Mistake leading to Game State Error

[AngryTroll]

Alright, my opponent has a Samurai of the Pale Curtain in play.

I have a Gamekeeper in play, and sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy. I mill for a while, hit another Gamekeeper with some more Therapies in the yard, end up shredding his entire hand, get everything I want in my graveyard, do some more sacrificing and milling, and eventually find the Salvagers.

My opponent finally realizes that the first Gamekeeper should not have gone to the yard from play; now what?

I am pretty sure we both get Warnings. Now what? Do I get a Game Loss? Do I keep the Salvager?

I think that I shouldn't get a game loss, because a sneaky opponent could let me do this on purpose (knowing about the Samurai) to make me lose the game. On the other hand, I could be pretending that I just forgot about the Samurai.

Assuming that both of us are playing honestly, and simply made a mistake, what happens? I know that if either of us are cheating on purpose, it's at least a game loss.

So now what?

[Forbiddian]

My opponent finally realizes that the first Gamekeeper should not have gone to the yard from play; now what?


You're likely to get cheating-fraud. Your opponent would probably get a warning for not catching it sooner. The way you worded it SOUNDS like you attempted to cheat ("my opponent finally caught on..."). Stuff like that is very suspicious. You can't just cheat and hope your opponent doesn't catch on.


If neither player is cheating on purpose, it's a gameplay error - game rule violation for you and a gameplay error - failure to maintain game state for your opponent.

You do not go back and change anything. If the Salvagers are already in play, they stay in play. At the judge's discretion.

"If the error was discovered within a time frame in which a player could reasonably be expected to notice the error and the situation is simple enough to safely back up without too much disruption to the course of the game, the judge may get permission from the Head Judge to back up the game to the point of the error. Each action taken is undone until the game reaches the point immediately prior to the error. Drawn cards whose identity is known to all players are reversed by returning them to the top of the library; all other drawn cards are reversed by placing a random card on top of the library. Once the game is backed up, it continues from that point.

If not caught within a reasonable time frame, or backing up is impossible or sufficiently complex that it could affect the course of the game, the judge should leave the game state as it is and not attempt any form of partial ‘fix’ – either reverse all actions or none. Additionally, teammates and opponents who might potentially have benefited from the error receive a Game Play Error — Failure to Maintain Game State penalty."

The backup is far too complicated to go back to the start. A head judge might back up the game to the LAST resolution of the Gamekeeper ability (reshuffling the creature and the rest of the cards placed into the graveyard on that resolution back in and removing the Gamekeeper from the game, undoing the trigger).


The justification for this is that the previous actions used Cabal Therapies which were only in the yard after the Gamekeeper's first ability resolved. Backing up to before Cabal Therapy was resolved would undo a branching decision tree, which is very difficult. If your opponent notices the instant that Salvager is put into play, it would probably be possible to back up to that point.

If you made plays off of the Salvager, then it's unlikely that anybody could restore the game state and the judge would leave things.


When fixing errors, the timing is critically important.

[cdr]

I don't have time to compose a full reply, but you only get a Cheating penalty if you're actually cheating.

[AngryTroll]

As I said, I understand that if either player is purposefully cheating, they get a game loss and probably further sanctions against them.

However, the way it happened, neither one of us remembered that the Samurai was awesome to have in play at this moment; he was the one that figured it out when he went to scoop up all of his cards.

Now I realize that I should concede at this point if we cannot back up to the mistake, but I am curious about what would actually happen.

It sounds like if both players made an honest mistake, the Salvagers remains in play and we both get some sort of warning. If the judge feels that either of us were cheating (either me by ignoring the Samurai, or my opponent by not mentioning the Samurai on purpose until I had begun dredging to try to give me game loss), it is within his power to rule that that player is cheating and they lose. At Magic, not just our game.


Similarly, if my opponent has a True Believer (darn Death and Taxes creatures) or a Chalice for 1, and I Thoughtseize him and neither one of us realizes that this is illegal, things get complicated; this is another one where the timing seems important. What happens at each step of the way if one of us realizes that the Thoughtseize was illegal?
Before revealing: no big deal
After revealing hand, before choosing card: ?
After Thougthseize finishes resolving: ?
After next spell or two are played: ?
A turn or two later: Warnings for both players, no further action?

[Forbiddian]

As I said, I understand that if either player is purposefully cheating, they get a game loss and probably further sanctions against them.

