[Deck] The Rock

[sdematt]

Exactly, they can't dismantle your pieces of hate.

I remember the final round now.

Round 4: Dredge

I've played the guy many times, and it's pretty even. He's playing Max McCall's build, so I know what to expect.

Game 1: Board state ends up with me having 5 untapped lands, Doran, Tarmogoyf, Deed and a Dark Confidant. He has Iona on White (I have swords in hand), an 18/18 Grave-troll (he has no mana open), 2 Ichorids, and 6 Zombie tokens. I have 17 health. He swings all in, as I have lethal on the board anyway. My plan was leave the Ichorid's unblocked, allowing them to create zombies. I block some of the zombies, and chump the Grave-troll with Confidant, leaving me to Deed away all his Zombie tokens and swing for lethal. The problem? After doing the math, there's no way I can block to win it. I have to chump the Grave-troll, as I can't deed for 5 and swing for the win. I need one more blocker. Sadface.

In: Leyline of Sanctity, Leyline of the Void, Bojuka Bog
Out: Hymn to tourach, a Doran, Tombstalkers, etc.

Game 2: I start the game with a Leyline of the Void, which he bounces and then Cabal Therapy's away. I land Tarmogoyf and Nantucko Shade, along with a Sylvan Library. He can't breakthrough and has zero Dredgers, so he plays a Stinkweed Imp, which I Swords. I get there with heavy beats, and land another Leyline of the Void soonafter.

Game 3: I drop Leyline of the Void and he plays a city of Brass, followed by Nature's Claim. Fuck. I drop a land and pass. He Breakthrough's for 1, leaving one card in hand. I drop Sylvan library and pass. He breakthroughs again for one, revealing 4 Dredgers. I play Bojuka bog, and crush his hopes and dreams. I stick Doran/Tarmogoyf and go to town. He can't recover from losing that much tempo.

All in all, I feel I did very well. My losses were very close, and could have easily swung into my favour. I was hoping to play the Goblins player, as I know I could have won, but, the pairings were not in my favour.

-Matt

[Plague Sliver]

Nice list. Too bad you didn't get to play Goblins...at least you dream-crushed Dredge. Going to time in Round 1 sucks big time.

I don't know if this is crazy, but have you tried Enlightened Tutor? Even putting 2 in your maindeck could free up some SB slots. Since you're running W already, it might be worth a shot. Plus your list is pretty tight as it is. It just seemed worth a shot since you're running 2x Deed, 3x Top and maybe you don't have to go the full 4x Plague in the SB.

I don't know if it kills your tempo, though, since you usually want to be spending all your mana in the first 3 turns and don't want to be holding back to Tutor.

[SpikeyMikey]

Ever since they unbanned Entomb, I've been fascinated with using it in The Rock. I tried several previous builds that didn't work too well, and being preoccupied with other decks (and other things in general), I kinda put the idea on hold.

The reason why I like Entomb so much, is that it sets up an engine. The Rock is a midrange deck, and engines are what give this deck its midrange strength. Now, when most people think of engine, they probably immediately think of Life from the Loam. What most people probably don't think of, is Genesis.

That's right, Genesis.

Why Genesis? Well, Genesis is very unique. Unlike Volrath's Stronghold, Genesis actually creates card advantage. That's right, card advantage. Every upkeep, you get the option to pay 2G to return a creature to hand, and you still get your normal draw for the turn. This makes Genesis not just useful a means of recursion, it makes Genesis an engine.

What's so good about Genesis as an engine, though? Well, if you're playing with Pernicious Deed, you can sweep the board at will. It makes Pernicious Deed very asymmetrical. It also makes cards like Cabal Therapy alot stronger, too.

However, there's more to it than just wiping the board clean with Pernicious Deed, and then recurring your Tarmogoyf. Once you get Genesis in the yard, all future Entombs can tutor for any creature in the deck. That means recurring creature removal with Shriekmaw, and recurring artifact/enchantment removal with Qasali Pridemage.

Since the deck's already in G/B/w, we might as well toss in a Loam too. Since the deck is focused on abusing Genesis instead of Loam, Loam is there to simply ensure consistent land drops, and grow Knight of the Reliquary. With the ability to tutor for lands with Knight of the Reliquary (and possibly Entomb), a 2/1/1 split of Horizon Canopy, Wasteland, and Volrath's Stronghold doesn't sound like bad idea, either.

Here's the list I've started with:

G/B/w Entomb Rock

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [R] Bayou
2 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed


I just want to point out, that this deck is very resilient to graveyard hate. Even if the opponent does shut down Genesis, Loam, or both, the deck still functions very well without those cards. Their are only a few cards dedicated towards the engine, and the rest of the deck is a very efficient Rock shell.

I'd also like to say that Cabal Therapy has some savage synergy in this deck.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I'm highly debating if Birds of Paradise should be Noble Hierarch, even though Hierarch doesn't produce black mana. The exalted triggers would be very useful...

EDIT 2: I'm actually debating the accelerant slot altogether. Opinions on this?

Off the top of my head I would say dump the acceleration. Having 3 mana on turn 2 isn't important for you and they work poorly with Deed and Loam. Go to 23 or 24 lands. That leaves with 1 or 2 slots to increase consistency or add utility. Maybe a Withered Wretch as a Genesis target to hedge against GY decks and control opposing KotRs and Goyfs. Maybe that's getting too danger of cool things, I don't know. But turn 2 KotR is fairly unimpressive (unlikely to be out of bolt range) and T2 Deed should almost bever be necessary ( unless you're playing Belcher and they T1 EtW).

[Hanni]

Off the top of my head I would say dump the acceleration. Having 3 mana on turn 2 isn't important for you and they work poorly with Deed and Loam. Go to 23 or 24 lands. That leaves with 1 or 2 slots to increase consistency or add utility. Maybe a Withered Wretch as a Genesis target to hedge against GY decks and control opposing KotRs and Goyfs. Maybe that's getting too danger of cool things, I don't know. But turn 2 KotR is fairly unimpressive (unlikely to be out of bolt range) and T2 Deed should almost bever be necessary ( unless you're playing Belcher and they T1 EtW).

The mana dorks can be really nice early game for a number of reasons, like Cabal Therapy, but I've been considering Mother of Runes too.

Also, Faerie Macabre seems much better than Withered Wretch with Genesis.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think you're right. Faerie recursion costs less mana than removing things with Wretch and it's not vulnerable to StP.

[danpo]

I went 4-1-2 at GP Columbus this past weekend playing this list:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Serra Avenger
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Aether Vial
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile

Round one I beat Lands 2-0. Game one took forever because he couldn't find Loam and I couldn't find green to destroy his Ensnaring Bridge, until I did and killed him. Game two he mulled to four and I found two Crypts and the Bog. Without active Loam he could only hold on so long with Zuran Orb and Glacial Chasm.

Round two I lost 0-2 to Bant Survival. An attempt to stunt his two-lander with Wasteland and a Thoughtseize on his Brainstorm failed when he found more land, then his Goyf was bigger than mine thanks to double-exalted. I didn't even realize Survival was in there until game two when he broke a topdeck war wide open with Iona/Retainers.
The guy - Ben, I think? Super nice - went on to 7-0 day one, and I asked him afterward since I'm trying to get better if he spotted any obvious mistakes on my part. He didn't think so. Encouraging. Not my fault, right?

Round three I beat Enchantress 2-0. Game one I Thoughtseized his Argothian and then charged through an Elephant Grass before he could set up Moat. Game two he mulled to six and shrugged "I'll try this" and led with Taiga. My opener had two Wastelands and I figured no Enchantress player would lead with Taiga if he could avoid it. So I turn-one Wasted. He then spent two or three turns discarding on no land while I made a Dark Confidant and the rest was history.

Round four I drew the third game in time against UW/r Landstill. Humility and Engineered Explosives were really unfun to deal with, but my list isn't exactly a picnic for them either. At least Patrick was an entertaining opponent. I don't think he got an active planeswalker all match, and I know they were there because I Extirpated him.

Round five I 2-0'd Goblins. He called Mother of Runes "tricky" several times. She kept him off Goblin Lackey and I think Gempalm Incinerator and both games we landlocked until I could blow the game open with Jitte and big/bigs. Also he boarded in Relic which was just not that bad for me.

Round six I drew the third game against Lands, but admittedly the guy should have won. I hate Lands. I hate Maze of Ith and Ensnaring Bridge and Manabond and especially Tabernacle. Lots of frustrating upkeep/timing issues here to avoid letting Academy Ruins restore freshly-killed Bridges, etc. Don't care to say much more.

So I was officially out and told my last opponent I just wanted to cuss and bitch and play sloppy Magic. He complied; it was nice. We cussed at each other a lot, it was fun. I 2-0'd his UW/g Countertop/Thopter deck. And then I dropped and started celebrating my birthday with alcohol and fronting.

Hooray.

To sum up:
Beat and went to time/lost with Lands, went to time with UW/r Landstill, lost to Bant Survival, beat Goblins, Enchantress, UW/g Countertop Thopter.

I wish I'd played Mindcensor in the board over Canonist but frankly I cold forgot until it was too late. Would have helped against Lands I think.

Okay now I'm late for a lunch date so that is all.

Cheers

---

PS - By now you've seen the GWB deck that won a grinder and the one that top 8'd the GP. I like both but don't have time to say more. What do YOU think?

[brianw712]

I think Brad Nelson was inspired by the list I posted on page 25 of this thread, tuned it, and then forgot to give me credit:tongue:

[Neuad]

Round four I drew the third game in time against UW/r Landstill. Humility and Engineered Explosives were really unfun to deal with, but my list isn't exactly a picnic for them either. At least Patrick was an entertaining opponent. I don't think he got an active planeswalker all match, and I know they were there because I Extirpated him.


Long black hair, funny but extremely serious about it?

[danpo]

@ Neuad - Yeah. I'm pretty sure he's friends with Master Shake on here. And yeah, he doesn't seem to think winning and being a fun opponent are mutually exclusive, which meant a lot to me even if us drawing amounted to a loss.

@ Wilson's list (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpcol10/welcome)-

I wonder about a few of the choices there. What would the rationale be behind one Deed main and two more in the board? I guess the assumption is that if game one goes long you'll have time to draw it and blow the game open?

Why only three Mox Diamonds? It seems like an awkward contrast with Deed.

And how often do you use Knight to find Horizon Canopy or Maze of Ith? The match-ups where you really desperately want such a card, Karakas seems just as good. Bouncing Emrakul or Iona is better than un-attacking them, and neither matters against Progenitus, plus Karakas taps for W.

Not saying any of these choices is wrong - the deck topped a GP, after all - but I'm curious what the pros/cons of these decisions are, and the logic behind them.

[Neuad]

@ Neuad - Yeah. I'm pretty sure he's friends with Master Shake on here. And yeah, he doesn't seem to think winning and being a fun opponent are mutually exclusive, which meant a lot to me even if us drawing amounted to a loss.

He is, I know exactly who you are talking about. He's a blast to hang around with. Him and Master Shake are both extremely funny people.

[sdematt]

10 pieces of discard seems like a lot, to be honest. As well, the anti-synergy with Deed and Mox is enormous, so maybe that's why he's playing only 1 Deed. It makes sense that he might just use the Moxes early, grow Knight, pump out the fat early, and then not care Turn 10 when he Deeds for infinite. Honestly, I'd rather see Stronghold instead of Maze.

All in all, congrats to him for taking Rock to the Top! :D

-Matt

[Sharpened]

I wonder about a few of the choices there. What would the rationale be behind one Deed main and two more in the board? I guess the assumption is that if game one goes long you'll have time to draw it and blow the game open?

Originally the list ran 3 gerrad's verdict and had Deeds in the board (a full set of four). Testing showed that if you didn't win or lose early, you'd reduce your opponent to topdecking, and if you didn't have an active confidant, you were often in the same boat. The amount of discard the deck would topdeck into was a bit frustrating, and a way to gain card advantage on things in play seemed necessary. That brought a deed to the main, reducing the amount of discard down to 10 from 11.




Why only three Mox Diamonds? It seems like an awkward contrast with Deed.

Becuase 4 is too many. Drawing 4 mox diamonds is pretty horrible. But the card is good, and speeding up a turn is rather strong. Turn 1 Hymn's and confidants can change games, and turn 2 Knights at 4/4 is mighty good as well. It also makes hitting your color requirements easier, as the mana base of the Kowal special is a little fragile at times. The anti synnergy with Deed is pretty minimal. Odds are, if your mana screwed, Deed isn't going to be helping you anyway. Besides, nothing in the deck costs more than 3. And I can't count the times that I've played a mox, choosing not to discard a land, solely to beef up my goyf and speed up the clock.



And how often do you use Knight to find Horizon Canopy or Maze of Ith? The match-ups where you really desperately want such a card, Karakas seems just as good. Bouncing Emrakul or Iona is better than un-attacking them, and neither matters against Progenitus, plus Karakas taps for W.

Fairly often. Last I checked, Emrakul and Iona aren't the only creatures in the format. Obviously you get Karakas for those creatures, for other creatures you get Maze. It makes attacking for you opponent very problematic. Hell, on his last match of Day 2, I watched Kowal beating a zoo player with his knight, and using maze of ith post combat damage to untap it, then get to use the knights ability at end of turn. Also, the fact that he had Maze out slowed the zoo player down and led to the victory in that game. Horizon Canopy is a fine card in a deck that functions on 3 mana sources and still plays a long game. Being able to turn 1 of your lands in play into an extra card in hand is good last I checked. As for Progentius, obviously, you cant use a land to beat him. That's why there were edict effects in the board.



Not saying any of these choices is wrong - the deck topped a GP, after all - but I'm curious what the pros/cons of these decisions are, and the logic behind them.

[SpikeyMikey]

It seemed to me that Diamond was really there so the deck could play turbo-Hymn. Which is cute, but not, I think something I would want to play in tournament. You're trading consistency for power, and if you look at the top decks in the format (not just at the GP, but overall, the DTB's for the last year), they're all the most stable forms of their respective archetypes.

[caiomarcos]

It seemed to me that Diamond was really there so the deck could play turbo-Hymn. Which is cute, but not, I think something I would want to play in tournament. You're trading consistency for power, and if you look at the top decks in the format (not just at the GP, but overall, the DTB's for the last year), they're all the most stable forms of their respective archetypes.


Why is Mox less consistent? Legitimate question!

I see it as a colored mana source that's not Wastable, not PoPable and not BtBasicable. It pumps your Reliquary and accelerates into broken turn 1 and 2 plays.

[ivanpei]

I've been working on a similar list to the one that top 8ed, we run the same creatures but my approach is totally different. I prefer to run more controllish to offset the mox's card disadvantage. The way I see it, the clock is not terribly fast anyways, so why not play more controllish? My list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords
3 Top
3 EE
3 Vindicate
4 Intuition
4 Mox diamond
1 Life from the loam
1 Crucible

1 Volrath
1 Academy ruins
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
1 Forest
3 Savanna
2 Bayou
2 Tropical
1 Scrubland

It folds to combo I assure you, but it is exceptionally good vs mid range and a resolved intuition = unending headaches vs control. Aggro is 50/50, excellent vs folk (just dont search out the trop, use a mox instead) so-so vs zoo. Most importantly, this is endless fun. The cards all synergize well with each other. For those who would prefer a more controllish take on the rock, this is my suggestion as a starting point. Some card choice explanations:

Goyf and bob are straight forward, they do what they do very well. Knight of the reliquary on the other hand is amazing. I was playing knight in zoo and new horizons and realised that this dude is not being used to its full potential. What if we used it in a controllish build? It not only fetches what you need (maze, recursion via stronghold/ruins/wasteland) EVERY turn, it also has a huge body to block. You can even block, and still seach eot.This is gas +answer+ disruption+ size in one card. This list fully abuses KOTR as loam and crucible allows you to consistently make drops everyturn. So while you have it, why not play an accelerator that takes advantage of it as well: mox diamond. It fixes your mana, gives you turn 1 goyfs/bobs. Late top decks are great in conjunction with crucible/loam. Only downside is not being able to play deed, but I wont want to sweep my bob/knight/goyfs anyhow. I play EE instead, it serves the same role as deed, albeit more narrowly. However, it can be recurred with academy ruins. Try this list out, its a ton of fun while not being TOO terrible. :)

[brianw712]

Why is Mox less consistent? Legitimate question!

Mox is comparable to a card like Dark Ritual; good for explosive early starts, bad when it comes to topdecking late game. Once you've made your third land drop, you really don't want to draw a Mox.

[ivanpei]

IMO mox diamond should not be run in any deck without either loam or crucible. Like mentioned above, you don't want to see it late. It does fuel explosive starts and is a bad topdeck, another downside is that, unlike ritual, you can't cut lands for moxes. If say you went ritual-less to ritualed (like reanimator) you could cut like 2 lands. Adding moxes to a deck still requires you to keep the same land count. So you have 4 extra manasources instead of just 2 in the case of ritual. This really hurts your lategame.

[zalachan]

I can see pros and cons for Diamonds, and while you may not like it, i like them alot. The problem with the Rock for me is, frankly, that it's just a bit too fair. I mean, considering what other decks can do on their 1st-3rd turns, most of the time we just try to respond (quickly enough if possible) to their broken plays. Diamond cuts the 1-2-3 routine with 1st turn Hymns/Goyfs, but sacrificing its lategame a bit.
I mean it's nothing new in the book, but i like it more than Dark Ritual or the SFM package If it feels inconsistent, i still like them more than that illusionary safety that SFM brings to "untuned" decks. I always feel wrong when i am equiping my guys at sorcery speed.. heck, i feel wrong if i need to equip my guys at all..
Considering Crucible- could a pair of those maybe run in the SB? I mean, that would just make that BWG Junk an evil twin brother of New Horizons:) Too cute maybe..

[SpikeyMikey]

Mox is comparable to a card like Dark Ritual; good for explosive early starts, bad when it comes to topdecking late game. Once you've made your third land drop, you really don't want to draw a Mox.

This. The deck has little manipulation and Mox is dead after turn 2 (you curve out at 3 mana). With 3 in the deck, you've got less than a 50% chance of seeing one in the first 8.5 cards (assuming 50% play and 50% draw), so in over half your games it's a dead draw. Plus a double Diamond opening is unkeepable. 2 for 1ing yourself can be ok sometimes, but in this deck it's gwnerally just bad and you don't run enough draw/filter to justify it on the strength of T1 Hymn...

[sdematt]

I think Noble Hierarch is better in this slot than Mox. She gets taken out by your Deed, but also pumps up your attack, so it's not a dead draw later in the game.

-Matt

[brianw712]

I think Noble Hierarch is better in this slot than Mox. She gets taken out by your Deed, but also pumps up your attack, so it's not a dead draw later in the game.


I agree. Plus, a two land hand with Hierarch looks a lot better than a two land hand with a Mox.

[Renato]

Originally the list ran 3 gerrad's verdict and had Deeds in the board (a full set of four). Testing showed that if you didn't win or lose early, you'd reduce your opponent to topdecking, and if you didn't have an active confidant, you were often in the same boat. The amount of discard the deck would topdeck into was a bit frustrating, and a way to gain card advantage on things in play seemed necessary. That brought a deed to the main, reducing the amount of discard down to 10 from 11.




Becuase 4 is too many. Drawing 4 mox diamonds is pretty horrible. But the card is good, and speeding up a turn is rather strong. Turn 1 Hymn's and confidants can change games, and turn 2 Knights at 4/4 is mighty good as well. It also makes hitting your color requirements easier, as the mana base of the Kowal special is a little fragile at times. The anti synnergy with Deed is pretty minimal. Odds are, if your mana screwed, Deed isn't going to be helping you anyway. Besides, nothing in the deck costs more than 3. And I can't count the times that I've played a mox, choosing not to discard a land, solely to beef up my goyf and speed up the clock.



Fairly often. Last I checked, Emrakul and Iona aren't the only creatures in the format. Obviously you get Karakas for those creatures, for other creatures you get Maze. It makes attacking for you opponent very problematic. Hell, on his last match of Day 2, I watched Kowal beating a zoo player with his knight, and using maze of ith post combat damage to untap it, then get to use the knights ability at end of turn. Also, the fact that he had Maze out slowed the zoo player down and led to the victory in that game. Horizon Canopy is a fine card in a deck that functions on 3 mana sources and still plays a long game. Being able to turn 1 of your lands in play into an extra card in hand is good last I checked. As for Progentius, obviously, you cant use a land to beat him. That's why there were edict effects in the board.

Have you consider Volrath Stronghold as another silver bullet or you think it is too slow?

[Sharpened]

Have you consider Volrath Stronghold as another silver bullet or you think it is too slow?

I considered it and tested it the week before the GP. It was definitely underwhelming. It's quite slow, and won't particularly help you much against the aggro decks. Against control decks, its fine, but not exactly great. More often then not when I was having trouble sticking creatures they weren't in the graveyard (Swords, Path). I mean, it works sometimes becuase they counter your creatures and you just run them out of countermagic. Of course, the amount of times that happens AND you either stuck a Knight for a turn or drew the singleton stronghold is pretty low. And adding another colorless mana source is not something your eager to do with the decks current manabase.

[JimmyC27]

Yo there,

Been playing this deck for a while, and came across a couple questions. I read about 20 pages back on this thread, and didn't see any discussion on them. If I need to go back further to find this discussion, lemme know. :)

1) What's the logic on Swords over Path? If you aren't running Sinkholes, it seems better to give them basic land (if they have any) than to give them life. On the flip side, giving them land seems to help pick up their tempo, which isn't what this deck wants to promote. Which removal spell is better here?

2) I've been dinking around with what to do on my last 4 open slots. Has anyone tried 3x Natural Order, 1x Progenitus in their builds? I realize we don't run any counters to support the Natural Order like Bant does. However, if the opponent doesn't see any blue mana perhaps it's a decent plan b win condition one could sneak through.

Thoughts? Thanks.

-Jimmy

[brianw712]

@JimmyC27:

1) Pretty much the consensus on the Swords/Path discussion is that, in any non-Zoo deck, Swords > Path. The Rock isn't trying to kill the opponent as fast as possible, so the life boost isn't too relevant. However, some builds of The Rock try to capitalize on tempo by playing Noble Hierarch/Birds of Paradise, and that tempo is completely negated if you play a Path on one of their creatures. Not to mention you can Swords your own creature for the life against Burn or Zoo, while Pathing your own creature for life is a lot less rewarding.

2) That's entirely dependent on the rest of your deck, so if you're willing to share your list, I'll be happy to tell you what I think. Personally, I like Elspeth better as a finisher, since you'll never randomly draw that Progenitus with no way to put it back, and it doesn't cost you a creature if it gets countered.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I've been reading this thread for a bit and figured I'd add my two cents into the mix. I've been playing around with what is essentially a rock deck. I took it the the grand prix columbus and did fairly decent with it. Went 7-1-1 on day 1 and ended up at 71st place in the end. Both days started off with me losing followed by winning out the rest of the day. After playing it there here's what I have to say. First off, there was not a matchup where I felt like I didn't have a good chance of winning; there was never a time where the matchup was drastically in their favor. Also I feel that I placed 71st because of my play skill. I made a lot of errors and things like that, therefore I can't blame it on the deck. I honestly think if I had played better (more sleep would have helped this) the deck would have went a lot further. At some points the deck actually picked up the slack from my bad plays and still won me matches. Here's my list

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Terravore

Sorceries
3 Life from the Loam
3 Vindicate
1 Worm Harvest
1 Firespout

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ghastly Demise

Artifacts
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamonds

Lands
3 Wateland
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Secluded Steppe
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Savanah
1 Plateau
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Treetop village
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
3 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Firespout
1 Tabernacle at Pendril Vale

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Initially I did have Bobs in the main because the card advantage is sick, but I started to change the build to be more metagamed. I was preparing more for the aggro matchup especially zoo as I knew that was going to be the deck to beat. That's why you see Kitchen Finks in the main rather than Dark Confidant. This was a bit of a last minute switch and after playing at the GP, there were a few changes I made to the build. I realized even without the md firespout, this deck has a lot of game vs. zoo or any aggro decks. So I swapped that for a maindeck eternal witness which is pretty good vs zoo also because it can recur swords or demise. Also i swapped the 4 Bobs in the side for 4 Leyline of Santity. The reason for this is because up until the combo matchup was just a throw away. With sanctity around, it actually gives somewhat of a chance. I've been thinking of trying to fit maze of ith into the main somewhere and also maybe trying to include a karakas somewhere into the 75, but I'm not sure how relevant it is anymore.

I played against a TON of bant decks at the GP. Everything from counterbalance style ones to new horizons to the natural order/progenitus style ones. These were all pretty easy wins. Nothing like paying 4 for Engineered Explosives at 2. One game they had me on a CB lock with a 2 and a 3 on top. So every turn I dredged my loam only for it to be countered just looking to get to that worm harvest. This deck proved to be a lot of fun and definitely very potent. The graveyard hate in the form of extirpate and bog are priceless and Tabernacle steals a lot of games.

I'm sure most of the options for this build are self explanatory so I won't go into any real details. Quasali was a bit of a last minute add too, but it proved to be a real team player. While every other guy was eating swords to plowshares, he was usually the beater that got in for 9 or more damage. The one of terravore helps confuse the opponent and hope they bring in a ton of graveyard hate. Usually people will bring in graveyard hate in this matchup when they see loam. So games 2 and 3 end up playing out just as a rock deck. The 2 of ghastly demise in the md completely rocked the house. I wasn't sure of how well it'd work out, but definitely beats path to exile here. I completely dropped the discard idea and decided to just go for the beats and blow up. It turned out pretty good.

I've tinkered with a few different variations of the deck, including playing stoneforge mystic and the equipment package, also tried playing deed, but this one worked out best for me. If you've read all this and tried to comprehend my writing and are still reading, congratulations!

Please let me know your input here, thanks!

[zalachan]

Congrats on yor finish!
The deck seems nice, i allways liked Worm Harvest. Your list takes a walk into a Trisomy park and still comes out as a Rock:)
@ Leyline of Sanctity- how does it fare against combo? Did you try it? I guess it can be pretty good with your list, since you dont play discard.
@ Maze of Ith- i just love that card with Knight. But the deck seems to be pretty tight..

