[Article] Unlocking Legacy - Feeling Nauseous

[hi-val]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/16733_Unlocking_Legacy_Feeling_Nauseous.html

This month, I recap on some tournament-tested AN decks and riff on their strengths a little. It's an interesting deck and I take some swings at the rough Threshold matchup. As always, I welcome input! This one seems to be a little short on the site, I swear they seem to look longer in my word processor. Regarding my postscript at the end, I did avoid Ad Nauseam puns, but I subconsciously put in a wholly gratuitous Burning Wish pun.

I'm particularly interested in your experience with trying to slowroll the combo in the deck, since I talk about that in the article and it seems that more and more lists are tilting towards that.

Ctrl-F for Tarmogoyf returns zero results.

Enjoy!

EDIT: all the decklists and events can be found on deckcheck.net and I'm bummed I forgot to namecheck them in the main article : \

[frogboy]

I actually like all of Doug's articles, but there's never anything particularly inflammatory in them to draw me into the forums. I still figured I should give the thumbs up, though.

[hi-val]

Thanks!

I wanted to clarify this sentence pre-emptively:


You'd probably board in two, since you only want to see a single copy and can't afford to see it a lot. The general premise is that you cast Angel's Grace and then a Covered Ad Nauseam, meaning that you're only vulnerable to Counterbalance.

Regarding vulnerability to Counterbalance, I mean only that if an opponent always or felicitously floats a 1-drop on top of their library, your Angel's Grace gets countered. The way around this, it would seem, is to toss out a test spell to see what they have on deck. Otherwise, you're pretty much home free if both resolve. The sentence makes more sense and makes me look like less of an idiot with the above explanation : D

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ctrl-F for Tarmogoyf returns zero results.



The list is very straightforward; we've got plenty of four-ofs and Chants in there for combo protection (though no maindeck bounce spells). Alongside Duress, Chant can pull out counters from a controlling opponent and can also foil other combo players. Chant is strong enough in this deck that waiting for the mana to open up so you can generate BBW3 and some change is a fine play.

Why must you turn my dentistry into a house of lies?

[Aggro_zombies]

Why must you turn my dentistry into a house of lies?
This is not a subliminal message.

[hi-val]

The total mindfuck is when you read it backwards, only reading the letters that are in prime number positions.

[Artowis]

Only Legacy articles I bother reading anymore (except for any future ones Bardo might post). GJ Doug.

[frogboy]

(except for any future ones Bardo might post)

Word.

[jegger]

There is an error in my list (Carlo Gnesotto in a 40-player event):
I didn't play 61 cards. Rebuild wasn't in the maindeck, someone was wrong to write out the list.

I do another top8 this sunday with the same maindeck, but with a different sb.
Here (http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Dragonsleague+Piazzola+del+Brenta+11%2F08) there is the list.

Good article.

[jazzykat]

Ctrl-F for Tarmogoyf returns zero results.


Quoting your article: There's also the potential for transformational sideboards. Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf can bring lots of beats and they're reasonably easy to produce in this deck.

That was a clever ploy... :P

On a more serious note, I don't know much what you want us to say. There really is much to debate about as you collected winning Ad Nauseum lists compiled them and briefly commented on some strategies. The few points you made are pretty hard to argue with. I think it would provide insight on the deck to people totally unfamiliar with Legacy storm combo or just getting back into Legacy. To that extent you succeeded.

[Bryant Cook]

How did you not include TES lists in there? Had equal success to "ANT" and both decks run Nauseum.

[hi-val]

How did you not include TES lists in there? Had equal success to "ANT" and both decks run Nauseum.

I didn't see them in my decklist roundup on deckcheck, probably because I didn't know to look for TES running Ad Nauseam in there. It's obviously nothing intentional, and if you can point me to some winning lists, I'd be happy to mention them next time I talk about Ad Nauseam!

