[Deck] Solidarity

[HansonWK]

This is the list I'm working with at the minute:
4 Snapcaster Mage
11 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
3 Opt
1 Peek
4 Reset
2 Snap
2 Turnabout
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ghostly Flicker
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Remand
SB: 1 Repeal
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Wipe Away
My current sideboarding tecnique is to basically not sideboard and rely on my wish's to get what I need. If flusterstorms aren't needed I'll take them out for something that's useful, but not for something I need and only have 1 one. This is also why I run 3 wish's. Against Emrakul's I'll put in a single Surgical and leave the other in the wishboard. Against Punishing Jund, if they are a good player, I'll take out some Snapcasters because Deathrite + removal makes Snapcaster a bad choice. I'll normally take out 2, because they can still be useful, especially if they tap out for any reason. Against people who don't seem to know my deck I will normally leave them in. I know relying on opponents misplaying is never a good idea, but if the player looks clueless in game one as to what the deck does I'll leave them in.
There isn't anyone in my local area who plays this deck (only normal High Tide) and I've not seen anyone streaming on Twitch or anything so I'm not really sure if this is the normal sideboarding technique for this deck.
Any advise from experience players would be very much appreciated, as well as any changes you'd recommend to the deck itself.

Considering moving a Meditate to the board, putting and extra USZ main, and taking something out the board, possibly the ghostly flicker. 4 Snapcasters has also seems a bit high recently with lots of Deathrite Shaman's making him worse and a removal in response to Snap being a blowout, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to cut him yet.

Also, are there any videos of people playing the deck online anywhere?

[Oldboy]

Hey Guys,
Would like to get a bit of discussion in here. ;)

First, what do you think about Teferi's Response as 2-of in the sideboard?
The card is of course very situational, but if our opponent knows what we play, his gameplan will usually be destructing our hand, killing us fast and/or destroying or suspending our lands.
So, if the meta calls for it or on big tournaments I think it could be a huge card.
Countering Stifle on our fetchland, using it in response to Rishadan Port, countering Sinkhole or even Vindicate.
Is that worth 1-2 slots or are the places usually to expensive for such a card?

Second, is it time to think about a 3/1 split FoW/Misdirection?
Misdirection can also be a counter in a counterwar without losing life, what could be necessary.
Can misdirect discard for fair trades, can misdirect lethal burn, can protect Snapcaster Mage from Abrupt Decay and also the others.
The card was discussed here before, but perhaps the benefits currently outweigh the drawbacks.

To your information. I run a list with 18 lands (7 fetchhies) without Cunning Wish for a more flexible sideboard. I never wanted CW back, since I cut it.
Usually it is way too clunky to wish for most solutions and it would be wiser to go off instead of trying to defuse the situation.

Would like to here your opinions about these suggestions.

[JPoJohnson]

With the deck running so many basics, I feel like that's not super important. It would be far too limited in it's use. Just fetch smart if the opponent plays Stifle. And, in G1, if he gets to use it on your land then you should teach him a lesson and kill him with Brain Freeze. See how often he stifles your land after that! :laugh:

3/1 FoW/Misdirection has been moved to by some people in various decks that want 4 counters. With this deck playing the wait game, you typically have to kill things that will kill you and not counter things that prevent you from winning. You wait until the last possible moment to kill someone with lethal on the stack. I personally wouldn't make the switch, but you could if you like. I would be more likely to do 4-0 in the main FoW and maybe a misdirect in the SB if I wanted access to it with Cunning Wish (I run 3 wishes).

[JDK]

Hey Guys,
Countering Stifle on our fetchland, using it in response to Rishadan Port, countering Sinkhole or even Vindicate.
Read what Stifle targets. The other cards are cases rarely relevant.


Is that worth 1-2 slots or are the places usually to expensive for such a card?

No.

[Technics]

Read what Stifle targets. The other cards are cases rarely relevant.


No.

My biggest thing is that Stifle when I have 2 other lands open is not the end of the world. It's stifle on the second land thats killer. And like others said. Just fetch smart.

[Oldboy]

Thanks for the fast answers.
H3llsp4wn is correct. Doesn't even work with Stifle. Just was amazed at the "Draw two cards". But too limited.
Yet I never lost to a single Stifle. Just wanted to abuse opposing spells to take advantage of the drawing. ;)

[SingleReel]

So today I found something that might interest some Solidarity players here:

http://mtgstocks.com/decks/56465

Not only is someone actually placing "well" using a classic Solidarity build, but it was not even distinguished as High Tide/Reset or Solidarity... it was just crammed in with Spiral Tide? Just a coincidence I found it! You know when a deck archetype is marginalized when people become completely oblivious to what it actually is! In fact it has never been distinguished as an archetype on the above site ever...I thought probably because of it's scarcity, but perhaps due to ignorance as well.

[JPoJohnson]

That's actually pretty much the identical list that I run! I haven't taken it to a tournament yet, but I will at some point haha (:

[SingleReel]

That's actually pretty much the identical list that I run! I haven't taken it to a tournament yet, but I will at some point haha (:

It is what I would consider to be close to a classic list, almost anything with 3x Opt & 1x Peek I would consider classic haha. I've always preferred Peer Through Depths over the Opt & Peek package, but I do understand Peek's pre-combo foresight, and the first turn cantripping they both allow for. I was originally running a more philosophically classic list, a sort of Combo-centric list, but I found out quickly the days of trying to Goldfish your opponent with minimal disruption and a combo-centric list are over, at least in my meta-game... I almost exclusively have to deal with, Jund, BUG Control, and Death & Taxes :S Meaning I'm always dealing with Deathrite Shaman (why I only run 2x Snapcaster), Thoughtseize, Sinkhole and Ethersworn Canonist (need Repeal!). I found that I had to run a list with more disruption/control/cantripping cards to slow my opponent down while crafting my hand, which subsequently has made crafting a great hand more consistent, while being much easier to find High Tide when it is absent, and I normally get to drop more lands before starting to combo. Remand, Repeal and Twincast have become quintessential in my deck since I added them. In fact I've been toying around with a Tapped Out page dedicated to my list for awhile now, an overview/description of sorts; http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/about-to-snap/. Might as well share it for what it is worth!

[JPoJohnson]

It is what I would consider to be close to a classic list, almost anything with 3x Opt & 1x Peek I would consider classic haha. I've always preferred Peer Through Depths over the Opt & Peek package, but I do understand Peek's pre-combo foresight, and the first turn cantripping they both allow for. I was originally running a more philosophically classic list, a sort of Combo-centric list, but I found out quickly the days of trying to Goldfish your opponent with minimal disruption and a combo-centric list are over, at least in my meta-game... I almost exclusively have to deal with, Jund, BUG Control, and Death & Taxes :S Meaning I'm always dealing with Deathrite Shaman (why I only run 2x Snapcaster), Thoughtseize, Sinkhole and Ethersworn Canonist (need Repeal!). I found that I had to run a list with more disruption/control/cantripping cards to slow my opponent down while crafting my hand, which subsequently has made crafting a great hand more consistent, while being much easier to find High Tide when it is absent, and I normally get to drop more lands before starting to combo. Remand, Repeal and Twincast have become quintessential in my deck since I added them. In fact I've been toying around with a Tapped Out page dedicated to my list for awhile now, an overview/description of sorts; http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/about-to-snap/. Might as well share it for what it is worth!

Yeah, Lili + DRS can ruin anyone's day.

[SingleReel]

Yeah, Lili + DRS can ruin anyone's day.

Yeah the first tournament I brought my first Solidarity build to was a complete disaster, I had some horrendous luck :S All but two games I had to deal with either a first turn Deathrite Shaman or Thoughtseize... and later Liliana of the Veil, In fact I remember one match my opponent was on his third turn and plays; Liliana of the Veil, in desperation (with only 3 lands each) I play a Cunning Wish and grab Daze, I return a land and counter it! His fourth turn he plays a second Liliana of the Veil... in further desperation I pitch a card to use Disrupting Shoal, I counter it... I'm thinking omg I bent over backwards, but I countered two Liliana in a row, I won't have to deal with her again... then he takes his next turn; and plays a third Liliana of the Veil! At this point I'm dying inside... needless to say I was depleted at that point and lost shortly.

[Marowfreeze]

Hi guys I have been looking around for active solidarity discussions for about 2 months now and got directed here so yay! Reading back I see many people have started using a few repeals in the MB and I am wondering what are the main targets for it off the top of my head
Delver
Deathrite shaman
Goyf
Shardless agent
Stoneforge mystic
Snapcaster mage(usually are own)
Goblins?
Dredge creatures such as ichorid?


I am kinda New to legacy so don't know many other threats that are really within range of repeal that we worry about, but I do know that sneak and show/reanimator/hypergenesis is a thing and any of the big creatures that resolve early probably destroy us.
I was wondering if anyone had thought about using
Choking tethers(3U instant-tap up too 4 creatures, cycle 1U: when you cycle you may tap 1 creature)
I like tethers because it seems to stall 1 turn like repeal(assuming the target bounced is a creature and just gets recast 2nd main)
Without being able to be Counterspelled and does not fizzle if the target is illegal on resolution so I guarantee cantrip
Also interesting mechanic choking tethers can hit Emrakrul because it is not a spell when using the cycle but instead a triggered ability
I guess I'm just wondering what permanent are being hit by repeal because to me it seems like the majority of the time it would be a three mana spell where as snap is basically free snap+eot impulse dig deeper/sculpt better

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[cjva]

Now there is some time since I played Solidarity (or Legacy at all to be honest). But you can also hit cards like Counterbalance, trinispheres, Thalia's etc. Cards that prevent you from going off, and from my experience bouncing dudes was rarely something you needed to do unless they where faster then a 4-5 turn combo deck.

[Marowfreeze]

Now there is some time since I played Solidarity (or Legacy at all to be honest). But you can also hit cards like Counterbalance, trinispheres, Thalia's etc. Cards that prevent you from going off, and from my experience bouncing dudes was rarely something you needed to do unless they where faster then a 4-5 turn combo deck.

I know counterbalance is our worse nightmare and why every high tide/solidarity build runs wipe away which nicely deals with trinisphere as well, Thalia seems kinda nasty, have not seen her played much in legacy (yet) and still pretty comfortably puts repeal out of play (4 mana to cast) if there is any addition to her as a clock we would probably lose so snap is better for her end of turn three bounce and in response to recast on turn four go off. As quoted by someone earlier "the days of gold fishing our opponents are over"and I believe that is the main reason for repulse and the like now, stall a few extra turns while still netting more cards for our combo

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[SingleReel]

I know counterbalance is our worse nightmare and why every high tide/solidarity build runs wipe away which nicely deals with trinisphere as well, Thalia seems kinda nasty, have not seen her played much in legacy (yet) and still pretty comfortably puts repeal out of play (4 mana to cast) if there is any addition to her as a clock we would probably lose so snap is better for her end of turn three bounce and in response to recast on turn four go off. As quoted by someone earlier "the days of gold fishing our opponents are over"and I believe that is the main reason for repulse and the like now, stall a few extra turns while still netting more cards for our combo


Thalia, Guardian of Thraben really hurts, and if they can get two out it becomes a nightmare... Although Solidarity can work around one if pushed. Thalia seems to be in near all Death and Taxes builds in my local meta-game, along with the even more problematic Ethersworn Canonist, which is why I need bounce (& cantrip), enter Repeal, but then again one Mother of Runes dismantles our plan, leaving not much more than a wished Wipe Away or Rebuild to at least take care of Ethersworn(s). "Stall a few turns" is key, A philosophy along with cantripping that can become a great advantage, instilling control and disruption. That is why I have no hesitation to playing Repeal or Remand, and even flashbacking with Snapcaster Mage...Stall with the benefit of card replacement and so much more...feels great to me.

[ScatmanX]

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben really hurts, and if they can get two out...
I'd really like to see that...

[SingleReel]

I'd really like to see that...

Haha, thankfully it has never happened to me... Although admittedly one time I did have Death and Taxes pull two Ethersworn Canonist on me, at that moment the one Snap I had in hand was little comfort :S

[davelin]

Haha, thankfully it has never happened to me... Although admittedly one time I did have Death and Taxes pull two Ethersworn Canonist on me, at that moment the one Snap I had in hand was little comfort :S

Thalia is a legend, Canonist is not.

[SingleReel]

Thalia is a legend, Canonist is not.

Ahh correct, Legendary... please excuse my ignorance to observe such a fact. In all my usual haste to respond to Thalia I must have constantly missed that :tongue:

[cronos]

Has anyone tried to play one or two copies of Noxious Revival? I think it is a good idea. Regards.

[JPoJohnson]

Has anyone tried to play one or two copies of Noxious Revival? I think it is a good idea. Regards.

I thought about it for a bit, but it doesn't speed up the deck and only in certain circumstances is it great, other times it's not necessary. Because of that it didn't make the cut for me.

[HansonWK]

I've had most of the deck built for a while, finally decided to borrow 2 forces and some fetches to bring this to a tournament. I went 2-3-1 in the end, though one loss and the draw I could have won, but misplayed quite badly in both. But it was my first outing with th deck, so as long as I have learned from my misplays I'm still pretty happy. I had people coming over to watch my games most rounds, people seemed to love the deck, especially people who didn't play 4+ years ago when it was a 'real' deck.

Throughout the day, I had people refer to the deck as math-storm, peasant-tide, and the 10 minute turn deck!

Here is my list



12 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
1 Peek
2 Flusterstorm
1 Brain Freeze
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Impulse
4 Reset
3 Snap
2 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
4 Meditate
1 Turnabout
3 Force of Will
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Repeal
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Stifle
SB: 1 Misdirection


Round 1, vs Titan Post.
5 turns go by with me casting can trips, him landing a Sensia's top and a Candelstick, as wel as getting some lands with expedition map. Turn 5 or 6 he casts a Kozilek, then Show and Tells in a prime time. I let both resolve because I had 2 High Tides with force back up, reset and stroke of genius and I'm not sure if he is playing counter magic main deck. I High Tide twice, reset, draw 8 cards, then cast a bunch of spells, cunning wish for Ravenous Trap, Brain Freeze him and Ravenous Trap when his Ulamog hits the yard. He has Emrakul in hand so the rest of his deck is milled. This game took about hald an hour.
Game 2, I mull to 6, he mulls to 5. Turn 3 he casts chalice on 1. Neither of us do much, I imagine he has Top's, Map's, and Candels in his hand that he can't cast. End of his turn I wish for Hurkyls and bounce his chalice. He recasts it next turn but I force it, he then casts top and a candel and a map. Next turn he casts Prime Time. In response I high Tide. I cast reset and he casts swan song. I cast another rest, he casts another swan song. I cast a third reset. I stoke myself for 8 and then force his prime time. We both forget I should have 2 tokens form swan songs since they both resolved. I could have tried to force one of the swan songs and keep going off here, but I know I would probably need at least 2 pieces of gy hard, and with 1 wish gone and stroke in the bin I decided to try again in a few turns, since he didn't have any threats. A turn later, we remember the tokens, the judges says I get the tokens still since we noticed in the upkeep 1 turn cycle after I should have had them. I would actually have been able to win via combat damage had I both remebered the tokens, and remembered to attack with them, though he could always get a glimmerpost for some life gain, so it probably didn't matter anyway. Time is called a few tunrs latter. he resolves a prime time. next turn he attacks me with it and i should have cast snap at this point, it would have forced a draw, and I would win 1-0-1. Instead I let him attack, he got eye of ugin, untapped it with candels, repeals his candel and recast it to make lots of mana, got a emrakul and cast it. I try to go off in repsonse. In resp to my snapcaster, he casts crop rotation and gets a bojuka bog, i try to go off with both an emrakul and a bog trigger on the stack, but I brick. His extra turn would be turn 5. Had I not attacked with my swans the turn before, I could have blocked a swan and won. I also could have not tried to go off that turn, and in the extra turn, try to go off OR find a turnabout, which I could use as a fog and win via draw. A bunch of misplays here cost me the game.

Round 2 vs hatebears, much less exciting. Game one Thalia and Leonin Arbiter land. Not knowing what he was playing, I kept a hand of double reset, high tide, mediatate and 3 lands, but I lose when he casts a sword of war and piece.
Game 2 I force his Thalia, he lands an aether vial. Few turns later he vials in a thalia. Next turn I try to bounce his Thalia with snap, but he vials in a flickerwisp in response to stop me going off. I should have seen that one coming to be fair.

Round 3 vs Miracles.
Game 1 I win though a counterbalance by flusterstorming a brain storm, he has a land on top so I can resolve a high tide and some spells. I Brianfreeze, remand my brain freeze, and brain freeze again for the win.
Game 2 goes on for a while, until he lands a Rest in Peace. my hand of 2 snapcasters and a snap is looking pretty bad. I impulse and see a high tide, but without any untap effects it wont get me anywhere. My repeal on his RiP is forced, I flusterstorm his force, and he Pyroblasts my repeal.
Game 3 he gets counter top on turn 3, and I can't win from there. I try anyway, but fail to the power of counterbalance.

Round 4 vs Death and Taxes.
Game 1 I counter his Thalia. he gets some creatures down, but I brain Freeze him before he can do anything. He ends up with 2 cards in his library, but realises he can't kill me before he draws nothing.
Game 2 he mulls to 6. He has 2 Rishadan Ports which are really irratating. He lands a Stoneforge and gets batterskull. I cast a high tide with 2 lands tapped from port, then reset, then turnabout, then brain freeze, remand my brain freeze, drawing cunning wish, wish for brain freeze, and brain freeze again.

Round 5 vs dredge.
Game 1, he dredges about 40 cards in on turn 4. He goes to flashback dread return and I cunning wish for ravenous trap, and he concedes.
Game 2 he sides into painters servant and grindstone. He goes off turn 3. Not expecting that at all.
Game 3 I see no wishes or the sugricals I put in. Counter a faithless looting, but he gets some dredge action going. Cabal Therapy takes my high tides, ichorids and zombies beat me down. I try to go off with 1 high tide when he has lethal on board. I end up stroking myself for 8, leaving 4 open so I can hopefully win off a reset, a snapcaster for the reset in my bin, or a turnabout. I dont draw any of them, cast a brainstorm and see a turnabout but only 3 mana. If I had stroked for 7 I would have done it, but there's no knowing the at the time. I wouldn't call that a misplay, but I think leaving 5 mana is probably better, since it means mediate to draw reset or a snap works as well.