[AggroSteve]

i am playing maze of ith as well and i can only suggest you to try it yourself, it simply rocks the house^^

@ Magicsk8ngenius: i have to say i like your liste very much, its definetly a different aproach to a rock deck, and i right now am thinking after a lot of testing with my 3 different rock lists, that maybe we should all try to construct so sorts of hybrid decks since i think the rock is the only deck which can actually support hybrid builds

in the past few pages of this thread came up so many different approaches to this deck that i am seduced to try out a completely different approach to this deck, because i have to say maybe the fact that rock decks can be so different could actually be our greatest advantage, since no one really can know how to play against your deck

i was curious as well about leyline of sanctity, i was wondering if it can alone stall the combo matchup long enough so we could win this game even without discard

[sdematt]

Leyline of Sanctity is great in the Storm Matchup. They have to either find their few bounce spells without Mystical, or they'll go Empty the Warrens. The nice thing? you're playing Tabernacle. Im thinking this matchup should be fine for you.

Also, I'd think about putting a Karakas somewhere in the 75. Emrakul and Iona are still relevant, the Emrakul moreso. He's a menace if he hits the board, so you want a way to remove him. Maze won't stop Annihilator. That is the main problem.

But, Maze does hit Dreadnought, Tombstalker, etc.


More when I finish my exams.


-Matt

[Magicsk8ngenius]

Zalachan is right, the list is pretty tight which makes it a little hard to fit maze in, which I'd really like to fit it in somewhere. Maybe in place of treetop village, since it's rarely relevant. The thing is that when treetop is good, it can win games. I sometimes run into problems with tombstalker though. Even though he's smaller than my dudes usually, he flies. Maze seems like a good answer here.

Leyline of Sanctity: I haven't done any real playtesting with it but I did toss it into my build at a local legacy tournament this wednesday. I played against belcher and here's how it went. After losing game 1 on turn 1 i brought in leylines, needles, firespout, and tabernacle. I kept a 7 card hand with leyline and tabernacle, nothing else mattered. I dropped the leyline and another land and said go. This forced him to empty the warrens, which he did. Tabernacle hit the board and it said game over for him. Game 3 I mulligan down to 3 searching for leyline. I end up keeping 2 lands and a needle. He does nothing and says go... I drop the needle naming belcher of course. He says go again. I drop a second fetch and play loam that was off a top deck. He empties for 14 guys or whatever. My only real chance here is to either try to top deck a firespout or dredge hoping to hit tabernacle. I'm pretty sure that statistically my chance are better with dredging and hoping for tabernacle, so that's what I do failing to find it and lose.

I can't really base much off of one match's results but I'm pretty sure that leyline of sanctity is much needed here. If it's against storm combo, they are a little slower to begin with and vulnerable to wastelocks. Even though they have a better chance to take out the leyline by digging for a bounce spell, this can give me some extra time to put enough damage through. This deck can sometimes explode with a giant knight knocking at your door on turn 3.

[SpikeyMikey]

I run a 3/3 split of Edict and Plow. Most of the time, when I want to hit a specific creature and edict won't do it, I probably want to sweep the board anyway. Edict gets around pesky things like Emrakul and Progenitus, as well as giving me a good split for Iona.

I'm starting to really love KotR. I've beaten a turn 3 Emrakul and a Progenitus off SnT today with double KotR. He's such a beat stick. The Emrakul guy SnT'd, I dropped a second KotR, used him to pull fetches and fetch twice when he attacked, dumped all 3 of my lands in the yard, went to 1, then turned around and smacked him for 20 with double KotR. Re-damn-diculous.

[JimmyC27]

@JimmyC27:

1) Pretty much the consensus on the Swords/Path discussion is that, in any non-Zoo deck, Swords > Path. The Rock isn't trying to kill the opponent as fast as possible, so the life boost isn't too relevant. However, some builds of The Rock try to capitalize on tempo by playing Noble Hierarch/Birds of Paradise, and that tempo is completely negated if you play a Path on one of their creatures. Not to mention you can Swords your own creature for the life against Burn or Zoo, while Pathing your own creature for life is a lot less rewarding.

2) That's entirely dependent on the rest of your deck, so if you're willing to share your list, I'll be happy to tell you what I think. Personally, I like Elspeth better as a finisher, since you'll never randomly draw that Progenitus with no way to put it back, and it doesn't cost you a creature if it gets countered.


Here's the list, nothing too crazy:

Land (23)

2x Scrubland
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
3x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas (or Bojuka Bog depending on the meta)
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Wasteland

Creatures (15)

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Knight of the Reliquary

Stuff (22)

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn
4x Swords
4x Vindicate
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Crucible of Worlds

Board (15)

2x Krosan Grip
4x Mindbreak Trap
3x Engineered Plague
3x Diabolic Edict
2x Choke
1x Karakas or Bojuka Bog



I was playing around with -4 Hymn, +3 NO, +1 Pro. My logic was that even though you get a solid 2 for 1 with Hymn, you don't get to pick the cards you discard, and that seems a little risky. I also hate drawing excess discard late game. Dunno if it'll work, but I'm open to feedback. Thanks homie.

-Jimmy

[AggroSteve]

all these new approaches we have seen in the last pages made me think a bit about my own build, in which i was not totaly satisfied with a few cardchoices

right now i am tinkering a bit with following list

22 lands

3x verdant catacombs
3x windswepth heath
2x bloodstained mire (still do not have march flats)
2x overgrown tomb
1x godless shrine
1x temple garden
2x swamp
2x forest
2x plains
1x volrath's stronghold / karakas (depending on meta)
1x horizon canopy
1x wasteland
1x maze of ith

16 creatures

4x tarmogoyf
3x knight of the reliquary
4x kitchen finks
3x dark confidant
2x eternal witness

23 spells

3x senseis divining top
4x swords to plowshares
2x ghastly demise
3x vindicate
3x pernicous deed
2x life from the loam
1x ravens crime
1x worms harvest
4x thoughtsieze

Sideboard

1x bojuka bog
4x leyline of the void
3x diabolic edict
3x leyline of sanctity (if you all tell me they are so strong against combo, i sure will get them, though not sure on the number of copies)
2x krosan grip
2x pinthing needle

i was hoping you all could give me some feedback on this list, i was also wondering what you think of ravens crime, has it still any use or is it to narrow, if its to narrow in your opinion it will probably be cut for another horizon canopy

[damionblackgear]

@Both Steve & Jimmy, Why not main the utility lands? You both play a ton of lands, cut a dual to get what you need done. It won't really be too much of an issue if you cut a dual for a Karakas or an extra swamp for a Bog.

[brianw712]

@JimmyC27: Hmm, I tried something a little like that list before, and what I found was that the manabase was too unstable. Your manabase only has 19 color-producing lands, four of which only produce one color. Also, you have a BB requirement on turn two due to Hymn, as well as 13 cards that cost 3. I found that this caused me to be mauled by any deck with the Stifle/Waste/Daze package, including Merfolk, New Horizons, Tempo Thresh, etc. Including Natural Order wouldn't help these matchups, since it costs four (five if you need to play around Daze), and would require you to play Dryad Arbor, which might put even more strain on your manabase. Also, you only play 11 green creatures (12 with Dryad Arbor) for Natural Order, which is about what CounterTop Bant plays, but you don't play cantrips to find those creatures nor CounterTop to protect them from Swords. I think playing some sort of accelerator like Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise (or Mox Diamond like Brad Nelson did) would help the list the most.

[sdematt]

@ Aggrosteve

Nice list! Your list looks like a cross between Trisomy 21 and the Rock. I'll be honest here, Raven's crime seems alright here, assuming you get Loam online. So it being only 2 slots is fine, since it's not your main discard package

-------------------------

When I was using 3 Leyline of Sanctity in the board, I was always wanting 4 in the Matchups it mattered in.

I really love how the Rock can take so many different directions and still be the Rock. It's so fun to brainstorm :D

Have you guys been trying Sylvan Library? Even as a one-of with Confidants and Tops, it gets freaking ridiculous. Top, stack to lose no life to confidant, draw 3 from Sylvan, put back 2 OR draw an extra? Dig 4 every turn?

It sucks with Deed mind you, but in the matchups I've had it online, it's been wonderful. The 4 life can be a hit, but it's not much more you'd take off a hard Confidant hit.

I'll be posting a list I did decently alright with the other day. I'll post tomorrow.



-Matt

[AggroSteve]

after more testing i have done i have come to the conclusion that ravens crime can really rock the house :D, honestly if you get startet early with loam and crime you probably will not have anything to fear anymore, by turn 3 the opponent will have lost 4 cards (of 10) and it wrecks control completely

i was not that happy with worms harvest though, first i thought it would be extremely broken but, most of the times i just got 3 or 4 tokens not more, i think if i will keep loam in the list this slot will possibly go to gigapede

i was wondering about other ways i could get something into the list with which i could build an engine for card advantage from, or should i just put some cycle lands in there, so i will have a higher count of lands in total, which actually would not be that bad, specially since i have only 21 manaproducing lands, but what to cut in that case, and what options of other cardchoices would fit the deck well

and man, its quite difficult to play with loam in a rock build, specially since i love to know what i draw thanks to divining top,
in my testings, if i did not have it i screwed up way to often because i dredged because i did not know what i would draw, which is not acceptable, specially since i have recursion mainly for my lands, and otherwise only witness and stronghold, which is not that efficient in recurring other stuff, because its way to slow, does anyone have suggestions here?

a question i have is, what if you draw with sylvan library, but you do actually dredge for your loam, what happens to the "lose life trigger", do you lose life or do you not lose any?

i would love the help, and i think i actually need some with this list^^, so please tell me everything that comes to your mind

[Magicsk8ngenius]

Jimmy - Your list seems pretty solid and i like it. I would consider dropping a savanah for another land that produces black because of the double black requirement if you're running hymn. The tops work well with bob, though you may also want to think about mirri's guile, it doesn't suck up all your mana and allows you to do other things with it. since you are drawing 2 per turn, this is pretty important.

Aggrosteve - I've played a few variations of rock and currently been doing well with the loam, you can find my list on the previous page. Worm harvest certainly doesn't fit your list because you're not loam heavy. It's almost like loam is just tossed into there. I think you need to add more synergy to make loam shine or just take it out. It's better just all or nothing, otherwise it's just underpowered. I never liked the raven's crime. It never did what i wanted to and always just sucked, even with my land/loam heavy build, but i've seen a lot of other people play it who say they like it so i'm not sure. Definitely 4x leyline of sanctity!

[AggroSteve]

well raven's crime can provide you with a softlock other than the wastelock, which is quite useful, but if you like it or not probably depends heavily on your own playstyle, i for my part like softlocks^^, and in fact loam is actually in my list just for that cause, to provide me a softlocks, and to assist the divining top shenanigans so i could always search for the cards i need

but i think you are right regarding worms harvest and as well on the all or nothing principle, until now i have not been overwhelmed by loam, at least not in the list i am right now playing because as you stated there is not enough synergy in my list to use loams potential to the fulliest, i will try some other things with the list now, and see how it works out for me, maybe i will try cutting confidant for a stronger loam approach, not sure though yet, or i will take loam out again and try a different approach

thanks for your comments though, they helped a lot

@ Magicsk8ngenius: i still have one question reguarding your list, when i started using loam and i dredged i often lost a lot of my removal, did you have the same problem in your list, and if yes, how did you solve this problem?

[sdematt]

That's the reason why you're also running Top: you have to time your Loams. You can't just Loam all the time like 43 Land, and that's why I find the deck usually needs to be Loam based, or just play it like Landstill does: get a few lands back, but you use it to help against getting Wastelanded, not as your primary engine like 43 Land.

I see your point with Raven's crime being the nuts. If you play Trisomy 21 (which I think you should try out), you'll see Raven's Crime IS Mind Twist in that deck because you've also playing 4 Loam and 6 cycling lands.

Also Steve: dual land prices have cooled off for the time being. Time to take your Lemonade stand money and get some! :tongue:

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

i was wondering how trisomy 21 list look like right now, because in the trisomy thread the latest post with a GBW list is about 5 or 6 month old

ravens crime can definitely be extremely strong, and now that i have done some testing with the list i realized how to use loam the most efficient way i think, maybe i will be cutting confidant just to see if i like it better with more loams in the deck

but i do not think that i will actually go all trisomy with my build, because i will never cut goyf, knight of the reliquary and kitchen finks again i like them just too much, maybe though i will build a more hybrid-list of the decktypes, that would be possible, i definitely could see gigapede fit the deck, i'll try, and see how i like it, if not that much, i will try another approach again to my rock-list

and yes i will surely get me some duals, losing life just because i need mana sucks

[zalachan]

i was wondering how trisomy 21 list look like right now, because in the trisomy thread the latest post with a GBW list is about 5 or 6 month old
I once tested that deck and it was retarded (hence the name, i guess) but afaik it has some problems against fast aggro like Vials or Zoo..


i will never cut goyf, knight of the reliquary and kitchen finks again
I was just thinking of Trisomy list with Knights, that's something i would play..

[JimmyC27]

@JimmyC27: Hmm, I tried something a little like that list before, and what I found was that the manabase was too unstable. Your manabase only has 19 color-producing lands, four of which only produce one color. Also, you have a BB requirement on turn two due to Hymn, as well as 13 cards that cost 3. I found that this caused me to be mauled by any deck with the Stifle/Waste/Daze package, including Merfolk, New Horizons, Tempo Thresh, etc. Including Natural Order wouldn't help these matchups, since it costs four (five if you need to play around Daze), and would require you to play Dryad Arbor, which might put even more strain on your manabase. Also, you only play 11 green creatures (12 with Dryad Arbor) for Natural Order, which is about what CounterTop Bant plays, but you don't play cantrips to find those creatures nor CounterTop to protect them from Swords. I think playing some sort of accelerator like Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise (or Mox Diamond like Brad Nelson did) would help the list the most.

I haven't had trouble with the mana base, but I also haven't been stifled/wastedlanded/dazed often either. I normally try to keep a two handed land, and go Scrubland, Bayou, then Savannah. This normally sets me up to do pretty much do anything I need to. How are you laying out your lands? Have you tried the George Baxter analysis through Magic Workstation?


Jimmy - Your list seems pretty solid and i like it. I would consider dropping a savanah for another land that produces black because of the double black requirement if you're running hymn. The tops work well with bob, though you may also want to think about mirri's guile, it doesn't suck up all your mana and allows you to do other things with it. since you are drawing 2 per turn, this is pretty important.

Mirri's Guile looks awesome. I'll check it and give it some testing. Thanks yo!

[JimmyC27]

@Both Steve & Jimmy, Why not main the utility lands? You both play a ton of lands, cut a dual to get what you need done. It won't really be too much of an issue if you cut a dual for a Karakas or an extra swamp for a Bog.

Seems like stretching beyond 3 non-mana producing lands runs me tight on mana. I'll give -1 Savannah +1 Karakas some testing though. I never seem to drop more than 1 Savannah during a game.

[brianw712]

I haven't had trouble with the mana base, but I also haven't been stifled/wastedlanded/dazed often either. I normally try to keep a two handed land, and go Scrubland, Bayou, then Savannah. This normally sets me up to do pretty much do anything I need to. How are you laying out your lands? Have you tried the George Baxter analysis through Magic Workstation?

Well I don't play the same build anymore, I'm testing a more aggro build with ~27 creatures atm. But when I did play the build like yours I would put Bayou/Scrubland into play, and finally Savannah. Against an unknown deck, or against a deck I knows plays Wasteland, I would try to fetch basics whenever possible, even if it means cutting off some of my options. Getting Wastelanded early on a two land hand can lose you the game; playing Dark Confidant instead of Hymn on turn two might not.

Never heard of the George Baxter analysis, I generally just put as many lands in as "feels right." Don't know if this is the best way to do things, but it's the way I've always done it.

[JimmyC27]

Magic Workstation (www.magicworkstation.com) has some mana analytic on it, based on casting needs. Seems like if you can fetch up about 14 sources of any one color from this deck, you should be alright. Regardless, first turn stifle on a two land hand is really rough to draw out of.

[sdematt]

You can check and see how many of each mana symbol appear out of the total (example, 27 black out of your total on all cards). Then, you see which are your primary, secondary, and tertiary colours. By knowing the amount of lands you have space for, and the percentage of stuff that's black, you can determine how many of each land type you'll need. Example, 15/30 mana casting costs are black, so you'll need about 50% of your lands producing black, maybe even a bit more to make sure you have that colour.

That's how I usually design the manabase, and it works decently well.

Speaking of Trisomy 21, the deck is the absolute nuts against anything NOT Storm based. It has so much LD, it's so dirty. Problem being, it's a hard deck to board with, as it's Loam based.

-Matt

[JimmyC27]

You can check and see how many of each mana symbol appear out of the total (example, 27 black out of your total on all cards). Then, you see which are your primary, secondary, and tertiary colours. By knowing the amount of lands you have space for, and the percentage of stuff that's black, you can determine how many of each land type you'll need. Example, 15/30 mana casting costs are black, so you'll need about 50% of your lands producing black, maybe even a bit more to make sure you have that colour.

Yo, that's interesting. How do you take into account average casting cost? For example, a Legacy deck is probably around 1.5 - 2.5 average casting cost, where a Type 2 deck would more likely be 2.5 - 3+. Do you usually shoot for around 18-22 mana producing lands?

Cheers,
Jimmy

[Magicsk8ngenius]

@Aggrosteve: Yes, I do dredge a lot of removal into the grave, but it's all in how you use the loam. Unlike 43 lands, you're not loaming all day everyday. Typically you do it on an as needed basis. Sometimes when you absolutely need and answer you can, but it's important on what you bring back. This is the reason why I play 6 cycle lands. When looking for answers the loam will bring back a land + two cycle lands (aka two draw spells) or if it's later in the game or I'm desperate for an answer loam brings back 3 cycling lands (aka 3 draw spells) This will tend to find any answers needed. Otherwise you can just loam to keep a wastelock going, build up knight/terravore or if you're playing against a control deck, just build up that card advantage by getting them cycling lands going.

Playing loam in this way makes it so that when you draw those mox diamonds later in the game, they're not dead draws, just a second land for the turn really and help you draw insane amounts of cards. All the while feeding knight and terravore.

[sdematt]

To do average cost, you can find out how many you have total (total spells), and see how many you have of each, and see what percentage.

Example, you have 3/15 spells that cost 2, 2/15 3-drops, and 10/15 1 drops, you need some percentages.

2 Drops: 20% of total (.20)
1 drops: 66% of toal (.66)
3 drops: 14% of total (.14)

(2x2) + (2x3) + (10x1)= some number

(some number)/15 = average CMC. You're basically adding up the total casting cost of every card, then dividing by the total number of cards to get the average. The percentages are there to show how top or bottom heavy your deck is. Also, I thought I needed them for something else, but apparently, I didn't.

In Rock, if your curve is ~2 (1.8-2.2) I tend to find 19 mana producers + utility lands enough. If you're curving closer to 3, 22 Mana producers are your safe bet. You also have to expect getting Wastelanded twice, conservatively.

-Matt

[JimmyC27]

To do average cost, you can find out how many you have total (total spells), and see how many you have of each, and see what percentage.

Example, you have 3/15 spells that cost 2, 2/15 3-drops, and 10/15 1 drops, you need some percentages.

2 Drops: 20% of total (.20)
1 drops: 66% of toal (.66)
3 drops: 14% of total (.14)

(2x2) + (2x3) + (10x1)= some number

(some number)/15 = average CMC. You're basically adding up the total casting cost of every card, then dividing by the total number of cards to get the average. The percentages are there to show how top or bottom heavy your deck is. Also, I thought I needed them for something else, but apparently, I didn't.

In Rock, if your curve is ~2 (1.8-2.2) I tend to find 19 mana producers + utility lands enough. If you're curving closer to 3, 22 Mana producers are your safe bet. You also have to expect getting Wastelanded twice, conservatively.

-Matt


Awesome, thanks man.

[sdematt]

No worries.

You should be able to also do it like this: (%)(CMC) + (%)(CMC) + (%) (CMC).

As in the above example, (.22)(2) + (.14)(3) + (.66)(1)=1.48 is the AVG CMC.

Math to the rescue! :D

The first way is probably a bit faster, though.

-Matt

[ZZZ]

You guys might want to check out this website:
http://deckstats.net/

You can enter a decklist and it will give you the average cmc. It also gives you a comparison of how your mana requirements and your mana sources are divided. I find it a handy tool and use it quite often on new decklists.

Anyway, after playing TES the last couple of months, I decided it was time to pick up The Rock again. I made a list which isn't very innovative but it seems to do fairly well in my current meta:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Qasali Pridemage

4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Pernicious Deed


side
4 Engineered Plague
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds

The Needle and Crucible are in my side as an attempt to improve the Landstill match-up which is pretty rough. I must say that I've been liking both a lot even outside of the Landstill match-up. Crucible comes in handy against decks that try to screw with your mana development (like New Horizons); Pithing Needle obviously comes in against anything with Survival, Planeswalkers,... (the usual suspects) but I've also been boarding it against Merfolk and I like it a lot. I don't often tutor for it in that match-up but I'm never unhappy to draw it. Shutting down an early vial often allows me to keep up with them and cutting them off of Mutavault can punish creature light hands.

I'm pretty happy with the deck; there are 2 spots in the main and 4 in the side which I'm a bit in doubt about. In the main I'm not sure if I need 4 Pridemages as I already have 4 Vindicate. If I take out 2, the slots would be filled with either 2 Path to Exile or 2 Kitchen Finks.
In the side I'm not really sure about the 4 E-Plagues. I've always been a fan of them as getting down 2 often means GG against Merfolk and Goblins (especially combined with the amount of spot removal The Rock plays) and as a 4-off with E-tutor it's not very hard to get 2 on the board (and I've always felt OK devoting 4 slots to those 2 matchups as I have to play them quite often) but with this build the matchup already seems quite good and I've been wondering if I could put those slots to better use. Any suggestions would be more than welcome.
If I cut the Plagues completely, I'd probably play 2 PtE side and 1 Runed Halo (I would like an extra slot against combo and Halo can be randomly usefull against a lot of stuff like Progenitus for instance) and 1 free slot.

[brianw712]

I play one O-Ring in the side (tutorable) to bring in against SnT/Emrakul. Unfortunately it's sorcery speed, so it doesn't work against Sneak Attack, Shelldock Isle, or Mosswort Bidge, but I guess that's what Pithing Needle's for, right? Also, you can bring O-Ring in against a lot of matchups, like Landstill, Stax, Enchantress, Zoo...

[sdematt]

That list looks pretty solid. Personally for me, I'd cut 2 Pridemages and go with 2 Kitchen Finks, just for Blockers/Lifegain.

But if you used deckcheck, you wouldn't get to use fun Math, would you? :P

-Matt

[Plague Sliver]

Matt, will this be your deck of choice for the upcoming Duals tournament?

Is Kitchen Finks really that good? (vs. Pridemage)

[Magicsk8ngenius]

You're right 2 pridemage is too much when you're running vindicates. 2 seems like a good number. I'll agree that finks fills this spot best, it is awesome against the aggro meta you seem to be playing in as it helps recoup the life loss from bob and thoughtseize while giving you a chump blocker and sometimes a guy that trades and comes back for more. You've got edicts for emrakul. If that's your problem, fit a karakas in the main, probably in place of a dual as it is tutorable via knight. It seems like you need more combo hate. Runed halo is your best option here since you're playing E tutor and don't have the sb room for leylines. I'm not a fan of the path to exile... ghastly demise has always been my favorite second to swords, i'd consider that at least.

[JimmyC27]

Yo,

I'm gonna run a rock build at a local Legacy tournament this week. It's nothing big, just four rounds I think. Was hoping I could get some last minute feedback on my list before I take it to battle (wow, what a nerdy sentence). I've been tweaking it since my last post. No idea what the meta will be, I expect 20 random decks.


Lands: I backboned the land off black to make it easier to cast some of the BB options. So far, I've been pretty pleased with the consistency.

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
4x Scrubland
3x Bayou
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas


Creatures: I've been using Doran to speed up the clock. I read a few pages back that several people are anti-Doran. What are the reasons to be anti-Doran? I also selected my creatures that were enhanced by Doran (Nighthawk, Goyf, Descendent). The WW/BB costs on Nighthawk and Descendant haven't been a problem, with the 8 fetch and 4 Scrublands.

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Vampire Nighthawk (life gain, flier)
3x Doran
2x Descendant of Kiyomaro (goes well with Doran, the discard effects, and helps off-set bob in a 3cc heavy deck)


Other: It might be too removal heavy, but if Rock's an "answers to everything" deck I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing.

4x Swords to Plowshare
4x Vindicate
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Engineered Explosives

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach

3x Sensei's Diving Top


Sideboard: Easily where I need the most suggestion work! I was considering Krosan Grips, but I have a lot of removal in the deck already. Not sure the O-Rings are the best option. I also tried to set it up with a E. Tutor package, so I could run more options since I have no idea what the meta will be like.

2x Enlightened Tutor
3x Engineered Plague
2x Pithing Needle
2x Relic of Progenitus (I hate you dredge/graveyard decks.)
1x Crucible of Worlds (mainly to protect against wasteland)
2x Oblivion Ring (yargh? Could be Chalice if I need more help against combo? or more discard?)
3x Diabolic Edict


Thanks again.

-Jimmy

[brianw712]

Woah, I think that manabase needs some work. You're only playing 19 mana-producing lands in a deck that plays 17 three-drops (counting EE here). That's about how many lands Canadian Thresh plays, and they play a full set of Brainstorms, a full set of Ponders, Fire/Ice to cantrip into lands, and only two three-drops. A single Wasteland, Port, or Stifle could set you back drastically.

