[Discussion] Beating Jank?

[jazzykat]

Over in the DTB forum in the UGR Thresh thread an interesting question and points were made that got me thinking. It starts here and goes for the rest of the page.

Posts 1569-1574

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=295799&postcount=1569

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=295804&postcount=1570

(If a mod knows how to quote a block more elegantly then feel free to edit)

The gist is, "I have trouble in a jank meta with "non-legacy"" decks. This got me thinking about the metas I play in which are uber jank and which are in a way more difficult than playing against established decks where you know counterbalance works, and you know you have to have back up to play around card X or something. In the jank meta you just go for it and hope that they don't have an answer that you can't answer.

Do you guys think jank, Rogue, T2/Extended decks are tougher to play against especially if you just play Legacy and aren't as familiar with them?

How do you prepare for and beat the jank meta?


I usually play an aggro control deck Dreadstill right now, with a very agressive game plan.

[Afro]

Over in the DTB forum in the UGR Thresh thread an interesting question and points were made that got me thinking. It starts here and goes for the rest of the page.

Posts 1569-1574

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=295799&postcount=1569

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=295804&postcount=1570

(If a mod knows how to quote a block more elegantly then feel free to edit)

The gist is, "I have trouble in a jank meta with "non-legacy"" decks. This got me thinking about the metas I play in which are uber jank and which are in a way more difficult than playing against established decks where you know counterbalance works, and you know you have to have back up to play around card X or something. In the jank meta you just go for it and hope that they don't have an answer that you can't answer.

Do you guys think jank, Rogue, T2/Extended decks are tougher to play against especially if you just play Legacy and aren't as familiar with them?

How do you prepare for and beat the jank meta?


I usually play an aggro control deck Dreadstill right now, with a very aggressive game plan.

Some users on this board from Albany are in the same boat right now. There are about 4 of us with collections to play the power decks with duals, fetches, Goyfs, etc. However all the other people are playing decks like RDW with ports, Sui Black, Life Gain Clerics, Ext Elf Ball, etc. On any given day you can play against all power legacy, straight shit, or somewhere in the middle.

The easiest way to pwn is just run a combo deck in either Ichorid (P_R can attest to this) or Ad Nauseum. I myself right now am playing Dreadstill like yourself. A lot of random decks have trouble with 12/12 tramplers. I would NEVER suggest running Canadian Thrash in this type meta simply because a bunch of decks won't run Fetchlands which hurts your LD stall plan hard and some decks don't even run non basics at all which really pisses you off when you see it.

[Brad Herbig]

I agree that combo is probably the best way to beat the jank decks. You are often prepared for any sort of answer that would appear in good decks anyway, so generally anything they can throw at you, you can handle. I advise against playing Dragon Stompy against jank though. :tongue:

[Arsenal]

Most "jank" decks are aggro based (either pure aggro or some sort of aggro-control), so I run decks that can compete with aggro.

However, if your weekly player pool consists of all jank, then I would be careful running combo; you quickly lose people to play against if they know they're going to die on turn 1-2 with no player interaction.

[jazzykat]

Some users on this board from Albany are in the same boat right now. There are about 4 of us with collections to play the power decks with duals, fetches, Goyfs, etc. However all the other people are playing decks like RDW with ports, Sui Black, Life Gain Clerics, Ext Elf Ball, etc. On any given day you can play against all power legacy, straight shit, or somewhere in the middle.

The easiest way to pwn is just run a combo deck in either Ichorid (P_R can attest to this) or Ad Nauseum. I myself right now am playing Dreadstill like yourself. A lot of random decks have trouble with 12/12 tramplers. I would NEVER suggest running Canadian Thrash in this type meta simply because a bunch of decks won't run Fetchlands which hurts your LD stall plan hard and some decks don't even run non basics at all which really pisses you off when you see it.

Hey Afro, I wish I had played with you I am from Clermont right across the river from Coxsackie...anyway that does seem like the right move. Unfortunately, they are starting to acquire Krosan Grips :P

I think in the same way you wouldn't run Canadian Thrash, Team America seems like a suboptimal choice...wasteland and stifle against basics.dec aren't that useful

In a way, playing against a mixed field is actually tougher because your sideboard only stretches so much to accommodate your weaker match ups.

