[Deck] Sylvan Warstill

[Phoenix Ignition]

This deck came about from one of the Gencon 2007 decks. I liked the idea of sylvan library's draw being replaced, thus giving you 3 replacement draws per turn. Find out a way to break this and you're set, but use of children of korlis and lack of blue seemed sub-optimal in today's meta.

The list:
23 Land:
4 Mishra's Factory
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island

4 Mox Diamond

Control:
3 Devastating Dreams
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
2 Engineered Explosives

Win setups:
3 Life from the Loam
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Sylvan Library

Win Conditions:
2 Words of War
1 Words of Wilding

So basically the point of the deck is to have some control aspects that don't hurt my win condition. A Loam shell for lands and devastating dreams is very deadly, and hopefully with academy ruins and EE can control the match until your win is set up. Wasteland + LftL semi-lock is always fun.

The hope is that you just replace your 3 draws (with 1 Library out) with either Words or LftL and cycle some lands for draws later so you don't take the damage off of the Sylvan's effect.

The great thing I love about Sylvan Library is that it not only is part of the win condition, it also sets it up... what's not to like? (I'm sure people will find plenty :wink:)



The Choices:

Mishra's Factory: Great with landstill, good with LftL, good with EE, good stall on goyfs if you have LftL.

The Tabernacle at...: This card is still iffy in the deck. I love the control aspect, and there is some synergy with having wastelands to deny mana, but it might be taken out in the future.

Fetches: Extra good with SDT and Sylvan library

Mox Diamond: Very helpful in getting the right mana and living through Devastating Dreams. Good with playing a first turn (insert 2 drop card name here).

Devastating Dreams: LftL, Mox D, and no creatures make this card very good in here.

Standstill: great with Words out, great with factory, first turn is extra good

FoW: Blue deck with 16 blue cards = runs FoW?

Counterbalance: 4 of seems too much, but it's an amazing 1st turn drop, and I don't like playing FoW without 16 blues, so I put in 4.

EE: + Academy in a 3 color deck = good usually.

SDT: auto add with Counterbalance, but 2 is enough with all the drawing/looking I'm doing.

Sylvan Library: Star of the deck.

Brainstorm: Great anytime, replace the draws late game.

Words: 2 and 1 seemed the best. I don't like going the bear token route just because having no creatures in the deck makes for pseudo-card advantage by making the opponent run dead creature removal cards, but I also didn't like how if War got needled I would pretty much auto-lose. I'm still wondering if I should switch the Wilding out for another War, and then just sideboard it in.

No matchup information yet, but I think it's pretty solid. The only thing I've ever seen that's been a problem is DD and then not having enough mana to replace all my draws, but that usually doesn't matter.

It's not perfect yet, but I really think this shell has a potential, any comments are greatly appreciated.

Edit 1: -3 Lonely Sandbar +3 Tropical Island, -3 Flooded Strand +3 Wooded Foothills

[Jak]

16 blue is a really low count. Your win cons need a lot of mana to make them worthwhile and you are running DD whcih makes you lose what standstill drew for you. You really should run intuition. Cut the Sandbars because they are mediocre. It seems like there is a lot of clunkiness to the deck and I am pretty sure it's because of the blue. I'll try to test a bit later but that's what I see.

[Phoenix Ignition]

16 blue is a really low count. Your win cons need a lot of mana to make them worthwhile and you are running DD whcih makes you lose what standstill drew for you. You really should run intuition. Cut the Sandbars because they are mediocre. It seems like there is a lot of clunkiness to the deck and I am pretty sure it's because of the blue. I'll try to test a bit later but that's what I see.

16 is low, actually the minimum I would ever run with FoW. What would you take out for Intuitions?

I like DD for the control aspect, but I have seen the mana problems that you were hinting at. I haven't had a problem with the discard aspect for DD generally because of LftL filling my hand. Discarding what standstill got me isn't too bad either just because killing off 3+ of their lands and some of their creatures is worth the hand loss.

I think I just needed someone to tell me to cut sandbars to make me feel okay with it. It was an auto include with the LftL, but I have to tell myself that I'm not playing with Seismic Assault, so there's really not a large reason for recurring the LftL. I will add in 3 tropical islands in their stead.

Blue does seem like the clunkiest color, but I don't think that a pure green/red version of this would be able to win, especially with all of the TES and ANT. I'd have to add black for disruption instead of blue (does this seem like a better option? I've not tested it, but can't really think of why it would improve the deck), or add in some white for chants. I have tested this with white instead of blue using StoP but it I did not like it.