[TrialByFire]

I didn't see them in my decklist roundup on deckcheck, probably because I didn't know to look for TES running Ad Nauseam in there. It's obviously nothing intentional, and if you can point me to some winning lists, I'd be happy to mention them next time I talk about Ad Nauseam!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11621

[spirit of the wretch]

I got name-dropped, I like it =)

[BreathWeapon]

I definitely think Stefen Czolk is running close to optimal lists, cut the 61st card and debate the MD bounce slot, but that's more or less how Nauseam lists should look in my experience.

Solid article, much appreciated.

[Hanni]

Nice article, nothing too crazy or questionable, and it's doing exactly what it's intended to do: keeping people informed about Ad Nauseam in Legacy.


I definitely think Stefen Czolk is running close to optimal lists, cut the 61st card and debate the MD bounce slot, but that's more or less how Nauseam lists should look in my experience.

Which is my list, -1 land, +1 bounce spell (albeit my sideboard differs greatly). =]


I got name-dropped, I like it =)

Lucky you. =[

[spirit of the wretch]

About my 61 card list: I only played 60 cards (-1x Strand) but somehow the tournament organizer got this wrong (although my decklist was correct...). Beeing a math geek I never play more than 60 cards =)

[Forbiddian]

I know I'll be in the minority on this, but I was pretty bored with it. It seems like if you don't play TES (and esp. if you don't play Legacy) you'd be pretty bored with not being able to understand much (I think that the Unlocking Legacy articles should have some links in for non-Legacy players). Then if you keep up with TES, you'll be bored because you've heard the discussions before and this article just parrots.

Example from the article:


Abeyance is another White option, and it's interesting but slow. It's versatile in that it does shut down the Counterbalance/Top combination as well as all sorts of other malicious responses to your win, but generating seven mana is really rough. Currently, I haven't seen any decks going for Abeyance, even though it looks decently tempting alongside Mystical Tutor. The aforementioned Serenity has a lot of general utility to it if you can wait, as it will clear out anything Stax wants to throw at you. It's a niche card, but worth looking at if your metagame warrants it.

Abeyance: It would come in as Chant 5-8 since it's worse than Chant. You just discussed why it's worse than Chant. And the point about Countertop: It doesn't even remotely shut off Countertop. In response they can just tap the top to put a 1cc on top (or if it's mid-late game and they have more mana open, they can try to counter the abeyance by putting a two on top). Bam. Now good luck getting to 3BB without dark ritual (or they could put a land on top and wish you luck getting to 3BBB without 0cc and then good luck drawing ritual into tendrils). Especially impossible since it's so hard to get Threshold in the early game and by late game, they can just counter Abeyance.

Even if you draw the Abeyance "answer" to Countertop, you're still in the shitter. Not very good at "shut[ing] down the Counterbalance/Top combination."

Bottom line: Nobody plays Abeyance. Everyone agrees that it's bad. It's a lotus petal worse than Chant. I don't see any point in discussing it unless you can come up for a reason why you want more than 4 Chant effects. If you can think of one, it'd be really interesting, but since you couldn't, it seems like a waste to talk about it.

Serenity: Ok, you said the most obvious use for Serenity. Against Stax. Duh. But it has other uses. Affinity is not a tough matchup, but it's VERY common. Enchantress sees some play sometimes as well. Also, I would probably board it in against Countertop and Thorn of Amethyst and such. The only other answers to Countertop are easily counterable or they're wipe away, which obviously has weaknesses. That's probably where you'd want it, and not JUST as a Stax hoser.

And then the coup de grace of incomplete analysis: "worth looking at if your metagame warrants it." Is any card "not worth looking at if your meta game warrants it?"


In general, the discussion of cards seemed either wasteful (talking about cards everyone agrees are bad or good without giving any insight) or incomplete. For an article that just summarizes what other people are doing with an archetype and doesn't have to think of its own ideas: pretty bad.