The reason I am getting so much mileage out of Dreadstill is that the stifles have a purpose beyond screwing with the opponent and I only play 3 wastes so I don't mind as much. However, the biggest reason is what you have already brought up in that a 12/12 trampler for 2 mana and 2 cards that can come down as early as turn 2 tends to cause just about any deck fits.

[rockout]

My favorite answer to jank is Humility. The "What the ... is that card... who plays that..."-factor is pretty strong when, in extended/standard decks, they have a lot of CIP effects and creatures with strong abilities. Also, RDW extended/standard version runs cards like flame javelin and tarfire. I'd be happy to play against overcosted, non-legacy burn spells than efficient lightning bolt, chain lightning, price of progress.

The question about not knowing a specific deck. I'd advise browsing the current PTQ/GP finals for extended and standard and you'll know 90% of their deck at the start.

[Mayk0l]

Ichorid is the one deck answer to anything. Except Maindeck Worship, lol, that one almost got me. I named Prodigal Sorceror with Cabal Therapy (Timmy is savage tech against Ichorid) and saw the Worship in his hand and a land to got with it, with three lands already in play. "Ehhh take the Worship as well thank you".
Jank will kick your butt harder than a Nought on crack if you don't look out, that, and it's humiliating.

[rufus]

...
How do you prepare for and beat the jank meta?
...

In competition, play decks with an aggressive game plan, and stay away from meta-game control elements such as Chalice, 3 Sphere, Thorn, Meddling Mage, and friends. In addition to pure combo, I'd expect that aggro and aggro/combo -- stuff like vial goblins, affinity, sligh and zoo -- will also do very well in a janky meta.

[Afro]

However, if your weekly player pool consists of all jank, then I would be careful running combo; you quickly lose people to play against if they know they're going to die on turn 1-2 with no player interaction.

I really can't stress this enough! I fear our meta is slowly turning to combo and we might lose a couple people who don't stand a chance on any given Friday. =(

@Jazzy - Always nice to see a Magic player around my neck of the woods. They are indeed rare!

[Shugyosha]

I think in the same way you wouldn't run Canadian Thrash, Team America seems like a suboptimal choice...wasteland and stifle against basics.dec aren't that useful

Canadian Thresh is actually quite good in a jank meta if the jank is aggro based or some "I will do something extremely cool by turn 8" deck. The deck is fast, packs 8 burn and Clasm in the sideboard. Snare is good against jank too, Daze is golden against people who play either careless or in fear of Daze.

The Wasteland/Stifle plan is good, too. Usually there will be some good legacy decks in the meta. You and these other decks should do well because of the meta, so you will have to beat good decks in later rounds.


Belcher is also quite fun in such metagames.
He: Mountain -> Raging Goblin -> attack
Me: ... -> Empty the Warrens for 12...

[Peter_Rotten]

Go with Ichordid. Just have a good SB plan. Watch out for random shit that bones you.

Ariok Champion? Umm... that' a lot of life you're gaining there, champ.

Turn one Megrim? Wow, Breakthrough doesn't look so hot anymore.

Rack? Grumble.

Wheel of Sun and Moon? Frown.

[jazzykat]

Is Epic Painter a good choice? It seems like it but I have never tested it.

[Rood]

Rifter beats on Jank decks pretty handedly too man...like aggro.
It can also hold it's own against control. If you see combo however, I wouldn't run it =P.

[Arsenal]

If I'm playing for real, in a tournament/ultra-competitive environment, and I know my competition is running lots of janky stuff, I'll run combo and smash face.

If I'm playing with the weekly crew, just casual Legacy stuff, I'll run something that is going to be competitive, but definitely slower and probably aggro or aggro-control. I don't care if I lose as it's just casual Legacy play, nothing is on the line, and I don't want to burn any bridges down the road.

[Balu]

What about "The Rock" ?
Pernicious Deed, disruption, removal and recurring fatties with livegain should shine in a "causal" (I don't like this word) meta...

[Eseph]

My decks of choice for random meta's were always Vial Goblins, or Burn. Both have strong aggressive plans, and can push through most anything. Burn especially when equipped with a couple boardsweepers can clear out just about anything (so long as you don't expect much in the way of highly competitive lists).

