[Deck] Solidarity

[Kanti]

Remanding Force means you are pitching 2 blue cards and replacing Remand. Why is that the best thing ever? Remanding Flusterstorm seems much stronger given that the storm copies stay around to counter shit.

I'm also pro-Remand but Snapcaster is still pretty good as a replacement. You can't reuse spells with Remand, only psuedo-Time Walk, psuedo-counter spells, cantrip, and combo with Brainfreeze. I think its best to play a Split. Also, Snapcaster can interact with Snap for the Snap engine, and Snapcaster can block a dude to give you an extra turn sometimes when you are blocking something big. Snapcaster can also target Force but obviously its card disadvantage.

Also, is there no love for Peer Through Depths? Digging 5 cards when you aren't looking for a land is fucking awesome. Its way better than Flash of Insight. I don't understand why people still run that card. Most of the people I've run into IRL have dropped it from their lists.


Remanding your Force doesn't leave you so dry. You rfg your card for Force, lose your Remand and draw a filler, and then get to choose what's the most chaff card in your hand to rfg again. All of this is better than losing to a resolved reanimation spell (remember, in my post I said Remand>Force is specifically amazing in the Reanimator match-up)

Yes, Remanding Flusterstorm can be better, but you have access to double Force on turn 2 if you have Remand in hand. That is HUGE. Of course it loses power vs a combo deck that doesn't run counterspells. And you you can in a sense re-use spells vs Remand, but yeah, you would be doing this by preventing your spell from being countered. Being a pseudo-counter spell is huge in a deck that can combo off in response to a spell being cast again. It used to be stronger when there was more Reanimator and Jace, the Mind Fucker everywhere, so it might be wise to run 3 now. I still wouldn't leave the house without it.


I don't think Snapcaster is a good replacement for Remand, but he is a house. He is just in his own league, so it's hard to classify what card he should replace. I'm testing him as a 2-of but I think I like him more as a 1-of. Running 3 Turnabouts seems better as they dodge Spell Snares, which both RUG and Stoneforge play. They also make it a bit easier to combo out on your own turn, as even if Snapcaster does double as Turnabouts he is naturally a gimped version of them, and then theres the matter of actually finding the Turnabout. And past them I woudn't know what to replace, though running 3 Remand might be alright.

I really don't want to have the FoI debate again, or the PtD debate again. It's amazing, at least to me, and thats what years of testing the deck by many others has proven. It's raw card advantage (2 for 1), and playing it as a one-of makes sure you will never be clogged with a useless FoI in your hand. Digging 5 cards is shit to digging 2 cards, then casting Demonic Tutor whilst stacking your deck. You're not always going to have a Brainstorm in your graveyard. Stop pretending.

Just like 4 Tide/3 Wish the topic has been discussed to death, and there is a lot of information on it in the older Solidarity thread, or earlier pages of this one.

[benthetenor]

My list is running Snap in place of Remand, because of all of the reasons that I posted for it being at least as good, if not better, in the current metagame.

I've been playing Remand for as long as I've been playing the deck, and I've only just now come to the conclusion that it's too slow. It's always really shone against enemy counterspells or big, expensive bombs, but against Nimble Mongoose and Delver of Secrets, there's just not much he does. He is really quite good against Maverick, but since when do we need help against that deck? And Snap is at least as good. Against Combo, sure, it's better than Snap. But then I'd rather have a deck that can rival the speed of other combo decks than a slower, less-consistent one that tries to play control in that matchup. Against aggro, Remand is strictly a pseudo-time walk, and Snap is just more effective at controlling the pace of the game. As there are no pure control decks in the format anymore, Remand doesn't seem to be optimal.

tl;dr: Snap speeds up the fundamental turn and controls creatures better, and nowadays, we're pretty much just losing to creatures.

As for Snapcaster Mage, I agree, he's on his own level. It's hard to find a card that does what he does as an analog, because what he does is pretty unique. But here's the short list:

- Blocks Tarmogoyf
- flashback Brainstorm to dig for land
- flashback combo piece to continue to combo
- combo with Brain Freeze to prevent fizzling
- doubles Brain Freeze, a la Remand
- protects cards from Surgical Extraction

In my deck, take the last list from Gearhart and go -1 Turnabout, -2 Flash of Insight, -1 Twincast (I think) for +4 Snapcaster Mage. He works just like Flash of Insight to make you fizzle far, far less mid-combo, while at the same time effectively doubling every single combo card you have (which lets you take out a Turnabout). I would never play less than 4. He's never dead, never a liability, and he adds consistency. I don't see why you'd want to play with anything but the full 4.

And I disagree with cutting Brain Freeze to focus on the Blue Sun's Zenith kill. What I love about this deck, moreso than any other combo deck I've ever played (and I've played them all) is that there are zero dead cards pre-combo. Brain Freeze only costs 2. BSZ costs way, way more, making it far more likely to be dead when you're not winning. You can use Brain Freeze to do lots of things to get set up to beat them. Blue Sun's Zenith only works as a super (expensive) Meditate, or a kill card.

[Kanti]

Why not try working Intuition into that list? Seems crazy.

[benthetenor]

Why not try working Intuition into that list? Seems crazy.

My friend plays a version with Intuitions, but I'm not convinced that they're necessary. I already end up with my entire deck in my hand, why would I need a tutor?

[Kanti]

So I've come around to playing x2 Snapcasters and x2 Snaps. If Thalia didn't exist I would happily go -2 Snap, +1 Snapcaster/Remand, +1 Turnabout. We sadly need some MD bounce.

I do feel like he's a liability sometimes, since he's just a worse version of what you are trying to cast. The 2/1 body will be relevant some games, but it will be irrelevant in many others. As a 4-of you have to be running Snaps as you will be ending up with an overload of Snapcasters, which sucks. Again, he is in his own league, so though the casting analogy isn't 100% spot on it remains true.

I do agree that Remand can be cut down one, but when I went with the 4 Snap build I absolutely dreaded it. I barely could combo out faster, and when I could it was sometimes wiser to wait. I felt like my hands had way too much gas, while having no re-active spells and not having enough draw to seal the deal on t3 (why I recommended Intuition, you can run it as a 1-of and when you cast it you pretty much win).

One thing I am certainly not missing is the 4th Opt.

What do you guys think of Extraction in the sb? Obviously if you run x4 Snaps you would be cutting some bounce spells from the sb and have more space, but would it be worth it in my x2 Snap list? I kind of feel like replacing it with Krosan Grip.

[benthetenor]

So I've come around to playing x2 Snapcasters and x2 Snaps. If Thalia didn't exist I would happily go -2 Snap, +1 Snapcaster/Remand, +1 Turnabout. We sadly need some MD bounce.

I do feel like he's a liability sometimes, since he's just a worse version of what you are trying to cast. The 2/1 body will be relevant some games, but it will be irrelevant in many others. As a 4-of you have to be running Snaps as you will be ending up with an overload of Snapcasters, which sucks. Again, he is in his own league, so though the casting analogy isn't 100% spot on it remains true.

I do agree that Remand can be cut down one, but when I went with the 4 Snap build I absolutely dreaded it. I barely could combo out faster, and when I could it was sometimes wiser to wait. I felt like my hands had way too much gas, while having no re-active spells and not having enough draw to seal the deal on t3 (why I recommended Intuition, you can run it as a 1-of and when you cast it you pretty much win).

One thing I am certainly not missing is the 4th Opt.

What do you guys think of Extraction in the sb? Obviously if you run x4 Snaps you would be cutting some bounce spells from the sb and have more space, but would it be worth it in my x2 Snap list? I kind of feel like replacing it with Krosan Grip.

I ran Snapcaster Mage as a 4 of without any Snap for a very, very long time, and I can assure you that it's pretty much impossible to get overloaded on him. Much more than a Regrowth, Snapcaster Mage makes an excellent chump blocker to buy time and help you setup your hand with flashbacked cantrips.

Running an Intuition only increases your dependence upon Snap, which is a bad direction to take the deck. As of right now, there is a very small chance that they could blow you out with a Swords to Plowshares, as Snap is playing the part mostly of an accelerant or spell to delay them a bit. If you make it an integral combo piece, you increase the chances that their dead removal spells can interact with you in a significant way, which is bad.

And it is always wiser to wait. Snap being in the deck just gives you the option to be faster if you can't afford to wait. And I've been playing Surgical Extraction for as long as it's existed. If you know what you're doing, it's a beating against Ichorid, and it's one of the best spells we have against Reanimator.

[Kanti]

If you are casting early Snaps and are casting Mages to chump before you have cantrips in the gy you are losing way too much CA. Snapcasters maintain CA at t3, which isn't bad by any means, but is a bit late (And you of course need a binned cantrip). If Snapcaster Mage was simply a card called Snapcasted: Draw a card. Target instant or sorcery in your gy gains flashback until the end of turn then I would play it as an auto 4-of as he replaces himself.

Snap isn't needed as a 4-of, and neither is Snapcaster. I do believe the deck needs some Mages and probably some main-deck bounce, which would naturally be Snap as you are going to be replacing a Turnabout and need to make up for that, but the deck does not need to max out on them.

All of the decks problems vs Zoo and other hyper aggro decks (mainly them being about 1 Tarmogoyf hit too early for us too win) have been solved by either Snapcaster or Snap, so you don't really need to see multiples of each spell in those matches as either one will accomplish setting back their clock Remand is better at addressing this decks other problems (U-based control, and Storm), and is still good vs just about every deck.

It is very easy to get overloaded on Snapcasters in the early game. He shines like a beacon of hope in the late game, but by then the deck starts taking over as a whole. This is why I play Remand, because it is amazing in the early game and is still pretty damn good in the late game. As I said before, it has lost some of it's power as UW Stoneforge is played less, albeit heavily played, and Reanimator has gone way down in the ranks (Snap will not be as good as Remand g2&g3 when they are bringing in shrouded creatures. It is still amazing though, and even more powerful here in conjuction with Remand).

This deck doesn't have infinite mana. You can't just run Snaps out there that won't hit anything (they can Swords/LB their own shit). And Mages are heavy on your mana, which is important when your trying to get the combo off the ground. I kind of want to go back to 3 Turnabouts main-deck as they have saved me from Spell Snare too many times, but so far I have been able to keep playing around it. It is nice that most decks only play 3 of them.

edit: snap snappety snap snip snop

[benthetenor]

I've never been in a situation where I had to run a Snapcaster Mage out there to chump block without being able to also flashback something. And I'm not usually in the habit of burning Snaps unless I'm about to lose.

All I will say is that drawing a Remand when you're trying to go off is just about the worst. Only slightly better than a Force of Will. Snap, on the other hand, turns into Snapcaster Mage which wins you the game on the spot. The two aren't close, and I've tested both. Extensively. I'm not really going to argue hypotheticals with you since it's pretty clear that you haven't tested a list with full playsets of Snapcaster Mage and/or Snap. Simply put, if you're having trouble coming up with mana while playing with 8 Snapcaster Mages, you're doing it wrong.

Oh, and I usually would board out Remand in the Reanimator matchup. Surgical Extraction and Flusterstorm are just way, way better. The only matchup where I want Remand all day long would be some sort of counterspell-heavy control deck, which hasn't existed in the metagame since Counterbalance-Top fell out of favor, and even then I'd probably rather have Flusterstorm and Mindbreak Trap.

[Silent Requiem]

Hey, benthetenor, I'm really interested in testing the kind of list you're talking about - you make it sound like loads of fun. Do you have a suggested 60 cards?

[benthetenor]

Sure man. My current list is:

11 Island
6 blue fetches

4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
3 Visions of Beyond
2 Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
4 Snap
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Turnabout
4 Force of Will

SB:
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe Away
3 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap

My friend suggested (and I tested) playing with Pact of Negation over Force of Will, but there are just too many things you need that little bit of protection against that Pact won't do. Snapcasting Pact of Negation is incredibly sweet, though. Visions of Beyond is incredible, as always, and the 2 Peek means that I will see one every matchup and most games, and won't have to cast two very often. This list is as close to perfect as anything I've come up with so far, but I'm sure that some of the numbers could fidget a little. I've put more time and thought into this list than pretty much any other deck I've ever thought of, which is why I'm quick to have answers for your guys' questions. Not that they're bad questions, just that, well, I've already thought of that. Snapcaster Mage really takes this deck from tier 3 to competitive since now you can be just as fast as Zoo and Goblins without putting too much stress on the list.

The only quirk that I'm not sure I'm satisfied with is the land count. 17 is definitely on the low end, and you end up using your cantrips to find land, including Brainstorming more aggressively than I have in the past, but the added Peek over an 18th land is one more live card you can draw off of a Meditate. You're still going to occasionally Meditate into 3 land and a Force of Will, but having Snapcaster Mages and Snaps means that it's usually a snap to Meditate again (pun maybe intended?). And with Snap instead of Remand, that's 4 more live cards you can draw off of a "bad" Meditate. But 6 fetches is good because it helps you fill the yard ever so slightly for Visions of Beyond, and means you'll always have a shuffle for early Brainstorms. Late, you just Brain Freeze off the cards you don't need.

Oh, and if you want to have fun, play against a sorcery-speed version of High Tide. Most hilarious match I've ever had in tournament play.

[Vacrix]

On the topic of Intuition. Intuition into 3 Moment's Peace post-board could literally buy you 4 extra turns. :cool:

[benthetenor]

I mean, yeah. Until they Wasteland your Tropical Island and you die the next turn. I'd rather just win.

[Vacrix]

Yeah people keep telling me that. I've played Solidarity for like a year with a Trop. Wasteland is usually irrelevant in the matchups that you even look for the Trop. Also, you can go off in response to their Wasteland activation, something I've certainly done before. Trop is for improving your aggro matchup. Not all aggro decks run Wasteland. Zoo, Elves, Sligh, etc. These decks don't run Wasteland but they are fast enough that you aren't really going to have the luxury of just going off in response. Tangle is the fucking tech. Its often 2 extra turns that you need to go off successfully. Hell I've even had 2 of my Trops Wasted in one game but I Tangled 3 times, another time via Snapcaster, and what do you know, still won because I had plenty of time to sculpt and hit land drops.

[benthetenor]

Yeah people keep telling me that. I've played Solidarity for like a year with a Trop. Wasteland is usually irrelevant in the matchups that you even look for the Trop. Also, you can go off in response to their Wasteland activation, something I've certainly done before. Trop is for improving your aggro matchup. Not all aggro decks run Wasteland. Zoo, Elves, Sligh, etc. These decks don't run Wasteland but they are fast enough that you aren't really going to have the luxury of just going off in response. Tangle is the fucking tech. Its often 2 extra turns that you need to go off successfully. Hell I've even had 2 of my Trops Wasted in one game but I Tangled 3 times, another time via Snapcaster, and what do you know, still won because I had plenty of time to sculpt and hit land drops.

I'm just saying, if your plan is to Moment's Peace 4 times, that seems rather easy to derail with a single Wasteland activation. I'm not opposed to the splash, I just find it unnecessary since Counterbalance isn't a legit part of the metagame, which removes one of the biggest strengths of the splash (K. Grip). In either case, if you're going to intuition, it seems like a less strong play to get 3 cards that don't advance your gameplan, rather than three that do. If you get to turn 4, I'd rather just win.

In either case, Tangle is better because it stops them for two turns, with or without a Wasteland on their part. The aggro decks without Wasteland aren't really the ones I'm worried about.

[Vacrix]

Honestly, I'd play Trop even if we didn't have to deal with Counterbalance. Tangle is just too good in some matchups. Even Goblins, stopping them for 2 turns is enough to get there. Especially when you need to find an answer for Pyroblasts in the post-board.

[benthetenor]

That seems counterproductive to me. You're potentially sacrificing both the actual resource of the land as well as the time and effort it took to get it for a chance of buying yourself two turns. But if you lose that land to Wasteland, you've also lost at least a turn, maybe more if you don't topdeck one or have extra ones in hand. Snap, Remand, Repeal, stuff like that all buys you a similar amount of time but without the downside of potentially losing your land. If you're lucky, it will buy you two turns, if they don't have Wasteland and you can use your land drops. But if you can't replace the land drops after they get Wastelanded, you're going to just be wasting time. Seems like a long-shot to me, but then, I haven't tested it. My gut would say that an on-color answer that you can afford to play main-deck is probably better than an off color, out-of-the-sideboard answer.

[Kanti]

I've never been in a situation where I had to run a Snapcaster Mage out there to chump block without being able to also flashback something. And I'm not usually in the habit of burning Snaps unless I'm about to lose.

All I will say is that drawing a Remand when you're trying to go off is just about the worst. Only slightly better than a Force of Will. Snap, on the other hand, turns into Snapcaster Mage which wins you the game on the spot. The two aren't close, and I've tested both. Extensively. I'm not really going to argue hypotheticals with you since it's pretty clear that you haven't tested a list with full playsets of Snapcaster Mage and/or Snap. Simply put, if you're having trouble coming up with mana while playing with 8 Snapcaster Mages, you're doing it wrong.

Oh, and I usually would board out Remand in the Reanimator matchup. Surgical Extraction and Flusterstorm are just way, way better. The only matchup where I want Remand all day long would be some sort of counterspell-heavy control deck, which hasn't existed in the metagame since Counterbalance-Top fell out of favor, and even then I'd probably rather have Flusterstorm and Mindbreak Trap.

I feel like you're starting to troll, with the "you're doing it wrong", but I'll bite. As I said before I'm still testing the 4 Snap version, but it has very little in early game action. As you said yourself you won't be burning Snapcasters so they come online t3.

All I will say rather is I have my doubts taking everything forum goers when they side out Remands versus Reanimator because "Fluster and Extraction are way better". Side in Flusters, keep Remands for your Forces.

[benthetenor]

I feel like you're starting to troll, with the "you're doing it wrong", but I'll bite. As I said before I'm still testing the 4 Snap version, but it has very little in early game action. As you said yourself you won't be burning Snapcasters so they come online t3.

All I will say rather is I have my doubts taking everything forum goers when they side out Remands versus Reanimator because "Fluster and Extraction are way better". Side in Flusters, keep Remands for your Forces.

If you feel I'm "starting to troll", then prove me wrong. Playing a version with 8 Snap/Snapcaster, it's not uncommon to generate 100+ mana and stroke the opponent out. I find it very, very difficult to believe that you're having issues with getting enough mana with this version.

What exactly are you going to side out against Reanimator to make room for the 6 cards that I'm bringing in?

[Kanti]

No one has been proved right or wrong. Until a list places well at an event we are just testing. It is like me saying "Oh yeah, well prove me wrong".

I said that a list maxing out on Mages and Snaps will have some trouble going through Spell Snare, and for that matter removal g1. It happens, and you will lose some games. That is not to say one shoudn't play Mages or Snaps, even in high volume, just that one should be careful of what he takes out of the deck. There will be some games that you are just staring at a Mage in your hand as your opponent is resolving GSZ's and Goyfs. Hell, I'll even admit that I have been testing a third Mage over FoI just to see if I can sneak another one in the deck without sacrificing too much, since he is a boss. But he sucks in the early game.

There is a lot to side out vs Reanimator, and it is not Remand. Side out 1-4 Opts, 1-2 Impulses, FoI if you run it, one of your main-deck Freezes. A Mage build will be even stronger versus Reanimator (You run bounce, and can re-cast your hate via Mage).

Of all spells to side out vs Reanimator it is not Remand though, as it's synergy with FoW, Extraction, and Fluster are all too good to pass up. It's not that hard to make room when your goal goes from comboing off on t4 to just keeping them from comboing off for as long as possible to Draw, Go into a win.

[herbig]

Visions of Beyond is incredible, as always...

You're not playing Opt and you cut a land? I'm skeptical.

[benthetenor]

You're not playing Opt and you cut a land? I'm skeptical.

Read back a few pages if you're actually interested in the reasoning. I maintain that Visions of Beyond is the perfect card for this deck.



No one has been proved right or wrong. Until a list places well at an event we are just testing. It is like me saying "Oh yeah, well prove me wrong".

I said that a list maxing out on Mages and Snaps will have some trouble going through Spell Snare, and for that matter removal g1. It happens, and you will lose some games. That is not to say one shoudn't play Mages or Snaps, even in high volume, just that one should be careful of what he takes out of the deck. There will be some games that you are just staring at a Mage in your hand as your opponent is resolving GSZ's and Goyfs. Hell, I'll even admit that I have been testing a third Mage over FoI just to see if I can sneak another one in the deck without sacrificing too much, since he is a boss. But he sucks in the early game.

There is a lot to side out vs Reanimator, and it is not Remand. Side out 1-4 Opts, 1-2 Impulses, FoI if you run it, one of your main-deck Freezes. A Mage build will be even stronger versus Reanimator (You run bounce, and can re-cast your hate via Mage).

Of all spells to side out vs Reanimator it is not Remand though, as it's synergy with FoW, Extraction, and Fluster are all too good to pass up. It's not that hard to make room when your goal goes from comboing off on t4 to just keeping them from comboing off for as long as possible to Draw, Go into a win.

I'm not really trying to prove anything to you, kid. A big tournament win, that doesn't even necessarily say much. My saying "prove it" means prove it to yourself. Personally, I don't care in the least bit whether or not you take my advice or keep playing Remand.

The thing that I have never feared with this deck is counterspells. I'm not sure why you think replacing Snap or Snapcaster Mage with Remand is going to make you stronger against Spell Snare. All of those spells cost 2, so all are equally vulnerable to Spell Snare. The difference is, Snap and Snapcaster Mage can be used aggressively to further your combo, Remand cannot. In a combo deck, I'd much, much rather be the aggressor, since you're never going to have enough actual counterspells to control the game. Besides which, this is the first time you've said anything about Spell Snare.

If they're casting Green Sun's Zenith, I win. Plain and simple. The only guys they can get off of that are Gaddock Teeg, which I just do not care about, and Scavenging Ooze, which is annoying but, again, not a deal breaker since I don't have to lean on Snapcaster Mages to get the job done, and since he can pretty easily be bounced before going off with my 4 maindeck Snap. But in general, if it's a creature, it's much, much easier to deal with with Snap than with Remand.

Reanimator's plan against us is, very simply, T1 Entomb for Iona, T2 Reanimate Iona, scoop. Bounce does nothing. Flusterstorm gives us a fighting chance since it's difficult to counter, and Surgical Extraction completely undoes all of their setup. Any other creature that they reanimate buys us several turns and/or can be Snapped. What does remand do in this situation? If we're lucky (it doesn't get Dazed, they're using one of the 2 mana spells rather than Reanimate), it delays them a turn. Flusterstorm, on the other hand, stops them. Surgical Extraction destroys them. I will never, never never, board out more than one or two Opt effects, or any number of Impulse. The deck has issues hitting land drops as it is, so cutting any of those cards is suicidal. I will not bring in bounce against them since it does nothing against a resolved Iona. So, specifically, what six cards would you like me to cut to bring in 3 Flusterstorm and 3 Surgical Extraction? What synergy does Remand have with Surgical Extraction?

I have tested with Remands for a very, very long time. I have found that trying to be a control deck is not something that this deck is capable of doing. Besides which, Remand is not a control card, since it doesn't actually stop them, just delay them. My testing has shown that trying to control the game against any deck except for Belcher is a bad move. That said, instead of spending two mana to maybe delay them a turn, I'd choose to spend one mana to actually stop them, potentially for many turns. I'd also like to still function as a combo deck, which means trading protection spells for protection spells, not business spells. In any combo deck, the cards have to buy you lots and lots of time to be worth not being combo pieces. Remand just doesn't do that. Surgical Extraction, on the other hand, does.

[herbig]

Read back a few pages if you're actually interested in the reasoning. I maintain that Visions of Beyond is the perfect card for this deck.

With 17 lands, 4 Brainstorm, 3 Visions, and 2 Peek, you don't have any issues hitting land drops? Why doesn't Spiral Tide cut lands in the same vein, with such drastically superior cantrips?

[benthetenor]

With 17 lands, 4 Brainstorm, 3 Visions, and 2 Peek, you don't have any issues hitting land drops? Why doesn't Spiral Tide cut lands in the same vein, with such drastically superior cantrips?

Some do. But honestly, I've got one more 1-mana cantrip than what most Solidarity lists play. It's always been much easier to hit land number 2 than land number 3 and 4, so Impulse can also be added to that list of cards to help dig with. In practice, the difference between 17 lands and 18 lands is pretty minimal, especially considering that I'll almost never keep a 1-land hand. Maybe one game in a hundred will it cause me to mulligan more than usual. But the 1-mana cantrips have always been weaker than those in the sorcery speed version, so they're there to provide card velocity, rather than powerful digging. That's kind of what Impulse is for. The difference between the second Peek and the 18th land has proved to be pretty minimal, with the exception being that Peek does a lot more and doesn't suck off of a Meditate.

As I said though, 17 lands is the one thing I'm not super excited about. But it also helps that this version can win off of fewer lands much, much easier than versions with Remand.

[Kanti]

I'm not really trying to prove anything to you, kid. A big tournament win, that doesn't even necessarily say much. My saying "prove it" means prove it to yourself. Personally, I don't care in the least bit whether or not you take my advice or keep playing Remand.

The thing that I have never feared with this deck is counterspells. I'm not sure why you think replacing Snap or Snapcaster Mage with Remand is going to make you stronger against Spell Snare. All of those spells cost 2, so all are equally vulnerable to Spell Snare. The difference is, Snap and Snapcaster Mage can be used aggressively to further your combo, Remand cannot. In a combo deck, I'd much, much rather be the aggressor, since you're never going to have enough actual counterspells to control the game. Besides which, this is the first time you've said anything about Spell Snare.

If they're casting Green Sun's Zenith, I win. Plain and simple. The only guys they can get off of that are Gaddock Teeg, which I just do not care about, and Scavenging Ooze, which is annoying but, again, not a deal breaker since I don't have to lean on Snapcaster Mages to get the job done, and since he can pretty easily be bounced before going off with my 4 maindeck Snap. But in general, if it's a creature, it's much, much easier to deal with with Snap than with Remand.

Reanimator's plan against us is, very simply, T1 Entomb for Iona, T2 Reanimate Iona, scoop. Bounce does nothing. Flusterstorm gives us a fighting chance since it's difficult to counter, and Surgical Extraction completely undoes all of their setup. Any other creature that they reanimate buys us several turns and/or can be Snapped. What does remand do in this situation? If we're lucky (it doesn't get Dazed, they're using one of the 2 mana spells rather than Reanimate), it delays them a turn. Flusterstorm, on the other hand, stops them. Surgical Extraction destroys them. I will never, never never, board out more than one or two Opt effects, or any number of Impulse. The deck has issues hitting land drops as it is, so cutting any of those cards is suicidal. I will not bring in bounce against them since it does nothing against a resolved Iona. So, specifically, what six cards would you like me to cut to bring in 3 Flusterstorm and 3 Surgical Extraction? What synergy does Remand have with Surgical Extraction?

I have tested with Remands for a very, very long time. I have found that trying to be a control deck is not something that this deck is capable of doing. Besides which, Remand is not a control card, since it doesn't actually stop them, just delay them. My testing has shown that trying to control the game against any deck except for Belcher is a bad move. That said, instead of spending two mana to maybe delay them a turn, I'd choose to spend one mana to actually stop them, potentially for many turns. I'd also like to still function as a combo deck, which means trading protection spells for protection spells, not business spells. In any combo deck, the cards have to buy you lots and lots of time to be worth not being combo pieces. Remand just doesn't do that. Surgical Extraction, on the other hand, does.


First time I mentioned Spell Snare? Are you joking? And for the last time I side in x4 Flusterstorms versus Reanimator and have Wish>Extraction. Read my posts.

For the last time Remand is an "actual" control card. You are going to be relying Forces like hell versus Reanimator. Remand is virtually another Force of Will when you use them together. You don't use Remand to just delay them for a turn, you save it until you can double-force. Unless you are going to die right there.

If you have a fucked up sideboard and run 3 Extractions then sure, you are probably well off enough versus Reanimator. Most of us have normal wishboards though. (How don't you see the synergy by the way? Extraction is a free spell meaning if you Remand it you can re-cast it for 2 life without any problems)

Check it out, kid.
-2 Snap
-2 Peek
-1 Impulse
-1 Brainfreeze

+3 Extraction, +3 Fluster

Oh my god. Or a plan for my deck!
-1-2 Snap (If they play SnT and a full set of Jins keep the Snaps in)
-1-2 Opt (Read: Snap)
-1 Brainfreeze

+4 Flusterstorm.

Maybe you would side out some shitty cantrips to bring in the proper amount of hate versus combo decks (decks that if stopped won't spit out a win for another 3-4 turns) if you ran some lands.





































Kid.

[Silent Requiem]

I spent an evening goldfishing benthetenor's list, and I found it quite interesting.

First, I was able to go off on three land about once in every three or four games. I could probably get that number up a bit with more practice (better mulligans, etc). Now, I wouldn't want to have to fight through disruption on three lands, but that's not the point - we're talking about having to beat a super fast aggro hand on the draw. There's nothing stopping us waiting until that fourth land in other instances, after all.

I also agree that, once it gets going, this deck makes absolutely stupid amounts of mana. Because of this I was far more likely to simply BSZ for the win because I didn't then need to worry about tapping out my opponent's creatures.

However, I was unimpressed by VoB - I could simply win before I was drawing three cards. Of course, this might be different in a real game rather than a goldfish.

The deck is obviously abusing the graveyard, but is not really graveyard dependent. While being shut out of our graveyard would slow us down, it wouldn't stop us, and siding in that graveyard disruption presumably slows our opponent down too.

Finally, I had no issues hitting lands 1-3, but land 4 was something that could be tough to find. That said, I never failed to go off successfully on turn four, even if I only had three lands.

As I say, the deck is interesting. I'll probably test it some more.

[benthetenor]

19 year old rage

Listen bud. I'm not sure what you're so mad about. My sideboard is solid, and my main deck is better than yours. Just deal with it and move on. :cool::cool::cool:

Seriously though, chill out. Extraction is in my sideboard for Dredge. I've never needed more than 3 Flusterstorm against even the most resilient combo, and that's without Remand. Those two cards together happen to be the nuts against Reanimator, which is awesome because that deck is a nightmare, but honestly if I weren't already planning on playing those cards in my sideboard, I'd just write off the Reanimator matchup since it's not oppressively played around here and even post SB, it can't be better than 50/50. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Relying on Remand in a match-up with a turn 2 combo deck that plays with Daze does not seem like a good plan. Going first, you'd better hope they don't have the Daze. If you happen to be going second, you just lost with a Remand sitting in your hand. But whatever. If it makes you happy, by all means. If you're not even going to test my list before telling me that I'm going to have mana issues or be "overloaded" on Snapcaster Mages, I'm not sure that you're open to rational discussion, which is fine I guess. You've pretty consistently failed to address half of the points I've made in each of my posts, and I'm getting tired of asking you the same questions over and over again.

This deck with 4 Snap and 4 Snapcaster Mage plays fundamentally differently than Solidarity builds that run neither. It's faster, it's more consistent, it doesn't need as many lands, it can generate incredible amounts of mana and storm, it's just more powerful than previous versions. All of that is directly attributable to cutting 4 protection spells (Remand) for 4 pseudo-combo pieces (Snap). It loses a small amount of interaction with spells by playing Snap over Remand, but as I've said, that is 100% a metagame call. The only decks I've lost to in the last six months (while playing with Remand) have been aggro decks. Remand sucks against Aggro decks. So I switched to Snap. Snap has more interaction against creatures than Remand does. What, exactly, is complicated about that?

The thing that is ridiculous about all of this is that I think that Remand is a great card and was one of my favorite parts about playing this deck. Man, it's like I killed your dog...

God bless!

[benthetenor]

I spent an evening goldfishing benthetenor's list, and I found it quite interesting.

First, I was able to go off on three land about once in every three or four games. I could probably get that number up a bit with more practice (better mulligans, etc). Now, I wouldn't want to have to fight through disruption on three lands, but that's not the point - we're talking about having to beat a super fast aggro hand on the draw. There's nothing stopping us waiting until that fourth land in other instances, after all.

I also agree that, once it gets going, this deck makes absolutely stupid amounts of mana. Because of this I was far more likely to simply BSZ for the win because I didn't then need to worry about tapping out my opponent's creatures.

However, I was unimpressed by VoB - I could simply win before I was drawing three cards. Of course, this might be different in a real game rather than a goldfish.

The deck is obviously abusing the graveyard, but is not really graveyard dependent. While being shut out of our graveyard would slow us down, it wouldn't stop us, and siding in that graveyard disruption presumably slows our opponent down too.

Finally, I had no issues hitting lands 1-3, but land 4 was something that could be tough to find. That said, I never failed to go off successfully on turn four, even if I only had three lands.

As I say, the deck is interesting. I'll probably test it some more.

