[Deck] Togless Tog (Intuition Control)

[darkalucard]

Togless Tog

Intro:

Why does this deck deserve to be here?
First of all this deck is here in Established Decks because it has proven itself with Ten Top 8’s since April 08. Three of those Top 8’s were last month, one shy of being a deck to watch. Although this deck so far has only been specifically played by French players being a DTB in their country, I believe it has potential in America.

Why are you writing this?
Because it’s sad when a deck is almost a DTW and we don’t even have a thread on it. Also I believe this deck is very good and I’ve been playing a list inspired by this deck for a while now and have been getting very good results.

How was this deck created?
Essentially a Psychatog deck. Pierre Sommen created this version of Psychatog after the printing of Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. Tarmogoyf sped up the format and was an obvious inclusion in the deck while Tombstalker replaces Psychatog. Hence the name “Togless Tog” His personal list has pretty much finished testing and has been well defined since June 2008.

History and Results:

Placed 6/32 April 19th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15339 by Pierre Sommen
Placed 1/42 May 10th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15954 by Pierre Sommen
Placed 2/40 June 1st 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16759 by Pierre Sommen
Placed 7/49 June 6th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17587 by Thomas Epelbaum
Placed 1/27 June 15th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17614 by Pierre Sommen
Placed 1/48 August 9th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18786 by Pierre Sommen
Placed 6/44 October 12th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20249 by Jean-Michel Peirani
Placed 6/109 October 19th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20383 by Cyril Mahe
Placed 2/39 October 26th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20579 by Pierre Sommen
Placed 3/45 November 9th 08 / http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20912 by Cyril Mahe

Decklist:

Base List: Pierre Sommen Maindeck Spells:

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

My Recommended Changes (With 23 Land most likely cutting Factories)

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
1-2 (Your Choice Intuition Targets)

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives

Pierre Sommen Manabase: 26x Land

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Lonely Sandbar

Thomas Epelbaum Manabase: 25x Land

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Lonely Sandbar

My Recommended Manabase: 23x Land

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Lonely Sandbar

Sideboard:

5 Hydroblast / Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Smother
1 Darkblast
1 Raven's Crime

Card Explanations:

Disruption:

4 Force of Will
Obvious inclusion in any blue deck. BTW This deck runs 22 blue cards which is fine although there shouldn’t be a problem cutting it down to 20. During sideboarding make sure you don’t have less than 16-17 blue cards in your deck or you will have problems casting Force of Will.
3-4 Spell Snare
Makes up for the lack of Daze. Stops turn two plays when you have had only one land drop. Very good against allot of the top cards in today’s metagame. This slot in the past used to be Stifle.
3-4 Counterspell
Obvious inclusion in any control deck.

Card Draw:

4 Brainstorm
No explanation needed.
4 Accumulated Knowledge
Most efficient card advantage in that you can pay for the draw effect in increments of two mana and can use it as early as turn two EOT when your opponent doesn’t play a Counterspell. Much easier cast and see results with than Fact or Fiction or Cunning Wish. This also enables Intuition to turn into a Fact or Fiction like card by getting 3x AK’s, in the right situation this could be the best play especially if for whatever reason you do not have green mana to cast Life from the Loam.
3-4 Intuition
Most flexible and powerful card engine in the game. There is no better engine than a Loam engine and it’s very powerful against allot of decks. Also it’s because of how flexible this card is, it’s practically an Instant tutor for three mana and can be used to get a beater or removal in the right situation.
1 Life from the Loam
Enables you to return land to use the abilities of Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, and Wasteland.

Threats:

4 Tarmogoyf
Best creature in the format. Even control decks need a clock and this is so much better than cards like Morphling since it can come down early against combo and late game you can pay two mana and still have mana open to play cards like Counterspell.
2-3 Tombstalker
In order for Psychatog to be good here we would need allot more support cards like Fact or Fiction and Cunning Wish. This deck already has a good enough late game and doesn’t need conditional expensive clunky cards that you can only cast when your already winning. Psychatog also cannot stand up to today’s creature very well since Wizards keeps printing better creatures with each new set. You would have to remove way to many cards to kill a Tarmogoyf. Tombstalker is allot faster than Psychatog and doesn’t need all the support for it. Tombstalker is more synergistic with the deck being immune to your Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deeds. He is also very good in the format with the popularity of Engineered Explosives, Snuff Out, and Counterbalance. Also he is one of the only creatures than can compete with Tarmogoyf since he can actually shrink Tarmogoyf if needed and/or fly over it.

Removal:

3-4 Pernicious Deed
Best and most flexible removal card in the game. This card definitely secures your late game. It’s also one of the strengths of playing these colors.

1-3 Engineered Explosives
Essentially a mini-deed. This is played as a 1 of to recur with Academy Ruins.

Land: 21-26

Pierre Sommen; 26x Land Mana Base

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Island
2 Lonely Sandbar
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland

Other than because it’s a control deck the reason why this deck runs so many lands is because it plays so many colorless lands and it needs such a high blue count. I would also say that the 2x Lonely Sandbar doesn’t count as land as you will never use it for mana and will always cycle it. So that leaves 18x Blue Fetches/Lands 6x Colorless and 2x Lonely Sandbar. In any deck the mathematical correct amount to run of a card to consistently have one in your hand is 16. So we can cut 2x Blue Lands if we think the trade off is worth it. Other pilots of this deck have chosen to cut Blue-Sources and Mishra's Factory’s to fit in either more spells or 1x Bayou and/or 1x Swamp.

My Recommended Mana Base: 21-23

(20 Lands)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Lonely Sandbar

(Then Add 1-6 of These Lands with Extra Slots Being Spells)
+1 Swamp
+1 Bayou
+2-3 Mishra's Factory
+1 Lonely Sandbar
+2 Wasteland

Cards that can be Added if More Room is Made:

Thoughtseize
If you were to play Spell Snare and Thoughtseize and you have both in your hand on the play. A turn one Thoughtseize would be incorrect because it would be better to keep mana open and then counter their two drop and then play the discard next turn. If that even because you might need mana open for Counterspell. Most of the time when you play it, it will be for the sole purpose of making sure your opponent doesn’t counter a Deed/Intuition or to take Removal for your creature. The best reason to play this card would probably be for against combo. If room was made by cutting lands or non-blue cards you would have to decide if you would be playing too much disruption and would a threat or removal be a better choice.

Stifle
Besides fetchlands cards that cause problems for you that Stifle is good against would probably be Eternal Witness and well Goblins. I would say combo but it’s usefulness seems to have diminished with the printing of Ad Nauseam. As for the fetchlands you can use it as a form of land destruction tempo in which case it would probably be best to run wastelands also. More importantly it would be used to protect your mana-base against opposing wastelands since that is one of this decks weaknesses. The reason why this was cut was because Spell Snare > Stifle.

Smother, Diabolic Edict, Snuff Out or More EE's:
Instead of having these in the sideboard there could be room made for the maindeck. I think this could improve a few match ups by giving this deck a better early game.

Intuition Targets:

Stinkweed Imp (Recurring removal.)
Vedalken Shackles (Completely dominates late games.)
Raven’s Crime (Very powerful effect.)
Eternal Witness? (Not worth a slot?)
Darkblast? (Too weak?)