[Taurelin]

My favorite answer to jank is Humility.

That is a very good solution, as far as I can see. Spell Snare and stuff are useful vs popular meta-creatures like Goyf and Confidant, agreed. But Humility just makes all creatures rather irrelevant, so you needn't worry about those CiP abilities and combat interactions that much.

In this context, also Counterspell is better than Daze or Spell Snare (again). Daze and Snare answer cheap threats and are useful especially early in the game. Counterspell answers all threats at any time in the game. FoW helps too, obviously.

So, if many of you answered that aggressive Combo is the way to go, I wonder if dedicated bunker-control (Landstill, obviously) might also be a valid strategy.

[frogboy]

Do you guys think jank, Rogue, T2/Extended decks are tougher to play against especially if you just play Legacy and aren't as familiar with them?

No. Obviously Team America isn't really optimal if the other guy has six million basics, but you still have clock + disruption + permission, which is all you really need. Just play something that's powerful in the abstract.

You will destroy the meta with combo, but that might destroy your player base. My first inclination would be to play Tog again (omg <3 Tog) but people might get frustrated if you counter all their spells while resetting the board periodically. These people generally want to feel like they're interacting with their opponents. I'd probably play some random aggro deck like Goblins or something with all my favorite animals and Jitte. Or a Highlander deck.

If it's a combination of randoms and people who actually play Legacy I'd just play a real deck but avoid metagame decks and just focus on doing something broken.

[Mordel]

A deck like truffleshuffle seems like it would be a fucking beast in jank metas: haunting echoes, enough mass removal to choke a camel creatures that trade for basically everything and comeback over...and over...and over.

[dahcmai]

I have one of those uber Jank metas. The only trick is you would hit around 10 players with actual good decks and know how to play them so you have to survive the random burn, sligh, OMG 30 counterspells, and I play weird infinite combos first. We have like 30+ people each week.

The decks that seem to pull through that crap are usually the same. Anything that uses the graveyard like Thresh or Dredge are usually screwed because of the massive amount of grave hate. It's surprising, but it happens. Combo is hurt because of the mass counter decks and people playing Stax.

Oddly enough in the end Survival is usually one of the last (go figure) and something along the lines of Eva Green or Team America. I haven't tried it out, but I suspect that the Mighty Quinn would be a good one.

[Arsenal]

Yeah, you definitely don't want to turn people off from playing Legacy, even if it is just casual. You never know if 1-2 people turn from casual to serious. If you scare them off with turn 1 ANT combo, they will probably just go back to playing Standard/Extended and never look back. Favorite creatures + Jitte isn't a bad plan against random stuff.

[Phoenix Ignition]

What about "The Rock" ?
Pernicious Deed, disruption, removal and recurring fatties with livegain should shine in a "causal" (I don't like this word) meta...

Oh god... I got stomped by a deck playing kodama's reach with kokushos and Korlash... That was the end of me playing the rock in that meta.

[Eldariel]

While Faerie Stompy does well against jank most of the time, the fact that heavy midrange decks are coin tosses at best would probably have me play some variety of true control in a jank meta. I'm confident I'm a better player than just about anyone running jank and thus I want to play a deck where I have the tools to deal with anything, and the smallest possible chance of getting shut out by random stuff.

UWb Wishstill would be a solid choice, for example - isn't kold to anything and can dig out of the most annoying holes; also, plays Humility which as someone said is a gigantic beating on jank-decks. And yea, any of the more complex combo-decks can destroy metas of jank as long as those metas don't have too many aggro/control decks. I'd go with TES, AnT or Doomsday though, since Friggorid is somewhat easier to hate on - the midrange combo decks have the tools to actually outplay players with hate, while Ichorid tends to play the "Hope/Pray" game at that point (although of course, a good Ichorid-pilot can deal with more hate without actually having the answers than a poor one). This is relevant, since dominating a meta is going to garner massive amounts of hate, and unless one plans on switching the deck every few weeks, it tends to be efficient to play a deck that can deal with hate.

