The french metagame

[Maveric78f]

For what it's worth, we have a very smart calculation of the Tiers 1/2/3 decks in France. Since beginning of September, we have a legacy championship that has started and this gives us access to statistics. Even if it is always difficult to classify decks, we managed to do this ranking:
1 Threshold Ugr 95 Pts (13 Perf.)
2 CounterSlivers 63 Pts (5 Perf.)
3 Goblins 58 Pts (8 Perf.)
4 Tarmo Sligh 54 Pts (4 Perf.)
5 Togless 45 Pts (8 Perf.)
6 Fish 4c 42 Pts (1 Perf.)
7 Aggro Loam 40 Pts (9 Perf.)
8 Mono Black 40 Pts (7 Perf.)
9 Burn 32 Pts (5 Perf.)
10 Dreaded Fish 32 Pts (4 Perf.)
11 Eternal Life 31 Pts (3 Perf.)
12 Dreadstill 27 Pts (6 Perf.)
13 Threshold Ugw 25 Pts (2 Perf.)
14 Blue Stax 24 Pts (4 Perf.)
15 Faerie Stompy 18 Pts (2 Perf.)
16 Rock GBw 18 Pts (7 Perf.)
17 Zoo 17 Pts (1 Perf.)
18 Multicombo Cannon Vault 17 Pts (1 Perf.)
19 Aluren 15 Pts (2 Perf.)
20 Eternal Garden 14 Pts (3 Perf.)
21 Pox 13 Pts (3 Perf.)
22 Predator Stompy 12 Pts (2 Perf.)
23 Ichorid 11 Pts (3 Perf.)
24 Ad nauseam 11 Pts (2 Perf.)
25 Dragon Stompy 8 Pts (1 Perf.)
26 Boros 8 Pts (1 Perf.)
27 Belcher 8 Pts (3 Perf.)
28 Affinity 7 Pts (3 Perf.)
29 Landstill Uwx 5 Pts (2 Perf.)
30 Faeries 5 Pts (2 Perf.)
31 Landstill UW 4 Pts (1 Perf.)
32 Flashless Hulk 4 Pts (1 Perf.)
33 U/W Control 3 Pts (3 Perf.)
34 Trinket Painter 3 Pts (2 Perf.)
35 Enchanteresse 3 Pts (1 Perf.)
36 Big Blue 3 Pts (2 Perf.)
37 Baseruption 3 Pts (2 Perf.)
38 Zoo Sligh 2 Pts (1 Perf.)
39 Terraguedon 2 Pts (1 Perf.)
40 Elves 2 Pts (2 Perf.)
41 Dragon Storm 2 Pts (1 Perf.)
42 Madness 2 Pts (1 Perf.)
43 Fish Ubw 1 Pts (1 Perf.)
44 White Stax 1 Pts (1 Perf.)
45 Taiga 1 Pts (1 Perf.)
46 Rogue 1 Pts (1 Perf.)
47 Rock GB 1 Pts (1 Perf.)
48 Pikula 1 Pts (1 Perf.)

The number on the left is the ranking. On the right is the total of points obtained by players in french tourneys with a given archetype. That's the basis for the ranking. On the right between parentheses, is the number of times the deck obtained points. For instance, Fish 4c had 42 points in a single tourney (200+ people attendance), while Aggro Loam had only 40 points after 9 tourneys.

We think that this is the best way to define tiers in legacy, because this ranking defines the power of the deck as well as its popularity. For instance, Burn, mono black and Gob are in the top10 probably because they are played a lot, compared to Sliver or Eternal Life (life combo).

Well, for the moment we miss data to have a fully reliable ranking, but it is a beginning.

As a first analysis, you can notice the absence of combo in our meta and a top10 that is very red.

Ps: for those who read french (and those who want updated info): http://www.legacy-france.com/index.php?showtopic=1908&pid=33664&st=0&#entry33664

[TheLion]

How is the ranking calculated?

I would just divide the number of points by the number of tournaments the deck performed at, to get the average points the deck obtained at a tournament.

But consider this:
39 Terraguedon 2 Pts (1 Perf.)
40 Elves 2 Pts (2 Perf.)
41 Dragon Storm 2 Pts (1 Perf.)

Elves would have 1 Pt. per Perf., while Terrageddon and Dragon Storm would have 2 Pt. per Perf.
Therefore I would consider Dragon Storm to have a higher ranking as Elves.

So what's the basis of your ranking?

[Maveric78f]

The calculation of points is a bit complex, taking into account, the number of players, the number of rounds and the existence of a top8. In a tourney of 39 persons with only 5 rounds and with a top8, here is how the points were distributed:
1 - 15Pts
2 - 10Pts
3 - 7Pts
4 - 5Pts
5 - 2Pts
6 - 1Pts

The Tiers1 decks are not the most powerful decks, but the decks that you are most likely to meet in top8, i.e. decks that win the biggest number of tournaments. It's the conjunction of its power and its popularity. The goal is to know the metagame with this tool, not the best deck ever, since the best deck ever depends on the metagame.

Ps: and it's not MY ranking. It's the ranking used for the legacy championship qualification. Top64 players are qualified to a big tourney each year.

[TheLion]

Ah ok... it is more complex...

Concerning the list itself, this is very strange:

2 CounterSlivers 63 Pts (5 Perf.)
...
18 Multicombo Cannon Vault 17 Pts (1 Perf.)
...
25 Dragon Stompy 8 Pts (1 Perf.)
...
29 Landstill Uwx 5 Pts (2 Perf.)

