

06-25-2010, 11:57 PM

You coming out to the Stronghold tomorrow, James? Around 12-1pm?

I'm already at 60, and I dont "need" 4, persay. I can survive without it, but I also don't know what to cut.

-Matt

dyzzy

06-29-2010, 11:48 PM

I just redesigned my Rock list and wanted some input:

Lands (22):
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures (19):
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Tombstalker

Spells (19):
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse (only have 2 Vindicates, subbed in a Pulse for one, but I feel like Pulse has some good uses)
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Umezawa's Jitte

SB: (very half-assed, wanted to have a toolbox but don't really know how to pull it off well)
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Engineered Plague
1x Choke
1x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Krosan Grip
2x Diabolic Edict

sdematt

06-30-2010, 12:32 AM

First of all, we have another one joining the dark side of The Rock! Excellent!

Secondly, so far, nice list!

2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures (19):
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Tombstalker

Spells (19):
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse (only have 2 Vindicates, subbed in a Pulse for one, but I feel like Pulse has some good uses)
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Umezawa's Jitte

You seem to be going to the Aggro plan, so for that, your creature base seems solid. I think Qasali Pridemage is good, but I'd rather have more fatties. I'd consider Doran, or possibly running 3 Paths as well. You up your chances vs. Tribal and Zoo, and Qasali or similar effects can be run in the Side.

Pulse vs. Vindicate. Both are good in their own way, and I always suggest running both, with a favour towards the Vindicate. Why? It blows up lands, which can be terribly problematic. Maze of Ith, Volrath's Stronghold, your opponents Basics, etc. can be strategically important targets which Pulse can't hit. Can pulse take out 5 Goyfs? You bet it can. Goblin Tokens? Yes. Plus, it doesn't get hosed by Iona on white.

I like the fact you're running Top and Confidant. It's like cheating.

Jitte seems good. You're blowing crap up and getting there. Therefore, Jitte seems good. Plus, it allows you to blow up other problematic Jittes.

Now, the real question is whether you want to run the Finks. They'll improve your Zoo match, but you can also play other fatties or more removal. It's up to you and your Meta.

4-of Wasteland: I'd cut this back to 3, and add a Karakas. You're decently double black/coloured mana intensive (Hymn, Tombstalker), and I think Wasteland could screw you over a bit. Plus, you can fetch Karakas to kill Iona. Alternately, I'd say run a 1-of Bojuka Bog. Solves your black mana hunger, and decimates Reanimator/Ichorid/Lands, which are prevalent.

Sideboard: Don't run a bunch of nasty one-of's unless you're playing 4 Enlightened Tutor. A couple of things. Combo is going to be a horrid matchup, even with your amount of discard. They can just hide key spells with Brainstorm. You need to pack some solid combo hate in the form of Gaddock Teeg/Thorn of Amethyst. I suggest multiples of each.

If your Meta is terribly counter-top heavy, I suggest Deed/Krosan Grip.
If you're running into a ton of Dredge, Leyline of the Void could help you out, if you're also running Mainboard Bog.
Explosives seems bad, as you have no way to recur it.
Plague is good, but you'll have to test and see whether you need it or not.
Choke is always good, with all the Blue running around. You kill Merfolk, Thopter, and a bunch of decks that play blue.
If you're really having Goblin trouble, you may want to give Tivadar's Crusade a try :P

All in all, you're on the right track. I really like the list. Keep it up!

-Matt

ZZZ

06-30-2010, 06:11 AM

@Dyzzy - I'm not too sure about KotR and Tombstalker in the same deck; haven't you had occasions when you had to shrink a Knight in order to cast a Tombstalker. If the opponent then has the answer for your Tombstalker, you put yourself in a pretty poor position.
Also if you're running Knight, I think you should run 8 fetches at least (maybe -1 Swamp, -1 Waste for 2 more fetches).
I would also run at least 1 more Top, it's probably the best card in the deck.

As far the SB, sdematt is right. If you want to run a pure tutorboard, you should either run 1 more tutor or increase the number of cards you want to board in for certain matchups. Against combo for instance, 1 Thorn isn't going to get you anywhere.

If the meta will shift as people predict (i.e. more aggro), I think Finks is a great option. I'm currently testing them as a 4-off in my build.

AggroSteve

06-30-2010, 10:25 AM

finks are awesome, i am playing them as 4 off, and i will never cut them again, i just love them, specially against aggro decks, they slow down every opposing aggrodeck for 2 turns plus you get 4 life out of em most of the time (expect against zoo, due to paths)

ZZZ - i think KotR and Tombstalker do fit in the same deck, actually i am playing both to, but tombstalker just as a 1 off (and addictionally to the 8 fetchs i am playing 3 horizon canopy and 1 wasteland so my knight won't become that small)

dyzzy

06-30-2010, 11:32 AM

First of all, we have another one joining the dark side of The Rock! Excellent!
Actually I've been playing Rock for a while, it just always took a backseat to Merfolk. I think, in concept, Rock is my favorite deck archetype. I just randomly decided to make some changes last night, which is why I posted.

@Dyzzy - I'm not too sure about KotR and Tombstalker in the same deck; haven't you had occasions when you had to shrink a Knight in order to cast a Tombstalker.
Well, isn't that true with Goyf and Stalker as well? Anyway, I have not actually seen both cards in the same game yet (literally only put them in together last night and only goldfished a few test games).

I could see cutting a Waste for another fetch, but I don't know about cutting a swamp (I wanted to have 2 basic swamps for Hymn and Stalker, but maybe I only need the one basic?)

SB: yeah, I know it's a mess. Maybe I should just abandon the tutorboard and make it a real board instead.

ZZZ

06-30-2010, 11:53 AM

Well, isn't that true with Goyf and Stalker as well? Anyway, I have not actually seen both cards in the same game yet (literally only put them in together last night and only goldfished a few test games).

I could see cutting a Waste for another fetch, but I don't know about cutting a swamp (I wanted to have 2 basic swamps for Hymn and Stalker, but maybe I only need the one basic?)

No, it's not entirely true, Tombstalker and Knight both rely on your own graveyard while Goyf also takes your opponent's graveyard into account.

I also like having a basic for each required colour within the casting costs but fetch is the easiest way to grow your Knight; maybe you can shave off one of the duals, a Scrub perhaps although I'd rather go with 1 of the Swamps.

