[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo [Archive] - Page 6

bum_man

01-12-2010, 09:59 AM

I have a question on sideboarding tactics.

I tend to overboard in g2 (not that often in g3, when I know opposing hate and I also start.)
What is the correct number of cards to take out to both improve our post-board game, but not simmultaneously cripple the deck? For a long time I thought (and it worked well) that something about 6-7 is the best number, as you take 4 Grudges (considering you'll see Crypt/Relic, not LotV) and yet some number of Chains to have more hate than they have Crypts. But sometimes I also take some random stuff (e.g. Blazing Archon that is really good against NQGw or NO-Thresh/Dreadstill decks with not many removal, but fast clock). so I sideboard eight cards. I always take out some Ichorids and Ghasts (if I am going to face the anti-grave cards, I don't wanna rely too much on my GY), Breakthrough (but not more, as I wanna "combo out" once I get rid of their hate), FKZ (namely in matchups where I have inevitability, but also if they can rfg my BfB and/or stall my Troll with chumpblockers - Goblins come to mind), sometimes a DReturn when I don't board in targets, one Narcomoeba and a Thug (just because I need space, not that it is great move to take out drdgers/free creatures), sometimes even a Bridge (if they really have too many outs for them - Affinity, mirror). In short - my blind sb tactics looks like this:

-1 Ichorid
-1 BGhast
-1 Breakthrough
-1 FKZ
-1 Moeba
-1 Thug
-1 DReturn

+4 Ancient Grudge
+3 Chain of Vapor

Is it reasonable?
This is definitely too much, don't you feel that your doesn't function very fluidly. I suggest just putting in 4 Chain of Vapors game 2 vs blue for -3 breakthrough and probably a return or -2breakthrough, -1return -1target for anything not blue. Then exchange the chains for more specific answers game 3. The most I've boarded in my deck was I think, 7 = 4 Grudges, 2 Firestorms, and 1 Ancestor's Chosen vs Goblins. Taking out -1breakthrough, -1study, -1return, -1FKZ, -2tribes, 1therapy, but this includes match-up specific cards and not just answers, imo, 4 answers are enough especially with a very explosive build with the deck.

NQN

01-12-2010, 10:59 AM

I board 3 Grudges vs everything except MonoBlack Suicide or things like that.
NEVER take out Moeba/Ichorid/BFB since they are the way to bait a Crypt if you´re not hitting a Grudge that early. I nearly never side in Chain, just once in ~20 rounds of sanctioned play while Grudge went in 19/20 games.
With the LEDLess build I usually side BT´s and 1-2 DR Targets, then some Studys if neccecary.

AngryTroll

01-12-2010, 12:07 PM

Unless I expect Leyline (UB Control, mono-black, anything with Deed), I simply board in three or four Ancient Grudges. Never board out Bridge or Narcomoeba. I usually start with -1 Thug, -1 Therapy, -1 Dread Return (my only target game one is GGT), -1 PImp/Tribe/Breakthrough/Careful Study.

Is there an effective way to play around Ravenous Trap? It's not so bad when you have a Tribe or Imp in play and dredge for the turn, but I lost a match this weekend to a game three RTrap when I went all in on Breakthrough against Zoo. Trap left me with one land in play, no cards in hand or graveyard, and a very lonely Tireless Tribe that ate a Chain Lightning.

Aleksandr

01-12-2010, 12:16 PM

Thanks for feedback, guys!

As I already stated, my reasoning for cutting the Ichos and BfB was like this: either I get my anti-hate and then I won from BT/Colliseum. Or I fail to draw my anti-hate, but as I don't rely on my GY that much, I can win on the backs of fast flying beats, Ghast or two and a few zombie tokens.

I'll try the recommended sb route.

NQN

01-12-2010, 01:27 PM

@Angry Troll: Seriously, don´t board out Pimp or Tribe. They are the key why we don´t loose to Relic/Crypt...
@Trap: I just played against a Faerie Deck on MWS which had 2 Crypts, 3 Traps and 2 Truths out of the board and I lost to double Trap+Crypt both games, the third piece always beeing topdecked. Usually we should be able to win through a trap if we know they have it. If your Opponent immediatly keeps his hand and then DON`T opens with a hatecard he will most likely have a Trap/Extirpate or slowroll another hatecard which happens rarely.

jimirynk

01-12-2010, 03:18 PM

Trap isn't that deadly do to the fact that you still have your dredger in your hand.
The best way to deal with this is to force them to use it with narco triggers/bghast triggers/ichorid triggers/ and therapy's going to your yard.
These cards/triggers will scare your opponent to use the hate before the hate becomes useless.

Your ichorids are sooooo good vs the trap do to them being trap proof(unless they have 4 mana up with double black) also if they trap you after you dredge they're still in play and will return back to your yard.

PLAY 4 ICHORIDS.
Even with your Bghast lists play 4 ichorids the hate is rough out there.

I'm ranting and exhausted.
pc

frogboy

01-12-2010, 03:45 PM

AngryTroll

01-12-2010, 03:50 PM

Trap isn't that deadly do to the fact that you still have your dredger in your hand.

Usually true. However, Trap after Breakthrough wins games. I guess the answer, then, is to play Breakthrough more carefully if you suspect Trap; however, it's hard to predict Trap versus Crypt or Relic against a deck like Zoo.

PLAY 4 ICHORIDS.

How universal is 4 Ichorids? Should both LED and Tribe lists run four? I've seen Tribe lists running three more often than four.

BreathWeapon

01-12-2010, 04:05 PM

Usually true. However, Trap after Breakthrough wins games. I guess the answer, then, is to play Breakthrough more carefully if you suspect Trap; however, it's hard to predict Trap versus Crypt or Relic against a deck like Zoo.

How universal is 4 Ichorids? Should both LED and Tribe lists run four? I've seen Tribe lists running three more often than four.

I've never seen a competent Ichorid pilot use less than 4x, it's pretty mandatory for post-board games.

NQN

01-12-2010, 04:06 PM

The best cards against hate are our 1 mana outlet-creatures. BT isn´t nearly as good when it comes to bait a crypt/relic. I agree with you that BT is still neckbreaking postboard, but usually you don´t want to go all-in and therefor don´t need the full playset.

Raptor

01-12-2010, 04:07 PM

I cut Breakthrough exactly never. It's actually the best card against hate. Either you kill them on turn two and they never get a chance to draw hate, or you bounce or kill their hate card and kill them before they can draw another. Or you force them to Crypt you because you are working them with Bridges, and then you kill them the next turn.

Cabal Therapy beats Ravenous Trap.

I board out an Ichorid against most aggro decks because the 3/1 attacker isn't useful if you are losing, but being able to kickstart your Bridges is occasionally useful. Do other people cut Therapy, or what?

edit: sometimes I think about shaving a Tarnished Citadel but never do.

Boarding to less then 3 ichorid is a big NOT. Even agaisnt aggro you want to to get 2/2 zomvies and you want to dread return your targets even easier. Aggro often remove your creatures so you really need your ichorid to dread return big things such as IONA or Ancestor's Chosen.

I often keep 2 breakthrough because it's so explosive in game 2 or 3 that you recover from hate REALLY quickly. I often board out 1 Golgari Thug, 1 Ichorid, 1 Tireless tribe and X breakthrough.

Has anyone ever won a round agaisnt merfolk ? I'm pretty sure that if we do not count stax, it's our worst match up. I played agaisnt my team mate in a tournament and he won game 1 and game 2. I couldn't do anything... (he is playing 3 jitte main, 12 lords, 3 echoing truth and he is playing 3 traps in side.

Game one he kept me out of the game with cursecatchers + wasteland and killed me turn 4. Game 2 He had 2 dazes, 1 FOW, 1 Cursecatcher, wasteland and he put pressure on me with his fish and when I tried to breakthrough, I got my whole yard removed with the trap.

Kesta

01-12-2010, 04:07 PM

One answer is to side out BT

Muradin

01-12-2010, 04:31 PM

Aleksandr

01-12-2010, 04:31 PM

Raptor

01-12-2010, 04:39 PM

Merfolk is a pretty good matchup indeed. I feel very comfortable playing vs merfolk with my build and didn't experience severe problems against it thus far. My sideboarding with the build from the tournament report against merfolk is:

+4 Grudge, +3 Firestorm, -2 Therapy, -1 Thug

Grudge kills Gy hate and Jitte and sometimes even Aether Vial if they got nothing of the first two cards and I can slow them down or screw them by doing so while Firestorm will net you wins against Merfolk despite them having 3 pieces of hate or more. You can just play out your dudes and Firestorm away their board in a good moment.

EDIT: You could also have a look at Richard Feldman's games against Merfolk in the GP Chicago coverage as they are quite nice.

Are you kidding ?
Merfolk match up is nowhere near positive.

It's in fact one of our worst match up. Maybe you've played agaisnt bad players...

Jitte kills you if not answered. Have fun trying to cast grudge with cursecatcher, daze, fow and wasteland.
Wasting one land can screw you, forcing one spell can screw you. They are too fast to DDD.

With their sideboard you can meet 3-5 hate and some have MD echoing truth. You better be extremly lucky or them being extremly unlucky to win.

NQN

01-12-2010, 05:18 PM

Anusien

01-12-2010, 05:45 PM

The only time I think I'm afraid of Trap is when they float it with Top. I'm considering SBing Null Rod to beat this.

Raptor

01-12-2010, 05:45 PM

With the LED-list merrows is one of the matchups I like to see the most. They just can´t do anything unless they have Relics MD+Propaganda Sideboard.
That was the only way one could win against me but apart from that, I´m X-0 against folks. They have zero removal for Ichorids, only 4 dudes to remove bridges and if you play correctly, daze/wasteland shouldn´t matter that much.
I´d figure that it´s even better without LEDs because Land,Tribe/P.Imp should win you the game.
Just for fun, here are the decks I like to see the most:
1. Sligh/Zoo -They never have much hate and if they have, they can´t back it up

2. All Blue Decks including CounterTop/Canadian/Folks DDD>Them

3. Loam.dec

Our worst matchups are:
Staxx,ANT,ITF(postboard it really sucks) and probably some more I can´t remember.

TL;dr: Merrows is a good matchup and I´m always comfortable playing against it. Every Folksplayer I had to face went like "ooohh, why do I have to play against Dredge?!?:cry: "

A LOT of players are saying "why do I have to play agaisnt dredge", even if they have a good match up agaisnt it.
By the way, go ask 'folk thread, they will say that Ichorid is a good match up for them. Every merfolk players in my area agree that Ichorid is a really good match up for them.

How can you say that DDD is good agaisnt merfolk ? No way that you are going to race them with it. You would need some real luck to win against folks with DDD. Jitte also removes their own creatures to remove your bridge and it also kills your ichorid badly. Some version also runs echoing truth which means that it can remove for a long time your ichorid and it can remove your tokens.

Daze and wasteland do not matter ? Daze is one of the best (if not the best) counter versus us. It costs 0 mana and it's almost sure that you are countering a spell. Wasteland is a big pain. Have fun ancient grudging with no land in play, have fun trying to cast breakthrough, careful study, putrid imp with 0 land in play, have fun trying to do coliseum with no other land in play. Of course T1 PiMP or Trible have some good chance of winning the game. But they resolve jitte in time, you're dead, they can still race you even without jitte if they counter your draw spells. Not to mention they have several ways to keep you off you're discard outlet. (Catcher, daze, FOW)

Post side, if you have firestorm, it can be ok. But don't count on doing damages to their fish, it's pretty rare. They pack lots of counterspell plus they can let you have your firestorm and remove your grave after. If they remove your grave, they will, most of the time, be able to race you. Not to mention some version run the trap so it's even worse.

Seriously, have you evey play a game agaisnt a player that is experienced vs merfolk ?

By the way, I'm about 0-4 agaisnt folk, and I have a record of about 40-10 with ichorid. (tournaments)

REALLY Good match ups :
Countertop
Burn
Goyf Sligh
Landstill
Canadian *****

Good-decent match up

Zoo if they have enough hate in the board, jitte they have a decent take versus you. Especially that they EASILY kill their own creature, and removes yours really easily.

Bad match up
ANT
Merfolk
Stax
Dragon Stompy

BreathWeapon

01-12-2010, 05:55 PM

Raptor

01-12-2010, 06:24 PM

Merfolk isn't a bad match up, it's a good match up, I've beat it again and again with DDD (and 4 Bloodghasts) with little to no problems. As long as Merfolk doesn't have evasion, Zombies and Ichorids will steady overwhelm them. They also have little to no answers for a Returned Troll, I've never lost a match to Merfolk online/live and it comes down to the hate more often than not.

I was not talking about the bloodghast version, which might do better. By the way, they can chumpbluck the troll and attack you, they can echoing truth it and the chance that you will have a dread return can be pretty slim.

jimirynk

01-12-2010, 10:16 PM

Aleksandr

01-13-2010, 12:57 AM

The only time I think I'm afraid of Trap is when they float it with Top. I'm considering SBing Null Rod to beat this.

I'm considering to play Null rod too. Because I hate to lose to diverse hate (last time I met a guy playing four Relics and triple Crypt), also because I've lost games to Top/Jitte shenanigans. It can screw combo, too.
but namely on the draw we can play it turn3 at best (or a turn faster if we don't need to have it Daze-proof), which in fact is not that good against any Waste.dec or fasopponent..
So I dismissed it, but I am still really curious ybout your results with the card.

BreathWeapon

01-13-2010, 04:11 AM

-1

IDK what to tell you, but if you can't beat Merfolk pre-board then you're doing it wrong. Even if the match up is "bad," you've got Firestorm, Darkblast and a couple of other choices to bury the match up.

1maarten1

01-13-2010, 05:14 AM

IDK what to tell you, but if you can't beat Merfolk pre-board then you're doing it wrong. Even if the match up is "bad," you've got Firestorm, Darkblast and a couple of other choices to bury the match up.

those are 2 cards that he doesnt run lol :rolleyes:

And Merfolk decks that have maindeck Jitte, and are pilotted by a descent player its a pretty tough first match.

And ofcourse you can win with god dredges and hands, but that doesnt tell you that everyone should have a good matchup vs Merfolk right? :wink:

~Maarten

Aleksandr

01-13-2010, 12:58 PM

jimirynk

01-13-2010, 05:46 PM

Wow, I just beat Merfolks on MWS. Not that it was my first win, but it was for the first time I felt really confident and it went so good. Four Grudges and triple Firestorm makes it very positive, also PImp is svage against them.

OK, maybe next time I get serious beating, but this was really bodacious, namely if I compare it to my previous experiences. Also monoblue can just sadly stare at my Blazing Archon.

The hardest part about the Folk MU is how many different angles they attack you from.

Game 2 they run a combination of:
Spell pierce
Daze
Curse catcher
Propaganda
Relic
Crypt
Force
Ravenous trap
Echoing thruth
Stifle
Wastle land
E.E
Pithing needle
divert

All while they're putting you on a clock.
Now out of all of these cards the one that gives me the most trouble is wasteland..

Its very hard to play around wasteland if not impossible.
I often board an additional rainbow land if I expect a lot of the folk.
What good is firestorm/grudge/pithing needle with no lands.

Now an average folk player Sb contains 15 cards that are all good against us, many of the players who haven't tested vs. dredge will try their hardest to fit in all 15 cards which can slow their clock down enough to slow roll them.

But slow rolling is almost impossible with no lands in play vs. folk, and it is usually GG against an active jittie.

Just entering my 2 cents on my opinion of the merfolk MU.

johanessen

01-14-2010, 05:31 AM

What do you think about this list, I'm no longer running Narcomoeba:

4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Gemstone Mine

4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Eternal Witness

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return

Sideboard
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Unmask
4 Leyline of the Void or Firestorm (depends on what I expect from meta)
3 Wispmare

It's lot more consistent but doesn't combo fast, you get the tokens and go to the long run. I started with Iona as DR target but i found Witness necessary to get a land back for Bloodghasts. I still think Iona is necessary but can't make space for that.
13 Lands is enough, and I really love to play Careful Study in Ichorid.

Any help is welcome!

NQN

01-14-2010, 11:24 AM

If you always open up with a Paradise that build might be worth a consideration, otherwise... :frown:

Anusien

01-14-2010, 12:01 PM

AngryTroll

01-14-2010, 12:16 PM

I started with Iona as DR target but i found Witness necessary to get a land back for Bloodghasts.

I'd definitely throw in a Dakmor Salvage if this is a problem. It doesn't dredge nearly as impressively as the rest of the Dredgers, but it's much simpler (and harder to disrupt) play than casting Dread Return for a Witness for a land.

I'm skeptical about the 0 Narcomoeba plan. I kind of like the 4 Bloodghast, 4 Ichorid plan, but I think I'd like it even better with 4 Narcomoeba as well.

pippo84

01-14-2010, 01:09 PM

I would never play with any less than 3 Narcomoebas!
You could cut 2 tribes as a start and then 2 other cards, maybe -1 study -1 breakthrough.

Just my opinion, Moeba is just too strong not to play!

umbowta

01-14-2010, 01:25 PM

Jim Higginbottom

01-14-2010, 01:36 PM

My team has been talking about replacing narcomoebas with bloodghasts. Let us know how it works out for you.

cwt1220

01-14-2010, 01:48 PM

What exactly do you think makes Moeba so strong? It's actually pretty weak outside of its' synergy with dredge. Doesn't moeba generally just get sacced to Dread Return or Cabal Therapy while making tokens off Bridge(s)? In which case, it would seem that Bloodghast a better sacrificial lamb due to it's ability to recur, be sacced again, make more tokens, etc.

Narco is so good, because it just comes into play off of all the different draw spells in the deck. You don't to remove a black creature for it, like ichorid, and you don't have to make a land drop, like bloodghast. I can't imagine playing the deck without him in it.

-Chris-

Anusien

01-14-2010, 02:13 PM

Narcomoeba flies. It's so good to attack without having to worry about trading off your Bridges with a Dark Confidant. I've also randomly beaten Moat with Narocomoebas, Putrid Imps and Stinkweed Imps.

TheBirdMan

01-14-2010, 02:15 PM

its' synergy with dredge.

/Argument.

johanessen

01-14-2010, 02:20 PM

/Argument.

That's not a definitive argument. Bloodghast has also sinergy with dredge, plus it's a recurrable creature, plus it's black so they feed unmask/ichorid, and come all together when you make a landdrop. You can get them, use for Therapy/DR and next turn you'll get em another time. Also, has more sinergy with Tireless Tribe/Pimp, while Narcomoeba has more sinergy with pure draw spells and effects -dredge-. Narcomoeba is better at beatdown when they have blockers, and has good sinergy with Thugs. Nothing more. And Both are hardcasteable.
I think Narcomoebas are better in the LED version, while the LEDLess version is better for recurreable beaters

cwt1220

01-14-2010, 02:33 PM

That's not a definitive argument. Bloodghast has also sinergy with dredge, plus it's a recurrable creature, plus it's black so they feed unmask/ichorid, and come all together when you make a landdrop. You can get them, use for Therapy/DR and next turn you'll get em another time. Also, has more sinergy with Tireless Tribe/Pimp, while Narcomoeba has more sinergy with pure draw spells and effects -dredge-. Narcomoeba is better at beatdown when they have blockers, and has good sinergy with Thugs. Nothing more. And Both are hardcasteable.
I think Narcomoebas are better in the LED version, while the LEDLess version is better for recurreable beaters

Bloodghast has good synergy with dredge as well, but they don't do their job very well if they get removed to unmask and ichorid as you stated. I like that narco flies as well as coming into to play off just about everything you do in this deck. The deck becomes less consistent when you have to add more lands just to make bloodghast more consistent. Plus moeba can chump bigger creatures, which bloodghast can not do. All in all, they both have good synergy with the deck I just prefer to go the way of the narco, because I feel he does everything bloodghast does plus a little more.

-Chris-

Raptor

01-14-2010, 02:42 PM

I can't figure if people are trying to troll us with the Narcomoeba-less topic.

Anyway, it's a bad idea because it doesn't require you to put a land or to fold a black creature to play it. Play the deck a lot, versus a lot of match ups and you'll figure that Narcomoeba is one of the creatures that makes the strenght of dredge.

I've been facing so many times letal damage, the only card that could save me was a narcomoeba, so I could DR the flamekin zealot.
A lot of time you want that IONA to come down one turn faster, you also want versus combo and a lot of other deck to therapy as fast as possible. You can't cut narcomoeba because it gives a lot of speed to the deck and it's way more consistant then bloodghast.

TheBirdMan

01-14-2010, 02:58 PM

@johanessen, I see what you are saying, and I agree recurrable beaters are more suited for LEDless dredge than LED dredge. However I feel that the synergy that Narcomoeba has with dredge is more efficient and consistent for these decks. Narcomoeba will always trigger and should come into play (provided no stifles or crypt effects).

With bloodghast you have to have a land. What happens when you are dredging turn 2 and have no more lands in hand. You would have to wait till next upkeep for Ichorid or stop dredging and hope to draw a land. If you had Narcomoeba you could therapy/dread return on that turn. I suppose this doesn't always happen, you could have played Undiscovered paradise turn 1 and had it bounce back. But this can be inconsistent and there will be times where you don't have the lands.

To me even the slightest percentage of consistency guarantee is huge in legacy. With the format turning very aggro based now with a lot of decks swinging for the win on turn 4 or storm combo winning turn 1-2, etc having to wait a turn or drawing a slow/sketchy hand can easily cost you the game or match.

johanessen

01-14-2010, 02:58 PM

And what`s your opinion when you draw opoening hands with one or some copies of moebas? Bloodghasts and Ichorids are also better there... I mean, nobody doubt it's a good creature but I think Bloodghast has some strenghts that ledless ichorid could benefit. has the people who defend moebas ever tried a list w/o them?

umbowta

01-14-2010, 02:59 PM

Narco is so good, because it just comes into play off of all the different draw spells in the deck. You don't to remove a black creature for it, like ichorid, and you don't have to make a land drop, like bloodghast. I can't imagine playing the deck without him in it.

-Chris-Narcomoeba doesn't come back from the grave like Ichorid or Bloodghast ...unless you decide to DR it or Thug it back on top before dredging You can't remove Narcomoeba to an Ichorid trigger. Narcomoeba as a sac outlet is basically a condom; you use it once and throw it away. It's far from useless but Ichorid and Bloodghast can be downright abusive.

basically...this

I'm skeptical about the 0 Narcomoeba plan. I kind of like the 4 Bloodghast, 4 Ichorid plan, but I think I'd like it even better with 4 Narcomoeba as well.

frogboy

01-14-2010, 03:28 PM

And what`s your opinion when you draw opoening hands with one or some copies of moebas?

I cast them, usually.

johanessen

01-14-2010, 04:26 PM

I cast them, usually.

As well as Bloodghasts, I suppose.

AcidFiend

01-14-2010, 04:28 PM

I think at some point you have to start questioning almost every card in a deck. You can't just label something sacred for the sake of it. The fact is, Blooghast does fulfill the same general role as Narco, therefore its not unreasonable to test a list where it is a replacement.

Bloodghast > Narco:
-all copies are returned when you drop a land
-black creature for Ichorid/Unmask
-has conditional haste
-doesn't suck in your opening hand

Narco > Blooghast:
-CIP for free via dredging
-flies
-can block
-doesn't require a land

All that said, I think adding Bloodghast in addition to Narco & Ichorid only strengthens the amount of zombies/DR's you can cast. I'd previously dropped FKZ as often I couldn't alpha strike for lethal. But with another 4 creatures, I think FKZ will be back in my deck.

Aleksandr

01-14-2010, 04:32 PM

I won many games on the backs of fast Moebas, even flying across Moat or Goyf as Anusien stated. They are too good to be cut, imho. :really:

EDIT: Narco in opening hand sucks really close to how the BG sucks - you wanna mainly discard outlet, dredgers and draw stuff.