I think all the Doran-hate is due to Knight of the Reliquary, who I think most prefer over Doran. Doran has the problem of being legendary, and being fixed at 5/5. He might be better in this deck due to pumping Nighthawk, Goyf, and Descendant (as well as shrinking the occasional Vendilion Clique), but Knight helps you find those one-of Maze of Ith and Karakas that you're playing. If you're not going to play Knight, the first thing I would do is replace the Maze and Karakas with duals, fetches, or basics, since you have no way to search for them.

I think you're right in not playing Grip in the board, since you already have 8 Grip-esque effects mainboard. If you are going to play Edicts, then I don't think you need the O-Rings, since you already play Vindicate, Pulse, and EE, and the main reason to play O-Ring is to tutor up for Emrakul. Also, I've always been a big fan of Gaddock Teeg, boarding it in against a lot of decks:

Merfolk (Force of Will, Submerge)
New Horizons (Force of Will, Submerge, Engineered Explosives)
Landstill (Planeswalkers, Wrath, Humility, Moat, EE, Fact or Fiction, FoW)
Dredge (Dread Return, Breakthrough)
Stax (Smokestack, Armageddon, Moat, Humility, Elspeth, Chalice, EE)
Combo (Tendrils, Ad Nauseam, IGG)

and more. I don't know how you could make room for it though.

Also, I advise replacing one Relic with a Wheel of Sun and Moon, which is an absolute beating for Lands and Dredge.

[AggroSteve]

could someone please tell me why oblivion ring works against emrakul, i thought he had protection from colored spells, or something

so i do not understand why O-ring should be of help against him, maybe i just cannot see it or i am too dumb but really i do not get it

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I thought the same, but we're wrong. Shriekmaw works too. It's because their removal is an effect, not the spell itself. And Emrakul is only protected from spells.

[brianw712]

Yea, the part of O-Ring that actually targets Emrakul is a triggered ability. When O-Ring targets Emrakul, it is already in play; it is no longer on the stack, and is no longer a spell.

[JimmyC27]

I like the logic. I haven't had trouble with manascrew [yet]. But it makes sense to protect against stifle/wasteland, instead of keeping a couple 1 of's. Here's the updated land set up and sideboard:

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
4x Bayou
4x Scrubland
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Forest


SB:

3x E. Plague
3x Gaddock Teeg
2x E. Tutor
2x Pithing Needle
2x O. Ring
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon


I left the creatures and spells untouched. Lemme know if you have any other thoughts; I always appreciate the feedback.

Cheers,

-Jimmy

[brianw712]

Oh, I forgot to mention this last time: Ethersworn Canonist would be a good addition to the sideboard, since it's a tutorable hoser for combo. It's also good against Enchantress and Vengevival. I would cut the Crucible for the Canonist, since most tempo-based decks that Waste your manabase won't let you get to three mana; if you do get to three mana and resolve Crucible around Daze, it's good against further Wastelands, but you don't play Horizon Canopy or Wasteland to fully abuse it like New Horizons does.

[JimmyC27]

What about Chalice of the Void as a SB option? Any luck with that?

[brianw712]

Chalice is a good sideboard card against combo and blue cantrip-reliant decks. If you want to put it in your board, just remember that it has to be good enough against whatever deck you bring it in against to justify shutting down Thoughtseize, Swords, and Top.

[JimmyC27]

How do you all solve the enchantress match up?

-Jimmy

[sdematt]

5 words: Back to Nature, Pernicious Deed. Grip if need be. Grave hate works too: hit their yard and they can't Replenish. Also, you have 4 Vindicate: kill things.

-Matt

[brianw712]

Qasali Pridemage, Needle on Sterling Grove, Aura Shards if you play lots of creatures, Engineered Explosives, Gaddock Teeg to stop Sigil of the Empty Throne/Replenish/Moat, Ethersworn Canonist. Hand disruption is pretty good against them too, but be wary of them siding in Leyline of Sanctity (which also stops most grave hate).

[kinda]

The e-tutor/elspeth/mother of runes/knight of the reliquary/1 md maze/tarmo+noble hierarch lists should have a dueling grounds in the board.

[JimmyC27]

Interesting, thanks. Also, I've been going back and forth on running 2x Engineered Explosives or 2x Pernicious Deed. In addition, I run 4x Swords, 4x Vindicate, and 2x Maelstrom Pulse. Thoughts on the EE v. Deed debate? Which card is preferred more for which meta?

Cheers,
-Jimmy

[sdematt]

In a control meta, run Deed. More aggro, run EE. Deed takes care of the Enchantress, Stax, Landstill, etc. builds, whereas EE is faster for aggro matchups.

-Matt

[JimmyC27]

Makes sense, thanks Matt.

[zalachan]

In the Enchantress matchup, the key is getting rid of their Sterling Grooves and Karmic Justices, other than that it's kinda easy, if you play around Replenish (as someone allready mentioned).

[brianw712]

Went to the Jupiter Games tournament in Vestal yesterday, placed 19th out of 79, just a little short of Top 16 and prizes.

My list:

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Treetop Village (I wanted this to be Karakas, but I couldn't get one before the tournament)
1 Wasteland

4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard:

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Sudden Spoiling
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Relic of Progenitus

Other than the Treetop Village, the rest of my list is how I wanted it. On to the report!

Round 1: Pro Bant

Game 1: I get really ahead with some combination of Noble Hierarchs, Dark Confidant, Knight of the Reliquary, and Mother of Runes on turn three while he just has Noble Hierarch. Unfortunately, he plays the Natural Order on turn three and follows up with Tarmogoyf, which I can almost race with Mother + Knight but can't quite get there.

Sideboarding: -2 Dark Confidant -2 Umezawa's Jitte -4 Mother of Runes +2 Engineered Explosives +2 Pithing Needle +2 Sudden Spoiling +2 Gaddock Teeg

Game 2: I fall behind pretty early with a board of something like Pridemage and Noble against his Top and Goyf. I find a Knight of the Reliquary, though, who searches up a Maze of Ith before he gets Pathed. He finds more Goyfs and Rhox War Monks. We're trading blows, me swinging with 4 with Qasali, and him swinging with 4 with Goyf (me Mazing the War Monk). I find a Gaddock Teeg, which I find out later made my opponent shuffle away several Natural Orders. Unfortunately, this same Gaddock Teeg strands an Elspeth in my hand. One turn, he taps out to under four mana during his precombat main phase to Top or something; I use this opportunity to chump block with my Teeg, since he can't play Natural Order post combat. I play Elspeth next turn, which resolves, and start swinging in the air. On the last crucial turn, I'm at five, he's swinging with two 4/5 Goyfs and a Monk. I Maze the Monk, block the Goyf with my own Goyf, and block the last Goyf with my Noble Hierarch. This turns out to be a crucial mistake, as I'm one exalted trigger short of swinging for the win in the air. Due to my miscounting, I lose this game and the match. However, if I did win this game, we were out of time anyway, so the best I could have hoped for was a draw.

0-1

Round 2: New Horizons

Game 1: Don't really remember, he probably just gets more Knights than me and finds Engineered Explosives to clear my board of 2-drops.

Sideboarding: -4 Qasali Pridemage, -2 Elspeth, -2 Mother of Runes, +2 Pithing Needle, +2 Sudden Spoiling, +1 Bojuka Bog, +1 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Gaddock Teeg

Game 2: Don't really remember this one either, he gets stuck on mana for a while as I pre-emptively Needled Misty Rainforest (I saw one in his hand through Sculler). When he's at four, I bait him into fetching with Windswept Heath with a Needle, putting him on three, and I swing in with a 3/3 Sculler (exalted) pro-Green (Mother) for the win.

Game 3: We start this game with like 5 minutes left on the clock. Neither of us could eek out the win in so little time, although I think I could have won this game if it went longer. We have to settle with a draw.

At this point I am shocked that both of my rounds have essentially gone to time. I thought only control-style decks would ever have this problem, and I am determined to play a little faster in the ensuing rounds.

0-1-1

Round 3: New Horizons (again)

Game 1: He mulls to five, and I just overwhelm him with guys.

Sideboarding: more or less same as in Round 2

Game 2: I mull to six, and we're pretty even in board position until he gets a Crucible-Wasteland lock going, and gets the EE to wipe out my Mothers.

Boarding: I board in some Explosives to deal with Crucible and the War Monks and Cliques he boarded in. Possibly took out the other two Mothers.

Game 3: He mulls to six, Teeg on my side (as well as my Needle on Karakas!) means he has to find a Swords and an EE to wipe out my board, which he doesn't find. I overwhelm him with guys.

1-1-1

Just need to win the next four to make Top 8! Not so hard, right?

Round 4: New Horizons (yes, again)

Game 1: He keeps a hand with Knight, Stifle, and some other lands including Wastelands. My swamp-->Thoughtseize start makes that hand look pretty bad. I play around Stifle, and he can't find enough guys to stop my offensive.

Sideboarding: Same as in Round 2

Game 2: He gets me into a really bad position, as I'm on five and he has three huge Knights against my one Knight and one Confidant. He attacks with all three Knights. I have two Sudden Spoilings in my hand, and am considering playing one for the blowout. I block with Knight and Confidant, and as I go to search my library for another black source, I find out I can just go get Bojuka Bog instead to let my Confidant die. I was even safe from Stifle, since he had tapped out his blue sources precombat to play Goyf or something. So I kill his two Knights with Bog, and his last one only does 2 to me. I get rid of his last Knight somehow (either due to Spoiling or StP) and find Relic of Progenitus. Unfortunately, I know he has Condemn in hand, so I can't attack with Knight. I attack with a 2/3 Noble Hierarch past his Goyf (because of Relic) for several turns, and eventually find the Thoughtseize to take the Condemn. Knight takes it from there.

2-1-1

Round 5: Burn

Game 1: Tidehollow Scullers and Umezawa's Jitte are pretty good against burn, I hear.

Sideboarding: -4 Thoughtseize -2 Dark Confidant -1 Elspeth +2 Enlightened Tutor +2 Engineered Explosives +2 Gaddock Teeg +1 Ethersworn Canonist

Game 2: He does some sketchy stuff while shuffling my deck after I fetch. He accidentally drops some cards onto the table while shuffling, which happen to be Umezawa's Jitte and forest. He puts those cards on the bottom and stops shuffling. Pssh, OK, put my Jitte on the bottom, whatever. I tutor up Jitte anyway and beat him.

3-1-1

At this point I'm pretty nervous, since it basically comes down to these last two rounds.

Round 6: Dark Depths

Game 1: I Thoughtseize to see that he's playing Dark Depths, which instantly makes me happy since I believe it to be not a great deck and an easy matchup for me. I play out a Knight on turn 3 or 4, and on his turn 5 he goes for the Hexmage-Depths combo. I forget that I can tutor up Wasteland with Knight and Waste the Depths in response to Hexmage's ability, and this costs me the game. I have to settle with tutoring up Maze instead, which holds him off for a while. I play Mother of Runes, threatening lethal (I have huge Knights and Marit Lage is black), so he has one turn to find an answer to Maze. He draws into Wasteland and wins. Oh, if only I had Karakas...

Sideboarding: -4 Mother of Runes -2 Umezawa's Jitte -1 Elspeth +2 Sudden Spoiling +2 Pithing Needle +1 Oblivion Ring +2 Engineered Explosives

Game 2: I keep a hand that includes Goyf and Swords, but not much else. I turn one Noble. He Thoughtseizes me, taking Goyf. Like a champ, I draw Knight and play it, and then next turn Elspeth. Meanwhile, he's played Counterbalance. He kills my Knight and Noble with Perish, I tutor up Wasteland in response. Next turn I play another Knight, having to tap my Wasteland to do so. He goes Hexmage-Depths next turn, and sets up his library with Ponder. I know he probably put a 1 on top for the Swords he knows I have, so I tap my Bayou and my White source to play Pridemage, reasoning I can blow up Counterbalance, use Knight to search up Maze, then swords the token next turn. He stifles the Knight's ability to my amazement, and the token swings in for lethal.

I am disappointed after this match, since I lost what I feel to be a good matchup and have no shot at prizes now. I still want to win the next round to maintain a positive record though.

3-2-1

Round 7: Lands

Game 1: I take his Loam with Sculler, and he goes for Mishra's Factory beatdown. I have the double Swords, leaving him with one Factory. Meanwhile, I've played Pridemage and Jitte. He goes to five before Intuitioning for Loam, Maze, Maze. I give him the Maze. I have one turn to draw something relevant before he locks me out with double Maze/Loam shenanigans. I draw Elspeth, give Sculler +3/+3, give Pridemage +4/+4 with Jitte, and swing for lethal.

Sideboarding: -4 Mother of Runes -2 Elspeth +1 Wheel of Sun and Moon +2 Enlightened Tutor

Game 2: I draw my seven that includes a fetch and Wheel of Sun and Moon, I consider keeping it since I have two draw steps to find a land to drop Wheel, but I figure it's too risky and mull. Top card was Horizon Canopy, oh well. I keep a six with two nonbasics. He goes insane with Loam and Wasteland, and I've essentially stopped playing on turn 3. I let him keep going though since I get to see 3 more cards of his deck every time he dredges, and find out he boarded in Crucibles and Smokestacks against me.

Game 3: He mulls to five and I keep a seven with Wasteland and Bojuka Bog as my only lands, but with a Relic. I go turn one Relic, turn two Bog, turn three Confidant. I Thoughtseize him, seeing Intuition and Smokestack (and no blue sources) and I take the Intuition, reasoning that he can't reasonably Smokestack me out. I'm playing like two creatures a turn due to Confidant, meanwhile he's gotten 2 Maze of Iths and is ramping Smokestack. The problem with ramping Smokestack is that I have more permanents than him. I attack him down to three before I'm forced to sacrifice all my permanents; he is forced to sacrifice all his permanents as well. The difference is I have a full hand of seven, while he has a one-card hand. I have saved a land and a Hierarch in my hand, which beats down for the last three points of damage.

4-2-1

Overall, I am very confident of the deck's power, but I think I need to practice more since I punted two games and had two of my rounds go to time. It's a hard deck to play; you have to remember what targets you have to get with Knight, Mother of Runes makes combat math and racing hard to figure out, and you have to play around mass removal like Perish/Firespout/EE. The only thing I would change is -1 Treetop +1 Karakas, but I already knew that. Treetop did nothing all day, while Karakas would have probably won me round 6. MVP was Knight of the Reliquary, which is just an insane card. MVP of the board was Sudden Spoiling, which I boarded in 5 out of 7 rounds and caused random blowouts in combat (unfortunately I didn't draw it in the round with Dark Depths, that card would have been sick there). Overall a very good day, and the deck is definitely something I would play again in the future.

[jedi_gof]

played the Brad Nelson GP: Columbus list yesterday and was very pleased with it.
SB was a bit different, but felt right for the small tourney (16 players)
We played 5 rounds top 4, and went 3-1-1 into top 4 where i beat goblins heavily in the semi and split the final.

Only thing i would consider changing MB was the 3rd mox d, otherwise it is solid.

[LegacyDan]

Has there been a decent version using Stoneforge Mystic in it? I have been trying to find something new to play for a while now and I figured this deck runs up my playstyle so I might as well start asking some questions, ya'know?

[dar482]

played the Brad Nelson GP: Columbus list yesterday and was very pleased with it.
SB was a bit different, but felt right for the small tourney (16 players)
We played 5 rounds top 4, and went 3-1-1 into top 4 where i beat goblins heavily in the semi and split the final.

Only thing i would consider changing MB was the 3rd mox d, otherwise it is solid.

The Nelson list is pretty darn tight. He did say that he wanted something like a Treetop Village though. Makes sense since you grind opponents out and just need Knight to search up something sometimes. I'm thinking about cutting a Vindicate for it. Vindicate is a bit slow and having three of a solve all seems fine.
Also, I want to cut a Bayou for a Forest. Getting your green Wastelanded and stranded of Knights and Goys is bad news against Merfolk/Goblins.

[stiltner88]

Can Runed Halo reserve a 1of spot in the S/b? I've been testing it with enlightened tutor in the side. Naming goyf, knight of the Reliqary, or tombstalker has been great. But does it reserve a 1of slot in the board?

[sdematt]

I think it really depends on your meta, and how much you lean towards Enlightened tutor in your build. In most cases where it would be most useful would be against combo, usually naming Tendrils (naming Emrakul has no purpose, they'll just make you sac all your permanents, then get there).

Personally, I'm not running a tutor board so I won't use it, but if you are, it may be a decent addition.

-Matt

[_erbs_]

Hi guys,
I've been playtesting this deck for several weeks now and its somewhat okay, maybe you guys have any comments or suggestions on how i could improve it more.

Thanks

Lands [21]
4 verdant catacombs
2 wooded foothills
4 bayou
2 taiga
3 forest
2 swamp
1 mountain
3 wasteland

Creatures [19]
3 sakura tribe elder
4 wall of blossom
4 tarmogoyf
3 eternal witness
4 kitchen finks
1 progenitus

Spells [21]
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 cabal therapy
3 thoughtseize
4 smother
3 maelstrom pulse
3 firespout
3 natural order

SB [15]
2 duress
3 red elemental blast
2 pernicious deed
4 extirpate
1 tormod's crypt
1 ravenous trap
1 maelstrom pulse
1 krosan grip

[ZZZ]

Since your plan seems to be developing your mana while holding off an early rush with STE and Wall of Blossom until you wipe the board with Firespout and/or resolve Natural Order, I don't get why you run Inquisition of Kozilek. You want your discard to be able to hit FoW so that your Spout or NO can resolve. I'd just run 4 Thoughtseize and 3 Duress in your deck.
I'm not sure if the red splash is really worth it in this deck; Deed can do the job as well and allows you to stay in 2 colours.

If I were to splash red for Spout, I'd make it a more controllish build with Elspeth, Ajani Vengeant and less reliance on critters.

[_erbs_]

Since your plan seems to be developing your mana while holding off an early rush with STE and Wall of Blossom until you wipe the board with Firespout and/or resolve Natural Order, I don't get why you run Inquisition of Kozilek. You want your discard to be able to hit FoW so that your Spout or NO can resolve. I'd just run 4 Thoughtseize and 3 Duress in your deck.
I'm not sure if the red splash is really worth it in this deck; Deed can do the job as well and allows you to stay in 2 colours.

If I were to splash red for Spout, I'd make it a more controllish build with Elspeth, Ajani Vengeant and less reliance on critters.

Hello

Discards
Inquisition of Kozilek hits 80% of cards being used in legacy. Thoughtseize is nice but the minus life is ouch especially against zoo decks, while duress is almost a deadcard against aggro decks. cabal therapy doubles as a hymn effect and an out for progen if you drew it.

Sweepers
Yeah deed is almost identical to firespout but firespout is much quicker to cast as it only needs 3 mana while deed needs 5-6 mana for it to resolve and activate it. Casting deed without mana for its activation will most like be killed off by your opponents pridemages which is very very common in the current meta.

WR Splash
Are you suggesting that i go BWR ? If so do you have a build in mind ?

Thanks

[ZZZ]

I understand Inquisition hits most cards in our format but the fact that it doesn't hit FoW seems contraproductive with your goal of winning through a resolved Natural Order.
The life-loss of Thoughtseize will hardly be of relevance especially since you do not run Bob. A lot of Rock decks run both cards as a 4-off without any problems.

As for the splash, I never played NO-Prog in the Rock (don't really like it in this deck) so I wouldn't know whether a red splash is better or worse than a (normal) BGw build. What I meant is that I could see a red splash in a build with a lot of sweepers, Planeswalkers and less reliance on creatures. I know people tried this in the past and I'm sure there are some threads floating around this forum somewhere. But that's a completely different deck from yours.

[_erbs_]

I understand Inquisition hits most cards in our format but the fact that it doesn't hit FoW seems contraproductive with your goal of winning through a resolved Natural Order.
The life-loss of Thoughtseize will hardly be of relevance especially since you do not run Bob. A lot of Rock decks run both cards as a 4-off without any problems.

As for the splash, I never played NO-Prog in the Rock (don't really like it in this deck) so I wouldn't know whether a red splash is better or worse than a (normal) BGw build. What I meant is that I could see a red splash in a build with a lot of sweepers, Planeswalkers and less reliance on creatures. I know people tried this in the past and I'm sure there are some threads floating around this forum somewhere. But that's a completely different deck from yours.

The issue between Inquisition and Thoughtsieze i guess is up for debate but if your meta has tons of zoo, i would pick inquisition over thoughtseize.

The reason behind i play NO-Prog in the deck was to solve its problem in having a significant clock. Before the nat-progen combo i used 2 obstinate and 1 ravenous baloth with 2 grim discoveries and 2 deed pre firespout. It solved the problem against burn and zoo decks but against blue decks with creature steal techs its almost an autoloss. Another problem that NO-Prog solved was its recovery after a sweep without a significant clock decks will most likely recover after a sweep or burn you down.

BGw rock has almost no sweeper expect for deed which needs 4-5-6 mana atleast with no some sort of accel the only hope of BGw to fend an early swarm is via spot removal or quickly get a jitte online. The fat creature its has and other creatures are there to finish the game via jitte. The red splash offers you a 3cc sweeper that could be very useful against early swarm but the problem with it is that your threat base becomes weak because the deck needs to be in a control shell to ramp up mana for its sweeper and removals, etc. thus other control decks will eventually gain board position thats why i played the NO-Progen to give it a significant clock.

[JimmyC27]

Has anyone been using Extirpate on your sideboard? Would you mind sharing your results with it?

Cheers,

-Jimmy

[_erbs_]

Has anyone been using Extirpate on your sideboard? Would you mind sharing your results with it?

Cheers,

-Jimmy

I use 4 in my sb and its okay, you just have to know when to use it and what to remove.

[ZZZ]

I think that with the Vengevival decks gaining popularity (at least in my meta) Extirpate is our best choice when it comes to graveyard hate. Crypt/Relic can be played around by that deck or hit by Stifle while Extirpate is really good against them.


The issue between Inquisition and Thoughtsieze i guess is up for debate but if your meta has tons of zoo, i would pick inquisition over thoughtseize.

The reason behind i play NO-Prog in the deck was to solve its problem in having a significant clock. Before the nat-progen combo i used 2 obstinate and 1 ravenous baloth with 2 grim discoveries and 2 deed pre firespout. It solved the problem against burn and zoo decks but against blue decks with creature steal techs its almost an autoloss. Another problem that NO-Prog solved was its recovery after a sweep without a significant clock decks will most likely recover after a sweep or burn you down.

BGw rock has almost no sweeper expect for deed which needs 4-5-6 mana atleast with no some sort of accel the only hope of BGw to fend an early swarm is via spot removal or quickly get a jitte online. The fat creature its has and other creatures are there to finish the game via jitte. The red splash offers you a 3cc sweeper that could be very useful against early swarm but the problem with it is that your threat base becomes weak because the deck needs to be in a control shell to ramp up mana for its sweeper and removals, etc. thus other control decks will eventually gain board position thats why i played the NO-Progen to give it a significant clock.

You seem to be talking about a very specific list of BGw Rock while this is one deck that you really can't pin a standard decklist on as there are so many different approaches one might take when building GBw Rock (even ending up with different archetypes; I've seen aggro, midrange and control rock lists).
For example; something like this should do alright against early rushes of aggro decks even without a sweeper:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36829

While this one uses a different approach; letting aggro overextend to then blow the board and put down a 4-turn clock:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36901

What I mean is, there are so many different directions you can take with this deck, you should try to find what works best for you, your playstyle and your meta. I don't understand though how you can lack a significant clock in this deck; you have access to Goyf, KotR, Tombstalker and Elspeth (which can turn even Bob into a 4 turn clock) to name the most obvious ones.
I never felt the need to put NO-Prog into the Rock, I fail to see which matchups it improves especially in the current meta when each deck seems to be prepared to handle a Prog/Emrakul or plays it itself.

[AggroSteve]

ZZZ just pointed out, what is essential for building a rock deck, use your own approach and adapt to your meta

i myself am just toying around with a Astral Slide Rock list, but it is still in developement, other people build a entomb rock, Brad Nelson, build a Rock which is heavy on discard and uses in total 8 big beater to finish the crippled opponent after stealing away his hand, some other list do not use discard at all........

Partly for this, the Rock is an awesome and fun deck to play, because the opponent can never really know how your rock looks like

[AznSeal]

Hey

this is my current rock list. It sort of plays like jund but it as all the goodies of rock.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Blightning
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Bituminous Blast
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Great Sable Stag
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Duress

Bloodbraid elf is nasty. I know 4 manas is a lot to ask for, but if i can get a sakura to resolve, i can usually do a turn 3 BBE which is nasty because almost everything in this deck is a relevant cascade
Right now, my weakest link seems to be Bituminous Blast. Any suggestions?

[from Cairo]

Jund List

Right now, my weakest link seems to be Bituminous Blast. Any suggestions?

Eternal Witness and Cabal Therapy worked pretty well in a BBE based Jund Rock list I tested a long time ago. It's a couple more good cards to Cascade into, and they fit with the attrition/card advantage theme. I played Dark Confidant over Sakura-Tribe Elder. And didn't play Wasteland, because it almost always hurt more than it helped in a mana hungry midrange deck w/o Aether Vial. Goblins and Merfolk can get away with it while still progressing their board state with Vial or Lackey; this sort of build is really top heavy and I think it hurts more from the tempo loss of an early land drop than most decks.

The problem I found with this build/strategy is that while it could grind out amazing verus "fair" decks: agro and control, it got steamrolled by combo and didn't have much game against the "ooops I win" sort of plays, like Natural Order into Progenitus, or Loyal Retainers into Iona, etc. I was working on it when Zoo and Merfolk were on their initial rise just after Alara Block, but abandoned it when CBT moved to running Natural Order and Reanimator came onto the scene with Iona. I don't really have much else to offer, I just don't think Bloodbraid Elf stacks up against Natural Order and Show and Tell and what not, if your meta is mostly straight forward, no tricks, agro and control, then this sort of list can catch people off guard, but in a diverse meta I think it's a clunky deck.