Round 6 vs TES.
Game 1 I wait for him to try to go off. i force a Ad Naseum turn 4. He doesn't do much for another few turns. He tried to cast silence on turn 7, (awful late for a TES deck, no idea what he kept but he probably shouldn't have XD) In response to Silence, I go off with a few high tides and resets, brainfreeze his deck, hardcast force on his silence and show him my flusterstorm for his tendrils.
Game 2 I wait for him again. I kept a hand of Force, Flusterstorm, Flusterstorm, cantrip, cantrip. I counter his thoughtseize with Force exiling brain storm (feels bad, but I needed the flusterstorms). Turn 4 he casts Silence again. He says after the game that he could only storm for 8, but knew i would fight over the first silence. I cast some spells and draw some cards, then flusterstorm the silence. He casts another silence. I do some more things and cast some more spells and hardcast force this silence. I brainfreeze him for lethal, then cunning wish and he concedes.

Overall, i had a lot of fun, and though I made a bunch of misplays, I'm pretty happy. The deck is very difficult, and involves a lot of maths, and I think its something that you need a whole lot of practice with to get good at. I currently try to practice on cockatrice, but no one sticks around for game 2! I wonder why!

I might try to get a trop and 2 more fetches, and put Hunting Pack in my sideboard next time which a friend suggested to me. I'm pretty happy with the main deck as it is for now, will play a few more tournaments with it and decide on any changes from there.

[Ralf]

So what do you all think of Polymorphist's Jest as a good anti-hatebear ?

I'll try it against D&T for example. At least, you have to reach 6 island to cast it through Thalia, then Tide + Reset.
Might be difficult.

[Ragdoll]

So what do you all think of Polymorphist's Jest as a good anti-hatebear ?

Not to mention the "until of turn" trick that can help us cast it at the end of opponent's end of turn phase.

Which is? Could you explain this trick :) ?

Edit: What I meant was is there a trick that makes them still 1/1 during your turn? I thought they become themselfs again at the clean up step? If the trick is not connected with this thing then I'm sorry for my question :P

[Ralf]

Which is? Could you explain this trick :) ?

Edit: What I meant was is there a trick that makes them still 1/1 during your turn? I thought they become themselfs again at the clean up step? If the trick is not connected with this thing then I'm sorry for my question :P

You are correct (Continuous effect = clean up step). I was not. Message edited.

[Ahtii]

Took this deck as my second deck project ! Its blast to play!

I was wondering why people are running so little hunting packs ? :)

Sideboard definately not great , havent put much thought on it really.

My current list:

4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Impulse
2 Opt
1 Peek
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Cunning Wish
2 Turnabout
3 Snap
1 Remand
3 Meditate
1 Flash of insight
4 Snapcaster Mage

8 Blue fetch
9 Island
1 Tropical island

SB:
1 Hunting pack
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue sun's Zenith
1 Misdirection
1 Pact of negation
2 Wipe away
1 Turnabout
1 meditate
1 Snap
1 Mindbreak trap
1 polymorphist's Jest
1 Surgical Extraction
1 echoing truth
1 disrupt

edit: forgot to add resets

[JPoJohnson]

How many times have you actually effectively utilized hunting pack where it was the only option to wish for?

[Ahtii]

Hunting pack is good actually quite often ! its just really safe plan to go when you are low on cards ! The card enables basicly 3 card kills that are very unsafe if you have to wish for sideboard meditate

5 lands + reset + reset + cunning wish = 4 beast if opponent didnt cast anything that turn. (can go easily if fizzled last turn for some reason , and you are not dead yet. I have used this after getting high tides surgicaled)

4 lands + high tide + reset + cunning wish

5 lands high tide + reset + cunning wish = 4+ beasts over Thalia , guardian of thraben or Thorn of amethyst. I have done this several times in very short time I have played the deck.

Those are just example scenarios from many possibilities

I think having 1 land vulnerable to blood moon // wasteland , is definately worth the advantage hunting pack gives.

[GoldenCid]

edit: forgot to add resets

hohoh....didnt read this and deleted my post!
Anyway it wasn't important.
Solidarity is very funny deck...most people looks at you like saying WTF are you doing? You respond to anything. However, i must to admit that it's a very skillfull deck and it's not so much rewarding as one could expect.
My experience with T. island and hunting pack was 50-50. When snapy was nomt printed HP was a nice way out to emrakul decks because i could not flashback tide to rise my mana pool for casting a lethal stoke of genious. In the same dates wasteland waas a trouble too. Maybe i was too "newbie" too the deck and made missplays but it was a hurt when you topdeck the trop with a wasteland on line. Yeah you can resp to their activation with a second untap effect but you had to have it previous to go off. No to mention the pressure pushed by your opo while you shape your hand. So these last posts "zombified" my love for the deck and will say that the cards that area must for running this deck are:

Tide (set)
Reset (the most powerful card ever!)
Snapcaster (at least 2 of them)
Cunning wish (3-4)
Brainstorm (set)
Impulse (set)
Turnabout (1-2)
BF (1-2)

You cant lack of any of these cards.

As a debate i would like you to tell me what are your tricks or strategies for dealing with counter top.

[Ahtii]

I havent played the deck for long, so dont know if someone has better strat. For Miracles I have just sided 1 wipe away and disrupt in , for Snap and Blue suns. My plan has been basicly go off with 2-4 lands, as early as it seems possible / reasonable. Haven't got the nut 2 land kill hands against miracles yet [hightide + snapcaster + snap + reset + brainfreeze + 2 lands]. When going off I value cards > mana , if they dont resolve CB / Top lock , its always possible to try again next turn. For example opponent trying to resolve Counterbalance turn 3 --> start going off , notice that im going to fizzle, still trying to hit force of will for CB, If I hit, its possible to try again when you finally get to untap. Again hunting pack is in my opinion sick in these situations, when you are low cards after trying to combo and fizzle + used fow. Offcourse its important to be carefull for Terminus

Anyway as I said, im quite beginner with the deck , and its my secondary project. I dont play it for great records, And I wouldnt take it to large Legacy torunaments. Most of the matchups in current metagame are quite poor (or I am really bad) , but theres lots play to the deck , and its definatelly possible to outplay opponents for great succes, while having a blast doing it!

[Ralf]

Guess what ? a new toy has been spoiled.

Dig through time:
6UU. Instant
Delve.
Look at the top seven cards of your library. Put two of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

Double impulse in one card ?

It seems impressive.

[Poron]

that's pure card advantage.. as soon as you're able to discard your lands..

[ScatmanX]

Oh my. That card actually looks amazing during the combo turn. Maybe a 2 of or something. Might be even be castable on t3 or 4 if you r not dead yet.
Will get a playset for sure.

[Ralf]

that's pure card advantage.. as soon as you're able to discard your lands..

Did I miss something ?

You look at 7 cards and keep 2 -> whatever (lands, instant)
For a combo deck like solidarity where you sculpt your hand until the very last moment to go-off, it nets you +1 card and help you to stack your deck even more...
Not to mention that this card should even lower the fizzle rate, during the combo turn.

1) Reaching threshold should not be a huge problem
2) But, SCM shenanigans could be impacted

[Poron]

this card is stronger, during the combo, if you can Delve of the game dead cards like lands drawn during the combo.

[SirTylerGalt]

Guess what ? a new toy has been spoiled.

Dig through time:
6UU. Instant
Delve.
Look at the top seven cards of your library. Put two of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

Double impulse in one card ?

It seems impressive.

Comboes nicely with Split Decision (or Twincast if you like playing with simpler cards) :)

Too bad it's not "look at 7 cards, put 2 in your hands, the rest in your GY", it would make it easier to flashback :)

[Mackan]

I've been playing high tide a lot earlier (both irl and on modo) and I recently got tired of miracles which I normally play. The spirals and candelabras are quite expensive, even on magic online, so I figured I could give solidarity a shot. I've now played 10+ matches (vs pretty good opponents) and Im something like 4-6 which is about as good as I expected. I think the deck is a lot of fun (especially when people expect me to be on miracles:D) and there are a lot of tough decisions. This is the list I ran.

CREATURES (4)
4 Snapcaster Mage
INSTANTS (38)
4 Remand
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Flusterstorm
4 Impulse
4 Reset
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
4 Opt
4 Force of Will
LANDS (18)
12 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
SIDEBOARD (15)
1 Brain Freeze
1 Wipe Away
1 Ravenous Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Blue Sun’s Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Swan Song
1 Snap
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Meditate

Some comments on different cardchoices from my perspective as a spiral tide player.

With a cunning wish toolbox I don't want to go below 3 wishes even if they are clunky.

I normally don't want win cons in maindeck.

Opt is surprisingly good because I found myself often snapcaster mage turn3 and I want enough 1drops for that.

I sided remand out pretty much every game. Legacy is very fast and I rarely gained any tempo remanding spells and I often ended up drawing them when I wanted to combo instead.

I felt a little low on untap effects, especially if BSZ was my route to victory.

Hurkyll's recall is about $50 online so I will borrow it for further testing.

I don't think 3 surgicals and 1 trap are needed but I couldn't find anything else with short notice.

I have been advocating Mystic Remora a lot and I will probably give them a spin over those surgical extractions this weekend.


Some questions.
How reliable do you think Snap / repeal is? I allready found snapcaster to be a huge liability because DRS and sidedboarded cards hurt the deck (which Im not really used to). Is bouncing a snapcaster mage realistic? Not only do we open ourselves to the cards mentioned above but also to swords to plowshares and lightning bolt. I got to Echoing truth 3x snapcasters in one game so it's definitly a good option to have some shenanigans available when you goldfish. Is those bounce cards (or bounce in general) really worth slots in maindeck just for the option to bounce something of your opponent?

Going forward I think I want to cut Remand and add a few turn about and something else in the maindeck and cut 3 surgicals and maybe the blue blast for 3 remoras and 1 hurkyll's recall (or rebuild).

Any suggestions highly appreciated! Card suggestions are welcome (I play modo a lot) :-)

/Marcus (Truckis on Modo).

[Ralf]

Any suggestions highly appreciated! Card suggestions are welcome (I play modo a lot) :-)

/Marcus (Truckis on Modo).

Ok.
This is my list. Kitchen table one but heavily tested nonetheless.
I'm pretty sure after a few games that you will put up even better results than with yours.

18 Island
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Cunning Wish
3 Flusterstorm
3 Impulse
3 Opt
3 Remand
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Meditate
4 Repeal
4 Reset

SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Tolarian Winds
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Polymorphist's Jest
SB: 1 Snap
SB: 1 Swan Song
SB: 2 Turnabout
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Impulse

This build is not ordinary.
There are no fetchs. The reason behind is that I like stacking my deck without any shuffle effects.
Not only I gain a few life from not fetching (which really matters as +3 life could be the difference between life and death) but also I increase the odds of seeing the missing combo piece as the game drags on. It also makes Tolarian Wind a very very wishable card.
At last, you avoid life mathematical issues to evaluate properly your "crucial" turn: Geez, I can't fow back right now/or fetch because I'm facing lethal or I miscalculate and I am at 1 HP...
Sure it makes "brainstorm" less powerful early games. But once you get good at playing BS + Impulse + Brain freeze (occasionally) on yourself you will overcome this aspect.

If you want you can include 6 fetch lands as the norm. But I encourage you to test at least 10 games before making any changes. You could also cut down an island for the 4th opt. (Currently testing this config)

This build wants to delay the usual crucial turn by a whole full turn at least so you could have another island in play.

1) Play 4 repeal to delay attacking creature/active shaman. During the combo turn, repeal is there to bounce SCM.
2) Cut SCM down to 3. I found the SCM perfect number to be 3. 4 SCM usually makes your opening hands more clunky as you need 3 mana to flashback at least a "BS" or an "Opt" or a fluster.
3) Cut Flusterstorm down to 3. The card is good but situational.
4) Cut Remand down to 3. Usually good when you are on the play but bad to very bad when you are on the draw.
5) With this build, play 4 meditate and 3 impulse MD. 1 impulse in the board. You want to replenish your hand very early. Drawing 4 cards by end of turn 3 facing an almost empty board (thanks to repeal) is usually game over for your opponent. Even more when you have played your Force of will agressively. Paying 6 (wish + meditate) to see/grab 4 cards is worse than 5 (usual corner case is 5 islands = 8 mana with 1 land for tide = wish + Impulse + BS = 7 cards drawn to find a reset you cannot see 7 cards if Impulse is a meditate because you lack 1 mana). So, either you are looking for a specific card and impulse does the same for 5 mana or you want to be drawing a bunch of cards and Tolarian wind/Blue Sun Zenith are usually as good as a meditate.

Happy testing.

My two cents.

If you have any questions, feel free.

[GoldenCid]

No md tbt seems not good

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

[JPoJohnson]

If you don't have fetchlands, then you better not run Brainstorm. That is the strongest card in the format and the reason fetches are run in this deck. If you cut fetches, cut the BS.

[Ralf]

If you don't have fetchlands, then you better not run Brainstorm. That is the strongest card in the format and the reason fetches are run in this deck. If you cut fetches, cut the BS.

Ah. Those internet statements.

[JDK]

BS gets significantly worse with less shuffle effects, but cutting them leaves you with a pretty horrible card selection. ;)

[Kanti]

Ah. Those internet statements.

Ah. You're a fucking dullard.

On the new card, it seems okay, but what this deck needs is a new cc2 spell as Remand is pretty obsolete and cutting it makes you curve out all wonky. All I see in that card is a decent late game spell, something that Solidarity really doesn't need that much help on. The nonbo with Snapcaster as others have mentioned also isn't that neat. In other words, no, I would not run it. I'd much rather run FoI, which isn't that great itself. It would be pretty comparable in the early game, and it's flashback cost of 2 mana is the same you'd be paying for a fully delved out copy of the other spell. All this while turning BF into one of the best draw spell of your deck.

[Ralf]

Ah. You're a fucking dullard.

I already gave explanations about why I am not playing fetch lands in my initial post. I also invited readers to put back fetch lands in if it does not suit their playstyle.
Either the basher did not get to read my entire post or you are suggesting you belong to this category as well ?

“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche



On the new card, it seems okay, but what this deck needs is a new cc2 spell as Remand is pretty obsolete and cutting it makes you curve out all wonky. All I see in that card is a decent late game spell, something that Solidarity really doesn't need that much help on. The nonbo with Snapcaster as others have mentioned also isn't that neat. In other words, no, I would not run it. I'd much rather run FoI, which isn't that great itself. It would be pretty comparable in the early game, and it's flashback cost of 2 mana is the same you'd be paying for a fully delved out copy of the other spell. All this while turning BF into one of the best draw spell of your deck.

Actually, I was the one mentioning the "nonbo" with SCM.
I guess this is a wishable card or a 2-of MD card, but it needs testing:

It is pretty weak early game and seems (until testing) relatively strong as a setup card before going off and maybe even more during the combo turn to lower the fizzle rate. Delve (X) is no joke, unfortunately, but not that bad against decks packing a lot of discard.

Hence, is it viable along with SCM in the list ? Or will it replace SCM ? Time will tell.

Both are affected by DRS / gravehate. But I feel like DTT has the edge over SCM because:
1) It does not target which is a pretty big deal nowadays.
2) Delve ability does not go onto the stack

The mana cost spread between the two spells could also come into the equation. SCM will always cost 3+ mana minimum to flashback something whereas DTT could cost 2+.

Last but not least, obviously, DTT has not the outstanding "replaying" power of SCM but it also means that your whole deck is creatureless leaving opponent with dead cards in hands (e.g: you won't get punch hard in the dick when you eat a crucial removal spell/stifle on SCM or its triggered ability)

As far as FoI is concerned: Do you really want to pay 5 mana to draw 2 cards whose:
- the first one is the first of the library
- the second one could be one picked in your entire library ?
Not to mention that FoI is even worse with SCM.

For me it is a clear upgrade vs FoI.

[JPoJohnson]

I already gave explanations about why I am not playing fetch lands in my initial post. I also invited readers to put back fetch lands in if it does not suit their playstyle.
Either the basher did not get to read my entire post or you are suggesting you belong to this category as well ?

“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche



Actually, I was the one mentioning the "nonbo" with SCM.
I guess this is a wishable card or a 2-of MD card, but it needs testing:

It is pretty weak early game and seems (until testing) relatively strong as a setup card before going off and maybe even more during the combo turn to lower the fizzle rate. Delve (X) is no joke, unfortunately, but not that bad against decks packing a lot of discard.

Hence, is it viable along with SCM in the list ? Or will it replace SCM ? Time will tell.

Both are affected by DRS / gravehate. But I feel like DTT has the edge over SCM because:
1) It does not target which is a pretty big deal nowadays.
2) Delve ability does not go onto the stack

The mana cost spread between the two spells could also come into the equation. SCM will always cost 3+ mana minimum to flashback something whereas DTT could cost 2+.

Last but not least, obviously, DTT has not the outstanding "replaying" power of SCM but it also means that your whole deck is creatureless leaving opponent with dead cards in hands (e.g: you won't get punch hard in the dick when you eat a crucial removal spell/stifle on SCM or its triggered ability)

As far as FoI is concerned: Do you really want to pay 5 mana to draw 2 cards whose:
- the first one is the first of the library
- the second one could be one picked in your entire library ?
Not to mention that FoI is even worse with SCM.

For me it is a clear upgrade vs FoI.

I read the post. You are still running brainstorm. You are going to brainstorm lock the crap out of your deck and then lose because you can't shuffle away the stuff you don't want. If you want to run a fetchless build that is fine, do it. Do not run brainstorm.

[JDK]

But he likes to "stack" his library....

:wink:

[Dice_Box]

Then let him play a deck built around Dwarven Recruiter. Brainstorm and no shuffle effects? What are two Time Walks worth these days?

[Sentient6]

Hey,

The printing of Dig Through Time kinda let me remember my old love for solidarity. I plan on trying out the following list:


Instant (38)

1x Brain Freeze
4x Brainstorm
3x Cunning Wish
2x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
4x High Tide
4x Impulse
3x Meditate
2x Opt
1x Peek
2x Remand
4x Reset
2x Snap
2x Turnabout

Land (18)

4x Flooded Strand
10x Island
4x Polluted Delta

Creature (4)

4x Snapcaster Mage

Sideboard (15)

1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
3x Disrupt
1x Flusterstorm
1x Meditate
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Rebuild
1x Repeal
1x Spell Pierce
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Twincast
1x Turnabout
1x Wipe Away

Not 100% certain about the sideboard, but it does seem interesting. I could also get behind running one Twincast main because of it's synergy with Dig Through Time, but idk what to cut. How is your opinion on running one High Tide in the sideboard vs 4 main in a list with three Cunning Wishes?

[JDK]

There is absolutely no point in running less than 4 HTs maindeck for a 3rd Cunning Wish...

[Sentient6]

Was thinking it might be good to have access to virtually six copies instead of four due to consistency. I always found keeping a hand without high tide risky. We do have cantrips and impulses and such, but it can still be frustrating sometimes.