Arsenal

06-30-2010, 12:25 PM

How do you guys feel about running Stoneforge Mystic when already equipment? I currently run a 2/2 Stoneforge & Jitte split and have been pretty happy overall, although the few times I have an active Jitte and draw a Stoneforge Mystic, it's a dead draw, which is quite painful in deck that doesn't have the luxury of blue cantrips/shuffles/brainstorms/etc.

danpo

06-30-2010, 02:18 PM

Arsenal,
I play an aggro/fishy list with Aether Vials and lots of two-drops and I love running a Stoneforge/gear package. However, running just two Mystics and two Jittes seems a bit awkward because it sets you up for redundant/useless draws.
For awhile I was playing two Mystics, 1 Jitte, 1 Basilisk Collar and 1 Sword of Fire and Ice. SoFI cost too much and has to connect to trigger so I was never impressed with it, and drawing a second Mystic with no gear left worth searching for wasn't too fun. So now I've cut down to one Mystic, one Basilisk Collar and one Jitte, with an extra Jitte in the board for like Zoo and tribal.
And I've said this before about Basilisk Collar, but to reiterate, it is fantastic. Deathtouch lets you trade random shitbags for opposing fatties and the lifelink allows you to race games where you should have no business racing.

-

Re: board options for Zoo and tribal:
I've gone back and forth on Kitchen Finks and Path to Exile. I really like the option of killing Merfolk's lords outright and cheaply with Path, especially perhaps during combat to screw their math. Meanwhile trading Finks for Nacatl or Kird Ape or whatever, gaining 4 life along the way, and still having a 2/1 is really appealing for Zoo. So. Thoughts? Pros/cons? Is this a meta call?

I'm leaning toward Path because it's far stronger against New Horizons. Which is a deck I've been having a hard time with. If they Stifle and Waste a couple of my lands early game I'm often too color-screwed and trapped in top-deck mode to survive. If I resolve Aether Vial I'm usually much happier, and obviously if Dark Confidant survives a few turns I can hit my drops and stay in the game. But overall this is an un-fun match-up and I'm not sure how to improve it.
My mainboard only plays black for Confidant, Thougthseize and Maelstrom Pulse, so I'm considering boarding out the Seizes to simplify my colors while bringing in Paths and possibly Aven Mindcensor (brick-up their fetches and Knights). Other ideas or experiences?

Also worth mentioning: I think this deck has game against lots of random aggro while still holding against whatever reincarnations of Reanimator pop up. But I've never tested the match-up against storm combo or Enchantress and did not enjoy the two games I've played against Lands so far either. What's ya'll's experience been? How savagely must we hate, and what opportunities do you see for interconnected/overlapping hate to maximize each slot's utility?

sdematt

06-30-2010, 10:13 PM

I haven't had a ton of issues with Enchantress, except when they get the God hand and give everything Shroud on turn 2. Mind you, Pernicious Deed is really good here. Usually, if you can land Deed, you're Golden. If not, blow up relevant crap (The Angel Generator and the Shroud thing). If you can keep them off their key cards, you're usually good. Also, hand disruption against them is really brutal.

I don't see much to bring in against Enchantress, except NOT siding in creature hate. Siding in Grips for Swords should be fine.

For Lands, the matchup is tricky. If they Manabond first turn into double Port, Wasteland, Factory, etc., you're boned. If they don't have a God Draw, you can usually get there by blowing up their Manabonds, Explorations, etc. Once Loam gets going, it can be hard to beat, so make sure you get rid of their Intuitions and exile their Life from the Loam (with Bog). You can eventually get there with creature beatdown, but you'll have to get through Ports, Tabers, and Mazes.

Side in Leylines, and Extirpates. Extirpate on Loam is cruel, and Leyline takes away recurring EE, Intuition, and Crucible (if they side it in). You should be able to get there post-board. Just make sure you attack often, and Swords their Factories.

Both can be tough matchups, but you just have to play smart, save destruction for key pieces, and turn your creatures sideways. I've found a ton of Lands players forget to Maze your attackers :P

-Matt

brianw712

07-05-2010, 12:52 PM

I've been testing the following list, partially inspired by danpo's list:

Lands (21):

1 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Creatures (27):

4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Disruption (8):

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize

Miscellaneous (4):

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15):

4 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Gaddock Teeg

The most unconventional card in this list is probably the Tidehollow Sculler. It has been so-so in testing so far; I just wanted a low-costing creature that disrupted combo, since I expect it to remain strong despite Mystical Tutor's banning, and I thought it was better against more decks than Teeg. I've been pretty happy with it so far, it's been giving me positive results against Zoo, Merfolk, and New Horizons (more so after board due to the 4 Paths). It has a variety of answers to whatever decks it might face, but still plays aggressively. Thoughts?

Fran

07-11-2010, 10:45 PM

Plains 2
swamp 2
forest 2
scrubland 2
savanna 2
bayou 3
windswept heath 4
verdant catacomb 3
marsh flats 1

birds of paradise 4
gaddock teeg 2
knight of the rel 4
kitchen finks 4
goyf 4
stoneforge mystic 3
Dark confidant 3

sword of fire and ice 1
sword of light and shadow 1
jitte 2
swords to plowshares 4
thoughtsieze 4
vindicate 3

side
deed 2
k grip 2
chalice of the void 3
extirpate 3
choke 3
tormod's crypt 1
relic of progen 1

This is what i plan on rockin at my next local tournament. I decided to go with the stoneforge plan because it really just felt to good not to. I don't know if any of you have for whatever reason opted out of trying it but at least give it a shot. Shes really good. Its pretty card advantagey and the equipment can turn anything into a viable threat. Im main boarding the teegs partly because I dont think the deck is going to want deeds main (what i had in that spot before) its great but i feel like its better in the side. And teeg is good in some random match ups and always good against force of will at least.

I have played rock before but not this particular build any ideas or advice regarding it would be appreciated.

Brainw712, i like your list but it feels weird to me only running 2 dark confidants. Usually especially in this deck I really want to see them, the only reason I'm not playing 4 is because i haven't gotten it yet. It feels like the deck really needs the card advantage. Im not too sure about the mothers either, I haven't tested it though either, how does it play? is it really worth it over the other options? I do think however that elspeth makes perfect sense. I think shes a fine edition to the deck, she gives you a good plan in a stalemate and a good way to seal the deal if your in the lead. I haven't seen a ton of planeswalkers in The Rock, at least around here, but i think its a step in the right direction.

I would advice playing more equips along with jitte too, you may find yourself drawing dead cards with additional jittes or stoneforges, that's what was happening to me anyway. Plus sword of fire and ice/light and shadow are great. I really couldn't see dumping them after trying them out.

sdematt

07-12-2010, 12:04 AM

I've heard some rumours about new equipment coming out in Scars. Could be interesting to see if the Stoneforge package could get an upgrade.

