[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[Dredgehammer]

Imagine a situation where you have Ancient Grudge or Chain of Vapor or even Cabal Therapy and a draw spell in hand in addition to your turn 1 discard outlet: you can't cast them quick enough, and your opponent has a turn to play his Sterling Grove or Reanimate to save his ass. There are probably multiple scenarios where you need land drops and UDPs drawback becomes irritating. I often cast Cabal Therapy turn 1 and Golgari Thug turn 2 to empty my opponents hand of hate or counters to set up a Breakthrough, for example.
Don't understand me wrong, these both are good lands for a rainbow coloured deck but I've played with 3 UDP and 3 Tarnished Citadel and Citadel just has been less of a liability.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Pulp_Fiction: Did you use Darkblast and if so what did you kill with it?

I really just like having 1 so I can kill random stuff like Fanatics and STE and not worry about Bridges being removed suddenly. Blast on Lackey is also quite amusing :) I didn't use it any this tournament but it is very useful. Since upping the Ichorid count to 4 now I can't run the 3x Darkblast I used to play. I hated Thug and still do, and when running 3x Ichorid I totally support running 3x Darkblast since you will have sufficient Ichorid food. But when upping to 4 you have to play Thugs as much as I would never run that card, I kind of have to now.

Tarnished Citadel is a necessary evil. Clearly its the worst land in the deck, but this is essentially a 5 color deck and when you mull or opend a hand with: discard outlet, dredger, petrified field .... thats awful. The 3 damage is barely ever relevant and is necessary to casting your spells. Grand Colisseum is not a good replacement, nor is Petrified Field, or Undiscovered Paradise. After a month of Paradise I cut it fast. It was such a hinderance, and personally, I think Bloodghast is just awful in the deck. He does nothing against the hate, can't block Goyf, is a dead draw, and he can't kill himself to make zombies .... not a fan.

Also, when you would normally win with turn 1 discard outlet, turn 2 CC dredge deck, Paradise slows you down till turn 3 activation, and this gives your opponent even more chances to draw Wasteland, Sinkhole, etc, or disrupt you in some other manner. If you play Undiscovered Paradise and like it more power to you, but I prefer to lightning bolt myself twice and then just win.

[Ecoris]

I often cast Cabal Therapy turn 1 and Golgari Thug turn 2 to empty my opponents hand of hate or counters to set up a Breakthrough, for example. You don' t do that, do you? If you sac Thug to therapy with no other creature cards in your graveyard you have to put it on top of your library.

[Dredgehammer]

The discard is setting up, the Thug on library a minor drawback. I play 4 Tribe Pimp and Careful Study so I've never found it hard to discard dredgers the next turn.

[linux-ll-]

I´m a big fan of Undiscovered Paradise because this happens to me a lot:

7 card Hand on the play

Play Undiscovered Paradise, Cast Imp --- Force of Will
Upkeep land on hand again and I am able to DDD a turn faster.

[beaker]

How do you all feel about choosing to be on the draw? I choose to be on the draw most of the time, and it helps a lot against blue decks that are planning to force your turn1 enabler.

[Matthias]

Hi all,

addressing a few questios being discussed lately:

1) Manabase: 12 Lands are fixed, so we need to fill up to the 14 or 15 lands that are required in LEDless Ichorid. Let's be honest: Both Undiscovered Paradise and Tarnished Citadel are pretty bad being your only rainbow land (Paradise, Citadel and Imp in Hand really sucks; and if you have to use the Citadel 2-3 times to play Imp, Study and Breakthrough, you gonna have a hard time). Personally I try to limit the impact of both by playing 14 land and one of each, that works quite ok so far.

2) Maindeck DR targets: I guess this is an endless discussion. There are some very strong DR targets (namely Iona and FKZ), that can be played MD. You gonna loose the occasional game, where you'd rather have dredger no. 12 or drawspell no. 12, but then you'll also win a few games, where Iona can just shut down you opponent before he burns you out, or where you find FKZ to win the critical turn earlier. So I guess, the loss in consistency is compensated by the stolen G1's where you were loosing. Personally I used to play Sage and FKZ but have switched to two Iona's as MD DR targets as you don't need zombies to win the game. Works fine so far, but as Legacy in general looks like "How do I cheat Iona into play" right now, people might adapt to deal with Her Celestial Majesty, so maybe the combo finish is better right now.

3) Sideboard DR targets: You basically need two: Chosen for Aggro and StormCombo Decks and Woodfall Primus/Terrastodon against decks that bring in problematic permanents. The rest should be dedicated to anti-hate exclusively. Personally I run

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Nature’s Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm
1 Ancestor’s Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus

I've chosen to run Nature's Claim > Wispmare. You loose to Leyline + Chalice 1 but I'm ok with that, we're playing combo, so we have to loose against some strong hate. I just like to have more than 3 cards to bring in against artifact hate.

You might be irritated by the Chalices. I like them far better than Unmask against Storm Combo. With Chalice, the storm player needs to find a bounce spell + conventional mana to play it. This should give you enough time to win.

4) Choosing to draw: This might be an option if you're playing against blue and have Land, Dredger, Drawspell and preferentially Therapy in your hand. However, LEDless Ichorid is so strong because of it's 8 permanent discard outlets, so normally you should be able to mulligan to better hands. Opting to "Slow Dredge" without a permanent discard outlet is very risky, as one bad dredge is all it takes to take you out.

My 50 cents on Ichorid.

Regards,
Matthias

[Zappa]

How do you all feel about choosing to be on the draw? I choose to be on the draw most of the time, and it helps a lot against blue decks that are planning to force your turn1 enabler.

If we are talking about game 1, where we have absolutely no info on what the opponent is playing, I actually prefer to be on the draw. Simply of two things, I can try to get some knowledge on what they could possibly be playing from their 1st turn. Another thing is should opponent actually be playing storm based deck and finish me off in turn 1, I know what to bring in, and they don't have any info what we are playing with, which matters on the sideboard.

Game 2-3 depending on the deck, if it is a combo deck we are facing then I want to be able to go 1st, get my chance to land a therapy and/or Unmask. Against other decks, I wont mind the card draw as I have probably mulliganed a bit searching for answers versus their hate.


Manabase: 12 Lands are fixed, so we need to fill up to the 14 or 15 lands that are required in LEDless Ichorid. Let's be honest: Both Undiscovered Paradise and Tarnished Citadel are pretty bad being your only rainbow land (Paradise, Citadel and Imp in Hand really sucks; and if you have to use the Citadel 2-3 times to play Imp, Study and Breakthrough, you gonna have a hard time). Personally I try to limit the impact of both by playing 14 land and one of each, that works quite ok so far.

If that is your preference and it works for you cool. But the people who's running tarnished citadel had two things in mind why they went for the citadel. Coliseum activation, and being able to play around daze. While I was having big doubts at first to try them, all you really needed to do is actually try them. I felt the deck has gotten slightly better consistency due to possible early coliseum activation and being able to play around daze. If you get a discard outlet to stick, specially through a daze, regarless if you have lost 6 or 9. Once that outlet is there and there for good, though it may be a bit of a stretch, your chance of winning if pretty high.


Maindeck DR targets: I guess this is an endless discussion. There are some very strong DR targets (namely Iona and FKZ), that can be played MD. You gonna loose the occasional game, where you'd rather have dredger no. 12 or drawspell no. 12, but then you'll also win a few games, where Iona can just shut down you opponent before he burns you out, or where you find FKZ to win the critical turn earlier. So I guess, the loss in consistency is compensated by the stolen G1's where you were loosing. Personally I used to play Sage and FKZ but have switched to two Iona's as MD DR targets as you don't need zombies to win the game. Works fine so far, but as Legacy in general looks like "How do I cheat Iona into play" right now, people might adapt to deal with Her Celestial Majesty, so maybe the combo finish is better right now.

Iona is indeed strong, but a lot of the decks have been adapting to be able to take care of this angel. While it's not necessarily a bad thing, as for me, what target I DR is not as important as how much tokens I make out of it. At least, that's how I feel about DR in general. No doubt she can just right out win us games, but often times, I pretend she's not even there and just stare at the amount of tokens I have and think that they themselves is enough to win the game actually. While I play with 1 Iona as well main decked, I am just as fine as well as not having a single dread return target at all. 2 seems way overkill, if I were to go 2 DR targets, I'll be bringing in zealot. However, just like most lists, majority of the time, it is just unnecessary.


Sideboard DR targets: You basically need two: Chosen for Aggro and StormCombo Decks and Woodfall Primus/Terrastodon against decks that bring in problematic permanents. The rest should be dedicated to anti-hate exclusively. Personally I run

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Nature’s Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm
1 Ancestor’s Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus

Sideboard is not really something I can comment on or discuss with other players much, since this primarily depends on your meta. However, I do believe that Chain of Vapor and Ancient Grudge is our swiss army knife versus a blind meta.

[Dredgehammer]

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Nature’s Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm
1 Ancestor’s Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus

This definetely needs to cut something for Chain of Vapor because it hits hatebears, Leylines, Crypts and Relics - pretty much everything except for Chalice. I suggest Firestorm should go - it easens up Zoo and Merfolk matchups, but Zoo is already an extremely easy matchup and the merfolk player will probably counter it if it is going to do anything relevant to their board.

[Zappa]

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Nature’s Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm
1 Ancestor’s Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus

This definetely needs to cut something for Chain of Vapor because it hits hatebears, Leylines, Crypts and Relics - pretty much everything except for Chalice. I suggest Firestorm should go - it easens up Zoo and Merfolk matchups, but Zoo is already an extremely easy matchup and the merfolk player will probably counter it if it is going to do anything relevant to their board.

That, plus it's our way out also when reanimator drops Blazing Archon on us.

Regarding the Firestorm though, even if merfolk does counter it, atleast they're not able to stop you from discarding your dredgers. Aside from DDD plan, though merfolks can race this, it's acually pretty helpful as it allows our dredgers to be discarded while having the chance to nuke their guys. Wether this is worth precious sideboard slots though depends on how often you encounter that match up.

[Wargoos]

So I played a weekly some days ago and wanted to try dredge for the first time in my magic "career".

The list I played:

3 Ichorid
4 Tribe
3 Dread Return
4 C. Therapy
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 G. Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 GGT
4 Breakthru
4 Putrid Imp
3 Careful Studies
1 Darkblast
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel

SB:
1 Terastodon
1 Ancestors Chosen
1 Furystoke Giant
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Natures Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Leyline of the Void

Basically it's frogboys list with minor changes in the sideboard due to card avaibility on my side.
Kudos to frog for the list.

Before I go into a quick report I need to tell you that since it's my first time playing the deck I didn't have a clue what to board out so some critique and boarding explanations would be highly appreciated.

R1 vs. Enchantress
He is a local player and I know that he plays always enchantress.*frown*

He wins the die roll and wants to start.
He plays forest, utopia thingy , go.

I play City drop a Tribe and pass.
Guy draws, play land and drops a presence and ends his turn, EoT I discard a GGT with tribe.

My turn I choose to dredge.
I play tarnished citadel and Breakthrough, dredging GGT, Imp, GGTx2, GGTx3.
I get a Moeba and sacc it to flashbacked therapy naming "solitary confinement" and I hit.
I see a elephant grass in his hand but I had just hit one therapy so I sacc some tokens and make a ~10/10 Troll and pass.

He draws, plays the topdecked enchantress drops her and the grass drawing two cards and passing the turn.
I dredge a troll, discard a troll sac my tribe for therapy naming Oblivion Ring, hit his ring and attack him with troll.
He pays grass draws land from top, plays it plays a karmic justice, draws two and scoops to the lethal troll next turn.

SB:
+1 Furystoke Giant
+1 FKZ
+1 Furystoke Giant
+1 Ray of Revelation
+2 Natures Claim
+2 CHain of Vapor
----------------------
-1 Citadel
-1 Thug
-1 Studies
-1 Darkblast
-4 Tribes

1.He is on the play again and drops a grass t1 right away.
I drop gemstone, playing a studies and discarding 1 GGT and an Imp with it.
2.He pays for the grass and ramps a forest of his with sprawl.
I dredge, drop a coliseum dredge lot's of cards and hit eventually 3 bridges but no moeba.
3. He pays for grass again, plays land and lands an enchantress passing the turn.
I get me some funky Ichorids, dredge and start therapying the shit outta him saccing the Ichos and Moeba to make a shitton of token passing the turn.
4. He pays for grass once again, draws (I discarded all his business) and plays an elephant grass drawing a card.
I get me two ichorids again and dredge, hitting a furystoke giant. I sacc the two ichorids to get anhother halfdozen of zombies sacc the furystoke and 2 tokens to get 3 tokens and a FKZ in play and shoot the guy for 30++ dmg in the face.

[Wargoos]

R2 vs. Goyfsligh

I don't know what he is playing but mull down to 5 finally finding me tribe, land and Dredger.
1.He drops nacatl.
I drop the Tribe and he is pissed about the thing able to power up it's defense.
2. He attacks I block and discard dredger. He drops a goyf and passes.
I start to dredge hit multiple bridges a moeba and therapy.
I therapy the guy for bolt (?!) get 2 tokens and pass.
3. He swings, I block the goyf get 3 from Nacatl and he drops a pridemage.
I dredge again finding some Ichorids.
4. He swings with all I block the biggest get 5 dmg and he passes.
I reanimate the Ichos swinging with them and the tokens for 10dmg and saccing the ichos and a token for a 6/6 troll.
In response to getting tokens he saccs his pridemage to remove my bridges. However he's now at a disadvantage facing some token and the troll
and I can slowdredge him to death.

SB:
+ 1 Chosen
+ 3 Grudge
-------------
-1 Thug
-1 Citadel
-2 Imp

G2:
I mull to 5 but get a good hand and can d.return a chosen for +30 on turn 3 which nets me the win.
In the process I could get rid of a G.Teeg via darkblast and forcing the guy to pop a crpyt with a grudge for an inconvenient time for him.


R3 vs. Armastaxx
He is on the play and drops a t2 prison but a 17/17 troll gets there attacking once.
( I won having 2 tarnished citadels on board)

SB:
+1 Terastodon
+1 FKZ
+1 Fursytoke Giant
+3 Ancient Grudge
+2 Natures Claim
+2 Chain of Vapor
---------------------
-2 Citadel
-1 Ichorid
-1 Thug
-1 Studies
-1 Darkblast
-4 Tribes

He goes broken and gets a crypt + prison early but I had a claim in hand since the beginning and can get rid of it while my zombies start ravaging his life. He can hold them off with another prison but terastodon blows everything up and I have some more tokens than him and a 9/9 elephant that eventually wins.

Afterall I am really hyped by this deck. It performed well eventhough I just played 3 rounds.
Sb was good and I can't decide by this few games if I would want to change something.
Sideboarding felt pretty hard but I think I managed well and made the right boardindecisions overall.

[SlopeeJ]

just curious what did the zoo player destroy when he saced the pridemage?

[Wargoos]

just curious what did the zoo player destroy when he saced the pridemage?

Ah sorry, I meant sacrificing as in the wordmeaning, he shot the pridemage with burn.

[4eak]

Gratz EaD. I consider Enchantress and White Stax to be unfavorable. Winning against those while playing the deck for the first time is excellent.




peace,
4eak

[Wargoos]

Gratz EaD. I consider Enchantress and White Stax to be unfavorable. Winning against those while playing the deck for the first time is excellent.




peace,
4eak

Thanks, it's not that a big feat to beat some regulars (you know their playing habits which makes it a bit easier) and I think the props should really go to frogboy for the good list and the deck itself for being a monster.
Hoped anyone could say something to the 2/2 chain of vapor - Natures claim ratio and to my sideboarding.

[kicks_422]

Why? Doesn't Chain of Vapor handle everything (and more) that Claim does? Does the destroy effect, rather than bounce, really help?

[Wargoos]

Why? Doesn't Chain of Vapor handle everything (and more) that Claim does? Does the destroy effect, rather than bounce, really help?

Claim handles everything that we need to handle afaik so I wouldn't give Chains the advantage here.
Pro for claim is that it can actually force to crack artifact hate against us so that we won't be in a hurry to combo like we would be if we had chain in such a situation. Destroying stuff like ghostly prison or elephant grass also seems better when you don't have the lethal horde on the board.
I would say that claim can be better depending on the situation or at least gets rid of stuff we would want to bounce.
In a reanimatormeta however bouncing an Iona or Archon seems like the better play.
I just can't decide which is overall better to use :(

[alderon666]

Claim handles everything that we need to handle afaik so I wouldn't give Chains the advantage here.
Pro for claim is that it can actually force to crack artifact hate against us so that we won't be in a hurry to combo like we would be if we had chain in such a situation. Destroying stuff like ghostly prison or elephant grass also seems better when you don't have the lethal horde on the board.
I would say that claim can be better depending on the situation or at least gets rid of stuff we would want to bounce.
In a reanimatormeta however bouncing an Iona or Archon seems like the better play.
I just can't decide which is overall better to use :(

You can't cast Claim with Coliseum. That has always been my main concern about it. Destryoing is indeed better than bouncing, but bouncing is usually good enough. Remember, you can Therapy the freshly bounced card away.

[Wargoos]

You can't cast Claim with Coliseum. That has always been my main concern about it. Destryoing is indeed better than bouncing, but bouncing is usually good enough. Remember, you can Therapy the freshly bounced card away.

This is a good point that I have not thought about.
How big a problem is this with a manabase consisting of 15 lands (11 can produce colored)?

I believe older dredge lists played only 12 lands so casting chain with citadel was necessary which gave it a nod over claim but a 15 lands base could be a different story.
As I said I am beginner with this deck and it takes a bit more time to learn this than other decks, so I rather ask you guys before making my final decision what to pack in the sb.

[Dredgehammer]

Chain of Vapor is a definite 4-of, because it hits creatures that Nature's Claim doesn't (Blazing Archon, Gaddock Teeg, Iona).

[Adan]

I think you can play 4 Claims in a meta with a lot of Dreadstill and Leylines since there were also a game or two where I lost because Leyline got hardcast again (and no, I didn't had a grave from which I could flashback a Therapy due to Line!).

But Chains are currently the more versatile option as you might face some decks that will spawn random fatties you might want to bounce (Reanimator predominantly).

edit: eh, ninja'ed several times...

[Wargoos]

Chain of Vapor is a definite 4-of, because it hits creatures that Nature's Claim doesn't (Blazing Archon, Gaddock Teeg, Iona).

I already adressed the Reanimator MU in which obv. any bounce is the better choice.
Gaddock Teeg can be killed via Darkblast.

I guess it's really a metadecision like adan said.

[NQN]

I would recommend you to play 4 Chains. When I expect artifact hate, I´d rather side in 4 Grudges then f.e. 3 grudge 2 claims.
Grudge is better against artifacts than claim, chain is usually as good as claim against everything else (especially the already mentioned Reanimator). Enchantress and Staxx are just too narrow to give up on chains for them. Terrastodon and 1-of Ray of Revelation should be enough to be able to beat those.

[(nameless one)]

Hello Y'all!

I all the cards need in this deck that came from Futuresight (I was trying to get Tarmogoyfs with no luck). I Also have most of the cards from the older sets (Only missing Cabal Therapy and Ichorids). So I decided to start building the deck.

I myself suck at playing Magic and poor in general. I compensate for this by playing decks that are either easy to play and cheap to play (Tribal decks). I read an article on how this deck is a really good and underappreciated so I decided to build the deck. Also, my meta seems to forget about graveyard decks as no one really runs them in my area. The closest graveyard deck I've seen was a budget Aggro-Loam. No one runs grave-hate in my area. It looks like my meta needs to a fresh ripped hole.

Here is my current build:



4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Nacromoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid

4 Bridge From Below

3-4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3-4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return

1 Darkblast

Sideboard:

4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
5 open slots


Based on what I've scouted on this thread, this seems to be the standard list. My only question is which one should be a full playset of a 3-of: Breakthrough or Careful Study. Both seems to have its pros and cons that which I cannot see. Can anyone enlighten me with this?

Also, is Leyline of the Void necessary in the SB slot? As mentioned above, I am tight on budget. Are there other good alternatives? Also, I have a playset of Pithing Needle. Should I use that or Ancient Grudge would be good enough?

What should I use for the remaining 5 open slots?

Thanks!

[Dredgehammer]

There's no sense in playing less than 4 Breakthrough, it's the card we win with most of the time. 3 Careful Study is plenty.

Your sideboard should include a DR package, like: Terastodon, FKZ, Ancestor's Chosen, Angel of Despair. You can also cut some Ray of Revelations to have space for Leylines. If you can't afford them, and your meta doesn't have much Dredge, Faerie Macabre is a good substitute (mainly against Reanimator).

[Zappa]

Also, I have a playset of Pithing Needle. Should I use that or Ancient Grudge would be good enough?
I was never really a fan of needle, sure it can be used to fight random things but thats what our chain of vapor is for. A lot of players have also gotten smart with their sideboarding that their graveyard hate has been made diverse and done a split to be less prone to needle, and higher chance to miss with a blind therapy.

Another thing as well,the Ray of revelation. This slot seems to be better as Nature's Claim. The times you would be bringing in Ray of Revelation is usually the times when you must really mulligan into it as dredging for an answer is highly unlikely (leyline). During these times, you need to have it on your opening and have the mana to cast it. Mulliganing aggressively in hopes for getting Ray of Revelation, while hoping to come across 2 lands is very harsh.

However, those things are still answered by our chain of vapor. So I actually favor just going with 4X Chain of Vapor and 4X Ancient Grudge. That'll leave you with 7 open slots. I don't know what your meta is like, but from how you're describing things, it looks like there's nothing that would require wasting your precious SB slots for leyline (to answer your other qustion). When grave dependent decks appear in your meta then you can start sleeving some hate, if its even needed that is, if you are going to actually for some reason run leyline, run 4.

But yeah, I can't really give you a solid advise for SB without knowing what you usually see, and how skilled those players are. But you can consider some cards to what you think would be good for handling you meta:

- Unmask
- Firestorm
- Ancestor's Chosen
- Terastodon

If problematic enchantments are often seen where you play, then stick some Nature's Claim or Ray of Revelations in there (enchantress). But for me, Along with my 4x Chain of Vapor, 4X Ancient Grudge. Unmasks, ancestor's chosen, and terastodon/primus is something I always try to have.

Also since you're new with the deck. Just a little advise with Cabal Therapy, just in case. If you're already doing things this way then dont mind it. If you're going on a blind therapy on your opponent. Some people I've watched that piloted dredge, tries to name cards that they hope will be in the opponent's hand, in hopes on nailing something with it, even if the said card does nothing to hinder your game plan to begin with. On a blind therapy, if you are unsure of what to name, but they have the capability of running certain cards. Name the card that you don't wanna see.


As for your decklist, it looks fine. I run a fairly stocked list, only thing I have in common with Frogboy's list is the mana base. If you're having difficulty with deciding between breakthrough or Study, game 1s, most decks have very little means of interacting with our game plan. I would much rather try to end the game fast (in hopes of having more time to scout later).

Anyways im kinda zoning out and I dont wanna be babbling.. so... good luck and have fun with your deck.