Zappa

01-14-2010, 06:39 PM

I would also like to side in also in favor of Narcomoeba, I do not have anything against bloodghast or anything. I think if I could fit in ghast in my list, I would. Aside from the usual function of the card, there's also a few games, rare but it happened, where I have thug in play, sac the thug for therapy, and use it's ability to put nacomoeba on top of the library.

Quite a nice synergy between the two should the occasion arise. But I could also see other's opinion about ghats being able to be ichorid food as well.

BreathWeapon

01-15-2010, 05:00 AM

If you keep having to cast Dread Return on Eternal Witness just to play a land to bring back Bloodghast, it seems to make significantly more sense just to cut the Eternal Witness and run a land in its place. Sure, sometimes you don't get to Dread Return it and make lots of zombie. On the other hand, you'll find you'll get there with an early Bloodghast beatdown more often, and mulligan less. They're functionally kind of similar.

You could also cut the 3rd Dread Return for Iona.

It's not, you either run 1 Eternal Witness or you run 1 Dakmor Salvage to ensure Bloodghast activations; game 1, Eternal Witness > Dakmor Salvage because the opponent can't disrupt the Dread Return -> Eternal Witness -> Cephalid Coliseum chain that serves as a pseudo Cephalid Sage + Landfall all in 1. Post-board, where Tormod's Crypt disrupts Dread Return, it's better to board in Dakmor Salvage, and/or possibly Oboro's in place of Coliseums, because the recursion is less conditional. Tho' I wouldn't fault a MD Dakmor Salvage over Eternal Witness, because even tho' it's less explosive it's more consistent, has some utility by itself and it frees up SB slots.

As far as cutting Narcomoeba, seriously guys, stop butchering Dredge. There's no way in hell a 4th Careful Study, 4th Tireless Tribe, 3rd Dread Return or extra land is ever worth cutting Narcomoeba for.

Also, for people running the 4/3 split of Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe in Bloodghast Dredge, I think a 3/4 split may be superior because Tireless Tribe is more important vs Tarmogoyf and Zoo etc. and Ichorid can munch on Bloodghasts regardless.

Aleksandr

01-15-2010, 05:41 AM

It's not, you either run 1 Eternal Witness or you run 1 Dakmor Salvage to ensure Bloodghast activations; game 1, Eternal Witness > Dakmor Salvage because the opponent can't disrupt the Dread Return -> Eternal Witness -> Cephalid Coliseum chain that serves as a pseudo Cephalid Sage + Landfall all in 1.

:eek:
I've never thought of this usage. (And I played EW in dredge.)

Otoh, I am not sure if I really like this play, because going directly DReturn -> Sage eats no mana, while grabbibg either Colliseum / Breakthrough needs mana to continue the chain and you may not have the luxury of open mana / land drop. Not to mention that if you need to take Breakthrough (or *cough* Study *cough*), you don't even get that land that can trigger the Ghast.
Sage ensures this, because he alwas gets that same three cards as Colliseum (and you need to have threshold for both Colliseum and Sage to work.) BT draws one additional card, that for sure can make a great difference, but if you play BT:0, than you cannot keep your one card be it land or not.

Btw, I play four Ghasts and triple Salvage, cause I found the Salvage to be useful as a land. Not that it matters too much in G1, where most of the times (unless oponent throws at me anything) I go for PImp/Study -> massive BT -> gg. But in games 2-3, I like to have additional mana for SB cards (namely Grudge), to pay Propaganda/Daze mana and to slow dredge into Ghasts.

But maybe I will try the EW version. Also because it can return needed Firestorm/anything in post-sb games.

Post-board, where Tormod's Crypt disrupts Dread Return, it's better to board in Dakmor Salvage, and/or possibly Oboro's in place of Coliseums, because the recursion is less conditional. Tho' I wouldn't fault a MD Dakmor Salvage over Eternal Witness, because even tho' it's less explosive it's more consistent, has some utility by itself and it frees up SB slots.

As far as cutting Narcomoeba, seriously guys, stop butchering Dredge. There's no way in hell a 4th Careful Study, 4th Tireless Tribe, 3rd Dread Return or extra land is ever worth cutting Narcomoeba for.

Also, for people running the 4/3 split of Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe in Bloodghast Dredge, I think a 3/4 split may be superior because Tireless Tribe is more important vs Tarmogoyf and Zoo etc. and Ichorid can munch on Bloodghasts regardless.

I would never cut Moeba for the same reason, unless in g2 if I desperately need to free a slot for sb stuff. Even than I cannot imagine to take out more than two Moebas.

Breathweapon, could you share your most recent list, please? :smile: :smile:

sunshine

01-15-2010, 08:45 AM

Aleksandr

01-15-2010, 08:49 AM

You're all missing something very important: Narcomoeba is the most castable of our 2CC spells - 1U is much easier to come by than BB (unless your list completely foresakes both Oboro and Coliseum for Salvages). Being able to play the creatures in our opening hand is huge as it takes some of the pressure off our actual dredgeing. This deck will serve up some aggro heavy hands, and to be honest a recuring Thug that returns Narco to the top of your library every turn is pretty savage with even one bridge in the yard.

Yeah, you're right! I think that this fact is so obvious, that everybody forget to mention it... including myself.

:smile:

You're all missing something very important: Narcomoeba is the most castable of our 2CC spells - 1U is much easier to come by than BB (unless your list completely foresakes both Oboro and Coliseum for Salvages). Being able to play the creatures in our opening hand is huge as it takes some of the pressure off our actual dredgeing. This deck will serve up some aggro heavy hands, and to be honest a recuring Thug that returns Narco to the top of your library every turn is pretty savage with even one bridge in the yard.

So you play Gargadon? I never tried this tech, maybe it is great, who can tell... but I never felt like I wanna waste sb slots on him... :really:

4eak

01-15-2010, 09:31 AM

I've tested both ways, and I'm still on the fence for this matter. For the vast majority of players/decks, I wouldn't be removing Narcos. There are possible exceptions though. I consider Narcos optional if you build dredge to be very centered around Bloodghast (not that these decks couldn't play Narco either, but rather they have the option to not play them). If you aren't playing Bloodghast, then this obviously isn't an issue.

I can point you to plenty of games where Narco's flying, ease of triggering, and particularly its explosiveness leads to a win. I think I can also point to plenty of games where those 4 slots could have improved other necessary aspects of consistency which were lacking and have cost me games. (Unfortunately, that means I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with some of you.)

I wouldn't remove Narco lightly though (it is very potent). Narco is a much more balanced "explosive" card than something like LED (just an example) or Breakthrough, and remains a strong card in many more situations, whether they call for explosive plays or slower ones. Besides hardcasting it, I think Thug/Dredging it, making good use of the flying ability, pitching to FoW, counting it in our GGT-DRs, all add up, but I also think these are usually cornercases and not very common additions to game-winning flexibility. The run down, besides the overall 1-time usage (for which there are several alternatives), Narco links together my draw spells->dredging and Dread return/Bridge abuse in a single turn. I justify Narco because it helps me win very quickly, not because I believe it adds much to the consistency and flexibility of the deck.

I do have to ask myself though, "Do I need to win sooner?". For people who see a ton of Storm and Prison, this is easy. For 5-color ranged Fishy/Zooish metagames, I don't think this is such an easy question. I must admit there are costs for attaining some level of explosiveness, payment which could have gone towards other functions and characteristics. I think there are options available to the BG-Dredge builds which spend those slots on improving resilience and consistency, but it results in a slower build.

I think most players of Dredge (even LEDless) are not comfortable with giving up very much explosiveness. There is greater degree of certainty to your strategy and an element of "fun" when you trounce your opponent. It is easy to quip, "hey, we are combo, we either win big or we don't". Truly, when I build and play for explosiveness, there is less thought required; the correct play is more obvious (which I appreciate after many hours of magic). Why make it more complicated, and risk making more mistakes, if the benefits are difficult to realize and only marginally better? The sacrifices of explosiveness, and a concentration on consistency, flexibility, resilience, and performance in games 2 and 3 are not as visible, which makes that line of reasoning easier to dismiss (I think I've seen a few LEDredge players make similar assumptions about LEDless in the past).

It is possible that we have diverging thoughts on LEDless Dredge. On one hand, I see good arguments for maintaining the combo-esque nature of the deck, maintaining that speed and "oops, I win" factor, while also giving us a striker's chance (a small one, imho) to one-hit KO our nightmare matches (Stax, ANT, etc.). Narco has an obvious permanent home in this strategy. If you're: against DDD, using DR-Targets in the main, maintaining, very low dredger counts, etc., then you probably fall into this strategy.

On the other hand, I think there might be another strong strategy, which is to continue down the path of consistency/flexibility. This includes no DR-targets in the main, trying different approaches to DDDing, changing the mana-base to abuse BG, and perhaps even cutting cards like Narco. Such a strategy isn't necessarily going to exclude Narco, but it reasonably could. Yes, it would weaken certain matchups, just as it would strengthen others. The difference may be an overall net gain in some metagames. I think few see this as a reasonable path, but I think few players are very experienced with designing for and playing with a Dredge deck which concentrates so heavily upon slow-rolling.

We also might ask ourselves, why not keep them all? After all, Narco is an awesome card. We just don't have a lot of room, and we need to be concerned with the correct ratio of 'recursive' (cheated) creatures to the other functions in the deck to play. This is alot:

4x Bloodghast
4x Narco
4x Ichorid

I imagine some builds will try find a ratio which forces them to cut a few from this list.

peace,
4eak

johanessen

01-15-2010, 10:39 AM

4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Dakmor Salvage

4 Breakthrough
3 Carfeful Study
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe

3 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

You can do small changes like -1 Dakmor Salvage +1 Ichorid, -1 Iona +1 Eternal Witness, etc.

BreathWeapon

01-15-2010, 12:02 PM

Sure,

MD

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Tireless Tribe
3 Putrid Imp

4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study

4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba

2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cabal Therapy

4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass

SB

4 Unmask
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Oboro, Palace in the Cloud
2 Meta Slots

That's baseline for Bloodghast Dredge IMO, no retarded DR targets (except the Dakmor/Witness swap) and you've got room for everything you'd need.

sunshine

01-15-2010, 02:24 PM

So you play Gargadon? I never tried this tech, maybe it is great, who can tell... but I never felt like I wanna waste sb slots on him... :really:

Heh, no I don't play Gargadon - I just attack, block, sac to flashback, and build of up tokens :cool:.

frogboy

01-15-2010, 02:49 PM

Also, for people running the 4/3 split of Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe in Bloodghast Dredge, I think a 3/4 split may be superior because Tireless Tribe is more important vs Tarmogoyf and Zoo etc. and Ichorid can munch on Bloodghasts regardless.

This. Whenever I draw Tireless Tribe and my opponent is trying to attack me I feel like it's very hard to lose.

How good is Bloodghast when you don't draw Undiscovered Paradise? It seems miserable. What about adding an extra land or two and playing Life from the Loam instead?

Anusien

01-15-2010, 02:50 PM

If you actually make 5 land drops in a row, I'm pretty sure casting Trolls is unbeatable.

Raptor

01-15-2010, 04:17 PM

bum_man

01-15-2010, 10:52 PM

@Narcomoeba: I personally don't see myself playing the deck without 4 narcomoebas. Narcs are great because they are free creatures that come into play without you having to play a land or sac a creature or anything. If you're deck focuses on returning a FKZ and winning with a token rush, the fact that narc is free is VERY important because by being free it speeds up your win for a whole turn, compared to ghast where you have to make a land drop, much worse, ichorid where you need to feed it on its upkeep. If you play the deck like a combo deck aiming to return up a sage or FKZ to win then, narc>ghast>ichorid. If you play it a straight aggro deck, ichorid>ghast>narc. The fact that narcomoeba doesn't recur is not important since its role in the deck is just a speed buff.

@Frogboy: Assuming you play the deck like a combo deck, this doesn't really matter since playing any land combined with dredging can already net you a combination of any 3 creatures that can fuel you to a win. Post-board this can be a factor but more often than not you won't need to recur bloodghasts often because they rarely die or get blocked, along with ichorids, ichorids are the ones that are always blocked. Generally, I use bloodghasts much like narcs, a speed buff helping me return a win, a turn or so earlier. Even with Paradise I doubt that you'd be able to recur using it a whole lot especially with wasteland around; this is the same reason why I think the 2 Dakmor Salvage is absolutely important in any dredge deck that plays bloodghasts.

Dark Ritual

01-16-2010, 02:20 AM

The problem with cutting PImps for tireless tribe is this...if you run dakmor salvage, you can hardcast PImp with the salvage sure this is slow but if they wasteland it you can simply dredge 2 the next turn and replay it, basically timewalking your opponent and gaining CA.

Narc is essential to the deck's function; getting it into play may be game defining since ichorid takes a turn to get online at minimum and you don't always have the land for ghast. Being able to therapy your opponent off a narc is very strong especially if you have 2 bridges or even 1 bridge because then you can potentially get a lot of cards out of their hand or at least 1 if you miss the first time the second time you can get whatever card out of their hand that is the most troublesome to your gameplan. This for sure matters against combo especially belcher where they can just win on the spot if you don't therapy them naming burning wish, EtW, charbelcher...then it's a tossup you will likely lose.

I would board in FoW against combo and unmask perhaps. FoW might be better for the surprise factor since they will probably board out silence/chant effects most likely or maybe not. Depends on their build and how they play the deck. But therapy can wreck them as well as unmask or FoW. Or if you have a really fast hand that they can't stop so they can't AN to draw 15 cards.

Cutting narcomoeba's is usually wrong but can be justified depending on what deck you're facing.

I really like tribe and wish it were black; then it would be strictly better in the aggro matchup but worse against decks packing moat since it couldn't fly. Although if your meta is all aggro and no control I would likely play more tribes because of how good it is against them.

If you ran 15 land, you MIGHT be able to support loam. It's really risky though; it could potentially be a darkblast with no effect/a dredge 3 if you don't get 2 land drops, one of which has to tap for green, it's poor.

Being able to hardcast GGT's seems to be GG's unless your GY is devoid of any creatures or a bulk of creatures having 5 creatures in the yard when it enters play is meaningless since goyf can potentially walk right over it. And crypt/relic isn't really helping our case with GGT being DRed since facing more than one relic effect seems to make our GGT's very tiny when they enter play unless they crypted only noncreature cards which seems unlikely if they pilot their deck correctly.

Has anyone ever thought of using stifle as anti hate/FoW fodder in the SB? Seems solid against EE, deed, knight of the reliquary, obviously crypt and relic...and it can be cast off of any land in the deck sans dakmor salvage. Although I guess the problem is requiring it to be in your opening hand and not being able to dredge into it.

BreathWeapon

01-16-2010, 02:11 PM

This. Whenever I draw Tireless Tribe and my opponent is trying to attack me I feel like it's very hard to lose.

How good is Bloodghast when you don't draw Undiscovered Paradise? It seems miserable. What about adding an extra land or two and playing Life from the Loam instead?

Life from the Loam is bad, if you're going to add lands, then you're going to add a 2nd Dakmor Salvage to recur Bloodghast(s) more consistently and cast Putrid Imps. Bloodghast is fine with or with out Undiscovered Paradise, in DDD 1 land turns Bloodghast(s) into 1 or more Narcomoebas, and the Dakmor Salvage is a 1 shot multiple Narcomoeba activation in the mid/late game. If and when I need to emphasize Bloodghast, mainly when I SB out Narcomoeba, I SB in Oboro and the recursion is much, much more reliable.

Also, I'm running 4 Tireless Tribe and 3 Putrid Imp 100% now, Ichorid recursion was unaffected and Dakmor Salvage never resolved Putrid Imp. Tribe is boss, telling Tarmogoyf to fuck off is essential and the whole "Moat argument" eats it to Ray of Revelation.

I'm 100% ok with 8 rainbow lands, all rainbow lands do is cast Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe, which are good but non-essential components of Dredge, because their effect can be replaced by DDD.

AngryTroll

01-16-2010, 02:14 PM

I'm 100% ok with 8 rainbow lands, all rainbow lands do is cast Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe, which are good but non-essential components of Dredge, because their effect can be replaced by DDD.

Ancient Grude is one of the best cards in the sideboard. Ray of Revelation and possibly Firestorm are also strong points in favor of a few extra rainbow lands. If you're running Undiscovered Paradise, you don't have to run Tarnished Citadel for those last few lands; to me, that's an excellent argument for eleven or twelve rainbow lands and then the Coliseums.

I've been running a manabase of 4 City, 4 Mine, 3 Citadel, 4 Coliseum in the Ichorid version (Frogboy's list). The Citadels are the weakest link, but I wouldn't cut them. The Bloodghast/Ichorid/Narcomoeba lists look very interesting, at least partly because of the manabase it offers.

BreathWeapon

01-16-2010, 02:28 PM

What are you cutting for +3 lands, because I doubt the MD cuts are worth the SB options?

frogboy

01-16-2010, 04:12 PM

I'm 100% ok with 8 rainbow lands, all rainbow lands do is cast Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe, which are good but non-essential components of Dredge, because their effect can be replaced by DDD.

They also activate Cephalid Coliseum. Further, DDD is a pretty slow plan against an aggressive Zoo draw; if they open on Nacatl plus another guy and you don't flip Narcomoeba on your first dredge (and especially by your second) you might just accidentally lose the game. DDD also makes your Breakthroughs weaker.

AngryTroll

01-16-2010, 06:14 PM

What are you cutting for +3 lands, because I doubt the MD cuts are worth the SB options?

Here's (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31630) the list I'm running, but I go -1 Thug (3 total) +1 Careful Study (4 total). No extra Dread Return targets, a full set of Studies and Breakthroughs. The fourth Ichorid is in the board to help power through hate.

At the SCG: Dallas event, I ran a board of:
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Flamekin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Ichorid

4 Chain and 3 Ray was excessive; there's never room to board in that many cards, anyways. I'll probably make room for a pair of Thoughtseizes or Forces to help combat Ravenous Trap.

I like the Bloodghast version, but how often does Paradise hamper turn two Breakthrough for two mana or activating Cephalid Coliseum? I use Breakthrough for one card a lot more often than I initially thought I would to hold onto a second Coliseum, second Breakthrough, a Careful Study, or Chain of Vapor.

Where does the Bloodghast version compare to the LED and Tribe versions in consistency and explosiveness?

linux-ll-

01-16-2010, 06:33 PM

Sry but what does DDD mean?

NecroYawgmoth

01-16-2010, 06:44 PM

...for the 1000th time in this thread -.-

Draw Discard Dredge

...you draw a card, then discard a card (because your handsize is 8), then dredge the next turn...

YawG

BreathWeapon

01-16-2010, 06:59 PM

Here's (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31630) the list I'm running, but I go -1 Thug (3 total) +1 Careful Study (4 total). No extra Dread Return targets, a full set of Studies and Breakthroughs. The fourth Ichorid is in the board to help power through hate.

At the SCG: Dallas event, I ran a board of:
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Flamekin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Ichorid

4 Chain and 3 Ray was excessive; there's never room to board in that many cards, anyways. I'll probably make room for a pair of Thoughtseizes or Forces to help combat Ravenous Trap.

I like the Bloodghast version, but how often does Paradise hamper turn two Breakthrough for two mana or activating Cephalid Coliseum? I use Breakthrough for one card a lot more often than I initially thought I would to hold onto a second Coliseum, second Breakthrough, a Careful Study, or Chain of Vapor.

Where does the Bloodghast version compare to the LED and Tribe versions in consistency and explosiveness?

Undiscovered Paradise has some anti-synergy with Cephalid Coliseum, but generally it's not "game breaking" because resolving Cephalid Coliseum on T3 is about as good as resolving it on T2 vs Zoo.

The BG version is between the LED version and the Tribe version in explosiveness, and I haven't noticed a significant loss in consistency when compared with the Tribe Version. Generally, where the BG version shines is post-board, because it just churns thru' Crypt like a champ.

@Frogboy

Yeah, I meant specifically all rainbow colored lands do is play Pimp and Tribe, of course the density of lands is relevant for playing Breakthrough and Careful Study. Like I said, something has to give, and in a deck that doesn't need a land drop to win I'd rather that be lands.

jimirynk

01-17-2010, 02:57 AM

jimirynk, I was wondering, what is your sideboard plan vs ANT.
You side in your 4x Duress/unmask, but what do you side out?
Siding out breakthrough there is just wrong.
Would siding out 2x tireless tribe, 1x ichorid and 1x golgari thug be a good play ?

If you playing unmask its -4 tireless tribe +4 unmask, don't cut black cards when boarding in unmask.

Though seize opens you to broader sb options but I never side out dredgers/ichorids g2/3 you have to have as much cards to help you recover after a crypt/relic/trap.

bum_man

01-17-2010, 05:03 AM

Here's (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31630)
I like the Bloodghast version, but how often does Paradise hamper turn two Breakthrough for two mana or activating Cephalid Coliseum? I use Breakthrough for one card a lot more often than I initially thought I would to hold onto a second Coliseum, second Breakthrough, a Careful Study, or Chain of Vapor.
In my experience, not a lot really. It depends on what match-up you are against whether you may choose to play protecting a Coliseum or Paradise. But more often than not, I play my Paradise as the 2nd land when activating a breakthrough leaving one card in hand. This usually happens in game 1s where recurring bloodghasts are not that much an important factor. Often, you notice, that you could've gone off a turn earlier, this is something you encounter game 1s most of the time, so, more often than not, this won't be significant in the game.

Where does the Bloodghast version compare to the LED and Tribe versions in consistency and explosiveness?
I have tried piloting both the bloodghast and tribe versions (I don't really get this since my ghast list also has tribes @_@). The consistency is actually fairly the same. Game 1s both decks could still win at fairly the same speed. In terms of consistency, game 2s make all the difference. bloodghasts make the deck's aggro game plan even more solid especially when you give-up the speed of breakthrough against blue. Having recurrable creatures at your disposal, you can also return a target more consistently (big factor against zoo and goblins).
In explosiveness, bloodghasts make the deck better. They are 3-4 more creatures that you can use to return into a very favorable position in the match. In most cases, they speed-up the kill for almost a turn. Even without the combo, dredging into ghasts help you get the win faster. Countless times, I've won out of nowhere when my ghasts give me the last 2-6 damage that I needed to win then, rather than the following turn. They significantly increase the decks resilience, by adding explosiveness in terms of swaying the match in your favor.

One of the most glaring differences you could notice is the mulligans. Hands become more brutal with bloodghasts, but I think this isn't a very common occurrence since the deck innately is mulligans worse than most decks.

AngryTroll

01-17-2010, 01:18 PM

I have tried piloting both the bloodghast and tribe versions (I don't really get this since my ghast list also has tribes @_@).

Absolutely, there's no way I'd run Ghasts without Tribes. I meant on a spectrum between the more explosive LEDredge and the more consistent LED-less (Tribe) Dredge.

Is Bloodghast (in addition to Ichorid and Moeba) better in an LEDredge build, or a Tribe build? I have lots of questions about Ghast, but very few answers.

linux-ll-

01-17-2010, 06:14 PM

First of all I never played Dredge on a tournament thus I´m unexperienced.

I want to try this list:

// Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
3 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
3 Narcomoeba

// Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return

// Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Unmask
2 Firestorm
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation

My intention: stability over speed.

Possible changing : -Breakthrough, -Tireless Tribe, -Dakmore Salvage + 3 Careful Study
I´m not a big fan of Study, in nearly every situation (I grant you that there were not many:tongue: ) I would prefer a permanent Discard Outlet. I would play 4 Tireless Tribe, but I´m not sure that the manabase can handle this.

Any thoughts?

fyrisen

01-17-2010, 06:44 PM

My intention: stability over speed.

