Judge Ruling

[rockout]

I wanted to see what a judge would rule from the terrible play mistake I made today. I guess it wasn't as bad as being told that propaganda works on both players a few months ago, but just as a dumb nonetheless.

I play Brainstorm. It resolves. I put my hand face-down on the table and draw three cards from brainstorm. I put all three cards I draw off Brainstorm back on the top of my library and pick up my hand again. Then I realize, what did I just do, where is the card I drew off brainstorm? My question is: does putting cards back on the top of your library mean that you are done with Brainstorm. I know Brainstorm doesn't let me put three cards back on the top of my library. I'm pretty sure I didn't get past the part of completely finishing resolving Brainstorm. I want to know what a judge would say to me since I wanted to call one over because I knew I made an error and I wanted to proceed correctly, but I told my opponent what I did and he counted out the cards in my hand, cards in play, cards in graveyard, counted out the turns and said I think you have the right amount of cards so just draw the three off Brainstorm and finish the spell. Besides being called a retard by a judge, what is the best way to proceed in that situation?

[cdr]

If the cards from the Brainstorm have never touched the cards in your hand, you have not drawn them yet.

I don't even see an infraction here - just a "quit being retarded".

[rockout]

That's what I thought. Yes, I was being retarded. I proceeded to savagely lost the game anyway. Thanks cdr.

[Forbiddian]

"Card Drawing — Looking at Extra Cards
Definition
Players are considered to have looked at a card when they have been able to observe the face of a hidden card, or when a card is moved any significant amount from a deck, but before it touches the other cards in their hand. This includes errors of dexterity or catching a play error before the card is placed into his or her hand. Once a card has been placed into his or her hand or if a player takes a game action after removing the card from the library, the penalty is Card Drawing — Drawing Extra Cards.

A player is not considered to have looked at extra cards when he or she places a card face down on the table (without looking at the card) in an effort to count out cards he or she will draw.

This penalty is applied only once if one or more cards are seen in the same action or sequence of actions.


Regular Competitive Professional
Caution Warning Warning

"

Caution, if that. There are players who will look at the top cards off of a brainstorm or top (especially top) and then give it the ole' five finger discount to move the fourth card to third place to try to dig for more material. So the DCI wants to check for patterns of behavior.

[Anusien]

This doesn't sound like Looking at Extra Cards, since they were entitled to look at those cards anyway. Plus, Cautions are only tracked within the boundaries of the current tournament.

By the way, you are concerned that putting the cards on top of the library signifies the end of Brainstorm. To be doubly clear, don't put spells into the graveyard until they are finished resolving. If you make a habit of this, it's easy to be clear. But it is irrelevant in this case. Agree with cdr-.

[cdr]

To echo Anusien, it can't be Looking at Extra Cards - he was supposed to see those three cards.

When assessing a situation, the very first thing you do is determine what infraction it is, if any. You do not try and find a category to stuff it in because you think it should be an infraction. Things will go wrong that don't fit any category in the PG, and therefore are not infractions.

Also note that Cautions are not tracked.

This situation best fits under Game Play Error - Incorrect Representation, if any. Nothing ambiguous or ultimately illegal occurred. Incorrect Representation is the infraction that's not an infraction - fix the incorrect representation and give a verbal caution.



Caution, if that. There are players who will look at the top cards off of a brainstorm or top (especially top) and then give it the ole' five finger discount to move the fourth card to third place to try to dig for more material. So the DCI wants to check for patterns of behavior.

[Forbiddian]

Well, you're not allowed to move cards off of your library and then put them back, even if you're supposed to draw those cards. Imagine a situation where players did that every time. Ancestral Recall? No, I'd rather look at one card, put it back, look at two cards, put them back, look at three cards, put them back, then draw two cards, then draw one more card. It's very confusing and the potential for cheating is enormous, even if you ended up circuitously performing the legal actions without gaining any extra information.

An infraction did indeed take place, and there's a potential for cheating with anything involving moving cards from the library to a place that is not the library. Although this was just a mistake, it's part of the responsibility of the judges to look for patterns of behavior and potentially upgrade them to tracked warnings. Even if you don't know what the ruling is, it's implied by something like, "quit being retarded" that you issued a caution. If the player repeated the SAME offense the next game, you'd be likely to issue a warning (upgrading the caution). For this not to be an offense, a player would have to be able to perform the same action dozens of times during the same tournament without ever being issued a warning.

In this case, I think that a repeat offense would almost guarantee getting a warning (hence the first offense was an informal caution).


Justification for Looking at Extra cards:If you activate a Sensei's Divining Top and look at the top three cards of your library, you're not allowed to look at those cards again at a later time, even if you "Just wanted to verify that I put the right card on top." That's why tournament players make a note of their Top or Brainstorm information. Players who look twice are penalized by "Looking at Extra Cards." I think this is the same situation, just in reverse. He's supposed to know what the cards are later (instead of supposed to know before).

[yggdrasil]

Well, you're not allowed to move cards off of your library and then put them back and then draw them again (as per the text on Brainstorm).

No. But it's normally allowed as it's a fairly common shortcut. If you repeat making errors while using this shortcut, the judge will very likely disallow further use of it.



Even if you don't know what the ruling is, it's implied by something like, "quit being retarded" that you issued a caution. If the player repeated the SAME offense the next game, you'd be likely to issue a warning (upgraded the caution).

No. As being said already: just because you think something should be penalized doesn't mean that it's really an infraction. Either you can point to a Infaction in the PG and say "see, this matches what happend, so I'll apply its penalty to the players" or you can't penalize it. If a judge thinks that a certain behaviour shouldn't happen, he'll tell you to stop. THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS GIVING OUT A CAUTION! What will happen if you keep repeating is you will get penalized, but now for something that actually is in the PG: Unsporting Conduct - Major for failing to follow a direct instruction.



Justification for Looking at Extra cards:If you activate a Sensei's Divining Top and look at the top three cards of your library, you're not allowed to look at those cards again at a later time, even if you "Just wanted to verify that I put the right card on top." That's why tournament players make a note of their Top or Brainstorm information. Players who look twice are penalized by "Looking at Extra Cards."
This is different. The Brainstorm player is allowed to see the the cards at the moment when he looked at them, so this cannot possibly be L@EC.

[Anusien]

Not every action that has a potential for cheating is infraction worthy. For instance, mana weaving.

P.S.,

Justification for Looking at Extra cards:If you activate a Sensei's Divining Top and look at the top three cards of your library, you're not allowed to look at those cards again at a later time, even if you "Just wanted to verify that I put the right card on top." That's why tournament players make a note of their Top or Brainstorm information. Players who look twice are penalized by "Looking at Extra Cards." I think this is the same situation, just in reverse. He's supposed to know what the cards are later (instead of supposed to know before).

[22:08] <Leecifer> In general, I'm generally a fan of allowing players to take back something if they immediatly correct themselves.
This isn't in the context of an [O]fficial answer from Lee, but it's worth noting that the foundation you're building your position on is quite shaky, Forbiddian.

Also, it can't be Looking at Extra Cards because the Brainstorm hasn't finished resolving.

Well, you're not allowed to move cards off of your library and then put them back, even if you're supposed to draw those cards. Imagine a situation where players did that every time. Ancestral Recall? No, I'd rather look at one card, put it back, look at two cards, put them back, look at three cards, put them back, then draw two cards, then draw one more card. It's very confusing and the potential for cheating is enormous, even if you ended up circuitously performing the legal actions without gaining any extra information.
Nothing in that is illegal, although I'd be very questionable why they did it that way.