-MAtt

zalachan

07-12-2010, 03:39 AM

Considering SFM packages: why doesn't anyone run Basilisk Collar? Is it really that bad? I can see it being pretty useful, from chumpblocking with deathtouch, to attacking Exalted Angel-style with Goyfen and Knights.
It may not be as strong as Swords and Jitte on offense, but on defense, you can trade with their best creatures. SB slot maybe? Combo it with Plague Spitter for the kicks;)

AggroSteve

07-12-2010, 06:16 AM

we do not really want to chumpblock with goyfs and knights, we mostly have the bigger creatures in game (only new horizons, aggro loam, aeon bridge and reanimator gets bigger ones), so there won't be any need of chumpblocking, besides the swords are also way stronger in defense than collar

the new sword/equipment is being spoken a lot of in the death and taxes thread, appearingly it should be a protection green sword, just like SoLaS, and SoFaI are for the other colors

i myself tried out the SFM with equipment package, i had the list posted some time ago, in addiction to the "cantrip" from SFM i added horizon canopys, but after a lot of testing i am now back again with my nighmare list, the manabase could not afford having only one basic of each type, at least not for me, plus the equipments give a aggro boost for sure, but they are quite vulnerable and if we go for SFM we need the equipments for cardadvantage, but they will often just be destroyed by pridemages, so there will be no cardadvantage

because of that i am back with my recurring nightmare list and with confidants again, i just wish i could play more kitchen finks, they are just awesome with nightmare, as is witness, last time i played with a friend i won in a instant (against DnT) the moment recurring nightmare hit the game, because i had kitchen finks in play and a fleshbag marauder in grave, plus a oran rief to abuse the hell out of finks

if anyone wants to see my list i will gladly post it

brianw712

07-12-2010, 08:26 AM

@Fran:

I like your list, it's very similar to mine. I agree with you that the Stoneforge Mystic is worth running, but I don't like to run too many equipments because we don't play Brainstorm to shuffle extras back, and you never want to really see more than one equipment because of the tempo loss. Mother of Runes has been playing great for me; it protects Tidehollow Sculler and Dark Confidant, is an excellent chumpblocker (especially when wearing Jitte), and, along with Elspeth, can provide reach by pushing a large Knight or Goyf past blockers. Two Dark Confidants I think is right; none of the creatures I play are very good blockers (a lot of 2/2s and 1/2s) and so I might take a lot of damage early on from a deck like Zoo. I might put it up to three, but I don't know what to cut.

@zalachan:

Basilisk Collar is good, but I don't think it's worth a maindeck slot. I tried it in my list and there were too many times where it didn't do enough; I just wanted to see another creature. I almost never grabbed it with Mystic, since Jitte is just better.

sdematt

07-12-2010, 10:57 AM

@ Steve:

Post ze list :D

-Matt

SpikeyMikey

07-12-2010, 12:57 PM

I don't like Confidant and Tombstalker in the same deck. With 4 SDT it's dangerous. With 2, it's suicidal. I also think you're stronger without the Mystic Package. You've got Goyfs and Knights to provide big beats, you don't really need EQ for them. You can use the slots for more disruptive elements. I'd run Extirpates in the main and a Crucible and a pair of E. Tutors. Maybe 1 SoLS as anti-plow. Acquiring more Vindicates would be good, as packing 4 Waste and 4 Vindicate can randomly win games against 3 color decks (i.e. most of the format). I'd also play at least 3 Extirpate main. Extirpate let's you win against decks that have a combo backup plan (Thopter/NOPro/43 Land) and is still solid against everything else. If you're packing discard and LD, which you are, it's a good way to wreck people's game. Ever Extirpated Trop on turn 2 vs. CB Top? It puts them WAY behind the curve.

Finally, I feel like Rock should always have at least 2 Edicts main. They're good against a wide range of things from Emrakul to Argothian Enchantress to Progenitus. It's certainly better than Path.

AggroSteve

07-12-2010, 02:07 PM

all right here comes my list, i am still testing it in this configuration though

lands 22

3x windswepht heath
2x verdant catacombs
2x bloodstained mire (only because i only got 2 verdant and no march flats)
2x overgrown tomb
1x godless shrine
1x temple garden
1x horizon canopy
1x oran rief, the vastewood
1x volraths stronghold (not satisfied with anymore, will probably become karakas)
1x bojuka bog
1x wasteland
2x swamp
2x forest
2x plains

creatures 19

3x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf
3x knoght of the reliquary
3x eternal witness
4x kitchen finks
2x fleshbag marauder

spells 20

3x thoughtsieze
2x inquisition of kozilek/cabal theraphy (still testing which fits better, but i do not like theraphy that much)
4x swords to plowshares
3x senseis divining top
3x vindicate
3x pernicious deed
2x recurring nightmare

61 cards in total

as you can see a lot of 1-off lands, but the only ones i do not like that much are wasteland and a little bit maybe canopy, and as allready written stronghold, i find it to much of a mana investement lately, plus the colorless mana is surely not what we want, but even with that many utility lands it works, though i probably will cut one
besides oran rief is really good with finks and nightmare if you can tutor for it with knight

the fleshbag marauders together with nightmare are awesome, and kitchen finks is surely my favorite creature in the deck
the marauders were really good right from the first time i tried them, it was worth cutting a vindicate and a discard spell for them

nightmare helps a lot in games where you are low on life, sacrifice finks gain 2 life and opponent sacrifices a creature in best case scenario

i am not that satisfied with knight of the reliquary, someone else posted a list with elspeth in his place, maybe this would be stronger, specially if i want to abuse nightmare, but as of now i will do more testing

@ spikeymikey:

confidant and tombstalker in the same deck works and quite well to, i even played them in the same deck without divining tops, i had 4 confidants and a 2-off tombstalker, and i only got screwed by it 3 times in about 50 games (did not really count but it feels like about that many), when you play both and it happens to you to flip tombstalker it may even kill you, and it is actually because of that, that everyone is scared of playing both even if its really unprobable to flip a tombstalker with confidant

but with divining tops even if you play only 2 divining tops and 2 tombstalker, its no problem at all

SpikeyMikey

07-12-2010, 04:36 PM

Tombstalker is a nombo with Goyf and KotR, your two main beaters. He's a nombo with Dark Confidant, your only draw engine. In short, he works poorly with your deck. I'm not sure what argument there is in his favor that you want to keep playing it. With the list you have right now, you're basically a big slow Zoo. The idea behind Rock is to force interaction with your opponent and beat them with card quality. You have no meaningful way to interact with Progenitus or Emrakul, little recourse against Storm and mediocre interaction against Thopter Sword (you've got Deed and Vindicate to Kill Foundry but with 1 Waste and 1 Bog, you've got few outs to Academy Ruins. So basically, the only decks you've got game against are those that don't have an advantage engine like Zoo, Fish or Goblins. Lands and Dredge will just ignore you. And of the 3 positive matchups you have, 2 of them, Goblins and Fish, are predicated on them not being able to disrupt your mana. You've got enough land that you should be able to just play through Wastelands. Basics only help in the face of recursive LD, i.e. against Lands.