Possible changing : -Breakthrough, -Tireless Tribe, -Dakmore Salvage + 3 Careful Study
I´m not a big fan of Study, in nearly every situation (I grant you that there were not many:tongue: ) I would prefer a permanent Discard Outlet. I would play 4 Tireless Tribe, but I´m not sure that the manabase can handle this.

Any thoughts?

You shoul'd cut one Ioona for another Thug and change Sphinx to Cheplaid Sage. Because you play four Unmask in the sideboard there for you need additional cards to remove, and the sage is better with Ghast and Dakmor Salvage.

Edit: For the sideboard -1 Grudge and -1 Ray, and +2 Firestorm if your meta is filled up with Zoo or aggro decks for that matter.

BreathWeapon

01-17-2010, 08:21 PM

Absolutely, there's no way I'd run Ghasts without Tribes. I meant on a spectrum between the more explosive LEDredge and the more consistent LED-less (Tribe) Dredge.

Is Bloodghast (in addition to Ichorid and Moeba) better in an LEDredge build, or a Tribe build? I have lots of questions about Ghast, but very few answers.

In theory, Bloodghast is the same in LED Dredge as it is in LEDless Dredge, because Bloodghast matters the most game 2 and thus LED Dredge and LEDless Dredge are more or less the same because LED Dredge has boarded out its LEDs for Tribes at that point.

Raptor

01-17-2010, 11:51 PM

I've been to a tournament today. 6 rounds, it didn't went that well.

After a powerful start of 3-0 I scrub out doing 3-3. If I did 4-2, I would have pass to top 8 because I had good tiebreakers. I had lots of bad dredges and lots of bad match ups. Here is how it went :

1st Round : 43 lands deck.
G1 :I just hoped that I could explode. I put Pimp, start dredging and he puts a tabernacle. I manage to reaniate 2 ichorids, and do dreadreturn for 21 damage.

G2: He puts an early tabernacle while I have tireless tribe... He wastes my land so I have none. He has 2 exploration, life from the loam and a tabernacle, a mishra it doesn't look good. At upkeep he always doesn't pay for my his mishra to remove my bridges. I manage to start a beat down with ichorid. He has two maze of ith and I only have 3 ichorids. So I wait a bit and he is at 5 life. He decides to retrace for a 5/5 flying but no more mana for mishra. I dredge into Narco + bridge. I sac Narco, Ichorid, Ichorid for flamekin so I attack with 3 tokens, 1 flamekin and 1 ichorid FTW.

2nd Round : Merfolk
G1 : I know that this guy doesn't have a lot of experience in Legacy, so I'm confident even though it's a bad MU. Game 1, T1 PIMP get countered, Turn 2 tribe get countered, and finally at my turn 4 careful study passes, and I do a breakthrough after it and I won.

G2 : He gets 2 important counters, relic and another relic got me.

G3: He put T2 relic with only 1 mana, I dredge into ancient grudge and kill it. In my first 20 cards I got 4 Narco, 2 Grudges, 3 Bridges. First time in like 100 games that I dredge like a pro.

3rd Round : RB Goblins
G1 I have tireless tribe and stall the whole board, I dredge and he removes my bridges with goblins warring (or however we write it:P). I dredge into some narco and DR IONA naming red FTW.

G2 : I put Pimp I think and win again with DR IONA.

4th Round : Merfolk, a good friend of mine
G1 : It sucks playing agaisnt a team mate, especially when there is only 2 people in your team, including yourself... I know that I can't win this one, he is playing 2 Jitte MD and 2 echoing truth MD. Game 1 I therapy his jitte, he puts cursecatcher and has daze + force + wasteland. I scoop.

G2 : I manage to put PIMP in play. He then has jitte. I have 6 tokens + narco so I name echoing in truth with Cabal, he reveals 3 merfolk sovereigns, I therapy them. It's pretty funny. He top deck echoing truth 2 turns later and seal the game with a lord, cursecatcher, jitte and silvergil adept.

5th round : BGW NO the rock style deck
1st : I mull to 5, I have a weak hand. He races me with Hierarch, 2x quasali and tarmogoyf.
2nd round : I put Pimp and start doing some damage, he decides to extirpate my cabal therapy because I had 3 in my yard. He plays Natural order on progenitals I get him down to low life he attacks me for 10, 1 more attack and I'm dead but he is facing letal with Ichorid next turn. He topdeck extirpate and removes my ichorid.... That hurts.

6th round : RB Goblins with Pierre-Marc (Enigma on the source)
1st : A freaking weird game I mull to 4 he mulls to 5. I have Gemstone, Careful study, Golgari thug and something else. I find a land and therapy. The next turn I dredged for 4, dredged a narco, PIMP and a therapy. I put Golgari thug, sac narco for therapy, sac thug for therapy, return PIMP on the top. Next turn I draw pimp and after I overwhelm him with PIMP, Narco and ichorid beatdown.

2nd : Mull to 6, put tireless tribe and he has Crypt. I don't find anything decent in my dredge and he removes my yard and my dredgers. I'm now in top deck mode and see my whole playset of city of brass.

3rd : Here was my biggest mistake of the tournament, and maybe the only one. Bad mulliganing decision. I decide for some reason to keep a hand of 6 cards with : Therapy, City of brass, Cephalid coliseum, firestorm, firestorm, Ichorid. He mulligans to four. I open with therapy on crypt. He reveals me Wasteland, rishadan port, land, Earwig Squad. He wastes, I draw real junk for some turn. He then puts Frogtosser Banneret and next turn he uses Earwig Squad. It was game. He's a really nice opponent, but the last game was really lame.

And here was my sideboard :
1xCareful Study
3xFirestorm
1xChain of Vapor
4xGrudge
1xAncestor's chosen
4xUnmask
1xSadistic Hypnotist

Hope you liked the report.

I'm considering doing -1 Grudge and removing firestorms.

AcidFiend

01-18-2010, 12:05 AM

Raptor

01-18-2010, 12:21 AM

Raptor - nice report, sucks you kept that last hand. The problem I have with this deck is how/what to SB out. I've never used Firestorms but obviously you weren't happy with them - why not and what will you change them for that you can use?

I never had any problems g2/g3 with sideboard.
I always board in the good cards and I never had a hate that was unexpected of my part. If you want some more help on how to SB, I'm prettysure I could give you decent advices and some players here could as well.

-4 Breakthrough, +1 Study, +3 Grudge what was I did most of the time. Then I often SB out 2 Tribes + Golgari thug for 3 firestorms but the only times that I've seen the firestorms, I was dead anyway and they were not that good. Throwing your hand to run into hate is not fun, nor is not having the mana for it.
I might probally run Llawan, Cephalid Empress, in one of the slot.
THe last time I sided in chain of vapor was months ago, so they could probally go.

BEcause of my metagame, I might do to my sideboard :
-3x Firestorm
-1x Chain of vapor
-1x Ancient Grudge
+1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
+2x Ray of Revelation
+2x Y tech vs aggro that I don't know yet :(

Aleksandr

01-18-2010, 09:15 AM

+2x Y tech vs aggro that I don't know yet :(

Blazing Archon? Another Ancestor's Chosen?

Nice report, btw.

Raptor

01-18-2010, 09:28 AM

Blazing Archon? Another Ancestor's Chosen?

Nice report, btw.

The problem is that I've failed to DR anything versus these deck.
Versus merfolk, I didn't have the time to dredge into something relevant.
Versus goblins, Earwig Squad got my DR out if I was soon able to dread return or my DR targets.

Although, Blazing archon is definitly something that I will try.

Aleksandr

01-18-2010, 09:46 AM

The problem is that I've failed to DR anything versus these deck.
Versus merfolk, I didn't have the time to dredge into something relevant.
Versus goblins, Earwig Squad got my DR out if I was soon able to dread return or my DR targets.

Although, Blazing archon is definitly something that I will try.

Problem with Archon is that he always eats Swords, Echoing Truth, PoE, doulbe burn, etc.
Otoh: Truth@Archon = noTruth@Zombies.

But one they get rid of him, they can start to press again, so maybe the Chosen is better as he (most of the time) makes his job once even if he leaves battlefield.

Eksem

01-18-2010, 10:02 AM

I used Firestorm in a Merfolk/Gobbo-field last week, and I was very happy with it all day, doing everything from noncounterable discard to sweeping to finishing my opponent off. I was lucky to have it in hand a lot perhaps, but strange to see someone having the exact opposite results from the same card in a similar field.

AcidFiend

01-18-2010, 06:16 PM

I never had any problems g2/g3 with sideboard.
I always board in the good cards and I never had a hate that was unexpected of my part. If you want some more help on how to SB, I'm prettysure I could give you decent advices and some players here could as well.

Well this thread is pretty divided in that some board out all breakthroughs, while others swear to keep them in for explosiveness. The other point of contention is when to bring in new DR targets, and when to drop the DR's + targets altogether. This probably hinges a lot on whether its game 2 or 3.

Anti-Dredge hate is so diverse with tormods, relic, trap, creatures-that-sacrifice, Gaddock Teeg, you risk both boarding in the wrong thing and/or diluting your deck so much you just dredge into junk. I know this was the reason ages ago some lists played Gargadon; to increase your threats as opposed to trying to out-tech the tech.

All this makes for one of the more complicated Legacy decks to board for IMO.

Can anyone give me feedback on the below:

ANT: +4 Unmask, - 3 Tireless Tribe, -1 Eternal Witness
Merfolk: +3 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge, -4 Breakthrough, -1 FKZ, -1 DR
Goblins: +3 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge, +1 Ancestor's Chosen, -4 Breakthrough, -1 FKZ, -1 Witness, -1 DR
Aggro Loam: I have no idea because half the lists run Leyline and the other half don't.

Raptor

01-18-2010, 06:52 PM

Well this thread is pretty divided in that some board out all breakthroughs, while others swear to keep them in for explosiveness. The other point of contention is when to bring in new DR targets, and when to drop the DR's + targets altogether. This probably hinges a lot on whether its game 2 or 3.

Anti-Dredge hate is so diverse with tormods, relic, trap, creatures-that-sacrifice, Gaddock Teeg, you risk both boarding in the wrong thing and/or diluting your deck so much you just dredge into junk. I know this was the reason ages ago some lists played Gargadon; to increase your threats as opposed to trying to out-tech the tech.

All this makes for one of the more complicated Legacy decks to board for IMO.

Can anyone give me feedback on the below:

ANT: +4 Unmask, - 3 Tireless Tribe, -1 Eternal Witness
Merfolk: +3 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge, -4 Breakthrough, -1 FKZ, -1 DR
Goblins: +3 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge, +1 Ancestor's Chosen, -4 Breakthrough, -1 FKZ, -1 Witness, -1 DR
Aggro Loam: I have no idea because half the lists run Leyline and the other half don't.

Are there any reason you play witness over the sphinx or Iona, they both seems better then witness in a non LED list.

Maindeck I run FKZ + Iona, so it's pretty rare that I side out DR because I want Iona online, it's almost an autoscoop vs goblins and merfolk.

I might have not like firestorm yesterday because I could never cast them in time. I played agaisnt 6 decks out of the 6 playing wasteland, so it was really hard casting it. Plus, you need to be careful when throwing your hand to not be steamrolled by a relic.

AcidFiend

01-18-2010, 08:23 PM

I would have thought Merfolk & Goblins would be affected by Iona to a lesser extent than other decks. I know it would slow them down, but at least they have Lackey (if it was in play) & Vial to get around it.

How easy is it to cast DR in the face of graveyard hate? Assume they have a crypt or relic. You might be able to trigger a dredge, flipping a Grudge and blowing their hate. Next you need to dredge into DR + Iona, cast a Cabal Therapy or 2 (against Merfolk, else they counter DR), and still have three creatures in play. Getting around Cursecatcher, Wasteland, Daze, Spell Pierce, Echoing Truth (they can bounce dudes in response to you flipping DR), FoW seems like an uphill battle just to make sure they don't cast further counters. Board out DR and the only spells you'll actually 'cast' are Cabal & Grudge.

Maybe this is a case of testing the matchup more. If you've cast DR post-board against Merfolk a good number of times, please give me tips hehe :)

Else I think board I'll try boarding out the DR/BT package, adding Grudge & Firestorm. You can use Firestorm as an uncounterable discard of one/two dredges/grudge; I wasn't suggesting you 'throw your hand'.

Also FYI I was testing Witness because of certain synergies I felt it'd be a better partner to FKZ. If you have a land in play it can net you more cards than Sphinx (return Coliseum/Breakthrough), else return a land to cast anything in hand / recur Bloodghasts. My goal was to cast a lethal FKZ asap, and I felt Witness would allow this more often than Iona. If this proves sub-par, I'd probably go with the controlling Hypnotist & Iona combination.

Raptor

01-18-2010, 09:04 PM

The problem with firestorm is almost the same as DR, but on top of it you need lands to cast it and are more vunerable to cursecatcher wasteland and daze. You can't really cast it threw hate and it's pretty vunerable to it.

Echoing Truth (they can bounce dudes in response to you flipping DR)

Hmmm, they can't cast it in responce to you flipping DR, except if Narco's trigger is on the stack. I just want to be sure on the rule, do you pass priority after the draw, or do you go to main phase without letting your opponent having priority ?

Also, I have another important ruling question. If I have tribe in play and I play breakthrough. I then ask my opponent if it passes, he says that it passes. Do I have the right to discard a dredger, or I should have done before asking him if it passes?

AcidFiend

01-18-2010, 09:11 PM

The problem with firestorm is almost the same as DR, but on top of it you need lands to cast it and are more vunerable to cursecatcher wasteland and daze. You can't really cast it threw hate and it's pretty vunerable to it.

Discarding cards is part of Firestorms cost; the whole point is an unpreventable discard outlet. Whether or not it resolves and kills dudes is a secondary concern.

I'd like to hear someone else answer the other two rules questions you had, tho I believe you can still discard to Tribe before Breakthrough resolves.

SlopeeJ

01-18-2010, 09:35 PM

I just want to be sure on the rule, do you pass priority after the draw, or do you go to main phase without letting your opponent having priority ?

you pass priority after your draw (and after each phase)

Raptor

01-18-2010, 10:16 PM

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=420568

I just asked some questions that could be some use for some people.
I hope that it can help you.

bum_man

01-18-2010, 10:55 PM

Is Bloodghast (in addition to Ichorid and Moeba) better in an LEDredge build, or a Tribe build? I have lots of questions about Ghast, but very few answers.
I haven't played LED Dredge but I don't think they can support bloodghasts. LED Dredge imo, don't have enough slots to play ghasts along ichorids and moebas. I've seen Ghasts in place of Ichorids in a few builds though. LED Dredge also has very low land count to consistently recur bloodghasts imo. Bloodghasts could possibly better than LED Dredge compared to ichorids since ghasts are better combo enablers, post-board games would be harder though since the aggro game is not that solid without ichorids. In any case, LED comboes are not completely taken out but only diluted nowadays especially against non-blue, bloodghast could work then, but its not an optimal choice compared to ichorids imho.
I don't play LEDs so I don't have an idea, but considering the deck design, Bloodghasts are definitely better in Non-LED builds. Non-LED deck design are better suited to use and abuse bloodghasts great potential.

The problem is that I've failed to DR anything versus these deck.
Versus merfolk, I didn't have the time to dredge into something relevant.
Versus goblins, Earwig Squad got my DR out if I was soon able to dread return or my DR targets.
Vs. Merfolk: I usually go 4 Grudge, 2 firestorms, and 1 Sadistic Hypnotist, for 3 breakthrough, 1 DR, 2 of my targets, and 1 tribe. Haven't tested this match-up for a long time so I don't really know how it is, back then, I remember my merfolk match-ups always going terrible by either a bad dredge or a well-timed counter on his part.
Vs. Gobs: Grudge and Chosen are enough. Haven't had trouble with gobs since you are faster than them even post-board. I just blow-up hate, darkblast fanatics, therapy away relevant cards like traps and combo-out before they could get me in the danger zone.

Well this thread is pretty divided in that some board out all breakthroughs, while others swear to keep them in for explosiveness. The other point of contention is when to bring in new DR targets, and when to drop the DR's + targets altogether. This probably hinges a lot on whether its game 2 or 3.
Breakthroughs only come out against blue, or that's what I do at least. I've never even thought about taking out DR + targets. I use targets like Chosen, Hypnotist, and Woodfall Primus against a number of match-ups and haven't experienced any trouble with them, the utility these targets add in place of FKZ's speed which you can't harness post-board in most cases are very crucial imo.

Anti-Dredge hate is so diverse with tormods, relic, trap, creatures-that-sacrifice, Gaddock Teeg, you risk both boarding in the wrong thing and/or diluting your deck so much you just dredge into junk. I know this was the reason ages ago some lists played Gargadon; to increase your threats as opposed to trying to out-tech the tech.

All this makes for one of the more complicated Legacy decks to board for IMO.
This is exactly why I always board-in chain of vapors game 2 against any opponent just to see what hate he/she brings in. The ability of be able to answer anything saves you the disappointment of knowing that you boarded-in the wrong answers.

Can anyone give me feedback on the below:

ANT: +4 Unmask, - 3 Tireless Tribe, -1 Eternal Witness
I think taking out a study is better than taking out Witness, since Witness also gives this deck speed by taking back breakthrough. I think Sage is better in this match-up since Witness often nets you a card but without mana to cast it in the same turn, this is crucial against a deck like ANT.

Merfolk: +3 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge, -4 Breakthrough, -1 FKZ, -1 DR
You only play 3 Grudge? I highly encourage finding room for the 4th.:smile: Otherwise, it looks just about right. I play 2 firestorms because I only have space for 2 in my sb though, do you think its relevant enough to net another slot?

Goblins: +3 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge, +1 Ancestor's Chosen, -4 Breakthrough, -1 FKZ, -1 Witness, -1 DR
I'd sb this a little differently: +4 Grudge, for 1 breakthrough, 1 study, 1 DR, 1 Sage. FKZ for Chosen. 2 tribes for 2 Firestorms.

Reasoning: i don't really want to lose the speed and explosiveness of the deck against a fast deck like Gobs so I wont take-out all my breakthroughs. Breakthrough also makes Chosen by dredging more cards into your gy. This is important especially without Sage. In most cases, I don't put-in firestorms anymore, but if i do, I'd usually take-out tribes, since you chose to either have a blocker for the threats or spot removal for the threat, either way, they could probably work.

Aggro Loam: I have no idea because half the lists run Leyline and the other half don't.
I board-in chains game 2 then change them as necessary.

@Iona: People usually say she's an auto-scoop but I beg to differ. Against gobs, they could easily race her given board position, or kill her with a weirding. merfolk usually have propaganda for her. In any case, both decks have vials. Unless you've supported Iona by taking out their vials I don't believe she won't be that game-breaking. Haven't tested her yet though, but do you guys think she could possibly be better than Chosen vs Gobs, or Hypnotist or Llawan vs merfolk?

Hmmm, they can't cast it in responce to you flipping DR, except if Narco's trigger is on the stack. I just want to be sure on the rule, do you pass priority after the draw, or do you go to main phase without letting your opponent having priority ?
After you draw the card, they get priority before going to your mainphase. In that case, the dredger would have already been in your hand.

Also, I have another important ruling question. If I have tribe in play and I play breakthrough. I then ask my opponent if it passes, he says that it passes. Do I have the right to discard a dredger, or I should have done before asking him if it passes?
When you pass priority to him/her and breakthrough is "good" you can no longer discard because no one gets priority until after breakthrough resolves. You should discard before playing the breakthrough, or discard before passing priority.

SlopeeJ

01-18-2010, 11:25 PM

Why would you sb in 2 of anything especially firestorm? What are the chances of you drawing 1 of the 2 cards in your main 7? That seems bad to me, imo it should be at least a 3 of or something you can dredge into such as ancient grudge. Firestorm is just awesome vs aggro decks and can be good vs counters.

Also why would you sb out the tribes vs goblins/merfolk, he blocks all day and stalls them to give you time? I would sb out pimps before I took out tribes, you still have ghasts, thugs, imps for ichorid. I usually sb down to 1-2 thugs and take out breakthroughs. If they don't run wasteland I cut a land down to 14 and sometimes take out an ichorid

@Iona: People usually say she's an auto-scoop but I beg to differ. Against gobs, they could easily race her given board position, or kill her with a weirding. merfolk usually have propaganda for her. In any case, both decks have vials. Unless you've supported Iona by taking out their vials I don't believe she won't be that game-breaking. Haven't tested her yet though, but do you guys think she could possibly be better than Chosen vs Gobs, or Hypnotist or Llawan vs merfolk?

I think angel of despair and ancestor's chosen are the only dread return targets needed, maybe a flame-kin vs fast decks/combo. You tie up 1 board spot for Llawan? I run the angel main to destroy permanents game 1 that can stop me from winning and if there isn't anything g2 Ancestor's chosen comes in. Why is hypnotist needed vs Merfolk, would it do it do anything different then chosen or is it just win more?

Raptor

01-18-2010, 11:34 PM

@Iona: People usually say she's an auto-scoop but I beg to differ. Against gobs, they could easily race her given board position, or kill her with a weirding. merfolk usually have propaganda for her. In any case, both decks have vials. Unless you've supported Iona by taking out their vials I don't believe she won't be that game-breaking. Haven't tested her yet though, but do you guys think she could possibly be better than Chosen vs Gobs, or Hypnotist or Llawan vs merfolk?

If you side in 3-4 grudge, you will most of the time have the grudge for the vial. So Iona is almost auto-scoop if it's returned early on and you have a token or two. I can't possibly talk if she's better then chosen because I run a split of 1/1 iona and ancestor's chosen. But remember that often only two attacks of iona are enough because you have ichorid and zombies to support her. Even if they manage to get around Iona, it's pretty hard for the to race you if they don't have board position because it stalls them so much.

I beleive Iona is way better then Hypnotist vs merfolk because it requires less support to work well and doesn't die to echoing truth. When you resolve a DR return vs merfolk, it's often late game because they are out of counters or hate, and they often won't have any hands, so hypnotist is not that good.

Llawan is better in lots of case, especially if they don't run echoing truth. The only problem with it is that it doesn't put as much pressure as Iona of them, but it stalls them like hell. I'll probally run Llawan in side so I would have it + Iona versus merfolk.

BreathWeapon

01-19-2010, 01:24 AM

Iona > Hypnotist, you're not resolving Hypnotist unless you've Mind Twisted them already with Cabal Therapy, in which case a 7/7 Flyer that counters their top decks is better than a weak body that picks of the stragglers in their hand.

AcidFiend

01-19-2010, 10:47 PM

I just saw this: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31745

That is almost the exact same maindeck I'm testing, though mine is:
-Firestorm, -1 DR, -2 Iona, +1 FKZ, +3 Tribe

Anyways reason I mention it is because of lack of City of Brass. What are peoples thoughts of City of Brass vs Gemstone Mine in Bloodghast builds? A few lists I've seen have CoB, and wondered if they had tested Gemstone and were unhappy with it.

So far I've only tested the other way; running City. While its great at what it does, you can take anywhere between 2-5 damage over a game (Coliseum doesn't help). While you're racing decks like Goblins & Zoo, that is something I'm keen to avoid.

NecroYawgmoth

01-19-2010, 11:54 PM

City of Brass VS Gemstone Mine is easy to explain I think...

We are Dredge...

We don't do much with our mana...

...sometimes we play an Breakthrough; Therapy or an PImp or use CC, rarely we play an BG or Dredgers... We don't need mana very often, and we are often DDDing.

A land that can give rainbow mana only 3 times is very often enough for us. We don't need a permanent mana source that pings us, IMO

so I play Gemstone Mines, because they don't ping (and with 14 lands there is a chance to see a second land)

YawG

AngryTroll

01-20-2010, 12:27 AM

City of Brass VS Gemstone Mine is easy to explain I think...
...
A land that can give rainbow mana only 3 times is very often enough for us. We don't need a permanent mana source that pings us, IMO

so I play Gemstone Mines, because they don't ping (and with 14 lands there is a chance to see a second land)

What list doesn't run both Cities and Mines? With a 15 land Bloodghast-less list, the manabase looks something like:
4 City
4 Mine
4 Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel
The Citadels is clearly the worst land.