[JDK]

With running less than 4 you lessen the chance to actually find one or have one in your opener...

Mitigating this with Wishes slows you down and speed is crucial.

[Ralf]

Was thinking it might be good to have access to virtually six copies instead of four due to consistency. I always found keeping a hand without high tide risky. We do have cantrips and impulses and such, but it can still be frustrating sometimes.

Silent Requiem, a former solidarity player was/is a strong defender of 3 HT MD and 1 in the side.

The main reason is that you may lose a bit of speed for more consistency.
Why ? Because you will lose games where you dig 20+ cards and fail to find a HT to go-off.
Having access to potentially 6 HT reduces the odds of not seeing one.

[JDK]

And it also reduces the chance of being able to combo on Turn 2 or 3 as well as taking up a valuable SB slot.

Seeing more than 20 cards without hitting HT is a rare cornercase and not worth exploring imo.

[Ralf]

And it also reduces the chance of being able to combo on Turn 2 or 3 as well as taking up a valuable SB slot.

Seeing more than 20 cards without hitting HT is a rare cornercase and not worth exploring imo.

Not so rare, unfortunately, and that's why solidarity is no longer as much played as it was in the past.
A lot of high tide players went for the spiral version as you have access to powerful cantrips at sorcery speed which help you dig for missing combo pieces or lands faster & better.
Not to mention that the crucial turn is generally speaking faster (T4 for HT + spiral) and usually more consistent, mainly because it is basically a 2 card combo vs 3 for solidarity (HT,reset & meditate).

Solidarity rules the stack, nevertheless, but it takes more time to sculpt your hand.

There were a lot of people trying to make solidarity a T3 combo-kill deck.
As for now, the most tuned ones (toward kill speed) are taking the SCM + SNAP road in order to be able to kill on T2/T3 (more likely T3).
But the consistency of such a path is very poor once you add opponent's interactions into the equation.
Being removal proof / gravehate proof is a thing in legacy.

Games 1 against fair decks are usually ours (like a lot of combo.deck)
It gets harder G2 & G3.
I don't see the point of improving our kill speed G1 when the only thing that really matter is consistency over 2 or 3 games to actually win a match.

I did test SCM+SNAP heavy config to know if that route could be the one we are looking for.
My answer is no. Indeed, you are sometime able to kill faster but it is way easier for your opponent to interact G2 & G3.
Overall results were just plain worse.

Actually , I will add that the 3 HT config is certainly the fastest and safer one in terms of killing consistency speed (I tested it but I don't play it).
Why ?
Because you have just more virtual HT in your deck which means that you will likely have more chance to try to combo on T4 with a HT in hand (being it wished for at EOT of T3 or you just have it).

But, as you mentioned, I also don't like having to spend a wish for a HT, as I found that it slightly increases your mid combo fizzle rate overall.

[Spigore]

I have to agree on Hellspawn here.

Running 3 High Tide maindeck is obviously wrong. Spending you turns cantripping for combo pieces is rough. Don't make it even worse.
I have left this deck alone a long time ago? Why? If you can't win counterwars to push your combo, you won't win.

The deck is awesome to play, is awesome to goldfish, is awesome to run in tournaments. But don't expect this deck to money-finish any tournaments except for your your occassional LGS-tournament.

Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to discuss a workable list, but I don't feel like discussing whether or not you should run 3 or 4 High Tides.

EDIT: Even running C.Wish in a build with Dig Through Time is not needed at all. Simple goldfishing will get you there.
The big question is, how to consecutively win counterwars and continue the combo.
I've been tweaking with Disrupt and Remand, but this doesn't get me far.
Running mainboard Pact, Trap? :really:

[Oldsrocket_27]

My initial attempt at a Dig Through Time version of the deck:

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Snap
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
2 Peek
2 Opt
1 Remand
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstrorm
2 Dig Through Time

6 Fetch
12 Island

SB:
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun’s Zenith
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe Away
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Swan Song
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Split Decision
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Remand

If I were to cut Cunning Wishes, I'd probably do so for 1 BSZ, 1-2 Dig Through Time, 0-1 Remand. I might actually cut the last snapcaster in that case as well, but I still like having one around, I'd just have to be careful about planning what I keep to flashback when delving. Going to test the list above first against a gamut tonight, and see how it feels.

[Ralf]

If you can't win counterwars to push your combo, you won't win.
The big question is, how to consecutively win counterwars and continue the combo.
I've been tweaking with Disrupt and Remand, but this doesn't get me far.
Running mainboard Pact, Trap? :really:

Well I can't see how you are losing "counterwars" as most standard lists are packing "X" flusterstorm MD...

[Spigore]

For example vs Canadian, you're on his turn 5, lethal incoming.
You missed a land drop, so you're at both let's say 3 lands.

You cast Tide which will obviously resolve. Add 4 mana in your pool, cast Reset.
He Spell Snares your Reset. You force it. He forces back. You fluster. He taps for 6 mana, you scoop with 2 mana in your pool, 5 cards spent, 2 cards left in your hand.
Basically, a combination of 2-3 counters makes you lose the counterwar. Daze being the easiest to deal with, can be a sucker when cast properly on your High Tide. Believe me, this is very common.
Postboard you're dealing with your enemies Pyroblasts and Flusters. :laugh:

Team America is a whole different story. The combination of a well hitted Hymn to Tourach with a fast clock is insane.
Luckily, this match is occasionally better than Canadian. If they tend to draw more creatures than Hymn/Liliana, this should get better.

Again, if you consecutively want to win counterwars, something has to change MD.
Pact seems appealing for this, but then again is very narrow.

[Ralf]

For example vs Canadian, you're on his turn 5, lethal incoming.
You missed a land drop, so you're at both let's say 3 lands.

You cast Tide which will obviously resolve. Add 4 mana in your pool, cast Reset.
He Spell Snares your Reset. You force it. He forces back. You fluster. He taps for 6 mana, you scoop with 2 mana in your pool, 5 cards spent, 2 cards left in your hand.
Basically, a combination of 2-3 counters makes you lose the counterwar. Daze being the easiest to deal with, can be a sucker when cast properly on your High Tide. Believe me, this is very common.
Postboard you're dealing with your enemies Pyroblasts and Flusters. :laugh:

Team America is a whole different story. The combination of a well hitted Hymn to Tourach with a fast clock is insane.
Luckily, this match is occasionally better than Canadian. If they tend to draw more creatures than Hymn/Liliana, this should get better.

Again, if you consecutively want to win counterwars, something has to change MD.
Pact seems appealing for this, but then again is very narrow.

In your example, you actually counter the FOW as your opponent has only 5 mana left (because he paid 1 for snare). So your reset shall resolve with 1 mana floating and 3 untapped island => you should be more than ready to make him sweat but only if you have a strong dig/draw spell in your hand.

From what I can read, imho, your problem is not "counterwars". It is drawing / having enough cards left to attempt to go-off after passing the counter barrier/discard shield.

[fuga]

I have one question. Does the card Split Decison, from the set Conspiracy, fill with the deck?

[Ralf]

I have one question. Does the card Split Decison, from the set Conspiracy, fill with the deck?

I guess you are looking at a new "Twincast".
But as far as Solidarity is concerned, the easier CMC to cast does not make this card any better than a good old twincast.

Maybe you could play it as a 1-of between MD & Side.

[Oldsrocket_27]

Testing with Dig Through Time has been very promising. The card advantage has been great for pulling back towards critical mass against discard-heavy decks, to the point where it won me a game against deathblade through double thoughtseize into resolved liliana. I still think 2 copies is the right number, and I still like having cunning wishes in the deck. The one snapcaster has felt about right, the one Snap has been a little situational, so I'm tempted to cut it if it continues to test badly. The maindeck flusterstorms are nice, but I'm often finding that I want to counter planeswalkers or Counterbalance/top, Which makes me want to switch one out for a spell pierce. Finally, I think I'd like to find room in the SB for Hydroblast, since Eidolon of the Great Revel has been revitalizing burn, and it's still useful enough against anyone with REB, Sneak and Show, UR delver. The second Wipe Away would probably be my cut, though if I wanted two Blasts, i'm not sure what else would go. For now, I like having the extra snapcaster and remand in the board for decks with 4 eldrazi, though that's still the least tested past of my SB. What does everyone think?

[Dark Ritual]

I haven't yet tried to develop a list with dig through time. Naturally we will run the card, it is the best thing for this deck in a long while as cards that make the cut in this deck are rarely printed since we're looking for better card draw, countermagic, and blue instants in general. WotC has gotten really creature friendly. Cards that could be cut for DTT:

Snapcaster mage
Cunning wish

Those, to me, are the slots. Both are not very good with DTT as wish exiles itself/doesn't reduce the cost and snapcaster is bad when you exile your graveyard to cast DTT for the least possible ideally UU. Another plus over DTT over wish and snapcaster is that it costs far less as wish adds 3 mana to whatever you get and doesn't inherently produce card advantage. Snapcaster really just adds 2 mana to cast anything from the yard as the body is irrelevant short of snap shenanigans that open us up to creature removal/is less than ideal. When you look at 7 cards you're likely to find what wish/snapcaster would have found anyways AND you get an extra card on top of that. DTT'ing into, say, reset + meditate is nothing short of obscene when combo'ing. Another really, really nice thing about DTT is that it's a shuffle effect for brainstorm mid combo when you typically don't have fetches unless the game really has gone on that long but at that point you should be winning anyways since inevitability is on our side and the number one reason to play this deck still even though some have cut remand from the deck in the context of counterwars remand is the best card in a counterwar by far as well as the brain freeze interaction. I know I cut it personally since the card has been less than impressive as of late especially in comparison to flusterstorm, which can actually counter discard whereas remanding hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, duress, etc. etc. is miserable. Flusterstorm in the combo mirror is vastly superior as well. Had a game against ANT with this where I had flusterstorm + FoW and my ANT opponent couldn't do anything especially when snapcaster flusterstorm came online due to 4 islands. Ended up combo'ing out on turn 12 or something very late like that after he infernaled for duress and put a duress on the stack. Remand in that spot? Not nearly as good due to the 2 cmc and can be played around with boatloads of mana whereas flusterstorm is almost always nigh impossible to play around for a storm deck.

On split decision: It is just a twincast really. You can't counter anything valuable with it so it's identical to twincast. The only playable will of the council card in legacy is council's judgment because you automatically get to vindicate a nonland permanent of theirs no matter what. With this it's just twincast every time and there isn't much difference between countering force of will or copying force of will it turns out.

Either way, excited to brew with DTT in here and hope to revitalize the deck somewhat. Finally get more copies of meditate in the deck as that's really what I miss the most when combo'ing is more meditates. Card is also insane in a grindy game. One thing to note with DTT is that upping the fetch count higher could be correct as each fetch shaves a mana off DTT.

[SirTylerGalt]

DTT comboes nicely with Brain Freeze.

- Chain a few spells
- BF yourself
- Resolve BF copies when needed to mill useless lands put back with Brainstorm, or when you need to fill the GY for Delve
- Continue combo chain
- Remand your BF, recast it targeting your opponent for lethal

Kind of like how MD Brain Freeze comboed with Snapcaster Mage, Visions of Beyond, and Remand in benthetenor's version.

MD Brain Freeze also helps against Counterbalance, and lets you win easily with Remand (no big combo chain needed).

[fuga]

DTT comboes nicely with Brain Freeze.

- Chain a few spells
- BF yourself
- Resolve BF copies when needed to mill useless lands put back with Brainstorm, or when you need to fill the GY for Delve
- Continue combo chain
- Remand your BF, recast it targeting your opponent for lethal

Kind of like how MD Brain Freeze comboed with Snapcaster Mage, Visions of Beyond, and Remand in benthetenor's version.

MD Brain Freeze also helps against Counterbalance, and lets you win easily with Remand (no big combo chain needed).

It wouldn't be better use the old Flash of Insight at this poit?

[Darkenslight]

It wouldn't be better use the old Flash of Insight at this poit?

FoI might let you see more cards overall, but the one-shot double-Impulse is definitely relevant from DTT.

[Oldboy]

I haven't yet tried to develop a list with dig through time. Naturally we will run the card, it is the best thing for this deck in a long while as cards that make the cut in this deck are rarely printed since we're looking for better card draw, countermagic, and blue instants in general. WotC has gotten really creature friendly. Cards that could be cut for DTT:

Snapcaster mage
Cunning wish

Those, to me, are the slots. Both are not very good with DTT as wish exiles itself/doesn't reduce the cost and snapcaster is bad when you exile your graveyard to cast DTT for the least possible ideally UU. Another plus over DTT over wish and snapcaster is that it costs far less as wish adds 3 mana to whatever you get and doesn't inherently produce card advantage. Snapcaster really just adds 2 mana to cast anything from the yard as the body is irrelevant short of snap shenanigans that open us up to creature removal/is less than ideal. When you look at 7 cards you're likely to find what wish/snapcaster would have found anyways AND you get an extra card on top of that. DTT'ing into, say, reset + meditate is nothing short of obscene when combo'ing. Another really, really nice thing about DTT is that it's a shuffle effect for brainstorm mid combo when you typically don't have fetches unless the game really has gone on that long but at that point you should be winning anyways since inevitability is on our side and the number one reason to play this deck still even though some have cut remand from the deck in the context of counterwars remand is the best card in a counterwar by far as well as the brain freeze interaction. I know I cut it personally since the card has been less than impressive as of late especially in comparison to flusterstorm, which can actually counter discard whereas remanding hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, duress, etc. etc. is miserable. Flusterstorm in the combo mirror is vastly superior as well. Had a game against ANT with this where I had flusterstorm + FoW and my ANT opponent couldn't do anything especially when snapcaster flusterstorm came online due to 4 islands. Ended up combo'ing out on turn 12 or something very late like that after he infernaled for duress and put a duress on the stack. Remand in that spot? Not nearly as good due to the 2 cmc and can be played around with boatloads of mana whereas flusterstorm is almost always nigh impossible to play around for a storm deck.

On split decision: It is just a twincast really. You can't counter anything valuable with it so it's identical to twincast. The only playable will of the council card in legacy is council's judgment because you automatically get to vindicate a nonland permanent of theirs no matter what. With this it's just twincast every time and there isn't much difference between countering force of will or copying force of will it turns out.

Either way, excited to brew with DTT in here and hope to revitalize the deck somewhat. Finally get more copies of meditate in the deck as that's really what I miss the most when combo'ing is more meditates. Card is also insane in a grindy game. One thing to note with DTT is that upping the fetch count higher could be correct as each fetch shaves a mana off DTT.

I totally agree!
I cutted Cunning Wish way before Dig Through Time was printed. A real sideboard is absolutely a benefit in my opinion.
Serapphus, who should be known here, easily convinced me of that. The combo of wishing for an answer usually is too clunky and doesn't automatically win a game.
The protection from Extractions is negligable, because we usually can still act in response and the High Tide resolved if not countered.
And only for this one case, I prefer running more options in sideboard, which are ordinarily found in time in our deck.
I believe Snapcaster Mage can still be run simultaneously with DTT, but I'll try it without for now.
Split Decision or Twincast on DTT is a real big move and doesn't work with SCM.
It costs UUUU and shows you 14 cards and gives you 4 cards. INSANE!
SCM gave us consistency, we were lacking, but made us resilient to removal in response to SCM-bounce, which can be played around, and to graveyard hate like deathrite shaman.
An early DRS still can hurt DTT, but I think, not as hard as removing the target of SCM.
In my opinion DTT provides us consistency too and improves the win-rate without tides beside the obvious cardadvantage.
I'm getting a real fan of the card and will for sure run 2 of them in my list with or without SCM. But leaving the opponent with a lot of dead cards first game, makes cutting the wishes even easier!
And the synergy with twincast is one of the best arguments for DTT over Flash of Insight! ;)

[SirTylerGalt]

I can't wait to go off in response to a Treasure Cruise, using multiple Twincasts to copy it during the combo chain, then Brain Freezing my opponent, before letting his Cruise resolve.

Remand is also great against opposing delve spells :p

[ScatmanX]

I can't wait to go off in response to a Treasure Cruise, using multiple Twincasts to copy it during the combo chain, then Brain Freezing my opponent, before letting his Cruise resolve.
Omg. Thanks. Now i really want to do this too. Gotta reassemble Solodarity.

[Oldboy]

Copying Treasure Cruise with Twincast makes him draw 3 more cards, doesn't it? Remanding Delve-Spells seems really nice.
If you cut Cunning Wish and Snapcaster Mage from Main, I recommend running 1x Noxious Revival instead.
It's not very likely that they cut you off your win-conditions with discard, but if they do, it's no auto-lose with 1x Preboard. Can also be used in other situations.

[JDK]

It's your copy. You draw...

[Oldsrocket_27]

With Burn and UR Delver seeing such a surge in popularity, could it be correct to start sideboarding Hydroblast?

[SirTylerGalt]

I've goldfished with 3 DTT maindeck, and it's insane how much gas and consistency it gives us. Due to the number of cantrips and fetches in this deck, you can usually cast it on turn 3 to find the missing combo pieces before going off on turn 4. During the combo turn, it's often better than Meditate, since it lets you find exactly what you need to continue your combo.

In this version of the deck, I decided not to play Snapcaster Mage / Snap. That way, I blank my opponent's removal and DRS. My graveyard is only used for DTT, which means I don't have to keep track of its exact contents, just the number of cards. If I were to play Snapcaster Mage, I'd have to keep track of which spells I want to exile for DTT and which ones I want to keep for SCM, which is mentally taxing. With no SCM in the deck, I can just take the top 6 cards in the GY and exile them, no need to choose the "worst" ones.

I think I want to go up to 4 DTT, not sure if I want the 4th one in the board or maindeck. If I add it in the board, I might want to move the 4th Meditate maindeck. Or maybe play 4 DTT / 3 Meditate maindeck, then exchange a DTT for a Meditate in sideboard games, when my opponent brings GY hate?


11 Island
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout

4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
1 Peek
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Dig Through Time

4 Force of Will
3 Remand
1 Twincast

3 Cunning Wish
2 Brain Freeze

// Sideboard [15]
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Flusterstorm
1 Twincast
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Misdirection

[JDK]

I'm currently testing 2 MD & 1 SB, without touching the number of Meditates though. Meditate is just too strong in this deck.

Will post my list once I have more results.

[Asthereal]

I'm currently testing 2 MD & 1 SB, without touching the number of Meditates though. Meditate is just too strong in this deck.
+1

I feel DTT should be a 1-2x main deck and 1x sideboard card.
This helps us to play 4x Meditate main (sucks to Wish for it...).

I am not sure we should cut the Snapcasters though.
3x main plus 2x Snap should still be very useful most of the time.