This is why I'm such a big proponent of Extirpate in Rock. When you Thoughtseize a Natural Order and Extirpate it, you never have to worry about Prog again. Ditto Thopter Foundry or Sword of the Meek. When you run Edict, Emrakul is a significantly smaller problem. When you stop trying to run your mana off basics and pack in some more duals, you can support the Wastelands you need to beat Lands game 1.

AggroSteve

07-12-2010, 06:34 PM

spikeymikey, i sure would love to see your list

sure i know how good extirpate is, but if i am not running them it does not mean i got worse matchups against other decks than a rock with extirpates

besides i did not post any sideboard, so you can hopefully immagine what will be in my sideboard (though right now i am changing it a bit)

against emrakul and any big shrouded creature i am running the fleshbag marauders, and i sideboard more edicts and wing shards (though wing shards are not that good against emrakul)
and every rock deck has problems with combo, i am sure your's has too (even with extirpates)

but honestly i would love to see your list

PS: the tombstalker think obviously depends on what beaters you are playing, time ago i played doran instead of knight (got them just recently) and in that case i would definitely play tombstalker as well, even if a played confidant and no tops, but now since i have the knights, i droped tombstalker because it has bad interaction with to many of my beaters

hopefully i did not forget to write one of my thoughts, because right now i am studying for my last exam in university for this semester (which is tomorrow)

brianw712

07-12-2010, 07:08 PM

Sure, Tombstalker, Dark Confidant, Goyf, and Knight in the same deck CAN work, but the real question is, is it worth the risk?

I've tried Tombstalker in my list, and I've found that, 99 times out of 100, Elspeth is just better. It requires less black mana (my list is pretty black-light), gives fits to control, and actually has positive synergy with Knight and Goyf rather than negative synergy. Personally I think that the only reason to run Tombstalker over Elspeth is if your list is white-light or if it already plays Elspeth.

@SpikeyMikey: I think you are underestimating the number of good matchups The Rock has. Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk aren't the only good matchups. I think Lands is actually a positive matchup, especially for those builds that run 4 Knight + 3-4 Wasteland + Bog. And sure Dredge ignores us Game 1, but it does that against most decks. I admit I haven't tested Thopter Sword matchup all that much, but it seems like hand disruption + Pridemage/Deed/Vindicate should be able to keep them off their combo. Extirpate might help in all of these matchups, but it's either pure garbage or, at best, subpar in many others. It's bad in any tribal match, it's bad against Zoo, it's bad against CounterTop (Thoughtseizing NO + Extirpate is still card disadvantage, and they can still soft-lock you), it's bad against combo, and it's only decent against New Horizons. I think the matchups that it's bad against outweigh the matchups it's good against, which is why I think it should be relegated to the sideboard (though I chose the more aggressive Macabre in my list). However I do agree that when it's good, it's really good (i.e. against Lands).

Regarding Edict, I don't think it's that necessary in a Rock list, and it's not necessarily better than Swords/Path. Swords/Path are better against New Horizons, Zoo, and Tribal, while Edict is better against Reanimator/Show and Tell/Progenitus. I'll consider replacing Path in my board with Edict, but I don't think there are enough Emrakul/Prog decks yet to justify it.

sdematt

07-12-2010, 08:53 PM

I've tested the Thopter match and it can be interesting. They have Countertop, which isn't a huge both, but the problem is they have Enlightened tutor to put whatever CMC they want on top to counter that back-breaking spell. That can be a pain, as is Jace TMS. If he stays online, he usually wrecks your way of actually removing him. But, it's nice to know we play 4 Vindicate and Pulse, which is good against the Tokens I hear. In some ways, it's another Tribal Matchup with Counter-Top instead of Standstill or something. If you can land Plague on Thopter, they're pretty much done.

The key here: take out Academy Ruins, Thopter Foundry, and Jace.They can try to Moat you out, but you blow it up. They Trinkey into Needle, you go around it. They're a bit like Old School Keeper in a way, but you have answers for their answers.

-Matt

kinda

07-13-2010, 12:29 AM

AggroSteve

07-13-2010, 04:22 AM

the only problem i got right now with elspeth, i haven't got any, and cant afford them now, plus what to cut if i want to fit her in the list

but i do not really understand why i should run dryad arbor if i am running nightmare, sure its a fetchable creature but i do not really bother saccing knight after having attacked to get kitchen finks and than knight back, or saccing knight for witness works as well, so i do not see dryad arbor as usefull, but maybe you can explain a little better what you were thinking about

my thoughts were ether playing elspeth or knight in this build not both together, because elspeth gives immidiate advantages, specially with nightmare and can pump all my small creatures to be threats, but knight instead is a huge monster which gives me a landtoolbox, which is really strong and reliable, and with oran rief and kitchen finks i can get tons of life and cardadvantage with nightmare but it needs a little time to set up

right now i am using knight but i am not sure if it is the stronger choice, i hope i made my thoughts a little clearer, specially the one why i thought that there is needed or knight or elspeth, i do not play both simply due to lack of space i would say

brianw712

07-13-2010, 08:16 AM

but i do not really understand why i should run dryad arbor if i am running nightmare, sure its a fetchable creature but i do not really bother saccing knight after having attacked to get kitchen finks and than knight back, or saccing knight for witness works as well, so i do not see dryad arbor as usefull, but maybe you can explain a little better what you were thinking about

Dryad Arbor is not only fetchable by Knight, but by Verdant Catacombs and Windswept Heath as well.

SpikeyMikey

07-13-2010, 12:47 PM

Brian: I agree that the Lands M/U is slightly favorable with 3-4 Wastes and a Bog or two. But a listing with 1 Waste and 1 Bog, not so much.

My list, for reference:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage

3 Vindicate
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Pernicious Deed

4 Thoughtseize
4 Extirpate

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Of course, this is what I play on MWS; it's tuned to beat junk decks like Stax and black midrange. If I were to bring a deck like this to Colombus, which is unlikely (I'd rather bring my homebrew Thopter Top), I'd probably cut an Extirpate and 2 Elspeth for 2 E Tutors and either a Duress or a Crucible.