I liked the version with Dark Confidant very much, and the analysis there was right on. I wish that the rest of the article had more like... discussable material. There are very radical decks like Etherium Sculptor + Sensei's Diving Top that have done well. I don't know if they're good, but mentioning decks like that would probably prompt some really interesting discussion.

[frogboy]

Bottom line: Nobody plays Abeyance. Everyone agrees that it's bad. I don't see any point in discussing it unless you can come up for a reason why you want more than 4 Chant effects. If you can think of one, it'd be really interesting, but since you couldn't, it seems like a waste to talk about it.

assuming you can resolve it with CB/Top in play, it shuts it down.

[Forbiddian]

@ Frogboy:

Ok, good, it shuts down Sensei's Divining Top for one turn, if you resolve it. It doesn't stop Counterbalance.

Note that you won't have time to sculpt a god hand, because if they can climb up the mana tree, they'll have enough to just counter the Abeyance and then counter everything else.

Ok. Now, how do you expect to win without being able to cast 0 mana spells (or without being able to cast 1 mana spells), using a hand you could sculpt in the first few turns of the game?

[hi-val]

Forbiddian, thanks for the feedback! I had planned my article arc as being a two-month feature where I'd discuss the deck and then come back the next month with results. Ergo, I talked about decks that had shown results. I'd like to write about Sculptor + Top, but I didn't see any results including that variant. I wrote the article with an audience in mind that keeps up with Legacy but doesn't have time or inclination to read lots of forums or website results. They know how the decks work but they might not have the lastest tech or proven results with it. You're right in that the complete n00b or ANT/TES master probably wouldn't find much from it, but the majority of readers seem to fall in between both poles.

If people can stand another article about this in a month, I was thinking of doing an experimental UBG Threshold v. ANT/TES and seeing if it's better to try to outrace or slowroll, possibly with Boseiju and Angel's Grace. That was the biggest unresolved question I had when I finished the article, and I think it's really valuable for people looking at the deck to know when they can or should slow things down, or if they can slow things down at all.

[TrialByFire]

If people can stand another article about this in a month, I was thinking of doing an experimental UBG Threshold v. ANT/TES and seeing if it's better to try to outrace or slowroll, possibly with Boseiju and Angel's Grace. That was the biggest unresolved question I had when I finished the article, and I think it's really valuable for people looking at the deck to know when they can or should slow things down, or if they can slow things down at all.

Do it. That absolutely sounds like something I would want to read. I really enjoy matchup analysis and detailed tourney reports.

[Hoojo]

Do it. That absolutely sounds like something I would want to read. I really enjoy matchup analysis and detailed tourney reports.

Yes. I really like the VS type articles.

[Forbiddian]

Forbiddian, thanks for the feedback! I had planned my article arc as being a two-month feature where I'd discuss the deck and then come back the next month with results. Ergo, I talked about decks that had shown results. I'd like to write about Sculptor + Top, but I didn't see any results including that variant. I wrote the article with an audience in mind that keeps up with Legacy but doesn't have time or inclination to read lots of forums or website results. They know how the decks work but they might not have the lastest tech or proven results with it. You're right in that the complete n00b or ANT/TES master probably wouldn't find much from it, but the majority of readers seem to fall in between both poles.

If people can stand another article about this in a month, I was thinking of doing an experimental UBG Threshold v. ANT/TES and seeing if it's better to try to outrace or slowroll, possibly with Boseiju and Angel's Grace. That was the biggest unresolved question I had when I finished the article, and I think it's really valuable for people looking at the deck to know when they can or should slow things down, or if they can slow things down at all.

Sorry that I sounded really harsh. I know everyone else liked your article, so I wanted you to get your fair share of underhanded criticism. If you're wondering about the Sculptor loop, I found http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20500. Not a huge tournament (50 people), but it at least held its own. Especially with that sideboard. Maybe you see something I'm not, but Gobwin Welder outside of Vintage? Coincidentally, it placed second to guess what? UGb Thresh!