[Ralf]

Here is my take.

I have tested 3 configurations, right now. And I cannot say which one is the better.

1) DTT over Snapcaster
2) Mix of DTT & Snapcaster
3) Snapcaster over DTT

The first conclusions I can draw from these configurations are the following:
- When only playing DTT, your main kill condition is BF as we no longer can consistently generate HUGE amount of mana through SCM shenanigans.
- When playing a mix, one has to pay attention at the killing condition you wanna/are forced to use (BF or BSZ) because your choice are really really bound to it and I failed sometimes because I incorrectly picked up some cards instead of others. Decision tree is wider.
- For now, DTT will at least be a 1-of in the side as wishing for it has been particularly strong (in every configuration). So it took the Medidate/Impulse slot in the side.


This is rather interesting and raises some other assessments about how do we like to kill ?
A) During the combo turn -> BSZ kill
B) BFeezing & Tapping opponent's creature to watch him die the very next turn

For me, the sooner, the better = during the combo kill.

No SCM / X DDT

You need to BF and BSZ to kill on the combo turn with configuration 1. So either you play BF main or you have to play 2 C.wish to get a BF & a BSZ to actually kill your opponent. Not that it is not possible but I found it rather meh. SirTylerGalt has chosen to play BF main deck along with 3 C.Wish which is certainly the way to go if you are interested in playing only DTT and 0 SCM. 6 to 7 untappers are mandatory in this version.

The main problem with this configuration is that you have to properly evaluate the "BIG" turn.
If you fail to get the BF & BSZ kill you might have to go for BF & Turnabout kill and if you fail, you have to go for the BF kill and hope you won't get kill in between the combat phase and the next upkeep phase just before your opponent dies.

The main advantage with this configuration is that you can more consistently kill by T4. No joke. You don't have to wait til the very last moment to go-off.
Don't get me wrong but as much as I do like killing by T4, it does not suit my playstyle. I like being re-active and not pro-active with this deck. But I might be wrong.

And "Oh boyz, I hate playing BF main deck"...

X SCM / X DDT

A mix between both.
As already stated by other people, you have to pay attention at what card you are removing when playing DTT. At first, I thought DTT & SCM could not cohabit in the same deck. But fortunately, if you play tight you may end up having access to both world.

I would even argue that on paper, DTT into a SCM + whatever combo piece you need is not far a 100 % win rate. It pushes consistency far beyond imagining.
What you lose from previous configuration is speed as you will likely cut into turnabout/BF main deck to play some SCM.

Blanking removal & dodging gravehate, are they reasons to stay away from this build ?
At first sight, maybe. After testing a mix of both is particularly tricky for opponent to play against, why ?
- activated ability of DRS must be played each turn if your opponent wants to put pressure on DTT. But doing so, it exposes himself to "in response to DRS activated ability, I flash in SCM, blabla screw you"
- if your opponent fears SCM's shenanigans, there will be less to no pressure on your grave and playing DTT will be easier.

Honestly, I prefer this configuration. SCM is just too good to be excluded.

Happy testing everyone.

[SirTylerGalt]

Really interesting post Ralf, you gave me some food for thoughts. I think I'll go with 4 Meditate 3 DTT 2 SCM MD, and remove 1 Twincast, 1 Turnabout , 1 BF. I also need to try Repeal / Flusterstorm.

The problem with DRS is that they can often use it at the end of your turn, where it is harder for you to combo off, because Reset doesn't work. This means they can slowly eat your GY, while having DRS untapped on their turn. I guess Repeal solves this in your build.

[Ralf]

Really interesting post Ralf, you gave me some food for thoughts. I think I'll go with 4 Meditate 3 DTT 2 SCM MD, and remove 1 Twincast, 1 Turnabout , 1 BF. I also need to try Repeal / Flusterstorm.

The problem with DRS is that they can often use it at the end of your turn, where it is harder for you to combo off, because Reset doesn't work. This means they can slowly eat your GY, while having DRS untapped on their turn. I guess Repeal solves this in your build.

For DRS:
- Before combo turn, you are digging -> if DRS is used at your end of turn, nothing prevent you from using your snapcaster in response to dig even more (opt, brainstorm, impulse are sometimes the way I cycle my snapcaster).

- During combo turn -> you cannot really avoid an active DRS, you will likely walk into one activation. Baiting your opponent is the best you can do.

For my build

While testing the 3 DDT MD I was playing 10 island 8 fetchs but more often than not I stumble on not finding the 4th land.

I have gone back to my personal build which I am more used because of all the intrigacies I've put in it.

Lands
18 island

Usual Suspects
4 tide
4 reset
4 repeal
2 impulse
2 DDT
3 Meditate
3 Opt
4 Brainstorm

Kill condition
3 Cunning wish
3 SCM

Slow the game down
4 FOW
2 Flusterstorm
2 Swan song
2 Remand

So few changes from the initial list:
The counter suite has evolved to include 2 SS instead of 1 remand & 1 fluster.
2 DDT came in to replace 1 Meditate & 1 Impulse.

[SirTylerGalt]

Interesting.

While I understand the reasoning behind not playing fetches in your pre-KTK build (easier to find lands, no shuffle so easier to stack your deck with Impulse / Opt), I think Delve makes fetches necessary. Fetches let you cast DTT on turn 3 to setup the T4 kill. If you don't find lands reliably when playing 6 fetches, I would play 4 Impulse and possibly more cantrips (4 BS + 4 Opt + 1 Peek) to increase early turn velocity, and feed the GY for DTT / SCM. T3 DTT will often find the 4th land and missing combo piece.

Why not play Twincast instead of Flusterstorm / Swan Song? It's insane against counterspells (you just copy the spell they tried to counter and continue the combo chain until you can Remand/replay the original spell or counter their counterspell), and insane against opposing Treasure Cruise / DTT. You can also copy your own Meditate / DTT in matchups where they don't have stack interaction to punish you (risky against counter spells).

[Ralf]

Interesting.

While I understand the reasoning behind not playing fetches in your pre-KTK build (easier to find lands, no shuffle so easier to stack your deck with Impulse / Opt), I think Delve makes fetches necessary. Fetches let you cast DTT on turn 3 to setup the T4 kill. If you don't find lands reliably when playing 6 fetches, I would play 4 Impulse and possibly more cantrips (4 BS + 4 Opt + 1 Peek) to increase early turn velocity, and feed the GY for DTT / SCM. T3 DTT will often find the 4th land and missing combo piece.

Why not play Twincast instead of Flusterstorm / Swan Song? It's insane against counterspells (you just copy the spell they tried to counter and continue the combo chain until you can Remand/replay the original spell or counter their counterspell), and insane against opposing Treasure Cruise / DTT. You can also copy your own Meditate / DTT in matchups where they don't have stack interaction to punish you (risky against counter spells).

I'm not looking for T4 kill nor playing DDT absolutely on T4.
I'm more on the controlish side of solidarity than on the fast combo side of it.
Usually I'm fine with at least 5 islands into play.

DTT is a card that can be used as a setup engine but I do prefer it during the combo turn. It is far more powerful.
Impulse is a setup card rather than an engine because you don't make any card advantage
Meditate is used as a combo engine card rather than a setup one. I do use it as a setup card a lot but this is often when the game went pretty well and I have managed to prevent my opponent from putting any threat into play and I need to refill my hand to prepare the combo turn.

I might be wrong on numbers though. X impulse Y DTT and Z Meditate are factors to be found if you want to solve the solidarity big equation.

[astormbrewing]

I've been gone for a while, but I'm going to be building this deck come December on MTGO. Would be willing to share videos once I get used to the deck again.

[SirTylerGalt]

I'm not looking for T4 kill nor playing DDT absolutely on T4.
I'm more on the controlish side of solidarity than on the fast combo side of it.
Usually I'm fine with at least 5 islands into play.

DTT is a card that can be used as a setup engine but I do prefer it during the combo turn. It is far more powerful.
Impulse is a setup card rather than an engine because you don't make any card advantage
Meditate is used as a combo engine card rather than a setup one. I do use it as a setup card a lot but this is often when the game went pretty well and I have managed to prevent my opponent from putting any threat into play and I need to refill my hand to prepare the combo turn.

I might be wrong on numbers though. X impulse Y DTT and Z Meditate are factors to be found if you want to solve the solidarity big equation.


I didn't explain myself correctly in my previous post. I was not arguing that you should always use DTT as a setup spell. I'm just saying it's helpful when you can play it as a "tutor" for the missing combo pieces the turn before going off. Playing fetchlands increases the odds of doing so.

Also, I'm not arguing that you should replace DTT and Meditate with Impulse. I was saying that if you have trouble making land drops, you should consider playing the full amount of Impulse, and increasing the Peek/Opt count, before considering the impact of fetches thinning lands from your deck.

Instead of cutting business spells like DTT / Meditate, I would remove a few controllish cards and go back to 4 Impulse. Consistency is more important than conditional counterspells and bounce spells.

[Oldsrocket_27]

Nice write up Ralf. I agree that having access to Snapcaster is still worth it, though I'm only sticking with one for now.

This is the list I'm thinking about running at the an upcoming SCG open:

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout

4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Peek
2 Opt
2 Dig Through Time
2 Cunning Wish
1 Twincast

1 Brain Freeze

1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstrorm
2 Remand

6 Fetch
12 Island

SB:
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun’s Zenith
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe Away
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Swan Song
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Twincast
1 Flusterstorm

I'm heavier on Peek simply because I'm not as confident as I want to be yet, so I value the hand information more highly than maybe I should. Otherwise I'd probably bump up the Opts, maybe play a third Dig Through Time, though two has felt about right for me so far. Still considering Hydroblast for the SB, I'd probably look at cutting one or two total of the following: Wipe Away, Twincast, Flusterstorm, Swan Song.

[Oldboy]

Snapcaster Mages and Dig Through Time can be played in the same list in my opinion. You only have to find the right amount of both.

I personally prefer running no Mages to leave my opponent with more dead cards in Game 1, which is supposingly the most important one.
But my testings make me feel, that without Mages consistency decreases, but yet Twincast does a really good job.
As I wrote before, I also don't run Cunning Wishes and I think with DTT it is even smarter to do so.

My current list looks like:

// Lands
11 Islands
04 Misty Rainforest
02 Flooded Strand
01 Polluted Delta

// Instants
04 High Tide
04 Reset
04 Meditate

04 Impulse
04 Brainstorm

04 Force of Will

02 Dig Through Time
02 Turnabout
02 Twincast
02 Brain Freeze

02 Opt
02 Peek

02 Remand

01 Blue Sun's Zenith
01 Snap

01 Repeal
01 Flusterstorm

// Sideboard
02 Rebuild
02 Wipe Away
02 Surgical Extraction
02 Polymorphist's Jest
01 Ravenous Trap
01 Dismember
01 Piracy Charm
01 Slaughter Pact
01 Pact of Negation
02 Mindbreak Trap

2 BF strictly better than 1 BF + 1 Noxious Revival
2 MBT in Sb are replacable by more Pacts, Swan Song, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm or even Envelop.

I'm pondering about a third DTT, but I'm not sure, if I really want it in my opening hand. And it's hard to find the place.
It doesn't help with landdrops, so maybe with 2 the right nummer is certain.
It is the best card, that helps regenerating after discard, so I don't want it to be discarded.
Discarding one combo-piece is better, because DTT usually nets you two of them.

It's good that the deck developes and there are many possibilities to run it. This makes it harder for the opponents to know what cards to expect.
I also agree that with a list like this you don't necessarily have to wait until the very last moment to go off, but that also extends our options.
Finally I want to mention that it feels absolutely great to win Game 3 against OmniTell through 2 resolved Defense Grid and 1 Leyline of Sanctity played through Show and Tell on my own turn thanks to Turnabout and Twincast. :)

[Darkenslight]

Would you guys ever, at any point, consider playing Noxious Revival in a Solidarity list?

And for the Wishless builds, why is there a lack of USZs? (Edit: what I mean is, "is only a singleton USZ enough?")

[Redkid43]

I've found that 2 Blue Sun's is usually the best, one main one side.

[Oldboy]

Would you guys ever, at any point, consider playing Noxious Revival in a Solidarity list?

I wasn't the first to consider playing it, but it was said that it is not strong enough.
Still it has some benefits, I just wanted to test, because I completely cutted Snapcaster Mages.
So if my opponent forced me to discard my two win-conditions, what rarely happens, it was an auto-loss without it.
Milling your own deck to thin it and/or to find a essential card with Revival and at least a cantrip in hand was also a smart play. It's even less mana-intensive as SCM.
Also returning some of the powerful cards during combo with Revival after playing a cantrip is way better than drawing an unknown card from the top.
So I think it's worth considering, but still not strong enough for an 1-of. So there are only few situations, where you entirely need it, but to make sure to have it, then you should probably run more.


And for the Wishless builds, why is there a lack of USZs? (Edit: what I mean is, "is only a singleton USZ enough?")

My matches and testings never made me feel that I need more than one.
Making your opponent draw card(s) instantly is one way of winning vs. lethal on the stack or playing around cards like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
As I said you don't really need to wait for the very last moment to go off, you certainly can win games by only brainfreezing.
Turnabout[/cards) for tapping enemy creatures or postboard [cards]Polymorphist's Jest to reduce the amount of damage for winning with Brain Freeze.
Jest can also be used against multiple resolved hatebears before going off, but then you need at least 5 lands, what isn't impossible, because the clocks usually aren't that fast then.

[SirTylerGalt]

Here are the two versions I'm considering:

1) Snapcaster version:


// Land [18]
12 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

// Business
4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
4 Meditate
2 Dig Through Time
2 Snapcaster Mage

// Cantrips
1 Peek
3 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse

// Protection
4 Force of Will
2 Remand
2 Repeal

// Kill / Toolbox
3 Cunning Wish
1 Brain Freeze

// Sideboard [15]
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Dig Through Time
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Flusterstorm
2 Twincast
1 Mindbreak Trap



2) Snapcaster-less version:


// Land [18]
12 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

// Business
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
4 Meditate
3 Dig Through Time

// Cantrips
2 Peek
3 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse

// Protection
4 Force of Will
3 Remand

// Kill / Toolbox
3 Cunning Wish
1 Brain Freeze

// Sideboard [15]
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Dig Through Time
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Flusterstorm
2 Twincast
1 Mindbreak Trap


(It's -2 SCM -2 Repeal +1 Turnabout +1 DTT + 1 Remand + 1 Peek)

Things I'm debating:
- island/fetchland ratio: 10/8 vs 11/7 vs 12/6. Fetches synergize with brainstorm and DTT, but too many fetches means you will have a harder time finding your 4th and 5th lands... We must also consider life-loss and Stifle
- I don't know if we should use Repeal in the Snapcaster-less build, since it might be useless during the combo chain? But it's just so good to bounce a flipped Delver / Batterskull and cantrip for U! Or bounce a chrome mox in response to Infernal Tutor...
- In the Snapcaster-less version, should we play 4 DTT 3 Meditate main, and exchange the 4th DTT with the sideboarded Meditate post-board (in anticipation of GY hate)?

[Ralf]

Here hare the two versions I'm considering:

Things I'm debating:
- island/fetchland ratio: 10/8 vs 11/7 vs 12/6. Fetches synergize with brainstorm and DTT, but too many fetches means you will have a harder time finding your 4th and 5th lands... We must also consider life-loss and Stifle
- I don't know if we should use Repeal in the Snapcaster-less build, since it might be useless during the combo chain? But it's just so good to bounce a flipped Delver / Batterskull and cantrip for U! Or bounce a chrome mox in response to Infernal Tutor...
- In the Snapcaster-less version, should we play 4 DTT 3 Meditate main, and exchange the 4th DTT with the sideboarded Meditate post-board (in anticipation of GY hate)?

Repeal can also be used during the combo chain. I cannot count how many times I used it on a snapcaster...
I would not overload the deck with DTT. The card is good, but multiple will stick in your hand. Meditate will always be castable on 3 mana.

Sidenotes:
1) without snapcaster, you'll lose more games against Temur Delver (canadian *****).
2) Repeal is MVP against any tempo.

My two cents.

[SirTylerGalt]

Repeal can also be used during the combo chain. I cannot count how many times I used it on a snapcaster...
I would not overload the deck with DTT. The card is good, but multiple will stick in your hand. Meditate will always be castable on 3 mana.


Yes I know you can use it on a Snapcaster. That's why I wrote that I was wondering if we want it in the Snapcaster-less version. In the lists I posted, I put 2 Repeal in the Snapcaster build, and none in the other build. I was wondering if it's still worth it without Snapcaster.

I think you are right, I'll go with 4 Meditate MD and a DTT in the sideboard to wish for when the GY has enough food for Delve.

[Oldsrocket_27]

I'll go with 4 Meditate MD and a DTT in the sideboard to wish for when the GY has enough food for Delve.

How has this been testing for you?

[SirTylerGalt]

How has this been testing for you?

I didn't have time to do much testing yet, online or offline. I'll try to find some time this week to test on Cockatrice, and I'll bring it to a local tournament once I buy DTT (I might wait a little for the prices to drop while packs are opened before buying... should have pre-ordered a playset, but I expected the prices to drop after release).

[feline]

Toying with these cards:
Island
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand
Brainstorm
Meditate
Cunning Wish
Dig Through Time
Force of Will
Flusterstorm
High Tide
Turnabout
Reset
Opt
Impulse
Remand

Purposely trying to avoid Snapcaster Mage & Snap to keep removal dead, Graveyard hate weaker & to not suck up cards from the Delve cost. Though I'm at the same time wanting to abuse High Tide>Snapcaster Mage>Flashback High Tide>Snap targeting Snapcaster Mage>Replay Snapcaster Mage>Flashback Snap>Bounce Snapcaster Mage to the hand. (This chain requires 4 islands in this order to do, but at the end of it the storm is already ridiculous, and on top of that, you have 3 of the 4 Islands untapped, 1 mana floating, & Islands are tapping for 3 mana per.)

Another chain pointed out to me in the post below can do it with 3 Islands. High Tide>Snapcaster Mage>Snap targeting mage>Flashback High Tide>Snapcaster Mage again>Snap targeting mage in hand. This chain leaves you with a high storm count as well, with 2 of the 3 islands untapped & no mana floating.

Also considering:
Repeal
Peek
Mental Note
Thought Scour
Anything else I can think of that's an instant and seems alright.