With Bloodghasts, the manabase probably looks more like:
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Colisium
2 Dakmor Salvage
That's 16 land, which is probably about right, leaving some combination of six Cities and Mines. Feel free to run 4/2 or 3/3, but I don't think I'd run 4 Mine and 2 City.

Hardcasting Moebas, Thugs, Breakthrough for 1, Coliseum, Ancient Grudge, and Ray of Revelation all takes two lands in play. Although the damage from the Cities and Coliseums (and Citadels) adds up, you need to be able to cast the full set of 2cc cards, especially games two and three.

NecroYawgmoth

01-20-2010, 12:56 AM

yeah, you're right, the damage adds up... 1 reason more to play Mines instead of Cities >.> [I always feel like hardcasting Thugs, Moebas, Ghasts, and all kind of crap in game 2, and ping myself down to 10 life instead of winning, lol]

Why play Citadels, if we have Paradises, lol

...Paradises are even better, if your first Turn PImp gets FoWed for example

...for rainbowmana I would play Mines, then Cities, then Paradises and neverever Citadels... in non BG Builds

wtf 16 lands in a BG-Build... what do you want to cut in the main?
LED-Dredge plays 11 Lands (12 after bording without LEDs)
established BG-Lists play 13-14 (maybe15), but wtf do you want with 16 lands (my Berserk Stompy plays 15, and most of the time I have 2 lands >.>) - there is no need in having on mass lands on hand)

YawG

frogboy

01-20-2010, 12:57 AM

Citadel is actually the best land if it's your second land. I think City is not close the best land because it gives you more options going long.

NQN

01-20-2010, 10:16 AM

I often found myself loving that City has Infinite (meaning maximum 19) activations which is awesome to play around Daze effects or to go into the Thug->Narco "chain". Preboard it doesn´t matter but postboard I´d never miss at least 3 Citys.

jimirynk

01-20-2010, 04:17 PM

Blazing archon > Llawan vs. Merfolk..
I don't know why anyone would sleeve Llawan in their 75.

Blazing archon not only shuts down folk it flies over their heads.

Current sb:
4 Ancient grudge
4 Unmask
4 Leyline
3 CoV

@ bloodghast
I don't run the card because I feel that it doesn't improve your game2/3 as much as the mana base hurts all 3 of your game.
BUT if you feel that it does improve your boarded games has anyone thought about running them SB?

Just food for thought.

AcidFiend

01-20-2010, 04:43 PM

I heard Llawan was tech vs. Dream Halls :p

BreathWeapon

01-20-2010, 11:36 PM

@Bum

There's nothing better/worse about Bloodghast in LED Dredge compared to non-LED Dredge other than # of lands, IMO, Bloodghast may be better in LED Dredge than non-LED Dredge because the LED/DA chain Dredges into the Dakmor Salvages much, much faster.

Fatestitcher

01-21-2010, 12:23 AM

trinket painter has been employing this so-called "tech" for ages

Llawan

jimirynk

01-21-2010, 12:26 AM

trinket painter has been employing this so-called "tech" for ages

How is this post relevant?

Aleksandr

01-21-2010, 06:58 AM

Llawan dies to the same StP/Echoing Truth as Archon does, she is much more vulnerable to burn/Incinerator, makes nothing against Goblins or mirror, is overall weak in NO->Progenitus matchup, does not stop 20/20 tokens and finally: looks retarded.

I vote for Blazing Archon

jimirynk

01-21-2010, 11:20 PM

JonBarber

01-21-2010, 11:37 PM

Bojuka Bog

Land Common
Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield tapped.
{T}: Add {B} to your mana pool.
When Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield, exile target player's graveyard.

Good game sir..
No way to hate this card except

Encroach B
Sorcery
Look at target player's hand and choose a nonbasic land card from it. That player discards that card.

Which isn't playable..

Wow... Wizards really doesn't like dredge. First rav trap, now this! >_<

fyrisen

01-21-2010, 11:57 PM

Bojuka Bog

Land Common
Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield tapped.
{T}: Add {B} to your mana pool.
When Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield, exile target player's graveyard.

Good game sir..
No way to hate this card except

Encroach B
Sorcery
Look at target player's hand and choose a nonbasic land card from it. That player discards that card.

Which isn't playable..

What decks would pack it? Eva Green, The Rock, Depths junk? It's a Sorcery speed removal wich actually looks awesome at first glance. But actually ain't good at all. The fact that it comes into play tapped makes it uterlly useless.

Dark Ritual

01-22-2010, 12:12 AM

The problem with it is that it makes crucible and LftL that much more godly against us games 2 and 3. They play it, exile our yard, wasteland it, return it with crucible/LftL, rinse, repeat over and over until we cannot win and we need to hardcast stuff like stinkweed's, narc's, and other expensive cards for us to try to beat them down. And combined with knight of the reliquary translates into instant speed removal of our yard. It can also be boarded in against us in place of say basic swamps and if that happens they don't dilute one bit of their gameplan which can spell defeat for us if they land a turn 2 stalker or something with this card backing them up. It also doesn't help that all of our discard effects are useless against land cards unless we chose to run encroach which seems terribly janky.

The good news is, this card will not be widely played. Only in black decks will this see play most likely.

I like city of brass a lot games 2 and 3; being able to get more than 3 mana from 1 land is important to me in being able to cast grudge, PImp, tribe, or whatever. I don't want to have to choose between two cards which I want to cast because that can lead to some bad misplays and can lose you the game sometimes.

AcidFiend

01-22-2010, 12:20 AM

I was afraid of another hate-card being printed. Luckily I think the options people have now are better (crypt, relic, trap) and people can only fit so many anti-grave cards in the sideboard.

Illissius

01-22-2010, 12:31 AM

Supposedly Dredge doesn't actually care about sorcery speed hate because it can just go off on its own turn and ignore it. I don't play Dredge however so I couldn't say.

kicks_422

01-22-2010, 12:37 AM

As a supplementary hate card, I see it as a very powerful tool. However,on it's own, it could only do damage if you're slow rolling the dredge. Against decks that would use this land, that would most often be after they've popped a Crypt/Relic or after you've dug for the Leyline answer.

frogboy

01-22-2010, 01:26 AM

Supposedly Dredge doesn't actually care about sorcery speed hate because it can just go off on its own turn and ignore it. I don't play Dredge however so I couldn't say.

I do play Dredge. The Bog is terrible. Land, Tribe, go. Upkeep pump, dredge, pump, Breakthrough, dredge, you're dead. At no point does the Bog have relevant text.

jimirynk

01-22-2010, 01:44 AM

Crop rotation makes it an instant.

Aleksandr

01-22-2010, 01:44 AM

I do play Dredge. The Bog is terrible. Land, Tribe, go. Upkeep pump, dredge, pump, Breakthrough, dredge, you're dead. At no point does the Bog have relevant text.

Flavor text maybe...? :tongue:

Well, I am not very happy with another hate card, namely because Ichorid cannot stop it, but I agree that it is not that dangerous as e.g. Relic is.
Sure, there are decks that make a good use of this card (namely Crucible/Loam.dec as already mentioned), but I cannot imagine anyone playing this card pre-board (except for one-of as a KotR target, but then we have three to five turns before it hits - depends on who starts, number of Mox Diamonds - not to mention that the oponent must get his Knight first). Postboard it's all about sideboard (ehm... not a breakthrough, I know), so with a good sideboarding tactics and pilotage, we can still fight the usual hate and then go crazy once the time is right. I won countless games with "EOT Grudge" that left the opponent without instant answers to my combo. And that exactly is this card: non-instant hate. It's like Crypt that must be immediately popped. I'm ok with it.

Also Narcomoeba, PImp, Stinky, Ghast, occasional Ichorid and/or Zombie beatdown is good plan for G2/3 and I won games when my opponent started with double Leyline, thinking he cannot lose, but I just tapped my hobbies until he went from 20 to 0.

:really:

EDIT: Also - sideboards are not inflatable. And I laugh if people start to pack this crap in massive numbers. It will slow them down horribly without any effect, cause we can just combo during our turn as Frogboy wrote.
@ Crop Rotation argument: Well, I am ready to lose one game in milion played to Crop Rotation->Bog Land.

Pulp_Fiction

01-22-2010, 05:38 AM

Don't worry about the Bog, this card is highly irrelevant. The only deck that runs Crop Rotation that is any good is Eternal Garden, which is basically an auto-loss for Dredge anyway since ... there is no answer for Chasm Lock and Tabernacle. The Bog will not be played there. And any deck running the Knight to fetch it out is already a ridiculously strong matchup and they may run 1 Bog in the board. Thats it, if you are really worried, board in Needles for Knight or Therapy it away. This is the only way that terrible land will ever be run. And if people really want to play 4 of them in the board to deal with dredge ... more power to them I guess, Relic is just better in every way; you may lose a few games to it here and there because of how unexpected it is, (like those idiots running Mindbreak Trap in metas where 2% of the field is storm) but it will not be a problem.

Aleksandr

01-22-2010, 02:22 PM

I also strongly believe that people that overcommit their sideboards to dredge matchup will lose to established decks, namely Thresh, so we won't meet them on the higher tables. (says the guy that does not frequent 50+ ppl tournaments/)

frogboy

01-22-2010, 02:24 PM

Crop rotation makes it an instant.

Ravenous Trap is an instant.

BreathWeapon

01-22-2010, 02:30 PM

What decks would pack it? Eva Green, The Rock, Depths junk? It's a Sorcery speed removal wich actually looks awesome at first glance. But actually ain't good at all. The fact that it comes into play tapped makes it uterlly useless.

It's busted in Intuition/Life from the Loam decks, that's better than Academy Ruins + Tormod's Crypt recursion, also gives a Knight of the Reliquary a lot of utility as well as Crop Rotation (43 Lands). Just SBing the thing is like a Tormod's Crypt that can't be discarded and that can add to the land count - shit that'd be good in the mirror IMO.

This card is seeing play, definitely.

Anusien

01-22-2010, 02:33 PM

pippo84

01-22-2010, 02:38 PM

About Bog look it another way: if WotC is printing new graveyard hate they will surely print some new card to abuse the graveyard!

BreathWeapon

01-22-2010, 02:54 PM

Please run lands that come into play tapped and make an irrelevant color of mana (i.e., not blue). You may increase your Ichorid matchup by 5% (it takes a deck from "No way to interact in game 1" to "Almost no way to interact in game 1") but you'll lose hard to the other decks in the format.

This is an effective anti-Loam card, not an anti-Dredge card. Loam decks will play one to win the mirror, and that's probably about it.

Not necessarily, as the hate becomes increasingly diverse, the value of Cabal Therapy decreases. Just a combination of 1xRavenous Trap, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus and this land causes a lot of problems for our traditional disruption strategy. I think it'll see more play just on the back of being a Therapy work around.

Pulp_Fiction

01-22-2010, 05:21 PM

Wow, dedicating more than 4-5 slots of your SB to grave hate is just ignorant. I'm not saying people won't do it, but, seriously. Anyone who plays Tormod's Crypt, Relic, AND Trap in the board is going to ravage the fuck out of their other marginal matchups. Point being, this is not a successful SB strategy and people who do this will not make it very far unless Dredge happens to make up 30% or more of the field and they play it every time. The Bog will be played but it won't be much of a problem.

SlopeeJ

01-22-2010, 05:49 PM

I dunno I think 5 is minimum especially if you have other graveyard decks like loam and re animator around. I have beaten a lot of decks that just bring in 4 cards vs dredge. I think 6 is the right answer to ensure you see at least 1 of the cards. As most dredge players know one relic or crypt just isn't enough

Zappa

01-22-2010, 07:31 PM

One of the new creatures spoiled, Terastodon...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=4852310&postcount=1

Does this creature replace Woodfall Primus in our sideboard? Or does Woodfall Primus maintain the spot?

Sevryn

01-22-2010, 07:50 PM

Hi, I am new to Dredge (not Magic). I have read most of this thread. I have some questions, all of which regard why one would run a specific number of a card in the deck

-Ichorid: 3/4?

-Dread Return: 2/3/4?

-Cephalid Coliseum: 3/4?

-Cabal Therapy: 3/4?

-Dread Return targets: 0/1/2?

Thanks for your time.

Zappa

01-22-2010, 09:17 PM

Hi, I am new to Dredge (not Magic). I have read most of this thread. I have some questions, all of which regard why one would run a specific number of a card in the deck

Well choices mainly depends on personal preference, and the type of list one runs, however, usually, even with slight differences in the deck, we could usually agree on certain things.

Ichorid: 3/4?
Ichorid, should be something to be run a full number. It's our back up beat down plan, it helps us build tokens, it's the card that helps us pressure the opponent into blowing up their crypt or relic early. While some prefers that this be run as 3-off, I'd like to see the card ASAP, and specially with swords to plowshares and path to exiles being run by some decks, I'd definitely want to see this card and keep the pressure going.

Dread Return: 2/3/4?
While I am not opposed to having 3 DRs in the deck, as there are times, though rare, that I felt like a 3rd DR would be nice. 2 in the main deck, seems about right. I almost never really had any problems with 2, except for those rare, once in a blue moon kind of thing. However, if you are running dread return targets, then increasing the count to 3, is good. I don't think 4 main decked is something anyone should be running, unless it's one of those old extended versions.

Cephalid Coliseum: 3/4?
Some list that runs Bloodghasts had either lower the count of these, or entirely cut them. But I prefer a full package of this, while not being a rainbow land, and doesn't synergize with paradise, it still helps give the deck the explosiveness it needs.

Cabal Therapy: 3/4?
Cabal Theraphy, is something I'll always run as a full package. never 3, always 4. I also feel that if its possible to run 6 therapies, i definitely would. It's usually our main and only disruption. Disruption while being backed by a fast clock, is really nice. It's also another way of being able to fend off some hate. Pretty much with therapy you force majority of the decks to go top deck mode.

Dread Return targets: 0/1/2?
Dread Return targets, I would say is 0-1. Not having any dread return targets, except for troll is fine. However, if you wanna run 1 DR target such as Iona, then that is fine too. 0-1 is fine, i can't seem to see any light as to why you'd run 2 (or maybe more) DR targets in the deck. As that is just over kill in game 1, and not really needed, and doesn't help with game 2-3 at all.

Thanks for your time.
Your welcome.

jimirynk

01-22-2010, 09:53 PM

http://www.forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=100579&d=1264194147

HOLY SHIT!

BreathWeapon

01-22-2010, 10:13 PM

http://www.forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=100579&d=1264194147

HOLY SHIT!

Wow, what a beating for Stax and Lands, that's SB material. Reanimator just jizzed itself too for that matter.

Wargoos

01-22-2010, 10:20 PM

It says the destroyed permanents controller may put the token onto the battlefield, why are you jizzing all over yourself?! It's you who has to clean it :S

jimirynk

01-22-2010, 10:40 PM

It says the destroyed permanents controller may put the token onto the battlefield, why are you jizzing all over yourself?! It's you who has to clean it :S

I READ THE CARD WRONG!

JonBarber

01-22-2010, 10:44 PM

I READ THE CARD WRONG!

Ehh, I still think its pretty ballin. Maybe more so in Reanimator, but I still see it having its sideboard place.

BreathWeapon

01-22-2010, 11:07 PM

It says the destroyed permanents controller may put the token onto the battlefield, why are you jizzing all over yourself?! It's you who has to clean it :S

Because we have an out vs. Lands, that's kind of a big deal.

Wargoos

01-22-2010, 11:23 PM

Because we have an out vs. Lands, that's kind of a big deal.

Since I am not questioning your dredge expirience and am myself quite the dredge newbie I still have to say that Lands is a very unpopular deck that I haven't seen since years played against me.
(Though it appears to see more play recently despite tabernacles being quite expensive.)

SlopeeJ

01-22-2010, 11:29 PM

angel of despair still seems better to me

Since I am not questioning your dredge expirience and am myself quite the dredge newbie I still have to say that Lands is a very unpopular deck that I haven't seen since years played against me.
(Though it appears to see more play recently despite tabernacles being quite expensive.)

Loom decks are starting to appear more

BreathWeapon

01-23-2010, 12:20 AM

Since I am not questioning your dredge expirience and am myself quite the dredge newbie I still have to say that Lands is a very unpopular deck that I haven't seen since years played against me.
(Though it appears to see more play recently despite tabernacles being quite expensive.)

Lands is seeing a revival, and in niche metagmes it's a significant concern for Dredge because it's a massively unfavorable match up, so if 1 SB card gives us a shot in hell at winning it I'm all for facing down Elephants.

Sevryn

01-23-2010, 02:06 AM

Lands is seeing a revival, and in niche metagmes it's a significant concern for Dredge because it's a massively unfavorable match up, so if 1 SB card gives us a shot in hell at winning it I'm all for facing down Elephants.

Can't you just run Magus of the Moon as a Dread Return target in the sideboard? I haven't played this matchup, but it sounds good to me..

jimirynk

01-23-2010, 03:00 AM

relm razor > lands.
Plus it is good vs. enchantress.

slylie

01-23-2010, 05:01 AM

Can't you just run Magus of the Moon as a Dread Return target in the sideboard? I haven't played this matchup, but it sounds good to me..

Nice avatar/quote btw. I just looked at the "you look cold, have a blanket" and wondered what you were on about, then saw the pic... smallpox. Too funny. How many people actually pick up on that?

pippo84

01-23-2010, 10:39 AM

Wanted to post my list and sb. Comments are welcome!
I would like to add some dredgers to mulligan less and be more stable, but there isn't any space.

3 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Dakmore Salvage
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mines

4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
3 Bloodghast
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame Kin Zealot
1 Iona

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

3 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return

Sb:

4 Chain of Vapor
3 Unmask
3 Firestorm
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Anchestor's Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus

Thought and comments on md and sb?
The list seems to work btw..

linux-ll-

01-23-2010, 11:04 AM

Why only 3 Paradise? There are so important to recover Bloodghast!

pippo84

01-23-2010, 12:19 PM

Why only 3 Paradise? There are so important to recover Bloodghast!

Because I just own 3 and can't find the last one I need.

NQN

01-23-2010, 01:22 PM

I can´t understand running less than 4 ichorids in the favour of Blooghasts. BG isn´t nearly as good as Ichorid is when it comes to fight Crypts because he´s just not that much of a threat since he´s 2/1 without haste and doesn´t provide us any tokens. I tried hard to like him but imho he just makes the deck worse.

Raptor

01-23-2010, 02:32 PM

Because we have an out vs. Lands, that's kind of a big deal.

Is the land match up that bad ?
I've played 2 times recently versus it, and won 2-0 each games.

If they don't have Glacial Chasm in play, you should win most of the times.

Game one, you keep an agressive hand with, Land, Breakthrough/careful study/ Cephalide coliseum, PImp/Tireless Tribe, Dredger.

You have enough land so you're Tireless tribe will most likely survive (Except if they have Tabernacle, wasteland and one of their enchantement.
You just try to combo out with FKZ as soon a possible, even if it's for low damage... and then you do the ichorid beatdown.

jimirynk

01-24-2010, 03:31 PM

Its harder without fkz.

Arne

01-25-2010, 05:22 AM

Went 6-0 at a local 21man tourney.

This is my list:
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass

4x Tireless Tribe
4x Putrid Imp
4x Narcomoeba
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari- Grave Troll
3x Golgari Thug
3x Ichorid
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

4x Bridge from Below
4x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Dread Return
1x Deep Analysis (appears to be an oops I win card when in a stalemate)

Sideboard:
4x Pithing Needle
4x Ancient Grudge
3x Chain of Vapor
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Wispmare
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Sadistic Hypnotist

Had to play:
Round 1: BW Clerics against a random scrub. 2-1. Didn't see the ensnaring bridge coming...
Round 2: mirror. 2-0 Iona on black wins the game twice
Round 3: the Secret Force v2.0 (sort of MGCA) 2-1. Waited to long to force him to break his Relic and made an error by dissing my two dredger in stead of 1. Game 3 was mine.
Round 4: Dragon Stompy. 2-0 DDD due to Chalice@1&2. Ichorid beats face, game 2 I block his magi of the moon and activate my coliseum for the win.
Round 5: RGb AggroLoam. 2-0 Game 1 he wished for a DD, I therapied the devastating sorcery and went to win from thereon. Game 2, he was manascrewed.
Round 6: MonoR gobbo. (2-1) Totally forgot about the ravenous trap. That's how I lost game 2... but no sweat to be honest.

Won a couple of zendikar boosters with a arid mesa, foiled marsh flats, ob nixilis and a bloodchief ascension... could've been worse ;)

pippo84

01-25-2010, 11:13 AM

In my meta everyone is running Ravenous Trap instead of Crypt and Relic. For this reason I was thinking of cutting Ancient Grudge. Thoughts? Is it a bad idea?

Joe_C

01-25-2010, 11:22 AM

you will need grudge.... trap can only get used once and gives you a chance to recover.. It would seem poor judgement for them to remove crypt and relic from their boards just to play trap and hope to "one time" you for the win. I run 3 relic and 2 trap in my goblins board and that works well against anything with a grave, running just 4 traps would be inviting you to make a comback at aome point. Just run some discard. My current Ichorid SB:

2 Wispmare
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Duress
1 Realm Razer
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm

Adan

01-25-2010, 11:42 AM

In my meta everyone is running Ravenous Trap instead of Crypt and Relic. For this reason I was thinking of cutting Ancient Grudge. Thoughts? Is it a bad idea?

Uhm, the main plan in that case is to tell them how stupid they are. I mean, seriously, why should they run such a narrow card in their board? Relic, Crypt and Leyline are all better than Trap against Loambased decks, against Reanimator and against Ichorid. There's no way that Traps are better. Relics are even good enough to combat some Goyfs.

Uh, @Ancient Grudge: ALWAYS play 4, it's the most important SB card against the artifact GY hate. Also useful against EEs or Chalices.

ktkenshinx

01-25-2010, 11:54 AM

In regards to Joe_C's sideboard: I am very concerned at the lack of Chain of Vapor. This card is an indispensable part of the Dredge arsenal. The difference between 1 and 2 mana is enormous, when it comes to dealing with Leyline, Crypt, Relic, etc. Given that your deck probably runs 12-14 lands, like most other builds, you will not reliably have more than 1 land. This means that hardcasting a Grudge or Ray is an extremely inconsistent strategy. Yes, you can dredge into them conservatively (unless Leyline is in the picture), but even that is not the best plan. You could lose valuable cards even in a conservative dredge. Chain just seems like an automatic playset in all sideboards.

Similarly, I must question your use of Duress. Is it specifically to deal with Ravenous Trap (as you suggest in your post)? I cannot think of any threat that Duress will get rid of that Therapy/Hypnotist does not handle equally well. Moreover, unlike the rest of the cards in your sideboard, Duress has absolutely no synergy with the Dredge strategy. You have to hardcast it, and you have to have it in your hand. Its sole purpose is to hinder the opponent, and it has no positive benefit to you other than that. Firestorm, on the other hand, while it must be hardcasted from your hand, at least aids your overall game plan. The same goes for Wispmare (a reasonable Dread Return target, if you cannot cast it and you need more than a few Rays). If you are worried about disrupting your opponent, then I strongly recommend using 2 Hypnotists, arguably one of the best DR targets in your arsenal.

Ravenous Trap itself is not that scary of a card. The 13+ trigger is particularly important; it is as if Wizards allowed us to get 2 Grave-Troll dredges in before the trap is sprung. You can easily play around Ravenous without a major loss of speed. Relic, Leyline, Crypt; these cards are much more threatening (so too will be the new land from Worldwake, when it comes out). Sideboard cards should specifically counter these cards, not the lesser threat of Trap.