Edit: I've only played Dredge on MWS twice with this but both times I've beaten it. Extirpate on Bridge buys a lot of time and a second one on Narcomoeba with trigger on the stack puts it away. You don't care about Ichorid slow-roll. I wouldn't say it's unloseable, but it's a strong M/U.

Ando

07-13-2010, 01:36 PM

I have a question on Pulse vs. Vindicate. How often do you find yourself having the chance to blow up multiple permanents and how often would you prefer to blow up a land? And how often does it really not matter?

SpikeyMikey

07-13-2010, 02:38 PM

sdematt

07-13-2010, 05:20 PM

I would certainly not call Stax junk. Stax destroys Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, it's just really bad against Pernicious Deed. Really bad.

-Matt

SpikeyMikey

07-13-2010, 09:48 PM

Stax has bad matchup against it's own deck. Too often I've seen people forced to mull to 5 to get a keepable hand, drop 1 or two disruption pieces then stall out and do nothing relevant. I just beat it with Zoo last night. Of course 1 match doesn't mean much, but I rarely play any of the decks you listed. I do know that my lifetime win %age against Legacy Stax post T1 split is well over 90%. There are T2 decks I'd be more scared of. I don't even like Deed against them, it requires dropping more lands than I'm comfortable with and walking into Geddon. I'd rather just spot remove where I need to.

sdematt

07-14-2010, 01:04 AM

My point is that Stax should be an easy matchup for Rock unless you really get screwed over. Stax is a good deck in its own right, and does what it does well: try to lock the game. It is brutally topdeck dependent, and that's its main problem. But, let's leave this for the Stax thread.

I'm not totally sold on the Stoneforge package, but apparently there's a new Sword along the lines of SoFI coming out. This could be interesting. :D

I'll be playing Rock hopefully on July 22nd, so I'll post in the next few days so we can tweak.

-Matt

from Cairo

07-14-2010, 01:14 AM

I would say that I use Vindicate on land about half the time. Keep in mind that I play on MWS and rarely see tier decks. I almost never see CB. I feel that it depends heavily on your deck construction. If you're running less than 3 Wastes, I would consider Pulse. Personally, I rarely find situations where I need to Pulse multiple things, but the mana fits better (BG vs. WB) and the situation could arise where I wanted it. Having additional answers to problem lands like Maze and Ruins is important to me, which is why I will always run Vindicate, but I can understand why people would go Pulse. But the way I see Rock style decks (and we really should come up with a new name since there is no Deranged Hermit anymore) is that I'm playing a counterless control. Denying my opponent a color (easy to do with 7 LD and Extirpates) is as good as making them discard or countering the spells they draw in those colors.

I think Vindicate is more powerful. IE: the situations where you can land screw or tempo an opponent with Vindicate + Wasteland come up more often than generating a 2 for 1 with Maelstrom Pulse. Maelstrom Pulse does have some perks though, it can tear through Empty the Warrens, Thopter, Bridge from Below and Elspeth tokens. Also, if one is running Swords to Plowshares, Maelstrom Pulse has the added benefit of being off color removal vs Iona on White.

Overall the two are similar enough that it probably doesn't make too much of a difference, one can mostly chose the slot based on what situations they want to capitalize on / have outs to.

SpikeyMikey

07-14-2010, 07:48 AM

I think Vindicate is more powerful. IE: the situations where you can land screw or tempo an opponent with Vindicate + Wasteland come up more often than generating a 2 for 1 with Maelstrom Pulse. Maelstrom Pulse does have some perks though, it can tear through Empty the Warrens, Thopter, Bridge from Below and Elspeth tokens. Also, if one is running Swords to Plowshares, Maelstrom Pulse has the added benefit of being off color removal vs Iona on White.

Overall the two are similar enough that it probably doesn't make too much of a difference, one can mostly chose the slot based on what situations they want to capitalize on / have outs to.

Let's be honest, against Thopter tokens, your best bet is killing the Foundry, otherwise they all just come right back. Elspeth rarely makes more than one token at a time, so that's probably a blank too. And ETW is usually coming turn 1 from Belcher, making this a bit slow compared to EE. But like I said, I can see why some people would run it. I just agree with you that manascrewing an opponent with 7-8 LD cards between Waste and Vindicate is Some Good.

AggroSteve

07-14-2010, 07:50 AM

both cards are awesome, but i play vindicates over pulse, since i am allready playing some fleshbag marauders(maybe replaced by diabolic edict not sure yet) main, and since i am just playing one wasteland as part of my landtoolbox, it comes handy to be able to destroy some bothering lands

and i do not think we should rethink our naming, we are still the midrange boardcontrol-beatdown deck we used to be, and i do not think deranget hermit has anything to do with this :P

@ spikeymikey:

i now see why in your build extirpates are good, but your build is tuned in that direction as well, mine is more manadependant

with 4 wastelands, and vindicates, plus discard, extirpates becomes really strong, but still to situational, and the manabase forces you to go lower in range of CB

with only 1 wasteland and vindicates mainly for card for all purposes and not landdestruction, extirpates are not so strong, since i do not really try to screw my opponent, plus with my manabase it is easier to support more 3cc spells, specially colordependant ones

but i like your idea of 3/3 split between swords and edicts, maybe i will try that out too

sdematt

07-14-2010, 10:28 AM

The split between Swords and Edicts was discussed a little while ago as well. I like it quite a bit. (I'm Matt, and I approve this 3/3 Split :D)

-Matt

Ando

07-14-2010, 12:07 PM

Thanks for all the input guys. I was originally liking pulse more, but I see what you're saying about it's power to mess up tempo and such and I agree. Mikey, I really like your list with the MD extirpates, and I can see how strong they could be with vindicate plus wasteland, that's awesome.

Anyway, thanks again everyone :)

EDIT: I think why I might have preferred Pulse originally is cause my meta tends to have a good deal of merfolk, goblins, and belcher, all of which Pulse is great against.