Thanks! I'm glad you like it, since you're opinion is one that matters to me. I can't take all of the credit for the list; though this one is entirely mine, I've been working with my friend (Jeff Blyden) on the ideas behind this deck since he first brought it to SCG: St. Louis. They did a deck-check (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_high_tide_with_jeff_.html) with him as part of the coverage.

Visions is a tricky card to get the full benefit out of. Pre-combo, it just cycles, which is just about all that Opt ever does, anyway. Where it's shone for me most is if I have a hand that's like High Tide, Reset, Reset, Brain Freeze, Visions. That hand would be terrible if you had Opt, but with Visions of Beyond, you can usually storm up a bit then Visions, respond with Brain Freeze and get them for enough to turn on Visions, and from there you will sometimes have enough gas to win. Not an optimal situation by any means, but it helps you way more there than Opt ever would. It's just another card that makes Brain Freeze an actual card in the deck, rather than just a kill condition, and the added synergy has been great. It certainly helps you pull way ahead if you're running ragged, which is not something Opt is ever able to do. I also like firing off a mini-freeze against control decks just to turn on my future Visions of Beyond, and let me tell you, having access to Ancestral Recall against control decks is really really bad for them.

[Silent Requiem]

For what it's worth, I've played more than my fair share of Reanimator (as my tournament reports will prove), and Remand is dead against them. They are trying to "win" (ie, Iona) on turn two, by casting a series of one mana spells. Half the time that I have the Remand (and was on the play), they can simply recast that same turn anyway. The other half of the time, I was on the draw and Remand was a dead card as I only had one land out.

My Reanimator plan was to board out Remand in favour of Faerie Macabre/Surgical Extraction. But even then, while my matchup improved, it was never great. Reanimator is simply a rough matchup for us. If Reanimator players were not magically attracted to me in tournaments, I'd simply write the matchup off and focus on games we can consistently win.

Edit: I do realize that some people are talking about Remanding FoW, but the odds of having both in your opening hand are about 16%. And it still eviscerates your hand (pitching two blue cards) and dies to Daze. You cannot beat Reanimator by focusing on their reanimation or "tutoring" spells. In addition to the fact that they have more of each resource than you do counter spells, they also have more counter magic than you. Their scarce resource is actually their relevant creatures (typically one Iona and three Jingataxis) - focus on those, and you can hopefully shut them down.

[SupREME-10]

Nice deck coverage you showed up there Beethetenor.

I agree that Reanimator is tough; but they don't always get good cards in their GY now do they, Surgical can help here. Contorl vs their reanimate is decent still but the match only ever gets to about even if your lucky on the draw, etc. They are that fast and that consistent at times.

Cheers

[ravingxfantasy]

I haven't posted here in ages but happy to see that there are still some people rocking with this deck. Personally I prefer the 20 land build that Silent Requiem introduced. After a lot of testing over the last weeks I ended up with the following list:

12 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island

2 Snapcaster Mage

1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
4 Cunning Wish
1 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
3 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Peer Through Depths
3 Remand
2 Repeal
4 Reset
2 Turnabout

Sideboard

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
3 Flusterstorm
1 High Tide
1 Hunting Pack
1 Krosan grip
1 Meditate
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rebuild
3 Tangle

So far the green splash has been good to me in the 20 land build's, if I were to go back to a traditional 18 land build i'd have to cut it as wasteland would undoutably be more disruptive. I personally believe that Solidarity is in quite a good position in the European metagame at the moment but if the number of reanimator players would pick up I'd definitely opt on playing something else. For those whom haven't tried the 20 land builds, I urge you to try it out.

[ScatmanX]

Played yesterday, and despite having an awful finish, I blame it on my playing. First, the list and some considerations:

11 Islands
7 Fetches

4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Visions of Beyond
1 Peek
3 Cunning Wish
2 Brain Freeze
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
3 Snap
4 Force of Will
3 Meditate

SB:
4 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun’s Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away
1 Pact of Negation

- Snapcaster was awesome. It allowed line of plays that did not involve fizzling, and allowed going off with fewer lands.
- Visions of Beyond was bonkers. If I had played more with it before the tournament, I’d probably play it more optimally, since screwed up twice, not getting the best value of it.
- 18 Lands felt like too few, and screw lost me 2 games.
- SB was what it was. Missed Echoing Truth, Mindbreak Trap and Snap.

Round 1 – U Stasis
Game 1 – Yay, best MU! I brick on 3 lands, so attempt, while at 7 cards, Snapcaster. He counters it. 2 turns later I try it again, he counters it. I find a 4th land and try a Wish. He counters it. He lays a Jace, and get it up to 11. I’m still on 5 lands, cast 3 Spells + FoW, he counters them all. (This game I misplay with Visions. I brainfreeze myself with 1 copy only, and should have been 2-3. He countered the copy and I had only 19 cards on my grave. Next time I’ll do better)

Game 2 – I chose to draw first, and mull into a 4 land hand. I get up to 8 lands I guess, when he tried Jace. In response I played Tide, counter, Tide, ok, Impulse, ok, Meditate, counter, Reset, counter, Snapcaster, ok, Reset with 2 floating, with BF and Wish only in hand. He plays Force Spike. I let it resolve, and play B.Freeze for 30something, milling 3 Stasis. He Brainstorms but luckly don’t find the 4th one. My turn I play Tide, Wish and BF.

Game 2 – I mull to a 3 land hand with cantrips. He plays a 1/2 guy to combo with Stasis, and on his 5th or 6th turn play Stasis. I had 4 lands into play, and another on hand. Fine. I draw for 12 turns, finding 0 lands, having to discard 10+cards. He plays a Kira and beats me down to 1. (yeah…), with 10lands on the battlefield. I try Tide. He counters, FoW, counter, Reset, Counter, Reset, Counter. Had I had more lands, the rout I took game 2 (and should have taken game 1), would kill him, since I still had BF, C.Wish and Snapcaster on hand.
0-1

Round 2 – Agroo Loam.
Game 1 – He knows what I play, so T1 plays Goyf, T2 gets in for 4 (intencionally sacrificing a Mox). He gets me to , and can maybe kill me next turn. I drew 0 business, with only 1 Impulse. His eot I Snap his Goyf, and next Upkeep Turnabout his lands. He plays goyf anyway (but not Assault, that would have killed me). I draw Snapcaster. He draws and plays Assault. In response I Tide, Reset, Snapcaster and Impulse. Find a Meditate, that gets me into more gas, Snap + Snapcaster gets me ton of mana and I Stroke him out.

Game 2 – He leads with Ravens Crime, and plays it once a turn. I brick on 2 lands with 2 Tide, 2 Snapcaster, Snap, reset and Meditate. 3rd land would be bonkers (Impulse failed to find it). I discard for Crie for a few turns, and he Devastating Dreams for 2. Then I draw a land. Then another one. Unfortunately, he had a BIG Terravore by now, and a Volrath’s Stronghold, so I went to game 3, with a proper SB plan.

Game 3 – He leads with Crime again, and uses again next turn. His 3rd draw step I Surgical it. 1 Inquisition and 1 Extirpate on BS, I struggling. He gets Assault and Loam. We get to a point where I have 5 lands, and he has 5 cards in hand (1 is a goyf), and I have 8 Life. He passes. I play Tide. Ok. Play Reset. He discards 4 lands. In response to the last, I cast a 2nd Reset, untap (with 2 cards), and BF him. My last card is Visions, that finds Land, Snapcaster and Meditate. With that I’m able to find more resources to BF him again and Stroke him out.
1-1

Round 3 – Reanimator.
Game 1 – I keep FoW and Snap. FoW and Entomb, and he Seizes a Snap. I draw lands. When he Entomb again, I have Snapcaster and Lands. I recast Impulse, find a FoW, but had not U cards to pitch. Iona kills me.

Game 2 – was awesome. I Surgical Iona, and see his deck and hand, but then, his eot, I misplay again. I cast Tide, Snapcaster on Snap, and BF myself, to get 2 Visions going. The problem is, I should had milled him. The deal is, he would not go off that turn, and I would draw 6 new cards, and would be able to go off next turn. Instead, I mill myself and get all my winconditions (BF, 2 Wishes, 2 Snapcasters and Snaps) into my grave. He had Stifled the Snapcaster trigger, and I just don’t have how to win anymore. Eventually he reanimates Jin, and kills me.
1-2
I drop because my ride wanted to go =(

Looking back, I think the Reanimator MU was quite winnable with 4 Pierces and 3 Surgicals, but I misplayed badly and lost.
The deck, however, felt great, and I always felt I could win if not manascrewed.

When I buy my own Snapcasters and 3 more U fetches (only have 4), I’ll be playing this deck way more, and hopefully these rooky mistakes won’t happen again.

[benthetenor]

That's awesome, Scatman, and I could definitely see cutting a Snap for a land. That's been an option in my mind for a little while, but I haven't had gratuitous mana issues, so I haven't changed it yet. But even with that change, I've never really liked the 4th Snap in the sideboard; Echoing Truth does what you need the Snap to do 99 times out of 100.

Is there a reason why you chose Spell Pierce over Flusterstorm? Also, since you're playing a version with Snapcaster Mages, I suggest using Stroke of Genius, rather than Blue Sun's Zenith. It's easier to find if you have to stroke yourself then stroke them out if it's just sitting in your graveyard, vs. in your library.

[ScatmanX]

That's awesome, Scatman, and I could definitely see cutting a Snap for a land. That's been an option in my mind for a little while, but I haven't had gratuitous mana issues, so I haven't changed it yet. But even with that change, I've never really liked the 4th Snap in the sideboard; Echoing Truth does what you need the Snap to do 99 times out of 100.

Is there a reason why you chose Spell Pierce over Flusterstorm? Also, since you're playing a version with Snapcaster Mages, I suggest using Stroke of Genius, rather than Blue Sun's Zenith. It's easier to find if you have to stroke yourself then stroke them out if it's just sitting in your graveyard, vs. in your library.
Have not thought about that with Stroke. Interesting.
Spell Pierce was used because: A) I don't have Flusterstorm, B)There is usually burn here, and they play Priostatic Pillar. I'd like to be able to counter that. Maybe I'll go 3/1 or 2/2 when I have some.

[Vacrix]

@ravingxfantasy
I like your list. Post-board Tangles are the nuts against aggressive decks that would beat you to the combo turn. Whats the european metagame like right now?


@ScatmanX
Pretty sure you left 4 High Tide out of your build, but otherwise, I like it.

As you know Solidarity isn't a particularly forgiving deck so it makes sense that you lost to a few misplays. Stasis just seems like bad luck. Drawing for 10 turns straight without seeing lands kinda sucks.

Visions does seem pretty dam sweet with Brainfreeze, especially since you can Snapcaster them for a 1UU --> Draw 3. Thats a wealth of business spells.

Do you miss Remand or Peer Through Depths?

[ScatmanX]

Do you miss Remand or Peer Through Depths?
No. The deck felt faster with this build, and Visions drew a hell lot of cards.
PtD was not missed too, but I did found Tide pretty easily, so guess can say I was lucky on that part. But won't be playing PtD again soon...

[GoldenCid]

Maybe he didnt miss remand becuase he could use the snaps on opponent's creatures. In my experience i always liked to see remand in my hand in addition with some "control" cards like repeal or clique. I got used to wait until the last moment for going off. I feel rare with the concept of a "fast solidarity" because it cant be as fast like ANT (for example) at the time it goes off consistently.

[ScatmanX]

Maybe he didnt miss remand becuase he could use the snaps on opponent's creatures. In my experience i always liked to see remand in my hand in addition with some "control" cards like repeal or clique. I got used to wait until the last moment for going off. I feel rare with the concept of a "fast solidarity" because it cant be as fast like ANT (for example) at the time it goes off consistently.
Yes. Snapping my opponent Goyf did buy me a turn, and with Snacpcaster, could be 2/3 turns (happened often while testing against UWR Tempo).
Also, Snap was good against Reanimator. Unfortunately he saw my hand, but had he gotten Gin-Gitaxias early G1 or G2, Snap would have solved the problem for a while.

[Vacrix]

Snapping the opponents creatures can be a good application of Snap, but Snapping Goyf usually doesn't make much sense. We only play Instants and Lands, and occasionally Snapcaster. Its rarely bigger than a 2/3 when I play against Goyf, occassionally a 3/4. I guess Snapcaster itself can help you delay for a little longer as a chump blocker. Remand does have the advantage of stopping key spells for the turn such as SnT, Reanimation, etc.

If you want to go balls to the wall on speed, I met a guy IRL that foregoes Force for Pact of Negation. Snap/Snapcaster certainly enables more turn 3 wins so I can see card disadvantage being a factor in those hands.

How often did you want the Turnabouts Scatman? Did you ever want the 4th Snap?

[benthetenor]

If you want to go balls to the wall on speed, I met a guy IRL that foregoes Force for Pact of Negation. Snap/Snapcaster certainly enables more turn 3 wins so I can see card disadvantage being a factor in those hands.


Was it a black guy named Jeff? I can't imagine there are a whole lot of other people out there trying out Snap versions of Solidarity with Pact of Negation.

I tried out the Pact myself, but found myself just losing to combo decks. Force really, really sucks at protecting the combo (at least, in comparison to Pact of Negation) but it buys a lot of time against decks that are legit faster than us, which with the Snap version is mostly combo. I played in a tournament a few weeks ago with Pacts where I went 1-2 drop against Reanimator (actually won the first game, couldn't win 2 or 3, super frustrating), Maverick (beat it, obv) and TPS. I directly attributed having Pact of Negation instead of Force of Will to two different game losses, which would have won me each of the two rounds that I lost. So I'm not going back, though that may be due to sheer frustration, rather than actual statistical backing. But the theory is sound.

In theory, against permission, Pact of Negation is awesome because it costs nothing to Snapcaster back and you're going to skip your next X turns with Meditate as it is, but I'm not sure that that's specifically what the Force of Will spot is for. I mean, it helps in defending the combo, but by the simple fact that we're instant speed, we can get around a lot of permission just by playing correctly. But I think it's mostly there to defend against sick openings from opponents that are faster than us, which is something that no other card in the game can do.

I will say that it's incredibly satisfying to use Pact on an enemy Force of Will. It's just such a beating!

[benthetenor]

Have not thought about that with Stroke. Interesting.
Spell Pierce was used because: A) I don't have Flusterstorm, B)There is usually burn here, and they play Priostatic Pillar. I'd like to be able to counter that. Maybe I'll go 3/1 or 2/2 when I have some.

I like Flusterstorm simply because it can act like Mindbreak Trap against a crap load of counterspells, which is something that's nice to have access to in a version of Solidarity that's dropped Remands. Pyrostatic Pillar is really rough though, I agree, and might be a good enough reason alone to run the Spell Pierce, though if your meta were that heavy with Pyrostatic Pillars, I'd probably opt for 1-2 Hydroblast.

[ravingxfantasy]

@ Vacrix, in my area I see a lot of Esperblade (the more controllish version), Stoneblade, some Delver and lots of Maverick and/or similar decks. Tangle so far has been great since the high land count allows you to wait with fetching until you really need to cast Tangle, makings wastelands hurt a bit less.

I'm personally not really a big fan of snap in this deck but that might just be my playstyle, as I personally believe that if I would want to combo fast i'd be better off by either going for a small hunting pack or more principally just by playing a different deck. With the printing of snapcaster mage the deck feels so much more resillient, epsecially when youre just slowly playing out the game against control decks and stockpiling threats in your grave.

[SupREME-10]

I run my deck closer to ravingxfantasy's version as I also don't run any maindeck Snap.

My thinking was that if I am relying on snapcaster to do anything more than just replay one instant, then I am also opening the door to creature removal that makes the snap fizzle etc.

I do see how Snap can bag you more turn 3 win options; but I prefer to live with the turn 4 consistency as it once again keeps my opponent out of the picture other than if he has control (which will always be an issue).

I went 3-0 at legacy night at the local; but the toughest match I had was R/B goblins as their clock is just that fast sometimes.

[ScatmanX]

How often did you want the Turnabouts Scatman? Did you ever want the 4th Snap?
I was glad I had some Turnabouts in the main, since we don't always find Resets, and Snap are not reliable all the time.
The one on the side was usefull once against Loam, and if there was no untapper there, I'd have lost.


I like Flusterstorm simply because it can act like Mindbreak Trap against a crap load of counterspells, which is something that's nice to have access to in a version of Solidarity that's dropped Remands. Pyrostatic Pillar is really rough though, I agree, and might be a good enough reason alone to run the Spell Pierce, though if your meta were that heavy with Pyrostatic Pillars, I'd probably opt for 1-2 Hydroblast.
Fluster would have been golden against the Stasis player, and guess better against Reanimator too, since Snapcasting it is better than Pierce.


My thinking was that if I am relying on snapcaster to do anything more than just replay one instant, then I am also opening the door to creature removal that makes the snap fizzle etc.
This was something that I was worried about too (since happened when I played Spring Tide), but it was never an issue in my testing. Really, we can easily play around that...

[benthetenor]

I run my deck closer to ravingxfantasy's version as I also don't run any maindeck Snap.

My thinking was that if I am relying on snapcaster to do anything more than just replay one instant, then I am also opening the door to creature removal that makes the snap fizzle etc.

I do see how Snap can bag you more turn 3 win options; but I prefer to live with the turn 4 consistency as it once again keeps my opponent out of the picture other than if he has control (which will always be an issue).

I went 3-0 at legacy night at the local; but the toughest match I had was R/B goblins as their clock is just that fast sometimes.

If you're running Remand, then you should be better against Control. Either way, control really isn't an issue. If they're not tapping out for anything, then you've got all day long, which is absolutely going to benefit you. If anything, the reason to play this deck is a metagame infested with control decks. If you're not being pressured, then there's always the double Brain Freeze plan, which is solid because it doesn't matter what they counter.

If you guys are having trouble against control, you should read the entire thread, and the thread before it. This deck is inherently strong against counterspells, especially weak ones like Spell Pierce and Daze, which is primarily what's getting seen today. Sure, you'll occasionally come up against Counterspell guy, but it's highly likely that he's not going to have anything to pressure you with, which means you can afford to wait around. Adding Snap doesn't remove your ability to wait and make land drops, it just gives you outs to turn-3 aggro decks. And in those long games, it's not really worse than Remand, since you can use it to buyback Snapcaster Mages to buyback spells, which is what you'd be using Remand for, anyway.

[SupREME-10]

@benthetenor I hear what your saying, and Control matches were not an issue (as you stated) as you can make more land drops, palm some control of your own, and actually go off under their counter to just get more storm count from them anyway.

I faced R/b Goblins in the first round, and the guy as pretty well forcing me to attempt and turn 3-4 combo or die. First game he did the Mountain, Lacky, Go... I got lucky and beat him on turn 4 but only because I played first so he was only beginning his turn 4, and I happened to get a Reset on my previous Draw.
4 Islands went into High Tide, Snapcaster --> High Tide, Peek (gets me a Meditate), Reset, Meditate --> winning cards as it got pretty silly from there actually.
Next game he hammered me before I got to 4 lands.
Last game I got a decent hand a drew well to go off turn 4 again; but his clock would have had me if I had allowed him to continue is turn.

I do run 1 Snap in my Sideboard but left it there as I figured him for the creature removal on the snapcaster, I hadn't really considered the option for late combo usage; but I did do it in game three, using drawn cunning wish to get the Snap (having control in hand by then and mana available). This allowed me to Snap the snapcaster to seal the deal on him (targeted a Meditate) and he scooped.

So don't get me wrong... I wasn't saying that Snap was bad, I was saying that my thinking was possibly a little shaky on paper as real game experience showed that Snap is excellent even around removal, etc. I will be shoe horn'ing 2x Snap into my deck alongside the 3x snapcaster... but what to remove... probably the Opt/Peek section get a trimming.

Thanks.

Oh and my other matches were vs TES which was weird; but actually easier than I thought since he didn't get turn 1 god hands so 3-4 mana was not really an issue as my control stalled him long enough for me to go 2-0 past him.

Third match was vs a crappy homebrew deck that was very sub par; but the player is learning and building as they trade/buy into things... It was a Sligh deck, but considering 3x Ball Lightning over Goblin Guides it really was sub par.

I also Maverick, Dredge, Pox/Gate, RUG delver, and Stoneblade up on site. And I can tell you from experience that I was happy to not face the Pox deck (bad match for us).

[benthetenor]

That's a lot of good stuff, nice work!

I've been testing the version with 3 Snap and 18 lands and it feels a lot smoother in a lot of ways. Like I said earlier, it's not a move I felt like I had to make, but I'm rather surprised at how much easier finding lands is with just one more. Statistically it should only come up a handful of times in a hundred games, so maybe I've just hit some outliers, but it definitely feels like it's a lot easier to make land drops. I'll keep testing it.

[Seraphus]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
12 [P3] Island (1)

// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [LG] Reset
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [US] Turnabout
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [TE] Meditate
2 [GP] Repeal
2 [UL] Snap
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
4 [M12] Visions of Beyond
2 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [VI] Three Wishes
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 3 [PLC] Piracy Charm

[benthetenor]

Hey Seraphus, I thought you were done with the Source. Good to see you!


Some questions about your list:

Why Thirst for Knowledge? If you need a 3 mana spell that puts one card in hand and 2 in the grumps, wouldn't Intuition just be better?

I thought you hated Visions of Beyond, but now you're playing even more than I am?

Is Piracy Charm relevant? The only guy I can think of that we care about (that it actually deals with) is Thalia. I guess it gets Mother of Runes, too.

Only one Brain Freeze anywhere? That seems particularly odd given that you're running a full playset of Visions of Beyond.


I'm just super curious since I know you put a lot of thought and work into this deck, so more than anything, I'm curious how and why we've come to different ideas of what the optimal list looks like.

[Olesch]

Welcome back! Long time no see :laugh:

Maybe you can spread some thoughts about your list and how it has benefitted you?


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
12 [P3] Island (1)

// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [LG] Reset
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [US] Turnabout
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [TE] Meditate
2 [GP] Repeal
2 [UL] Snap
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
4 [M12] Visions of Beyond
2 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [VI] Three Wishes
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 3 [PLC] Piracy Charm

[Seraphus]

I am back because i see that there r people with good thoughts on solidarity, and that is stimulating enough... No more strange solutions (sorceries mixed with instants etc).

In short manner: this list is experimentation - specially the VoB, Thirst, etc....

FAQs: (there maybe other justifications for my choices but I may not remember them at the moment LOL)

3 (not any other quantity) Snapcaster: no1 can't deny that it's the most powerful add to solidarity but the role it performs must be defined - so, snapcaster is an element of balance an consistence... it blocks it does everything mention before but the deck cannot be dependent on snapcaster nor in snapcaster cmc (for us the cmc of snapcaster is always (90% of the time) 2+x). And we have Snap that re-utilize the mage trigger. (3 and not 4 leave u room to another card).

2 Snap: 3 is to way higher quantity and i like the ratio Snapcaster = X and Snap= X-1. Why 3 is too much? Snap doesn't draw cards. There's a balance required between the mage and this card, after all this card is like a duplicant of mage.

4 VoB and 2 TFK: this two are a couple, TFK is here just because of VoB and because it's the only card drawer that allow us to recycle 3 cards and filling the grave to later game/mid-combo. Why Vob? It's like cheating: my favourite card 1 cmc drawer was Opt, but think like this haven't we enough choices to do while playing this deck? And even if you master this deck, earlier in the game can you say with 100% sure that every choice you make is right? No, there's no way to understand that this early in the game, even if you are digging for lands. So we cheat a little and play with VoB, that doesn't requires us to choose anything in early game and that in late game/mid-combo with snapcaster it works well enough.
TKF vs Intuition: Intuition just leave u with 1 new card TFK gives u 3 new cards without giving info to your opponent, yes intuition gives u the card u need but u have lost to grave or to snapcaster the other 2 cards idk if it's that good...

I might think on replace TFK for Three Wishes but Three wishes only work after turn 3 TFK works on turn 3...

Piracy Charm: Confidant, Snapcaster, Vendilion Clique, Thalia, Noble, Dryad Harbor, Mother of Runes, Delver, Lackey, Grim lavamancer... The thing is it kills!

And finally the BF: i probably will put one on sb but first i have to find the equilibrium on my list (LOL) so i can find out what to remove from sb. BF + VoB: if u play Vob just for the 3 draw it wont work and using a card to make other card good is a waste, so i prefer to use VoB as a 1 cmc card > draw 1 > later snapcaster draw 3 if needed.

[GoldenCid]

@Sepharus: So you decided for a non-snapcaster list or a snapcaster list?

[benthetenor]

I guess in my experience, it's pretty difficult to get Visions of Beyond to go off without using Brain Freeze; that being said, my friend Jeff was running a full 4 without any Brain Freezes at all (which is no longer the case, since I convinced him that Brain Freeze is nuts), so it's not the first I've heard of that. Thirst for Knowledge does do all of that, and I guess going +3 in the yard is a big number. Maybe I need to test it, but I think I would rather just have another Brain Freeze than a Thirst for Knowledge since it's the kill condition and always turns on Visions of Beyond, and is more or less uncounterable. And makes Brainstorm nuts. And costs less. Thirst does seem like a really good card for the deck, though. Just not sure I like it more than extra Snapcaster Mages. Maybe not though, as cutting some number of Snap/Snapcaster Mage for Thirst for Knowledge can help keep the combo going in the face of Graveyard hate. It's probably worth testing.

I am, however, glad to see you taking up Visions of Beyond. Card is insane.

As far as Piracy Charm goes though, I'm still unsure. It kills all of those guys, sure, but for the most part, once they're in play, they've done about all that they're going to do to me. It's better to kill the Clique or enemy Snapcaster Mage than to not kill it, but it seems like sideboarding in removal for those guys isn't a great plan since it's probably going to slow you down a lot. Something like Snap seems better since you can bounce those guys if you have to, but otherwise, you can use it to help you win faster. Now, if we're talking about things like Thalia or Ethersworn Canonist, then killing those guys actually is a step that has to happen to combo off. It does seem good as a meta-answer to the whole deck, given that you're seriously hampering their development, but I'm just not sure whether or not you should just win, rather than mess around with killing their x/1s.

[Seraphus]

Piracy charm: I don't really have an answer LOL just that it kills and you r fixing on the snap but remember the same creatures u bounce r the creatures that have trigger habilities that screw us... I found myself think on that - why kill this now when i could combo? - and many times i find the answer myself, although I sometimes question that answer (seams that I found myself in a loop :rolleyes: ), but the answer I give myself on that is this: vs counter war since remand isn't here anymore and discard or burn are very much arround u need to know how to obligate them to spend their counters (notice that midrange decks r getting better: harder counters big presure). So, what do I mean? Time is what we need and boucing is no longer an option, for one thing only Repeal seams effective in that chapter, because it replace itself! It's very important for you to understand that the amount of draw in this deck is vital and delicate.
For last, when u fight decks like UR or UWB, FOW is a 2 per 1 situation and u will sideout at least 2 of them since Flusterstorm is clearly better (- in GP Amsterdam I simply just bought my 3rd because it was the right card to use) so without Fow the game will be something like: we trow them bait that they really need to counter (normally this bait is Meditate) and they will loose cards. Please notice one thing: This Bait thing needs alot of training! But how can we just trow them things and survive the attacks? That's the real deal isnt it?

I normally side this:

-2 Fow; -1 High Tide; -2 TFK; + 3 fluster + 2 Charms...

TFK and VoB: u wont notice many differences at frist. Use VoB like a ciclying card (thats what I do). Think of this cards in this way: TFK + VoB AND Mage (later on). It's like u need to build the foundations before building a house, if u know what i mean...

Why isnt BF good?

At the moment u will play it: 6 cards in hand 1 is bf and other VoB.
1- its not an independent play u need storm
2- 3 mana
3- after u play the bf and the VoB if successfully you will get this: 4+3 new, now look at this u'll start to outline your strategy from the begin of the match u play VoB as a 1 cmc = 1 draw, eventually u will play TFK: 6 cards if successful u will get 3 new cards but your hand will stay with the same number of cards 6, grave filled by 3 (TFK + 2 discarded) so u will start to regulate the pace of the game its a matter of strategy and u will see that along combo u wont need to use flashback on meditate but u can use it on VoB, as i told: Snapcaster is an element of equilibrium :tongue:

i'll probably change my sb: -1 piracy charm + 1 BF.... IDK...

[GoldenCid]

Love the brainstorming! What it can be noticed at first glance is that VoB is not sinergic with flash of insight and snapcaster mage in a lesser extent.
TFK sounds good but i'm not pretty sure if i want to "loose" 2 cards to increase in 3 my yard for VoB before going off. 3 wishes comes to mind in this point.
I understand that 3w is great as 4th/5th meditate during we are going off but it's not so good for shaping your hand pre combo. TKF does i guess and during the combo you can discard useless lands...

Edit: Other thoughts came to my mind. My testing showed that VoB gives us 3 cards during combo, 80% of times, it's literaly an Ancestrl Recall while you go off. Do you think that TFK significally helps us to make VoB clearly different from Opt?

[Seraphus]

Love the brainstorming! What it can be noticed at first glance is that VoB is not sinergic with flash of insight and snapcaster mage in a lesser extent.
TFK sounds good but i'm not pretty sure if i want to "loose" 2 cards to increase in 3 my yard for VoB before going off. 3 wishes comes to mind in this point.
I understand that 3w is great as 4th/5th meditate during we are going off but it's not so good for shaping your hand pre combo. TKF does i guess and during the combo you can discard useless lands...

Edit: Other thoughts came to my mind. My testing showed that VoB gives us 3 cards during combo, 80% of times, it's literaly an Ancestrl Recall while you go off. Do you think that TFK significally helps us to make VoB clearly different from Opt?

yes i do:

4 VoB and 2 TFK: this two are a couple, TFK is here just because of VoB and because it's the only card drawer that allow us to recycle 3 cards and filling the grave to later game/mid-combo. Why Vob? It's like cheating: my favourite card 1 cmc drawer was Opt, but think like this haven't we enough choices to do while playing this deck? And even if you master this deck, earlier in the game can you say with 100% sure that every choice you make is right? No, there's no way to understand that this early in the game, even if you are digging for lands. So we cheat a little and play with VoB, that doesn't requires us to choose anything in early game and that in late game/mid-combo with snapcaster it works well enough.

[KZhang]

i'm on the other side of this argument though. i think BF is actually very useful even if you aren't using it for the kill.

Brain freeze powers VoB, allows you to mill yourself you find a FoI, or if you have a Snapcaster in hand, it also becomes a pseudo tutor.

One of my personal favorite play has been, mill you for 6 storms, VoB (draw 3), snapcaster VoB (draw 3) for 4 mana.

Brain freeze is also a powerful enabler in the deck. I like keeping a 5-6 count brain freeze on the stack, and after brainstorming allowing the next storm copy to get rid of the lands i put on the top of my library, then finally remanding the original copy when i need to to finish them off.

i currently run 2 copies of BF in my MD, and im quite happy with that number. 3 would be a little too clunky.

[Seraphus]

Listen, that's quite cool and all but (there's always a but! LOL): how many times do u find yourself using that for getting advantaged in the game? Well idk, but i guess never since that requires not only too much resources, but also specific conditions that doesnt necessary come together, u said it yourself: 6 storm and specific cards, notice this: your 6 storm + VoB (7 storm) + Snapcaster (8 storm and 3 new cards in your hand) why not Flashback BF (9+6 storm)? So after all 1 BF is enough (1 in main 1 in sb).

Now i can give u an opportunity to justify 2 BF: Counterbalance and the trigger-stack effect... My answer to that is patience (because its not an easy trick) and in post sb side in the BF or just pick it up as soon as u can with C. Wish...

Look, find my older posts and u will see that no1 would stick to the 2 BF MD more than me, but with Snapcaster why do u need more bf?

[Blue]

Hey all, I'm just starting out with this deck and was wondering what everyone thought about the list I've been practicing with. Should I change anything about it?

MAIN DECK -
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Thought Scour
2 Turnabout
4 Cunning Wish
2 Three Wishes
4 High Tide
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Intuition
1 Echoing Truth
4 Meditate
1 Flusterstorm
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
1 Snap

12 Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand

SIDEBOARD -
1 Three Wishes
1 Comandeer
1 Twincast
1 Cackling Counterpart
1 Brain Freeze
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Snap
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
4 Leyline of the Void

[KZhang]

Listen, that's quite cool and all but (there's always a but! LOL): how many times do u find yourself using that for getting advantaged in the game? Well idk, but i guess never since that requires not only too much resources, but also specific conditions that doesnt necessary come together, u said it yourself: 6 storm and specific cards, notice this: your 6 storm + VoB (7 storm) + Snapcaster (8 storm and 3 new cards in your hand) why not Flashback BF (9+6 storm)? So after all 1 BF is enough (1 in main 1 in sb).

Now i can give u an opportunity to justify 2 BF: Counterbalance and the trigger-stack effect... My answer to that is patience (because its not an easy trick) and in post sb side in the BF or just pick it up as soon as u can with C. Wish...

