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citanul
10-30-2008, 03:39 PM
Table of Content:

1) Introduction
2) The Rock?
3) Build: Agro vs. Control
3.1) Control
3.2) Agro
4) Why and when to play The Rock?
5) Decklist
5.1) Standard List
5.2) Remaining cards
5.3) My list ‘TopRock’
6) Match-ups

1) Introduction:

The old thread about this archetype, The Rock, is rather outdated. The original post from that thread was from 09-02-2005, not including the white splash we all seem to run these days. If you do wish to look into the history of the building, the discussions being done there or just bored and want to read more it can be found at http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=728.

Since that thread is outdated I planned on writing a new one, hoping to put the spotlight back onto an archetype all known to us. I wouldn’t do such a thing without the approval of an almighty Admin so I waited to post this until the liberating Private Message came: “I'm fine with you starting a new thread”.

To write such an important opening post, one needs to have some experience with the deck itself so I’ll explain a bit why I feel I might be able to. When Tarmogoyf got printed I planned on building myself The Rock. I had played it before, in the days that I still was a bad player. Me and my team started working, making changes after every tournament to make the deck optimal. The last 7 tournaments I have played over the past six months I have Top8’ed 4 times and ended 9th once (player count lower than 30 not included). It’s been performing so well that the deck has gotten the DtB status on Benelegacy.nl, a forum for the Belgium and Netherlands metagame.

Of course, I am not an all knowing Guru. In case you have an idea to add to this post or just find something blatantly wrong, feel free to PM me about it.


2) The Rock?

This deck is considered a hybrid between Agro and Board Control. I’ll let the explanation of the origin from The Rock to Frank Karsten in his article: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/fk30



The origin of this name is a G/B deck featuring Phyrexian Plaguelord and Deranged Hermit, originally made by Jelger Wiegersma many, many years ago for Urza Block Constructed PTQs. It was plucked from the internet by Sol Malka, who tuned and popularized it and named the deck “The Rock and its Millions”. Jeroen Remie (the world’s most renowned rock expert) explained that this name came from a WWE wrestler named The Rock (he later became an actor). His special gimmick was that he channeled the power of all of his fans, so that was The Rock and his Millions. In terms of the Magic deck that borrowed the name, The Rock refers to Phyrexian Plaguelord and his Millions, which refers to Deranged Hermit. People then played this “The Rock and its Millions” deck for a long time, and the “Rock” part of that name stuck even after the namesake cards were removed. People started associating “Rock” with any mid-range Green/Black deck, not just the Phyrexian Plaguelord version. And over the course of the years, “Rock” has become a synonym for any Green/Black mid-range deck.


Since then the deck has evolved a lot with every new set bringing better cards to play with. It has now become GBW with only a limited amount of cards still the same as the original lists.

3) Build: Agro vs. Control

There are a lot of different lists for the Rock, all having something in common. The used categories to divide these lists are Agro and Control. The lists differ so much that even the game plan and sometimes the way to achieve victory is different. I’ll be talking about the categories, what their upsides/downsides are and the eventual way of winning.
The thing we all strive for is to make a hybrid between a Control and an Agro build, making it a deck with a great early, mid and late game.

3.1) Control

Control uses bigger mana spells. To be able to cast such big spells a lot of mana acceleration is needed. Most commonly used cards for this are Birds of Paradise, Sakura-Tribe Elder and to a lesser extend Veteran Explorer, Yavimaya Elder. Having a higher curve also means they’ll be taking longer to gain control over the board, to get to that point they have to play ways to slow down the opponent. This is usually done with multi-use creatures and extra hand disruption.

The general game plan for a control build is to gain card advantage over the opponent while playing several cards that are of better quality than the opponent. Sort of a mix of quantity and quality. A great example for this is Pernicious Deed. Not only can it generate lots of card advantage, it’s also able to deal with the best cards of your opponent. After achieving such card advantage with a good board position they drop a big creature to finish the game.

Thanks to playing more main deck hand disruption like Cabal Therapy the combo match up is better. Trying to generate more card advantage does several things. The most important is getting enough answers to disrupt or even stop your opponents game plan. The other one is that the deck is more forgiving towards play errors, supplying you with another a new answer anyway.

Cards you’ll find in most control but not plenty of agro lists:
Loxodon Hierarch, Cabal Therapy, Wall of Blossoms, Living Wish, Genesis.

3.2) Agro

Agro has grown from the control build with time, taking several key cards, removing the rest to add undercosted creatures. The result are decks that can apply fast pressure, combining it with spot removal to clear a path but also a deck that has a decent mid/late game. The cards that are usually removed are big mana spells, hand disruption and mana accelerators. But these big spells are usually the way that Rock generates card advantage resulting in agro builds having less ways to do so.

To combat the loss of this ability agro builds try to make every card they draw a good card, often losing some flexibility in the process. The trick in these builds is making every card have a use in a broad variety of matches and during every part of the game. Vindicate is a perfect example of this although it’s not unique to agro builds. Vindicate can kill any targetable permanent in play (except indestructible) making it a card that can adapt to different game plans.

The biggest advantage of an agro build is giving your opponent little time to (re)build his board. Other agro decks like Zoo also does this but agro Rock has a better mid/late game.
Agro mainly focuses on controlling the board, making match ups revolving around non-permanents worse than before.

Cards you’ll find in most agro but not plenty of control lists:
Jotun Grunt, Call of the Herd, Hymn to Tourach

4) Why and when to play The Rock?

The deck is a hybrid, more versatile than other hybrids. This makes the deck strong against a variated metagame. The strength of this deck lies in the ability to have a winning chance against as many decks possible. At the same time that’s the weakness of the deck. To be able to win against a broad amount of decks it has to sacrifice a bit against others, that might have been an auto-win. This means that the deck needs a practiced pilot to perform well and that a few mistakes, as small as they may be, can cost you games.

The best metagame to play The Rock is in a metagame dominated by Agro-Control. I never managed to realise why this is. If you look at the new and upcoming agro-control deck DreadStill and read that topic you’ll notice they have listed The Rock as a bad match up for them. Treshhold is agro-control, also a decent match up.
Bad match ups are decks that run direct damage or combo. The reason for this is that they have no board to control. When you know that your metagame has these decks in a numerous amount I wouldn’t advice playing The Rock unless you heavily adjust your deck.

Eventually Rock grows on you. It has a special way of playing while interacting with your opponent, giving you a great feeling of achievement when winning after lots of decision making. After you fell in love with The Rock (not the Wrestler/actor!) you’ll start playing it even when you shouldn’t. I feel that I have become such a person. While trying to find other decks to play with they always feel worse. Might just be me.

5) Decklist

Since there are many variations between lists it will be hard to give one list. I’ll be posting a list with cards being used 99% of the time while leaving some slots open. Afterwards there will be a list of possible cards to run (see 4.2) in those slots followed by the decklist being used by me at this current moment.

5.1) Standard list:

Land: (22-23)
5-8 Fetchland
6-8 Duals
3-4 Wasteland
3-6 Basics
1-2 Volrath’s Stronghold

Creatures: (10-11)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2-3 Tombstalker

Instant/Sorcery: (11-12)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3-4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize

Artifact/Enchantment: (5-8)
3-4 Pernicious Deed
2-4 Sensei’s Divining Top

5.2) Remaining cards:

Creatures:

Jotun Grunt: A great card to run. It’s a 4/4 for 1W allowing you to slow down your opponents beatdown or applying fast pressure yourself. It’s cumulative upkeep is often used as graveyard hate or to restock your deck with cards already used. Usually being played with a maximum of 3.

Doran, the Siege Tower: Basicly a 5/5 for 3 mana. The problem with this creature lies within the triple coloured mana. List running Birds of Paradise can support this with more ease. Tombstalker tends to get the preference over this Elemental.

Eternal Witness: This creature is more fitting in a control Rock, returning the good cards back to your hand after already having used them. Great synergy with Volrath’s Stronghold.

Genesis: This card has been a staple for a long time, partially being one of the best cards in the deck. The card has to be in the graveyard to work as you desire. If you have ways of doing this it might be wise to play one.

Birds of Paradise: Is used to speed out your bigger cards to gain control over the board faster. Often being sacrificed to Cabal Therapy before blowing everything up with Pernicious Deed. With the printing of big creatures for a low casting cost this card has been cut from many lists.

Sakura-Tribe Elder: Barely sees play anymore. Before the printing of Tarmogoyf with the dominance of Goblins this card was used to stop an attacker while grabbing you extra land.

Shriekmaw: Replaces Smother in some lists. It has synergy with Volrath’s Stronghold while being a 3/2 body later in the game with some evasion. Also allows to play around Counterbalance. This can hurt with Dark Confidant and isn’t able to kill Artifact or Black creatures.

Kitchen Finks: The persist is what makes this card worth playing. Gaining you 4 life while generating a form of card advantage. You can chump block with it twice, sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy and let it live through some removal. Often found in a more control build.

Loxodon Hierarch: When Rock started using white as a third color this card replaced Ravenous Baloth. For almost the same mana cost you get the same effect but faster. Regenerating all your creatures can be considered a bonus. When compared to Tarmogoyf, the P/T of this card is bad for it’s casting cost. Played in control build.

Troll Ascetic: Can’t be targeted by your opponent while having the ability to regenerate. A hard creature to get rid of is the least you can say. A weak body compared to other options available. Can either be played in control or agro build but barely sees play these days. Keeping 1G open all the time doesn’t feel good to most players.

Wall of Blossoms: Basicly a cantrip that stops an attacker. This card has been in lists since the existence of Rock. If you want to have a better match against agro you should consider this. Tarmogoyfs tend to trump Wall of Blossoms but that doesn’t mean there won’t be other cards to block.

Veteran Explorer: Now that most metagames have shifted to playing several basics this card has gotten the axe. It was used to gain fast mana to cast bigger creatures than the opponent. Was also a great creature to sacrifice to a Cabal Therapy.

Gigapede: Just like Troll Ascetic, this is a hard card to get rid of. Having a power of 6 it kills as good as every creature to see play. The 1 toughness makes it very weak, often just resulting in trades. That’s where the second part comes in handy, this one returns to your hand if you only discard a card. Due to this being a strain on your mana it mostly sees play in control builds.

Removal:

Smother: Kills almost any creature present in Legacy for 1B at instant speed. Lists that don’t play Shriekmaw tend to play Smother.

Diabolic Edict: Usually played in older lists. Preference goes to removal where you can choose what will die.

Engineered Explosives: An extra board sweeper alongside Pernicious Deed. Used to play around Counterbalance. Also able to kill a bunch of tokens on turn2 where Deed would only do it on turn3.

Discard:

Duress: Is a card of preference. Some play this to have more selection discard alongside Thoughtseize or just replace Thoughtseize completely.

Hymn to Tourach: Extra discard. A commonly used form of card advantage. The double black in it’s casting costs while begging to be cast early in the game forces your deck to run more black.

Cabal Therapy: Since the arrival of Thoughtseize this does not see much play. The cutting of Birds of Paradise also played a role.

Raven’s Crime: When combined with Life from the Loam this card can be a powerhouse. Also an outlet for excess land.

Utility:

Life from the Loam: Since Rock is a Board Control deck it tends to require lots of mana, Loam makes sure you can get back fetchland, Wasteland or destroyed land. Great in combination with Sensei’s Divining Top to dig for the right cards.

Extirpate: There’s a lot of discussion about this card. Some like it so much they run it maindeck while others won’t even think about running it in the sideboard. Personally I find it either ‘Win More’ or ‘Doesn’t do enough’.

Umezawa’s Jitte: Some people like to play this card to provide themselves with lifegain. This card does improve the match up against decks with direct damage but sacrifices others.

Unearth: Brings back cards that you hoped not to be death. The possibility to cycle this card when it would be useless makes it worth playing.

Living Wish: At the cost of some tempo you can either have a creature/land toolbox at your disposal or grab a kill. This card is mostly played in a control build since agro doesn’t want to spend the extra 2 mana.

Call of the Herd: Before the arrival in the Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance era most lists played this card. It forced the opponents to deal with 2 creatures often giving you card advantage.

Harmonize: A card draw spell in green is pretty Uncommon. Mostly played in control build but several agro lists do run it to keep their threats coming.

Recurring Nightmare: It brings back any creature back from the death if you are willing to sacrifice another. Returning it to your hand makes it reusable as many times as you want/can. In combination with cards that have a CiP effect this Nightmare can generate lots of card advantage.

Worm Harvest: A great finisher against plenty of decks. Combined with Life from the Loam you can keep on Harvesting Wurms. Also a great outlet for excess land.

Land:

Treetop Village: Was used in the old GB lists to start beating after sweeping the board. Coming into play tapped in a much faster Legacy environment proved to be to disadvantageous.

Mishra’s Factory: The current replacement for Treetop Village. 3/3 blocker on turn2 stops lots of deck from fast beats. Great against control decks, often catching the opponents by surprise.

Sideboard:

Your sideboard is dependant on your metagame. I will only provide a list of possibilities. If the card has already been mentioned in the previous part of the listing then I will not give it further explanation.

Krosan Grip: Every green deck plays this card sideboard. Counterbalance seems to be a problem card for The Rock due to the curve being at 1 to 3 mana.

Duress: See Discard.

Extirpate: See Utility.

Thorn of Amethyst: Great against combo such as TES, FT, AdN and more. The first one hitting the table often slows down the opponent long enough to find a second or to do enough damage.

Leyline of the Void: Against graveyard based strategies such as Ichorid and Loam variants. The discussion is between Leyline, Tormod’s Crypt and a newcomer in this battle, Relic of Progenitus.

Tormod’s Crypt: See Leyline of the Void

Relic of Progenitus: See Leyline of the Void

Circle of Protection - Red: Any deck that runs direct damage, be it Burn, Goyf Sligh or Red Treshhold is a bad matchup for Rock. This card is sometimes played to make those matches better.

5.3) My list ‘TopRock’:

You’re probably wondering why it’s called TopRock. The deck (ab)uses Sensei’s Divining Top to find the right cards at the right time. Together with Life from the Loam you can see up to 9 cards every turn if you are desperate to dig. Having come up with this list after an extensive amount of testing we also consider it to be at the ‘top’ of all Rock decks.

Creatures:
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Jotun grunt
3x Shriekmaw
4x Dark Confidant
2x Tombstalker

Artifacts/Enchantments:
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Pernicious Deed

Sorcery/Instant:
4x StP
4x Vindicate
4x Thoughtseize
3x Life from the Loam

Land:
1x Volraths Stronghold
3x Mishra's factory
4x Windswepth Heath
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wasteland
1x Savannah
2x bayou
3x Scrubland
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp

Sideboard:
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Duress
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Krosan Grip

6) Match-ups:

Affinity:
Can be considered as an agro deck. Now with latest additions of Shards of Alar this deck might start to play some counter, mainly Force of Will. Kill the key creatures like Ravager followed by the one they put all those Modular counters on. Master of Etherium might see play as well, if it does, kill it as well since it will be rather big. Ethersworn Cannonist doesn’t slow you down a lot as it does against other decks.

Agro- loam:
This match up differs depending on their build. It gets more difficult when they play a version that runs maindeck removal like Swords to Plowshares or the more common one, Terminate. When they aren’t running any the early/mid game belongs to you. Plenty of removal on your side for their limited amount of creatures while you keep enough damage going or outdraw them with a Confidant. Jotun Grunt is what makes this match up easy. They can’t start drawing cards because they’ll lose either the loam or the lands to your Grunt. The normal strategy is applying as much pressure as you can. Once they do get their engine going for a while you will most likely lose. The chances to live through such card advantage will be hard. In case they play Confidant, make sure you kill it.

Aluren:
It’s a combo deck so play against it like you would against other combo. Find their weakness and exploit it. The deck revolves around Aluren so all you have to do is avoid that hitting play or destroying it when it does hit play. Thoughtseize it away! Once you know they don’t have an Aluren in their hand keep your Thoughtseize behind to play it after a Raven Familiar or any other search card. If they topdeck it, bad luck for you. After sideboard you’ll have Krosan Grip to hit Aluren after it comes into play. Kill it as soon as you get priority. They usually have Cabal Therapy now so don’t rely on it to much unless you can keep one floating on the top of your library with a SDT.

Keeping a Deed on the board in advance is good but not game winning. Once they see this they’ll hold back, find a Chain of Vapor to play at your EOT and then go off. It’s still the right play to do for you since it will buy you time. Remember to keep 4 mana open when you do have a Deed in play.

The third option is trying to keep them of their green mana. They play 3 colours so a lot of non-basic lands. Aim your creature removal at Wall of Roots or Birds of while destroying their green mana with Wasteland/Vindicate. I found this to be the most effective strategy.

Burn:
Sometimes you come across a guy who didn’t prepare, didn’t have much cash or just likes playing straight burn. The trick here is to race it. Goyfs, Grunts, even casting StP on your own creatures. Watch out for taking to much damage from yourself. Fetch to basics to avoid Price of Progress. There’s no need to run out a lot of land anyway, it won’t improve the match. Generally an auto-loss for the Rock player if they don’t run lots of discard.

BWG Rock:
Let’s consider this a mirror. There are lots of different lists and I can’t go over them all. The games will be long, playing creatures, seeing them getting removed or you playing the removal on his creatures. Confidant and SDT are the best cards here. There’s no need to hold back in dropping a creature on the board when you are scared of it being removed. Just make sure you play the bait first. If you have a Tarmogoyf and a Confidant, drop the Goyf first. Also, don’t be dropping multiple creatures unless you are certain they won’t get killed by Deed. The card advantage of that will ruin you.

Your mana development is probably the most important thing in this mirror. Feel free to take a hit from a Tarmogoyf to play a Life from the Loam on some land. This deck has no reach except creatures so stabilising at 1 life can still give you the victory. Also fetch one basic Forest at least, preferable 2 to avoid Vindicate combined with Wasteland. The basic Plains or Swamp isn’t so needed if you have a Life from the Loam. It’s all about little advantages and tight play.

Enchantress:
To be tested.

Eva-green:
For me this deck can be considered the same as Sui black. The only difference is that they splash green for Tarmogoyf with some more sideboard options. The hand disruption is usually bad news, in this case it isn’t. They never seem to manage to put enough pressure on the table to get past the remaining removal still lurking in the remainders of your hand or the top of your library. Fetch for basics, like you should against any deck with Wasteland at the start, build some mana while keeping creatures from attacking you. Once they depleted their hand or it’s filled with useless cards like Dark Ritual you win..

Fish (Fearie Stompy):
To be tested.

Goblins:
About average. Rock plays a lot of removal to survive for a while. Deed isn’t as great here as many will claim because it often arrives to slow. Matron and Ringleader are key cards on their side, try grabbing them with Thoughtseize if you can. Since most goblin decks run 3 colors they have removed Rishidan Port from their list, fetch to basic land whenever you can, kill their biggest threats while dropping some creatures of your own to start beating.

Goyf Sligh:
A bad match up. Not only can they burn you like pure burn does, they also have creatures! The tactic against burn is racing back. In this case you can’t because they have creatures on the board. Dealing with them takes time. I still have to win myself a match during a tournament against this deck.

Ichorid:
Pernicious Deed helps to clean the tokens away if you can ever play it. Jotun Grunt can be good before or right after they went mayhem. After sideboard you should have 4 or more graveyard hate cards, feel free to mulligan madly for these, the rest will follow soon. Make sure to test this match so you know what to do.

MUC:
This hurts big time. Depends on the version but just like standstill this is pure control against Board control. MUC doesn’t attack with lands so no good use of Wasteland. The biggest issue is that their creatures have some evasion. Morphling being the most commonly used just evades every removal bar Deed. Meloku leaves behind a bunch of tokens, use Deed. Vedalken Shackles, Deed or Vindicate. What about Plow?! As good as useless.

Manland are king here, along with Dark Confidant. Try playing the aggressor because mid and late game they’ll have to much control. Drop threats as soon as you can, without running into Force Spike.

Painter’s Servant/Grindstone:
Not yet tested.

Pikula:
This deck doesn’t see much play anymore. Just adding it as a reference in case you do fear it.
The deck is fast hand disruption, some land destruction then drop a threat, winning the game before the opponent can stabilise. Can’t do much to stop the first except dropping a top, drawing the cards instead of holding them. The land destruction is stopped by keeping fetches uncracked until you need it and Loam. Loaming two fetchland back to your hand is usually enough to disrupt that plan from them. As for that threat, if it’s not a Confidant you can let it live, taking the damage for a few turns while you build.

Standstill:
At first I thought this would be a bad match up as well since it’s pure control against board control. Much to my own surprise this doesn’t seem to be true if played well. Card advantage is a key factor here so make sure to bait first before dropping a Confidant. Also, if you decided to play manland try to keep it hidden as long as you can. If you do it at the right time they might have to break their own Standstill. Destroy Crucible of Worlds or pluck it from their hand if you can. Keeping a Deed in play doesn’t allow them to drop Standstill, trapping some useless cards in their hand while stopping them from getting card advantage.

Stax:
Make sure you fetch to basics and keep some land behind combined with a loam to rebuild your board after an Armageddon. Deed kills the board, mainly theirs. In the meanwhile Vindicate kills the most anoying cards. They have no real card advantage so you can win by quality of your cards or just drawing more with a Confidant. Misplays here can cost you the game due to that. I also wouldn’t advice putting more than 4 land in play out of fear for Armageddon. The most troublesome card they have is Magus of the Tabernacle, mainly because it’s a 2/6. When combined with Ghostly Prison you’ll have to pay 6 mana every turn to even get damage through, try to kill Magus instead.

Survival:
Keep in mind that this is a generalisation of Survival, there are several different versions. They all work around one card though, Survival of the Fittest, so it can be considered a combo deck in this aspect. It also strives to be viable when not having a Survival in play, making it an aggressive deck. When you force it to play as a creature deck you have a better chance to win. Their creatures are weaker than yours because theirs all have a specific utility to be tutored up. Keep your removal for those that might pose a problem.

So the goal is to destroy that Survival. You can do this by getting it with a Thoughtseize, leaving them the option to topdeck it. Playing Pernicious Deed in advance is the second best. Sometimes even better than Thoughtseize since no topdecking is saving them. The average list only plays one maybe two creatures to get rid of an enchantment, usually Harmonic Sliver. Vindicate is the third option, being a sorcery this is the worst. They can wait long enough to drop a Survival, get some action going before passing the turn. Also deed has it’s flaws because you will use it in reaction to the first activation of Survival. The problem here is that they can get a Witness to grab their survival back. Grunt can remove their card advantage like Squee, Genesis and Anger

TES/IggyPOP/FetchlandTendrils/Doomsday/AdN:
You lose game1 most of the time. With only a small amount of hand disruption and not enough pressure it’s heavily in their favor. You can win this game when they go for Empty the Warrens and you have a Deed. Game2 is much better if you have a sideboard against combo. Thorn of Amethyst slows them down, often giving you the time to attack enough or finding a second Thorn. Making correct mulligans will win games.

Treshhold:
It depends on the third color. In general it’s a match in your favor once it goes into mid/late game, around 60-40. Against White ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh it’s the easiest to get into mid/late game since their plows will give you some extra life to use as a buffer. Black is also favorable as long as you make sure that no Confidant remains in play. Red ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is the hardest, mostly because they have the ability to burn you even during the late game when their creatures can’t come through. Try and take as few damage as you can as early as you can, even sacrificing creatures. You play to much removal for them to handle eventually.

Their best chance to beat you is Counterbalance. Try keeping track of the cantrips they played, do they know what’s on the top of the library, is it likely for something of 3 to be lying there. Play a Deed in advance since they can’t remove it except Tyragon Predator in some lists. Once they have something of 2 and 3 floating your only option is Tombstalker/Shriekmaw. Manland isn’t good enough to start beating. If you know they have to many counters already alongside those 2 floating on top, just scoop. It’s not worth wasting time here.

On a sidenote, lots of Treshhold players side out Daze after they notice that you keep 1 mana open. Keep that in mind during game2 and 3 that you might not have to slow your own game down to play around Daze.

TheLion
10-30-2008, 07:53 PM
Complaints about a thread should be addressed to a mod via PM.

-PR

It's a pity, that you only focus on the aggro version and on your posted version of the deck. The more controllish version would be more interesting imo, at least deserves mentioning.
What about Loxodon Hierarch, Harmonize, Kitchen Finks, Troll Ascetic, Cabal Therapy/Veteran Explorer interaction, Wall of Blossoms, ... the list goes on. You didn't even mention those cards and synergies.
Cabal Therapy isn't obviously played in an aggro deck.

Generally I think The Rock should focus more on card advantage, synergy and mid-range control, instead of start beating with undercosted 2-mana fatties on turn 2. Unfortunetaly, it tends to be more Zooish then Rockish... (at least your list).

Nice matchup analysis, though I don't get it, why you mention Aluren.

idraleo
10-30-2008, 08:28 PM
Probably in his metagame Aluren is a mu often played. It is in my metagame too, it always have 2 or more player over the entire tournament, someone playing Recruiter, someone not...

chokin
10-30-2008, 10:11 PM
Grunt doesn't play nice with Goyf or Tombstalker. Stalker doesn't play nice with Goyf and Grunt. I'd possibly consider other beats. Loam helps to alleviate this, but I think that Grunt is still very meh.

Deeds with Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Grunt lacks synergy.

Dark Confidant with Stalker also don't play nice even if you play Top which seems lame to do anyways.

I think focusing a direction with this version of The Rock will help you out a lot. Either use Confidant, Goyf, Ascetic/Finks and maybe Teeg orgo for a big fatty list with stuff like BoP (to ramp mana), Stalker, Heirarch/Baloth, and maybe Garruk.

I think that Witness and Garruk deserve consideration. Basically, I think that you'll be happier having a more synergistic deck whether you go for a heavy control with big beats or a more aggro build.

THEchubbymuffin
10-30-2008, 11:25 PM
What ever happened to Veteran Explorers? People are playing less and less basics which makes it good.

chokin
10-30-2008, 11:35 PM
What ever happened to Veteran Explorers? People are playing less and less basics which makes it good.

I thought that MORE basics were being played due to the popularity of Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon. Maybe I'm wrong. VE has more synergy than BoP with blocking and with Deeds. Only problem is that it can really suck against some decks more than it helps you. Against some decks, it doesn't do anything, against others, it is a one sided free 2 lands. In the OP's post, he only runs 4 basics, so that'd suck, but if you were to include it, I'd imagine you'd change your lands.

citanul
10-31-2008, 04:05 AM
It's a pity, that you only focus on the aggro version and on your posted version of the deck. The more controllish version would be more interesting imo, at least deserves mentioning.
What about Loxodon Hierarch, Harmonize, Kitchen Finks, Troll Ascetic, Cabal Therapy/Veteran Explorer interaction, Wall of Blossoms, ... the list goes on. You didn't even mention those cards and synergies.
Cabal Therapy isn't obviously played in an aggro deck.


I am only human and might have missed cards or not written parts that might have been important. That’s why at the start of the post I say:
“Of course, I am not an all knowing Guru. In case you have an idea to add to this post or just find something blatantly wrong, feel free to PM me about it.”

I’ll make sure to add those cards under point 4.2 and see what I can do for control rock, maybe add a separate part for it.



Generally I think The Rock should focus more on card advantage, synergy and mid-range control, instead of start beating with undercosted 2-mana fatties on turn 2. Unfortunetaly, it tends to be more Zooish then Rockish... (at least your list).


That’s more of a discussion of agro vs control build. We found that the important turn in Legacy is one turn earlier than it used to be. Therefore we made sure the presence of The Rock was already being felt in those early turns instead of just using them to ramp up mana with utility creatures. You’ll have a better match up against control decks with a control Rock at the expense of your agro match up.



Nice matchup analysis, though I don't get it, why you mention Aluren.


As Idraleo has said, it’s played in my metagame. I also added decks not being played here just for reference. Again, if you feel a certain part is missing or obsolete, just PM me about it.



Even though the list seems to have a lot of bad synergies it runs like a well oiled machine. All of the bad synergies you mentioned are true but not so relevant. I’ll be splitting your response up in If you have a Grunt and a Tarmogoyf in play at the same time you can still keep the Tarmogoyf big. It only needs 1 card of a type in any graveyard while you decide which cards go away with Grunt or when to let him die.

Grunt doesn't play nice with Goyf or Tombstalker. Stalker doesn't play nice with Goyf and Grunt. I'd possibly consider other beats. Loam helps to alleviate this, but I think that Grunt is still very meh.

Deeds with Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Grunt lacks synergy.

Dark Confidant with Stalker also don't play nice even if you play Top which seems lame to do anyways.


Even though the list seems to have a lot of bad synergies it runs like a well oiled machine. All of the bad synergies you mentioned are true but not so relevant. I’ll be splitting your response up in If you have a Grunt and a Tarmogoyf in play at the same time you can still keep the Tarmogoyf big. It only needs 1 card of a type in any graveyard while you decide which cards go away with Grunt or when to let him die. The same goes for Tombstalker, if you have one in your hand while wanting to play it you shouldn’t let the Grunt live.

I agree on Dark Confidant being bad if you reveal a Tombstalker, I get that remark a lot. I even play 3 Shriekmaw over Smother while it would do me 3 extra damage. Yet out of all the tournament matches I played I have only died from Confidant doing me damage once. That specific match was against Goyf Sligh and I revealed a Tarmogoyf.



even if you play Top which seems lame to do anyways.


There’s a reason we called it TopRock, that card is just insane. Rock barely has any form of card draw, Top is just what it needed. The deck manipulation it gives makes sure that every card that you do draw is a good one. Rock is also a hybrid deck, adjusting itself to the board and the deck that your opponent plays. This means that there will be wrong cards at wrong times on the top of your deck. With Top you can pick the right or best one and reshuffle if you want others.



I think focusing a direction with this version of The Rock will help you out a lot. Either use Confidant, Goyf, Ascetic/Finks and maybe Teeg or go for a big fatty list with stuff like BoP (to ramp mana), Stalker, Heirarch/Baloth, and maybe Garruk.

I think that Witness and Garruk deserve consideration. Basically, I think that you'll be happier having a more synergistic deck whether you go for a heavy control with big beats or a more aggro build.


I’m rather happy with the list that I am playing right now, getting consistent results. Witness certainly deserves a spot, we even tested it. You would cut the Grunts for it I guess, seeing as that would have bad synergy as well. Another person in my team does play with Witness but has been getting worse results. Witness in the agro build can be useless, especially with lots of graveyard hate going around in my metagame.

Garruk hasn’t been tested yet. The card has proven it’s worth in Type2 but still has to do so in Legacy. When in a bad board position this card just dies to creatures, making you lose card advantage. That means that this card is only worth playing when your board can handle it, making it a ‘win more’ card.

Bongo
10-31-2008, 06:25 AM
Good opening post!

Has Raven's Crime been tested? It's an absolute powerhouse, especially with Loam.

I also think Gigapede and Worm Harvest are the best finishers for this archetype.

citanul
10-31-2008, 07:25 AM
Good opening post!

Has Raven's Crime been tested? It's an absolute powerhouse, especially with Loam.