[Zappa]

Just wondering from you guys. I don't know if its just my imagination or whatever, but do you guys sometimes feel some sort of hostility or get the feeling the opponent is frowning on you for playing a deck like dredge? I've been noticing that in the past, and sadly I got the nick name "dredge player" even though I sometimes play with a different deck. Though it is a bit silly that some people thinks I am playing dredge, aggressively mulligan on game 1 and then finds out I am not playing it. :tongue:

Also just looking at the discussions in these forums, what's up with all the hostility towards dredge? :frown:

[(nameless one)]

Just wondering from you guys. I don't know if its just my imagination or whatever, but do you guys sometimes feel some sort of hostility or get the feeling the opponent is frowning on you for playing a deck like dredge? I've been noticing that in the past, and sadly I got the nick name "dredge player" even though I sometimes play with a different deck. Though it is a bit silly that some people thinks I am playing dredge, aggressively mulligan on game 1 and then finds out I am not playing it. :tongue:

Also just looking at the discussions in these forums, what's up with all the hostility towards dredge? :frown:

They're just jealous because their deck can't regularly pull off a game 1 win. They're probably hostile because they know they're gonna lose and there's nothing that they can do.

[Zappa]

I posted in the LED Ichorid thread but may as well as it here, as there are others with LEDless dredge that still uses Sphinx or Sage. But I was wondering, just to get a discussion going on, what is your opinion on the RoE creature Thought Gorger? It can act as a discard outlet and as a card draw as well, and the fact that it is black means that Ichorid has more food to chew on. I opened one on one of the boosters I won, and I was wondering of tinkering with it, though I usually prefer a decklist of 0-1 DR targets, with the 1 target, if I run any, being Iona. However, I stopped packing Iona, with the decks packing Karakas, and I don't like giving reanimator decks a free fatty that sometimes seals the game when we have not accumulated much of an army.

[Ozymandias]

Just wondering from you guys. I don't know if its just my imagination or whatever, but do you guys sometimes feel some sort of hostility or get the feeling the opponent is frowning on you for playing a deck like dredge? I've been noticing that in the past, and sadly I got the nick name "dredge player" even though I sometimes play with a different deck. Though it is a bit silly that some people thinks I am playing dredge, aggressively mulligan on game 1 and then finds out I am not playing it. :tongue:

Also just looking at the discussions in these forums, what's up with all the hostility towards dredge? :frown:

It's not just Dredge. If you play Storm combo, or Dragon Stompy, or any deck that executes lateral strategies, people get angry because it violates their expectations of HURRR fetchland Tarmogoyf--and does so to their detriment.

[YigSnakeDaddy]

Thoughtgorger somehow doesn't feel right to me.
The draw/discard could be nice if you have enough cards in your hand, but - call me oldfashioned - I'd rather have something that fucks my opponent up simply by coming into play for a DR target.

Also, by the time he leaves the fieldthe game should be over already, which makes his draw (or in this case dredge) ability not so great imho. Unless you sacrifice him right away like a very expensive Bridge-fodder.

[Matthias]

Hi,

I'll have to play in a somewaht combo-heavy Metagame (heavy = about 50% of the field, and no, I cannot choose another deck :-))and would like to adapt my sideboard accordingly. I'm playing a pretty straightforward build and will run Sphinx and FKZ as DR targets as a concession to all the combo players.

I was thinking about bringing in something like:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Unmask
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 [Slot]

Granted, there's no Chain of Vapor, this was already suggested in a previous post, but I'm not a big supporter of bouncing hate cards, destroying them is just so much better. And Nature's Claim / Ancient Grudge just hits everything that would be really nasty against us.

Any thoughts?

[(nameless one)]

What I have gathered from this thread, Flame Kin Zealots helps this deck go toe-to-toe with other combo decks. Iona would be good too.

[junkdiver]

Hi,

I'll have to play in a somewaht combo-heavy Metagame (heavy = about 50% of the field, and no, I cannot choose another deck :-))and would like to adapt my sideboard accordingly. I'm playing a pretty straightforward build and will run Sphinx and FKZ as DR targets as a concession to all the combo players.

I was thinking about bringing in something like:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Unmask
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 [Slot]

Granted, there's no Chain of Vapor, this was already suggested in a previous post, but I'm not a big supporter of bouncing hate cards, destroying them is just so much better. And Nature's Claim / Ancient Grudge just hits everything that would be really nasty against us.

Any thoughts?

Well a resolved Yixlid Jailer is a scoop. Meddling Mages, Gaddock Teegs, Jotun Grunts, can in fact be annoying (not by themselves, but when backed by counters or a nasty clock), and chain will deal with them. If vindicate only cost 1 I think you could think of cutting chain.

To battle combo Unamsk is going to be a big help. Your board looks ok if you never plan to see wacky hate, but the players who routinely beat dredge are the ones who pack all kinds of different hate for it. Chain is awesome not just for hate. It bounces Ionas, Blazing Archons, enemy Ichorids etc.

This is just my opinion of course, but I have found chain to be absolutely vital games 2-3 in too many scenarios to warrant cutting it.

I would cut 2 Claim, the chosen, and use your empty slot to pack 4 chains.

[drawer]

Hi,

I'll have to play in a somewaht combo-heavy Metagame (heavy = about 50% of the field, and no, I cannot choose another deck :-))and would like to adapt my sideboard accordingly. I'm playing a pretty straightforward build and will run Sphinx and FKZ as DR targets as a concession to all the combo players.

I was thinking about bringing in something like:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Unmask
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 [Slot]

Granted, there's no Chain of Vapor, this was already suggested in a previous post, but I'm not a big supporter of bouncing hate cards, destroying them is just so much better. And Nature's Claim / Ancient Grudge just hits everything that would be really nasty against us.

Any thoughts?

If you have access to Force of Will it's actually a pretty decent SB card. It also comes in in more than just the combo matchup so it's not as narrow of an inclusion as CotV.

[Zappa]

The Unmask and Ancestor's Chosen in the SB looks pretty good, that what I usually have. Except what kind of combo are you talking about? Which combe decks do you normally see? ANT? Reanimator? Becareful with the Iona in your deck if it's against reanimator, keep in mind they can take her. As for ANT like someone else mentioned Flame-kin Zealot really helps your match, if not just make sure you slow them down while you beat down with ichorids and other guys, that would make it harder for them to reach a lethal storm count.

The problem with FoW in the deck, is that he's got so little blue in the deck. Some of which will leave as well when boarding comes. That, and factoring in the fact that he'll me mulliganing too. I really think that with the Unmasks and chosen he's got enough to slow down the opponent. I dunno though, hard for me to replace/take out Chain of Vapors, but that falls down to preference I guess.

One thing I would like to ask, while were in the discussion of combo. There's quite a rise of reanimator in meta, I see 3 people playing it, played 1 in a match, saw the other 2, and I know 1 guy who's currently trying to build it. So I am going to see quite a bunch of them soon. One thing I'd like to ask, is for reanimator which card is a better sideboard?

Leyline of the Void
Faerie Macabre
Coffin Purge

One of the reanimator player told me that Coffin Purge is really good against them, playing it or flashing it back in response to a reanimation spell. But, wanted to get other's perspective on the matter, and we could also dredge into it.

[IrishLegend]

I would say Coffin Purge is your best bet, do to the fact you can stay on your dredging plan and just flash it back.

[Matthias]

Hi,

after the discussion about how to build your sideboard for any given meta, I was wondering whether we could draw a quite comprehensive lists of cards "to have" in order to build sideboards suited for any given metagame. I would especially enjoy some "out of the box" cards like Coffin Purge or Furystoke Giant.

Anyone?

[Anusien]

I doubt I'd want to board something just for Reanimator. I usually have some Leylines or similar cards for the mirror. I'd look at bringing in a mix of those also Chain of Vapor if you still have any. Your best weapon here is probably going to be Therapy on Entomb.

[(nameless one)]

So, I have been contemplating on a Budget Version. Here is my current list:




4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
3 Tarnished Citadel

4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Nacromoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid

4 Bridge from Below

4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return

1 Darkblast


Here is my sideboard:


[cards]
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Terrastodon

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Coffin Purge
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation

I wanted to use FKZ on the main but I dont know what to remove. That said, I think I want to add an additional gravehate or enchantment hate. Combo doesn't really exist in my meta so I am not worried about it.

Any suggestions out there?

Thanks!

[drawer]

I wanted to use FKZ on the main but I dont know what to remove. That said, I think I want to add an additional gravehate or enchantment hate. Combo doesn't really exist in my meta so I am not worried about it.

Any suggestions out there?


You can easily cut a Thug, Therapy or Dread Return to fit in FKZ. 2 Dread Returns is plenty. You could also cut a Citadel since you don't really need many lands without running Bloodghast.

[Anusien]

You don't want FKZ. If you want a maindeck Dread Return target at all, you want Terastodon or maybe Iona. Flame-Kin Zealot is just awful. Seriously, no.

Your list as-is is fine, although you may consider Ichorid #4.

[unicoerner]

Hey guys,
i would be interested in which cards you usually board out.

Vs decks without Wastes:
Usually 2 lands

Vs decks without removal:
Some permanent discard outlets

Vs swords:
Dread Returns

Often parts of the draw package

[Dredgehammer]

Against swords FKZ is still completely viable, and I doubt your opponent will fall in love with an Iona for white either. Careful Studies are usually the first to go. It depends entirely on the matchup.

[Digital Devil]

I'm Dread Returning this thread to share my doubts about this deck. I finally obtained all missing cards and I decided to play Dredge @ a local tourney. I'm posting the list I played at the tournament, the various matchups, and my brand new list. I also have some questions about rulings, but... let's get it on!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TSP] Dread Return
1 [RAV] Darkblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only 4 rounds + top4, due to both the bad weather and to the presence of many (many) other tournaments all at once...

Round 1 - Tempo Thresh
He wins the die roll, he goes Tropical, go. I know what he's playing, so I kept a 7-card hand with City of Brass, Coliseum, 1 PImp and 1 Tribe, Cabal Therapy and 2 Trolls. I draw an Ichorid, discard Troll, and pass. He plays land, Go. With Troll, I dredge 2 Bridge from Below, 1 Cabal Therapy, Stinkweed Imp and chaff. I play City of Brass to Therapy him: I don't know why but he decides it resolves, so I name FOW. I see double Force, Spell Pierce, a Bolt, cantrips and a Goyf. Nice. The next turn he makes the mistake to tap himself out to cast Goyf. I then proceed to dredge with that Stinkweed Imp I saw the previous turn, chain dredgers with Cephalid Coliseum, luckily revealing (in something like 16 cards) Dread Return, 3 Narcomoebas and Iona, which I DR naming blue, and he scoops.

-1 Darkblast, -3 Careful Study, +4 Ancient Grudge

Game 2, he mulls down to 5 searching for a land, but it seems he didn't find enough to start applying pressure. Land, go. I bait him with a PImp, which gets forced (I have 2 Tireless Tribes in my hand, as well as Golgari Thug and Ancient Grudge). I don't know if it was better to DDD or to play PImp, but the fact he had only 2 cards in hand made me happy. He plays a Crypt, without playing a Land. Next turn, I play a second land and a Therapy, which gets Spell Pierced. I then succesfully sneak a Tribe into play, and the game is almost over. Later, he'll blow up the Crypt, but Tireless Tribe is so good against Crypt/Relic that I discard GGT, still go insane and I win 2-0.

Round 2 - Bant Aggro
He wins the die roll, Forest ==> Hierarch. This was nice, since I didn't have to be worried about Daze. I then cross my fingers and play City of Brass into Tribe, which luckily enters the battlefield. But it doesn't remain on the table that long, since the next turn it gets StPed, but in response I discard a GGT and a Thug. He plays a Pridemage and says "go". The next turn I Dredge 6, play a Cephalid Coliseum, try to Therapy him with City of Brass hoping he didn't draw a Force, so I name FOW, and he reveals RWM, lands, cantrips, and a Goyf. Breakthrough ===> Iona (naming white) ===> GG

-3 Careful Study, +3 Ancient Grudge (I kept the mono-Darkblast just to get rid of Hierarchs, and in case of Meddling Mage naming DR)

He Ponders on his first turn, I play a Gemstone Mine and a Therapy on myself naming Stinkweed Imp, which I discard. He looks at my hand with another land, PImp, Bridge from Below, GGT and Breakthrough, proceeds to draw a card, and gently shakes my hand. 2-0!!!

Round 3 - Mono Black Hexmage/Depths combo
I win the die roll, and I bolt myself to play Tribe with Citadel. He goes insane. Land, Ritual, Ritual, Hymn to Tourach, discarding GGT and Bridge from Below, then he plays Suffer the Past for 2. WTF? Luckily I still have another GGT, which I discard in my upkeep and Dredge 6 revealing 1 Narcomoeba. Since I'm the worst player ever, I need to counterbalance my terrible playing skills with a high amount of luck. I discard Iona and GGT with Tribe. The other card in my hand was Cephalid Coliseum. Cephalid Coliseum + Threshold = mill almost half of my deck, finding Dread Return and reanimating Iona naming black. In 3 turns, it's over.

-3 Careful Study, +3 Ancient Grudge (again, Darkblast is for Confidant/Hexmage)

I mull down to 6 looking for a hand with a dredger. He play Swamp, Go. I play Gemstone Mine and pass the turn. He plays Confidant, which eats a Darkblast. I start dredging 3 cards, I play a City of Brass, PImp, and keep 1 mana open in case of Hexmage. Swamp, go. Wheew. I discard nothing since Darkblast put into my graveyard a Stinkweed Imp. 2 Bridges are now in my graveyard. I Therapy him naming Hexmage, I see Depths, Top, lands, and a Damnation. I'm afraid of that Damnation, so I discard Stinkweed Imp, flashback the Therapy, saccing my PImp and obtaining 2 Zombie Tokens. Next turn, he topdecks Hexmage, plays Depths and puts a 20/20 on the battlefield. Still no Crypt. Nice. I notice I have an Ichorid in my graveyard, so I remove the Imp I sacrificed before to reanimate him. Breakthrough ===> I chain dredgers until I have 4 Bridges from Below, Narcomoeba and Iona on the battlefield. My opponent plays Top and passes, chosing not to attack since that would have meant +8 damage on my turn, and with Iona on the battlefield and multiple Ichorids in my graveyard... well, he passes. I reanimate 2 Ichorids, attack with them and with my zombie tokens, my opponent blocks an Ichorid with his 20/20 and goes down to 3. I have 4 more zombies. I use 3 of them to Dread Return a Narcomoeba, just in case I need to chump block Marit Lage the next turn. My opponent EOT looks at his top3 with Top, draws and plays a Powder Keg, and makes and evil smile. In the end, I'm the one who ends up smiling, since my Ichorids have haste...

Round 4 - Pro Bant
I.D.

Top4 - Tempo Thresh
Again. He is tired, and makes big misplays, like attacking with Lavamancer into my Tireless Tribe or destroying my Tarnished Citadel with Wasteland, not having additional coloured mana sources besides a Volcanic Island, so I steamroll him with Ichorid beatdown.

-1 Darkblast, -3 Careful Study, +4 Ancient Grudge

He keeps his 7, and I do the same. Except for the fact that I have 2 permanent discard outlets and 2 lands, Ancient Grudge, Golgari Grave Troll and a Breakthrough. I play a rainbow land ===> Putrid Imp, which meets a Daze. It's good, since he's losing land drops, hence precious turns. Land, Ponder, go. I'm much more aggressive: land, I Therapy (the card I drew in my first turn) him naming Force, it resolves, but has a hand full of burn (Fire/Ice, Bolt, Firespout) and a Goyf. I play Tribe, which he tries to burn forgetting about the +0/+4 ability. I discard Troll, dredge 6, and during my turn I flashback Therapy, naming Force. It resolves, and he has it. Breakthrough ====> 23 cards in my graveyard, I end up with 2 Golgari Grave-Troll, a 9/9 and a 8/8. He doesn't see Wipe Away or other bounce spells, and when he casts a Crypt it's just too late. 2-0 again!!!

Finals - Pro Bant
We split the prizes and go home.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although it was a really small tournament, I enjoyed playing Dredge IRL for my first time. I played with 3 Therapies only because I didn't have the fourth, which I obtained with shop credit after my good placement. Well, I know my build was bad, and I know I had luck because my opponents didn't draw their hate cards, but I have to say each time I won I had a 1cc permanent discard outlet, so Crypt would have only slowed me down. The things I don't like about my list are: maindeck Darkblast, 3 Therapies (it's the card I always want to see), and my sideboard. I need to practice with this deck since I think it has huge potential, and so I'm asking for opinions about my NEW!!! build.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TSP] Dread Return

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [WWK] Terastodon
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maindeck Darkblast became the fourth Therapy. I removed FKZ from the sideboard because I think it makes the deck more fragile and Bridge dependant without adding anything particular but a faster clock. I removed 1 Faerie Macabre and 1 Claim, to make room for Darkblast, which I think is a great card in certain matchups. I then switched Primus for Terastodon, because it isn't dependant on Cabal Therapy. Also, 9/9 > 6/6, because I want Terastodon in matchups like Enchatress and Stax, which aren't exactly decks with lots of creatures, so the bigger body can make a difference. That said:

4 Ancient Grudge - mandatory.
3 Nature's Claim - I understand: since it can't be played from my graveyard I need to maximize the chances of having them in my opening hand, but I want Claim against so few decks I think it isn't worth to play 4.
3 Faerie Macabre - I like this over Coffing Purge and Leyline as graveyard hate. It feeds Ichorid, it's instant and free, counts as a creature for GGT, but still, Reanimator and mirror matches are so infrequent here I still think my sideboard needs to pack something else.
3 Darkblast - in some matchups, they're just great. I usually side them in against Survival, Goblins, Merfolks, or if I see a particular deck has many x/1 or x/2 creatures.
1 Ancestor's Chosen - mandatory.
1 Terastodon - see above.

One last question. Can I activate Cephalid Coliseum in my upkeep, Dredge like a pro, and then reanimate my Ichorids?

[NQN]

Deck is fine, I prefer playing w/o Iona but it´s sick as it is allthough I don´t like Darkblast/Claim. Maybe you will find Chain more useful with a little more practice.
To answer your last question: Yes. You can put Ichorid triggers on stack, activate Coliseum in response and then remove stuff you dredged/discarded this way to pay for them. It´s a pretty neat play which many Ichorid pilots don´t know/use.

[Ozymandias]

I think your sideboard needs 4 chain of vapor, because it's the most fleixble answer to gy hate, and it gets cast off of all your lands, which is sometimes extremely important. Also, it handles reanimator creatures, and gives you more than 3 answers to Leyline. I would cut 3 darkblasts and a grudge for them.

[Digital Devil]

To answer your last question: Yes. You can put Ichorid triggers on stack, activate Coliseum in response and then remove stuff you dredged/discarded this way to pay for them. It´s a pretty neat play which many Ichorid pilots don´t know/use.
Nice!!! Then, I have an additional question: assuming I have no Ichorids in my graveyard, but I dredge them with Coliseum in my upkeep, can I reanimate them? I think the answer is "no" but I need someone who can confirm me that =)

I think your sideboard needs 4 chain of vapor, because it's the most fleixble answer to gy hate, and it gets cast off of all your lands, which is sometimes extremely important. Also, it handles reanimator creatures, and gives you more than 3 answers to Leyline. I would cut 3 darkblasts and a grudge for them.
About Chain... I seriously dislike them. I want definitive solutions, something Chain of Vapor doesn't provide. It is nice against Leyline and Reanimator, but here no one plays them. Also, I have a constant fear that one of my opponents can sacrifice a land to bounce one of my permanents (say, Narcomoeba). And I can't always have a Therapy to discard the bounced permanent. This is why I'd rather have Claim than Chain. Maybe I'll change my mind while learning how to play the deck better.

[SlopeeJ]

no ichorid has to be there in the beginning of your upkeep to trigger. I agree with you about chain/claim having answers is better then bounce

[bakofried]

This might be slightly off-topic, but how do you keep track of piles? Like 10 across, 4 down, or something like that? Just wondering, because I'm having a bit of trouble keeping it all in hand.

[Digital Devil]

My first game with Dredge, I kept three separate piles of cards. One with useless cards (say, lands, Careful Study), the other with dredgers, Bridges, Therapies, and another pile for the RFG zone. Then I realised it would be better to spread the cards from left to right and from up to down, something like this:

[LANDS] ---- [CREATURE][CREATURE] --- [RFG]
==============================> [DECK]
>=============================>
>===>...

But even then, I'm in trouble too, when it comes to 40+ cards in my graveyard, so, I wonder if there's an alternative manner to make cards visibile to both players and not invade nearby people's table. Someone posted a picture in the previous pages, but that was a bit confusing.

[Dredgehammer]

I find it best to keep it in one, straight up pile (like an upside-down deck), and always after dredging offer it to my opponent to look through. As a bonus, you're opponents might make mistakes when they don't remember your whole graveyard. Not really cheating, but they can't demand you to eat up half a table to have all your cards visible.

[bakofried]

I thought graveyard order isn't allowed to be changed?

[fyrisen]

I thought graveyard order isn't allowed to be changed?

It actually is now due to a recent rule change. Well not really recent but anyway it's ok in, Vintage, Legacy and Extended(?). But not in Standard.

[Anusien]

You can reorder your graveyard in formats without graveyard-order-matters cards. So you can reorder your graveyard in Standard and Extended but not in Legacy or Vintage.

[drawer]

The best way I've found to maintain graveyard order and make all cards visible is a fairly simple process:

When you dredge, count the cards one by one in a face down pile, then flip it over and lay out each card in your graveyard with the edge of the card lining up with the casting cost of the previous one. I keep my library on the right side so my graveyard starts below my library and builds from right to left, once I hit the edge of my playspace I start a new row. This method allows you to identify every card in your graveyard easily and keeps everything visible.

[bakofried]

Here's a SB i'm thinking of:
4 Unmask
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

[Joon]

Are you guys that impressed by Unmask? I'm trying to fit it in but all other Sideboard options seem to be better to me.

As a reference, here is my current Maindeck and Sideboard.

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe

4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Iona

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study

SB
4 Ancient Grudge (as Crypt/Relic are the most common hate against us, I want a Playset of these)
4 Chain of Vapor (Leyline is teh sux, in addition it is the most flexible anti-hate card and useful against Reanimator's Archon, against we scoop otherwise)
4 Firestorm (uncounterable Discardoutlet against Merfolk plus it kills pretty much against Zoo, Merfolk and other Tribes/Aggroish decks)
1 Iona (against ANT and Mono colored decks you want 2)
1 Terastodon
1 undecided Slot, from time to time it is 1 Ray of Revelation, sometimes it's also an Ancestor's Chosen

I could see me cutting 1 Firestorm (as you only need one each game you board it in) for 1 Unmask and placing another copy of it in the flexible spot. But then I'm still missing at least one slot to play Unmasks effectively.

As the mainboard is pretty much written in stone with some minor changes like +1 land or +1 Study/Darkblast the most interesting part of the deck is the sideboard.

Please share your thoughts.

[Anusien]

If you run a maindeck dedicated Dread Return target, it should either be Angel of Despair or Terastodon. Terastodon gets you out of tough maindeck situations against decks like Stax and Enchantress and Lands. Angel of Despair beats the Blazing Archon plan from Reanimator. These cards are good when you're behind; Iona and FKZ are only good when you're ahead.

[bakofried]

Eh, I just thought it would be a good form of hate, as I can expect a decent amount of combo in my meta.

[Arne]

If you run a maindeck dedicated Dread Return target, it should either be Angel of Despair or Terastodon. Terastodon gets you out of tough maindeck situations against decks like Stax and Enchantress and Lands. Angel of Despair beats the Blazing Archon plan from Reanimator. These cards are good when you're behind; Iona and FKZ are only good when you're ahead.

I find Iona to be an amazing DR target. It beats the mirror (black) and has been an Oops-I-Win card a couple of times. Even when you're behind it can stall your opponent (amazing blocker) and buy you a couple of turns to win eventually.

