Knights! (WB aggro control)

[Media314r8]

I loved the hell out of Pikula, and I really have a soft spot for card advantage in WB, where no can usually be found. I also like me some Chrome mox, and having the potential to set a bob down turn 1. For my next abortion of a deck, I'd like to reinvent the WB achtype:

// Lands
4 [R] Scrubland
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [PT] Swamp (3)
2 [ST] Plains (4)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Knight of the White Orchid
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 [AP] Spectral Lynx

// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [AP] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 4 [FNM] Silver Knight

Card choices:

Kights:

White orchid gives KNIGHTS the ability play a two drop with mox on turn one, then orchid and another 2 drop turn two, while fixing/accelerating mana, or any number of less broken things, including keeping your guys safe from daze, nabbing another scrub to pump shade with, and better utilizing the shuffle ability with top.

I see more and more decks looking to use/abuse the graveyard, and while they often do not rely on the GY to win, samuri does many things from keeping goyfs smallish to nuetering loam/crucible engines to blocking warchiefs, ect. He generally does more good for the deck than (stromgald crusader/black knight/knight of the holy nimbus/stillmoon cavalier) who are possible replacements should any of my knights not quite pull their weight.

Shade:

He is still the best two drop in black midrange decks short of tombstalker, who has antisynergy with bob and samuri. (both of which I believe add more to the deck than tombstalker, who fits better into sui varients or deck such as eva green which put more cards in the bin) The quick mana and extra pumps via orchid and bob can make him a decent way to finish a game in the abscence of jitte.

Bob:

Turn 1 bob can and does end games. Top helps him do his thing, and while never a super-efficient beatstick, he can get there with jitte or if the board has just been cleaned via retribution.

Lynx:

While not an impressive beater, he blocks goyf, geese, and carries jitte like a champ. I probably don;t want to see him in multiples unless one eats a swords.

Disruption:

4 Hymns, 4 Thoughtseize:

While probably not enough to cut it against combo, it can stave off engines when Samuri isn't around. TS is probably the best thing to do with 1 mana on turn one, and hymn is possibly the second (losing only to bob as the CA from hymn does not scale as it does with bob according to how early it's dropped.)

Removal:

4 Swords, 3 Vindicates (formally 2 retribution of the meek)

Vindicate kills CB, CB kills us, also gets rid of things like chalice @ 2, propoganda effects, ect. It destroys target permanent, what more do you want? Swords is the best removal in the game. Vindi also allows acess to both W and B when imprinted on mox, which is actually relevant in this deck with WW, BB, and BB alla s 4-ofs.

Retribution of the meek is a card in my cube that was recently suggested in a N&D thread. It kills goyfs, dreadnaughts, tombstalkers, drakes, anything holding a sword, crushers, vores, grunts, (well so does samuri... but anyhow) and whatever janky trash may be played against you with power >3. It also doesn't kill any of your own creatures, and plays well with jitte. This seems like the deck to try it in, (or UW fish, another deck on my list -to necro-.) so its a two of for now that can be dug for with bob and top if the oppurtunity to 2for1 creatures for 2W comes up.

SB:

Leyline + MB samuri can get there vs ichorid, as well as putting pressure on loam engines and rock/survival type decks. 8 discard main + 4 chalices side will hopefully get there against ANT. 3 auras are for random stacks MUs as well as against decks playing deed or propaganda effects. Silver knight is kindof an open slot, as I really dont think the deck needs much more help kicking aggro or goblins in the nuts, but it can also carry jitte for an auto-win possibility vs burn, and survives random things like DD, huge crushers, and all the dragon stompy critters save for dragon.

Let me know what you think. I'm unsure that this will ever be Tier 1, but I have high hopes of playing this in a tournament sometime, as I love the hell out of all the CA oozing from this deck.

Post- post: I just realized that the deck only plays 3 kinghts now (+4 Sb) as opposed to the 10MB i started brainstorming with, but I really like the name 'knights!'

[Finn]

Samurai of the Pale Curtain and Volrath's Stronghold = ?