I also think Gigapede and Worm Harvest are the best finishers for this archetype.

Thanks.

Raven's Crime has been tested. In the late game it's indeed a great card, especially against control, combo or burn. The problem we had with Raven's Crime was that the opponent got to choose what card he discards. Against controller it doesn't matter since you have the time to keep on casting it but combo just discards some random one, still killing you. The preference went to a discard spell that allowed you to choose the card. Raven's Crime is more for a control build of Rock, at it's best a sideboard card over Duress.

Gigapede has also been tested, Worm Harvest hasn't. The problem with Gigapede was that it kept on costing me mana and has a to fragile body, often being chump blocked to death. Having to cast it every turn while manipulating your deck became very mana intensive. If any of those two cards will be added it will be in the spot of Tombstalker or Shriekmaw since you don't want to exagerate with high casting cost cards.

I can't seem to be able to edit my main post. I changed it, never went through, if I click edit now it shows me no text. When previewing changes made it also just jumps to an empty textbox. Does the change need an approval of any kind or did I do something wrong?

SickThoughts
10-31-2008, 09:00 AM
What about Grave-Shell Scarab? He's pretty awesome at evading deed, and most other removal while being able to come back quite easily. :D

idraleo
10-31-2008, 09:16 AM
Probably Raven' s Crime could be supported as well into decklists who splashes U for Intuition, to get faster Loam + cycling land+ Raven's Crime. In those case it coul be a nice shot, but it obv slows the gameplan, making it more suitable for controllish version that for those who run something near to Funkbrew as citanul did.

Solpugid
10-31-2008, 09:37 AM
Yet out of all the tournament matches I played I have only died from Confidant doing me damage once. That specific match was against Goyf Sligh and I revealed a Tarmogoyf.


This is a misleading statement whether or not you intend it to be. Bob doesn't have to kill you to negatively effect your chances of winning. If he drops you to 6 off a shriekmaw and your opponent has a siege-gang in play, you probably just lost the game. In the past I've tried to run decks like yours and always wanted a solid life-gain creature. Unfortunately, they are all subpar, and I worry that the Rock just can't support confidant.

idraleo
10-31-2008, 09:45 AM
This is a misleading statement whether or not you intend it to be. Bob doesn't have to kill you to negatively effect your chances of winning. If he drops you to 6 off a shriekmaw and your opponent has a siege-gang in play, you probably just lost the game. In the past I've tried to run decks like yours and always wanted a solid life-gain creature. Unfortunately, they are all subpar, and I worry that the Rock just can't support confidant.

That' s true if you don' t pack any life gain card such as citanul did. If some Baloth/Hierarch/Finks/Jitte is maindecked, also remembering that most of the times SDT is on the board, Confidant is the best way to did card advantage and simoultaneously don' t get plenty of creatures.

citanul
10-31-2008, 10:36 AM
What about Grave-Shell Scarab? He's pretty awesome at evading deed, and most other removal while being able to come back quite easily. :D


Useable in Control Rock. It does indeed come back easily and evades removal. With Tarmogoyf running rampant now I think that the 4/4 body might be to small to compete with Gigapede.


This is a misleading statement whether or not you intend it to be. Bob doesn't have to kill you to negatively effect your chances of winning. If he drops you to 6 off a shriekmaw and your opponent has a siege-gang in play, you probably just lost the game. In the past I've tried to run decks like yours and always wanted a solid life-gain creature. Unfortunately, they are all subpar, and I worry that the Rock just can't support confidant.


I did keep those things in mind. 5 cards in my deck will hit me for 5 or more damage with Confidant. It's 5% chance to hit a Shriekmaw (3/60) and 3.33% chance to hit a Tombstalker (2/60). Combined that is 8.33% chance to have a bad reveal. On the other hand you run 5% of your deck to stop this from happening (3 SDT's). The first trigger of Confidant can happen after having drawn a minimum of 8 cards when on the play. To calculate that by having a Confidant with those 8 and not having a SDT I'll have to do some research, it has been to long since I did such stuff.

I don't agree in saying that Rock can't support Confidant. There are plenty of decent cards giving you life, they don't have to be a creature, Jitte being the best example.

citanul
10-31-2008, 11:41 AM
Apparently I will not be able to edit my original topic so I'll add extra content in this post, hoping I can keep on editing this post.

Build: Agro vs. Control

There are a lot of different lists for the Rock, all having something in common. The used categories to divide these lists are Agro and Control. The lists differ so much that even the game plan and sometimes the way to achieve victory is different. I’ll be talking about the categories, what their upsides/downsides are and the eventual way of winning.
The thing we all strive for is to make a hybrid between a Control and an Agro build, making it a deck with a great early, mid and late game.

Control

Control uses bigger mana spells. To be able to cast such big spells a lot of mana acceleration is needed. Most commonly used cards for this are Birds of Paradise, Sakura-Tribe Elder and to a lesser extend Veteran Explorer, Yavimaya Elder. Having a higher curve also means they’ll be taking longer to gain control over the board, to get to that point they have to play ways to slow down the opponent. This is usually done with multi-use creatures and extra hand disruption.

The general game plan for a control build is to gain card advantage over the opponent while playing several cards that are of better quality than the opponent. Sort of a mix of quantity and quality. A great example for this is Pernicious Deed. Not only can it generate lots of card advantage, it’s also able to deal with the best cards of your opponent. After achieving such card advantage with a good board position they drop a big creature to finish the game.

Thanks to playing more main deck hand disruption like Cabal Therapy the combo match up is better. Trying to generate more card advantage does several things. The most important is getting enough answers to disrupt or even stop your opponents game plan. The other one is that the deck is more forgiving towards play errors, supplying you with another a new answer anyway.

Cards you’ll find in most control but not plenty of agro lists:
Loxodon Hierarch, Cabal Therapy, Wall of Blossoms, Living Wish, Genesis.

Agro

Agro has grown from the control build with time, taking several key cards, removing the rest to add undercosted creatures. The result are decks that can apply fast pressure, combining it with spot removal to clear a path but also a deck that has a decent mid/late game. The cards that are usually removed are big mana spells, hand disruption and mana accelerators. But these big spells are usually the way that Rock generates card advantage resulting in agro builds having less ways to do so.

To combat the loss of this ability agro builds try to make every card they draw a good card, often losing some flexibility in the process. The trick in these builds is making every card have a use in a broad variety of matches and during every part of the game. Vindicate is a perfect example of this although it’s not unique to agro builds. Vindicate can kill any targetable permanent in play (except indestructible) making it a card that can adapt to different game plans.

The biggest advantage of an agro build is giving your opponent little time to (re)build his board. Other agro decks like Zoo also does this but agro Rock has a better mid/late game.
Agro mainly focuses on controlling the board, making match ups revolving around non-permanents worse than before.

Cards you’ll find in most agro but not plenty of control lists:
Jotun Grunt, Call of the Herd, Hymn to Tourach

Addition to Section 4.2

Creatures:

Kitchen Finks: The persist is what makes this card worth playing. Gaining you 4 life while generating a form of card advantage. You can chump block with it twice, sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy and let it live through some removal. Often found in a more control build.

Loxodon Hierarch: When Rock started using white as a third color this card replaced Ravenous Baloth. For almost the same mana cost you get the same effect but faster. Regenerating all your creatures can be considered a bonus. When compared to Tarmogoyf, the P/T of this card is bad for it’s casting cost. Played in control build.

Troll Ascetic: Can’t be targeted by your opponent while having the ability to regenerate. A hard creature to get rid of is the least you can say. A weak body compared to other options available. Can either be played in control or agro build but barely sees play these days. Keeping 1G open all the time doesn’t feel good to most players.

Wall of Blossoms: Basicly a cantrip that stops an attacker. This card has been in lists since the existence of Rock. If you want to have a better match against agro you should consider this. Tarmogoyfs tend to trump Wall of Blossoms but that doesn’t mean there won’t be other cards to block.

Veteran Explorer: Now that most metagames have shifted to playing several basics this card has gotten the axe. It was used to gain fast mana to cast bigger creatures than the opponent. Was also a great creature to sacrifice to a Cabal Therapy.

Gigapede: Just like Troll Ascetic, this is a hard card to get rid of. Having a power of 6 it kills as good as every creature to see play. The 1 toughness makes it very weak, often just resulting in trades. That’s where the second part comes in handy, this one returns to your hand if you only discard a card. Due to this being a strain on your mana it mostly sees play in control builds.

Discard:

Raven’s Crime: When combined with Life from the Loam this card can be a powerhouse. Also an outlet for excess land.

Utiliity:
Unearth: Brings back cards that you hoped not to be death. The possibility to cycle this card when it would be useless makes it worth playing.

Living Wish: At the cost of some tempo you can either have a creature/land toolbox at your disposal or grab a kill. This card is mostly played in a control build since agro doesn’t want to spend the extra 2 mana.

Call of the Herd: Before the arrival in the Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance era most lists played this card. It forced the opponents to deal with 2 creatures often giving you card advantage.

Harmonize: A card draw spell in green is pretty Uncommon. Mostly played in control build but several agro lists do run it to keep their threats coming.

Recurring Nightmare: It brings back any creature back from the death if you are willing to sacrifice another. Returning it to your hand makes it reusable as many times as you want/can. In combination with cards that have a CiP effect this Nightmare can generate lots of card advantage.

Worm Harvest: A great finisher against plenty of decks. Combined with Life from the Loam you can keep on Harvesting Wurms. Also a great outlet for excess land.

Haunting Echoes: Some control lists use this card to make sure they win the game. Often only played as a single copy.

ScatmanX
10-31-2008, 12:22 PM
Just decided to change BG to BWG rock, because of Hierarch. Never noticed how better it was then Baloth, since I run Recurring Nightmare and Cabal Therapy.

I think Recurring Nightmare should be run, as a 1 or 2 of. It is great bringing back: witness (grabs any car you want), Hierarch, Finks (wich is great to sacrifice to it also). It gives you so much card advantage, it's ridiculous.

Solpugid
10-31-2008, 04:28 PM
I don't agree in saying that Rock can't support Confidant. There are plenty of decent cards giving you life, they don't have to be a creature, Jitte being the best example.

Ok, maybe my statement was a tad strong. What I really meant was that I don't think confidant is the best choice in traditional Rock. The problem with creatures as sources of life gain is that they rarely give you more life than they take from you, and usually cost too much mana (hierarch and baloth) to be effective. Kitchen finks, as a few ppl have mentioned, are the best option, but in my testing haven't performed all that well.

Jitte is better at recouping life than any creature, but adding that many low-cost permanents to the deck will make deed very two-sided, which is not what you want when you sink 7 mana into it. Some degree of dissynergy is fine (goyf+deed, and even goyf+tombstalker), but there has to be a line where you can't justify deed anymore.

rancOr_
10-31-2008, 06:05 PM
I dont think that there is any need for life-gaining creatures in this deck.
The others are just way better. Tombstalker is a bomb(it evades CB and has evasion.)

As for confidant..most of the time ur Confidant will get destroyed before u can even reveal a card. And if it doesn't u will most likely win due to cardadvantage. Also SDT is very nice,it limits ur dmge taken by confi,and filters your deck combined with fetchlands to find answers/threats.

About the sideboard.. what cards are best?And tormod's crypt/leyline?

citanul
11-01-2008, 07:28 AM
Ok, maybe my statement was a tad strong. What I really meant was that I don't think confidant is the best choice in traditional Rock. The problem with creatures as sources of life gain is that they rarely give you more life than they take from you, and usually cost too much mana (hierarch and baloth) to be effective. Kitchen finks, as a few ppl have mentioned, are the best option, but in my testing haven't performed all that well.

Jitte is better at recouping life than any creature, but adding that many low-cost permanents to the deck will make deed very two-sided, which is not what you want when you sink 7 mana into it. Some degree of dissynergy is fine (goyf+deed, and even goyf+tombstalker), but there has to be a line where you can't justify deed anymore.


You could play Phyrexian Arena over Confidant if you desire. It does cost one more and requires more black but since you speak of 'Traditional' Rock I assume you'll be playing Birds of Paradise anyway. In a control build it might not be opportune to play Confidant since the average CC of a card is higher while the cards that gain you life are limited.

I don't get it why people talk about dissynergy. If you have a creature equipped with a Jitte and are still forced to blow up a Deed then your opponent has lost a great deal of good cards as well. Same goes for every example brought up in the past.



About the sideboard.. what cards are best?And tormod's crypt/leyline?


Sideboard is mostly adjusted to your metagame. Krosan Grip should have a place in there at least. Crypt vs. Leyline is to your own preference, I opted for Crypt since the CC is lower (Confidant) and I can keep my opening 7 even if it is without any sideboarded hate while beign able to cast it if I do draw that hate. Also, Crypt is better against Agro-Loam. Else they just Burning Wish to Reverent Silence, destroying your Leyline(s). Crypt can just stay in your hand and come down when you want it to.

I do see the benefits for Leyline, Pithing Needle has no effect on it, it comes down even before you get a turn. Can't save Loam by cycling a card like they can with Crypt.

Media314r8
11-01-2008, 08:04 PM
I realize I've said this in about every Rock thread, but I really feel strongly about this:

Veteran Explorer is the nuts in Rock. Turn one explorer, turn two swing for 1, therapy you, flashback, hymn you is the god-damns. It's everything Birds wanted to be and more. It doesn't cost you a card like moxen, and with so few basics being run today, can net you card advantage outside of therapy, and by either cabal'in your opponent or chump blocking, helps with what the rock wants to do: get you into the mid-game, where your effects like Deed and your card advantage like witness, genesis, or loam can come into play without costing you life while you set it up.

Explorer Pros:
Accelerates you 2 turns.
Gets you out of blood-moon/back to basics situations via therapy or blocking.
Fixes your mana permanantly, giving you wasteland-proof access to all your colors.
Works insanely well with Therapy, and moderatly so with deed, often allowing you to lay a threat post-deed.
Mana is available immediately for Hymn/Deed/Goyf/Loam if you have therapy in the yard, which is much more likely with loam.

Explorer Cons:
Has to block or pay for therapy flashback to be good, so often just a 1/1 vs combo if you dont have therapy.
Nets your opponent basics, which sucks against some decks such as GOBLINS, 2c/CB Thresh, UW(x) Landstil, Loam control, and MWC, ect. Sometimes irrelevant against decks like 4c thresh, 4/5c survival, 4c Landstill, (as they often fetch basics if they see aggro-control) and combo decks other than solidarity.

Explorer's probably more fitting in decks that can really abuse the extra mana and have a better midgame plan such as wish, loam, recursion, ect. Metagame dependent as well (we have a lot of combo, 4c thresh, and Dragon Stompy in Ohio)

Nihil Credo
11-01-2008, 08:30 PM
Nets your opponent basics, which may be awkward in the Solidarity (irrel) or MUC matchup, (very small % of the field) but will often just fetch thresh it's lone (or often NO) basic.

You're being insanely optimistic - either that or you play in a metagame where Dragon Stompy has a win percentage of 85%. Look at the DTB Forum:


Counterbalance Thresh - Usually 2-3 basics. Makes decent use of the two extra (chain cantrips, play threat with Counterbalance active, possibly hardcast FoW a couple turns earlier, etc.). Somewhat hampered by "losing" Daze.
Tempo Thresh - Usually 0-1 basics. Very hampered by Daze/Stifle/Waste's loss of effectiveness.
Dreadstill - 2-6 basics. Makes very good use of the two extra (plenty of cantrips and activated abilities to spend mana on).
Ichorid - 0 basics. Couldn't use the two extra anyway.
Faerie Stompy - 8-10 basics. Two extra mana can be nuts or dead depending on the hand (Mulldrifter and Trinket Mage being king).
Vial Goblins - 4-8 basics. Matron, Ringleader, Siege-Gang, hello!
4C Landstill - 0-1 basics. Good thing they get only 1 land, since they love extra mana as much or more than you.
UWx Landstill - 2-6 basics. They love extra mana *much* more than you.
Survival - ~4 basic Forests usually. If they've got Survival, they'll go completely nuts. If they've got Burning Wish or Dark Confidant, they'll make good use of the extra lands.
Aggro Loam - Between 3 and 7-8 basics, depending on colours. Plenty of ways to abuse that extra mana (cycling lands, Loam, Burning Wish).
Imperial Painter - ~8 basics. Can use them to play Recruiter + guy in a single turn, I guess
EPIC Painter - 3 basics. Never played it, but it looks like it's a bit better than Counterbalance Thresh on exploiting extra mana (Trinket Mage)
In plenty of top-tier matchups, resolving Explorer's trigger will be not much worse for your opponent than for you - except you'll be down a card. When your opponent is actually favoured (eg Landstill, probably Dreadstill and Aggro Loam), you're left with either a dead card or a Fugitive Wizard that can't block.

And the non-DTB decks aren't much better; there aren't that many decks with 0-1 basics out there. To sum up, Veteran Explorer's drawback is far from insignificant.

Media314r8
11-02-2008, 03:56 AM
And the non-DTB decks aren't much better; there aren't that many decks with 0-1 basics out there. To sum up, Veteran Explorer's drawback is far from insignificant.

Hmm... perhaps there is an unhealthy number of 3/4c thresh and combo in my meta, but I totaly forgot about goblins, as I'm the only one that plays it. Goblins is probably the worst possible scenario for explorer, as the lackey it trades with will still allow them to drop chief AND driver on their turn two second main.

*Post edited to reflect the essential nature of running deed/damnation/some kind of sweeper, or more closely evaluate your meta. Doesn't work for everyone I suppose, and this list doesn't run a stronghold/Shriekmaw/witness/profane command recursion engine with which to better abuse the copious amounts of mana generated by explorer.

My bust, but who could resist that face?

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f28/Media314r8/IMG_0970.jpg

TheLion
11-02-2008, 04:39 AM
I have to agree with Media314r8! Explorer is really that good!

The important point is that YOU come into mid-game fast, because YOU play the control role. In most matchups it doesn't matter if your opponents get 2 basics, because most decks can't abuse their mana. And if the Goblin Player plays Warchief and Piledriver on turn 3, you take 5-7 damage, and Deed them away next turn.
Other decks may drop 2 Tarmogoyfs on turn 3, and you drop something like Spiritmonger, stall some rounds, gain card advantage, play Deed and so on...

So, obviously you play Explorer, if you have a higher mana curve and can abuse it better than your opponent (see Media314r8 last post: play Sweepers, Profane Command, Shriekmaw/Stronghold Recursion, ...)

Of course their are some decks (already mentioned: Solidarity and MUC) which get an advantage from Explorer, too.

citanul
11-02-2008, 10:36 AM
I have to agree with Media314r8! Explorer is really that good!

The important point is that YOU come into mid-game fast, because YOU play the control role. In most matchups it doesn't matter if your opponents get 2 basics, because most decks can't abuse their mana. And if the Goblin Player plays Warchief and Piledriver on turn 3, you take 5-7 damage, and Deed them away next turn.
Other decks may drop 2 Tarmogoyfs on turn 3, and you drop something like Spiritmonger, stall some rounds, gain card advantage, play Deed and so on...

So, obviously you play Explorer, if you have a higher mana curve and can abuse it better than your opponent (see Media314r8 last post: play Sweepers, Profane Command, Shriekmaw/Stronghold Recursion, ...)

Of course their are some decks (already mentioned: Solidarity and MUC) which get an advantage from Explorer, too.


I really don't like the card. You always think of the best situations for it while the bad ones are there as well. Goblins win against you when they generate advantage with Matron/Ringleader, getting more goblins than you have removal. Explorer is also only good early game, when drawn mid-game or late game it's a dumb 1/1, usually getting you nothing more.

It also doesn't help with your bad match ups are decks with direct damage (burn/goyf-sligh), combo and MUC. Against Combo Explorer is a 1/1 beater, no good clock and the extra 2 mana you get from it is useless. Again, the opportune would be Therapy hitting soemthing, Explorer to Flashback followed by Hymn to Tourach/Thorn of Amethyst. Giving Goyf-slight and Burn extra mana usually isn't a big deal but you thin their deck, allowing them to draw more business spells, often making the turn they kill you one faster. As for MUC, I think we can agree that giving them mana will be bad.

If you do wish to play any form of mana accel, why not play Sakura-Tribe Elder? It can get you that mana even without having a way to sacrifice while also slowing down agro. The biggest difference being that it doesn't get your opponent anything. You just can't afford playing average cards imo, hence I play neither.

ScatmanX
11-03-2008, 12:39 PM
Veteran Explorer works with Cabal Therapy and Recurring Nightmare (and ocasionally good with SDT), when Sakura don't. I'm currently with 4 VE, but they sure need more testing.

citanul
11-05-2008, 04:11 AM
Since everyone seems to be so interested in Veteran Explorer I’ll make a detailed post about it.

Benefits:
- Gets you 2 basic lands of your choice: Great early game, running 3 colours this can fix your mana, allowing you to keep more hands than usual.
- Lands come into play untapped so you can use them immediately.
- Allows you to cast your big spells faster.
- Gets you into mid game.
- Thins your deck, making you draw less land. (0.4 per land was it?)

Downsides:
- Gets the opponents 2 basic lands of their choice: Lots of decks run basics mainly because of Wasteland and Price of Progress. This means you’ll help them with their mana as well.
- You need the creature to die before it becomes useful. Making it needed to have a sacrifice engine. Cabal Therapy, blocking, Recurring Nightmare, Pernicious Deed are the most common way to do this. Since we want to do it as early in the game Therapy, blocking and in rare cases opponent’s removal are the only three that matter making Explorer very situational.
- Only triggers when going to the graveyard. Swords to Plowshares or bounce can set you back or making your hand a bad keep. There’s a reason first turn BoP’s are getting shot.
- 3rd and 4th Explorer will be death cards 90% of the time. Even the 2nd one won’t do that much anymore.
- Gets you into mid game faster. Yes this also is a benefit, it depends on the match up.
- It does not improve your bad match ups, it only improves match ups already in your favour making it a win more card.

MU’s where Explorer is good:
- Decks with no basic land: Rogue deck X?
- Decks running Land Destruction: Team America, Eva Green, Pikula
- Decks that don’t want you to reach mid game: Treshhold

MU’s where Explorer CAN be good:
- Prison decks: Having mana to keep away from their lock. Also aids them in getting the mana for their lock though.
- Ichorid: Getting to Deed mana fast enough.
- Goblins: Getting away from their mana denial, allowing you to cast your removal.

MU’s where Explorer is bad:
- Burn/Goyf Sligh: It’s not that these decks need a lot of mana but they sure can use it. Also thinning their deck so they draw more business spells.
- Control decks: Muc, Landstill. Giving them two extra mana can be your downfall easily because their CA is bigger than yours.
- Combo without basics: TES, FT, AdN: They don’t run basic land but a 1/1 beater or two extra land on your side isn’t going to bug them. Ichorid might be the only one not wanting to see a Pernicious Deed.
- Combo with basics: Solidarity: 2 free mana, I think I’ll go off now.
- Mirror: Down a card, both having same manabase and this MU is all about card advantage.
- Loam based decks: They can use their Loam engine faster and more, burying you in card advantage.

Conclusion: Explorer is very situational. Only good against a limited amount of decks in a limited amount of situations.

My opinion: Don’t play it! It’s very subpar, often aiding your opponent just as much as yourself. Rock is originally designed as a board control deck and it still is, giving your opponent 2 free mana is not what you should be doing. Mana denial can be a game plan of Rock with Wasteland/Vindicate/… but not if you are running Explorer.

If you want to reach that Mid game faster just run Birds of Paradise. You do lose the mana when removal is cast on it but your opponent just spend their turn casting a removal card on a birdie. It can still chump block, be sacrificed to Cabal Therapy and Recurring Nightmare. The biggest benefit of BoP is that it does not aid your opponent.

Holo_rip
11-05-2008, 05:02 AM
being an avid The Rock player, i've tested several variation of the deck, and several accelerant / mana fixer.
- bird,
- explorer,
- sakura,
- and even tusker.

while bird and explorer come down turn one, the first can't do a shit about a lackey and the second is too symmetrical nowaday.
tusker is too slow, needing 3 mana to cycle and another turn to have a land.
Overall sakura is the best. It come down turn 2, chump block like a pro, and grant a land drop now. It also help in MU like ichorid. The only downside is the fact that it is antisynergetic with reccuring nightmare, but well, if you have one in play, you should be in the late game, and thus win anyway.

That's my point of view, what's yours ?

citanul
11-05-2008, 05:41 AM
Overall sakura is the best. It come down turn 2, chump block like a pro, and grant a land drop now. It also help in MU like ichorid. The only downside is the fact that it is antisynergetic with reccuring nightmare, but well, if you have one in play, you should be in the late game, and thus win anyway.

That's my point of view, what's yours ?


I agree, I suggested Sakura-Tribe Elder in some previous post but it got shot down with the following argument:



Veteran Explorer works with Cabal Therapy and Recurring Nightmare (and ocasionally good with SDT), when Sakura don't. I'm currently with 4 VE, but they sure need more testing.


In a very old list from me, when Ravnica came out I played a control Rock, winning a tournament only once with it I stopped playing it back then, both Sakura and Birds of Paradise where included and I have to say, Sakura was great. Now with SDT in most lists Sakura will be even better than before.

What I don't get is why people want mana acceleration in their deck. There are plenty of cards that get you through the early game without being bad if you draw them late game. Swords to Plowshares, Tarmogoyf, Shriekmaw, ... .
If you are scared of missing land drops just play enough Fetchland and add Life from the Loam. That combination is also very powerful with SDT, seeing 9 cards every turn if you want. Also makes the singleton of Volrath's Stronghold hard to get rid of.

idraleo
11-05-2008, 08:45 AM
Most of the times people who wants acceleration in theyr deck want to have it because they' ll run SDT. Sakura fits perfectly with SDT, gives deck shuffling, thinning and a good chumpblocker to get in the middle-late game.

citanul
11-05-2008, 09:03 AM
Most of the times people who wants acceleration in theyr deck want to have it because they' ll run SDT. Sakura fits perfectly with SDT, gives deck shuffling, thinning and a good chumpblocker to get in the middle-late game.


yet a single Life from the Loam with a fetchland does the same thing but then as much as you want it to. The only thing it doesn't do is accelerate and chump block but I don't feel the need for that with all the options you have. Besides, Sakura with SDT means you'll drop Sakura on turn3 the earliest. Else there will be no added effect with top since you never saw the top3 cards and don't know if you wish to shuffle. A turn3 drop for accel sounds bad.

I played with Sakura before, without SDT back then. It was good, mainly because Goblins still ruled the day and you needed that chump + mana accel. Now you can usually take that hit or have your own Tarmogoyf down to block anyway. Loam offers more than Sakura ever will during mid and late game making the discussion solemn on early game. For me the question is: do we need that accel and chump block in current meta?

rancOr_
11-05-2008, 10:56 AM
I dont see the advantage of running stuff like VA,sakura,.. This deck alrdy
has lots of removal/disrupt effects to get you in the midgame anyway.
And you should compare a VA/sakura topdeck, vs things like Tombstalker.
Yes,it does filter ur deck,but so do fetchlands/Top and even loam if you play it. I personally think that the control version of this deck,with all the mana acelleration etc. has just become way too slow in today's legacy.

If you however go more control- like, Garruk is an awesome card.
Its not that hard to cast,and is very synergetic with P. Deed.

Also I think tombstalker should get some more attention. It is one of the best legacy creatures atm.(and goyf ofc). Its good with deed, amazing topdeck midgame,and not even bad if you draw it fast. It avoids counterbalance completly,doesnt care about spellsnare and has evasion.. TS doesnt have a great impact on the p/t of goyf either.The only argument u could find against it ,is not to play it,because you alrdy run Confidants. Even if you would reveal it(what almost never happens,bcz u run like 2-3),its most likely winning you the game anyway. SDT is amazing
in this deck..Combined with fetchs etc,it gets everything u need and minimizes the dmge taken by Confidant.

Pulp_Fiction
11-14-2008, 03:22 AM
Recently I took this list to a 5-0-1 top 4 split out of 26ish players at my local card shop:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Loxodon Hierarch
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
3x Doran, the Siege Tower
3x Spiritmonger (MVP All Night!!)
2x Eternal Witness

4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Cabal Therapy

4x Windswept Heath
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
2x Savannah
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp

SB
3x Krosan Grip
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Choke
4x Engineered Plague

First off, at the last minute I decided I needed 3x Deed so I cut one Cabal Therapy and left the other one in! Cabal Therapy should be cut and replaced with a single Crime/Punishment. Alright, I see a lot of people depating Veteran Explorer/Elder/blah card choices and STE is spectacular. Veteran Explorer helps your opponent. Thats all I am going to say. And to those who feel STE does not belong in the deck just think of it like this, STE fills the following roles:
Blocker against early beats
Mana/color fixer
Tins the deck
Attacks when necessary
OWNS Dredge
Additional shuffle effect for Top

STE is one of the best cards in the deck and is better than Birds of Paradise or Veteran Explorer by a long shot. If you are going to run Birds you can run additional Cabal Therapies but usually when they die your mana development is greatly stunted. Against Team America, which I had to play against twice, STE was crucial. I was Sinkholed x2, Stifle on Fetch x2, and Wastelanded and still won VIA Spiritmonger! STE is an essential part of the deck and later on in the game it is not totally dead! So to add to the previous agruments: STE is the best option in a Rock deck, it is simply invaluable, and the deck doesn't need mana accel, it needs mana fixing.

Weird card choices: Loxodon Hierarch and Spiritmonger! Most people abandoned Spiritmonger long ago but he is still just a fucking monster. The only time I sided it out was against Elves! Swords to Plowshares .... thats it, that is literally the only answer commonly played by ANY deck in the format that deals with him. Sure Wrath of God effects remove him as do Oblivion Rings but those are not very common, at least in my meta. He owns Goyf and avoids Counterbalance unless for some reason they have Force on top. Spiritmonger is to good to not play, he owns everything next to Dreadnoughts and in a deck with Deed, Vindicate, StP, and KGrip in SB those are not problematic. The card is just phenomenal and generally avoids Vedalken Shackles as well! Loxodon Hierarch .... its good! Most people won't run this because of the fact it sucks against Goyf, but this card single-handedly devastates most forms of fast aggro/burn. Hierarch dominates the Goblins matchup and the Affinity one as well and has great synergy with Deed IE it can regenerate all your shit if necessary or it just avoids Deed altogether (usually blown up for less than 3). The bottom line is this, test these creatures out and if you dislike them don't play them. BUT give them a chance before dismissing them and claiming Garruk is better. Garruk has synergy with Deed (tokens dont) but most decks have answers for 3/3 elephants, think of how many decks in your meta have answers for Spiritminger. I dislike Garruk and I have used it in standard and tested it in legacy and never found it useful.

Here are the decks I encountered at the tournament:
Round 1: Team America (2-0)
Round 2: Team America (2-0)
Round 3: Bauble Burn (2-1)
Round 4: 4C Thresh Stuff (2-1)
Round 5: ID
Round 6: Elves (2-0)

If anyone is interested in a report I will write one up.

citanul
11-14-2008, 04:17 AM
Congratulations on your result. I'm intrested in seeing the Team America match ups written out.