As for Terastodon. I haven't tested the card, but isn't Woodfall Primus a better choice. I mean, he doesn't give your opponent the tokens and can be used for therapy. I'm just asking, don't know if it would be the better choice.

cheers,

[Wargoos]

I find Iona to be an amazing DR target. It beats the mirror (black) and has been an Oops-I-Win card a couple of times. Even when you're behind it can stall your opponent (amazing blocker) and buy you a couple of turns to win eventually.

As for Terastodon. I haven't tested the card, but isn't Woodfall Primus a better choice. I mean, he doesn't give your opponent the tokens and can be used for therapy. I'm just asking, don't know if it would be the better choice.

cheers,

9 + 3 + 3 +3 possible power with one card is great.
Getting the possibilty to blow shit of the opponent in the process is awesome too.

[Anusien]

If you need to kill multiple permanents, Terastodon does it much better.

Iona is pretty good in the combo matchup, but it seems mostly that it's only good when you're already ahead. I wonder if Terastodon kill your lands is as good as Iona at racing combo.

[e=mc^2]

Iona naming black does not really need to race. I don't know how many answers they can wish for, but it is pretty good against ANT.

[1maarten1]

Ok i'll share my thoughts :)!

First off: The storm combo (ANT) matchup is bad.

Iona vs storm: When she comes into play, you will have to call blue since if you call black they will just Mystical tutor into Chain of vapor and bounce it. And when you dont call black they will just go off without noticing her. In such a situation I would much rather have a terastodon to blow up all of their lands, which buys me more time to maybe get a horde of zombie and play a FKZ to try to race.

I dont play any MD DR targets (except troll) and I have never regret it. Also if you manage to pump out a 20/20 troll fast against combo, you might have a very small chance of winning. But most of the time, they will just go off before you DR anything or do it the turn after. I dont play Iona MD or SB, and I havent found myself missing it. I did test it, but I end up cutting it since I never found it nessecary, I now play a extra land over a random MD DR target.

~Maarten

[Dredgehammer]

Iona naming Black will buy you a couple of turns or win the game, depending on whether or not they play Chain of Vapor MD or side it in against you. Also, against slower versions like DDANT or NLS if they're on the draw you can easily be quicker than them.

[SlopeeJ]

Don't underestimate the elephant, its hard for any deck to come back with no lands. Or at least it buys you turns, esp with cabal therapies.

[Adan]

I find it best to keep it in one, straight up pile (like an upside-down deck), and always after dredging offer it to my opponent to look through. As a bonus, you're opponents might make mistakes when they don't remember your whole graveyard. Not really cheating, but they can't demand you to eat up half a table to have all your cards visible.

However, you should do it for the sake of clarity. If you miscount on Bridges or Bloodghasts, you will be annoyed all day long.

I have goldfished my Vintage Dredge and taken a picture to give you the idea how you could (and maybe should) do it:
http://img175.imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img175/9329/13052010069.jpg&via=mupload

The zones can be figured out quite easily I guess.

[Dredgehammer]

That seems like a reasonable way to have your graveyard visible, but it does consume a lot of space.

But why Bloodghast? Ichorid is infinitely superior.

[Adan]

That seems like a reasonable way to have your graveyard visible, but it does consume a lot of space.

But it really helps you because you will always have a good overview of your graveyard and therefore also your resources. And I hate it when other Dredge-players are doing it like you. Not only because it looks sloppy, but if I were your opponent, I'd go insane because I definitely don't want to keep track of your graveyard after every dredge. Because THIS consumes a lot of TIME, which is more important during a tournament.

Plus, it looks great when you have your Dredge pimped out.


But why Bloodghast? Ichorid is infinitely superior.

Not in Vintage.

[Dredgehammer]

But it really helps you because you will always have a good overview of your graveyard and therefore also your resources. And I hate it when other Dredge-players are doing it like you. Not only because it looks sloppy, but if I were your opponent, I'd go insane because I definitely don't want to keep track of your graveyard after every dredge. Because THIS consumes a lot of TIME, which is more important during a tournament.

Plus, it looks great when you have your Dredge pimped out.

It might be sloppy to keep the graveyard in one pile, but it's not like most players will recognise a Dredge card by the first few letters of it's name and it's colour when your cards are carefully layed out. And I bet it'll take time to order your graveyard that carefully, too :smile:

[Anusien]

The graveyard does in fact have to be kept in a single pile. It can be a long pile, but a single pile is the requirement.

[drawer]

I play similar to Adan except flipped so my graveyard is on the bottom and battlefield is on top. Your opponent isn't expected to recognize every card from the amount you have visible, but there are a few common questions like "how many bridges/ichorids/dredgers" that they will ask. When you play this way you can answer those questions easily in a couple of seconds. It also helps to keep track for yourself instead of having to sift through a pile of cards everytime you need to check something.

[Anusien]

I don't think one pile is required, but keeping order correct is. I keep mine in starting piles 10 tall/deep?and just keep adding them as I go along.
I'd appreciate the next time myself or another judge posts about a rule, don't immediately chime in and "correct" us.

So things are clear:

404.2. Each graveyard is kept in a single face-up pile. A player can examine the cards in any graveyard at any time but normally can’t change their order. Additional rules applying to DCI-sanctioned tournaments may allow a player to change the order of cards in his or her graveyard.

[TheSleeper]

Hey guys how does the mirror play out? Would you bother to pack say 3 Tormod's for it? Also does anyone run Greater Gargadon anymore (in general)?

[bakofried]

Thank you for clarifying. However:
The qualifier "I don't think" was present in the original post, because I was obviously unsure.

[Zappa]

Me, I keep my graveyard on the right side, just because it feels more convenient for me. The piles are actually in columns for me, and whenever I am dredging a lot, say through Breakthrough, whatever narcomoeba I come across, I just put it in the graveyard, but they are facing sideways (like a tapped land). Therefore I don't miss a trigger, and later put them into play when breakthrough has finished resolving. But yeah, my piles are in columns and narcomoeba's are sideways when being dredged.

[1maarten1]

Hey guys how does the mirror play out? Would you bother to pack say 3 Tormod's for it? Also does anyone run Greater Gargadon anymore (in general)?

If you want to pack hate for the mirror go get Leylines, because they will protect your own bridges too ;)

~Maarten

[Ozymandias]

I keep my graveyard in one single pile placed squarely behind my deck. If you can't remember these quantities after 1-2 flipthroughs, with a refersher every draw step:

#ichorids
# bridges
#DRs
#Therapies
# dredgers (if your outlet is dead/DDD)
# black creatures
#relevant DR targets

Then you are playing this deck wrong.

[Hrelja]

Hello everybody, I'm mostly an Extended player who will try and make the jump to this format... and I got all of the cards for the deck (well, I'm missing Therapies and Tarnished Citadel/Undiscovered Paradise, but I'll find them, it's no biggie).

I have an opening hand up for discussion:
if you play 11 dredgers, and get this:
Bridge, Bridge, Pimp, Dread Return, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Tarnished Citadel,

would you keep?

Other than that, I'm reading up on the deck from the beginning and it's quite helpful.

DH

[Raptor]

Hello everybody, I'm mostly an Extended player who will try and make the jump to this format... and I got all of the cards for the deck (well, I'm missing Therapies and Tarnished Citadel/Undiscovered Paradise, but I'll find them, it's no biggie).

I have an opening hand up for discussion:
if you play 11 dredgers, and get this:
Bridge, Bridge, Pimp, Dread Return, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Tarnished Citadel,

would you keep?

Other than that, I'm reading up on the deck from the beginning and it's quite helpful.

DH

I wouldn't keep this.
WAY too risky, especially if you don't know what you are agaisnt. A rule of thumb is to never keep a hand without a dredger. There are still some chance that you won't find one in your next 6 cards. Careful study can get countered, breakthrough too, your citadel can get wasted, you might not find a dredger in your two draw spells.

[Exospaciac]

So... is there ANYTHING this deck can and/or should do against storm combo?
I went 3-3 today, my losses ALL being to storm decks, 2 ANT and 1 Belcher. Three of the games I got T1'ed, two of them when I was on the draw with a god hand of Pimp, Breakthrough, GGT, land, x.

My sideboard for the tournament was this:
1 Iona
1 Terastodon (couldn't get Woodfall Primus)
1 FKZ
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation

Against ANT I brought in all 4 DR targets. If I'm able to bring any of them back it pretty much seals the game, either locking them out or swinging the life totals enough for me to squeak out the win.
Against Belcher I brought in Iona and Ancestor's Chosen.

Really, should I just sideboard Mindbreak Traps and mull to oblivion to find them? THREE turn 1 kills, and two more turn 2 kills in one day really, really bugs me.

[drawer]

So... is there ANYTHING this deck can and/or should do against storm combo?
I went 3-3 today, my losses ALL being to storm decks, 2 ANT and 1 Belcher. Three of the games I got T1'ed, two of them when I was on the draw with a god hand of Pimp, Breakthrough, GGT, land, x.

My sideboard for the tournament was this:
1 Iona
1 Terastodon (couldn't get Woodfall Primus)
1 FKZ
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation

Really, should I just sideboard Mindbreak Traps and mull to oblivion to find them? THREE turn 1 kills, and two more turn 2 kills in one day really, really bugs me.

My board looks like this:
4 Force of Will
3 Echoing Truth
2 Chain of Vapor
1 FKZ
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Ancient Grudge

Force of Will is so good because no one expects it, against Belcher you're bringing in Echoing Truth as well so you have more blue cards to pitch. This board has been very good for me mostly because of the Forces, they come in for a lot of matchups and catch people totally off guard.

[Anusien]

If you just want to beat Combo, sideboarding Unmask or Chalice or Mindbreak Trap or FoW (probably in that order, although Chalice may be better) is a much better solution than sideboarding extra shitty conditional Dread Return targets.

[(nameless one)]

I got bored so I actually checked possibilities from DeckCheck. I noticed that a lot of top4 decks are packing Iona on main as a DR target. A lot of people are also not using Darkblast on main anymore.

What is the general consensus when it comess to DR targets here? Also, for information purposes, Digital Devil used 3 Darkblasts on the side.

On the sideboard, like what Anusien mentioned, should we concentrate with spells or DR targets? No doubt that Terrastodon is a powerhouse but outside of that, are Angel of Despair and FKZ worth the SB spot? Unmask and Forces seems tempting on the side.

There was a discussion on Chain of Vapor vs. Nature's Claim. I do agree that dealing with a problem artifact or enchantment permanently is better than dealing with it for a turn. That in turn, I also believe we should pack some sort of creature hate on the SB.

Possible SB:

1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
3 Darkblast
4 Unmask/Force of Will

Any comments?

[Exospaciac]

Anusien is right, and no, I don't think FKZ is worth the spot. I never once DR'ed him. Iona also did not seem worth the slot. I'd reanimate her, but at that point the only thing that would have kept me from winning with a Troll would have been something like topdecked Plow. She's definitely win more.

My biggest reason for wanting Mindbreak Trap is if we lose game 1, then win game 2, we still have a shot at winning game 3 no matter what they do... as long as we have the Trap in our opener. Storm combo goes off turn 1 much, much more often than I expected (either that or I just got really unlucky...).

I think this would be a really good sideboard:

1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon/Woodfall Primus
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Mindbreak Trap/Chalice/Unmask/FoW
2 Nature's Claim/Ray of Revelation/Darkblast/whatever

I really like Chain of Vapor against Reanimator, and it's a good thing to board in G2 if you don't know what kind of hate you'll be facing.

edit: Also, if you really feel you need some kind of creature hate, you can very easily maindeck two Darkblasts. My maindeck is McCall's minus one Golgari Thug for the second Darkblast, and I love it.

[Anusien]

My maindeck is -1 Darkblast +1 Terastodon off Max's maindeck.

My sideboard would be something like:
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void

This is assuming you basically only care about combo, Reanimator, Dredge, and beating hate. You'll be in trouble against other decks.

[Arne]

how do you use mindbreak trap... I mean, once they know you play it in the side, they'll use a duress or chant to stop you from using it. Maybe you'll catch them off guard in the second game (assuming you lose the first) but the third game is not so difficult for ANT with duress or Chant...

[YigSnakeDaddy]

Dunnoh if the Trap's that useful, since it only works if you have it in your hand. I'd be terribly worried about it getting dredged away and missing at a crucial time.
And are you really gonna do mulligans until you have it?

[Digital Devil]

I got bored so I actually checked possibilities from DeckCheck. I noticed that a lot of top4 decks are packing Iona on main as a DR target. A lot of people are also not using Darkblast on main anymore.
I'm in love with maindeck Iona. It's the reason I started playing this deck. It's BROKEN. It's a slower FKZ that still wins the game but doesn't depend on Bridge from Below, which is a huge plus. Zealot helps only against storm combo, but they're still a turn ahead since they have a faster clock. IMHO, Zealot only belongs to a LED shell, because it can exploit its innate speed.


What is the general consensus when it comess to DR targets here? Also, for information purposes, Digital Devil used 3 Darkblasts on the side.
Personally, I think 4 GGT + Iona is enough. I don't want my deck to be filled with useless cards, so Iona is the only creature whose single purpose is to be reanimated, while in the worst case GGT is a Dredge-6 creature. About Darkblast... when building a deck, just look at my lists, then do differently: you'll perform greatly, I swear XD XD


On the sideboard, like what Anusien mentioned, should we concentrate with spells or DR targets? No doubt that Terrastodon is a powerhouse but outside of that, are Angel of Despair and FKZ worth the SB spot? Unmask and Forces seems tempting on the side.
I dislike both Woodfall Primus and Terastodon - they deal with permanents which are already dealt with Nature's Claim/Ancient Grudge. If they have a Leyline, you're not Dread Returning a single creature. If they have Crypt/Relic, they just pop up their artifact in response. There still are Ghostly Prison/Ensnaring Bridge/Moat/Elephant Grass/Wheel of Sun and Moon/Whatever, but then Nature's Claim is better, since it's cheaper and INSTANT. If you play Terastodon/Primus, you have to do that in your mainphase. If you play EOT Nature's Claim, you can use that same Dread Return for Iona, for Eternal Witness to recur your used Nature's Claim, all this while not giving your opponent a single 3/3, or wasting sideboard slots with Primus. Also, remember an important thing: you're wasting an attack, since your DR targets don't have haste. Since this deck is capable of doing 10+ damage in a single turn, it means you're throwing away a chance to win. Ok, Terastodon is huge and deals with problematic permanents all at once, while Primus depends on Cabal Therapy/Dread Return to destroy a second permanent. Agreed, if I had to choose between Primus/Terastodon, I'd pick Terastodon. But I don't want to be too redundant, I want some "omnibus rebus responsum" cards. So, I want Angel of Despair. Angel of Despair is good, since you can play it to kill itself and eventually generate an insane number of zombies (in case you need more blockers than you have); Angel of Despair is Ichorid food; Angel of Despair flies; most importantly, Angel of Despair also deals with creatures. There are only a few creatures which are a pain for us, but I don't want to occasionally scoop because of a Windborn Muse, Phyrexian Dreadnought or anything dangerous. Anyway, Jailer/Gaddock Teeg/Meddling Mage still die to Darkblast(s).


There was a discussion on Chain of Vapor vs. Nature's Claim. I do agree that dealing with a problem artifact or enchantment permanently is better than dealing with it for a turn. That in turn, I also believe we should pack some sort of creature hate on the SB.
Maybe I'm the only one here, but I find Claim to be better than Chain. We don't have the explosiveness of LED Ichorid to hope to win outright. Also, I believe most players pack Chain in their sb because our Vintage counterpart does so. This is Legacy: you bounce their hate, they re-play it the very next turn; you destroy their hate, they're screwed forever.


Anusien is right, and no, I don't think FKZ is worth the spot. I never once DR'ed him. Iona also did not seem worth the slot. I'd reanimate her, but at that point the only thing that would have kept me from winning with a Troll would have been something like topdecked Plow. She's definitely win more.
Imagine a scenario where you have the chance to fast-Dread Return a creature. Troll dies to everything and can be chump blocked, Iona wins the same turn it enters the battlefield, and if your opponent is still willing to continue the game, it is a 7/7 with flying. You're right about Zealot, since to win with it, you need to be ahead. Iona, though, seals both games you're winning and makes you win games you were losing. I have empyrical proof about this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. All this obviously IMHO.

[(nameless one)]

Cool, thanks for the info Digital Devil!

Back to Sideboarding:

Instead of using Darkblast as a creature removal, what about Swords to Plowshares, possibly Path to Exile? With no Chain of Vapour on the side, how do we deal with a resolved reanimated creature naming black? I figured since we are already producing any color, why not pick the white option? Yes, it does gain the opponent life but doesn't Nature's Claim do that anyways? Also, with StP or PtE, your target can be any size and they do not hit the 'yard.

This is Digital Devil's SB:




// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus


This would be my ideal side:



4 Nature's Claim
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Angel of Despair/Terastodon/Woodfall Primus (still contemplating on which one)
2 Open Slot (possibly Unmask or Force of Will)


Any comments?

[Anusien]

Without some form of Primus/Terastodon/Angel of Despair, you can't really beat Lands or Enchantress in game 1. And you're going to struggle against Stax and Ghostly Prison as well.

Iona is almost certainly better against combo, but that's the only matchup it is. If you get a chance to Dread Return against combo, you're probably doing alright anyway. And post-board, Ancestor's Chosen is a fine Dread Return target to bring in because it gains you a million life. Iona seems awesome. But I don't think it's significantly better than reanimating something else, and there is a steep opportunity cost. I am just not impressed with Iona's ability to not be a blank during most of the game. I don't really want a single dedicated DR target, but at least Angel and Terastodon get you out of bad matchups.

Also, reanimating Angel of Despair to kill itself is about the worst idea I've ever heard.

Honestly, the only Dread Return targets I think are non-awful: Ancestor's Chosen, Terastodon, Angel of Despair, Golgari Grave-Troll and Stinkweed Imp.

[bakofried]

@Anusien
1. Stinkweed Imp? Why is he not awful? I'm new to the deck, so I don't really have any evidence for this, but...what makes him non-awful? I kind of think Thug would be a better choice to DR.
2. How do you lay out your GY? I've been trounced by the rules, so how do you do it?

Also, in general:
There is someone in my meta who plays Enlightened Tutor control. It's kind of funky, and rather budget, but there is one combo i'm rather afraid of, and that is Academy Ruins+Crypt. Should I board in Leyline for this MU to prevent those shenanigans? He also uses Grindstone as a win-con, any tips?

[frogboy]

@Anusien
1. Stinkweed Imp? Why is he not awful? I'm new to the deck, so I don't really have any evidence for this, but...what makes him non-awful?

I have put Stinkweed Imp in front of Emrakul. Suck it.

[Anusien]

I have put Stinkweed Imp in front of Blazing Archon against Reanimator. Suck it. Reanimator basically can't win through Stinkweed Imp, which gives you inevitability if you have some way to win in your 60.

I would not run Leyline against CB/Top decks. If the game goes long, they're gonna win no matter which ridiculously slow setup spells they use. Over-sideboarding to answer some of these comboes instead of running aggressive cards is going to wreck you. So if you pack Leyline, you're more likely to not win quickly and end up in the late game where they can blow you out with Humility/Moat/whatever.

[bakofried]

I have been thoroughly pwned. XD
*EDIT: just answered

[(nameless one)]

So what happens when Iona on black shows up on the other side on game 1? Would Chain of Vapor be enough for her on game 2?

Hasn't anyone tried Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile on their side?

[Rune]

So what happens when Iona on black shows up on the other side on game 1? Would Chain of Vapor be enough for her on game 2?

Hasn't anyone tried Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile on their side?

Why would Swords/Path to better than Chain of Vapor against her? As I see it, you just give them 7 life or a land instead of giving them a dead card in hand. Iona only gets cheated into play, and it's not very likely that she will reappear anytime soon if she gets bounced.

[TheSleeper]

I won in the face of 'Iona on black' 2 games in a row yesterday vs. Reanimator. I had chump fliers to block and could just race them easily. Blazing Archon is scarier IMO, as I had no pre-SB answers. With SB I DR'd an Angel of Despair to kill Archon and swing for the win. This was after losing about 40 cards thanks to Ravenous Trap (grr). Keeping a Dredger in hand at all times ftw!

[Exospaciac]

So what happens when Iona on black shows up on the other side on game 1? Would Chain of Vapor be enough for her on game 2?

Hasn't anyone tried Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile on their side?

I can't see why just bouncing her, even for one turn, isn't effective. You should be able to go off during the turn she's gone, and after that, you don't need any spells. All Iona on black does is prevent us from DRing a huge troll back, but really, who cares about that when you have zombie hordes and recurring Ichorids?

Archon isn't too bad either. Just build up dudes, Therapy the countermagic away, eot bounce, and swing for the win.

[bakofried]

I've been doing a lot of goldfishing lately, and I've been seeing quite a few of what I consider crap hands. I was wondering if anyone would mind if I posted 5 different sample hands, along with their subsequent mulligans if I choose to take them. I'd like critique on that, but I don't want to clog up the boards. Does anyone have a problem with it?

Also, with respect to (nameless one):
Personally, I think Chain is a catch-all answer. It bounces everything, from Iona, to Yixlid Jailer, to Moat. Chain only takes 4 slots, whereas your proposed SB takes up 8 to deal w/ problem permanents.

[Arne]

@ Bakofried,

Why is that even a question? You're not clogging up the board... I mean, I don't consider working on an optimal build clogging... Feel free and post the hands you think are worth keeping and the hands you think are worth mulling. I'm interested

[Digital Devil]

Also, reanimating Angel of Despair to kill itself is about the worst idea I've ever heard.
I'm not pretending someone else's going to do that, because it only works if you are at 1 life, you have 3 Bridge from Below in your graveyard and 3 non-token creatures on the battlefield, and your opponent has 12 creatures. It happened to me while playing against a deck packing Empty the Warrens. I won that game thanks to this otherwise awful move... it's not that I'm playing Angel only to do that, since it's just a deep-space-corner case. Also,


when building a deck, just look at my lists, then do differently: you'll perform greatly, I swear.


Honestly, the only Dread Return targets I think are non-awful: Ancestor's Chosen, Terastodon, Angel of Despair, Golgari Grave-Troll and Stinkweed Imp.
I agree.

[bakofried]

Ok, so first I pile shuffle, (5 across 3 down) then I riffle shuffle a few times. For reference, I'm using frogboy's list.
First Hand:
Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy, Careful Study, Ichorid, Cephalid Coliseum, Gemstone Min, Gemstone Mine
I think I should mulligan this. I could draw into a dredger with the study, but I might not, which would be a pain.
Mull to Six:
Bridge, Ichorid, Careful Study, Stinkweed Imp, Breakthrough, Gemstone Mine
I'm fairly certain this is a keeper. The Study will at least drop an Imp; this might lead to turn 2 awesome breakthrough (unless I get a bad dredge)
Did I mulligan correctly? Goldfishing the first few turns says no. First turn I Studied into Tarnished Citadel+something unimportant, discarding Bridge+Imp. The dredge turned up poor, hitting Bridges, and a Therapy+DR, but nothing else with dredge. I Therapy myself (correct play, or no?) to dump the Imp with Ichorid and Breakthrough in hand, I go to Breakthrough, and whiff. Should I have held off, and dredged during my draw step first? Is whiffing on Breakthrough as big a disaster as I'm imagining? Or should I care less?
Second Hand:
Cabal Therapy x2, DR, Gemstone, Citadel, Study, Ichorid.
Again, no dredger. I have a Study to dig for one, and possibly Therapies to dump them if I draw them later, but it doesn't look promising. I'm shipping it back.
Mull to Six:
Ichorid (he's always in my opener, for some reason) Careful Study, Tribe, Mine, City, Coliseum.
I'm shipping it back; no dredger.
Mull to Five:
Tribe x3, Narc x2.
Nuff said.
Mull to Four:
Tribe, Darkblast, Therapy, Mine.
I have an outlet, a dredger, and land. I'm not taking any chances on going beneath 4. How do the first couple turns go? Well, my first dredge hits double troll, so I'm happy.
Third Hand:
GGT, Stinkweed, Therapy, Bridge, Ichorid (WTF), Darkblast, Coliseum.
Well, if I was on the draw, I might keep it, but not on the play. Let's assume I'm on the play.
Mull to Six:
PImp, PImp, Breakthrough, Breakthrough, Imp, Narc.
No.
Mull to Five:
PImp, Darkblast, Breakthrough, Narc, Mine.
The dredge count may be minimal, but I have a perm. outlet along with a draw spell. I can't resist.
At this point I need to stop for the night. Let me know what you think though. Here are my main concerns/questions:
1. When do you draw, and when do you dredge? Do you always dredge? Or do you try to peel a land sometimes?
2. Zombie tokens - How valuable are they? If I've only hit 1 Bridge but have 3 Cabal Therapies+1 DR in the GY, and a PImp, Narc x2 on the field, should I reanimate a troll, or hold off?
3. Draw spells. Should I be afraid to blow them occasionally?