Cards that Cannot be in the Deck:

Counterbalance/Top
This is a personal choice of me and the decks creators. This deck will never play Counterbalance and please don't endlessly argue for it's inclusion. This is a deck for people who agree that it is better not to play Counterbalance. As for the reasons why it's not included... 1. It slows the deck down. 2. Anti-synergy with Pernicious Deed. 3. Bad in Multiples 4. Dead Card without Top 5. Bad Top-deck vs. Attacking creatures 6. Personal Choice. And I would have to say removing CB / Top and adding 2-3 Tombstalkers vastly speeds this deck up.

Cunning Wish
There is only so much room for cards that don't immediately have an effect on the game. The only way to make room for Cunning Wish would be to cut Intuition (since they play a similar role) which this deck cannot do. Also Cunning Wish murders your Sideboard and is really slow. In needing to make this deck less clunky, more straight forward and have a better early game, there is no place for this card in the deck.

Fact or Fiction
For allot of the same reasons to not to play Cunning Wish. We already have AK’s and Intuition. Our late-game is already better than our opponents thanks to the Loam Engine. In the long run a card like this that is only usually cast able when you winning and just ensures the win will not win you as many games as you will lose by having this be a dead card in your hand against a fast deck where you can’t afford to time walk yourself.

Psychatog
Out dated and slow. (See the Card Explanation for Tombstalker)

Matchup Analysis:

This is the type of deck that like Landstill can beat any deck in the format. Mostly this decks weakness is against really fast Aggro, Burn, and Land Destruction.

Bad Match-Ups:
Goblins

Tough Match-Ups:
Aggro-Loam
Dragon Stompy
Eva Green
Goyf Sligh
Burn

Good Match-Ups:
Just About Everything else.

(More in depth Matchup Analysis in will be posted here in the future…)

Additional Reading:

Original Togless Tog Thread in French: http://www.legacy-france.com/Togless-t1731.html
Translator: http://translate.google.com/ or http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

Discuss!

[darkalucard]

(This Post May be used for future expansion of the Primer.)

[Jak]

Why is this better than ITF? <---- Serious question

[Swing4Five]

Pretty similar to the Intution Thresh list that's being disscussed a few threads down with a few engine differences, and I've never liked AK.

[Obfuscate Freely]

For the life of me, I cannot understand how somebody can think that Fact or Fiction is too slow, and simultaneously think that Intuition is any good at all.

Also, just like the proponents of every other non-Landstill blue-based control deck, you need to address the absence of Standstill. You even have Factories in the deck, already, so swapping out the godawful Accumulated Knowledge for a card that will always draw three cards for the same mana cost seems obvious to me.

[darkalucard]

Togless Tog VS. ITF

IMO ITF has the following Weaknesses:

Vulnerable win conditions.
Four Color Mana-Base.
Slow clock via only 4x Threats.
Slow via playing Counterbalance/Top


Advantages to play this deck over ITF

Tombstalker is absolutely insane.
Recuring Wasteland and Raven's Crime crushes so many decks.
Faster clock and better win conditions.
More stable mana-base via playing only three colors.


Ultimately why would you play it over ITF?

For people who don't think counterbalance is that great and would rather play a faster control deck with better win conditions. Also if the two decks played against each other Togless Tog would win because it doesn't care about Counterbalance and it has the Wasteland/Raven's Crime lock for control mirrors.

[Nydaeli]

Eternal Witness seems like it should be an autoinclude. Being able to Intuition for Witness + Volrath's + anything-in-your-deck makes Intuition MUCH better.

Also, Academy Ruins looks really weak here with one artifact in the maindeck, and three more in the sideboard. Sure, recurring EE is great, but it's still pretty limited. I'd at least add Shackles as a one-of.

[Swing4Five]

Eternal Witness seems like it should be an autoinclude. Being able to Intuition for Witness + Volrath's + anything-in-your-deck makes Intuition MUCH better.

Using Intuition for that pile gets you the card in what? 3 turns at best? On a 3cc spell?

Only time that could possibly be relevant is during the control mirror, and there still would be a better pile.


Also, Academy Ruins looks really weak here with one artifact in the maindeck...

This is actually on base. Cute little synergies and Intuition piles are just that, cute. Without larger interaction with the rest of the deck this is pretty useless.

The deck seems to just be a mashup of ITF and Intuition Threshold; it seems slightly confused about it's gameplan as a result.

[darkalucard]

Why is Intuition so good?

Can be 5 Mana draw 3-4 cards.
Can Tutor for 2U.
Late game Loam trumps any other form of card advantage.
Cost less than Fact or Fiction.


Accumulated Knowledge VS. Fact or Fiction

Fact or Fiction; as long as your opponent makes good piles you will usually only get 1-2 cards although they will probably be the best of the five. On average we will say that Fact or Fiction = Draw Three Cards

Accumulated Knowledge; if you cast 2x AK's it's 1U+1U=Draw Three Cards. Intuition for 3x AK and Cast AK is 5 Mana = Draw Three Cards.
The advantage over Fact or Fiction?

Easier to cast b/c it cost 2 mana.
Will not be a dead card in an early game where you cannot afford to play 4 mana all at once.


And so I would not play Fact or Fiction because AK gives the same effect but at an easier cost. And there is not enough room for it in the deck.

Why doesn't Togless Tog play Standstill?

In order to support Standstill you must run at minimum 3x Wasteland and 3x Factory. Most lists of Togless Tog run only 1x Wasteland and 2x Factory. In order to add these 3x lands you must cut something and most likely it would be Intuition targets. Basically it comes down to Intuition vs. Standstill. In which case Intuition is allot more flexible card and it's card advantage is supior to Standstill. In match-ups against decks that run Standstill this deck doesn't care about them chaining Standstills as long as it resolves an Intuition. Because if it does Loam will rip that Standstill deck to pieces. I personal have played landstill allot and since play a deck like this have never lost to a standstill before and have never found Intuiton to be a dead card like Standstill can be.

[frogboy]

Can be 5 Mana draw 3-4 cards.
Cost less than Fact or Fiction

I'm a fan of Intuition, but, I mean.

Incidentally, AK for one instantly trips the 'this guy has no clue' radar.

[Swing4Five]

AK sucks and FoF is way too slow.

Obfuscate Freely was not saying FoF was good and Intuition isn't, he was saying he doesn't understand how you could axe one while championing the other, as they both run about the speed of a midget in a marathon.

[Jak]

ITF plays a much more stable mana base than you, even with 4 colors. You run 4 more colorless lands, 2 lands that come into play tapped, and less basics. I'll take ITF's mana base.

How do you call Counter/Top slow, and then say that Intuition-->AKs isn't? Or going for a Waste, Loam, Sandbar pile? Your whole decks just seems less streamlined.

Also, Counterbalance is so amazing in ITF.

[darkalucard]

The deck seems to just be a mashup of ITF and Intuition Threshold; it seems slightly confused about it's gameplan as a result.
Psychatog was around way before ITF and Intuition Threshold. I doubt any of the French players have ever seen Intuition Threshold and the decks are vastly different. All this deck is, is a viable form of actually playing a Psychatog deck. Obviouslly with the printing of Goyf and Stalker it was cut but all the core pieces are here. To say this is like ITF is rediculious. ITF was based on Psychatog... This deck is more like the updated father of ITF not a basterdized son...