I agree that STE is a good card, much better than other options.
You could just cut the Cabal Therapy for a 4th Vindicate instead of a Crime/Punishment. Also, do you find Crime/Punishment to be better than EE? The punishment side has the same effect for usually the same mana cost. EE has the advantage of coming down earlier and spending those 2 extra mana later. Yet it can be disrupted by Stifle or destruction. I seem to lean towards Crime/Punishment myself but wonder if the Crime part is played often.



and the deck doesn't need mana accel, it needs mana fixing.


This intrigues me, if it needs mana fixing you can just run Life from the Loam. It gets back destroyed land and used fetchland for the same mana cost as STE. The downside is that it can't chumpblock but is that really needed with a creature base as yours? The only Match up I think chumping came in handy would be elves. You sure it isn't the mana accel that's the intresting part?

Sidenote: I noticed the original post has vanished, it's being researched why and how to fix it.

TheLion
11-14-2008, 05:21 AM
Congratulations, too!

Your points about Spiritmonger and Hierarch are so true. People tend to believe, that creatures, which costs more than 3 mana, suck.
But this is so wrong. The Rock has enough acceleration, to effort things like Spiritmonger (at least the midrange and control variants).
Alternatively to Hierarch one could run Ravenous Baloth or Chameleon Colossus. I think this ends up to personal preference and the version you play (maybe without W splash). I like Colossus, too. Protection from black keeps all removal except Swords away, and the ability to get 8/8 makes him often unblockable acts like a Moat (they won't attack with their Goyfs then).

I also think that STE is better than Birds. The discussion about Explorer vs. STE depends on the build I think: If you run Cabal Therapy and/or a more controllish build, which needs fast much mana, you want to run Explorer, else in a more aggro build (like yours), STE is probably the better choice.
The point, that Explorer helps your opponent, isn't really true, I think. It is right, that he get 2 lands, but most decks run such a low curve, that the extra lands do not help that much. The important thing is, that YOU can play your Spiritmonger at the same time, your opponent plays his Goyf. From there on, you obviously have an advantage off the 2 lands, while your opponent has not. They might play a second goyf in one turn, but so what? (The few exceptions (MUC) have already been mentioned).

Mordel
11-14-2008, 06:06 AM
I am not really sure how relevant this is(probably isn't), but the inclusion of spiritmonger got me to thinking about how awesome molder slug was in older rock builds.

Stuff like 3sphere and chalice aren't as big of a deal for Rock -styled decks, but in matches like faerie stompy and the billions of decks that use countertop, crucible and whatever he could be incidentally good.

Just a likely useless plug for a card that I got lots of use out of...he obviously isn't a replacement for current removal, but more of a supplement.

Also, that list looks pretty nice to me. There is nothing wrong with higher cc cards in a deck that will make it to the later part of the game often, but at a glance it does seem a bit top-heavy. I am out of touch with The Rock now, even though I spent years playing it in extended.

The only thing that I can just sort of get from that deck at a glance that I am really not liking and would argue is the two tops. I like tops, but I hate seeing them in almost everything. Maybe it is an irrational bias, but I don't see them as being that shit-hot in your deck unless there are four(which I wouldn't like much either, but then it comes down to preference etc) and if there are only two, why run them with no way to really ensure you get them midgame, which is when I assume you want to see them.

TheLion
11-14-2008, 06:25 AM
Molder Slug is too narrow. They don't need to sacrifice their Top, since the could put it back on top. Other things like Crucible can be handled with Deed, Vindicate, Putrefy. Maybe in the SB, or as Living Wish target, if you play it.

@SDT: You never want to see more than one. So I think 2 is a fine number. If you don't draw it, it's ok, too. You don't need it that much as Counterbalance based decks would need it.

citanul
11-14-2008, 07:57 AM
Why don't you want to see two tops? You put it back on top, use a shuffle effect and gone it is! I run three and if I had the room I'd run 4, the card is just that awesome. Multiple tops don't hurt at all as said before, you can just reshuffle them. Some of my playtest partners have come to understand the power of it since Rock has no extra card draw besides Confidant for some and started countering SDT. I often lose just because they did that.

Rock is a hybrid deck, full of answers. This makes some cards dead in certain matches. SDT allows you to filter out these cards and not draw them. As an example: You play 4 Thoughtseize just because you want it in your opening hand. Yet Thoughtseize is a bad topdeck in most cases. SDT makes sure you won't draw it. But against control decks you want to draw that Thoughtseize to make sure your threat resolves/sticks, SDT helps in finding them.

Without SDT I wouldn't even play Rock. That's how good I find that card.

Molder Slug would be a sideboard card at it's best. Spiritmonger has a better body, grows, regenerates and is black so it evades some removal. Molder Slug would only be good against Stax, and lets be fair, that's a good match up already.

Mordel
11-14-2008, 08:54 AM
Two of anything that you would like to see is generally indicative of other manipulation or you don't really care that much if you see it a lot of the time because...without other manipulation, you won't see it as much as you should see your only manipulation card. I feel like I shouldn't need to be explaining that...

Molder slug was largely a shot in the dark, but so many decks use artifacts to great effect. Even the much-loved divinning top gets fucked by it unless an opponent wants to burn more mana every turn to do it, which in a deck like thresh perse is absolutely fine by me. Molder slug isn't only useful against decks that are entirely based around artifacts and in some respects is worse against such decks because of multiples...especially stax.

If I was playing my stax and my opponent flopped down a slug(if they had the mana) I would shrug because I can feed it extra 3spheres and so forth. It wouldn't be great, but frankly, a magus would make it history pretty fucking quick and again, that is if they have enough land. There is discard and other factors, but lets not introduce those and create a gigantic anecdotal cluster fuck.

I am not saying slug is the hot tech or anything, but it could be a far more useful card than people think.

citanul
11-14-2008, 09:16 AM
Two of anything that you would like to see is generally indicative of other manipulation or you don't really care that much if you see it a lot of the time because...without other manipulation, you won't see it as much as you should see your only manipulation card. I feel like I shouldn't need to be explaining that...

Molder slug was largely a shot in the dark, but so many decks use artifacts to great effect. Even the much-loved divinning top gets fucked by it unless an opponent wants to burn more mana every turn to do it, which in a deck like thresh perse is absolutely fine by me. Molder slug isn't only useful against decks that are entirely based around artifacts and in some respects is worse against such decks because of multiples...especially stax.

If I was playing my stax and my opponent flopped down a slug(if they had the mana) I would shrug because I can feed it extra 3spheres and so forth. It wouldn't be great, but frankly, a magus would make it history pretty fucking quick and again, that is if they have enough land. There is discard and other factors, but lets not introduce those and create a gigantic anecdotal cluster fuck.

I am not saying slug is the hot tech or anything, but it could be a far more useful card than people think.


Wait... What? :confused: *rereads* Nope still don't get it.

I assume the part about SDT agrees with running multiples? Because not running other manipulation won't find you that SDT when you want it. I'm heavily confused about that part btw.

Did you just say that Molder Slug is a great tech, yet against the deck that runs the most artifacts it sucks? Most played artifact is SDT, they flip it and it costs them the full 1 mana every turn, that's nothing. The other two decks are Stax and Agro-Loam which plays Diamonds and Chalice. You just said it sucks against Stax and I don't see us getting 5 mana fast against Loam decks, the impact of Slug is very small there.

Pulp_Fiction
11-14-2008, 02:52 PM
Top is a personal preference. I think 2-3 is the right number but am currently happy with 2. Does it HAVE to be in the deck, no, but everytime it was in my opening hand or I drew into it I was always glad to see it. That spot could be Glittering Wish if you want it to be but IMOP that card is to slow. Top generates insane card guality and in the mid-late game with 11 shuffle effects in the deck you are guarnteed to draw some action spells rather than more garbage. It is also great early on, not totally necessary early on but it does help out. When looking at deckcheck.net I saw Sol Malka's extended Rock build and he ran 2 Tops, since he is the master and creator of B/G/x Rock I figured 2 was the right number!

@citanul: I don't think the deck really needs acceleration but the land from STE doesn't hurt! For instance, if Rock really needed mana accel you could run 2+ of these cards: Birds/Wall of Roots/Explorer/STE/Llanowar Elves but it really isn't necessary. You would rather be sure to have that black mana for Deed on turn 3 rather than accelerate into turn 3 Hierarch (usually) but the option to do so is always nice should you need to! Running excessive mana accel will really hurt in the late game as well as you have so many dead cards.

The Team America matchup is VERY favorable. They only run 8 threats .... against a deck with Vindicate, Deed, StP and EW to bring them back, its not pretty!

Round 1:

Game 1: I am on the draw and mull to 6 and keep a hand of StP, Vindicate, fetch,fetch, Bayou, Forest. I draw into Thoughtseize and play it seeing a hand of Tombstalker, Stifle, Sinkhole, Wasteland, fetch, Brainstorm and take the Tombstalker. I knew his hand was very high on mana denial but the deck plays so few threats I wanted to get rid of those immediately! So I get Wastelanded on his next turn and he says go. I draw into Scrubland and say go. The game goes on and he drew into and another Sinkhole and Stifle but still no threat. Around turn 9 I have 4 lands in play and have been Sinkholed twice, fetches Stifled twice, and Wastelanded once! 23 lands .... good number! I eventually drew into Goyf which was immediately answered with his Goyf and his went farming! Start beatdown with Goyf who is soon joined by Spiritmonger. Goyf gets Snuffed Out and my opponent just stares at Spiritmonger and scoops em up! I had another Vindicate in my hand and a Deed at the end of the game incase things got bad!

Game 2: This was a complete slaughter. I got Thoughtseized and StP was taken. I drop Doran to defend against his Goyf and he plays Deed??? Interesting, I Thoughtseize him and play my own Deed and pass the turn. On his next turn I blow up everything for 3 (getting his Deed off table) and he drops Tombstalker. Tombstalker gets Vinticated and the following turn Hierarch joins the fight. Hierarch gets Snuffed Out and Doran comes down in succession! He has no answer for Doran and loses in a timely manner!

Round 2:

Game 1: Another slaughter except instead of Sinkholes he plays Hymn to Tourach (which was a LOT better!). My opening hand was sick and thanks to STE I was able to play around his Daze! He drops 3-4 threats in the first 9 turns and they all die! I drop Goyf and Spiritmonger and it is over fast!

Game 2: I lucksacked this one out; I was forced to keep a very decent 6-card hand because I reasoned it was better than a good 5-card hand! My opening 6 were: Bayou, Thoughtseize x2, Vindicate, StP, Spiritmonger! I figured the Thoughtseizes would be enough to hold him off for a while and I was right! Thoughtseize on turn 1 gets Tombstalker gone but my Bayou is immediately Wastelanded!!!! My next draw was a Forest so I have a single land in play. Next draw was another Spiritmonger! Then I draw a Plains! Meanwhile he is cantriping trying to find threats. He finally drops Goys right about the same time I drew into STE. I still have Forest and Plains as my only lands and my attempt to fetch a land gets Stifled! Goyf goes farming and I get double Hymned! Eventually I have no cards in hand and 4 lands in play and he has like 6 lands in play and 1 card in hand, turns out it is Tombstalker! Fuck, my next draw .... Goyf, not bad I drop Goyf and pass. He swing with the Stalker putting me at 12 and he is at 24 or something from fetchlands and StP. I draw in to Deed, play it, swing and pass the turn. He swings in with Stalker and drops me to 7 and passes the turn. I draw into another land, play it, swing in, and pass turn. He swings in, drop me to 2 life and passes. Before my next draw I say "well it has to be Swords" and draw into StP!!!! His Tombstalker goes farming and Goyf brings the pain! He plays draw go for a little and I draw into nothing of relevance but am swinging with Doran. I get uselessly Hymned again and have no cards in hand. He drops a third Tombstalker! At 6 life and Goyf is a 5/6!!!!!! Fuck me, after all that he draws his his 3rd Stalker with Deed in play and I only have 7 lands and 1 of them is a fetch! I draw Vindicate OFF THE TOP and that seals the deal!!!

I sideboarded like this: -3 Hierarch, -1 Cabal Therapy, +4 Choke but Choke had no relevance towards the match at all!

Swing4Five
11-14-2008, 03:02 PM
To be fair, this "VERY favorable" matchup you just described was against sub-optimal lists.

The less-than effective P.Deed and Hymns that just lead to you winning the above games are not run in Gearheart's list for the plethora of reasons he and others have given in the deck's thread.

citanul
11-14-2008, 03:28 PM
I'm rather scared of Team America myself. Not tested it yet since we are busy testing against lists of Dreadstill which is played more here than Team America so far. I'm not that scared since it's a tempo based deck and with no card advantage you should be fine.



Top is a personal preference. I think 2-3 is the right number but am currently happy with 2. Does it HAVE to be in the deck, no, but everytime it was in my opening hand or I drew into it I was always glad to see it. That spot could be Glittering Wish if you want it to be but IMOP that card is to slow. Top generates insane card guality and in the mid-late game with 11 shuffle effects in the deck you are guarnteed to draw some action spells rather than more garbage. It is also great early on, not totally necessary early on but it does help out.


Glittering Wish and SDT don't compare. Glittering is a toolbox card, SDT is manupilation. It's always personal preference, I'm just here trying to convince people of the greatness of this card. Brainstorm is played for the manipulation for U, only good when combined with a shuffle effect, else you'll just see those two cards you put back again. SDT is Brainstorm on steroids. Once it lands it allows you to check the top3 anytime for just one colorless mana. Don't like it, shuffle. Need the card fast, switch.

I'll keep saying it, Rock is a deck with answers, versatile answers. SDT gets you the ones you want at the times you want them, filters out dead draws such as lands late game, Pernicious Deed against an empty board, Thoughtseize against an empty handed opponent. This card is all Rock could ever dream of, making the right parts come out at the right time. Also, with no card drawing you want to be sure that every card drawn is a good one. You illustrated it yourself in that report (thanks for that btw) that you had several dead draws and needed a topdeck. SDT got you there 2 turns faster, maybe you wouldn't even be in such a situation if you had one.



When looking at deckcheck.net I saw Sol Malka's extended Rock build and he ran 2 Tops, since he is the master and creator of B/G/x Rock I figured 2 was the right number!


If his deck is similar to your list, copying it might be good. Even then I'd still question it and playtest with other numbers. Maybe his metagame is different, he plays different, he thinks different.



be fair, this "VERY favorable" matchup you just described was agianst sub-optimal lists.

The less-than effective P.Deed and Hymns that just lead to you winning the above games are not run in Gearheart's list for the plethora of reasons he and others have given in the deck's thread.


Although I don't agree in Team America being a good match up, mainly since no testing has been done so far, I don't think a more optimal list matters that much. The deeds obviously came out of the sideboard and I think Hymn to Tourach hurts Rock more than Sinkhole will.

I read the entire Team America thread and I also find that Sinkhole > Hymn to Tourach and that P. Deed has no place in TA, not even in the sideboard. Against the Rock however that might be different and since that's the match up we are talking about it is what matters for our analysis.

Mordel
11-14-2008, 03:45 PM
...Including two copies of something that you eant to see consistently is retarded unless you are Japanese/a pro and have absurd luck.

Citanul, it was late here when I typed that, but if you don't understand, then you will probably continue to not understand.

citanul
11-14-2008, 03:52 PM
Citanul, it was late here when I typed that, but if you don't understand, then you will probably continue to not understand


Ah that kind of time ;).

Seems I understood it since I thought you wanted to say that 2 is to few if you want to have it often without any deck manipulation.

Mordel
11-14-2008, 04:01 PM
There we go, yes.

If I have a deck with draw and other search, I will run two or one of something even, but in a deck where said card is pretty much the only form of search, two copies mean some games will go by without seeing it once(I will never bank on luck...ever).

Run more than two or run none imo. I follow the divergent school of Rock that Michael Pustilnik got rolling. Mikey P is after all the guy that adapted a block deck to 1.x and also played it wherever it was viable basically.

In a Rock style deck I am extremely concerned with consistence and if I can't run any tutors, I want three or four of something unless it is a land or a redundant card.

Pulp_Fiction
11-14-2008, 04:26 PM
I am going to ignore Swing4Five's ignorant comments since Deed was in SB and SB is all meta-dependent and Hymns were a cost-substitute that were more effective in the matchup (thus making it more difficult) than pointless Sinkholes. Stick to threads about decks with blue in them, thanks.

@Mordel: You truly don't seem to get it. Sensei's Divining Top DOES NOT have to be in the deck. Personally I love the card in the deck but I don't HAVE to draw it. The whole deck is filled with good stuff and Top helps you find some of that but it IS NOT necessary. Its not a bad card and drawing into it is never bad but redundant multiples of Top can be. 3 would be as many as I would run but again, TOP IS NOT NECESSARY. It is hella good in the deck but you don't need it to win. So, we really need to aim the discussion at cards that actually matter in the deck. Like Spiritmonger, Doran, Hierarch, Ravenous Baloth, Correct # of Eternal Witness. Is 4x Pernicious Deed to many? Is 4x Vindicate to many? Those kinds of questions that actually apply to something rather than correct number of Tops (if any).

And Molder Slug ..... its ok I guess but it seems rather worthless unless you have a meta with lots of Affinity and Stax but with Deed these matchups are already really good. Its a decent card but I think there are just better alternatives. It could potentially be SB material though.

Mordel
11-14-2008, 04:39 PM
Why not add more deed and therapy or something then? Maybe two copies of the aforementioned crime//punishment?

I do understand what you are getting at, but if all the card is really offering is a nice little nugget to draw every so often I would opt for a more redundant suite of removal.

The advantage that I always associated with BGx midrange/disruption decks was absurd consistency and ability to deal with just about anything. Deed is awesome, but sometimes it can get nerfed by a counterbalance or a chalice. Crime//Punishment is an awesome solution to such an issue and two copies will mean that you are likely to have drawn it before a six mana COV becomes and issue and so forth.

Pulp_Fiction
11-14-2008, 05:05 PM
I see what ur saying and I agree. I will test out 3 Tops but I really think 2 is the way to go. Next tournament I go to I will try to think of Crime/Punishment as the 3rd Top and see what seems better. Top just adds that little extra kick that this deck on occassion will need but I love the versatility of just 1x Crime/Punishment cause it adds extra redundancy against faster decks, ETW tokens, and 12/12s but I am not sure how good it would be in multiples. That is probably why I would prefer 2 Tops because it can fill either role by finding removal or threats, whatever may be necessary for the time. Its kind of an "unsure" card because you want those 2 slot to be good and Top is like a neutral choice.

rancOr_
11-14-2008, 05:57 PM
I think SDT is like the best card u can get in The Rock. When you get to the midgame or even early,top is very nice. Combine that with some fetches/loam/other shuffle effects and you can find answers for everything.
With 1 fetch,SDT makes it possible to look at 6! cards,not bad...
This is not a tempo deck,so you will get in the midgame most of the games.
As for playing 2 tops, I personally think 2 is a very random number.
I've always played 3 of em,and that seems to work pretty good.

I'm also testing TA and it does make a decent chance against the rock,however the rock should win most of the games(atleast the build Citanul runs with Loam..) Hymn instead of sinkhole is NOT the way to go. The plan is to do a consistent t2 Sinkhole,together with the wasteland/stifle manascrewplan. This makes daze alot better,since your opponent wont acces to alot of mana.
This deck should loose if the rock stabalizes after t5-6 or something,cause vindicate/plow then become better.

Mordel
11-14-2008, 07:38 PM
If I was going to go all in with a BGx mid range/control deck, I would probably have to give tutors a shot and that they suck by my own crushing defeats because I am pretty attached to the idea of bullets in a deck that wants to get called The Rock.

That was probably my favorite thing about rock: having access to a bullet to destroy deck X. Maybe that is why I have an aversion to running SDT in decks that try to follow The Rock's strategy: I don't give a shit about finding cards that I run four of already, I want to find cards that are chosen for the match that I am in that all the cards I run three or four of had paved the way for and win. I'm just a nostalgic retard I guess.

Holo_rip
11-15-2008, 07:44 AM
Congratulation for your result !

As many have say, i really think two SDT is too low. 3 is the right number i guess, and sometime i'm also wondfering if i could squeeze another copie in the deck.

As for C/P, i think it is really a must in the BGW version. Being a mass removal and win condition help. Also, it pass through counterbalance easily.

Also, i think we don't need to run hierarch anymore. Most of nowaday threat are in the 0-2/3 range. In your version, i only see it to keep a tarmogoyf on the table, but to do this, you have to crack your deed AND crack your loxodon. Some time you'll have enought mana, sometime you won't. I really think that the upgrade version is kitchen finks. It is on color, recure himself after a deed, and chump like a pro in the matchup. Moreover, in the goblin matchup it come down one turn earlier, wich may be crucial to block a lethal pilly.

Also, i think you play too much land. 23 seem a bit high, i really think that with STE you can afford to drop to 22 land. 21 is fine, but sometime you'll get screwd, so yes 22 seems fine.

And finally, i wonder what you guys think of enforcer in the deck. It can reach threshold finelly, and being a flying threat help a lot. Moreover, it chump tombstalker like a pro. I guess i could also mention tombstalker, but it have no synergie with witness and volrath's stronghold.

throst54
11-17-2008, 02:25 AM
SDT is amazing, it lets you run more answers, but be able to find your threats when you need to.
While drawing multiples can be annoying, it isn't anything to be worried about.

About the Veteran Explorer vs Sakura Tribe-Elder. It depends on the build. I think every rock player should test out both.
A lot of people tend to overextend once you give them the lands, making your deeds even better.
One thing I've always found with the rock is that I've never been able to deed soon enough, and explorer helps with that. The best turn two play is Explorer+dbl therapy- Especially if you thoughtseized turn one. Then you have two lands to dop a 'goyf, play top & use it, or if you're playing a lot of control- hymn.
Being able to play and blow deed for 2 on turn three can be huge.
Dont get me wrong though, Sakura Tribe Elder definitely has the advantage of there not being matchups you want to side him out. And there are a few matchups you want to side him out for sure.

Also, with the amount of discard and removal we play and the average deck in most metas only running 4-12 win conditions I've found that boarding in extirpate against said decks can make seemingly bad match ups incredibly easier.

Pulp_Fiction
11-17-2008, 04:33 PM
I just took this list to a top 4 split at the Grand Prix Atlanta Legacy side event:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Loxodon Hierarch
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
3x Doran, the Siege Tower
3x Spiritmonger
2x Eternal Witness

4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Crime/Punishment

4x Windswept Heath
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
2x Savannah
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp

SB
3x Krosan Grip
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Choke
4x Engineered Plague

There were around 26 people in it and it was the most varied metagame you could possibly think of. 3x Countersliver, 2x Belcher, Affinity, 4c Thresh, 2x Burn, 3x Goblins, Rock, BW Confidant, 2x Berserk Stompy, Dreadstill, Team America and a few others!!! It was nuts. I will give a short tournament report but I only played against 3 different decks in the 5 rounds, cut to top 8 tournament!

Round 1: Burn
game 1: I saw him shuffling and knew I was playing against Sligh or Burn so I got ready and kept a great opening hand with Goyf, Hierarch, Doran, and some lands. I fetch basics and kill him promptly with about 10 life to spare. Hierarch OWNS in this matchup!

game 2: I mull to 6 trying to find creature + Swords or Hierarch and kept a phenomenal hand of land, land, land, STE, Hierarch, Hierarch! I get burned in the face in the first 2 turns for 6 damage and then watch my dreams die as Sulfuric Vortex comes down on turn 3! That no life-gain part ... makes me lose, I scoop em' up and go to game 3.

game 3: Much better, I mull to 6 and see lands, Hierarch, StP, and Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize turn 1 gets Vortex. I draw into STE and he accelerates me into turn 3 Hierarch and that is pretty much the matchup. I have enough life to win easily VIA Hierarch and Doran!

Round 2: Countersliver
game 1: This matchup is actually really easy so long as your opponent's deck does not curve out perfectly like my opponent's did! He drops turn 1 vial and turn 2 Muscle Sliver. I know how fast this deck is and since I had Vindicate and Hierarch in hand I decided to throw Goyf into Daze (assuming he had it) and he did. Next turn all the Slivers fly and Vial goes up to 2 and I take some more damage! I can't play Hierarch because he doesn't race Slivers and can't block so I Vindicate Winged Sliver (so I can block next turn but he has the FoW for it! Hideous! He vials in another Sliver and starts to swing for 6. I cast Hierarch and pass the turn. He keeps Swinging and my Hierarch gets joined by yet another Hierarch! At this point I could actually race the Slivers so 1 Hierarch goes farming and I take more damage. I draw into a third Hierarch and cast it and swing in! He has another StP for my Hierarch but I gained a ridiculous amount of life so I have time to draw non-land cards! I am still getting rocked by 6 a turn and I get him to a point where I can actually win by attacking with Hierarch the sacking it and recurring it VIA Volrath's Stronghold! I do this for a little but soon realize I have to try and draw something, after a 4th sliver hits the board! I draw into Spiritmonger and Goyf and some lands and StP, cast them and Goyf gets Dazed (I cast them both in the same turn because I was forced to put pressure on him)!!!!! I get him down to 5 life and I am at 4 with Spiritmonger on the board and he has 2 Slivers (1 Muscle). He drew into his lone Hibernation Sliver and had the game won but since I was recurring Hierarch with Stronghold he wanted to try and bluff that he had FoW and then EOT vial in the winning Sliver after blocking Spiritmonger! he should have cast Hibernation Sliver and blocked, bounced it, and THEN Vialed it in. But instead he passes the turn and I recur Hierarch and swing with Spiritmonger he Vials in Hibernation Sliver and blocks then bounces and realizes the mistake! I am at 8 life and he can't possibly win! Next turn I swing into he creatures with both my dudes and he is forced to block at 3 life! YES!!! Barely pulled it out after he drew into 3 StP (last 1 avoived by sacking Hierarch), double Daze, FoW, and an insane curve!

game 2: A lot less epic. He does some weird stuff and I drop turn 2 Elder, turn 3 E Plague naming Slivers, turn 4 E Plague naming Slivers and he extends him hand! Go Engineered Plague!

Round 3: B/W/g Confidant with Goyf
Game 1: He mulls to 5 and gets stuck on Wastelands and does very fast to Doran and Hierarch!

game 2: 8 basic lands are the way to go!! And 23 is certainly not to many! I get 3x Sinkholed, 2x Vindicated, 3x Wastelanded and he dies to double STE and Goyf! After I remove his threats!

This deck really has so many answers its just crazy!

Round 4: ID

Round 5: ID

Top 8:
Round 6: Countersliver
game 1: I Thoughtseize his Crystalline and that stops him cold! Doran and Hierarch but him on an insane clock! And after I Swords his Muscle Sliver (he had 3-4 slivers in play) he is forced to start blocking and loses shortly after!

game 2: He mulls to 6 and gets stuck on 1 land and double vial for 3 turns! I decide to bait his counters with Deed and he FoWs it. I then drop E Plague on Slivers and follow that up with another E Plague on Slivers! I love that card! I can't draw threats but he is in such bad shape now it doesn't matter! I draw into Thoughtseize and take his lone K Grip (could not cast it still on 2 lands!) and then won shortly after with double Hierarch!

The top 4 decided to split the prize and play for the Force of Will which was donated by Super Games! I played against Burn and lost in a very close matchup. Game 3 I had it won. But, this is not a joke, he drew 12 action spells IN A ROW and managed to beat me. I really had the game won had I not drawn double Krosan Grip and more lands! It was bad luck but .. it happens.

Anyway here is how I sideboarded in the matchups and I found the best way to handle burn:

Against Burn: -3 Spiritmonger, -3 Deed, +3 Grip, +3 E Plague! E Plague stops Grim Lavamancer, Mogg Fanatics from ever damaging you, and Ball Lightning (if they run it). Look at it this way, its a hell of a lot better than Deed! And Grip if you expect Sulfuric Vortex or something similar. Deed is just to slow dealing with Vortex!

Against Countersliver: -3 Spiritmonger, -1 Vindicate, +4 E Plague. I was very tempted to put Choke in as well but it is not all that good against them. They have Vial and free counters and can easily aggro you out. Point is, Choke is more of a stall card for them rather than an answer. You would much rather draw into Goyfs and Deeds when you are in topdeck mode rather than Choke!

One final thing about the deck. I think the Crime/Punishment should be a 3rd Top. I love Crime/Punishment but there were a few games where I was really wanting to draw a Top and C/P would not have had much of an effect. As far as the SB goes, I am very dissatisfied with Leyline in the SB. I don't use it at all. I am tempted to put 3x Extirpate and a Relic in those 4 slots!

citanul
11-18-2008, 03:53 AM
Grats on the result. Nice report, I also think that CounterSlivers is a good match up, to much removal for them to handle. They need damn good draws to win or plenty of Crystaline, man I hate that sliver.

Pee-Dee-2
11-18-2008, 06:21 PM
Hey guys,

it's not that typical Rock, but I played this at the Dutch Legacy Championships and finished at 9th place. Some people asked me for the decklist and here it is:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jötun Grunt
2 Eterna Witness
2 Loxodon hierarch
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Savannah
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstaines Mire
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains


Sideboard

3 Extirpate
3 Choke
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip

So my score was 6:2 in Rounds.

I played against:

1st: Rock 1:0:1
2st: Loam 2:0
3rd: Sliver 2:1
4th: TES 0:2
5th: NQG/r 2:0
6th: Sliver 2:0
7th: team America 0:2
8th: Goyf Sligh 2:0

The best cards were Kitchen Finks and Choke. They've won me games. In the future, I don't know if I would run 4 Seizes and Therapys.But I expected many U/x decks. Sometimes, I boarded Therapys out, although it's very good with the finks. Test it out and you'll see.

citanul
11-19-2008, 02:52 AM
Aw 9th, just missing top8 out of 140+ people. Nice result though and grats on that. Choke looks very solid, just let them tap out, Therapy or Thoughtseize a possible FoW and drop Choke. I'll probably run 4 Choke sideboard over 4 Duress in Mol next weekend. Kitchen Finks is a decent card. Not only the lifegain but the ability to be a 2 for 1 makes it fit for Rock decks.

What did you find of the Jotun Grunt's? I myself find them to be so good, a 4/4 for 2 mana and the upkeep cost is actually a benefit, especially against Loam or other graveyard decks. Gaddock Teeg, has he been usefull? Can only imagine you siding him in against TES. You lost that one so I doubt he was much of a help.

I'm also curious about the Team America match. What made you lose? Fast beats with disruption for your removal, land destruction combined with Stifles on your Fetchland?

Pee-Dee-2
11-19-2008, 06:25 AM
Thanks for the gratulation. Ok, I'll tell some details:

1) The Grunt is a good card of course. But I think 2 are enough. You won't have him in the opening hand, becuase you can't cast him except you are playing against NQG or Loam.