[xsockmonkeyx]

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/NE/en-us/Card21284.jpg

"You're tapping out to play what? :laugh: "

[Fossil4182]

The Rock or Truffle Shuffle would be a good call. Both are a little too slow for the current Legacy Meta, however you can build them using Legacy cards and they have a much more powerful mid-late game as opposed to Dreadstill or Threshold. I played with Rock for a while in a janky meta and it did fairly well. It has game against some of those decks designed to go late game because of the creature size and Deed. Plus your disruption is always going to be better than theirs.

As another option, since Standard decks and Janky decks like ummm Stasis (from personal experience) tend to develop two or three turns slower than Legacy is to play a more powerful deck with Legacy cards that develops at the same pace. So if you want to get creative, play some of the cards that ought to see play in Legacy, but that are just a turn or two too slow in the current environment.

[Forbiddian]

There's not any Magic trick to beating jank decks, it's just a different, slower, worse metagame. But you still can't expect to make a bad metagame decision like running 7 dead cards and expect to win. If you cut out a lot of your dead weight, your superior cards/experience should just pull you through. Rely on the fact that 3 land is a mana screw for them and just on statistics know that your deck is going to win 70-80% of the time from having superior cards and a superior mana base.

I wouldn't go to lengths like changing decklists entirely or running hate cards like Humility. This will weaken your MUs against competitive opponents against whom you need all your pistons firing.


I especially wouldn't switch to a deck like Ichorid. If you show up winning on turn 2-3, opponents will definitely spend the 18c to pick up a playset of Tormod's Crypts and crush you the next week. Or they'll get frustrated and quit Magic like other people said.

[TrialByFire]

I especially wouldn't switch to a deck like Ichorid. If you show up winning on turn 2-3, opponents will definitely spend the 18c to pick up a playset of Tormod's Crypts and crush you the next week. Or they'll get frustrated and quit Magic like other people said.

Any even slightly competent Ichorid player can beat Tormod's Crypt without batting an eye. Just for reference

[Forbiddian]

Any even slightly competent Ichorid player can beat Tormod's Crypt without batting an eye. Just for reference

Wow people are literal.

Try reading between the lines. Just for reference: hate in general. You don't want to be caught playing a deck that people will hate out of the store.

[rleader]

I know pox has a reputation for being a fanboy deck that no one serious takes seriously, but it's generally my favorite for taking into a random game: jank decks tend to think they're going to be able to play their cards and stick to a plan of some sort. They plan on a certain amount of things going right for them, even if their jitte gets countered or whatever. Pox means a critical mass of things go wrong for them.

The main problem with pox in competitive environments is that even though it's 90% disruption, it can't present a real clock (tombstalker is great, but it doesn't swing till it starts swinging) to deal with modern combo that can win through a wasteland-lock and multiple hymns. As such, it needs to dedicate almost all of its sideboard to shoring that up.

Of course, you'd never realize that if you read the pox threads here because most of the fans *only* ever play in MWS pickup games against jank and thus don't even know how vulnerable they are to many tier 1 decks. (And thus they make all kinds of aggressive alterations to the deck that lowers their chances versus good decks.)

OTOH, that DOES say something about how well the pox archetype does against jank that these people don't know any better.

[hugh1130]

mono black control is my goto casual stopper, dedicated control is a wining strategy against decks who main plan is to some dude with out disruption and hope to get there, but this seems to be comming out.

now you just have to hope that you dont run my savagely tech u/g jank enchantress

[wolfstorm]

I was running UGW Threshold with Stifle/Waste last week and lost to a deck that basically looked like old school Necro with the pump knights and black knights etc and lost because he only had swamps and swords was damn useless since everything had pro white.

[4eak]

How do you prepare for and beat the jank meta?

MUC.

It is the universal control deck, and in jank metagames, if you aren't using 1st or 2nd turn.dec, then playing MUC is a very good choice.

Combo probably has the best odds, but I've seen several weekly tournaments disappear because some of the players feel like they are playing against vintage decks (and they feel that something unfair has happened to them). I think MUC has less of a problem in this respect.

While many jank players may be frustrated against MUC (it has a reputation), at least they can be deceived into thinking their deck has a chance of actually winning. Easy money and you still have a good game against most of the competitive field.

Of course, you could always just play Stasis.dec!





peace,
4eak

[raharu]

As a collary to 4eak's statements on MUC, play 3 Shackles and 4 Propaganda in the main, obviously, and Powder Keg is golden here, despite what initial impressions may lead you to think.

