Help me win this.

[klaus]

Alright fellas,
lately I've been bugging you with that stupid Legacy fun format crap of mine.
This one's some sort of "Legacy variant puzzle", too BUT with a purpose:
Our local store will hold a tournament in December, the format of choice will be Legacy with the following modification: "Cumulative Mana"

This means everything remains the same BUT at the beginning of each of your 1st main phases you'll get a combination of colored mana (of your choice) equal to the number of the current turn (turn1=1, turn=2 etc..). Players don't get mana burn.

Here's the deal: I wanna win this but NOT play combo.
I expect a max of 18 players.
40% semi-fun deck
15% combo
45% adjusted proved archeypes.

My card pool comprises:
Landstill
Fish
Dead Guy
Eva Green
TA
Stax
Dragon Stompy
Dreadstill
Thresh
Pox
ITF

I'll post my first few attamps soonish. It'd be cool though to get some spontaneous feedback first. So fire away!
And thx in advance,
Klaus.

[rockout]

Mindlsaver lock with Academy Ruins and Intuition to search. You get free mana each turn, then you should be able to start the lock quickly. Wrath, Elspeth, Decree, the counter suite... Good luck sounds fun.

[Illissius]

Ok... first of all, this format is going to be approximately twice as fast as normal Legacy. Second, free mana of any color means you could play a fuckton of colorless utility lands and still play a 5C deck, if you want. (You could go without lands, but then you'd be half as fast as the other decks. Bad idea.) Third, mana denial is shit -- which is something like half the decks in your card pool. Fourth, instants (especially expensive ones) are going to be downplayed, given that you only get the extra mana during your own main phase.

As a first guess, mass discard sounds like a good mechanic. Infinite mana doesn't do much without something to spend it on. (Or other ways to achieve a similar thing, I dunno -- Scepter-Chant? In general, I'm not sure whether lots of card drawing plus (relatively) less expensive spells or less draw with more expensive spells is the better way to make use of your mana (but I'd guess it's the former). Also, I'm pretty sure you still want Force of Will, because combo could get pretty ridiculous. If you give Legacy combo decks a free Lotus Petal, that'll make them kill on turn one a hell of a fucking lot, and by turn two always. Given you'll have two mana on your first turn if you go first, that means Merchant Scroll could also fetch Force of Will right away. Hell, in this format, Burn could win by turn two, and Force isn't so awesome against them, so I dunno. (Landless Ichorid could also be interesting, so don't forget to sideboard the graveyard hate.)

With the free colored mana plus ability to play endless manlands and/or :2: lands, maybe you could do something with Polymorph. I dunno.

That's all I have for now.

[Nihil Credo]

Faerie Stompy appears to be a great choice. You get plenty of ways to spend the extra mana, Force of Will to stop brokenness, and Chalice for some non-mana-based disruption. You could probably play a current list with almost no adjustments.

As a secondary choice, I'd consider NQS or Intuition Thresh - either way, a Counterbalance Threshold deck with a built-in mana-intensive CA engine. You can play it 5C, since the free mana will remove colour screw problems. Daze is going to get weaker much faster than it does in regular Legacy, though.

This sounds weird, but manaless Ichorid might also looks interesting - actually almost manaless, since you want the 4 Cephalid Coliseum anyway. Flashbacking DA without problems, and pinpoint discard outlets (ie Tribe) that are as fast as LED are cute, but the best thing is probably the added consistency from running 8-9 extra business spells.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

To clarify; you get this mana in addition to mana you would get from lands, etc?

[Swing4Five]

I would <3 playing Survival in this.

[Illissius]

I don't think Chalice would be very good. I'd expect mana costs to be pretty varied (with an emphasis on the even totals), not the glut of one mana spells you see in Legacy. Though maybe that ends up getting replaced with a glut of two mana spells, I dunno. Similarly Countertop could also be less strong, though turn one Counterbalance and extra mana to cast spells while you operate it do sound fine enough -- but everything sounds broken when you have twice the mana to do it with, which is the difficulty here.