2) Teeg is a god card. I boarded him against TES and Goyf Sligh. Against TES I lost the first game after I emptyd his hand with 2 Thoughtseize and 4 Therapys!!! In the second game, I hold a hand with:
Therapy, Thoughtseize, Teeg, Extirpate, Goyf, Land after taking a mulligan. I played my Bayou and he showedme the kombo in hand. My Chance was to draw a land during the next 2 turns but it failed.
I drew the land, when he already have done 12 EtW token. GG

I boarded him aso against sligh, because he is one more beater and he is an answer against Fireblast. I boarded out the discardspells.

3) Team America: In the first game, he played 3 Sinkholes and 1 Wasteland during his first 4 turns and stifled one Fetchie. Then, he cast a Tombstalker...

In the second game he had no Sinkhole, but all counter he needed for my Swords and Vindicates. He won the damagerace with one Tombstalker against my 3/4 Goyf and my Witness. When he killed me, he had 4 Lifepoints left!

Meybe I would change 1-3 discardspells (by putting them into the sideboard, replacing the Teegs) with f.e. Unearth. Unearth is a mighty card with all creatures I play except the both hierarch.

Captain Hammer
11-22-2008, 01:07 AM
What defines a Rock deck. Is it the colors, or is it the presence of Pernicious Deed, even inspite of it's dyssynergy with solid threats like Goyfs and Doran that The Rock has access to. Or does any aggro control black based deck spashing white and green count as The Rock.

I'm just wondering because I've seen the below list played before and I'm wondering whether this deck qualifies as The Rock. It certainly seems like a faster more aggressive path to take the deck down.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker
3 Doran, The Siege Tower

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate
2 Reanimate

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Personally, I think it should count. At the very least, Tombstalker deserves consideration in every single The Rock list out there.

The other reason I ask is that a person playing a Type 2 BWG Deck playing craploads of Planeswalkers accompanied with Wraths of God and Damnations and such took top 4 in a local tournament, even beating Landstill decks. Planeswalkers seem to have a lot of untapped potential, esp given their synergy with board sweepers. So that seems like a worthwhile direction to explore.

citanul
11-22-2008, 07:30 AM
It was explained in the original topic, Hope it will be fixed soon :).
Rock was a Green/Black deck first using Deranged Hermit and Phyrexian Plaguelord. It also had hand control and some board control. Later the Hermit and Lord got removed and big creatures such as Spiritmonger where added.

What I think that defines a deck to be Rock is the following:
- Has Black and Green. White is a splash that not everyone runs.
- Is a board control deck.
- Has hand disruption.
- Runs big creatures and also utility creatures.
- Is a mid or late game deck.

If you look at Uri Peleg's deck at Worlds, that was a Rock deck. It ran hand disruption, big/utility creatures and some board control.



Planeswalkers seem to have a lot of untapped potential, esp given their synergy with board sweepers. So that seems like a worthwhile direction to explore.


Planeswalkers seem to be good in Legacy, few decks can handle them. For Rock the obvious choices would be: Ajani, Garruk, Elspeth or Liliana Ves.
Just like the Rock itself, these cards are Mid and/or late game cards. So if you would play them you should remove a card that is ment for these stages of the game.

There are only two that I would consider: Garruk or Ajani. Garruk seems like a win more card but the ability to keep pumping 3/3 or untapping to cast big spells attracts me. Ajani just sounds better to me because it can help in the bad match ups by gaining you those extra points of life or making your creatures bigger and able to attack+block thanks to the vigilance.

Captain Hammer
11-22-2008, 01:44 PM
Yeah, I'm surprised that Planeswalkers aren't more popular in legacy.

In addition to the two you listed, Sarkdan Vol and that Planeswalker that's a one sided Armageddon are very strong too.

Combined with board sweepers like Deed and possibly Damnation/Wrath along with some StPs and other removal, and you have a very strong deck. Don't know if it could still be called The Rock though. I'll leave it to someone else to come up with the complete list.

As for the list I posted, I'm not so sure about The Rock's Deeds anymore. Spritmonger used to be good sure.

But now, we have Tarmogoyf, Doran, Mytic Enforcer and Tombstalker all of which are just as strong or stronger than Spiritmonger, but at a signfiicantly cheaper mana cost.

It seems like a shame to not run them because of Deed. And like I said, I see absoultely no reason why every Rock list shouldn't be playing Tombstalker atleast. It gets around Deed, and can be cast for very little mana usually.

Pulp_Fiction
11-22-2008, 02:03 PM
@ Captain Hammer: Personal preference. Spiritmonger is hella better than Tombstalker in the deck but that is my opinion and lets not start a debate over which fatty is better because they both do the same thing ... win fast; but Spiritmingers regeneration AND color changing have been relevant to winning games (ever encountered Sword if Light and Shadow)? The list you posted looks like Eva Green with white in it and looks very geared towards pure disruptive aggro mode. The Rock is a semi-disruptive board control deck that is geared for the mid-late game but also can go super aggro (thanks to 3 mana 5/5s) and thrive in the early game VIA StP and Thoughtseize/Duress/Therapy.

Personally I think Planeswalkers are not underused in Legacy, because I think they are awful in this format. Now in a deck that is specifically suited for them like Mono-Black control, they could run Liliana Vess and have it be effective but they would most likely fall into the danger of cute things zone. They are highly unnecessary in a deck like Rock IMOP. Some build could be adjusted to run Garruk sure, but Ajani is super slow and why would you rather cast this than Spiritmonger or Tombstalker? Planeswalkers are not the super threat in this format that they are in standard, when you cast Spiritmonger your opponent has to have an answer NOW or lose fast, against Garruk all they have to do is Lightning Bolt or something and you plan is stalled. Garruk is good in Elves but that is about it for this format until people start playing Death Cloud.

Captain Hammer
11-22-2008, 03:40 PM
Well, compared to Tombstalker the main problems with Spiritmonger are that it doesn't have evasion.

And it costs five mana, where as Tombstalker, Doran and Goyf all cost you between 2-3 mana. Not only do you have less to fear from mana screw, Wastelands, Sinkholes, Stifles and other effects, you can play and beat with them earlier, and later on, you can cast them along side Hymn to Tourach, or Vindicate, or blow up a deed before casting them or something.

I can see how the low cc can be a disadvantage with Deed. But Tombstalker gets around that along with being able to ignore chump blockers altogether.

Unlike SOFI, SOLS is pretty much only played in one deck, and a very underplayed deck at that (due to the rarity of Sea Drakes).

Usually, color changing pretty much only matters for the following cards...

REB, BEB, SOFI, Snuff Out, Ghastly Demise, Shriekmaw.

Tombstalker already gets around all of these cards.

I do disagree with you on Planeswalkers. They have a lot of untapped potential. Few legacy decks are equipped to deal with them properly, almost no one plays burn anymore, and you can create a lot of assymetry by using effects such as Deed, Wrath, Disk and Damnation.

throst54
11-22-2008, 04:12 PM
Spirit Monger is too slow against decks that you need to play the aggro role in and he doesnt have evasion. And for 5 mana, he should win you the game, not be an 'infinite goyf blocker'.

You like looks more like funkbrew, or a pikula eva green hybrid.
Theres nothing wrong with running deed and Goyf in the same deck. Your primary concern is to control the board, and once you've done that you drop a goyf and lay in the beats.
However, with how fast the format is, you need some kinda of mana acceleration to speed out deed to get rid of early rushes. (while you dont always have to, you need to be able to)

What your list lacks that most rock decks include is Pernicious Deed and Eternal Wtiness.
Not that you must play them, but I'd like to hear your reasoning behind not giving them a spot.

Illissius
11-22-2008, 04:22 PM
What defines a Rock deck. Is it the colors, or is it the presence of Pernicious Deed, even inspite of it's dyssynergy with solid threats like Goyfs and Doran that The Rock has access to. Or does any aggro control black based deck spashing white and green count as The Rock.

I'm just wondering because I've seen the below list played before and I'm wondering whether this deck qualifies as The Rock. It certainly seems like a faster more aggressive path to take the deck down.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker
3 Doran, The Siege Tower

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate
2 Reanimate

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Personally, I think it should count. At the very least, Tombstalker deserves consideration in every single The Rock list out there.

That looks like Eva Green with a white splash to me (and also vaguely like Hanni's Rockguy). The Rock is a midrange deck with green mana acceleration which aims to win the mid to late game via superior resources and favorable exchanges on the board. BoP and Deed are "Rock cards", Ritual and Sinkhole are not. In Legacy, I would say running Pernicious Deed is very nearly a necessary condition to be called The Rock.

I would put the various BGx decks in the following order from most aggressive to most controllish:

Eva Green - Rockguy - The Rock - Tombstone - Truffle Shuffle

- Eva Green is aggro, singlemindedly focused on speed and disruption, uses Rituals, and doesn't run cards like Dark Confidant (or Deed).

- Rockguy is midrange, focused on resource denial, probably runs Dark Confidant, and can use either Birds or Rituals.

- The Rock is midrange, win by favorable trades on the board and runs Birds (or other green mana) and Deeds. It's midrange in almost every respect: it has some discard, some spot removal, some mass removal, some creatures, maybe some mana disruption, maybe some card draw, but isn't focused on any one of them.

- Tombstone is control, uses cheap, fat guys and Harmonize, probably uses Birds, and probably doesn't run Deed (but could, I think).

- Truffle Shuffle is control, runs expensive, fat guys, and a metric fuckton of removal. Doesn't necessarily have acceleration.

Pee-Dee-2
11-22-2008, 07:26 PM
Why do we make differences between Rock, Rockguy, Evagreen and co. It doesn't matter who a deckis called.
The origin Rock was a Deck with birds/Rampant Growth/Yavimaya Elder etc., Spiritmonger and deed. The gameplan was to control the bird, drop a fettie and win.

During my testing for Dutch championships, I found out, that I would have the choice between manaacceleration like Birds and Elder and cards like Kitchen Finks. Why did I settle on Finks? Becuase it's bigger as a bird or an elder. It gives me 4 life and has 2 lifes. I can sacrifice it without carddisadvantage. AND in a meta with tempothrash, NQG and other decks with green. You can blow Mongose and tarmos away by keeping your 3/2 fattie Finks!

Why no tomstalker and why confis? Confidant is an easy choice. I ran a black/x deck. I need carddraw and a confi can make damage. So I wanted to play him. I never wawanted to play a card like harmonize - no.

No Tombstalker? Yes, because it is too big for my confi and I didn't wanted to play SDT like some versions do. And with Tarmos and Grunts, the stalker sn't the best choice.

What to play must everybody decide by himself. I would play this deck without changes again. Maybe playing Unearth and cut 2 discardspells. But the deck is very powerful and can handle every type of opponent's deck!

throst54
11-23-2008, 02:19 AM
Mostly because all of those decks, while in the same colors, function differently.

Not to nitpick, but the original Rock was designed around Phyrexian Plaguelord and Deranged Hermit :p

Dont compare mana acceleration and Kitchen finks, Mana accel comes down turn one while finks is turn 3... the closest similiarity is a 'good' candidate for sac'ing to therapy... which you dont run.

Pee-Dee-2
11-23-2008, 04:13 PM
Why not playing Therapy? I don't run this? For sure I do. It wins you games and is often better than thoughtseize.

I don't compare accelaration with Finks. I mean, most controldecks are slow and get a lot of damage during the first rounds. The accelaration is giving you a speed-up, so you can clear the board one or two turns earlier.

So does finks work, but in a different way. The speed is the same, but the damage you receive will be negated by the lifegain. The Problem with f.e. birds is, they die on each deed.
The Problem with the Elder is: You have many two-drops. Why playing Elder, when you can cast a Goofy, Grunt, Confidant or something else?

citanul
11-24-2008, 03:47 AM
The gameplan was to control the bird, drop a fettie and win.


This made me smile :).

Went to Mol yesterday, 57 people showed up. I went 4-0-2, ending 5th in the swiss and lost to Goblins, the eventual winner with 0-2. I'll write a report soon and edit this post with the link.

On topic:
- Tombstalker: I find it to be the best creature in my list. It's a cheap 5/5 flyer, survives Deed, shrinks enemy Tarmogoyfs. This doesn't mean you have to cut SpiritMonger for it but for Rock decks with no acceleration this is the way to go.

- Dark Confidant: Your opponent just has to deal with him. The only disadvantage is the life loss so you have to keep your curve low, at least limited in high CC. I do not think every Rock should play it but a card to consider.

- Original Rock was indeed with Deranged Hermit and Phyrexian Plaguelord. Goddamnit when will the main post be fixed!

- Can't compare BoP/Sakura against Kitchen Finks, they have a different role. Pee-Dee-2's arguments aren't that good on this issue to me. BoP might die to every Deed but it allows you to Deed faster and for more. Can be tapped for mana, then sacced to Therapy then blow the Deed. The Sakura argument is also flawed. Sakura is played for it's rampant growth effect while being able to chump just like every other2 drop has it's own utility. It all depends on the deck.

Pee-Dee-2
11-24-2008, 04:05 AM
Did I say "control the bird..." Oh :confused:

For sure, birds, elder and Finks aren't the same. The choice depends on the gameplan. I didn't say that everyone schould play finks instead of the acc. In my opinion and in my testings, it was the better choice.

The same for Tombstalker, one of the best cards in that format. But I would never play him with confidant and Grunt in the same deck.

@citanul: Why did you lost against Goblins? What happend? And you said, you were going 5-0-2. Against which decks you drew?

citanul
11-24-2008, 05:02 AM
I went 4-0-2. I'm writing the report now so be patient :). I drew twice against MUC. I was standing 3-0-0 after defeating Welder Survival, UW Standstill and Team America with 2-0. Then I was paired against Fahad MUC, played by a friend in my team so we ID'ed. Just one more win for the both of us during the next 2 matches. I then got paired against Ilja with UWB standstill which I won 2-0. Then ID again against Fahad MUC, now being played by Fahad himself.

Goblins just got the best of me. You'll see what went wrong in the report.

EDIT: Report can be found at http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=295980#post295980

throst54
12-16-2008, 03:42 AM
Heres the deck I played in the MWS tourney:


// Lands
4 Bayou
3 Forest
5 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
4 Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
2 Shriekmaw
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Veteran Explorer

// Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Putrefy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
1 Tombstalker
2 Cranial Extraction
4 Extirpate
4 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt

The sideboard was *really* weak, I threw it together in a hurry to get my decklist in,
Korlash and Veteran explorer is crazy as far as mana ramping goes.
Ideal situation is T1 Thoughtseize into turn 2 explorer +dbl Therapy. Now that thier hand is stripped, drop a goyf or play top.
Veteran Explorer is awesome, though you have to know when to 'crack' him.
Korlash is a great beater, he can get big very quickly. Being able to regenerate is awesome, though not having evasion has led to lost games.

Why no splash? It makes the mana base weaker, made it more complicated to get all swamps for korlash, and it makes the deck more consistant.
All I miss out from not running white is StP and Vindicate. I dont miss vindicate, and not having a 1cc removal spell hasnt lost me any games. Only against burn have I missed StP or Hierarch. The white splash I'd argue is very useful in a more aggro oriented Rock, but in an control version like this, it isnt needed.

Heres the deck I've tested into using-



// Beatdown//
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Deity of Scars

//Utility//
3 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Discard//
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize

//Removal//
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Smother
4 Pernicious Deed

// Lands//
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
5 Forest
2 Polluted Delta
5 Swamp
2 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

// Sideboard//
3 Extirpate
4 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Haunting Echoes
2 Hymn to Tourach

I briefly tried out Spiritmonger in the Deity of Scars slot, though the lack of evasion was less than spectacular.
Deity of Scars has everything I want- can chump a goyf (or kill it), regenerate under a deed, and can trample over 1/1s.
Fleshbag Marauder, I've been trying this guy out instead of Shriekmaw.
This way he can get rid of tombstalkers and Mongeese. Also, he gives me another way to sac veteran explorer- though this is just a bonus, not a reason to run him. However, being able to sac eternal witness and recur her with Stronghold is a strong play.

TheLion
12-16-2008, 04:27 AM
Great decklist imo!
I dont like the W splash neither. But I dont like the Goyf/Deed dissynergy...
I am unsure of Deity of Scars vs. Spiritmonger, too. Monger is a little easier to cast... and grows faster and more, while he has no trample.

I am currently testing this list:

// 23
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
5 Swamp
7 Forest
2 Treetop Village

// 24
3 Living Wish
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Putrefy
3 Harmonize
2 Sensei's Divining Top

// 13
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Spiritmonger
2 Chameleon Colossus

Sideboard: 15
1 Shriekmaw
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Tombstalker
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Withered Wretch
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrashing Wumpus
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip


I think Harmonize and Living Wish are really good in a control version.
Chameleon Colossus is hard to remove and a way to use your much mana.


I am unsure about Relic vs Extirpate in the SB.

throst54
12-16-2008, 05:32 AM
Its okay to play Goyf and Deed in the same deck- its just a matter of knowing what role you're playing in the matchup. Not to mention you can usually recur your goyf. Dropping a goyf and a deed is sometimes the right play. You apply pressure and force them to either remove goyf, deed, or make them play out creatures of thier own.

Wish seems too slow in the format, I think its best application is to wish for big creatures/silver bullets in a deck where you want to run confidant.

citanul
12-16-2008, 06:26 AM
All I miss out from not running white is StP and Vindicate. I dont miss vindicate, and not having a 1cc removal spell hasnt lost me any games. Only against burn have I missed StP or Hierarch. The white splash I'd argue is very useful in a more aggro oriented Rock, but in an control version like this, it isnt needed.


'Only' StP and Vindicate. Still a personal preference :). I actually quoted it for a different reason, you mentioned burn and lacking the life gain. You can always try Kitchen Finks, it can be cast with 1GG, used for Therapy, survives a deed and more. Great replacement for Hierarch if you don't play White. That or you can go back to Ravenous Baloth.



Its okay to play Goyf and Deed in the same deck- its just a matter of knowing what role you're playing in the matchup.


Also, if you have a goyf in play and are forced to use a deed to get board control then the opponent will lose a lot to since it would've beaten a goyf.

Captain Hammer
12-16-2008, 11:32 AM
I'm surprised the OP still isn't up yet. :eek:

Anyways, quick question. Eva Green vs. The Rock. Which deck would have the advantage in that matchup and why? Both are very similar decks but Eva Green operates on a much lower/faster curve.

citanul
12-16-2008, 12:58 PM
Yeah, got the Original Topic still backed up so can PM, post or mail it if you want.

I think Rock has the advantage if it plays enough removal. Eva Green is fast but has a much weaker mid/late game compared to Rock. An SDT turn 1 to float removal usually makes Rock win. Their discard is to limited to keep you disrupted etc. In that Match up Rock has to play the control role and switch to agressive once it gets into mid game.

Definitly in Rock's advantage if you run enough removal.

Shabbaman
12-17-2008, 08:49 AM
Korlash and Veteran explorer is crazy as far as mana ramping goes.
Ideal situation is T1 Thoughtseize into turn 2 explorer +dbl Therapy. Now that thier hand is stripped, drop a goyf or play top.
Veteran Explorer is awesome, though you have to know when to 'crack' him.
Korlash is a great beater, he can get big very quickly. Being able to regenerate is awesome, though not having evasion has led to lost games.


At least you get my mad props (not actually worth anything) for playing Korlash. I've been trying to build a competitive korlash control build for some time (with a casual nature because of the obligatory Korlash inclusion). Just to show I could... Anyway, Rizzo has written an article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/extended/15395_Feature_Article_Extended_Tech_Size_Does_Matter.html) series on a pre-rotation rock deck build around mana ramping. It's highly amusing', that's why I'm posting this. The main message is that mana ramping plus Cabal coffers is insane... yet with wasteland running around probably a bit risky in Legacy.

It's about time the OP comes back up, especially as it was a very good read! And a thread in the dtb-forum deserves such a nice OP.

throst54
12-17-2008, 04:51 PM
Korlash did well, there were a number of things that mad him bad though:
-Not playing all swamps
-Land destruction
-any of the dreadnought decks that play Vision Charm
He was good against control though, when the deck wanted to go full out aggro he could end the game in a couple of turns after being cast. Not to mention I could often ramp mana up enough to kill tombstalkers.

Deity of Scars just works out better to say the least.
The Rock should be able to take Eva Green everytime. If we last to the midgame (and we should 2/3 times at the very least) we will win the matchup.

Would you play kitchen finks or try and fit it the MD?

idraleo
12-17-2008, 06:12 PM
With Korlash and Explorer's, why not try a couple/3off Death Cloud on maindeck?

citanul
12-18-2008, 02:54 AM
Would you play kitchen finks or try and fit it the MD?


I've been trying to get it in my list yes, to improve the Goblin/Burn/Goyf Sligh Match Up's. So far I lose to much consistency against other decks by the cards I cut to keep the Finks in those spots. I tried cutting 1 of several cards such as Life from the Loam, Jotun Grunt and a Shriekmaw to have 3 Finks but Agro Loam, Standstill, Dreadstill all became worse. I tried cutting an entire pacakge of cards such as Grunts or Shriekmaws or Tombstalker + a card but it seems to affect other MU's to much.

I'll keep on testing because I started to like the Finks. The same should go for a 2 color build. Finks can be cast with green alone, replaces Hierarch in a way, synergy with Deed/Therapy, chumps twice if needed. I'd try to give them a MD spot, at least 3 of them if you can.

e=mc^2
12-18-2008, 02:38 PM
With Korlash and Explorer's, why not try a couple/3off Death Cloud on maindeck?

You could play a version with a Living Wish toolbox and Vexing Shusher and Boseiju, Who Shelters all in the SB.

rockout
12-18-2008, 03:01 PM
Dear Santa,

I want The Rock to start running Death Cloud. I no longer want my iPhone or my new bowling ball as long as I can see someone gripping spell snare get their board wiped by Death Cloud like the days of watching ext MTGO and rofling in silence to the wincing of players.

Make it so please,
Mike

TheLion
12-18-2008, 03:09 PM
Dear Santa,

I want The Rock to start running Death Cloud. I no longer want my iPhone or my new bowling ball as long as I can see someone gripping spell snare get their board wiped by Death Cloud like the days of watching ext MTGO and rofling in silence to the wincing of players.

Make it so please,
Mike

Dear rockout,

Try it out with Oversold Cemetery, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Veteran Explorer, Shriekmaw, maybe Korlash, maybe Loam/Raven's Crime or Crucible or Worlds and you'll see, it isn't actually that bad.

Kind regards,
Santa

rockout
12-18-2008, 03:12 PM
@ Thelion: I totally agree. I think death cloud is an absolute must in a deck running any with a when-this-card-hits-the-graveyard-effects. It's a beast in the control match-up as well.

throst54
12-18-2008, 03:58 PM
You could play a version with a Living Wish toolbox and Vexing Shusher and Boseiju, Who Shelters all in the SB.

In a format where explosive starts are huge, Living Wish for silver bullets is too slow.
Against combo by the time you get a piece of hate you'll probably be dead or so far behind you'll only barely slow them down.
Against goblins and a turn 1 dreadnought you'll already be dead as well.
This is from a lot of testing with wish.
If you want to run it you have got to be able to slow the game down dramatically.

Im not sure about death cloud, I've always loved the card- but its a different deck than the rock.
Is there a thread started for that? Forgive me now for necro'ing it later this week.

I'll try finks out as a 2 of I guess, not sure if I want to see him often enough, and Im not sure what else to cut for him atm.

rockout
12-18-2008, 04:04 PM
You know what else isn't bad with Death Cloud? Kitchen Finks. :wink:

Is Kitchen Finks replacing Hierarch? I hope not.

citanul
12-18-2008, 04:20 PM
Is Kitchen Finks replacing Hierarch? I hope not.


It should if you don't play White.

Solpugid
12-18-2008, 05:41 PM
I could see spike feeder getting the nod over finks in some metas, since you can gain all four life immediately (this may be important), and it makes your goyfs win goyf fights. Just something to consider.

rockout
12-18-2008, 05:45 PM
It should if you don't play White.

Isn't the rock naturally GBW? Replacing white is similar to replacing blue in thresh/landstill builds, it just doesn't seem to work correctly. I'll have to do more testing I guess.

citanul
12-19-2008, 02:59 AM
Isn't the rock naturally GBW?


Originally it was Green Black. Even now Green Black midgame/lategame decks are still called the Rock.
Most versions do run the white splash these days but someone a few posts back posted his BG list saying he missed Hierarch, hence the Kitchen Finks suggestion.

Pulp_Fiction
12-19-2008, 04:18 AM
The Rock also used to run Phyrexian Plaguelord and Deranged Hermit! A few months ago I encountered Sol Malka (creator of the Rock) at an extended tournament and he is playing GBr now for Burning Wish and Contested Cliffs with Ravenous Baloths and Spiritmonger. However, Sol (I heard this from someone) doesn't think The Rock is very viable in legacy. Not sure if this is true but this is what I heard. Also, at the Atlanta Grand Prix Legacy Side Event (where I made it to a top 4 split with Rock:) I saw Sol and walked up to him and asked his thoughts on the deck for legacy. He really thinks the red splash as Contested Cliffs is nuts. I am not sure how effective this would be in a format with recurring Wastelands but I think Burning Wish is just to slow for an already slow midrange control deck!

I personally don't see why you would not run white since you get Doran, Vindicate, and StP but if solid G/B works, then play it. I just don't see why it would be better in any way. You have a 3 mana 5/5 that stalls Goblins and nullifies Piledriver. And the best instant and sorcery speed spot removal spells ever printed.

@throst54: Why would you ever run Diety of Scars over Spiritmonger? Spiritmonger is spectacular in every way, they have the same casting cost, they both regenerate, Spiritmonger gets bigger and changes colors (more relevant than you think). Diety kills puny creatures that don't matter anyway or makes Goyf smaller .... if you are having problems dealing with Goyf in a Rock deck I suggest a new build. I just don't understand why you would not run Spiritmonger over Diety.

Regarding Death Cloud, that is a whole other deck. It has not place in Rock as the deck has to be designed to handle it. And the only thing they will have in common is they are both G/B. I am not saying Death Cloud is bad in legacy, quite the opposite, I think the deck has a lot of potential. But it won't be in a Rock shell it will be a totally different deck. Most likely it will play Deed but thats just because Deed is that damn good!

citanul
12-19-2008, 05:31 AM
The Rock also used to run Phyrexian Plaguelord and Deranged Hermit! A few months ago I encountered Sol Malka (creator of the Rock) at an extended tournament and he is playing GBr now for Burning Wish and Contested Cliffs with Ravenous Baloths and Spiritmonger. However, Sol (I heard this from someone) doesn't think The Rock is very viable in legacy. Not sure if this is true but this is what I heard. Also, at the Atlanta Grand Prix Legacy Side Event (where I made it to a top 4 split with Rock:) I saw Sol and walked up to him and asked his thoughts on the deck for legacy. He really thinks the red splash as Contested Cliffs is nuts. I am not sure how effective this would be in a format with recurring Wastelands but I think Burning Wish is just to slow for an already slow midrange control deck!

I personally don't see why you would not run white since you get Doran, Vindicate, and StP but if solid G/B works, then play it. I just don't see why it would be better in any way. You have a 3 mana 5/5 that stalls Goblins and nullifies Piledriver. And the best instant and sorcery speed spot removal spells ever printed.


Red doesn't fit in Legacy Rock. If Goyf wasn't around you could replace StP with Bolts for early removal plus Burning Wish for a bullet side. But a Bolt never takes down a Goyf so not really possible. Same goes for Contested Cliffs, sounds bad. Possibly one activation but for what? We manage to deal with creatures already in a more efficient way.

I never stated that white shouldn't be run in Rock. I think it was the natural evolution as the metagame got faster. I just replied on one person's post where he talked about a G/B Build. I do disagree with the Doran Statement. It is only good if you run early game mana fixers such as BoP or Sakura-tribe Elder else it's virtually impossible to make decend one drops, two drops followed by a turn3 Doran with such a mana cost.

throst54
12-19-2008, 06:10 AM
The only real things you get out of red in legacy rock are Jund Charm and Terminate.

When is changing colors relevant for Spiritmonger? I realize it can be, but how often?
The only widely played spells that mention color read 'nonblack'.

If you're going for an aggro oriented rock, splash white.
If you're more control oriented, splashing white is just preference.
A more consistant manabase can go a long way. And you make it a lot harder for any decks to keep you off one color.

I like deity of scars because he has trample. Spiritmonger has the same problem that tarmogoyf does, that is he can be chumped all day long. Primary beater is goyf- Diety and Stalker both have evasion so when I drop them I know i should be able to end the game quickly.
Whats the point in Spiritmonger getting bigger if he never gets through? Diety of Scars doesnt need to get bigger, he needs to attack and plow through blockers a couple of times.

Im still testing Diety, I may go back to 'monger but at this point it isnt looking like I will.
You should try him out and draw your own conclusions.

TheLion
12-19-2008, 08:33 AM
Chump blocking all day long? With what? Maybe they have something like STE or any other 1/1er, but there won't be any chump blockers for a long time, except they're playing Bitterblossom.
And if they only chump block, they are loosing anyway.
Furthermore, we play Deed and enough removal.
I never had problems with Spiritmonger beeing unefficient due to the lack of trample. I still like him more, due to the easy casting cost and it's other abilities. (though color changing weren't really relevant).

@Contested Cliffs: I tested it once as a 3-off, and once as a single Living Wish target. However, if you manage to get it going, you can completely control the board (creatures).
But in the end, I found, that a 3 color mana base, was to bad, and the colorless mana from Cliffs hurted too, so that I went back to BG only.

throst54
12-19-2008, 06:22 PM
One example is any deck running man lands and cruicible/loam.

Goblins, slivers, elves and to a lesser degree ichorid can stall the board with chump blockers.

If you're already playing BG w/o splash theres no reason not to test Deity.

If they are chump blocking they may be losing, but it also means its keeping you from winning.
It also means they they are stabilizing and finding are making time to find answers.
Time isnt something you want to give to your opponent- especially if its goblins.

Pulp_Fiction
12-19-2008, 07:26 PM
Both Monger and Diety would be sided out against fast aggro though so neither of them are any good against Goblins/Slivers. And the Lands! and Eternal Garden matchups are almost unwinnable. It would take a savage SB to defeat Lands!

throst54
12-19-2008, 08:01 PM
Running 2 instead of 3 colors against goblins makes thier waste/ports a lot less effective
If youre running veteran explorer you can generally accelerate into diety/monger quickly enough.
(However, you have to be careful w/ explorer and only pop him at the right time- IE after you've done a bit of discard and can judge from thier hand who will benefit more from the 2 lands)

I generally side in 2x Haunting Echoes against loam variants.
Or i side in 4x extirpate and 4x tormods- just depends on which SB im running.
I agree the matchup is a major pain in the ass- but it isnt unwinnable.

HAVE HEART
12-21-2008, 02:33 PM
And the Lands! and Eternal Garden matchups are almost unwinnable. It would take a savage SB to defeat Lands!