[Digital Devil]

First Hand:
Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy, Careful Study, Ichorid, Cephalid Coliseum, Gemstone Min, Gemstone Mine
I think I should mulligan this. I could draw into a dredger with the study, but I might not, which would be a pain.I would have mulled to 6, too.


Mull to Six:
Bridge, Ichorid, Careful Study, Stinkweed Imp, Breakthrough, Gemstone Mine
I'm fairly certain this is a keeper. The Study will at least drop an Imp; this might lead to turn 2 awesome breakthrough (unless I get a bad dredge)
Did I mulligan correctly? Goldfishing the first few turns says no. First turn I Studied into Tarnished Citadel+something unimportant, discarding Bridge+Imp. The dredge turned up poor, hitting Bridges, and a Therapy+DR, but nothing else with dredge. I Therapy myself (correct play, or no?) to dump the Imp with Ichorid and Breakthrough in hand, I go to Breakthrough, and whiff. Should I have held off, and dredged during my draw step first? Is whiffing on Breakthrough as big a disaster as I'm imagining? Or should I care less?
Guess you were unlucky. Since this is sort of an enigma, you might want to say if you are on the play or on the draw. I dislike goldfishing because you always play as if you were on the play, but sometimes you lose the die roll, and sometimes you want to draw first. Assuming it is pure goldfishing, I would have done your same exact moves. Don't know if it would have been bad, but in your same exact situation (dredging chaff and nothing with Dredge) I would still have Therapied myself naming Imp, and then played Breakthrough, since that is the only way to chain dredgers and recover from previous bad mills. Of course it's goldfishing.


Second Hand:
Cabal Therapy x2, DR, Gemstone, Citadel, Study, Ichorid.
Again, no dredger. I have a Study to dig for one, and possibly Therapies to dump them if I draw them later, but it doesn't look promising. I'm shipping it back.

It's a risky keep, but I think it's mandatory to mull.


Mull to Six:
Ichorid (he's always in my opener, for some reason) Careful Study, Tribe, Mine, City, Coliseum.
I'm shipping it back; no dredger.
I'm shipping it back, too - this hand is much like the first, except it has one card less. If I didn't keep the first, why should I play with this? I do admit Tribe in the opener is tempting, though... Maybe if I weren't playing in solo mode and were on the draw against some slow deck I would have kept, but I'm not 100% sure about it.


Mull to Five:
Tribe x3, Narc x2.
Nuff said.
XD


Mull to Four:
Tribe, Darkblast, Therapy, Mine.
I have an outlet, a dredger, and land. I'm not taking any chances on going beneath 4. How do the first couple turns go? Well, my first dredge hits double troll, so I'm happy.
Pretty good draw for a 4 card hand. I would have kept this too, but my moves would change depending on against which deck I would challenge at the moment. While goldfishing, it's still pretty good.


Third Hand:
GGT, Stinkweed, Therapy, Bridge, Ichorid (WTF), Darkblast, Coliseum.
Well, if I was on the draw, I might keep it, but not on the play. Let's assume I'm on the play.
Right.


Mull to Six:
PImp, PImp, Breakthrough, Breakthrough, Imp, Narc.
No.

Mull to Five:
PImp, Darkblast, Breakthrough, Narc, Mine.
The dredge count may be minimal, but I have a perm. outlet along with a draw spell. I can't resist.
I'm keeping too.


1. When do you draw, and when do you dredge? Do you always dredge? Or do you try to peel a land sometimes?
2. Zombie tokens - How valuable are they? If I've only hit 1 Bridge but have 3 Cabal Therapies+1 DR in the GY, and a PImp, Narc x2 on the field, should I reanimate a troll, or hold off?
3. Draw spells. Should I be afraid to blow them occasionally?
1. Against matchups like Stax/Enchantress, I sometimes need to draw that Nature's Claim, or that rainbow land to cast it. But don't bother me, I often mull aggressively until I have an answer, then dredge until I have a dominant board position, hoping to seal the game before they establish their lock, then if I can't win I sometimes cross my fingers to draw an out instead of dredging. Most times I do dredge, unless I know my opponent has a Ravenous Trap... and I also start to draw when my opponent has a Leyline/Wheel of Sun and Moon, but that one is obvious =)
2. You have to do some maths in order to understand what you should sacrifice to DR. If you fear some sweeper (Wrath/Deed, for example), you sometimes want to sacrifice your Zombies, so if they sweep the board, and you have Bridge(s) in your graveyard, you still get some zombie tokens to continue the aggro plan the next turn. And sometimes you want to sacrifice your 3 non-token creatures because you have 2/3/4 Bridges in your graveyard, and want to put a million of Zombies into play. I guess it depends on the situation.
3. I sometimes play blind Careful Studies, because I find them to be the less important cards in the deck (and I almost always side them out g2)... but be sure that I won't play Breakthrough unless I have 1/2 dredgers in my graveyard.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously I speak because I need to improve, too, so don't take seriously what I said.

[sunshine]

3. I sometimes play blind Careful Studies, because I find them to be the less important cards in the deck (and I almost always side them out g2)... but be sure that I won't play Breakthrough unless I have 1/2 dredgers in my graveyard.

This is one thing I disagree with. In my testing and experience I've found Careful Study to be one of our most valuable cards, especially in postboard games. Next to Cabal Therapy I would say Study is actually the most misplayed card in the deck. Study allows you to rebuild quickly after getting your graveyard wiped without committing your entire hand, and digs for that second land.

I often see player s spending their draw spells when they already have a commanding board position. Over committing resources from your hand to the yard is the easiest way to maximize the efficiency of your opponent’s Crypts/Relics/Traps/Bogs/whatevers.

This is not to say there won’t be times when it is correct to use all of your draw spells early in a postboard game. But in my mind those situations generally involve hands that have no other discard, matchups where finding another land is paramount, or faster opposing decks with no real way to dig – and still only after you’ve seen their hand or are facing heavy pressure.

[Digital Devil]

This is one thing I disagree with. In my testing and experience I've found Careful Study to be one of our most valuable cards, especially in postboard games. Next to Cabal Therapy I would say Study is actually the most misplayed card in the deck. Study allows you to rebuild quickly after getting your graveyard wiped without committing your entire hand, and digs for that second land.

I often see player s spending their draw spells when they already have a commanding board position. Over committing resources from your hand to the yard is the easiest way to maximize the efficiency of your opponent’s Crypts/Relics/Traps/Bogs/whatevers.

This is not to say there won’t be times when it is correct to use all of your draw spells early in a postboard game. But in my mind those situations generally involve hands that have no other discard, matchups where finding another land is paramount, or faster opposing decks with no real way to dig – and still only after you’ve seen their hand or are facing heavy pressure.
I agree with the fact that Careful Study can help finding our anti-hate cards, but what are you siding out, then? Dredgers? Bridges? I think the same exact things you said about Breakthrough, except you have to pay 1 mana more if you want to keep your Chains/Claims, but you dig twice deeper. So, I side out Studies.

[whidye]

Hey guys,

I finally finished a dredge list that I would like to start trying out and was wondering what your thoughts were. I don't know if its just me, but when I play the deck with Ichorids only I find that it takes me too long to be able to dredge return something - so I've really been trying to get Bloodghasts in the deck. I read the first page and then from 81-93, and I haven't really seen (or remember... the two in a list) so please let me know if something is going greviously wrong ;p


4 GGT
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
1 FKZ
1 Iona

4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 BFB

4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Cephalid Coliseum

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Firestorm
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon
1 Realm Razer


So the list has 12 dredgers, which I think feels correct - except two of them only dredge 2. I'm also not really happy about not having Tireless Tribes, but I figure that I "gain" life due to not running Tarnished Citadel - still I would like to run them if I could fit them somewhere ;( I also have around 10 black creatures that I don't mind removing to Ichorid; and 27 creatures total (6 good DR targets). Although, I need help with sideboarding. Note: I often take out my "explosive" cards for SBing in order to get trump cards - I don't know if this is correct.

I often don't know what they are going to bring in, so against Zoo/aggro decks (and change DR targets): +2 Firestorm, +3 Grudge, -3 Careful Study, -2 Breakthrough.
Against lands/loam/reanimate - bring in leylines, take out MD reanimation targets and 2 careful study (if reanimate), take out 3 study/2 break if loam/lands (assuming they are on bojuka bog plan almost exclusively, bring in razer - no FKZ). Against any control type deck bring in chains/terastodon.

So, give me some pointers!

Thanks.

[Exospaciac]

A few things about your list:

1. I'm not convinced by Bloodghast. I've had no problems getting a Dread Return target on turn 2 consistently with just 3 Ichorids and 4 Narcomoebas (using frogboy's list). Don't be afraid to sacrifice Zombies to get your huge DR target. Yes, there are times where I have to wait a turn to Dread Return, but usually I Therapy my opponent out and make sure they can't do anything so my next turn is safe.

2. The two Dread Return targets you run maindeck are, in my opinion, not worth running. Both of them are win more. Flame-Kin Zealot only helps race combo (if they haven't gone off in your face before you DR it) and while Iona wins games, a 20/20 Troll wins almost all of those same games. You already have Cabal Therapies to make sure your opponent can't play any good spells. Iona is overkill.

If you want to maindeck Dread Return targets, go with either Terastodon or Woodfall Primus. This will help your Lands, Stax, and Enchantress matchups G1. Everything else but combo is already at your mercy G1.

This is all just IMO, but it's mostly stuff I've learned from the others in this thread.

[whidye]

A few things about your list:

1. I'm not convinced by Bloodghast. I've had no problems getting a Dread Return target on turn 2 consistently with just 3 Ichorids and 4 Narcomoebas (using frogboy's list). Don't be afraid to sacrifice Zombies to get your huge DR target. Yes, there are times where I have to wait a turn to Dread Return, but usually I Therapy my opponent out and make sure they can't do anything so my next turn is safe.


Do you mind linking me to frogboy's list? I've noticed everybody mentioning it - but I couldn't find it ;(

I like my MD DR targets - but I will think about them. I suppose if I removed FKZ/Iona I could add 2 Tribes?

[Exospaciac]

Sure. Here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18948_Ideas_Unbound_Legacy_Dredge.html) is a link to the article he wrote on SCG. A must read for all Dredge players.
I play his exact list -1 Golgari Thug for +1 Darkblast.
His list is probably the best Dredge list to use as a base, or just to straight up netdeck.

[drawer]

It's pointless talking about Bloodghast in this thread. People just ignore you because they don't think it's good.
I play a list similar to yours and I've done pretty well with it. It's your list -1 Cabal Therapy, -1 DR, -1 FKZ +1 Careful Study, +1 Gemstone Mine, +1 Terastodon. My board is different too.

[sunshine]

I agree with the fact that Careful Study can help finding our anti-hate cards, but what are you siding out, then? Dredgers? Bridges? I think the same exact things you said about Breakthrough, except you have to pay 1 mana more if you want to keep your Chains/Claims, but you dig twice deeper. So, I side out Studies.

The fact that Careful Study digs for anti-hate is second in importance to the fact that you get to keep your hand intact, IMO. There are plenty of situations where you want to keep cards in your hand other than just a single Claim or Chain - and that's if you have spare mana (for example, I would feel rather uncomfortable dumping all my dredgers in the yard game two unles I knew I could win that turn). As for sideboarding, it's greatly dependent on what you're facing and your exact board - as you might have guessed though I generally take out Breakthrough first as I feel it is simply a liability postboard.

Against storm combo I will pull Careful Study before Breakthrough, but in all other MUs every Breakthrough comes out before I reach for any CS.

[Gibbie_X]

Curious, why hasn't the addition of entomb been discussed? I have seriously played 4 games with it, and have lost none of them.... it has just made me a believer.

Lands
1 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise

Creatures
3 [TO] Ichorid
3 [ZEN] Bloodghast
1 [ZEN] Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
1 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot

Spells
2 [TE] Lotus Petal
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [OD] Careful Study

Sideboard
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

The trick I have learned, cast the tutor before you cast any draw spells, boosting your dredge capabilities.

I should state that this was the first time actually playing this deck. I hated this deck with a passion, now I like it, I don't know why.

[Digital Devil]

<list>
No Putrid Imp? No Tireless Tribe? Lotus Petal? Only TWO Therapies? A 13 cards sideboard?

*Tries to be constructive*

The reason Entomb shouldn't be in this deck is that it's cool, but it's a one-shot card, while both PImp/Tribe make you dredge regularly. Both creatures help Dread Returning your wincon, while Entomb doesn't (unless you entomb Narcomoeba; and even in that case, PImp/Tribe help you both dredging and casting DR: Entomb makes you choose between one of these options). You're also forced to use your mana on that spell, while you really want to break that Cephalid Coliseum or cast that Therapy. We're tight on mana, and we have better things to do with it. While in your graveyard, Entomb does exactly nothing; additional dredgers help you mill your deck faster. What happens if after the first hypotetical GGT dredge 6 you don't have another dredger in your graveyard? PImp/Tribe would have solved this problem. About the quantities of some cards... 2x Lotus Petal? Don't you want it to be in you first hand? Play 4, then. But why should you play Lotus Petal over, say, LED? Lotus Petal does absolutely nothing but eating precious slots and making sideboarding easier. I'm not a super-dredge-pro, but IMHO there's something in your list that needs to be explained.

[Dredgehammer]

@ Gibbie_X

Entomb and Careful Study seem to be your only ways of getting Dredgers in the yard, save Cabal Therapying yourself (There is BETTER USE for Cabal Therapy).
In what way does Entomb make this deck more consistant or explosive?
I don't see how your going to win if your GGT found with Entomb dredges into something else than a dredger.
You've also got only 5 creatures other than Ichorids and Ghasts to feed Ichorids.
Why do you not play permanent discard outlets? They're the only way you can win without a Draw 3/4.

[TheSleeper]

I think making minimal changes would produce more useful test data. 3 Entomb seems to swap directly for 3 Careful Study (for ppl running 4 tribe/3 study). You still have 8 permanent discard outlets in Tribe/Pimp if your dredger is in hand. Entomb solves the problem of not having a Troll in hand. Can also give you greater access to your DR singletons. It's been said Careful Study serves a two roles (draw into something/dredge and discard useful cards) but isn't optimal at either. Entomb is certainly more narrow but more powerful. Could be worth testing anyways.

[Ninjineer]

A few things about your list:

1. I'm not convinced by Bloodghast. I've had no problems getting a Dread Return target on turn 2 consistently with just 3 Ichorids and 4 Narcomoebas (using frogboy's list). Don't be afraid to sacrifice Zombies to get your huge DR target. Yes, there are times where I have to wait a turn to Dread Return, but usually I Therapy my opponent out and make sure they can't do anything so my next turn is safe.

2. The two Dread Return targets you run maindeck are, in my opinion, not worth running. Both of them are win more. Flame-Kin Zealot only helps race combo (if they haven't gone off in your face before you DR it) and while Iona wins games, a 20/20 Troll wins almost all of those same games. You already have Cabal Therapies to make sure your opponent can't play any good spells. Iona is overkill.

If you want to maindeck Dread Return targets, go with either Terastodon or Woodfall Primus. This will help your Lands, Stax, and Enchantress matchups G1. Everything else but combo is already at your mercy G1.

This is all just IMO, but it's mostly stuff I've learned from the others in this thread.

I disagree with this statement, at least in my meta, Path to Exile is everywhere. I don't think I've ever seen a Zoo deck that doesn't run it. If Iona names removal color, she is getting in there for the win. I don't see a lot of decks diversifying their removal. Now, against Zoo, they could technically go Burn spell x3, but what are the odds that's in there hand? And against burn, I'd just name Red and cackle.

[Anusien]

You can easily Cabal Therapy away Path to Exile.

[Ninjineer]

You can easily Cabal Therapy away Path to Exile.

Ok, then they see Dread Return in your graveyard, and respond to the Cabal Therapy, by Pathing away one of your three dudes. I'm just saying, that Iona is much more efficient than Golgari Grave-Troll as a Dread Return target. Against Blue, that troll is as good as bounced. Iona names blue and laughs at them. It's worth an include. Just my two cents.

And in the mirror, it flies over chumpy zombies, Tireless Tribe, and Ichorid. "Oh HAI guys, just passing through for seven to the dome"

It's worth an include. Just my two cents.

[(nameless one)]

Ok, then they see Dread Return in your graveyard, and respond to the Cabal Therapy, by Pathing away one of your three dudes. I'm just saying, that Iona is much more efficient than Golgari Grave-Troll as a Dread Return target. Against Blue, that troll is as good as bounced. Iona names blue and laughs at them. It's worth an include. Just my two cents.

And in the mirror, it flies over chumpy zombies, Tireless Tribe, and Ichorid. "Oh HAI guys, just passing through for seven to the dome"

It's worth an include. Just my two cents.

I actually agree with Iona on the main. My main list actually looks like Frogboy's list, the only difference is the single Darkblast on the main is replaced with Iona.

Having Iona alongside GGTroll has never disappointed me. Yes, its a win more but having GGTroll getting bounced reallly pisses me off.

[alderon666]

I actually agree with Iona on the main. My main list actually looks like Frogboy's list, the only difference is the single Darkblast on the main is replaced with Iona.

Having Iona alongside GGTroll has never disappointed me. Yes, its a win more but having GGTroll getting bounced reallly pisses me off.

Iona really randomly wins games. You don't really need it to win, but on some matches it's going to make your life that much easier, and because of that I think it's worth "wasting" one slot in the main.

[paK0]

I actually agree with Iona on the main. My main list actually looks like Frogboy's list, the only difference is the single Darkblast on the main is replaced with Iona.




Made the same change, though I optet to brin in Angel of Despair. With Reanimator being one of the most played decks right now the Angel warrants its Slot, and every now and then there are some other problematic Cards (Tabernacle, Prison). Angel is really flexible, which is why I coose him(her?)

[Digital Devil]

I have some questions about DR targets, too. I don't want to make a half-meter length reply about why I like Iona in the maindeck, so I'm just skipping that part. I currently play 4 Ichorid in my 60. I'm simply asking: since I play Angel of Despair in the sb, wouldn't be acceptable to play a second DR target in the maindeck, namely Angel of Despair, in place of 1x Ichorid? I found most lists play only 3x Ichorids, so I think it could be a reasonable choice. Also, by playing Angel in the maindeck, I have 1 free slot in my sideboard. Now, about my sideboard.
--------------------------------------------------
4x Nature's Claim
3x Ancient Grudge
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Darkblast
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Angel of Despair/*free slot*
--------------------------------------------------
Nature's Claim is ok. You need it to be in your first hand, or to draw it, hence the 4 copies. Ancient Grudge can be in your hand, but can also be found while dredging, thus I think 3 is the right number. Darkblast is awesome against tribal: I'm playing 3x Golgari Thugs maindeck, and I often wonder how would Darkblast perform in place of them. Ancestor's Chosen is, against red decks (and to a lessere extent ANT), a pretty good card. Now it all comes to Leyline of the Void and Angel of Despair.

1. If I play maindeck Angel of Despair, I have 1 free slot. 4th Leyline? 4th Grudge? Flame-Kin Zealot? Against some matchups, like Survival or Enchantress, I found that the absence of FKZ is problematic. Is Zealot worth its slot?

2. What do you think about Faerie Macabre in Leyline's spot? It's instant, free, and unexpected. Also, it feeds Ichorid and counts as a creature for GGT. Maybe I should play 3x Ichorids + 1x Angel of Despair, and switch Leylines for Faeries, filling the remaining slot with the fourth copy of FM?

[1maarten1]

I have some questions about DR targets, too. I don't want to make a half-meter length reply about why I like Iona in the maindeck, so I'm just skipping that part. I currently play 4 Ichorid in my 60. I'm simply asking: since I play Angel of Despair in the sb, wouldn't be acceptable to play a second DR target in the maindeck, namely Angel of Despair, in place of 1x Ichorid? I found most lists play only 3x Ichorids, so I think it could be a reasonable choice. Also, by playing Angel in the maindeck, I have 1 free slot in my sideboard. Now, about my sideboard.
--------------------------------------------------
4x Nature's Claim
3x Ancient Grudge
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Darkblast
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Angel of Despair/*free slot*
--------------------------------------------------
Nature's Claim is ok. You need it to be in your first hand, or to draw it, hence the 4 copies. Ancient Grudge can be in your hand, but can also be found while dredging, thus I think 3 is the right number. Darkblast is awesome against tribal: I'm playing 3x Golgari Thugs maindeck, and I often wonder how would Darkblast perform in place of them. Ancestor's Chosen is, against red decks (and to a lessere extent ANT), a pretty good card. Now it all comes to Leyline of the Void and Angel of Despair.

1. If I play maindeck Angel of Despair, I have 1 free slot. 4th Leyline? 4th Grudge? Flame-Kin Zealot? Against some matchups, like Survival or Enchantress, I found that the absence of FKZ is problematic. Is Zealot worth its slot?

2. What do you think about Faerie Macabre in Leyline's spot? It's instant, free, and unexpected. Also, it feeds Ichorid and counts as a creature for GGT. Maybe I should play 3x Ichorids + 1x Angel of Despair, and switch Leylines for Faeries, filling the remaining slot with the fourth copy of FM?

I just dont get the hype about MD DR targets. I dont run any, except the 4 trolls and I like it more then some random big cool guy. If you want Iona MD, I guess i can understand since she has some uses but I still prefer none.

On the sb thing: Terastodon > Angel imo. Also 1 FKZ in the sb is good to help race combo. And oh yeah: Chain of Vapor is probably like 1000x better then claim.

[Arne]

Iona wins the mirror!

I only use one MD DR target and I'm really pleased with it. I know that a **/** troll can get very far. But a lucky topdeck or whatnot can ruin your day. I like to play it safe when I can and Iona helps me play that way.

[whidye]

So I'm going to play a tournament tomorrow with a list similar to the one I posted (I'm going to repost; and include the two packages I was considering switching out). I am in a fairly control meta and have included the previous three tournament top eights and the top 15 SB cards (quantity-wise).