UGb Thresh vs. TES in-depth analysis would be really interesting. UGb is getting a lot of attention lately. It certainly seems like a strong deck against AdNT, with the ability to pick apart TES or ride a Bob into more counters. At the same time, it doesn't have any lock pieces to prevent slow rolling, and it won't be able to knock even 10 damage into you until turn 4, giving you time to replace your early game losses and sculpt a new winning hand.

Sounds really interesting and it'll prompt a lot of discussion.

[Bardo]

If people can stand another article about this in a month, I was thinking of doing an experimental UBG Threshold v. ANT/TES and seeing if it's better to try to outrace or slowroll, possibly with Boseiju and Angel's Grace. That was the biggest unresolved question I had when I finished the article, and I think it's really valuable for people looking at the deck to know when they can or should slow things down, or if they can slow things down at all.

UBG Thresh vs. ANT is a good idea. Or ANT vs. 4c CT Thresh. I think those kinds of articles are best of both worlds: they're relevant to old-timers who probably have not done that exact testing and they give casual onlookers an actual look at the format (what do the decks looks like, how do games play out, etc.) Definitely, a win-win for all involved -- except you, who has to play the test games, record results, write the article and deal with the bullshit. :)

Anyway, good article. This one seemed written for the hard-core crowd, and that's fine. A third article on the deck wouldn't hurt. I wrote six fucking articles about Threshold and no one griped about that.

[Pinder]

I wrote six fucking articles about Threshold and no one griped about that.

And if you wrote another one, we'd probably still read it, too.

[Belgareth]

And if you wrote another one, we'd probably still read it, too.
I know I would, so please get started :wink:
This article was not bad, it wasn't brilliant but it kept me reading more than the opening paragraph even if it did feel lacking a bit.

[hi-val]

I thought we averted a Bardo lovefest on p1 and now we have it raging on p2. I'll give in. Dan, what did you think of Strawberry Jam? I got Person Pitch lately and I'm about halfway through listening to it, basically about the same as Animal Collective as a group. BTW, the AC Pandora station is pretty good...

[Bardo]

I thought we averted a Bardo lovefest on p1 and now we have it raging on p2. I'll give in. Dan, what did you think of Strawberry Jam? I got Person Pitch lately and I'm about halfway through listening to it, basically about the same as Animal Collective as a group. BTW, the AC Pandora station is pretty good...

Strawberry Jam is great. Solid album. This week I'm really digging Margot & The Nuclear So and So's Animal and Not Animal. Heartily endorsed.

[Fossil4182]

I ran something inspired by the Mateo list (96 person event) with Angel's Grace this weekend at a 2-Headed Giant event. Mostly because I didn't have a partner so I wanted something I knew could win on its own... Anyway, we ended up taking 3rd overall which was okay. The only deck we lost to was a combo deck that was faster than we were. I thought the deck ran fairly well and it is a little slower, however I liked the use of Angel's Grace and Mystical Tutors to set up the combo with protection. Good recommendations from the article if you want the contestant draw and resolution of the combo.

[jazzykat]

I thought we averted a Bardo lovefest on p1 and now we have it raging on p2.

It's hard for me not to have one, he wrote the only Legacy articles I would have paid for. If I remember correctly, his articles were written for legacy players having not only breath but depth of knowledge. Addressing nuances at times that separate winning from losing.

For example, I played a control deck on Saturday night in a field of Aggro to a 5-0 finish. I twice finished games at 1 life to win, if I was a better player perhaps I would have had more life, if I was worse I would have been dead. I enjoy discussion on the nuances of play.

Along those lines, I enjoyed Anwar's match coverage. My interest lies in breaking down complex lines of play and analyzing them for optimality.

Also, a good in depth article about chosing the right deck in a legacy metagame might not be bad either (at least I should have switched to combo...).

In short: Requesting more lines of play, and X vs. Y type articles.