Look, find my older posts and u will see that no1 would stick to the 2 BF MD more than me, but with Snapcaster why do u need more bf?

the 6 storm count was just an example, and not that difficult to achieve. the point is, previously, brain freeze was effectively a dead card earlier until it was time for the kill, which was why cutting down to 1 was perhaps the right choice.

My argument is, if BF powers up VoB so much more consistently than any other means (even in high tide i am stuggling to hit 20 in gy without bf) and has the opportunity to turn your ScM into tutors, doesn't it warrant more than 1 slot md? it has now become an enabler on top of being a finisher.

[Seraphus]

Nah its not true Snapcaster doesn't tutor anything even if u have one of each card in your grave (less of X on deck more of X on grave, use meditate, that's the primary draw engine of the deck, and u'll see that). Snapcaster is a recycler not a tutor, fell free to disagree but....

Let me put the things this way: U have to combo to draw 3 cards... that doesnt sound that much resilient i am right? Moreover u need to successfully cast VoB and/or Snapcaster...

The other thing is while u try to set up VoB as a Recall as soon as possible, I don't try to do that. For me the purpose for Vob is: early game 1cmc drop = 1 draw, the Ancestral thing is only for stability and to lower the fizzle rate...

Ah and Bf doesn't draw cards nor works as a mechanical card. (Before in the past long lost it would interact with FoI but it was very risky) What I meant is that this tricks with bf are solutions that u need to know but not strong plays... They are resources, and this is why solidarity and non of the other decks provides: a full pack of different solutions!

[Vacrix]

I actually really like the idea of playing 4 Meditate in the maindeck. Sometimes in the spell chain, we find ourselves playing Cunning Wish for 2U into Meditate for 2U... meaning we spent 4UU to draw 4 cards. Maybe its better to run more copies of Meditate in the maindeck that way we have a good chance of naturally drawing them.. and therefore Snapcasting them to make 3UU Meditates, cheaper than a Cunning Wish Meditate. Its too bad they errata's the wishes or else we could flashback something and that grab it with Cunning Wish (so broken).

@Three Wishes
I played it for a while and it was meh. I think Snapcaster is way better. It doubles as a mana producer, a kill condition, and a business spell. Its about time we ran 4. There's no reason to be afraid of removal because you don't HAVE to Snap it, and if they opponent does try to play a removal spell, you still get to untap 2 lands and it adds +1 to the storm count.

I agree with Seraphus about Brainfreeze. One in the MD is enough. Anymore than that and you can draw it too early before you can actually get a spell chain going.

[KZhang]

i'm not quite sure i get your points. so i apologize in advance in case i miss them.


Nah its not true Snapcaster doesn't tutor anything even if u have one of each card in your grave (less of X on deck more of X on grave, use meditate, that's the primary draw engine of the deck, and u'll see that). Snapcaster is a recycler not a tutor, fell free to disagree but....

doesn't tutor work the same way? less of X in the deck, more of X in your hand.


Let me put the things this way: U have to combo to draw 3 cards... that doesnt sound that much resilient i am right? Moreover u need to successfully cast VoB and/or Snapcaster...

you will need to combo off regardless to win. Just that setting up this way, which again is not difficult, you gain an additional avenue for card advantage. You will also get to brainfreeze earlier, to turn your brainstorms into ACalls as well, without having to worry that you need to find a remand for the BF on that stack.


The other thing is while u try to set up VoB as a Recall as soon as possible, I don't try to do that. For me the purpose for Vob is: early game 1cmc drop = 1 draw, the Ancestral thing is only for stability and to lower the fizzle rate...

I use VoB for the same purpose (simple cantrip) as well early game. I'm just curious, while testing, how often did you manage to VoB for draw 3 w/o casting a BF? usually if i manage to storm for 18 (assuming with 2 fetches), VoB doesnt really matter anymore. i suppose with your list you still have TfK as an additional enabler.


Ah and Bf doesn't draw cards nor works as a mechanical card. (Before in the past long lost it would interact with FoI but it was very risky) What I meant is that this tricks with bf are solutions that u need to know but not strong plays... They are resources, and this is why solidarity and non of the other decks provides: a full pack of different solutions!

In my opinion, BF and Snapcaster is the new FoI for Solidarity.

[Vacrix]

Snapcaster isn't really the same thing as a tutor... take as an example what happens when your opponent removes your graveyard from the game, or Surgical Extraction's the juiciest target.

In regards to VoB... if you have to Brainfreeze yourself to continue the combo.. you're probably doing something wrong either in your build or play style. Yeah yeah everyone used to play FoI and do that all the time.. but the very reason you had to do that anyway because FoI is a POS that you can't even use before the combo turn. If you were playing less copies of Brainfreeze and FoI and more copies of something else, you'd simply do a different line of play. I really don't like this Brainfreeze on yourself line of play. You could potentially mill a lot of important cards and not win. It should be a last ditch effort kind of play that happens rarely. Just play Peer Through Depths and find a Meditate. Peer can be used to set up, and will dig just as deep as an early FoI and for cheaper because you won't have to hard cast it before you play the cheaper Flashback cost. Peer also has synergy with Snapcaster, unlike FoI. Digging 10 cards deep for 2 cards... for 6 mana isn't that bad. You could find a Meditate and a Reset with that much dig power.

I'd say FoI was outclassed by Peer Through Depths a looong time ago, but old habits die hard, just like old tech with people that play oldschool combo decks. Honestly... you shouldn't be BF + Snapcaster to continue the combo itself; that combination should be a kill condition only except on a rare occassion. Run fewer copies of Brainfreeze and you won't find yourself stuck with a line of play like that, especially one thats prone to graveyard hate.



Also... how good is Thoughtscour over Opt? I can see the synergy with Brainstorm.. and potentially VoB and Snapcaster.

[KZhang]

Snapcaster isn't really the same thing as a tutor... take as an example what happens when your opponent removes your graveyard from the game, or Surgical Extraction's the juiciest target.

agreed. but unless it's an extirpate, you still have control of the stack. and again, by the time you use a snapcaster mid combo, everything you want to cast would usually already be in the GY.


In regards to VoB... if you have to Brainfreeze yourself to continue the combo.. you're probably doing something wrong either in your build or play style.

why do you have you BF yourself? unless it's an desperate situation, your BF should always target your opp. It just that the BF will not lethal at that point in time. and dont have to resolve the entire BF, just enough to get your VoB active.

the BF snapcaster scenario was just another example of how BF can be used as an enabler in a bad situation. If used correctly, it is never a bad card.

the problem is, because we have always been finishing off of the combo with 1 large BF, we have not been considering the usefulness of having multiple BF.


Yeah yeah everyone used to play FoI and do that all the time.. but the very reason you had to do that anyway because FoI is a POS that you can't even use before the combo turn. If you were playing less copies of Brainfreeze and FoI and more copies of something else, you'd simply do a different line of play. I really don't like this Brainfreeze on yourself line of play. You could potentially mill a lot of important cards and not win. It should be a last ditch effort kind of play that happens rarely. Just play Peer Through Depths and find a Meditate. Peer can be used to set up, and will dig just as deep as an early FoI and for cheaper because you won't have to hard cast it before you play the cheaper Flashback cost. Peer also has synergy with Snapcaster, unlike FoI. Digging 10 cards deep for 2 cards... for 6 mana isn't that bad. You could find a Meditate and a Reset with that much dig power.

I'd say FoI was outclassed by Peer Through Depths a looong time ago, but old habits die hard, just like old tech with people that play oldschool combo decks. Honestly... you shouldn't be BF + Snapcaster to continue the combo itself; that combination should be a kill condition only except on a rare occassion. Run fewer copies of Brainfreeze and you won't find yourself stuck with a line of play like that, especially one thats prone to graveyard hate.

If there are better or more consistent ways for fueling a VoB than a mid combo brain freeze, let me know.

thanks for the condescending tone. appreciate it. especially when it shows you didnt understand my points.

[Seraphus]

Thoughtscour sucks :rolleyes: because of this: Goyf, Mongose, Snapcaster, knight...

U dont need to apologize :tongue: I'll explain better...

U said: Less of X in the deck More of X in the Hand, i said grave instead of hand... U assume that Snapy will resolve his trigger but that doesn't happen all the time... I for example played vs a guy that uses the Scaveging Ooze and he just removed the target of snapcaster...

I should mention that TFK also works good with Snapcaster...

Look at this: how many counters does your op need to disrupt u with the BF+Vob play if he doesn't want u to draw? 1. And how many for any other play with two draw cards cards? 2...

U can play the same trick that u usually do with the 2 bf, but u only need one BF, after all snapcaster can flashback BF... right?

[Vacrix]

By the time there are enough cards in your graveyard to activate a VoB, you should just be targetting your opponent with BF and Remand/Snapcaster it. I honestly don't see much reason for VoB. Its a card thats flashy when you are already winning but it doesn't really pull you out of situations that you'd otherwise lose. I played with it a bunch and didn't find it particularly helpful as business spell until I really didn't need one anymore.

Even if you still have control of the stack, you lose a Snapcaster.. unless you Snap Snapcaster in response and then replay it and then continue responding to the Surgical. The point is that its not a tutor but it functions like one when you have a full graveyard.

We have considered the usefulness of multiple BF's. Multiple means you can make smaller spell chains with Remands/Snapcasters into early BF's, perhaps without even playing a single Meditate; however, when you run too many of these cards, issues can arise when these cards clog up your hand and prevent you from sculpting. For example, if you run x2 BF over x2 Peer Through Depths, there will be games where you can't sculpt enough to find High Tide because you are stuck with extra copies of Brainfreeze you don't need in your hand. Honestly, set up is what's key about this deck. The faster you can setup and sculpt reliably to win on turn 4 (ideal combo turn, 3 is unreasonable and doesn't happen often) the better. Cards like Brainfreeze don't help you sculpt. Once you are inside the combo going off, you shouldn't have much trouble getting to a win. At least I know I don't in my experience.

There really isn't a better way to fuel a VoB mid combo than Brainfreeze. The point is that isn't a reliable line of play until you can already win with something else so its relatively pointless to pursue that line of play unless you want a bunch of cool points for playing Ancestral Recall in Legacy Solidarity. Honestly, how many games did you pursue this line of play when you couldn't win in any other way? I played with VoB a bunch and VoB didn't win me a single game I couldn't have won without it. Just sayn..

In regards to my tone and your points... I understood them, and please excuse any condescension. I'm honestly just sick of hearing about FoI and kind of starting raging when I see people bring it up. In regards to VoB... I don't see it being viable in current builds. I'm actually more interested in Thoughtscour, when played it gets you 3 cards into the graveyard just from playing 1, add in say 3 fetchlands, and High Tide, Meditate, Reset, Brainstorm, etc. it wouldn't be hard to get a mass of cards into the graveyard quickly I'd say thats a good method when compared to Brainfreeze, especially when Thoughtscour compliments Brainstorm so nicely when you want to get rid of lands during the combo turn.

[Seraphus]

"Why Vob? It's like cheating: my favourite card 1 cmc drawer was Opt, but think like this haven't we enough choices to do while playing this deck? And even if you master this deck, earlier in the game can you say with 100% sure that every choice you make is right? No, there's no way to understand that this early in the game, even if you are digging for lands. So we cheat a little and play with VoB, that doesn't requires us to choose anything in early game and that in late game/mid-combo with snapcaster it works well enough."

"TFK and VoB: u wont notice many differences at frist. Use VoB like a ciclying card (thats what I do). Think of this cards in this way: TFK + VoB AND Mage (later on). It's like u need to build the foundations before building a house, if u know what i mean..."


"For me the purpose for Vob is: early game 1cmc drop = 1 draw, the Ancestral thing is only for stability and to lower the fizzle rate..."

This is why the VoB, i can point out one or two other reasons....

[KZhang]

U dont need to apologize :tongue: I'll explain better...

U said: Less of X in the deck More of X in the Hand, i said grave instead of hand... U assume that Snapy will resolve his trigger but that doesn't happen all the time... I for example played vs a guy that uses the Scaveging Ooze and he just removed the target of snapcaster...

i see your point there.



I should mention that TFK also works good with Snapcaster...

true.


Look at this: how many counters does your op need to disrupt u with the BF+Vob play if he doesn't want u to draw? 1. And how many for any other play with two draw cards cards? 2...

If he lets you set up just to counter VoB, wont he be in a very bad shape already? arent there more impt things to counter, like high tide or reset?


U can play the same trick that u usually do with the 2 bf, but u only need one BF, after all snapcaster can flashback BF... right?[/QUOTE]

that is true too. when i was playing, ScM was mostly used to pull back meditates, VoBs, resets and tide. only on rare occasion did i use it for BF. i guess if i tightened my play, this could work too.

ok. much clearer. Thanks!

[Vacrix]

"Why Vob? It's like cheating: my favourite card 1 cmc drawer was Opt, but think like this haven't we enough choices to do while playing this deck? And even if you master this deck, earlier in the game can you say with 100% sure that every choice you make is right? No, there's no way to understand that this early in the game, even if you are digging for lands. So we cheat a little and play with VoB, that doesn't requires us to choose anything in early game and that in late game/mid-combo with snapcaster it works well enough."

"TFK and VoB: u wont notice many differences at frist. Use VoB like a ciclying card (thats what I do). Think of this cards in this way: TFK + VoB AND Mage (later on). It's like u need to build the foundations before building a house, if u know what i mean..."


"For me the purpose for Vob is: early game 1cmc drop = 1 draw, the Ancestral thing is only for stability and to lower the fizzle rate..."

This is why the VoB, i can point out one or two other reasons....
Setting up in the early turns is a great reason to run Opt over VoB. This deck doesn't give a shit about the late-game/midcombo because its designed to win after that point anyway. Getting to the point at which you can even combo is important or the late-game and mid-combo don't matter at all. Sure it lowers the fizzle rate once you are in the combo, but what if you can't even get to combo because you couldn't find all the pieces you need to go off? Opt is better at finding combo pieces. Its more valuable than ensuring you don't fizzle once you are spell chaining. I'd say just be more careful when you are in the combo turn, take your time, and you won't fizz. Honestly, Peer Through the Depths really helps you to avoid fizzing. +X Impulses that search a card deeper goes a long way when you need something to help the spell chain continue. I mean how often do you guys fizz? Its a rare occurence for me. I find myself dying before I even get to combo far more often than I do losing to the deck giving me shitty draws. Given that, I support the sculpting and set up rather than combo consistency.

[KZhang]

By the time there are enough cards in your graveyard to activate a VoB, you should just be targetting your opponent with BF and Remand/Snapcaster it. I honestly don't see much reason for VoB. Its a card thats flashy when you are already winning but it doesn't really pull you out of situations that you'd otherwise lose. I played with it a bunch and didn't find it particularly helpful as business spell until I really didn't need one anymore.

the problem i had with Solidarity was that it didnt feel that i had enough draw power. quite often, i ended with with a hand that only had 1 draw/dig card left, and i needed it to hit something else or fizzle. VoB just happened to be that perfect mid combo draw spell, the downside of which, is that it requires some set up to function as an ACall. All the other times, it can still function as a cantrip.


Even if you still have control of the stack, you lose a Snapcaster.. unless you Snap Snapcaster in response and then replay it and then continue responding to the Surgical. The point is that its not a tutor but it functions like one when you have a full graveyard.

agreed. which was what i was trying to say. it can function as a psuedo tutor. and you dont need a full graveyard, because all the spells you would want to flashback would likely already be cast in the beginning of your combo chain.


We have considered the usefulness of multiple BF's. Multiple means you can make smaller spell chains with Remands/Snapcasters into early BF's, perhaps without even playing a single Meditate; however, when you run too many of these cards, issues can arise when these cards clog up your hand and prevent you from sculpting. For example, if you run x2 BF over x2 Peer Through Depths, there will be games where you can't sculpt enough to find High Tide because you are stuck with extra copies of Brainfreeze you don't need in your hand. Honestly, set up is what's key about this deck. The faster you can setup and sculpt reliably to win on turn 4 (ideal combo turn, 3 is unreasonable and doesn't happen often) the better. Cards like Brainfreeze don't help you sculpt. Once you are inside the combo going off, you shouldn't have much trouble getting to a win. At least I know I don't in my experience.

IMO, there are 2 major part to playing this this deck. 1st, as you mentioned, is the sculpting. 2nd, is the combo chain. i think the main basis of the argument is that you are more focused on the sculpting part, whereas i'm more focused on how to keep the combo chain going. to me, having an additional BF powers up brainstorms, VOB, and makes it more likely that i can use cunning wish for something else.


There really isn't a better way to fuel a VoB mid combo than Brainfreeze. The point is that isn't a reliable line of play until you can already win with something else so its relatively pointless to pursue that line of play unless you want a bunch of cool points for playing Ancestral Recall in Legacy Solidarity. Honestly, how many games did you pursue this line of play when you couldn't win in any other way? I played with VoB a bunch and VoB didn't win me a single game I couldn't have won without it. Just sayn..

Hmm. i guess this is why playing style differs. I've been really happy running splits of Opt and VoB. i play VoB like Opt without the option, but like ACall when i get an early BF during the combo chain.


In regards to my tone and your points... I understood them, and please excuse any condescension. I'm honestly just sick of hearing about FoI and kind of starting raging when I see people bring it up. In regards to VoB... I don't see it being viable in current builds. I'm actually more interested in Thoughtscour, when played it gets you 3 cards into the graveyard just from playing 1, add in say 3 fetchlands, and High Tide, Meditate, Reset, Brainstorm, etc. it wouldn't be hard to get a mass of cards into the graveyard quickly I'd say thats a good method when compared to Brainfreeze, especially when Thoughtscour compliments Brainstorm so nicely when you want to get rid of lands during the combo turn.

Apology accepted. =) i actually use Brainfreeze for what you suggested for thought scour. more often than not, i keep storms of BF on the stack just so that i can get full value out of my brainstorms. and the benefit of using BF of though scour for this is
1) BF is still your finisher
2) BF can give you full value out of more than 1 BS.

[Spigore]

Hi all! ;)

I guess spending Tide + Impulse + Reset/Turnabout + cantrip + Opt/Peek + Brain Freeze for a filled graveyard to enable VoB is a matter of playstyle. I totally don't like this and even more in game 2/3 when Surgical Extraction can be expected.
"But then you simply keep the Extraction on the stack and continue combo!"
- Great now you've just spent cards to trigger VoB but also forced yourself to combo.

Again, it's a matter of playstyle. Personally I very much like my friend's Seraphus list.
We've been brewing on below list, pretty much from what we've been piloting in GP Amsterdam;


// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
12 [P3] Island (1)

// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [LG] Reset
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [VI] Impulse
1 [JU] Flash of Insight
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [US] Turnabout
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [TE] Meditate
4 [IN] Opt
2 [GP] Repeal
2 [UL] Snap
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
1 [VI] Three Wishes

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [VI] Three Wishes
SB: 3 [PLC] Piracy Charm

In testing, this current list is a powerhouse. Note that there's no more Remand.
Remand used to slow down your opponents and safeguard your own spells from counters. The bounce-suite do pretty much the same thing and synergize with the Mage very well to up the storm.

I think running 4 Meditate runs pretty well, it allows EOT(3-4) Meditate and keeping enough copies of this powerful card in the library during the combo.

Regarding Piracy Charm; Seraphus suggested this card, since we really need an answer to hatebears, but especially to enemy speed cards as listed by Seraphus. We've been toying with Dismember in the past, but man, 4 life is quite a chunk.

Confidant, Snapcaster, Vendilion Clique, Thalia, Noble, Dryad Harbor, Mother of Runes, Delver, Lackey, Grim lavamancer... The thing is it kills!
Last weekend I had a very good time with Piracy Charm vs MUD where it knocked down Goblin Welder all day long.


old habits die hard, just like old tech with people that play oldschool combo decks.
I LOL-ed. So true!
I really like your brainstorming Vacrix. Freezing yourself has the tendency to mill you important cards and snapcasting them and exposing them for S.Extraction is risky.
All in all, it's a lot of effort and you are spending and risking to turn VoB into a A.Recall. Ofcourse, without a doubt, if 20 cards in GY is a fact during combo, VoB > Opt.

Regarding FoI being outclassed by PTD, I have to disagree. With above list, FoI is needed less more than before. While running a 3rd Mage and the ability to recycle the powerful man, it secures the availability of cards.
I use FoI as a last resort, when my library tends to get low to tutor through my entire library and restack it the way you want. This is something PTD never can do for you endgame.


Uhm, yeah enough talk. Time to go back to work.
Please think, suggest, comment, criticise! :smile:

[Vacrix]

Maybe we should take another look at Intuition as a potential 5th Mediate. If you run like 4 Snapcaster, then it doesn't even really matter if 2 cards go to the graveyard cause you can play them anyway with Flashback. Intuition is also +3 cards to the graveyard for builds running VoB. Also, Intuition for multiple Snaps produces quite a bit of mana if you're holding Snapcaster.

Edit:
I still don't understand Piracy Charm. I'd think that Chain of Vapor would be better if you want to get rid of bears. That or Repeal.


Edit:

Thoughtscour sucks :rolleyes: because of this: Goyf, Mongose, Snapcaster, knight...
...you play it targeting yourself dude. Goyf will still be small, Goose won't get threshed, Snapcaster won't have +2 targets in their own yard, and Knight doesn't benefit from lands in your graveyard. You can target the cards in your grave with your own Snapcaster, or build up to VoB if that is in fact a reliable way to get to contribute to getting to 20 cards. Also, it combos with Brainstorm, which can be pretty beast both during the combo turn, and to help you set up.

[smoky squirrel]

Maybe something worth noting, Visions of Beyond doesn't care which graveyard has 20 cards in it, so you could target your opponent using a small chain into brain freeze (+- 5 storm), then continue on comboing with a second brain freeze with the freshly drawn cards and a snapcaster for example.

[Spigore]

Hi Vacrix,

Basically, you always leave fetch open to flush down the two cards you don't want to draw after a resolved Brainstorm. But I do get your point.
Personally I don't like Scour; it brings in more risk (Extraction, Goyf, etc.) than advantage (Snap/VoB)

You are right on the Piracy Charm. Most hatebears (Meddling Mage, Canonist, Gaddock Teeg (not much of an issue), etc etc) are 2/2 ofcourse. These are pretty easy to play around, sit them out until you can bounce and go.
But the key to Piracy Charm is to take out the speed advantage other decks have on you i.e. Lackey, Confidant, Noble Hierarch, Dryad Arbor, Delver etc.

Intuition could replace either FoI or 3Wishes in my list. But I see Intuition more as a setup card whereas FoI and 3Wishes are mostly used during combo.

[Vacrix]

Maybe something worth noting, Visions of Beyond doesn't care which graveyard has 20 cards in it, so you could target your opponent using a small chain into brain freeze (+- 5 storm), then continue on comboing with a second brain freeze with the freshly drawn cards and a snapcaster for example.
Thats a good point. I don't think that line of play will come up often though.


EDIT:
Its worth noting that against hatebears, if they bother to attack with them, you can play Snapcaster at instant speed and block it if that's the optimal play.

Yeah I don't like Thought Scour either just from looking at it but I haven't played with it along side VoB and Snapcaster so I can't say for sure. The deck is already at risk for Extraction. Goyf, not so much. Goyf is usually a 2/3 against us as we only play lands and Instants... and occasionally they will send a Snapcaster to the grave. Otherwise, if they don't play Ponder or Chain Lightning, they won't have a Goyf bigger than a 2/3, occassionally its a 3/4.

@Piracy Charm
Ah I see so you play it against aggressive decks not bears. Interesting idea. Lackey seems like the best application, followed by an unflipped Delver. How often does the discard a card option make a difference? Perhaps with Peek you could find a good time to make that play.

Intuition can be used mid-combo or during the set up, an advantage that Three Wishes and FoI do not have. Mid combo it does pretty much the same thing as Cunning Wish, grabbing you a card for 2U, but also providing you with cards in the graveyard to interact with Snapcaster. Three Wishes I found rather underwhelming. I think its better just to run the playset of Snapcasters instead.

[KZhang]

[QUOTE=Vacrix;640010]Thats a good point. I don't think that line of play will come up often though.

erm, thats what i have been saying for the past few posts. =/

and yes, that line of play comes up quite often. (whenever you have a BF and VoB in hand)

[Seraphus]

[QUOTE]

erm, thats what i have been saying for the past few posts. =/

and yes, that line of play comes up quite often. (whenever you have a BF and VoB in hand)

But u can do it with just 1 BF....

[wolfstorm]

@Three Wishes
I played it for a while and it was meh. I think Snapcaster is way better. It doubles as a mana producer, a kill condition, and a business spell. Its about time we ran 4. There's no reason to be afraid of removal because you don't HAVE to Snap it, and if they opponent does try to play a removal spell, you still get to untap 2 lands and it adds +1 to the storm count

Does snap actually untap your lands if its target is removed?.. I was under the impression that it would fizzle.

[Vacrix]

Yeah I guess it fizzles, my bad. Honestly I haven't played with Snap/Snapcaster yet. I lent Solidarity to a friend a while back, literally just got it back today. Might play in an event in LA on Sunday. Bringing Trops for Tangle/Krosan Grip, Mindbreak Traps and I"m going to try to pick up some Snaps so I can borrow a friend's Snapcasters. Should be sick.

[Blue]

Has anyone tried Noxious Revival? It's seems like it would be pretty good.

[Vacrix]

My friend was trying it actually when he borrowed my deck. Said it was pretty good actually. If you really need a land, it can return fetches, and it makes Opt way better during the combo turn because you can cycle into something that you need. I think he played it as a 2'of.

[Blue]

Vacrix, what does your list look like? As far as Opt is concerned, isn't Visions of Beyond just plain better?

[Spigore]

If you go for a green splash to run Hunting Pack, Tangle/Moment's Peace and Noxious revival, you plan on stalling the game (= netting you turns) to a point where you are favourable to go for the combo.
Early turn business cards can be cut for the green cards.

Noxious Revival is a bad card. is card disadvantage and requires you to cantrip/draw the actual revived card. And yes, Snapcaster Mage is disadvantage as well, but doesn't need an other spell to get you the card, plus it synergizes with your bounce spells during combo!
My advice is not to play it.

[ScatmanX]

Noxious Revival is a bad card. is card disadvantage and requires you to cantrip/draw the actual revived card.
This is true.

And yes, Snapcaster Mage is disadvantage as well, but doesn't need an other spell to get you the card, plus it synergizes with your bounce spells during combo!
This is not.
If you recap any cantrip, you're left with the same amount of cards. If you recap Untap effects, you're left with more mana. How is it card disadvantage?

Unrelated note: Bought 2 Snapcasters! Yey! 1 (or 2) more to go.

[Spigore]

Hi Scatman,

Grats on the Snapcasters! Hope they will serve you well.

On their own Mages are not giving you any card advantage. The actual snapped card will give it to you. But choose wisely, as you are saying yourself; Brainstorm/Opt/Impulse will not result into advantage.
My most flashbacked cards are; Meditate, Impulse, Snap and Reset. But as flexible as Solidarity is, every situation has it's solution.


// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
12 [P3] Island (1)

// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [LG] Reset
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [VI] Impulse
1 [JU] Flash of Insight
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [US] Turnabout
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [TE] Meditate
4 [IN] Opt
2 [GP] Repeal
2 [UL] Snap
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
1 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [VI] Three Wishes
SB: 2 [PLC] Piracy Charm

MD -1 Three Wishes +1 Thirst for Knowledge (better pre-combo)
SB -1 Piracy Charm +1 Brain Freeze (safety if you tend to fizzle or after extractions)

I prefer Opt over VoB. Early game it's known that Opt is favourable due to it's dig.
Later on, VoB is clearly better but by that time, the fizzle rate is already that low so VoB turns into a win-more card. Many games I've found myself getting Opt during combo and I didn't need it to be a VoB.

It's nice to showboat an Ancestral Recall but I personally prefer to secure my position early game.

[benthetenor]

Just got back from being out of town. Man, lots to talk about here!

Pretty much my biggest question is, if you're using something like Thoughtscour to clear the deck after a Brainstorm or fill the 'yard for Visions of Beyond, what situations is Brain Freeze not just infinitely better? Or, rather, why would you want to have a dead card like Thoughtscour in your deck when you could just have a Brain Freeze and kill them? I'd rather play 4 Brain Freeze before a single Thoughtscour.

The only reason why I've been an advocate for Visions of Beyond is because I did extensive testing with it. There are, absolutely, a non-zero number of games that you will win over a given period of time with Ancestral Recall that you could not win with Opt. The deck does, in fact, fizzle. Quite often. It's part of the risk of running a deck with 22+ dead draws in a combo that relies entirely on drawing cards. In testing, it was almost 3:1 for games that I would have lost if I had Opt, rather than Visions of Beyond. That's not small peanuts.

As for the Brainfreeze them for ~5, Recall yourself, continue to go off, it happens very, very frequently. In a deck with tons of Snapcaster Mages and Visions of Beyond and Meditate, it's not unreasonable (and in fact, somewhat in your favor) to draw something off of those three cards that will let you win right on the spot. If the original Brain Freeze were for, say, 6 copies, then drawing just a single Snap will give you enough storm to win. It's a strong play when facing a wall of countermagic, or against decks that look to disrupt you with discard. Pure card advantage will win you those matchups.

It's also, more importantly, a way to turn the otherwise dead cards in your hand (Brain Freeze, Opt) into live draws that continue the combo. In theory, it's similar to the role that Thirst for Knowledge would provide, except that running more combo pieces gives you a more consistent deck in the long run, and running those actual pieces over fixers like TfK gives you fewer chances to mistakes in your strategic arc. There will absolutely be some games that you lose because you have too many Brain Freezes and not enough other stuff, but my gut tells me that you're going to lose more games off of a dead Thirst for Knowledge or Thoughtscour that would be wins if those cards were just a Brain Freeze.

All that said, I'm not opposed to looking at the number of Brain Freeze maindeck. The biggest reason to run multiples was against heavy counterspells or Counterbalance strategies, which are all things that can be helped to some extent just by running Snapcaster Mage. Now, if you try to go for the double freeze and they have counterspells for the Snapcaster Mage, that kind of sucks, but these also aren't decks that are seeing heavy play right now. Thirst for Knowledge could be a bit more versatile.

[Spigore]

Or, rather, why would you want to have a dead card like Thoughtscour in your deck when you could just have a Brain Freeze and kill them? I'd rather play 4 Brain Freeze before a single Thoughtscour.


You can't compare Thought Scour to Brain Freeze.
But to answer your question; Thought Scour replenishes itsself. Still, it's a shit card.


All that said, I'm not opposed to looking at the number of Brain Freeze maindeck. The biggest reason to run multiples was against heavy counterspells or Counterbalance strategies,...

I don't see a reason to run more Brain Freeze when you're facing UW/Esper Blade?
Countertop is dead, at least in my meta.

[benthetenor]

You can't compare Thought Scour to Brain Freeze.
But to answer your question; Thought Scour replenishes itsself. Still, it's a shit card.



I don't see a reason to run more Brain Freeze when you're facing UW/Esper Blade?
Countertop is dead, at least in my meta.

People are replacing (or at least talking about replacing) the extra Brain Freeze with a Thought Scour or Thirst for Knowledge. That's the only reason why I'm comparing the two. My point remains; it doesn't make sense to me to replace a kill condition with a card that finds the kill condition, particularly when the kill condition isn't completely dead pre-combo (like a Tendrils of Agony is in more traditional storm combo). Brain Freeze will almost always turn on Visions of Beyond, whereas Thought Scour and Thirst for Knowledge only push the deck in that direction.

I recognize that the idea is not to rely on making Visions of Beyond into Ancestral Recall, but just to slowly fill your yard and use it to increase consistency in the late game. In this deck though, I've found that card's strength is not sitting in the graveyard waiting to be flashed back, simply because 95% of the time you're going to have a Meditate in the graveyard which will allow you to dig deeper. And this is with me playing a version that only has 3 Meditate main. Mana is almost never an issue at that point in the game, so I'd rather pay the extra mana to draw the extra card. Maybe that's not the correct play, though; I haven't sat down and thought it through too much yet.

Where Visions of Beyond has shone for me has been in the hands where you're holding Brain Freeze and Visions and maybe even a Brainstorm. Brain Freeze turns all of those moderate setup cards into incredible powerhouse draw spells, greatly increasing mid-combo consistency. Playing something like Thirst for Knowledge can help do that, too, but it's not as powerful as Brain Freeze and you can't use it as a kill condition. You're paying more for less of an effect, and you can't use it to beat your opponent.

And I realize I didn't say anything about Piracy Charm vs. Bounce. I don't dislike Piracy Charm. I think it's a really nice answer to some of the creatures that we have to answer. The sideboard is just super tight, so I prefer bounce to Piracy Charm since there are very few games where you can't just bounce the offender then go off in response to them replaying it. That often has the added bonus of having them use up a good number of their lands, which will make it more difficult for them to disrupt us. Now, in a build that's less focused on the SB wish plan (like yours, Seraphus), then you could have a little more SB room, but I'm not sure I'd even go to Piracy Charm before something like Hydroblast or Rebuild.