SpikeyMikey

07-17-2010, 08:33 AM

and i do not think we should rethink our naming, we are still the midrange boardcontrol-beatdown deck we used to be, and i do not think deranget hermit has anything to do with this :P

The deck was originally called "The Rock and his Millions." The Deranged Hermit was the Rock and his squirrel tokens were his millions. But more than that I was referring to the idea that of the iconic "Rock" cards, Deed (and to a lesser extent Vindicate) are the only ones we run. No Spiritmonger, no Yavimya Elder, no Rofellos. I dunno, it's just a thought but it seems to me like calling Bant Survival "ATS" even though there's no Tradewind Rider. Like yeah, it's in colors and it is a descendant of the deck but a very distant one at best.

brianw712

07-17-2010, 09:58 AM

Well I think people have taken "The Rock" to mean any GBW deck that is midrangy. I don't think there's any problem in keeping the name; it's not the only deck that has kept the same name, yet has changed drastically. I mean, technically there have been Zoo decks forever, and it's still called Zoo today because it's a fast beatdown deck with reach. We're still called The Rock because we're still a GBW midrange deck.

zalachan

07-18-2010, 04:57 AM

I think that Phyrexian Plaguelord had something to do with the name "the Rock" as well, as a pun to the wrestler with the same name, who channels his powers through the support of his audience (but i wouldn't really know that for sure, i guess).
Plaguelord was a strong piece by itself, but with the help of recursion and little rancored rats, squirrels, elves and 187 guys, he became rock hard to deal with.

So, basically, the toolbox and recurring approach of some BGW decks can be considered the Rock (less so the aggro lists with not-so-great-late-game, i would call those BGW Jank or Goodstuff). All the cards in those colors that are getting better in the midgame, supporting eachother on different levels, can be considered "rockish".
In the current metagame, such "wrestlers" are Elspeth, Knight of the Reliquary, Survival of the Fittest, Recurring Nightmare.

But that is just from my perspective and understanding.
And because the pool of cards for this deck is very deep, since the deck is situational and reacts to the metagame (it performs great in well defined metagames, not so much in unknown space), the distinction between the Rock and the Jank, at least in Legacy, is not that important.

ivanpei

07-19-2010, 05:01 AM

Hi, I'm new on the source after a fair bit of lurking. I've been testing some of the newer cards with a rockish shell for a while. I played survival, NO and most possible combinations. I've come to like the following list though it is far from conventional:

4 Noble Heirarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Eternal Witness

4 Bitterblossom
2 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Vindicate
3 Sensei's divining top

4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
3 Savanna
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

This list has performed very well VS aggro. It still folds to storm unfortunately but performs admirably vs blue based control. I based this on the concept that deed is cumbersome as it limits the threats/bombs that the deck can play. I've realised for a long time that Jitte + blossom= Game win most of the time. With the printing of Stoneforge, the deck essentially plays 5 jittes and 4 Sofi. I'm playing Heirarch mainly because it gives exalted (which is surprisingly relevant very often) and most importantly because it carries equipment like a champ. 4 Vindicates because countertop thopter is starting to pop up alot. I foresee problems vs natural order decks, so maybe 2/3 edicts are in order. However, I'll put them in the board as the maindeck is pretty tight. What equipment + blossom gives you is bomb plays that will win the game if unanswered. I've always felt that was what the rock was lacking. Natural order in rock was so-so as I've always had my NO countered and that usually led to a gameloss. Forcing/countering a stoneforge/blossom is not terrible for us as it is just a 1 card/2 mana investment. Any thoughts? Cheers, Ivan.

sdematt

07-19-2010, 10:52 AM

I don't think Storm is quite as relevant as it used to be, at least ANT isnt. I think we'll be seeing more Doomsday, so I think packing Leyline of Sanctity/Diabolic Edict will be important.

-Matt

from Cairo

07-19-2010, 05:53 PM

Hi, I'm new on the source after a fair bit of lurking. I've been testing some of the newer cards with a rockish shell for a while. I played survival, NO and most possible combinations. I've come to like the following list though it is far from conventional:

list

This list has performed very well VS aggro. It still folds to storm unfortunately but performs admirably vs blue based control. I based this on the concept that deed is cumbersome as it limits the threats/bombs that the deck can play. I've realised for a long time that Jitte + blossom= Game win most of the time. With the printing of Stoneforge, the deck essentially plays 5 jittes and 4 Sofi. I'm playing Heirarch mainly because it gives exalted (which is surprisingly relevant very often) and most importantly because it carries equipment like a champ. 4 Vindicates because countertop thopter is starting to pop up alot. I foresee problems vs natural order decks, so maybe 2/3 edicts are in order. However, I'll put them in the board as the maindeck is pretty tight. What equipment + blossom gives you is bomb plays that will win the game if unanswered. I've always felt that was what the rock was lacking. Natural order in rock was so-so as I've always had my NO countered and that usually led to a gameloss. Forcing/countering a stoneforge/blossom is not terrible for us as it is just a 1 card/2 mana investment. Any thoughts? Cheers, Ivan.

Have you tested Cabal Therapy in that list? It seems like it would help boost your disruption, maybe helping your combo/control matches. It has really incredible synergy with Thoughtseize, Eternal Witness, and Bitterblossem. I might try 2 in the Inquisition of Kozilek and Vindicate #4 slots. It functions as more synergistic discard than Inquisition and can preempitively hit problem cards you'd be expending Vindicate on.

Either way cool list.

Enfex

07-19-2010, 06:52 PM

Now when ANT is more or less gone, won't The Rock get atleast DTB status? The only real bad matchup is against spellbased combo anyway.

sdematt

07-19-2010, 07:33 PM

Decks to Beat are considered rampant, top tier decks played all over the world, placing highly in various tournaments. Unfortunately, the Rock isn't a cheap deck to build, is somewhat difficult to pilot well, and therefore does shot up at tournaments all that much. The problem is, the Rock does decently well against everything. The problem is, it does exceptionally well against nothing, which is why some don't really don't want to push the deck into the DTB category. Another problem? There's a bajillion builds of it, whereas most Tier 1 decks are pretty rigid in their list. Zoo is a pretty standard set of cards, as is Merfolk, Goblins, New Horizons, etc. But, we're definitely Tier 1.5, as we can hold our own in most places. The only real problem is ANT, and Zoo can be a pain, depending on your build.