Of course, this is assuming people won't just play their Legacy decks with one mana spells, which isn't necessarily a fair assumption.

[Di]

Demigod of Revenge would totally give me a boner in this format. That's be lots of fun. You wouldn't even need black sources in the deck lol.

[Julian23]

Would Stasis be "too combo" for your taste?

[klaus]

To clarify; you get this mana in addition to mana you would get from lands, etc?
Yes.

Would Stasis be "too combo" for your taste?
Sry. Don't own the cards.
-
@DI:
Hellz yeah! Intuition Demigod sounds like a blast, indeed.
-
@Illissius & Nihil Credo:
Manaless Ichorid DOES seem tempting - I might be able to borrow the deck, too :)
Here's my first take:

>>Manaless Ichorid<<
4 Ichorid
4 Gravetroll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Pimp
4 Thug
4 Therapy
4 Unmask--------------- not sure whether 4 belong here.
4 Breakthrough
4 study
4 Deep Analysis--------with 2 free mana on my 2nd turn -> check.
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
1 Flamekin Zealot
2 Cephalid Sage
4 LED

SB:
4 Needle
4 Chalice
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Thoughtseize------against combo (also always castable)

I didn't find room for 4 Coliseums - what would you cut?

[Eldariel]

Stasis seems fairly horrible when everyone gets free mana/turn anyways...

[Eldariel]

But your opponent's stuff doesn't untap and you can ALWAYS pay for Stasis.
Just saying :wink:

Yea, it's just kinda hard to maintain a lock if your opponent can literally play every card in their deck (especially when the active player always has mana advantage and thus can play more counters).

[Illissius]

Manaless Ichorid DOES seem tempting

I thought you said you didn't want to play combo? If you do play Ichorid, you might want to look into supporting Force of Will against all the combo decks. Dunno.

[Van Phanel]

But your opponent's stuff doesn't untap and you can ALWAYS pay for Stasis.
Just saying :wink:

You get the mana during your mainphase.

Bad idea.


That aside this screams turn 1 Standstill/ CB. I'd likely go for a Landstillbuild with Deed and Humility, especially as you have FoW to stop broken things other people might do with their mana.

[klaus]

Alright, I turned my back on Ichorid. It just wasn't as interactive as I want such a deck to be.
Here's my new fav, based on that Danish Ale list:

CA/Disruption:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Night's Whisper
1 Skelletal Scrying
4 Confidant

Solutions:
2 Brainstorm
2 Top
4 Vindicate
4 STP

Beats:
4 Ex. Angel
4 Grunt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Mana:
4 Delta
4 Scrubland
4 Underground Sea
1 Stronghold
1 Cabal Pit
2 Mishra's Factory

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Serenity
4 Wrath of God
3 Tormod's Crypt
-
Whatcha say?

[frogboy]

I wanna win this but NOT play combo.

lol. I am almost positive that some version of Tendrils is far and away the best deck in this format.

[Swing4Five]

I assume the Night's Whisper's are for when you've used your inital hand and want to refuel. Wouldn't Skeletal Scrying (http://magiccards.info/od/en/161.html) be straight up better in this role?

Do you think you're going to make use of the full playset of Tops? Would more straight up card-draw be better in at least one or 2 of those slots?

[Zarg]

Great format! It will probably be enough to say that it's making me post something after lurking since... 2004? (Is Legacy really that old?!) Hi everyone, BTW.

If think you're all still underestimating the speed of this format.
Think combo. Fast combo in Legacy plays cards like Lotus Petal or Simian Spirit Guide, so it is quite happy with changing cards into mana at a 1:1 ratio. So it's like playing it with a starting hand of 10 cards.
Just like Illissius, at first I thought about discard. Now, imagine: Combo starts. The discard deck plays a Hymn to Tourach on the very first turn. Effect? Combo is -2 cards, which means... it's still in a better position than in normal Legacy against NO disruption.
(Note: certain assumptions I make here are not very realistic, but I believe the argument is valid nevertheless)

If you really think about winning you should concentrate on fast combo, either as your deck choice, or as you most important opponent.