[mercenarybdu]

So? People build them due to money issues. Even a six year old could do it and be successful at an event.

[Swing4Five]

What the hell were you even responding to? If you're going to make a statement at least make it somewhat comprehensible.

On topic: I would think something like Aggro Loam would also be able to pull it's weight in a Janky meta do to the objectively powerful engine /creatures it runs, not to mention sometimes you just plop a chalice and blow up all the opponent's lands, effectively not even letting them play Magic.

[Muradin]

I think the most important aspect in a undeveloped metagame is to play something that doesn't frustrate people. You should not kill them in the first three turns and countering every spell they cast won't make them happy either.
Still, there are many strong decks that will be very successful in a casual metagame, such as Aggro Loam.

The deck does nothing really frustrating to your opponent and they can interact with you very well. Of course you are going to crush them with Devastating Dreams, Tarmogoyf and Loam Advantage, but still they could play with you and see how good your deck was, while it didn't make the game boring for them.
This kind of loss might even grow a desire in them to possess such a good deck on their own and to start playing competitively as well, since you had nice games with them.

[klaus]

Just wanting to share my pain:
I got destroyed today by:
R1: Combo (not janky)
R2: Monoblack Zombies (:()
R3: R/U Aggro-Burn (T2)
R4: G/W random Aggro ;(

My bad though, I didn't tune my deck for an aggro meta, silly me!

[rockout]

I think the most important aspect in a undeveloped metagame is to play something that doesn't frustrate people. You should not kill them in the first three turns and countering every spell they cast won't make them happy either.
Still, there are many strong decks that will be very successful in a casual metagame, such as Aggro Loam.

The deck does nothing really frustrating to your opponent and they can interact with you very well. Of course you are going to crush them with Devastating Dreams, Tarmogoyf and Loam Advantage, but still they could play with you and see how good your deck was, while it didn't make the game boring for them.
This kind of loss might even grow a desire in them to possess such a good deck on their own and to start playing competitively as well, since you had nice games with them.

Screw that. Crush them into oblivion with recurring wasteland, port, goblins, dreadnaught, terravore, countryside crusher, empty the warrens for 10+ turn 1, tendrils with chant/duress protection turn 2-3, tendrils with no protection turn 1, force of will, daze, vedalken shackles. See, if you crush them they will either play better, more established decks, or leave the format. Seems win/win to me.

[scrumdogg]

Screw that. Crush them into oblivion with recurring wasteland, port, goblins, dreadnaught, terravore, countryside crusher, empty the warrens for 10+ turn 1, tendrils with chant/duress protection turn 2-3, tendrils with no protection turn 1, force of will, daze, vedalken shackles. See, if you crush them they will either play better, more established decks, or leave the format. Seems win/win to me.

I'm really hoping my sarcasm-meter is broken and this truly is a joking response. If it is joking, ha ha, nicely put. If, however, you are serious then we have a problem. That sort of attitude will kill a fledgling Legacy environment fast...and probably permanent. You WANT the uninitiated, the casual, the sub-optimal players and you want them to bring their friends...and you want them to have fun. These players may evolve into decent Legacy players but they will always allow things like sanctioning and they inflate the prize pool for the better players. They also tend to be good trades (especially if you aren't a jerk and rip people) as well as people to whom you can play in fun formats like EDH. Otherwise, you and your two legitimate Legacy compatriots will be sitting by yourselves in an empty tournament, well done. Now you get to go back to MWS and play all the drooling Intarweb Legacy Superstars (of Never Having Actually Played in a Live Tournament With People) like Clark Kant, Radley, Mercenarybdu, & Cavius. Have fun with that....:rolleyes:

[4eak]

You WANT the uninitiated, the casual, the sub-optimal players and you want them to bring their friends...and you want them to have fun.

One of the best ways of initiating newer players is help them become more familiar with the format outside of the vulnerable tournament setting where emotions run high and players feel like they have something at stake. Playing before the tournament with newer players, reviewing important rules about certain cards, or just sitting down to explore the inner workings of some of the decks you expect them to face, and letting them shuffle up against some good decks is relevant experience for them that lacks hostility, and it's fun without putting anything like their ego on the chopping block.