Here are T8s:
1__________Tezz________Fish______ Reanimate
2__________Belcher______Fae______ GW Aggro
3__________Geddon Stax_Dredge____Rock
4__________Rock_______Fish_______Geddon Stax
5__________ANT_______Ceph. Bkfst_GR Stompy
6__________Elves______ NO Bant____Boros
7__________Reanimate__Pox_______ C/T Bant
8__________Zoo________Belcher____ Painter


Here are SBs (total for 24 finishers from T8s):

Krosan Grip 28
Tormod's Crypt 28
Ethersworn Canonist 15
Relic of Progenitus 12
Pithing Needle 11
Leyline of the Void 10
Pyroblast 10
Ravenous Trap 8
Xantid Swarm 8
Hurkyl's Recall 7
Circle of Protection: Red 6
Enlightened Tutor 6
Extirpate 6
Rack and Ruin 6
Annul 5


My maindeck:

4 GGT
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
2 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Cephalid Coliseam
4 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine

Package 1:
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Golgari Thug

Package 2:
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Bloodghast
1 Tireless Tribe


I'm really torn between if I want to play landfall or tribes. I was told by people who have played in this meta that Sadistic would be a strong MD reanimation target - so I am going to keep that. Any suggestions? I am leaning towards P2 because it relies less on having a discard (although 8 is lots for P1); and P2 has many more black creatures.

Here is my SB:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon

[Exospaciac]

I'd say go with the first package.
You really have 11 discard outlets, not just eight. Careful Study is just as much of a discard outlet as it is half a Breakthrough. Also, don't forget about DDD (draw, discard, dredge), especially against slower control and CB/Top decks. You can get away with it much more than you'd think. Just keep dredging till you can Therapy away their countermagic and resolve a Breakthrough and/or Dread Return.

I don't see how Sadistic Hypnotist is better than, say Iona, and Iona isn't even really THAT good. The only reason I'd think Hypnotist would be worth running is if you are really bad at naming cards with Cabal Therapy.

If you want to run a maindeck DR target, go with either Terastodon or Woodfall Primus. Blow up opposing lands, discard all the good stuff with Therapies, and leave them with a bunch of expensive garbage in their hand while you beat face.

[jimirynk]

In the current meta game Terastodon and Woodfall Primus are worthless MD if you run a MD answer to permanents you need to be running on the can also kill or bounce creatures as well do to us losses game 1 to a blazing archon and glacial chasm, with both decks gaining super popularity I'm changing my list.
Here is a question which is a better MD target vs. lands/re-animator, Angel of despair or a Tidespout Tyrant?
They both have their own pro's and con's, I would like to hear your thoughts.

[BKclassic]

In the current meta game Terastodon and Woodfall Primus are worthless MD if you run a MD answer to permanents you need to be running on the can also kill or bounce creatures as well do to us losses game 1 to a blazing archon and glacial chasm, with both decks gaining super popularity I'm changing my list.
Here is a question which is a better MD target vs. lands/re-animator, Angel of despair or a Tidespout Tyrant?
They both have their own pro's and con's, I would like to hear your thoughts.

Tidespout seems pretty badass. Cabal Therapy is obviously insane with the Tyrant because you can destroy the permanents you are bouncing. Obviously it is a little greedy, but I think running Dark Blast would help negate that risk by being readily cast-able.

[addaro]

I really love this deck. The way it plays. The things it can do. But sometimes... sometimes it just kicks me in the ass! :( Most times it did it to me in tournaments. You know the stuff... you dredge 20 cards 12 are lands and the rest are draw cards (means you do...nothing). There is one dredger in half of your deck and the rest is hiding at the bottom (means you are slow). 4 Ichorids are the last 5 cards. But why am I whining now? I played a home tournament with a friend yesterday and he beat me with 5 different decks. I managed to win only 1 game! It just breaks my spirit :( So my question is: do you have to be a lucky person to play dredge succesfuly or what?

[MMogg]

I really love this deck. The way it plays. The things it can do. But sometimes... sometimes it just kicks me in the ass! :( Most times it did it to me in tournaments. You know the stuff... you dredge 20 cards 12 are lands and the rest are draw cards (means you do...nothing). There is one dredger in half of your deck and the rest is hiding at the bottom (means you are slow). 4 Ichorids are the last 5 cards. But why am I whining now? I played a home tournament with a friend yesterday and he beat me with 5 different decks. I managed to win only 1 game! It just breaks my spirit :( So my question is: do you have to be a lucky person to play dredge succesfuly or what?

This probably isn't too helpful, but I find this deck is particularly susceptible to clumping, especially the cards removed from the game. Ichorids are usually clumped because of recurring them as are PImps from feeding Ichorids, Cabal Therapies are clumped from flashing back, and often even Narcomoebas are clumped. Maybe that is one cause of some of what you are saying. You have to shuffle a lot to randomize it again and even then, I still get clumps. :frown:

[addaro]

I always make sure that cards are randomized! BTW thanks for help, watching replays on MTGO :)

[TheSleeper]

How do I SB against Aggro Loam, particularly the ones packing Leyline? Unless we're packing multiple Wispmare it seems pretty bad for us. Leyline + Chalice @ 1 shuts off most other answers. Or should this simply go down as a bad matchup and focus elsewhere? I was thinking of 2 Wispmare in SB anyways, so would probably go something like: +2 Wisp, +4 CoV (hopefully no chalice @ 1), -3 Careful, -1 BT, -2 DR targets.

Edit: Ray of Revelation also gets there but Wispmare does it for a single mana. Any Loam related SB advice appreciated.

[Ozymandias]

I board out 1 Ichorid, 1 Woodfall Primus, 1 Dread Return, 1 Cabal Therapy (No good targets) 3 Careful Study for +4 Chain of Vapor +3 Nature's Claim. If they do have the nut Leyline, Land, land mox chalice hand, then yeah, it's probably g3 time, but otherwise you have at least one turn to get rid of Leyline. BT gets the nod over study because it can get cast around chalice 1.

[BKclassic]

At risk of saying something dumb and suggested before I present the following.

Everyone has pretty much settled on the following:

15 Lands
11 Dredgers
8 Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe
7 Breakthrough/Careful Study
3 Dread Return
1 Dread Return Target
8 Bridge and Narcomeoba
3 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy

The usual variations are -1 Land, Dread Return, Dread Return Target, Cabal Therapy or Tireless Tribe; +1 Ichorid, Dread Return Target, or Dredger

Premises-
1-In a perfect world, we would all run 12 Dredgers, 4 Ichorid and 4 Cabal Therapy.
2-Typically, one of these cards must be cut in order to keep all 4 Tireless Tribe and and another to have 7 Breakthrough/Careful Study. Usually a dredger and an Ichorid.
3- A list with 12 dredgers is better than one with 11 dredgers. But what to cut for it

Conclusion-
If you are playing 60 cards and 11 Dredgers, you should run 61 cards and 12 Dredgers.

So, is my logic faulty? Clearly Premise 3 is the questionable one. 11/60 is a ratio of .18333 of dredgers to cards and 12/61 is a ratio of .19672 dredgers to cards. Running 61 cards as opposed to 60 cards changes the chance of any one card being a certain card from 1.667% to 1.639%, only 3/100 of a percent.

Assuming my math is correct, that 1.3% increase in the number of dredgers seems well worth the slight reduction in chance of drawing other cards since dredgers are obviously the key to being able to win.

[drawer]

How do I SB against Aggro Loam, particularly the ones packing Leyline? Unless we're packing multiple Wispmare it seems pretty bad for us. Leyline + Chalice @ 1 shuts off most other answers. Or should this simply go down as a bad matchup and focus elsewhere? I was thinking of 2 Wispmare in SB anyways, so would probably go something like: +2 Wisp, +4 CoV (hopefully no chalice @ 1), -3 Careful, -1 BT, -2 DR targets.

Edit: Ray of Revelation also gets there but Wispmare does it for a single mana. Any Loam related SB advice appreciated.

I've been playing 3 Echoing Truth and 2 Chain of Vapor in my SB for a long time, the Echoing Truths are good against multiple Leylines, Chalice + Leyline, and Empty the Warrens tokens in addition to everything Chain is good against. I also play 16 lands.

I haven't lost a match to Aggro Loam with Leylines since I started playing. I've only played it a few times but my area has some of the most experienced Aggro Loam players around.

[ktkenshinx]

I've been playing 3 Echoing Truth and 2 Chain of Vapor in my SB for a long time, the Echoing Truths are good against multiple Leylines, Chalice + Leyline, and Empty the Warrens tokens in addition to everything Chain is good against. I also play 16 lands.

I haven't lost a match to Aggro Loam with Leylines since I started playing. I've only played it a few times but my area has some of the most experienced Aggro Loam players around.
Ray of Revalation is most readily compared to Ancient Grudge. Similarly, this might suggest that Wispmare is most readily compared to Ingot Chewer. Which of the pairs are optimal?

In my testing, and I believe the testing of others, Grudge is the optimal choice to Chewer. Chalice at 1 is a pretty easy drop for decks like Stax, but Chalice at 2 is a bit more of a leap. Grudge provides both a solution to Chalice and to hatred like Crypt and Relic. It comes back for more, it gives you card advantage, and it synergizes well with Dredge.

So what about Ray? While it looks like it does the same thing as Grudge, this is not entirely true. Decks that run one artifact-hate card tend to run multiples. Because of this, Grudge's redundancy comes into play all the time. But Ray's redundancy is not as powerful. Do you really need to kill 2 Moats? Enchantress and its ungodly amount of threats is an exception to this, but bounce handles that well enough. Because of this overlap between bounce and enchantment destruction, both are not needed.

-ktkenshinx-

[Anusien]

Conclusion-
If you are playing 60 cards and 11 Dredgers, you should run 61 cards and 12 Dredgers.

So, is my logic faulty? Clearly Premise 3 is the questionable one. 11/60 is a ratio of .18333 of dredgers to cards and 12/61 is a ratio of .19672 dredgers to cards. Running 61 cards as opposed to 60 cards changes the chance of any one card being a certain card from 1.667% to 1.639%, only 3/100 of a percent.

Assuming my math is correct, that 1.3% increase in the number of dredgers seems well worth the slight reduction in chance of drawing other cards since dredgers are obviously the key to being able to win.
I don't buy it. Before I'd come close to beliving it, I'd want to see the math on keepable hands. If we assume a minimum keepable hand requires Land, Dredger, outlet, we can mathematically solve to see what percentage of hands are keepable for a given number of lands, dredgers, and outlets. So if you want to make your case, do the math.

[4eak]

Ray of Revelation and Grudge really can't be compared very effectively. Grudge is insane because you can dredge into it or discard it in order to use it against artifact GY hate, while some of the very important enchantment GY hate we'd want to hit with Ray prevent the discarding or dredging into it in the first place (Wheel of Sun and Moon, Leyline).




peace,
4eak

[paK0]

I don't buy it. Before I'd come close to beliving it, I'd want to see the math on keepable hands. If we assume a minimum keepable hand requires Land, Dredger, outlet, we can mathematically solve to see what percentage of hands are keepable for a given number of lands, dredgers, and outlets. So if you want to make your case, do the math.


I think it might actually be possible that this increases the number of keepable hands, since you can usually keep your opening 7 as long as there is a dredger if you face any blue decks.

DDD is the best plan there since I dont' play an outlet if I only have one, loosing to a random FoW is just bad. But I agree, some actual math will be more correct than my imagination.

[TheSleeper]

Because of this overlap between bounce and enchantment destruction, both are not needed.

So you're saying 4 bounce (CoV) is enough for enchantments? Hmm, I'll keep testing.

[pippo84]

Has everyone dropped Bloodghast? It's a while I don't play dredge and read the thread, but I was thinking to do it again..

[ktkenshinx]

So you're saying 4 bounce (CoV) is enough for enchantments? Hmm, I'll keep testing.

In my testing, 4 Chain is normally enough, although adding in a Wispmare or 2 (or a 3 Chain/2 Wispmare split) (or even a 3 Chain/2 Truth split) is also viable. It really depends what enchantments are causing problem. Wheel and Leyline cannot be dealt with using Ray as effectively as with Chain and Truth. But Grass/Prison/Moat/Propaganda are all better handled by Ray, especially against decks that run redundant enchantment threats.

-ktkenshinx-

[drawer]

But Grass/Prison/Moat/Propaganda are all better handled by Ray, especially against decks that run redundant enchantment threats.



Don't most people play Terastodon for the Grass/Prison/Moat problem?

[Zappa]

Just wondering what's other's opinion on this, specially when it concerns enchantment based hate...

How far are you willing to Mulligan? There's some hands I've tossed away, where I am wondering whether or not its the correct call. Like some opening hands with a land, dredger, discard outlet/draw enabler... but no answers. Do you mulligan until you've drawn into your answer? Do you keep a 5 or 4 card hand just to draw that Chain of Vapor? What if there's no land to cast that said of chain of vapor? Mull or draw? I understand that artifact based hate I can just try to dredge to an ancient grudge, however Leyline does not give us that option.

I usually board out breakthrough most of the time, as I can also dig in or answers with careful study and allowing us to keep our hand intact. But the problem is when you've drawn into either the nuts hand (but no answers), or drawn a decent hand (but no answers), or drawn your answers to a hate piece but went down to like 5 cards doing so (but no land). This is usually the issue I am having, specially when I know the opponent is packing Leyline. Artifacts for me is fine, enchantments however is a different story.

Thanks.

[NQN]

Even when I assume that my opp has Leyline/Wheel, I´d never ship back a hand like the first one you mentioned. Fact is, if they don´t have Leyline, you win. If they have it, you win if you draw your answer. But nothing is worse than loosing because you mulled to 5 to find Chain and he just goes GoyfGoyfGoyf. Most people think they can win with decent hands even if theres no/few hate in it and will keep hands even without leylines f.e.

[(nameless one)]

I looked over at the Reanimator thread and they have been discussing how Enchantment hate is far more devastating than Artifact hate. I believe this is true on our side too because:

We can still Dredge with an active Artifact hate because of Ancient Grudge. The same cannot be said against Enchantments. A resolve Leyline, Wheel of SaM, Planar Void won't allow you to Dredge at all.

Although, that is not my main point. My main point is Outside Faerie Macabre, are Creature hate that relevant?

The reason I ask is because of my dilemma with Chain of Vapour vs. Nature's Claim. Yes, Chain of Vapour can 'permanently' deal with Leyline but have you ever been a position that you Chain a Wheel of SaM only to see it again next turn because you don't have a Cabal Therapy on hand? Yes Chain of Vapor deals with creatures but it is also a temporarily.

I have been contemplating whether Chain of Vapor is actually good on the side. I think Nature's Claim is the better choice but I could be wrong. I know Frogboy's list from the SCG article ran 4 Chains and 1 Claim. But would it be better if there was more Claim, less Chains and possibly more creature hate.

I was thinking of actually using Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile on the side.

Any opinions with that? Does it depend on the list? Is it a metacall?

[BKclassic]

The reason I ask is because of my dilemma with Chain of Vapour vs. Nature's Claim. Yes, Chain of Vapour can 'permanently' deal with Leyline but have you ever been a position that you Chain a Wheel of SaM only to see it again next turn because you don't have a Cabal Therapy on hand? Yes Chain of Vapor deals with creatures but it is also a temporarily.

I have been contemplating whether Chain of Vapor is actually good on the side. I think Nature's Claim is the better choice but I could be wrong. I know Frogboy's list from the SCG article ran 4 Chains and 1 Claim. But would it be better if there was more Claim, less Chains and possibly more creature hate.



I have been contemplating this mystery as well. I want to run Nature's Claim, but running 7-8 Grudge and Claim seems like a really narrow sideboard. So I came up with this, (MD the same as Frogboy's, -1 Darkblast, +1 Angel of Despair, possibly another Thug as the 61st card):

3 Unmask/Leyline of the Void/Firestorm
3 Wispmare
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Terestodon
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ancestor's Chosen

Wispmare is way better than Ray of Revelation since it can be easily played from your hand as well as recurred through Dread Return. It keeps the versatility of Chain of Vapor for matchups when you just aren't sure what hate they may be packing (namely BGx decks). I think this sideboard gives you a lot of versatility but also good answers.

[Digital Devil]

I personally like to have 4x Claim and 3x Grudge in my 15. If I know my opponent plays Relic/Crypt, I'm only siding in 3x Grudge. We're seeing more cards than our opponent does because we dredge, so 3x Grudge > 4x hypotethical Crypts/Relics/a mixture of both. And I dislike both Terastodon and Wispmare against enchantment hate. Wispmare is sorcery speed, while Terastodon has to be DRed. Of course Wispmare can be DRed, too, but as already mentioned, Leyline/Wheel/Void prevent us to DR anything. So we need to choose between Chain/Claim. People tend to choose Chain because:

1) Its cost can be payed with any random land in the deck.
2) It deals with creatures, too.

While I do admit the first is a huge plus, what kind of creatures are annoying for us? Jailer and Archon? No one plays Jailer, and Archon sees play only in Reanimator. Is the temporarity of Chain worth the slot simply because it can deal with creatures? Claim is permanent, and if we want to talk about corner cases, it doesn't fall prey to REB. Aww, my opponent just sneaked a Blazing Archon into play, I wish this NC were a Chain... G3 we draw a hand which screams DOCTOR OCTAGONAPUS BLAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH and still kick their ass. We don't need to win every single game, even a 2-1 score is acceptable. We almost always start 1-0 against every deck. I'd rather lose to some random 5/6 than play Chain over Claim just because of it.

[(nameless one)]

So Digital Devil,

Does this sideboard look acceptable:



4x Coffin Purge
4x Nature's Claim
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Flame-kin Zealot
1x Terrastodon
1x -open slot-


The reason why I am using Coffin Purges is because I currently do not have any Leylines (well, not yet). I am thinking if I am going to face Reanimator or mirror, might as well be ready (although Leyline would be better, right?)

I dont really know what I should put on my open slot. I was thinking of Darkblast (I am not running any Darkblasts on main). Maybe a single copy of Chain of Vapor for lucksacking purposes?

[Jaynel]

@Digital Devil: Unfortunately, your game 1 against Reanimator isn't as good as it is against other decks, because you are completely kold to Archon preboard and they have disruption with counters. I think Chain is much, much better than Claim. They answer the same things, but Chain can be cast off of any land. This is really relevant, especially when it comes to mulligan decisions.

[Rune]

I would never play Dredge in Legacy without Angel of Despair in my mainboard. It makes the g1 against Reanimator really easy, it answers any troublesome permanent, it feeds Ichorid and it pitches to Unmask. It's just awesome!

[Digital Devil]

So Digital Devil
Claim, Grudge and Chosen are all "ok" cards. About Coffin Purge: same exact thing as Ancient Grudge. You're dredging, thus seeing more cards per turn than your opponent does, so I would play only 3. If you aren't playing Leyline because you still don't have 'em, what about Faerie Macabre? It can be awesome both in the mirror and against Reanimator. Now, your open slot. Let's assume for a moment that 4x Coffin Purge is excessive. Let's pretend you only play 3. You now have 2 free slots, which could be Darkblasts. Or, if you cut Zealot, you now have three free slots, so you could play 3x Darkblast, 3x Lightning Axe or 3x Firestorm. I don't get the usefulness of FKZ, not even in the sb. Ancestor's Chosen can still be a pain for ANT if DRed early, and the random opportunity to win against Lands! isn't IMHO worth the slot.


@Digital Devil
No one plays Reanimator here, but free grave-hate is kinda popular due to the existance of blue spells that let you see 3 extra cards. If I bounce a Crypt, they're playing it the next turn. The fact that Chain can be cast off any land is relevant, although having Claim hasn't ever been an issue.


I would never play Dredge in Legacy without Angel of Despair in my mainboard.
I tried to play it in my mainboard for a while, but I almost always sided it out g2. I only want it against Lands, Enchantress, Stax and Reanimator. If those decks are really popular in your area then I understand your choice, but to me, the perfect place is in the sb.

---------------------
P.S. - After a good amount of testing, I came to the conclusion that 4x Careful Study + 3x Breakthrough is a generally better configuration than 4x Breakthrough + 3x Careful Study.

[Pltnmngl]

---------------------
P.S. - After a good amount of testing, I came to the conclusion that 4x Careful Study + 3x Breakthrough is a generally better configuration than 4x Breakthrough + 3x Careful Study.

Care to elaborate? I'm assuming it's because you side out breakthrough a lot.

[Digital Devil]

Care to elaborate? I'm assuming it's because you side out breakthrough a lot.
I think it is an error to entirely side out Breakthroughs. The fact is, I used to play 4, but lately I've been siding out 1 copy every time I played g2. You play 4 copies of a certain card whenever you always want it to be in your opening hand, and if you have additional copies, it isn't a problem. Breakthrough feels to me like Dread Return: a spell which needs to resolve. The fact is, I'm casting it only if I'm sure it can have a huge impact on the game state, so, additional copies are useless. Instead, multiple Studies are always welcome. I hate to throw away nearly perfect hands just because I have a land and Breakthrough as my only discard outlet. CS still makes you recover from Crypt/Relic, without the risk of getting owned by a second piece of hate. It also makes us dig for our anti-hate cards. Still haven't much time to elaborate, but this should be better than my previous post.

[bum_man]

I semi-retired from playing cards for a few month and I'm now thinking of playing again. I'm re-tuning my deck and I just have a few questions.

@Digital Devil: About Enchantment hate, graveyard hate have been very dynamic where I play. A combination of both artifacts and enchantments are used, especially Wheel of Sun and Moon. I'm just wondering if wispmare is a better card than claim in terms of knocking out enchantments because 1) it can't be chaliced 2) it is very difficult of hit with counterbalance 3) it can't be spell snared and 4) can be d'returned as opposed to nature's claim which is relatively easy for the opposing decks that pack enchantment hate to stop i.e. CT-goyf, Canadian Thresh, Rock, Aggro Loam. I'm just asking which is better since I play Chains and Claims/wispmare in my board.

Another question, woodfall primus vs terastodon vs angel of despair. I'm thinking about which is generally the best. Woodfall Primus can be used twice and has trample. Angel of Despair flies and kills creatures too. Terastodon knocks-off up to 3 permanents but the problem i see in terastodon is it gives the opponent a 3 turn clock to use against us. He's 9/9 and all but it'd be easy enough for the opponent to stp, or bounce, or path or oblivion ring him away.

About the breakthrough and careful study ratio, I too play 3 breakthroughs to 4 studies. It's more consistent this way. I've been thinking about changing this so that I'd have better odds of having breakthrough in my hand. Post-board, i usually go to 2 breakthrough and 3 studies or 4 breakthroughs in some match-ups. I'm just thinking what would be better generally, having 4 breakthroughs or studies. I chose studies since they have less impact in the game when countered compared to breakthrough. what do you think?

Thanks for the input people.:cool:

[Digital Devil]

@Digital Devil: About Enchantment hate, graveyard hate have been very dynamic where I play. A combination of both artifacts and enchantments are used, especially Wheel of Sun and Moon. I'm just wondering if wispmare is a better card than claim in terms of knocking out enchantments because 1) it can't be chaliced 2) it is very difficult of hit with counterbalance 3) it can't be spell snared and 4) can be d'returned as opposed to nature's claim which is relatively easy for the opposing decks that pack enchantment hate to stop i.e. CT-goyf, Canadian Thresh, Rock, Aggro Loam. I'm just asking which is better since I play Chains and Claims/wispmare in my board.
The only decks that could pack both enchantment and artifact hate are Enchantress, Aggro Loam and Stax. Enchantress doesn't need to pack Crypts when it has access to 6+ Wheel of Sun and Moon. Aggro Loam either packs Crypts or Leylines. In a blind scenario like this, Claim is obviously better than Wispmare. You don't know what they're siding in, so you'll bring all-purpose cards like Claim/Chain. That deck has many troublesome cards to deal with, but the last thing I want to see on the table is 3Sphere. Against Stax I usually bring in a combination of Chains/Grudges + Angel of Despair, hoping they won't cast that three-mana artifact. Anything else seems less dangerous when you have 7-8 cards to help you. It still remains a terrible matchup, even postboard, but I think it's not unwinnable as long as you board in the right cards. Wispmare is IMHO too narrow to deserve slots in the sb.