I do need to make a little room for the 4th Snap, so I'm going to test -1 Brain Freeze to see how often I want the extra Brain Freeze when it's not there.

[HokusSchmokus]

Hey all, I'm just starting out with this deck and was wondering what everyone thought about the list I've been practicing with. Should I change anything about it?

MAIN DECK -
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Thought Scour
2 Turnabout
4 Cunning Wish
2 Three Wishes
4 High Tide
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Intuition
1 Echoing Truth
4 Meditate
1 Flusterstorm
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
1 Snap

12 Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand

SIDEBOARD -
1 Three Wishes
1 Comandeer
1 Twincast
1 Cackling Counterpart
1 Brain Freeze
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Snap
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
4 Leyline of the Void

This is almost exactly the list Markus Tumpach, a fellow Dortmund-area player , top8ed a huge tournament in Frankfurt with (http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/29374)
Thoughts on this?

[ScatmanX]

@HokusSchmokus:
It seems that there should be some difficulty on reaching landdrops without Impulse.
And is weird that the SB has 0 Ravenous Trap or Surgical, since they run 4 Cunning Wish.
What it seems though, is that it is a bit faster then normal lists, but should have at least 1 MD Brain Freeze.
Maybe will test it once reach 4 Snapcasters =]
Also, wouldn't Cackling Counterpart be better as another Snap, Commandeer as Misdirection, and anything be Wipe Away, so it can deal with MoM+Canonist?

[HokusSchmokus]

@HokusSchmokus:
It seems that there should be some difficulty on reaching landdrops without Impulse.
And is weird that the SB has 0 Ravenous Trap or Surgical, since they run 4 Cunning Wish.
What it seems though, is that it is a bit faster then normal lists, but should have at least 1 MD Brain Freeze.
Maybe will test it once reach 4 Snapcasters =]

In testing, reaching Landdrops was almost never an issue.I want to fit in some number of VoB, too.
Leylines in the board are obv. sub-par but a clear meta choice. And worked out against dredge in the top 8. I personally would run 3 Traps instead.
Also, I'm not quite fond of the Intuitions.

[Tammit67]

In testing, reaching Landdrops was almost never an issue.I want to fit in some number of VoB, too.
Leylines in the board are obv. sub-par but a clear meta choice. And worked out against dredge in the top 8. I personally would run 3 Traps instead.
Also, I'm not quite fond of the Intuitions.

I have dropped the intuitions and three wishes for impulse (among other small tweaks, like second snap main over e truth, although I'll probably switch back. and the 4th mediatate to board for a flusterstorm). Sideboard is strange to me, but it worked so...

Impulse is just amazing at finding land pre-combo. I'm in love with thoughtscour + Brainstorm mid combo, although I'm considering replacing a number of them (but not all) for opt, as missing land drops is by far the largest reason for any of my losses past turn 3.

Intuition seemed subpar in my testing. Cute tricks with Snapcaster? Sure, but I'd rather just resolve meditate.

Also, I'm considering moving on high tide into the SB for more consistent turn 4's, for those who remember that. It is probably not necessary in this slower meta

[Spigore]

Hi HokusSchmokus,

I'd swap the Leylines to Ravenous Trap. Obvious reasons. :smile:

[Vacrix]

I don't understand why people play Flusterstorm in Solidarity.. Its mediocre. Flusterstorm is good against us but when we play it, they can just tap a few islands for double mana and pay the 6-8 to throw us off. Mindbreak Trap is far better. Also, Pact of Negation is fantastic with Snapcaster. Against slower control, I usually try to get a hand with Snapcaster, Pact of Negation and Mindbreak Trap. If the Pact and Trap fail, you have Snapcaster into Pact for the 2nd time. Post-board I usually board in 3 Trap 2 Pact, keep one trap in the board for Cunning Wish. Also, many a time I've made a false attempt to go off in response to a Jace or something, High Tide, (counterspell), respond with Meditate, (counterspell), respond with Remand on Meditate (Force), Mindbreak Trap removing 3 countermagic and a Jace/Counterbalance/etc. You only lose High Tide/Meditate as you get to keep one with Remand, that or you just hold onto a Snapcaster and cast one of those from the graveyard. Flusterstorm can't counter Jace/Counterbalance. It comes up... often. I've played the matchup quite a lot.


Cackling Counterpart is an interesting Wish target. If it includes the Snapcaster trigger, which I can imagine is the only reason why anyone would play it, then you can even flashback it later in the game for a Brainfreeze kill? Dope sauce.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I don't understand why Cracking Counterpart is played over Echoing Truth. The latter performs the same trick and often better, not to mention being more versatile (antihate).

Varcix: Flusterstorm is useful before combo, and more castable during midgame combo (less than 6 lands). I doubt your scenario would come up often up. On the other hand, Pact of Negation seems very solid for the counter war. I am curious how do you board for the blue control matchups. You mentioned Pact, Trap and Remand in the scenario, and do you also keep in FOW? Those are a lot of slots.

[Vacrix]

Perhaps card advantage when you only have 1 Snapcaster to work with. Echoing Truth is better in any case where you have more than one though.

I take out FoW because its card disadvantage, and lately I've been boarding out Remand too actually cause I recently acquired a few Snapcasters IRL. Against slower control where you are going to deal with like 4 to 5 counterspells.. I like to sculpt a hand something like:
2 High Tide
1 Reset
1 Meditate
1 Snapcaster
1 Pact of Negation
1 Mindbreak Trap

This is the exact hand I went off with earlier today through 4 countermagic successfully. I'll post my list/how I board later this week cause I'm still trying to adjust to only having 2 Snapcasters IRL. :/ I'm trying to eventually get to a point where I can play 4.

[ScatmanX]

2 High Tide
1 Reset
1 Meditate
1 Snapcaster
1 Pact of Negation
1 Mindbreak Trap

This is the exact hand I went off with earlier today through 4 countermagic successfully.
If they try to counter only your drawspells, 4 counters get you, don't they?
They let Tide+Tide+Reset resolve, and counter Meditate (#1). Then you Pact, and they Counter Meditate again (#2). You let all resolve (or not, if you have something good on the Graveyard), and Snapcaster, and they counter (#3). Then you Trap, and they counter (#4). That's 4 counters and you're gone. Have you played differently thant this, or have they? (if you had some lands, you could hold on to the 2nd Tide+Reset, so they attempt to counter them when Meditate is on the stack, right?)

Also, it's hard to pull the Pact->Snapcaster->Pact trick, because good players will counter the Spell they were initially going to counter with their 2nd Counterspell, and Pact will still be on the stack, and therefore not a target for Snapcaster.
I still think it's a very solid card, and would very much like to see your list.

[benthetenor]

I don't understand why people play Flusterstorm in Solidarity.. Its mediocre. Flusterstorm is good against us but when we play it, they can just tap a few islands for double mana and pay the 6-8 to throw us off. Mindbreak Trap is far better. Also, Pact of Negation is fantastic with Snapcaster. Against slower control, I usually try to get a hand with Snapcaster, Pact of Negation and Mindbreak Trap. If the Pact and Trap fail, you have Snapcaster into Pact for the 2nd time. Post-board I usually board in 3 Trap 2 Pact, keep one trap in the board for Cunning Wish. Also, many a time I've made a false attempt to go off in response to a Jace or something, High Tide, (counterspell), respond with Meditate, (counterspell), respond with Remand on Meditate (Force), Mindbreak Trap removing 3 countermagic and a Jace/Counterbalance/etc. You only lose High Tide/Meditate as you get to keep one with Remand, that or you just hold onto a Snapcaster and cast one of those from the graveyard. Flusterstorm can't counter Jace/Counterbalance. It comes up... often. I've played the matchup quite a lot.


I've played against quite a few Jaces, and in my experience he's largely irrelevant. If they've got a clock and are using Jace properly (Brainstorming every turn) then it can be a headache, but the way matches tend to play out for me is that they windmill slam Jace with no pressure and expect it to win the game on it's own, which is like a 6 turn clock. But as such, I don't usually feel any pressure to counter Jace. When they don't know what's in your hand, which is most of the time, it's pretty difficult for them to fateseal properly, and it's pretty easy to sculpt your hand as they're fatesealing you, anyway. And that being said, if they get to a point where they are casting Jace, you can usually just win with Jace on the stack and most of their mana tapped down.

As for Flusterstorm stopping counterspells, it's definitely true that Mindbreak Trap is always a hard counter, whereas Flusterstorm isn't. What sold me on it is all the numerous times when I'd start to go off and get stopped by two spells from my opponent, never casting a third. Or, conversely, I'd get them to three spells and then they'd have a counterspell for the Mindbreak Trap, too. Flusterstorm is very difficult to counter, and in the situations where they are casting multiple counterspells, they tap out pretty quickly, usually while trying to counter your initial High Tide. But the thing that put it over the top for me is that it can counter a Duress or Hymn to Tourach, which is something that Mindbreak Trap can never do. In a sideboard that's already crammed, I'd rather have a card that can do all of that fairly well than 3 that do one spectacularly and 3 that do the other equally well.

That said, Pact of Negation is definitely an all-star in terms of protecting the combo. No card does more for less. If you need something strictly to protect the combo and have the spare sideboard slots, then it's a good call.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Against blue control, I would like to have 4 Flusterstorm and 4 Pact of Negation, the problem is obviously sideboard space.

What is the opinion on our cantrips beside 4 Brainstorm, 1cc (Thoughtscour, Opt) or 2cc (Impulse, Peer Through Depth)? I am on the 2cc side as their effects are obviously better, hence almost strictly better during the combo turn. Before the combo, you have time to cast 2 2cc cantrips, or up to 6 1cc ones. However, how often does one need to chain so many cantrips? 2cc cantrips are more easily disrupted, but we are fine with absorbing a Counterspell by a cantrip, aren't we?

[ScatmanX]

And that being said, if they get to a point where they are casting Jace, you can usually just win with Jace on the stack and most of their mana tapped down.
Don't do this. Go off with the Brainstorm trigger form Jace on the stack. Is way funnier when their own card kills them.

[Spigore]

Don't do this. Go off with the Brainstorm trigger form Jace on the stack. Is way funnier when their own card kills them.

LOL! I've actually pulled this one off once in my local shop. Had some spectators who pretty much went wild when they saw me do the play.

On Fluster/MTrap/Pact; they're all situational and pretty much depend on your MD which ones you would want in your SB. Benthetenor pretty much gave all reasons.

Fluster protects Hymn/Duress and is very good as a 2nd or 3rd counter in the counterwar and hits multiple targets.
Mindbreak Trap needs activation before it can be played.
Pact is a good counter but requires you to tap out on next turn (if there is any).

I prefer Flusterstorm in SB.

[benthetenor]

Don't do this. Go off with the Brainstorm trigger form Jace on the stack. Is way funnier when their own card kills them.

Not just funnier, but much easier, too. And that is certainly a valid play. I'd just worry that they might fateseal something away instead that I need if the Jace does resolve. If I've got the ability to kill them in response to a Jace, I'd rather not leave anything to chance, though, admittedly, there's not much that they'll be able to do that will keep me from just killing them end of turn with the same lands tapped down.

[Seraphus]

Against blue control, I would like to have 4 Flusterstorm and 4 Pact of Negation, the problem is obviously sideboard space.

What is the opinion on our cantrips beside 4 Brainstorm, 1cc (Thoughtscour, Opt) or 2cc (Impulse, Peer Through Depth)? I am on the 2cc side as their effects are obviously better, hence almost strictly better during the combo turn. Before the combo, you have time to cast 2 2cc cantrips, or up to 6 1cc ones. However, how often does one need to chain so many cantrips? 2cc cantrips are more easily disrupted, but we are fine with absorbing a Counterspell by a cantrip, aren't we?

draw effects cards (not indirect way loke wish or the mage): 20 to 23 - 1cc = 7-8 (they r weak mid combo but necessary during early game), 2cc = 4 to 6 (slightly stronger but nothing or almost nothing, gives u cardadvantaged meaning no power during combo), 3cc = (the raw power of draw, almost all of the 3cc is based on cardavantage FoI = 2 cards Meditate 4 cards etc) 5-6

Why this numbers? uff to long explanation and i dont have the patience to tell it all LOL but i have a statistical explanation, mechanical one and a list of results of the using of wrong and right numbers.

Yes u can waste a cantrip to a counterspell which a good player never going to trade off like that...

Yes cantrip is requiered but tricky to play with this is why it's easier to grab the Spiral deck the have a card that mechanicaly is equal to 3 cards in solidarity...

[ScatmanX]

draw effects cards (not indirect way loke wish or the mage): 20 to 23 - 1cc = 7-8 (they r weak mid combo but necessary during early game), 2cc = 4 to 6 (slightly stronger but nothing or almost nothing, gives u cardadvantaged meaning no power during combo), 3cc = (the raw power of draw, almost all of the 3cc is based on cardavantage FoI = 2 cards Meditate 4 cards etc) 5-6

Why this numbers? uff to long explanation and i dont have the patience to tell it all LOL but i have a statistical explanation, mechanical one and a list of results of the using of wrong and right numbers.

Yes u can waste a cantrip to a counterspell which a good player never going to trade off like that...

Yes cantrip is requiered but tricky to play with this is why it's easier to grab the Spiral deck the have a card that mechanicaly is equal to 3 cards in solidarity...
Wow. I really wish I could understand this language you're writing in.

[Seraphus]

Wow. I really wish I could understand this language you're writing in.

What's the language part of my post that you don't understand?

[SupREME-10]

What's the language part of my post that you don't understand?

I am pretty sure he gets the English parts; but not all of us use Internet Geek Speak with more acronyms and short forms of a word or sentence than actual English in it's context.

English is my second language and it took me a good 5 minutes to figure out all your short forms, etc. I agree with you that sometimes it might feel easier to just grab Spiral Tide over Solidarity; but the fact is that Spiral Tide does not work at instant speed and thus functions differently all around. Your math is also sound, although very hard to understand as it is so broken; you need to run that low end curve, hit the numbers right for CMC (Converted Mana Costs) vs draw effect, cantrips, combo assemblers, etc.

_____

Jace is not super fun to deal with as he usually comes alongside a control package; hopefully you grab game 1 outright and then just go for the 50/50 split on the next two. But mana is still a huge tool for you, so I would suggest to try to have as many lands onboard as possible and bring a couple Flusterstorm in from your SB for this match up. That way the more strom you get into the mix the easier it will be to actually control Jace and not even worry about him resolving. Yes it is funny to see him resove and the Brainstorm effect actually kill the use; but I am risk adverse, so I like to try to keep him out of the mix if possible.

[benthetenor]

I've been testing the business spell vs. 2nd Brain Freeze for a few weeks now, though my opportunities to test have been limited more than I would have expected, so this isn't going to be a statistically-significant post, more of a "feels like" post. I'm still working through it, though.

It seems to me that there are very few situations that you can't win when you're holding a Brain Freeze, as opposed to an additional business spell like Snap or Thirst for Knowledge. The one that's happened so far was from me keeping a bad hand and drawing really awkwardly, where having a 4th Snap helped me to continue to chain spells together to win big. What I have definitely found is that having 2 Brain Freeze main lets me win small a lot easier, in that I can double-freeze them more consistently, half-freeze them to turn on Visions of Beyond, or freeze myself to make Brainstorm into a business spell. I've also found that, by and large, I can win whether it's a Brain Freeze or a Snap in my hand, so I think it's largely a matter of preference. For me, I prefer the lines of play that come from holding Brain Freeze, since it feels safer a lot of the time. But again, both ways seem effective. Getting a Brain Freeze with only one in the deck (and one in the SB) is definitely not difficult to do when you need to, so I wouldn't play two just based on the fear that you'll never see it if there's only one.

Another thought I had. It's probably not better, but if you need a way to deal with an X/1, have you considered Gut Shot? About the only upside I can think of is that it's immune to REB, though the situations where that matters seem to be few and far between. Piracy Charm is more versatile, though that's not a spot in my SB that I want a versatile card in. What we need is a good, solid answer to every hatebear that matters. So, a tentative list:

Ethersworn Canonist
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Gaddock Teeg (though this guy doesn't really matter, depending on your build)
Aven Mindcensor (kind of...)
Mother of Runes
Scavenging Ooze
Meddling Mage (is technically a card, though no one plays it)

There are some good answers, though it definitely seems like the ones that we care about (Ooze aside) are x/1s. It's too bad that they're mostly white cards, since Hibernation isn't as good as I want it to be...but based on this I'm definitely wanting to put at least one Piracy Charm into my SB.

[Silent Requiem]

Well, I've had the chance to do some serious playtesting again after getting a little bit bored with ANT. I also picked up some Snapcasters, largely because I hate using proxies.

I started with the list I'd borrowed from benthetenor, which I'll repost for reference.


11 Island
6 blue fetches

4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
3 Visions of Beyond
2 Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
4 Snap
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Turnabout
4 Force of Will


This was just gold fishing, so I was not worried about pinning down a sideboard.

Well, I played a dozen games, with any game that I did not successfully combo out on turn three being counted as a loss. I won them all.

Seriously. The deck combo'd like clockwork on turn three. It was beautiful. Yeah, there were a couple of games where I got lucky, top decking my third land or my High Tide on turn three. But wow, what a change of pace.

That said, I do feel there is room for improvement. VoB was just dead to me - I was abusing Snapcaster so hard that I often had only six or so cards in my graveyard, despite having a storm count in the double digits. I'm not saying the card is wrong, just that it's wrong for me. Which is sad, actually, because I really want to make that card work.

I also felt the most pressure in the early game, as you only have two turns to assemble the combo if you intend to go for a turn three win. That makes the extra digging power of Opt especially valuable. So I'm doing a straight swap with Opt for VoB.

Brainstorm also had to be used far more aggressively, and I wonder if Thought Scour would find a home in a "fast" version of Solidarity. It would do a better job of clearing away the chaff than Opt, and helps reduce the storm count needed to win in other cases.

I've toyed with PtD over Impulse, because without the need to find a fourth land and one less turn to find High Tide the extra dig seems strong. Sadly, it does not grab Snapcaster, so I'll probably leave it for the minute.

17 lands seemed to be enough, but I got lucky a couple of times, and so I'd probably want to go back up to 18. On one hand this is coming from a guy that pioneered the 20 land list, so I clearly like my lands. On the other, I do think that while we want to be able to combo on turn three, we'd happily wait if our opponent allows us to. We get stronger as long as we can keep making those land drops.

I also never seemed to actually cast Turnabout - it did nothing when I was tight on mana, and I didn't need it when I had plenty of mana. It's on the watch list for the moment.

I really do want a card advantage engine outside of Meditate, though. FoI plays badly with Snapcaster, and is slow to boot, but perhaps I'll test it. Alternatively, a maindeck BSZ or Stroke could be randomly broken.

Wish seems weaker, and I'm not sure that three is the right number. We can't Wish for setup cards, and it does not play well with Snapcaster. Would two be enough? Remember that we are trying to race more than react here. Something to test.

[ScatmanX]

VoB was just dead to me - I was abusing Snapcaster so hard that I often had only six or so cards in my graveyard, despite having a storm count in the double digits. I'm not saying the card is wrong, just that it's wrong for me. Which is sad, actually, because I really want to make that card work.
......
I also never seemed to actually cast Turnabout - it did nothing when I was tight on mana, and I didn't need it when I had plenty of mana. It's on the watch list for the moment.
Thanks for the info on the goldfish. But I need to point out that those scenarios are not usually the case. Going of on T3 is usully possible with that list when facing no disruption, but once you add a few Discard spells and a few Counterspells against you, you'll see that cards like Turnabout (which is bad with only 3 lands into play indeed), and Visions of Beyond (which is bad on your 3rd turn indeed), gain a whole lot of value on the lategame.
Try some real live testing against Esper or UW and things like that to see if your view of those cards change.

[Kanti]

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
8 Island

Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage

Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
1 Visions of Beyond
4 Impulse
2 Brain Freeze
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
3 Meditate
4 Reset
3 Snap
2 Turnabout

Sideboard
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Echoing Truth
3 Flusterstorm
1 Hunting Pack
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Rebuild
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Wipe Away

Is what I've been testing. FoI doesn't have the best synergy with VoB or Snapcasters, but it has amazing synergy with Brain Freeze, as always. It makes Brain Freeze even more of a business spell. You can work it to not harm Snapcasters too badly.

Edit: Screw FoI. Snapcaster Mage really powers up Meditates. I still love running 19 lands, even there are times I wish I ran another business spell. I still love being able to make consistent land drops against blue decks. When facing combo decks just side out an Island g2 and g3, as those are the only matches where making a land drop every turn of the game isn't as important as well, not dying.

[benthetenor]

Well, I've had the chance to do some serious playtesting again after getting a little bit bored with ANT. I also picked up some Snapcasters, largely because I hate using proxies.

I started with the list I'd borrowed from benthetenor, which I'll repost for reference.

<list>

This was just gold fishing, so I was not worried about pinning down a sideboard.

Well, I played a dozen games, with any game that I did not successfully combo out on turn three being counted as a loss. I won them all.

Seriously. The deck combo'd like clockwork on turn three. It was beautiful. Yeah, there were a couple of games where I got lucky, top decking my third land or my High Tide on turn three. But wow, what a change of pace.

That said, I do feel there is room for improvement. VoB was just dead to me - I was abusing Snapcaster so hard that I often had only six or so cards in my graveyard, despite having a storm count in the double digits. I'm not saying the card is wrong, just that it's wrong for me. Which is sad, actually, because I really want to make that card work.

I also felt the most pressure in the early game, as you only have two turns to assemble the combo if you intend to go for a turn three win. That makes the extra digging power of Opt especially valuable. So I'm doing a straight swap with Opt for VoB.

Brainstorm also had to be used far more aggressively, and I wonder if Thought Scour would find a home in a "fast" version of Solidarity. It would do a better job of clearing away the chaff than Opt, and helps reduce the storm count needed to win in other cases.

I've toyed with PtD over Impulse, because without the need to find a fourth land and one less turn to find High Tide the extra dig seems strong. Sadly, it does not grab Snapcaster, so I'll probably leave it for the minute.

17 lands seemed to be enough, but I got lucky a couple of times, and so I'd probably want to go back up to 18. On one hand this is coming from a guy that pioneered the 20 land list, so I clearly like my lands. On the other, I do think that while we want to be able to combo on turn three, we'd happily wait if our opponent allows us to. We get stronger as long as we can keep making those land drops.

I also never seemed to actually cast Turnabout - it did nothing when I was tight on mana, and I didn't need it when I had plenty of mana. It's on the watch list for the moment.

I really do want a card advantage engine outside of Meditate, though. FoI plays badly with Snapcaster, and is slow to boot, but perhaps I'll test it. Alternatively, a maindeck BSZ or Stroke could be randomly broken.

Wish seems weaker, and I'm not sure that three is the right number. We can't Wish for setup cards, and it does not play well with Snapcaster. Would two be enough? Remember that we are trying to race more than react here. Something to test.

All these things are true. The only change I've made is to add an 18th land over a 4th Snap, and I'll say it's amazing how much differently the list feels with just that single change. Getting lands isn't even an issue, but the deck feels less explosive. Neither is better or worse, just two sides to the same coin.

I will say, echoing ScatmanX, that a lot of those cards that have value in a longer game aren't going to show their value against a goldfish, of course. It's the same as when you're going off and shuffling away Force of Will because it's not helping you win. Cunning Wish is most often a card like that, one that I'll usually make disappear with Brainstorm, though I will say that it's utility is greatly increased in longer games. To that end, I've replaced the Mindbreak Trap in my board with a single Pact of Negation, which gets boarded in against anything with counterspells (along with the Flusterstorms) and can be wished for before going off, a la the sorcery-speed versions of High Tide.

As for Turnabout, I can definitely see where you're coming from. The first time I tested Snap, I was all the way down to 1 Turnabout main, and while it didn't negatively impact my ability to go off during the game, it did tend to limit the insane, explosive things I could do like stroking myself for 20, etc. That would seem to me to mean that it's not absolutely necessary, but again, I like having it there. I will often shuffle it back in for later use if I have something like a Reset and a Snap, though.

What is awesome is how Snap is basically a free Reset when you're only on 2-3 lands. That part never gets old. You'll have to let me know how Opt feels to you, as I've really enjoyed Visions of Beyond and probably won't ever go back, but I am interested in your testing. I'll probably go back to the 17 land version just to remind myself what that's all about.

[Silent Requiem]

Encouraged by everyone to play some real games, I took the unmodified list (so VoB over Opt) to a playtest session and spent a couple of hours playing (unsideboarded) against Merfolk. I appreciate that they are not a huge part of the meta right now, but it's a matchup I'm familiar with, so it makes for useful comparisons.

First, it's worth noting that I won all my games, which is odd against Merfolk (I typically win the matches 2-1). I wouldn't call the match a walkover, and there were certainly a few times I got lucky, but the dynamic of the match had certainly changed.

The first thing I noticed was that the Merfolk player had to be a lot more choosy about the hands he kept. In the past, Merfolk on the play with an aggressive hand could simply race us by winning on their turn 4 (our turn 3). This build just stomps that kind of strategy flat. Very encouraging for our game 1's against straight up aggro.

This meant that my opponent was quickly pushed into looking for more controlling hands. Ironically, this slows him down, giving us at least the traditional four turns, but with our leaner, more efficient deck, we actually have a lot of options once that fourth land goes down. Longer games always favour Solidarity.

Beyond the general "feel", a few things stood out.

1) VoB is mostly still "meh", but occassionally "omfgwtfbbqpwnd!!!111!!1" It reminds me of Twincast that way. Usually, it's just a cantrip, but it can also power out some pretty amazing comebacks.

One particular game stands out as a good example. I'd tried to go off on turn 3 in response to lethal (Merfolk with a fast hand AND disruption on the play). Playing through and around his disruption left me with one active High Tide, and a hand of High Tide, Snapcaster, Snap, VoB and Brainfreeze with two mana floating. Storm was 3 .

Obviously, I would need to Snap something in order to continue, so I bounced his LoA. That, along with the Cursecatcher he had burned trying to shut me down, took lethal off the table. I now had four mana available, but no good way of going forward. I therefore cast VoB, and without passing priority cast Brainfreeze, hitting him for 18. As he already had three cards in his graveyard, this gave me a boosted VoB when it resolved, and I ended his turn with a full grip. I went off easily the following turn. I think I Snapcaster'd into my Brainfreeze at a relatively modest Storm count.

2) As a collary to the above, we can also go off on our own turn. Sure, Reset is dead, but we now have six untap effects (plus Snapcaster recursion) that can be cast on our turn. This was randomly important, because it allowed me to take advantage of an opponent tapping out on a turn they thought they were safe because I could drop the extra land and go off before they untapped. In this sense, Turnabout still earns a spot.

3) I miss Hunting Pack. This is a (mostly) turn three deck. Hunting Pack was also (occasionally) a turn three deck. The new build would make Hunting Pack even stronger, because there are four more untap effects in the deck. High Tide, Cunning Wish and any of Snap/Reset plus Snap/Reset/Turnabout is a win with three lands in play. I'm going to try and wrestle this back into the deck.

4) I don't like it, but 17 lands was enough. I got lucky when hit by a couple of successive Stifles, finding more lands when I probably shouldn't have, but I always made my first three land drops. I would go up to 18, though, if I were adding a Tropical Island.

5) Pact of Negation plus Snapcaster equals lols. I fought through two Force of Will, Spell Snare and Cursecatcher with the Pact of Negation I had wished for being my only counter - pure threat density (two High Tides) and recursion (Snapcaster) won the day.

[ScatmanX]

Considerations.
Hey, nice to see you tested irl, and thanks for the comments.
couple of thing I'd like to comment:
1 - You said you liked VoB better, but still was not awesome. That makes sense, since you were playing agains't Merfolk. If you test against some slower MU's, like Esper, UW, Maverick and other, you'll probably see that it can be bonkers (well, you actually saw it in some matchs, but you'll be mroe convinced)
2 - I never got Pact+Snapcaster to work. I mean, we usually start with Tide. They counter it, and you Pact their Counter. Good players now respond by usin their 2nd Counterspell on the High Tide, while Pact still on the Stack, which means we can't Snapcaster it back. Has this scenario been played off differently by you or him?
3 - Going off in your own turn it's often a nice thing. You mini combo on their turn, then go off again on yours. It takes people by surprise, while making sure they have no counters and/or are tapped out.

[Kanti]

So I noticed some things the last days of testing too:

>Snapcaster needs 8 1cc cantrips to function well. I don't feel like this deck is quite turn 3 yet (unless forced just wait, as it's almost always easier to do so) so it's great to double up on your cantrips on t3 with Mages.

>I miss Opt. Even with 19 land I loved Opt (you just use Impulses and Opts to get business spells vs lands, and it makes mulling easier). Opt is also AMAZING with Snapcasters, while VoB is kinda lackluster. I'd go with a 3/1 split or a 2/2 split in Opts favor honestly, as it's not easy knowing if you should cast your VoB's early or hold onto them for their late game power.

Try Hunting Pack again. It's still good, though I've been using it less lately.

[benthetenor]

I went back to the 17 land version and played just a few games, and instantly remembered why it's so good. But the whole "feels more explosive" comment doesn't really say much, so I thought about it from a mathematical perspective. If you're scared of Stats, that's okay, but if we don't dive into the numbers then the only thing I can offer you is my "feels like", which is far from fact.

In this build, it was a choice for me between an 18th land (an Island) and a 4th Snap, though for the purposes of the math, it could have been any business spell like Thirst for Knowledge or Blue Sun's Zenith. In the setup phase, we see about 15 cards, assuming a Peek or Visions of Beyond (or Brainstorm with no shuffle) and an Impulse along with our cards drawn each turn. That's 1/4 of the deck, making the probability of seeing the card before going off a neat .2500. When going off, I will always see more than 15 additional cards before winning, typically between 20 and 30, putting the probability of seeing the Snap/Land card while going off (and not before) somewhere between .4444 and .6667. Not only are the chances of seeing the card much greater when going off than while setting up, something that should be pretty obvious, but when you're going off, if it's a land, it's completely dead, whereas a business spell will, by definition, always be live. There is a much better chance of seeing the card in question when you need it to be a business spell than when you need it to be a land.

Then, there's the fact that it's much, much easier to go off turn 3, which means that you're generally not going to need much more than 3 lands to go off. The odds of seeing at least 3 lands in the top 15 cards (or by turn 3) in a 17 land build is a pretty astonishing 87.87%. Adding in an 18th land, the numbers go up (natch), but the percentage is only 90.68%. To me, that additional ~3% chance of not missing your 3rd land drop doesn't seem worth having a dead card mid-combo, considering that there could already be as many as 18 (14 lands and 4 FOW) hanging out in the deck, but I can't make that call for you.

The math bears out what I've assumed in testing, which is that having the additional land is going to matter in setting up some games, but here it's less than 3 games in 100. These are of course just example games, and the percentages go down a little if you have, say, a Brainstorm instead of an Impulse, but I had to pick some sort of starting hand and go with it or I'd never be able to make any numbers. What this shows more than anything is how powerful Impulse is, and just why we'd never want to run any less than 4, which has been the consensus for as long as the deck has existed.

Interestingly enough, without Impulse, the sorcery speed version of High Tide does have more cantrips, but needs to cast them at a greater frequency to match the ability to dig for lands that this deck has. Ponder will only ever go one card deep, either one of the top 3, or a random 1. Preordain will dig somewhere between 1 and 3 cards deep, depending on how much control you want over your draws. Brainstorm digs 3 deep, but only on the turn you go off or in combination with a shuffle. Comparing them to us, we've got 4 Brainstorm, too, 4 (or in my case, 5) 1-mana cantrips and 4 Impulse. We get the same functionality, but then Impulse is way, way better than Preordain. It also puts the cards you don't want on the bottom, effectively making your deck 4 cards smaller, so in a lot of ways it does what none of the 1-mana cantrips can do. But while I got the idea to trim to 17 lands from some versions of sorcery-speed High Tide, that deck may actually be less suited to run < 18 lands. I don't really know what a standard hand goes like for them, but I would guess that playing 3 cantrips over the first 2 turns would seem a little lucky. They also need more lands to power their Time Spiral (in general), so that's probably also a reason why they need to run 18 lands.

What that long digression says to me is that this deck is actually faster by a significant amount, if slightly less consistent, than sorcery-speed High Tide, which finally gives me a reason to champion it over the sorcery speed version. Up to this point, I was just going off of personal preference and the ability to dominate the stack. But now we have a deck that has all of the inevitability of sorcery-speed High Tide, but which can function almost a full turn faster and is, by it's nature, more resilient against counterspells. Difficulty aside (and I would say that this is easily the most difficult deck ever constructed), there's no good reason to run Time Spirals over Resets.

tl;dr - What's wrong with you? Go back and read it. There's good stuff in there.