I'm to lazy to suggest a list. Just two things to consider:
1. Belcher seams broken as you don't really need lands. Try it also outside the CRET Belcher shell.
2. Orim's Chant seams perfect (i.e. like Time Walk) in a format where people will generally act in the main phase.
3. Start your list with 4 Force of Will.
4. Ichorid seams weak to me. It doesn't really use the advantages of the format to the fullest. What are Therapies and Unmasks going to do against Mystical/Enlightened Tutor putting Ad Nauseum/Belcher on top of the library?


If you want to play a non-combo deck, think about some odd kind of prison. I mean ODD, like: City of Traitor + Rule of Law on the first turn. It's great against storm and normal decks (like Threshold or Loam) will be playing a lot of spells each turn.

EDIT: klaus, the Ale list you've posted won't do a thing against a good deck for this format. Combo may have an empty board and no cards in hand... Ad Nauseum or Belcher of the top and you loose. Even Loam will probably eat you alive as it at least has a good way to use all the extra mana.

[klaus]

I assume the Night's Whisper's are for when you've used your inital hand and want to refuel. Wouldn't Skeletal Scrying (http://magiccards.info/od/en/161.html) be straight up better in this role?
Do you think you're going to make use of the full playset of Tops? Would more straight up card-draw be better in at least one or 2 of those slots?

S. Scrying is better when drawn past turn 4 or 5 (possibly 7+ mana available).
The thing is I want to play spells, too the turn I draw extra cards.
Don't forget we can't abuse Scrying's Instant speed since you get your mana during your own main phase only.
I'll still add 1 simply because it's broken past turn 5.

@Zarg
Lol. I'm glad this thread had you return to the "undead" lurkers. Also, thx for your feedback.
-
The more I think about it, the more I feel you have to apply Vintage theory when analyzing this format. More mana -> more speed -> more brokenness.
I'll need to think some more...

[Citrus-God]

So basically, I decided to build a bombtastic Gifts deck that works in theory. Personally, I think it's really ballin' and should win on Turn 4 consistently with disruption, an ass load of it. I built that decklist off pure theory, so it might suck. However, a Control-Combo deck like this should be bomb.

// Mana 20
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins


// Creatures 1
1 Eternal Witness


// Spells 40
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Burning Wish
1 Recoup
1 Regrowth
2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone


// Sideboard 15
1 Mind Shatter
1 Deep Analysis
1 Decree of Justice
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Eye of Nowhere
1 Rolling Earthquake
1 Regrowth
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Oblivion Stone

[Mirrislegend]

This seems like a good format for Trainwreck.dec. Mono black control with Mind Shatter, Skeletal Scrying, Staff of Domination, and Pernicious Deed seems some good in a format full of mana. Just drop the mana denial plan of Helldozer and Sinkhole for the ferocious beatings of Demigods and Cranial Extractions MD. Don't forget your big helpings of early game discard and you're all set to dominate.

[herbig]

Yeah Belcher seems like the obvious thing to go for. If you don't win turn one you'll win 2-3 turns later...

Drop lands and warrens for Infernals and Serum Powder...

[Resist_Temptation]

i like citrus' list. this format seems fun i may have to talk to some of the local players...

[klaus]

Yeah Belcher seems like the obvious thing to go for. If you don't win turn one you'll win 2-3 turns later...
Drop lands and warrens for Infernals and Serum Powder...

I'd end up with something like this beast here:

Mana:
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Dark Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Kill:
4 Goblin Charbelcher

Tutor:
4 Infernal Tutor

Tricks:
4 Street Wraith
4 Manamorphose
4 Serum Powder---not so synergistic with Infernal so maybe: +3 Manasources+1 Meditate?