I tested against Eternal Garden and found that Tarmogoyf + hand disruption + Vindicate was usually good. There were the matchups where Crucible + Wasteland set up or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale + Maze of Ith came down, but I did not feel it was unwinnable.

char89
12-22-2008, 12:05 AM
i've been playing w/g/b rock for about a year now have have a pretty good deck but have a tough time deciding whether to run putrefy or vindicate i like them both but they both have there draw backs putrefy is an instant and they cant regenerate but it only hits creatures and artifacts but vindicate kills any permanent but its at a sorcery speed and they could regenerate. just want to hear peoples opinions also what do you think about running Doran and if you would how many?

citanul
12-22-2008, 02:59 AM
i've been playing w/g/b rock for about a year now have have a pretty good deck but have a tough time deciding whether to run putrefy or vindicate i like them both but they both have there draw backs putrefy is an instant and they cant regenerate but it only hits creatures and artifacts but vindicate kills any permanent but its at a sorcery speed and they could regenerate. just want to hear peoples opinions also what do you think about running Doran and if you would how many?

I'd go for Vindicate. More versatile and the possibilty to kill Enchantments (Counterbalance!) besides Deed. Doran depends on your list, if you run forms of mana fix/accel then you can run them with a maximum of 3.



I tested against Eternal Garden and found that Tarmogoyf + hand disruption + Vindicate was usually good. There were the matchups where Crucible + Wasteland set up or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale + Maze of Ith came down, but I did not feel it was unwinnable.


I actually have a good match up against it. I do run Loam, Wasteland and Grunt main so I manage to disrupt them heavily.

Ciberon
12-22-2008, 09:19 AM
This thread should have a decklist for those that aren't familliar with the deck.

citanul
12-22-2008, 09:44 AM
This thread should have a decklist for those that aren't familliar with the deck.

The original topic had the following:



5) Decklist

Since there are many variations between lists it will be hard to give one list. I’ll be posting a list with cards being used 99% of the time while leaving some slots open. Afterwards there will be a list of possible cards to run (see 4.2) in those slots followed by the decklist being used by me at this current moment.

5.1) Standard list:

Land: (22-23)
5-8 Fetchland
6-8 Duals
3-4 Wasteland
3-6 Basics
1-2 Volrath’s Stronghold

Creatures: (10-11)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2-3 Tombstalker

Instant/Sorcery: (11-12)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3-4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize

Artifact/Enchantment: (5-8)
3-4 Pernicious Deed
2-4 Sensei’s Divining Top

5.2) Remaining cards:

Creatures:

Jotun Grunt: A great card to run. It’s a 4/4 for 1W allowing you to slow down your opponents beatdown or applying fast pressure yourself. It’s cumulative upkeep is often used as graveyard hate or to restock your deck with cards already used. Usually being played with a maximum of 3.

Doran, the Siege Tower: Basicly a 5/5 for 3 mana. The problem with this creature lies within the triple coloured mana. List running Birds of Paradise can support this with more ease. Tombstalker tends to get the preference over this Elemental.

Eternal Witness: This creature is more fitting in a control Rock, returning the good cards back to your hand after already having used them. Great synergy with Volrath’s Stronghold.

Genesis: This card has been a staple for a long time, partially being one of the best cards in the deck. The card has to be in the graveyard to work as you desire. If you have ways of doing this it might be wise to play one.

Birds of Paradise: Is used to speed out your bigger cards to gain control over the board faster. Often being sacrificed to Cabal Therapy before blowing everything up with Pernicious Deed. With the printing of big creatures for a low casting cost this card has been cut from many lists.

Sakura-Tribe Elder: Barely sees play anymore. Before the printing of Tarmogoyf with the dominance of Goblins this card was used to stop an attacker while grabbing you extra land.

Shriekmaw: Replaces Smother in some lists. It has synergy with Volrath’s Stronghold while being a 3/2 body later in the game with some evasion. Also allows to play around Counterbalance. This can hurt with Dark Confidant and isn’t able to kill Artifact or Black creatures.

Kitchen Finks: The persist is what makes this card worth playing. Gaining you 4 life while generating a form of card advantage. You can chump block with it twice, sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy and let it live through some removal. Often found in a more control build.

Loxodon Hierarch: When Rock started using white as a third color this card replaced Ravenous Baloth. For almost the same mana cost you get the same effect but faster. Regenerating all your creatures can be considered a bonus. When compared to Tarmogoyf, the P/T of this card is bad for it’s casting cost. Played in control build.

Troll Ascetic: Can’t be targeted by your opponent while having the ability to regenerate. A hard creature to get rid of is the least you can say. A weak body compared to other options available. Can either be played in control or agro build but barely sees play these days. Keeping 1G open all the time doesn’t feel good to most players.

Wall of Blossoms: Basicly a cantrip that stops an attacker. This card has been in lists since the existence of Rock. If you want to have a better match against agro you should consider this. Tarmogoyfs tend to trump Wall of Blossoms but that doesn’t mean there won’t be other cards to block.

Veteran Explorer: Now that most metagames have shifted to playing several basics this card has gotten the axe. It was used to gain fast mana to cast bigger creatures than the opponent. Was also a great creature to sacrifice to a Cabal Therapy.

Gigapede: Just like Troll Ascetic, this is a hard card to get rid of. Having a power of 6 it kills as good as every creature to see play. The 1 toughness makes it very weak, often just resulting in trades. That’s where the second part comes in handy, this one returns to your hand if you only discard a card. Due to this being a strain on your mana it mostly sees play in control builds.

Removal:

Smother: Kills almost any creature present in Legacy for 1B at instant speed. Lists that don’t play Shriekmaw tend to play Smother.

Diabolic Edict: Usually played in older lists. Preference goes to removal where you can choose what will die.

Engineered Explosives: An extra board sweeper alongside Pernicious Deed. Used to play around Counterbalance. Also able to kill a bunch of tokens on turn2 where Deed would only do it on turn3.

Discard:

Duress: Is a card of preference. Some play this to have more selection discard alongside Thoughtseize or just replace Thoughtseize completely.

Hymn to Tourach: Extra discard. A commonly used form of card advantage. The double black in it’s casting costs while begging to be cast early in the game forces your deck to run more black.

Cabal Therapy: Since the arrival of Thoughtseize this does not see much play. The cutting of Birds of Paradise also played a role.

Raven’s Crime: When combined with Life from the Loam this card can be a powerhouse. Also an outlet for excess land.

Utility:

Life from the Loam: Since Rock is a Board Control deck it tends to require lots of mana, Loam makes sure you can get back fetchland, Wasteland or destroyed land. Great in combination with Sensei’s Divining Top to dig for the right cards.

Extirpate: There’s a lot of discussion about this card. Some like it so much they run it maindeck while others won’t even think about running it in the sideboard. Personally I find it either ‘Win More’ or ‘Doesn’t do enough’.

Umezawa’s Jitte: Some people like to play this card to provide themselves with lifegain. This card does improve the match up against decks with direct damage but sacrifices others.

Unearth: Brings back cards that you hoped not to be death. The possibility to cycle this card when it would be useless makes it worth playing.

Living Wish: At the cost of some tempo you can either have a creature/land toolbox at your disposal or grab a kill. This card is mostly played in a control build since agro doesn’t want to spend the extra 2 mana.

Call of the Herd: Before the arrival in the Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance era most lists played this card. It forced the opponents to deal with 2 creatures often giving you card advantage.

Harmonize: A card draw spell in green is pretty Uncommon. Mostly played in control build but several agro lists do run it to keep their threats coming.

Recurring Nightmare: It brings back any creature back from the death if you are willing to sacrifice another. Returning it to your hand makes it reusable as many times as you want/can. In combination with cards that have a CiP effect this Nightmare can generate lots of card advantage.

Worm Harvest: A great finisher against plenty of decks. Combined with Life from the Loam you can keep on Harvesting Wurms. Also a great outlet for excess land.

Land:

Treetop Village: Was used in the old GB lists to start beating after sweeping the board. Coming into play tapped in a much faster Legacy environment proved to be to disadvantageous.

Mishra’s Factory: The current replacement for Treetop Village. 3/3 blocker on turn2 stops lots of deck from fast beats. Great against control decks, often catching the opponents by surprise.

Sideboard:

Your sideboard is dependant on your metagame. I will only provide a list of possibilities. If the card has already been mentioned in the previous part of the listing then I will not give it further explanation.

Krosan Grip: Every green deck plays this card sideboard. Counterbalance seems to be a problem card for The Rock due to the curve being at 1 to 3 mana.

Duress: See Discard.

Extirpate: See Utility.

Thorn of Amethyst: Great against combo such as TES, FT, AdN and more. The first one hitting the table often slows down the opponent long enough to find a second or to do enough damage.

Leyline of the Void: Against graveyard based strategies such as Ichorid and Loam variants. The discussion is between Leyline, Tormod’s Crypt and a newcomer in this battle, Relic of Progenitus.

Tormod’s Crypt: See Leyline of the Void

Relic of Progenitus: See Leyline of the Void

Circle of Protection - Red: Any deck that runs direct damage, be it Burn, Goyf Sligh or Red Treshhold is a bad matchup for Rock. This card is sometimes played to make those matches better.


Still waiting for it to be fixed.

char89
12-23-2008, 12:31 AM
Putting my G/B/w rock deck up for discussion her it goes:
Land
1 Plains
2 Swamps
2 Forest
2 wasteland
3 treetop village
2 savannah
3 bayou
1 volrath's stronghold
3 windswept heath
1 wooded foothills

Creatures
4 Ravenous Bloth
4 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Spirit Monger

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Putrefy

Sorcerys
3 Cabal Therepy
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize

Artifact
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantment
4 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Circle Protection Red
1 Gaea' Blessing
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Damnation
3 Krosan Grip
3 Smother

Any questions or comments please feel free to ask me on any of my choices/decisions

citanul
12-23-2008, 03:23 AM
Any questions or comments please feel free to ask me on any of my choices/decisions


- Do you get to 4 and 5 mana consistent on turn 3 to 5 with only 20 land?
- With all the lifegain, why no Thoughtseize over Duress?
- Why only 2 Goyf, 1 Monger?
- How do you feel about the manlands? Have they been good for you?
- Do you prefer Putrefy over Mortify and why?

Just curious why people include what, hence the many questions :).

Shabbaman
12-23-2008, 08:21 AM
Call of the Herd: Before the arrival in the Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance era most lists played this card. It forced the opponents to deal with 2 creatures often giving you card advantage.

I like CoH. I'm not advocating it over Tarmogoyf, but I'm still looking for a good reason to play CoH's. Your reasoning got me thinking: isn't CoH actually good agains CB because of it's converted casting cost?

Since you mentioned Unearth I'd want to share this: if you're running unearth, you might want to consider Fleshbag marauder or Bone shredder over Shriekmaw. And while on the topic of fleshbag marauders, if you're having a lot of mana it's a lot of fun with Grim harvest, especially if you're also running Life from the loam. But this probably isn't the deck for it.

citanul
12-23-2008, 08:31 AM
Your reasoning got me thinking: isn't CoH actually good agains CB because of it's converted casting cost.


Yes it is. It's inferiour to the raw power of Goyf though. I said: This era of Goyf and Counterbalance because those seem to be the two defining cards in Legacy along with LED for the combo part.

char89
12-23-2008, 09:37 AM
- Do you get to 4 and 5 mana consistent on turn 3 to 5 with only 20 land?
- With all the lifegain, why no Thoughtseize over Duress?
- Why only 2 Goyf, 1 Monger?
- How do you feel about the manlands? Have they been good for you?
- Do you prefer Putrefy over Mortify and why?

Just curious why people include what, hence the many questions :).

-Only having 20 land was something i took a chance on and yes believe it or not i do get to 4 or 5 mana very consistently with STE and the fetchlands and SDT for some reason i feel like the deck stacks itself the land comes up very easily
-I thought about running 4 thoughtseize which im probably going to switch to i just wanted to see what it was like running duress while i was play testing
-I only run 2 Goyf b/c thats all i have so when i get more its might change and only 1 monger b/c i have all these beaters 4 four already and i feel that monger is the finisher in the deck b/c if there not dead by the time i drop monger then there gonna be dead when i play it and plus the look on my opponents face when i drop monger is priceless lol.
-The manlands are GREAT i cant tell you how many times i've blown up deed then won just with the manlands, i mean they do get hit by STP or Lightning bolts but its just one less threat i have to worry about when i drop my fatties
-I've actually never play tested with mortify it just seems like the metagame has more artifacts in it then enhantments the only enchantments i see at my legacy is counterbalance and occasionly enchantress but i also have 4 main deck deeds which im fine with. i could see mortify being really good against enchantress while you side out putrefys for mortify and also side board out something else for krosan grip.

thanks for the questions im open for more questions and also any constructive criticism?

Rood
12-27-2008, 07:01 PM
Was wondering what you guys think of Moon-rock...I've been playing it recently with strong testing results destroying Threshold, Dreadstill, TA, and a bunch of other decks.

// Lands
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
3 [7E] Swamp (3)
4 [R] Bayou
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [TSP] Forest (1)

// Creatures
2 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
4 [PS] Terminate
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [ARE] Duress
4 [JU] Living Wish
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [TE] Diabolic Edict

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [FUT] Tombstalker
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [DIS] Indrik Stomphowler
SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith
SB: 1 [PS] Flametongue Kavu

I'm thinking of cutting the K-grips for something better in the board, they are meh. Terminate is a beating.

Berzerked
12-27-2008, 08:13 PM
Seems insanely sweet to say the least. I've been sitting here staring at it and nothing really jumps out as being wrong.

Hmm...off to test!

Edit: Is FTK better than Shriekmaw, especially with Volrath's Stronghold?

KillemallCFH
12-27-2008, 08:25 PM
I like the list a lot, Rodney. The only thing that jumps out at me is the lack of Shriekmaw in the board (as the above poster noted). The only thing FTK really kills that 'maw doesn't is Bob, and at 4 mana (plus 2 for Living Wish), that seems horribly inefficient. Big Game Hunter in the board also seems worthy of consideration, as it deals with Tombstalker and Dreadnought nicely. However, the casting cost might be a bit prohibitive, especially without a discard outlet, and I'm not sure where you'd find room for it.

Rood
12-27-2008, 09:01 PM
I like the list a lot, Rodney. The only thing that jumps out at me is the lack of Shriekmaw in the board (as the above poster noted). The only thing FTK really kills that 'maw doesn't is Bob, and at 4 mana (plus 2 for Living Wish), that seems horribly inefficient. Big Game Hunter in the board also seems worthy of consideration, as it deals with Tombstalker and Dreadnought nicely. However, the casting cost might be a bit prohibitive, especially without a discard outlet, and I'm not sure where you'd find room for it.

Probally going to cut a Grip for a Shriekmaw...you're absolutely right...he's a complete beating and definetally should be squeezed in someplace. BGH seems kinda meh I think I like FtK more just because he's a beatstick too. FtK is really good though he tends to be a great out against oposing Magus of the Moons when your manabase isn't prepared for it.

Jak
12-27-2008, 10:26 PM
Have you tried Burning Wish instead?

-4 Livig Wish
+4 Burning Wish

-7 Wishboard
+1 Haunting Echoes
+1 Reverent Silence
+1 Chainer's Edict
+1 Hull Breach
+1 Seeds of Innocence/Shattering Spree
+1 Regrowth
+1 Firespout

Just an idea.

Also, Tombstalker is such a house along side Deed. I don't know how you would fit him in with Bob, but try!

Berzerked
12-27-2008, 10:46 PM
Eh, the deck is already threat-light. Living wish lets you grab utility that is attached to a body, as well as those utility lands. Besides, with only 2 Moons MD, Living Wish essentially counts as copies 3-6 (and possibly more if a Moon is already in the grave and you grab Stronghold).



Also, Tombstalker is such a house along side Deed. I don't know how you would fit him in with Bob, but try!

Maybe with Living Wish?

Though it probably wouldn't be a problem anyway. I run Bob and Stalker in plenty of decks, and this one has SDT to boot.

Rood
12-27-2008, 11:16 PM
Yeah Jak I thought about running Burning Wish but I really like being able to run 6 copies of Moon Maindeck and 5 copies of Stronghold. Tombstalker maindeck doesn't seem very great to me, I think it's fine as a Wish target I mean I'd rather not take the risk of losing with Bob...I know it happens maybe once out of 15 games...but that isn't something I want to risk.

BTW I lol'd at this thought about Extirpate may be better then Relic in this deck. I hardly board in Relic and Extirpate seems rather good with how this deck plans to win...deny the oponent of their threats/hand. Only because I know how much everybody on this site loves Extirpate ;-).

Berzerked
12-27-2008, 11:29 PM
I thought about that, as well. Mainly because Extirpate doesn't screw with your own recursion/Goyfs.

Anyway, for the couple of games I've played already, the deck might be slightly land heavy. With such a low curve and SDTs, it doesn't seem that more than 21, maybe 22, would be needed.

What do you think about that?

Rood
12-28-2008, 12:23 AM
Yeah I'm still twinking the list but I think that the 3x Duress may be overkill

Seems good enough for discard with

4x Seize
4x Therapy

I also added in a few Harmonizes to help with the draw engine. So I'll still need my 23 lands.

J.V.
12-28-2008, 12:54 AM
Rood, I think that Harmonize might not be the best idea since it is a bad flip with Bob and with Top and Bob the Card Advantage may not be as needed as in other Rock decks. I would probably go -3 Duress +2 Eternal Witness +1 Cabal Therapy. As for your sideboard I agree, -1 Krosan Grip +1 Shriekmaw.

Pulp_Fiction
12-28-2008, 03:10 PM
I don't like the idea at all. I choose to not play Dragon Stompy because I dislike acting under the assumption that Moon effects are always good. It is an interesting take on the deck but all you really did is cut threats and add more removal :( It also looks infinitely worse against pure aggro like Zoo (which does run basic lands if the player has a brain), Affinity and Goblins. You also take burn as a auto-loss and with B/W/G Rock with Hierarchs it is a near 50/50 matchup since Doran and Goyf backed up by hand destruction put them on a fast clock.

I think my problem is that I don't see what matchups this build improves, I can only see what it makes a lot worse. Those matchups you listed as heavily favoring you are already very winnable matchups in particular with Choke (which almost everyone should be playing since every meta has blue). TA is an easy as hell matchup since running 23 lands + STE nullifies their disruption plan and they only play 8 threats and I have 4x StP, 3x Vindicate, 3x Deed, 2x Putrefy ..... AND they also have no answer to Spiritmonger and Doran which is quite amusing! Landstill can be annoying but since they have no clock at all it doesn't take long to rebuild with Top and our threats are just better than theirs and playing 8 basics doesn't hurt! The versions running Goyfs are the ones I prefer to play against since that means they have more dead cards against me. Then after SB when Extirpates and Choke come in it gets really fun! The Thresh matchup is also somewhat of a joke, in a tournament setting, out of the 4 times I have brought Rock to my local tourmanet I have played against: 2x TA, 3x Dreadstill, 2x 4C Thresh, 2x UGr Thresh, 1x U/G/w Thresh and 2x U/W/b/g Landstill; I have yet to lose to any of those decks. Choke owns any of these matchups but is not needed against TA since you just put in Extirpate and Extirpate a threat and they almost can't win. Dreadstill is also quite simple, the versions running Goyf are a little harder but the matchup is fairly easy since Krosan Grip > Dreadnought and the deck is just all answers and savage threats that Dreadstill can't keep up with.

throst54
12-29-2008, 08:22 PM
If you're running red I'd play Jund Charm (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/175.html), at the very least out of the board if not maindecked.
It gives you an answer against loam variants and ichorid game one, and makes your goblin/elves matchup a whole lot better.
The +2/+2 breaks up goyf standoffs, though admittedly it isnt quite as useful.

I just dont know if I'd want to bother running the Moon effects, as they dont play well with deed.
Burning wish for LftL, Haunting Echoes, Worm Harvest for sure.
Victimize (http://magiccards.info/us/en/166.html) and possibly Devestating Dreams or Deathcloud. Turn 2 Burning Wish into turn 3 Flamebreak could save you against a lot of quick aggro decks.

jazzykat
12-30-2008, 10:11 PM
I know Nihil is working on it and people have posted some decklists but as much as I usually hate the "dude look at my 2 card variant what do you think thread" this could sure use some typical deck lists. Perhaps 1 for an aggro list and a control list.

I understand there are nuances and all but still...not being a rock player I have trouble following it and some of the newest lists look like they get slaughtered by combo.

Illissius
12-30-2008, 10:24 PM
That's because The Rock as a deck is incredibly amorphous. It's practically an archetype unto itself. Anything more controllish than Eva Green and more aggressive than Train Wreck and optionally splashing any of the other colors could potentially be labeled The Rock. It's not even like Threshold where a base 20-30 spells are shared across all the variants -- you could probably come up with two separate lists which are both The Rock and which have zero spells in common* (though I haven't actually tried this).

* okay, maybe besides Tarmogoyf

And yeah, when combo is as powerful as it is in Legacy right now, you're not going to get too far against it when various one mana discard spells are the best disruption you have available. I think you'd have to either splash white for more/better hate or just suck it up.

e=mc^2
12-30-2008, 11:09 PM
There had been some talk about a deck with Death Cloud in it,so i drew up this list:

4x Korlash
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Finks


3x Death Cloud
2x Harmonize
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Smallpox
4x Diabolic Edict
3x Thoughtsieze
4x Cabal Therapy
2x SDT

4x Bayou
1x Volrath's SH
1x Urborg
8x Swamp
3x Forest
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Windswept Heath

I haven't put it together yet, but I would like to see what people think.

Pulp_Fiction
12-31-2008, 01:10 AM
@jazzykat: Here is my list for Rock and IMOP it is pretty close to optimal, in my meta anyway. These decks will all vary, like Fetchland Tendrils, no one has the same build since it is adapted to each person's meta. And each person has their pet cards, Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy, Wishes and there is not official verdict on Sakura. I highly support the card since it allows me to fetch additional basics, stalls the early game like a pro, shuffles the deck when garbage is revealed with Top, and fucks up Dredge. But, this list is the most solid I have seen and can handle literally anything:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Loxodon Hierarch
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
3x Doran, the Siege Tower
2x Eternal Witness
1x Spiritmonger

4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Putrefy

4x Windswept Heath
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
2x Savannah
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp

SB
4x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Choke
3x Circle of Protection: Red
2x Krosan Grip

The only changes that need to be made are the Putrefys which will be turning into the new Swords card Path to Exile. Other than that the list is basically complete. Combo, I have no chance so I simply choose to maximize my chances of beating literally anything else. Burn is about a 50/50 matchup, just depends on how fast Hierarchs come down so COP Red stops that garbage and Goyf Sligh. The Landstill matchup can be hard but draw out counters with threats then drop Choke and its GG! The only downfall to this deck is it will occassionally lose to super fast aggro draws. Then again, what deck doesn't? Goblins sometimes has their way with the deck but that can be expected. Putrefy is a great utility spell. I used to run 3x Spiritmongers but I sided them out freguently (cause I wasn't playing against Thresh-ish decks) so I just removed them from the list and put in Putrefy so as I really won't lose to that random Tombstalker and have a MD instant answer to Shackles. But since this deck needs help in the pure speed department, when Path to Exile comes out this deck has acces to essentially 8x StP!!! That is to many and the relevancy of StP on your own creatures for the life is relevant in certian matches so a 4/2 split seems right. If you are afraid of Extirpate you could run a 3/3 split but I would not advise it.

jazzykat
12-31-2008, 10:36 AM
@pulp: Thanks for the fair assessment of your deck's strengths and what looks like a strong list as I haven't tested it yet.

Waikiki
01-02-2009, 08:40 AM
Yeah I'm still twinking the list but I think that the 3x Duress may be overkill

Seems good enough for discard with

4x Seize
4x Therapy

I also added in a few Harmonizes to help with the draw engine. So I'll still need my 23 lands.

I wonder why therapy over duress since your creature count is so low.

chokin
01-02-2009, 03:37 PM
I wonder why therapy over duress since your creature count is so low.

Volrath's Stronghold helps recover lost creatures.

I like to have at least 2 lifegain slots in my builds whether it's the big dumb elephant, Finks or even a Baloth(old school). I think a little bit of lifegain goes a long way against decks like Burn or Sligh. 4 life is an anti Fireblast against Burn. Against Sligh, it can be 2 spells if they run Seal, Jet, Tarfire.

e=mc^2
01-07-2009, 10:54 AM
Has anyone tried COTV in the board? It might help against the combo mu at 0, and could be set against Thresh or Dreadstill at 1.

georgjorge
01-10-2009, 03:44 PM
Nihil made Top 8 in the last MTGSalvation Legacy tourney (lost in the quarterfinals) with a list that doesn't play green, but definitely has a Rock-ish flavor to it. I think it has some interesting (in the positive sense of the word) choices. The list and his explanation of it is here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3418136&postcount=26), maybe it can spark interest for a possible new Rock variant.

Pulp_Fiction
01-13-2009, 11:33 PM
Has anyone tried COTV in the board? It might help against the combo mu at 0, and could be set against Thresh or Dreadstill at 1.

Against any combo but Belcher CotV @ 1 is the best play. Honestly, the best form of combo hate is something that swings. Gaddock Teeg just destroys Belcher, they have to waste all of their resources to Burning Wish for an answer then play the answer. Chalice simply slows down the combo and they can win through it. Teeg flat out stops everything and has to be answered before they can do anything. If you don't have Teeg then Ethersworn Canonist is the next best hate card.

Pulp_Fiction
01-15-2009, 05:18 PM
Last night I took this list to a top 4 split in a field of about 20 players. The list has not changed except the SB:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Loxodon Hierarch
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
3x Doran, the Siege Tower
2x Eternal Witness
1x Spiritmonger

4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Putrefy

4x Windswept Heath
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
2x Savannah
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp

SB
4x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
2x Choke
2x Circle of Protection: Red
2x Krosan Grip
2x Gaddock Teeg

The SB changes were due to the fact that I wanted more combo hate. They were largely irrelevant and sadly, I think that not having 3 Choke cost me a matchup. The deck was fucking with me all night and there were mulligans a plenty. It was operating well below what it should, but, that being said, the fact that I ended up going 4-1 speaks strongly of how rock solid the list is (pun intended). With the additional testing of Putrefy I am very skeptical about adding in the new Path to Exhile in its place. Killing Jittes and other awful shit all night, it was fucking spectacular, however, there was one time I wished I could have PtE my own creature for a fucking swamp, but aside form that one game, Putrefy would have been better every time. I am at school and have class in a few mins, but here is what I played against; I will edit the post later to talk a little bit about the matchups.

Round 1 - Snow White/Mono-Whitegainlifebullshit.dec
2-0
Runed Halo, Jotun Grunt, Martyr of Sands, Story Circle, Hoofprints of the Stag, Oblivion Ring, and a bunch of other garbage ..... I play Deed, he almost can't win the matchup but it took a long fucking time because I had to Extirpate important cards first like Swords before I dealt with Martyr, so he was a a large amount of life and died quickly to Spiritmonger and Hierarchs. Both games played the same, except in game 2 he landed some Grunts and got Deeded a total of 5 times since he was kind enough to shuffle them back in for me.

Round 2 - 3C Thresh
0-2
Luck decided this matchup, needed more Chokes and non-land cards. Kept a 4 land hand game one, drew 9 more and lost. Then game 2 I mulled to 6 and kept a great hand. I had the game won and off the top he draws, in this order: Sower of Temptation, Counterbalance (Top in play stops StP), Goyf, Shackles, he drew a total of 1 land the entire game and had 4 in play. I had a Top in play (for 5 turns or so) and drew around 11. Can't beat luck.

Round 3 - 3C Tempo Thrash
2-1

Game 1 all I could draw was lands and my 2 Putrefys +2 Swords looking at 2 Nimble Mongoose. I think my deck runs ..... creatures.

Game 2 I mull to 6 and he tried to get cute with Stifles and shit. Deed sweeps his board and he dies shortly after.

Game 3 I mull to 5 and keep a no land hand that had: Vindicate, Swords, Deed, Tribe Elder, and Gaddock Teeg (seeing if it was any good in this matchup and it wasn't). I draw a basic forest and then a Volrath's Stronghold and am able to land a threat. He is color screwed and can't find green mana so we play draw go for a while. I cast STE and he gets Stifled (who would have guessed) but I assumed he had a Stifle so I waited to sack it till he cast a Mongoose so I could block and kill it and get a 2 for 1. Ironically the next turn I drew a basic plains .... bad luck again but am able to land threats. On turn ...... maybe 16, no exageration, it took me well over 12 turns to hit land number 4. Thats fucking BS. But, anyway, my deck has much better threats than his does and when I get access to black mana, I drop my hand and race him. I end the game at 2 life after getting 3 Hierarch's Stifled and swinging with Goyf and Hierarch.

Round 4 - 4C Thresh w/ Confidant
2-0
Very easy matchup, my threats are a lot better than his. Before the match he tells me "lets get this over fast"! Lol, I thought he was joking, but no, it really was that bad. All I had to do was keep Bob off the table and it would be simple after that.

Round 5 - GWb fast Mid-range Aggro
2-1
Another very easy matchup. The highest casting cost in his deck is 2.
Game 1 I mull into Deed and 4 for 1 him and win shortly after with Goyf.

Game 2 I get really unlucky. I keep a really good hand and need to draw a green source (it had Vindicates and StP and stuff). He gets a savage draw and beats me down to very low life. I eventually draw my green source and cast Deed without enough mana to activate it in the same turn. He rips Krosan grip off the top and I lose the next turn. It happens.

Game 3 Deed 6 for 1s him and I E. Plague his Knights (he plays White Knight and Silver) and Cat, Spectral Lynx owns every creature in my deck. No fucking joke, Lynx OWNS this deck, all I can do is StP. Doran puts him on a fast clock and he can't recover.

Rood
01-15-2009, 05:25 PM
You ever want more hand disruption (Cabal Therapy) to complement your Seizes? I run a full set of each and I would not change them for anything they're too valuable at what they do. I mean Rock already has a dreadful storm combo matchup but with 4x Seize/4x Therapy and Witnesses you at least have a fighting chance. Especially with Teeg coming in from the board. Also you have no draw engine, how has that been treating you? I think maybe you could manage a couple of Harmonizes in there, the card is so good.

Captain Hammer
01-15-2009, 08:48 PM
I think we reached the threshold of strong multicolored cards that Glittering Wish really should be played in the deck.

Just off the top of my head....

You have...

Gadook Teeg (against storm combo)
Gerrard's Verdict
Doran
Putrefy (I'm assuming all 4 Vindicates will be maindecked).
Mystic Enforcer
Deed (if you only play 3 MD)
Spiritmonger
Vexing Shusher (answers CB+Top)

and several others.

Pulp_Fiction
01-16-2009, 02:17 AM
Alright, my post was updated with a little matchup analysis.