-Matt

ivanpei

07-19-2010, 10:58 PM

Therapy is a good idea. I might try that. I still think vindicate 4 is a must play since I don't play any deeds. I can see cutting the inquisition and probably a top for 2 therapy. Will test it to see how it pans out. The rock is expensive to build, I agree and I doubt many people will go building it when they start getting into legacy. The deck just doesn't have any "broken" plays to make it attractive (ie natural order progenitus or reanimate iona). It is a collection of synergistic cards that work well together and has a strong matchup against the field, sort of like Jund in standard. However, Jund is cheap and the rock isnt. ;)

zalachan

07-20-2010, 03:37 AM

It is a pricey deck indeed. But as is, i have been liking the deck concept since i have seen first lists with Deed (when Vampiric Tutor was still extended staple, cca Mirrodin times). Until then, i have collected a healthy portion of deck staples, some of them are quite outdated now (Baloth, Elder, FTK, Birds), but Witnesses, Therapys, Vindicates and Deeds really proved themselves over all those years.
Since Lorwyn i haven't really been around so i need to get PWs and duals, now that they are expensive (i didn't have money back then when duals were 15-20 € apiece).
But card accumulation is an ongoing process, im pretty happy i got Catacombs, Flats and Knights this year. I can almost call it a year:)

sdematt

07-20-2010, 03:47 AM

Well, I would say pick up the duals little by little, and you'll really love having them when you finally get them :D

-Matt

zalachan

07-20-2010, 09:50 AM

Well, I would say pick up the duals little by little, and you'll really love having them when you finally get them :D

-Matt

Well i managed to get 2x Savannah and 1x Bayou, but i guess i need some more :D Still, i can't really convince myself to invest in Scrublands, since they are pretty much useless outside of the Rock. If i could get them for really cheap, however..

sdematt

07-20-2010, 11:31 AM

Yeah, the Badlands and Scrublands are the most narrow at the moment. But, think about it in terms of building a 40-set. Once you have them all, you can build anything. Plus, they're only ~$30, so they're not too bad of a wallet breaker.

-Matt

_erbs_

07-22-2010, 02:16 AM

Hello,
Its been awhile since i played rock and i wanted to hear some comments or suggestions on my current build. I know i have to test it more but so far its been doing okay except that maybe in tournys i will always go the distance of last 5 turns. Other than that i think its okay.

thanks

Lands [21]
3 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
1 windswept heath
1 marsh flats
2 swamp
5 forest
4 bayou
1 volrath's stronghold

Spells [23]
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 cabal teraphy
2 thoughtseize
3 smother
2 diabolic eddict
4 maelstorm pulse
2 pernicious deed
2 harmonize
2 grim discovery

Creatures [16]
3 wall of blossoms
4 tarmogoyf
2 eternal witness
4 kitchen finks
2 obstinate baloth
1 shriekmaw

Sideboard [15]
3 krosan grip
3 extirpate
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
1 ravenous trap
3 duress
1 pernicious deed
2 consuming vapors

Hanni

07-22-2010, 07:52 PM

Ever since they unbanned Entomb, I've been fascinated with using it in The Rock. I tried several previous builds that didn't work too well, and being preoccupied with other decks (and other things in general), I kinda put the idea on hold.

The reason why I like Entomb so much, is that it sets up an engine. The Rock is a midrange deck, and engines are what give this deck its midrange strength. Now, when most people think of engine, they probably immediately think of Life from the Loam. What most people probably don't think of, is Genesis.

That's right, Genesis.

Why Genesis? Well, Genesis is very unique. Unlike Volrath's Stronghold, Genesis actually creates card advantage. That's right, card advantage. Every upkeep, you get the option to pay 2G to return a creature to hand, and you still get your normal draw for the turn. This makes Genesis not just useful a means of recursion, it makes Genesis an engine.

What's so good about Genesis as an engine, though? Well, if you're playing with Pernicious Deed, you can sweep the board at will. It makes Pernicious Deed very asymmetrical. It also makes cards like Cabal Therapy alot stronger, too.

However, there's more to it than just wiping the board clean with Pernicious Deed, and then recurring your Tarmogoyf. Once you get Genesis in the yard, all future Entombs can tutor for any creature in the deck. That means recurring creature removal with Shriekmaw, and recurring artifact/enchantment removal with Qasali Pridemage.

Since the deck's already in G/B/w, we might as well toss in a Loam too. Since the deck is focused on abusing Genesis instead of Loam, Loam is there to simply ensure consistent land drops, and grow Knight of the Reliquary. With the ability to tutor for lands with Knight of the Reliquary (and possibly Entomb), a 2/1/1 split of Horizon Canopy, Wasteland, and Volrath's Stronghold doesn't sound like bad idea, either.

Here's the list I've started with:

G/B/w Entomb Rock

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [R] Bayou
2 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed

I just want to point out, that this deck is very resilient to graveyard hate. Even if the opponent does shut down Genesis, Loam, or both, the deck still functions very well without those cards. Their are only a few cards dedicated towards the engine, and the rest of the deck is a very efficient Rock shell.

I'd also like to say that Cabal Therapy has some savage synergy in this deck.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I'm highly debating if Birds of Paradise should be Noble Hierarch, even though Hierarch doesn't produce black mana. The exalted triggers would be very useful...

EDIT 2: I'm actually debating the accelerant slot altogether. Opinions on this?

sdematt

07-23-2010, 02:14 AM

Hm, I like the list Hanni. It's going in a new direction, and it's always nice to see fresh innovation. I'll take a more thorough look over it tomorrow, but so far, I like what I see.

Personally though, I think if you run a few more black lands thant he others, you can use Noble Hierarch to great effect. I find it's pivotal in winning Goyf wars, and most of the time, you don't miss not making black.

-Matt

Hanni

07-23-2010, 03:50 AM

Hm, I like the list Hanni. It's going in a new direction, and it's always nice to see fresh innovation. I'll take a more thorough look over it tomorrow, but so far, I like what I see.

Thanks. Like I said, I've been wanting to make a good Entomb Rock deck for a while, and I think that I finally put a strong list together. I was originally working on a version before that was centered around Loam, but the deck was slow and clunky. Making Genesis the primary engine is much faster, and much more efficient. Plus, there's more synergy in here with Genesis; Genesis makes Pernicious Deed and Cabal Therapy much stronger.

Personally though, I think if you run a few more black lands thant he others, you can use Noble Hierarch to great effect. I find it's pivotal in winning Goyf wars, and most of the time, you don't miss not making black.

I agree. I tried both Nimble Mongoose and Noble Hierarch in the Birds of Paradise spots. Nimble Mongoose was good, but I think acceleration is better overall. I then tried Noble Hierarch, and he was great. He can be a threat if necessary, he's never useless when you don't need the extra mana because he offers Exalted triggers, and he helps accelerate the early game. The fact that he doesn't tap for black is mostly irrelevant, since I usually fetch Bayou first anyway.

I also put together a sideboard finally. I was playing alot of test games without a sideboard so I could figure out what I needed.

I came up against Ichorid, and got boned in g1. So I made a sideboard of 3 Crypt and 1 Bojuka Bog for games 2 and 3. Crypt was entirely unecessary once I got Bojuka/Wasteland with Knight of the Reliquary and Life from the Loam.

After the fact, I decided a 2/2 split of Bojuka Bog and Faerie Macabre would be best, since it varies the hate, and it gives me options during the game in regards to tutoring with Entomb. Genesis/Faerie Macabre is strong, and Knight of the Reliquary/Bojuka Bog is strong as well.