Disruption:
4 Thoughtseize

SB:
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Shusher
4 Echoing Truth
5 other

I get the feeling that combo really IS the way to go if I really wanna win this. Meh...

[matelml]

Why play belcher when you can play Tendrils combo with protection? This format is way more broken than vintage. Just really stupidly broken.

[Mirrislegend]

I thought we were trying to go the non-combo route. Right?

Burn also works, because you can play the more expensive 4+ damage spells, and Browbeat becomes playable.

On the note of Browbeat being playable, I realized some form of Zoo may do the trick:

4 FoD (this guy loves this format)
4 Goyf
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Demigod of Revenge
4 Stillmoon Cavalier (or something else with good mana cost abilities)

4 Browbeat
4 Jitte
4 Thoughtseize
4 Terminate

2-8 slots remaining, depending on how much land you want

[Illissius]

You have to realize that the fundamental turn of this format is turn two. Something that wins on turn four in this format is the equivalent of a turn 8 deck in normal Legacy. And yeah, turn 8 decks are plenty in Legacy, so that's not out of the question by any means, but it does mean you have to do a really good job of keeping your opponent from winning before then. (In a format as random and broken as this one promises to be, the relevant question is how, if at all.)

And yeah, I also thought of taking cues from Vintage (hence Merchant Scroll), because the extra mana on turn one is very similar to having a Mox. From turn two forward it gets a lot more broken, though, so it's less of a help. (And obviously, different B/R lists.)

Again, I think the absolutely critical thing to keep in mind is that everything sounds broken when you have double the mana. So it's very easy to get attracted to shiny, bad ideas.

[Shtriga]

I thought about 4 Survival, 4 Bogardan hellkite, 4 Living death, in a blue based deck full of counters and disruption. It's probably slow though, winning in turn 3 at the best.

[SuperBean]

Sounds like you don't have much, and don't know how to play that well?

EDIT: Instead of my one-liner dickish comment, I'll add a little insight. If I was playing in this tournament I would definitely play The Epic Storm, or a close variant. You have the protection and the ability to combo off so much easier with FREE mana. Having that extra 2-3 mana during the turns that you'll most likely win unless you mull into oblivion is amazing.

[yawg07]

I basically took an ANT list and ran it through this.
2nd turn or earlier EVERY SINGLE GAME, several times WITH Chant/Duress.

Why NOT play combo?

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [B] Underground Sea
1 [EUL] Swamp (1)
1 [B] Tundra
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [PS] Rushing River
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [ARE] Duress
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual

[Illissius]

Yeah, I was thinking TES is probably the best choice of the Storm decks. More protection than Belcher (maybe more consistent too?), and not Mystical-based, which would be awkward when you're trying to win on the first turn. (Belcher with added protection is another possibility, but as far as I can tell, you'd need both the extra mana and the extra slots and can't have both.)

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I basically took an ANT list and ran it through this.
2nd turn or earlier EVERY SINGLE GAME, several times WITH Chant/Duress.

Why NOT play combo?



Maybe because in this format people "hate combo out" with lots of cards!
They could drop a first turn Ethersworn Canonist or play a dures and have mana open for Orimas Chant.

But yeah your list seem good...


So that is my list:
// Lands
2 [6E] Crystal Vein
4 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [ST] Tidings
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
4 [JGC] Time Warp
2 [MR] Mindslaver
// Control
3 [OD] Haunting Echoes
4 [MOR] Mind Shatter
3 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
// Anti Combo suite
4 [US] Arcane Laboratory
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AL] Force of Will


Time Warp is very broken. With the 2 mana lands you could play it turn 2 and you gain an extra mana!

[Wobbles The Goose]

Time Warp is very broken. With the 2 mana lands you could play it turn 2 and you gain an extra mana!

I was thinking the same thing. Savor the moment also seems particularly broken for this reason. I can definately see a deck wanting to go turn 1 trinisphere into time warp effects as being really good.

4 Crystal Vein
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
4 Arcane Lab

Some islands and a whole lot of free counters and time walks seems awesome against the .combo format.