@Roodmistah: I hate hand destruction in this deck. I play Thoughtseize cause its pretty much a cure all card, and has the potential to deal with literally any threat before it comes into play. Basically its just too good. If Thoughtseize didn't exist and all I could play was Duress and Cabal Therapy, I would run more threats and 0 hand destruction spells. Here is why, late game, when you are trying to draw something .... good, you draw hand destruction. This deck is about out resourcing your opponent and dropping bombs. Every card in this deck is a threat. I side out hand destruction against super fast aggro that doesn't have burn (Zoo) and isn't Goblins or Slivers. Basically I side it out in matchups where E Plague is spectacular like Affinity, Elves, and random mid-range aggro. I would side out hand destruction against Goblins, but Vindicate is so terrible against them I side 3 of those out and 1 Thoughtseize (Port and Wasteland totally nullify Vindicate, this matchup is all about tempo). Cabal Therapy .... all my creatures aside from Eternal Witness are fucking fantastic in play, I could care less if they cast their Goyf. Point being, I love Thoughtseize, and it does help a little in the combo matchup, but I think additional hand destruction is pointless if you are playing a more aggro control oriented version like mine. Now, if you are playing a pure aggro build, I can understand that.

I would never include something like Sylvan Library or Harmonize in the deck. Top is MORE than enough. I have 11 shuffle effects for it. And on turn 3/4 I would much rather activate Top during upkeep and drop a threat than draw 3 cards. Plus, playing against something like Eva Green, it is fucking awesome to be able to keep StP/Vindicate/ Putrefy on top to deal with Tombstalker, since that is the only card in their deck that poses a threat. Additional card draw is rather worthless IMOP. If it works for you run it, I think Top is spectacular in the deck and is the only card filter/draw (it does draw a card) engine that the deck needs. And if it gets Pithing Needled ... that isn't like it matters. Much better than a Pithing Needle on Deed. You don't need Top to win, but it doesn't hurt and is rarely a dead card and allows you to keep removal safe from your opponent's discard spells.

sauce
01-18-2009, 02:52 PM
i am considering running krosan grip main deck since alot of the time pithing needle is the bane of this deck, and some people decided to run it main deck in our meta.

it also seems to answers survival of the fittest/dreadnought/counterbalance/seismic assault/moat/humility, etc...

i am not sure what to take out for it though...
i am currently using peter's decklist:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21692

edit:
i am also not running exactly that list, i got 4 finks, 2 loxodon hierarchs.
im thinking maybe 1 finks, 1 vindicate for 2 krosan grips main.
i really dont wanna mess w/ the curve too much.

Moczoc
01-18-2009, 03:38 PM
@Pulp_Fiction: Why don't you play Tombstalker or Dark Confidant?

char89
01-18-2009, 11:28 PM
@Moczoc
the thing about Bob is the rocks curve is not all that low even with hierarchs and baloth your gonna be taking atleast 3 points of life or 4 and plus thoughtseize he also wont stay on the board that long with deed anyways. tombstalker is good but spiritmonger is better. i mean sure tombstalker has evasion and delve but when theres other decks running tombstalker spirit monger beats him. spiritmonger is bigger has color evasion when you need it and regenerates AND he pumps with damage AND counterbalance has a tough time with him he's just overall good. and whats the point of running eternal witness when your removing cards in your graveyard with tombstalker. sometimes its just personal opinion but a singleton spiritmonger can be a late gamebreaker. but thats my opinion lets see what pulpfiction has to say about monger and bob.

grahf
01-19-2009, 03:59 AM
I hope y'all don't mind if I ask... What's the difference between The Rock and Pro Tour Junk/Jank? I was reading a Pat Chapin article, and he said something like "they're different decks, get it right" but they look pretty much the same to me.

rancOr_
01-19-2009, 07:05 AM
I dont see the reason for not playing Dark Condidant. If he stays,you will win the game for sure. It will most likely get an instant swords/x removal spel on it. Also 2 Tombstalker is way better then spirit monger/loxodon hierarch(why even play this card) can do. With SDT,u can easily handle confi and u only
have 2tombstalkers as cards higer then3,which isnt a big deal. Tombstalker can come down very fast and has evasion. So Dark Confidant>> Loxodon Hierarch and Tombstalker >> Spiritmonger. If you do want to have another big creature Jotun Grunt is also very good.

@sauce. I wouldn't play Krosan Grip mainboard. You have thoughtseize/vindicate to answer annoying stuff like that. And if u feel the need for them,u just side like 3of em in.The rock is so versatile because it has a 'good' matchup versus all random decks. Dont play maindeck hate.

Pulp_Fiction
01-19-2009, 04:55 PM
@Moczoc: I really hate Dark Confidant in a deck that isn't Suicide black oriented. He kills you way to fast and is pointless in way to many matchups. Basically anything with red in it he is horrible against and against fast aggro, all he does is assist in killing you. Confidant can't block and live, occassionally kills you, and can't attack if the opponent controls creatures. Late game when drawn Confidant usually is just terrible. Since this deck already has solid matchups against blue based control anyway I really don't see a need for him. Every creature in the deck serves a solid purpose and are immediate threats (except for STE but he serves his role perfectly). Top with 11 shuffle effects is more than enough deck manipulation/card advantage.

Tombstalker would be played as maybe a 2x of and it really isn't worth it. It is not wrong to run Tombstalker by any means but I just prefer Spiritmonger since it is so much harder to kill. Even as a one of, Thresh can't deal with it. Tombstalker is fairly easy to deal with, a 6/6 that regenerates and gets bigger ... not the same. Also, the lack of synergy between Eternal Witness and Tombstalker is not good. Much like char89 said, Spiritmonger is a late game breaker, Swords to Plowshares is basically the only commonly played card that answers it. Sure there are others like Oblivion Ring and Runed Halo and Wing Shards, but those are not commonplace. When you think about it, most decks can handle a single Tombstalker, very few are equipped to deal with Spiritmonger whether it be early, mid, or late game. Sure you can chump block him, but for how long?

@grahf: PT Junk is an aggro deck. Its also referred to as Rockin Funkbrew but, since I actually played PT Junk when it was extended legal I simply refer to it as Junk. Since its still the same deck but with Goyf and Swords in it. They are VERY different decks that take somewhat similar paths to victory. The Rock is a board control deck that drops bomb creatures as the game progresses, usually the Rock builds are more aggro control oriented and play like control decks. Junk is an aggro deck with a toolbox. The deck is built to be able to handle nearly any threat and put the opponent on a short clock. It does not play like a control deck at all, it can assume that role, but it is a mid-range aggro deck.

@rancor: You could not be further from the truth. Anyone who has ever actually cast Loxodon Hierarch in a tournament setting with a Rock build has understood how good it is. The only reason Hierarch isn't commonly played ...... Tarmogoyf. But in a deck that does not give a shit about Tarmogoyf and has tons of answers to it you can safely play Hierarchs. They own the Goblin, Goyf Sligh, and Burn matchups as well as the Thrash matchup. Loxodon Hierarch is an amazingly underutilized creature who really gets to prove how good he is in a deck like Rock. I understand most people's logic is this: Tombstalker is commonly played .... I know its good so I should play it, its better than ____ creatures that would be played in its spot. Please build the deck up and play it, or post a list with card justifications before you make pointless posts like that.

@sauce: Why would you play Krosan Grip when you can run more Deeds, Vindicates, Mortify, or Putrefy?

sauce
01-19-2009, 06:13 PM
@sauce: Why would you play Krosan Grip when you can run more Deeds, Vindicates, Mortify, or Putrefy?

uncounterable, less color intensive are my knee jerk answers to that.

the only issues this deck runs into is a rare 3 drop counterbalance which even grip wont help with and pithing needle on deed.

HAVE HEART
01-21-2009, 01:00 PM
uncounterable, less color intensive are my knee jerk answers to that.

It also destroys things that can be activated in response.

Captain Hammer
01-21-2009, 09:44 PM
Spiritmonger is a late game breaker, Swords to Plowshares is basically the only commonly played card that answers it. Sure there are others like Oblivion Ring and Runed Halo and Wing Shards, but those are not commonplace. When you think about it, most decks can handle a single Tombstalker, very few are equipped to deal with Spiritmonger whether it be early, mid, or late game.

Umm, what commonly played removal is there that doesn't kill Spiritmonger but kills Tombstalker.

Ignoring the mirror matchup, here are the most commonly played removal spells in this format...

Swords to Plowshares
Snuff Out
Oblivion Ring
Lightning Bolt
Wrath of God
Runed Halo
Moat
Diabolic Edict
Smother
Humility

Out of all these cards, there isn't a SINGLE removal spell that kills Tombstalker but doesn't kill Spiritmonger, NOT ONE!!!

Meanwhile, Tombstalker ignores Moat while Spiritmonger does not.

So exactly why is Spiritmonger more resilient than Tombstalker. In this format, it really isn't.

Meanwhile the fact that Tombstalker is essentially 2cc AND has evasion/gets around blockers to kill in just four turns makes it an all around superior threat imho.

sauce
01-21-2009, 09:57 PM
Umm, what commonly played removal is there that doesn't kill Spiritmonger but kills Tombstalker.

Ignoring the mirror matchup, here are the most commonly played removal spells in this format...

Swords to Plowshares
Snuff Out
Oblivion Ring
Lightning Bolt
Wrath of God
Runed Halo
Moat
Diabolic Edict
Smother
Humility

Out of all these cards, there isn't a SINGLE removal spell that kills Tombstalker but doesn't kill Spiritmonger, NOT ONE!!!

Meanwhile, Tombstalker ignores Moat while Spiritmonger does not.

So exactly why is Spiritmonger more resilient than Tombstalker. In this format, it really isn't.

Meanwhile the fact that Tombstalker is essentially 2cc AND has evasion/gets around blockers to kill in just four turns makes it an all around superior threat imho.

the problem w/ tombstalker in the rock is that it nukes your yard... that effectively shrinks goyf and also messes up the synergy w/ eternal witness.
obv tombstalker is a potent threat, but its not worth the whole goyf/eternal witness getting messed with.

this deck is not the beatdown, it needs to play the thorough control role and then put the opponent in top deck mode while beating often with 1-2 creatures on the ground thanks to vindicate/swords/deed.

Captain Hammer
01-21-2009, 10:24 PM
Goyf and Tombstalker play fine together. Ask anyone that plays Team America or Eva Green or any variant there of. Goyf feeds off your opponents yard, not just yours.

As for Eternal Witness, just don't delve the card that you would want to Witness back, delve the other stuff instead.

I'm not saying Tombstalker should be a 4 of. But I see no reason not to play 2-3 copies of it in the deck.

Playing Tombstalker + Deed/Eternal Witness/Vindicate/Kitchen Finks on turn five is a lot more broken than just playing Spiritmonger by itself turn five. And both plays will cost you the same amount of mana. But you essentially got yourself an extra turn by playing Tombstalker instead.

Rood
01-21-2009, 10:31 PM
I personally opt to play Dark Confidant over Tombstalker and just run Living wish to grab him when I need him. That way you can still have a pretty intense draw engine and still be enabled to play Tombstalker.

char89
01-21-2009, 11:52 PM
i just think with meta game running a lot of tombstalkers why not run spritmonger then you don't have to worry about trading blows with stalker...stalker just dies and monger gets bigger but no matter if you play monger or tombstalker the faster you get it out you put your opponent on the clock and that's what i like to see when i play this deck

citanul
01-22-2009, 03:15 AM
the problem w/ tombstalker in the rock is that it nukes your yard... that effectively shrinks goyf and also messes up the synergy w/ eternal witness.


Not every Rock plays witness, you choice what to delve etc.
Tombstalker is a great card due to the evasion it has. But if you prefer Spiritmonger it's your own choice and you should play that one then.



I personally opt to play Dark Confidant over Tombstalker and just run Living wish to grab him when I need him. That way you can still have a pretty intense draw engine and still be enabled to play Tombstalker.


I got so tired of hearing this! Nothing against you Roodmistah ;). But running 2 to 3 Tombstalker along with 4 Confidant is NOT going to kill you. Every Rock plays 2 to 4 SDT's, a curve of 2 and 3 mostly with some higher CC and most of them play some lifegain as well. I myself play 3 Shriekmaw, 2 Tombstalker, 4 Confidant, 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Top, rest is 2 or 3 drops and have only died once to a reveal of a Tarmogoyf the last 11 Tournaments and that was against Goyf Sligh.

Eatatjoes
01-22-2009, 04:39 AM
What about gigapede or grave shell scarab in place of spiritmonger? Rock is all about card advantage, and running the opponent out of answers, and these guys keep coming back, while growing your yard, and taking away nothing from goyf, i like them as finishers alot, they break the late game open if it comes to a stall

Media314r8
01-22-2009, 04:56 AM
Has anyone else tested and/or had success with either fleshbag marauder or profane command?

I used to run Shriekmaw and stronghold/witness as my removal package, but found the increasing numbers of dreadnaughts and tombstalkers minimizing the usefulness of the goyf-muching lizard-snake. (the anti-synergy with bob occasionally hurt as well) I personally run explorer/therapy, and find fleshbag to be an excellent stronghold-synergistic edict, while providing an additional sac outlet for explorer, and occasionally trading with factories/mongeese. Both the snake and fleshbag live through deed, and while the lack of evasion is often problematic, the inevitability of recurring an edict with stronghold has won me many games, while also keeping me from running dead slots MB for the purpose of removing Mystic enforcers/tombstalkers/huge, scary things. I've never been a big fan of chainer's edict in rock, but I think this new edict on legs solves many of the problems the deck has with hard to kill dudes without being a dead card, and recurring via stronghold.

I use profane as my late-game finisher and improvised soft-lock. At even X=2, it can be cast after bouncing goyfs off each other and finsih theirs off while grabbing a confidant, ect from the bin. It helps in recovering from deed, and allways can be used as a drainlife/team fear. I also like the interaction with drain life/witness, as she grabs the profane and threatens to chump block to keep the cycle going. Many a gave have I won through two-for ones or slow life-draining eterna-blockers, and as a finisher, it only flips for two life off bob.

citanul
01-22-2009, 05:16 AM
What about gigapede or grave shell scarab in place of spiritmonger? Rock is all about card advantage, and running the opponent out of answers, and these guys keep coming back, while growing your yard, and taking away nothing from goyf, i like them as finishers alot, they break the late game open if it comes to a stall


The superiour of those two is Gigapede as it beats up a goyf. On the other hand, it can be chumped and then it will die, even to a dumb 1/1. If I had to choose from Monger, Scarab or Gigapede I'd go for the Monger.



Has anyone else tested and/or had success with either fleshbag marauder or profane command?


Last sunday there was a tournament in the Netherlands, Around 130 players I think. Rock got 4th place and that list ran 2 Profane Command. I'll post the list or PM it if you want it.

As for Fleshbag Marauder, I run Shriekmaw and am still satisfied about them. One mana cheaper to use is better for me. But I run no creatures I want to sacrifice like Explorer or any other form of mana accel.

Deviruchi
01-22-2009, 05:36 AM
Last sunday there was a tournament in the Netherlands, Around 130 players I think. Rock got 4th place and that list ran 2 Profane Command. I'll post the list or PM it if you want it.

All top8 can be found here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311222&postcount=43

Rock decklist:



4. Mattias Kres
// Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
3 Treetop Village
3 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
1 Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Dark Confidant

// Spells
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Chrome Mox
2 Profane Command

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Jotun Grunt

sauce
01-22-2009, 08:50 AM
Has anyone else tested and/or had success with either fleshbag marauder or profane command?

I used to run Shriekmaw and stronghold/witness as my removal package, but found the increasing numbers of dreadnaughts and tombstalkers minimizing the usefulness of the goyf-muching lizard-snake. (the anti-synergy with bob occasionally hurt as well) I personally run explorer/therapy, and find fleshbag to be an excellent stronghold-synergistic edict, while providing an additional sac outlet for explorer, and occasionally trading with factories/mongeese. Both the snake and fleshbag live through deed, and while the lack of evasion is often problematic, the inevitability of recurring an edict with stronghold has won me many games, while also keeping me from running dead slots MB for the purpose of removing Mystic enforcers/tombstalkers/huge, scary things. I've never been a big fan of chainer's edict in rock, but I think this new edict on legs solves many of the problems the deck has with hard to kill dudes without being a dead card, and recurring via stronghold.

I use profane as my late-game finisher and improvised soft-lock. At even X=2, it can be cast after bouncing goyfs off each other and finsih theirs off while grabbing a confidant, ect from the bin. It helps in recovering from deed, and allways can be used as a drainlife/team fear. I also like the interaction with drain life/witness, as she grabs the profane and threatens to chump block to keep the cycle going. Many a gave have I won through two-for ones or slow life-draining eterna-blockers, and as a finisher, it only flips for two life off bob.

profane command is amazing especially as a late game topdeck.
if they have no counter in hand, its GG

HAVE HEART
01-22-2009, 01:48 PM
I got so tired of hearing this! Nothing against you Roodmistah ;). But running 2 to 3 Tombstalker along with 4 Confidant is NOT going to kill you. Every Rock plays 2 to 4 SDT's, a curve of 2 and 3 mostly with some higher CC and most of them play some lifegain as well.

It is relevant. I have seen Confidant kill people in almost every format. Flipping Tombstalker off of Confidant is something that has to be taken into consideration. Eight to the dome is a backbreaker, and decks that do run Tombstalker and Confidant usually want to win within the first five turns, but most Rock lists are different. If running them together in a slower-paced deck like Rock works for you, then go for it, but saying the interaction is irrelevant is an oversight.

nastynate
01-22-2009, 02:32 PM
It is relevant. I have seen Confidant kill people in almost every format. Flipping Tombstalker off of Confidant is something that has to be taken into consideration. Eight to the dome is a backbreaker, and decks that do run Tombstalker and Confidant usually want to win within the first five turns, but most Rock lists are different. If running them together in a slower-paced deck like Rock works for you, then go for it, but saying the interaction is irrelevant is an oversight.

I totally agree. The rock doesn't win fast enough to make the life-loss of confidant a non-issue (like zoo or combo decks), and doing large amounts of damage to yourself between fetch-lands and confidant can and will cost you games. It should be one (confidant) or the other (tombstalker) in this deck; together they are too risky.

rancOr_
01-22-2009, 02:53 PM
The rock can easily support 2-(3) Tombstalkers together with Dark Confidant. U should play SDT obviously.. but its really not an issue. I've played those 2for years and never ever died due it. It's just a very good and undercosted effective beater with evasion. It also has synergy with Pernicious Deed and pple saying he conflicts with Tarmogoyfs are wrong,it shouldnt bother u.
Well, u should just try it out and then u'll see how superior TS is.

Rood
01-22-2009, 04:48 PM
Even if I lost one out of every 10 games to a revealed Tombstalker, that's one less game I feel as though I could have won had I not revealed it. Basically if the chance is there I can take 8 to the dome with my own bob, I'll choose not to run Tombstalker.

citanul
01-23-2009, 03:21 AM
1 out of 10 games is a higher probability than possible. Even when you drop Confidant turn2, have 51 cards left and are running 4 Tombstalkers the chance is less than 1/10. And even when that occurs it is not certain you'll die offthat damage.

But it's your opinion, if you don't want to play it then don't :). I'm just trying to point out that the effect of a few high CC with Confidant is overestimated.

elof
01-23-2009, 05:48 AM
1 out of 10 games is a higher probability than possible. Even when you drop Confidant turn2, have 51 cards left and are running 4 Tombstalkers the chance is less than 1/10. And even when that occurs it is not certain you'll die offthat damage.


Actually, we could do some calculation on it. The main diffrence is that when you draw more then one card with bob. Consider draw 3 blanks on turn 2 and forward with bob:

4/51 = 0.078 for the first draw, then a normal draw (not SDT/Tomb), second draw:
4/49 = 0.082 same for third:
4/47 = 0.085

If you add them together you get: about 0.25 chance. So once every 4 game you would have drawn a tombstalker in these cards. Dosen't sound to good, but I know that there are factors that minimize this, SDT being one. But still.

citanul
01-23-2009, 06:03 AM
Keep in mind that those probabilities is assuming you run 4 Tombstalker and that you haven't drawn any of them in the previous draws. That's a big if.
Most people will run 2 to 3, I myself run 2 and that's probably the best number when running Confidant.

Don't know exactly how to do those calculations anymore :(. something like:
c((7/60)/(2/60)) for 7 cards drawn where there's 2 of that card.

You also need to combine that with having to have Confidant, no SDT etc. Probably very hard to calculate but it occurs not that often, I think 1/100 is more precise and even then it won't be sure if it will kill you.

elof
01-23-2009, 06:32 AM
I just did a worst case senario check, off course you seldom play 4 Tomb and 4 Bob, without no other relevant cards, like SDT. However, I did not take into account for drawn Tombstalkers, number of fetches/other card drawn etc.

If you run 2 Stalkers the chance are 0.125, 3 stalkers 0.19, 1 stalker 0.06. But as you said, there are plenty of other factors to add to consider.

sauce
01-23-2009, 10:18 AM
There is a new card in Conflux:

Knight of the Reliquary - 1GW
Creature - Human Knight (Rare)
Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1 for each land card in your graveyard.
{T}, Sacrifice a Forest or Plains: Search your library for a land card, put it into play, then shuffle your library.
2/2

This seems pretty good to fetch up Volrath's Stronghold as well as beat face with.
Although it has a lot more synergy in Aggroloam.dec

What do you guys think

e=mc^2
01-23-2009, 03:57 PM
It is like a Terravore on steroids, but without trample. One reason Terravore is attractive as a finisher is because it can't be chump blocked.

The the other ability has a way to fill up the yard with lands, but decks that would run this (read: Loam decks) already have dredge, cycling lands, retrace and Countryside Crusher to get lands into the graveyard.

In Rock I could see this as a utility creature to fetch specific lands as was mentioned. However, if you wanted to use it to its full potential, then you would end up playing Life From the Loam.

sauce
01-26-2009, 10:02 AM
what type of SB would you take to GP chicago with this deck?

here is mine right now...

1 ethersworn canonist (ccccombo breaker)
1 gaea's cradle (painter/stone)
2 pithing needle (random stuff)
3 krosan grip (pithing needle on deed vs control)
4 extirpate (ichorid, cephalid breakfast, survival, etc.)
4 leyline of the void (ichorid, cephalid breakfast, survival, etc.)

Skeggi
01-26-2009, 10:08 AM
1 gaea's cradle (painter/stone)
How about Gaea's Blessing (http://magiccards.info/arena/en/42.html)?

I'm not a fan of Extirpate by the way (also, you're already running 4 Leyline of the Void). It's probably better to have Pithing Needle #3 and #4 and Krosan Grip #4. That leaves you with 1 random card. Perhaps another Canonist then (or another Blessing incase you draw the one).

citanul
01-26-2009, 10:33 AM
I think it also depends on your build. If you are low on maindeck discard like me, only running 4 Thoughtseize, I'd dedicate at least 4 slots against combo. Blue is commonly played and the same will be true for the GP, therefore Choke should be in the Sb, at least 3 or 4 to be useful.

If you do not run any form of graveyard hate maindeck, mostly in the form of Jotun Grunt, you should dedicate 4 slots to this, either Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus. I dislike Extirpate but if you want it, your choice.

That leaves 3 to 4 spots open which is commonly used for Krosan Grip.

If I go I'd run the following sideboard:
4 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Thorn of Amethyst

I prefer Thorn over other combo hate is it can be good and better against other random junk where my heavy removal maindeck will be useless. Again, this is personal preference and also dependant on your maindeck. If you run 8 or more hand discard I wouldn't dedicate any sideboard slots to it, opening it op for other matchups. Know what your deck is weak against and try to find the best sideboard card against it. If you post your list I might be able to give you a more detailed list.

sauce
01-26-2009, 11:24 AM
How about Gaea's Blessing (http://magiccards.info/arena/en/42.html)?

I'm not a fan of Extirpate by the way (also, you're already running 4 Leyline of the Void). It's probably better to have Pithing Needle #3 and #4 and Krosan Grip #4. That leaves you with 1 random card. Perhaps another Canonist then (or another Blessing incase you draw the one).

yeah oops, blessing not cradle :tongue:

i have had choke in there before, but my matchup against blue is already favorable. a resolved choke does win the game right there usually.

thanks. will post list later tonight.

list:
1 stillmoon cavalier (just added but not yet tested)
2 loxodon hierarch
3 kitchen finks
4 tarmogoyf
4 eternal witness

4 vindicate
4 pernicious deed
4 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares
2 duress
2 sensei's divining top
1 hymn to tourach
1 profane command (just added but not yet tested)
1 harmonize

3 treetop village
the rest are mana lands and fetches

DrHealex
01-27-2009, 01:54 AM
yeah oops, blessing not cradle :tongue:

i have had choke in there before, but my matchup against blue is already favorable. a resolved choke does win the game right there usually.

thanks. will post list later tonight.

list:
1 stillmoon cavalier (just added but not yet tested)
2 loxodon hierarch
3 kitchen finks
4 tarmogoyf
4 eternal witness

4 vindicate
4 pernicious deed
4 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares
2 duress
2 sensei's divining top
1 hymn to tourach
1 profane command (just added but not yet tested)
1 harmonize

3 treetop village
the rest are mana lands and fetches

Your random one ofs hurt me noggin'.
Also, no tombstalkers? They are pretty synergetic with your pernicious deeds... I tend to like to run 2-3 of them in rock.
From my experience, 3 witness is the perfect number in almost any deck you want to play that card in, and this deck is no exception.
I am uncertain about the treetops, i mean they aren't terrible....
Also.. a singleton Volrath's Stronghold goes well with ALL creatures ROCK generally wants to play.

sauce
01-27-2009, 10:10 AM
Your random one ofs hurt me noggin'.
Also, no tombstalkers? They are pretty synergetic with your pernicious deeds... I tend to like to run 2-3 of them in rock.
From my experience, 3 witness is the perfect number in almost any deck you want to play that card in, and this deck is no exception.
I am uncertain about the treetops, i mean they aren't terrible....
Also.. a singleton Volrath's Stronghold goes well with ALL creatures ROCK generally wants to play.

the "one ofs" are amazing if you draw them and do not hurt the deck if you don't. i just got tired of being locked out by a 3 drop w/ countertop so I added a profane command.

i run volrath's stronghold as well, sorry did not mention it.

also, do you guys just scoop if you are locked out with 3 drop on countertop?

i may run genesis instead of 1 eternal witness and maybe drop in 2 life from the loam for 1 duress and 1 hymn.. but then should I run the black/green citp/cycle lands as well to get the full synergy? hmm..

citanul
01-27-2009, 12:27 PM
I don't run Cycle land but I do run Life from the Loam. Works great with Fetchland and top for reshuffle effects, manlands, wasteland and avoids being manascrewed.

I do scoop mostly at CB with 2 and 3 floating. The only things I can play is Tombstalker and Shriekmaw but as the game progresses I'll lose.

sauce
01-27-2009, 12:48 PM
I don't run Cycle land but I do run Life from the Loam. Works great with Fetchland and top for reshuffle effects, manlands, wasteland and avoids being manascrewed.

I do scoop mostly at CB with 2 and 3 floating. The only things I can play is Tombstalker and Shriekmaw but as the game progresses I'll lose.

do you run genesis? if not, how do you recover from loaming away 2 goyfs and other threats? only volrath's stronghold?

citanul
01-27-2009, 02:07 PM
I only run 1 Volrath's Stronghold and no Genesis, neither do I play Witness or any other form of graveyard recursion. This is to avoid a dependancy on the graveyard, often resulting people siding in graveyard hate against my mediocre loams giving them death cards.

I do play Jotun Grunt though to avoid getting decked in a way and to reuse threats.

Pulp_Fiction
01-27-2009, 02:44 PM
??????????????????????????????????????????

Genesis ?? Loam ???

1x Profane Command, 1x Harmonize, 1x Hymn to Tourach, 3x Treetop Village, 4x Eternal Witness?

Seriously, this is insane. The first thoughts that came to my mind were pick a deck. When you start mixing archetypes it begins to dumb down other features of other archetypes your deck has and it begins to function well below the level that it should. Pick what you want to go for, Loam, Rock, Tombstone, pure aggro, disruptive aggro control, etc. Your build looks like nothing, like you took a few ideas from this thread and jammed a few pet cards in there. This is not to flame, but that build is awful, look back in this thread or check www.deckcheck.net for a good Rock list. The builds vary but .... just no. I am not going to comment on any of those card choices except for Treetop Village .... it comes into play tapped and Rock-ish decks can have problems with super fast aggro like Goblins. Its bad and it isn't like the Rock archetype is lacking good threats ... especially lacking enough power to run Treetop Village.

As far as SBs go, this is optimized for a random meta:

3x Choke
3x COP: Red
3x Extirpate
3x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip

sauce
01-27-2009, 03:30 PM
??????????????????????????????????????????

Genesis ?? Loam ???

1x Profane Command, 1x Harmonize, 1x Hymn to Tourach, 3x Treetop Village, 4x Eternal Witness?

Seriously, this is insane. The first thoughts that came to my mind were pick a deck. When you start mixing archetypes it begins to dumb down other features of other archetypes your deck has and it begins to function well below the level that it should. Pick what you want to go for, Loam, Rock, Tombstone, pure aggro, disruptive aggro control, etc. Your build looks like nothing, like you took a few ideas from this thread and jammed a few pet cards in there. This is not to flame, but that build is awful, look back in this thread or check www.deckcheck.net for a good Rock list. The builds vary but .... just no. I am not going to comment on any of those card choices except for Treetop Village .... it comes into play tapped and Rock-ish decks can have problems with super fast aggro like Goblins. Its bad and it isn't like the Rock archetype is lacking good threats ... especially lacking enough power to run Treetop Village.

As far as SBs go, this is optimized for a random meta:

3x Choke
3x COP: Red
3x Extirpate
3x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip

i based my build on peter's deck, http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21692
that deck won danish legacy champs.

what is your list, and what has it won? i know you said you're not trying to flame, but thats what it comes off as unfortunately.

i was just bringing up ideas of loam/genesis, i didn't say i am running it or was going to run it.

cop: red seems like a meta choice imho, we don't have aggro loam or goblins really, i dont think goblins are going to survive a deed/plague anyway.

we have burn show up sometimes, finks/loxodon hierarch do the task pretty well most of the time, and when they don't you can always play Aegis of honor.

is your matchup against ichorid/breakfast so good that you only run 3 extirpates and no leylines? im confused.

thanks for "not" flaming me.

citanul
01-27-2009, 04:01 PM
I'm very satisfied with Loam myself, I run 3 along with 6 fetchland, 3 wasteland, 3 Mishra's Factory. Combining these with Sensei's Divining Top allows you to create an insane deckstacking engine. Inclusion of cycle land is possible but I felt that it clumped up the deck a lot and forced you to go more Loam based.

Genesis is a great card but rather mana intensive. Without a sacrifice outlet of your own bar Deed but who ever blows that for 5, it is rather useless and often overkill in my eyes.

Stillmoon Cavalier looks like a good card but just like you, I haven't tested it yet. I'm afraid it's mana intensive as well and it would be better to just play Tombstalker or if you desire to have Protection, Mystic Enforcer.

Profane Command is probably a good choice as your deck is focused on late game and this card is just a bomb then, creating card advantage and versatile, also good synergy with a Witness in the yard.