Also, Academy Ruins looks really weak here with one artifact in the maindeck, and three more in the sideboard. Sure, recurring EE is great, but it's still pretty limited. I'd at least add Shackles as a one-of.

In my own version I run 3x EE and 1x Shackles. Even though I think EE is powerful enough to warrant running Ruins on it's own. It single handedly takes down almost every threat in the game including Counterbalance.



Originally Posted by Nydaeli
Eternal Witness seems like it should be an autoinclude. Being able to Intuition for Witness + Volrath's + anything-in-your-deck makes Intuition MUCH better.
Using Intuition for that pile gets you the card in what? 3 turns at best? On a 3cc spell?

Originally Posted by Swing4Five
Only time that could possibly be relevant is during the control mirror, and there still would be a better pile.


You're correct. Eternal Witness is insanely slow and would only be affordable to do against control where there are better options. My favorite would be Loam/Wasteland/Ravens Crime.

[darkalucard]

I'm a fan of Intuition, but, I mean.

Incidentally, AK for one instantly trips the 'this guy has no clue' radar.

On turn two while holding mana open for a counterspell and my opponent does not play something that I want to counter than at the EOT I do nothing. AK takes advantage of the many times like these where you have a few mana left open. So what it draws 1 card the first time. 100% of the time it will be cast with mana that would other wise go unused.


Obfuscate Freely was not saying FoF was good and Intuition isn't, he was saying he doesn't understand how you could axe one while championing the other, as they both run about the speed of a midget in a marathon.

Even so one of my points is that cards like these that are so slow they should not take up too many slots in the deck. And so while I'm comfortable with 3x Slow cards I am not comfortable with 5x Slow Cards. And I would say Intuition > Fact or Fiction in this deck.


How do you call Counter/Top slow, and then say that Intuition-->AKs isn't? Or going for a Waste, Loam, Sandbar pile? Your whole decks just seems less streamlined.

Also, Counterbalance is so amazing in ITF.

Counter/Top is always slow or at least tedious and has no immediate impact on the game. Obviouslly Intuitioning for slow piles is extremely slow but the beauty of it is that it is optional. Intuition can do anything and be anything you want.

Also this is not ITF and this deck does not play Counterbalance and never will.

And BTW this is not my deck. I am representing the French players that created and play this deck the best I can. While I play a simular list, I do not play this deck.


ITF plays a much more stable mana base than you, even with 4 colors. You run 4 more colorless lands, 2 lands that come into play tapped, and less basics. I'll take ITF's mana base.

Obvioussly you haven't read the primer.

Here is another Togless Tog players ManaBase:

1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Lonely Sandbar
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland

That would be 16x Blue Lands not Counting Lonely Sandbar. And I would not count Lonely Sandbar as a land because 99.9% of the time it is cycled. It reads U: Draw 1 card. This mana-base runs the same amount of basics as ITF. And I would have to say it's pretty easy to cut ITF off of playing Pernicious Deed.

[frogboy]

On turn two while holding mana open for a counterspell and my opponent does not play something that I want to counter than at the EOT I do nothing. AK takes advantage of the many times like these where you have a few mana left open. So what it draws 1 card the first time. 100% of the time it will be cast with mana that would other wise go unused.

It's particularly hilarious when someone cycles AK for one into Intuition.

The reason you are playing Counterspell on turn two is so that the board stays the same while you continue to make land drops. In that context, efficient use of your mana is not particularly relevant.

I'm not sure why you went ahead and cut three lands and added an Intuition engine that costs about a million mana. The 23 land Tog builds never really needed to get past four because they had Drain and the Berserk kill. You probably need more.

I'm unconvinced that Counterbalance-Loam control decks are good matchups for this, but I could see it going either way.

[chokin]

I don't understand why you don't run CB+Top when you have a bad burn match. Top is good. CB is good. Together, they're awesome. You run enough 1cc-2cc spells to make sure that burn is going to have problems even off of blind CB reveals. CB+Top allows you to win many games you would not have been able to have won before and allows you to win just because it's that freakin good. And if you don't need it, it's great FoW fodder.

I really don't like Intuition into 3AK...3UU for a total of 4 cards in the yard and a maximum of 4 cards drawn with no gain in hand size. 5 mana to basically cycle 6 cards is very meh.

[frogboy]

I really don't like Intuition into 3AK...3UU for a total of 4 cards in the yard and a maximum of 4 cards drawn with no gain in hand size.

AK for three puts you up two.

[darkalucard]

I don't understand why you don't run CB+Top when you have a bad burn match. Top is good. CB is good. Together, they're awesome. You run enough 1cc-2cc spells to make sure that burn is going to have problems even off of blind CB reveals. CB+Top allows you to win many games you would not have been able to have won before and allows you to win just because it's that freakin good. And if you don't need it, it's great FoW fodder.

The only bad match-ups CB/Top would help against is Burn and Goyf Sligh. Now Goyf Sligh can be beat as long as you know exactly how to play against it and don't make any mistakes. While Burn... who plays Burn? I a competitive tournament I don't think I will end up running into the deck. And it's not like I can't win. As long as I get an early beater or two and back it up with enough counterspells and Hydroblasts I can win.

As for Counterbalance while it may help in a few match-ups in the long run against all the decks I think it would make the deck worse.

BTW I asked some French players this:

Why is "Togless Tog" > "It's the Fear" (ITF)?


Less disynergies.

Less colors (and no GG spells), therefore less colordeaths

Counterbalance lock, oracle, witness and vedalken shackles are good for late game advantage. Late game advantage in togless is produced by card advantage with AK and Loam engine. Togless Materials for late game advantage are better in the early game.

Early game in ITF is only managed by 4 stp + 6counterspells. In Togless it's 11 counterspells, which means more versatility because all threatens are not creatures.

You play the biggest creatures in the format except the dreadnought. Therefore you don't need stp to handle most creatures. You handle creatures with deed, EE and tarmo/stalker by making card advantage (creatures functioning as the abyss against aggro). STP seems far less good being offcolor and not producing any card advantage

Faster kills matter in competitive play

Edit: I'll let Maveric post his own post lol.

[Maveric78f]

The main weaknesses of ITF compared to Togless are the following ones:
- the weaker mana base (4-color, you wan U/W turn 1, 1G/UU turn 2, 1GG/ 2U/1GB turn 3, WGBU turn 4, ...)
- the lack of kills
- the lack of heavy CA. About AK that is contested by a lot of people. It can be only a draw 3/4 for 3UU which is clearly weak but it can also be draw 7 for 4UUU, which is absolutely strong. And the EOT turn "cycling" of AK fits very well to the deck that loves to keep UU open during all the opponent's turn.
- dyssynergy between the board sweepers and the permanents the deck plays: tarmo/counterbalance/shackles in ITF against Tarmogoyf in Togless.
- the name of the deck looks like a teenager movie's name

The burn MU is positive with togless, with 6 REBs in SB in addition to 4 CS, 4 FoW, 3 spell snare and 6/7 huge kills + some mishras. Real story: Pierrer Sommen lost a game against Zoo Sligh, by decking itself (his stronghold was needled, he sbed out all his board sweepers and he controled the game but his CA and a tarmogoyf in play that could not attack because he was at 1 life). The opponent did some mistakes for sure, but it's a proof that 17 counterspells + 6/7 kills + CA cards wins against red decks (with no vial nor chalice).