[Media314r8]

IMO, this deck seems very poor against decks running FoW. (1/2 the format) Trying to nuke a goyf with DD usually requires 4-5 cards, depending obv whats in your hand, so you dont accidentaly make him bigger and not kill him. This has very, VERY poor synergy with 'FoW backup,' as you are almost 100% going to discard either your force or one of your other 15 blue cards when paying costs for DD. Having to pitch cards pitch cards to force also makes early DD worse. (when it is often needed- vs aggro or goblins) IMHO, adding skimpy blue requirements and force will not make aggro-loam have a favorable MU vs combo G1, and weakens the deck against the rest of the field. You have a very slow clock, and I dont see you setting up counter-top while running a 4-2 split, (???) so combo WILL have time to go off through a chant/discard. (though the surprise factor may help you here.... but if you're playing out a standstill or another blue card that's not CB, your odds just got worse, as the ANT player now knows you're running blue, and he will find gas and protection in the 10 turns it will take for you to kill him with factory.)

[puppektion]

I like the idea... I just don't think there's enough protection. Maybe someday when wizards stops giving combo such bombs *coughAdNauseumcauch* but until then, probably not.

[georgjorge]

Life from the Loam + Sylvan Library doesn't work well, to abuse it you'd need two or three Loams replacing all your draws with dredging. With one Loam, you only replace your "normal" draw with Loam, and still have to pay four life if you want to get additional cards.

[Waikiki]

you should be playing abundance if you want massive card advantage. But I do not think that would be competative.

[Mordenkaynen]

you should be playing abundance if you want massive card advantage.
I think Uba Mask is better, but still not very useful.

[Pulp_Fiction]

The most important question is why would you ever run this over something like Lands! and Eternal Garden? What benefits does this have over those?

[georgjorge]

Erm...key differences having library manipulation (Brainstorm/Library), being able to counter spells (Force/CBalance), and playing Devastating Dreams. Plus, not sucking so much against combo, not auto-losing against Armageddon etc. This just looks pretty different than those decks, it's probably better compared to Intuition Control (ITF, or however they call those versions), which often DOES play CBalance and Forces.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Life from the Loam + Sylvan Library doesn't work well, to abuse it you'd need two or three Loams replacing all your draws with dredging. With one Loam, you only replace your "normal" draw with Loam, and still have to pay four life if you want to get additional cards.

I know that if you replace one of the draws then you need to pay 4 life for each other card that you keep this turn, but the point of the loam engine is to have an additional option to replace 1 of your draws and use the 2 others on words. This can keep a wasteland lock going or a mishra's factory chump block going while continuing the words beatdown.


The most important question is why would you ever run this over something like Lands! and Eternal Garden? What benefits does this have over those?

Believe it or not, decks that run manlands and LftL aren't all the same. This deck offers devastating dreams, minor blue control, and tons of cantripping/drawing action to hit what you need along with lands to provide alternate control/win conditions.

That question is like asking why run eva green over team america... because they are completely different, even while sharing some of the same cards.

[georgjorge]

I know that if you replace one of the draws then you need to pay 4 life for each other card that you keep this turn, but the point of the loam engine is to have an additional option to replace 1 of your draws and use the 2 others on words. This can keep a wasteland lock going or a mishra's factory chump block going while continuing the words beatdown.

I see...but in that case, when you dredge Loam it is totally irrelevant if you have Library or not. So the only real synergy is between Words and Library, and I don't know if that's enough to justify Library over additional Tops and other cards?

[Phoenix Ignition]

I see...but in that case, when you dredge Loam it is totally irrelevant if you have Library or not. So the only real synergy is between Words and Library, and I don't know if that's enough to justify Library over additional Tops and other cards?

That's not the point, you don't replace all of the draws until you have a words out. Getting a LftL and 2 shots with a words of war or 2 bear tokens is a great draw step in my opinion. And if you don't have a words out then it's up to you whether you want to use the replacement or not... just like in every other deck that has LftL.

[Maveric78f]

Plus, not sucking so much against combo, not auto-losing against Armageddon etc.
Except that Eternal Garden plays itself armageddon, so I don't see how it can autolose against armageddon.

[georgjorge]

And if you don't have a words out then it's up to you whether you want to use the replacement or not... just like in every other deck that has LftL.

That's exactly what I was referring to - if you don't have a Word out, then Library just isn't very good (it does have some uses, but I'd rather have Top which can replace itself and combo with CBalance).


@Maveric:Hmm, just from looking at the next-to-last page of the 5c-EG thread, I don't see any 'Geddons there...it would have surprised me (but let's not derail the thread there).

[Phoenix Ignition]

That's exactly what I was referring to - if you don't have a Word out, then Library just isn't very good (it does have some uses, but I'd rather have Top which can replace itself and combo with CBalance).


I wouldn't say it's a bad card in a deck that has enough fetches to essentially make it a brainstorm a turn. Sure, Top does the same thing for a price, but top doesn't fuel the synergy with words. Does 2 damage or a 2/2 per turn seem like enough of a win condition? I really don't think so, but 6 damage or 3 2/2s a turn is enough (ask ichorid). It sets up the combo and helps you to get the cards you need, I'm actually surprised that the sylvan library is even being mentioned as something that you could remove.