Uh, @Ancient Grudge: ALWAYS play 4, it's the most important SB card against the artifact GY hate. Also useful against EEs or Chalices.
I disagree that you should "ALWAYS" play 4. 3 is more than sufficient. Many of the artifact GY hate cards can be played around, or are not immediately threatening. Enchantments are far more problematic. An active Moat can shut you down for two turns, long enough for the Enchantress player to win. Chalice and EE will often slow your opponent down as much as it slows you down, OR their deck was slower to begin with. You have time to deal with artifacts, in most cases. Enchantment hatred and threats are far more serious.

-ktkenshinx-

Wargoos

01-25-2010, 11:55 AM

Uhm, the main plan in that case is to tell them how stupid they are. I mean, seriously, why should they run such a narrow card in their board? Relic, Crypt and Leyline are all better than Trap against Loambased decks, against Reanimator and against Ichorid. There's no way that Traps are better. Relics are even good enough to combat some Goyfs.

Issue is that people do run the trap in their sideboards despite the card being narrow and worse than relic, crypt and leyline and that it has it's situational success against dredge. I guess we can all agree that trap is worse than conventional gy hate.

fyrisen

01-25-2010, 12:18 PM

Issue is that people do run the trap in their sideboards despite the card being narrow and worse than relic, crypt and leyline and that it has it's situational success against dredge. I guess we can all agree that trap is worse than conventional gy hate.

I love when people play with trap, all you have to do is Therapy them for trap and all there hate is gone. To be honest Tormods Crypt and Relic has become quiet bad recently after parchers SB, from the LED version.

jimirynk

01-25-2010, 12:39 PM

Trap in an aggressive deck is usually the best gy hate.
When you're trying to keep up by dredging every turn with all of your draw one trap can just be a blow out.
You can't just say your going to therapy their hand, you still need a therapy and a creature that you don't need to block and most of the time a turn 1 blind name game2/3 I name goyf do to it being their best kill vs. us.

Joe_C

01-25-2010, 04:13 PM

Ravenous Trap itself is not that scary of a card. The 13+ trigger is particularly important

-ktkenshinx-

I dont get what this is supposed to mean. Ravenous trap gets played for free if opponent has 3 or more cards go to the grave this turn. You dredge your first draw step and dump in 2 ichorids off your deck (I dont know your exact build I will just use Ichorid as an example) along with some other dredgers, they trap, you are pretty mcuh hosed unless you played turn 1 tribe/imp and have more juice in your hand. I would rather have duress g2/3 against decks since I get to see their hand and play around whatever they have coming. True you need to cast it, but g2/3 you arent going to be as reckless going all in.. You will keep a slower hand with 1 land or more over a DDD (at least I would) I may run another land in my board(I run 13 maindeck) to support the extra mana investment of duress/ray. COV is good, dont get me wrong, in my meta I am WAY more concerned seeing propaganda or facing enchantress, where bouncing it isnt going to do shit for you. I need to KILL enchantments. I also do not run zealot, so I wont be turn 2ing anyone. I grind it out with tokens, Iona, maindeck ancestor's chosen.

AcidFiend

01-25-2010, 05:15 PM

Unmask has widely been accepted as a sideboard card (even MD in some builds) so for someone to use Duress isn't that much of a stretch.

jimirynk

01-25-2010, 05:22 PM

@ Duress
Isn't thought seize is strickly better.
Siding in 4 duress vs. zoo with ravenous trap seems wrong..
If you miss the trap you can still snag a goyf before it starts giving you a headache.

Vs. combo I guess the 2 life could make it problematic, but though seize > duress vs. any deck with creatures.

Ozymandias

01-25-2010, 05:49 PM

So I've ran into a bunch of Leylines from decks that could recast them, and I really did not have enough juice to Chain/discard them. So I was wondering about substituting them for Wispmare or Emerald Charm. I think that Charm might be better because it is an instant spped, but Wispmare can be a dude to make zombies if it matters. Thoughts?

ktkenshinx

01-25-2010, 06:05 PM

I dont get what this is supposed to mean. Ravenous trap gets played for free if opponent has 3 or more cards go to the grave this turn. You dredge your first draw step and dump in 2 ichorids off your deck (I dont know your exact build I will just use Ichorid as an example) along with some other dredgers, they trap, you are pretty mcuh hosed unless you played turn 1 tribe/imp and have more juice in your hand.
My statement was unclear. Let me rephrase. There is a persistent myth that graveyard hatred is highly problematic for Dredge. This is not true. Trap, being a responsive, not active, hate card, is even less problematic than Relic or Crypt. You simply play conservatively against your opponent, forcing them to prematurely spring the Ravenous Trap in response to an early Therapy. As for a discard outlet, in builds that run 4 Imps and 4 Tribes, this is rarely a problem. You have a far higher chance of getting one of those than your opponent does of getting a Ravenous Trap (especially since deck data reveals that this card tends to get played in sets of 3 as opposed to 4). The chances of dredging 2 Ichorids on your first draw are extremely low. If you are that unlucky, then any number of graveyard hatred cards would derail you. Your statement about Trap would apply equally well to a situation in which the opponent was toting a Relic or Crypt.

I would rather have duress g2/3 against decks since I get to see their hand and play around whatever they have coming. True you need to cast it, but g2/3 you arent going to be as reckless going all in.. You will keep a slower hand with 1 land or more over a DDD (at least I would) I may run another land in my board(I run 13 maindeck) to support the extra mana investment of duress/ray.
I agree with slowing down for games 2 and 3, but the only card that Duress deals with that another board card does not is Ravenous Trap. It seems silly to board in additional hatred for one single card. Yes, Duress is going to cause damage to other strategies, but so too will your other board cards. They are also more versatile, and more coherent with your overall strategy (Mare/Chewer can be recurred, Firestorm discards your dredgers, etc.)
Your point on CoV is fair; if it is a metagame call, then I am not one to suggest otherwise.

Unmask has widely been accepted as a sideboard card (even MD in some builds) so for someone to use Duress isn't that much of a stretch.
I am questioning the usefulness of all such cards, be they Unmask, Duress, Thoughtseize, etc. Are they really necessary? What cards do they uniquely stop? What decks are they uniquely important against? Not all builds run the card, so I am wondering what the thought process is that goes behind its inclusion.

-ktkenshinx-

jimirynk

01-25-2010, 07:48 PM

I am questioning the usefulness of all such cards, be they Unmask, Duress, Thoughtseize, etc. Are they really necessary? What cards do they uniquely stop? What decks are they uniquely important against? Not all builds run the card, so I am wondering what the thought process is that goes behind its inclusion.

Decks that do not run artifact hate to make your grudges useful, ie. ravenous trap, faerie macabre.
They're not vs. a particular match-up just how they board vs. you.
It could also improve your combo match-up.

SlopeeJ

01-25-2010, 08:07 PM

There is a persistent myth that graveyard hatred is highly problematic for Dredge. This is not true
What really?? That statement makes zero sense at all........ Trap is a very good hate card combined with other hate such as relic, crypt, wheel sun and moon. Obviously using trap as your only hate seems to suck pretty badly. Answering one hate card with dredge is very easy and (in my meta) any player who wants to win against dredge has a varied hate. Trap is good as a surprise effect and any good player will trap you after you dredge and before your main. Which was already intelligently mentioned, but was written off as you can just cabal it... My meta also has counterspells such as force of will and I usually don't get 4 cabals off my first dredge. So unless I know they have trap that is pretty far down the list of cards to name with my first cabal.

As far as people saying chain of vapor is the be all in their sbs, wouldn't it just be better to have answers for threats instead of trying to bounce it? Wispmare just seems so much better then just bouncing leyline, same with needle/grudge for artifacts. My sb consists of 1 ancestors chosen, 1 flame-kin, 3 firestorm then a combination of artifact and enchantment hate. What else is there to worry about??

Herudaio

01-25-2010, 08:12 PM

Reanimator deck
Second turn blazing archon
That's why u need chain.

SlopeeJ

01-25-2010, 09:12 PM

nice I should have know that everyone has chain in their sb to bounce Blazing Archon which can probably just be discarded again and played again. If Blazon Archon is running rampant in your meta it seems like hard counters would be better then just trying to bounce. I would guess that most people have chain in their sb to bounce leylines which imo Wispmare is better, especially when they have more lands and can chain you back

Herudaio

01-25-2010, 09:47 PM

Question was when chain is good when wisp is not. And that's what I said.
With archon in game its not hard to amass an army so bounce for one turn is enough.
In general chain has more broad application.

Joe_C

01-25-2010, 09:48 PM

Reanimator deck
Second turn blazing archon
That's why u need chain.

dont they run force? also you arent going to mull into chain against reanimator, they will just discard it and reanimate again.... that doesnt seem like a good reason to run COV

ktkenshinx

01-25-2010, 11:42 PM

Decks that do not run artifact hate to make your grudges useful, ie. ravenous trap, faerie macabre.
They're not vs. a particular match-up just how they board vs. you.
It could also improve your combo match-up.
I agree that Faerie Macabre is a threatening card, and one worthy of concern. Thankfully, it is all but absent from most deck's sideboard. In the past year, from January 2010 going back to January 2009, there have been only 26 decks that ran Macabre that made it to the Top 8 of any major event (Source, Deckcheck.net, http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?main=Faerie+Macabre). This leads me to believe that it is not a serious threat worthy of consideration in our boarding plans. Yes, there are decks that run Macabre that did not make Top 8, but I do not believe those numbers are remotely significant.

Now, Ravenous Trap is substantially more prevalent. The question is, how much of a threat is the trap? Is it worth boarding for? I believe that it CAN be worth boarding for, but only with certain cards. Duress is an alright answer. As is Nix, Spell Pierce, and Dispel (the new counterspell from Worldwake). All of these cards are possible answers to Trap, but they are not necessary answers. Trap has a maindeck counter in the form of Therapy. Provided you dredge conservatively, not explosively, then you can easily force your opponent to blow a valuable Trap prematurely. Why are they so valuable? Because your opponent only has 3, in all likelihood. Surveying the sideboards of decks for the past few months, we see that an overwhelming number of them use only 3 Traps. More use 2 than do 4. If you are running 4 Therapy's and at least 1 Hypnotist, you have a good chance of forcing your opponent to activate their traps early. This will then allow you, provided you saved cards in your hand, to explode the following turn.

What really?? That statement makes zero sense at all........ Trap is a very good hate card combined with other hate such as relic, crypt, wheel sun and moon. Obviously using trap as your only hate seems to suck pretty badly. Answering one hate card with dredge is very easy and (in my meta) any player who wants to win against dredge has a varied hate. Trap is good as a surprise effect and any good player will trap you after you dredge and before your main. Which was already intelligently mentioned, but was written off as you can just cabal it... My meta also has counterspells such as force of will and I usually don't get 4 cabals off my first dredge. So unless I know they have trap that is pretty far down the list of cards to name with my first cabal.
Take a look at the results for Dredge in the past few months. Dredge has consistently placed in the top 16 of all the SCG events (top 8 in some). Dredge continues to do well in other events, with dozens of top 8 finishes (and tournament victories) in just January of 2010 alone. Now, if we just looked at the sideboards of their opponents, we would think that Dredge had no chance in hell. 4 Crypts, 4 Leylines, 3 Traps, 4 Relics, 4 Wheel; every board has one of these sets. Yet, Dredge continues to prevail, despite the ferocious hatred that Wizards keeps printing. It is so easy for people to say "Here is the sick, textbook play that you do with this card, and here is how it totally owns Dredge." For example, your own comment, "Trap is good as a surprise effect and any good player will trap you after you dredge and before your main." We can go on for hours with these idealized scenarios, but the bottom line is simple. The deck evidence shows that Dredge prevails despite these plays. Countermagic, graveyard hate, etc; it does not just stop Dredge flat in its tracks. This is the myth of graveyard hate.

-ktkenshinx-

SlopeeJ

01-26-2010, 01:53 AM

I don't think you even read my post and I love how you tried to quote me then only used half of what I said. First of all I only mentioned trap because all the people keep saying, "we don't care about trap we just cabal therapy it" which is obvious not correct for the reasons I mentioned. Trap by itself is not that good or any of the others that you mentioned. I stated that dredge has problems with VARIED hate, meaning (for example) 3 crypts, 2 jailer and 2 trap. You tried saying that dredge can win through a set of leylines or a set of crypts, I"m agreeing with you. Like I mentioned varied hate is the way to beat dredge or dredge will win as you said through hate. So I'm almost thinking we agree

I can play the game also, why is everyone so worried about Faerie Macabre, we can just cabal it out of their hands..... So the argument is still valid if they play it when we can't cabal them for it. These idealized scenarios are what magic is about and why you need to have answers for hate and why trap is a good card combined with other graveyard hate.

So yes we are agreeing, I would play dredge in every tournament I went to if people were only running 3 traps or 3 of anything as their HATE for dredge. But that isn't happening in my meta for the most part

As far as the chain on the Blazing Archon, that doesn't even deserve any more talking about. Your kinda on a clock when he is on the board so I don't think you can sit and build to much of an army

Zappa

01-26-2010, 02:59 AM

12:08 A.M. here, I just got back, 20 Minutes ago, coming from a 20+ man tournament, 4 rounds of Swiss.
My list is the following:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Theraphy
2 Dread Return

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe

4 Careful Study
4 Breaktrough
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Realm Razer
3 Unmask

I got there like 1 hour early, but had some nice chats with everyone.
There was a couple of really friendly people.
Anyways, tournament started.

1st Match up: Played James piloting some BGU deck.
Round 1:
All I can recall from this match up was that he has Dark Confidant, Sensei's Divining Top, and Counterbalance In play.
I won with a bunch of zombie tokens and DRed a 14/14 troll.
SB In: +3 Chain of Vapor, +1 Woodfall Primus
SB Out: -1 Coliseum, -1 Breaktrough, -1 Tireless Tribe, -1 Iona
Round 2:
He chose to go 1st, dropping, Leyline of the Void and Sensei's Divining Top.
I dropped City of brass and casted Putrid Imp.
His 2nd turn He dropped Dark Confidant and passed the turn.
I dropped Undiscovered Paradise, Playing Chain of Vapor, discarded some dredgers and used the city of brass to play Careful study,
dredging 2 narcomoebas.
I just killed him by constantly attacking with 2X narco, and 2/2 putrid Imp, and kept my tribe on standby.
I won 2 games in a row. Current standing 1-0

2nd Matchup: Chris piloting Counter Slivers
Round 1:
He won the die roll and went first.
I don't remember much of this round, except that I was undisrupted and won early.
SB In: +3 Chain of Vapor, +1 Woodfall Primus
SB Out: -1 Colisuem, -1 Breaktrough, -1 Tribe, -1 Iona
Round 2:
He chose to go first, dropped wasteland, Relic of Progenitus, and Tormod's Crypt.
His turn 2 He dropped another Relic of Progenitus and Aether Vial.
I couldn't recover at all, not when he's hitting me with several big slivers.
SB In: +3 Ancient Grudge
SB Out: -3 Chain of Vapor
Round 3:
I chose to go 1st, dropping city of brass and Imp with Ancient Grudge also in my hand.
His turn he dropped Tropical Island, Relic of Progenitus, and Tormod's Crypt.
My 2nd turn, I dredged a few, but gained nothing good, my grudge ran into a daze.
His turn he dropped another Crypt, I didn't give up and tried to keep fighting,
but he dropped his 2nd relic during on of the later turns.
I couldn't do anything about this at all.
I won 1st game, he won the next 2. Current standing 1-1

3rd Match up: Brad Piloting ANT
This was a very uncomfortable match, as the person kept swearing and pounding the table,
Round 1:
I won the die roll, and chose to go 1st.
I dropped Gemstone Mine and a Tireless Tribe and passed the turn.
His turn, he spent like 5 minutes staring at my tireless tribe for some unknown reason,
and was calculating so much stuff "Combo?" I thought to my self.
He dropped swamp and a Mox Diamond, Played Infernal Tutor revealing LED, and passed the turn. EoT discard dredgers.
My turn I dredged, casted Therapy naming LED, I saw a burning wish too, and Flashbacked to get rid of it.
He got really mad, swore really loud and pounded the table. He conceded.
SB In: +3 Unmask, +1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB Out: -1 Coliseum, -1 tribe, -1 Careful Study, -1 Iona
Round 2:
In this round, I was able to unmask his Ad Nauseum, but he instead Burning Wished for Empty the warrens,
and put down ten (10) 1/1s.
With Imp in play, I chain dredged with Breaktrough, DRed Ancestor's Chosen, boosting me to 43 Health.
His Ten 1/1s vs my 1 Ancestor's Chosen and three 2/2s.
He got angry and conceded. I said good game and was going to shake his hand but he just walked away swearing.
Won 2 games in a row... Curent standing 2-1

4th Match up: Brian piloting Bant.
Nice and friendly guy, also lent me his tokens for the entire tournament, but he knew what I was playing with and I dont know his. :laugh:
Round 1:
1st round took some delay, as my Putrid Imp ran into a daze, but I had tribe in hand as well and a coliseum.
I dredged for a little until I can build up enough to get 7 cards in graveyard for my coliseum.
He scooped when I activated coliseum, and he can' really stop me from amassing an army of tokens.
SB in: +3 Chain of Vapor, +1 Woodfall Primus
SB out: -1 coliseum, -1 Breaktrough, -1 putrid imp, -1 Iona.
Round 2:
This was a close race, trading hits per hits with my earlier zombies, putrid imp, and ichorids vs his double tarmogoyf,
even after being hit with relic (got 1 of my bridges). But eventually,
my Ichorid's ran out of food, and I was unlucky to not find any more bridges.
SB In: +3 Ancient Grudge, +1 Woodfall Primus
SB Out: -1 Cephalid Coliseum, -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Iona
Round 3:
I chose to go first opening with City of Brass and Putrid Imp.
He casted Noble Hierarch. EoT discard dredgers.
My turn I dropped another rainbow land, Casted Theraphy naming Daze. I saw 2 Tarmogoyf's and 1 Meddling Mage.
I dropped Imp, flashbacked Therapy naming goyf, used the therapy that was dredged earlier, naming meddling Mage.
2 Zombie Tokens, and Ichorid recursions while building up additional tokens, while opponent digs for answers, but concedes.
I won 2, He won once... Current standing 3-1.

Took 5th place in the tournament, even though I saw that others ahead of me were also 3-1.

PaRa

01-26-2010, 03:24 AM

Round 2:
He chose to go 1st, dropping, Leyline of the Void and Sensei's Divining Top.
I dropped City of brass and casted Putrid Imp.
His 2nd turn He dropped Dark Confidant and passed the turn. I Discarded some dredgers EoT.
I dropped Undiscovered Paradise, Playing Chain of Vapor, and used the city of brass to play Careful study,
dredging 2 narcomoebas, and Imp.

i think you mixed something up there right? Or did he let you dredge from the "exile"

Zappa

01-26-2010, 05:06 AM

i think you mixed something up there right? Or did he let you dredge from the "exile"

It's a simple typing error on my part. A lot of my notes are short and brief, and i'm just copying and putting things together on my notes. I meant that I discarded them after I used my Chain of Vapor.

EDIT: fixed previous post to prevent confusion.

jimirynk

01-26-2010, 02:02 PM

Why did you side out a land vs. a deck with wastleland and dazes?

You sided completely wrong..

Zappa

01-26-2010, 02:52 PM

Umm because dropping from 15 to 14 isn't really a problem for me. Plus the deck that I faced probably has a ridiculous amount of anti graveyard hate, hence his opening plays?

jimirynk

01-26-2010, 10:39 PM

Here's a hint don't side out lands vs. wasteland/daze.

If the deck runs fine off of 14 lands why are you running 15?
The only reason I would run 15 is to fight all the waste/daze.

Ok crazy idea don't hate, has anyone ever tried Sharuum the Hegemon as both your DR targets or maybe bumping it to a 3 of.

I mean one BfB in the yard when you DR it with another in the yard is INFINITE tokens.
I fell like this give the deck a one card DR target to seal the deal. Still don't know if this is better then 1 Iona, 1 Chosen.

A vintage list that abuses Sharuum

This came from Matt Elias' current article on StarCityGames, Of Bazaars and Workshops.

4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Fatestitcher
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Dread Return
3 Sharuum the Hegemon
1 Altar of Dementia
1 Possessed Portal
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Narcomoeba
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
2 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
1 Ancestral Recall

• Sharuum can return fast mana from the Graveyard to play, such as Black Lotus and Lion’s Eye Diamond. For example, imagine a turn in which you play Bazaar, and pass. At the end of the opponent’s turn, you will activate Bazaar of Baghdad and discard some number of Dredgers. On your Upkeep, you will repeat this process, and then replace your draw with another Dredge, hopefully hitting some number of Narcomoeba’s and putting Bloodghasts into your Graveyard. You can then play a land to bring back the Bloodghast(s) and Unearth Fatestitcher to untap Bazaar and Dredge twice more. Provided that you’re able to get to three creatures between Fatestitcher, Bloodghast, Narcomoeba, or zombie tokens created by Cabal Therapy / Bridge from Below, you can then play Dread Return on Sharuum. If you have Black Lotus or Lion’s Eye Diamond in your Graveyard along with at least one more Fatestitcher, you would target those with Sharuum’s trigger, using the mana to chain together Fatestitcher activations to Dredge out the entire deck on the second turn of the game. This process makes this one of the faster and more consistent Dredge decks in Vintage.

• Sharuum can also function as a quick and easy win in the same way as Sadistic Hypnotist should you flip Possessed Portal into your Graveyard. For those that are unfamiliar with it, Possessed Portal is an artifact from Mirrodin block that costs 8 mana, so you know it has to be insane. It functions as a lock piece by preventing either player from drawing any more cards.

• Sharuum can also be used to create an infinite number of Zombie tokens with Bridge from Below. When you Dread Return on Sharuum, you choose a second Sharuum with the trigger from the first Sharuum. Because Sharuum is legendary, they’ll both be destroyed, stacking Bridge triggers and Sharuum triggers. You then just loop this process until you feel you have a large enough zombie army… although, can one ever really have a large enough zombie army? This arbitrarily large zombie army can win the game immediately if you have access to Alter of Dementia with Sharuum, as you can mill away the opponent’s entire library. Alter also serves as a way of flipping your own cards into the graveyard early if you’re digging for additional combo pieces.

I know some of you might yell and say this is a vintage deck but it can carry over and its a whole different way to attack building your deck I mean if someone sleeved up a 75 with 3 Sharuum the Hegemon, 1 Altar of Dementia in it I would not second guess them.

Thoughts?

Sevryn

01-27-2010, 03:41 AM

I know some of you might yell and say this is a vintage deck but it can carry over and its a whole different way to attack building your deck I mean if someone sleeved up a 75 with 3 Sharuum the Hegemon, 1 Altar of Dementia in it I would not second guess them.

Thoughts?

My thoughts... are that this is the coolest thing I've seen in M:tG aside from the Worldgorger Dragon combo. The best thing about Sharuum is the word 'may' on it, so you are never in the position of drawing the game by combo-ing.

So, coolness aside, what does running Sharuum gain us? It gives us access to infinite red-zone damage, which is probably win-more, but isn't useless. With Altar of Dementia, we can win without swinging, which is GREAT. Infinite zombie tokens have trouble attacking with Propaganda on the table, and look really stupid with Elephant Grass out. With the Sharuum/Sharuum/Bridge/Altar combo, Dredge can win with Grass on the table. Pretty nifty.