Edit: ok, I did the copy/paste myself ^^

[darkalucard]

The burn MU is positive with togless, with 6 REBs in SB in addition to 4 CS, 4 FoW, 3 spell snare and 6/7 huge kills + some mishras.

I never tested against pure burn and must have gotten the wrong impression from the French primer. Anyways I trust Maveric78f on this one.

[Maveric78f]

Another factor against burn, is the fact that their pilots are usually bad players.

[frogboy]

Another factor against burn, is the fact that their pilots are usually bad players.

This is sort of a dangerous route to take considering that they mostly have to be able to count to twenty.

[Citrus-God]

Accumulated Knowledge VS. Fact or Fiction

Fact or Fiction; as long as your opponent makes good piles you will usually only get 1-2 cards although they will probably be the best of the five. On average we will say that Fact or Fiction = Draw Three Cards


This is by the the most flawed way people view Fact or Fiction. Either way the opponent divides the piles up, they're going to fuck up unless you truly had a pile full of dead cards, which is rare unless you're up against combo. If you get the two best cards out of that pile of five cards revealed, you should realize that the immense card quality has given you leverage to end the game right there. If the opponent divides the pile of Best card vs. Best card, then you've got both card quality and card advantage. And if it's a 4-1, then you have just either won the game or survived it.

Also, FoF isn't slow and clunky, because it's an Instant. It can be played at your own leisure when needed be. This applies to Intuition as well, but you must dedicate slots to the engine. Which brings me to the irony of your statement that FoF is slow and clunky; Life from the Loam is also quite clunky. You have to dredge every two turns, cast an average of 3-4 mana per turn, just to see 1-2 new cards and make a land drop. But the problem is resolving Intuition. If the opponent knows your draw engine reliant on Intuition, they will just counter Intuitions to make you fall behind. This is why Dredge-A-Tog lost to Ruel Tog frequently in old Extended. The best way to support an Intuition/AK engine is by playing another engine independent from Intuition, like Drain Tendrils in T1 which runs only 2 Intuitions, 4 AKs, and 4 TfKs as the other alternative engine. So to fix this problem and still run your Intuition-AK-LftL engine, I either recommend you cut the LftL or you throw cards in specifically designed to protect your engine. Running Maindeck Thoughtseize is a start, since you claim FoF to be too awful and clunky to even be considered an alternative draw spell.

[Benie Bederios]

I would also say that the 2x Lonely Sandbar doesn’t count as land as you will never use it for mana and will always cycle it.

If you never use them for mana you are a bad player.

On top of that, are you guys discussing that Fact or Fiction is bad? Surely that is wrong.

How is AK good in the early game? It is a 2-mana cantrip. I rather play a turn 2 Counterbalance in a deck with a deck with a good curve than play a turn 2 cantrip.

On top of that for Loam to actually draw a card you need 2 cycling lands so that would be 1GUU, hmm for that mana you could steal a x/4 creature with Shackles. Also Eternal Witness is quite good against aggro: Turn 2 StP, turn 3 Witness> StP, trade with a creature, turn 4 StP and you are already in the midgame.

I'm not saying Togless is bad or strictly worse than ITF, but I don't think Togless has a much better early game than ITF.

The real power of this deck would be is that it can aggro better. But the list you presented can't really do that.

BB

[la loutre]

How is AK good in the early game? It is a 2-mana cantrip. I rather play a turn 2 Counterbalance in a deck with a deck with a good curve than play a turn 2 cantrip.



I think you can't say that because it's stricly different.

1) do you REALLY play balance turn 2 Oo ? it means you always have back up preveting from daze/spell snare?
2) AK isn't a cantrip turn 2,turn 2 you keep mana open for CS,or spell snare,AK is only a cantrip at EOT of course.

then to tell you the truth I think there is no sense to run a one card lock plan (counterbalance) + pernicious deed....when you are able to let your opponent play some treat then raise the board with deed,and keep so much back up (intuition/AK/loam/tarmo/stalker) FTW.

I didnt test a lot ITF because it's a "walking on the head"deck (french expression sorry^^) played deed as a "save your ass card"


dyssynergy between the board sweepers and the permanents the deck plays: tarmo/counterbalance/shackles in ITF against Tarmogoyf in Togless

this is what I mean.


the name of the deck looks like a teenager movie's name

just love this.

[darkalucard]

@Citrus-God
Sure Fact or Fiction is good but what I'm saying is that it's role is already filled in this deck and there is no more room for cards that don't have an immediate impact on the game. We don't need an alternate draw spell. We already have a better draw engine and late game that almost every deck played. The only decks that have a competing late game are Landstill decks. And believe it or not Togless is already the favorite in that match up. If there where allot of control mirrors in Legacy then maybe the deck would have to be redesigned for that. But that fact is everybody plays aggro control. This decks problem is not that it lacks a back up draw engine or loses control mirrors. It's problem is against Goblins, and decks with allot of land destruction.

Life from the Loam usually is only dredged once to get the land you Intuition for. Or if you draw it and are mana screwed I might play it once to get a few lands. The only time I dredge it frequently is when I have a lonely sandbar. Even then it costs 1G but you hit a land drop you wouldn't normally so it's like it only cost G. And I don't cycle the land to get it back untill EOT if I have mana open. Also even with the cycler I usually only would dredge every other turn.

As for Thoughtseize have a point but I see absolutely no room for it.

@Benie Bederios


If you never use them for mana you are a bad player.
Usually drawn Lonely Sandbars are excess land and cycling and drawing for the turn would draw a land anyways. If it was absolutely needed I would play it for mana.


On top of that, are you guys discussing that Fact or Fiction is bad? Surely that is wrong.
Sure Fact or Fiction is good but what I'm saying is that it's role is already filled in this deck and there is no more room for cards that don't have an immediate impact on the game.


How is AK good in the early game? It is a 2-mana cantrip. I rather play a turn 2 Counterbalance in a deck with a deck with a good curve than play a turn 2 cantrip.
The playstyle of the deck would usually never play non-instants untill turn 4+. The goal on T2 is not playing AK, but almost all T2's would go, land go. And if your opponent does simular then you AK EOT. You can not Counterbalance EOT and I think we have given enough reasons why Counterbalance should not be in this deck. My main point was that you will find more opportunities to AK EOT then you will to FoF EOT.


On top of that for Loam to actually draw a card you need 2 cycling lands so that would be 1GUU, hmm for that mana you could steal a x/4 creature with Shackles. Also Eternal Witness is quite good against aggro: Turn 2 StP, turn 3 Witness> StP, trade with a creature, turn 4 StP and you are already in the midgame.
Togless Tog does not play white and never will. That is one of it's strengths. If I was to play Witness for that purpose I would not maindeck just one. But anyways I think the advantages of Witness are outweighed by the dis-advantages. In the long run using that slot for something else would be better. Also using Loam as a draw engine via cycling lands I agree it really bad 90% of the time. But you would never Intuition for it in this deck. Maybe your mis-interpreting how this deck is played. All these bad plays are only bad if thats a main strategy of the deck but its not. I fact is they are all options and the "bad" parts of loaming are rarely used. It's all about Intuitions power of flexibility.