Another question, woodfall primus vs terastodon vs angel of despair. I'm thinking about which is generally the best. Woodfall Primus can be used twice and has trample. Angel of Despair flies and kills creatures too. Terastodon knocks-off up to 3 permanents but the problem i see in terastodon is it gives the opponent a 3 turn clock to use against us. He's 9/9 and all but it'd be easy enough for the opponent to stp, or bounce, or path or oblivion ring him away.
Terastodon deals with multiple permanents at once, but doesn't have evasion, and can be blocked by its own-made tokens. Primus, instead, deals with a single permanent, unless you have another Cabal Therapy in your graveyard and/or enough creatures to cast DR. Let's say it deals with 2 permanents. It has Persist and Trample. It seems better than Terastodon, even if it hasn't high stats. The fact is that I personally never had to struggle against multiple permanent pieces of hate at once, so, instead of playing a 6/6 with Trample, I'd rather play a 5/5 with Flying that also deals with creatures and can be Ichorid food on occasion. I want my deck to be as resilient as possible, and Angel helps me accomplishing this goal. Primus and Terastodon already do what Chain/Claim are supposed to do. Angel does something unique. I'm not saying it's the best among the three creatures, I'm only saying why I consider it to be so.


I chose studies since they have less impact in the game when countered compared to breakthrough. what do you think?
Another thing I forgot to say before.

[bum_man]

The only decks that could pack both enchantment and artifact hate are Enchantress, Aggro Loam and Stax. Enchantress doesn't need to pack Crypts when it has access to 6+ Wheel of Sun and Moon. Aggro Loam either packs Crypts or Leylines. In a blind scenario like this, Claim is obviously better than Wispmare. You don't know what they're siding in, so you'll bring all-purpose cards like Claim/Chain. That deck has many troublesome cards to deal with, but the last thing I want to see on the table is 3Sphere. Against Stax I usually bring in a combination of Chains/Grudges + Angel of Despair, hoping they won't cast that three-mana artifact. Anything else seems less dangerous when you have 7-8 cards to help you. It still remains a terrible matchup, even postboard, but I think it's not unwinnable as long as you board in the right cards. Wispmare is IMHO too narrow to deserve slots in the sb.
Recently there were CB Thresh, Canadrain Thresh and Bants packing a combination of wheel of sun and moon and crypts here where I play, they also have firespouts too. Claim gets the nod here, I guess. Aggro Loam has chalice on 1 that could possibly knock-out claim, but having leylines and a chalice on 1 in the opening hand would be too much for the deck anyway.



Terastodon deals with multiple permanents at once, but doesn't have evasion, and can be blocked by its own-made tokens. Primus, instead, deals with a single permanent, unless you have another Cabal Therapy in your graveyard end/or enough creatures to cast DR. Let's say it deals with 2 permanents. It has Persist and Trample. It seems better than Terastodon, even if it hasn't high stats. The fact is that I personally never had to struggle against multiple permanent pieces of hate at once, so, instead of playing a 6/6 with Trample, I'd rather play a 5/5 with Flying that also deals with creatures and can be Ichorid food on occasion. I want my deck to be as resilient as possible, and Angel helps me accomplishing this goal. Primus and Terastodon already do what Chain/Claim are supposed to do. Angel does something unique. I'm not saying it's the best among the three creatures, I'm only saying why I consider it to be so.
Thanks for the input. I'll be looking to test both angel and primus to see works better here where I play.

[popiezhius]

I chose studies since they have less impact in the game when countered compared to breakthrough. what do you think?
What is the difference between countered study and countered breakthrough? Or do I miss something?

[Digital Devil]

What is the difference between countered study and countered breakthrough? Or do I miss something?
He probably meant since you're casting Breakthrough when you're trying to go off, (while Study can both be used to go off and/or find the pieces of the combo to go off the next turn), knowing this can and will make your opponent pay much more attention to your plays, or play much more aggressively. It still ask myself why would someone play a blind Breakthrough against a blue based deck, but that's another question.

[drawer]

It still ask myself why would someone play a blind Breakthrough against a blue based deck, but that's another question.

A 2-for-1 is still a 2-for-1. Assuming you're playing around Daze at least. If you have two Breakthroughs in hand I would argue that the first Breakthrough is better than Cabal Therapy unless they have double Force double blue card, in which case they're countering the Therapy anyways. Sometimes getting your spells countered is just something that has to happen. If you use Breakthrough as a bait spell it's usually a win/win situation against blue decks, if it resolves you get to dump your hand, if it's countered you're more likely to resolve your permanent discard outlet or second Breakthrough. If you spend a turn on the DDD plan it gets even better.

[Nidd]

I present you: My current list.

My list:
// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
3 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
3 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba

// Spells
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 1 [TSP] Dread Return
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim


I've been liking the 12 Dredgers so far. Only having 7 permanent discard outlets didn't hurt me the slightest since I also have 2 Studies to get it rolling and if everything goes bad, I can still therapy myself, however, this definitely isn't the play I like to make.
I think the MB is fine...
...However, I just dunno about the SB. I don't know ewhether this board is capable of handling the most common hate thrown in my direction.
When I stopped playing Dredge, Relics and Crypts were the hate of choice, has this changed?

[Wargoos]

When I stopped playing Dredge, Relics and Crypts were the hate of choice, has this changed?

No. However you see some Leylines and traps here and there.

Your sideboard lacks terastodon, you just have to play it nowadays because it saves you from random jank.
Iona is a very discussable choice, a lot of people think she is kinda win-more.(read the last pages in this thread)
In the current meta you should play Chain of Vapor in place of Nature's claim since you can cast chain with every land you play
and it presents another out for reanimator.
The needles are not needed since you already play the grudges and you should dedicate those slots for some gy-hate against the mirror and reanimator.

[Nidd]

It's highly unlikely that I'll play the mirror where I'll play this deck, so I didn't include a plan for it. Anyways, what is the normal plan for the mirror? Leylines?

My updated SB would look like this:
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WWK] Terastodon
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 1 [TSP] Dread Return
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [ONS] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm

[sunshine]

I run Firestorms, so they come in. I'll often bring in some number of Wispmare's if they happen to be in my board as well.

Some do run Leylines, Traps, Crypts or any of a number of other GY hate pieces. Generally speaking the mirror is not something people lose a whole lot of sleep over though. If you have something relevant to bring in that's great, if not it isn't the end of the world. The mirror generally revolves around seeing who can stick an Iona first or make the most Zombies in a single turn, as that's about how long you can assume your Bridges will stick around.

As with all SB advice this makes some assumptions about the meta you'll be playing in. If the Dredge is enough of a presence that you're worried about SBing for the mirror I'd advise thinking about running a different deck (as you can be sure everyone else in the field will packing hate too).

[bum_man]

What is the difference between countered study and countered breakthrough? Or do I miss something?
Breakthrough is this deck's "big money" spell. People as much as possible want to make the breakthrough as lucrative as possible because the resolution of this spell usually could possibly mean a win. This is why when people cast it, it usually means it is time to make a move for a win. If it gets countered chances are the opponent got himself in a good position to win. As compared to a careful study which is primarily a set-up spell, if you use it to dredge and it gets countered its only a minor tempo loss as compared to a breakthrough. This deck can't afford having their breakthroughs countered because its probably the deck's only speed buff.


A 2-for-1 is still a 2-for-1. Assuming you're playing around Daze at least. If you have two Breakthroughs in hand I would argue that the first Breakthrough is better than Cabal Therapy unless they have double Force double blue card, in which case they're countering the Therapy anyways. Sometimes getting your spells countered is just something that has to happen. If you use Breakthrough as a bait spell it's usually a win/win situation against blue decks, if it resolves you get to dump your hand, if it's countered you're more likely to resolve your permanent discard outlet or second Breakthrough. If you spend a turn on the DDD plan it gets even better.
Wouldn't cabal therapy be better since if you bait breakthrough 1 and it gets forced, you wouldn't think the opponent has any more forces or counters at that so you'd therapy for something else in which case they could let it resolve, time-walking you a turn wherein they could possibly draw an out. a 2 for 1 is indeed good for the deck probably not just for a breakthrough, maybe its just me but when I cast breakthrough I aim for it to resolve since chances are, I already have good board position i.e discard outlet.

@Nidd: You already have Angel of Despair so I think it would be redundant playing Terastodon, unless you have a dedicated target for Reanimator and prison decks. And is having a return and an FKZ in the board worth running? FKZ usually only is viable game 1. Leylines and Wheel of Sun and Moon are prevalent where I play so I have both Chains and Claims in my board.

[Digital Devil]

Hey guys, what do you think about sb Faerie Macabre instead of Leyline of the Void? Don't we want Leyline against the mirror and against Reanimator? FM serves the same purpose, while being free, instant, and unpredictable. Enlighten me.

[Dredgehammer]

Faerie Macabre works against Reanimator and works okay against Lands and Loam decks. I play Macabre because it suits my budget better, and I don't see a lot of dredge where I play (I've never played a mirror). Thing is, Reanimator has target discard so they'll see it coming - you have to have a quick clock forcing them to interact.

[Digital Devil]

I have to agree that maindeck Dread Return targets aren't necessary, since g1 we steamroll almost the entire field. Yesterday I went to a local shop to play some magic, and I had the chance to playtest against Survival with Iona/Retainers, NOBant, Excalibur, UWR Landstill and UW Merfolk. Most times I found myself with my entire graveyard deployed face up on the table, without the need to DR anything: Ichorids + Bridge from Below outrace nearly everything. The few times I had to DR something were g2 against Survival (DRing Angel of Despair to kill Windborn Muse, sacrificing it to Therapy to generate 3 tokens, and then reanimating it again to nuke Silent Arbiter) and against NOBant because I needed to race a Progenitus, but even then, if I DRed Iona I would have lost. Instead, that 13/13 GGT I reanimated seemed to be able to win in a blink. Enough talk, my latest list:


// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TSP] Dread Return

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

----------------------------------------------

I think the list looks pretty solid, but just posting it isn't enough. Now, I have to justify my choices. I decided to run both 4x Breakthrough and 4x Careful Study. I want to maximize the chance to draw both. They are both discard outlets and draw spells, which is vital to keep the engine going. If the engine starts, Iona, FKZ, Inkwell Leviathan, are all unneeded, hence my will to not play maindeck DR targets besides Golgari Grave-Troll. A few words about the sideboard:

1. I still like Nature's Claim over Chain of Vapor because Wheel of Sun and Moon is so annoying, and the 4 life gain is irrelevant when your deck is capable to deploy 2nd turn 9/9s or to attack with 13x 2/2 tokens.

2. Faerie Macabre is the new entry: I do have Leylines, but I dislike 'em because I don't want to mull into a card just to lose by myself because I have too few resources to play. Faeries have the advantage to be instant and free, they're black, they help you reach Threshold for the activation of Coliseum and don't clash with the DDD plan. GGT also likes Faerie Macabre.

3. 4x Ancient Grudge - because I want to see them as soon as possible. Multiple copies mean additional protection/chance to blow my opponent's Relic, which is better, don't you agree?

4. Ancestor's Chosen is there against ANT/Zoo/Burn or in case I need to race something huge (Dreadnought/Progenitus, the latter more often than the former - Phyrexian Lobster still falls under Grudge), while Angel of Despair is there for Reanimator/Stax/Survival/Enchantress. Max McCall plays FKZ in his sideboard, "Just in case I need to race combo, or to win the mirror", but I find Iona to be the best DR target ever released, and I can't conceive this deck without the legendary angel in its 75. Not only it completely crushes mono-colored strategies, it doesn't depend on Bridges, too (unlike Zealot). I don't feel like I need her in the maindeck anymore, but there are certain situations in which only Iona can save my day.

[paK0]

I played this today at monthly Iserlohn, posting a 3-3 finish. The deck felt not too bad, but I dredged more shit than in the last 3 tournaments together.

I lost a game to Faeries where I had to dredge a Troll 3 times before finding the first piece of action.
Against white Stax I lost because Angel decided that it would be a good idea to be the card second from bottom, I was short 1 round to kill him.


The last game I lost was against sime Slight build I'm not entirely sure but I might have given this one away with some mistakes.

So overall I felt a little unfortunate, but the deck was fun to play and it is nice to not always be the last one to finish the round =).

List was:
// Lands
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
3 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [TO] Ichorid
1 [GP] Angel of Despair

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TSP] Dread Return

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot


The changes I consider:
Angel -> Ichorid
Nature's Claim -> Wispmare

The Angel was against Reanimator, but it made only a few showings at the bottom tables, so the hype might be over. Second, I realized that a lot of the decks that board leyline also have Chalice, since 90% of the time Claim is used it takes out a Leyline, so Wispmare might be the better option.

[sunshine]

After a little hiatus from actually playing this deck I decided to dust off my dredgers and travel to NY for the GPT. I went X-0-2 into the top 8 (IDing last two rounds) and lost in the top 4 after a close 3 game match to AnT. Here was my SB for the event:

4 Root Maze
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Eternal Witness

Generally I don't run CoV in the board, here it was a concession to the fact that I have essentially no other outs a Blazing Archon and I typically run into a bit of Reanimator from the New York crowd (though as far as I could see there was only one or two players in the room yesterday running it).

Root Maze is just amazing against combo. If you feel like combo is at all a presence in your meta but still want to run dredge the card deserves some consideration.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Just to throw my thoughts about the Faerie Macabre inside...

It may be good against reanimator, but it isn't any better then Leyline IMO ... you need Faerie in your starting hand as much as you need Leyline, because you wont draw that many cards >.>

what about Coffin Purge instead??? -> You can play it from your opening hand, and you can also Dredge into it, like Ancient Grudge =P


YawG

[Rune]

After a little hiatus from actually playing this deck I decided to dust off my dredgers and travel to NY for the GPT. I went X-0-2 into the top 8 (IDing last two rounds) and lost in the top 4 after a close 3 game match to AnT. Here was my SB for the event:

4 Root Maze
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Eternal Witness

Generally I don't run CoV in the board, here it was a concession to the fact that I have essentially no other outs a Blazing Archon and I typically run into a bit of Reanimator from the New York crowd (though as far as I could see there was only one or two players in the room yesterday running it).

Root Maze is just amazing against combo. If you feel like combo is at all a presence in your meta but still want to run dredge the card deserves some consideration.

Root Maze seems weaker than CotV against ANT. It doesn't stop LED and there is a huge difference between costing 0 and 1 mana in that matchup. What other decks do you use it against?

[sunshine]

There is only a marginal difference between zero and one mana for a card filling this role. Both can only be played on your first turn - and realistically hands without a land should probably be shipped back here.

Root Maze essentially says the AnT player cannot rely on initial mana sources drawn via Ad Nauseam - including lands. A first turn Maze will typically slow them down by three or more turns which should be enough time for your Therapies to make their life difficult. Under both Chalice and Maze all zero cc artifacts are effectively turned into +1 storm spells until the permanent is answered - except Maze also makes their lands enter the battlefield tapped and turns their fetches into glaciers. Maze doesn't stop LED but I feel that the fact that Maze makes generating mana post Ad Nauseam so much more difficult more than makes up for it. Remember that bouncing a Maze post Ad Nauseam requires a blue source to already be on the table and untapped.

As far as other MUs go it's worth pointing out Crypt's activation requires tapping, giving you a window to Grudge away the card before the nukes your yard. Also, dropping Maze on turn one means relic can't be activated until turn three at the earliest generally speaking. I haven't extensively tested it in MUs other than combo so I can't say it should definitely be sided in elsewhere. However, the tempo advantage it creates especially against decks packing a large number of fetches is backbreaking - the card is far from symmetrical when we only really need the land we played turn one in order to function.

[Pltnmngl]

So I finally have the deck together and I'm having troubles with which hands to keep. For example:

Bridge from Below
Putrid Imp
Golgari Thug
Stinkweed Imp
Tarnished Citadel
Gemstone Mine
Cephalid Coliseum

That's a definite keep.

But hands can get weird. For example:

2 Golgari Grave-Troll
Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
Breakthrough
Cephalid Coliseum

DDD-able? I tried to play it through and got the breakthrough to go off turn 3 (on the draw).

I understand the ideal hand is Discard, Dredger, Land. But what is considered unkeepable besides a hand with no Dredger?

[Wargoos]

THe last hand is awesome.
You obviously go the DDD route.
When you are playing against U you should go DDD anyways so that's no biggie.
When you are playing against anything non-U you can go Coliseum into Breakthrough and proceed to win.

[jimirynk]

@ Sunshine
Nice to meet you at the gpt I was the bearded fellow very interested in your board.

I just want to say against combo root maze was amazing drawing 10 cards and none of the cards helping do to the fact that it all comes into play tapped.

He happened to have CoV and echoing truth so CotV wouldn't of helped anymore.

[sunshine]

@ Sunshine
Nice to meet you at the gpt I was the bearded fellow very interested in your board.

I just want to say against combo root maze was amazing drawing 10 cards and none of the cards helping do to the fact that it all comes into play tapped.

He happened to have CoV and echoing truth so CotV wouldn't of helped anymore.

Nice, didn't know that was you. I've seen you around at tourneys before but never knew your source handle. Always cool to put a face to a familiar Sourcer.

Yeah, Maze single handedly stalled him for a good four or five turns. Unfortunately, Undiscovered Paradise was the only land I could find in my opener + 4 draws (I started on the draw + 2 from Careful Study). As you can imagine Paradise + Maze != synergy. He was finally able to bounce Maze and go off the turn before I would untap and play Breakthrough, sad times.

[jimirynk]

@ sunshine
What does your lands look like?

I personally run
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

But with root maze I could image -1 undiscovered paradise +x tarnish citadel

[sunshine]

I was running:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel

Right now I'm testing swapping 1-2 of the Paradises for Citadels. Generally speaking I really dislike having to run Citadel in this deck. Especially in games two and three where your life total is the buffer you lean on while (re)filling your graveyard. Losing to a couple quick Goyfs + FoW because your own land bolted you is just horrible. I really love drawing Paradise in my opener - how many Paradises end up becoming Citadels is going to depend on whether or not boarding in Maze for other MUs turns out to be a solid plan and how much combo is expected in the field - NY typically has more combo show up than everywhere else I play (about 20% of the field last Saturday was storm combo).

Also, 60 foils in the main deck is a lot nicer than 58...

[GoldenCid]

Good call on Root maze. This inclusion clearly demonstrate that ANT is our worst match up??

[sunshine]

AnT/TES are pretty rough MUs but they're far from unwinnable. I've seen many Ichorid pilots lose to combo and chalk it up as a bad MU when really the problem was they didn't understand their role in the match. There are very few decks that force us to assume the control role but fast storm combo is certainly one of them.

The other thing that makes combo a tricky MU is it puts such a strong emphasis on use of Cabal Therapy which is far and away the most skill/knowledge intensive card in the deck. Knowing what to name when is largely what separates a good dredge pilot from someone who sits behind the deck well.

[GoldenCid]

Mystical tutor is gone! Is root maze still justified here??

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Mystical tutor is gone! Is root maze still justified here??

Doubt it.

[sunshine]

Mystical tutor is gone! Is root maze still justified here??

Most likely not. But then, who knows what any SBs should look like now? Many thanks to WotC for sending the Legacy community spinning right before what promises to be one of the largest tourneys of the year... again...

Given the recent developments, I'm definitely eyeing Realm Razer for one slot in my board at the GP, and Ancient Grudge isn't going anywhere - other than that though we'll have to see how things shake out between now and then. As sad as I am personally to see Mystical Tutor go it seems like Dredge can only profit from Combo and Reanimator taking such a hit. Good time to be a dredge player I guess - assuming the format doesn't get overrun by Enchantress...

[jimirynk]

I expect a huge showing of lands in Columbus.
It is one of our decks worst MU's..
I don't know if I have the ball's to sleeve up dredge for Ohio..
Lands 2 worst MU's just disappeared.

[Digital Devil]

So, with Reanimator being nerfed by the recent B&R announcement, is it worth to still play Leyline of the Void in the sideboard? What could possibly take its place?

EDIT: What about Nature's Claim vs. Chain of Vapor, now? Do you still fear Blazing Archon?

[Nidd]

I expect a huge showing of lands in Columbus.
It is one of our decks worst MU's..
I don't know if I have the ball's to sleeve up dredge for Ohio..
Lands 2 worst MU's just disappeared.
Is the MU that bad?
I can imagine Chasm being a beating against us, but doesn't Terastodon/Angel/Woodfall Primus solve that problem?
Also, this might be a good time to sleeve up Iona again, as the hate against her will significantly decrease and Iona on Green shuts down their recursion, allowing Terastodon to nuke the Mazes without a problem.

[sunshine]

Chasm and Tabernacle are both pretty sad times. I've toyed with the idea of Magus of the Moon as a DR target as well.

[Nidd]

Is the MU that bad?
I can imagine Chasm being a beating against us, but doesn't Terastodon/Angel/Woodfall Primus solve that problem?
Also, this might be a good time to sleeve up Iona again, as the hate against her will significantly decrease and Iona on Green shuts down their recursion, allowing Terastodon to nuke the Mazes without a problem.
^No one other than sunshine can comment on this?

I'm really starting to believe that the death of Reanimator is the chance for Dredge to sleeve up Iona again, if only for the SB. People won't think they'll see her again I think. At least not that fast.

[SHABOOGS]

Hello everyone,

I started building this deck last week and I have to say that I have been learning a lot from this thread on how to build and use a dredge deck. I would appreciate your feedback on my current deck list and if you would also be so kind enough to provide hints/tips on how to use this deck properly. There were still times when I lost even though I had more than half of my library in my graveyard. I'm still in the play testing stages so feel free to comment. Anyways, here's the current deck list that I'm trying out:

Main Deck:

Enchantments:
Bridge from Below - 4

Creatures:
Putrid Imp - 4
Golgari Grave Troll - 4
Stinkweed Imp - 4
Ichorid - 4
Tireless Tribe - 4
Golgari Thug - 4
Sphinx of Lost Truths - 1
Flame-Kin Zealot - 1

Spells:
Cabal Therapy - 4
Careful Study - 4
Dread Return - 3
Breakthrough - 3

Lands:
Gemstone Mine - 4
City of Brass - 4
Cephalid Coliseum - 4

Sideboard:
Chain of Vapor - 3
Ancient Grudge - 3
Nature's Claim - 3
Darkblast - 3
Angel of Despair - 1
Terastodon - 1
Ancestor's Chosen - 1

Since I just finished building this deck, the sideboard is subject to change after I test this at our local tourney scene. I do have a few concerns tho:

1. I'm planning on adding a couple of Tarnished Citadels on that list but I'm not sure what to cut. I was thinking of -1 Ichorid and -1 Tireless Tribe/Golgari Thug but I'm so enjoying the 8 discard outlets and 12 dredgers configuration.

2. I'd love to add Iona, Shield of Emeria (Meta call) and was thinking of cutting Sphinx of Lost Truths but I'm not sure if that's a good move since the Sphinx empties your library in an instant.

3. I'm also thinking of adding bloodghast and undiscovered paradise in the future but that would depend on the results of the tournament. XD

Pisawt!

[bum_man]

Is the MU that bad?
I can imagine Chasm being a beating against us, but doesn't Terastodon/Angel/Woodfall Primus solve that problem?
Also, this might be a good time to sleeve up Iona again, as the hate against her will significantly decrease and Iona on Green shuts down their recursion, allowing Terastodon to nuke the Mazes without a problem.
This is situation would be true if your deck maindeck's Terastodon, Primus, or Angel of Despair game 1 or manage to Iona before he becomes online . Post-board this is where it gets tricky since this is the time when they're dedicated hate like Wheel of Sun and Moon/ Leyline/Crypt comes out and stops the deck from Iona-ing at all. In any case, you would need permanent hate other than DR targets. Assuming that this deck doesn't kill as fast, Grudge and Terastodon along with the speed with which this deck goes off would be the x-factor.