Of course, you'll have the 4ever-Johnny's who could not stand to part with Megrim.dec, but also somehow believe they deserve to remain competitive (an odd attitude). I don't feel so bad about playing hardball against them. Sometimes it takes a sledgehammer to teach a brickwall.



peace,
4eak

[Apex]

Yeah, seriously, you want people to actually like the format if you want to recruit more players into Legacy. I hope he was being sarcastic too.

I have an excellent example regarding this: When EDH was being introduced to our area, several older players (people that learned to play EDH some time ago) tried to get more people into it. Except, they had all the ridiculous decks, and the newer players never got a chance, and often felt they weren't even in the game, so EDH really didn't go anywhere beyond the first group of player. After I moved to my new place, and some players around me showed interest in EDH, I made sure that my deck wasn't the ridiculousness, and our EDH player base has grown quite fast. Now the players themselves are trying to actively figure out how to improve their own decks.

So yeah, what's the point of dream crushing people if one of the biggest goal for this format is trying to get more people into it?

[Gaius Darkfire]

I'm really hoping my sarcasm-meter is broken and this truly is a joking response. If it is joking, ha ha, nicely put. If, however, you are serious then we have a problem. That sort of attitude will kill a fledgling Legacy environment fast...and probably permanent. You WANT the uninitiated, the casual, the sub-optimal players and you want them to bring their friends...and you want them to have fun. These players may evolve into decent Legacy players but they will always allow things like sanctioning and they inflate the prize pool for the better players. They also tend to be good trades (especially if you aren't a jerk and rip people) as well as people to whom you can play in fun formats like EDH. Otherwise, you and your two legitimate Legacy compatriots will be sitting by yourselves in an empty tournament, well done.

Indeed, that happened at my store for both Standard FNM's and for Type 1 tournaments. The Type 1 events had been run for years, but after a few people built real decks and consistently won, it slowly began to die off once new people stopped joining us. Similarly, our Type 2 FNM's had the same problem, leading us to only doing drafts for FNM for the last year.

It is fine to play competitively in a field of mostly new people, but the most important thing is to make sure the newer players have fun and feel like they have a chance, ultimately so that they consistently return. They will get better as they experience the format more, leading to a more developed and competitive environment, but you have to get them there first.

[Captain_Morgan]

We had this one guy that netdecked weekly to "win," so to be shakey we'd just change to various silly formats like highlander that he'd avoid. He'd come in, look at the schedule, then leave. Then the guy that headed it would just put up the "real" schedule.

It was nice to not see him for near 3 months. I don't think he ever caught on. However, after a while a lot of people just hated out whatever deck he'd bring to the tournament (basically whatever topped the week or month before). But, this was after the players matured a bit.

[Forbiddian]

I'm really hoping my sarcasm-meter is broken.

Apparently, you don't have a sarcasm-meter.

[Mordel]

When I was a lot younger(before fnm having to be standard or limited) the area that I lived in was 100% vintage, though it was more like legacy. I had moved from an area that was in the lower mainland(Vancouver BC area) and had a huge competitive scene. I wasn't and am not a pro by any means, but I played a lot at playing at a higher level than lots of the people where I moved and I made friends with lots of the guys that played janky garbage and after playing magic with them over the year or so and talking about cards CONSTANTLY(like all we did besides smoking pot) a lot of these guys became really, really sharp players.

Within about a year or so, things went from me dominating local tournies to all of my new buddies kicking my ass in the finals. Subtly tutoring people on how to play better magic is taxing as hell though.

There were two shops in town and one was the janky scrub shop with a proprietor that claimed to be a judge, even though he strongly asserted and inforced that hatred was banned for over three years and the other was the competitive shop where the owner/judge(who actually used his computer for rulings) didn't play in weekly tournies on Sundays. Either way, my buddies and I would go to the scrub gallery when we really, really wanted the fnm foils. The funny thing is about the scrub gallery shop is that lots of the players came to the competitive shop and there are next to no people that play there anymore except for a few harsh timmies and they are like lolicon-watching smelly, unkempt creepers. Lots of the guys that play at the competitive place are strictly casual and make janky decks, but know how to play something fierce even though they make decks to be rogue and have fun. It was sort of surreal when we went to the super-casual place to play though because in between rounds and stuff my buddies and I would talk about the more recent ptq that we went to and competitive stuff and some of the really casual guys would hang out with us and listen in and ask questions every so often and the next week, we'd see them at the other place and lots of them are filling the finals at fnm's there with casual decks and going to ptq's with net decks/tuned-up homebrews and doing decent.