I'm not saying Togless is bad or strictly worse than ITF, but I don't think Togless has a much better early game than ITF.
The Spell Snares make up for the lack of STP and most Sideboards run 3x Smothers to put in which would actually make this deck have a better early game. If you face allot of decks where the Smothers are needed you could actually main deck them somehow too. Also this decks mid-game is allot better because it also has Tombstalker and can more consistently play Pernicious Deed to even better card advantage without having to even bother with CB/Top.


The real power of this deck would be is that it can aggro better. But the list you presented can't really do that.
I fail to see how it can't aggro better than ITF or other control decks like Landstill. We don't have Counterbalance and Standstill slowing us down and have more actual threats by playing Tombstalker. Which can come down T4 if needed and is allot faster than all other alternatives.

@la loutre

Thanks I totally agree. But apparently I'm the only American who does so far.

[sakimmd]

The main weaknesses of ITF compared to Togless are the following ones:
- the weaker mana base (4-color, you wan U/W turn 1, 1G/UU turn 2, 1GG/ 2U/1GB turn 3, WGBU turn 4, ...)
- the lack of kills
- the lack of heavy CA. About AK that is contested by a lot of people. It can be only a draw 3/4 for 3UU which is clearly weak but it can also be draw 7 for 4UUU, which is absolutely strong. And the EOT turn "cycling" of AK fits very well to the deck that loves to keep UU open during all the opponent's turn.
- dyssynergy between the board sweepers and the permanents the deck plays: tarmo/counterbalance/shackles in ITF against Tarmogoyf in Togless.
- the name of the deck looks like a teenager movie's name


I aggree, except for the last point cause i think "togless" sucks too:rolleyes:
Unfortunately i didn't find a more appropriate name.

However I don't think togless is better than ITF wherever you play, but at least in France. Indeed the combo deck are less played there so counterbalance is not necessary. But "to you" it clears itself.


This is sort of a dangerous route to take considering that they mostly have to be able to count to twenty.

I know you was kidding but i would like insist on the fact i won a lot of game versus burn only thanks to its unskilled owner. And i'm pretty sure they was able to count to twenty :wink: . Actually they (my past opponent) don't care of my deck while togless runs counterspell... As a consequence they cry when i counter their price of progress or the fireblast which would have been FTW! But in the end i still think burn isn't a good MU for Togless, at least if it's well played. Thanks god good players don't play burn!
As a matter of interest: i won my 4 last game versus burn with one pv^^ All these game should have been won by my opponent...

""I would also say that the 2x Lonely Sandbar doesn’t count as land as you will never use it for mana and will always cycle it."

resp: If you never use them for mana you are a bad player."

Clear... People play too often their card like robots! of course there is some "rules" but don't forget to think a sec before making a decision.


A last thing, i acknowledge academy ruins could be considered as random in my list but i won so many game with "recuring EE"! Moreover it allows to get out of hard situation with needle on deed. So i keep it^^


darkalucard: Happy you appreciate this deck and I hope you'll crush you're opponent in your next tournament :wink:

Edit: I forgot to say...I'm pierre sommen.

[Frenger]

I think really it's a metagame thing. When I showed up in france playing a US meta tuned counterbalance deck, it didn't phase many decks that are common here in france. It's great against aggro loam, but thats about the only common deck that is really hurt by it.

Also, last night at FNM, 6 out of 8 players were playing wasteland, and the 7th player should have been playing it. I, the fetchland tendrils player, was the only one who wasn't, and shouldn't have been playing waste. This makes the stronger manabase of togless much more relevant that in the US meta, where wasteland is far less omnipresent.

Regarding intuition vs FoF:

Intuition:
1. Draws cards a little less efficiently than FoF
2. Tutors for loam and ruins and stronghold toolboxes among other things.

FoF:
1. Draws cards

I really don't get why there is a debate. Of course FoF is more efficient that AK/intuition. It's one of the most efficient draw spells ever printed. However, Intuition can be used to get massive card advantage for a bit more mana that FoF OR it can be used to set up a loam engine, OR it can be used to set up a recurring EE, OR it can be your 'oh shit' button vs combo and get 3 FoW, etc etc.

Intuition fills multiple roles, and is still damn good at drawing cards, hence why it is run over FoF.

ps. Good to see you on the source sakimmd. :)

[sakimmd]

I think really it's a metagame thing. When I showed
Intuition fills multiple roles, and is still damn good at drawing cards, hence why it is run over FoF.

yep, the debate seemed rather to be between AK and FoF. In my opinion the FoF's cc is just too heavy. I tested 2 FoF and 2 smother during a moment instead of 4 AK but often i lost some game with fact in hand or smother which had been useless. That's why I prefer to favour MD cards which are always useful to the detriment of cards which could be "dead card" (mean useless...).



ps. Good to see you on the source sakimmd. :)

thks. And noc, 3 posts on the source!

[Swing4Five]

People, people, no one was ever advocating putting FoF in this deck.... it was a showcase of the similaries of FoF to Intuition->AK, and the fact they are both really slow; it was an argument agianst the AK draw engine, not for FoF.

Personally if I was inclined to play this deck I'd end up adding more artifacts to make a Thirst engine work, but that would end up being a very different deck.

[Frenger]

People, people, no one was ever advocating putting FoF in this deck.... it was a showcase of the similaries of FoF to Intuition->AK, and the fact they are both really slow; it was an argument agianst the AK draw engine, not for FoF.


Except making that argument implies that putting FoF in the deck would make it better than with intuition, which is clearly not true.

[Citrus-God]

@Citrus-God

As for Thoughtseize have a point but I see absolutely no room for it.



Yes there is. For one, you can start by cutting the Tombstalker count to 2. Two, you can cut some blue cards because Thoughtseize will not only protect your Goyfs and Tombstalkers, but it will spare you a huge amount of trouble by taking out trouble cards, such as Counterbalance, opposing Goyfs, and such.

Thoughtseize should be ran in here because it's better than Force Spike. Spell Snare is alright, but leaving mana open so you can be baited out of your tempo kinda sucks. Just run a mix of both, and now you have an amazing late game with a semi-inevitability mid-late game thanks to Thoughtseize.

Thoughtseize sucks against Goyf Sligh, kinda... you should lose to Goyf Sligh anyway. Although, Thoughtseize has taken down a good number of Price of Progresses and opposing Goyfs.

Here is my current list after some tampering this morning...


// Lands 23
2 Lonely Sandbar
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
3 Island


// Creatures 6
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker


// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Pernicious Deed


// Sideboard 15
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Smother/Chainer's Edict/Perish
1 Raven's Crime


I don't feel much obligation to run removal maindeck at the moment. I might cut the two EEs down to one, mainly because Thoughtseize has been so amazing. Granted, you have to get quite aggressive with Thoughtseize, after the resolution. Also, taking out Counterbalances is tres sexy, especially against ITF and Dreadstill where the 3c cards can ruin your day. Counterspells got cut down to 2, mainly because I move into midgame better with a full set of Thoughtseizes. Running 20 blue cards isnt so bad either, mainly because of said maindeck Thoughtseizes.

[Hanni]

I've been following this thread since Darkalucard posted it, as I am a huge fan of Intuition/Loam decks.