[/QUOTE]I'm really starting to believe that the death of Reanimator is the chance for Dredge to sleeve up Iona again, if only for the SB. People won't think they'll see her again I think. At least not that fast.[/QUOTE]
I think so too. Assuming that the meta reverts back to the pre-reanimator meta. Dredge would do quite better since hate wouldn't be as dedicated to the graveyard. Problem is it might steer sideboards towards boarding against aggro decks, so maybe FKZ in game 1 to Iona in game 2/3 sounds just about right. Do I make sense?

@SHABOOGS: About DR targets? Sphinx into Iona is just as good as Sphinx into FKZ imho. About the citadels, way back when before I played bloodghasts I played 2 Paradises in place of 1 Tireless and 1 Ichorid. 3 of each seem to be sufficient enough. Oh and if you plan on playing Iona I feel your meta has alot of red and non-blue shiz, have you though of darkblast to kill off little creatures? I used to and do still play them over thugs just because its a great utility card.

[Digital Devil]

have you though of darkblast to kill off little creatures? I used to and do still play them over thugs just because its a great utility card.
That was the same thing I was thinking about. I currently have 3 Leyline of the Void in my sideboard. Now, Reanimator can Exhume huge creatures, but can't exhume itself due to the banning of Mystical Tutor. Seeing that the 3 Leylines were dedicated slots against Reanimator and Dredge, shouldn't I swap 'em for 3 Darkblasts? I see them coming in against the mirror, Goblin, and Survival, so they're not wasted slots, I guess.

[SHABOOGS]

@SHABOOGS: About DR targets? Sphinx into Iona is just as good as Sphinx into FKZ imho. About the citadels, way back when before I played bloodghasts I played 2 Paradises in place of 1 Tireless and 1 Ichorid. 3 of each seem to be sufficient enough. Oh and if you plan on playing Iona I feel your meta has alot of red and non-blue shiz, have you though of darkblast to kill off little creatures? I used to and do still play them over thugs just because its a great utility card.

So Sphinx + Iona and Sphinx + FKZ have the same impact, right? What about Iona + FKZ in the main deck? Or just go -1 Golgari Thug +1 Iona making it Sphinx, Iona, and FKZ? I just tried your suggestion with 3 Tireless Tribe and 3 Ichorid and it's looking good so far. ^__^ I was thinking of shutting those mono colored decks with Iona rather than Darkblast in the main deck because it reduces the chances of me blowing off my bridges in the process in certain scenarios. And I also make use of Golgari Thug as Ichorid food more often than as a dredger.

[sunshine]

I would strongly argue against ditching Thug for Darkblast - especially in builds with a higher land count. We'll see how popular Goblins becomes in the near future but in almost every other MU Thugs are going to be stronger - and even then Thug still pulls his weight if you can stick two mana sources through their Wastes and Ports. I could see dropping to two Thugs to make room for some number of Darkblast being justified, beyond that just seems bad (IMHO).

Thug is huge when you're dredging more cautiously games two and three. Dancing a Thug and Narcomoeba is a great way to incrementally build tokens while exposing as little of your GY as possible. A recurring blocker that leaves behind 2/2 tokens and puts Narcomoebas back on top of your library essentially trumps strategies that aim to win through the red zone.

I personally find myself dredging Thugs very often - even with Stinkweeds and Trolls in my graveyard. Similarly I find myself using Stinkweeds to feed Ichorids often even with Thugs in my graveyard.

[bum_man]

So Sphinx + Iona and Sphinx + FKZ have the same impact, right? What about Iona + FKZ in the main deck? Or just go -1 Golgari Thug +1 Iona making it Sphinx, Iona, and FKZ?
I think I wasn't able to say what I had in mind in my last post. @_@ What I was trying to say was since FKZ and Iona are both "Finishers." DR targets intended on closing out the game then and there. It would be logical to pair either FKZ or Iona with Sphinx if you plan on playing only 2 DR targets, since Sphinx help dredge more of the library. It makes it easier for you to return your "finisher," either FKZ or Iona. This logic applies most especially with FKZ, without Sphinx I don't believe FKZ is worth running at all because without the dredging power given by Sphinx it's harder dredge into something lethal during the turn you dredge into FKZ. I used to run just 11 dredgers, 3 of those were darkblasts. 3 targets, Cephalid Sage, FKZ, and Reveillark. This was pre-bloodghast. On a side note, it was the baseline that I used when tinkering with the deck.


I just tried your suggestion with 3 Tireless Tribe and 3 Ichorid and it's looking good so far. ^__^
3 Ichorids, 3 tribes, 14 lands, 3 breakthroughs, 4 studies, 3 targets and 3 returns was personally the most solid build I've played with since picking-up the deck 2 years ago. I recommend using it as a baseline when building the deck. Then tinker the configuration starting from there. ^^


I was thinking of shutting those mono colored decks with Iona rather than Darkblast in the main deck because it reduces the chances of me blowing off my bridges in the process in certain scenarios. And I also make use of Golgari Thug as Ichorid food more often than as a dredger.
Sunshine does make a great point. In connection with what he said, this is my logic behind darkblast. Game 1 and Game 2/3 at times I play this deck like a combo deck, get rid of hate then combo-off. I don't have any problems using darkblast since its reusable utility that I could use for one mana to knock-off lavamancers, confidants, jailers, lackeys, spellstutter sprites, cursecatchers to clear the way so I can combo-off quickly. That's just me but I really enjoy Darkblast's utility. When the game slows down Thug has an edge being a recurring blocker that creates tokens and returns creatures, with a chance of knocking off your bridges too at times. It has utility in its own right. The problem is you need a stable 2 land mana base. It's a hella great way to piss off goyf players though. Looking at it now, I probably call it a meta call or a preference call. A slow blue filled, goyf filled meta is great for thug, while a more aggresive meta, I believe darkblast has a slight edge, that's just me though.

[SHABOOGS]

Thanks for the feedback guys! Now it's just a call between Thugs and Darkblast. I was actually thinking of having both MD but I wasn't sure of what configuration to use. Since I'm going with bum_man's configuration of 3 Ichorids, 3 tribes, 14 lands, 3 breakthroughs, 4 studies, 3 targets and 3 returns, I was thinking of having a 2/1 split for Thugs and Darkblast. But I feel that 1 Darkblast isn't enough if I'm putting it MD. I wish I could at least get a 2/2 split for Thugs and Darkblast but that would mean that I would have to cut 1 DR taget and choose between Sphinx + Iona, Sphinx + FKZ, or Iona + FKZ. Unless there are other cards I can cut off my MD (Are there any?). Anyways, here's the current list that I'll be using for this week's tournaments:

Main Deck:

Enchantments:
Bridge from Below - 4

Creatures:
Putrid Imp - 4
Golgari Grave Troll - 4
Stinkweed Imp - 4
Golgari Thug - 3
Ichorid - 3
Tireless Tribe - 3
Iona, Shield of Emeria - 1
Sphinx of Lost Truths - 1
Flame-Kin Zealot - 1

Spells:
Cabal Therapy - 4
Careful Study - 4
Dread Return - 3
Breakthrough - 3

Lands:
Gemstone Mine - 4
City of Brass - 4
Cephalid Coliseum - 4
Tarnished Citadel - 2

Sideboard:
Chain of Vapor - 3
Ancient Grudge - 3
Nature's Claim - 3
Darkblast - 3
Angel of Despair - 1
Terastodon - 1
Ancestor's Chosen - 1

[sunshine]

The easiest cut for you right now - everything else aside - is one of the DR targets. Personally I'd drop FKZ. FKZ gives you some flashy finishes but a large percentage of the time those are games you're going to win anyway. Also, depending on your local meta, FKZ will likely be your most boarded out card which makes it seem rather superfluous when you consider that the game one win percentage for this deck is amazing even with as little as 0 dedicated DR targets.

[YigSnakeDaddy]

I agree with Sunshine there. FKZ can be an incredibly superflous card. It's not a problem-solver, it's just winmore.
Should you ever run into trouble, FKZ won't turn the game around whereas Iona, Angel of Despair or Terastodon might be able to do it.

[jimirynk]

Is the MU that bad?
I can imagine Chasm being a beating against us, but doesn't Terastodon/Angel/Woodfall Primus solve that problem?
Also, this might be a good time to sleeve up Iona again, as the hate against her will significantly decrease and Iona on Green shuts down their recursion, allowing Terastodon to nuke the Mazes without a problem.

MU's almost impossible,
chasm lock,
tabernacle,
can kill bridges with wasting factories and your therapy's are dead,
bog is a soild 1 of md,
e.e md,
wasteland is VERY STRONG against us,
1 tormonds crypt is common and/or 1 in the board seals the mu,
intuition for crypt/academy/loam,
intuition for tabernacle loam chasm,
crop rotation for any of the lands,
gamble for any target..
Soooo many plans of attack G1!
Are therapy's are dead for the most part,
and after board leyline is common..

I also believe lands to be the best deck after mystical getting banned.
I'm not trying to shoot down this deck, it's my favorite deck in 1.5, but if you plan on going x/0 x/1 x/2 at a gp with a deck that can lose games to it's own draw's, if day 1 is 11 rounds you have to win 9 rounds just to day 2.

[SHABOOGS]

The easiest cut for you right now - everything else aside - is one of the DR targets. Personally I'd drop FKZ. FKZ gives you some flashy finishes but a large percentage of the time those are games you're going to win anyway. Also, depending on your local meta, FKZ will likely be your most boarded out card which makes it seem rather superfluous when you consider that the game one win percentage for this deck is amazing even with as little as 0 dedicated DR targets.

Thanks for the feedback. I tried the Thug/Narcomoeba trick and I enjoyed it a lot. I learned a whole new different play style for dredge. ^__^

I kinda like FKZ for some strange reason. Kinda helps me ensure my G1 against combo decks via racing them w/ a turn 2/3 kill. I'll keep the current configuration for this week's tournament and I'll prolly decide if I'll cut the DR targets and/or add Darkblast MD depending on the results of the tournament (MU).

BTW, what's your take on Burning Inquiry (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/m10/128.jpg) as a replacement for Careful Study?

Thanks again!

[LordEvilTeaCup]

BTW, what's your take on Burning Inquiry (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/m10/128.jpg) as a replacement for Careful Study?

Thanks again!

Seems alright game 1, but post SB I would rather not help my opponent draw into hate... The discard is random, but that is still not enough to make me feel safe at least.

[Digital Devil]

Hi guys, I'm willing to play @ a 30-40 men tournament next sunday, so I need to ask you a few things. I know 8 people will bring NOBant, 3 will bring Survival, 3 will bring Merfolk, 1 will bring UWR Landstill, the rest of the meta is unknown except I'm expecting someone will play Zoo, and also the mirror, since I'm one out of three hypothetical Dredge players, here. No Reanimator, no ANT, no Lands, no Enchantress. Seems like Dredge would be an interesting choice (well, I only own this deck, of course I'm playing it...). After intensive playtesting, I returned to the build I was familiar with, the one with Iona as my only DR target. Playing with only GGT makes me feel fragile, especially g2, while an early Iona can make you forget about that Crypt/Relic, since it's three turns to go.

LIST:
------------------------------------------------
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TSP] Dread Return
------------------------------------------------
This is the build I've always played IRL, and I think I won't ever change it. The difficult part is how to reach perfection, how to make my sideboard work properly, and *what* to play in my sideboard. I was tinkering with something like this:

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen

Claim is a must. Half of the field is unknown to me, so there could still be Leyline/Wheel/Planar Void. Also, if I'm playing the mirror match, I need answers to Leyline. No Blazing Archons, so no Chain of Vapor. Grudge is the obvious one. Faeries took my own Leyline's spots since they're far more efficient against the mirror, and they synergize better with the deck's gameplan. I'll bring in Darkblast against Survival, the mirror, and if Goblins will show up, I'll know what to do. Angel of Despair is against Enchantress/Stax - I still don't know if there will be any, but I'm playing AoD because of the Windborn Muse/Spike Weaver trend Survival players tend to follow. Ancestor's Chosen comes in against NOBant and decks with a fast clock, or that can deal a set amount of damage. I was thinking about Pithing Needle in the sideboard, but I don't know what to cut, and even then, I still have to obtain 'em.

[Benobi]

Hey all, I'm a long-time Standard player trying to break into Legacy. I have a decent grip on the format and I know this deck works, but I'm not confident in my ability to play it post-sideboard, and I'd kinda like to see some games in action. Does anyone know of any good sites for watching replay videos of Ichorid matches?

[Bryant Cook]

Is there a reason other than Jailer to play Darkblast?

[sunshine]

Is there a reason other than Jailer to play Darkblast?

I don't run the card myself but it kills pretty much everything Goblins has, Hierarchs, and other random 1 toughness dudes (recurring Spore Frog is kinda gross...). With two mana available you can start killing creatures with two toughness - most notably Teeg and MMage. It's biggest benefit though is the fact that it can start your dredging without a discard outlet as long as your opponent is trying to apply any pressure.

Personally, I've found it underwhelming as more than a 1-of. Jailer is a pain like you said, but I can't remember the last time someone played a Jailer against me and I'd rather just have Firestorms anyway.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't run the card myself but it kills pretty much everything Goblins has, Hierarchs, and other random 1 toughness dudes (recurring Spore Frog is kinda gross...). With two mana available you can start killing creatures with two toughness - most notably Teeg and MMage. It's biggest benefit though is the fact that it can start your dredging without a discard outlet as long as your opponent is trying to apply any pressure.

Personally, I've found it underwhelming as more than a 1-of. Jailer is a pain like you said, but I can't remember the last time someone played a Jailer against me and I'd rather just have Firestorms anyway.

Thank you. I was looking at lists and couldn't figure out why it's actually in there, it seems weak. I've also haven't seen a jailer in a sideboard in a long time.

I'm considering building this for local events, I'm running a pretty standard maindeck. However, I'm wondering why no one runs needle in the board?

This is my sideboard...

4x Pithing Needle
3x Nature's Claim
3x Chain of Vapor
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Terrastodon (In all honesty it's half the reason I want to play this deck)
1x Ancestor's Chosen

What do you guy's think?

[menace13]

Dark Blast sees more Vintage play for BoBs,Welders. Same with Needles in regards to SB for Ichorid, mostly for Time Vault, but has shown up in a few Legacy Dredge lists. Reanimator uses Needles to fight GY hate no reason why Dredge can not. SB looks good, although i like Firestorm too much to not include.

[Bryant Cook]

How would you guys sideboard using the sideboard I listed? I have no idea what to take out.

[bum_man]

Dark Blast sees more Vintage play for BoBs,Welders. Same with Needles in regards to SB for Ichorid, mostly for Time Vault, but has shown up in a few Legacy Dredge lists. Reanimator uses Needles to fight GY hate no reason why Dredge can not. SB looks good, although i like Firestorm too much to not include.
Reanimator uses needles and are able to do so effectively because they can comfortably draw into them, unlike Dredge which often dredges away needles that it doesn't have in the first 11 or so cards that it draws into.


Thank you. I was looking at lists and couldn't figure out why it's actually in there, it seems weak. I've also haven't seen a jailer in a sideboard in a long time.
Darkblast has marginal uses. I use them to take out lavamancers, noble hierarchs, cursecatchers, hexmages and random goblins that run rampant where I play. If you often see these critters, Darkblast is just great to have. Plus, it dredges itself. Thug has its merits though, I don't play them mainly because I don't have 2 lands enough times for them to become relatively useful for me.


I'm considering building this for local events, I'm running a pretty standard maindeck. However, I'm wondering why no one runs needle in the board?

This is my sideboard...

4x Pithing Needle
3x Nature's Claim
3x Chain of Vapor
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Terrastodon (In all honesty it's half the reason I want to play this deck)
1x Ancestor's Chosen

What do you guy's think?
Isn't 13 slots for artifact hate a little excessive? I feel 4 Needles along with Nature's Claim, Chain of Vapor, and Ancient Grudge are a little redundant imo, unless you really do want to overkill artifact and enchantment hate. Maybe firestorms? or the 4th Grudge? I personally think 4 Grudges are needed because you want them online in your graveyard as early as possible. Might I ask what match-ups you expect to see in your meta?

[menace13]

4 Needles is fine in Ichorid, even w/o DA or C.Sage. It is the same with Leyline where you mull into it, but Study can help sometimes.

Edit: C.Sage should be Sphinx.
Sideboarding;
I cut some Breakthrough or Tribes/Imps to 6,Thug goes down to 2 if list has more. If i've 4 Dr. Returns down to 2-3 depending if my targets in the mu are better than slow roll zombie beats.

[NightN]

Edit: C.Sage should be Sphinx.


In a Bloodghast (http://topdeck.ru/card_images/showcard.php?Bloodghast)\Undiscovered Paradise (http://topdeck.ru/card_images/showcard.php?Undiscovered%20Paradise) list it should be Cephalid Sage (http://topdeck.ru/card_images/showcard.php?Cephalid%20Sage) in general btw.

[NecroYawgmoth]

nope...

Eternal Witness is the better reanimate target in Bloodghast Dredge, because you can do Witness -> Coliseum -> Landfall Trigger -> use Coliseum for the same Effect + Bloodghasts, or just recur Witness for a land... All in all EW is nearly everytime superior to Sage IMO...

then again... Bloodghast Dredge is almost everytime superior to non-Ghast Dredge IMO

@ Bryant

what about this?

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void / Coffin Purge / Natures Claim / Firestorm
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon

IMO every Dredge-Board should contain:

4 Chain
3 Grudge
1 Chosen
1 Terastodon
at least 1 more piece against Leyline (Claim/Ray/Wispmare)

this leaves 5 slots for other things


YawG

[Bryant Cook]

nope...

Eternal Witness is the better reanimate target in Bloodghast Dredge, because you can do Witness -> Coliseum -> Landfall Trigger -> use Coliseum for the same Effect + Bloodghasts, or just recur Witness for a land... All in all EW is nearly everytime superior to Sage IMO...

then again... Bloodghast Dredge is almost everytime superior to non-Ghast Dredge IMO

@ Bryant

what about this?

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void / Coffin Purge / Natures Claim / Firestorm
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon

IMO every Dredge-Board should contain:

4 Chain
3 Grudge
1 Chosen
1 Terastodon
at least 1 more piece against Leyline (Claim/Ray/Wispmare)

this leaves 5 slots for other things


YawG

Could you post your bloodghast list? Also, how to sideboard with it.

[NecroYawgmoth]

right now it looks like this...

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Dakmor Salvage

//Sideboard:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon


Careful Study was always weak IMO... i tested it often, and never liked it...

I've tested 12 Lands before, 4 Oboro, 4 City, 4 Paradise +1 DR, +1 Iona, +1 EW -1 Tribe, which was quite good in games 2/3 because Oboro is better in that games than Coliseum. You just can't risk to lose that many cards against gravehate.
Logic with Oboro was this: We nearly ALWAYS win game 1, even if we slowroll, so I tried to optimize the MB directly for G2/3 without wasting Sideboardspace...

Ghasts still remain in play, and Ghasts with 8 recurring Lands is absolute sick. [to have 4 offs of Ichorid, Moeba & Ghast is also sick] You don't have this empty Dredges with... oh, I found nothing =(

But 3 DRs with 3 targets were too many, and I wanted the 4th Tribe in, so I came to this list. IMO 1 Salvage is required if you don't play EW.

I am testing 3 Coliseum, 2 Oboro right now, cant tell ATM if 4/1 or 3/2 is better... [I'd like 4/2 but no space >.<]

...usually I board out the Breakthroughs, because you can't "all in" in G2/3 because if they have Trap / topdeck hate, you lose... If u need more Space -1 Ichorid, -1 Thug, or -Iona in some MUs, but you never need more then 7 Slots.


YawG

[menace13]

I havent faced Ghast Ichorid yet(in legacy) and i could see it as more powerful and forces hate to be used before they are comfortable doing so. Isn't it dubbed "Next Level Dredge" by the kids these days? Seen a few lists running around on deckcheck with the monicker. I would like to see your list and sb'ing as well, interested in it, a version went 4-0 last night in Legacy DE online.

Edit: Ninja'd

Edit: @Yawg- Do you ever miss Study g2-3 when you are digging or for a qucik refill after EOT on hate ,maybe leave in 1 or 2 Breakthroughs games 2 -3or the extra Ichorid and Imp/Tribe (to 7)?

[Rune]

Although I agree that Careful Study is the weakest card in the deck, I don't see how Bloodghast is the correct replacement. Bloodghast is awesome in Vintage because you are spending your mana on fighting the hate every turn, so you need more free dudes to enable Dread Return. In Legacy, however, there is a lot less hate and you often spend your mana on hardcasting discard dudes or just 1/1 flying dorks, making it very easy to get to 3 creatures. Another argument for playing him could be the fact that he's a recurring threat, but the problem is he's not a very big threat. I often win games in Vintage by just beating down with Bloodghasts, but that's because there are few blockers in that format. On the other hand, there are infinite things that prevent BG from connecting in Legacy. Until the Ghast versions start outperforming the "normal" Dredge decks, I think I will stay on the fence. :o

Also, I'm against Boarding out Breakthrough. It's often the most game-ending spell in the deck. If you start with one in your opening hand in a sideboarded game, then your gameplan becomes very simple: clear the way of counterspells and hate and cast Breakthrough -> win. I've done silly things with the card, like beating Lands.dec when my opponent had Academy Ruins + Crypt going. I was in a situation where no other card would have saved me, but because of BT I was able to blow up all his stuff before I got locked out of the game.

Lastly, I think you should run City of Brass instead of Gemstone Mine if you play Undiscovered Paradise. It's a huge pain in the neck when Gemstone runs out of counters and you want to keep hardcasting dudes or just keep playing anti-hate cards, and the damage from Brass is rarely a problem.

[sunshine]

I've never been sold on Bloodghast. Literally there have been four foily ones sitting in the "Maybe for Dredge" section of my playables binder since preorders shipped.

I'll pose this question for those who do like the card: What MUs does Ghast improve for you?

As far as Breakthrough goes. Running a single Breakthrough before Careful Study #4 and Coliseum #4 just seems sub-optimal to me. If I might be a little underhand, I'll steal some of Yawg's words:


We nearly ALWAYS win game 1, even if we slowroll


...usually I board out the Breakthroughs, because you can't "all in" in G2/3 because if they have Trap / topdeck hate, you lose...

I agree with both of these completely - which raises the obvious question, is Breakthrough needed? Both Careful Study and Coliseum shine in games 2 and 3. If I could run six copies of CS I would drop Breakthrough from my list completely.

[NecroYawgmoth]

As far as Breakthrough goes. Running a single Breakthrough before Careful Study #4 and Coliseum #4 just seems sub-optimal to me. If I might be a little underhand, I'll steal some of Yawg's words:





I agree with both of these whole completely - which raises the obvious question, is Breakthrough needed? Both Careful Study and Coliseum shine in games 2 and 3. If I could run six copies of CS I would drop Breakthrough from my list completely.


BT: Breakthrough is broken... a resolved Breakthrough G1 spells win... G2 and 3 it can be countered by Gravehate... it's too risky to go all in, and then lose all, if you could play safely, which you can't do with BT because you need to discard your hand.