[Dzra]

I'm new to this thread, so forgive me for not having read through it all yet. After seeing Brad Nelson's GP Columbus list I decided to work with it a bit.
Here for reference: http://www.channelfireball.com/decklists/grand-prix-columbus-top-8-legacy-decklists/

First off, I prefer a more stable manabase to a land toolbox. The basics are there for opposing Wastelock protection. More fetches for KotR/Terravores.

I replaced Pernicious Deed with EE because it plays better with Bob and comes online faster.

I got rid of Thought Seize and added two Gerrard's Verdict, partly to make more room and partly because against non-combo decks, one-for-one discard just seems underwhelming.

The last big change was replacing Tarmogoyfs with Terravore. Goyfs are great in that they are very efficient 2drops, however; they have no evasion and are the exact same size as the Goyfs across the table. A Terravore in a deck with 11 fetchlands and 8 (16 if you count discard) ways to get an opponent's land into the graveyard is guaranteed to be an obese trampling machine.

Land 24
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures 12
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Terravore

Other Spells 24
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

4 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard
4 Extirpate
3 Duress
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Krosan Grip
2 Crucible of Worlds

[sdematt]

So you've taken New Horizons, taken out Blue, and added black but removed Goyfs?

I approve.

[Dzra]

Basically. ;) I'm working on putting it together now so I'll have more news once I get some testing in.

[throst54]

The biggest problem I've always had with rock is having a solid beater that has evasion.
Abyssal Persecutor satiates that need.
He fits perfectly well into a shell that already runs symetrical sac outlets to abuse veteran explorer.
You run all the biggest undercosted beaters so you should be able to make use of the extra mana better, especially if you properly strip them beforehand.
You could easily run birds instead of explorer. And for more control, you could put in Eternal Witness. I've just come to feel witness is too slow in a heavy aggro oriented meta.
I've done virtually no testing with this, but its definately time that Abyssal persecutor is run in The Rock.

// Beatdown//
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Abyssal Persecutor

//Utility//
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Discard//
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

//Removal//
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed

// Lands//
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
5 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
5 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs

[Dzra]

I think StP and KotR are too good to overlook. Knight is good like Tarmogoyf is good. It's a relatively cheap creature that gets huge without you having to spend resources. On top of that it has great utility. And if you are going to abuse KotR, why not abuse Terravore while you're at it?

On a sidenote, I decided to drop the Gerrard's Verdict again for Thoughtseize.

[throst54]

you have plenty of cheap removal, and with explorer you can drop tombstalker and persecutor quickly, before KoR and Terravore even have a chance to get big.

[Sharpened]

As you said in your post with the list:

I've done virtually no testing with this

Your list takes out the draw engine of Dark Confidant. That alone should set off warning signals that perhaps you are headed in the wrong direction with the way your taking the deck.

[throst54]

Its had no testing with the abyssal persecutor, but i've been playing the deck without it for quite some time.
I dont generally play Dark Confidant in Rock, SDT's filtering is good enough, and when you're already playing Innocent Blood and Deed, you want to be playing aggresive creatures. Theres enough discard you will hopefully have card advantage/quality without Confidant.

[Dzra]

I really don't like Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker together. Those two cards have really bad synergy, especially when you look at the alternative being some combination of Goyfs, Knights of the Reliquary, and Terravores.

I imagine the reason you don't like Dark Confidant is because of Tombstalker; it's just too risky. Persecutor has a pretty high cmc too. If you want to get some use out of Dark Confidant, you need low cmc, efficient creatures.

I'm not a big fan of Pernicious Deed over EE either. EE just gets the job done faster and more efficiently. Sometimes t4 Deed just doesn't cut it.

[sdematt]

They're totally different applications, however. In this deck, you can EE up to 3. Deed does a completely different job for a totally different cost: it wipes the board, EE wipes a CMC off the table. While killing all the 1 drops can be invaluable, so can killing all the Enchantments/Artifacts a player has on the table.

Personally, I prefer using Deed as I'm running a control build, but in an aggro heavy meta, in an aggro-oriented Rock build, I'd opt for EE at that point. Mind you, sometimes you just get plain ol' screwed over without it, but most of the time you get there fast enough, or you have other answers.

To sum it up, never compare EE and Deed directly, they are not the same :D

-Matt

[Dzra]

Yeah, that's a good point. My meta is fairly aggro heavy. Vindicate is good at handling the odd enchantment/artifact. Although if you are running Mox Diamonds in a BGW build you can definitely get up to 4 with EE.

Also, I think I'm really liking the idea of Volrath's Stronghold as a 1-of.

[AggroSteve]

@ sdmatt: i am interested in your list, since right now i am desperately in search of some inspiration for mine, would you share your list, and if possible some thoughts on the cardchoices

@Drza: i am lately thinking of discarding volrath's stronghold in my build, for 2 reasons in my control build, colorless mana too often screws with my play, and you i do not want to rely to much on it, it is nice to have it in some rare situtations maybe after a sweeper, but simply not overextending solves the problem better, and you do not lose time, because stronghold recursion is extremely slow

but at least try it, maybe it suits your playstyle more than mine

[sdematt]

Ugh, I posted my lists, then randomly got deleted. Damnit.

Doran Suicide:

4 Goyf
3 Doran
4 KoTR
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantucko Shade
4 Duress/Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords
1 Deed
1 Sylvan Library
3 Top

4 Byou
4 Scurbland
8 Fetches
4 Basics

The Rock

4 Goyf
2 Confidant
4 KoTR
4 Noble Heirarch
2 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks

2 Phyrexian Arena
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
2 Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
2 Top
4 Swords
3-4 Slots Open

1 Bojua Bog
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
7 Fetches
1 Volrath's Stronghold


I've taken the discard out of the controlling version, as it sucks to draw late, and unless you're playing ten pieces of discard, it never seems worth it. It doesn't stop combo dead in its tracks, or has it ever given me a blowout win. I'd prefer to have more control pieces, personally.

Let me know what you think..


-Matt

[Ando]

I like the second list a lot. I feel a singleton E. Tutor might be a cool adition. It's nice to see Arena being used in a deck, the thing is a house :D How has the singleton Library been working out?

Here's a Jund rock list I've been working on:


4 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Progenitus
4 Wall of Blossoms

2 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
3 Firespout
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Natural Order
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Terminate

3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Engineered Plague
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt


It's a pretty controlling version. Some things I was thinking about:
-I want to fit a 3rd Cabal Terapy in here some how (although they might become Thoughtseize/Inquizition). Therapy goes great Finks/Witness+Stronghold/lategame BoPs/Wall when the board is locked down. Also, a Therapy following a Duress is monsterous. But want to take out. Maybe switch the one in the board with a Firespout?
-Pernicious Deed is another thing I've been wanting to fit in. Maybe 2? I'm not really sure I need it, with Firespout, but it's just such a house and can get you out of some really tight spots.
-NO/Progenitus is pretty strong with discard to protect from counterspells/WoG&Perish effects
-No Goyfs is a matter of (not) having them. I'd find room, believe me.
-As with any list, what could this use? Very open to suggestions. I'd like to keep it control ordiented.

Thanks!

[sdematt]

Nice sig, Ando. I was at the tournament, and he did pretty well. It's even funnier when Adam (gorky) actually says Pew Pew Pew :cool:

I've been trying the singleton Library in the Suicide version to much success. It's a little redundant with Confidant and Top, but honestly, it's a house. You can dig 4 cards a turn with Confidant and Sylvan, and draw 2 of them (or more). Sometimes you also need those cards, and damn the life cost (ie. You need a Vindicate with a Jace at 13 Loyalty).

I wanted to suppress the curve of the second list, as it used to be VERY 3-drop heavy. The good thing? Traditional Counterbalance decks can't do anything against it. The problem? If they float 3 you're basically screwed. I replaced an Arena with the Library, and added only 2 Confidants.

Why 2 Confidants? I'm running an average CMC of almost 3, so hitting 3's all the time basically makes you die in a fire against aggro. 2 Confidants with 2 Tops gives you the extra card draw and manipulation you need in the mid to late game, and Confidant usually bites a Path/Sword/Removal instead of something else. But, if he stays online, you're usually pretty good as well. Too bad Sylvan doesn't trigger on upkeep, that'd be sweet.

@Ando's list:

I freaking love the fact you're running Jund colours. I love the colour combo, and has so much cool stuff going for it. I ask though, why Cabal Therapy? Is there any creature you want to sac? Ah, read your full post. I see. Personally, I like using Deed to wipe Eternal witness, then using Stronghold to bring it back for infi-Deed loops. They're magically delicious.

-3 Top is usually very good; I've opted for 2 and a Library since I seem to always draw multiples, but 3 I think is the right number.

-Have you thought about running Veteran Explorers with Cabal Therapy? Waust Survival runs it (it was a BoM in May, and T8'd I believe. It's a very cool 3 colour BGW list. I would definitely check it out) and it allows you to rock out a ton of Basics.

-Deck definitely needs Fleshbag Marauders, I think.

-Have you tried Survival of the Fittest? Changes the deck, I know, but seems so good.

Waust Survival

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
2 Sakura Tribe Elder
2 Veteran Explorer
2 Academy Rector
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Genesis
1 Squee, Goblin Naboob
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Schriekmaw
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Teraphy
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
6 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswepth Heat
1 Phyrexian Tower

SB:
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Orim Chant
1 Rule of Law
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Extirpate
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Krosan Grip
1 Choke



-Seems like this deck could use Bloodbraid Elf, maybe no though.

-Given any thought to Flametongue Kavu? It's controllish, and he PEW PEWs a creature.

-I agree with Firespout, but you have to make sure you don't pay for it with Green, otherwise you'll hit all your Birdies (unles you play Veteran Explorers/Sakura Tribe Elder)

-Only 20 lands? Seems slightly light. You're running a control build, and getting Wastelanded sucks. I'd consider running 1-2 more lands.

-Needs Goyf. They're only $40 now, such a steal! *sarcasm*

Hopefully you could pick pieces out of the ramblings. But, let me see if this list would work:

F$#% you Tribal:

2 Veteran Explorer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
2 Noble Hierarch (Exalted is too good to turn down, trust me)
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Shriekmaw
3 BloodBraid Elf
4 Wall of Blossoms

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Firespout
3 Terminate
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Maelstrom Pulse
+3/4 Slots

Appropriate land/manabase of ~20-22

Just kind of threw it together. Just to give you some ideas. I can see fizzling with BBE on a Firespout, but you have Top, so I figure you should be fine.

-Matt

[Ando]

Haha that's awesome, I might have to try that out next time I play combo... :D


I'll definitely try the whole Sylvan Library thing and see how it goes. And I agree about it needing Marauder (or Shriekmaw) as well as a couple more lands

I'm surprised I didn't go back to Veteran Explorer once I put the Cabal Therapies in. I'm going to have to try those out. Work better with Deed anyway.

Survival is awesome, but I think that might not be exactly what I was looking for. Genesis makes it tempting though.

I really like the idea of Flametounge Kavu. Not sure where I couple fit him in but it's something I'll look into.

I'm ehh on BBE. I might test it but it doesn't seem like it's worth the 4 mana in this deck.

[Dzra]

@Drza: i am lately thinking of discarding volrath's stronghold in my build, for 2 reasons in my control build, colorless mana too often screws with my play, and you i do not want to rely to much on it, it is nice to have it in some rare situtations maybe after a sweeper, but simply not overextending solves the problem better, and you do not lose time, because stronghold recursion is extremely slow

but at least try it, maybe it suits your playstyle more than mine

I didn't see your list, but I'm also running 24 land to support 4 Mox Diamonds, so I can pretty easily afford to have a little extra colorless mana.

[AggroSteve]

@ Drza: just searched your list, and yes actually you can effort the extra colorless mana, and i like your list a lot, the only thing i do not like that much is the same thing i do not like about the list Brad Nelson played, you have no way to reuse the lands you drop for mox

i myself will try mox now as well, but i will play loam as a 2-of

i will post a list as soon as i am finished tinkering around with my list, and i hope you guys will help me with developing, and of course the listi will post here, will merely have gone through any testing^^, so please help

[Dzra]

I would suggest you give it a shot. Even with no land recursion maindeck, I have had very few problems hitting three mana and any land after the 2nd or 3rd simply becomes KotR fodder for fetching Wastelands anyways. The only trouble I had was one game where I kept a questionable hand and got my Mox Shattering Spree'd followed by a Magus of the Moon.

[AggroSteve]

i could never run 4 mox and only 24 lands without land recursion, i am playing staxx as well and even there sometimes i get manaproblems because of opponent wasting a tomb or city, and in the staxx list i am playing 26 lands, so i just cannot see 24 + 4 mox be all right without a tiny bit of land recursion, besides the land recursion offers the option of a wastelock

i will try it though

in the meantime the two lists i thought of

the more aggro version:

2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Life from the Loam
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Raven's Crime
3 Vindicate

deed may seem odd to you, but i simply love it, and i cannot see EE replace it in my lists simply because in my eyes (and playstyle as well) deed is way better, even with the antisynergy with mox and creatures, but i have stronghold and nantuko monastery, so this should not be a problem

and the more controllish list (if played with mox diamonds the quasali pridemages would be replaced and vice versa), i have cut all the discard as well because, i had the same feeling as sdmatt, that its only good early in the game, allthought i sometimes miss the discard against control


1x stronghold
1x karakas
1x bojuka bog
1x maze of ith
3x wasteland
1x horizon canopy
8x fetchs
2x bayou/overgrown tomb
1x scrubland/godless shrine
1x savannah/temple garden
3x basic
4x mox diamond / quasali pridemage

4x confidant
4x tarmogoyf
3x knight of the reliquary
4x kitchen finks

4x swords to plowshares
2x ghastly demise
2x life from the loam
3x vindicate
2x deed
2x elspeth
3x divining top

please give me every thought you have on both lists

the manabase in the more aggro list could be changed a bit, but i feel very comfortable with maze, karakas, and stronghold

[Erdvermampfa]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
5 [US] Swamp (2)
4 [OD] Forest (3)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [A] Bayou
2 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [U] Birds of Paradise
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FNM] Smother
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FNM] Duress
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [AP] Pernicious Deed

cardchoices gonna follow, but dont hesitate to comment ;)

e/: this list is supposed to improve the control matchup ( muc, landstill, countertop ). Those 8 discardspells also provide u an opportunity to handle those I-Win buttons like SnT, NO etc. Of course Cabal therapy needs to be built around some cards, so assumed i got 14 "creatures" which suit in this "therapy-Sac-theme" ( 4 Kitchen Finks, 4 Birds, 4 Dark Confidant, 2 Bitterblossom ) Tombstalker and Goyf should get the job finished.

Still im curious about ur opinion about my manabase. Do u think that 21 are enough?
Im looking forward to ur comments!

[sdematt]

21-22 Land should be enough if you also have 4 Birds. I disagree with Tombstalker here, I think. Have you given Knight of the Reliquary a try? He/She's pretty good. Looks good except you're not running Vindicate, probably due to the fact of no white. Nevermind :P

Otherwise, looks solid. I'll give this a test in the coming weeks, perhaps.

-Matt

[Mizeri]

Maybe one less finks for a Volrath's stronghold? Could also try life from the loam in place of bitterblossom and drop a fetch a swamp and a forest for 3 wastelands? Waste lock is still decent, might mess your colors up tho. At least you could mulligan like everyone else then. :P I like the discard, might be able to make the thoughtseizes 3 hymns and add another pulse too. Just some thoughts.. Might be bad ones, don't give in to peer pressure! I've grown used to blind therapys. Blue land means Fow, green land is usually goyf. That about covers the format..

[Dzra]

Right now I'm only running land recursion in my SB (against decks that also try to wastelock/land disrupt). I'm used to using Crucible of Worlds, what do you think the advantages/disadvantages of Life from the Loam would be?

[Mizeri]

Loam is actually synergistic with stronghold, it gives you more cards to see. Also helps clear the crap off a top you don't want to see. Its a recurring thing, if they counter it, its not the end of the world. Unlike crucible. You don't advertise that land hate doesn't work either. If you drop a crucible they probably won't keep trying to waste lock you. Loam also isn't anti deed. You can just keep deeding without losing your engine. I've always like some amount of witnesses too. Makes the volraths a repeatable pulse engine. My only valid reason other than personal preference is just that it works better with deed. Maybe I missed something, anyone else?

-Miz

[itomarhernandez]

Hi everyone,

I don't post much at all, but I try to follow the boards and always get alot of useful info from here. Thanks!

I played in a small legacy event at the TCK 5K in NY, only 8 people signed in to play, but I won't complain. I took first for a set of foil Darksteel and foil Fifth Dawn which I traded into a dealer for 2 mana drains.

Here's the list I ran (except for minor revisions, credit goes to ZZZ in this forum)

4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Kitchen Finks

4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Pernicious Deed

side
4 Engineered Plague
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds

First round I play against Merfolk, won 2-0
second round, played against 3 (or 4-color) CounterTop, 2-0
final round, beat UG Madness, 2-0 although I tried to punt game two with a missed Confidant trigger with the win on the board. Luckily, the head judge let me resolve the missed draw since I hadn't drawn for the turn.

I love this deck!

[Dzra]

I'll have to play with Loam and just try it out I suppose. The fact that it can be brought back after being countered is definitely a strong point in its favor. It can't be Shattering Spree'd either... For the people who use Crucible, why do you pick that over Life from the Loam? My main reason, to be honest, is just that I used to play Stax and I have a playset already. ;p

Choke is another really nice card that I'd love to work into my SB, but I'm just not sure where. This is what I'm running now. Perhaps I could lose a Grip and something else for 2 Choke.

Sideboard
4 Extirpate
3 Duress
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Krosan Grip
2 Crucible of Worlds

[ZZZ]

@itomarhernandez: that looks like my deck (I think I posted it here a couple of pages back).
How was the UG Madness matchup? That deck is played a lot over here at the moment and it's the reason my sideboard now has 4 Extirpate but you seemed to have done fine without them.

[itomarhernandez]

@ZZZ
Well, game one, on the play, that turn 1 Thoughseize really set him back. Instead of relying on survival, he had to use Aquameba for an outlet. Being that slow, with enough removal in hand and Confidant to draw me cards was the difference.

Game two, he mulliganed to 6 and kept a less than optimal hand, so it was a grind. Eventually when he was able to chain, I had deed to kill all the one drops and sac a creature so that the flying team was reduced to 2 creatures and wasnt lethal.

My normal meta has both goblins and now UG in addition to other decks in the format. I really like the plagues and have found the board tight overall, not sure what I would cut to fit Extirpate. Did you cut the Plagues?

[sdematt]

I think if you're running Deed, go with Loam. Deed and Crucible are anti-synergistic. Landstill runs 2 Loam and 4 Deed, which is an exaggeration in a sense since we're not running 4 Deed, but the point stands. Landstill doesn't use Loam to Wastelock an opponent, it's about getting back your lands if they get Wastelanded, getting ahead if you don't draw mana, or in some cases, getting your Wastelands back. I've been running BUG Landstill for a couple months, and I'm liking the two Loam. Sometimes they're utter crap, but in both decks you're running a pile of nonbasics and fetches. Getting Wasteland back to blow up more lands is always hot.

I don't agree with running a bunch of Diabolic Edicts in the board if you really don't expect to see a ton of Emrakul combo. I tihnk we should be focusing on taking the Vengevival deck over the table: it's prevalent, and blue based, and it's something you'll have to more commonly face nowadays. I think if any of you are running Knight of the Reliquary, I'd say run Bojuka Bog main, and one in the board. It's a pain in the neck for them, and is also good against other decks (Loam, lands, etc.). I'd also suggest 4 Leyline of the Void. You can't be too careful (I also suggest Extirpate).

I run a board of:

4 Leyline
1 Bojuka Bog (not always, but sometimes)
2 Extirpate
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Choke

If you don't have a combo heavy meta, or a Zoo heavy Meta, I'd go with:

4 Leyline
1 Bog
1 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
3 Choke

Or something like that, depending on your build and whatnot. Have many people tested the Vengevine matchup? I haven't gotten much of a chance yet, so I don't know for sure. But, I'm pretty sure Extirpate, Bog, and Leyline will cause them to have a few headaches.

@Dzra:

I'm also a Stax player, and I love Crucible, but here, it's not as favourable as you'd think. Try Loam, and I'm sure you'll be pleased. If you were running Armageddon, Knight of the Reliquary, Exploration, Terravore, Wasteland, Crucible all in a deck (some sort of Terra-geddon build), I'd say Crucible AND Loam would be great :D

My two cents.

-MAtt

[ZZZ]

@ZZZ
My normal meta has both goblins and now UG in addition to other decks in the format. I really like the plagues and have found the board tight overall, not sure what I would cut to fit Extirpate. Did you cut the Plagues?

I haven't played or tested The Rock a lot lately (mostly screwing around with TES and some other decks) but I've been seeing a lot of Madness and Merfolk in my meta; also TES and Goblins are played quite a lot. If I was playing The Rock in a tournament tomorrow, I'd probably won't run the E-tutor sideboard but I'd go with something like this:
4 Extirpate
4 E-Plague
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 open slots (PtE, Choke, Loam, ...)

@Loam vs Crucible: the only time I would run Crucible over Loam, would be if I had E-tutor somewhere in my 75.
When I ran Crucible in my tutor board it was mainly for the Landstill matchup (which I believe to be really difficult); a recurring wasteland can definately tip that match in your favour but simply ensuring your land drops and have a recurring shuffle effect for your tops (with fetches) are very good as well.
It's obviously good against any deck that attacks the mana base but I don't see a lot of dedicated mana denial decks (New Horizons, Team America, etc) over here.

@sdematt: I agree that the Vengevival matchup deserves some consideration. I have tested the matchup with some other decks but not with the Rock; a couple of things I noted though: they can be very explosive but only if everything goes right, like itomarhernandez described in his match, a Thoughtseize can be quite devastating for them. The matchup is winnable if they have to play fair (i.e. no survival). If you know you're playing against them, I'd try to mull into a hand which either has discard, Pridemage or some spot removal + wasteland. They're not as mana hungry as most survival decks but Plowing an early Hierarch and wasting a Trop can still slow them down a lot.

I don't think Bojuka Bog will cut it in this matchup as its 'remove the yard' ability can only be played in your own turn. If they are explosive, they only need 1 turn to bring in 3 or 4 Vengevines making Bog useless (well it could remove a Wonder but we'll probably still be swarmed).
For this matchup I think Extirpate or Leyline or our best options to side in. I've never been the biggest fan of Leyline (I hate having to mull into it and I hate topdecking it) so I run Extripate.

[Mizeri]

He runs the bog only with knight? Makes an instant speed crypt? Maybe I can't read. Extirpate also fixes the problem. I like the double use of leyline. Helps dredge match up at the same time.

[Dzra]

Thanks. Based on your input and some testing, I think I'll give Loam a shot.

As far as Vengevival, I think that between MD Thoughtseize and SB Extirpate we should be fine. I run 4 Extirpate in the board for my GY hate and I don't miss Leylines. There is practically nothing they can do against Extirpate outside of accidentally catching you with your pants down using the lone Vendillion Clique some builds run.

I'm still trying to fit in some Choke too.

[ZZZ]

He runs the bog only with knight? Makes an instant speed crypt? Maybe I can't read. Extirpate also fixes the problem. I like the double use of leyline. Helps dredge match up at the same time.

You're right, bog + Knight is instant speed; completely forgot about that. Pretty slow but useful as a one-off probably.

[sdematt]

It doesn't hurt to have against Ichorid Game 1. I've used it before to help against decks I may not be as good against. Otherwise, it just drops and you get a land. Not a huge drawback; no worse than having to play cycling lands for mana.

-Matt

[Dzra]

Speaking of cipt lands, has anyone tried Sejiri Steppe? It'd be balls to draw it, but eating a StP with it sounds really nice.

[sdematt]

I have, I just don't think it's AS relevant as Bog can be. When you pull off a Steppe, you feel like a champ, but other than that, I haven't had too much success with it. But, give it a try for yourself. Your build may like it :D

-Matt

[Dzra]

Itomarhernandez, how did Elspeth work for you during the tourny? I've been thinking of trying her as a 1of lately.

[Halo_Lover]

What is everyone's thoughts on this?

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [A] Bayou
3 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Scrubland
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [PT] Forest (4)
1 [PT] Swamp (3)
2 [PT] Plains (3)

// Creatures
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower

// Spells
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [JGC] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

[Nidd]

-2 Doran
+2 Elspeth KE

Never been a fan of Doran, tbh. Elspeth is just gamebreaking as is.

[Dzra]

I don't like the whole equipment thing personally, but other than that it is fairly standard. Maybe look at your land a bit.

[brianw712]

Yea, I think running essentially 7 equipment is too many, especially since we don't play Brainstorm to shuffle extra copies away, and also because you don't run Noble Hierarch/Mox Diamond to offset the tempo loss of equipping a guy. I've run four in the past (2 Stoneforge and 2 Jitte) and still found it too awkward, and have since cut it down to just two Jitte.

[Dzra]

I think one stoneforge and one jitte would be fine, but I don't know that it's worth it. Our creatures are very efficient as they are.

[sdematt]

I've never been a fan of Stoneforge, but if you were, I'd say drop a few equipment because of the mana investment over two turns can be quite backbreaking.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

I recall a discussion a few months ago re: NOProg in the Rock. The main knock against it was that if we drew into Prog, we were essentially dead in the water. With KotR and Fauna Shaman, what are everyone's thoughts on including 1 Dryad Arbor (fetchable with KotR), 3 NO, 4 Fauna Shaman, and 1 Prog? Think of it as a "backup" win condition in the same vein as BantNOProg decks; able to smash face without NOProg, but can end the game as early as turn 3 (assuming turn 1 Hierarch) in some scenarios.

[Erdvermampfa]

I've always felt the "Stoneforge Mystic + equipment-package" being win more. seriously, u got the most efficient creatures (to hardcast) legacy offers you, so playing Stoneforge mystic + paying eqiup costs is just like wasting 2 turns actually...same at Natural Order Rock. Sure, it's impressive, but let's be honest, do u really think that multiple Knights and Goyfs can't get the job done? another point is that we dont run brainstorm, so if u draw progenitus, ull get 3-4 dead cards in ur library, imo not the way to go...