As for a sideboard for your deck. You only run 7 discard so you'll need at least 3 slots, preferred 4 against combo. Seeing as you might need a fast clock in those MU's before they recover you can either run Gaddock Teeg or Ethersworn cannonist. Thorn of Amethyst is also a possibility but that's my opinion.

You run no graveyard hate maindeck. The only matchup you'll side it in against is Ichorid since you stated in a previous post that there is no agro-loam. I'd go for Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt then but you'll need at least 4.

Krosan Grip is an auto include when you play Rock. 3 to 4 is adviced, depending on your fear of artifacts.

This puts you at a list of:

3-4 Combo hosers
4 graveyard hate
3-4 Krosan Grip

So you still have 5 to 3 spots left. This depends on your fear of decks. If you think blue such as MUC/Standstill are bad match ups then you should add Choke. If you are uncertain about combo you can add extra discard like Cabal Therapy, Duress or Hymn to Tourach. Scared of tribal decks like Elves and Goblins add Engineered Plagues. Or just run extra graveyard hate if you want to.

Hope this helped a bit.

Pulp_Fiction
01-27-2009, 04:56 PM
@ sauce: I have been waiting for a comment like "what is your list and what has it won." Thats funny. Although I don't keep track of all the successes that my build of Rock has amassed, I have taken it to my local card shop no fewer than 5 times (each time had no fewer than 20 people), and each time it has made the top 8 and 4/5 times it made the top 4 split (we always do this because it is fair). I also made it to a top 4 split at the Atlanta Grand Prix Legacy Side Event going 4-0-2 and winning some 45ish packs. So I think I understand the deck.

What is my build? This really makes me angry, READ THE THREAD! My list is posted all over the place with updates, and reasons for the updates, as well as numerous tournament reports with my thoughts on certain cards. This may be able to be avoided if we had a primer and a few lists with card explanations, but still. Please educate yourself a little on the deck you play before posting.

As far as SB goes, it is me and one other person who bring Dredge up to the tournament. I have never played the matchup with this deck in a tournament setting so I choose to not play Leyline of the Void. Extirpate serves multiple purposes, where Leyline is for Dredge (won't play against it) and Aggro Loam (won't play against it either since me and one other person are the only ones who played it). That is the SB I would take into an unknown meta. Goyf Sligh and Burn are very winnable matches, but I don't want to take a 50/50 matchup against them, I want an edge so I play COP: Red. Multiple Hierarchs is enough to win but you can't reliably mull into multiple Hierarch hands and COP: Red + Hierarch is bad fucking news for them.

Since the combo matchup is .... maybe 20% winnable (that is being kind) I choose to not play combo hate aside from Extirpate because it won't help the matchup much at all. My personal SB strategy is to maximize my chances of winning the matchups that are somewhat-very winnable as opposed to making a hideous matchup into a moderately bad matchup. Plus there is very little combo in my meta.

from Cairo
01-27-2009, 05:28 PM
As far as SBs go, this is optimized for a random meta:

3x Choke
3x COP: Red
3x Extirpate
3x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip

For a random meta 3x COP: Red does not seem optimal.

COP: Red seems really narrow and overkill with Plague, why not something like Chalice of the Void which would help Burn/Goyf Sligh, and can also come in against combo?

Facevaulter
01-27-2009, 10:59 PM
Well gents, GP time approaches and I'm searching for opinion on my list. Please don't be too brutal.

// Lands
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Savannah
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Windswept Heath
1 Scrubland
2 Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Dark Confidant

// Spells
3 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chrome Mox
2 Profane Command
3 Engineered Explosives / P. Deed (still unsure on this sweeper slot)
4 Unearth

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Relic of Progen.
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Jotun Grunt

Its land light as it curves out very early and witness tricks with unearth can be fun. It maybe a little less agile than I anticipate though so any criticism is welcome.

Mordel
01-27-2009, 11:29 PM
That looks more like a funkbrew deck than Rock.

J.V.
01-28-2009, 12:31 AM
Birds is probably a better fit than Chrome Mox, It doesn't give you the card disadvantage, is a better color fix than Mox and plays nicely with Doran. Another thing, Treetop village is garbage, in a format of wasteland CIPT lands will strait up lose you games. Also what are you planning to do in the combo matchup? Your side should probably have something to better deal with the two big archetypes you should be expecting to see; Aggro Control (Threshold, Dreadstill, Etc) and Storm Combo (ANT & TES)
I would probably make the following changes:

Lands:21
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains

// Creatures:18
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
3 Doran, the Siege Tower

// Noncreature Spells:21
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Unearth

// Sideboard
3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
3 Orim's Chant
3 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt (Do to your own goyfs and Volrath's Strong hold relic can hurt you too much)


A few other changes:
Cabal Therapy > Hymn to Tourach in a deck like this (especially when you play Unearth.
Volrath's Stronghold makes your late game near unloseable.

morgan_coke
01-28-2009, 03:35 AM
Has everyone just plain forgotten about Nantuko Monastery? If you're going to play a manland that requires two mana to activate, and you're already in green and white, why in the hell would you play Treetop Village over this? I r confused.

electrolyze
01-28-2009, 04:04 AM
@j.v. and maybe others,

I like that build, very simple but strong i think. Only one question, is reanimate not just better in the unearth slot since it can target your opponent too? I dont think the life loss is that big of an concern and the cycling wasnt used that much at all i guess.

And are the reanimate spells realy that neccesary since youre already running many removal spells and eternal witness. Is sensei's top not better for the deck?

sauce
01-28-2009, 09:25 AM
Has everyone just plain forgotten about Nantuko Monastery? If you're going to play a manland that requires two mana to activate, and you're already in green and white, why in the hell would you play Treetop Village over this? I r confused.

because treetop village has trample and makes green mana.
you dont need threshold to beat in for 3 and it crushes the rest of format's creatures besides select few.

citanul
01-28-2009, 09:28 AM
I'd still go for Factory over Treetop, especially since you run 3. They hit for less but don't come into play tapped, block for the same amount, cost less to animate and are great in multiples.

from Cairo
01-28-2009, 11:07 AM
because treetop village has trample and makes green mana.
you dont need threshold to beat in for 3 and it crushes the rest of format's creatures besides select few.

Disagree.

The fact that it has trample is rarely relevant most of the time the opponent has no blocker, a utility they don't want to block with, or a creature that's 3/3+, in any of those cases it having trample is irrelevant.

Producing green is fine and all, but coming into play tapped is a much bigger drawback than producing colorless. IE with a Treetop Village, Bayou hand you have to chose to play discard turn 1 and suffer tempo loss turn 2, or play the Village turn 1 and give your opponent another turn to work with their cards in hand. With a Nantuko Monastery, Bayou hand you can play out a Bird or Thoughtseize turn 1 and follow it with a Tarmogoyf turn 2 without having to limit your plays by a land with a huge tempo set back.

Not needing threshold is valid, there will be cases where you don't have 7 in the yard and might otherwise be able to be utilizing a manland. But at the same time in a deck with 6-8 Discard spells and 4-7 fetchs, getting 7 cards into the yard seems like it will happen in the mid game pretty reliably. Also alot of the time in the early game, you'd be using the land for mana production anyway.

Finally a 3/3 does not crush most of the formats creatures... Tarmogoyf is most of the formats creatures and its reliably 3/4+, not to mention looking at the decks in the DTB forum: Team America's Tombstalker, Thresh's Mystic Enforcer, Agro Loam's Countryside Crushers and Terravores, Dreadstill's Dreadnaughts. Most of the top tier decks that are packing creatures are playing ones that are larger than Treetop Village.

Personally I would rank them as Mishra's Factory being best (due to not coming into play tapped, becoming more powerful in multiples and costing the least to activate), Nantuko Monastery second (being largest, having first strike, not coming into play tapped; downside being reliant on gy) and Treetop Village being the least viable of the 3 man lands (due to tempo hit, and mostly irrelevant benefits over the other two).

sauce
01-28-2009, 01:04 PM
Disagree.

The fact that it has trample is rarely relevant most of the time the opponent has no blocker, a utility they don't want to block with, or a creature that's 3/3+, in any of those cases it having trample is irrelevant.

Producing green is fine and all, but coming into play tapped is a much bigger drawback than producing colorless. IE with a Treetop Village, Bayou hand you have to chose to play discard turn 1 and suffer tempo loss turn 2, or play the Village turn 1 and give your opponent another turn to work with their cards in hand. With a Nantuko Monastery, Bayou hand you can play out a Bird or Thoughtseize turn 1 and follow it with a Tarmogoyf turn 2 without having to limit your plays by a land with a huge tempo set back.

Not needing threshold is valid, there will be cases where you don't have 7 in the yard and might otherwise be able to be utilizing a manland. But at the same time in a deck with 6-8 Discard spells and 4-7 fetchs, getting 7 cards into the yard seems like it will happen in the mid game pretty reliably. Also alot of the time in the early game, you'd be using the land for mana production anyway.

Finally a 3/3 does not crush most of the formats creatures... Tarmogoyf is most of the formats creatures and its reliably 3/4+, not to mention looking at the decks in the DTB forum: Team America's Tombstalker, Thresh's Mystic Enforcer, Agro Loam's Countryside Crushers and Terravores, Dreadstill's Dreadnaughts. Most of the top tier decks that are packing creatures are playing ones that are larger than Treetop Village.

Personally I would rank them as Mishra's Factory being best (due to not coming into play tapped, becoming more powerful in multiples and costing the least to activate), Nantuko Monastery second (being largest, having first strike, not coming into play tapped; downside being reliant on gy) and Treetop Village being the least viable of the 3 man lands (due to tempo hit, and mostly irrelevant benefits over the other two).

we run different lists, i dont run birds, i obviously said most of formats creatures like the ones you chose to omit.
treetop is also awesome against landstill as it takes 2 factories to just trade w/ one of them.

it also stops early attacks from dark confidant, nimble mongoose, trades with small goyfs, etc.

it makes green, which helps MY build. if you don't draw any land after your initial draw of bayou, treetop, you got bigger problems than tempo.

secondly, MY rock build is not THE BEATDOWN initially, it is playing CONTROL early on and beatdown later. So "tempo loss" early on is not an issue for my build. I don't attempt to go on the offensive w/ a treetop early on.
If that is all I can do, then I will do it.

also, please explain how could peter win danish legacy champs 2008 with this build:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21692

it is obviously so bad since it runs no monasteries or factories.

morgan_coke
01-28-2009, 01:26 PM
treetop is also awesome against landstill as it takes 2 factories to just trade w/ one of them.

Fail. One factory trades with treetop. They activate it, it blocks and taps to give itself +1/+1, making it a 3/3, making it trade with treetop.

If you're playing control and beating late, then Monastery is by far the best option for you since late game you will almost always have threshold barring someone popping a relic. Also, if you're picking best manland vs. landstill, again, it's Monastery as it takes three factorys to kill it due to 4/4 first strikeyness.

sauce
01-28-2009, 02:13 PM
Fail. One factory trades with treetop. They activate it, it blocks and taps to give itself +1/+1, making it a 3/3, making it trade with treetop.

If you're playing control and beating late, then Monastery is by far the best option for you since late game you will almost always have threshold barring someone popping a relic. Also, if you're picking best manland vs. landstill, again, it's Monastery as it takes three factorys to kill it due to 4/4 first strikeyness.

not attacking, blocking... so it takes 2 factories.

Facevaulter
01-28-2009, 07:43 PM
@ JV thanks for the list update, I'll give that list a test tonight and Volrath's be a sure inclusion in any future build.

from Cairo
01-28-2009, 10:35 PM
we i obviously said most of formats creatures like the ones you chose to omit.

And I replied Tarmogoyf is most of the format's creatures, theres only a hanful of small creatures that see play Dark Confidant, Nimble Mongoose, Goblins... All the manlands can deal with them and live, its just that Treetop Village takes 2 mana to activate and block and has to come into play tapped.


treetop is also awesome against landstill as it takes 2 factories to just trade w/ one of them.

Factory trades 1 for 1 with Treetop Village, one obviously would tap the Factory after declaring it as a blocker. Village would deter someone from attacking with a Factory no more so than an opposing Factory or Monastary.


it also stops early attacks from dark confidant, nimble mongoose, trades with small goyfs, etc.

So do the other man lands.


it makes green, which helps MY build. if you don't draw any land after your initial draw of bayou, treetop, you got bigger problems than tempo.

Clearly. My point was Treetop Village is going to limit avenues of play because it comes into play tapped, and that the ability to add green with the cost of coming into play tapped, is more detrimental to early game development than producing colorless.


secondly, MY rock build is not THE BEATDOWN initially, it is playing CONTROL early on and beatdown later. So "tempo loss" early on is not an issue for my build. I don't attempt to go on the offensive w/ a treetop early on.
If that is all I can do, then I will do it.

Regardless it's going to have 1, 2 and 3 mana spells that can't be cast on their respective turns with a comes into play tapped land. Whether they are control cards or aggressive ones is a moot point.



also, please explain how could peter win danish legacy champs 2008 with this build:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21692

it is obviously so bad since it runs no monasteries or factories.

Right, cause sub optimal decks have never placed in any events, if anything does win an event its clearly the perfect build and no one should question a card choice in it.........

sauce
01-30-2009, 08:19 AM
And I replied Tarmogoyf is most of the format's creatures, theres only a hanful of small creatures that see play Dark Confidant, Nimble Mongoose, Goblins... All the manlands can deal with them and live, its just that Treetop Village takes 2 mana to activate and block and has to come into play tapped.



Factory trades 1 for 1 with Treetop Village, one obviously would tap the Factory after declaring it as a blocker. Village would deter someone from attacking with a Factory no more so than an opposing Factory or Monastary.



So do the other man lands.



Clearly. My point was Treetop Village is going to limit avenues of play because it comes into play tapped, and that the ability to add green with the cost of coming into play tapped, is more detrimental to early game development than producing colorless.



Regardless it's going to have 1, 2 and 3 mana spells that can't be cast on their respective turns with a comes into play tapped land. Whether they are control cards or aggressive ones is a moot point.



Right, cause sub optimal decks have never placed in any events, if anything does win an event its clearly the perfect build and no one should question a card choice in it.........

here is another suboptimal deck placing:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23005

oh my more treetop villages

from Cairo
01-30-2009, 10:30 AM
You still haven't been able to refute a single point against Village. It's coming into play tapped is a serious drawback, the fact that it's not superior to Factory and costs more to activate is a serious drawback, the fact it has no synergy in multiples is a drawback, the fact that Monastery is a much superior creature any time after you hit 7 cards in the yard is a drawback.

sauce
01-30-2009, 10:42 AM
You still haven't been able to refute a single point against Village. It's coming into play tapped is a serious drawback, the fact that it's not superior to Factory and costs more to activate is a serious drawback, the fact it has no synergy in multiples is a drawback, the fact that Monastery is a much superior creature any time after you hit 7 cards in the yard is a drawback.

it is the bomb diggity cuz it makes green mana, who cares if it citp, youre not gonna play it turn 1 vs combo, and btw the other man lands dont help you vs combo (to make black mana) anyway.

this land is the most solid man land, thats why everyone plays it that has green in their deck instead of factory or nantuko monastery.
monastery is only good after threshold, which is when u should be winning anyway, while treetop helps make mana and stops opponent from pumping you in the face with a mongoose every turn.

georgjorge
01-30-2009, 10:58 AM
this land is the most solid man land, thats why everyone plays it that has green in their deck instead of factory or nantuko monastery.

Here you're starting to lose credibility. A lot.

Decks that run green, but play Factory nonetheless: Ug Dreadstill, 4c Landstill.

Decks that run green and play both: 42lands.dec.

Decks that play Village over Factory: None, other than those Rock variants you are talking about.

sauce
01-30-2009, 11:20 AM
Here you're starting to lose credibility. A lot.

Decks that run green, but play Factory nonetheless: Ug Dreadstill, 4c Landstill.

Decks that run green and play both: 42lands.dec.

Decks that play Village over Factory: None, other than those Rock variants you are talking about.

i was exaggerating of course, but i don't know what else to say, i think good decks can be built using either land (factory or treetop.)
i just noticed that most recent "the rock" archtype decks in top8s on deckcheck ran treetops.

Mordel
01-30-2009, 01:30 PM
Top eights on deckcheck aren't exactly the holy grail of deck references either. Lots of tournies that show up on it are little we tournies with like twenty people. Why not check and see how many treetop villages you see in BG aggro/ctrl decks that appear and the GP?


i was exaggerating of course, but i don't know what else to say, i think good decks can be built using either land (factory or treetop.)

Smacks of backpedaling imo. Treetops aren't that shit hot, many people have actually tested them and know this to be true. The main reason is because lots of people used to run village in their rock decks...about eight years ago. There is a clear reason why that has changed over time.

I don't know who else I am speaking on behalf of when I say this, but I played lots of extended when real rock was played in it, have played numerous incarnations since and I am quite familiar with the advantages of treetop and quite frankly; they don't matter anymore as far as I am concerned.

If you want to keep running it, go for it, but it isn't accepted as an optimum man land choice anymore by lots of people.

b4r0n
01-30-2009, 02:21 PM
Now that we've agreed on how Treetop Village is terrible, a more relevant question: is there any reason not to run 4 Pernicious Deed? That card seems like the main/only reason to run this deck over, say, Survival.

Other than that, I think J.V.'s list is pretty optimal. Has Crypt versus Extirpate been discussed with regards to The Rock? Or is it not worth starting up that whole argument again?

Mordel
01-30-2009, 03:43 PM
Well, I've been running into a lot more random jank lately, so I've switched to BG(w) due to its ability to handle random jank.

I personally don't see a reason to run less than four deeds if only to ensure that you see them frequently. I can understand running only three though if someone doesn't see a large proliferation of blue or needed to cut a card desperately and felt that they only pop a deed once before winning most games, run tops and such, so three can be afforded.

I personally see lots of jank that runs blue, so four deeds is the number for me despite the fact that I seldom explode a deed more than once in a game.

Actually, even in a BGw survival list that I have been playing with, there are three deeds, heh.

In my BG's sideboard, I actually have three extirpates that I rarely side in and two crypts. Lately, I have been strongly considering merging those slots into four crypts, so I can bring in a fourth grip or an extra duress.

Extirpates seem like a great card in theory to get stuff that would normally be backbreaking out of the game to me...I've sided them in only a few times, but I have not regretted it when I have. They have been great to get rid of stifles in the past (which I find annoying) standstills, opposing relics, magus of the moon and o-rings.

I'm kind of hung up on how awesome extirpate has been for me in a few occasions and it's theoretical potential though. If there was something new that I ended up seeing a lot and something needed to go, extirpates would be my first pick at what gets the axe to make room for whatever.

Valarne
02-01-2009, 02:57 PM
With your discussion of man-lands, I'd like to mention Forbidding Watchtower. Wouldn't it be the best in the versions running Doran? It can block your standard 4/5 Goyf pre-Doran, and it hits hard post-Doran.

Have you considered it?

Eatatjoes
02-01-2009, 05:13 PM
With your discussion of man-lands, I'd like to mention Forbidding Watchtower. Wouldn't it be the best in the versions running Doran? It can block your standard 4/5 Goyf pre-Doran, and it hits hard post-Doran.

Have you considered it?

Forbidding watchtower is garbage. I dont think ive ever even seen a mono white deck play them. Also, the doran versions are aggro builds, they dont want to waste time stalling, doran is the beatdown. Why would we be worried about blocking with a land, when we have, doran/goyf/tombstalker, and mass creature kill, and pinpoint removal spells.

johanessen
02-16-2009, 02:22 PM
I suggest people who like playing rock to make a visit on this post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12809

thanks

Corwin
02-17-2009, 04:23 PM
So, is this thread dead? Come on guys, has anyone tried any new conflux card that may fit well in the deck?

Captain Hammer
02-17-2009, 05:25 PM
Conflux cards...

Well if you're playing a build that plays Wastelands similar to citunal's, imo Knight of Reliquary is worth testing.

Citunal,

Have you consider Knight of Reliquary in your The Rock list? Along with being a solid beater that can pump himself up by +2/+2 anytime he feels like it, Knight does all sorts of neat tricks with fetchlands, wastelands, and manlands. His ability to grab a wasteland anytime he feels like it, all while pumping himself up, is really useful.

Also, have you run into any of the decks that are maindecking Reliq of Progenitus such as Merfolk? It seems like that card would hurt a big chunk of your deck. What has your experince been with Reliq?

Corwin
02-17-2009, 07:03 PM
I started to play this deck today, I tested it with a friend that plays Merfolk, Mono Black Control and Death and Taxes, but usually we don't side, so I didn't try it against such a treat as Relic, but I should since my deck plays Cabal Therapy and Unearth, it worked pretty well, but I guess that cards like Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt are the reason why Cabal and Unearth aren't played in this deck. Anyway, they can side with 4 Relic/Crypt, ok they can remove my grave 1 time, 2 times, but after that stop! I mean, in many of the matches I played, at the end there were more cards in the yard than in the library!
Anyway these are just my thoughts, the only to know is to test it against a deck with sideboard.
Oh and I don't play wastelands, just a volrath stronghold, the other lands are fetch/duals/basics.

citanul
02-18-2009, 03:38 AM
Have you consider Knight of Reliquary in your The Rock list? Along with being a solid beater that can pump himself up by +2/+2 anytime he feels like it, Knight does all sorts of neat tricks with fetchlands, wastelands, and manlands. His ability to grab a wasteland anytime he feels like it, all while pumping himself up, is really useful.

Also, have you run into any of the decks that are maindecking Reliq of Progenitus such as Merfolk? It seems like that card would hurt a big chunk of your deck. What has your experince been with Reliq?


We are currently testing 2 Knight of the Reliquary. Running it through a tournament on Sunday 8th of March before I can be sure. For now, I like the card in general as it fits the deck but won't keep it in because it does nothing to improve any bad matchups. I'd rather play Kitchen Finks for the life gain to be better against Burn, Goyf Sligh or anything with direct damage for that matter.

After a recent 2nd place of Merfolk we proxied the deck and started testing against it. So far, the results are to limited to really give a complete analyses. Their Standstills are not as good due to Factory + Waste in our Rock deck. The abundance of targetted removal combined with big creatures puts a stop to their assault rather quick and pushes the game into mid/lategame, just where we want it.

I did have some experience with playing against Relic and graveyard removal in general for that matter. The list we play is barely graveyard based. We don't run Eternal Witness anymore just to avoid graveyard hate being efficient. I do think it depends on the ability of the opponent to read and play the game. For Tombstalker they need to remove the graveyard asap or it will have no effect, to make Goyf a 0/1 they need to be sure I don't have fetchland/instant. The only bad thing it does is killing my Grunt during next upkeep.

I left out LftL in the previous paragraph to give it one of it's own. I'm rather happy if the opponent sides in graveyard hate against LftL, the card isn't as impacting in this deck as it is in others. To hit LftL they need to let it resolve first (unless it is discarded/countered) which is the only thing I want anyway, extra land drops. In the meantime they are wasting resources to hate the card out, even after it has done it's effect. But just hitting a LftL is hard enough when there's a Sensei's Divining Top in play. Just switch in response, dredge three cards, get Loam back, SDT on top and their effort was wasted.

Short version: The deck doesn't suffer a lot from graveyard hate, it might even be an advantage if the opponent does side it in.



Citunal,


It's Citanul ;) Lunatic spelled backwards.

As for the Primer, you asked about it in a different thread which is locked now so I'll answer it here. I have it in a word document on my computer, the problem lies with the forum. Due to it's length the post dissapeared after trying to update it. I have asked the moderaters for help but even they can't fix it like you can see with the update message: '*attempting to fix'.

I have come up with a solution, a rather messy one, of opening a new thread (again), reffering to the this one with a mentioning of the why. The Primer will be split in several different posts so that future updates won't cause the same problem.

Clark Kant
02-18-2009, 04:37 AM
Is there any reason you play Factories instead of Nantuko Monastaries. Or do you play both?

I would also be careful about starting a new thread here. Like Hammer just saw first hand, a couple of the people here can be dicks.

Also, I'm getting ready for the GP. From what either of you can tell, are a lot of people planning to take Rock type decks to Chicago?

And the main thing I am interested to find out about is your sideboard. What does it look like? Pithing Needle? Krosan Grip? Tormod's Crypt? Do you play Choke or do you play Tsunami? Which cards do you like the most? You can PM me if you don't want to give out that info so close to the GP, and I'll let you guys in on what I am taking to the GP.

citanul
02-18-2009, 05:07 AM
Nantuko Monasteries require Treshhold, Factory does not. While I play Jotun Grunt and Tombstalker I cannot afford to be more dependant on my graveyard.

The starting of a thread here is different, it's the same primer as it was in this thread. You'll see when it ever gets posted again.

I do think some people will play Rock like others will play their petdeck and a large crowd will be playing more popular decks like TA, Dreadstill, landstill. There will alse be a number of Goblins, Combo so it's best to be prepared against these 5 sort of decks and know how to play against them.
Rock has a good matchup against random stuff so for day1 it is a very good choice, for day2, when most of those decks have been filtered out it will become harder to succeed but very possible. I do fear that if one gets into top8 it will probably not win it because the type of decks in the top8 will be solid with good pilots and the chances of winning/losing might just be a coinflip. I wouldn't bet on the deck with 3 coinflips coming up.

My sideboard is as followed:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Choke
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Thorn of Amethyst

It's very broad and limited in specific hate. Grip is for Counterbalance or other forms of enchantments/Artifacts.
Choke against blue based decks over Tsunami. It's cheaper and has a lasting effect while Tsunami won't stop future lands. If it was Instant I might've considered it. You need something against blue for sure. You can play Gutteral Response, Choke, Tsunami or other forms of hate but I wouldn't go without any blue hate.
Tormod's Crypt over Relic to keep my own graveyard. I mainly side these in against Ichorid, the rest is beign handled by Grunts. Only against Agro Loam I tend to side in 2.
Thorn of Amethyst against combo. I only run 4 Thoughtseize main to stop them so I need the help. Thorn slows them down in going of and in finding an answer, it even slows their mana accel. The time given by this can bring a 2nd Thorn which is usually gg or apply enough beats to ensure a victory. I'd run more hate for combo if I had the spots.

Legacy
02-20-2009, 12:56 PM
As far as SBs go, this is optimized for a random meta:

3x Choke
3x COP: Red
3x Extirpate
3x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip

i am having problems with deciding on a sb. I run 3 kitchen finks and 3 loxodon hierarchs so i dont' think i need the cop: red. Is krosan grip necessary? i run 3 deed and 4 vindicate. most my list is 3cc to get around counter balance or is that not enough to beat the counter top? Engineered Plague, would EE be better in all situations and more except maybe against goblins?

And i prefer to kick combo's ass if i can and not sit down and take it haha. Instead of choke maybe 4 duress. i have 4 thoughtseize main board. so side in 4 duress and 4 extirpate,you can hand hate then extirpate there main win.

so maybe something like this.

Sideboard:
4 Extirpate
4 Duress
1 Gaea's Blessing
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt.

Thanks for your posts.

throst54
02-20-2009, 07:25 PM
this is my current SB for BG no splash

3 Extirpate
4 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Haunting Echoes
2 Hymn to Tourach

The crypts are liable to turning into +1 Extirpate +2/3 Duress +1/0 Hymn

It looks like theres a lot of GY removal, but they are all for different matchups, you never side in Crypt, Echoes, *and* extirpate.

If you're having problem w/ goblins run you 4th deed SB with 2-3 Damnation.
Crime/Punishment is also a good option, I like it against Empty the Warrens.

damionblackgear
02-21-2009, 08:56 AM
Why not play Cannonist in the Builds that splash white? It seems to do better vs combo than a lot of the other stuff. Granted you need until turn 2 but a lot of the hate is just that slow (excluding duress).

3 Cannonist
3 Choke
3 K-grip
4 Leyline of the Void
2 ???

I just don't know what to do with the last 2 slots. I've thought about bringing Choke up to 4 or a little more combo hate but I can't figure out what to do with it.

Also I've been testing with knight and he's ok... If they bring in yard hate then you lose a lot. I'm running it in the witness slot because witness just didn't seem to be a great draw whenever I saw it.

It's been better to me than witness has but, I don't think it's a replacement for any of the other slots.

Legacy
02-21-2009, 12:19 PM
Changing the tormods will increase other combo MU but lessen the cephalid breakfast and icorid.

does anyone know if extirpating one card against combo will be enough to give us time to win? or do we need something permanent like thorn amethyst or the cannonist?

I don't think just 3-4 cannonist in a side board with out any other combo hate will do the job damionblackgear or do you mull till you get it? but then it is still 2 turns to play...

There is going to be a belcher deck and TES deck at my next tournament. IF extirpate and 8 hand hate is not enough then I am going to use thorn amethyst. I would think that duress and thoughtseize are crucial to stall till you get a thorn in play because when you are on the draw they get 3 turns so duress should be in the sb.

there is still icorid and cephalid breakfast as prominent combo decks so we need some graveyard hate. I run sakura so that helps with icorid. i guess tormods or leylines.

4 thouthseize main

sideboard
4 duress
4 thorn amethyst
3 tormod's / leylines
1 Gaea's Blessing
3 Engineered Explosives (set at 2 kills narcomeoba so they can't dread return or kills tokens againts empty the warrens and icorid plus a million other uses)

so basically it looks like i am deciding between thorn and extirpate...

as for cannonist i think i rather thorn amethyst because it is less vunerable ie doesn't care about creature hate. (though there is still gaddock teeg which is not an artifact but doesnt' go good with trying to cast all the black duress and thoughtseize plus still allows them to find answers with issues.)

The Rock is strong against every deck and with this sideboard can maybe beat combo too.

Deviruchi
02-21-2009, 01:14 PM
I can't imagine SB without:

3-4x Choke
1-3x K. Grip

Other slots are very flexible. Now my SB looks like:

3x Choke
4x Duress
2x E. Explosives
3x E. Plague
3x Krosan Grip

Corwin
02-21-2009, 04:37 PM
Could you please give me an advice? This is my current list:


// Lands
4 [R] Bayou
1 [U] Scrubland
3 [A] Savannah
2 [9E] Plains (2)
2 [7E] Swamp (3)
2 [TSP] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [UL] Unearth
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy

I'm going to replace Unearth soon, I think with Hymn to Tourach. I know my deck is vulnerable to graveyard hate, so I would like to improve it, and I think the first thing to do is to remove the Unearths, even if it is probably one of my favorite cards in this deck, because of the sinergy with witness and cabal.
What do you think?

damionblackgear
02-22-2009, 09:37 AM
@legacy - I tend to not mull, if I don't have to. The cannonist costing 2 is a big bit of a gamble. Stone also cost 2 though (granted it has no color requirement but I think that's easy enough to fix). Besides, a good Belcher player will already have combo'ed off by 2 (if not turn 1) most of the time, so there isn't much that we can do except hope for an answer if we go first. Happily, if their going first game 2 we get another chance.

I think the questionmark spot will end up either being 2 duress or 2 explosives. Both of which I forgot about...