There are tons of different variations that can be derived from the basic shell, such as ITF, Intuition Thresh, and Intuition Demigod.

I believe Tombstalker is an amazing creature in a deck that not only fills the graveyard efficiently, but also uses Pernicious Deed (and potentially EE).

Why no Gigapede though? Gigapede is so rediculously powerful in Intuition/Loam shells, I can not for the life of me understand why Intuition Thresh is the only variation that runs the guy. I think a 3/1 split of Tombstalker/Gigapede, along with 4 Mishra's Factory, would have more overall synergy with the deck than 4 Goyf/2 Tombstalker/2 Factory does. Yes, I'm actually advocating that Goyf is unecessary in here. *gasp*

However, there are alot of things I don't like about the decklist.

First and foremost, Accumulated Knowledge is horrible. There is no justification for this card, with or without Intuition. Ponder is far superior in the early game and Fact or Fiction is far superior in the late game. Honestly, I'd drop AK for Standstill and run more Factories.

I'd also swap Spell Snare for Thoughtseize. Spell Snare is conditional, where Thoughtseize is far more applicable. A 3/1 split of Thoughtseize/Raven's Crime would be the combination that I would run.

I'm also of the belief that this deck needs spot removal. I'd splash white for StP, since there is really no better replacement in a control deck like this.

Lonely Sandbars are unecessary. They are horrible lands to play, and using cycling lands with the Loam engine is unecessary as well. I've played with Intuition/Loam variants for several years now; I originally started out with cycling lands and eventually dropped them entirely.

I wouldn't even include Stronghold or Ruins. Neither provide card advantage (not including the card they recur being able to create card advantage, like EE). I don't understand why the deck would need inevitability, and Mishra's Factory pretty much has that aspect covered anyway, no? Along with Gigapede, and the power of Standstill as a complimentary draw engine, recursion via Stronghold/Ruins doesn't even seem worth it.

Here's my take on Togless Tog:

Lands (23)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

Creatures (4)
3 Tombstalker
1 Gigapede

Spells (33)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives

The manabase still needs worked on, as I just made it on the spot, but I believe it should include 1 Wasteland and 4 Mishra's Factory.

[frogboy]

so you can be baited out of your tempo kinda sucks.

Yeah, I hate it when I'm playing a control deck and my opponent just says go.

[darkalucard]

@Citrus-God

I like your list and am also trying Thoughtseize again. It's definitely a very good card not entirely essential until you think about your combo match-up where with the rise of Ad Nausem I will be fitting in 3-4 Thoughtseize's also. Helps with any bad match-ups etc it's like Force of Will in that it's one of the pieces of glue that holds the format together.

@ Hanni

WTF is this post!? This isn't even close to simular to Togless this is 4C Landstill. You might as well cut Intuition and play Fact or Fiction, Intuition sucks in your list. Post your garbage lists in the 4C Landstill thread. Seriously you cut so many of the key components and strengths of Togless and threw them out the window.

I believe Tombstalker is an amazing creature in a deck that not only fills the graveyard efficiently, but also uses Pernicious Deed (and potentially EE).


Why no Gigapede though?
Because it's a terrible card. There is a reason you are the only one playing it. The only situations you need it you will already be winning, and you could just use something else to insure your win at that point anyways. Probabably a card that is actually flexible and playable before turn 5. I'm not even going to argue with you about this. I have played the card before. I don't now.


First and foremost, Accumulated Knowledge is horrible. There is no justification for this card, with or without Intuition. Ponder is far superior in the early game and Fact or Fiction is far superior in the late game. Honestly, I'd drop AK for Standstill and run more Factories.
At first I thought so too and I actually tested Ponder before AK as it seemed like it would be better. But it's not mainly because It's a Sorcery and I don't want to play draw spells during my main phase. I want to have mana open for playing counterspells and etc EOT not Ponder and OOPS I have no mana to play Counterspell. Also this is a control deck which wins with forms of card advantage in which Ponder does not help. It's terrible in this deck. Obviouslly it's good in threshold this is not threshold. And I've already stated reasons why I wouldn't run Standstill. It comes down to Standstill vs. Intuition and this deck plays Intuition. End of Story. If you want to recommend Intuition in a Landstill deck than you can have them rip you apart in a Landstill thread.


I'd also swap Spell Snare for Thoughtseize. Spell Snare is conditional, where Thoughtseize is far more applicable. A 3/1 split of Thoughtseize/Raven's Crime would be the combination that I would run.

Maybe, maybe. But the deck flows nicely with Spell Snare and Counterspell complimenting each others weakness's. I would like to play Thoughtseize but most likely with Spell Snare also.


I'm also of the belief that this deck needs spot removal. I'd splash white for StP, since there is really no better replacement in a control deck like this.
One of the key strengths of this deck is NOT PLAYING WHITE seriously this deck is better without it. I already need double black, double blue, and green I dont need white. I have already tested this. If you want main deck spot removal run Smother/Snuff Out. I recommend it and the French players run 3x Smother in the SB. I agree with Spot Removal but please don't ever suggest running another color again.


Lonely Sandbars are unecessary. They are horrible lands to play, and using cycling lands with the Loam engine is unecessary as well. I've played with Intuition/Loam variants for several years now; I originally started out with cycling lands and eventually dropped them entirely.

You never get Loam/Cycle/Cycle the only time I get them is if I've already drawn or gotten allot of targets and I can afford to get one, or maybe Loam/Waste/Cycle although I would prob get Ravens Crime over the cycler in that pile. Also you can draw into them and so whenever you Loam you don't have to skip your draw which is the main reason why they are there. I would play Cycle lands over Ponders at least they are played as an Instant. I have been playing 1x Sandbar for a while and it is never hurt me and it has helped soo much. It's deff worth at least 1 slot.


I wouldn't even include Stronghold or Ruins. Neither provide card advantage (not including the card they recur being able to create card advantage, like EE). I don't understand why the deck would need inevitability, and Mishra's Factory pretty much has that aspect covered anyway, no? Along with Gigapede, and the power of Standstill as a complimentary draw engine, recursion via Stronghold/Ruins doesn't even seem worth it.

Your joking right? Playing Intuition without the main targets... wow what is up with you. Seriously...

And your decklist... no Tarmogoyfs.... your mocking this thread aren't you?...

[Citrus-God]

@Citrus-God

I like your list and am also trying Thoughtseize again. It's definitely a very good card not entirely essential until you think about your combo match-up where with the rise of Ad Nausem I will be fitting in 3-4 Thoughtseize's also. Helps with any bad match-ups etc it's like Force of Will in that it's one of the pieces of glue that holds the format together.

I'm glad you're taking the time to try out Thoughtseize. I guarantee that your bad match ups will get better and your good match-ups will probably end up being easier to maneuver around. Only time I dont want to play Thoughtseize is when I'm up against a Sligh-esque or 9 Land Stompy deck. That's about it. I'd much prefer to run more EEs, Spell Snares, Force Spikes, and such in those kind of metagames.


It's funny how Thoughtseize and Counterbalance and FoW is holding the format together. Sadly, Counterbalance kills everything except Ichorid. Goddammit.

[Maveric78f]

What about duress over thoughtseize? Especially when you play 4*deed + 2*EE.

4*AK can be replaced with 2/3*cunning wish + 1/2*random cards too.