Actually, it's a DQNR at any REL. But yeah, note that you don't actually have to be cheating, the judge just has to believe that you're cheating. Don't do anything suspicious (something like, "My opponent didn't even notice..." sounds quite suspicious). Most people would say, "I didn't notice..." or "We didn't notice."



Similarly, if my opponent has a True Believer (darn Death and Taxes creatures) or a Chalice for 1, and I Thoughtseize him and neither one of us realizes that this is illegal, things get complicated; this is another one where the timing seems important. What happens at each step of the way if one of us realizes that the Thoughtseize was illegal?
Before revealing: no big deal
After revealing hand, before choosing card: ?
After Thougthseize finishes resolving: ?
After next spell or two are played: ?
A turn or two later: Warnings for both players, no further action?

Easy: Before revealing hand, it's countered and life total goes back up.

After revealing hand before choosing a card: Easiest is probably to assume that the opponent revealed the cards on accident. No cautions or warnings.

After a card is discarded: Warning to the person casting Thoughtseize. Don't back up (it's a Missed Trigger violation which is handled by different rules than a Game Rule Violation).

Note that these are wrong/misleading; see Anusien's post.

EDIT: Oops, didn't notice the True Believer thing. My post only applies to Chalice of the Void at 1 (and my advice is correct for Chalice of the Void, for True Believer, you would likely try to back up to before Thoughtseize was played unless a full turn cycle has elapsed before players noticed the error).



it's a Warning for Game Rules Violation to the Thoughtseize player and a Warning for Failure to Maintain Game State for the player being Thoughtseized. Then reverse as in #1.

That is INCORRECT. To quote the rules on FTMGS: "This infraction is committed by a player who has allowed another player in the game to commit a Game Play Error and has not pointed it out it before he or she could potentially gain advantage."

You have to potentially gain an advantage by not pointing out the gamestate. If this is intentional, it's Fraud (DQNR). If it's unintentional and you would gain benefit from pointing out the error and no benefit from not pointing out the error (such as: You just revealed your hand to your opponent, which clearly does not benefit you), then no warning is issued. Issuing a warning in this case goes against both the philosophy and letter of the rule.

If it's possible that you gain a benefit, even if it's slim (like in the Gamekeeper case, you see part of their library), then you get a warning for FTMGS. The point of FTMGS warnings is mainly to track potential cheaters. People who establish a pattern of not pointing out gameplay errors when it's beneficial to them might require further inspection from judges to see if they are indeed cheating.

[Arctic_Slicer]

That story reminds me of a mistake I made a couple of years ago. I was playing in my local 2006 state champs tournament (Standard: with Ravnica, Guildpact, Dissention, Coldsnap, Timespiral, and 9th edition) I was playing mono blue snow control and I had a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir in play and on my opponents turn he played Wrath of God so I cast Remand in response and then casts remand in response to my remand and like an idiot I say, "okay" and let it resolve. What's even worse is that this happened in the first round of the tournament but I didn't ever realize I made this mistake until round 3. The tournament started at like 10AM so it was early and I got home from work at like 1AM so I was pretty tired but even so I still too this day cannot believe I made such an obvious mistake. This happened in game two after I had one game one and if I didn't make that mistake I would have been able to flash in my Rimefeather Owl a couple of turns latter and and win the game and the match instead of losing the game and running out of time in game 3 and ending up with a draw.

Lesson of the day: don't play in magic tournaments when you haven't had enough sleep.

[Anusien]

Flaming removed and clarified.


Easy: Before revealing hand, it's countered and life total goes back up.
For True Believer, it's a totally illegal play and would be reversed. It's NOT countered; instead, untap lands used to pay for it and return the card to your hand.


After revealing hand before choosing a card: Easiest is probably to assume that the opponent revealed the cards on accident. No cautions or warnings.
For True Believer, it's a Warning for Game Rules Violation to the Thoughtseize player and a Warning for Failure to Maintain Game State for the player being Thoughtseized. Then reverse as in #1.


After a card is discarded: Warning to the person casting Thoughtseize. Don't back up (it's a Missed Trigger violation which is handled by different rules than a Game Rule Violation).
For True Believer, there's no trigger here, so it can't be missed trigger. It depends when we catch it. If we catch it immediately after, the Head Judge is probably going to be okay with reversing the entire sequence of actions to before the Thoughtseize was played (so Thoughtseize and discarded card to hand, untap the land, +2 life). Same Warnings as in #2.