[myselves]

I've always felt the "Stoneforge Mystic + equipment-package" being win more. seriously, u got the most efficient creatures (to hardcast) legacy offers you, so playing Stoneforge mystic + paying eqiup costs is just like wasting 2 turns actually...
Stoneforge Mystic serves different points that all belong to a Rock deck, he generates CA in a certain way and can either work as a solution or as a threat.
Furthermore he could solve one of the biggest problems of this deck: often 2-3 spotremovals are enough to let you run out of gas, Mystic into SoLaS could avoid that more often than Discard.

I've started to test AggroRock with 2 of them, after testing and the first tourneys with him I would never go under 3, he just shines against Zoo, Bant, VG, Merfolk and under some circumstances against hardcontroldecks like nothing else does.

[Arsenal]

I've always felt the "Stoneforge Mystic + equipment-package" being win more. seriously, u got the most efficient creatures (to hardcast) legacy offers you, so playing Stoneforge mystic + paying eqiup costs is just like wasting 2 turns actually...same at Natural Order Rock. Sure, it's impressive, but let's be honest, do u really think that multiple Knights and Goyfs can't get the job done? another point is that we dont run brainstorm, so if u draw progenitus, ull get 3-4 dead cards in ur library, imo not the way to go...

Right, that was one of the knocks againt NOProg in Rock, but as I already said, between Sensei's Divining Top and Fauna Shaman filtering out a single copy of Prog, it seems likely you'll be able to get Prog from getting into your hand. Also, it's not like NO and Fauna Shaman are completely dead cards without Prog; NO a Hierarch into a Goyf is good. NO Herirach into a much needed Pridemage, etc. And Fauna Shaman can generate card quality in ways nothing else in the Rock can; ditching a not-needed Confidant so that you can setup a KotR, etc. seems good. Flexibility is the key in a deck that traditionally has had no good way to filter/tutor.

[sdematt]

I don't think wasting 4 slots for Fauna Shaman is worth it, but the NO-Progenitus plan seems alright, depending on the build. I wouldn't put it in as an afterthought, I'd rather build it like NO Rock.

But, I think it could be done.

-Matt

[Halo_Lover]

How about something on the lines of this:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [A] Bayou
3 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Scrubland
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [PT] Forest (4)
1 [PT] Swamp (3)
1 [PT] Plains (3)
2 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [JGC] Vindicate
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

[brianw712]

I recommend a single Maze of Ith in the main and a Bojuka Bog in the board. Knight grants you essentially four copies of each, which is just insane. I was also never a fan of Volrath's Stronghold; I used to play it, and found that I used it pretty much one game out of 50. I would rather have the extra colored mana; also, running two means running the risk of drawing both and having the legend rule screw you over.

[Arsenal]

For me, Qasili Pridemage needs to find a home in the maindeck. Too much tier 1 stuff plays artifacts/enchantments maindeck (Survival, equipment, Standstill, etc) for Pridemage to get excluded. Also, it's a decent beater by himself and forces your opponent into weird situations (find a removal spell before dropping the artifact/enchantment)

[Halo_Lover]

Something like this?

// Lands
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Eternal Witness
2 Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

[therorschach]

I like the deck, but I would recommend 4 thoughtseize and only 2 Eternal Witness. I think EE is better in the sideboard, but I dont have a recommendation for a replacement except Maelstrom Pulse. The one thing that bothers me is Iona on white stops Swords and Vindicate, so I tend to run 2 Maeltrom Pulse to balance it out. I would recommend squeezing that in if possible.

Good luck!

[sdematt]

I think running 2 pieces of equipment is just fine, but I'd say run Sword of Fire and Ice. Your main problems/main matchups you'll face are Merfolk/Zoo/Goblins, and this is very good against that. Light and Shadow is good if you don't have a large Tribal meta.

I personally don't think we need Qasali (unless you're also running a control package with Volrath's Stronghold) because of the amount of disruption we play already. I mean, it'll really depend on your build, but I'll use myself as an example. I'm running 2 Eternal Witness, 4 Vindicate, 2 Pulse and 2 Deed. If that isn't getting the job done, well, I better pick up another deck. But, if you're running light on disruption, especially if you aren't running Deed, then I think Qasali would be a useful addition.

-Matt

[Dzra]

The one thing that bothers me is Iona on white stops Swords and Vindicate, so I tend to run 2 Maeltrom Pulse to balance it out. I would recommend squeezing that in if possible.

I like 1 Karakas, it's a lot easier to get than 2 Pulses.

Also, I'm a bit torn on the Eternal Witness thing. On the one hand, running them gives you a little better card quality since you can fish in your graveyard for the removal of your choice... On the other, it's taking you two turns to cast the removal spell instead of only one (but that's also assuming you draw the spell you want in the first place).

Personally, I think I'd rather go with Bobs and Tops, but it isn't necessarily one or the other. I'd still love to hear more positives for running Eternal Witness.

[itomarhernandez]

Itomarhernandez, how did Elspeth work for you during the tourny? I've been thinking of trying her as a 1of lately.

Elspeth was useful in all my games to finish games quickly after I was able to gain control, but almost always I would side out one or both game two and three. Two still felt like the right number.

[myselves]

I think running 2 pieces of equipment is just fine, but I'd say run Sword of Fire and Ice. Your main problems/main matchups you'll face are Merfolk/Zoo/Goblins, and this is very good against that. Light and Shadow is good if you don't have a large Tribal meta.

Could you explain that? The carddraw shouldn't really matter due to the fact, that you have a bigger impact on the board than these decks (at least you have to if you don't want to lose the game).
Against Merfolk the 2 damage are just down the drain if they are able to bring in their lords like they normally do, against Sligh SoFaI is helpful against Bolt and Mancer, but not against PtE or Knight, also in a race -2 lp on his side and an additional card is usually worse than +3 life on your side and to stick at least a chumpblocker back in your hand.

So against Sligh I would stongly recommend the SoLaS, which is also a lot better against a lot of other decks. Against Merfolk there shouldn't be much of a difference between SoLaS or SoFaI.
So there's only the VG matchup left as a point for SoFaI and that shouldn't be enough to seriously suggest to play it imho.

[Dzra]

You are forgetting that Fire and Ice gives protection from Red and Blue also. Having your guy be unblockable, unboltable, and unbouncable is pretty nice. Light and Shadow does have its strong points too though and if you are intent on running a Mystic package there's no reason not to have one SoFI and one SoLS in your 75.

As for Elspeth, I'm hoping she would add a little faster clock and a little more reach. Did she seem like win-more or did she ever help turn a game around or perhaps just catch someone off guard? Sorry, I would just test myself but I'm out of the country for the next week and a half and I'm a bit magic starved. ;p

[myselves]

You are forgetting that Fire and Ice gives protection from Red and Blue also. Having your guy be unblockable, unboltable, and unbouncable is pretty nice. Light and Shadow does have its strong points too though and if you are intent on running a Mystic package there's no reason not to have one SoFI and one SoLS in your 75.

And you forget, that all three Swords also give +2/+2, so that every creature except Confidant is unboltable except your opponent draws multiple of them ;)
And a critter equipped with SoFaI is honestly not unblockable for Sligh.

[ZZZ]

@ NoProg or Mystic package in The Rock: I've never been a fan of both. To me The Rock is about card quality (which is why I start all of my lists with 4 Top). Every card we play is good on it's own. If your Jitte/Sword gets destroyed in response to an equip, you've probably spent 2 or 3 turns (play Mystic, play equipment, equip a guy) to play an unimpressive 1/2 body. We can't afford to lose these turns against most decks in the format.
I can see NoProg being played in an aggro Rock deck with Hierarchs and lots of discard but I don't think it is needed in most lists. We also don't have a way to force a Natural Order through (apart from discard hence my above sentence).

I have always been a big fan of Elspeth though (I already advocated her several times in this thread). She can turn games around all on her own. If your deck can support the double white (i.e. you're not already running cards requiring BB and GG (Hymn and Witness for instance)) I suggest to try her out. I've even run her as a 3-off and she never disappoints.

[AggroSteve]

i was now thinking of dropping witness, even if the card quality and recursion of our removal is very nice but it just feels wrong to me lately to spend 1GG for a 2/1 body and a removal spell that comes maybe a turn to late, so i will probably test how elspeth is doing, even though the lsit will then be quite standard (which i really do not like) but lets see how the performance will be, right now i am not satisfied with it, and i think elspeth could solve the problem in a controlish build

any tips how to use her properly in the problematic mathups, and is the ultimate ability sometimes used or not?

[itomarhernandez]

As for Elspeth, I'm hoping she would add a little faster clock and a little more reach. Did she seem like win-more or did she ever help turn a game around or perhaps just catch someone off guard? Sorry, I would just test myself but I'm out of the country for the next week and a half and I'm a bit magic starved. ;p

To me, she's been a "win now" card. The deck itself it very good, but I find that against certain decks, it's hold on the game is only certain for a couple of turns. In these spots, Elspeth is important as a flying Goyf or Knight ends games fastm especially if the ground is clogged. She also helps stall the ground until you can take control. I may side her out often in game 2, but thats because there is specific stuff I need to bring in to solidify a matchup, not because she's bad.

[sdematt]

Elspeth is pretty good. She poops tokens (blockers), and can also win against a Moat (this can be relevant at times). As well, she can make a huge Knight actually go through, as well as any other creature.

All in all, I think she's swell, and if I had room, I'd give her a try. Right now, a slightly updated build with the Vengevival matchup in mind:

3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bojuka Bog/Karakas

3 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Eternal Witness

4 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Phyrexian Arena
2 Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam

Board:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Extirpate
5 pieces of combo hate?

The differing card draw engines are there to add redundancy and to not screw me over. I changed the curve from 3-drop oriented to 2.5 drop and increased the Hierarch count, so I didn't get screwed by Counterbalance floating 3 for the rest of the game. As well, since I'm running enough 3 drops, 4 Dark Confidant would kick me in the nuts hard, so 2 with 2 Arena, 2 Top, and 1 Library should be plenty.

The Path/Swords combo is there for Vengevine and aggro in general, and the rest is really self-explanatory. The Life from the Loam I'm trying at the moment, just to get back Wastelanded lands, but it might become another Dark Confidant or something.

As said before, I've taken out the hand disruption, but may include it in the board.

-Matt

[ZZZ]

Interesting build Matt, I'd like to hear how the different draw engines turn out. I think if you play Loam though, I would at least play a 3rd (and perhaps a 4th) Top because of the synergy with fetches.

I've also sleeved up the deck again and like you play the 6 StP effects main. My current list:
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy (or Volrath's Stronghold)
1 Karakas

4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Knight
2 Pridemage

4 StP
2 PtE
4 Top
4 Vindicate
3 Deed
3 Elspeth
4 Thoughtseize

SB:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Extirpate
4 E-Plague
3 open slots (Pithing Needle, Grip, Choke, Loam...)

Pretty standard list. The maindeck has been geared towards Vengevival, Merfolk and Goblins which is a large part of my meta.
I think the 3 open slots in the side could be dedicated to the Landstill matchup, Needle seems a decent choice as it's also useful against Survival decks. Loam is also an option as it can come in against tempo decks as well.

[Dzra]

You're right, I did forget the +2/+2... ;p I still hold though that pro-red, pro-blue is very relevant against ground clogged games like Golbins and Fish.

Speaking of SBs... Here's mine for the moment.

4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Duress
2 Choke

For mono red Goblins and mono blue Fish I feel safe siding out 4 Thoughtseize for 4 Engineered Plague. I'd probably also try to find room to fit 2-3 Diablic Edicts.

Against Goblins or Fish that splash black though, I'd probably have to find room elsewhere. They will most likely be siding in Perish, which kills every one of our threats. I'd probably be inclined to side out Vindicate.

Zoo would perhaps be 3 Thoughtseize for 3 Diablic Edicts.

Obviously Choke comes in for anyone with Islands.
(EE seems like an easy side out vs New Horizons and it wouldn't hurt to pick up some Edicts for that one as well)

Against Combo I have a whole lot of dead cards, but siding out removal for 2 Duress and 4 Extirpate seems fine. You are going to have a very bad time against combo with no hand hate main and I don't think you can pack enough hate in the board to make the match much better. (I get 10 hand disruption, 4 Extirpate post-SB)

The rest is pretty obvious, Edicts for Emrakul (or when I just need more removal). Extirpate for GY hate. My graveyard hate is perhaps a bit lacking... it wouldn't hurt to pick up a BBog, but I feel pretty tight atm.

I'd also wanted to fit in 2 Life from the Loams but in the matches where I'd want it most (Goblins, New Horizons, Fish) I was having trouble with what to take out. Against Loam it would be nice, but for the mu's that require a lot of removal, siding is already tight.

Thoughts? <3

[sdematt]

I think to "beat" combo, or have a good chance at doing real damage against them, you need discard and protection. The key here is Leyline of Sanctity and hand disruption. Leyline forces them to keep a hand they think they can immediately go off on, while you throw a wrench in the works. It buys you time to make them discard things they want, and gives them less stability in sculpting the perfect hand. Hating combo is not about stopping them cold, because most decks can't do it. It's about buying enough time to kill them, or put them in a horrible position before they go off.

My question comes with the Extirpate. If combo goes for "Ill Gotten Gains" loop with LED, when can you Extirpate? They announce the spell, and wait for response as priority passes. They can crack the LED's at any time since it's a mana ability. Does it use the stack though? I'm curious because if you can't respond to it, priority has been passed back and the spell resolves, so you can't Extirpate. But, if you CAN respond to the LED cracking, you can Extirpate it when it's in the graveyard. I mean, they'll get the mana one time, but they can't loop.

-Matt

[Hawdes]

I think to "beat" combo, or have a good chance at doing real damage against them, you need discard and protection. The key here is Leyline of Sanctity and hand disruption. Leyline forces them to keep a hand they think they can immediately go off on, while you throw a wrench in the works. It buys you time to make them discard things they want, and gives them less stability in sculpting the perfect hand. Hating combo is not about stopping them cold, because most decks can't do it. It's about buying enough time to kill them, or put them in a horrible position before they go off.

My question comes with the Extirpate. If combo goes for "Ill Gotten Gains" loop with LED, when can you Extirpate? They announce the spell, and wait for response as priority passes. They can crack the LED's at any time since it's a mana ability. Does it use the stack though? I'm curious because if you can't respond to it, priority has been passed back and the spell resolves, so you can't Extirpate. But, if you CAN respond to the LED cracking, you can Extirpate it when it's in the graveyard. I mean, they'll get the mana one time, but they can't loop.

-Matt

You can respond to someone who cracks a LED for mana...

Just read the oracle of LED:
Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond, Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant.

It screams activated ability all over it, and of course it uses the stack.

[sdematt]

Yeah, but I remember there being shenanigans going on the last time I played against it. I could be confusing this with when I played against it YEARS ago, but I could've sworn for a time it was a mana ability and didn't use the stack.

-Matt

[Dzra]

Lion's Eye Diamond is an activated mana ability and cannot be responded to. However, I believe the Ill-Gotten Gains loop requires multiple copies of Ill-Gotten Gains or some sort of tutor sitting in their graveyard, so you can Extirpate the Ill-Gotten Gains/tutor in the yard in response to them casting Ill-Gotten Gains. There might be a better way to stop it though; I'm not too familiar with the combo.

[Dzra]

Another GWB Rock deck top 8'd this weekend run by Mike Fyrberg at the StarcityGames.com Legacy Open. The deck got 6th and was nearly identical to Brad Nelson's except for -1 Horizon Canapoy/+1 Savannah MD and -2 Diabolic Edicts/+2 Perish SB.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=35421

I think this shows that the deck is strong, but perhaps just slightly missing the mark somewhere.

[AggroSteve]

i think its about the cardadvantage and disruption that hymn and verdict provide, i often had the problem with my controlish list that i lacked cardadvantage compared to other deck, and due to that i was to often forced to rely on deed, to blow the table clean, if you do not get deed in time to sweep you lose, with the heavy discard package part of this problem is solved because the 2 for 1 discarder provide cardadvantage on their own, and even if they get forced its still cardadvantage, the discard package is awesome against control, works fine against aggro, and actually gives us the option to win against combo without having to sideboard, which is aweseome

i will definitely do a lot of testings with compared lists, allready did a bit..... and 4 mox diamonds is too much believe me, its only fine if you are running a loam rock, othervise 3 is fine.

i will try out some variations for this lists, only thing i do not like that much is the singleton deed in the mainboard, i allways just loved that card, i would prefer a 2 of main, and cut 1 vindicate for it, but this lies in testings

[ZZZ]

Lion's Eye Diamond is an activated mana ability and cannot be responded to. However, I believe the Ill-Gotten Gains loop requires multiple copies of Ill-Gotten Gains or some sort of tutor sitting in their graveyard, so you can Extirpate the Ill-Gotten Gains/tutor in the yard in response to them casting Ill-Gotten Gains. There might be a better way to stop it though; I'm not too familiar with the combo.

The Ill-Gotten Gains loop is technically not a loop and works like this: the combo player plays for instance a Lotus Petal, a Dark Ritual and a LED. Off of the Ritual mana, he then plays an Infernal Tutor and responds to that by cracking LED. IT gets Ill-Gotten Gains which is cast with the 4 black mana floating. They then take back Dark Ritual, LED and the IT to cast it all and get Tendrils. So if you respond to Ill-Gotten Gains by Extirpating Infernal Tutor, they´re screwed.

Normally TES doens´t play IGG main nowadays so they will need to Burning Wish for it with an Infernal Tutor or second Wish in hand.

[itomarhernandez]

Thanks again @ZZZ
Went 4-0 this weekend for 1st at my local store

4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
3 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Kitchen Finks

4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Pernicious Deed

side

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
3 Choke

Round one beat Zoo 2-1
Lost game one fast, won game 2 after going down to 3, won 3 fairly easily

Round two beat Mono Red 2-1
Got crushed fast game one, won a drawn out game two thanks to 2 Thorns, game three he's land light but gets me down to 4, sacs for fireblast so I swords my own Knight (which I revealed off Confidant) and he scoops after

Round three Beat Painter-Grindstone 2-0
Thoughseize, confidant and quasali get there

Round 4 beat New Horizons
Turn one thoughtseize game one reveals a blue counter heavy hand with no blue sources (and one swords) so I take the Ponder in case he draws so he can't dig. A confidant at the first swords, but I had a second. That plus 3+ turns of no blue and I win game one.

Game two was very tough, he gets me down to 4 life on Terravore/Goyf beats. I'm able to make him sac a goyf, swords the terravore then drop a goyf on my own turn. Eventually, i make him sac the other goyf and catch him tapped out with Choke. It's pretty quick from there.

[sdematt]

Looks good, Hernandez. How do you find having no acceleration, ex. Heirarch or Diamond?

I was sitting in Statistics today, doing absolutely nothing, when I stated writing out decklists (I'm assuming other people also do this). This is a little bit off the beaten path of what we normally talk about in this thread, but I figured it's Rock-ish.

Painter's Rock

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Dark Ritual

4 Dark Confidant
4 Painter's Servant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Yixalid Jailer

6 Fetches
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Bayou
6 Swamp
1 Forest

Board:
4 Extirpate
3 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Open (probably Perish, since Painter can turn any Tribal deck to Green :P)



I know it's a little off the beaten path of Rock, but it's Combo-Rock. I've been playing a mono-black version with Contamination-Bitterblossom for the past couple of days online, and it's been stellar. I added Green for Goyf and Pulse for Needle, since I expect the use of Needle to go up with Survival in more rampant use. Playing Jailer main seems the logical evolution, since I can cast it turn 1 if need be, and I also have a quick combo finish. I could also see playing Red Black, with Imperial Recruiter for Jailer main.

I didn't feel like taking this to the Painter thread, since it's Mono Red, and this is basically my home :D

What do you guys think?

-Matt

[ZZZ]

@itomarhernandez: congrats on the finish.
@Matt: my first thoughts (only based on looking at the list, I haven't tested the deck):
- Tombstalker seems a little out of place in a deck with Ghastly Demise and Bob (double fireblasting yourself is extra painful if you're already running Ancient Tomb and Thoughtseize).
- Is this deck capable of running such a fragile combo? Painter (the deck) can abuse (and protect) Painter (the card) by running 8 blasts (and Moon effects). You need to rely on your discard to ensure the combo isn't disrupted, is that working for you?
I wonder if the Helm-Leyline combo isn't a better fit for a Rock shell?

[itomarhernandez]

Looks good, Hernandez. How do you find having no acceleration, ex. Heirarch or Diamond?

I haven't seen it as a problem. In fact, considering my typical starting hands, I would find a turn t1 mox means I''ll only have 3 or 4 cards left on the play. Unless I'm playing a Bob first turn, I don't feel like I have much I need to play turn 1. Thoughtseize, Top or Swords mana turn one is a fine start IMHO

[Arsenal]

I run 4 Hierach (for the mana accel and smoothing) and 4 Pridemage (for the Naturalize effect). The side bonus is Exalted. Do you miss this? Winning Goyf wars is nice and making your other smaller critters beat for big damage is nice, all without having to overextend into a game-breaking sweeoer.

[ZZZ]

I run 4 Hierach (for the mana accel and smoothing)

I'm going to test this as well.
I've got a question for everybody who runs Pernicious Deed; how usefull have you found this card lately?

I have been testing with my list I posted earlier on this page and I've found Deed to be too slow too often. I've been testing against Merfolk and Venvegival mostly; 2 matchups where Deed should be good (against Madness a Deed for 2 takes out almost anything but Vengevine) but it never was good. Playing around Daze and Spell Pierce in the Merfolk matchup is just way too slow. If Vengevival gets a turn 2 Survival, Deed will come too late most of the time and they also have Daze and possibly Stifle.
Against Goblins I never found Deed to be that great as they play quite a lot of creatures with cmc 3 or higher. Deed can be nice against Zoo but they won't overextend against us unless they have to.

I'm going to test a list without Deed and see if I miss it. These are the changes I'm going to try out with my list:
-3 Deed
-1 Elspeth
+4 Noble Hierarch
I'm thinking this should improve the Merfolk and Vengevival matchups as it will allow me to play around taxing counters much easier.
I'd probably like to fit in some Engineered Explosives, either main or in the board but I'm not sure what to cut for them in the main (perhaps the 2 Path to Exile).

[Dzra]

A list with 4 Noble Hierarch and 4 Qasali Pridemage seems cool. You'd lose Mox Diamond and Hymn to Tourach, but you could try out Dueling Grounds, which has always seemed like a cool card to me. Elspeth would get even better.

I doubt you'd want to run Deed; but honestly, Engineered Explosives seems way better in this environment anyways. You'd also have to pack more combo hate in the side most likely though.

But overall, an Exalted subtheme seems like it would work well in the deck.

[Arsenal]

Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Pridemage (with 1 mana open for Daze/activation) is a pretty nice play. And you don't have to cast a single creature after that if your opponent doesn't touch your board as Pridemage becomes a 5 turn clock. And this is without even focusing or caring about Exalted; you really play Hierarch for mana accel and smoothing and Pridemage to deal with retarded shit (Survival seems nice...)

[Dzra]

I recently ran into a whole slew of Affinity decks in my local meta and was wondering on some sideboard choices. Null Rod is a popular choice I know. I was also considering these two less popular choices that might still have some use outside the Affinity MU.

Serenity
Enchantment, 1W (2)
At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy all artifacts and enchantments. They can't be regenerated.

and

Oxidize
Instant, G (1)
Destroy target artifact. It can't be regenerated.

I could be wrong, but it feels like 3 mana for Krosan is going to come too late and I'm already going to be in a world of hurt by t3.

[AggroSteve]

kataki, war's wage would be something i would use, its a beater with 2/1, that costs only 1W, and gives all artefacts an upkeep cost of 1, otherwise just use deed, to blow up all their lands, for example, and you should win, but if you want to dedicate some sideboard slots to it, just go ahead, but i would just handle their big beats and go for a deed to blow them into their death

btw, needle is awesome here,.... needle on ravager or needle on cranial plating is stellar

but i find it very strange to run into affinity, since its a way too vulnerable deck and not even as fast as zoo or sligh

[Dzra]

Affinity has gotten a lot faster since Scars. Some lists are even dropping Aether Vial because it just slows them down. lol They pick up Memnite, Mox Opal, and Galvanic Blast. But yeah, I forgot about Kataki. Good call there.

[sdematt]

I hear Deed tears them a new one. Never had a problem playing against Affinity with the Rock...

-Matt

[Dzra]

Yeah, I've been running EE over Deed because of the Mox Diamonds, but I'll mess around I suppose.

[Dzra]

I just tried a single Maze of Ith for the first time today during testing (against Zoo and Affinity). Maze of Ith is epically good. Basically, you fetch it with you KotR and are able to attack with Knight and leave him open to block/fetch. It gives us the opportunity to easily race games where we are behind on board position. It also synergies well with Sejiri Steppe. My land toolbox nowadays is looking like 1 Karakas, 1 Maze of Ith, and 1 Sejiri Steppe.

It came down to a toss up between Sejiri and Volrath's Stronghold. Stronghold would really shine in the control MU, but the problem is that you are unlikely to resolve a KotR against them and if you do, then you don't particularly need Stronghold anyways. Stronghold basically takes one turn to work, another turn to put your creature back in play, and then still another turn until your creature is actually active again. Sejiri Steppe, on the other hand, loses you no turns at all.

Yeah, cipt lands are kind of janky in Legacy, but Sejiri Steppe gives you a free 2 for 1 on their spot removal. I've only drawn it twice so far. The first time I drew into it and used it to swing in past blockers, the second time it was in my opening 7 and I threw it to Mox Diamond. The only reason I'd run Stronghold over Steppe would be to synergize with Eternal Witness in a control build. If you are running the Hymn/aggro build then I'd definitely suggest Steppe.

[throst54]

I think that as long as you are running Diamonds its okay to run 1-2 CIP lands, and you should be able to avoid being slowed down generally speaking.

Losing your Diamonds to Deed is just like losing your BoP. As long as you got your use outta them its all good, and affinity is going to loose everything, and you're just losing the Mox.