Here is the build I'm testing:

// Lands
4 [B] Underground Sea
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [TSP] Swamp (2)
4 [U] Tropical Island
2 [P3] Island (2)
1 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Bayou
2 [ON] Lonely Sandbar
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp

// Spells
4 [ST] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [US] Duress
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 2 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [9E] Naturalize
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [ON] Smother

[Infinitium]

Having played simular decks I can attest to AK being a good option here. Digging for answers versus faster decks whilst keeping counter mana open is a good thing, as is the fact that it allows the deck to recover in case the first Intuition ended up being countered/Discarded versus control. Instant speed and actual card advantage is huge.

[Solknar]

Mav, I can't understand the purpose of naturalize in the SB: if you play wish, you already have 3 manas to cast grip. so what the point?
how about mishra? don't you regret them some games? (recursive blocker against aggro, against still.dec...)

[darkalucard]

@ Thoughtseize

I tested this card in the deck and I do not believe it fits. Every time I cast it I would rather it have been a Counterspell; Spell Snare; or Removal spell. I can't stop their top-decks with it. I play it T1 and take a card but they still get to play a card T2. It's so much better when they have to waste their turn playing the card and you counter it as it buys time. Just the way this deck works and flows I thought it was terrible. I do admit if combo is a problem then maybe discard should be run but right now I'm testing it in the Sideboard. And I can see it helping against control, (letting cards resolve) but I haven't had a problem with control. I have beaten Ad Nausem and Solidarity without Thoughtseize (Raven's Crime FTW) although it can be scary, even scary enough that I am currently testing 4x Duress is the sideboard for Combo; Control; Burn; Sligh; or to replace dead card main deck.

@ Removal

I have found that there is no way that I can play this deck without main deck removal. I see it as a must. Also Pernicious Deed is pretty slow and is not needed against many decks where Engineered Explosives wouldn't be just as good or better. I like Deeds Sideboard and Spot Removal Maindeck.

Other Thoughts:

Why not play four of the following cards other than there is no room?

Counterspell

I think 4 is too much and there are enough decks were the card would suck if you draw too many.
Tombstalker

Obviously because you cant cast them till mid game and them being hard to play one after another. BUT the card is so powerful that does the disadvantage of drawing too many outweigh the Power of drawing them more? Since it is such a powerful creature. IMO better than Goyf.
Intuition

Simular to Tombstalker except extras can be pitched to FOW and the decks main gameplan revolves around Intuition so much more than Tombstalker or any other individual card.
Spell Snare

I think 4 is too much because of how it is conditional and some decks the card has almost no targets whatsoever.

[Maveric78f]

Mav, I can't understand the purpose of naturalize in the SB: if you play wish, you already have 3 manas to cast grip. so what the point?
how about mishra? don't you regret them some games? (recursive blocker against aggro, against still.dec...)

If I already had to cast a spell which my opponent could answer, what's the point in being unrespondible ? The only use to have krosan grip in SB is to dodge counterbalance or chalice@2 (and spellsnare). The use to have naturalise is to save 1 mana, specially when you need to disenchant in the given turn and you have only 5 manas available.

[Nihil Credo]

The only use to have krosan grip in SB is to dodge counterbalance or chalice@2 (and spellsnare)
Those aren't exactly small points, I'd say. Especially the first.

I agree that Split Second isn't very useful in the wishboard (especially since people will expect Grip even if you have something else), but you could play Sundering Vitae. Molder and Mystic Melting would be secondary candidates.

[Maveric78f]

Sundering vitae is probably completely better than both krosan grip and naturalise, it's ability to be cast without green mana is really cool.
Molder is cool too, but it does not take care of chalice@1, but do we really care?
Mystic Melting is subpar imo. When you pay 7, you don't expect to draw 1 as a bonus. You do it because you need a solution.

I will playtest with vitae and ask myself each time if molder would not have been better in its place.

[ScatmanX]

Don´t know if the double G is prohibitive, but there is also Rending Vines. I cant think of many enchantments/artfacts it wouldn´t destroy.

[Maveric78f]

GG is clearly prohibitive.

[johanessen]

I do like AK over FoF in Intuition decks. About creatures i also think Tog is no longer good, and Gigapede is a bad card.

Creatures i like:
3 x Tarmogoyf
2 x Tombstalker
1 x Etermal Witness
1 x Stinkweed Imp

Board Control:
3 x Pernicious Deed
2 x EE

Counterspells:
4 x FoW
3 x Counterspell
3 x Spell Snare

Drawing and Cantrip:
4 x Intuition
4 x Brainstorm
4 x AK

Stuff:
1 x Life from the Loam
1 x Chainer's Edict
1 x Vedalken Shackles

Total--37

Lands:
4 x Polluted Delta
4 x Flooded Strand
4 x Tropical Island
3 x Underground Sea
1 x Bayou
1 x Island
1 x Swamp
1 x Wasteland
1 x Academy Ruins
1 x Volrath Stronhold
2 x Lonely Sandbar

[landstill101]

creature [7]
1 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
instant [22]
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
4 Spell Snare
sorcery [1]
1 Life from the Loam
enchantment [4]
4 Pernicious Deed
artifact [1]
1 Engineered Explosives
land [25]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Lonely Sandbar
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Darkblast
2 Disrupt
3 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast
2 Smother
3 Tormod's Crypt


This is the latest deck that has been played(got from the first post)
this is the average ITF build right now

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Counterspell
1 Life from the Loam
4 Intuition
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Eternal Witness
1 Etched Oracle
4 Force of Will
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard
4 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Spell Snare

The first main difference I see is the manabase
ITF runs around 21-23 lands with only 2 of them being colorless and 4 colors, while this tog deck runs 25 lands and 5 colorless 2 lands that come into play tapped and only 16 ways to get blue when ITF has 19 in a deck that wants to have double blue early. Right there first off your drawing too many lands with the deck and its actually a worse manabase than than ITF even though it is only 3 colors compared to 4

For removal, you only run 4 deeds and 1 explosives and no instant removal, while ITF runs 3 deeds 2 explosives, a shackles and 4 swords(easily the best spot removal in the game.) So ITF has better removal overall than this deck....

For CA you have 3 intuitions 4 AK and 4 brainstorms While ITF has 4 Intuition 4 brainstorms and 3 tops so your deck does not have any card advantage of ITF at all and personally I feel that tops are better than AK...

For counterspells you have 4 spell snares, 4 force of wills, 3 counterspells. While ITF has 4 force of will's 2 counterspells and 4 counterbalance... If you talk to threshold players many of them will say that ITF has the better counterspells for legacy because counterbalance is an endless supply of counterspells. While you will run out and have no way of bringing them back.

Creatures, you have 4 Tarmogoyf and 2 tombstalker with a lonely imp, while ITF has 4 tarmogoyf 1 etched oracle and 1 eternal witness. Now with the creatures you may feel that you have the upper hand because of the explosiveness with tombstalker but in reality the etched oracle has the ability to competly blow this deck away with card advantage while you have no way to remove it and ITF has swords for your tombstalker, and we have eternal witness to bring back anything we want to stop you again.

For loam piles, you guys can do 1 thing that ITF can't... get AK but whats the point of drawing cards when ITF is playing more than 1 of things and has witness to get the card they need to win instead of paying 5 mana to hope on drawing something you need. ITF can easily search for 3 swords to stop a tombstalker or go for 3 explosives and an eternal witness, or go for 4 counterbalance to get the lock.