[SirTylerGalt]

Toying with these cards:
Island
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand
Brainstorm
Meditate
Cunning Wish
Treasure Cruise
Force of Will
Flusterstorm
High Tide
Turnabout
Reset
Opt
Impulse
Remand

Purposely trying to avoid Snapcaster Mage & Snap to keep removal dead, Graveyard hate weaker & to not suck up cards from the Delve cost. Though I'm at the same time wanting to abuse High Tide>Snapcaster Mage>Flashback High Tide>Snap targeting Snapcaster Mage>Replay Snapcaster Mage>Flashback Snap>Bounce Snapcaster Mage to the hand. (This chain requires 4 islands in this order to do, but at the end of it the storm is already ridiculous, and on top of that, you have 3 of the 4 Islands untapped, 1 mana floating, & Islands are tapping for 3 mana per.)

Also considering:
Repeal
Peek
Mental Note
Thought Scour
Anything else I can think of that's an instant and seems alright.

Did you mean Dig Through Time, or do you really prefer the sorcery-speed Treasure Cruise?


Note that you can also do the Snapcaster/Snap chain with 3 Islands, if you go: High Tide > SCM targeting High Tide > Snap on SCM > Flashback High Tide > SCM targeting Snap > Flashback Snap targeting SCM > ...

It also works on turn 2 if you have a Reset: High Tide > Reset > SCM targeting High Tide > Snap on SCM > Flashback High Tide > SCM targeting Snap > Flashback Snap targeting SCM > ...

Once you have 7 storm, you can usually play SCM, respond with Brain Freeze while SCM is on the stack, resolve Brain Freeze, resolve SCM, flashback Brain Freeze for lethal (8 * 3 + 9 * 3 = 51 cards milled).

[feline]

Did you mean Dig Through Time, or do you really prefer the sorcery-speed Treasure Cruise?


Yes I meant Treasure Cruise, thank you, and edited.

[SirTylerGalt]

Yes I meant Treasure Cruise, thank you, and edited.

You're welcome.

What I really like about Snapcaster / Snap chains, is how deterministic they are. For example, with 3 Islands in play, you have a draw-independant kill with High Tide + Snapcaster + Snap + Brain Freeze. It doesn't even need Reset, so you can go off during your own turn.

Of course, Snapcaster / Snap makes you very GY-dependant, and can fizzle if your opponent has targeted removal... That's why I'm not sure I want Snap in a build that plays Dig Through Time.

I'm very excited about Dig Through Time, because it gives us the card advantage / card selection we were sometimes missing. It's great to find the missing combo pieces before going off, and it's also awesome mid-combo.

[feline]

I am going to test the hell out of something. I saw someone playing Solidarity this weekend in SCGWorcester and then saw them doing Dig through Time and right away the gears started running. I wish I could remember the name of him though.

I am hoping Dig through Time actually gives this deck enough of a boost to put it on the map. I don't think Solidarity has ever top 16'ed an SCG Open before.

[Valtrix]

Could the snapcaster/snap combo be put into the sideboard if you're worried about removal? It seems like it definitely gives this deck the potential to combo way faster, and G2 at least people should be siding (non bolt) removal out.

[SirTylerGalt]

Could the snapcaster/snap combo be put into the sideboard if you're worried about removal? It seems like it definitely gives this deck the potential to combo way faster, and G2 at least people should be siding (non bolt) removal out.

You could always play 3-4 Snapcaster maindeck, with a few Snaps in the board to bring against aggro / creature / hatebears / fast matchups once they side out their removal. Only problem: while they side out removal, they might also bring GY hate...

There were a ton of discussions about the Snapcaster / Snap engine when SCM was released. IIRC, benthetenor was a huge proponent of that approach, and wrote a lot of interesting posts about it, if you want to go back in the thread.

That said, with the addition of DTT, I'm not sure I want to play a Snapcaster/Snap engine, because they both compete for the graveyard, and make you more vulnerable to GY hate too... I'd rather play a more controllish build with Remand / Repeal, and use DTT for card advantage and to increase consistency.

Carsten Kotter posted an article on SCG yesterday about an UWR control deck playing 4 DTT and 2 Treasure Cruise. He said that since 4 delve cards worked well, 6 might work too. This made me consider playing 4 DTT maindeck in Solidarity for insane card advantage / consistency. You can usually fire one on turn 3 to setup the combo, then start the combo chain on turn 4/5, and fire a second one. Thoughts?

[Redkid43]

I've been a huge fan of at least some non zero amount of SCM in the deck. I think moving Snap as a wish target and maybe 2 Mages main board would mesh well with a dedicated DDT build.

Here's something really rough. Thoughts as well:
Solidarity draft 1

2 Snapcaster Mage

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout

4 Cunning Wish
3 Dig Through Time
3 Impulse
3 Thought Scour
3 Peek
2 Tolarian Winds
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
12 Island


Sideboard
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain freeze
1 Meditate
1 Dig Through Time
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
1 Cackling Counterpart
1 Words of Wisdom
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ravenous Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Thought Scour seems like the best partner with DDT because it dumps half the Delve cost upon resolution (2 from you and itself after resolution) it can also trip up Countertop and opposing Brainstorms.

I'm trying Tolarian Winds. Could be cute with DDT and as a way to filter out crappy hand in the middle of the combo.

Thoughts?

[SirTylerGalt]

My thoughts:
- why 20 lands instead of 18?
- why no meditate?
- I don't like Tolarian Winds, it's card disadvantage. It was considered a while ago as a Wish target, but IIRC the goal was to play 4 Meditate maindeck and replace the SB Meditate with Tolarian Winds. With DTT, you have even less need for Tolarian Winds.
- not sure about Thought Scour. I like the idea of playing more 1-mana cantrips to feed DTT, but I think I prefer Peek / Opt / Disrupt / Repeal in those slots.
- 4 wish is too much in a build that does not play a High Tide in the SB. I'm even considering going down to 2
- BSZ maindeck is not necessary, you can usually wish for it when you need to cast it. I'd play a 1-off R
Brain Freeze as the win condition

SB:
- Cackling Counterpart is bad. Play Echoing Truth instead. It lets you replay SCM, and has more utility (Zombie/Goblin tokens, bouncing annoying permanents, bouncing both SCM...)
- Words of Wisdom is unnecessary if you have BSZ in your SB
- I don't like Leyline

[Redkid43]

I'm running on about 2 hours sleep and I have back to back 13 hours days of work. Hence no Meditates.

Taking your words of advice I edited the list. I feel way more confident with this one:

Solidarity draft 1

2 Snapcaster Mage

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout

3 Cunning Wish
3 Dig Through Time
3 Impulse
3 Repeal
3 Peek
3 Meditate
3 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island


Sideboard
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain freeze
1 Meditate
1 Dig Through Time
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Repeal
1 Twincast
1 Ravenous Trap
4?

Not sure what the last 4 cards should be. More bullets?

[SirTylerGalt]

I like it a lot more :)

I think the Meditate and DTT in your sideboard are redundant. I would move the 4th Meditate or DTT to the maindeck (not sure which is better), and open up another sideboard slot.

I might want a 4th Impulse and a few Remands, because Brain Freeze > Remand > Brain Freeze is just so good, and I love faking a combo start, then remanding my High Tide when they FoW. Insane CA.

With 2 Snapcaster, the 3rd Turnabout is less important, you could go down to 2.

I would play at least 1 Brain Freeze MD. I don't like the idea that they can extract all my win conditions with a surgical extraction on a discarded Wish...

Some good SB cards to consider:
- 2-3 Surgical Extraction. Wishable GY hate that can be flashbacked with Snapcaster. Very useful against Reanimator (hard matchup).
- 2-3 Flusterstorm. Great against combo / discard / tempo. Also flashbackable. You can even Remand the original copy, once the Storm copies have have countered the given spell.
- 1 Mindbreak Trap. Great against Storm / Affinity / Elves. Also useful when you start comboing, they attempt to counter different spells, then you wish for Mindbreak Trap to remove all their counters from the stack and resolve all your spells.
- Rebuild or Hurkyll's Recall against artifact hate (I think Rebuild was better, but I forgot the reasoning, I think it was possibly related to Chalice @ 2).
- Chain of vapor as a cheap bounce
- I'm not sure about the 4th Repeal in the SB. You already have 3 MD. You might want something that's more of a blowout.

[astormbrewing]

Here is the list I'm currently looking to build on Magic Online this Winter:

1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
3 Dig Through Time
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
2 Opt
2 Remand
1 Repeal
4 Reset
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Turnabout
1 Twincast

8 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Dig Through Time
1 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rebuild
1 Repeal
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout
1 Twincast

Happy to receive feedback. Have been reading and analyzing recent posts since DTT was released.

[Oldsrocket_27]

I don't like the 10fetch/8 land configuration, even with 3 DTT. The life loss does end up mattering, and you don't need to be shuffling that often. Additionally, the tiny fractional amount of thinning fetching they get you isn't always a positive, because as often as you don't want more lands while you combo off, you do want more lands while setting up. I haven't been in love with the idea of repeal in the deck either, but I admit I haven't tested it, mostly because I'm only running a singleton snapcaster. Two snapcasters is what makes only two turnabout feel OK to me, but if you cut back on mages, I'd want a third turnabout. I'm a fan of the 2 cunning wish set up, and maindeck twincast and Brain Freeze. I still favor having a wipe away in the SB, since it allows you to wish and bounce chalice for 2, and helps marginally against countertop decks, though having rebuild halfway fills that role.

A lot of that is nitpicky and based on my preference. There really isn't a single established build for the deck any more, and the metagame you expect can affect how those preferences are shaped quite a bit.

[feline]

In goldfishing, I'm just focusing on the combo so I haven't gotten to the point of worrying about countermagic, I just want to make sure the combo works as a deck. I can worry about the disruption part later. Anyhow, in the first stage of development I have come to these conclusions.

In goldfishing a number of times, I aimed to go off on turn 4 every time, & draw as much of the deck as possible. In doing so, every single time I tested a game, I drew the entire deck every single time. I also was able to get to 4 lands and go off turn 4 almost every single time.

Been running Preordain & Ponder as they are lands 19-26 when you need to search for lands in the first few turns. After the 4th land in hand they start getting combo pieces, since there's no Merchant Scroll, they can also help dig for High Tide before the combo turn, or a draw spell if needed, etc. Anyhow, additional lands can't do that, so I have Non sorcery Preordain & Ponders in the list, there's so many 1 cast cantrips that every single time I got to turn 4, I was always able to delve away 6 cards and cast Dig through Time for 2 mana once I started High Tide'ing and Untapping, etc.

Once you get to the combo turn, lands are dead draws anyway, so I figured I'd at least run preordain & ponder. They also help fill up the graveyard for the Delve, anyhow,
List #1:
Goldfished this:
3 High Tide
3 Reset
3 Turnabout
3 Dig Through Time
3 Meditate
4 Cunning Wish
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
12 Island
Sideboard includes:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Dig through Time
1 Meditate
1 High Tide
1 Reset
1 Turnabout
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away
1 Snap
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
14th slot empty
15th slot empty

When I tested Solidarity out about a year ago, I don't remember the version I tested, but I do remember what issues I was & was not running into.
-The mana was fine, I seemed to never run out of that, that still holds true with this setup, once you get going, it just doesn't stop.
-The card draw however was the issue in the past, I'd always fizzle out. Dig Through Time in my opinion, has completely solved this issue. The card is absolutely awesome in this type of deck. It's basically the Treasure Cruise for combo decks! (I've heard some Show and Tell players talk about it being good on their end as well)
-Storm count is always lethal by the time I got to the end of the deck and couldn't cast any more spells. Brain Freezing for upwards of 70-80 something cards. I never had an issue of "is the storm high enough"
-The mana available at the end of going through the deck however, was an issue under 1 condition, that I had to use Blue Sun's Zenith for the kill instead of Brain Freeze, if I was against an Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn type deck or whatever else. Only a couple times was I able to have enough mana for a Lethal Blue Sun's Zenith. There was the idea of "Brain Freeze for so many spells that it can mill their deck twice over +1, so if they hit Emrakul even as their last card, you can Surgical Extraction it out, then let the remaining Freezes resolve and do their entire deck all over again. But the issue with that was that was that I would have to use 2 Cunning Wishes as a kill, 1 for Brain Freeze, other for Extraction. This could be solved if I main decked 1 Brain Freeze however, and as much as I hate that idea since Brain Freeze is dead until the combo turn, it could be necessary. Games 2 & 3 I will need to have a kill condition in the main anyhow in case of opposing Surgical Extraction against Cunning Wishes.
-4 Cunning Wishes are in this setup because they are used to tutor for a lot, since there's no Merchant Scroll for High Tides as High Tide's # 5-8, I put 1 in the sideboard, though with Dig Through Time, I will probably test for Tides in the main deck.

The changes I am looking at already is maindecking all 4 meditates & all 4 high tides, I'd like to run just 3 cunning wishes but I was using them way too much and the last cunning wish has to be the kill spell if there's none in the main. A maindeck 1 of Brain Freeze is looking more likely at this point. But if I did that to go down to 3 Cunning Wishes, I'd rather just have 4 Cunning Wishes because the last Cunning Wish will always be castable if you've gotten your entire deck.

Anyhow, I am messing around with stuff. The only issue I am uncomfortable with using this build, is that if I go up against an Emrakul or Progenitus type deck, I can't rely on Brain Freeze, and I cannot reliably produce enough mana for a lethal Blue Sun's Zenith. It is usually at most for 30-40 something on average at the end of it all.

-

Hope this helps, Dig through Time has really helped this deck in my opinion. Also, I'm purposely not running the Snap Snapcaster Mage setup because I am actively trying to avoid making opponents removal live & targeted graveyard hate live, like Deathrite Shaman / Surgical Extraction / Swords to Plowshares / Abrupt Decay / Lightning Bolt / etc.

[P-E]

why not run Ravenous Trap in addition to Surgical to avoid Emrakul (Progenitus is not a problem as you just have to USZ him for 2 or number of progenitus+1)

[kombatkiwi]

why not run Ravenous Trap in addition to Surgical to avoid Emrakul (Progenitus is not a problem as you just have to USZ him for 2 or number of progenitus+1)

Brain Freeze mills their library in 3-card chunks so you will never be able to hit all of their Emrakuls with 1 Ravenous Trap, because as soon as one gets flipped over it gets shuffled back along with the rest of their graveyard.

With Extraction as soon as they mill 1 Emrakul you extract all of them and let the remaining Brain Freeze copies mill them out

[feline]

Testing a new list. This time purposely running all instants. Opt is lands 19-22 in the early turns basically. This deck is set more on 2 drops -vs- the onslaught of 1 drop cantrips of the previous list above I tested. Now playing with this:
List #2:
4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Meditate
3 Dig Through Time
4 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
4 Remand
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
12 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
Sideboard
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Dig Through Time
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
11th slot empty
12th slot empty
13th slot empty
14th slot empty
15th slot empty
As far as if I would wish for anything else, I consider the empty slots to be "anything I can think of at the time of wanting to wish" and when I think of something not in the sideboard already, it will take that slot.

-edit-

Question: Can you play Reset at the end of their upkeep or does the phase have to be completely over and into the draw step. Next question, can you play spells before they draw a card at the beginning of their draw step? Thank you.

[Ralf]

-edit-

Question: Can you play Reset at the end of their upkeep or does the phase have to be completely over and into the draw step. Next question, can you play spells before they draw a card at the beginning of their draw step? Thank you.

No. You cannot play "Reset" at the end of their upkeep. Only during/after draw step, once you get priority. Usually, this means no sooner than the end of your opponent's draw step.
Drawing the card of your turn is not something that goes on the stack, so your opponent will pass priority only if he casts an instant during his draw step or at the end of it.

[Holly]

Earliest point of casting reset is in their drawstep and no its not possible to cast a spell in their drawstep before they actually draw their card(s) for the turn.

[Valtrix]

Misdirection is a nice sideboard card in my opinion. As for your question about reset:


504. Draw Step
504.1. First, the active player draws a card. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack.
504.2. Second, any abilities that trigger at the beginning of the draw step and any other abilities that
have triggered go on the stack.
504.3. Third, the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities.

So they always get to draw a card unfortunately. But, you have the potential to combo out at any time during their turn so you can wait to see if they tap out to play anything, or just try to combo them right away in their draw step.

4 Meditate feels a little heavy to me. It's great during the combo turn, but it might be a liability with a full set of 4. Something like Peer Through Depths to setup your combo turn might be slightly better.

Also, Words of Wisdom used to be so sweet for forced draw, but Blue Sun's is just so much better now.

[P-E]

Brain Freeze mills their library in 3-card chunks so you will never be able to hit all of their Emrakuls with 1 Ravenous Trap, because as soon as one gets flipped over it gets shuffled back along with the rest of their graveyard.

With Extraction as soon as they mill 1 Emrakul you extract all of them and let the remaining Brain Freeze copies mill them out

sure i know how brain freeze works and i said "in addition to surgical"
i doubt you can reach enough storm to mill him if emy is at least half of his deck

[Redkid43]

I find that, given the presence of Emrakul in the format (let alone local metas) that Blue Sun-ing them is the cleanest kill and doesn't require such a heavy spell chain like Brain Freeze would. However, at the point where it would be lethal, I feel that both cards could kill. Producing mana will obviously increase storm...and I guess it's your choice then.

I've actually done both. I've milled Emrakul and with his trigger on the stack (my opponent was smart about resolving storm copies) I Blue Suned for the rest of his deck plus a few more for the kill. :)

After crazy work days (I guess this is what it's like to have a real adult job now) I play tested/gold fished my build. I have a good amount of experience playing both Solidarity and High Tide that I felt confident with it...some initial impressions are this:

-DDT is the balls. With less reliance on our graveyard like in SCM/Snap builds and using it more as a means of casting DDT didn't trip me up at all. At the point where I got SCM online, it was just a matter of time to get a few extra mana for a lethal Blue Sun. I, for one, welcome our new Digging overlord.
-3 Wishes felt right. Thanks to those who suggested it :)
-I stress Twincast in the board. I played one game against actuall Time Spiral (which was about as hard as analyzing Wagnerian Opera in college) but Twincasting Time Spiral and then killing them with their copy on the stack is probably a blow out. Your cards say instant and theirs say sorcery.

[feline]

Tested about half a dozen games against the UR Delver deck and lost every single game, the deck is just fast, treasure cruise is ridiculous, and the swiftspear prowess haster is just insane!

Oh you're at 10, lets bolt you for -3, gitaxian probe, ponder, then attack for -7 with delver & swiftspear GGAAMMEE!!

I feel like going against combo decks, ya just halt the combo for long enough. Against slower decks, the longer the game goes the more favored it should be anyway, but this non combo fast deck thing is tough!

[JDK]

Well, as you can see, Snap still has good applications. ;)

I'd like to test more and write a short conclusion, but apparently Wizards and MODO don't want me playing, as they "schedule" their downtimes in a very offensive way for Europeans and me especially.