[GreenOne]

Did you consider Spectral Lynx, Mother of runes or Serra Avenger in place of Samurai and Knight? You don't seem to need the extre plains and Samurai doesn't seem disruptive enough. Also rotection from a color, evasion and regeneration are quite good with jitte.
Retribution of the Meek is a great tech, but Radiant's Judgement is probably better: it's unlikely for the opponent to have a couple goyf in play with your other 7 removal spells.

[Media314r8]

avenger is more fit for decks with vial, namely DnT. She does not benefit from fast mana and while she IS a beast with jitte, she does not really fit the aggro feel of the deck. Lynx is pretty swell with jitte and against goyf, and could well go in for samuri, with samuri moving to the SB. Mother is a fine utility creature, but does not play aggro for crap, and would need one of the 12 other creatures in play just to get one of said creatures there. Possibly in a more controling build, but at that point, the deck should just be DnT. I'll test lynx.

Stonghold is only there as a one-of, and the ability to recurr bob/shade in situations where I don't have samuri may warrent it's spot, testing will make clear whether it's worth the spot or if I use it so infrequently that it would be better to have another colored source.

[Wobbles The Goose]

White orchid gives KNIGHTS the ability to turn one mox-> KotWO into turn two jitte+equip or any number of less broken things

Unless your opponent went forest, exploration, forest, this doesn't work. Knight only fetches land if an opponent controls more lands than you, which means it happens turn 2 at the earliest. This makes him solid, but not insane. The double white in the cost could be a problem too, as wasteland seems to really mess up a mana base that wants both WW and BB on turn 2.



I see more and more decks looking to use/abuse the graveyard, and while they often do not rely on the GY to win, samuri does many things from keeping goyfs smallish to nuetering loam/crucible engines to blocking warchiefs, ect.

Well, it definitely blocks warchief. It's important to remember that Samurai only looks at permanents going to the graveyard. That means that while it does stop wasteland/crucible, it doesn't stop Loam and cycling lands. Also, Goyf gets instants, sorceries, probably lands (you have 6 saclands, they have 6+, a land is probably in the graveyard before samurai), and countered or discarded creatures, creatures or enchantments (because if they aren't in play when they die, they aren't permanents). Goyf is almost always going to be a 3/4 and bigger than everything but Shade.

You probably already got that, but I just wanted to make sure

Retribution of the Meek:

Seems like a sideboard card. I mean, it can two for one, but the problem with big creatures is that they likely only need to play one to beat you down with. Consider that it's going to be totally dead not only against control or combo, but even decks like goblins or dragon stompy. Probably a beating against loam aggro though.

The biggest difference between deadguy ale and this is Jitte over Sinkhole. KotWO is awesome with Jitte (Even on turn 3), but it's coming at the expense of wasteland, sink hole and dark ritual. That is a huge trade off.

[Media314r8]

Unless your opponent went forest, exploration, forest, this doesn't work. Knight only fetches land if an opponent controls more lands than you, which means it happens turn 2 at the earliest. This makes him solid, but not insane. The double white in the cost could be a problem too, as wasteland seems to really mess up a mana base that wants both WW and BB on turn 2.



It's important to remember that Samurai only looks at permanents going to the graveyard. That means that while it does stop wasteland/crucible, it doesn't stop Loam and cycling lands.


True story about orchid, I thought it was lands = to lands or > yours. That makes it slightly worse, so no godhand swinging with jitte turn two, still good with chrome mox on turn two-> two 2 drops turn 2.

Samuri does RFG the cycling lands, so they can keep dredging loam all they want, but it won't have many targets.

Meek removed with 1x orchid (bad in multiples) for 3x lynx.

[troopatroop]

I'm not sold on Sensei's Divining top. I don't think this is a good deck for it. You're only playing 17 lands, with 6 Fetchlands as your shuffle effects. I know you play 4 Chrome Mox, but that also makes me think that you shouldn't play Top. If you draw both Top and Chrome Mox, you've effectively given up two cards from your starting seven (The imprint and the Top), Because Top has no immediate impact on the game. That will leave you searching for answers to your opponents stream of threats, and leave you struggling to find them with Top, which doesn't always happen, especially with only 6 shuffle effects. If you don't draw a Mox with it, then the fact that you're only playing 17 lands comes into play, and the mana intensiveness of the card may leave it unusable, as you'll have better things to do with your precious lands.