[Maveric78f]

TheLion: What do you mean? Landstill and DS should be higher although Countersliver and Vault Combo should be lower? Well, according to the small amount of data it's not surprising that some artefacts (not the type, the real word) show. Landstill is probably not as good as people use to think. Even our local landstill-fan good player, does not perform these last tourneys. DS is badin our metagame according to me. It has been good when it was a surprise, but it's weaker and weaker in a metagame with vials, no combo and a lot of control. The Multicombo Cannon Vault, I can't say anything, because I don't know that deck, I just notice that it's just 1 shot. Probably a deck that won a 40+ people tourney. Countersliver is one of the best decks currently in my oppinion. It probably does not deserve its success from popularity (contrarily to Ugr thresh), but from power.

[DireLemming]

I'm sure may here would appreciate the formula no matter how complex. Having a standarised way of comparing metagames would be very nice.

[Frenger]

Being new in France, this is quite helpful. I'll definitely consult this list when preparing to go to larger tournaments.

Maveric, where can I find a version that will be constantly updated? In the thread on legacy-france?

[Maveric78f]

Thelink I gave is constantly updated.

About the formula, there used to be a link where you could test your configuration but I can't find it anymore. It's basically something like this. nbrounds is the number of rounds +0 or +1 whether there is a topX afterwards. nbplayer is the number of players.
U(1) = f1(nbplayers,nbrounds)
gamma = f2(nbplayers,nbrounds)
U(n) = gamma*U(n-1)

The nth of the tourney gains round(U(n)) points. With reverse engineering, you may find f1 and f2 ^^.

[Solknar]

http://cdf.legacy.free.fr/

and then click on the left button:

Simulateur de point CdF

[darkalucard]

Why do you think "Togless Tog" has such a presence in the French Metagame and is completely non-existent in the US?

Do you think it's bad match-ups aren't as present there or just that Americans do not want to play such a deck?

[Eldariel]

Why do you think "Togless Tog" has such a presence in the French Metagame and is completely non-existent in the US?

Do you think it's bad match-ups aren't as present there or just that Americans do not want to play such a deck?

It's called "It's The Fear" around there.

[darkalucard]

No ITF and Togless Tog are completely different decks...

[Maveric78f]

It's quite different from ITF. ITF plays counterbalance, vedalken shackles and splashes W for STP. Togless plays instead more lands, AK, Tombstalker.

[Eldariel]

No ITF and Togless Tog are completely different decks...

My point was that they fill the same metagame niché. It seems like ITF is played in the US and Togless Tog is played in France. I can't imagine why either wouldn't succeed in the other metagame if it were played - it just seems like the control players favour the one over the other depending on geographical location.

[Maëlig]

It does have a few differences to ITF, but it's still a variant of the 'intuition-control' archetype to me. It occupies the same niche as would ITF in America, which would explain its absence here, I guess.

EDIT: Sarnath'd by Eldariel.

[Maveric78f]

Are you twins?

I mean using both the word niche o-O

[Sea R Hill]

Landstill is probably not as good as people use to think. Even our local landstill-fan good player, does not perform these last tourneys.

Are you talkin' about me? Remember I placed 7th out of 109 players at GP Paris Legacy Side event with my UW Landstill.:wink:

Anyway, this French Legacy Cup Deck Ranking is totally junky. It does not say "Deck X is y% of the field", it just says that one or two good players playing deck X placed well y times. They can be the only ones playing this deck, but as they are winning players, the deck is at the top of the ranking.
It's kind of the Togless case: 8 Perf but one player is responsible for like 80% of those perf cause he is a good player and always plays this same deck.

[Maveric78f]

Are you talkin' about me? Remember I placed 7th out of 109 players at GP Paris Legacy Side event with my UW Landstill.:wink:
That's not a performance for you ;-)


Anyway, this French Legacy Cup Deck Ranking is totally junky. It does not say "Deck X is y% of the field", it just says that one or two good players playing deck X placed well y times. They can be the only ones playing this deck, but as they are winning players, the deck is at the top of the ranking.
It's kind of the Togless case: 8 Perf but one player is responsible for like 80% of those perf cause he is a good player and always plays this same deck.

That's the bias of the data. Anyway, I think it's the kind of information we are looking for. It's a bit suicidal to play a deck that folds to Togless in Paris, because that guy does 95% of the tourneys, he top8s 90%. I'm exaggerating, but there is a part of truth in what I say.

[lolosoon]

Err.... Maybe one should merge this thread with the already existing metagame thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11720).

That or merge the posts about the French "metagame" (or French Legacy Cup results) already discussed in the thread (This Post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=289387#post289387) and followers).

Back on topic : the thing is, I'm afraid such a thing like a "French Metagame" doesn't even exist. There is not enough shops around to run regular solid Legacy tourneys (20+ people on a regular basis at least once a month).

Some cities like Paris (with MagicCorp mainly) might have a defined Meta, but beside that, i'm not sure.

I mean : In a quite big city like Lille, who has hosted the GrandPrix Legacy back in 2005, 2 shops runs Legacy FNM and small Legacy tounaments (13-20 players, booster prizes) only since early 2007 (with 1 tourney every 1 or 2 months) !!

Imho Legacy is not enough supported by French shops (and by Wotc in general) to build a good amount of regular Legacy players basis, thus a defined metaGame.

I hope the Bazar of Moxen Eternal Tournaments (with like 200+ players this year) will change that...


ps: Even for American players, I wonder is there such a thing like a US Metagame ?! Syracuse, L.A., Pittsburgh, Hadley must have a local one, but a country-wide one I dunno...