[Redkid43]

Would Cryptic warrant a spot to wish for in need of tapping out creatures?

[JDK]

Would Cryptic warrant a spot to wish for in need of tapping out creatures?
Welcome to Turnabout.

But yeah, you could also put a Cryptic in there somewhere.

[SirTylerGalt]

Tested about half a dozen games against the UR Delver deck and lost every single game, the deck is just fast, treasure cruise is ridiculous, and the swiftspear prowess haster is just insane!

Oh you're at 10, lets bolt you for -3, gitaxian probe, ponder, then attack for -7 with delver & swiftspear GGAAMMEE!!

I feel like going against combo decks, ya just halt the combo for long enough. Against slower decks, the longer the game goes the more favored it should be anyway, but this non combo fast deck thing is tough!

That's the kind of matchup where Repeal shines. It reads "U: bounce target Insectile Aberration, daw a card.". Or " 1U: bounce target Swiftspear, draw a card.". You can also chump block with Snapcaster.
That said, we might want 1-2 Hydroblast for red decks...

Also, Twincast and Remand are pretty good against Treasure Cruise :) But I think a fast Delver deck is a hard matchup.

Re: Emrakul:
If you don't have enough mana for a BSZ, you can Brain Freeze, mill until the first Emrakul, Remand, Brain Freeze again, mill until the second Emrakul, then BSZ for the rest. Usually, you should mill half their deck, which reduces the amount of mana needed for a lethal BF. If you have Snapcaster in hand, you can flashback Remand a third time to mill until the third Emrakul..

[Ralf]

Tested about half a dozen games against the UR Delver deck and lost every single game, the deck is just fast, treasure cruise is ridiculous, and the swiftspear prowess haster is just insane!

Oh you're at 10, lets bolt you for -3, gitaxian probe, ponder, then attack for -7 with delver & swiftspear GGAAMMEE!!

I feel like going against combo decks, ya just halt the combo for long enough. Against slower decks, the longer the game goes the more favored it should be anyway, but this non combo fast deck thing is tough!

As aforementioned, solidarity players cannot compete with tempo decks without packing some other form of disruption.
Permission only tackles the stack but we NEED to interact with the board.

I suggest you to test including:
1) "X" repeal
2) "X" SCM

Consider playing less than 4 repeal if you don't want to play any number of SCM.

[Redkid43]

Hydroblast is certainly an option.

Also, from what I've seen with UR Cruise is that generally they Cruise to refill. Remanding a cruise blows their resources and gets them stuck with a 8 cost spell that will ultimately do nothing till they refuel it.

It's like Time Walking them, in theory. And as stated before, tempo is our worst matchup.

Repeal is good here.

And I knew about Turnabout :) I was thinking maybe Crytpic as a catch all. Could work, but is costly to set up and they'll probably prepare for it.

[feline]

Attempts with list #3:
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
4 Cunning Wish
4 Meditate
3 Dig through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
12 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
Sideboard
Blue Sun's Zenith
Brain Freeze
Dig through Time
Turnabout
Wipe Away
Snap
Rebuild
Flusterstorm
Pact of Negation
Surgical Extraction
Rewind
Psionic Blast
Misdirection
Ravenous Trap
Psychic Spiral

Played half a dozen games against Sneak and Show, didn't win any of them, wanted to see if I could actually stall them long enough to get enough Islands into play that I could actually blue sun's zenith for lethal once I started comboing and drawing through the whole deck, but I never even made it that far, Oy!

[JDK]

There is no reason to run that many CWishes, as they just tend to produce clumsy hands. Usually you won't even have the time to use them as tutors and setup but just use them to grab the finisher.

[feline]

Every time I've gotten to combo off, I end up casting enough spells, and eventually drawing the entire deck. If I had an extra Cunning Wish at the end of it all, it would actually help to get another untap effect in case I had to do blue sun's zenith -over- brain freeze against Emrakul & friends.

[Oldboy]

I prefer running no Cunning Wish. The fizzle-rate is still quite low once comboing and for me it's harder to play a land every turn than finding my combo pieces.
I also suggest a split of Remand and Twincast.
Twincasting your own spells (i.e. High Tide, Dig Through Time, Meditate or even Turnabout, if you have to go through Defense Grid) feels very good.
But Twincast on opposing Treasure Cruise or DTT feels even better! Of cause they can work as a Counterspell in counterwars.
Still I'm a big fan of Remand, so was still running 1-2 copies in a list with 3 Snapcaster Mages. As I wrote a few pages before I also like to leave the opponent with dead cards, so I decided to cut SCM.
Nevertheless I agree with some of the previous posts, that Repeal and Snap have their warrant, so I run 1 of each.
I prefer 7 Untappers, so Snap also fills this role and is better than Repeal on a resolved Ethersworn Canonist and of course Gaddock Teeg, which could see more play with these Delve-cards around.
In addition to these hatecards I run a singleton Flusterstorm. We usually see so much cards of our deck before comboing that it's not impossible to find it.
Until now, I run only 2 copies of DTT, but I consider running a third one. But it is not that easy to cast them before combo, so I don't want 2 of them in hand and in combo I prefer twincasting it.

After all my opinions, I really want to know, how it feels runing no Peek. Do you think that you don't care about this information, because of your experience or is Opt basically the better card?
I can imagine lists without them, because if time has expired, you have to try your combo and fight through counters the smartest way. Don't know if you know the opposing hand helps this much.
In case of death and taxes and an untapped Aether Vial, it could help to be prepared, but still if time has expired it could be that there is no difference.
You can say that Peek tells you about the time you will probably have. Perhaps this information is overrated. Just wondering...
At least for someone, who doesn't want to wait to the very last moment, he is able to see if the coast is clear.

[JDK]

I don't even understand what you are trying to say. :eyebrow:

Why would you need a counterspell (from the SB) once you reach lethal?

[feline]

List #4: This list was actually able to get some wins in!
3 High Tide
3 Turnabout
3 Reset
3 Meditate
3 Dig through Time
4 Cunning Wish
4 Impulse
4 Remand
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
12 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
-sideboard-
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 High Tide
1 Turnabout
1 Reset
1 Meditate
1 Dig through Time
1 Snap
1 Wipe away
1 Rebuild
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
1 Misdirection
1 Psionic Blast

After reading the previous posts, I now want to mess around with Twincast over Remand, getting the first 2 High Tides resolved as soon as possible seems important, on top of that you can copy, a counter spell when needed, a draw spell and, well, anything! Ty for bringing up Twincast.

-also- Flusterstorming for a few, then Remanding the original copy back to hand, is dumb, ha ha!

[Seraphus]

12 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
1 Turnabout
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
1 Brain Freeze
2 Opt
3 Peek
1 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Cunning Wish
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 3 Rebuild
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 (?) Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Wipe Away (?)
SB: 1 Brain Freeze

[Redkid43]

I've seen people on the Split Decision train. I guess it's a redundant copy of Twincast?

And Feline...maybe a 2-2 split with Remand and Twincast could be okay? I happen to really like your list...the High Tide in the side and a 4th Wish is a tried and true tactic, although I'm not a big fan. Something about running 4 High Tides main seems right to me, but I'm not as seasoned as some pilots with the deck.

Twincasting a Cruise must be the best.

[feline]

I'd prefer 4 Tides in the main but right now I'm abusing the hell out of Cunning Wish, making it the 4th, 5th, 6th, & 7th High Tide when needed, or the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th untap effect when needed (Reset & Turnabout), or the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th big draw spell when needed (Dig through Time & Cunning Wish)

I'm just testing stuff out basically, nothing is in stone in such an early stage of development, but I'm set on the 75 for the next hour or two which is noted above as List #4.

[Redkid43]

Could be interesting to see if it works. I think given how much the deck wants cheap untap effects playing 4 Resets and 4 Tides could be a must. But Development Hell is called that because it's not a big and happy place filled with lollipops and rainbows and Magical Xmas land hands that ensure turn 4 wins.


Also, what happens if you get blown out by errant discard and removal like Extirpate and loose your Cunning Wishes? :frown:

[feline]

Could be interesting to see if it works. I think given how much the deck wants cheap untap effects playing 4 Resets and 4 Tides could be a must. But Development Hell is called that because it's not a big and happy place filled with lollipops and rainbows and Magical Xmas land hands that ensure turn 4 wins.


Also, what happens if you get blown out by errant discard and removal like Extirpate and loose your Cunning Wishes? :frown:

I will have to worry about that if I decide to settle on this list. I imagine I would do what I do in Spiral Tide, side in a kill condition for games 2/3 in case that happens. Since every time I am going off, I eventually draw / dig through my entire fricking deck which is awesome and fun as heck to do, I know I'd see the kill condition after enough digs & impulses & etc are cast.

[Ralf]

12 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
1 Turnabout
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
1 Brain Freeze
2 Opt
3 Peek
1 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Cunning Wish
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 3 Rebuild
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 (?) Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Wipe Away (?)
SB: 1 Brain Freeze

Ah. THAT list !
You are a step ahead of what I was thinking about cutting entirely "impulse".
That would be my next step.
Although 2 Pact of Negation ?

[Valtrix]

Feline, in your testing, what turn are you winning on generally?

[feline]

Feline, in your testing, what turn are you winning on generally?

in goldfishing I've been going off as soon as I hit 4 islands in play, which is usually turn 4.

In actual playing, it depended on the deck I was against. UR Delver just kills me so fast I don't even get the chance to combo off properly half the time.

Against stoneblade & Shardless BUG (If anyone is playing Shardless anymore anyhow) I was able to wait forever and then go off like turn 6 or 7 or whenever I had to and it was a lot easier to go nuts. Against combo If I can stop them from comboing early, I can go off later in response to them attempting another lethal combo or whatever I feel I need to pull the trigger on. Other times against combo, they just get you first. That's combo vs combo for ya sometimes.

[lexluthor]

12 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
1 Turnabout
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
1 Brain Freeze
2 Opt
3 Peek
1 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Cunning Wish
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 3 Rebuild
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 (?) Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Wipe Away (?)
SB: 1 Brain Freeze

Hi Seraphus!
Are you tested Thought Scour in place Opt/ Peek ? I love this card with Dig Throught Time besides improving their brainstorm =)
Worth the test !!

[amalek0]

No. You cannot play "Reset" at the end of their upkeep. Only during/after draw step, once you get priority. Usually, this means no sooner than the end of your opponent's draw step.
Drawing the card of your turn is not something that goes on the stack, so your opponent will pass priority only if he casts an instant during his draw step or at the end of it.

False, your opponent WILL pass priority after their draw step regardless. You can in fact go off during their draw step after they draw their card for the turn. That is in fact the earliest time you can go off with reset.

[amalek0]

I'd prefer 4 Tides in the main but right now I'm abusing the hell out of Cunning Wish, making it the 4th, 5th, 6th, & 7th High Tide when needed, or the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th untap effect when needed (Reset & Turnabout), or the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th big draw spell when needed (Dig through Time & Cunning Wish)

I'm just testing stuff out basically, nothing is in stone in such an early stage of development, but I'm set on the 75 for the next hour or two which is noted above as List #4.

I look forward to you breaking an open later on this season with solidarity! Deck needs to reclaim its spot as the boogyman of the format. Maybe get Gerhardt back into legacy, I know people see him once in a blue moon over at curio cavern.

[JDK]

False, your opponent WILL pass priority after their draw step regardless. You can in fact go off during their draw step after they draw their card for the turn. That is in fact the earliest time you can go off with reset.

That's what he said. Opponent draws, triggers go on the stack, opponent gets priority. When he passes, you get to do shit. Resolve/repeat. End of draw step.


504. Draw Step

504.1. First, the active player draws a card. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.

504.2. Second, any abilities that trigger at the beginning of the draw step and any other abilities that have triggered go on the stack.

504.3. Third, the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities.

[Redkid43]

Considering the fact that the format seems to be slowing down thanks to Miracles I feel as though Solidarity could be a great call. However, that deck plays CounterTop and that's a problem. But Wipe Away...

Took my list for a quick jaunt last night after passing out from job training for new job. I was overtired so piloting Solidarity at that point was like doing brain surgery for me. But I happened to snag a win off of Show and Tell. Was pretty funny: he slams Sneak Attack and I slam my forth Island-he activates Sneak Attack for Emrakul and I go off and kill him with Annihilator on the stack. Achievement unlocked.

He was so confident in the win that he brainstormed back a force the turn before he casted Show and Tell.

[feline]

I'm just going to list everything that I can even think of right now that could possibly be ran in one form or another. I will probably go back to this post & add more to it as I go along looking for stuff.

Island
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand
Misty Rainforest
Scalding Tarn
-
High Tide
Reset
Turnabout
Cunning Wish
Meditate
Dig through Time
Force of Will
Flusterstorm
Remand
Repeal
Impulse
Brainstorm
Opt
Peek
Thought Scour
Mental Note
Snapcaster Mage
Snap
Peer through Depths
Twincast
Blue Sun's Zenith
Brain Freeze
Rebuild
Hurkyl's Recall
Wipe Away
Disrupt
Psionic Blast
Misdirection
Pact of Negation
Surgical Extraction
Ravenous Trap

[Valtrix]

I've always been interested in Solidarity. When I first got into Magic the friend who introduced me to Legacy had Solidarity together and I thought it was the coolest deck in the world. I've been fishing some games recently with Dig Through Time, and this card has really resparked my interest in this deck. Plus, Puca Trade can let me obtain the pieces for almost no cost to myself, so I think I'm going to put this deck together. For now, this is what I will be testing:

4 Brainstorm
4 Reset
1 Brain Freeze
4 Remand
4 Impulse
7 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Dig Through Time
4 High Tide
3 Force of Will
3 Peer Through Depths
3 Cunning Wish
4 Opt
1 Swan Song
2 Meditate
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 1 Words of Wisdom
SB: 1 Rushing River
SB: 3 Swan Song
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith

I'm really not sure about the wishboard as I need to get some actual games in still. I really do like the 3 force/1 swan song in the main with the 4th force in the board. This lets me wish for a counterspell if I really need it, and a lot of times I feel like the extra card is pretty brutal sometimes. I think the biggest issue I have while fishing right now is to actually get a kill on turn 4. I can normally get a brainfreeze for a enough, but without BSZ or words of wisdom it's hard to actually get the kill. I really like how dig through time and peer through depths work with each other. Since they don't shuffle this gives me a very deterministic way to dig through my deck for combo pieces. Unfortunately impulse shuffles, but alas... Obviously I'm not an expert with these types of decks of course, so the list is likely going to fluctuate quite a bit.

[RingoDeathStarr]

Unfortunately impulse shuffles, but alas... Obviously I'm not an expert with these types of decks of course, so the list is likely going to fluctuate quite a bit.

Actually, Impulse doesn't shuffle! Check the non-Visions printing and oracle text :-)

[Redkid43]

I actually didn't know there was an errata until I looked at the new printing. I've been playing with the Visions ones forever.

Jeez.

[SirTylerGalt]

I've always been interested in Solidarity. When I first got into Magic the friend who introduced me to Legacy had Solidarity together and I thought it was the coolest deck in the world. I've been fishing some games recently with Dig Through Time, and this card has really resparked my interest in this deck. Plus, Puca Trade can let me obtain the pieces for almost no cost to myself, so I think I'm going to put this deck together. For now, this is what I will be testing:

4 Brainstorm
4 Reset
1 Brain Freeze
4 Remand
4 Impulse
7 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Dig Through Time
4 High Tide
3 Force of Will
3 Peer Through Depths
3 Cunning Wish
4 Opt
1 Swan Song
2 Meditate
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 1 Words of Wisdom
SB: 1 Rushing River
SB: 3 Swan Song
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith

I'm really not sure about the wishboard as I need to get some actual games in still. I really do like the 3 force/1 swan song in the main with the 4th force in the board. This lets me wish for a counterspell if I really need it, and a lot of times I feel like the extra card is pretty brutal sometimes. I think the biggest issue I have while fishing right now is to actually get a kill on turn 4. I can normally get a brainfreeze for a enough, but without BSZ or words of wisdom it's hard to actually get the kill. I really like how dig through time and peer through depths work with each other. Since they don't shuffle this gives me a very deterministic way to dig through my deck for combo pieces. Unfortunately impulse shuffles, but alas... Obviously I'm not an expert with these types of decks of course, so the list is likely going to fluctuate quite a bit.

I disagree about playing 12 fetches / 7 islands. I think you need at least 10 islands to maximize your chance of making your early land drops, and it's also very useful if you can have 8-10 islands in play when going off against control.

If you really want to feed your GY for delve, play more cantrips: Opt, Peek, Disrupt, Repeal...

I don't like Peer Through Depths. Some people used to play Peer Through Depths in older Solidarity lists, and it was already questionable at the time... Now that we have DTT, we shouldn't need it.

2 Meditate is not enough, you should play 3. Play the 3rd Meditate before Peer Through Depths.

Also, you really want 2-3 Turnabout in addition to Reset, to ensure you can find an untapper when starting the combo.

Words of Wisdom is redundant with BSZ. You'll usually have 4 mana for BSZ when you would go for Words of Wisdom to finish your opponent.

[Valtrix]

Woah! That's really great to know. That makes a huge difference for digging to a spell piece I need. It also means that I don't have instant speed shuffle so I need to be more careful.

Thanks for the feedback about my list. I'm not completely certain what you mean about running so many fetches. That by too many fetching I thin my chances of hitting those islands earlier? (Stifle is not being played much, so I don't consider that a big issue.) The actual thinning for early landdrops is very minor, but it does matter a lot later when you want to combo off. I agree that 7 actual islands is a bit low though, and I've seen that in the games I've been playing. I will bump this up a bit but I still think at least 10 fetches for Dig is ideal.

Peer through depths has been very nice for me. I didn't know about the errata on Impulse though, so I was using it in combination with dig through time to look through a very large number of my deck. Knowing about the impulse errata makes a big difference now (in my opinon). I agree that peer is probably the weakest card though. The third meditate will for sure be used. I had been starting with a low number, but after having to wish for it all the time I realized how crucial it was.

[Seraphus]

Hi Seraphus!
Are you tested Thought Scour in place Opt/ Peek ? I love this card with Dig Throught Time besides improving their brainstorm =)
Worth the test !!

Thought Scour has the element of unpredictability: you do it on you and you run the risk of hitting cards that might be necessary, you hit your op with it and you might giving him something he wants, the most clear example: pumping goyfs...

So solidarity big secret is simplicity: as the most or one of the most hard decks to pilot you need to keep it in shape and minimize the obligation of take choices. I prefer less choices (opt) and more interaction/information (peek).