[dahcmai]

All things considered, I think Stax would be prudent. It stops combo cold most of the time and has no problem with having extras mana.

[klaus]

All things considered, I think Stax would be prudent. It stops combo cold most of the time and has no problem with having extras mana.

The problem with Stax is that it's mana denial plan is obsolete in this format. :rolleyes:

[DeathwingZERO]

I seriously think that Ichorid has even more savage potential in this format than in regular Legacy. With the right build, you can bust out first turn Coliseum activations, bait Daze like it's nothing, and essentially win by turn two like 90% of the time (slight exaggeration, maybe, but still......beating Daze on turn one is ridiculous).

If I wasn't to play Ichorid (in case there's too much grave based hate to be expected), I'd definitely pick up something like ANT or AN infused TES.

There's little to no reason that combo wouldn't rape this format. The ONLY thing hampering you at this point (on your first turn alone) is an opponent playing FoW or Chalice if they are on the play.

[Illissius]

I wonder if you could do Turboland with 12(-16) Time Warps or something. Play the first one on turn two and then never give your opponent another turn. Maybe worse than Tendrils... but you get to run Force of Will, so maybe not. Assuming, of course, that it works.

[matelml]

What about some list with FoW AND Tendrils? With so much free mana, you can cut some moxes or something and make a Pitch Long-alike list.

[klaus]

What about some list with FoW AND Tendrils? With so much free mana, you can cut some moxes or something and make a Pitch Long-alike list.
Good point. But with excess rainbow mana Chant and Thoughtseize just seem stronger imo.

[Illissius]

Also while the extra mana makes this brokener than Vintage in many ways, there's no Yawgmoth's Will, and Pitch Long is Will.dec (also Draw 7s, Necro, Bargain, and Desire). Maybe you could make a FoW-Tendrils deck, but not in the same way.

[wolfstorm]

So I'm pretty sure Battle of Wits is the obvious way to go. It would be a complete blind side and no one would expect it coming, and no one would ever know what your playing, just make sure to tell them that the sleeves are why it looks like theres so many cards, you know, there puffy and all.

Anyways, I think some form of Control Slaver would be strong, not quite sure how the list would look though :/. Oh, and Misdirect seems like it would be a solid choice to go with FoW, Switching chant's around etc seems like it would be fun, or one copy of a only 9 stormed tendrils, other counters etc.



i like citrus' list. this format seems fun i may have to talk to some of the local players...

Totally going to bring it up at the local tournament to.

[KillemallCFH]

For shits and giggles I threw together a 12TimeWarp.dec list. Seems pretty subpar, but fun nonetheless, and maybe decent with some tuning.
// Mana
15 [10E] Island (3)
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
// Time Walks
4 [TE] Time Warp
4 [P3] Capture of Jingzhou
4 [P2] Temporal Manipulation
3 [OD] Time Stretch
2 [6E] Relearn
// Stop Opponent From Winning
2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [US] Arcane Laboratory
4 [AL] Force of Will
// Win + Draw power
2 [A] Braingeyser
2 [US] Stroke of Genius
1 [OD] Traumatize
3 [CS] Perilous Research

Arcane Lab seems necessary to stop Combo. Perilous Research is basically in there so that you can get rid of an Arcane Lab that's stopping your from continuing (e.g. you need to Relearn -> Time Walk). I was running Foils but they seemed kinda awful. Still might be better than Chalice here though.

Also, question about the rules of this format. Do you get mana equal to the current turn or your current turn? Like, does the player on the play get 1 mana, then the player on the draw get 2, then the player on the play get 3, etc. or does each player get 1, then each get 2, etc.?

[DS2]

maybe try something with staff of domination

[Blitzbold]

So Jaschar is fishing for external help? Mate, you are to build your deck on your own! ;-)

I also might attend in this one and I thin not playing some sort of combo is absurd. This format is really broken and I am still not sure in which direction I'd like to take my deck.