Just a thought though... The "newer" versions of Rock all look to be turning into Eva Green splash white.

overseer1234
02-23-2009, 07:14 AM
Well Ive decided to toy aroud with a BG rock variant because I got bored of EVA Green variants and I didn't need to buy a shitload of cards to build it :)

After some searching and testing with different builds this is the one that suited me most:

B/G Rock
Main Deck:

creature [18]
3 Eternal Witness
2 Krosan Tusker
3 Ravenous Baloth
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

instant [6]
3 Putrefy
3 Smother

sorcery [8]
2 Duress
1 Profane Command
4 Thoughtseize

enchantment [4]
4 Pernicious Deed

artifact [3]
3 Sensei's Divining Top

land [22]
4 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

60 cards

Sideboard:
2 Darkblast
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte

15 cards


I choose to play BG because I don't have vindicates and scrublands (yet) so some pointers would be apreciated, since I like this deck more then EVA Green (More options/answers), and it's way more consistent/resilient

Ohw and the random profane command really wins games :D

Greetzzz & Thanks,
Robin.

Legacy
02-25-2009, 05:49 PM
your combo match up seems to be lacking.

I can see maybe the BG version having krosan grip sb because they dont' have vindicates.

And do Rock decks really need Krosan grip in sb? Don't we have a high enough mana cost to get around counter balance?

What do you side your jittes in against and how is darkblast working over engineered plague?

sauce
02-25-2009, 05:54 PM
your combo match up seems to be lacking.

I can see maybe the BG version having krosan grip sb because they dont' have vindicates.

And do Rock decks really need Krosan grip in sb? Don't we have a high enough mana cost to get around counter balance?

What do you side your jittes in against?

no, you don't need krosan grips.

citanul
02-26-2009, 03:24 AM
no, you don't need krosan grips.


Depends a lot on your metagame. I'd use them and say that you need them. Scepter/Chant hurts, CB players do have 3 CC in their deck and/or extra counters and random artifacts/Enchantments do exist.

damionblackgear
02-26-2009, 09:35 AM
What are we doing about the Progenitus deck? I've cut swords and used Edicts now. It's been working but I'm expecting this deck to pop up since it's really solid, even though it's still being tuned.

citanul
02-26-2009, 10:44 AM
What are we doing about the Progenitus deck? I've cut swords and used Edicts now. It's been working but I'm expecting this deck to pop up since it's really solid, even though it's still being tuned.


Cutting swords seems like a bad idea, what about turn1 Lackey?
I don't know yet if I am going to make room for anything against Progenitus, want to see it posting more results first before I weaken my own deck. If anything I'd cut 3 Shriekmaw for 3 Edict, either Chainer or Diabolic.

You can't live in constant fear of certain cards :).

Nihil Credo
02-26-2009, 11:49 AM
In many builds Fleshbag Marauder should probably be played over Shriekmaw anyway.

Legacy
02-26-2009, 02:50 PM
What are we doing about the Progenitus deck? I've cut swords and used Edicts now. It's been working but I'm expecting this deck to pop up since it's really solid, even though it's still being tuned.

The sacrifice effect cards are only good if Progenitus is the only creature that they have out. And using non swords will just weaken every other match up. Depending on your build, the best way i see it is to preemptively stop it with discard. I have 4 thoughtseize main, 4 duress side. Against thresh put all that hand hate in and hope to keep natural order out. Also i have gaddock teeg in my side board which stops natural order from being cast.

Another way to stop him would be wing shard type cards. (hopefully he just attacks with Progenitus)

throst54
02-26-2009, 06:47 PM
Double white is a pain to get especially when its your splash color.
Fleshbag Marauder and Diabolic Edict should do you just fine.
Atleast against Threshold, generally the only time sacrifice effects are uneffective are against decks with manlands (espcially if they have loam/Cruicible). Otherwise you run enough removal that you should be in good shape. I prefer Diabolic Edict against Threshold anyways. Them gaining 4-6 life off a goyf can be painful, and edict is better against Mongeese anyhow.

Mordel
02-27-2009, 04:05 PM
So I was thinking and about it the other day after I spoke with an acquaintance/buddy and with the rising popularity of combo as well as counterbalance and natural order decks, a rock build with insanely explosive/disruptive opening turns could be very good.

I was playing around with a GBr build that has veteran explorers, thoughtseize, terminate and cabal therapies as well as suprise red stuff in the sideboard. I haven't got a lot of matches in yet compared to other stuff that I have been playing with, but so far the deck can completely destroy a game before it has even started. With absurd turn sequences that go:

t1-thoughtseize
t2-explorer therapy, flashback, two lands, goyf, go

The problem I have been facing is that between the lands and thoughtseizes, the deck loses a fair amount of life as it stands for a deck that wants to have a decent midgame against random jank. So, this coupled with tombstalkers and an average cc of two or so would make confidants pretty ugly to add. As a result, I have been using this list:


// Lands
5 [US] Forest (4)
1 [U] Taiga
1 [TSP] Mountain (4)
4 [U] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [A] Bayou
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [PLC] Harmonize
4 [PS] Terminate
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [LRW] Profane Command
2 [FNM] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip


I am not married to the sideboard, but the sideboard isn't what I want to fix anyway.

What I think is more of an obstacle is fixing the issue of threats or their density to allow for a more consistent clock.

Edit:
I just tuned the list into this, which doesn't feel as "safe" necessarily, but it seems to cruise into the redzone better and has a bigger range of high-impact plays. I cut the lands down by one, even though I really loath mana screw. Badlands also seemed like a better fit than taiga.


// Lands
5 [US] Forest (4)
1 [TSP] Mountain (4)
3 [U] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [A] Bayou
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Badlands

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [PS] Terminate
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [FNM] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

throst54
02-28-2009, 03:48 PM
I like you list, just a couple of things-
Explorer and Blood Moon dont play nice together, while i suppose you could just side out the explorers for the Moons I dont know if you really want the moons.
I'd suggest playing Jund Charm in that spot, its very versatile and almost never a dead draw.

Also, play 3x Sensei's Divining Top, in a deck that is 50% answers you want to make sure you're drawing the right answer. It'll also make confidant a lot less painful, I'd drop the 3 swords for it.

All of your removal sits at 2cc, I'd either replace the smothers or 1x smother and 1x terminate for 2x Putrefy, Shriekmaw, or Fleshbag Maruader.

Playing 4x tombstalker can painful on the yard, im not saying its not doable (and often times when u hit dbl explorer u can just hardcast) but I'd knock it down to 3 and cut 1x witness or the profane command to stick in 2x of another threat.
You dont really get many more options for beaters from playing red outside of maybe Deus of Calamity or Rumbling Slum.
Spirit Monger may be the better choice.

Mordel
02-28-2009, 05:21 PM
Spiritmonger is beyond terrible in that regeneration is seldom useful, changing colours is useless, the inflation effect is also largely useless and the five mana cost is underwhelming for its vulnerability and size. I would sooner run gigapede.

Look at the list closer: there are three 'stalkers. You are mixing up the two lists or ignoring the edit altogether or something.

Explorer doesn't combine amazingly with bloodmoon, but honestly, with nine discard slots in the deck, four of which come back and rip out multiples, it has been working fine in the matches that I have been siding it in for.

While I like top, I thought about running it in this build and then I took the idea that top just improves card quality and does not actually fill any holes, like smashing my opponent's face.

One of the biggest reasons for going red is terminate, blasts and to a lesser extent, blood moons.

This is how the list has changed in the last day with testing...not a big change, but noticeable in that I was getting flooded with deeds that I wasn't using that much. As a result one got cut for another sword, which I am always finding myself wanting.


// Lands
5 [US] Forest (4)
1 [TSP] Mountain (4)
3 [U] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [A] Bayou
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Badlands

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [PS] Terminate
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
3 [FNM] Duress
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 4 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip


I have been thinking about white for vindicate and Teeg, but the blasts are proving absolutely awesome.

Jak
02-28-2009, 06:43 PM
Since you are playing red, have you tried Burning Tree Shaman?

throst54
02-28-2009, 06:44 PM
have you tested spiritmonger at all? Regeneration is useful in that wins ground wars, you just run him into opposing goyfs until hes big enough to kill them, while the strategy is sloppy, its effective. Personally I'd rather have something big with trample. I like Diety of Scars to an extent, because he tramples, contends with goyfs, and regens under a big deed. I dont know about your meta, but I blow deed for 8 against multiple Tombstalkers often.


While I like top, I thought about running it in this build and then I took the idea that top just improves card quality and does not actually fill any holes, like smashing my opponent's face.

With 8 fetches Top is going to help you find those threats a lot quicker.
And yeah, I think I probably mixed up the two lists.

I'll have to shuffle this up and try it out to give better input, but the idea of blasts SB sound pretty awesome.

Mordel
02-28-2009, 07:54 PM
I ran spiritmonger in a notably slower RockSur build that ground battles of attrition would happen more often with and I absolutely hated them. I also used to run them in the place of hermits back in the day. They were good then, but they absolutely suck now when most things that creatures die to don't leave room for regen.

I'm going to be thinking about what a white list may look like. There is one that uses them that I saw on deckcheck and it looked interesting in that it would capitalize on the disruption and burst of speed afforded by explorer by having goyfs and wishes to hate the opponent out of the game.

That sounds okay to me, but with the rise of thresh that runs NO+P, CB and combo, I find the idea of ending the game quickly with a blitz of discard, card advantage and hefty beats to be a bit more attractive.

Blasts are extremely sexy right now. Biggups to Emidln for mentioning how good they are. Nobody sees them coming.

Jund charm is cool and versatile, I just don't run them because I don't really see myself siding them in against many of the decks that I am aiming to rape with this build.

damionblackgear
03-01-2009, 01:44 AM
You can't live in constant fear of certain cards :).

While this is true I still do not want to get caught without an out to the situation. I'm not expecting Gobs to make a big impression since most people are expecting it too and planning accordingly.

On a brighter note. I went to a 56 person tournament and T8ed with the deck. Irronically I ended up taking Edicts out most matches (would have taken swords too though) My losses where to Uwr Thresh (my own play error) and Merfolk (still thinking on this one). So the deck is still good... sometimes it's the pilot's fault.

Pulp_Fiction
03-01-2009, 02:36 PM
@damianblackgear: Why would you ever take out StP for Edicts? Best spot removal ever getting cut just for 1x card??? Everyone is blowing Progenitus way the hell out of proportion. Its not that hard to deal with. In the SB run either Fleshbag Marauder (also good against Stiflenought) OR Circle of Protection: any color. In my Rock list I run COP: Red in the SB since I repeatedly play against Burn and Goyf Sligh. I am not trying to downplay how effective Natural Order + Progenitus is but seriously, don't get all freaked out about it and especially don't take out StP.

To sum up answers to Progenitus: Fleshbag Marauder (played for its CC against Counterbalance)

ANY Circle of Protection that isn't Lands or Artifacts. COP: Red and green will be the best choices I think!

damionblackgear
03-01-2009, 05:56 PM
Maybe I am over-reacting for the single card but, after some testing, I'm not noticing much of a difference between the two. I'm even starting to like edict over swords... now. I know that we can't hit a frist turn critter but what critter are we that worried about first turn. Edict + Deed have been solving every creature issue I could possibly have (including the one timmy deck that played troll and hooked up a jitte to it... I don't expect to see this again anytime soon). I've decided that I'm gonna test for the rest of this week with Edict and decide if I like it or not before Friday. There's another 1.5 Match on Thursday in my area so I think that'll be a good testing ground.

Legacy
03-04-2009, 10:26 AM
I was wondering what you guys thought about Loxodon Hierarch vs Kitchen Finks. Currently I am running Doran, the siege tower so I am leaning towards Loxodon Hierarch. Basically do you think that Loxodon Hierarch is too slow? I know that kitchen finks can really help against and fast aggro deck. Life gain and two turns of blocking and killing. Though I do run 4 Sakura Tribe Elders to help combat the quickness of other decks which leads me to my acces to 4 lands on my 3rd turn.

Thanks

Mordel
03-04-2009, 10:33 AM
Test the two and figure out which you like more.

I use finks in a Survival Rock build, but I bet my deck is quite different from yours.

Corwin
03-07-2009, 06:59 PM
Finks is very good, 2 turns of blocking and 4 life, and sometimes, when you need time, it's even you eternal witness target. I decided not to play loxodon in my deck, I preferred to put doran instead.

throst54
03-08-2009, 03:55 AM
It really depends on what kind of mana acceleration you run and what your curve looks like.
I like finks because of the often built in card advantage, but loxodon has a nice body that can often lead to him sticking around for quite a while- especially because deed is more oft blown at 3 than 4.

Legacy
03-08-2009, 04:25 PM
I would like to get some decks posted then others critique it. Explain what you think the decks weakness is and what its bad match ups would be. I will start with my list.

creature [20]
3 Dark Confidant
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Eternal Witness
3 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
instant [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [8]
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
enchantment [3]
3 Pernicious Deed
artifact [3]
3 Sensei's Divining Top
land [22]
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forest
2 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
60 cards
Sideboard:
1 Gaea’s Blessing
4 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
15 cards

I have tested against Adnaseum Storm deck. The 4 duress and 4 extirpate seem to be enough to beat it. Two hand hate cards plus a quick clock or extirpate will do it. Even extirpating the first dark ritual messes them up. The best is extirpating the mystical tutor haha. As for other matchups, the deck just has bigger threats and with sensei's divning top (11 shuffle effects) allowing me to draw business every turn, it is a very powerful deck.

So let me know and feel free to post yours and so we can discuss what is better.

overseer1234
03-10-2009, 08:37 AM
Allright, since I went Top 8 Last sunday With My BG rock deck I figured I's post a Small report on how the matchup's went :)

I didn't take note's so sorry if I left out some important facts.

First (obviously) the decklist:

B/G The Rock:
Main Deck:
3x Sensei’s Divining

2x Tombstalker
3x Eternal Witness
2x Krosan Tusker
3x Ravenous Baloth
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Tarmogoyf

4x Pernicious Deed

3x Smother
3x Putrefy

4x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Forest Land
3x Swamp
1x Volrath’s Stronghold
4x Wasteland
3x Wooded Foothills

2x Duress
1x Profane Command
4x Thoughtseize

Sideboard
2x Tormod’s Crypt
4x Engineered Plague
3x Choke
3x Extirpate
3x Krosan Grip

Some thinks worth mentioning:

Ravenous Ballot OWNED, the fact that it's almost impossible to STP, and the fact that is provide's a decent clock, and isn't easily blocked to death (looking at you kitchen finks) make's me question why people run finks over this guy...

Profane Command was so damn good I don't get why it doesn't show op in other decklists...

On to the matchup's:

Rond 1: Goyfsligh
G1: My sakura time walks his goyf, I drop balloth, is whit ness balloth and draw my next one (yeah, he knew it was over...)
G2: same as above, only ad in profane command for the kill+more balloth's
1-0

Rond 2: Faery Stompy
G1 he has a slow start, I resolve an early deed and tusker goe's for the throat
G2: he needle's dee, i putrefy needle play deed and command his sea drake to get back my balloth.
2-0

Round 3: F-MUC (played by the one and only Fahad himself)
G1: Eventualy he get's the best of me deed's shackle's and stuf fly over and over but eventualy he wins...
G2: we both get mana shy but I have top, find my 2nd land and uwe sakura to get into the game, I resolve choke (after duressing annul) and big bitches go FTW
G3: same as Game 2 but this time HE is manaflooded (when I duress and thoughtseize his FoF and shackles) and top just find's me what I need to keep on winning...
3-0

Round 4: Rgb Goblins
G1: I don't find my deed in time and goblins swarm the field
G2: This was nasty, I smother annoying stuff, and after dropping top I find 3 plague's +2 witnesses... GG? :D
G3: I go double deed, and again find 3 plague's. He scoops while I reveal my top card : the 4th plague
4-0

Round 5: Goblin
We ID :) I could've played but I know this guy and he's the best goblin player around... Also he's a good friend so we're Ok with the free time we have :)

Round 6: Solidarity
I'm just so happy he dicides to ID... That deck just kills me

Top 8:
UWB landstill (Speedstill)
G1: This is a long worn out game and eventually he resolve's elspeth and keeps my board clear...
G2: I bait a counter with a goyf he TAPS OUT to hardcast Fox (he didn't have Anny blue left in his hand), I play choke, and ride my bitches to victory
G3: I blew it with my 1 land hand that consists of: SDT, Duress, Thoughtseize, Swamp, Sakura tribe elder, E-witness, and some random card, I start with duress, I see 4 lands+landstill, Tideholow Sculler (yeah, WTF!!!!), and a vindicate... I never found my next land and that was that...


I hope anyone finds something useful in this (verry short) report. I'm very pleased with the deck since its so freaking consistent and everything short of land and sakura tribe elder is a bomb (against ichorid it just owns...) or a removal spell (deed= A bomb)


I go to pik up my price support (a judge foil cunning wish, and 3 booster of which one contains a noble hierarch...)

Prop's:
This deck for being so freaking badass
Tasty and cheap sandwiches :D
Boosters with not only crap
Nice mood
Friendly people

Slop's:
Me not mulling in the last game
The sandwiches running out
Nobody else from my team got in the top 8

Lcpdenijs
03-11-2009, 06:11 AM
Wondering what you guys think of my build.
It leans a little more to graveyard recursion, so I am quite vulnerable to graveyard hate.

4 Dark Confidant
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Unearth
3 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands
3 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
2 Savannah
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath

Corwin
03-11-2009, 02:34 PM
Your list is similar to mine, but I don't play neither top or sakura. I play instead +1 Witness, +1 Unearth, +4 Thoughtseize, +1 Vindicate. My problem is like yours, graveyard hate, I was thinking to put 2/3 Hymn to Tourach or Pithing Needle maindeck to help against it.
The obvious solution would be to cut Unearth, but we like the Eternal Witness trick so much :wink:

Legacy
03-11-2009, 02:54 PM
I don't really like the cabal therapy. Do you just wait for a kitchen finks to sac to it? STE usually it is good to get the land so you can ramp up to play deed and activate in the same turn or you want the land because most decks run wastelands. I would just run the 4 thoughtseize. I don't like Doran in your list, because you run Eternal Witness, KF and DC. If you want to keep Doran maybe try Loxodon Hierarch instead of the finks. Unearth you have to wait till one of your good creatures goes to the grave yard (and not be stp'd) I would rather another vindicate or another creature itself.

Media314r8
03-11-2009, 06:15 PM
@ profane: It's the god-damns, especially in lists running explorer or STE, and recurring witness/profane has won me many a game, as well as winning goyf battles while resurecting bobs, team fear/drain life 'overrun' effect, ect. I will throw my hat in for fleshbag, he's been great in testing, and is a recurring edict via stronghold or profane (as opposed to diabolic, which is more CB suseptable and can only be recurred by witness) and plays well with explorer. Recurring edicts in several ways has become more important with prognesis and dreadnaughts showing up more and more often.

Corwin
03-12-2009, 08:33 AM
I don't really like the cabal therapy. Do you just wait for a kitchen finks to sac to it? STE usually it is good to get the land so you can ramp up to play deed and activate in the same turn or you want the land because most decks run wastelands. I would just run the 4 thoughtseize. I don't like Doran in your list, because you run Eternal Witness, KF and DC. If you want to keep Doran maybe try Loxodon Hierarch instead of the finks. Unearth you have to wait till one of your good creatures goes to the grave yard (and not be stp'd) I would rather another vindicate or another creature itself.
Well with that decklist (and with mine decklist), you can even sacrifice a Tarmogoyf to Cabal, since you have witness+unearth. Doran is good, 5/5 cc3 is always good. And for the Loxodon, well I don't like it, it problably depends from your game style.
Anyway, we already said that that (and mine) decklist is vulnerable to graveyard hate, that's why more discard or pithing needle should probably be added.

Legacy
03-14-2009, 04:59 PM
Went to a small tournament. 3 rounds.

creature [20]
3 Dark Confidant
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Eternal Witness
3 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf

instant [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [8]
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

enchantment [3]
3 Pernicious Deed

artifact [3]
3 Sensei's Divining Top

land [22]
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forest
2 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
60 cards

Sideboard:
1 Gaea’s Blessing
4 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
15 cards

Round vs John with Prog. Thresh
Game 1
I mull to 6. He goes first. Basically I thoughtseize first turn take out goyf. He draws and plays top. We trade his bears for my swords. Eventually he gets a count balance but i get a deed and wipe the cb and wear bear. Eventually i get a top then i draw business from there, he is down to 5 i am at 7. I have Doran out. He then gets a natural order and sacs a moongoose gets progenitus. Before i draw i top, find a Hierarch 3 cards down. Draw that, play that go up to 11 life. He can't attack and i can't really since he is at 5. He gets a goyf then i get another deed. Then draw in to a goyf my self and win. GO Hiearch!!

Game 2
I side in 3 krosan grip and a duress. take out 4 sakura.
He has triple daze and i have triple thoughtseize. Though my thougthseize 2 and 3 resolve. I swords he werebear then vindicate his land then get a beat stick and win.

Round 2 vs Mike with Burn Still
I lose 0-2. Both games he gets 2nd turn standstill. His secret tech was Rolling Earthquake wiping my board sever times while hitting my health for a ton plus main board null rod which kills my senseis top and wins first game with land beats.
Second game i put in 4 duress and 3 engineered Plague and i notice he didnt' side anything so i took out my tops and sarkuras. He runs faiery conclave and mutavault plus mirshras factory. I duress first turn getting rolling earthquake. Second turn duress force of will. then he top decks a stand still . ugh, I have no beaters so i draw a bit but he gets a muatvault and factory down. so i thoughtseize into the standstill. He has lots of business i grab the other standstill. Eventually i sword his factory. He has out fairyconlcave and mutavault i put down Engineered Plague on faierys and a deed. (still no tarmogoyfs or Hierarhcs or dorans. Soon i see a doran but then he rolling earthquakes for 5. two turns later i play witness that gets stifled then he gets a bolt and a rolling earthquake for the win.

Round 3 Chris with goblins.
Game 1
I thoughtseize first turn, he gets me down a bit but i get a deed out. Then loxodon Hierarch then witness back the deed.
I side in 3 plagues.
Game 2
Swords lackey, He is kind land screwd so i vindicate his land, Witness back vindicate then hit his land. Then just run him over.

I end up second place.
Chokes would have been nice in the side. Usually combo shows up and such so that is why i had the extirpates.

Changes would be to add some chokes into the sideboard or find some instant discards ;) for those standstill top decks and add a 4th top.

lavafrogg
03-17-2009, 09:51 PM
PT Junk
Rene Jungbauer
Grand Prix-Chicago
4 thoughtseize
3 vindicate
4 swords to plowshares
4 dark confidant
4 serra avenger
4 tarmogoyf
3 jotun grunt
3 umezawa’s jitte
4 aether vial
4 scrubland
1 volrath’s stronghold
1 bayou
1 savannah
3 plains
3 wasteland
2 swamp
3 polluted delta
3 windswept heath
4 tidehollow sculler
2 krosan grip
Sideboard
2 krosan grip
4 true believer
3 tormod’s crypt
3 engineered explosives
1 jotun grunt
2 diabolic edict

Mira! This is a deck that made day two at the gp. It is alot like rock and alot like fish... two deck s that I love! Im thinking to somehow fit hymms into the list. Turn one vial... turn two hymm... turn three vial in sculler and play confidant ftw.

Incinerator
03-23-2009, 03:59 PM
Hey everybody. I check this board a lot so I finally decided to post in here. I've been playing and tinkering with the Rock for about 3 months now, and this is the finalized version I'm using.

Our metagame is really diverse, and I have done really well there. There are some goblins, lots of takes on blue+ control CB builds, thresh, burn, random aggro, and more. It's all over the map. In about 8 weeks I've played competitively, I've made top 8 5 or 6 times and top 4 once, out of 25-30 players each week. The only real major weaknesses seem to be Wasteland and combo decks.

Here's the latest version:
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Vindicate
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Troll Ascetic
2x Eternal Witness
3x Loxodon Hierarch
2x Spiritmonger

2x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Windswept Heath
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
3x Savannah
2x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Plains

SB:
4x Gaddock Teeg
4x Krosan Grip
4x Extirpate
1x Loxodon Hierarch
2x Massacre

I know, no Doran, and 4x Troll Ascetic? I was at 2 of them and 4 Hierarchs. Then I went to 3/3 and cut a basic for a second Stronghold, then went to 61 cards for the last troll. I don't regret it in the least with the environment right now.

Troll has been a house against a lot of decks. It survives the Deed wipe and doesn't get Shackled/Sowered, and blocks rampaging Goyfs that Doran would die to quickly. It's just been amazing for me, although admittedly I'd rather have Doran against Goblins. Most of the goblins I've run into splash white, which is the reason for the Massacres in the board. Gets around Port lock nicely, and most other aggro isn't a big problem except for sui black.

The biggest change I'd like to make is for either one more Eternal Witness or to cram in the fourth Hierarch in, but I don't know what to cut.

Any thoughts/comments/suggestions are welcome. I'll start by saying that combo is the lose, which is why I don't have even more combo hate in the board. Better just shore up the decent matches into great ones.

citanul
03-24-2009, 04:39 AM
You could remove Gaddock Teeg and Extirpate as I have no idea what they are against. Maybe there's a lot of loam decks and you run Extirpate for that? Even Jotun grunt does better against that deck than Extirpate.

Gaddock Teeg could be replaced by Thorn of Amethyst. It's true that Rock has a bad match up against combo. I managed to get some wins from them though by just using 4 thoughtseize, 4 Thorn and some fast beats.

Also, have you considered playing Dark Confidant? Your average curve seems low enough for it and you also play 3 SDT. Kitchen Finks might also be a contender if you face a lot of agro. Maybe these and Cabal Therapy in the side for combo?

I'm not convinced about Troll Ascetic but if he works for you I'll let it go :).

Legacy
03-28-2009, 11:12 AM
I was wondering what you guys think about dark blast vs engineered plague. I was playing against this elf deck and they are too quick and a lot of the elves have > 1 toughness. I was just thinking dark blasting their first turn elf then dredge and do in there second turn elf then it would be smooth sailing from there.

Also i was thinking if my opponent was running 4 dark confidant and and 4 tarmogoyf I would side them in as well, kills dark confidant and wins the goyf battles.

As rock players, do we need krosan grip in our side board?? I ask because we have 3-4 vindicate and 3-4 pernicious deeds. Isn't that enough to get around say counter balance because of the 3cc.

thanks

Ragnork
03-28-2009, 11:19 AM
Personally I run engineered plague in my meta primarily for Merfolk, which Darkblast isn't all that helpful against. Plague is also good agains Counterslivers, Goblins, and Elfball, even though it is slow at three mana. IMO it has alot more S/B uses than Darkblast does.

Krosan Grip is just great for getting under FoW / Daze in decks like Dreadstill and NLU.

citanul
03-30-2009, 03:22 AM
As rock players, do we need krosan grip in our side board?? I ask because we have 3-4 vindicate and 3-4 pernicious deeds. Isn't that enough to get around say counter balance because of the 3cc.


I keep noticing that more and more people are playing 2 and 3 mana cost for Counterbalance. If those two are on top I have to rely on 5 other cards in my entire deck. I'll stay with Grip for now.

overseer1234
03-31-2009, 08:03 AM
Okay, I went T8 again with my BG Rock deck a few weeks back (had the report typed in Word, but forgot to post it...) on the 15th of March.

So here go's :)

Decklist:

B/G The Rock:
Main Deck:
3x Sensei’s Divining

2x Tombstalker
3x Eternal Witness
2x Krosan Tusker
3x Ravenous Baloth
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Tarmogoyf

4x Pernicious Deed

3x Smother
3x Putrefy

4x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Forest Land
3x Swamp
1x Volrath’s Stronghold
4x Wasteland
3x Wooded Foothills

2x Duress
1x Profane Command
4x Thoughtseize

Sideboard
2x Tormod’s Crypt
4x Engineered Plague
3x Choke
3x Extirpate
3x Krosan Grip


Round 1: Tom with 4c-thresh
G1: this is a really long drawn out game (in the end SDT makes him look at half his deck...), we really go back and forth, whith balloth and his plow ginving me life while he keeps oon putting anoying stuf like goyf, bob and trygon on the board... eventually I win, but since there's onlly 3 minutes left in the round (and I'm allowed to shuffle 3 minutes) We don't get to play game 2. The game wasn't difficult, but i just couldn't find threat's enough (short of 2 balloth+stronghold but they kept on dodging plow's or chumping bigger goyfs and bashing stupid kitchen finks' until i found removal/whitnesed the removal back...)

Round 2: Melvin with UBg Tempo-thresh/Team America hybrid
G1: I start whith T1 top, T2 sakura, but then sakura gets stifles, my lands get wastelanded and sinkholed, and my deck doesnt give me anny land...
G2: We get into the game, but he resolves a early tombstalker, and i dont find an answer in time...

Round 3: Some guy playing Elf-Glimpse
G1: I lose bigtime since he kept on topdecking everything I made him discard and combo's out on turn 3...
G2: Get plague down, he grips, I witnes and replay, he plays champion, I smother it, i discard his sentinel and extirpate it, continu to discard and extirpate a gelimpse and it's GG (I didn't find any creature the entire game short of witnes)
G3: he gets a slow start, I get to go pretty fast with sakura and a shitload of pinpoint removal, eventually get donw some fat (balloths, goyfs,...) while I whitnes back my removal...

Round 4: Rb Goblin:
G1: i get a slow start (no sakura or top) and he gets the nuts (lackey, into a lot of green men) you do the math...
G2: I get down a turn 3 plague, topdeck some more and he concedes while balloth stare's at him
G3: he's manascrewed and me putrefying his vial didn't help him while i had deed+plague in the board

After the game he said his only chance of getting rid of plague was cabal therapy (witch he used 1 turn to soon, because I topdecked it just after he played it...)

Round 5: Stupid Burn
G1: play thoughtseize and take fireblast, he kills me before I get balloth down
G2: mull into balloth, duress a fireblast, extirpate it (he was holding another one and apparently topdecked another), play balloth, find stronghold in time and win from there.
G3: my opening hand is Sakura, forest, swamp, bayou and all of my 3 balloth's... he didn't stand a chance...

Round 6: ID and on to the T8

T8: Ilja playing his home brew welder survival build
G1: I steamroll him with goyfs, balloth's and tombstalker, while deed make sure he doesn't get to keep a lot in play...
G2: he just goes broken with T1 survival, T2 chain into welder, + anger+big robot and yeah...
G3: I thoughtseize, he doesn't have survival (take whatever), he topdecks survival, I grip, he topdecks whitnes, OK GG he goes nuts again...

Props:
3 people from our team getting into T8
Engineered plague for ruling 2 times :D
Ravenous balloth for being so badass :D
The really fun game against Tom.

Slop's:
Playing against our teammate Ilja in the first round of the T8
2 teammates getting paired against each other while both having to win to get in the T8...
God-awfull sandwiches.


Atm I'm testing haunting echoes in the profane command slot because in testing the Uw landstill matchup really is a bitch, and resolving the echoes is just an oops I win against them...