Then I ran into a Landstill/Planeswalker control deck (piloted by white_ghost). I thought I was dominating with Loam + Genesis card advantage against him, but really, the game ended up with me winning due to him decking. Yea, long game. 4 Swords/4 Path makes Genesis recursion difficult, and Humility shutting down Genesis slowed me down as well. In light of this, I've decided that Worm Harvest, Gigapede, and Raven's Crime should be somewhere in the decks 75. I'd really like to fit Worm Harvest in the maindeck, but the list feels so tight and I have no idea what to cut.

I think a 1-of Karakas would be a good idea for Emrakul (and to a lesser extent, Iona). I don't think Tabernacle is necessary, especially since I only run 1 Wasteland. Maze of Ith has potential, but I don't think it's necessary.

I also added 4 Path to Exile for aggro matchups, and 3 Krosan Grip for randomness.

I still don't have an answer to a resolved Progenitus, but I'm not sure if it's worth running narrow answers for it.

Here's the sideboard:

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [ON] Gigapede
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas

I'm going to edit my decklist in my above post to have Noble Hierarch instead of Birds of Paradise.

heroicraptor

07-23-2010, 04:03 AM

Humility shutting down Genesis

No, it doesn't. Humility only affects "creatures", not "creature cards".

109.2. If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that includes a card type or subtype, but doesn’t include the word “card,” “spell,” or “source,” it means a permanent of that card type or subtype on the battlefield.

Hanni

07-23-2010, 04:20 AM

Huh... I checked the Humility thread, and I saw this:

Humility's "lose all abilities" is applied in Layer 5, as is Wonder's flying, so if Wonder is put into the graveyard after Humility comes into play, your creatures will have flying, if Humility comes into play after Wonder hits the grave, they won't.

Doesn't that mean that if I have Genesis in my yard first, and then Humility comes into play, that Genesis loses its ability?

_erbs_

07-23-2010, 04:26 AM

If you like to run entombs why not run survival of the fittest over it, its a more better engine over entomb + genesis. With survival of the fittest it will offer you the iona lock and a good clock over entomb + genesis combo.

heroicraptor

07-23-2010, 04:31 AM

Huh... I checked the Humility thread, and I saw this:

Doesn't that mean that if I have Genesis in my yard first, and then Humility comes into play, that Genesis loses its ability?

No, they're just using Wonder as a giver of an ability. It would be the same as if they said Levitation was there instead of Wonder.

Hanni

07-23-2010, 04:47 AM

No, they're just using Wonder as a giver of an ability.

I read more of the (Humility) thread, and you're right.

If you like to run entombs why not run survival of the fittest over it, its a more better engine over entomb + genesis. With survival of the fittest it will offer you the iona lock and a good clock over entomb + genesis combo.

People have been playing Surival Rock for a long time. This is nothing new.

I like Entomb better for several reasons, though:

A) Entomb is faster.

Survival costs 1G, requires another G to pitch the first creature (assuming you have one), then another G to pitch Squee, then another G to pitch Genesis. If for arguments sake we assume that we have a creature in hand for the initial pitch, that costs 1GGGG vs B.

B) Survival gets removed by Pernicious Deed, which puts you in an akward position if you need to cast Deed with a Survival in play.

C) Entomb also gives access to Loam, which helps make consistent land drops. Loam also happens to grow Knight of the Reliquary, which adds another element of synergy to the deck.

D) Entomb/Genesis is also alot more resilient against hate in game 1, since enchantments are very easy to answer these days, and few people run maindeck graveyard hate.

Basically:
Most of the time, during the early game, you need to be casting removal, discard, and creatures. You don't have time to invest alot of mana up front to get an active Survival going. Entomb only costs 1 mana, can easily fit into the curve during the early game, and sets up Genesis. Once you have the mana to start using it, Genesis plays alot nicer with Pernicious Deed than Survival does.

brianw712

07-23-2010, 08:38 AM

zalachan

07-23-2010, 11:18 AM

Maybe if you cut 1 Shriekmaw for 1 Fleshbag Marauder or 1 Worm Harvest/Gigapede? 'Pede would be nice with al the Exalted triggers..

Hanni

07-23-2010, 02:06 PM

The list looks interesting, but I think the Pridemages are out of place. The whole Entomb/Genesis/Loam engine is pretty slow, but great when it starts working, so it looks like you want to go into the long game. Pridemages are pretty aggressive and don't do any good blocking, so I think they don't really fit into your deck. Maybe Kitchen Finks/Eternal Witness instead (Witness can make later Entombs into tutors, or make use of dredged cards). Also it might be beneficial to replace one Shriekmaw with a Fleshbag Marauder. Lastly, I never really liked Volrath's Stronghold in Rock decks, since I thought it was just too slow. Since you already run Genesis, it seems even less necessary. I would replace it with a utility land (Karakas, Bog, Maze, something like that).

The Genesis engine itself is somewhat slow, but the rest of the deck is not slow. Entomb only costs a single black mana to get Genesis in the yard; that's very little mana investment. That means I can set up my engine and still be aggressive in the early game. I don't need to use Genesis until the midgame, where it being slow is irrelevant, because I have the mana available to use it.

The Loam engine is only slow if you overuse it. If you just use it to make consistent land drops in the midgame, it's not slow.

Qasali Pridemage is a solid beater, all of the Exalted triggers are really good, and Qasali gives the deck additional answers to artifacts/enchantments, without running Vindicate. Qasali enables recurring artifact/enchantment removal with Genesis, which has been relevant for me several times.

Without counting the Genesis engine, running Qasali gives me 7 maindeck answers to artifacts/enchantment's (4 Deed 3 Qasali). Seems solid to me.

I haven't really felt a need for lifegain, so I'm not sure I'd want Finks, but Eternal Witness is good. I had him in my list originally, but cut him because he was a bit slow. He's still a really good card for the deck, and if I expected a slower metagame (more control, less Zoo), I'd consider fitting him in.

Replacing a Shriekmaw with a Fleshbag Marauder could be a good idea. I haven't ran into any issues yet where it mattered, but I could see it being good if I run into untargetable and/or black creatures. Fleshbag is also an answer to Progenitus, which I currently don't have any answers to.

The reason I added Stronghold is because Knight of the Reliquary can tutor for it, if for whatever reason I don't have Genesis in the yard (graveyard hate, never drew an Entomb, etc). However, I agree that Stronghold is unecessary in my deck. If I was going to cut it, I'd probably cut it for another Forest or something, instead of another utility land.