I see the interaction with Dark Confidant, and I know that you want to make this a card advantage machine, but I don't think that 17 lands is enough to run it, nor do I think the card has a strong enough effect for this build.

[Mordenkaynen]

I think the thing will be about is you argession agressive enough? How do you feel your grizzly bears with evasion and first strike against sea dragon, TS, goyf, R pit dragon etc?
It seems to me that if you want to use such an army, a) Retribution of the Meek and b) Waylay (multiples of bears can't be blocked) can fit the combat-style, but I'd better hear some tests results. Pump also can help.

[Media314r8]

Just remembered that Tidehollow Sculler is a WB bear with a disruptive ability. Possible replacement for Shade, and good to imprint on Chrome mox. The deck actually runs 9 shuffle effects counting the orchids. Seems like more than enough for top. The deck is aggro-control, not pure aggro. Top ensures the threats keep coming, or disruption, or answers, whatever is needed. Retirbution was in my initial list and is discussed in the primer, but is a 1-1 more often than a 2+for 1, so it would be better to add vindicate number 4 before meek, unless I was planning on playing in an envirnment where aggroloam, stiflenaught, and FS were more prevalant.

[Forbiddian]

I've played a similar deck that's pretty effective (solid Tier 2, beats Goblins and Thresh pretty easily). You're definitely on track.

I gotta say, though: This deck looks really unrefined and bathing in anti-synergy. Not just Volrath's + KotPC (inevitable, both are very solid in BW).

1) This deck requires WW and BB on turn 2. You might write it off, but wasteland/pop/blood moon/B2B vulnerability is some serious shit. You get around that with some basics, but your deck really can't afford to dick around with basics. To play out a hand of two drops, it needs FOUR basics.

You're running a two color deck that's more vulnerable to B2B than It's the Fear.

2) Nantuko Shade + Lynx or any of the WW dudes. You don't have enough mana flying around (especially with two plains and volrath's, etc.) to really pump that bad boy. At most he's like a 3/2 for 2, and with Spectral Lynx out as well you might not even be able to swing with him like that.

Even endgame when you have 5 land out, Shade would only get to like 5/4 and still get stomped by Goyf. I'd think of him as a nonfactor.

He also has horrible synergy with Jitte. In all your talk about how Tombstalker is unsynergistic, you didn't mention how Shade is pretty horrible with wanting to do anything else.

3) The random Urborg looks pretty terrible.

4) Your sideboard... yeah, work on that. I guess it's "based on the metagame" but your sideboard seems real weak.



BW has the combination of discard/card advantage and cheap beaters with a second ability to make it to tier 2, maybe even tier 1 in certain metas.


Although the full complement of Swords and Thoughtseize and Hymn would probably serve to keep a lot of enemy doodz off the table, with your creature selection, you don't have anything 4/4 or bigger. If your opponent did happen to get a Goyf out or Sea Drake or whatever else, your deck seems pretty unprepared to race and basically would get walled off. Even Nimble Mongoose is as big as anything in your deck.

Tidehollow Sculler might find room in your deck, although it's very small as well.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Samuri does RFG the cycling lands, so they can keep dredging loam all they want, but it won't have many targets.


Nope. Samurai only RFGs cards that go from play to the graveyard, because cards are only "permanents" if they were in play. Cards that are discarded because of cycling, hymn, or thoughtseize won't get removed from the game, and neither will cards that were dredged.

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/76134-13-quick-question-samurai-pale-curtain

[Mordenkaynen]

Tidehollow Sculler is a WB bear with a disruptive ability. Possible replacement for Shade, and good to imprint on Chrome mox.
Note that Sculler is artifact, so you can't imprint him.

Well, again and again. About threats in BW. How to improve your threat base? I think at least you have to change some samurai to Grunt/Stalker. Choose your stratagy of interaction with graveyard; most likely a good style is TS (+ Jailer if you want MD hate) + extirepate SB (for reanimation and recursion).
Another guy is negator, but he's good with Mother of Runes and worse without. I'm not sure really. Still it's better to say anything after some testing results. Have you done any?