[sdematt]

Deed is most definitely one sided for you, even if you're losing your mana producers. Like Throst said, basically pulling off a one-sided Apocalypse without discarding your hand.

On another note, I'm back from midterms and will be able to post a bit more on here. Who has tested the Vengevine matchup extensively? If no one has, I'll try to out a hundred or so games to get some Statistics for us. If anyone can also do some testing, that'd be swell.

Regards,

Matt

[Dzra]

No, I know Deed is definitely very one sided vs Affinity, but I also have to consider other matchups where blowing up my own Diamonds/Goyf/etc may not be so favorable. Still, I'll consider Deed over EE. I think the single Maze of Ith might be enough to even out the Affinity MU though (in addition to running some hate in the board, probably Grip, but we'll see).

Surprisingly, I still have yet to run into any Vengevival decks in my area, although I know 3 people working to put some together.

[AggroSteve]

i am testing the brad nelson list right now, with the only difference of me trying a few different lands instead of the second swamp, and me playing 61 cards......, my problem with the 61th card is to decide what deserves the slot, right now i am using life from the loam, to get back fetchs, canopy, and wastes, but i am quite not satisfied with the card, i will not go up to 24 land, because i allready get flooded from time to time

i would love if someone has a suggestion, right now i am thinking of following choices: 2nd deed main (another 2 side) , one of-diabolic edict, one of shriekmaw, one of doran or some other beater,...... just can't decide
i am leaning towards 2nd deed, because the list has some problems against decks, that even after so much discard are able to swarm, so deed should be fine,...... anyone other suggestions?, .... besides its rarely to happen that you will blow up any of your own creatures with a deed, since you are only playing about 12

lands tested so far:

treetop village ..... no good, the comes into play tapped is just horrible, otherwise it would be awesome
nantuko monastery...... no good either, because it dies to the same hate as goyf and knight
volraths stronghold....... as Dzra allready said, stronghold is more for a controlish build, even though i allways loved stronghold, i will have to cut it
bojuka bog....... again, comes into play tapped sucks, but can be useful in some situations, specially if you face a lot of graveusing decks, and i can see it be usefull against vengevine, but not as much as the sideboard extirpates

lands still going to be tested:

mishras factory..... could be quite useful and does not come into play tapped, but is colorless
mutavault........ same as factory, but maybe more usefull against tribal
sejiri steppe..... Dzra may be right on this one, have to test, could be quite usefull, and i did not even think of giving my creature protection to force lethal damage even though opponent could have blocked, .... i really like the idea

there should be a lot more lands that should be tested, but no others come to my mind right now

one thing is i do not understand, i read about the synergy of knight with maze of ith, but do not really understand how it works, what purpose does it have to attack with your knight and use maze on your own knight,... if i do not missunderstand my knight will not deal damage like this, or is there something i took wrong?

and again as just said, i would love if someone could come up with some suggestions for my 61th slot

[Dzra]

Combat has 5 steps:
Beginning of combat
Declare attackers
Declare blockers
Combat damage
End of combat

Creatures that are in combat remain in combat until the very end of the End Of Combat. So you can attack, assign damage in the Damage step and then Maze your creature in the End Of Combat after damage has already been assigned.

[sdematt]

I totally forgot that you could do that, Drza. Silly me :P

Maze seems like a pretty decent inclusion, then.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

nice thing, i was plazing maye, and did not even know this, and found maye good either way, so with this, its just awesome^^

[AznSeal]

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Great Sable Stag
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Cabal Therapy

That's my current jund build. I feel like the combination of Dark Confident+Top is extremely powerful as it softens the loss of life as well as netting card advantage and cascade+top is just unfair. Any tips?

[makochman]

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
3 Great Sable Stag
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Cabal Therapy

That's my current jund build. I feel like the combination of Dark Confident+Top is extremely powerful as it softens the loss of life as well as netting card advantage and cascade+top is just unfair. Any tips?

Aren't your men a bit too small on average? Goyf is great, but everything else has low p/t.
Since you're playing black, you should probably include some black gravehate. Extirpate, for example.

[antares]

Hey guys, what's up?

I'm new to the forum and I absolutly loved this thread!
The Rock is my all time favourite deck, and since I started playing Legacy recently, I decided that this would be the ideal deck for me to play.

I currently own, along with a friend of mine, a decent amount of Legacy staples but I'm still really short on Duals, ONS fetchlands and FOW, as well as a few other things. In spite of our "limitation" when we play at our local store
( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19140-[Videos]-Liga-Gargula-Legacy-V-1s-Tournament ) we can always build a decent EvaDepths deck and an average Doran deck. Well, my friend is now testing a cool Tezzerator list and I decided to put this one together (bare in mind the fact that I use shocklands and Ghost Quarters due to the lack of money to invest in Duals and Wastelands lol):

3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains

3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Shriekmaw

3 Thoughtseize
3 Gerrard's Veredict
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Unearth

Sideboard:

3 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Krosan Grip
1 Umezawa's Jitte

A few notes:

Maze of Ith: awsome board control, besides the fact that it stops your opponent's creatures from smashing you in the face, also helps by providing an extra blocker after a successful attack;

3 Tarmogoyf? Yes, unfortunatly, I fail to own the 4th lol that is why I use a Shriekmaw as a recursive removal/beatdown. I know it hurts to take 5 'cause of the Bob but I couldn't think of another creature

No Deed, no Vindicate? Once again, I fail to have any of these cards. That's why I use Maelstrom Pulse and Unearth as well as a singleton Jitte.

Unearth? What the hell is that, some of you may ask... Simply enough, that is the card I figured I could use to fight the mirror becaouse my local metagame is crawling with Deadguy/Junk.

As for Jitte, I figured it would be very usefull against Aggro MU because of the advantage an active Jitte alone can provide.

I wont discuss the Sideboard because it seemed optimal the last time I faced that Meta and I lost only one game post-board (game 3 vs. Merfolks access to top8 round).

My question now is about fighting the Mirror! What do you suggest? I would love to fit Elspeth and Obstinate Baloth (Shriekmaw slot, perhaps?) as they seem to be very powerfull cards in the mirror match. Discarding Baloth, gaining 4 life and a 4/4 body looks really nice, I guess. And swinging past you opponent's KotR with your FLYING KotR always feels cool!

Well, hope you can help me out, next tournament is this Sunday!

Cheers,

Tiago aka Antares

[Dzra]

Played today with the following list and went 3 wins, 1 draw. Top 8 split the prize.

Land 23
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe

Creatures 12
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Other Spells 25
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard 15
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Choke
2 Path to Exile

I did a last minute epic trade to beef my deck up. ;D Traded Jace the Mind Sculptor, two slightly roughed up Mox Diamonds, and four Terravores to get 4 Tarmogoyfs. Now I knew I was locked and loaded. ;)

And sorry if my reports aren't that great, I've been out all day since the tournament and my memory is a bit fuzzy. You should be able to get the idea though. <3

Round 1: Merfolk

Game 1: He was on the play, dropped an island and passed. I decide to play around Daze even though it turns out he didn't have any in hand all game. ;p He plays a lord, I Swords. I eventually drop a Goyf and a top. He starts building some steam. I play EE for 2 and kill two more lords, another folk and my Goyf, drop a Wasteland and kill his Mutavault. I play a kotr and grab a Maze of Ith. I stabilize at 9 or so. He can't get around the evergrowing Knight. I win.

Board: -4 Hymn to Tourach, -4 Thoughtseize, +2 Path to Exile, +2 Choke, +4 Engineered Plague

Game 2: He plays a Tropical Island. I bait him with a Dark Confidant. It works, he Dazes. He plays some Merfolk or another. I play Choke t2, say go. The rest is pretty painful for him. He spends several turns with a Misty Rainforest sitting there. I get out a Goyf and a Knight. He eventually draws another land, fetches, plays Goyf. I fetch a Wasteland, so now he's back to 1 land. I Swords his Goyf and proceed to beat face with the team (using Maze to untap the Knight).

Round 2: Elves Aggro

Games 1: I play, he mulls to 6. T1 Thoughtseize. He has a hand full of 2 and 3 drops, with 1 Forest and 1 Land Grant. I take Land Grant. He plays a Forest and passes. I Hymn to Tourach, he tosses a couple lords. I play Goyf. He plays a Quirion Ranger. Here's where it gets bad. I have Wasteland, Vindicate, and a couple fetches in my hand. I wanted to Vindicate his only land, but gg @ that. So I figure I'll Vindicate the elf and hope I draw into something. Nope. I draw land the next 6 or 7 turns in a row. He gets out a deathtouch elf that stalls Goyf and then he explodes before I can draw gas. He still takes a long time to kill me because I land an EE and eventually get a Knight and a Maze out. It was still a lost cause though and I knew it. I really should have conceded to get on with game 2, but I'm stubborn. I valiantly double Wasteland my own Bayous and KotR my basic Forest to stop his forestwalking elves and surprise block his dudes, but he eventually beats my face in with numbers and lords.

Board: -4 Dark Confidant, -2 Vindicate, +4 Engineered Plague, +2 Path to Exile

Game 2: I don't remember everything, this game went fast. I t1 Thoughtseize, take his mana producer. t2 Goyf. t3 Engineered Plague. t4 Knight. Beat face. Pause, Vindicate a Pithing Needle on Knight. Continue to beat face.

After Game 2, we hit time and had to draw. Boo hoo. That's what I get for being stubborn.

Round 3: Enchantress

Game 1: T1 Goyf. t2 Knight. At some point here, I have the option to either Vindicate his Enchantress's Presence or his Chrome Mox. I decide to save it. I remember thinking it was a good call, because he dropped another land next turn anyways. I feed a second Mox Diamond to Goyf and I continue to beat face. He scoops.

Board: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -2 EE, +4 Extirpate, +2 Diabolic Edict (I thought he might board in Emrakul, but he didn't)

Game 2: He played and fetched. I Extirpate his Windswept Heath and get to peak at his hand and library. Nothing too exciting. T2 Dark Confidant. T3 Top and Goyf. Bring out a Knight, Thoughtseize. See that he's got nothing. Vindicate his Enchantress's Presence (this was probably an overly confident play as you'll see). He draws Enlightened Tutor for Moat. Luckily I find a Hymn with Top. He has three cards in hand, luck is with me (and statistics ;D), Moat to the yard. Next turn swing for victory.

Round 4: Zoo

Game 1: I was on the play. My hand was Wasteland, fetch, fetch, Hymn, Hymn, Swords, Swords. I feel good. Play fetch, say go. He plays a Steppe Lynx. Swords. T2 Hymn, draw another land. He plays a Kird Ape. T3 Hymn again and Wasteland. He stalls. T4, I Swords the Ape, play a Goyf. Eventually get a Knight out and decide to keep him on defense. Good call. He eventually tries to double Chain Lightning Knight, I fetch Sejiri Steppe. He face palms.

Board: -4 Thoughtseize, +2 Path, +2 Diabolic Edict

Game 2: He plays a Kird Ape. I Wasteland his Taiga, pitch Sejiri Steppe to Mox Diamond, Swords his tiny Ape. Plays another land, gets another Wasteland. T3 I play a Goyf. He paths Goyf. T4 I play Bob and Wasteland again. I play Top, meanwhile he has no board. I get out a Knight. He gets out a Plains, plays Steppe Lynx two turns in a row with no landfall in sight. I EE for 1 an continue swinging. Good game.

It's close to 5:00 and we are all hungry, so we split. The top 4 were me, URG "Good Stuff," Team America (UBG), and something else... I want to say either Goblins or Enchantress. I used my prize support to get a Pernicious Deed and a couple packs. The Deed went straight into the sideboard in place of the 3rd Diabolic Edict. How do you like that, elves? :)

Other than the Deed, I really wouldn't change anything.

MVPS:

Knight of the Reliquary is amazing. So long as they don't reprint him, I can only see his value going up. His ability to be completely huge and beat face is only matched by his amazing utility. There are so many good lands.

Engineered Explosives devastated Merfolk. I knew it was good against Zoo, but I didn't realize how centered around 2cmc Merfolk was.

Top was amazing. I've known some people to use Mirri's Guile instead to cut down on the extra 1 to peak, but Top was amazing. At least 4 or 5 times, I would fetch/shuffle and then use top to put a creature in my hand so that I could play it that turn. If I had been using Mirri's Guile, I would have wasted an entire turn drawing the creature and waiting for its summoning sickness. This way I could untap with a creature ready to roll. Top's draw ability helped me not miss my land drop a couple times as well.

Unfortunately I didn't draw Elspeth all day and I very much wish that I'd had Pernicious Deed in the board for Elves. Oh well. I'm playing again tomorrow. Good day, sirs.

<3

[AggroSteve]

pernicious deed is very important i noticed, i have gone up to 2 MD and still only 1 SB but thinking of adding another one for sideboard

i am thinking of cutting the engineered plagues in the sideboard for darkblast (which is quite good with divining top, and does actually the same thing in the needed matchups), and i will probably drop duress from my sideboard for more spotremoval, since at my place there is not much combo

sejiri steppe has definitely merited a MD slot now for me, it saved my knight allready so many times from swords, and other targeted removal, its awesome

only thing i would wish for is a evasive beater and more place maindeck^^

[Dzra]

I played again today and had a rather disappointing finish. I might do a more in depth report later but here is the gist.

Round 1: Countertop

Game 1: I win due to drawing three Wastelands and two Vindicates, easily keeping him off his mana.

Board: -4 Thoughtseize, -2 EE, +2 Choke, +1 Pernicous Deed, +3 Extirpate

Game 2: I play a Bob and a Goyf, everything gets countered and I stall out.

Game 3: Ends in a draw. We both have Goyfs on the board. No win in sight for either of us.

Round 2: Fairie Ninja Standstill

lol, it's a homebrew one of my friend's made. It runs a lot like Merfolk except it uses ninja tricks to sneak out bigger creatures.

Game 1: I land Bob, Top, and Knight and stabalize around 6.

Board: -4 Thoughtseize, -2 EE, +4 Engineered Plague, +2 Choke

Game 2: I wasteland then land a Choke and he scoops.

Round 3: Countertop Thopter

Game 1: Exactly like g1 against the other Countertop. I kill his land and win.

Board: Same as the other.

Game 2: It is back and forth for a little while until he lands a Jace and starts peaking at my top card. I scoop before he can go ultimate.

Game 3: Back and forth for a while. I land Elspeth. He can't do anything. Time is called. When he is at 5 life, he rips an O-Ring off the top and we draw.

Round 4: Affinity

Game 1: I lose to 3 Ravagers.

Board: -4 Dark Confidant, -1 Thoughtseize, +2 Path to Exile, +2 Diabolic Edict, +1 Deed

Game 2: I keep a hand with a Vindicate, a Swords, and an Edict but I should have mulled into EE or Deed. He rolls me before I can stabalize with two Ravagers and some Frogmites.

1 : 1 : 2
Bleh. I feel like I played much better than that looks. Those draws really were frustrating. I had no game against Affinity today though, so the loss was totally my fault.

I'm thinking about dropping the Diabolic Edicts for 2 more Deeds in the SB. That should give me a lot better game VS Affinity and should also help Countertop. Other than boarding Grips (that just feels redundant to me with Vindicates), is there anything I could do to help make my Countertop MU more solid? Perhaps boarding out Thoughtseize was a bad idea.

[AggroSteve]

i will do some testings against countertop, when i have done that i will tell you my opinion on the matchup, but i can and will only test the countertop goyf list, since i feel it to be the strongest

by the way, i would have done other sideboarding against countertop thopter, because basically if you land a engineered plague on thopter, they have real hard time beating you, since the only other winoption i think is jace, and you should be able to get rid of him

in the meantime here is my list, but i have to say i am not totally satisfied with my sideboard.... still tinkering around with that


lands + mana (still using shocklands because i still havent got the real ones)

3x overgrown tomb
2x godless shrine
4x verdant catacombs
4x marsh flats
1x forest
1x swamp
1x plains
1x sejiri steppe (awesome tech really)
1x karakas
1x maze of ith
1x horizon canopy
3x wasteland

3x mox diamond

creatures

4x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf
4x knight of the reliquary

spells

4x thoughtseize
4x hymn to tourach
2x gerrards verdict
4x swords to plowshares
4x vindicate
2x pernicious deed
3x sensei's divining top

Sideboard

4x extirpate
2x pernicious deed
3-4x diabolic edict
3-4x engineered plague
2x duress

only things i will surely keep in these numbers in my sideboard are deed and extirpate, with the rest i am tinkering around, depending on meta

[Dzra]

Yeah, actually against Countertop Thopter, I didn't even see Thopter Foundry until Game 3. And even then, it just sat there. I suppose I should have guessed when I didn't see any green mana. Really though, Thopters weren't the problem. The problem cards for me were Jace the Mind Sculptor, Moat, and his Enlightened Tutor toolbox. Really, fighting that deck is like walking uphill through mud.

I did make a play error in game 3 that I believe could have cost me the win, looking back. There was a moment when I could have pulled an Extirpate off the top with Top and Extirpated his Swords. He already had two Swords in the yard though, so I figured it wasn't as big an issue. (to be fair though, he did have a Counterbalance out, so it might not have mattered) Right before time was called, he Swords my Goyf (which would have dealt lethal). This forced me to make a token next turn and gave him two extra turns to find an answer to Elspeth.

Against the first Countertop deck in game 1, I made a pretty embarrassing play error as well. I had an active Knight out and a Maze of Ith. I swung in. He took damage. I should have untapped my Knight with Maze at the end of combat to keep him active, but he had a dude with flying out that I wanted to use Maze on. (I shouldn't have been worried, I was at plenty of life) He untaps, draws a Swords, kills the Knight and buys himself several turns while I wait for a creature on top.

Games 2 and 3 against him, there really wasn't much more I could have done. Game 2 was bad draws. Game 3 could have been either of us.

My sideboarding strategy against Countertop was similar to my strategy against Merfolk, which is board out hand hate and shoot for the long game. Against Countertop, I figured that I was going to hit the end game anyways, so I might as well take out hand disruption. Perhaps that was the wrong idea. Maybe I should think about boarding in more disruption and really shooting for the early game. This feels like putting all my eggs in one basket, but I'm starting to think that Countertop has much more game in the end game than we do.

Also, I found that even though Choke has been amazing against Merfolk and primarily Blue decks... against Countertop it is usually only slightly annoying to them (they start fetching basics anyways once they realize we have Wastelands) and they find an answer for it within the next few turns.

Cards I'm thinking about for Countertop are Gerrard's Verdict (going a more early game sort of approach) and Vampire Nighthawk. I like Gerrard's Verdict, but the meta I usually play in has very little Countrol and a lot of Aggro. I feel like I can't risk topdecking Verdict when I need an answer for Aggro.

Nighthawk... I saw another Rock deck playing Nighthawk and the idea appealed to me, but I couldn't think of how to fit it in MD. Maybe it deserves a SB spot if I'm expecting Countertop though. It raises our threat level, it gives us more options racing Goyf (it would be really dirty with a Maze out), and best of all... it can fly over Moat.

Assuming an ideal world sort of SB, I might try this against Countertop: -4 Swords to Plowshare, -2 EE, -2 Maybe Vindicate??, +4 Vampire Nighthawk, +2 Gerrard's Verdict, +2 Pernicious Deed (alternatively, I could not board in Deeds and hope that I can finish them off really early).

Perhaps though, the moral of the story is to play more efficiently. /shrug

[AggroSteve]

i would recommend going for the aggro-discard and less control against any deck that counters, in any way, simply because a turn 1 hymn often enough criples them, and a gerrards verdict on turn 1 is just about the same, because to keep their lands they will have to discard their business-spells, otherwise they will get manascrewed because we have wastelands and vindicates

but deed is definitely important in this matchup, but 2 deed 4 vindicate should do it
i think maybe we should try extirpates in this matchup, because in this matchup it is so versatile, because we can rob opponents lands out of their library, remove their only viable removal against our guys (swords to plowshares), also if going for discard anything that could annoy us during the match, and last but not least remove their counters, and they can't do a thing about it.

nighthawk is no good at least in this variant of the deck, if using elspeth as well maybe it could work but, he is simply no threat at all and gets burned by firespout, i tried nighthawk in a few different rocklists, and the only one where he was good is a list together with stoneforge mystic and equipments.

i was thinking of some other beaters that can fly over moat without elspeth, and the only viable choices in my mind are abyssal persecutor (problem with getting rid of him if the job is done), tombstalker (does not fit because we allready have goyf and knight, otherwise he would be the one i would use), and Mystic Enforcer (same weakness as our other beaters, but 6/6 flying and protection black is not bad at all)

if jace is the biggest problem in this matchup, i would opt to run or pinthing needle or maybe even runed halo in the sideboard, runed halo would also help in the combo matchup, which is not bad


i would be interested in how the countertop players sideboarded, since you won game 1 both times easily by denying mana, and lost or drew the following games, do you remember anything about their sideboarding??

[Dzra]

i would recommend going for the aggro-discard and less control against any deck that counters, in any way, simply because a turn 1 hymn often enough criples them, and a gerrards verdict on turn 1 is just about the same, because to keep their lands they will have to discard their business-spells, otherwise they will get manascrewed because we have wastelands and vindicates

but deed is definitely important in this matchup, but 2 deed 4 vindicate should do it
i think maybe we should try extirpates in this matchup, because in this matchup it is so versatile, because we can rob opponents lands out of their library, remove their only viable removal against our guys (swords to plowshares), also if going for discard anything that could annoy us during the match, and last but not least remove their counters, and they can't do a thing about it.

nighthawk is no good at least in this variant of the deck, if using elspeth as well maybe it could work but, he is simply no threat at all and gets burned by firespout, i tried nighthawk in a few different rocklists, and the only one where he was good is a list together with stoneforge mystic and equipments.

i was thinking of some other beaters that can fly over moat without elspeth, and the only viable choices in my mind are abyssal persecutor (problem with getting rid of him if the job is done), tombstalker (does not fit because we allready have goyf and knight, otherwise he would be the one i would use), and Mystic Enforcer (same weakness as our other beaters, but 6/6 flying and protection black is not bad at all)

if jace is the biggest problem in this matchup, i would opt to run or pinthing needle or maybe even runed halo in the sideboard, runed halo would also help in the combo matchup, which is not bad


i would be interested in how the countertop players sideboarded, since you won game 1 both times easily by denying mana, and lost or drew the following games, do you remember anything about their sideboarding??

Ah right, Firespout. Good call there, sorry Nighthawks.

I'm not totally sure what they brought in actually.. Unfortunately, when I didn't make top 4, I left (I was running late for somewhere anyways) so I didn't get a chance to ask them. I should see that same group of players the Sunday after next though so I can ask them then.

My guess though is that they brought in some enchantment/artifact hate in order to hit EE/Deed and it unintentionally helped them against Choke (or maybe they were just ready for it). I suspect that they also brought in more removal like O-Rings which are particularly good against us since it is a 3cmc and our curve is really centered on 3. Moat might have come from the side or might have been main. They might have sided in Pithing Needles, but I never saw them. Their counterspell count seemed pretty consistent throughout the match though. The Thopters guy might have boarded his Daze, but I know he still had Forces.

As for my success with boarding out hand disruption VS Merfolk... I feel it's due to the fact that we have a much, much stronger endgame than they do, counters or not.

[sdematt]

Rock took 4-5 slots out of the Top 20 at SCG Open: Charlotte. I wouldn't be surprised if some people thought Knight of the Reliquary was just TOO good :tongue:

-Matt

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I think taking out EE against counter top decks is your biggest mistake. This is one "destroy target counterbalance" card that is really only counterable by them using up their force of will. Also I could not see taking out thoughtseize against them as it is the bomb and also is great at stopping that CB from hitting the table or ripping out that FoW so your EE can take out CB.


For those of you looking at a more aggro meta, I would look into running some Ghastly Demise. I usually like to run 2x alongside the 4x swords and it generally turns out pretty good for me. I feel duress is a waste of a sideboard slot, and pithing needle is almost a must have. With survival decks running rampant pithing is really good. It may seem like overkill, but bojuka bog is really nice to have here too. It works well against other graveyard decks too. I suggest 2 deed main and 2 in the board because it is that damn good. It is especially sick against merfolk. The only issues I am still running into is what to play as hate vs. storm combo. Canonist, Teeg, and Leyline of Sanctity all seem pretty viable. I've been going with the Leyline because there's usually at least one person in my meta playing burn... and this crushes burn (which is otherwise a pretty bad matchup for us). That's my 2 cents for today.

[Dzra]

I think taking out EE against counter top decks is your biggest mistake. This is one "destroy target counterbalance" card that is really only counterable by them using up their force of will. Also I could not see taking out thoughtseize against them as it is the bomb and also is great at stopping that CB from hitting the table or ripping out that FoW so your EE can take out CB.

Hmmm... maybe the reason I had trouble games 2 and 3 was more due to me gimping myself after boarding than them getting better... That'd be pretty facepalm. ;/ I do admit though, I'm fairly new to the Legacy scene and that was my first experience against Countertop. I suppose I could conceivably see boarding in 2 Pernicious Deeds in place of the EE and leaving the rest of the deck as is, but EE does have the advantage of getting around Counterbalance.

That being said, I've wondered if I shouldn't just run Deed over EE anyways. I originally liked EE because it was much more 1-sided against aggro and it came online faster... Part of me feels like I'd rather have a board wipe that I can be more selective with than an "oh shit" button. However, Deed is definitely more powerful and 2cmc is a number I frequently use EE for anyways. Deed is also a house against Affinity.

It's a tough call. ;/ I feel like Deed might be the better choice though.

As for Ghastly Demise, I run Path over it in the SB since I see the mirror a fair amount.