Oh and counterbalance does stop your deck, you only have 6 cards in the deck that are considered out of counterbalance range and 4 of them are force of will and 2 are tombstalker which is easily removed by swords(and ITF will win a counter war to see if it hits or not because of Counterbalance.)

There is a reason why almost every deck that has green run at least 3 krosan grips in side instead of naturalize......counterbalance......


I see no reason to play this deck when ITF has more answers, better CA, better counterspells and a more stable manabase and still running one more color.

[darkalucard]

Well landstill101, you asked for it. :wink:


The first main difference I see is the manabase
ITF runs around 21-23 lands with only 2 of them being colorless and 4 colors, while this tog deck runs 25 lands and 5 colorless 2 lands that come into play tapped and only 16 ways to get blue when ITF has 19 in a deck that wants to have double blue early. Right there first off your drawing too many lands with the deck and its actually a worse manabase than than ITF even though it is only 3 colors compared to 4

How many colorless lands a deck runs is irrelevant. What matters is how many colored lands your run. So yes 16 vs. 19 if you don't count sandbars. But the truth is there isn't much of a reason to run more than 14 or 16 blue sources in a deck like these besides having double blue turn 1. The chances of you having a hand with a blue source in it by playing +3 land (19) over 16 is only increased by 2.5%. You can only experience the difference in the long run. 1 in 40 games Togless will mulligan once more than ITF. You would have to play in two 8 rounds tournaments to get that difference. Which proves in the short term it doesn't matter.

I would still say the Togless mana base is better though because you will run into less color issues since your playing 3 colors compared to 4 which is a whole lot of a bigger difference than critizing the mana base but by looking at the spells each deck actually plays with its mana base you will see that Togless spells are easier to cast.

As for having too many lands. I agree to an extent I think Togless should run closer to 23 lands. But other than that what it loses from drawing an extra land it makes up through playing AK and being able to hit its very important land drops more often.


For removal, you only run 4 deeds and 1 explosives and no instant removal, while ITF runs 3 deeds 2 explosives, a shackles and 4 swords(easily the best spot removal in the game.) So ITF has better removal overall than this deck....

Deed is not as powerful in ITF because of the permanents it runs. Togless running Deed I think means allot more and can be used more aggressively. While the main difference is ITF running Swords, Togless usually runs 3x Spot Removal in the Sideboard, and my personal lists I play it main deck. While obviouslly STP is better Togless makes up for it by playing less colors and by having deed more powerful.


For CA you have 3 intuitions 4 AK and 4 brainstorms While ITF has 4 Intuition 4 brainstorms and 3 tops so your deck does not have any card advantage of ITF at all and personally I feel that tops are better than AK...

This can't really be argued because it's more opinion and play style. It's basically Card Quality vs. Card Quantity. I would say that each deck runs the best card advantage beyond the initial Intuitions and Brainstorms that their decks can run. Each plays the best for synergy and play style.


For counterspells you have 4 spell snares, 4 force of wills, 3 counterspells. While ITF has 4 force of will's 2 counterspells and 4 counterbalance... If you talk to threshold players many of them will say that ITF has the better counterspells for legacy because counterbalance is an endless supply of counterspells. While you will run out and have no way of bringing them back.

Overall this is a Pro Counterbalance vs. Anti Counterbalance thing. Togless is obviously the latter. And the former ITF. I would like to say that not all Threshold decks run Counterbalance, and most Landstill decks don't either. If you can't bare to imagine playing blue without counterbalance I suggest you look at other threads and play other decks.


Creatures, you have 4 Tarmogoyf and 2 tombstalker with a lonely imp, while ITF has 4 tarmogoyf 1 etched oracle and 1 eternal witness. Now with the creatures you may feel that you have the upper hand because of the explosiveness with tombstalker but in reality the etched oracle has the ability to competly blow this deck away with card advantage while you have no way to remove it and ITF has swords for your tombstalker, and we have eternal witness to bring back anything we want to stop you again.

In my testing it seems like Oracle and Witness only matter in games you already have won. By the time you can afford to take advantage of their ability's you have the game won already. I think both are extremely weak cards and over all useless and don't help against anything that you need help against. Tombstalker is amazing in today's metagame and has great synergy with deed. I think he is a better card than Tarmogoyf, he as won games by himself where a Goyf could not go. Togless is obviously better in the threat department and I don't see how you can even argue that. Also playing Stinkweed allows you to take advantage of an Intuition a full turn earlier. Instead of having to waste a set up turn on recuring something with the lands. Stinkweed is also a bomb against decks like Team America, Eva Green , and Aggro Loam. Those can be tough match ups and Stinkweed means allot there.


For loam piles, you guys can do 1 thing that ITF can't... get AK but whats the point of drawing cards when ITF is playing more than 1 of things and has witness to get the card they need to win instead of paying 5 mana to hope on drawing something you need. ITF can easily search for 3 swords to stop a tombstalker or go for 3 explosives and an eternal witness, or go for 4 counterbalance to get the lock.

Because sometimes Intuition sucks and its just some much better to have a handful of cards. Allot of times AK's aren't even used with Intuition but more as Fact or Fiction's split up into 4 cards better suited to for the mana curve. I don't want to talk about Eternal Witness, Togless can support him better and we don't. As for your other points I don't get what your point is.


Oh and counterbalance does stop your deck, you only have 6 cards in the deck that are considered out of counterbalance range and 4 of them are force of will and 2 are tombstalker which is easily removed by swords(and ITF will win a counter war to see if it hits or not because of Counterbalance.)

Togless has Spells Snare, more Counterspells, EE, Deed, and more card advantage vs. your Counterbalance. I have never had that much of a problem with counterbalance. Allot of the times ITF is stuck on defense because playing CB/Top/Witness/Oracle makes you so much slower. Most times I get into a situation with a Counterbalance on the table I have Deed, EE, or a creature on the table.


There is a reason why almost every deck that has green run at least 3 krosan grips in side instead of naturalize......counterbalance......
WTF! Because most decks only play 1cc-2cc spells. Without any main deck answers to it! Togless can play Intuitions, Tombstalkers, and Forces while using Deed and EE to get rid of Counterbalance. 6x Main deck anwsers and a varied enough curve not to scoop to it!



I see no reason to play this deck when ITF has more answers, better CA, better counterspells and a more stable manabase and still running one more color.

Because ITF has:

Less answers
Worse Card advantage
Worse counterspells
Less stable mana base
and runs more colors!


Bottom Line:
When it comes down to it it's Counterbalance vs No Counterbalance and 4 Colors vs. 3 colors. With each deck having it's own synergy's. Please come up with better constructed arguments than ranting about a deck you know nothing about. Everything you said carried no weight whatsoever and left me with nothing to think about, no good examples where Togless might be truly lacking. I think if you actually took some time to think about it and came up with some arguments that really made me wonder. I would have to congratulate you. But as is I'm let down by the community on this forum constructively talking about Togless without just saying "Counterbalance and STP Rules! You Suck!".

I would have to say Togless plays out much more smoothly and is very synergistic. While ITF feels very clunky and feels like its trying to do everything when it can't.