Any more questions shoot ;)

[Valtrix]

Yes, I think thought scour is not very good. It can improve digs, but you might ditch a reset or high tide which is really bad. Opt will do much better at helping you fix. I'm not sure how much of a fan of peek I am. The information is nice, I guess, but more often than not I think just sculpting a better hand is the way to go. Though I just started practicing this deck, I was using peeks at first but they just weren't that useful since usually I'd want to wait as long as possible to combo off anyway.

For dig through time I've been running 11 fetches. This has been great because it's set me up for a turn three dig through time into turn four wins that just would not have been possible otherwise. (Fetch, fetch, fetch + 2 spells is 5 cards in the yard -- Tap 3 mana on turn 3 to cast dig.) I really don't understand the aversion to fetches in general. Given that you cycle through most of your deck when comboing off, the thining is a very real advantage here. Not having to sift through 1-2 extra islands definitely does have the potential to matter when trying to start a combo chain.

Something I've been wondering about is the number of remands. Is 4 ideal? It's really one of the few cards which makes sense in this deck and allows us to slow our opponent down, but sometimes I feel like with 4 it can clutter up my draws. I don't have enough experience yet to know how many to run, but I want 3 or 4 I think for sure.

Another question I'm wondering about is what the "fixed" sideboard cards should be. From what I gather it seems that blue sun's zenith, turnabout, surgical extraction, meditate, and wipe away are must haves. What else is a "must-have" do you guys think?

[JDK]

Another question I'm wondering about is what the "fixed" sideboard cards should be. From what I gather it seems that blue sun's zenith, turnabout, surgical extraction, meditate, and wipe away are must haves. What else is a "must-have" do you guys think?
Play. Meditate. In. The. Maindeck. All of them.

Since Solidarity has so much weaker setup and lacks Time Spiral compared to Spiral Tide you need to maximize your draws. Everytime you go off you want Meditate. As many as you can get. Not being able to draw more cards is the fizzle reason #1 (at least in my experience).

[astormbrewing]

Play. Meditate. In. The. Maindeck. All of them.

Since Solidarity has so much weaker setup and lacks Time Spiral compared to Spiral Tide you need to maximize your draws. Everytime you go off you want Meditate. As many as you can get. Not being able to draw more cards is the fizzle reason #1 (at least in my experience).

I miss the feeling of targeting Meditate with Snapcaster Mage's triggered ability.

Can't wait until I build this on MTGO in December.

[Valtrix]

I haven't really felt the need for the 4th meditate in the main in testing, and I've had to wish for the sideboard copy in several games. I really only like one in hand when going off anyway because I want to try and stock up the rest of my hand with protection or extra high tides or resets. It's so easy to chain your spells with dig/impulses/etc once you get going.

Also, I had a very amusing set versus UR landstill today. I won, but barely. Game three was intense:

We made one giant stack of spells:
High tide -> REB
High Tide -> Counterspell
High Tide -> Pyroblast
Tap lands, cast reset -> Spell Snare
Reset again -> Force of will
He was now tapped out and down to 1 card so I cast mindbreak trap for free on all of his stuff.
Resolve all my spells, play a meditate with a ton of mana available and get the win.

How do people feel about splashes? Is there any reason? I don't like having vulnerability to wasteland at all and I'm not sure any color actually offers us something we actually need. White offers Silence, although I think Flusterstorm seems to just feel that type of role better. Green offers Krosan Grip, but I think there are other tools to deal with balance. Wipe Away or Swan song coming to mind. I'm not sure black or red actually offer any good instants for us.

[SirTylerGalt]

Possible Snapcaster build:


// Land [18]
12 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

// Business [18]
4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
4 Meditate
2 Dig Through Time
2 Snapcaster Mage

// Cantrips [13]
2 Peek
3 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse

// Protection [8]
4 Force of Will
2 Remand
2 Repeal

// Kill / Toolbox [3]
2 Cunning Wish
1 Brain Freeze

// Sideboard [15]
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Dig Through Time
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Twincast


Note the number of cantrips to feed the GY for DTT (3 Opt, 2 Peek, 2 Repeal). I like having at least 1 Brain Freeze MD, because I don't want to lose my win condition if my Cunning Wish get extracted... I'd like to have 3-4 MD Brain Freeze post board against control decks and Miracles (to overpower counterspells / CB lock), but not sure how to fit them.

[Seraphus]

Ah. THAT list !
You are a step ahead of what I was thinking about cutting entirely "impulse".
That would be my next step.
Although 2 Pact of Negation ?

what do you want to counter that isn't part of a counter war? if it is a hate-bearers like thalia and etc you won't cause they either have vial or the uncounterable land; if it is any creature to slow down your op you have snap+repeal+remand; FoW is not "snapcasterable" pact is, so does flusterstorm btw. Look at my sb it's pretty ready to deal with permanents plus it offers you a great deal of protection with those MB traps. I find the deck very competent in facing the metagame as it is atm...

[feline]

Went 3-6 at the SCGMinneapolis this weekend playing for the first time ever, not Spiral Tide. Solidarity is too much fun. Won in response to Treasure Cruise, Ponder, Cabal Therapy, Jace Brainstorm, Combat phase, etc.

Lost more than I expected to due to fizzling, or not getting storm high enough before running out of card draw, which I did not expect to happen as much. I need to practice with the deck more as I feel that part was fixable after most "fizzles"

Lost once to 2 land in play, lost another time to 7 lands in play, lost another time to turn 2 Iona. Stuff like that was pretty much stuff I couldn't change from my side of the table.

Considering replacing the 2 Maindeck Remand with 2 Snapcaster Mage, since Snapcaster Mage can do the same thing Remand can do as far as "recasting" a spell goes, but can pick any card in the Graveyard -vs- only a spell currently on the stack.

Added the 4th Turnabout from the sideboard back to the maindeck, and the 4th Meditate from the sideboard back to the maindeck before I registered the deck. Realizing 2 of my Wishes would almost always get High Tide & Brain Freeze, there's no way I'd be able to wish for all 4 of those other spells. So kept the cheaper untap effect (reset) and the 4th Dig through Time in the sideboard. Also registered 2 Brain Freeze in the sideboard, since games 2 & 3 I'd want a copy in the maindeck in case of Extraction hitting wishes.

Will post more later, it's late enough for sleep. But I'm not done messing around with this, I own 8 resets just in case. *crosses fingers*

[Redkid43]

Good results! Solidarity is unforgiving in terms with fizzles and stamina. One of the hardest decisions I've faced with Solidarity is when to stop the combo for fear of fizzling out. Even with all the correct sequencing and spell chains you are totally at the mercy of your shuffling and Brainstorm skills.

And that's nothing with regards to your play skills for the combo. I tested last night and had the worst Impulse ever: 4 Islands with little gas left in my hand.

But congrats on your results Feline. I imagine that winning in responce to Cruise was the best feeling in the world. Do you feel as though your fizzles would have been wins?

[Valtrix]

Below are some random thoughts, and for reference I have included the list that I've been testing:

//19 lands
8 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

//41 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Reset
1 Brain Freeze
4 Remand
4 Impulse
4 Dig Through Time
4 High Tide
3 Force of Will
2 Peer Through Depths
3 Cunning Wish
4 Opt
1 Swan Song
3 Meditate
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 3 Swan Song
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Free

I'm not sure that I like snapcaster mage. While it can rebuy a spell, I'm more concerned with the fact that he doesn't help us setup very well. I think we have plenty of cards to help us during our combo, but making sure we have the proper cards in.

For clarification on "fizzling," do you mean that once you've resolved a tide + an untap effect + draw effect that you can't continue to combo? I've been playing a very heavy cantrip version and I've had almost no issues with fizzling. As long as I can resolve a high tide + reset + draw spell I tend to be in a good spot.

I really think that this deck wants to play 4 dig through times in the main. This spell is just too invaluable for setting up in my opinion. Meditate is good when comboing, but it does basically nothing when you're trying to setup the combo. With a large number of fetchlands Dig lets you setup some very powerful turn 4 combos by going going fetch -> cantrip, fetch -> cantrip, fetch -> dig through time. I've found turn 3 digs to be very powerful for us.

Is a high tide in the board worthwhile? I'm really not sure if a high tide belongs in the board to be gotten with cunning wish or not. I don't particularly enjoy casting cunning wish, but it is a necessary evil at times. I figure that since I have good options for protection and card draw and untap that I should leave the 4 tides in the main and just prioritize getting those. Of course, against discard decks it's probably necessary to have at least one reset and one high tide in the sideboard.

I think 4 force of will in the main is too many. My goal is to sculpt a hand that can fight through two counterspells, and if you run too many forces you just can't afford to do that. High tide + reset + double force + double blue card is basically your whole hand already. Because Counterbalance is pretty popular, I think that Swan Song is a good card to run in combination with force of will. Swan + force is a very nice protection suite to go off with. I've been running 3 force/1 swan, but I think I will move to 2 force/2 swan.

How many cantrips to run? It's a very tricky balance to run protection + mana + real draw + cantrips. I like a huge amount of cantrips in order to sculpt a hand with the right balance of spells since I feel like going off sometimes requires a delicate balance of cards. I think if you stock too much up on business or protection or card draw you can have trouble sculpting the proper hand.

[Oldsrocket_27]

Also played at SCG Minneapolis, went 3-5 then dropped to run moral support for a friend during his win-and-in (sadly, his dredges were terrible once he got on camera). Feline is definitely right about fizzling. It cost me matches, including games 1 and 3 against burn in r8, when I should have been able to win easily with 5 and 7 lands in play, though on the other side of luck, I won the first game of my 2nd MUD stax match right through a lodestone golem, so the power is definitely there if you draw well. It's also worth noting that I absolutely punted one match, and very likely punted another. I only ran 2 DTT and 2 Cunning Wish in the main, and I know I want to up my count of one of the two, probably cutting either my single Snapcaster or Twincast, since they were the cards that I most often found dead in hand- they were often just less mana efficient ways of doing things my hand could already do anyway. Of the two, I'm more inclined to cut Snapcaster, since it costs more to get double spells out of him, even though he lets you do it at a more convenient time. For me the utility of being able to twincast my opponent's spells is greater. Getting a treasure cruise or countering a force of will with it is a great feeling.

This was the list I ran:

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
2 Cunning Wish
4 Meditate
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
1 Peek
3 Opt
2 Remand
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstrorm
2 Dig Through Time
1 Twincast

6 Fetch
12 Island

SB:
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun’s Zenith
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Twincast
1 Hydroblast
2 Repeal

It's worth noting that I ran a Hydroblast instead of a third Flusterstorm in the SB because I was borrowing flusterstorms and my guy only had two spare. The Hydroblast was surprisingly OK, though, and I think I'm going to keep it in. I also got bit pretty hard for running Hyrkul's instead of Rebuild in my first MUD stax match, since it prevented my from wishing my way out of chalices on 1 and 2. I hadn't expected to run into that matchup at all, and I like Hurkyl's a little better against Miracles, which I never saw (probably because I was at bottom tables), and I'm not sure if I want to make that switch or not. I never ran into a situation where I wanted Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor, or my grave hate.

[JDK]

Well, your lists deliberately increase the chance of fizzling by running more Cunning Wishes/Counters and less Snapcasters. Even though I don't run the full playset of SCM anymore, I still get to flashback crucial Snaps, Meditates, Resets and whatnot to keep me going.

[Redkid43]

I did about 3 hours of intense play testing with my version. Here are some conclusions I've made:

-I think 3 Wish is the magic number. Never once did drawing it I wanted it to be something else, like more draw or untaps. In the other hand, if I drew another spell I never really wanted it to be Wish. I'm content with 3. No more, no less.
-DDT is the nuts. I think in the 15 times I cast it 10 of those times I hit Reset plus a draw spell like Meditate. Even Wishing for it was awesome.
-SCM was not missed by me. All it really did was cause me to durdle even more with Snap. I'm considering cutting it entirely or just possibly 1 and adding another spell...not sure which one. All it did was add storm when Brain Freeze-Remand-Brain Free is way cleaner.

This came up against 12 Post. I went all Feline on him and showed off. He was shit talking me the whole time so I went off:
Brain Freeze with Storm of 11, storm trigger on the stack, hold priority, cast Remand with 25 mana in pool, counter the card copy of Brain Freeze. Still with priority, cast Cunning Wish for Ravenous Trap, still holding priority, Snapcaster Mage flashing back Remand, cast Brain Freeze for a storm of 14, storm trigger on the stack, hold priority and cast Remand again on the card copy of Brain Freeze. So that is a total of 25 storm triggers with 15 mana up.

Oh look eldrazi. Ravenous Trap your graveyard. Then I’ll Blue Sun you for 12. Blue Sun you for 12.

He had no deck and the remainder of his deck was drawn.

[JDK]

Or you could go the more efficient route and just use consecutive Brain Freezes in Response to Shuffle-Triggers. This way you would most likely not need to Cunning Wish for Ravenous trap while also using a smaller BSZ.

[Valtrix]

Also, has anybody tested Clique in this deck? I really like the idea of proactive disruption, the information, and the body seems relevant enough to buy time against more aggressive decks. I also like that it's something we can play ahead of time and then combo off with 7 other cards. Sometimes I feel like I wish I could have 8 or 9 cards for comboing off, and Clique almost is like that. I know three mana is harsh though. I'd imagine that since nobody is running it that it probably didn't test so well, but who knows...

[endqwerty]

Feline said simething about liking Cliques but not sure about where. I believe its in the side. The thing I didnt like is it doesn't help the combo so ifnit buys enough time to consistently get to the combo then I suppose it's worth it.

[benthetenor]

Dig Through Time has piqued my interest in this deck enough to break my silence. This is a theoretical list, but one which I think should be solid:

10 Island
8 Fetchlands

4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
3 Peek
2 Repeal
4 High Tide
1 Snap
4 Reset
2 Brain Freeze
2 Cunning Wish
4 Meditate
2 Dig Through Time
2 Turnabout
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
1 Dig Through Time
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
11 other cards

The theory behind this is that Dig Through Time can largely take up the function of Impulse, and without Impulse, adding in a larger number of 1-mana cantrips increases the chances of just burning through the deck by going turn 1 cantrip, turn 2 double cantrip, turn 3 snapcaster cantrip, and the increased velocity of that should ensure quicker Dig Through Times and more efficient land drops. Again, I don't know that this is definitely the correct list (I don't have a whole lot of games with it yet) but the theory is pretty sound.

To Feline and anyone who is fizzling a lot: the only cure to that is lots of practice, but one thing that will absolutely increase fizzling is removing Snapcaster Mages and Brain Freeze, since you lose your ability to Brain Freeze yourself to ensure you do not fizzle. Adding in counterspells beyond the first four is also another good way to increase your fizzle rate. Given that you can respond to absolutely everything, the need to counter a spell is much lower than it is in any other combo deck since you have extreme flexibility to outplay enemy counterspells.

[Valtrix]

But counterspells don't really help you while comboing either. The benefit of Clique though is that it gives you knowledge about their hand, can deal with a problematic card, and is a speed bump effectively buying you at least a turn against more aggressive decks. Another thing is nice is that it seems like one of the few ways we have to "extend our hand" in the sense that you can cast clique and then combo off next turn with a full grip still.

[RingoDeathStarr]

In case y'all aren't aware, Joe Lossett streamed with this deck last night, and is streaming with it right now as well.

[feline]

Yea I definitely know that part of the reason I was fizzling was because I was in unfamiliar territory and I very much felt that if I had a lot more practice with the deck, I would have fizzled less.

[Redkid43]

Watching Joe last night play the deck was enlightening. If I recall, he was on the 4 Wish/3 High Tide main deck plan, which was okay. He started off 2-0 in the daily, but lost a heartbreaker to Burn splashing blue for Cruise when a crucial Meditate in game 3 failed to get him a High Tide. Part of me will calk it up to the shuffler, but I feel like if he was sporting 4 main this wouldn't happen.

He also reconfirmed with me that his sideboard Dig should probably Meditate.

Going forward, seeing his build work was nice and having someone (plus the chat...who was pretty confused as to why he wasn't playing Time Spiral in High Tide after Joe said "this is Reset High Tide, all instants") was helpful and hearing a knowledgable player talk through various decision trees helped.

I didn't get a chance too see round 4, Joe finished his match well before time in round and I was fading anyways.

[H]

I am definitely looking to try out this deck in the near future, once I get my last Reset in (me of yesteryear decided to buy only 3 for some reason).

It would seem to me that this deck might be well positioned if the meta does shift to a greater focus on gravehate/UR Delver/Swiftspear continues to be a highly played deck. I can easily this deck capitalizing on opponents playing 3/4 spells in a turn to trigger Swiftspear/Pyromancer and then just winning in the attack step, piggybacking on their own Storm count.

I have no results but wouldn't maximizing on Snapcasters allow your opponent another axis on which to fight you (removal/gravehate)? I have the same thought about maximizing on Delve spells. No doubt some non-zero number is correct, but I will try to test different configurations once I get my last Reset.

[benthetenor]

Yea I definitely know that part of the reason I was fizzling was because I was in unfamiliar territory and I very much felt that if I had a lot more practice with the deck, I would have fizzled less.

I know you probably knew about practice being important, with this deck far, far more than any other in the format. The meat of my point is that some of the changes you made to the deck are also adding variance to your games. I would also highly recommend against running 3 High Tide main, as it slows the deck down unnecessarily and Cunning Wish is an awkward draw mid-combo.

I do think that, as good as Dig Through Time is (and it certainly is good), this deck has never been lacking for strong draw spells. The thing that has always held it back is lack of speed and the ability to meaningfully interact with the opponents, as well as the possibility of just bricking off on the last draw spell. The first and last points were largely fixed with Snapcaster Mage, since having Snapcaster Mage means that you can run Snap if you want to to increase the clock, as well as other bounce spells without the fear of them turning into dead draws mid-combo, and being able to double whatever the scarce resource is did incredible things to add consistency to the deck. But meaningful interaction has been the trouble in the last few years. This was a very strong deck when all of our interactions were on the stack, and as creatures became stronger, it became more difficult to slow down the opponent enough to make a difference. Dig Through Time helps the deck, but so far I haven't found the deck to be significantly stronger or more consistent than it was without, and I think the reason is because we're still under a lot of pressure from strong permanents like Delver of Secrets and Counterbalance and Meddling Mage, while now adding in Young Pyromancer and Monastery Swiftspear as significant threats.

All that being said, I can easily see a world in the very near future where Treasure Cruise is banned but Dig Through Time is not, which could do a lot to increase this deck's stead in the metagame.