A lot of this is late commentary on Herbig's posts a few pages back, but it's all stuff I've been struggling with putting into words, which is why you got it here. To Silent Requiem, you're awesome and I'm glad you're enjoying the dynamics of the deck. It adds a whole other layer of complexity when you no longer have to wait until they are about ready to kill you before you can technically win, so now you're trying to figure out whether you should kill them now when they likely don't have a lot of disruption, or kill them later when you have 4-6 lands in play. When in doubt, wait, but sometimes it's right to just beat them when their defenses are down. And yes, sometimes that means in response to something they do at your end of turn, which is an amazing club to have in the bag. All of these things make something as innocuous as Peek a really, really important tool.

Sorry that these posts are way too long. If I don't explain myself though, then things get misconstrued and it ends up taking me more words over multiple posts.

[ScatmanX]

The new lists seem to be a lot harder to sideboard.
I mean, we don't want to take core cards out, neither Snapcaster/Snap engine.
So, what do you take out against the most common matchups (maverick, esper, canadian)?
Thanks.

[benthetenor]

The new lists seem to be a lot harder to sideboard.
I mean, we don't want to take core cards out, neither Snapcaster/Snap engine.
So, what do you take out against the most common matchups (maverick, esper, canadian)?
Thanks.

Good question; There are a lot of different things you can do, so I'll just give some examples for what I do. First, the sideboard I'm currently running, which hasn't changed too much:

1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Pact of Negation
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap

Sideboarding in general really is as easy as seeing what cards are bad and subbing in cards that are good, and trying to figure out what role you want to play in the matchup. There's a lot of flexibility, especially given that the deck can now play faster or slower, so it's really up to you to decide where you want to put the balance between speed and protection. Against a lot of decks, you can board out some number of Snaps since they're going to get slower post-board in the hopes of being able to interact with you. I ran the deck for months with 0 Snap and it still works just fine, is very stable, etc, just isn't quite as fast. But usually I'd board out 1-ofs to make it work.

For example, against a deck like RUG, I'd probably go -1 Snap, -1 High Tide (if you expect Surgical Extraction), -1 Visions of Beyond, -1 Force of Will to bring in +3 Flusterstorm and +1 Pact of Negation. This way you can still wish for a free counter if you need it, and Pact is better than Force in the matchup anyway. Stoneblade would be very, very similar, though I might take out a Peek over a Visions of Beyond, since you won't have to fight through quite so much disruption. Against Maverick, I'd probably just board out a Force of Will or a Cunning Wish for an Echoing Truth. Having access to 4 Snap main goes a long way towards making that matchup irrelevant. Against most combo, I'm fine going -3 Snap (or maybe 2 Snap and 1 Peek), +3 Flusterstorm. I wouldn't overboard and bring in Surgical Extraction unless I'm facing Reanimator, but it is there if you feel like you're not getting enough of an edge. Combo isn't too bad, though. Ichorid is -1 Peek, -2 Force of Will for +3 Surgical Extraction, though that's not one that I've really played a whole lot recently. But SE is better than Force of Will and Visions of Beyond is often just Ancestral Recall. Get to three lands, Cunning Wish for Ravenous Trap, accept handshakes. And Snapping Narcomoebas and Ichorids can be really good if they don't have a steady discard outlet. It's also possible that Flusterstorm is just better than Force of Will, so you could board out the remaining Forces for some Flusterstorm, but that's up to you.

A lot of this isn't really strongly tested, but it makes sense. If I were in a tournament tomorrow, it's what I'd do.

[ScatmanX]

I'd not take out Tide against RUG. I only do it against opponents that have Surgical + Discard, or slow clocks.
The rest is ok I guess, but you seem to have few outs against a resolved Choke in MAV.

[Silent Requiem]

A lot of really good posts recently, so I may unintentionally miss some points.


I never got Pact+Snapcaster to work. I mean, we usually start with Tide. They counter it, and you Pact their Counter. Good players now respond by usin their 2nd Counterspell on the High Tide, while Pact still on the Stack, which means we can't Snapcaster it back. Has this scenario been played off differently by you or him?

Here's how it played out: High Tide > FoW > 2nd High Tide > 2nd FoW > Pact (resolves, getting me 1 High Tide) > Reset > Spell Snare. At this point I have only two mana (one Island) open, so I Snapcaster'd the Pact back onto the Spell Snare and went off from there.

A better play would actually have been: High Tide > FoW > Pact. This would have left me with one more mana if he only had one FoW, while making no difference if he had two; I just didn't spot that at the time. It would have played out: High Tide > FoW > Pact > 2nd FoW (targeting High Tide) > 2nd High Tide (resolves). I would then need to have been smart and let the counter chain unravel, putting Pact into the graveyard. If I was greedy, and left them on the stack, then you are right, I would not have had Pact available when he snared my Reset.


The new lists seem to be a lot harder to sideboard.
I mean, we don't want to take core cards out, neither Snapcaster/Snap engine.

This is a real concern for me. My first thought is actually the fast combo matchup. We're actually weaker here, because we lack Remand, and are relying totally on FoW to slow them down. Bringing in a playset of Flusterstorm or the like seems to be an absolute minimum here.

We CAN'T take out cantrips, because they find us the counters when they try to go off. That leaves us taking out Snapcasters (which would prevent us giving Flusterstorm flashback), Cunning Wish (which prevents us wishing for Mindbreak Trap or Echoing Truth) or untap effects (which will slow us down) Removing untap effects seems the least of these evils. I'd drop the Snaps first, as Turnabout is more powerful in a long game.


I went back to the 17 land version and played just a few games, and instantly remembered why it's so good.

I'll be honest, a year ago I wouldn't even have tried a 17 land build. I just liked my land drops too much. However, I've spent a lot of time playing ANT recently, which is also a turn three deck (although obviously capable of going off much faster from time to time). ANT cares a lot about making the first three land drops, and it only runs 17 lands (or 15 and 2 Chrome Mox). I don't think the similarity is a coincidence. 17 (or 18 if you splash green) is probably the right number. I love how much business I draw into when I go off.

I didn't get around to any testing tonight (new Jack Campbell book just came in the post :laugh: ), but I'll keep at it. I really like how the deck is feeling, and I think that (with much tweaking and even more practice) it will be an objectively better deck than what Gearheart left us with.

My next test will probably involve Hunting Pack - I want to see how often I can go off with HP if it's my only wincon (simply to see how feasible it is to assemble the combo).

[ScatmanX]

My next test will probably involve Hunting Pack - I want to see how often I can go off with HP if it's my only wincon (simply to see how feasible it is to assemble the combo).
I'd like to read your conclusions about this later =]

Is anybody having problems with Maverick pos-side lately?
I mean, 3 Thalia, Canonist, ETutor, Choke and Surgicals are quite a lot of hate...
I'm thinking of adding 2 Gutshot on the Side, that with the Snaps MD should be able to handle Mom + 1 Hatebear (good for us that Tegg does near to nothing).
With that said, what do you think about a SB like this (for the Snapcaster Version):

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate

1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 GutShot
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
(Gutshot can became extra Surgicals if they prove to be un-necessary against Maverick)

[benthetenor]

I'd not take out Tide against RUG. I only do it against opponents that have Surgical + Discard, or slow clocks.
The rest is ok I guess, but you seem to have few outs against a resolved Choke in MAV.

I really don't think I care all that much about Choke. It's a beating against sorcery-speed High Tide, but we have 4 cards that untap all of our lands for just 2 mana. I'd rather just stop doing things, make land drops, and beat them with Choke sitting uselessly on the board, or alternately, beat them in response to a Choke or FOW it. Or even do a little digging then burn a Reset to get back to neutral, since I can always Snapcaster the Reset back mid-combo if I need it. Their clock is much slower than a lot of other decks, so it's just not something I'm worried about. It's also worth noting that Thalia is Legendary, so we only have to worry about one at a time, which is pretty quickly overcome with a single resolved High Tide. It's kind of the same thing as playing through Trinisphere. The only guy we absolutely have to deal with, or else lose, is Ethersworn Canonist, but most Maverick lists run him as a silver bullet. I don't really see that as a matchup that needs any help post-board, which is why I've chosen to focus elsewhere, but I suppose I could be undervaluing the deck. I do know that I had little issues beating it back when I was playing with Remand over Snap, and Snap has to be better against them than Remand ever was. For what it's worth though, I think if you feel you need sideboard cards against Maverick, Piracy Charm is probably a better card than Gut Shot (it doesn't add to their clock, they likely won't have Red Elemental Blasts to bring in), whereas something like Wipe Away is better against Mother of Runes and can also hit Choke. The Rebuild in my sideboard is likely a little loose and should probably be a Wipe Away, which would be another card that could come in in that matchup.

And in general, if the matchup is going to go at least 4 turns (as most will, post-board) and there's even a chance that they'll bring in Surgical Extraction, I'll board out a single High Tide. There are lots of people who are happy to play 3 main and one sideboarded anyway, and while I definitely think that that's wrong, I can't argue with the fact that it makes them more consistently a turn 4 deck, so it seems like a good way to make space for SB cards and also protect myself from Surgical Extraction, while adding consistency at the cost of speed, which I'm already sacrificing just by virtue of bringing in Flusterstorms. It might not be the correct card to board out, but it seemed like a pretty easy choice to me.

Your proposed sideboard doesn't do a single thing against Dredge. In Vintage, the rule of thumb was at least 6-7 varied cards to deal with that deck unless you just wanted to lose to it. This deck draws cards like a Vintage deck, so for us it's 3-4 cards to come in and one to fetch with the 3 Cunning Wishes. Unless you just don't care about losing to Dredge, which might not be a bad call depending on your metagame. I just know that the moment I don't prepare for it, I'm going to face it. It's definitely in the top 5 most popular decks in the format, so I don't think it's something I'd be comfortable just writing off, but again, your call.

[benthetenor]

This is a real concern for me. My first thought is actually the fast combo matchup. We're actually weaker here, because we lack Remand, and are relying totally on FoW to slow them down. Bringing in a playset of Flusterstorm or the like seems to be an absolute minimum here.

We CAN'T take out cantrips, because they find us the counters when they try to go off. That leaves us taking out Snapcasters (which would prevent us giving Flusterstorm flashback), Cunning Wish (which prevents us wishing for Mindbreak Trap or Echoing Truth) or untap effects (which will slow us down) Removing untap effects seems the least of these evils. I'd drop the Snaps first, as Turnabout is more powerful in a long game.


I played in a tournament when I was testing a deck with 4 Pact of Negation rather than 4 Force of Will, but otherwise pretty much the same deck, in which I faced 3 combo decks in 4 rounds. I lost each round, but 2 of the 3 went to 3 games, and in each of those two matches I ran into a situation where I was holding Pact of Negation where Force of Will would have simply won me the game. 7 backbreaking counterspells, along with Snapcaster Mage for Flusterstorms, is really pretty difficult for them to beat. And there's always the chance to bring in or wish for Surgical Extraction or just hijack their storm and beat them in response to their Ad Nauseum or similar game-winning spell. Flusterstorm is a card that they really have issues beating since it can be used to stop their Duresses which will often delay them a few turns until they can find another discard spell to make sure the way is clear, or if they walk into it, they just lose. But I agree, a singleton Mindbreak Trap would also go pretty far against them. I'd be more worried about dealing with Xantid Swarm, which is actually a pretty good card to Gut Shot.

[Silent Requiem]

I did some testing (just gold fishing) with Hunting Pack, and I was, sadly, disappointed. It's my fault, though. I'd just forgotten some of the lessons I'd already learned about the deck.

I originally started including Hunting Pack, not to make the deck faster, but to make the deck more consistent. There are a wide range of poor/shaky hands that Hunting Pack turns into an auto-win. The fact that you could occasionally go off on turn three was a bonus, not the point of the exercise.

And that's what I relearned testing HP again. It's not a consistent turn three win - there are simply too many pieces that need to come together. With this new build, I often found myself able to go off conventionally on turn three, but not with Hunting Pack.

Now, that doesn't mean that Hunting Pack has no place here, just that it's role is not going to be "to be fast". Having an alternate win condition can be excellent, and the deck may still benefit from having some way to make do with loads of untap but very little draw. That said, the new build has far fewer dead cards when comboing, making it much easier to combo off from a blind meditate

So for now, I think I'll be putting HP away. Once we have the new build optimised in one colour we can start thinking about splashes, but I think we can all agree that, all things being equal, a monocolour deck is the way to go.

[Kanti]

I was finding the same to be true in testing, Silent. There were many times I could win off of double BF but coudn't go with HP.

I still had some games won off the back with HP with the list so I will continue testing with it as it has proven itself in a Mage-less version of the deck.

On Choke; I woudn't worry about it at all. Our deck revolves around untap effects so it's quite easy to play around. I wouldn't take out the Rebuild. It's one of those cards that answers decks you are bound to see at a GP, and it helps versus some archetypes (Stoneblade, and I Wish>Rebuild versus Canonists (goes around Mother which is huge).

[benthetenor]

On Choke; I woudn't worry about it at all. Our deck revolves around untap effects so it's quite easy to play around. I wouldn't take out the Rebuild. It's one of those cards that answers decks you are bound to see at a GP, and it helps versus some archetypes (Stoneblade, and I Wish>Rebuild versus Canonists (goes around Mother which is huge).

While I do agree with you, I can't help but notice that Wipe Away gets around Mother of Runes just as effectively. The only reason I say that Rebuild is a little loose is because in probably 95% of the situations where you'd want a Rebuild, you can work around things just fine using some combination of Wipe Away and Snapcaster Mage or other bounce. Not as easy, to be sure, but still possible. Unless they have double Canonist + Mother of Runes (which isn't something I think any decks are set up to do) or a Chalice at 1 and 2 and significant pressure (like a Lodestone Golem), Wipe Away will be effective enough. Then Wipe Away also deals with about 300 other things that could be an issue, including some of the more difficult cards to deal with like Counterbalance and Pyrostatic Pillar without any shenanigans. Not that it's the best possible answer to any of those cards, but rather it's a "good enough" answer to all of them.

It all comes down to whether you need that particular SB slot to be flexible or a blowout card, and it's largely a matter of preference. In my own testing, I've worked hard and gotten my entire 75 down to just 2 cards that are questionable/in flux/"metagame slots", and that's the one that we're discussing and the Chain of Vapor. Everything else has proven to be so overwhelmingly the "right" card for what the deck needs that there exist no other cards that fill the slot better. That's not to say I couldn't possibly be completely wrong, or that something won't be printed in future sets to challenge the current best cards, but it just seems that those cards have all proved themselves to the point where I'm beyond thrilled with them, both in terms of what the card is and the number of each present. I think it's fitting that the bounce spells be the flex spots, since those are most often the catchall cards or, alternately, can be a blowout. I don't think I want more than 3 bounce spells in the board though, and the only one I'd double up on would be potentially Wipe Away if I were expecting any amount of Counterbalances.

[Kanti]

I gotta totally disagree that in 95% of situations you could use Wipe Away or some whatever over Rebuild. I don't know where you got 95% from but I am just about 100% certain that it is hyperbole. Even with Mages you need Rebuild if you want to win against Chalice decks as you're on your backfoot trying to bounce their lock pieces before they blow you out and resolve an Armageddon, Golem, or some Pit Dragons.

Of course Wipe Away is better at dealing with a creature protected by MoR since it could bounce 3/3 hate-bears that Mav runs, versus 1/3 that Rebuild does.

You could run a Wipe Away over Rebuild, and it would be better if you never face a Chalice deck or Affinity, but if you did (which there is good chance you would at a large event) then Rebuild would make sure those matches are autowins.

So in conclusion, yes, it all comes down to wanting a blow-out card with little versatility or a versatile card with no potential to blow-out. For a larger event I'd pick the former, for a smaller one I'd pick the later.

[benthetenor]

I gotta totally disagree that in 95% of situations you could use Wipe Away or some whatever over Rebuild. I don't know where you got 95% from but I am just about 100% certain that it is hyperbole. Even with Mages you need Rebuild if you want to win against Chalice decks as you're on your backfoot trying to bounce their lock pieces before they blow you out and resolve an Armageddon, Golem, or some Pit Dragons.

Of course Wipe Away is better at dealing with a creature protected by MoR since it could bounce 3/3 hate-bears that Mav runs, versus 1/3 that Rebuild does.

You could run a Wipe Away over Rebuild, and it would be better if you never face a Chalice deck or Affinity, but if you did (which there is good chance you would at a large event) then Rebuild would make sure those matches are autowins.

So in conclusion, yes, it all comes down to wanting a blow-out card with little versatility or a versatile card with no potential to blow-out. For a larger event I'd pick the former, for a smaller one I'd pick the later.

I'm going to preface this by saying that I spent a lot of my formative years beating Stax decks with combo decks in Vintage. Compared to those decks, Legacy Stax isn't even a thing.

...I'm not sure what you mean by saying that I couldn't use Wipe Away (or some whatever???) in 95% of the situations that I could use Rebuild. Of course I could. It's a question of effectiveness in a matchup vs. (probability of getting that matchup)*(probability of finding the card in question when it matters.)

Rebuild will always be better against a Stax deck. Obv. That's completely irrelevant to me. Even in a large (300+ person) event, the chances of getting paired up against a Chalice deck are pretty slim. In the last Too Much Information that the Hatfields compiled (SCG St. Louis, ironically), there was 1 in 276 people. There might be 2 of them in the whole room, and the later on you go, the less chance you'll see it as it really can't beat any of the top decks. I really can't stress enough how unlikely it would be to be paired against a Stax deck. Somewhere around a .3% chance. But even if you do, in that large event, losing the match to that deck is going to be easier to handle than in a small event. In a small event, there's likely not going to be any Stax decks, so that situation is pretty irrelevant, and if there is, you're going to know about it before you have to turn in a decklist, so you can always audible in the Rebuild if you're worried.

And it's not hyperbole. Against a Stax deck, there are very few cards you actually care about. Chalice, Armageddon, Smokestack and Lodestone Golem are all cards that matter. Lodestone Golem is pretty excellent Snap fodder. Chalice at 1 is annoying but can be played around; if he gives you time to make your land drops, you're not even going to need to cast your High Tide. Chalice at 2 is a problem, but like anything else, is bounceable. Chalice at 3 is going to beat both of the cards in question. Smokestack is very slow. Armageddon is the one card that's going to wreck us, but the card in question does nothing to stop that; we can only beat them in response or before it's an issue, or hit it with a Force of Will. The only time where you are in trouble against a Stax deck is if they get 3+ lock pieces up and running, at which point you're going to lose 80% of those games even with access to a Rebuild, since they're going to put a lot of pressure on you while disrupting your ability to dig for Rebuild/Cunning Wish.

As for cards like Trinisphere and Tangle Wire, don't care. Going off under a Trinisphere is actually pretty simple, given that you're going to have all of your lands and resolving more than one High Tide, which you're going to do during the course of winning anyway, negates all of their advantage.

And besides all of that, there's been exactly 1 Stax deck to Top 8 an SCG Open EVER (that didn't even play Armageddon), and only 1 Affinity deck to top 8 in the last 12 months. Hell, Dream Halls has had a better showing than that. The odds of me facing a deck with Chalice of the Void in a tournament are negligible, and on the very, very small chance that I do, Wipe Away will still do something. It makes way more sense to me to have that situation than to be in a tournament and be constantly staring at the Rebuild in my sideboard as it does nothing match after match. Sideboard slots are precious, and burning one of them on a non-existent matchup is a terrible call.

Your argument that you'd rather have a LESS flexible card in a LARGER tournament is completely illogical. I know what you're trying to say, that your odds of facing one of these non-existent decks goes up in a larger tournament. And that's only true in the sense that .3% is more than 0%. Practically speaking, the odds are zero.

Now, if you're talking about something more like a Metalworker deck, which has actually shown up at SCG recently, those decks have nothing in the way of disruption; 2-3 Chalice of the Void and some number of Trinisphere in the sideboard. That deck aims to beat you with one big creature as quickly as possible, which means you can play Snapcaster tricks with them until turn 4-5, at which point you just beat them.

You are absolutely going to lose some games to Chalice of the Void. Over the course of 1000 games against an actual SCG Open field, Wipe Away will matter in way more games than Rebuild will. I'm going to go with numbers. But it's your call.

[Kanti]

You could use Wipe Away but it would be nowhere as effective, obviously.

It's really just as easy as wanting to have an auto-win vs Chalice decks or having to work hard for those wins. If you run Rebuild you will almost never lose games to Chalice decks, period. They are not that prevalent but I still see them pop up in tournament reports. It's really just a preference issue.

[benthetenor]

You're going to lose way more than you win, but you're absolutely right, it's a preference thing. Enjoy staring at that Rebuild. I have, literally, never seen a deck with Chalice of the Void in the top tables of any of the tournaments that I've ever been to. I'd bet a fair amount of money to say that it's the same for you.

[Vacrix]

I did some testing (just gold fishing) with Hunting Pack, and I was, sadly, disappointed. It's my fault, though. I'd just forgotten some of the lessons I'd already learned about the deck.

I originally started including Hunting Pack, not to make the deck faster, but to make the deck more consistent. There are a wide range of poor/shaky hands that Hunting Pack turns into an auto-win. The fact that you could occasionally go off on turn three was a bonus, not the point of the exercise.

And that's what I relearned testing HP again. It's not a consistent turn three win - there are simply too many pieces that need to come together. With this new build, I often found myself able to go off conventionally on turn three, but not with Hunting Pack.

Now, that doesn't mean that Hunting Pack has no place here, just that it's role is not going to be "to be fast". Having an alternate win condition can be excellent, and the deck may still benefit from having some way to make do with loads of untap but very little draw. That said, the new build has far fewer dead cards when comboing, making it much easier to combo off from a blind meditate

So for now, I think I'll be putting HP away. Once we have the new build optimised in one colour we can start thinking about splashes, but I think we can all agree that, all things being equal, a monocolour deck is the way to go.
As far as the green splash goes, Tangle and Krosan Grip have been the strongest cards in my experience. Hunting Pack is great in some hands but you basically need to have everything else in hand to go off and get to 5GG after an untap. I find Tangle to be an easier solution to the same problem because it bides you time to find what you need and hit land drops. Also, you can chain them together or ride Snapcaster flashbacks to loads of extra turns. I've taken a 4th turn Tangle with lethal on the board into Snapcaster flashback into another Tangle into a kill plenty of times. Taking 6 extra turns against aggro is pretty dam good, even 2 can get there, but with most builds running 2-4 Snapcaster, you can be sure that if you draw Tangle, you'll have a good chance of taking 4 extra turns on the aggro player.

Krosan Grip is just fantastic against Counterbalance. Sometimes, you can't just bounce it and go off because you might run into a handful of countermagic. Getting rid of it permanently gives you a much better chance of having a successful combo chain.

[ScatmanX]

As far as the green splash goes, Tangle and Krosan Grip have been the strongest cards in my experience. Hunting Pack is great in some hands but you basically need to have everything else in hand to go off and get to 5GG after an untap. I find Tangle to be an easier solution to the same problem because it bides you time to find what you need and hit land drops. Also, you can chain them together or ride Snapcaster flashbacks to loads of extra turns. I've taken a 4th turn Tangle with lethal on the board into Snapcaster flashback into another Tangle into a kill plenty of times. Taking 6 extra turns against aggro is pretty dam good, even 2 can get there, but with most builds running 2-4 Snapcaster, you can be sure that if you draw Tangle, you'll have a good chance of taking 4 extra turns on the aggro player.

Krosan Grip is just fantastic against Counterbalance. Sometimes, you can't just bounce it and go off because you might run into a handful of countermagic. Getting rid of it permanently gives you a much better chance of having a successful combo chain.
How does your Ug board looks like, and how do you side against UW/Esper Stoneblade?
Tangle and Krosan could buy you lots of turns in matchups like that too, but are they worth it there?

[Spigore]

Krosan Grip is just fantastic against Counterbalance. Sometimes, you can't just bounce it and go off because you might run into a handful of countermagic. Getting rid of it permanently gives you a much better chance of having a successful combo chain.

Wipe Away has always been the powerful answer to Counterbalance. End of turn bouncing and going for the combo is the way to go.
I'd like to know in which situation Grip comes in as a valueable card.

[benthetenor]

Wipe Away has always been the powerful answer to Counterbalance. End of turn bouncing and going for the combo is the way to go.
I'd like to know in which situation Grip comes in as a valueable card.

The thought has always been that Wipe Away is great the turn you're going to go off, but Counterbalance's strength isn't just stopping you from going off, it's disrupting your ability to setup the combo, too. It's for that reason that Krosan Grip is stronger; it deals with Counterbalance in the turns before you have to go off so that you can sculpt your hand. If they give you 10 turns to just draw, play lands and sculpt your hand that way, then it's irrelevant, but in a vacuum, Krosan Grip is a much better answer. You have to weigh that against having a land that's vulnerable to Wasteland in all of your matchups though, but most people seem to feel that that's a minor point. The much bigger point in my mind is, where do you live where Counterbalance is a significant portion of the metagame? I think it's pretty much a non-issue.

[benthetenor]

Just got back from a GPT for Atlanta. I did moderately well, going 3-0-1 before being unable to win just one of the two rounds that I needed to Top 8. It's frustrating to be one game away twice and not able to make it happen. Now I know how the Texas Rangers feel....

But anyway, aside from only going on like 3.5 hours of sleep, the deck performed well. I beat MUD 2-0, beat Maverick 2-1, ID'd with a teammate playing Dredge, beat Aggro Loam 2-1, then lost in three against Blouses (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44895) and lost in three against Maverick again. I came to a revelation about how I was sideboarding, and decided it was all wrong for a couple of matches.

For one, I played a Rebuild and it did definitely pull it's weight. I faced a couple of Chalices in the Aggro Loam deck, and I wiped the board against MUD. In neither of them could I not have done just fine with a Wipe Away, but it definitely would have been more difficult. As it was, there were a lot of Chalices floating around, so I was okay with it. For another, I need to apologize for not taking Maverick seriously. Pre-board is a joke, post-board can be rough.

I decided I don't like boarding in bounce spells. In all of the matches where you want to have the bounce spell, you're trying to be the aggressor, but siding in bounce spells puts you on the defensive. It forces you to play through whatever hate they've got which will definitely slow you down, and save your bounce spell for when you're about to go off. That is just fundamentally the wrong mindset to be in. The round I lost to Maverick, I crushed him game 1, then he went Mother of Runes -> Ethersworn Canonist -> Thaila both of the next two games. I actually had the Wipe Away in hand the whole time, but that kind of pressure was seriously wrecking my ability to do anything and my deck didn't get there just from drawing off of the top.

It made me really reconsider what it is that the cards we're boarding in in that matchup in particular, but in the matchups where we're trying to be the beatdown, in general, are even doing. Wipe Away isn't dealing with the Ethersworn Canonist that's squeezing our turns and wrecking our ability to set things up. And Ethersworn Canonist was the reason why I lost; without being able to cast multiple spells a turn, I couldn't Snapcaster stuff back or dig with multiple spells a turn. I decided it's sort of like Feldman's (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21777_The_Dark_Art_Of_Dredge_Fu.html) approach to boarding in Dredge. He was boarding in tons of cards that didn't actually win him the game even when he drew them and could use them, and so was just wasting SB space, and worst of all, costing him post-board games because he was relying on something that didn't actually work.

What I'm proposing is that we need cards that actually deal with what we're being challenged with, rather than bounce to temporarily get them out of play so we can win. There are a lot of options for this matchup in other colors: red has Sudden Shock, green has Krosan Grip, even black has Massacre which is probably the most perfect anti-Maverick card ever invented. But I think the answer, or at least one good answer that's available to us without splashing a color, is Annul.

Annul gets: everything in Stax/MUD, including Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere, Ethersworn Canonist, Choke, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Counterbalance, Pyrostatic Pillar, Tormod's Crypt, hardcast Leylines, and a whole plethora of randomly devastating enchantments like Stasis and Arcane Laboratory. Even better, it gets rid of them so they're not a problem anymore. No replaying, no recursion, just gone and countered and un-protectable with Mother of Runes. We already have a very good set of cards to deal with creatures in maindeck Snap, but almost everything that people bring it to beat us is either an Artifact or an Enchantment, so now we have something to complement the Flusterstorms. And yes, Spell Pierce does all of that combined, but it's not going to be very effective against MUD and it can't hit Ethersworn Canonist, which is the only card from Maverick that absolutely has to be dealt with.

That's what I've come to realize. In this deck, when we're trying to be the aggressor, the key is not to have cards that will devastate them and take control of the matchup, the key is to simply have cards that deal with the cards that they're bringing in. I won every game 1 this tournament. Just blew people out pre-board. But post-board, every single one of them brought in something that caused at least some level of problems, and it was almost always an Artifact or Enchantment. We shouldn't be sideboarding to wreck Maverick. We should be sideboarding to stop their sideboard cards, since we crush their maindeck.

It sucks that Annul can't deal with any of those cards if they've already hit, which is why I'd still have some kind of bounce in the sideboard. Rebuild, like I said, really pulled it's weight, though I'm unsure if I even need it in addition to 3 Annul. Maybe 2 Annul and a Rebuild would be better, but I also don't think I'd ever see it early if I didn't have at least 3. Echoing Truth is probably the most flexible bounce spell we have, mostly because it can hit everything and turns into a business spell if you need it to. But Annul, costing just one mana, will be up turn 1 every time it's in hand, and it offers the potential to really screw with their tempo, much like using Red Elemental Blast on a big expensive blue spell like Stroke of Genius or Force of Will. And it means you don't have to expose yourself to Wasteland, which is good considering that the matchups you'd board it in against almost all play Wasteland. Which could be not a huge issue, but I'd rather not be exposed to Wasteland if I can help it.

So, as a result, here's what my sideboard is going to look like going forward:

4 Brain Freeze, Meditate, Stroke of Genius, Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild, 2 Flusterstorm OR 3 Flusterstorm
3 Annul
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap

This way I can stay aggressive in the matchups where I'm supposed to be (Stoneblade, Maverick, RUG Delver, MUD) and otherwise trip up the decks that are faster than us to knock them down to our speed (Reanimator, Dredge, most combo). If I can successfully do that, I think I have a solid gameplan for every matchup. It needs testing. For sure. But I think there's merit to it. I'm going to do as much testing as I can to prepare for SCG St. Louis which is rapidly approaching. If you guys can make it to that one, you'll definitely see me there, rocking this deck. It's got the power-level it needs to compete in modern-day Legacy. Today's tournament proved it to me beyond a doubt. Playtesting is one thing but playing against actual opponents with prize on the line is the best testing there is. This deck is way more resilient than any other combo deck to any kind of disruption. I never felt completely out of any of the matches, which is probably the first time that's ever happened with any deck. I think this is probably the best, if not one of the most difficult, decks that exists in Legacy and I'm glad it's the one I hitched my wagon to. Though I'm probably going to stop calling it Solidarity....yuck.

[Silent Requiem]

First of all, thanks for the detailed feedback. This is exactly what we need. I had been intending to take the deck to a tournament too, but my plans fell through two days before the tournament. Sometimes, work just sucks. :D

Let me tell you that I feel you on Maverick. At GP Amsterdam, the GP where my performance was so poor that I shelved Solidarity in favour of ANT until your new build caught my interest, I faced two decks that gave me problems: Reanimator (because I attract Reanimator like donuts attract fat kids) and Maverick.

Like you, I had strong game 1's against Maverick. And then they sideboarded in 12 hate cards. One guy told me straight up that, with the exception of a few slots for Dredge/Reanimator, his entire sideboard was devoted to the Storm matchup. Solidarity was simply too slow to race that kind of hate, so I moved on to a faster combo deck.


We shouldn't be sideboarding to wreck Maverick. We should be sideboarding to stop their sideboard cards, since we crush their maindeck.

This is pretty much the key point. We are a very, very niche deck, with a very, very specific strategy - much like Dredge. Dredge does not sideboard to improve it's matchups, it sideboards to fight the hate it will see in games 2 & 3. We need to do the same.

The difficulty with this approach is that Solidarity is also a pretty slow deck, which means our sideboard also needs to provide ways to slow down faster decks - which could be pretty much anyone! The new build goes a long way to addressing that by being a consistent turn 3 win. While we need a plan for faster combo, we should be able to race aggro without relying on sideboard cards now.

Is Annul the right answer? I don't know. It sure as hell wasn't, but again, things have changed. I no longer care about Gaddock Teag, for example. T1 Lacky or Nacatl are no longer particularly scary. I'm not even sure that I'm particularly worried about Dredge, either (I've not seen LED Dredge for a long while - and without LED they are just too slow to shut us down).