[AggroSteve]

i was wondering about how well engineered plague was performing for you guys, i am quite unsatisfied with it, actually the only matchup where it is good is against goblins, merfolk has too many lords for plague to be effective enough

other thing i was thinking about is duress in the sideboard, i was thinking of cutting them as well, and add needle in their place, but with cutting duress i feel like losing against combo (do not know why)

ghastly demise and path actually have the same purpose, with path beeing better against vengevine, but giving opponent more lands which demise would not, i think its a decision depending on the build

[Dzra]

I can think of only two good options. One being run Infect over Engineered Plague and the other being run 4 Path to Exile (up from 2) and a fourth Deed. That said, I'm not sure I'm really that disappointed in Engineered Plague.

As for Duress, I dropped it a while ago because no one in either of the two areas I play at uses Storm. I'm always a little scared that I'll run into one by surprise, but Id rather prepare for the decks I know are there.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

As for Ghastly Demise, I run Path over it in the SB since I see the mirror a fair amount.

The reason I choose Demise of Path is because when you're running wastelands... path helps defeat the purpose of wasteland. Also I find it sometimes useful to be able to put a creature in the graveyard to help tarmogoyf. Really the only time path is better is when hitting vengevine, which is enough to want to run path over demise if your meta has much vengevines in it.

Of the times i've played with plague, i've been extremely disappointed in it. I find that the Tabernacle at Pendril Vale as a 1 of in the sb is fine for goblins and storm decks alike. When playing storm the 4 leyliines and 1 tabernacle seem to be doing the trick for me. If they put out tokens, deed hits em, or tabernacle gets there, usually via KoTR.

[AggroSteve]

tabernacle sure would be an awesome thing, but financially not possible for me

i was now wondering if anyone knows some alternatives to plague or infest

[Dzra]

This is my sideboard with Engineered Plague.

4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Pernicious Deed

This is what I'm thinking about changing it to minus the Plagues.

4 Extirpate
4 Path to Exile
2 Choke
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Bojuku Bog (this is somewhat of a flex slot)

The relevant part would be the 2 more Paths and the 1 more Deed. Right now, I sideboard against Merfolk like so: +1/2 Paths, +2 Choke, +3/4 Plague, +1 Deed. Post-Plague, I'd SB: +4 Path, +2 Choke, +2 Deed.

As far as Path being counterproductive, I agree that if you aren't expecting Vengevine or many other decks running Black then you might as well run Ghastly Demise. However, in my meta there are 2 other Rock decks, 2 Affinity decks, 1 Mono-black, and 1 GW Survival. Demise cannot hit Tombstalker, Dark Confidant, or Disciple and it's only an annoyance to Vengevine.

Goblins, Merfolk, and Elves, where I am going to need extra removal the most, are generally mono-colored or have a slight splash (they are unlikely to have more than 1 basic, if that, in their splash color). The Wasteland plan is generally not going to be that good against them anyways. Wastelands in those matchups are relegated to nuking key lands, not trying to completely screw your opponent. (with the exception being against Merfolk with a Choke resolved, however Path plays nice with Choke regardless)

I'm still trying to decide if this seems stronger against Tribal/aggro decks than Plague or not. It is a very reactive plan, where plague is proactive, but the idea of being able to have 8 Swords effects post-board is pretty appealing.

[sdematt]

I've changed my build around a bit, firstly adding Maze of Ith after realizing it's THAT good (:tongue:) and cutting my curve to just above 2.

I was looking over the list that did well at the SCG Opens and realized: they run 0 basics lands. Wait, nvm, I saw they run 3. Seems very risky to me at least. As well, they run 4 Wastelands and only 6 duals? I know they have the Moxen, but still.

Anyways, my newly updated list. My Knights probably don't get as big as the SCG lists do, but they get there enough.

3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Phyrexian Arena
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares

I'd love if you guys could give it a test drive and tell me what you think.

[JonBarber]

I've changed my build around a bit, firstly adding Maze of Ith after realizing it's THAT good (:tongue:) and cutting my curve to just above 2.

I was looking over the list that did well at the SCG Opens and realized: they run 0 basics lands. Wait, nvm, I saw they run 3. Seems very risky to me at least. As well, they run 4 Wastelands and only 6 duals? I know they have the Moxen, but still.

Anyways, my newly updated list. My Knights probably don't get as big as the SCG lists do, but they get there enough.

3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Phyrexian Arena
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares

I'd love if you guys could give it a test drive and tell me what you think.

Are you not playing mox diamonds due to money reasons? And why none of the discard suite?

[sdematt]

I have the Diamonds but have liked Hierarchs for the Exalted bonus, and I've never liked the discard suite. I was playing 4 Thoughtseize and 3 Hymn, and personally never found the discard to be enough when I played. Playing 10 pieces is obviously much better, but I found drawing discard late in the game was absolute balls, and early game is wasn't enough for the matchups where is was supposed to matter (combo or something like that).

I've gone for a more controlling build instead "aggro," like the Junk lists from SCG.

As Jaco said on the Eternal Central article, you don't really need Diamonds, as you have enough first turn plays, and they become huge dead draws later on.

Was fiddling with the deck for the past few hours and I'm going to give the discard suite a try again.

New list:

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
(I have that I've cut 3 basics for 3 Wasteland, feels SO dirty...)

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
3 Noble Hierarch

4 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 slot if need be (an extra pulse, Sylvan Library, Maze of Ith, Karakas, Deed, Arena, etc.)

Board:
2 Deed
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
3 Choke (or 3 Pate 2 Choke)

It's a little faster, and not AS controlling, but much more fragile. It's still more stable than the lists that went to Charlotte, though.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

first i did not like the discard suite at all, but now that i have intensively tested with it, i will not go back simply because it gives me the card advantage i have been seeking for, and the deck is more flexible in playing now (used a controllish build previously, just like yours sdematt)

the deck can play aggro with the discard, but also controlisch, since i still have 4x StoP, 4x Vindicate, 2x Deed main, and more spotremaval in the sideboard

now i have the options to manascrew opponent with 3x wasteland + 4x vindicate (+ hymn eventually)
the discard package together with mox diamonds is able to destroy opponents gameplan, even before he did start playing any spells
i feel more comfortable with the discardpackage, since now i am less forced to draw answer after answer to opponents threads

only thing that disturbs me a bit is that the deck relies almost to much on confidant like this, which is not the case with a more controllish build

these are my expieriences with the discard package,....... and by the way i would play maze of ith in a controllish build as well, simply because this land is AWESOME!! :D


i have now changed my sideboard as well:

4x extirpate
4x diabolic edict
2x path to exile
3x duress
2x deed

i would love to fit in 2x needle but i do not know which slots i could take out... maybe 1x duress, and either 1x edict or extirpate, what would you take out?

[Dzra]

I love Mox Diamonds. If I ever draw them late in the game they usually aren't even a dead draw. I'll just pitch it straight to the graveyard without discarding a land and poof! Tarmogoyf gets an easy +1/+1.

That said, I'm going to start experimenting with boarding out the hand disruption in favor of more board control depending on whether or not I'm on the play or draw. On the play, I'll board in two Gerrard's Verdict. On the draw, I'll board out disruption in favor of Paths and extra Deeds.

As for what to cut, Steve, I'd go with Diabolic Edict or Duress. I haven't been that impressed with Edict (I MD Karakas anyways) and my meta has no combo so I cut Duress. I definitely wouldn't go less than four Extirpates.

[AggroSteve]

actually i have been loving edicts, really, they are most of the time the same as targeted removal, even help against enchantress^^, i just wish there was enough place for 16 cards in the sideboar, but you are probably right, i think extirpate must be a 4-of, so i will cut 1x duress and 1x edict

another question
@ Dzra, is choke performing really that good against blue based decks, .... let me be clearer, do we need choke against blue decks, is it like a "i win button" or does it simply make winning easier?

the question comes to my mind because i am still thinking what would be better to include, needle or choke
have you tried needle in chokes place?, if yes how did it perform, and what are the pro-cons in your opinion, what archetypes would needle actually be better against, and what matchup, which is bad is improved by either one of those cards

for needle i think:

vengevival, blecher, goblin/merfolk (vial, siegegang,... don't know), countertop(jace),....... please help thinking on this, what are the best cards to name in relevant/bad matchups to improve the matchup

choke:
any bluebased deck like merfolk, countertop, new horizons, ........ please tell me your expieriences with it

last question: may seem kind of dull, but actually i have only few expierience in tournaments, so could anyone tell me what matchups are the worst one for this deck (with discardsuite), and which are the easiest ones

@Dzra: i was wondering where you are from, since i am looking for new places to play legacy, i am from Innsbruck in Austria, does anyone live nearby, and does anyone know where the nearest legacy-tournaments are taking place?

[Dzra]

Choke has definitely been an "I Win" button against mono-blue decks and blue decks with tiny splashes. It hasn't performed too well for me against Countertop as they have plenty of non-island basics to fetch. It might work well against New Horizons as they only run 1-2 basics. Choke has a lot of synergy with the land destruction theme of the deck. (for example, Choke keeps your Islands/Dual Lands tapped down, I Wasteland your Mutavault, then I Vindicate your Forest, gg)

Needle is definitely more versitile than Choke. Against Merfolk and Goblins I would probably name Aether Vial. Survival is an obvious name. Against Countertop you could name Jace, Seal of Cleansing, Aura of Silence, Top, Thopter Foundry, etc. It would just depend on board position. The biggest reason I wouldn't run Needle though is that it has pretty bad synergy with Deed.

I've had the most trouble with Affinity, but I've been changing my SB up so I don't think it'll be so bad next time. I've heard that Burn can be a challege too though (and Zoo can definitely be a problem if they keep a really Burn heavy hand). Both of those decks empty their hand quickly, turning our discard (CA) into card disadvantage. Burn even more so, since they have next to no non-basic lands, and few Vindicate targets. A first turn Hymn against either one is exceptionally good though because they can both keep very fragile starting hands, after t2/3 though, the discard is useless.

I'm from Dallas, Texas actually. ;D If anyone lives around me then let me know! There's a couple places I play in the North Dallas area.

[AggroSteve]

yeah the dissynergy with deed is one thing that still keeps me thinking what to put in my board, and your argumentation for choke seem more than reasonable

what are your boarding strategies against merfolk and goblins with your sideboard (and maybe zoo as well, since as you stated the discard package will be near to useless), and would needle actually improve them by naming vial, or mutavault, lavamancer, or whatever

my usual boarding plans against decks that empty their hands extremely fast (except burn, did not test that) was simply to replace my hymn, gerrards verdict, and eventually 1x thoughtseize, with 2 deeds and the spotremoval and edicts

against dredge there come in deeds and extirpates for the discard (hymn + verdict)

the deck is fine as it is against aggro-control and control decks (that do not swarm like goblin and merfolk), meaning there are only small adaptments to do (like choke for example)

against combo there would be boarded out spotremoval, for more discard and extirpates (eventually deeds if opponent is running ETW)

well actually everything is pretty obvious there, but i would not know how to board against burn, but i do not think burn of being a relevant deck, and you can still always sword your own knight go gain life, and that shoud pretty much do it i think

hmm, was hoping someone was from innsbruck, or at least austria :( .... anyone? :P

[sdematt]

Zalachan is from Slovenia, so it's not too far away :P

There must be some people close to you in Germany, I think.

-Matt

[Dzra]

Not that you're likely to see it often, but against Burn I would probably side out Pernicious Deed, Vindicate, Dark Confidant, then hand disruption in that order. Disruption isn't terribly good against them, but we don't have a lot to side in its place. Using my sideboard, I'd probably do:

+4 Path to Exile - cheap, instant removal has marginal use against them
+4 Extirpate - probably our best SB card against them (not that its saying a lot) since they have so many 4-ofs.
+2 Gerrard's Verdict - Lifegain? Why not.

-4 Dark Confidant - They can pretty much kill him whenever they feel like it and he speeds up their clock by a good amount.
-4 Vindicate - Too slow, not enough permanents.
-2 Deed - ^

[AggroSteve]

just noticed my boarding against dredge was missing something

- hymn
- verdict
- vindicates

+ extirpates
+ deeds
+ edicts
+ duress (on the play)

thanks for showing me you boaring plan against burn, and hopefully i will find some new places to play legacy^^

[SpikeyMikey]

I like the listing that I'm running. I don't pack any Hymns or Verdicts, but I am maining Pridemages, which gives me a little more in the way of critters and more removal than standard lists. I think it's posted about a dozen pages back, haven't changed much except cutting my basic plains for a sejiri steppe. There's not a lot of B2B or Blood Moon in the format right now, so I'm not worried about losing basic white.

[sdematt]

Mikey, please repost just so we can keep on top of it. :D

-Matt

[SpikeyMikey]

4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Forest

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage

4 Thoughtseize
4 Extirpate

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

//SB

4 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds



I don't think there's much in there that needs explanation. Maybe a bit of the sideboard. I run Hierarch over Kitchen Finks because it's better against Big Zoo. Since fast aggro is where we need the life gain critters most and Big Zoo is the most prevalent (at least, that I see), I'd rather have the bigger Hierarch that can at least hold back Goyf/KotR/Vore early on and isn't such a dog to Lavamancer. He's a little slower, but 23 lands is enough that you should be able to hit 4 mana on turn 4 regularly and you're not likely to be using Waste against them anyway. They're too fast to do the kind of mana disruption that would make it worth boarding in Crucible.

I run Selkie where most people would run Choke. I can see why most people would want Choke, Selkie may be a sub-optimal play, but I'm in love with the card, so I run it. Drawing cards means drawing more threats. Choke means giving them less options in stopping threats by cutting off their mana supply, but most people are good enough to play around it. Most people are not packing enough removal to be able to keep Confidant, KotR and Selkie off the board, and with Stronghold, sometimes I'm recurring him later to add some pressure. I think it's a trade-off; like I said, Choke is stronger if it lands early, but Selkie is harder for them to play around and it can come back with Stronghold.

The 1 Elspeth is kind of random, but there's nothing in the deck that I would be comfortable with cutting from the main (having 11 ways to remove creatures is very important, I think, with how popular G/W Vengevival is). It could be the 4th KotR instead, but I like it's cc against CB/Top and I like that it gives me a way to break stalemates late by sending creatures through the air. If I were going to change it into anything else, I'd consider Liliana Vess, but I think Elspeth is stronger. Most of my tutor targets are things I want to fetch out at instant speed with KotR (Bog/Steppe). The Steppe idea I picked up a few pages back and while I have yet to actually use it, I think it's invaluable.

Anecdotally, I just played Big Zoo on MWS a few minutes ago. He had 4 lands on the board and swung with 2 10/10 KotR's and an 11/11 Terravore into my 2 5/5 KotR's, a Confidant and a 2/3 Goyf. I blocked the vore and a KotR with my 2 KotR's and then used the active KotR (the other was summoning sick) to fetch out Bojuka Bog. There was a pause and then a "System Player Lost". Shocking. :)

Having 4 Extirpates main is good times. I've always felt like Rock should have 3-4 Extirpates main, I even talked about it back when I posted this listing before. With the Wastes and Thoughtseizes, you can often really throw someone off their game with Extirpate. With Vengevival around, it's just that much better. I think this deck is just very strongly positioned right now, and this listing makes me very happy. If I saw more Storm combo, I'd probably cut Needles and Crucible in favor of Duress and maybe Aven Mindcensor. I think Mindcensor is very strongly positioned right now as well. It's good against Survival and it's the nuts against Doomsday or Infernal Tutor. Since combo tends to be light on removal (or non-fetch lands for that matter), Mindcensor is a good way to seriously slow them down, possibly enough to beat them to death with lots of slow creatures!

[Dzra]

Saturday I split top 2 in a relatively small local tourny. I didn't yet have my deck optimized the way I'd like (mainly the SB where I still have Engineered Plague for now), but I didn't manage to borrow 2 Pernicious Deed to replace my 2 MD EE.

Round 1: RB Sligh
G1: He Wastelanded me t1 and t2 and I never drew another land.

Board: -2 Pernicious Deed, +2 Path to Exile (I would have loved to SB out more, but my board simply didn't have anything useful yet)

G2: I play Bob, he plays an Isochron Scepter with Terminate of all things. He kills Bob and I sit back and take some Burn until t3 when I Vindicate. I manage to Wasteland/Vindicate him out of Black sources the rest of the game and end up killing him with a KotR.

G3: I Thoughtseize his PoP and keep him off Black mana and win with Goyf and Knight.

Both the last two games felt close because even after I stabilized, I was still within double bolt range. Had my SB been what it will be next week, I would have sided: -4 Dark Confidant, -2 Deed, +4 Path, +2 Verdicts

Round 2: Sneak Attack
G1: I keep him off red with Wastelands, Vindicate, and Swords (on a Bird) and Thoughtseize away his mana. Win with a flying Goyf via everyone's favorite Knight-Errant.

Board: -2 Deed, +2 Diabolic Edict

G2: Again, I keep him off red mana for a while, but eventually he lands a couple Birds. I Thoughtseize and see that he can go off next turn. He has Emrakul, Inkwell Leviathan, and Simic Sky Swallower. I have a 6/6 KotR in play. I take the Sky Swallower because it has flying. Next turn he plays Through the Breach and Emrakul. I respond by getting a Karakas with Knight. Next turn I'm able to shut him off red again and I win.

Round 3: Affinity
G1: I don't know what I'm playing so I keep a hand with 2 Wastelands, a fetch, a KotR, and 2 Vindicate. Seems good. He was on the play, I should have Wastelanded him twice to try to slow him down, but I'm not sure that would have even helped. My plan was to get to 3 mana, drop a knight, then double Wasteland him next turn and stabalize, but I was way too slow.

Board: -4 Dark Confidant, +2 Path to Exile, +2 Deed

G2: No land, I mull to 6 and keep a 1-lander with Path and Top. Draw nothing. Die.

Round 4: 4 Color Control UWGB

G1: This played a bit like a mirror match. He used Knights, I use Knights. He just barely splashed black for Maelstrom Pulse and maybe SB. The main difference was he had counters and I had discard. Luckily discard won and after a long drawn out match, I won.

Board: -2 Deeds, +2 Paths (I'm not sure if this was the right move. I'm thinking now that I should have boarded out Vindicate in favor of +2 Deeds, +2 Path. He ran a whole lot of mana dorks, so keeping him off colors was next to impossible and the Deeds would have been nice to clear a path for my dudes.)

G2: It's down to the wire. We are both around 5 life. He has the board clogged up with lot's of Nobles and Birds. I make two bad plays. I Vindicate his Trygon Predator for fear of losing my 2 Mox Diamonds (I only have 2 Mox and 1 land). I should have Vindicated his Knight and forced him to block my Knight with one of his dorks. And a couple turns later I play a second Knight and then during his next end step, I forget that I only have one active Knight. I fetch a Bayou, he fetches a Wasteland and I'm down to 2 mana. He ends up winning with his Exalted Birds of Paradise. LAME. We draw.

I make top 8 (7th place).

Quater: The same dude with Affinity. My chance to reclaim lost honor!

G1: He plays. T1 Mox Diamond, Thoughtseize his Ravager, Wasteland his land. T2 play Goyf. T3 drop a dirty Deed. Ride to victory.

Board: -4 Dark Confidant, +2 Deed, +2 Path

G2: I mull once and keep a hand with Thoughtseize and 2 Paths. I Thoughtseize and see 2 Masters of Etherium and junk. I toss his Cranial Plate. He plays Master, I Path. He plays Master again. I Path. Sweet revenge. Screw you, Affinity.

Semi: Enchantress (In my opinion its a really easy MU, but he said that he played 2 other Rock decks that day and won. They weren't running Diamonds though, so maybe that did them in?)

G1: I play, Diamond and fetch into baby Goyf. He plays forest and Wild Growths it. My turn, I Vindicate the Forest. Ouch. I end up playing not one, but two more Goyfs and swinging in for great Justice. I'm not overly familiar with Enchantress, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe they have any way to punish us for over-extending. I'd like to know for sure though, if someone knows. <3

Board: -4 Swords, -2 Vindicate, +4 Extirpate, +2 Deed

G2: He fetches a forest and Wild Growth. I play Wasteland, Diamond, and Goyf. Dejavu. He plays Enchantress's presence I believe. I Extirpate his Windswept Heath, look at his hand and see a lot of white cards and no white sources, bwa ha ha. I swing with Goyf a couple times before I drop a Deed, blow it up for 3, play another Goyf and a Knight and win.

I end up splitting top 2 and using the prize support to get a Wasteland. Not bad.

I also have somewhat of an open slot in my SB. I'm trying to decide first off if I'd like a 2nd Elspeth or a Bojuka Bog better. I've never used the Bog, but I can see how it could be amazing against decks also running Knights.

I'm leaning towards the Bog, but I'm trying to decide my SBing plan for it. Against decks where I wouldn't need Karakas, I could potentially board out Karakas for the Bog. However, this would be adding a cipt land for a normal land, potentially slowing me down quite a bit. Alternatively, I could simply add the Bog and run with 61 cards. I figure that since I would be tutoring up the Bog anyways, it wouldn't make the deck much less optimal and I would still be running with the same number of normal untapped lands. Anyways, I'd like your thoughts. :)

[OuterCrow]

3 more top 16 places for Dark Horizons/The Rock at the SCG Boston Legacy event...
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/20450_Live_Coverage_of_StarCityGamescom_Open_Series_Boston.html

[Dzra]

Dark Horizons might be deserving a Deck to Beat slot pretty soon. ;)

[AggroSteve]

that would be awesome^^, but who called this Rockvariant Dark Horizons?, kinda like it

@ Dzra, i got to wonder a bit about your boarding against affinity, why were you taking out confidants over discard?, i would have done the other way, simply because they can empty their hands pretty fast, and that way discard will not help you at all

[sdematt]

The guy playing Dark Horizons for 8th place is apparently played 5 Engineered Explosives (1 Main, 4 Side). I think they mean Engineered Plague for the side.

But still, good job!

-Matt

[Bokonon]

I dunno, I actually really don't like the whole "Dark Horizons" moniker. Yeah, sure, the deck has >some< similarities to New Horizons (mostly, honestly, just a KotR mid-late game plan). However, the name seems to miss the whole reason Dave Price called that deck New Horizons - its namesake card Horizon Canopy. GWB Junk/Rock/whatever name people settle on doesn't need the KotR+Canopy plan for late game CA - this deck already has great CA with Confidant and 2-for-1's like Hymn. It just seems like the name Dark Horizons was tossed onto this deck without any real understanding of why the earlier not-all-that-similar deck was called "Horizons" in the first place. It's like someone went "Ooh! KotR! It's like New Horizons! I'll call it Dark Horizons!"

I tend to refer to the deck as Junk, but at least The Rock is understandable (if not necessarily accurate - I don't think there is any one card in the deck that is really "The Rock" like in most older rock variants, but KotR comes close). I honestly just wish the writers and deck listers at SCG et al would settle on one name, even if it does end up being Dark Horizons. The lists for the last few SCG top 16s have been a mix of all three (in Nashville results they list the deck as Rock, in Charlotte the 4th and 5th place lists are "Dark Horizons" while the 12th place, with a very similar list, is "Junk," and in Boston it was just "Dark Horizons). Come on SCG, at least be consistent!

[Dzra]

I started using the name "Dark Horizons" a few weeks before it ever stuck really. My earliest version of the deck ran Terravores and I was toying with the idea of Sinkhole. My thinking was that the deck had almost the exact gameplan of New Horizons: keep them off their mana then drop a fatty. New Horizons gains tempo by using Stifle/Wasteland. Dark Horizons uses Vindicate/Wasteland. Both decks utilize KotR as both a finisher and a toolbox (to fetch Wastelands in particular). Despite the name, Dark Horizons doesn't actually need Horizon Canopy. We already generate massive CA from Hymns, Verdicts, and Dark Confidants. The main difference between the two decks is a Counter Suite VS a Discard Package. And personally, I'd rather be packing the Package. ;)

[Bokonon]

I totally understand that the gameplans are similar. I guess it just feels awkward to me giving the deck a name with a reference to a card the deck doesn't even play. ::shrugs:: I totally see where you're coming from though, especially with your earlier version toting Terravore. At least if our friends at SCG can decide on one thing to call the deck I'll be happy. Heh.

[SpikeyMikey]

I just can't make myself like packing all the Hymn effects. The issue is, they're dead late game. If you've got Top and mana, you can kind of pick around them, but they're still decreasing your options. The format is too tight to handle having potentially dead cards in hand. In 1998, having a pair of dead cards is usually fine. In 2010, we've got nasty threats like KotR and SotF which say "Kill me before I get an untap or I will make you effing sorry!". I realize that the 2-for-1 is essentially doing the reverse in the early game, but I'd rather play more cautiously and try and pick up advantage in the tempo department and wait for my opponent to draw dead to get ahead.

[schniggaz]

I do also not like dead cards in the late game, so I cut all the discard- effects and added strong cards on it's own, like Elspeth, Witness (incredible with Volrath's Stronghold), Explosives and Loam. No deed in the deck, just because I don't like shooting my Mox Diamonds away, but perhaps I should add it to the sideboard.
I'm not sure if it's the right choice to play no discard. Luckily in my meta there isn't much Combo or VV-Survival :)

I played 3 tournaments with the following list going 5-1, 4-1 and 4-1. It works pretty well.

Here is my list:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Vindicate
2 Life from the Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mox Diamond
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Barren Moor
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Plains
1 Forest

Sideboard:

4 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Krosan Grip
3 Ethersworn Canonist


@ Aggro-Steve: I'm from south germany, but there are still 350 km between us :(

[AggroSteve]

sucks, i really hoped i would find someone who could tell me where, when,... are some legacy tournaments maybe around münchen (do not know how to write the citys name in english, maybe munich), and i obviously would need some people that can show me how to get there, etc.


btw. @ schniggaz, your list seems rather intresting, specially if your meta has no combo or vengevine-survival-decks in it. in that case i was wondering what decks are the prevalent decks in your meta

either way i can definitely approve of elspeth, knight errand as a cardchoice, even i would love to fit him/her in my list at least as a 1-of, but i simply have no space for her, and i am allready running 61 cards so i could fit in a 2nd deed main and 2 in the sideboard (and i definitlely love the second deed main)

[Dzra]

I understand that discard effects feel like they can end up being dead draws on paper, but trust me, the deck really works better for it. Your argument is that we need more late game powerhouse spells (like Witness, Elspeth, etc) so that we can deal with their big threats. My argument is that we need discard to keep them from ever getting to those threats in the first place. The deck is built around CA and tempo. We use discard early to gain CA. Then we use Dark Confidant and Pernicious Deed mid-to-late game to gain CA.