Without it, there would be no reason to play this deck.

[morgan_coke]

I'd pull standstill and the factorys. Loam is a much, much better draw engine than standstill is. I'd also look at some Hoofprints of the Stag action as an alternate win con. It does good stuff with Library. You also need some cycling lands. cutting the factory's and tabernacle would fix that issue nicely. Alternatively, if you keep tabernacle, a propaganda or three would be some good stuff for you.

Intuition could easily go in the standstill slot along with some R&D's or some gaea's blessings. This deck really seems like it wants some more recursion than it has, or at least ways to throw stuff back in the library for re-drawing later.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'd pull standstill and the factorys. Loam is a much, much better draw engine than standstill is. I'd also look at some Hoofprints of the Stag action as an alternate win con. It does good stuff with Library. You also need some cycling lands. cutting the factory's and tabernacle would fix that issue nicely. Alternatively, if you keep tabernacle, a propaganda or three would be some good stuff for you.

Intuition could easily go in the standstill slot along with some R&D's or some gaea's blessings. This deck really seems like it wants some more recursion than it has, or at least ways to throw stuff back in the library for re-drawing later.


I really like these suggestions except for the Hoofprints. Never really found Hoofprints to be good in any deck. I do like the idea of adding in propaganda instead of the standstill, and throwing in some intuitions. That ups the blue count while grabbing either a win condition or a tabernacle or whatever else.

Also taking out manlands is a good step after the loss of standstill, so cyclers will come in. I'll test it and see how it does.

[georgjorge]

I wouldn't say it's a bad card in a deck that has enough fetches to essentially make it a brainstorm a turn. Sure, Top does the same thing for a price, but top doesn't fuel the synergy with words. Does 2 damage or a 2/2 per turn seem like enough of a win condition? I really don't think so, but 6 damage or 3 2/2s a turn is enough (ask ichorid). It sets up the combo and helps you to get the cards you need, I'm actually surprised that the sylvan library is even being mentioned as something that you could remove.

Without it, there would be no reason to play this deck.


I see what you're saying. It's just that the win condition is usually the least important part in a control deck (as the hard part is taking control, not winning afterwards), so the argument that Sylvan has synergy with the win condition doesn't seem that strong. With Top instead of Sylvan, I'd too opt for Hoofprints. Why don't you find them good as a win condition (I don't have much experience with them myself)?

Of course, if the Words also work towards controlling the game and not only as a win condition, that would change things a bit - they seem a bit too slow for that, but that's just in theory. Still, I wouldn't value Sylvan over Top because it has synergy with three cards in the deck. But as I said, I haven't played the deck so far.

[ScatmanX]

How about Pursuit of Knowledge?
It works great with Sylvan Library and Brainstorm.
Haven't played the deck also...

Can you post an updated version for us to see how things are going?

[Phoenix Ignition]

I've never liked hoofprints of stag because it doesn't overrun someone with tokens and the creatures you make are tokens. This opens me up to all sorts of single removal (StoP, snuff out, smother, edict, executioner's capsule, etc) that would set me back 1-2 turns on the hoofprints. I have words of wilding in here because 3 2/2s a turn is better than 1 4/4, especially when they are holding dead removal in their hands. All tokens are susceptible to being easily killed by a lot of CC killing cards, so I am thinking about getting rid of the wilding for another war.

I have both sylvan and top, so I'm confused what your
Still, I wouldn't value Sylvan over Top because it has synergy with three cards in the deck. But as I said, I haven't played the deck so far.
means. Why are you pushing for me to run SDT when I already have 2?

Pursuit of Knowledge is an interesting card, but I don't really have the slots open for something that doesn't help me control or give me the win. Drawing 7 is obviously nice, but it costs 4 and I would have to splash in white. I could try it out though and see how it goes.

The updated list is:
23 Land:
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins
2 Lonely Sandbar
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island

4 Mox Diamond

Control:
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Propaganda
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Intuition
2 Engineered Explosives


Win setups:
3 Life from the Loam
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Sylvan Library

Win Conditions:
1 Words of War
1 Words of Wilding

[Dark_Cynic87]

I don't like the lack of Factories in your updated list. Also, you run intuition, but no way to get your win condition...how do you justify this? Run either WoWar or WoWilding, not both, and do so as a 3-of; either that or add in an Eternal Witness or reclaim or something. I like words of war best as it's removal and win con, and tokens are easily dealt with these days. The bears are within Echoing Decay's reach as well as Pyroclasm and Echoing Truth. Seems like the worse choice. Run one in your board if you feel you need another; you know, to get around a Peedle or something. There's also Barbarian Ring that can be used as an alternate win-con and as recurring removal. I think you should rethink some of your choices. This is like a stackless Sun Tower Evo list, and it's got some properties of Aggro Loam, but what it really needs is focus. Try to figure out what needs to be there and take it from that point--stay away from the danger of cool things. Like D-Dreams.

Pce,

--DC