The backup is far too complicated to go back to the start. A head judge might back up the game to the LAST resolution of the Gamekeeper ability (reshuffling the creature and the rest of the cards placed into the graveyard on that resolution back in and removing the Gamekeeper from the game, undoing the trigger).
You don't backup partially, it's all or nothing.

I'd like to reiterate my statement from previous threads, if you don't know for sure, please don't post. Look at what cdr- did; it's okay to only post part of the answer (and is preferred to a diatribe of hearsay and scandal).

On the Gamekeeper situation; I feel like most Head Judges would choose not to back up (but I'm asking some judges for confirmation, more on that later). It also depends, as Forbiddian notes, depending on whether the first Cabal Therapy has resolved, whether other ones have been played, whether other things have happened because of whatever creature was put into play. Each threshold we pass makes it far less likely for the HJ to want to back up. If you do back up, the entire sequence is reversed to the first legal spot, which would be sacrificing Gamekeeper to Cabal Therapy. The Gamekeeper would be RFG instead of sacrificed, and then the Therapy could resolve (since it hasn't yet).


Now I realize that I should concede at this point if we cannot back up to the mistake, but I am curious about what would actually happen.

It sounds like if both players made an honest mistake, the Salvagers remains in play and we both get some sort of warning. If the judge feels that either of us were cheating (either me by ignoring the Samurai, or my opponent by not mentioning the Samurai on purpose until I had begun dredging to try to give me game loss), it is within his power to rule that that player is cheating and they lose. At Magic, not just our game.
There's no obligation on either player to concede here. That said, if you were Cheating (which we assume neither player was for the sake of explanation; the Cheating situations are rarely interesting) it's a Disqualification. If not, the player with the Gamekeeper gets a Warning for Game Play Error: Game Rules Violation and the other player gets a Failure to Maintain Game State Warning. The situation may be backed up as above per discretion of the Head Judge. Then play continues.


Edit: In talking with some other judges, as long as you haven't actually gone off with Salvagers drawing cards, many Head Judges would choose to back up.

[etrigan]

Wrong. It's a totally illegal play and would be reversed. It's NOT countered; instead, untap lands used to pay for it and return the card to your hand.


It's countered if Chalice @ 1 is in play.

If True Believer is in play, you would back it up because the opponent is not a legal target. (That Thoughtseize says "target player". and not "target opponent" has no effect here, correct?)

[KrzyMoose]

It's countered if Chalice @ 1 is in play.

If True Believer is in play, you would back it up because the opponent is not a legal target. (That Thoughtseize says "target player". and not "target opponent" has no effect here, correct?)


If your opponent has a True Believer in play, would you really back up if you attempt to Thoughtseize your opponent? Even though he/she is not a legal target, YOU are. Are you forced to target yourself? Or do you actually back up?

The reason I ask was because back when Solidarity was kinda big, I had a judge rule that if you try to Brainfreeze your opponent while he had True Believer out, you have to target yourself. (This actually happened in a sanctioned tournament).

So, I'm curious as to what the real answer is.

[cdr]

If True Believer is in play, you would back it up because the opponent is not a legal target. (That Thoughtseize says "target player". and not "target opponent" has no effect here, correct?)

There is no difference - what matters is that you targeted an illegal target when you played the spell.


If your opponent has a True Believer in play, would you really back up if you attempt to Thoughtseize your opponent? Even though he/she is not a legal target, YOU are. Are you forced to target yourself? Or do you actually back up?

Yes, you would back up. You are not forced to choose a legal target - that is completely incorrect. When you attempt to play a spell or ability targeting an illegal target, the spell or ability is reversed to the point before you started to play it.


The reason I ask was because back when Solidarity was kinda big, I had a judge rule that if you try to Brainfreeze your opponent while he had True Believer out, you have to target yourself. (This actually happened in a sanctioned tournament).

So, I'm curious as to what the real answer is.

That ruling was incorrect. The Brain Freeze would be reversed.

Nor are you forced to change the target of the Storm copies to yourself if your opponent becomes an illegal target before the Storm trigger resolves, since Storm's target-changing is a may.


Brain Freeze 1U
Instant
Target player puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Storm


Storm: Storm is a triggered ability that functions on the stack. "Storm" means "When you play this spell, put a copy of it onto the stack for each other spell that was played before it this turn. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any of the copies." See rule 502.30, "Storm."