What does Sharuum lose us? Probably consistency. It's a worthless DR target unless there's another artifact in the graveyard, so there will be times when you could have gone off with a Flame-kin Zealot in the yard, but can't because you have Sharuum instead. Running the package you suggested (3 Sharuum and 1 Altar) means cutting something else out of an already tight deck, which is some more consistency lost no matter what it is you are cutting.

This is just theorycrafting though. I'm gonna hit MWS with this, just to confuse people with infinite zombies.

PaRa

01-27-2010, 04:05 AM

I tried it in a local Legacy tournament even though it was an LED built last weekend so this doens't really belongs here..

My results where very random...2 : 1 : 2 in total...

1:1 vs Reanimator (still can't believe this was even possible...)
2:0 vs Goblins
2:0 vs Soldiers
1:1 vs CB Bant
0:2 vs Goblins (mull to 4 in first game / bad mistakes from my side in game 2..)

I was only able to use the combo once vs the Soldiers in a situation where i would have won the game anyway...

Sure Sharuum creates situations like: return sharuum, return LED, sac LED, play DA to go off again but this would have done a Sphinx also.

Iona is in my eyes the better choice and for the combo you need 5 slots 3x Sharuum, 1x Possesses Portal, 1x Altar of Dementia

It was a funny try and all people where looking like "wtf is he playing there" but i wasn't too happy with the result.

In the LED less built i see even less use of it

Zappa

01-27-2010, 06:18 AM

Here's a hint don't side out lands vs. wasteland/daze.

If the deck runs fine off of 14 lands why are you running 15?
The only reason I would run 15 is to fight all the waste/daze.

Instead of just throwing short sentences and throwing hints. Why don't you be more constructive and say what you would have had sided out on that game vs the slivers? Even then the opponent drew and played quite a bit of hate on his 1st two turns, that I just find it overwhelming.

I took out one of each of the land/discard outlet/draw... to pretty much keep up the ratio on those categories. As those ratio has been working for me just fine. When I picked up the deck, I learned quite a great deal of info from people here that I actually copied and pasted what they said in case I need some refreshing. Granted I probably may have made a mistake here and there, since I am not them, but I just tried to use what they had said as a guideline. I am sure what they would do is different, but I use what they said as a simple guide.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11920-%5BDeck%5D-Non-LED-Based-Dredge-Ichorid-Combo&p=405373&viewfull=1#post405373

Build your deck with proper ratios of the card functions you require in your opening hands.

For example, don't run 11 dredgers and 14 of everything else. If you want to make room, then consider going to 13 on everything (including dredgers). We do a similar thing when we are sideboarding out singletons. The proportions are really important to consider.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11920-%5BDeck%5D-Non-LED-Based-Dredge-Ichorid-Combo&p=403963&viewfull=1#post403963

Edit: You guys do know this is a combo deck, right? If you keep cutting pieces, you stop being able to win.

It's why I took out one of each piece so that I don't subtract from 1 category too much that I end up diluting the deck with Sb cards. I Also feel that dropping to 14 is safe, as some list also run 14 some less. Heck, what you said was also saved in my pad...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11920-%5BDeck%5D-Non-LED-Based-Dredge-Ichorid-Combo&p=405292&viewfull=1#post405292

running 15 lands is only 2% hire chance of having a land in your opening 7 than 14 lands.

The reason why I am also running 15 lands, is not to fight waste/daze. But my list before was a 15/15/15 split, but over time, i started toying with things. But Having 15 felt more consistent in finding 1 land in my opening, which is something I appreciate. I probably should have added a 12th dredger, but since I was going on an unknown meta. I decided to do a little bit of tweaking.

But instead of just quick short replies and throwing "hints" which kinda felt a bit condescending to me at the time. Please be a little bit more constructive, and maybe actually say "if it was me I would have take this out"... instead of just saying something like "You sided completely wrong.."

But regardless, versus that counter slivers match up, the guy drew and played so much hate the 1st 2 turns, that I was just overwhelmed. Wasteland, relic, crypt, daze... *sigh* :cry:

EDIT: Regarding Sharuum
I think it's a pretty neat idea but I can't see any justification running it. It would require quite a bit of slots to be freed since we are adding 1 or 2 of it, and quite possibly increasing DR count by 1? Plus, I believe and most everyone also does, when the opponent can't stop you from resolving dread return, you've pretty much won.

alderon666

01-27-2010, 08:02 AM

My thoughts... are that this is the coolest thing I've seen in M:tG aside from the Worldgorger Dragon combo. The best thing about Sharuum is the word 'may' on it, so you are never in the position of drawing the game by combo-ing.

So, coolness aside, what does running Sharuum gain us? It gives us access to infinite red-zone damage, which is probably win-more, but isn't useless. With Altar of Dementia, we can win without swinging, which is GREAT. Infinite zombie tokens have trouble attacking with Propaganda on the table, and look really stupid with Elephant Grass out. With the Sharuum/Sharuum/Bridge/Altar combo, Dredge can win with Grass on the table. Pretty nifty.

What does Sharuum lose us? Probably consistency. It's a worthless DR target unless there's another artifact in the graveyard, so there will be times when you could have gone off with a Flame-kin Zealot in the yard, but can't because you have Sharuum instead. Running the package you suggested (3 Sharuum and 1 Altar) means cutting something else out of an already tight deck, which is some more consistency lost no matter what it is you are cutting.

This is just theorycrafting though. I'm gonna hit MWS with this, just to confuse people with infinite zombies.

Yeah, but Zealot needs at least 2 Bridges in the grave to win, possibly 3 if met with any resistance. The Altar + Sharuum plan actually sounds ok, with 2 Sharuum in the grave + 1 Bridge you get infinite tokens. That is the same requirements as to have 1 Zealot + 2 Bridges... 1 Sharuum + Altar of Dementia nets you some nift amount of card in the grave that might (or not) get you the combo online. Sounds like a decent plan... gets extra style points too.

ktkenshinx

01-27-2010, 10:45 AM

This Sharuum plan is intensely cool. So cool in fact, that it unquestionably falls under the categorization of "The Danger of Cool Things." Infinite zombies? This seems jawdroppingly cool, but extremely ineffective. Ask yourselves how many games would you have won if you had infinite zombies in play as opposed to 3-4 plus your Ichorids/Bloodghasts/FKZ/Imp, etc. I imagine if you are being honest, then the answer is "not many games." Infinite unhasted zombies does nothing to improve the problematic game 1 matchups (Enchantress with Grass, Lands with Chasm, ANT with speed, etc.) and everything to coolify the already winnable aggro matchups. If there was a way to streamline Altar of Dementia AND Sharuum, then that and that alone would give Ichorid a powerful kill mechanism; winning without attacking on the same turn in which you combo out. Yet, it is a whopping 5 card combo, even though a number of those combo pieces have to be in your yard.

Games 2 and 3 are much worse for the Sharuum combo. You have to play conservatively and intelligently in these 2 games (hopefully just one if you ended up winning the first pre-sideobarded game). Sharuum, being a combo that requires 1) 1 Bridge, 2) 2 Sharuum's, 3) 1 Dread Return in the graveyard is never going to get online. Your yard is going to get removed before you can get the combo online. If your opponent can remove one of your Sharuum's off of an early dredge, then your second Sharuum becomes useless, and your DR is left to target Grave-Troll, as opposed to something more useful like FKZ, Hypnotist, Iona, etc. And god forbid you don't have a hand with Altar of Dementia.

All in all the combo is definitely cool, but this is not the deck to support it. There is probably a deck out there that could use the Sharuum recursion trick, either as an alternate or primary kill mechanism. Ichorid is not that deck. It is tight on card slots as is, and the Sharuum combo disrupts that tightness. Moreover, in games 2 and 3, you have to be slow and consistent, waiting to speed up in a moment of opponent weakness. The Sharuum combo is not conducive towards this strategy. Once combo pieces are removed from your deck, the remaining ones become increasingly useless. This lowers your chances of winning the already difficult games 2 and 3, something that Dredge, arguably the most hated deck in the format, cannot afford.

Theorycrafting is highly productive, and do not interpret my words as condescending towards efforts that seek to improve this deck. Sharuum, however, is not the way to do that.

-ktkenshinx-

Maveric78f

01-27-2010, 11:15 AM

Shaarum combo does not fit the LED-less builds obvsiouly. You want to be able to reanimate Shaarum raise LED from the dead, flashback Deep Analysis or unearth Fatestitcher in order to continue digging and finally reanimate another Shaarum FTW.

It does not seem it really needs Bridge to win, since Sharuum would enable to continue dredging via LED.

I'm not an Ichorid specialist, but it looks like it's the only way LED-Ichorid can beat LED-less.

jimirynk

01-27-2010, 11:15 AM

I mean if I played Sharuum it would look something like this off the bat.
It gives us game vs. Echantress, lands, and propaganda effect.

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomeba
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
3 Sharuum the Hegemon
1 Altar of Dementia

4 Bridge from From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

sb
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ancestor’s Chosen
1 Cephalid Coliseum

But it does so much more it gives you an auto win g1 by playing 1 card.. Just therapy for force if you see no STP win the game or if you have 2 therapy name both if you have 2 DR name swords IT DOESN'T MATTER.

How many games have you lost to double force and the got board position and you could only dredge during your upkeep?
I had Iona/chosen in the deck to try to get myself out of sticky situations with the correct out but this looks crazy enough to be legit.

stacker

01-27-2010, 11:25 AM

PaRa

01-27-2010, 11:29 AM

The main reason for playing iona over other Dread Return targets is that she can shut down the game of your opponent as soon she drops the field and is immune to his.

Sharuum gets hit by so many cards in Legacy (unlike in Vintage where i really like it) just like Qasali Pridemage, the worst nightmare...killing Sharuum and removing bridges in one move...

I tried the deck and as i wrote i only got the combo online once out of 12 games..I could have recurred an Iona several times just to swing for the win if i had Iona instead of Sharuum...

Still i like the idea and i would love to see it work but it won't become the deck to beat.

jimirynk

01-27-2010, 11:34 AM

I've been actually running this combo for a while, and I find 2x sharuum + 1x akroma's memorial to be superior. In many cases, you will not find both sharuums in your graveyard, and having 1x sharuum + 4-6 hasted flying zombies is far better than 1x sharuum + an altar.

I'm not saying run sharuum for a cool win more but it allows us with altar to win the turn you DR a target WITHOUT ATTACKING thats huge for are wost matchups.

Now I just have to test to see if the deck wants LED's..

SHHHH ppl I know what thread I'm in but I'm trying to stay up to date with the meta game.

How do you guys beat a game 1 MOAT, BLAZING ARCHON, ELEPHANT GRASS, PROPAGANDA, GLASHAL CHASLM , or TABERNACLE?

I'm not saying this is the only right call but it looks like a great way to beat are worst matchups.

AngryTroll

01-27-2010, 11:38 AM

A vintage list that abuses Sharuum

4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Fatestitcher
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Dread Return
3 Sharuum the Hegemon
1 Altar of Dementia
1 Possessed Portal
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Narcomoeba
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
2 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
1 Ancestral Recall

• Sharuum can return fast mana from the Graveyard to play, such as Black Lotus and Lion’s Eye Diamond. For example, imagine a turn in which you play Bazaar, and pass. At the end of the opponent’s turn, you will activate Bazaar of Baghdad and discard some number of Dredgers. On your Upkeep, you will repeat this process, and then replace your draw with another Dredge, hopefully hitting some number of Narcomoeba’s and putting Bloodghasts into your Graveyard. You can then play a land to bring back the Bloodghast(s) and Unearth Fatestitcher to untap Bazaar and Dredge twice more. Provided that you’re able to get to three creatures between Fatestitcher, Bloodghast, Narcomoeba, or zombie tokens created by Cabal Therapy / Bridge from Below, you can then play Dread Return on Sharuum. If you have Black Lotus or Lion’s Eye Diamond in your Graveyard along with at least one more Fatestitcher, you would target those with Sharuum’s trigger, using the mana to chain together Fatestitcher activations to Dredge out the entire deck on the second turn of the game. This process makes this one of the faster and more consistent Dredge decks in Vintage.

• Sharuum can also function as a quick and easy win in the same way as Sadistic Hypnotist should you flip Possessed Portal into your Graveyard. For those that are unfamiliar with it, Possessed Portal is an artifact from Mirrodin block that costs 8 mana, so you know it has to be insane. It functions as a lock piece by preventing either player from drawing any more cards.

• Sharuum can also be used to create an infinite number of Zombie tokens with Bridge from Below. When you Dread Return on Sharuum, you choose a second Sharuum with the trigger from the first Sharuum. Because Sharuum is legendary, they’ll both be destroyed, stacking Bridge triggers and Sharuum triggers. You then just loop this process until you feel you have a large enough zombie army… although, can one ever really have a large enough zombie army? This arbitrarily large zombie army can win the game immediately if you have access to Alter of Dementia with Sharuum, as you can mill away the opponent’s entire library. Alter also serves as a way of flipping your own cards into the graveyard early if you’re digging for additional combo pieces.

You need to cite this. This came from Matt Elias' current article on StarCityGames, Of Bazaars and Workshops (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18718_The_Long_Winding_Road_Of_Bazaars_and_Workshops.html). You should probably go edit that into your post.

stacker

01-27-2010, 11:42 AM

I'm not saying run sharuum for a cool win more but it allows us with altar to win the turn you DR a target WITHOUT ATTACKING thats huge for are wost matchups.

Now I just have to test to see if the deck wants LED's..

SHHHH ppl I know what thread I'm in but I'm trying to stay up to date with the meta game.

How do you guys beat a game 1 MOAT, BLAZING ARCHON, ELEPHANT GRASS, PROPAGANDA, GLASHAL CHASLM , or TABERNACLE?

I'm not saying this is the only right call but it looks like a great way to beat are worst matchups.

yes it's cool and frankly it's more win-more than anything but if you're concerned about those cards that you'll including 4 cards in an already tight list then you're hitting a fly with a shotgun, also lol ^^

Maveric78f

01-27-2010, 11:42 AM

I mean if I played Sharuum it would look something like this off the bat.
It gives us game vs. Echantress, lands, and propaganda effect.

Doesn't give you the game against enchantress at all. Enchantress plays Solitary Confinement, Seals, Aura of Silence. Not mentionning the antigraveyard enchantments it plays very often MD.

jimirynk

01-27-2010, 11:56 AM

Doesn't give you the game against enchantress at all. Enchantress plays Solitary Confinement, Seals, Aura of Silence. Not mentionning the antigraveyard enchantments it plays very often MD.

How do you guys beat a game 1 MOAT, BLAZING ARCHON, ELEPHANT GRASS, PROPAGANDA, GLASHAL CHASLM , or TABERNACLE?

^^

ktkenshinx

01-27-2010, 12:19 PM

I'm not saying run sharuum for a cool win more but it allows us with altar to win the turn you DR a target WITHOUT ATTACKING thats huge for are wost matchups.
In order for the Sharuum combo to work, you need to have a lot of stuff in your graveyard. You need at least 1 DR, both Sharuum's, 1 Altar, and 1 Bridge. In games 2 and 3, your opponent will be packing hatred to remove your graveyard at a moment's notice. You need to be able to play around this, not be at its mercy. If the opponent removes your graveyard the instant he sees Sharuum hit it, then your combo is utterly sunk, and you have just wasted 3 slots on useless cards (2 Sharuum and 1 Altar). This lowers your already diminished chances of winning the post-sideboarded games.

How do you guys beat a game 1 MOAT, BLAZING ARCHON, ELEPHANT GRASS, PROPAGANDA, GLASHAL CHASLM , or TABERNACLE?
The prevailing game 1 strategy is just to race these threats. Reanimator does not maindeck Blazing Archon (at least, the vast majority of builds do not), so he is not really a concern. Moat and Elephant Grass are essentially unique to Enchantress, which is clearly a tough matchup no matter what you do. Chasm and Tabernacle are easily answerable with a Realm Razer in games 2 and 3. As to Propaganda, you will notice that this card is predominantly a sideboard card, and thus not really a consideration in game 1.
How do you win? Be creative. Be smart. My opponent once got out 2 Ghostly Prisons in a Stax game. I used Dakmor Salvage recursion and 2 other lands to pay the cost and beat him to death with a resurrected Grave Troll, using Therapy to prevent the opponent from using Geddon. Opponent has Tabernacle? Hold out for an FKZ combo win. Moat getting you down? Soar over it with Iona. These games are not unwinnable, and even if they were (which they are not), they are few and far between.

I'm not saying this is the only right call but it looks like a great way to beat are worst matchups.
While it might help some of the worst matchups a little, it harms our better matchups by removing consistency and further opening the deck up to graveyard hatred. Hate can be played around, but only with intelligent and conservative play. The Sharuum combo is just not conducive towards that strategy.

-ktkenshinx-

jimirynk

01-27-2010, 12:24 PM

ktkenshinx

01-27-2010, 12:48 PM

Your hating on it so hard with out even testing it..
You say it hurts consistency when it only requires 2 additional slots.
Games 2/3 I have everything else in the board unless your playing vs. the matchups you need sharuum in.
I'm not saying go out and run this but you just sound foolish for fighting against a card you have put 0 testing in with and not a single person up here has posted results with them MD in a tournament..

I have not tested it in a tournament, but I did test it in 10 games on MWS against a decent gauntlet of Threshold, Merfolk, Zoo, Ant, and 1 Enchantress deck. In game 1, I found that it did not matter whether or not I had Sharuum; as long as my yard was intact, I was going to win no matter what they did. In games 2 and 3, I found myself wanting a better DR target, like Hypnotist or Iona. I found that DR and Sharuum were sitting around in the yard for a turn or 2 just waiting to be hated, because I could not complete the combo for lack of the second Sharuum and/or a bridge. Now, you could contest that MWS testing is insufficient, in which case I urge you to submit other testing data that proves Sharuum's viability.

In order to accomodate Sharuum, in the list posted above, you have essentially neutered the Dread Return package. In order for DR to be effective, you need at least 3 other cards in the graveyard; Sharuum, Sharuum, and Bridge. Before the modifications, DR could combo alone with Hypnotist, FKZ, Iona, etc. If your opponent had no graveyard hatred, that meant you did not have to wait for more cards to bring something beefy back. Now you do. This is a loss of speed and consistency that the deck cannot afford.

Importing an idea from Vintage to Legacy is not inherently bad. Indeed some of those imports can be quite powerful. But when you neglect the other cards that are lost in the import (for example, Bazaar), then it is a subpar transition. The Vintage version of Dredge has a totally different field of threats than does the Legacy version. It also has different tools at its disposal. Ichorid is unquestionable a deck that can use improvement or innovation. I am not trying to crush that. I am, however, saying that Sharuum is a sub-optimal way to improve the LEGACY version of the deck. Perhaps the reason that Sharuum has not appeared in many tournaments is because it is widely understood to be suboptimal.

-ktkenshinx-

jimirynk

01-27-2010, 12:58 PM

Game 2/3 board out 3 sharuum, 1 alter, 4 breakthrough for 2 tribes, 1 Iona, 1 chosen, 4 hate cards..

Is that so hard??
Leave in sharuum vs the match-ups its needed in.

I just feel like the current meta might be calling for something stronger than a DR Iona..

PaRa

01-27-2010, 01:48 PM

I'm not saying go out and run this but you just sound foolish for fighting against a card you have put 0 testing in with and not a single person up here has posted results with them MD in a tournament..

interesting...:really:....have you missed my post? If you need any more details about my games just let me know...

Parcher

01-27-2010, 01:55 PM

I have tested Sharuum, both with people, and in a tournament. Though not on MWS, since that's pointless. I've tested the combo both with, and without LED. I've tested it with Bloodghast, Ichorid, and a split.

I won't say it's awful, but it is worse. Worse than LED-less, far worse than LED, and about equal with Bloodghast builds. While it solves some problems, they are not problems that cannot be raced by the LED version. While it can be removed for slots post-board, these slots are far inferior to the post-board plan of the LED-less version. It also does create some vulnerabilities, due to the necessary recursion, to creature and artifact removal that is not normally relevant. The Ichorid version could still lose to creature removal during upkeep, and the Bloodghast version could still lose to problems with not having a replayable land; since this version is almost entirely dependant on combo-ing off.

But basically, it's too slow and clunky. While you can use Sharuum and Altar to continue into the combo, you lose the invunerability to Bridge removal you normally have with this version. If you only have one piece in the yard,(Sharuum, Altar, DR) the rest are useless. Although I will say in the LED-less build, that hardcasting Altar is the absolute sickness. But unless you expect a tournament dominated by Life, Lands, and Moat, this is too slow and draw-dependant.

jimirynk

01-27-2010, 02:16 PM

I can see the flaws as all of you can but with probably more games played and definitely more tournament plays than all of you I don't disregard an idea because you all say it doesn't sound good..
How many GAME ONE's did you mulligan to either a slow hand or had a break through or study forced and your slowly dredging once a turn.
DR a Iona isn't going to save you, Chosen will but sharuum not only get's you out of the hole it wins you the game.

I don't know I'm going to test it and probably run it through a vestal torn before I listen to players who I don't know if I can even take their testing into consideration.

O I'll say this before a shit storm, I don't have more testing with LED dredge the parcher but I had a YEAR of testing with that as my main deck but shifted my deck for the meta but I know I have more testing with LEDless dredge then you parcher.

frogboy

01-27-2010, 02:36 PM

Stop baiting each other. Some of this discussion is really good. Some of it is not.

This is also an excellent time to call people's attention to the site rules requiring proper spelling and grammar.

frogboy

01-27-2010, 02:37 PM

jimirynk

01-27-2010, 02:40 PM

I don't know I must be the only person to have lost a game 1 to a force before..

jimirynk

01-27-2010, 02:42 PM

What Force of Will decks have a significant clock? Tarmogoyf, sure, but you can put Tribe or Zombies in front of that dude for a long time.

Bant, Nobant, fae, any thresh deck and more..
Have you really never lost a game to a force blowing you out and your DDD plan being to slow to come back?

frogboy

01-27-2010, 02:52 PM

The situation you are assuming is the following:

You didn't know your opponent was Blue, and mulliganned, and,

Your opponent had Force of Will or was on the play with Daze, and,

You either didn't have additional outlets or they, too were countered and,

Your opponent has multiple large animals clocking you and,

You were still able to begin dredging somehow and,

Despite not resolving Breakthrough or activating Coliseum you still hit two Sharuums, and,

A 12/12ish Grave-Troll would have been insufficient to win the game.

You realize what a corner case that is, right?

Now, how many games are you losing because you have four blanks in your deck?

edit: I have lost two game ones in tournaments to Force of Will decks. One was against Merfolk; he had Cursecatcher, Wasteland, Daze, and Force. I was DDDing, but was flipping blanks, and I only had one land to cast Tribe. It was countered, and he had Wasteland. The other game was against Bant Survival. I punted, didn't DDD, and by the time I started dredging through three counterspells, he had Tarmogoyf clocking me. I missed on Narcomoeba in fifteen cards or Ichorid + Bridge in ten. Both of those games were very close.

Parcher

01-27-2010, 03:00 PM

O I'll say this before a shit storm, I don't have more testing with LED dredge the parcher but I had a YEAR of testing with that as my main deck but shifted my deck for the meta but I know I have more testing with LEDless dredge then you parcher.

How do you know how much I've tested anything? Or how much I've played it? I certainly wouldn't make the same assumptions about someone I don't know.I just posted my results. Is there another reason you feel the need to compare your experience with the deck to mine?