So perhaps Annul would give us the edge we need. It even has a role in shutting down LED, now that I think about it. While I've not yet had any tournament play with this build, I do agree that the deck has never felt this dominating. My wins no longer feel like I barely got there, but more like I simply smashed my opponent.

Here are my initial thoughts on your sideboard, then. First, lose Turnabout. We have 10 maindeck untap effects, as opposed to the 7 of traditional Solidarity. We can also give those untap effects flashback. And Wishing for Turnabout rarely generates much mana.

Next, I'd retune the graveyard hate. Who is this for? If it's Reanimator, SE is just going to get countered anyway (I used to run Faerie Macabre in this spot for that reason) - they have 8 maindeck counters (if you count Daze) and the dig to make sure they find them. Of course Faerie Macabre isn't good enough either, but I accepted Reanimator as a loss a long time ago.

If it's Dredge, though, SE doesn't actually do that much. Do we really need this? Dropping down to 1 RT and 1 SE would give us wish targets, while freeing up another two slots for our anti-hate hate.

So, what about this?

3 Brainfreeze, Meditate, Stroke of Genius
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pact of Negation/Mindbreak Trap
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
3 Annul
3 Flusterstorm

Edit: A strategy like this, which involves loads of answers in the sideboard, might merit a maindeck change of -1 Brainfreeze, +1 Cunning Wish. We could then side out -2 Turnabout, -1 Brainfreeze (leaving no MD win condition) and bring in 3 of the appropriate counters, be they Flusterstorm or Annul, depending on the matchup, while still leaving us with 4 (!) ways of fetching an answer for anything that slips past the counters.

[benthetenor]

That's an interesting idea. The main reason why I'm currently running 3 Surgical Extraction and one Ravenous Trap is because I've found it to be a pretty decent set of cards against Dredge, while not completely forfeiting the Reanimator matchup. Surgical Extraction, in concert with Snapcaster Mage, does a decent job of slowing Reanimator down to the point where I can resolve a Cunning Wish for Ravenous Trap to completely blow them out, and on occasion completely shutting them down. I also like that I can hit their Cabal Therapies with them and no longer fear them interacting with me. In a perfect world, I'd just run Leyline of the Void. Well, in a perfect world, I'd also run Yixlid Jailer, Tormod's Crypt, Surgical Extraction and Relic of Progenitus, but our board is already too small to make all of that work.

If I were to just accept Reanimator as a loss, then a better split would include multiple Ravenous Trap, since that card just blows them out. I never liked Crypt effects against Dredge because a good Dredge player can easily play around them (and in fact has to, in order to survive) but for some reason Ravenous Trap just destroys them. Maybe it's because it comes out of nowhere, or just isn't sitting on the table looking at them. Maybe it's because the new versions are way more reliant on LED and dredging lots and lots of cards at once, as opposed to playing Tireless Tribe and slow-rolling the dredgers. It's definitely not just because most dredge players are bad (they are), because my good friend who's an incredibly skilled dredge player still gets blown out. Maybe I'm just used to playing against Vintage Dredge.

Part of me is really intrigued at the idea of a black splash. I almost think that Massacre alone would be enough of a reason to do it, but then you factor in Extirpate which can't be countered against Reanimator, and the chance to run 4 completely different kinds of graveyard hate to completely destroy Dredge's ability to function. But then, cards that aren't instants aren't a great place to start. It's probably a bad idea, just thinking out loud.

What really needs to happen is I need to playtest specifically to see what it will take to make sure I can beat Dredge and Reanimator consistently. It's very likely it's going to take 5+ cards, which is just not something I can afford to do, in which case I'd be on board with abandoning multiples of anti-graveyard cards. Removing the SB Turnabout is very interesting, too. In old builds of Solidarity, it was somewhat rare for me to wish for Turnabout, maybe once in 40 games, and in this one with 4 Snap and Snapcaster Mages to regrow untap effects, I think I've wished for a Turnabout once, and never mid-going-off. It's kind of like a security blanket, but yeah, it's probably not one that's going to matter more than one game in a thousand, if even that many.

What surprised me over the weekend is that opponent's removal never, not once, was an issue. They must have been boarding out their Swords to Plowshares and stuff because I never saw it game 2, and I never had it pointed at a Snapcaster Mage. Even against friends in playtest games, it's never really been a play that they've felt was worth making. I think that with people having no idea what this deck does, it's even more of a non-issue than I thought.

I'll think on your proposed sideboard, test it out. At the very least I'm cutting the Turnabout and then making a note of any game where I would ever need to wish for it. I'm guessing it's never going to come up, but we could always be wrong. For now I'll put back in the Pact of Negation since I really liked what that does in the RUG matchup. We really need a blue Disenchant. Or Deathmark. Or Pyroclasm.

[Silent Requiem]

In fairness, I'd not considered the Snapcaster/Surgical interaction, as I'd played SE in a classic style deck. That might actually make SE worthwhile. I'll see if I can find a Reanimator player to test against.

[ScatmanX]

In fairness, I'd not considered the Snapcaster/Surgical interaction, as I'd played SE in a classic style deck. That might actually make SE worthwhile. I'll see if I can find a Reanimator player to test against.
Imo, 3 Surgicals +4 Snapcasters +1 R.Trap, +4 FoW, can make the Reanimator match not that bad, while making Dredge a little favorable. Thats not even counting the Pierce/Fluster we might run.
Removing Turnabout seems actually very feasible. My sb should look something like this now:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze

1 Meditate

1 Rebuild (still worth it over here)
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth

1 Ravenous Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
1 Mindbreak Trap
If Annul proves iself to be a good card, then -1 MB. Trap, -1 Pierce, -1 Rebuild could bite the dust.

[SupREME-10]

I run

1x Ravenous Trap
2x Surgical Extraction
in my sideboard as I also find it a bomb vs Dredge. Reanimator is an issue still but our control package gives options, and even Grislebrand needs 3 attack phases to kill you off and with
Snapcaster Mage
Snap
in the deck you can go off with 3 Islands onboard (4 is still better obviously).

I am not sure what I would cut to bring another Surgical Extraction into my deck; but I do feel that it would be worthwhile vs Reanimator for sure.

Good discussion guys, thanks.

[wolfstorm]

I run

1x Ravenous Trap
2x Surgical Extraction
in my sideboard as I also find it a bomb vs Dredge. Reanimator is an issue still but our control package gives options, and even Grislebrand needs 3 attack phases to kill you off and with
Snapcaster Mage
Snap
in the deck you can go off with 3 Islands onboard (4 is still better obviously).

I am not sure what I would cut to bring another Surgical Extraction into my deck; but I do feel that it would be worthwhile vs Reanimator for sure.

Good discussion guys, thanks.


Yea but with decks running griselbrand they usually can find a way post brand to kill you in 1 or 2 combat phases.. :/

[SupREME-10]

That is why we also have a Control Package Maindeck and extra's in the side... it is not perfect; but it is where we are at....

Cheers

[Nuorukain]

Hi again, smashed an 18 player GPT-G(h)ent with a 6-1 record with that pile. just
5minutes before the tournament the decklist was -2 disrupt +1 island +1 remand,
but I got the last minute realisation that there are SWAMPS and whatnot floating around. (last minute scouting and alterations are sometimes nuts.)

So now I've got the byes for Gent, what will the metagame be in there, and what to do for the main/side for the main event?
How to make the various delvermatchups more tolerable?
(+time to book flights&start checking for hostels/etc. Anyone living near there& having a sofa to crash?) ;)

Against how many of the decks below you do not wish to run 4x maindeck disrupts?

The metagame breakdown(apparently -1 deck.)
1x Sneak & Tell
1x Belcker
2x High tide (1 candelabralla)
1x Reanimator
1x Naya Aggro
1x Painter
2x UR delver
1x Maverick
1x MUD
1x Stoneblade
1x BUG (tune up)

Decklist spam;

Hyvärinen Mikko: Solidarity
4x Hightide
4x Brainstorm
4x Impulse
4x Force of Will
4x Reset
3x Remand
3x Meditate
3x Cunning Wish
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Flash of Insight
1x Brain Freeze
2x Opt
4x Disrupt
2x Turnabout
1x Tropical Island
1x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
10x Island
SB:
Meditate
Blue Sun's Zenith
Brainfreeze
Turnabout
Hunting Pack
Echoing Truth
Hurkyl's Recall
Snap
Wipe Away
Surgical Extraction
2x Flusterstorm
Twincast
Divert
Cryptic Command

[GoldenCid]

Wow! Congrats!

Strange list to my: Tell me how did the 4 disrupt work? FoI and Snapcaster are a bit antisinergic, what can you tell us?
Did 1 divert 1 command and 1 twincast worth in the side as wish target?

Congrats again!

[Nuorukain]

Wow! Congrats!

Strange list to my: Tell me how did the 4 disrupt work? FoI and Snapcaster are a bit antisinergic, what can you tell us?
Did 1 divert 1 command and 1 twincast worth in the side as wish target?

Congrats again!


4x disrupts were/are nuts on the play. Sideboardable in some amount of matches when on the draw. The dis-synergy of FOI&snapcaster does not really matter, as you're still able to leave enough gas into the grave yard either way. (+FOI still protects key cards from Surgical Extraction.) (more than half of my opponents seem to have them all of the time...

Twincast in the side is something I would not cut. Rather try to figure out how to make room for more. And the divert ain't too bad, BUT it could be something else, like the 3'rd fluster or 2'nd surgical.... or even a snap. or repeal. or. You know how it goes.. ;)

Command is competing on the slot with repeal, and at the moment, I feel like using the swiss army knife of cryptic, as it is relatively often sideboardable in. AND I love to play the deck as a comboCONTROL-deck, and thus have atleast that as a hard counter...

Oh, and today was another GPT. some 20'ish players, bit more serious meta. Went 5-0-2 (including one ID, one real draw. Splitting the finals (eg. I scooped pre-match), as I already had the byes... So another victory in a row. The disrupts are sickly good especially in the case you happen to sweep the swiss...
when choosing to start each top8 match... it is kind of cruel....

[Silent Requiem]

A very interesting list.

Disrupt and I go way back. I tested it at the time I started playing Solidarity, but back then the meta was Merfolk (no instants/sorceries), Zoo (burn, held back until the late game), Goblins (no instants/sorceries) and Countertop (just a few cantrips).

Now however, we have Reanimator, Show & Tell decks and RUG. Even Maverick is using GSZ. Seems like a good meta call for the moment.

Of course, even after they know you play it, trying to play around Disrupt delays them until Remand comes online. And then Cunning Wish for Misdirection becomes an issue. Overall, a very powerful disruption package.

My one complaint would be the sacrifice of the Snap package. Granted, you've placed well in two small but serious tournaments, and I've not even managed to enter one yet (so take this with a grain of salt), but it seems to me that by dropping Snap you are weaker to creature based disruption (and there is plenty of that around), as well as losing the ability to go off consistently on turn three. I'm guessing your fizzle rate, while acceptable, is also higher, too, as Remand and Disrupt are very inefficient cantrips during the the combo.

You also lose some of your strength in the long, attrition game (although you have better tools to reach the long game). Visions of Beyond can quickly and cheaply refill your hand, whereas Disrupt and Remand stop being counters and simply become very expensive cantrips.

In a sense, I see Solidarity becoming two different decks. There has always been a tension between the desire to go faster and the desire to be more controling, but it looks like Snapcaster (which amplifies your other card choices) finally allows pilots to significantly vary the deck based on their preference of speed v control.

We seem to live in interesting times. Of course, if WotC decides to give us Christmas in June, Frantic Search would further amplify this distinction (you can use it to speed up the combo, or to dig for counters).

[Nuorukain]

A very interesting list.

Disrupt and I go way back. I tested it at the time I started playing Solidarity, but back then the meta was Merfolk (no instants/sorceries), Zoo (burn, held back until the late game), Goblins (no instants/sorceries) and Countertop (just a few cantrips).

Now however, we have Reanimator, Show & Tell decks and RUG. Even Maverick is using GSZ. Seems like a good meta call for the moment.

Of course, even after they know you play it, trying to play around Disrupt delays them until Remand comes online. And then Cunning Wish for Misdirection becomes an issue. Overall, a very powerful disruption package.

My one complaint would be the sacrifice of the Snap package. Granted, you've placed well in two small but serious tournaments, and I've not even managed to enter one yet (so take this with a grain of salt), but it seems to me that by dropping Snap you are weaker to creature based disruption (and there is plenty of that around), as well as losing the ability to go off consistently on turn three. I'm guessing your fizzle rate, while acceptable, is also higher, too, as Remand and Disrupt are very inefficient cantrips during the the combo.

You also lose some of your strength in the long, attrition game (although you have better tools to reach the long game). Visions of Beyond can quickly and cheaply refill your hand, whereas Disrupt and Remand stop being counters and simply become very expensive cantrips.

In a sense, I see Solidarity becoming two different decks. There has always been a tension between the desire to go faster and the desire to be more controling, but it looks like Snapcaster (which amplifies your other card choices) finally allows pilots to significantly vary the deck based on their preference of speed v control.

We seem to live in interesting times. Of course, if WotC decides to give us Christmas in June, Frantic Search would further amplify this distinction (you can use it to speed up the combo, or to dig for counters).

*grins* I've tinkered a bit with the snaps, but if I were to play them, they'd only be in the sideboard to be used in appropriate matchups. Imho heavy commitment to the snap-engine reduces the flexibility of the deck against gravehate,stiffles and spell snares for example.
Also having the snap-version gives (atleast to me) you the mental push to be in the "combo role", as the variety of answers opponent can top deck&have increases more a bit by bit(mainly instead of having a blank bolt of 3damage to the head(stops, what not), they now have an additional 1 casting hard counter.
But oh the benefits of increasing the going off rate on t3 in response to their
"in end of your turn Vendilion Clique/intuition"-etc plays feels highly valuable.

The inefficiency of disrupt as a cantrip in the combo phase is true, but by succesfully resolving them precombo, you're more often than not gained extra turn/draws or protected a key piece from being discarded. Which in my opinion directly compensates against the loss of value in the combo mode. (I could argue that once you've succesfully played one disrupt to opponents cantrip/1cc discard, you've gained edge enough to be drawing 2 "blank" disrupts later in the game and still be in the same position for comboing as you would have without having them at all! (bad math, anyone?) (and once you're succesfully disrupted TWICE not mulliganed, and not yet dead, you've already have quite a nice position for critical massing to the win.)

But yes, there will be a game once in many dozens where an Opt/visions could have won the game. But I'll argue that I've now won more games with the disrupts in 5-6 tournaments, than I will lose to due them in the next 20 tournaments.
Only the amount of, and SB/MD varies depending on the meta I'm expecting.
Then again, I'm more used to/adapt to the stronger controll role, and that is propably one of my slight weaknesses as a Solitary-player.
I'm not necessarily going for the combo mode in the matchups were it would be stronger. But then again, opponents tend to misalign themselves into the controll role, and once I've just sided/build the deck to be in THE controll role, it usually is a good game! ;)

But to the creature based disruption argument; as it is true in a sense, there is only 5 slots for bounce in the sideboard, and Hurkyl hits only the Ethersworn Canonist, thus I've only got 4 bounces in the side to add against the hatebear.dcks. See anything relating to the amount of disrupts in the main?

I used to run Hibernation, but started feeling like the matchups where hibernation wins are not too bad even without it. (+in many situations, cryptic performs the same way, WHILE being able to bounce non green bears too.).
But yes, I'm still thinking how I could add 1 bounce more into the side.
Propably it is the divert there that I don't really need(simply bad when the opponent just lets the tide resolve while holding good amount of permission)...

About the direction of the deck. Imho. If you call it solidarity, it needs to be a combo-controll or controll-combo deck. It has always(atleast for me) been the finding of the correct balance between combo&controll that makes this deck win matches and tournaments (including the extremely high demand of piloting skills) and knowing when you should be in which role (and the correct role can alter x-times in a turn. Confusing, huh?).

If one wants to pilot an instant speed hightidecombo with snaps&snapcasters because it is a cool and relatively competent roguedeck, by all means have fun, and win tournaments with it, do well! (and well, doing well with it is propably helped a lot if you can handle any form of Solidarity.) (then I'll win some matches more as opponents think I'll be relaying on playing a snap into my snapcaster at some point or some other misconseption... )

But yes, I don't recall if I've already bragged here or not(?) but,
of almost 200 tournament matches I've played with the deck, I've managed to squeeze the match win rate close to 65% (+/- 1-4% or so. Yes, I did calculate them at some point, so this was not bogus statistics. Though removed intentional draws out of the equation) and I know I do make mistakes...

Yesterday I made propably more than a dozen mistakes, two days ago made propably around ten. AND those only the ones I noticed. Quite a few times, after losing a game I realise the mistake which caused the loss. Thus it is simply sick, that with perfect play&metagaming&tuning that decks average win persentage has to be higher than what I've acquired. That is scary.

Well, if everyone starts playing white stax with 12x sphere of resistance +4x defence grids or UR-Painter, the percentage will drop...

Not to mention that the Delver decks are annoyingly bad matchups. Would the snap-version be answer to that?

[Kanti]

Glad the Rebuild did it's work Ben. Really sucks to hear that you couldn't make it farther in the tourney, especially after a 3-0 start.

On Annul; It's an awesome idea but it doesn't deal with Thalia, and of course it doesn't deal with problem permanents that are already in play. Steel Sabotage might be a bit better than it as it can deal with resolved threats. Enchantments rarely bother this deck anways (Choke can be played around with naturally or with untap effects, Wheel of Sun and Moon is barely played and U/g builds can just go with Pack, Leylines are always completely and utterly ignored as we just goldfish and then bounce them with Wish>Wipe Away at the end of our 25+ storm combo chain).

It would probably be just as good if not better than Wipe Away versus the Counter-top decks that are popping up, though. You are still going to have to run some kind of bounce that deals with enchantments in your wishboard to bounce turn 0 WLeylines. So you would be running like 3 Annul 1 Wipe Away or some crap, and if you wanted to run Rebuild you'd have to dedecate yet another (though I don't think Rebuild would be needed with 3 Annuls)

A cool card I found while in the gatherer was Sapphire Charm. If it was instant draw I'd play 4 of those in a heartbeat, but alas ;_;. I was thinking of testing a 1-of as a replacement Opt, just to have some more answers to hate-bears. It would probably suck ass though.

In regards to gy hate, I've been testing vs Dredge a lot and just can't seem to beat them without running a Ravenous Trap in my graveyard. Doubling on Extractions is amazing and slows them down a ton, and they will sometimes win it, but when I didn't have the Trap in my side I was losing games that should have been easy wins. I'd say that if you want to beat Dredge you are probably going to need to keep the Wish>Trap plan an option, or run 5+ gy.

Taking out the Turnabout is interesting, as they will come out in many matches, but I'm not sure that it's the soundest idea with Delver about. Though the number of Spell Snares is going down there are still decks (Delver, anything Counterbalance) where Turnabout helps a ton. If you find yourself siding out Turnabouts in those match-ups though then yes, by all means cut the Turnabout in your sideboard and run some other solid card.

Calling this deck anything but Solidarity is stupid. Before Remand existed there was a blue deck that ran High Tide, Reset, and instants, and that deck was called Solidarity. Snapcaster is running the control route nowadays and we are still playing the same deck, Solidarity. Have some damn solidarity yourself ;b.

my sb, for reference;

1 Hunting Pack
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Rebuild
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ravenous Trap
4 Flusterstorm
2 Wipe Away
2 Surgical Extraction

I bring in 4 Flusters versus RUG, Reanimator, Sneak and Show, and Storm decks. So they are staying. Hunting Pack pulls is weight all day, so it's staying as well. I suggest you guys test the shit out of Pack in the Snapcaster builds, as it's still amazing.

I'd like to try -1 Rebuild, -1 Wipe Away, -1 Surgical, +3 Annul/Steel Sabotage. That way I can side in the Annuls and keep a Wipe Away to Wish for. That seems really saucy.

[Vacrix]

@pilots playing the green splash
Hunting Pack is cool but Tangle often does the same thing and more by buying you time against aggressive decks. Two turns for 1G is pretty good on its own but you can Snapcaster it or even Snap/Snapcaster to chain yourself into more of them. Psuedo-Turbo Fog in Solidarity is pretty fucking cool. Granted, it takes up more sideboard space, but all you need for the control matchup is side out some FoW's, board in some Mindbreak Traps.

[Kanti]

Tangle is totally gonna make me a horde of 4/4's.

Tangle is not a kill condition. And it sucks as it opens you up hardcore to Wasteland (Your Tropical will get Wasted before you cast it again, versus only having x2 untaps and casting Hunting Pack once).

[Vacrix]

Against Wasteland, Hunting Pack is worse. A good opponent will wait for you to go off to use it, like respond to Reset with Wasteland on your Trop. You lose the Trop and don't get to your 2nd green mana to cast Hunting Pack. Its happened to me before. Against Goblins, yeah they Wasteland you sure. But that doesn't mean you don't get 2 extra turns to do something. I've had Goblins Wasteland me twice before after casting Tangle and yet, I bought myself a solid 4 turns, hit more land drops, and just won with a well sculpted hand.

I'd say try it before you judge it in fear of Wasteland. They don't always draw Wasteland and when they do, it doesn't always mean you are short an Island before you go off either because there are still extra turns to replace your land drops. Then there are times that you just chain a bunch of Tangles together with Snapcaster tricks and watch your opponent pulling their hair out while you play sideboard TurboFog in a storm combo deck.

[lavafrogg]

I just took the red splash from a few years ago, with some minor updates, on a spin through MWS and had a great time. It almost seems superior to the green version against certain decks. The green version gets tangle, grip and hunting pack for an alternate kill. The red version gets sudden shock/volcanic fallout, red blast's and urza's rage as the alternate win con.

Blasts seem better against all of the faster combo running around at the moment, sudden shock deals with one hate bear while fallout deals with multiples. The alternate kill is just for shits and giggles but is really fun. You could always bring in bolts to deal with "quick" aggro and by yourself a few turns.

[Kanti]

Against Wasteland, Hunting Pack is worse. A good opponent will wait for you to go off to use it, like respond to Reset with Wasteland on your Trop. You lose the Trop and don't get to your 2nd green mana to cast Hunting Pack. Its happened to me before. Against Goblins, yeah they Wasteland you sure. But that doesn't mean you don't get 2 extra turns to do something. I've had Goblins Wasteland me twice before after casting Tangle and yet, I bought myself a solid 4 turns, hit more land drops, and just won with a well sculpted hand.

I'd say try it before you judge it in fear of Wasteland. They don't always draw Wasteland and when they do, it doesn't always mean you are short an Island before you go off either because there are still extra turns to replace your land drops. Then there are times that you just chain a bunch of Tangles together with Snapcaster tricks and watch your opponent pulling their hair out while you play sideboard TurboFog in a storm combo deck.

I mentioned in my post having x2 untaps and going off with Pack. The point that I was trying to get across was that you can go off against a Wasteland with x2 untap effects. (Untap1, Waste, in response Untap2 and you have the 2 green mana. Not that hard). A good opponent would probably keep a Wasteland open game two, but why in the world would someone ever run head first into that if they knew they weren't prepared to go around the Waste?

With Tangle you will be casting the spell and not winning that turn. This is pretty much the biggest reason I don't like Tangle, and the same reason I don't like running Krosan Grip unless my meta is just crawling with CB-tops.

With Hunting Pack you are fetching your Tropical Island for one reason and one reason only, to cast Pack. And when that happens you will most likely win.

The aggro-matchup has been more than shored up with 4 Snapcasters/3 Snaps.

[ScatmanX]

I played a tournament with Solidarity this Sunday, and I stinked.
The only thing I'd like to share is that I played 2 Annul on the side.
It came in against UW Miracles, and countered 2 Counterbalances and a Cannonist.
Against a Stax deck, it would have won me the game if I have drawn it instead of Force.
Against Shot in the Dark it countered 2 Counterbalances.
Overallal, I was really impressed with it.

[blue player]

Woo first post on the source!

I love this deck and have been playing with it for a little over a month now. The complexities and directions you can go make the deck really fun to play. I have been trying the "snap" version for a while now and I know I have a lot of practicing to do but is there a way to increase game one against RUG? Early Pressure, Stifles, spell snares/ pierces plus force can just win before I can get through the wall. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't just me playing badly rather than it just being a difficult preboard matchup. Otherwise,really fun deck i'm glad I decided to give this deck a go rather than a boring SnT deck.

[benthetenor]

No worries, it's a very difficult matchup. It can be improved with tight play, and a lot of percentage points can be gained by knowing what kind of hand they have (fast, disruption, etc) and playing the role you need to in order to beat that particular hand. Peek helps a lot here, as well as just playing the matchup a lot and spotting trends.

The Disrupt is very interesting, and I've always been a fan. What I love about it more than anything else is that you can board out some or all of them game two and three and still get the effect of slowing them down. I think I like them more than even Remand, though they definitely do different things, but they do so much more against counterspells and against discard, which are two of the scariest things to face. If you've got room for them, or are still playing Opt, I'd definitely go for Disrupt instead, especially in a metagame infested with Reanimator and Show and Tell.

And glad to hear about your testing with Annul; I've been out of town for a week and so haven't gotten a chance to actually test it yet, but it's encouraging that you're getting good results. As far as what it deals with/doesn't deal with, the main thing I take issue with is sideboarding in bounce. That's like playing to lose. If they resolve a problem permanent like a Counterbalance or a Pyrostatic Pillar, then the plan becomes wait until you're going to go off, bounce it, and proceed. The problem with that plan is that the permanent in question is doing it's job in the mean time, and they then get a chance to untap and protect the problem permanent. If there's a permanent that's going to wreck us, it seems like a much better idea to deal with it as it's being cast, when they're least prepared to defend it, rather than giving them a chance to untap. I don't know that Annul is the right answer, but it does seem like it's better than Wipe Away. There's a reason why Gearhart took the radical step of splashing a color specifically to deal with a matchup where he would definitely see Wastelands, and it's because just bouncing the permanent isn't nearly effective enough. Part of me things that going back to a Sudden Shock build would solve a lot of the problems that we're encountering but Annul is a nice potential answer that doesn't jeopardize the mana base.

As for Thalia, I really don't care all that much. It sucks, but it's not the card that beats us in that matchup. Ethersworn Canonist is a beating.

[Vacrix]

I played a tournament with Solidarity this Sunday, and I stinked.
The only thing I'd like to share is that I played 2 Annul on the side.
It came in against UW Miracles, and countered 2 Counterbalances and a Cannonist.
Against a Stax deck, it would have won me the game if I have drawn it instead of Force.
Against Shot in the Dark it countered 2 Counterbalances.
Overallal, I was really impressed with it.
Annul seems good. It also counters Sneak Attack.

[benthetenor]

I think rather than my standard 1-mana cantrip selection of:

3 Visions of Beyond
2 Peek

I'm going to try running

2 Visions of Beyond
3 Disrupt

The theory being that Peek and Disrupt fill similar roles, with both being potential bomb cantrips in the control matchup. I always liked the idea of running Disrupt over Opt in older versions, and I love the fact that it's always at least a cantrip, and will usually be a 2 for 1, if not a 3 for 1 (hello, Force of Will!). With some of the most difficult matchups being fast combo and RUG Delver, I think that it would be a great addition, and every single deck in the format will have targets. The added play against the Gristlebrand combo decks like Reanimator and Show and Tell is even better, though Reanimator is probably still an awful matchup. At it's very worst, mid-combo, Disrupt is a 2-mana cantrip, vs. something like Remand which mid-combo is a 2+X mana cantrip, where X is the spell you're targeting.

I've run 2 Visions of Beyond before, and it's a little swingy-er than 3, but one thing it does is almost guarantee that, by the time you draw it, it's going to be Ancestral Recall. I think that it will still fulfill it's main role, which is to decrease the fizzle rate, at a 2-of, while giving me the flexibility to run 3 Disrupt. Testing will bear out if Disrupt is as incredible as I think it's going to be, but I'm optimistic. It's like a Peek that stops Duress.

The only downside to this plan is that, since it's part of my cantrip suite and those cantrips are fairly important in making land drops in my land-light build, I can't get loads of virtual card advantage by boarding them out and making them think I still have it, like I could if I were running them in addition to other cantrips or in an 18 land build. But that's a pretty minor point.

[SupREME-10]

I took my version of Solidarity to Thursday Night Legacy here is what I learned.

Match 1 vs Hypergensis -- not a great matchup for me, I lost game 1 in three turns as I never saw any control and I had not idea what he was playing. I could have gone off on the next turn; but his deck was just too fast with me not having any control in hand. Gmae 2, I worked through his first couple attempts and actually went off to use my entire library, Mill through 4 Emrakul's and then BSZ him to death (Hazzaa) he got into a bit discussion about his Emrakul effects still going off while I was casting - recasting Brainfreeze on him; but the Blue Sun's Zenith settled that discussion shortly. Game 3 went long and I was working into my combo when he used FoW (hardcast), FoW, and then Mindbreak trap to stall me. I failed to have any control cards in hand when he did the trap and lost on that one. Tough games for me, and my head hurt after those 3.

Match 2 vs BUG Control, and I mean serious Control. I lost games 1 and 2 but dragged them out to land at least 8-9 land in both games. I simply never got enough gas to finish him in a combo as he had a ton of control at all times. Poor Match-up for me I think.

Match 3 I drew another Control deck for Match-up and dropped as my head was hurting at that point.

The meta in my area has a lot of fast Combo and Control in it right now, so I think it might be better for me to just run my Merfolk for a while and come back to Solidarity when the meta evolves back to being more aggro, etc.

Cheers

[Vacrix]

I've found that against the slower control decks like BUG, they counter your cantrips with Spell Pierces and Spell Snares early on. Counterspells and Forces get saved for the combo turn. Ideally, in the post-board, Mindbreak Traps over Forces are pretty key. If they aren't playing Counterbalance MD or SB, then as long as they don't land Liliana, you should be fine. Discard here and there can suck but they usually only play 4 Inquisitions. I tend to use my Forces for Liliana and Jace. Otherwise they have no clock to speak of. I'd actually put this matchup in Solidarity's favor. I play it a lot and the only problem I ever have is with Counterbalance, for which Krosan Grip is a fantastic answer.


Also, I'm confused... This deck is only good in a combo and control heavy metagame. You beat combo with superior protection, and post-board Mindbreak Traps, and you beat control by playing around countermagic and just owning the stack with... Mindbreak Traps. Like, that card is fucking ridiculous in this deck. I wouldn't play less than 3 in the board. Its bad in an aggro metagame where the opponent can race you, and then play hate in game 2. Like Thalia? I don't want to run into that playing Solidarity. They have a clock, and maindeck hate? Can't deal with that. I'd say stick to Solidarity in your meta dude.

[fuga]

hi! It's the first time I write here, but I follow that discussion about solidarity deck from 2 years. I play that deck and the time spiral version too for 1 year and half.
two days ago I did 2 place in my city tournament with my solidarity deck. we were 10 players and there was 2 belcher decks, one UR burn, stoneblade, elves, stax, nick fit and one of my favourite...reanimtor.

the main list was:

4x brainstorm
2x opt
4x meditate
4x impulse
1x peer throught depths
1x flash og insight

3x disrupt
2x FOW (I only have 2 but I would like to running up 3max)
3x remand
2x spellpierce
2x repeal

4x hightide
4x reset
2x turnabout
3x cunning wish
1x brainfreeze

12x island
1x tropical island
5x fetch

the side was:

1x brainfreeze
1x hibernation
1x rebuild
1x spellpierce
1x wipe away
1x echoing truth
1x hunting pack (I never used it)
1x flusterstorm
1x words of wisdom
2x mindbreak trap (becouse I knew that will be 2 belcher)
1x turnabout
1x blue sun zenit
1x ravenous trap

matches

first match vs UR burn. I won 2-0, was an easy match, I sculpted my hand till have all the combo pieces and after, with 1fow, 1 spellpierce and 1 disrupt, I brainfreezed him.
after side I removed 1x hightide and put in 1x flusterstorm.
it's not so difficoult play around his counter, just be careful with his lightning bolt and lavamancer.

second match vs reanimator. one of the worse for me. I lose 0-2... first game he played iona on second turn, I tried to counter his reanimate but he played fow, daze. after side I removed the 2x repeal replacing them with 1x flusterstorm 1x spellpierce. I did many mistakes (I'm a little noob). I could won, but I lose when he reanimated jin-gitaxian.

third match vs stoneblade: very similiar to the ur burn, I just sculpted my hand storing my counters and I milled him in the 5th turn. after side (I knew that he had a 4x stiffle in side and 3x trckbind, he did it just for me) I only change 1x spellpierce with 1x flusterstorm. I start comboing on during the 5 turn when my opponent tapped out most of his mana (he had 4 lands, the 2 free were thundra and wasteland). he stiffled my brainfreeze, I remanded brain freeze 2 times and I won making him draw.