I'm not very fond of the assumption that some folks seem to make about casual players always being scrubs and so forth.

[undone]

To win, take ANT. To win in a fair manner take 4C threshold or UGW thresh both with counter top. Swords is always good and you have decent answers to everything. Decks in order if

You want to be an ass:
AnT
Solidaridy (OH THE FUN IN RANDOM METAGAMES)
Ichorid
Beltcher
TES

If you want real games:

UGW, UGB or UGbw counter top thresh
4 C landstill/Cunning still
Dreadstill
Goyf sligh with FoD
Sui black
Hanni fish with MD jitti

[Jonika]

Im wondering how countertop will beat jank meta's. MOst janky decks dont have such a low curve like most legacy decks do. Just my thoughts

[Arsenal]

Im wondering how countertop will beat jank meta's. MOst janky decks dont have such a low curve like most legacy decks do. Just my thoughts

It won't. Most janky metas are aggro-based, and you'll see LOTS of 3-5cc stuff. I wouldn't run CounterTop in an undeveloped meta; too much risk, not enough reward.

[Citrus-God]

I started playing Legacy in a undeveloped metagame that was mixed with competitive decks and casual decks. The newer players grew as they kept playing in that metagame. I got to see masterful sideboarding skills from a kid who started out playing Suicide Black and still played Suicide Black, I got to see The Rock fight against GW Aggro and watch the Rock fall because the GW Aggro deck boarded in 4 Troll Ascetics to protect itself from Pernicious Deeds, and I got to see players learn how to reason why building decks and make bad decks like RG Beatz competitive in a Landstill and Solidarity heavy metagame. What I'm trying to say is that the good magic players, regardless whether you're a competitive or casual player, is that they're able to rationalize, realize, make good plays, and think at a competitive level.

These casual or newer players played better because they frequently talked to better players and asked what mistakes they made after the game and such.

[Jonika]

It won't. Most janky metas are aggro-based, and you'll see LOTS of 3-5cc stuff. I wouldn't run CounterTop in an undeveloped meta; too much risk, not enough reward.

Exactly my point and i was replying to the poster above who suggested some UGx counter top threshold, which IMO would clearly suck in a janky meta. Stifle, spell snare, wasteland, and counterbalance all lose their usefullness...

[Mordel]

Don't forget chalice. Chalice sucks when you have no idea what the hell you are playing against and they run random powerful, but not popular cards.

[Taurelin]

Again I would like to raise the question: What about serious control? Are "jank" decks prepared to deal with Humility/Moat or to escape a ScepterChant lock?

[Mordel]

Humility/Moat is going to need to be protected properly with hard counters etc and a scepter lock is probably going to be gg with no questions asked.

What I don't get is all of the specific questions being asked. Jank metagames have been discussed and revealed to be completely random a lot of the time and that is why they are so troublesome for random decks. Why bother to ask if...I don't know...choke is good? Who the hell knows, the matagame is composed of random decks with unconventional cards.

As far as I am concerned a deck with the broadest cards and most straight-forward strategy will do well.

This includes stuff like draw-go with force spike instead of spell snare and disks instead of main deck b2b, solidarity or another consistent combo or good old goblins. I think a straightforward deck with cards that do not depend on your opponent playing a specific archetype/strategy/card type are the most effective at doing well in a random metagame of unconventional non-serious decks/players. Even then it is difficult to try to really give any specifics.

What I used to do to prevent myself from getting emberassed by losing at some random place's games shop in a town I was visiting would be to bullshit with the shop owner or (a) local player(s) and get an idea of what it's like there. In most the few situations that I chose a more narrow deck things turned out poorly for me when I lost to a random r/b ld deck that ran dauthi mindrippers, but the other 99% of the time when I chose a broad dek with broad cards and/or a clear strategy(aka combo or draw-go) I would completely annihilate all the locals.