Study: in game 2&3 Studies are most of the time the most outboarded card in the deck, which means it is the worst card [same logic for LED-Dredge, which causes this deck to exist], and the LED-Dredges in the past also didin't play any Studies...
Study is weak IMO... I never was satisfied with Study, because I don't like it as an Outlet [because it isn't permanent], neither as a Dredge-enabler [because even Brainstorm is better here]... First Turn PimP or Tribe is better than Study. And after that 1st Turn with an Dredger in grave, B.Through, Coliseum, and even Brainstorm is better than Study.

Ghasts:Bloodghasts doesn't impove any MUs very much [only Aggro I think, because you can make more Zombie Tokens] ... But they enable you to play much more safely around all the hate...
They don't kill as many Creatures as Ichorids would do, so they are free damage, or if the get blocked... Tokens
You have more Critters, that can stay on the Board, you can generate Tokens, when your Grave gets crypted, and you find 1 Bridge, without any Ichorids... Pate is worthless against us with Ghasts... There are many situations in games, where Ghasts are absolutely awesome, because it's an additional way to generate Zombies.
Paradise / Oboro = Ghasts, sac to Therapies... even more Zombies... than with Ichorids only [which needs something to eat]... and if they exile your yard... you still have the beaters [unlike Ichorids]


How many of you have tested Ghasts in real games, and not only in goldfishing without hate, or in theory? IMO they are a very good completement for this deck ALONGSIDE Ichorids and Moebas, not in exchange for 1 of these.


YawG

[jimirynk]

Could you post your bloodghast list? Also, how to sideboard with it.

Wow look who got drunk and ended up in my thread.



Also on the break though question, it is the MOST boarded out card in the deck or you're doing it wrong.
I've considered cutting it over and over but there is NO better draw spell game 1 and after board I'm more than happy with the amount of draw left in.

[sunshine]

BT: Breakthrough is broken... a resolved Breakthrough G1 spells win... G2 and 3 it can be countered by Gravehate... it's too risky to go all in, and then lose all, if you could play safely, which you can't do with BT because you need to discard your hand.

I think we're already in agreement that most Dredge lists, even those without Breakthrough at all, have an outstanding Game 1 Win percentage - Especially now that combo will be taking a serious hit (not to say that combo isn't viable - just that I expect its popularity to decrease). I acknowledge that Breakthrough a stronger spell than CS in game one, but can we agree that Careful Study is better than Breakthrough in post board games?


Study: in game 2&3 Studies are most of the time the most outboarded card in the deck, which means it is the worst card [same logic for LED-Dredge, which causes this deck to exist], and the LED-Dredges in the past also didin't play any Studies...
Study is weak IMO... I never was satisfied with Study, because I don't like it as an Outlet [because it isn't permanent], neither as a Dredge-enabler [because even Brainstorm is better here]... First Turn PimP or Tribe is better than Study. And after that 1st Turn with an Dredger in grave, B.Through, Coliseum, and even Brainstorm is better than Study.

Dredge is a highly meta dependent deck, past lists are somewhat irrelevant - particularly those with the LED package as that deck plays quite differently. Also, It doesn't really matter if turn 1 PImp > turn 1 CS - We run 4 PImp, and in most cases 4 Tribe already, beyond that there aren't any viable 1CC permanent outlets for us. Brainstorm is a better mass-dredge enabler than CS, but it's also obviously not a discard outlet. CS is the best 1CC discard outlet that also provides draw and lets you maintain a reasonable hand size - and isn't PImp or Tribe.

CS, along with Coliseum, gives you the ability to quickly refill your yard after after getting Crypted - and if you don't have a permanent discard outlet available it still allows you to get a dredger in the graveyard without over committing.

[bum_man]

IMO every Dredge-Board should contain:

4 Chain
3 Grudge
1 Chosen
1 Terastodon
at least 1 more piece against Leyline (Claim/Ray/Wispmare)

this leaves 5 slots for other things
I agree, the last 5 should probably include the 4th grudge above all else.

@Yawg: Don't you find that the deck doesn't dredge/chain dredge fast enough without careful studies and breakthroughs post-board? I often observe that decks like zoo can really give this deck a run for its money without the speed buff provided by draw spells. Plus, when your graveyard gets hit, draw spells help you recover faster; this IMO is very important post-board, definitely more important than being able to have bloodghasts online.

@sunshine: It [Bloodghast] helps against the combo match-up because it helps me combo-out faster. It also helps me against zoo and merfolk. It's a big help in grinding out games against them because often they can't handle too many threats attacking on my side.

@Yawg: Breakthrough, is a speed buff, if it resolves, good blue players are always looking to smother a breakthrough attempt. We bait them into misplaying their counters by baiting studies and therapy. Studies are very important to this deck because it is so versatile. It draws, dredges and discards. It is a good bait card for counters, if they counter it you get to resolve an outlet or breakthrough, if they don't you get to dredge or draw, either way, your position in the game improves. It dredges enough to improve your game state.

@Bryant: Against non-blue you could try -1 Breakthrough -1 Careful Study -1 Dread Return -2 DR targets for 5 slots. Against blue you could take out all breakthroughs, -1 Dread Return, and -2 Targets for 6-7 slots depending on your list.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Do we need to Chain-Dredge game 2&3?
G2/3 is all about slowdredge IMO, so I board out BT most of the time [you don't board it out against Combo]...
We lose a bit ChainDredging, what's IMO not needed against Zoo, because we have more ways to generate Tokens, and a faster DR with Ghasts, also...

I agree with the fact, that game 2&3 CS is better than BT.
I can follow your logic, that I could play CS over BT because I'll win game 1 anyways, and strength the other 2 games.

BUT look at my BG List above... look how tight it is... In 90% of the time, I board out BT... if the BT would be CS, I'd board out CS, because this would still be my worst card in the 60s...

So If I nearly always board out the 4 cards in this 4 slots [regardless if it is CS or BT], than it is logical, that I play with the card, who is better in G1 isn't it?


YawG

[sunshine]

So If I nearly always board out the 4 cards in this 4 slots [regardless if it is CS or BT], than it is logical, that I play with the card, who is better in G1 isn't it?



I don't think it's correct to always (or often) board out those four slots if they are CS though.

If you feel comfortable winning game 1 without those four slots - why not just run your Chains, or other DR targets, main and free up some more SB space?



It [Breakthrough] helps against the combo match-up because it helps me combo-out faster. It also helps me against zoo and merfolk. It's a big help in grinding out games against them because often they can't handle too many threats attacking on my side.

Granted it helps against combo and is good against zoo and merfolk in the first game. We'll have to see how much of a presence combo is after the banning of Mystical Tutor is felt by the format. For Zoo and Merfolk I don't believe a resolved Breakthrough is going to put you far enough past where a resolved CS would to justify the fact that one is a liability post board.

[bum_man]

Do we need to Chain-Dredge game 2&3?
G2/3 is all about slowdredge IMO, so I board out BT most of the time [you don't board it out against Combo]...
We lose a bit ChainDredging, what's IMO not needed against Zoo, because we have more ways to generate Tokens, and a faster DR with Ghasts, also...
By saying not dredging/chain dredging fast enough, i meant how often you dredge cards into your graveyard per turn, do you think a maximum of 6 per turn is enough. My point being, having to dredge more cards earlier in the game finds you more business cards like therapies, ichorids, narcs, ghats and bridges earlier, which puts you in a better game state earlier.


I agree with the fact, that game 2&3 CS is better than BT.
I can follow your logic, that I could play CS over BT because I'll win game 1 anyways, and strength the other 2 games.

BUT look at my BG List above... look how tight it is... In 90% of the time, I board out BT... if the BT would be CS, I'd board out CS, because this would still be my worst card in the 60s...

So If I nearly always board out the 4 cards in this 4 slots [regardless if it is CS or BT], than it is logical, that I play with the card, who is better in G1 isn't?
I guess this is a matter of playstyle post-board? So does that mean you've never encountered a situation in games 2 & 3 where a speed buff from BT or CS would've been relevant, either to help you win earlier or win a game that you lost?


Granted it helps against combo and is good against zoo and merfolk in the first game. We'll have to see how much of a presence combo is after the banning of Mystical Tutor is felt by the format. For Zoo and Merfolk I don't believe a resolved Breakthrough is going to put you far enough past where a resolved CS would to justify the fact that one is a liability post board.
Sorry for the confusion, I wasn't able to type it but I was referring to Bloodghast in my previous post and not Breakthrough. @_@

[NecroYawgmoth]

sometimes, when I know that my opponent has no hate in hand, and he won't find hate in the next turn... sure I wish for a speed buff then... [I leave BTs in against combo anyway, because Speed is important here] but all in all, speedbuff is not relevant enough without FKZ...

Some people are so retarded, that they overboard against dredge, and IMO it's enough in G2 & 3 to slowroll the deck...
If I go for BT, dredge half my deck, can win my next turn, and they topdeck Crypt/Relic whatever... I have just lost, beause I throw my hand away... just like LED... CS is clearly better here, but like I said before... If this slots were replaced by CS, I don't know what I should board out, if not these...

...sure, we could build an very strong BG-Dredge with Studies, and BTs but It would be 12 Land then, and very very much relying on DDD I don't think, that is the right way to go... but I am pretty sure that BGs are the way to go...

[Sooru]

Hi all! First post etc.

I recently got myself back to magic, got a ledless dredge deck and now it's time to take it for a spin. I'll play in a tournament at a generic rpg/anime convention (here in Finland) next weekend, and expect the metagame to be mostly fish/zoo with random beats and tier 1 decks being at the minority. I'll write a report when it's done!

My main board in very limited playtesting has been:

4 GGT
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge
4 Narcomoeba
2 Dread Return

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel

I'm thinking I should probably play some darkblasts main since I'm expecting so many creatures. For sideboard I currently have:

4 Grudge
4 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Iona
1 Terastodon
1 Ancestor's Chosen

I have access to Ray of Revelation, Wispmare, Needle, Darkblast, Leyline etc almost all the good options too, and most useful DR targets. I'm thinking Firestorms would be nice against zoo and fish to clear their board and as uncounterable/unkillable discard outlets (in place of some/all Pimps). Chosen for Zoo to buy some time. How about Cabal Therapy, how useful is it against Zoo?

I'm not sure about Iona for fish and random 1 colour decks, are Grave-Trolls generally enough there? I don't think there will be much Iona hate around. Naturally Vapors/Grudges depending what kind of hate they are bringing. Maybe I should include couple dedicated anti enchantment slots too. I think Crypt/Relic will be way most used anti GY hate, but some of the better decks will probably play Wheel and Leyline too.

Out I will be siding Breakthroughs almost every match, mostly for Grudges/Vapors to deal with hate. Then the more specific answers, some Pimps -> some Firestorms, maybe an Ichorid into the dedicated DR target.

Any comments? Mostly I'd like to hear your ideas about the Darkblasts and SB plans, since those are what I have played with the least.

[jimirynk]

I'm not shooting down the idea of bloodghast I just don't know if there is room,
Cards that shouldn't be less than a 4 of;
Cabal Therapy
Putrid Imp
Tireless Tribe
Careful Study
Ichorid
Bride from below
Narcomeba
Golgari Grave-Troll
Stinkweed Imp
Breakthrough(or another draw spell)
Thats 40 cards that IMHO NEED to be of's.
with 13-14 lands and 11-12 dredgers that comes to minimal 56 cards needed md.
The last 4 spot's I always go with 2 dread returns and 2 targets.

I'll post more later but I got stuff to do.

[SHABOOGS]

Hello again,

I'll be playing on a 20-30ish tournament this weekend and was wondering if you can help me with my sideboard. I don't know the MU on that tourney so I'm trying to make a generic sideboard. Here's my current sideboard:

4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Ancestor's Chosen

I used to have Nature's Claim in place of Ray of Revelation but I have found out that there are times when the Claims just get dredged into the graveyard which makes it pretty useless. I noticed that only a few players aggressively mulligan to Leyline of the Void/Planar Void/Wheel of Sun and Moon; and even if they do, I don't think I'll have a problem playing a 2cc spell with my current mana base of 14 lands. I was still thinking of adding Terastodon or Angel of Despair but I'm not sure if it's necessary. Plus I don't like giving my opponents elephant tokens to chump block my army and destroy my bridges at the same time.

[Bryant Cook]

Why do people play Sphinx over Witness? It seems like Witness should always be the better call. Is there something I'm missing?

[Nidd]

Why do people play Sphinx over Witness? It seems like Witness should always be the better call. Is there something I'm missing?
Sphinx is an evasive beater with 3 power?

But why'd you play Sphinx in the first place?

[NecroYawgmoth]

>.>

Iona is an evasive Beater with 7 power... OH, and it's not reliable on Dredgers / Bridges

I played Iona / Witness in the past... never liked Sage or Sphinx.

[Bryant Cook]

I play Iona. I want to play a second Dread Return target, I was thinking Witness.

Why doesn't anyone play FKZ or Sadistic Hypnotist?

[frogboy]

Why do people play Sphinx over Witness? It seems like Witness should always be the better call. Is there something I'm missing?

Sometimes you don't have any spare mana to do anything retarded with Sphinx.

[sunshine]

I play Iona. I want to play a second Dread Return target, I was thinking Witness.

Why doesn't anyone play FKZ or Sadistic Hypnotist?

FKZ is generally unnecessary. You'll get some flashy finishes game 1, but if you've made enough tokens for FKZ to be lethal chances are you've won anyway.

I always found Hypnotist to be too slow. Without the LED combo you really can't get him online before your opponent has a chance to play their hate pieces. In post board games if you're able to DR a Hypnotist you're just as well off, if not better, tearing up your opponents hand with Therapies and sticking Iona. Iona does most of the work that Hypnotist does by herself - the fact that she's also a large flying beater is just amazing, that she doesn't require you to have any bridges in your yard or other creatures in play is very nice as well.

Witness was my only DR target MD for a long time and I really don't think the corner cases where Sphinx might be better amount to anything substantial - particularly in builds running Bloodghast.

[Anusien]

I play Iona. I want to play a second Dread Return target, I was thinking Witness.

Why doesn't anyone play FKZ or Sadistic Hypnotist?
If you want a Dread Return target, run Terastodon. Unlike Witness or Iona or FKZ or Sadistic Hypnotist, Terastodon is good in your bad matchups. It kills stuff like Moat game1.

[badjuju]

@Sunshine

Do you still run Witness/Iona as DR targets?

I've actually adopted the zero MD DR targets right now, although I will admit that Iona can randomly just make games much easier for you. She'd probably be the only reanimation target I'd want to run now. Witness has always been good for me, but I'm still re-exploring my options at this point.

[SHABOOGS]

Why do people play Sphinx over Witness? It seems like Witness should always be the better call. Is there something I'm missing?

I play Sphinx coz it helps me get to the bottom of my library faster. It helps me keep dredging until I get all my key cards in the graveyard, kinda like a breakthrough/cephalid coliseum w/ Flashback. Since I also use FKZ, Sphinx helps me build a lethal army of zombies by getting most of my cards to the graveyard. I then sacrifice Sphinx to get more tokens via dread return and get FKZ out to kill my opponents on that same turn. IMHO, I think Sphinx and FKZ are the best combination of DR targets to use if you want to win as fast as possible. Granted that we win G1 most of the time anyways, I maintain a combo mindset when playing game 1 so that I have a better chance against other fast combo decks like Belcher, ANT and Reanimator.

[Bryant Cook]

I have the deck put together and started goldfishing today.

A few things I've noticed....

Turn one: Discard outlet.
Turn two: Breakthrough or Careful Study? I Imagine go for broke game one and Breakthrough. Game two, if I for some reason left in Breakthrough, careful study for the slow dredge?

another...

Witness vs Sphinx - I've had the chance to Dread Return plenty of times and have to say game one Witness has been a little underwhelming. Most of the time I don't have that extra mana. Do I leave witness in game two? If not I want to cut it. Because I can see getting back Chain of Vapor or Firestorm or some other sideboard card.

[badjuju]

I have the deck put together and started goldfishing today.

A few things I've noticed....

Turn one: Discard outlet.
Turn two: Breakthrough or Careful Study? I Imagine go for broke game one and Breakthrough. Game two, if I for some reason left in Breakthrough, careful study for the slow dredge?

another...

Witness vs Sphinx - I've had the chance to Dread Return plenty of times and have to say game one Witness has been a little underwhelming. Most of the time I don't have that extra mana. Do I leave witness in game two? If not I want to cut it. Because I can see getting back Chain of Vapor or Firestorm or some other sideboard card.

Most of the time I go for Careful Study, but it totally depends on the matchup. If you need speed, say against combo, and have a decent amount of dredges, definitely aim for Breakthrough.This maximizes your chances of hitting narcs and therapies asap. Remember that Breakthrough is an all-in card, so game 2 I usually only use it after I bait out hate.

Witness is simply more flexible than Sphinx. After playing the deck for a while, I can definitely say that I appreciate witness more, but these days I feel both are unnecessary. The problem with both of these is that they help you win more. Granted witness can "get SB cards back", you must overcome the obstacle in the first place to even use Dread Return on her. Straight up (almost) silver bullets, like Iona, Ancestor's Chosen, and Terastadon, are actual amazing reanimation targets for the respective matchups. Witness is sometimes flexible and Sphinx helps you win more - I would rather just run zero of these MD and roll with a more consistent list. Neither of these targets greatly enhance your chances of winning game 1. As I stated in my previous post, I think the only reanimation target I'd still run is Iona, cause she can randomly end games without trying.

[Bryant Cook]

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Eternal Witness
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel

4 Firestorm
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon

What would you add over Witness to make the decklist more consistent? In all reality, it looks as about as consistent as it's going to get. I guess you could play three Dread Return instead. But that seems weak to me. I guess I could play a 14th land, but I haven't had any issues with 13. I'm a lazy mulligan-er too, but with this deck I've been pretty aggressive and it's been working just fine.

There's a bit of combo (TES/Ant/Cascade) and reanimator in Syracuse still. Which means there's cards like Blazing Archon I need to remember about, which is one of the reasons I'm so sold on Witness -> Firestorm/Chain.

[badjuju]

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Eternal Witness
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel

4 Firestorm
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon

What would you add over Witness to make the decklist more consistent? In all reality, it looks as about as consistent as it's going to get. I guess you could play three Dread Return instead. But that seems weak to me. I guess I could play a 14th land, but I haven't had any issues with 13. I'm a lazy mulligan-er too, but with this deck I've been pretty aggressive and it's been working just fine.

There's a bit of combo (TES/Ant/Cascade) and reanimator in Syracuse still. Which means there's cards like Blazing Archon I need to remember about, which is one of the reasons I'm so sold on Witness -> Firestorm/Chain.

The list looks fine, but you're spot on about where to improve consistency. I run 15 land currently (I know, crazy right), but I also have to deal with hate all the time where I am, so I end up going man plan a lot (yea, Stinkweed Imp and Narcomoeba beatdown, I am not shitting you). Lands really help against Wasteland and make sure your game 2 and 3 aren't so rough. Otherwise, it's opting to run 12 dredgers or the third Dread Return. Even though 3 Dread Returns looks wasted, it's really not, as it allows you to consistently have a sac outlet for Narcomoebas. If you have Iona, you definitely want to think about running 3 just for consistency's sake.

If there' still a decent amount of combo in Syracuse, I'd consider running Unmasks in the board. I know many people are against it, but I have had much success vs storm decks with it. If you can halt them for a turn or two, you can really seal the deal by hitting even just one Cabal Therapy and then using your few zombies to go the distance while constantly snowballing your dredges.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I have the deck put together and started goldfishing today.

A few things I've noticed....

Turn one: Discard outlet.
Turn two: Breakthrough or Careful Study? I Imagine go for broke game one and Breakthrough. Game two, if I for some reason left in Breakthrough, careful study for the slow dredge?

another...

Witness vs Sphinx - I've had the chance to Dread Return plenty of times and have to say game one Witness has been a little underwhelming. Most of the time I don't have that extra mana. Do I leave witness in game two? If not I want to cut it. Because I can see getting back Chain of Vapor or Firestorm or some other sideboard card.

If you're trying to lure a counter, play Breakthrough. If you want to slow roll for whatever reason game one (i.e. Jotun Grunt etc.) then play Careful Study.

Depending on who you're playing against (aka blue decks) Cabal Therapy for Force of Will can also be the correct turn one play because a good blue player will attempt to counter all of your discard outlets.

During game two, Breakthrough is the correct play if you're opponent has no hate on the table and you know their hand doesn't contain counters or Ravenous Trap.

Careful Study becomes the correct play when you're trying to dig for hate and/or slow roll your opponent. This becomes less important if they don't have active hate on the board.

I'd cut Eternal Witness, simply because there's better DR targets. When I played with EW, I never liked how when you got her back that nothing really happened until the next turn unelss you were lucky enough to have x lands out.

[Anusien]

Turn one: Discard outlet.
Turn two: Breakthrough or Careful Study? I Imagine go for broke game one and Breakthrough. Game two, if I for some reason left in Breakthrough, careful study for the slow dredge?
It depends on what's in your hand. Generally I'll cast Careful Study there only if I have more gas in my hand. Game 1 I generally don't worry too much about how opponents could potentially mess me up. Most people don't have any grave hate at all, and if they do you can generally race it. The best way to deal with the possibility of an opponent ripping Crypt is to fill the board with Zombies and Trolls as quickly as possible. But yeah, generally I slam Breakthrough as fast as possible (when it's safe) if I have it (after-Therapy post-board if necessary) because it means that I can put some fattie on the board. The best way to be resilient to hate is to make them have lots of removal. Zombies can be removed with EE/Firespout, Troll can be removed with StP, Ichorids can be removed with GY hate, but you want to make them show you three different cards to win.


Witness vs Sphinx - I've had the chance to Dread Return plenty of times and have to say game one Witness has been a little underwhelming. Most of the time I don't have that extra mana. Do I leave witness in game two? If not I want to cut it. Because I can see getting back Chain of Vapor or Firestorm or some other sideboard card.
I've built my sideboard to not need to use Witness game 2. Instead of Chain of Vapor and such, I've got Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation. If you need to remove a Blazing Archon, I think it's more appropriate to sideboard (or maindeck) an Angel of Despair.
Do an experiment for me; as you goldfish, look and see how often when you're getting Sphinx or Witness that you could just end the next game with a giant Troll.

With regards to your list, I think it's spot-on except for the Dread Return targets. I'd cut Iona and main an Angel of Despair, and cut Witness for a land. Then I'd consider switching Careful Study #4 for a land, since you generally have to mulligan more often because of lands than because of gas.

[Benobi]

I'm sure it's been answered umpteen times in a 2000-post thread, but can someone give me a quickie-guide to sideboarding for various matchups? Primarily, I'm concerned about when to side in the extra DR targets, and how to SB if you're not sure what hate they're running?

[menace13]

I'm sure it's been answered umpteen times in a 2000-post thread, but can someone give me a quickie-guide to sideboarding for various matchups? Primarily, I'm concerned about when to side in the extra DR targets, and how to SB if you're not sure what hate they're running?

Past two pages?

[sunshine]

@Sunshine

Do you still run Witness/Iona as DR targets?

I've actually adopted the zero MD DR targets right now, although I will admit that Iona can randomly just make games much easier for you. She'd probably be the only reanimation target I'd want to run now. Witness has always been good for me, but I'm still re-exploring my options at this point.

Running witness in the board right now. Iona is my only MD dedicated DR target.

[Brad Herbig]

I am running Iona and Angel of Despair as my two DR targets in the mainboard. In my sideboard, I have Terestadon, Ancestor's Chosen, and Eternal Witness (for the same reason as Bryant, returning Firestorms/Chains/etc.)

I am really liking the two angels in the main because of their evasion, and I really like how Angel of Despair answers pretty much any hate that decks might have in their list.