I don't remember if I did something more, but I passed to semifinal.

semifinal, again, vs URburn. same of the previous match I won 2-0. my opponent was very disappointed and sad, he counted every times all the manas that I added thinking that I cheated or something... this deck make people unhappy while comboing. gg URburn!

final vs reanimator: he was a friend so we decided to share the prizes.
fisrt match I had a very good hand, 2x disrupt 1x spellpierce, 1x hightide, 2x lands 1x brainstorm. he tried to reanimate on 2nd turn but I countered. after I waited his 4th turn to start comboing, but he had 3 counters as always: daze, spellpierce and fow. I forgot to played the second hightide that I draw during the combo because of the pressure he made me (I am noob), so I found myself without mana and a meditate played....in his next turn he played jin-gitaxian, so he won. I could won becouse with meditate I would draw 1 reset and 1 another meditate...
I won the second game freezing him in his 4th turn without problem (I think he held a realy bad hand) siding out the 2x repeal and changing them with flusterstorm and spellpierce.
third match he played iona during his second turn, I tried to counter with my two disrupts but he always had daze and fow.

what I think about the deck is that it is my favourite and I prefer it to the spiral tide, which I own too (candelabra-less), becouse of his versability during combo and because of the counters.
the thing that made me won the most of the times is that my opponent doesn't really know what to counter or discard. and that's amazing!
another one card that I found unexpectedly usefull was flash of insight. it saved me a lot of times and saved my high tide or reset from surgical extraction a lot of times more.
I decided to don't play surgical extraction in my side. I never used it and vs reanimator is not so strong. every time I prefer a counter as disrupt or spellpierce or flusterstorm to surgical. maybe I'm still noob and I don't understand the potencial of that cards...
I chose words of wisdom in side, anybody play it, because most of the times I have few mana in pool and spend 4 manas for blue sun zenit is too much. what do you think?
another thing, what do you think about hunting pack? should I remove it from side? most of the times my opponents waste my tropical...

sorry for my bad english....I hope you can undestand what I wrote! thank you for everything guys! :smile:

[Kich867]

Hey all, so, long story short--I ran out of money! I had to sell all of my "Fair" decks (Aggro Loam, UR Delver) to stay afloat for a little bit while I was trying to find a job. I just graduated with my degree in computer science and I didn't want to get some bullshit job that I had before college again, so selling all my shit was the only real option for me.

I still wanted to play magic though, so I built a fairly budget list for Solidarity, I already had snapcasters so I didn't have to invest in them. The only real budget point actually is that I'm running Pact of Negations over Force of Wills. I've never really been a -huge- fan of combo decks, but in particular I've always felt solidarity conceptually jived with me really well. Furthermore, I'm significantly better at piloting combo decks than I am other decks as unraveling the decision trees of them comes much more naturally to me. I'll be taking it to my first local tourney tomorrow night (if all goes as planned) and I'm actually really excited about it.

And as a double dose of awesome, I was just offered my first career level job, so it won't even have to be budget for much longer! Everything is actually going really awesome all of the sudden haha. I don't have the list hammered out yet, I have a big pile of cards, but tomorrow I'll be able to post a list and results and progress.

[mtgaddict]

Hi,

I'm glad to see that this thread is alive with interesting brainstorming. :wink:

Did someone test this list : http://manatalks.com/mtg-decks/solidarity-mikko-hyv-akrinen-legacy-3671 ? It seems to be more a controlish than a turn-3 build.

[Nuorukain]

Hi,

I'm glad to see that this thread is alive with interesting brainstorming. :wink:

Did someone test this list : http://manatalks.com/mtg-decks/solidarity-mikko-hyv-akrinen-legacy-3671 ? It seems to be more a controlish than a turn-3 build.

Yes, if you can call the last few years of legacy tournaments with that junkpile(+/- few alterations) as testing....

Hilariously that maindeck starts to look more and more like the one I'm taking to GP Ghent... +/- last minute gutshot alterations... I feel sickened by the thought of adding 19'th land into the deck, but then again, I feel sick about playing in a GP and losing easy matchups to manascrews...

BUT the sideboard is the one which really makes me want to cry, cry, and bang my head to the wall...
atm there is no repeal, hibernation or divert BUT second flusterstorm and surgical extraction and a misdirection....
And my brains start to hurt with the options and attempt to optimise the side... Anyone with logically /pseudologically valid alteration ideas to the sideboard, please?...

Oh, and would the option of altering between "controll" and "combo" builds of the deck between the main and side be more worthy, than having actual "sideboard"-cards in there?

What I mean, should I instead of playing stuff like surcigal extractions, hurkyl's recalls, and all that bullshit OR simply have a sideboard of ;

meditate, turnabout, hunting back, zenith, twincast, flusterstorm
4x snap, pact of negation, 2xfreeze 2x wipe away or something as twisted as that?

I mean, trying to increase the odds of "racing" agaist other decks to a fast combo, or to attempt to use side slots to keep controll in differing matchups?
Against Sneak&show for example, should one stuff in extractions, flusterstorms, twincasts& other possible counters to be able to contoll the sneak attacks&etc
from resolving, OR just add 3x snap&turnabout in an attempt to combo off in
response to their combos..?

The classical misalignment of roles situation (-multiplied!), isn't it?

More so, how many counters do you want to run against delver after sideboarding? What does one side in the matchup? (rug/delver/********, what not).
To cut the snapcasters to be more resilient against stiffle or not? (it sometimes actually chump blocks well).
To use bounce to attempt to reduce the bleeding for a turn or two? if one sided 6 bounce spells, for eg. 3x repeal 3x submerge, thus diluding either the combo or the protection, how much more difficult will it be to beat a fast nimble mongoose, delver and a vendilion clique followed by a pierce, fow, daze and a stiffle and a REB?
Would it be easier to beat that with just 4x snap and 3x brainfreeze in and the deck, PRAYING that they tap out for that Clique at some point?

I have a head ache...
Need to play stompy or burn or something...

best wishes, see ya @gent(whoever is coming/going) and good luck. I know I'll need it with the pairings...

-Mikko Hyvärinen

[Silent Requiem]

In the brave new meta, hate bears are a dime a dozen. You either need to be faster than them, prevent them from resolving, or use sweepers.

I'm playing PSI right now (and so wish I was going to Ghent) because it can just be faster. Even with a Snap/Caster engine, Solidarity is turn 3, which is a turn too slow to race the hate.

This being the case, the deck needs to become more controling. The more control elements you add, the fewer combo elements you have. The fewer combo elements you have, the longer it takes you to reach a point where you can go off. It's a slippery slope to just playing Jace Control without the Jace.

Still, Spell Snare would be effective against pretty much every hatebear we don't want to see, and it could be sided out in favour of Flusterstorm against Storm/Blue. That would let us run 12 counters (FoW/Snare/Remand) in the main, which might actually be enough to lock out the hatebears.

I'd still love a better sweeper than Hibernate, though.

[benthetenor]

Played in SCG St. Louis to an unstellar 2-3 finish. Went back to Peek over Disrupt, since Disrupt is great in a few matchups and completely terrible against others, whereas Peek is at worst a 1-mana cantrip. And free information is awesome.

As much as I hate to say it, because it feels like something a bad player says, lost to luck. Round 1 I fizzled twice in three games against RUG, fighting through 3 counterspells in the last game but Meditating into three lands and a Brain Freeze. Third round, mulled a 1-lander all the way down to three card without seeing a second land. Last round I definitely just lost against a guy playing maindeck Force, Spell Pierce, Counterspell (!) and Dispel (!!!). Tried to go off through three counterspells to find he had a fourth. Then he boarded into Counterbalance. But I beat elf combo and MUD, so I guess that's something.

The sideboard was absolutely correct, aside from not really having a good way to beat Maverick. And I tried everything. But 3 Flusterstorm and 1 Pact of Negation fill out the RUG and Blade matchups nicely. Maybe there should have been a Mindbreak Trap in there in light of Dispel guy, but whatever. There's no way that guy's deck beats anything with creatures in it. And the combination of 3 Surgical Extraction and 3 Flusterstorm turns the Reanimator matchup around so that it's actually slightly positive.

I hate telling bad beat stories as much as you probably hate reading them, so sorry about that. I think if I were able to play more than one tournament every two months, I'd be able to beat out the crazy variance that was demonstrated in the games above, to be able to show that this deck is as good as I know it is. As it stands, I'm taking a break from Magic for a while. It's frustrating to not have a good post-sideboard game against Maverick, despite trying everything from Wipe Aways to a black splash for Massacre and/or Virtue's Ruin, and there's no worse feeling than having defeat snatched from the jaws of victory off of a bad Meditate. But whatever, that's Magic.

Keep going with the deck. I think this deck is more fun and more impressive than any other deck in the format, and when played correctly has a shot against anything. If they do something crazy like unban Frantic Search, this would probably be the best deck in the format, period. But until that day, I hope you guys have fun with it! I might be back someday. Who knows.

[Vacrix]

I'd love to see Frantic Search unbanned. Tempo might play it but the slower control decks, probably not. You can't reliably Snapcast it in non-High Tide decks since that would cost 5. Spring Tide would probably play it as well.

Against RUG you leave in your Brain Freezes? I like to board them out against control so that I can have a greater protection density. You always have Cunning Wish to find the win condition. Then again, I also play 4 Cunning Wish.

Maverick matchup definitely sucks, especially since they can board in Choke against you ontop of having Thalia maindeck and additional storm hate in the post-board.

I personally put this deck on the back burner and just keep checking the Instants that come out hoping that this deck gets something cool.

[lavafrogg]

Without some new card or frantic search being unbanned(which would be awesome) Solidarity as it exists is just not really playable. There are faster, more resilient combo decks out there that do everything solidarity wants to do but better, except for the whole instant speed thing.

I can see Solidarity being good again one day when wizards prints some blue instant along the lines of cryptic command. The shell of the deck is really strong with reset/high tide providing a rediculous amount of mana in addition to all of the blue draw power. The brain freeze win condition just requires a lot of hoops to jump through without some new/old tech.

[mtgaddict]

@Nuorukain : I didn't know you're Mikko! ^^
About your SB, I would change this :
-1 Hurkyl's Recall +1 Rebuild
-1 Hunting Pack (I think this card need 4 Cunning Wish MD)
-1 Twincast (seems redundant why Snappy?)
-1 Divert (only one is useless?)
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Repeal/Chain of vapor

@Silent Requiem : You're right! ;-)
At time, my best options for early hate bears are : Spell Snare, Submerge, Chain of vapor or Force Spike? :-/

Is Disrupting Shoal should be a under-FoW?

@benthetenor : I didn't know Massacre! :-o Did you consider Perish over/with Virtue's Ruin?

[mtgaddict]

I don't like the card disadvantage of Snapback. But Snuff Out could do the job, isn't it?

[Silent Requiem]

Without some new card or frantic search being unbanned(which would be awesome) Solidarity as it exists is just not really playable. There are faster, more resilient combo decks out there that do everything solidarity wants to do but better, except for the whole instant speed thing.

I can see Solidarity being good again one day when wizards prints some blue instant along the lines of cryptic command. The shell of the deck is really strong with reset/high tide providing a rediculous amount of mana in addition to all of the blue draw power. The brain freeze win condition just requires a lot of hoops to jump through without some new/old tech.

Solidarity's main problem is that our engine is too big. Whereas Reanimator (for example) needs only two cards in hand to go off (and can thus use the remaining 5-6 cards to protect the combo), we need at least three, and would really like a few more than that.

That's what makes Frantic Search so good. It doesn't do anything that the deck does not already do, but it does it more efficiently, doing the work of two cards in one. Efficiency (and a late game answer to multiple hatebears) is what Solidarity really needs.

[lavafrogg]

I disagree, solidarity needs a big card to play to end the game/almost guarantee a win, like time spiral, ad nauseum, doomsday.... The deck has all of the other components ready to go, clocks are just too fast and disruption is much stronger than when solidarity was a great deck.

[Silent Requiem]

Well, I decided to try seriously putting together a control version of Solidarity that ought to beat Maverick/Hatebears consistently without being too rubbish in other matchups.

First, though, I had to ask, why play control-Solidarity over actual control (such as MUC)? The answer has to be that MUC needs to stabilize, while we don't. We just need to delay long enough to go off. Nothing more is required.

So, I tried the following:



Lands:
13 Island
6 Fetchland

Disruption:
4 FoW
4 Remand
4 Spell Snare/Piracy Charm

Bounce/Removal:
4 Cunning Wish
4 Snap
3 Snapcaster

Dig:
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
3 Meditate

Combo:
3 High Tide
4 Reset


The deck is very rough (and far from optimised), but I played a dozen games against Maverick, and won them all. Very weird.

Okay, let's look at what's different here. First, the land count is high because I want to keep making land drops beyond turn four if I can. This is because I'm running a lot of disruption, so the deck is a little clunky trying to combo on low resources.

Edit: On this note, I've dropped Turnabout because it allows us to completely ignore Gaddock Teag while comboing. I've also got no maindeck win condition to try and minimise the "dead" cards precombo.

That said, the deck does run the Snap/Caster engine, so it is quite capable of going off on turn three with a bit of luck. This is made less likely, however by the lack of Opt/Visions. I have no good way of sculpting my hand on turn one, largely because I'm probably trying to leave mana open for disruption.

And that's a fair amount of disruption! I've got a total of 23 cards in the deck that can potentially deal with a hatebear (if you include surprise blocking with Snapcaster). I'm on the fence over Spell Snare v Piracy Charm - Caverns says Charm and Mom says Snare. I'm leaning towards Snare because it's good in other matchups.

Unlike some other controlling builds, this one doesn't feel too gimmicky when you play it - it's simply filled with decent disruption and a watered down combo engine. I would probably consider splashing green for Hunting Pack, and siding out Spell Snare for Flusterstorm in most blue matchups (or against fast combo).

If anyone has the chance to test this list independently, I'd love to know how it works out for you.

[Vacrix]

I wonder if we could attempt a new build of Solidarity that differs drastically from the original. Now that we have Snapcasters and Remands, we just have access to the cards we need to go off without needing Meditates. If we drop them perhaps we could go +3 cards to help us stall. We'd still have access to Cunning Wish --> Stroke when we are sitting on a hand that creates absurd amounts of mana.

With more maindeck Brainfreezes, perhaps we could mini-Brainfreeze in order to fill up the yard, and then start drawing cards with a Visions of Beyond + Snapcaster engine.

Also, Archive Trap. Doesn't seem like much but if we play it in combination with Visions of Beyond then it looks much better. Every deck I can think of will search its library at least once in the time frame it takes us to go off. GSZ, Stoneforge Mystic, fetchlands are cards we will encounter often so perhaps we should try to metagame a bit more. Too bad we can't pay two alternative costs and flashback it with Snapcaster Mage. :/

[Silent Requiem]

In my games against Maverick with the above deck I found that Meditate was still a key card. It was my most Wished for and Snapcastered card.

In part this is because the added disruption reduces the density of "business" spells, making in more important to cast multiple Meditates. I'd typically have a hand of 12+ cards by the time I actually managed a win, with the better part of those being "dead" cards.

The build I posted above also doesn't produce a huge abundance of extra mana, as half my untap effects only untap a set number of lands. Dropping Turnabout dodges Teag (and Snap can also address Thalia/Cannonist/etc) but also makes mana that little bit harder to come by.

Edit: I'd also consider Wipe Away maindeck in the Spell Snare slot. This would be awesome against Reanimator/Show & Tell, as well as dealing with hatebears & Counterbalance. Obviously weaker against fast combo.

[mtgaddict]

At first, I'm not a regular legacy player.

I tested your list with Force Spike in place of Spell Snare/Piracy Charm (because I have no one of them). Here, Maverik players are cutting GSZ for Vial. So, Force Spike isn't too bad. I often play versus Elves where Spell Snare is useless and Piracy Charm seems to be better. Merfolks should be back and Spell Snare will be awesome. But at time, we are focused to Maverik. :wink:

FoI RIP! :cry: I'm addicted to BF myself and stacking my deck.

I confirm that the most wished card is Meditate in order to Snapcaster it. So, a well placed SE should be a drama. :frown:

The deck doesn't procude a huge quantity of mana. However, the storm count grows quickly and the win condition could be :
- BF + draw(?)/Turnabout (or any spell to prevent lethal damage)
- HP to chump block and FTW

In the pre-combo phase, Snap isn't really famous without Snappy. Moreover, I often look for High Tide. I'm considering to replace one Snap by one PtD.

I'm still not use to pilot Snap/caster engine and I didn't play enough games to give an advise. They were only my first impressions...

[Rampart]

So I have picked up this deck recently as I need a change from what I was playing and this deck caught my interest. I have been reading the last 75 or so pages of this thread and no one seems to talk about thought scour?

Thought Scour seems to have so much synergy with the deck, especially with Snapcaster Mage, Brainstorm, and FOI.

Has anyone tried this out?

Sorry if my question seems noobish

[Liquid_elf]

Hola, i've been playing Solidarity (i'm borrowing most of it from a friend) for a couple months and i have recently settled on the following list:


4 Reset
4 High Tide
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Snap
3 Force of Will
2 Brain Freeze
4 Misty Rainforest
12 Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Remand
2 Peek
2 Visions of Beyond
4 Cunning Wish
2 Meditate
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
2 Turnabout
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 1 Hunting Pack
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 Flusterstorm

I'm playing in a very small meta- there are about 8 regular players every week but getting more players of late. I really like this deck and most of my losses i feel can be chalked up to pilot error. I recently managed to find a trop i can borrow on a regular basis (yay for random boxes of cards in peoples basements) and the addition of hunting pack is awesome. The rest of the board is pretty loose. Surgicals are good catch-alls.

As i said we don't have a big card pool so there isn't really anybody playing Canadian Thresh and there is one maverick player. but from the matches i played against him i felt my losses were more to pilot error than the danger of the deck. alas i haven't played many games against him and not with the remands in. But i think unless we are talking about the sort of maverick that runs 12 sb cards vs combo plus main board thalias. we have a fine game against them. seeing as how we run 3-4 main board snaps. Also the thing to remember about maverick is it takes a very long time to actually kill people so we can take that time to sculpt and then just bounce the relevant hate bear and go off.

@rampant: yeah i'd like to try thought scour but i just don't think it's better than visions or peek (info is really useful). If it said target player draws then maybe (sometimes it would be nice to have a one mana way to make my opponent draw.

[mifme]

Hi guys, i've been reading these threads for a while but never owned any 'reset' so could not really play Solidarity, i have however played Spiral Tide quite a lot in my early legacy career.
I now own 4 'reset' :) so i'm going to try this out at a local 20 man tourny tonight, the list i've wittled down to from reading the posts is as follows :

4 high tide
4 impulse
4 sanpcaster mage
3 snap
4 brainstorm
2 opt
3 meditate
3 cunning wish
4 reset
2 turnabout
1 brainfreeze
1 flash of insight
4 force of will
3 remand

9 island
2 tropical island
2 polluted delta
4 scalding tarn
1 flooded strand

SB:
1 turnabout
1 meditate
1 surgical extraction
2 wipe away
1 echoing truth
1 blue suns zenith
1 brainfreeze
3 disrupt
1 hunting pack
2 flusterstorm
1 snap

So i'm going to try out the disrupts in the board, the meta where i am is quite diverse roughly 1/3 combo 1/3 control 1/3 agro, there will be ANT, TES, Sneak and Show, Mavrick, Painters and maybe 1 counter top deck for sure.

i Was looking a lot at Vision of Beyond but when goldfishing i was finding i had practically won by the time it became an ancestral so i stuck with Opt in the maindeck as its way better early game to set/dig for lands. I am also playing the flash of Insight even though i'm running 4 snapcasters, i think 1 main deck is fine as even with snapcasters its fairly easy to reach a point where you can stack your deck for the win especially when you are using the snapcasters to recast meditates.

I assume the primary win con is to wish for blue suns zenith and then brain freeze and zenith them for an instant win (especially with emrakul triggers on the stack) but i have a question about hunting pack, i can see making an army of 4/4 beats is good if you get to untap and swing for the win but whats the thoughts on hunting pack after youve cast multiple meditates ? i guess its not really what you want to do i mean casting 4 meditates for example off snapcasters is going to mean your opponant has 4 extra turns to deal with them, is it worth going for the hunting pack after multiple meditates ?
what i actually mean is say you have a storm count (say 15) but can't find the brain freeze but you have cunning wish, you could wish for the brainfreeze but say its not enough to deck them but you could make say 15 4/4 beasts but you have used 3 meditates already giving them 4 turns to deal with the beasts, is it worth making 15 beasts or risking it on trying to storm more, missing the chance to hunting pack, or just cast the pack and cross your fingers for 4 turns ?

i'll let you all know how it goes !

Regards

Matt

[Silent Requiem]

Hunting Pack is not intended for high draw, high storm count plays. It's designed to make bad hands with loads of mana but no real draw into winning hands. It's like your backup handgun - it's not the assault rifle you want to bring to the fight, but what you pull out when the assault rifle has jammed.

A common hand might be High Tide, Reset, Turnabout, Cunning Wish, blank cards. You could Wish for Meditate, but you've just spent six mana to draw four cards, and if you draw into Islands/untap/countermagic then you've just given your opponent a free Timewalk and Duress (on High Tide) for no profit.

Alternatively, you can just Tide>Reset>Turnabout>Cunning Wish>Hunting Pack (assuming four lands) for five 4/4 beasts. Timed right (after he has declared attackers) you will wipe his board with your blockers, and win on your next turn.

[Liquid_elf]

Visions is very misleading in gold-fishing. In gold fishing this deck just tends to turn three-four people reliably. But when you have to force a whole bunch of stuff or have your hand destroyed by hymns/discard or if that silly person on the other side of the table is playing blue ( i mean who would do that?) then you have to more complicated things. In those cases Visions -> in response -> brain freeze for storm 6-7 can often draw you into your snapcaster (to finish them off) or just more dig/untap.

The real thing about hunting pack is that ll you need to do is count to ten(mana) opposed to 15-16(storm). It allows to you to go off quickly against decks that are just going to destroy you if you give them time. Also people don't expect it. :P

best of luck, in theory if people have no idea what your playing you'll have good matches vs storm.

[Liquid_elf]

plan vs. burn?

[GoldenCid]

plan vs. burn?

Uff...for me is a very difficult MU...I remeber that in my old meta were 1 or 2 boys that always run burn. My options were:

-Never loose a land drop
-Run 1-2 Hydroblast in the side.
-Shape my hand as fast as possible and go off in response to the "fatal spark" to minimize fizzle...

Good luck!!

GC.

[Liquid_elf]

yeah we are starting to have a proliferation of burn decks in my meta am seriously considering chill.

[GoldenCid]

yeah we are starting to have a proliferation of burn decks in my meta am seriously considering chill.

I strongly not recomend running cards that are not instants in solidarity, but you can make your experience and tell us!

GC.

[Silent Requiem]

Personally, I board in my 4th High Tide against burn, and bring in Flusterstorm over Remand. It's all about going off as fast as possible, while slowing them down as much as you can.

[manjet]

How about adding Quicken to be able to play with Time Spiral as well?

At first thought it might seem like another combo, but Quicken could potentially replace Peek and Opt, and the deck would maybe not suffer too much, while at the same time getting a few more win-options? You could win "normally" with Reset, or on your own turn with Time Spiral, as well as with Quicken + Time Spiral on opponents turn?

What do you think?

[Bahamuth]

How about adding Quicken to be able to play with Time Spiral as well?

At first thought it might seem like another combo, but Quicken could potentially replace Peek and Opt, and the deck would maybe not suffer too much, while at the same time getting a few more win-options? You could win "normally" with Reset, or on your own turn with Time Spiral, as well as with Quicken + Time Spiral on opponents turn?

What do you think?

Tested infitite times already. Spiral is too dead without Quicken, and you cannot find both reliably if you also need to find High Tide/Reset/Protection.

[Liquid_elf]

Hokay So...

Last weekend some guys came up from a nearby town so we had a 20 man tourney.

I went a glorious 2-3... but anyways here is is what i found:

The 2 wins were exceptionally one sided events against affinity (hurkyl's, snapcaster hurkyl's ruins them) and death 'n' taxes (just didn't have anything against combo).

Slightly more interesting(or at least good for discussion) was the 3 i lost:

The last was against UR Delver list in which i lost by being unlucky.. ( meditating into 3 lands) the clock was a bit of a pain. but otherwise i still think we are just a bit faster than they are.

The second was too Maverick which i am ashamed to admit was a loss to bad piloting. Game 1 i just turned 3'ed him
after which he brought in 10-12 pieces of SB tech
Games 2 and 3 were very close and i lost too very slight play errors on my behalf :
the first i didn't quite manage to play around a knight and at a crucial moment he knighted up a bog in response to a snapcaster
the second i responded one action too late leaving me facing down a lethal and pro blue thalia after comboing off through thalia and ethersworn cannonist.

Again i felt that even though Maverick brings in a pile of hatebears vs combo they are perfectly easy to play through because Maverick just doesn't really have the clock to really punish you for the annoyance. Things like Remand buy you the time to get your hand in shape. After which EOT bounce etherswaorn cannonist then go off through thalia which again is easy enough.

The other game i dropped, was to BUG Tempo this one is a really rough match for me discard + pierce + Daze + pressure of delver & goyf. any suggestions on plans vs BUG SB plans? do we want to be more hard control (flusterstorms etc) or do we just want race like a mofo?

[Vacrix]

Just spoiled guys and I think this is worth taking a look at:

Sphinx's Revelation XWUU
Instant
You gain X life and draw X cards.

[TheG]

Hi guys i'm new to this archetype and i want to try something new.
i came from S&T>Emmy/Grisel UB control combo and i'm interested in the "world of choices" of a deck like this.

I have some questions for you

1. i read last 10 pages of topic and i searched tcdeks, but i couldn't came to an unique and shared list. some list use 4 protection (FoW) some 7 (FoW+Remand), other use x1-2 brainfreeze others use x1 Blue sun zenith as kill. Moreover i goldfished a bit, trying to going off on t4 but i have a high-er frizzle % then with Spiral tide, is this normal?
Could you suggest me a good list to start? unfortunately the 1st page Primer/Summary doesn't seem to be up-to-date

2. My filed is infested by UW Miracle control.. some tips to playing against Counterbalance/Top?

3. I've seen a lot of x1 in some list and splashing green for krosan Grip.. i've been guessing about minisplash of black for Mystical Teachings what u think about?

Thx for reading and answering :D

[Spigore]

Just spoiled guys and I think this is worth taking a look at:

Sphinx's Revelation XWUU
Instant
You gain X life and draw X cards.

Hi Vacrix,
It's a nice card indeed, but imho doesn't solve the problem that Solidarity is facing at the moment.
Most of the time when you lose with Solidarity, you lose because at the moment you are going for the combo, your opponent has enough countermagic to hold you back.

Besides that, I wouldn't play this over BSZ. When I Zenith, I'm already going for the combo. Playing Zenith on myself and being able to do it again (after shuffle into the library) is far more efficient than gaining some life on the way.


For reference, here's my list, exactly as last time posted.
Just note, I haven't been seriously playing this deck lately and the SB needs work (to better deal with CounterTop and Tempo Thresh)!

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
12 [P3] Island

// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
4 [FE] High Tide
4 [LG] Reset
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [VI] Impulse
1 [JU] Flash of Insight
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [US] Turnabout
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [TE] Meditate
4 [IN] Opt
2 [GP] Repeal
2 [UL] Snap
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
1 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [VI] Three Wishes
SB: 2 [PLC] Piracy Charm

[SupREME-10]

@Vacrix

Sphinx's Revelation XWUU is not worth splashing White into the deck if you ask me, cool card; but not as good as what would be displaced.

PS, I don't have an issue with going off, or working around control. I have an issue with decks that are simply faster then Turn 4; and if I stall them, then it goes in their favour.

When my meta had more Aggro though, I mowed through them like nuts. My Solidarity is on the shelf for a while but the deck has game and it is great to spring it out every so often.

[Liquid_elf]

@Supreme : have you played much against x/ug thresh decks? I find especially BUG's combination of counter spells plus delvers plus discard a real pain to get through. If your just having issues with aggro decks up your remand count. that seemed to help my aggro match up a bunch.

@the G: Solidarity doesn't have a 'best' version currently. i run a version which is quite heavy on the snap/caster engine (so runs 3 snaps and 3 snapys). i find this a one resilient and also just plain faster engine (goldfishing on land 2-3). Basically you can build solidarity to be faster or build it to be more controlling it's up too you. I haven't played much against counter/top or u/w y thought is it's going to be rough. but cards like fluster storm disrupt and more importantly wipe away and krosan grip are going to be where it's at. The good thing about the match is miricales will usually take a loooooonng time to actually kill you so you can take your tie find the stuff you need.

Spiral tide has a lower fizzle rate when you first pick up the deck mainly because of spiral. But in tournaments especially against blue decks spiral is very dangerous.

hope that helps


oh yeah and the ravnica card would be playable if it said the magical words target anywhere otherwise your paying 4 to draw one and gain a life... it might make a wish board if you had some reason to play white. but otherwise i just don't think it's good enough

[Silent Requiem]

Firemind's Foresight - 5UR
Instant
Search your library for an instant card with converted mana cost 3, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then repeat this process for instant cards with converted mana costs 1 and 2. Then shuffle your library.

I don't think this is worth splashing red for on it's own, but it is an interesting Wish target if we are already in red for some reason. I mean, 7 mana on Stroke would get me 5 cards. Whereas this card would get me Meditate, Reset, and High Tide/Brainstorm. I'd take that over the 5 random cards.

Too bad I splash green rather than red. Hopefully, the next set has some U/G love.

[TheG]

I don't think this is worth splashing red for on it's own, but it is an interesting Wish target if we are already in red for some reason. I mean, 7 mana on Stroke would get me 5 cards. Whereas this card would get me Meditate, Reset, and High Tide/Brainstorm. I'd take that over the 5 random cards.

Too bad I splash green rather than red. Hopefully, the next set has some U/G love.

With 7 mana on stroke/blue zenith you get only 4 cards!
this card is awesome imho, does red have some other intersting card to justify a red splash at all?

[ScatmanX]

With 7 mana on stroke/blue zenith you get only 4 cards!
this card is awesome imho, does red have some other intersting card to justify a red splash at all?
Sudden Shock is one of the best answer to bears you can have.

[SupREME-10]

I have yet to see any cards outside of blue that are better than what they would replace in the deck.

You don't to kill creatures guys, you need time to combo into the win.

Thus I feel it is better to have a spell that can bounce the hate bears off the table as you set up into the turn your going off. With Turnabout you don't have to rely on the combo going off during his upkeep and keeping the deck all instants is the way to go IMHO.

And to answer the earlier question I do play vs Xug decks, disruption is evil.

Cheers

[Liquid_elf]

So i've been joking with friends for awhile about boarding Delvers and Jace's phantasm

But i am currently trying to brew a deck for standard and so have to ask would Nivmagus elemental off the board be feasible?

[lavafrogg]

Firemind's Foresight - 5UR
Instant
Search your library for an instant card with converted mana cost 3, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then repeat this process for instant cards with converted mana costs 1 and 2. Then shuffle your library.

Doesn't this win the game? search for high tide, reset and cunning wish, seems very worth it, with the red splash you get sudden shock or other burn to kill thalias and even the urza's rage/twin cast win condition. I think this is worth sleeving my resets again.

Turn four is a fairly consistent win as far as I can tell, with reset, high tide and foresight in hand you will wind up drawing 10 cards looking for a snapcaster mage, reset or turnabout to keep going, This is after you are two high tides up with whatever else you have in hand.

Math gets pretty stupid on turn three but it is possible with a heavy mana hand.

Oh god, bolt, reset, reiterate is fucking dumb.

[lavafrogg]

List for my last post:

4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
8 island
3 volcanic islands

3 snapcaster mage

4 high tide
4 reset
3 turnabout
3 cunning wish
1 blue sun's zenith
4 brainstorm
4 opt
3 snap
4 force of will
1 Brain freeze
4 remand

3 firemind's foresight

I dropped the meditates for more chances to draw into mana for foresight.

Sideboard would be something like:

Sudden Shock
Red Blast
Blue Blast
Wipe Away
Flusterstorm
Chain of Vapor
Rebuild

[Liquid_elf]

... 7 turnabouts seems good...

firesight is really that good? you need: maybe 4 land: tide, reset, fire mind, and that's only 6 storm.

i see this maybe having a place in a U/R spiral tide running epic experiments as spirals 5-6 . but for instant speed having to hit 7 mana and either waiting a turn or having enough mana left over to reset and keep going.

i'm not convinced that it's that good but please prove me wrong :P

[Spigore]

List for my last post:
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
8 island
3 volcanic islands

3 snapcaster mage

4 high tide
4 reset
3 turnabout
3 cunning wish
1 blue sun's zenith
4 brainstorm
4 opt
3 snap
4 force of will
1 Brain freeze
4 remand

3 firemind's foresight

I dropped the meditates for more chances to draw into mana for foresight.