Regardless, what difference does it make? Nassif probably had less experience with Legacy CounterTop than 99% of others playing it at Chicago. He still won the whole thing. Results are what matter. You can play the same deck 100 times a day for five years. That doesn't mean you have any idea how to do so correctly.

ktkenshinx

01-27-2010, 03:07 PM

Game 2/3 board out 3 sharuum, 1 alter, 4 breakthrough for 2 tribes, 1 Iona, 1 chosen, 4 hate cards..
Is that so hard??
Leave in sharuum vs the match-ups its needed in.
The problem is simple. In the matchups that Sharuum is helpful, it turns out to be, well, not that helpful. It forces you to overcommit in your dredging and discarding in order to assemble your combo pieces, a cardinal sin against decks that can wipe out a graveyard. When Lands/Enchantress boards in its graveyard hate in games 2 and 3, then you are left with two options. Either remove the Sharuum combo and switch to something more conventional, in which case, there was no point in including it in the first place. Alternately, you can leave the combo in the deck and open yourself up to hatred. Ichorid is fairly resilient in its current incarnation. Sharuum encourages overextension, which is the best way to throw away that resilience.

I can see the flaws as all of you can but with probably more games played and definitely more tournament plays than all of you I don't disregard an idea because you all say it doesn't sound good..
How many GAME ONE's did you mulligan to either a slow hand or had a break through or study forced and your slowly dredging once a turn.
1. You keep condescendingly mentioning this to experienced players. First of all, it is ineffective, as many of us have had ample tournament experience. Second of all, you neglect to actually mention any of your own testing results with Sharuum, whereas a number of players have continued to offer evidence opposed to Sharuum's inclusion. You continue to offer theoretical examples of Sharuum's effectiveness, which is countered time and time again by evidence-based examples of its ineffectiveness.
2. If you are slowly dredging once a turn, then how is Sharuum going to help you? If anything, it decreases your chances of winning the first game, because you need to slowly dredge into more cards. You can't just slow dredge into one Sharuum. You have to dredge into 2, plus a Bridge, plus a DR! If you can manage that, then you might as well stick with the conventional Ichorid dredge strategy.

I would be willing to listen and consider an evidence-based discussion of Sharuum combo in this deck, as would, I imagine, other players. But currently this is not happening. Just because a combo is cool and just because you personally have wedded yourself to its inclusion does not mean it is good. Not by a long shot.

The bottom line remains. By adding Sharuum you willingly forgo the Iona/Hypnotist/FKZ slots. That effectively neuters the random "Dread Return --> I win" factor of the deck. If you have to wait for 2 Sharuum's and a Bridge to get into your yard, you are losing valuable time against your opponent in an effort to do something cool and flashy, but ultimately no less effective than a standard dredge and beat routine.

Frogboy: I agree with your assessment of the situation. It is quite a corner case.

-ktkenshinx-

jimirynk

01-27-2010, 03:12 PM

How do you know how much I've tested anything? Or how much I've played it? I certainly wouldn't make the same assumptions about someone I don't know.I just posted my results. Is there another reason you feel the need to compare your experience with the deck to mine?

Regardless, what difference does it make? Nassif probably had less experience with Legacy CounterTop than 99% of others playing it at Chicago. He still won the whole thing. Results are what matter. You can play the same deck 100 times a day for five years. That doesn't mean you have any idea how to do so correctly.

Have you ever ONCE done well with LEDless dredge in a tornament?
Than how do you know your doing it correctly?

The problem is simple. In the matchups that Sharuum is helpful, it turns out to be, well, not that helpful. It forces you to overcommit in your dredging and discarding in order to assemble your combo pieces, a cardinal sin against decks that can wipe out a graveyard. When Lands/Enchantress boards in its graveyard hate in games 2 and 3, then you are left with two options. Either remove the Sharuum combo and switch to something more conventional, in which case, there was no point in including it in the first place. Alternately, you can leave the combo in the deck and open yourself up to hatred. Ichorid is fairly resilient in its current incarnation. Sharuum encourages overextension, which is the best way to throw away that resilience.

Lands and enchantress bring in ENCHANTMENT cards, I.e leyline, wheel of sun and moon and planer void you WANT to over extend into the graveyard vs. both these decks.

I'll respond more later I have to run.

Parcher

01-27-2010, 03:27 PM

Have you ever ONCE done well with LEDless dredge in a tornament?
Than how do you know your doing it correctly?.

Have I? How would you know? Have you? Who cares?

This is an INTERNET FORUM. It's a mostly anonymous place for people to share ideas. No one cares what you think you might have accomplished, only about the ieas you post here. Posting awful ideas, continuing to try to reason for them in the face of contradicting fact, then attacking the people who disagree might be entertaining for you, but it won't lend any more weight to your claims.

jimirynk

01-27-2010, 05:16 PM

Have I? How would you know? Have you? Who cares?

This is an INTERNET FORUM. It's a mostly anonymous place for people to share ideas. No one cares what you think you might have accomplished, only about the ieas you post here. Posting awful ideas, continuing to try to reason for them in the face of contradicting fact, then attacking the people who disagree might be entertaining for you, but it won't lend any more weight to your claims.

I have said numerous times that Sharuum isn't the only correct way to play this deck but I have also listed why you might play it and supported my statements by saying I will test this deck and run it through a tornament.

I am not attacking people that don't agree, I'm disagreeing with everyone who says sharuum is bad until I test enough to come to MY OWN conclusion.

Parcher if everyone told you unmask was bad and careful study was better would you just drop the idea of unmask or would you test the card till you realize it is better and say SCREW everyone's opinion because at the end of the day your still better than 95% of people that post on this site.

@Frogboy

Do you have a list?

Pulp_Fiction

01-27-2010, 05:29 PM

I don't see any benefits .... at all of playing Sharuum. Unless you play in a meta that is 80% Lands! and Enchantress decks (in which case you should play storm combo) there is not a single reason to play it aside from the cool factor. It does nothing against hate, takes up slots, makes you more reliant on dredges, and occassionally doesn't win the game immediately. It even takes up more slots that 1x FKZ and 1x Sphinx. And if you run it in the board so you can actually have a shot at beating Enchantress or Lands! then other matchups will suffer since you just took up 3-5 slots in the board. I can't see any reason to play this at all. Seems like someone is trying to solve a problem that isn't even a problem ...

jimirynk

01-27-2010, 05:49 PM

Losing to MD hate cards isn't a problem?

I mean I know this sounds blah (one reason is because everyone's shitting on it) but do you win 80% of game ones?

What is that 20% your losing to?

Now will that 80% increase or decrease with Sharuum MD?

I don't see it going down game 1 I see it either staying the same or maybe increasing do to it improving 2 of our bad MU's.

How many of you less then a month ago cut all DR targets from the main, why?

Bc this deck can win game 1 without DR anything.. The DR targets are outs to situations you were going to lose otherwise.

Now how can you fit 2 more cards into the deck without hurting the game one win percentages.

Still I'm not saying this is correct but I'm testing this so I know for myself the answers to these questions.

Parcher

01-27-2010, 07:26 PM

Look, I like the idea. A lot. So much that I bugged the hell out of my teammates running ideas and testing by them. The bottom line was that I couldn't make it better, even in game one against Lands etc., than current versions. This is what I know. Stating that you know more, or have tested more than me is not going to change my opinion, just like none of this is changing your opinion. But if you are so set on your own testing that you aren't interested in other's ideas and experiences on the subject, honestly, why bring it up?

jimirynk

01-27-2010, 07:31 PM

I post everything I do with the deck, keep it all on file plus a lot of people read this and make decisions for themselves.

kicks_422

01-27-2010, 08:18 PM

I've always wanted a kill with this deck that doesn't require an attack phase, for all the reasons that have been mentioned, and also to give the deck some versatility. I've even tried Kamahl, Pit Fighter to deal the last few points of damage upon the opponent casting a Propaganda or whatever. I'm stll on the fence regarding the Sharuum kill, but at the very least, I think it adds a dimension to the deck that it hasn't had before.

ktkenshinx

01-28-2010, 12:42 AM

I fully agree that Sharuum does get around one problem: winning without attacking. Unfortunately, it is highly slow and cumbersome in Ichorid, for all those reasons already mentioned. Thankfully, there might be some better options. Two come to mind, one of them admittedly better than the other.

1. Hasty Leviathan (Second-best idea)
Kederekt Leviathan 6UU
Creature — Leviathan
When Kederekt Leviathan enters the battlefield, return all other nonland permanents to their owners' hands.
Unearth 6Blue (6Blue: Return this card from your graveyard to the battlefield. It gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step or if it would leave the battlefield. Unearth only as a sorcery.)
5 / 5

Dragon Breath (Ala Cephalid Breakfast fame)

Here's how this one works. Dread Return the Leviathan. You control both the CIP triggers for Dragon Breath and Leviathan, so put the Breath on the stack first with the bounce on top of it. Bounce resolves, getting rid of all those nasty enchantments and creatures, and then Breath attaches to the Leviathan. You swing for 5. Then you flashback Therapy on your Leviathan, naming all of the problematic cards that have just returned to your opponent's hand.
Advantages: If the opponent has a lot of artifact/enchantment mana sources that have been powering his deck, then he might not be able to recast all of his cards for next turn. If your opponent has been relying on a few threats, then you can discard them forever.
Disadvantages: Only deals 5 damage. Destroys all your hard won Bridge tokens. If the opponent has more threats than you have Therapy, he can recast his cards (like Elephant Grass, Moat, Confinement), then this is only a temporary solution to a persistent problem. Need both Breath and Leviathan in the yard.
Overall: A decent plan if your opponent is locking you down with only one or two cards. The more hatred, however, the less effective this combo is.

2. Furystoke Giant
Furystoke Giant 3RR
Creature — Giant Warrior
When Furystoke Giant enters the battlefield, other creatures you control gain "Tap: This creature deals 2 damage to target creature or player" until end of turn.
Persist (When this creature is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.)
3 / 3

Giant is a much better solution to the problem of winning without attacking. Unlike Leviathan, Giant has exceptional synergy with your bridge tokens, Narco's, Ichorids, Ghasts, etc. It also is useful in more matchups. You can tap your guys to destroy opposing hordes if you are out of range of just outright killing your opponent.
Giant gets exceptionally nutty with Greater Gargodon in the board (for the control matchup). You can sacrifice the Giant as an instant, in response to anything that your opponent does. This will immediately bring him back into play courtesy of Persist, giving all of your Zombies and friends the damage ability. This can be invaluable. Consider a Lands opponent with Glacial Chasm. It is customary to forgo the Chasm upkeep cost, because you can Loam it back later. But if in response to his failure to pay the cost you bring back Giant, you can immediately throw logs at him to death (or whatever it is that the Giant causes your creatures to do)
Advantages: All those listed above.
Disadvantages: Requires other creatures to already be in play. Only circumvents Chasm/Confinement when you have Gargadon as an instant sacrifice outlet.
Overall: This is an extremely strong inclusion to Ichorid lists. It gives you a scary bag of tricks for use in a lot of difficult matchups, most specifically Lands (courtesy of Chasm) and Enchantress (Moat and such).

I have not tested these yet, although I imagine that the Giant strategy has a lot of potential and power in the deck. It only takes up one more slot and is helpful in all matchups. I will test this idea and give more thoughts later.

-ktkenshinx-

Mark Sun

01-28-2010, 01:20 AM

2. Furystoke Giant

I don't normally post here, but I saw this post about Furystoke Giant. I played him in LED-version, replacing the Woodfall Primus slot of my SB (the utility slot that is also reserved for Angel of Despair, etc). I realize that you don't combo out so quickly, so it's great to take advantage of this guy. I personally think he's a great inclusion if you want something techy, but never got to fully utilize him in the LED-version (too fast / hit or miss to take full advantage). Anyhow, it's a great find.

Sevryn

01-28-2010, 03:40 AM

I don't see it going down game 1 I see it either staying the same or maybe increasing do to it improving 2 of our bad MU's.Maybe Sharuum belongs in the sideboard?

How many of you less then a month ago cut all DR targets from the main, why?Probably like... two people did this. As for why, it increases consistency at the cost of not having an "oops I win" scenario, but bringing back a 20/20 grave-troll wins 90% of the games that bringing back FKZ wins. You lose the Iona lock, but again, you gain consistency.

Still I'm not saying this is correct but I'm testing this so I know for myself the answers to these questions.
At least you are trying to appear reasonable. You should at least try to show Parcher some respect, he's done a lot for the Legacy Dredge archetype. Maybe actually read what he posted:

I won't say it's awful, but it is worse. Worse than LED-less, far worse than LED, and about equal with Bloodghast builds. While it solves some problems, they are not problems that cannot be raced by the LED version. While it can be removed for slots post-board, these slots are far inferior to the post-board plan of the LED-less version. It also does create some vulnerabilities, due to the necessary recursion, to creature and artifact removal that is not normally relevant. The Ichorid version could still lose to creature removal during upkeep, and the Bloodghast version could still lose to problems with not having a replayable land; since this version is almost entirely dependant on combo-ing off.

But basically, it's too slow and clunky.

As for saying more stuff about running Sharuum:

-Running the package you indicated (3 Sharuum/1 Altar/1 Portal) is 5 slots, compared to the ~2 slots for DR targets most decks run. This means cutting 3 other cards, and this WILL hurt your consistency. There's no way to argue it won't. If you could find a smaller package to run, it would be very helpful. Something like... 2 Sharuum/1 Altar instead. This gives the deck the option to go infinite and mill the opponent, which is probably the main reason to run Sharuum in the first place.

-Sharuum looks MUCH better in LED Dredge, for the obvious reason that it runs LED. This gives 4 more artifacts you can target with Sharuum, making it easier to DR it without first Dredging 2/3 of your library. With LED-less Dredge, there's no artifacts to target outside of whatever DR suite you choose to run, so again, this hurts consistency. And as Parcher said, LED Dredge runs just fine without Sharuum.

pippo84

01-28-2010, 07:51 AM

I will give my idea on Sharuum (or whatever it's spelled).
I like the idea a lot and will try it but I am not sure if it's what is needed to improve the deck.
The mill combo helps to win through Elephant Grass, Moat and Ghastly Prison, but doesn't help against gy hate..
But it's really cool!
Both LED and LED-less moved to dtw!

ktkenshinx

01-28-2010, 11:19 AM

I tested a series of games (not on MWS) using the Sharuum and Furystoke versions of the deck. The Furystoke version is absurdly simple; I cut one of the two DR target slots (Hypnotist and FKZ) for a Furystoke. The Sharuum version was a little more problematic, as I had to cut both of my DR target slots, as well as a lone Therapy, bringing the count down from 4 to 3.

I played 10 games each in our "problem" matches, both Enchantress, Stax, and Lands. These are the decks that consistently get out enchantments, artifacts, or lands that slow you down and shut you out. The results are telling.

Furystoke
Enchantress: 8 wins, 2 losses
Stax: 7 wins, 3 losses
Lands: 6 wins, 4 losses

Sharuum
Enchantress: 4 wins, 6 losses
Stax: 2 wins, 8 losses
Lands: 5 wins, 5 losses

Now, I understand that these results are not statistically significant, given the small sample size. They are, however, informative. I continually encountered one problem with Sharuum; getting 4 cards in the yard consistently. This was particularly problematic against the Stax build I tested against, running not only Ghostly Prison but also Bujoka Bog (The new worldwake card) and Tormod's Crypt. Smokestack, Crucible, and Bog is a nasty combo against Dredge, and it really eliminates all hope of fancy combo shennanigans. I had a bit more success with getting the combo off against Enchantress, but this would sometimes lead to disaster. At one point, with 2 Sharuum's in the yard but still no Altar, I had a Wheel dropped on me. If I had just relied on a single DR target, I could have won. By relying on 2, in addition to 2 other cards, I pidgeon-holed my options.
Furystoke, on the other hand, worked brilliantly. I could slowly build up Narco's, Ghasts, PImps, and Zombies, letting my opponent waste their GY hate on me turn by turn. Once Furystoke hit the yard and I discarded a DR, the game was over to a 24 damage tapping session. This was repeated in at least a dozen of the games. It allows you to play a control role NOT just a combo role. It allows you to be consistent and slow, taking your time to win. It does not rely on a full graveyard. It circumvents most of Enchantress's/Stax's/Lands' tools.

I strongly urge all of you to give Furystoke a serious try. He is an impressive addition to the deck, whether sideboarded or even maindeck.

-ktkenshinx-

jimirynk

01-28-2010, 12:22 PM

Sharuum is ONLY a smart plan G1..
I have said this time and time again, that is just common sense except for against lands/enchantress.
How I don't really get how Furystoke won you more games vs. land then sharuum, all you have to do is dredge untill the combo is intact in your yard then win?
How does Furystoke help in the land MU? Furystoke doesn't get around Tabernacle..

I've tested Kederekt Leviathan with decent results.

Joe_C

01-28-2010, 12:40 PM

Deck to beat?
Bring the hate.

Sadly the hate is pretty much why I havent played Ichorid at my past 3 tournaments. Goblins seems way more suitable in my meta...... Although I love taking back ichorids like a fiend.......
Maybe next time just for kicks

ktkenshinx

01-28-2010, 02:46 PM

How I don't really get how Furystoke won you more games vs. land then sharuum, all you have to do is dredge untill the combo is intact in your yard then win?
How does Furystoke help in the land MU? Furystoke doesn't get around Tabernacle..

Bloodghast and Ichorid both have haste (Bloodghast in most situations, at least). Most games it takes Lands at least a few turns to get a Tabernacle into play, by which time you can probably bring them down to 10 life, assuming that you are on the play. This gives you 7-8 hasted creatures automatically, assuming you don't pay a single upkeep on any creatures. You can reliably pay the upkeep on at least 2 creatures, for instance, a single PImp and maybe a token. That gives you anywhere between 7-10 creatures that can tap to use Furystoke's ability. Even in an absurdly conservative scenario, you can still probably get 5 creatures to use his ability. Assuming you had just Ichorids and a PImp/Token, that is still 10 damage, and assuming you have gotten a few attacks in, that is enough to bring your opponent to zero.
This is especially true because you can use the Furystoke twice in consecutive turns. Even if you only had 4 creatures that could tap on any given turn (2 Ichorids, 1 Ghast, 1 PImp, for instance), that is still 16 damage over two turns.

Again, Furystoke is nastiest with Gargadon, which is in and of itself an excellent sideboard option in certain matchups. Furystoke may not be the best route for stopping Lands, given Tabernacle AND Chasm, but it is extremely powerful in the Enchantress matchup, as well as quite effective in others.

-ktkenshinx-

NQN

01-29-2010, 05:47 AM

First time LEDless in a tournament, 16 Players:
R1: Elves 2-1 5 Mulligans
R2: RGW Zoo 2-0
R3: CT 2-0 2 Mulligans g1, zero g2 because I was on the draw and he mulled
R4: RB goblins 2-0 he had 4 Extirpates and 4 Relics but played horrible so I won 3 Mulligans

Had many bad openers, rarely had more than 2 Spells to cast and never felt the "consistency" I read about. Dunno, I´m probably just the wrong person for this :(

Aleksandr

01-29-2010, 09:23 AM

Herudaio

01-29-2010, 11:57 AM

mercc

01-30-2010, 04:14 PM

@ ktkenshinx : But if enchantress plays solitary confinement then the game is over for furystoke, but not sharuum, im not saying the sharuumcombo is good, but still.

Raptor

01-30-2010, 04:18 PM

I've been playing LED-version for long time.
Recently switched to LEDless since I aquired Paradises.
But I came to problem that I have big troubles siding with LEDless build.
What do you side out for what in?

It's pretty hard to answer this, and many other questions on the topic because you're not even saying what your list looks like.
Are you running bloodghast, what's your sideboard, etc...

jimirynk

02-01-2010, 04:31 PM

Has anyone gave thought to
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAG_WWK/NaturesClaim.jpg

ktkenshinx

02-01-2010, 04:45 PM

Nature's Claim is incredibly awesome, and I have been testing it as a possible supplement (and even replacement [!!]) to Chain of Vapor. Both cards deal with roughly the same threats, cost the same mana, and are instant speed. The key differences are that Claim cannot bounce your own discard outlet or DR target, and Claim cannot bounce opposing creatures like Blazing Archon. I am not too concerned about the Archon, as even reanimator strategies find better targets than him.

Here are the cards that Chain/Claim would reasonably be used to deal with.
1. Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus
Advantage: Claim
Chain is only a temporary solution to these problems. Unless you can follow up with a Therapy, look forward to seeing it again next turn.
2. Leyline of the Void
Advantage: Claim
Can't be recast on turn 3 off of a birds/elves/mox.
3. Elephant Grass/Moat/Solitary Confinement
Advantage: Claim
Opponent cannot recast their card the following turn.
4. Chalice of the Void/Trinisphere
Advantage: Claim
Same as with Crypt and Relic. Chain is a temporary solution. Claim is not.
5. Reanimator Strategies
Advantage: Chain
If you get into a scary race against a Reanimator deck, especially one using Sphinx with lifelink or Archon for attack suppression, then Claim won't help too much.
6. G vs. U
Advantage: Chain
You cannot cast Claim off of a Cephalid Colosseum, which can sometimes force you to mulligan away an otherwise excellent hand, owing to inability to deal with threats.

Overall Claim is an excellent addition to Dredge. Sadly, it is shut down by Chalice at 1, which just means that you need to run Ingot Chewer as well, if this is concerning to you. I strongly endorse including 3-4 of them in the sideboard. While I am not fully comfortable with the wholesale replacement of Chain of Vapor, Claim might be a serious contender for that spot; both cards do virtually the same thing in virtually all matchups. Yes, Chain is more versatile in its targets, but a permanent solution to Artifacts and Enchantments, instead of a temporary one, is too good to pass up.

-ktkenshinx-

kicks_422

02-01-2010, 05:19 PM

I've been mulling over Nature's Claim as well. While the versatility of Chain of Vapor is very valuable, Nature's Claim deals with just about everything else you need to deal with post-SB. You already mentioned most of what I was thinking, but I just want to add that it could be at times redundant with Ancient Grudge. It's a much, much better answer to Leyline than Chain though.

Another thing I've been mulling about is my boarding strategy, which would surely change with Claim replacing Chain. I usually board in 4 Chains in Game 2 if I'm not sure what type of hate the opponent wil bring in, then switch to Grudges if they brought in Crypt/Relic. I'm thinking if I already board in the 4 Claims in Game 2, will I even think of needing Grudges still in Game 3? That's what I need to test more, personally.

Preliminarily, I'm thinking an SB of..

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
4 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Furystoke Giant

fyrisen

02-01-2010, 06:48 PM

If you get into a scary race against a Reanimator deck, especially one using Sphinx with lifelink or Archon for attack suppression, then Claim won't help too much.

Great explenation on every threat, just one thing. The Sphinx is an artifact creature! Which makes Natures Claim even more awesome. For Blazing Archon you can just use the Furystoke as you explained in an earlier post.

kicks_422

02-01-2010, 07:02 PM

It has protection from Green though.

The more I think about it, the less I feel comfortable about getting rid of Chain of Vapor in the SB. Especially in a wide-open metagame, the amount of hate that you could see is just very diverse.

I listed all the possible hate cards and the top two/three SB cards to fight against them. Perhaps you guys can help me out with this so we can figure out what we can do with Claim.

Crypt/Relic - Grudge, Claim, Needle
Leyline - Claim, Wispmare
Jailer - Firestorm, Darkblast
Wretch - Needle, Firestorm
Propaganda/Prison/Moat/Wheel of Sun and Moon, Planar Void - Claim, Wispmare
Blazing Archon - Chain
Mogg Fanatic - Firestorm, Needle

While Chain is almost never one of the best answers, it can answer all of them on a limited level. Hmmm.

BreathWeapon

02-02-2010, 02:57 AM

Nature's Claim is easily better than Chain of Vapor, aside from the irrelevant argument than Chain of Vapor targets a bunch of cards nobody actually boards, the only thing Chain of Vapor really has going for it is that it's U instead of G and thus it's usable with Cephalid Coliseum.

Seriously, all I ever used Chain of Vapor for was Leyline of the Void, Nature's Claim is like way better - god I wish it was a Sorcery too.

kicks_422

02-02-2010, 08:19 AM

Nature's Claim is easily better than Chain of Vapor, aside from the irrelevant argument than Chain of Vapor targets a bunch of cards nobody actually boards..