Speaking of Deed... I used to not run Pernicious Deed for the exact same reason: I didn't want to blow my Mox Diamonds. However, someone a page or two back said it well: If you blow a Deed, who cares about losing your Diamond? They just lost 2-4, sometimes more permanents. Diamonds are only used to accelerate us to the midgame faster. Once we are there, who cares? We don't really need more than 3 mana to do what we want. Diamonds are only good for playing 2cmc spells t1 and 3cmc spells t2 (maybe the occasional t3 Elspeth), but after that, pitch the Diamonds, why care?

The problem with leaving out discard or Deeds is that you are putting a big hole in one stage of the game. If you leave out discard then we are sitting ducks until t3-4. If you leave out Deeds, then you have a hole in your mid-late game. One-for-oneing when they have Survival or Vial out probably isn't going to cut it anymore. If you leave out discard, you are making the bet that you will have a stronger endgame against your opponent. The problem is that that isn't the case a lot of the time. Burn/Sligh/Zoo will topdeck a burn spell and kill you (early discard will help keep you out of bolt range as these decks are all weak in the CA department), Combo will have already gone off, and full control decks were hoping for the late game anyways.

[SpikeyMikey]

I'm not a sitting duck early. My T1/T2 are weaker than a deck that can drop Condfidant or Hymn on turn 1, but with 3 Diamonds, you have a 1/20 chance of seeing one on any given card. That's about 35% chance of having one for your opening. Given that it weakens your mid and late game with dead draws, I don't think it's worth it. But I said that back at GP Chicago when the Rock list that made T8 or T16, whatever it was ran Diamonds. If you get lucky, they work well, but I don't want to rely on being lucky.

Hymn is a similar story. You can put someone off their hand, especially one turn 1 if you can hit their mana. If you're lucky. But it doesn't stop a topdecked KotR. It doesn't stop topdecked Hierarch Survivaled into Vine, Vine, Walla, Walla. I'd rather answer the permanents. Generally, you gain a little tempo doing it and worst case scenario you're 1-for-1. Eventually, running a tighter decklist (and SDT or Confidant) means that they draw dead and you don't and you get ahead then.

But I guess it depends on your playstyle. I'd rather play conservatively and try to minimize bad draws and hands that I have to mull.

[AggroSteve]

i think what Dzra wanted to tell you is simply that the discard-package is somewhat like "deal with eventual threats before they even get to become one"

i played for a long time a controlish rock-list, going for 1-for-1-trades the whole time,.... it works yes, but i always felt like lacking in CA because it was allways me who had to answer their threats, with the 2-for-1 discarder its a totally different story because they will lose or a threat or an answer to my threats before they will be able to play it, and this is awesome

and what you may find funny, compared to my previous list, the only thing i lost in maindeck of my boardcontrol-suite is a single deed, not more, but now since i am the more aggressive deck i am able to choose when the deed will blow up, not like when i used the controlish build (that time i eas allways desperately searching deeds with fetch and top, so i could sweep the board clear so i would not die)

the only relevant thing that changed between my list now with discard, and my previous list is that, i do not need the kitchen finks and witnesses any more to save my ass, because the discard package is doing that allready

and for your main argument of minimizing bad draws....... well there is a reason allmost every rock-list is playing divining tops as a 3-of or even as 4-of, that way you will never have bad draws

PS: excuse my bad english for now (if it was bad, i don't know), i just got up from bed and i still got a little hangover from yesterday

[ZeinVoncy]

Long time reader here, since Legacy seems to be slow no matter what forum I go to, this one seems to be the busiest. As a long time avid fan of Rock variants, I'd like to either help others with my experiences and points of views as well as I receive direct information from others as well. I have been tinkering with my current build for over a year after dismantling my Vintage Turboland deck just for the fact that I cannot find Vintage tournaments anywheres, and Legacy is growing. So w/o further adu:

Junk Rock: 60
Creatures: 18
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Dark Confidant
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Eternal Witness
2x Doran, the Siege Tower
3x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Desolation Angel

Sorcery: 12
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Gerrard's Verdict
2x Vindicate
3x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Identity Crisis

Instant: 4
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Extirpate

Artifact: 5
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Enchantment: 1
1x Pernicious Deed

Land: 20
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Stirring Wildwood

S/B:
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Leyline of the Void
1x Extirpate
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Pithing Needle

This is what I remember, though looking at it, it seems short on land even though the most I'd need in a game 7 mana. The curve is relatively low, but I feel is still safe from Countertop based decks (2 being the idle Countertop number).

Creatures:
18 creatures seems a bit high, but I'm a classical rock/aggro player and like it. Creatures are both the threat and an answer. I try to utilize my creatures to their full potential.
Desolation Angel? -I have always liked this card and with KofR, it's generally a game sealer, even w/o the kicker. I could try Armageddon but I'd have to acquire them first. I like land sweeping effect and feel it should be used if using W in a Rock deck. That and I just don't see Sinkholes fitting here.
Only 3x Dark Confidant - have been looking for one for the past few months, would rather not pay $25 for the card and s/h. Working w/ what I have, since I only have 3, I cut the Top count down to 2.
Eternal Witness - Cheap, helpful, can be recurring with Stronghold, can give me answers when needed.
Doran, the Siege Tower - I'm just testing him out, it's a new add to the deck. Could use suggestions in place of him. Land?

Sorcery:
Inquisition of Kozilek - I just dropped Thoughtseize for these. Main reason, I only have 3x Thoughtsieze. Am really unsure if I should drop Identity Crisis and these and add 2x Hymns and the 3x Thoughtsieze. Second reason would be is that between Thoughtseize and Night's Whisper (which I have also recently dropped) I ended up bringing myself into killing range for my opponent. Tried Duress and it just didn't seem to fit.
Gerrad's Verdict - Have been using these for a long time and I like them, but in comparison to Hymn to Tourachs, it's hard to choose.
Maelstrom Pulse - reason one, I have only found 2 of them in the past year (w/o paying an arm and a leg via online) and I think Pulse is a great card.
Identity Crisis - This card is amazing . . . when it's used. This card cripples people. If more explanation is asked for, I can expand.

Instant:
Extirpate - I feel that at least 2 of these should be M/D, they are always useful.

Artifact:
Jitte - The card is a powerhouse. Nuf said I think.
Sword of LaS - Variety is nice, this is a new add to the deck, both of the trigged abilities are helpful, esp. the life gain so I can last a long game. I am trying to get Sword FaI as well to add to the variety.

Enchantment:
Pernicious Deed - It's rock, or at least a variant of one. At least ONE should go in. It's a great answer and shy of being countered, can take care of many annoyances. One should be M/D

Lands:
This needs the most work. What I have works and works well. I'm trying to get 2x Marsh Flats and at least 2x Scrublands, but I do not want to become to reliant on non-basics.
Stirring Wildwood - I never really use this, it's more of a backup thing, could use other advice in place of this.

I really need help on my S/B, I have always been bad with setting up and utilizing my S/B. The biggest issue I've had to deal with is ANT.

Where's the goyf? Main reason, I have none and can't afford to trade for them or buy them. I feel there are other great creatures to utilize in place of goyf.
Mox Diamod? Great card, but late game is useless to me. I have plenty of turn 1, 2 and 3 drops, so I do not feel that I need them. Also, I traded off my only single and cannot afford to get four of them.

So thought's or ideas?

[makochman]

Junk Rock


I think Desolation Angel is too expensive for Legacy. (Which is very sad, considering that the artwork depicts Selenia, Dark Angel) Also, I believe you could replace Gerrard's Verdict with Hymn to Tourach. I consider Gerrard's Verdict a risky card to play in Legacy, since quite a lot of decks will be very happy with you providing them with a discard outlet. Finally, in my opinion 19 land is not enough, you need about 22.

[SpikeyMikey]

I've kind of wanted to run Hierarch. I get a feeling that they'd be good mojo. But I just can't find the room. Late game, they're dead draws. Turn 1, Mox Diamond is better. You wouldn't want to play Hierarch on T2 any more than the Mox, but it doesn't lead to first turn Confidants and Hymns. Once on the board, it's more useful than the mox, but unfortunately, it doesn't fit either Rock plan, really.

Doran is not good enough to make the cut. KotR will always outclass him. So there should at least be a 4th Knight and a 4th Confidant. I know you said they're expensive. You're right. But if you're going to post in Established, money shouldn't be a consideration. That's more for the Casual and Budget section.

Vindicate is almost always better than Pulse if you're running Wasteland. Yes, there will be times you could hit multiple Vengevines or multiple ETW tokens. There will be far more times when 8 LD spells can put someone off a color or slow them enough early game that you can cripple them. Especially if you're going first and opening with Top so that you can smooth draws while savaging their hand and land. Speaking of which, Top is more important in this deck than just a way to avoid damage from Confidant. Top may not draw extra cards, but it prevents dead draws, which is basically the same thing. With a listing as loose as this, there should be 4. I wish I could run 4. I may find room for a 4th one anyway, I just don't know what I could possibly cut from my listing.

You should have either Bojuka Bog or Sejiri Steppe main. Personally, I find Bog more useful. I would also pack Crucibles in board. Some matchups can be won with Wastelock. With Deed and Waste against Affinity, you can wreck their mana. Recurring wastes are good against 43 land. Good against Landstill. Basically Affinity and any deck that isn't racing you G1 is a good matchup to board them in against. Can be very effective against Stax. Stax is bad, but you're slow, and that makes you Stax bait.

I feel that Teeg out of the board is unecessary. A 4th Needle and a 4th Extirpate would be better. Needle is better against Jace and Extirpate is always welcome against storm combo. With CotV on 0, Extirpating a Ritual (Dark or Cabal) can be backbreaking.

[Dzra]

I want Inquisition of Kozilek to be better than it is. Being able to grab 3 and under cmc seems really good, but it doesn't get FoW, NO, big fatty creatures (Emrakul, Iona, etc), Smokestacks, Siege-Gang Commander, and plenty more I'm sure. If you know for a fact that no one is going to play a threatening card with 4+ cmc against you then cool, but if there's even a chance I'll be staring at a Natural Order with my Inquisition, I'd go with Thoughtseize.

[ZeinVoncy]

Turn 1, Mox Diamond is better. You wouldn't want to play Hierarch on T2 any more than the Mox, but it doesn't lead to first turn Confidants and Hymns. Once on the board, it's more useful than the mox, but unfortunately, it doesn't fit either Rock plan, really.

Mox is only helpful turn one/two in comparison to Hierarch is a weak observation. I do not see that being the only reason why I should use Mox over Hierarch. It gives me a potential good turn 1, granted, but aside from beefing my KotR later in game, which Hierarch can also do, it's almost a dead card. It does not interact w/ Deed. I'd have 1 way of getting a Mox back to my hand, if I wanted it at all. I would at least have a few ways to get Hierarch back into my hand if I did use a Deed.


Doran is not good enough to make the cut. KotR will always outclass him. So there should at least be a 4th Knight and a 4th Confidant. I know you said they're expensive. You're right. But if you're going to post in Established, money shouldn't be a consideration. That's more for the Casual and Budget section.

Your right, even though I haven't play tested it, I took out the Dorans and added a 4th KotR, working on the Bob. And yes, I do have a limit when it comes to spending money on cardboard. I work fulltime, go to college fulltime and have a family to take care of, reasons like those shouldn't be reasons that I should go to a Casual/Budget forum for EXPERIENCED advice about a deck that obviously is more then a mere Budget/Casual deck. Just b/c I lack 3-4 semi-expensive cards that don't complete a playset should mean I should I go to a Budget/Casual deck. I thought I came to these forums for good reason . . . moving on.


Top is more important in this deck than just a way to avoid damage from Confidant. Top may not draw extra cards, but it prevents dead draws, which is basically the same thing. With a listing as loose as this, there should be 4. I wish I could run 4. I may find room for a 4th one anyway, I just don't know what I could possibly cut from my listing.

The loose listing is slowly being solidified. I know Top is good, but it is not key stone to the deck. I'll up my count to 3 and work from there on whether I should run a 4th or not. As it is, finding what to cut what for what is getting difficult.


You should have either Bojuka Bog or Sejiri Steppe main. Personally, I find Bog more useful. I would also pack Crucibles in board. Some matchups can be won with Wastelock. With Deed and Waste against Affinity, you can wreck their mana.

Dropped the Wildwood for a Bog, so now I'm running 4 ways to deal with Graveyards M/B. I've tried playing with the Crucible or Life from the Loam setup for recurring Wastes, but found the space was better used otherwise. It's good, but unless I make room from 3 Crucibles, it's too much of a risk to just play 1 and hope I get one early. There are other means in dealing with decks you have mentioned other then waste/lock.


I feel that Teeg out of the board is unecessary. A 4th Needle and a 4th Extirpate would be better. Needle is better against Jace and Extirpate is always welcome against storm combo. With CotV on 0, Extirpating a Ritual (Dark or Cabal) can be backbreaking.

Dropped Teeg though he was mainly in my S/B for Storm decks, as that's my biggest issue. Working to get a 4th Extirpate. With so much graveyard hate, should I just drop Leylines from my S/B or should I still keep them?


I think Desolation Angel is too expensive for Legacy. (Which is very sad, considering that the artwork depicts Selenia, Dark Angel) Also, I believe you could replace Gerrard's Verdict with Hymn to Tourach. I consider Gerrard's Verdict a risky card to play in Legacy, since quite a lot of decks will be very happy with you providing them with a discard outlet.

I'm not sure if I feel the same w/ Desolation Angel being too expensive. 5-7cc is not that hard in Legacy. Would you have any other suggestions as to what I should replaced them with? 2 lands to bring my count to 22? If so, what lands would you choose and why.

Gerrard's Verdict is a good card, Hymn could also be a discard outlet that my opponent could care less about, the biggest difference being is that chances area that I can cast Gerrard's Verdict on turn 2 are higher then Hynm b/c it's not a solid BB. I'm lacking Mox Diamonds and that retrains me from being able to utilize Hymns to their best potential.


I want Inquisition of Kozilek to be better than it is. Being able to grab 3 and under cmc seems really good, but it doesn't get FoW, NO, big fatty creatures (Emrakul, Iona, etc), Smokestacks, Siege-Gang Commander, and plenty more I'm sure. If you know for a fact that no one is going to play a threatening card with 4+ cmc against you then cool, but if there's even a chance I'll be staring at a Natural Order with my Inquisition, I'd go with Thoughtseize.

Yeah, they are nice, but Thoughtseize is just that much better. Added them back and am looking for a 4th to M/D.

[sdematt]

If Inquisition was CMC 4 or under, I'd be playing it over Thoughtseize everytime. Alas, this isn't the case.

-Matt

[SpikeyMikey]

Leylines probably aren't necessary. I main 4 Extirpates and a Bog, I don't bother with my GY hate out of board. Would Leyline be useful against something like Dredge? Probably. But is it worth a slot in my 75? Not really. With the Hierarchs, I would replace Deso's with 1 land and 1 Plow. StP is good ju-ju. Personally, I like having Edict main too, but even with Edicts, I'd never go under 3 StP's.

I completely understand having a limited budget, I'm not implying you're some kind of inferior because you're not spending hundreds of dollars on pieces of cardboard. I sold the last of my stuff off after GP: Chicago. Now I play on MWS or borrow cards maybe once a year for something. And I know that the Budget/Casual forums aren't as good. You don't get as many good people looking there. But at the same time, it is a budgetized version of Rock that we're talking about.

One other thing, in regards to Waste lock. Remember that KotR can compliment the strategy, since he can fetch wastes out of your deck at the expense of duals. And if you've got SDT down, that means you're doing a lot of digging through your library; every turn is a fresh 3 cards to look at. You find things rather quickly that way.

[SpikeyMikey]

So lately, I've been thinking about Dueling Grounds in the board. A lot of Rock variants still pack Plagues for tribal decks, but almost across the board, I think Grounds is better. It's certainly far better against Fish; with at least a dozen Lords in every deck, it's almost impossible now to lock them out of the game with double Plague on Merfolk. It's still somewhat effective against Goblins, but it doesn't stop them from swarming.

With 1 attacker a turn, Goblins does not have a serious threat outside of SGC. Coralhelm is Fish's only real threat with Grounds on the table. We've got enough removal to deal with those threats while just hammering with Goyf or KotR. Especially if you can jump over with Elspeth or swing through with Steppe.

Anyone else have thoughts?

[Dzra]

I like the card a lot in the deck. I chose to run more Paths in the board over it or Plague since Path is nice in the mirror. But Dueling Grounds fits nicely in the deck. It's especially abuseble if you use a lot of exalted guys and with Maze of Ith shenanigans. If you try it out definitely let us know hoe it goes.

[ZeinVoncy]

I like the card a lot in the deck. I chose to run more Paths in the board over it or Plague since Path is nice in the mirror. But Dueling Grounds fits nicely in the deck. It's especially abuseble if you use a lot of exalted guys and with Maze of Ith shenanigans. If you try it out definitely let us know hoe it goes.

I see this as a S/B card, as Dzra said, I would be interested in hearing some results. Bonus for me since I play with Noble Hierarch's M/D and Qasali Pridemage S/B.

[SpikeyMikey]

I don't run Maze, but I may have to jam one in. I'll do some testing against Fish in the morning and get back to you guys.

[sdematt]

@ Spikey:

Jamming in a Maze and going to 61 isn't a big deal with this deck, to be totally honest. I know a ton of people hate it, but you've got a search engine and the proper amount of lands anyway, so I wouldn't worry too much.


With regards to dueling grounds, it seems like a good card against the horde, especially with Maze. Plus, Maze works wonders by allowing you to attack, deal damage, and untap. It's the sex with a 12/12 KoTR.

With regards to Leyline, did you mean of the Void or Sanctity? Sanctity helps your Dredge, Rock/discard mirror, Combo, Jace, Burn, Zoo, and other matchups/hate (ex. Wheel of Sun and Moon or something else that targets you). I'd say it deserves a slot in the 75. If you were referring to Void, then it depends on your metagame. If you have all Dredge/Angry Salad Survival in your metagame, playing 4 Pate, 1 Bog and 4 Leyline isn't a terrible idea.

-Matt

[Magicsk8ngenius]

@ Spikey:

Jamming in a Maze and going to 61 isn't a big deal with this deck, to be totally honest. I know a ton of people hate it, but you've got a search engine and the proper amount of lands anyway, so I wouldn't worry too much.


With regards to dueling grounds, it seems like a good card against the horde, especially with Maze. Plus, Maze works wonders by allowing you to attack, deal damage, and untap. It's the sex with a 12/12 KoTR.

With regards to Leyline, did you mean of the Void or Sanctity? Sanctity helps your Dredge, Rock/discard mirror, Combo, Jace, Burn, Zoo, and other matchups/hate (ex. Wheel of Sun and Moon or something else that targets you). I'd say it deserves a slot in the 75. If you were referring to Void, then it depends on your metagame. If you have all Dredge/Angry Salad Survival in your metagame, playing 4 Pate, 1 Bog and 4 Leyline isn't a terrible idea.

-Matt


Also leyline of Sanctity is good vs. Tendrils. I think 4x extirpate and 1 bojuka bog in the 75 is enough against any graveyard deck. Adding any amount of leyline of the void just seems like complete overkill.



Anyways I've been running to problems lately with the fast zoo decks. It seems like I am just entirely too slow. I used to run kitchen finks in the sideboard when zoo was big but it never really seemed to cut it. I'm not talking about big zoo decks as those are much easier because I can stabilize before they kill me. The problem I run into is the steppe lynx/heavy burn kill you asap zoo deck. I think the two best answers here is kitchen finks/loxodon hierarch. I haven't tried the loxodon but it seems like this might be a bit better than the finks, the only problem is getting to 4 mana. He's the list I run:

4 bob
4 kotr
4 tarm

4 stp
4 hymn
4 thoughtseize
2 gerard's verdict
3 vindicate

2 EE
3 Mox Diamond
3 Top

23 lands which include
1 bojuka bog
1 maze of ith
4 wastelands
1 horizon canopy
6 fetches
4 marsh flats
2 verdant catacombs
3 basics
2 swamp
1 plains
7 duals
3 bayou
3 scrubland
1 savanah

Sideboard:

2 Ghastly Demise
3 Extirpate
3 pithing needle
1 tabernacle
2 deed
4 kitchen finks



Two demise come in and yes they work quite well vs. zoo. Also the 4 finks come in but it seems like not enough still. Usually take out 4 bob and 2 thoughtseize. Any helpful hints/suggestions?

[f|i[p]]

@magicsk8ngenius

I have been playing with a list similar to yours and I have been very impressed. Only difference is that I play 1 deed and 1 EE. and a 4th vindicate since I run 61 cards in my list. I still can't decide if I should stay 2 P.deed or 2 EE so I split them, to see which one is actually more usefu in my testl.

Regarding your zoo match up, if kitchen finks and ghastly demise doesn't work. I guess you are just terribly unlucky against them. I mean 4 finks and 2 demise out of the sb. I think its already quite overkill, having 2 EE 4 stp 3 vindicates 2 ghastly 4 kitchen finks. Perhaps you can also hold on to your gerrards verdicts and your extra lands if you don't need them. If those burn or zoo decks throw out their hands fast enough, verdict will be useless late game.So hold on to your gerrards verdicts and use it on yourself. Also, stp can be used to KotR if your in soo much trouble which should gain you around 8-10 life.

White has a lot to offer as traditional anti burn cards.


I am still contemplating with mox D. vs birds/noble. Birds and noble can block and offer exalted, but Mox d offers 1st turn sheenigans.1st turn noble or birds usually get killed now a days. im not saying thats bad, but it can break your deck if your looking for the 3rd mana which is very very very important for the deck.

[SpikeyMikey]

I would agree with you that Hierarch is better. Paying 3 for a guy that will almost never trade straight up for a creature is rough. Beating Cat Sligh is about removing their creatures early and overmatching them later. Early game, their removal is as strong as yours and cheaper. Much like there is a massive difference between a 2 power creature and a 3 power creature, the difference between 1 or 2 mana and 3 for Vindicate is huge. A turn you Vindicate something or drop Deed is a turn you're doing nothing else. At the same time, the difference between 3 mana and 4 is relatively minor. Either way, you're likely not doing anything else that turn, but Hierarch gives you the full 4 up front, can't be Mancered out and will do better than trade with Nacatl in combat. He might even be able to stare down a goyf.

Boarding out Thoughtseize is good, but I think you leave Bob in and board out Vindicate instead. Cat Sligh has few troublesome permanents that are worth the 3 mana investment. Bob on the other hand will quite likely soak a burn spell early and late, you've either stabalized or they were going to kill you anyway. But the real key is having extra spot removal in the board. You should have at least a pair of edicts board anyway to deal with NO Pro or Emrakul anyway. I run 3 Plow and 3 Edict main with the 4th Plow in board. Or run CoP: Red, which also handily deals with Progenitus.

The other thing that I find useful against burn heavy decks is Extirpate. Sometimes you get lucky and strip another burn out of their hand but mostly, lowering their threat density can be huge. I remember when Haunting Echoes was still playable how backbreaking it could be for my Sligh deck when it hit 2 or 3 burn spells. They play their hands out quickly so Hymn and Verdict become dead quickly (although you can Verdict yourself for life in a pinch).

My suggestion is -3 Vindicate, -4 seize, -2 Hymn and +2 Demise, +3 Extirpate and +4 Finks (prefer Hierarch).

[Magicsk8ngenius]

Thanks for your suggestions, these should help with my zoo mu and i think you're right in keeping in the bobs. I've gone back and forth on whether playing EE or deed is better. Right now I'm playing with EE because people still play counterbalance in my meta (guess they never got the memo that deck isn't very good anymore) which tends to be a pain in the a$$ when they get a 2 and a 3 on top. EE gets through this problem and is usually a bit faster against zoo and other decks. Though I can see going with deed also.

[Dzra]

Previously for Zoo I've done: -4 Thoughtseize, +4 Path/Edict

With my new SB, I think I'll try something like -4 Thoughtseize, +4 Paths. (Maybe +2 Deed as well?)

I'm not sure about boarding out Thoughtseize since it can snatch nasty things like PoP, Fireblast, and Goyf... but so far it's worked pretty well for me.

My strategy is basically to keep them off their white mana and to nuke everything they play.

[f|i[p]]

Vs zoo this is what I am currently testing

Ghostly prison and an single e.tutor on the sideboard.

So for my sb this is what I am testing

2 ghostly
1 E.plague
1 Deed
1 E. tutor
3 edict
4 extirpate
1 faeri
1 the tabernacle ----currently being tested
1 free slot either choke ---or another tutorable card or anti control card.

My meta has a lot of survival hence the Extirpates and the single faeri. And we don't have much combo.

Edict for progen and emrakul,show and tell.or nat order decks.

Ghostly prisons which works with our land D. strategy, and tabernacle. Its good for dredge , zoo and any other tribal decks that attacks. Which could also work for show and tell, if we can destroy their lands.

The single E.plague is questionable but since it does wonders against goblins I will leave it till I find something better, maybe dueling grounds or another prison.

Deed : for a good sweeper can be tutored by E.tutor.

I still can't decide between EE and deed maindeck. I am leaning on ee however, since it works better against counter tops and doesn't necessarily break your mox. However, deed is the better sweeper .... Have to test some more...

[ZeinVoncy]

Is there a reason for most decisions to use Path in s/b? I personally don't like the card b/c of the mana acceleration it gives my opponents. With StP m/d, wouldn't edict be the better choice? Please enlighten me and tell me what I'm missing.
I understand Legacy uses mostly nonbasic, but smart players should always have a few basics.

As to the Deed vs EE, I find that more players have a way of dealing w/ artifacts instead of enchantments. Both are great control cards, but after using both, I find the deed to be the better. But as someone stated, its entirely dependent on your meta.