[Media314r8]

1) This deck requires WW and BB on turn 2. You might write it off, but wasteland/pop/blood moon/B2B vulnerability is some serious shit. You get around that with some basics, but your deck really can't afford to dick around with basics. To play out a hand of two drops, it needs FOUR basics.

You're running a two color deck that's more vulnerable to B2B than It's the Fear.

Your first statement is equivilant to saying that Loam needs RRR 1GG on turn two, such is not allways the case, as you do not allways draw and need to play all the BB, UU, or RRR threats at the first posible moment.

Ex: 10/10 I would rather turn 1 Bob than any other threat in the deck. if I fetch a scrub, I may allready be set for 1/2 my threats depending on what I imprinted on mox, bob will likely draw me into another w/b source. (I run 10 w/b + top/bob + 3 w +2 b)

I am not aiming to play shade or orchid on turn 1. Vidi also imprints for W/B. I would argue that 2 basics, swords, vindicate, and chome mox make my deck far less suseptable to ITF, I also can fetch 3 scrubs and not fear wastes (sans crucible) as I never have to worry about being cut off from a splash.


2) Nantuko Shade + Lynx or any of the WW dudes. You don't have enough mana flying around (especially with two plains and volrath's, etc.) to really pump that bad boy. At most he's like a 3/2 for 2, and with Spectral Lynx out as well you might not even be able to swing with him like that.

Even endgame when you have 5 land out, Shade would only get to like 5/4 and still get stomped by Goyf. I'd think of him as a nonfactor.

He also has horrible synergy with Jitte. In all your talk about how Tombstalker is unsynergistic, you didn't mention how Shade is pretty horrible with wanting to do anything else.

Shade is an endgame finisher in a WB deck that aims to cut both players off from the GY. (I realize I play 1 stronghold, but as both I in my primer, and even you mentioned, it is too powerful to pass on as a 1-of) It is not meant to be pumped turn three after dropping it. It is a mana sink and with 5 lands out, it is likely I will be vindicating/swords'ing said goyf, swinging 2-4, and swinging for 5-7 with shade the following turn. Again, as mentioned in the primer, he is not ideal, but he is still one of the best 2 drops availible in WB.

Comparing shade's dis-synergy with jitte to tombstalker's dis-synergy with SotPC is like comparing the downside of jotun grunt's upkeep with the downside of jotus owl keeper's upkeep. Not even in the same ballpark. I believe I have made it clear in the primer that the deck doesn't want to be a poor man's eva green, that it aims to even the field with GY hate both main and side, and win via card advantage and a decent MU against the majority of the field. (like a rock deck with smaller guys and no GY reliance)


3) The random Urborg looks pretty terrible.

Shade. Read your own rant on "shade wants black mana" Urborg is no worse than a basic swamp so long as it's a one-of, and in best case, it can turn basic plains/flagstones into B mana for hymn+ shade, or lots of shade pumping. I'm considering -1 stronghold, +1 urborg, but I'm still in early testing.


4) Your sideboard... yeah, work on that. I guess it's "based on the metagame" but your sideboard seems real weak.

Please read my primer and look at the DTB/DTW/ATW section before commenting on sideboards. Chalice is pretty much a necessity to beat ANT, not 4 or even 8 discard main is going to make the MU favoriable, you need chalice, force, or a combination of the two and discard.

Leyline hurts so many tier 1 decks it's unreal, have you ever played against an ichorid/loam deck with a leyline AND disruptive four of in your deck? Not to mention beating the odd reanimator, rock, demigod, ect rogue decks. Keeping 80% of thresh's creatures small seems ok as well.



Well, again and again. About threats in BW. How to improve your threat base? I think at least you have to change some samurai to Grunt/Stalker. Choose your stratagy of interaction with graveyard; most likely a good style is TS (+ Jailer if you want MD hate) + extirepate SB (for reanimation and recursion).
Another guy is negator, but he's good with Mother of Runes and worse without. I'm not sure really. Still it's better to say anything after some testing results. Have you done any?

Grunt may be a better call than Samuri with retribution of the meek now out of the deck. I'll have to test. I have done some testing, and have performed well against goblins and some terrible loam decks, losing to a ANT deck and then having the player leave before game 2. Typical MWS, and the internet/legacy metagame in Iraq is unreliable/non-existant.