That's true. However, Chain of Vapor is, as I mentioned, a catch-all (although weak) answer to practically everything. Boarding in the wrong anti-hate cards in Game 2 would be much more common without Chain in the SB.

AngryTroll

02-02-2010, 08:31 AM

That's true. However, Chain of Vapor is, as I mentioned, a catch-all (although weak) answer to practically everything. Boarding in the wrong anti-hate cards in Game 2 would be much more common without Chain in the SB.

The only thing Chain catches games two and three that Claim does not is a couple of Reanimator creatures and Yixlid Jailer. Jailer doesn't see nearly enough play to warrent the slots, and Firestorm is already a fine sideboard card. That leaves just a few reanimator creatures that Chain of Vapor handles better than Nature's Claim.

Some combination of Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation, Firespout, and maybe some other stuff can all take up sideboard slots. I'll probably be running:
3 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
4 Firestorm
1 FKZ
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Ancestor's Chosen
That's still too many cards against artifacts; there just isn't enough room to board out six cards game two.

NQN

02-02-2010, 10:11 AM

I don´t think that you need to board out 6 cards. If you expet the usual 3 relic 1 crypt package you just go for Grudges, but if you face black or an unknown deck you just go for Claim and change for g3 if needed. Looks fine to me :)

FKZ and Sage in the SB are horrible. They aren´t even good enough for our MD...I´d go for -1 Ray +4Leyline instead. THe mirror is coming up more often nowadays.

Wargoos

02-02-2010, 10:42 AM

ktkenshinx

02-02-2010, 10:57 AM

That's true. However, Chain of Vapor is, as I mentioned, a catch-all (although weak) answer to practically everything. Boarding in the wrong anti-hate cards in Game 2 would be much more common without Chain in the SB.
While CoV is a catch all, most of the time you can reasonably predict what your opponent is going to board in. I always assume that in any given matchup I will face 3 Relic/Crypt and 2 Traps in games 2 and 3, if the opponent is not playing any serious black. If black is a feature of their deck, I assume that Leyline will be brought in. In both of these scenarios, which are quite common and easily related to by probably most players here, Claim would be superior to Chain. This is especially true in the Leyline matchup, because most decks that use Leyline can recast it a turn or two after it is bounced.

In the Enchantress and Stax matchup, Claim is quite clearly superior to Chain. These decks use extremely annoying and powerful threats, and it is imperative that they be removed permanently, not temporarily. Claim allows you to do that, while Chain just sort of flounders around in that department. If we were to do a comprehensive examination of graveyard hatred in the sideboards (a project that is currently in the works for a pending article on another site), then we would find that the most common hate by leagues is a) Relic, b) Crypt, c) Trap, and d) Leyline. These cards are all better dealt with using Claim, not Chain. Yes, there are some hate cards that Chain might be better against. Jotun Grunt comes to mind, as does Withered Wretch and Jailer. But these cards are few and far between. Really, really few and far between. Claim is, statistically speaking, the better bet for games 2 and 3.

AngryTroll: The only creatures that should be in the board are as follows

1 Realm Razer: Without Razer, you essentially scoop to Lands and Chasm recursion.
1 Furystoke Giant: A single slot addition that gives you huge amounts of game against Enchantress and Stax. Instead of having to blow up a bunch of Elephant Grass and Moats to attack, all you need to do is Claim/Wispmare the Solitary Confinement to get some serious pinging salvos in.

Even Ancestor's Chosen, a relevant card in the ANT matchup and against aggro, is subpar in the board. Therapy and cards like Dispel (from Worldwake), Nix, FoW, and even Unmask (which admittedly is a subpar card in this deck, a point which I will happily argue) are equally effective in the ANT matchup. Firestorm and your innate speed are better tools in the aggro matchup.

-ktkenshinx-

NQN

02-02-2010, 02:12 PM

Mind posting your whole LEDless list?
Would appreciate it.

Nothing special:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [OV] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 [OD] Tireless Tribe
1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [OD] Careful Study

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void (testslot since I´ve got the space)
SB: 1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
SB: 3 Natures Claim

I´m still pondering wether to play this or LEDIchorid at Madrid :rolleyes:

AcidFiend

02-02-2010, 04:18 PM

Can't Lands.dec pop Barbarian Ring with Realm Razer's ETB ability on the stack? I guess its better than nothing though.

kicks_422

02-02-2010, 06:33 PM

While CoV is a catch all, most of the time you can reasonably predict what your opponent is going to board in. I always assume that in any given matchup I will face 3 Relic/Crypt and 2 Traps in games 2 and 3, if the opponent is not playing any serious black. If black is a feature of their deck, I assume that Leyline will be brought in. In both of these scenarios, which are quite common and easily related to by probably most players here, Claim would be superior to Chain. This is especially true in the Leyline matchup, because most decks that use Leyline can recast it a turn or two after it is bounced.

I do agree with all the points you've made. I just want to be prepared for everything. It's more of a personal quirk than a metagame decision. :D I guess I'll have to set it aside though, and go with the SB I posted a page back.

Wargoos

02-02-2010, 07:26 PM

Nothing special:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [OV] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 [OD] Tireless Tribe
1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [OD] Careful Study

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void (testslot since I´ve got the space)
SB: 1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
SB: 3 Natures Claim

I´m still pondering wether to play this or LEDIchorid at Madrid :rolleyes:

Since I'm pretty nooby with this deck being a beginner, I gladly take advises and your lists as initial points. Thanks.
We cool.

PS: Take the LED- version - a gut feeling...

jimirynk

02-02-2010, 07:35 PM

Can't Lands.dec pop Barbarian Ring with Realm Razer's ETB ability on the stack? I guess its better than nothing though.

If they do that lands never return.

Anusien

02-02-2010, 07:59 PM

I think it's important to think about sideboard cards in the context of which they're going to see play. Technically Nature's Claim is better against Crypt/Relic/Leyline than Chain of Vapor, but I find that the decks that play Crypt and Relic don't play Leyline. So I run Ancient Grudge in my sideboard instead. The decks that run Leyline tend to be decks like Aggro Loam that also run Chalice, so I also run Serenity against them instead of Nature's Claim. Incidentally, consider Bringer of the White Dawn as a sideboard card against Enchantress How likely is it you can get Bringer to stick around 1 turn? Not likely, but worth considering.

I also specialize a bit more; I find the only decks that run Trap are decks that run Sensei's Divining Top to float it with. They run a mix of Trap, Crypt and Relic, so I run Null Rod.

Nature's Claim is very very interesting, no lie. But I think that just running generalized anti-hate cards makes poor use of your sideboard space.

AngryTroll

02-02-2010, 09:23 PM

What I think is very interesting about Nature's Claim is that it will almost always have targets game two, so siding in a few is not a bad plan. While being useful against Crypt and Relic (although not as good as Ancient Grudge), it also prevents you from being blown out by a Leyline you didn't see coming. Boarding in a mix of Claim and Ancient Grudge against a deck that runs black seems more versatile than just boarding in Grudges. I'm not sure if that makes it good enough to run, but it's certainly interesting.

Pulp_Fiction

02-03-2010, 02:34 AM

But is it better than Ancient Grudge? Not really, Grudge doesn't even have to be in your hand to be effective. You HAVE to have this in your opening hand for it to be good, which means you have to run it as a 4-of. Now, I really like the card, I still prefer Chain of Vapor, but I like Nature's Claim. Especially since it seemilngly will take slots from Gridge and Wispmare, both of which I feel are superior. There is no argument from me that its good, but between: Grudge, Wispmare, Firestorm, and 3-4 other cards (depending on the numbers of of the previous mentioned cards) why would this be better than something like Chain of Vapor on that slot? It answers anything (even Jailer should someone be playing it) and keeps you prepared for anything, and after game 2, should you lose, you know which cards to board in if you would rather have something that isn't Chain.

Anusien

02-03-2010, 02:47 AM

It's better than Chain of Vapor because sometimes they recast the Chain of Vapor'ed card.

SlopeeJ

02-03-2010, 02:54 AM

I think it has already been discussed, but lets go through it again. Chain of vapor doesn't answer any of the graveyard hate and since most people say running the zealot/sphinx is bad then I don't even see how chain is any good at all if you take the combo out of the deck. Which btw, how can taking the combo out of a combo deck not be bad? In your example you say chain answers Jailer (anything) explain how that is possible? Chain doesn't answer jailer, you bounce it and they play it again. Chain is in the sb to bounce leyline and anybody who puts chain in vs jailer is just wrong, there are better cards to answer leyline such as wispmare and now Charm. Chain is a sb card for vintage and LED dredge where they can win right there after the bounce, we have lands for a reason which is to play spells and we can actually have hard counters for hate.

In a tourney we only have 15 cards and why not have answers for the 99% of the graveyard hate such as artifacts and enchantments, instead of cards that might be good? Is the argument that you have to have it in your hand even a valid argument? Don't you have to have chain in your hand to use it? How is ancient grudge any good if you don't have it in your hand when they start with a relic in play. The whole point of putting in anti hate cards is so you have them to fight the hate.

Now we can have 4 cards in our sb that actually answer the most popular hate??? Now you can bring in 6-8 cards and be able to fight all the hate out there instead of playing the guessing game. I would even say that 99% of the hate are artifacts so you can still bring in your grudge/needles and then throw in some charms to have extra answers.

ktkenshinx

02-03-2010, 03:16 AM

But is it better than Ancient Grudge? Not really, Grudge doesn't even have to be in your hand to be effective. You HAVE to have this in your opening hand for it to be good, which means you have to run it as a 4-of.
This is a legitimate concern for any and all sideboard cards: can the card be cast from your graveyard? In the case of Claim, the answer is no. Then again, in the case of Chain, the answer is also no. So on the question of Chain vs. Claim, the "castable from graveyard" contest is a total wash. As this is indeed the question at hand, then we must move on to other qualifications, as this one is inconclusive.

There is no argument from me that its good, but between: Grudge, Wispmare, Firestorm, and 3-4 other cards (depending on the numbers of of the previous mentioned cards) why would this be better than something like Chain of Vapor on that slot? It answers anything (even Jailer should someone be playing it) and keeps you prepared for anything, and after game 2, should you lose, you know which cards to board in if you would rather have something that isn't Chain.
As said by me earlier, as well as Anusien and a few others, bounced threats are recastable. This is particularly problematic against Leyline. Decks that play Leyline tend to be able to also cast Leyline, in the event that it is bounced or not in your opening hand. Moreover, they tend to be able to recast it immediately. This makes Chain subpar against this enchantment. The same strikes naturally go against Chain when it comes to Crypt, Relic, Stax cards, and Enchantress cards; the opponent will just recast his cards the following turn. Claim permanently removes these threats. This is a huge advantage over Chain.
A number of players have mentioned that Chain deals with "Everything", and then includes cards like Jailer, Blazing Archon, and Jotun Grunt. Yes, these cards do exist in the Legacy metagame, but they are extremely rare. You are far, far more likely to encounter artifact and enchantment based hatred. Claim is superior to Chain when it comes to dealing with this overtly prevalent hatred.

As AngryTroll said, Claim is always relevant in games 2 and 3. Sure, Chain is always relevant as well, just by virtue of its card text. Claim, however, gains its relevance because it targets important threats, not just random cards. Chain might bounce a Goyf now and then, but that does not make it a relevant and powerful card. Claim specifically deals with the most likely threats, as well as any maindecked artifacts and enchantments that your opponent might be packing.

-ktkenshinx-

Shugyosha

02-03-2010, 12:44 PM

As AngryTroll said, Claim is always relevant in games 2 and 3. Sure, Chain is always relevant as well, just by virtue of its card text. Claim, however, gains its relevance because it targets important threats, not just random cards. Chain might bounce a Goyf now and then, but that does not make it a relevant and powerful card. Claim specifically deals with the most likely threats, as well as any maindecked artifacts and enchantments that your opponent might be packing.

As with current sideboards you usually board in Chain as flexible answer to specific hate, Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation (if played) cannot deal with. You never board Chain to bounce stuff like Tarmogoyf.

Chain is said to be able to deal with almost everything because in most of the cases it is absolutely no problem to Flashback a Therapy for the bounced card. If you board Chains and have one in your opening hand you play more carefully with Therapy but sometimes it doesn't even matter as one turn is enough. Creatures like Jailer or Blazing Archon and Iona (B) from Reanimator demand for an answer no matter what it is, folding to these cards is not acceptable when it is easy to deal with them. Chains are the least boarded cards in my board but most of the times I boarded them they won the game by dealing with hoser creatures.

Raptor

02-03-2010, 01:23 PM

In what you're saying is that claim is better against enchantress/stax/leyline, but these match ups are SO rare and even decks packing leyline of the void seem to be rarer. In about 100 tournament matches, I've encounter 2-3 deck packing leyline and maybe 2 stax and 0 enchantress. Stax and enchantress rarely make top 8 of big tournament (I know, enchantress won a SCG event, but still). And you are still forgetting that stax runs 4x chalice and 4x trinisphere which will make you claim really hard to cast. And I'm also pretty sure that we are a bye for enchanter no matter if you run claim or not. You probally won't draw enough claim for all their stuff.

If you want hate agaisnt leyline, you'll be definitly better with either wishmare or ray of the relevations. If you really fear leyline go with these, otherwise, you should be fine with chain of vapor. It deals with random stuff that you can come across in tournament such as grunt, Jailer, magus of the moat/tarbernacle, blazing archon etc and it's still pretty decent agaisnt leyline. Yes, they will be able to recast it but it should give you plently of time to recover and get the board advantage, not to mention you can therapy what you bounced.
I don't understand why you say that they can recast crypt or relic because you shouldn't have sided in Chain or clasm if their only have is crypt or relic. Also, grudge is a LOT better in this situation.

I also don't understand why you would side in Claim game 2 except if you expect Leyline. It's SUBOPTIMAL to side in claim "just in case", you should side in Grudge game 2. Loosing game 2 to random hate is much better then screwing a part of your engine because you sided in too much card or a bad one in the situation because you don't have it in your hand(claim). You should accept to loose game 2 to random hate and be prepared for G3 with either chain or claim, and chain deals with much more stuff, not to mention that chain can be cast off a cephalid coliseum.
Also, WTF with the tarmogoyf argument... If chain just bounced a Tarmogoyf, what would have a Claim have done this situation ? Poop in your hand while you miserably loose to Tarmogoyf ?

TL;DR Running Claim in the slot of Chain means that you will most likely loose to random hate while chain will still be good versus leyline. Plus, I hardly doubt 1 or 2 claims will be enough versus enchantress , stax got Magus of the tabernacle that could be painfull and they have chalice and trinisphere anyway.

This is a legitimate concern for any and all sideboard cards: can the card be cast from your graveyard? In the case of Claim, the answer is no. Then again, in the case of Chain, the answer is also no. So on the question of Chain vs. Claim, the "castable from graveyard" contest is a total wash. As this is indeed the question at hand, then we must move on to other qualifications, as this one is inconclusive.

As said by me earlier, as well as Anusien and a few others, bounced threats are recastable. This is particularly problematic against Leyline. Decks that play Leyline tend to be able to also cast Leyline, in the event that it is bounced or not in your opening hand. Moreover, they tend to be able to recast it immediately. This makes Chain subpar against this enchantment. The same strikes naturally go against Chain when it comes to Crypt, Relic, Stax cards, and Enchantress cards; the opponent will just recast his cards the following turn. Claim permanently removes these threats. This is a huge advantage over Chain.
A number of players have mentioned that Chain deals with "Everything", and then includes cards like Jailer, Blazing Archon, and Jotun Grunt. Yes, these cards do exist in the Legacy metagame, but they are extremely rare. You are far, far more likely to encounter artifact and enchantment based hatred. Claim is superior to Chain when it comes to dealing with this overtly prevalent hatred.

As AngryTroll said, Claim is always relevant in games 2 and 3. Sure, Chain is always relevant as well, just by virtue of its card text. Claim, however, gains its relevance because it targets important threats, not just random cards. Chain might bounce a Goyf now and then, but that does not make it a relevant and powerful card. Claim specifically deals with the most likely threats, as well as any maindecked artifacts and enchantments that your opponent might be packing.

-ktkenshinx-

johanessen

02-03-2010, 02:01 PM

Raptor

02-03-2010, 02:08 PM

... So what`s the proposed SB for a standard build (4 Pimp 4 Tribes 4 Ichorids) ?

4 Unmask
4 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Relevation

Or are those two unnecessary with Nature's Claim and shoud go 4 Leylines?

You should definitly go for 4 ancient Grudge. This card is so good at the moment. -2 Nature's claim
-2 Ray of relevation, -1 Nature's claim +3 Chain of vapor. You'll most likely want the versatility of Chain. You might want to keep Ray/Claim or add wishpmare if you never see random hate in your meta and there is A LOT of annoying enchantment.

And Probally -3 Firestorm, -1 Nature's Claim + 4 Leyline of the void. If there is a lot of graveyard based deck in your meta, you should go for this.

We might give you a better sideboard if you give us some ideas of what your meta looks like.

ktkenshinx

02-03-2010, 03:37 PM

As with current sideboards you usually board in Chain as flexible answer to specific hate, Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation (if played) cannot deal with. You never board Chain to bounce stuff like Tarmogoyf.
First of all, I was never claiming that anyone in their right mind would ever board in a Chain to bounce Goyf. I was merely suggesting that, while Chain is supposedly very versatile, the vast majority of cards that it ends up bouncing are cards that would be better off dead and gone, courtesy of Ray/Grudge/Claim/etc. Just because Chain has the ability to target a range of threats, does not mean you would ever NEED to target a range of threats. Most dangerous cards are enchantments and artifacts, both of which Claim solves far better than does Chain.

Chain is said to be able to deal with almost everything because in most of the cases it is absolutely no problem to Flashback a Therapy for the bounced card.
Except now you have used 2 cards to remove 1 card. Therapy would likely have been better used to take out a future threat rather than the one already on the board in range of destruction spells. Moreover, this means that in order to use Chain to its fullest, you have to also have Therapy in hand (less likely) or in your yard. If it needs to be in your yard, then you are forced to Dredge it there, which might be difficult to accomplish in just one turn. Presumably, if an active Leyline/Crypt/Relic was preventing you from dredging earlier, you are going to be hard-pressed to make up that lost ground in just one turn. If you cannot find that Therapy, then you have just dealt with the threat for a single turn. This is the serious weakness of Chain.

If you board Chains and have one in your opening hand you play more carefully with Therapy but sometimes it doesn't even matter as one turn is enough. Creatures like Jailer or Blazing Archon and Iona (B) from Reanimator demand for an answer no matter what it is, folding to these cards is not acceptable when it is easy to deal with them. Chains are the least boarded cards in my board but most of the times I boarded them they won the game by dealing with hoser creatures.
Just because a card exists that CAN stop Ichorid, does not mean that this card is used. Morningtide wipes our graveyard away in one fell stroke, but no one, save for a few Aggro Loam players, uses this card. Do we need to prepare for threats that aren't used? Jailer, while powerful against us, is incredibly rare. The same goes for Blazing Archon. Iona naming B absolutely does not "demand" an answer, as we would still be fully capable of casting most spells and being as explosive as ever. If the Chain slots in the board were shifted to, say, Claim slots, while we might lose a matchup once in a blue moon to random, non-artifact/enchantment threats, we would almost assuredly make up the lost ground by having more consistent removal for the far more dangerous artifacts and enchantments.

In what you're saying is that claim is better against enchantress/stax/leyline, but these match ups are SO rare and even decks packing leyline of the void seem to be rarer. In about 100 tournament matches, I've encounter 2-3 deck packing leyline and maybe 2 stax and 0 enchantress. Stax and enchantress rarely make top 8 of big tournament (I know, enchantress won a SCG event, but still). And you are still forgetting that stax runs 4x chalice and 4x trinisphere which will make you claim really hard to cast. And I'm also pretty sure that we are a bye for enchanter no matter if you run claim or not. You probally won't draw enough claim for all their stuff.
Relic and Crypt are unquestionably the most used hate cards. Grudge, while incredibly useful against such threats, often require a little back up. The goal is not to just have one set of cards that counteract hatred. After all, our opponents rarely rely on just a set of Crypts or Relics. Hatred tends to be redundant and spread out over a wide range of cards from hard threats (Crypt) to soft threats (Propaganda). Nature's Claim gives you versatile countermeasures to these cards in games 2 and 3 because let's face it. It is not always clear which cards are going to be boarded in. The exact package of hatred your opponent is wielding is likely unknown to you. I would certainly bring in Grudge's to deal with artifacts (especially if there was a question that Chalice could be involved), but I would want some low-cost alternatives. Claim fits this bill.

I also don't understand why you would side in Claim game 2 except if you expect Leyline. It's SUBOPTIMAL to side in claim "just in case", you should side in Grudge game 2. Loosing game 2 to random hate is much better then screwing a part of your engine because you sided in too much card or a bad one in the situation because you don't have it in your hand(claim). You should accept to loose game 2 to random hate and be prepared for G3 with either chain or claim, and chain deals with much more stuff, not to mention that chain can be cast off a cephalid coliseum.
One big thing that Chain has going for it over Claim is that it is castable off of the Coliseum. Other than that, however, I must respectfully disagree with the position you outline in this quote. Game 2 is admittedly a notoriously rough run, because you just do not know what your opponent is going to throw at you. That said, your best, statistical bet is that your opponent will side in artifact and enchantment based hatred. Extirpate and Ravenous Trap might also come into the picture, but neither Chain nor Claim deals with them, so their relevance is minimal in regards to this argument. Chain tends to deal with a lot of soft threats (Magus of the Moat/Tabernacle, Grunt, Jailer, and so on), but really. How many of these threats are game enders? All of these cards, and their unlisted partners, are either a) not played, b) not game ending, or c) neither played NOR game ending. Sideboards do not have to deal with every imaginable threat that could possibly arise in a million sample games. They simply have to be optimized for the most probable threats. Claim accomplishes this. Chain is more versatile overall, but less focused in the micro-picture.

Also, WTF with the tarmogoyf argument... If chain just bounced a Tarmogoyf, what would have a Claim have done this situation ? Poop in your hand while you miserably loose to Tarmogoyf ?
Again, the point of the Goyf example had absolutely nothing to do with the viability of bouncing Goyf as a winning strategy. Rather, it was to illustrate that Chain of Vapor's versatility is often irrelevant. If you need to bounce a Goyf in order to win/stabilize board position, then you are probably doomed anyway.

TL;DR Running Claim in the slot of Chain means that you will most likely loose to random hate while chain will still be good versus leyline. Plus, I hardly doubt 1 or 2 claims will be enough versus enchantress , stax got Magus of the tabernacle that could be painfull and they have chalice and trinisphere anyway.
1. Random hate is largely a myth. Hatred against Dredge is highly predictable, and consistently falls in the artifact/enchantment camp.
2. Just because cards exist that can hurt Dredge, does not mean they are used. As such, we need not over-dedicate our boards in the event of their usage.
3. The majority of situations in which Claim is unhelpful are either situations where Chain is similarly unhelpful (the one about Magus of the Tabernacle being backed up by Chalice and Trinisphere; nothing is going to help there), or ones that are highly unlikely (Reanimator --> turn 1 Archon, go).

I am absolutely not suggesting that Chain should be utterly removed from the sideboard, or that bounce/creature/permanent removal has no place in Ichorid because all threats are always, 100% of the time going to be artifacts and enchantments. That is absurd. There are, however, other ways to circumvent cards like Jailer (Firestorm), Archon (Furystoke Giant), Iona (swarms of zombies), and so on that do not rely on the subpar and inconsistent interaction of Chain and Therapy.

-ktkenshinx-