Sideboard would be something like:

Sudden Shock
Red Blast
Blue Blast
Wipe Away
Flusterstorm
Chain of Vapor
Rebuild

This is really horrible. You don't drop Meditate from the mainboard. Have you seriously tested this list? :eek:
Please, don't rape this deck!

The list seems to focus on Foresight way too much. Foresight is only castable when you have already spent a Tide and Reset/Turnabout to do so. This doesn't give you card advantage the way Meditate gives you.
Also, where's Impulse?

I strongly advocate to NOT splash any color. If you feel the need to do so, go for G and Fog your ass off while slapping your opponent with Hunting Pack!

[GoldenCid]

I strongly advocate to NOT splash any color. If you feel the need to do so, go for G and Fog your ass off while slapping your opponent with Hunting Pack!

You can also Tangle you opo!


Whichi do you think is the correct number for snapy? 3 or 4??


GC.

[Liquid_elf]

i'm running 3 snapys and it seems to work.

often seeing 2 snapcasters is awkward but i'm only running 3 snaps also. So if you wanted to runa more balls to the wall fast version i could see running less protection and the extra snap and snapcaster just to give you a better chance for a two land win

[GoldenCid]

i'm running 3 snapys and it seems to work.

often seeing 2 snapcasters is awkward but i'm only running 3 snaps also. So if you wanted to runa more balls to the wall fast version i could see running less protection and the extra snap and snapcaster just to give you a better chance for a two land win

Yeah i think that 3 is the number. However i do not consider solidarity as an all in combo. Personally i dont mind if i go off with 4 inslad, undeed it reduces you fizzle. I took the deck today after months without playing it a got a mediocre result in a heavy anticombo meta.
I ran mono U version and i'm happy with my MD but in the side i felt unconfortable with just 3 sideable cards...most of time i felt like i wanted to side in something more. Here it is:


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
13 [4E] Island (1)
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
3 [TE] Meditate
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
2 [US] Turnabout
3 [RAV] Remand
4 [LG] Reset
4 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AL] Force of Will (hated it almost all day)
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [FE] High Tide (2)
3 [IN] Opt
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [VI] Impulse

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [FE] High Tide (2)
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [8E] Hibernation
SB: 1 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [OD] Words of Wisdom
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap / Curfew


Sometime i wish i had more surgicals or a couple of Hydroblast to race burn or goblins...
For now i'll not considering splashing just for now.

any comment??

GC

[lavafrogg]

This is really horrible. You don't drop Meditate from the mainboard. Have you seriously tested this list? :eek:
Please, don't rape this deck!

The list seems to focus on Foresight way too much. Foresight is only castable when you have already spent a Tide and Reset/Turnabout to do so. This doesn't give you card advantage the way Meditate gives you.
Also, where's Impulse?

I strongly advocate to NOT splash any color. If you feel the need to do so, go for G and Fog your ass off while slapping your opponent with Hunting Pack!

Hey sorry buddy, I was experimenting a list with a focus on foresight... if you can get to four lands, reset+high tide+foresight, or hit foresight in mid combo...you win. I believe the math was draw 10ish cards to hit a reset/turnabout/snapcaster to keep going with a full hand and a shit ton of mana. I love Solidarity and want it to be viable...which is why I was playing with new cards.

[Liquid_elf]

I'm running a green splash and my board is:

Wish targets:

hunting pack
meditate
stroke of genius
brain freeze
ravenous trap

other stuff :

2 surgicals [really good not going anywhere]
hurkyls recall (prolly not going anywhere cause it just ruins the decks it ruins)

then pretty much everything elses up in the air but is:

2 submerge
2 wipe away
1 echoing truth
2 fluster storm

It really depends on the hate your opponents are bringing in what i'd board.
Hydroblast is useful against red decks but against goblins the mana denial and chalices of the baord are probably what are going to get you.

i find the green splash (i.e. hunting pack) is much more resilient cause often game two people some times bring in shuffle effects (blightsteel etc.) and also it's much easier just to count to ten mana through hate.

Surgicals are awesome. you have to be smart and actually hit things you care about but game two small storming your opponent for like even 3 storm (9 cards) and being able to surgical relevant cards away is awesome. (also if you win the counter war game one against show and tell and then wish for surgical....)

otherwise wipe away and echoing truth are both excellent fix anything answers.

submerge is good against the decks it's good against i think probably better than hibernation unless your meta has a lot of elves.

And as we all now fluster storm is good against blue...

stuff i've been considering:

venser, shaper savant... [i hate me some omni telll... i hate me it soooo good. But also he seems like not a bad card against thalia decks]

curfew (again vs show and tell or re-animator)

hydroblast (it really depends on how much red i see in the room)

the 4th snap ( some times i really want another snap i my deck)

riptide ( i have a foreign one and i have a rough game vs merfolk)



yeah basically what sort of hate are your opponents running?

[GoldenCid]

There are some cards that feel i run them in the side just for it psychological sensation of safety. Those are dismember, revemous trap, curfew, words of wisdom. From that list i never used dismember and curfew. This last one is a marginal card because if somebody drops a Emrakul y the fisrt 2 turns you are out the same counts for reanimator. I remember that dismember came in for killing the batteskull germ but i think that we have a solution in form of echoing truth or maybe snap. Ravenous trap could be useful against dredge and lands and words f wisdom is an easy casting auto win.
Dont know i think those are the weak point of my side.

On Flusterstorm / Trap

Both are great cards because you can use them in combo / control match up. TRap fits better against t1 combos and flusterstorm is nice against burn too. Maybe an split is the right think. Never saw list running both but well everything is possible.

[Liquid_elf]

There are some cards that feel i run them in the side just for it psychological sensation of safety. Those are dismember, revemous trap, curfew, words of wisdom. From that list i never used dismember and curfew. This last one is a marginal card because if somebody drops a Emrakul y the fisrt 2 turns you are out the same counts for reanimator. I remember that dismember came in for killing the batteskull germ but i think that we have a solution in form of echoing truth or maybe snap. Ravenous trap could be useful against dredge and lands and words f wisdom is an easy casting auto win.
Dont know i think those are the weak point of my side.

On Flusterstorm / Trap

Both are great cards because you can use them in combo / control match up. TRap fits better against t1 combos and flusterstorm is nice against burn too. Maybe an split is the right think. Never saw list running both but well everything is possible.

I had a few blue decks in my meta so fluster storm is useful also i like it just because at worst it can be a turn two spell pierce for something annoying. Ravenous trap can be baaaack breaking against say quad-lazer dredge decks and i've used it a bunch vs elf decks running spaghetti monsters I see your point about curfew.

I find that snap and sometimes Snap + echoing truth gives me a bunch of leeway against creature decks. seeing all you are trying to do is stall them till you can combo off. But also havng access to hunting pack helps this a bunch as well.

@ Cid you said your meta was full of hate ? what sort of hate are they running?

[GoldenCid]

@ Cid you said your meta was full of hate ? what sort of hate are they running?

wELL, first of all almost everyone know how to face a combo deck. Concerning the cards i can list:

Blue trap
Surgical / extirpate
Grave hate. Yes snapy is so psychological.
REB

Creature hate (in a second place) based on maverick.

-----------------

MD commonly used:

Counter magic
Discard stuff

I need to define the side.

Cheers,

GC.

[Liquid_elf]

wELL, first of all almost everyone know how to face a combo deck. Concerning the cards i can list:

Blue trap
Surgical / extirpate
Grave hate. Yes snapy is so psychological.
REB

Creature hate (in a second place) based on maverick.

-----------------

MD commonly used:

Counter magic
Discard stuff


Hurr yeah that is a problem i face a lot we have a really small meta ( kike 10 or so regulars) half of which i test against so not only is my deck not a surprise but many of them know the right place to counter etc.

If you are having issues with the discard stuff have you thought about Disrupt?

I haven't played against bule trap that much so no real help. But maybe also just consider the green splash i find hunting pack waaaaay easier to go off through counter hate with.

Also small storm, big storm, helps...

err... um oh i see you don't run peek again information is good especial vs counterspells.

And if you are having to small storm , big storm people visions of beyond can be awesome. If you just get enough storm to turn your visions into a recall and then next turn do it again.

Off the board... yeah maybe disrupts and flusterstorms and just become a big control deck.

hope that helps even a bit

generally against people who know how to plav vs your deck is you just have to be luckier/better with your deck than they are with theirs...

[GoldenCid]

Off course it helps...disrupt helps a lot indeed. Because even if the tap for paying :1: you still draw a card. It seems the best replacement for flusterstorm. And yeah i think i'll try the green splash. How should it look like??
I have a 19 cards side for shaping with cards which were useful anytime:

SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [FE] High Tide (2)
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [8E] Hibernation
SB: 1 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [OD] Words of Wisdom
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [IN] Tangle

GC

[Liquid_elf]

Off course it helps...disrupt helps a lot indeed. Because even if the tap for paying :1: you still draw a card. It seems the best replacement for flusterstorm. And yeah i think i'll try the green splash. How should it look like??
I have a 19 cards side for shaping with cards which were useful anytime:

SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [FE] High Tide (2)
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [8E] Hibernation
SB: 1 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [OD] Words of Wisdom
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [IN] Tangle

GC

if you are putting the green splash in then you really should run hunting packbut that just slots into your wish board stuff and the rest.. never played tangle but could see it ruining the games it ruins.

Otherwise i like storms over traps but i'm sure that's just a personal thing. Same with hibernation i just think submerge is better (cause you can tuck a thalia or a ethersworn).
the other thing i'd say is i really like running a bunch of 2 ofs in the board if i'm siding them in...

yeah but basically as i see the green splash should probably just add hunting pack to your wish targets and then you have more choices when picking which decks you want to hate against.

on which point has anyone tried autumn's veil

[Vacrix]

If you want to splash green....

Tangle seems good against something like Goblins, but with Snapcasters and Snaps maindeck, I've been able to go off pretty consistently, even against Goblins.


Also, I've noticed that Tempo players will use their soft countermagic early against your cantrips because they become less useful when High Tide gets online. This means that when you go off, you only encounter like 2 countermagic tops. I think Mindbreak Trap is meh compared to Flusterstorm or Pact of Negation. Flusterstorm does everything that it does for the cost of U but only if High Tide doesn't resolve. The problem with Flusterstorm as protection is that if they know you play it and let High Tide resolve, then its quite possible that they can pay for the Flusterstorm. For this reason, I think taking another look at Autumn's Veil is a good idea. It protects the entire spell chain before you go off, or after your opponent has already tried to counter a bunch of spells.. so it works like Chant or like Trap, whichever is more conveinent. For instance, you could Autumns Veil, draw out a countermagic, and then Remand Autumn's Veil. Or Veil could get countered, Snapcast Veil to draw out another countermagic, go off next turn with a target for Snap. There are a lot of tricks to be had with Autumn's Veil that none of the other protection spells offer so its definitely worth another look, especially when there's always Snapcaster--> for when you're playing against a slow control deck and can hit many land drops.


Lately Pact of Negation has been the best protection spell for me. You can Snapcast it for cheap, quite often its good to board these in for Force of Will when you encounter a deck like Goblins that can board in REB's randomly to completely fuck you up. Also, if your opponent fucks up on a stack like this, its a really cheap Remand target:

Me: High Tide
Him: Force of Will
Me: Pact of Negation
Him: Force of Will (on Pact)
Me: Remand Pact, Pact of Negation of 1st Force of Will.

Other line of play is to Remand the High Tide but it costs + U. As I said before, this same line of play works with Snapcaster.



In other news...

I've been playing a 4 Wish, 3 Tide build, and its still awesome. Just casually though, I've been playing PSI pretty consistently at locals. Having 7 tides maindeck is just insane. You go off turn 4 very consistently so beating aggro actually hasn't been much of an issue. I only have 2 Snapcasters and 2 Snaps maindeck currently but I feel like anymore might dilute consistency. Multiple Snapcasters piss me off. Snapcaster on Reset is insanity.


Also, I've been playing Visions of Beyond as a 2/2 split with Opt with occasional lines of play with it but its rarely been relevant that I've wanted Opt. Honestly.. I'm thinking about going with 4 Peek for a little while. The extra information seems really good for abusing the stack and perhaps the card got overlooked. I don't have a problem hitting my land drops and going off turn 4 with 20 lands and a 4 Wish/3 Tide build. There are so many situations where seeing if the coast is clear means not having to guess on the proper amount of protection, dilute your hand with protection and then have trouble going off, or play right into a hand with tons of countermagic instead of biding your time, filling up your graveyard and baiting an empty board position with Meditates, Snapcasting Veils, etc.

[a boss]

I am more of a TES player myself, but I wanted to familurize myself with this deck. The post of storm boards had been inactive for 6 years and it redirected to a post that had been inactive for 3 years that redirected me here. Here is just a sample list ready for your immediate criticism and feedback.

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Cunning Wish
3 Impulse
3 Force of Will
3 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
3 Brainstorm
15 Snow-Covered Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Visions of Beyond
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Snap
1 Commandeer
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Time Spiral
1 Quicken
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Mystical Teachings
SB: 1 Twincast
SB: 1 Gifts Ungiven
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Repeal
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Rebuild


The quicken time sprial nonsence is there because I am too lazy to order another turnabout off line. It actually works well, given time sprial is never in your hand. Then you want quicken in the board for cunning wish but i am too lazy to buy that either. The commandeer is there until I can get another fow. Is that land count too high?

Thanks

[Psychovoid]

The quicken time sprial nonsence is there because I am too lazy to order another turnabout off line. It actually works well, given time sprial is never in your hand. Then you want quicken in the board for cunning wish but i am too lazy to buy that either. The commandeer is there until I can get another fow. Is that land count too high?

21 lands seems high by all standards. The default count is 18, and some people
run 19.

I see you're running Brain Freeze and Visions of Beyond main. I haven't tested
Visions of Beyond, but while I played the Snapcaster-Snap version of
Solidarity, I would kill with Blue Sun's Zenith (just keep an Echoing Truth in
the sideboard it you think the maindeck Snaps won't be enough). And that's
without running Turnabout.

I would run something like this:

12 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Snap

3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Intuition

4 Force of Will
4 Flusterstorm

4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
2 Peek
4 Impulse

Sideboard

1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Snap
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze

1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Pact of Negation

1 Rebuild
3 Repeal (metagame choice)

[Liquid_elf]

Re: Visions of beyond : it's basically terrible in goldfishing. But in testing it's very useful in super grindy games. Where you just freeze them for 5 or 6 storm with a visions on the stack which lets you draw 3 more cards and either keep going or just be able to go again the next turn

Re: the above deck: man that looks pretty sweet . Also i'm only running 17 lands i should... probably fix that..

[GoldenCid]

I'm running 19 lands...it was better in my testing than 18 and 20.

And why 4 Flusterstorm? dont you think its pretty much¿?

[a boss]

I liked visions because it seemed like a way better peek. You could mini freeze yourself and then recall with awesome snapcaster mages (ie all the spells in the yard). I actually facebooked David Gearheart who informed me 4 fow was a must and that this deck is really only good in grindy metas and uw miracles bs. He said "Well, first things first, the reason why you haven't seen anything about the deck recently is because it's dead. A turn four combo deck just isn't good enough in a format with a two mana four/five and the most efficient countermagic in the same deck. Rug delver killed solidarity. Then, the rest of the format kind of pissed on its grave with sneak and show and dredge. I'd really recommend against solidarity right now. Perhaps if the format shifts again, then maybe."

[Liquid_elf]

I liked visions because it seemed like a way better peek. You could mini freeze yourself and then recall with awesome snapcaster mages (ie all the spells in the yard). I actually facebooked David Gearheart who informed me 4 fow was a must and that this deck is really only good in grindy metas and uw miracles bs. He said "Well, first things first, the reason why you haven't seen anything about the deck recently is because it's dead. A turn four combo deck just isn't good enough in a format with a two mana four/five and the most efficient countermagic in the same deck. Rug delver killed solidarity. Then, the rest of the format kind of pissed on its grave with sneak and show and dredge. I'd really recommend against solidarity right now. Perhaps if the format shifts again, then maybe."

yeah if you have a xug saturated meta then this is a rough deck to play. But otherwise it's a perfectly good deck especially with the snap/caster engine.Also if you can get a hunting pack off then the rug deck is just dead. unless they have slammed many goyfs , xug just can't deal with 4/4s. also i'd be interested to see what xug would do if the board plan was to board into something like nivmagus elemental or jace's phantasm.

As for visions vs peek: i actually dropped opts in favour of peeks and visions. and really if i was only going to run one it would be peek. information is useful. If you used to play other storm decks you should know how useful the info you get from git probe.

basically i think you can rebuild this deck to beat whichever decks you want to beat. So yea xug decks are rough but not unbeatable.

[Splodey]

Hello MTGtheSource Forums,
I've been going through what I can of the more recent posts about Solidarity and I am wondering if anyone has a 'core' set of cards that should be in the vast majority of Mono Blue lists?

I'm keen to begin learning the deck for Legacy and any help would be very much appreciated! =D

Thanks.

[SirTylerGalt]

I don't know what could be considered the "core" of the deck, since there are many variations (fast versions with snapcaster / snap, slower versions with Remand)... But I really liked benthetenor's list when I was testing Solidarity:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12086-Deck-Solidarity&p=636333&viewfull=1#post636333

Also, I thought he made a lot of interesting points, when argumenting about the deck / his build. Might be worth looking at his posting history.

[Splodey]

Cheers, I'll also go a bit deeper back through this Thread and see what I like =D

[SupREME-10]

Benthetenor's list is a solid start but I would not run 4x snap or snapcaster while I would run 4x cunning wish. I like running flash of insight as a singleton in my deck. There are other changes I would make to ensure more search engine but as you said his deck is a great place to start.

[GoldenCid]

i'm not pretty sure on running a "fast" version of the deck. I'm not sure if we need that and if it has a high fizzle rate.

On visions, has anybody tested it hardly? It's very interesting an ancestral recall in the deck but how often? Opt is a great 1 cmc hand shaper.

[Liquid_elf]

i'm not pretty sure on running a "fast" version of the deck. I'm not sure if we need that and if it has a high fizzle rate.

On visions, has anybody tested it hardly? It's very interesting an ancestral recall in the deck but how often? Opt is a great 1 cmc hand shaper.

as i seem to keep saying i run visions and it's awesome if you are in a grind matches. and you need to work to set up the recall but that being said with snapcasters etc having recalls in your deck becomes good.

yeah the racing version of this deck is no much faster than the ones running more permission.

[GoldenCid]

What do you specifically mean with grind matches?

[a boss]

I played this list wednesday.
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Cunning Wish
3 Impulse
4 Force of Will
3 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
7 Snow-Covered Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Visions of Beyond
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Snap
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Time Spiral
1 Quicken
7 Island
1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Mystical Teachings
SB: 1 Twincast
SB: 1 Gifts Ungiven
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Repeal
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

Played reanimator round one. I have never played a deck with force of will because force of will is for cheaters, but it was cool dream crushing the exhume and then letting him scramble to find another reainmate spell for 3 turns before going off in responce to an exhume through fow of iona. Game 2 he careful studied two jin gitaxius to the yard and I surgical extracted them. I saw stifle and turn 3 played snapcaster mage, which he stiled the enter the battlefield. He entombed Iona and I won in responce to the animate dead.
Round 2 I played burn he won game one, I could not find a high tide before turn 4. Game 2 I won (he was slower), game 3 I won in responce to a fireblast on turn 4.
ROund 3 I played monowhite thalia.deck. I echoing truthed his thalia (from cunning wish) and he decided to play a flickerwhip to put me on one turn leaving me an open turn of 6 islands. I won in responce to thlia. Game 2 I could not find high tide and he played ethersworn cannonist. Game 3 he had turn 2 cannonist, turn 3 thalia. He refused to attack with cannonist fearing it would die to snapcaster (like it did in game 2). I could not find a single draw spell to put it away. I lost with triple high tide fow and 12 islands in play.


Deck seems sweet, I think the candleabra version might be a little better. I am going to try that version this wednesday as soon as my candlesticks get here.
2-1

[Liquid_elf]

What do you specifically mean with grind matches?

So i find you either run into one of two sort of matches with SI

the ones in which you are just racing your opponents clock : goblins pre board, elves, affinity, etc. And the ones where your grinding through either discard or counter magic or other just mainboard hate.

In these 2nd sort i find myself often trying to kill my opponent over 2 or three turns and in these cases visions is awesome. Also it has occasionally saved my arse when i went into trying for the win half cocked...

[GoldenCid]

So i find you either run into one of two sort of matches with SI

the ones in which you are just racing your opponents clock : goblins pre board, elves, affinity, etc. And the ones where your grinding through either discard or counter magic or other just mainboard hate.

In these 2nd sort i find myself often trying to kill my opponent over 2 or three turns and in these cases visions is awesome. Also it has occasionally saved my arse when i went into trying for the win half cocked...

I think i get your point. Maybe it would be useful for me if you tell the core that goes together visions. The card could be insane but at the same time is a blind cantrip as well as peek. I'd run a split with opt. Opt is a great card because you can take out 2 cards from the at the same time that you have the posibility of seeing what you draw.
It's not necesary to say that an ancestral recall in the mid/late combo is pretty sweet. I dont know maybe i'll try a 2 opt 1 visions configuration and see what happen...more over BoV could be a good side card.

Whay do you think?

@boss: please give us an explanation of your card choice some look a little bad...

[Liquid_elf]

I think i get your point. Maybe it would be useful for me if you tell the core that goes together visions. The card could be insane but at the same time is a blind cantrip as well as peek. I'd run a split with opt. Opt is a great card because you can take out 2 cards from the at the same time that you have the posibility of seeing what you draw.
It's not necesary to say that an ancestral recall in the mid/late combo is pretty sweet. I dont know maybe i'll try a 2 opt 1 visions configuration and see what happen...more over BoV could be a good side card.

Whay do you think?

@boss: please give us an explanation of your card choice some look a little bad...

Quickly boss gave a explanantion for his list when he posted it the first time... from memory it was simply card availability

BoV?

yeah i think i have ended up at 2 visions one peek... for no reason i can tell except when i was cutting cards for other cards opts got cut before visions. and i love me some peek.

Often i find that i use my brainstorms and impulses as my main pieces of dig these days occasional i'll cantrip a visions if i need to find a land quickly. But generally i save visions and peek for a turn where i can get the most out of them.

[GoldenCid]

@Liquid elf: Could you share your decklist? Just for inspiration. If you think that some comment worth please make it!

GC.

[Liquid_elf]

alas i just changed lappies and all my deck lists are on my old lappy so i had to do this by hand:

4 High tide
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
3 Snap

2 brainfreeze
3 cunning wish

3 snapcaster mage

4 brainstorm
4 impulse
3 meditate
2 visions of beyond
1 peek
1 intuition

4 Force of will
3 Remand

1 tropical island
11 island
5 fetchs (4 misty / 1 strand)


Sb:

brainfreeze
hunting pack
meditate
Stroke of genius
2 surgical extraction
rav trap
2 flusterstorm
snap
2 wipeaway
venser shaper savant
riptide
hurkyl's recall


the board is ruul rull rough

and i've realized that 17 lands is porbably pushing my luck but there it is in all it's glory

[GoldenCid]

Thanks!! You are running five impulse, I think you are missing something there.
And yes 17 lands is a bit poor. Im running 19!
Have you used snap as protection spell or always for combo pourpose?

[Liquid_elf]

Thanks!! You are running five impulse, I think you are missing something there.
And yes 17 lands is a bit poor. Im running 19!
Have you used snap as protection spell or always for combo pourpose?

opps impulse should be intuition... changed

yeah i use snap like that all the time

[Liquid_elf]

so because i'm slack and feel like putting off rebuilding for evor.... i have simply gone too 61 cards for the extra island...

[a boss]

@quickly its card availibilty

Here is the list I hope to make shortly. Intuition is insane. $40?!

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Cunning Wish
3 Impulse
4 Force of Will
3 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Snow-Covered Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Visions of Beyond
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Snap
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
9 Island
2 Flusterstorm
1 Intuition
1 Flooded Strand
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Mystical Teachings
SB: 1 Twincast
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Repeal
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Gifts Ungiven

[Liquid_elf]

have you tested this list? i don't mean that in a dismissive way i'm just intrested in how some of the cards play mainly teachings and gifts..

[a boss]

I have only used teachings like twice in the 20 games I have tested, and that was to avoid counterbalance. Gifts on the other hand is silly and I use rather frequently. You can use it to get intition snapcaster mage snap high tide or the like. It allows you to out maneuver counterbalance or just set up the combo. You can use it like a meditate that does not wiff. The logic on teachings is that occasionally I just really want high tide. It should probably be an intuition. I cut an echoing truth and twincast from the board today and added cyclonic rift (or enchantress/ slow prision decks and some small hope of bouncing a field of hate bears). I cut twincast and added mindbreak trap. I went down to 18 lands and added another impulse after I have multiple games where I was bricking on mediatates culminating in a blue suns zenith for 7 that hit 5 lands and 2 force of wills

[Liquid_elf]

Ok so today i played in a 16 man legacy tournament and piloted this:

4 High tide
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
3 Snap

2 brainfreeze
3 cunning wish

3 snapcaster mage

4 brainstorm
4 impulse
3 meditate
2 visions of beyond
1 Flash of Insight

4 Force of will
3 Remand

1 tropical island
12 island
5 fetchs (4 misty / 1 tarn)


Sb:

brainfreeze
hunting pack
meditate
Stroke of genius
2 surgical extraction
rav trap
2 flusterstorm
snap
wipeaway
venser shaper savant
autumn's veil
hurkyl's recall
echoing truth

Mathc ups were:

round one : Vs. U/W miricales/ counter top : WIN

Game 1: mulled badly couldn't win through jace plus counter top
Game 2 : won the counter fight over balance then a turn or so later with counter back up
game 3: we were in turns 3 or so turns into the game . i could win in 5 turns he couldn't.. Actually i only won this cause he tried ot counter some spells in my combo turn..


Notes: autumn's veil did what it was supposed to do in this match acts like a silemnce they ahve to throw a counter spell at it. But ingeneral i won this because i play nothing but solidarity he wasn't as experienced with his deck as i was. Also RIP is annoying not back breaking.

Round two: Vs. ANT: WIN

Game:1 . Mull to 6 then get discarded out of relevant spells and get stormed out.
Games 2&3: can't remeber much about these lots of fights over stuff and then i would go off.

Notes: nothing much to say here FOI is good via discard... fluster storm is good... if all fails brain freezing your opponent if you need ot take a long shot cause they run lots of one or two offs and it makes their math harder.

Round 3 : Vs. Dredge: DRAW
game: 1: we both mull agressivly and spend a lot of turns playing draw go me stuck on 2 lands ... then i draw the 3rd land while facing down lethal... go for it ... and meditate into 3 land spell , reset meditate into 3 lands spell, meditate into 2 lands spell.... yeah did not win that one...
game 2: jam some counters into his things and then combo off for the win..
Game 3 ... turns called niether of us can win...

notes: um.. he has been playing his deck for along time and is a smart player and so was playing round hate alot of the time he wasn't playing the more balls deep quadlazer list but a more grindy version. but still yeah not sure how the 3rd game would have gone.

Round 4: Gobos: LOSE

Game 1: mull hard... Goblins goblin all over my face..
Game: 2 spend my time forcing the game to go long combo off and turnabout his dudes which is lucky cause i had mis counted and he had lethal on board..
game :3 .. weird game ended up going off through chalice for one to try and get a bunch of beast to stop swing for lethal but i use the VOB in my hand to up storm count and he has the mindbreak trap and i have nothing to pitch to my FOW.

notes: this is a guy from my play group so is a very tough opponent his board is packed full of hate and knows how to play agaisnt storm. Basically as always in the right hand goblins is a terrifying deck.

in general:

For today i put in autumn's veil and FOI intot the deck and was happy how they both performed.

[GoldenCid]

To be honest gift ungiven sounds sweet but its a 4 cmc card which could be very expensive while you are going of...intuition if necesary, as you said above, looks better.

@Liquied_Elf: maybe you'd like to use tangle or fog for aggro match up since you've decided to go for green splash. Were you affraid of wasteland in the gobbos match up?

GC.

[Liquid_elf]

To be honest gift ungiven sounds sweet but its a 4 cmc card which could be very expensive while you are going of...intuition if necesary, as you said above, looks better.

@Liquied_Elf: maybe you'd like to use tangle or fog for aggro match up since you've decided to go for green splash. Were you affraid of wasteland in the gobbos match up?

GC.

just haven't found space for tangle yet. should test it at some point would be good vs fish as well

and yeah that's basically my thoughts on Gifts:P

[GoldenCid]

just haven't found space for tangle yet. should test it at some point would be good vs fish as well

and yeah that's basically my thoughts on Gifts:P

So...why did you think green splash was necesary¿???

[Liquid_elf]

hunting pack... omg.... hunting pack... :P

Basically i have won a bunch of games wouldn't have otherwise because of the alt-win condition hunting pack provides. Also the reason my board doens't run more green stuff id basically i'm lazy and haven't had a serious rebuild of the deck for awhile.

but apart from tangle/hunting pack/veil can't think of anything else i'd board

[ScatmanX]

but apart from tangle/hunting pack/veil can't think of anything else i'd board
Krosan Grip?

[Mackan]

I've been playing some Spiral Tide and decided to get some Resets aswell. I really love this kind of deck (cantrips and counters, nomnom).

Looking at a few lists I was wondering about Snap. I don't like this card. I understand it's "good" generating mana targeting our snapcasters, even for value! but isn't that just begging for their dead plows/bolts to be live?
Or is it mostly for bouncing opponent creatures? What creatures do we actually care about in peoples maindecks, some thalias and a few teeg? Other then that is tempo where this deck want/need to be? Other than Snap Im looking at Repeal/Remand and wonder if interacting with permanents is something that needs to be done outside the wish-board? I have never played Solidarity but I guess it's pretty much as fast as Spiral Tide. I usually play that as a controldeck against 90% of the metagame... I just sit back, counter some stuff and win when they eventually start drawing worse than me (it will happen). Pure speed is only the main concern against stuff like burn and goblins (which basicly don't interact anyway).

I just made a list up, feel free to tell me what an ignorant snap-hater I am:)

CREATURES (4)
4 Snapcaster Mage
INSTANTS (36)
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Flusterstorm
4 Impulse
4 Reset
4 Turnabout
4 Cunning Wish
4 Meditate
4 Force of Will
LANDS (20)
14 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Im upping the landcount a bit so that my brainstorm/impulse "never" have to be used to find lands. Also, no brain freeze main to get better keeps.
A final note, Meditate and Turnabout should probably be in the sideboard as wish-targets. And yeah, the sideboard is not done:) Just wanted to throw it out there...

thanks for any response!

[GoldenCid]

I consider snap a "dual" card. It's there not only for our snapies but to soft spot the aggro plan at the same time that you get two island for remand or impulse.
On the land count i think that 20 is a little high, consider that you can't play a land during you go off!


GC.

[Silent Requiem]

hunting pack... omg.... hunting pack... :P

Basically i have won a bunch of games wouldn't have otherwise because of the alt-win condition hunting pack provides. Also the reason my board doens't run more green stuff id basically i'm lazy and haven't had a serious rebuild of the deck for awhile.

but apart from tangle/hunting pack/veil can't think of anything else i'd board

This.

Hunting Pack has done more for my win percentages than any other card in the sideboard. It's not even close to my go-to win condition, but being able to win roughly 10% of your games from out of nowhere (often on turn 3) means a huge improvement in your average matchups.

[Liquid_elf]

Krosan Grip?

See i just don't see the point in running k-grip over wipeaway. Wiipe away does the same thing (get something out of the way with split second) and deals with more things than k-grip.

@Mackan: As GC says snap is in there cause it's super versatile in this deck . Against decks with no interaction or who tapped out it enables insane things like going off with 2 lands on their turn 3.. But more generally i find it's good for slowing down your opponents deck if they are an aggro style deck. Especially with the odd Cavern running round it's nice to have a way to get problem creatures out of the picture.

Same generally with remand; One of the downsides of this deck over spiral is that we don't have the chance to just top deck the spiral and get to see 7 new cards. keeping your grip full is quite important and how we often win. So cards like remand and repeal which postpone/deal with problems and replace them selves are invaluable. Also remand is again a versatile spell you use it mostly to time walk your opponent while cantripping. But also brain freeze plus remand is another way to turn storm 6-7 int lethal storm. also with snap caster i have played the same brainfreeze 3 times in the same turn...

[Bahamuth]

See i just don't see the point in running k-grip over wipeaway. Wiipe away does the same thing (get something out of the way with split second) and deals with more things than k-grip.


This is not true. The fact that Grip deals with Counterbalance permanently is a huge deal. Your deck is very dependent on cantrips, and with an active Counterbalance you cannot resolve those reliably.