As for graveyard/creature hate being relevant with Snapcaster Mage and/or Snap, it has never really been the case. Outside of Rest in Peace/Leyline of the Void/Extirpate, graveyard hate can be responded to. Creature removal even moreso since pretty much no one plays Sudden Shock. Aside from those few cards, which probably should not be boarded in against us since they are only marginally effective, all of the hate on those axis can be played around and out-played, either from careful timing coming from well-informed play (Peek), or by brute-forcing your way through whatever the issue is. Nothing on the stack resolves until we say it does. That is, and always will be, THE reason to play this deck, and is largely a reason why more counterspells aren't all that necessary and could in fact be detrimental.

[JDK]

The problem with Solidarity is, that it is really weak to Counterbalance (EOT Bounce and going off in your turn is not as easy as in Spiral Tide) and also lacks strong AND cheap cantrips. Dig is extremely good, but it doesn't solve this issue. It's just a conditional Impulse on steroids.

[SirTylerGalt]

The problem with Solidarity is, that it is really weak to Counterbalance (EOT Bounce and going off in your turn is not as easy as in Spiral Tide) and also lacks strong AND cheap cantrips. Dig is extremely good, but it doesn't solve this issue. It's just a conditional Impulse on steroids.

One strategy against Counterbalance is to play 3-4 Brain Freezes. You make land drops, then start going off, responding to top reordering by casting spells with different CMC, and using Brain Freeze to clear the top of his library and resolve your spells...

Or just get 5-6 Storm then double brain freeze (Storm copies do not trigger CB) :)

[JDK]

Getting to that much storm and casting two BFs against a CB is probably not that easy to pull off. ;)

Anyway, that's just a way you COULD go IF the stars line up right and you have enough space in your build for that many Brain Freezes (which would increase your fizzle rate). It's not a definite solution and doesn't solve the problem in general.

[astormbrewing]

So what are the thoughts on playing 3 Force of Will instead of 4? Flusterstorm is something we can flashback with Snapcaster Mage, and Remand nets us a card. Force makes us pitch a card, which is then unusable for Snapcaster Mage and Dig Through Time. It's still amazing because it costs no mana and counters most things, but there might be enough downsides to warrant only 3.

I like having Snapcaster Mage, but not relying on the Snap/Snapcaster Mage engine, which activates their removal.

Engine:
4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Turnabout

Dig/Draw:
4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
4 Opt

Protection:
2 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Remand
1 Repeal

Utility:
2 Snapcaster Mage

Win Condition:
1 Brain Freeze
2 Cunning Wish

Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
10 Island
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Dig Through Time
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Repeal
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Swan Song
1 Turnabout
1 Twincast

[benthetenor]

Getting to that much storm and casting two BFs against a CB is probably not that easy to pull off. ;)

Not as difficult as you'd think. Assuming it's not followed up with a threat that will end the game shortly (like RUG used to do way back in the day), you will have many turns to draw your card, play your land, and let your hand develop into something you can win with. Brain Freezing the top of the library with active Counterbalance is one of the primary ways you beat that deck, after first running the opponent out of mana. Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top in and of itself is not that bad. It's only when it's backed up with pressure that you are in a terrible position. Multiple Brain Freezes is a great way to beat control decks in general, since it's not too difficult to get them into a position where on the turn you go off, you cast 4-5 spells and your opponent counters most of them, then you double Brain Freeze them and they just lose. There just hasn't been a legitimate counterspell-based control deck in the format in a very, very long time.

[JDK]

How much mana do you need to do this? You can bet your ass High Tide is not going to resolve against CB/Top. Resets will most likely meet a counter or CB trigger. Having enough lands left to get to 4 mana for the BFs is kinda....a far stretch.

Idk, it's far easier to go EOT Wipe Away and try to go off when they try to replay it.

[benthetenor]

In a game where you get to make 8 or 9 (or more) land drops, it's not difficult to get enough Islands on the table that you can pull off multiple Brain Freezes. Miracles is not known for winning quickly.

[Asthereal]

How much mana do you need to do this? You can bet your ass High Tide is not going to resolve against CB/Top. Resets will most likely meet a counter or CB trigger. Having enough lands left to get to 4 mana for the BFs is kinda....a far stretch.

Idk, it's far easier to go EOT Wipe Away and try to go off when they try to replay it.
Neat trick:
You Wish for a Wipe Away. They know you have it so they keep a CMC3 thing on top almost all of the time. This sounds bad, but if you get 2x High Tide and 2x Untap, you can actually go for it and when they try to stop you, Wipe Away still. You of course do this in their end step, so you get to untap and wreck them on your second try in response to the replay of Counterbalance.

There's so many things you can do with an all instant deck, it's just insane. Which in return makes this one of the hardest decks to play well.

[JDK]

Great trick! Only requires 5 cards and them not being able to spin top a few times!

:eyebrow:

@benthetenor
8 or 9 (or more)? That's pretty optimistic. This requires you to not miss land drops and sculpt your hand. And that your opponent doesn't do much besides durdling. They are more likely to hit their lands. They are likely to get counters on their own, in addition to CB. They can spin top multiple times. Is it possible? Sure, but it's not as likely as you make it sound.

[Mackan]

I came back to the deck when I realized Dig Through Time was the real deal. I made two significant changes to my list.

Dig Through Time over Remand:
I used to almost always side Remand out so to make room for Dig through time I cut them from the deck entierly. Going off and fizzle was one of the main reasons why I disliked Solidarity compared to Spiral Tide and the additional gas from Dig through Time is very helpful against that. I've played about 40 matches on MODO with Dig through time and it's been great. It lowers the fizzle-rate from something like 30% to 10% when going off and it also made the deck much more resilient to discard. 4 Flusterstorm and 4 Force of will seems enough and I've only missed Remand in already ok matchups (slower decks).

Thought Scour over Opt:
with the full playset of Dig Through Time and the full playset of Snapcaster Mage I decided to try Thought Scour over Opt. I was a bit sceptical at first, milling my goodies, but it's actually the opposite thanks to Snapcaster Mage. It's great with Brainstorm too. Acting like Dark ritual + draw a card is kind of insane if you think about it.

So, here is the list I play now:

CREATURES (4)
4 Snapcaster Mage
INSTANTS (38)
4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Flusterstorm
4 Impulse
4 Reset
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
4 Thought Scour
4 Force of Will
LANDS (18)
10 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
SIDEBOARD (15)
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Blue Sun’s Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Swan Song
1 Snap
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
3 Mystic Remora
1 Echoing Truth
1 Polymorphist’s Jest
1 Ravenous Trap

Some things about my Maindeck:

1)I don't really like Cunning Wish but I tested the alternative of running a win con main and it was even worse. Cunning wish for Meditate or Turnabout is atleast not terrible but drawing Brain Freeze and Blue Sun's Zenith feels much like it. You want the kill in your deck (or a wish lenght away), not in your hand. Having acces to bounce without playing any is ok too I guess. I tried a few games with the above list going +1 meditate +1 flash of insight +1 brain freeze -3 Cunning wish for a faster kill but it was actually slower as it was harder to set up. Drawing Brain Freeze or Blue sun's zenith is terrible most of the time. It also made me "weak" to Emrakul. Not beeing able to kill them the same turn as I Brain Freeze was a big deal also. My conclusion is that I normally don't generate enough mana for a straight up Blue Sun's kill so I have to rely on Brain Freeze but then I also want a card that forces my opponent to draw (unless he put a Treasure Cruise on the stack or something...). Words of Wisdom came to mind which is also a fine card outside of comboing. It doesn't help against Emrakul though and I don't want to be just dead to Sneak&Show G1.

2) Im going to try 3+1 High Tide between the main and the sideboard. This would make Cunning Wish a bit better but the deck slower as a whole. How do you guys like the split?

3) I do not miss Turnabout maindeck at all. 4 Reset is not a lot but it's plenty with the full playset of Snapcaster Mage and Dig Through Time. When I was playing Spiral Tide I usually sided out most Candelabras anyway and I strongly advice everyone to get rid of the additional untap effects.

Some things about my Sideboard:

1) I really like Mystic Remora in Spiral Tide but I haven't played enough games with Solidarity to know if it's good enough for the deck. Not beeing an instant is annoying. Maybe Im better of with more Swan Song, perhaps?

2) Polymorphist's Jest is very good. It's still pretty rare for your opponent to have both Ethersworn Canonist and Thalia in play but it happens. What I found much more common is a hatebear +Deathrite Shaman or Scavenging Ooze. The Jest stops that. Solidarity is actually super-weak to graveyard hate (unlike Spiral tide where Leyline of the Void does actual nothing).

3) I only really use half my sideboard so if you have some spicy transformational tech I gladly give it a try. Maybe we can splash something just in the sideboard? Vedalken Shackles and Faeries? :o

[JDK]

Solidarity is actually super-weak to graveyard hate (unlike Spiral tide where Leyline of the Void does actual nothing).
Your list is, for sure.

[Darkenslight]

Great trick! Only requires 5 cards and them not being able to spin top a few times!

Read Wipe Away again. Once they've changed for the other Spells, cast Wipe Away, and their combo is broken, leaving you with a CB off the board, and you almost free to continue comboing out.

[TiMeWaLk]

Your list is, for sure.

Except DTT, the deck has nothing new to offer. That's the only card which may bring Solidarity outside of the "fringe decks" section. Of course any new version will be dependant on its graveyard.

[Ralf]

So, here is the list I play now:

CREATURES (4)
4 Snapcaster Mage
INSTANTS (38)
4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Flusterstorm
4 Impulse
4 Reset
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
4 Thought Scour
4 Force of Will
LANDS (18)
10 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
SIDEBOARD (15)
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Blue Sun’s Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Swan Song
1 Snap
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
3 Mystic Remora
1 Echoing Truth
1 Polymorphist’s Jest
1 Ravenous Trap


Wow, I feel like T1 Delver reads "GG" with your list.

[benthetenor]

@benthetenor
8 or 9 (or more)? That's pretty optimistic. This requires you to not miss land drops and sculpt your hand. And that your opponent doesn't do much besides durdling. They are more likely to hit their lands. They are likely to get counters on their own, in addition to CB. They can spin top multiple times. Is it possible? Sure, but it's not as likely as you make it sound.

You're still talking like you've never actually done it, and just assuming it's unlikely. I can assure you, it's not overly difficult, and it happens a lot against Miracles. Miracles is exceptional at doing nothing if they're not under pressure, and so by the time they try to stop you, it will be far too late. And when your plan is "cast a bunch of spells and then finish with multiple Brain Freeze", you literally want them to sculpt a hand full of counterspells because you want them to counter every spell you play.

This is not some fringe strategy made up by me on the spot, it's a very strong plan against a slow counterspell-based deck that has been around since the deck was born. It's the reason that this deck has a strong control matchup. Having Counterbalance in their deck is no different than having any other counterspell, other than that it doesn't add to the storm count, but is weak to Brain Freeze.


@Mackan - in my experience, Thought Scour is pretty much strictly worse than just having more Brain Freezes. With multiple Brain Freezes, you can win with a smaller chain or over multiple turns with small Freezes, and it doesn't increase your reliance on the graveyard. Thought Scour is only good when your graveyard isn't under duress, and when you need to fill the graveyard (if you have Snapcaster Mages or a Dig Through Time in hand), Brain Freeze is much more efficient at doing so than Thought Scour ever can be, and it's practically uncounterable.


@Everyone who wants to cut Brain Freeze from the main deck - I understand this impulse, but I can assure you that, in this deck, Brain Freeze is the least-dead win condition in any storm combo deck that's ever existed. The best use for it is killing your opponent. The second best use is using it on yourself to ensure you don't fizzle mid-combo, when you have a Snapcaster Mage or a Dig Through Time in hand. Being all instants, there's no need to let all of the storm copies resolve. You interrupt the stack as soon as you've milled what you need, then you continue to combo off with the storm copies sitting there. You then use Brainstorm and the storm copies sitting there to further increase the quality of your hand. If you were playing with Visions of Beyond, you make that happen. So, so many options. By moving Brain Freeze to the sideboard, you limit the options you have for yourself and you increase the probability that you will fizzle.

[JDK]

Read Wipe Away again. Once they've changed for the other Spells, cast Wipe Away, and their combo is broken, leaving you with a CB off the board, and you almost free to continue comboing out.
I know what the card does. The question is, if you understand, that the need for that many specific cards is making this pretty hard. Again, Miracles isn't just going to sit there after putting the lock into play and not picking up additional counterspells.


Except DTT, the deck has nothing new to offer. That's the only card which may bring Solidarity outside of the "fringe decks" section. Of course any new version will be dependant on its graveyard.
So? His list fully depends on the GY with 4 DTT and 4 Snapcaster. In addition he uses Thought Scour, which makes Extraction better. Way too dependent and conditional for my taste.

[Darkenslight]

I know what the card does. The question is, if you understand, that the need for that many specific cards is making this pretty hard. Again, Miracles isn't just going to sit there after putting the lock into play and not picking up additional counterspells.

Wipe Away laughs at counterspells. This is why it's the best removal spell in this deck.

[JDK]

You want other spells to resolve, don't you?

[JDK]

Piloted Solidarity to a Top4 finish in my local Legacy Open:

//Lands
2 Flooded Strand
11 Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn

//Spells
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
1 Cunning Wish
1 Dig Through Time
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
2 Opt
2 Peek
2 Repeal
4 Reset
2 Snap
2 Turnabout

//Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Sideboard
1 Snap
2 Wipe Away
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
1 Turnabout
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Swan Song
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Dig Through Time

R1: vs. Punishing BURG (?) 2-0
R2: vs. Punishing Control (UWR) 1-1-1 - Games 2 & 3 he has more counters than I probably drew in the whole tournament. FoWs, Pyroblasts, Counterspells, Izzet Charms, Swan Songs, Canonist, Flusterstorm...
R3: vs. UR Delver 0-2 - I concede because I am already qualified for the invitational and he isn't (wasn't at that point).
R4: vs. Enchantress 2-0 - Game 1 he thinks Emrakul saves him. Game 2 he just tried to stick two Solitary Confinements and thinks again to be save with Emrakul.
R5: vs. Deathblade 2-0

Top4: vs. UR Delver - Game 1 I get stuck at two lands. Game 2 I try to go off with facing lethal, but he has Pyroblast, Force of Will, Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm and I couldn't play around the latter.

Initially I wanted to play two Dig Through Times MD and just 2 Snapcaster Mages, but I didn't have access to the third DTT (wanted one in the SB). Anyway, Snapcaster Mage again proved to be of much value and 3 will stay in my maindeck for now. The Swan Songs should probably be Pacts. I cut Rebuild/Recall due to a lack of MUD & Co, since my meta is somewhat predictable.

[astormbrewing]

Piloted Solidarity to a Top4 finish in my local Legacy Open:

//Lands
2 Flooded Strand
11 Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn

//Spells
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
1 Cunning Wish
1 Dig Through Time
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
2 Opt
2 Peek
2 Repeal
4 Reset
2 Snap
2 Turnabout

//Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Sideboard
1 Snap
2 Wipe Away
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
1 Turnabout
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Swan Song
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Dig Through Time

R1: vs. Punishing BURG (?) 2-0
R2: vs. Punishing Control (UWR) 1-1-1 - Games 2 & 3 he has more counters than I probably drew in the whole tournament. FoWs, Pyroblasts, Counterspells, Izzet Charms...
R3: vs. UR Delver 0-2 - I concede because I am already qualified for the invitational and he isn't (wasn't at that point).
R4: vs. Enchantress 2-0 - Game 1 he thinks Emrakul saves him. Game 2 he just tried to stick two Solitary Confinements and thinks again to be save with Emrakul.
R5: vs. Deathblade 2-0

Top4: vs. UR Delver - Game 1 I get stuck at two lands. Game 2 I try to go off with facing lethal, but he has Pyroblast, Force of Will, Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm and I couldn't play around the latter.

Initially I wanted to play two Dig Through Times MD and just 2 Snapcaster Mages, but I didn't have access to the third DTT (wanted one in the SB). Anyway, Snapcaster Mage again proved to be of much value and 3 will stay in my maindeck for now. The Swan Songs should probably be Pacts. I cut Rebuild/Recall due to a lack of MUD & Co, since my meta is somewhat predictable.

Couple questions for how you feel about your deck JDK:
Do you still want a second Dig Through Time in the main deck, even with 3 Snapcaster Mages?
How much do you like having Snap? How often do you use it on your Snapcaster Mage?
How much do you like having just 1 Cunning Wish? Is Wishing for something you don't often need to do?

[JDK]

Couple questions for how you feel about your deck JDK:
Do you still want a second Dig Through Time in the main deck, even with 3 Snapcaster Mages?
How much do you like having Snap? How often do you use it on your Snapcaster Mage?
How much do you like having just 1 Cunning Wish? Is Wishing for something you don't often need to do?
Yeah, I still want the second Dig Through Time and would probably cut a Turnabout for testing. Not sure though.

I like Snap a lot and primarily use it on my Snapcaster Mages to jump up Storm and get a Meditate/Reset etc flashed back.

I don't think Cunning Wish is something I need to use pre-combo that often. It's also the first thing I've cut to make some changes for the current UR Delver meta (which is still a horrible matchup, which is why I want more Pacts). I wouldn't go higher than two anymore and I don't even think more than one is needed in my build. There was only one time where I was about to exile my only Brain Freeze in the 60 and used Wish previously to fetch a Pact, which would have left me without a way to actually win (which doesn't mean you should stop comboing if you realize it too late, since some opponents scoop mid-combo).

[benthetenor]

Piloted Solidarity to a Top4 finish in my local Legacy Open:

//Lands
2 Flooded Strand
11 Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn

//Spells
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
1 Cunning Wish
1 Dig Through Time
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
2 Opt
2 Peek
2 Repeal
4 Reset
2 Snap
2 Turnabout

//Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Sideboard
1 Snap
2 Wipe Away
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
1 Turnabout
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Swan Song
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Dig Through Time

R1: vs. Punishing BURG (?) 2-0
R2: vs. Punishing Control (UWR) 1-1-1 - Games 2 & 3 he has more counters than I probably drew in the whole tournament. FoWs, Pyroblasts, Counterspells, Izzet Charms, Swan Songs, Canonist, Flusterstorm...
R3: vs. UR Delver 0-2 - I concede because I am already qualified for the invitational and he isn't (wasn't at that point).
R4: vs. Enchantress 2-0 - Game 1 he thinks Emrakul saves him. Game 2 he just tried to stick two Solitary Confinements and thinks again to be save with Emrakul.
R5: vs. Deathblade 2-0

Top4: vs. UR Delver - Game 1 I get stuck at two lands. Game 2 I try to go off with facing lethal, but he has Pyroblast, Force of Will, Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm and I couldn't play around the latter.

Initially I wanted to play two Dig Through Times MD and just 2 Snapcaster Mages, but I didn't have access to the third DTT (wanted one in the SB). Anyway, Snapcaster Mage again proved to be of much value and 3 will stay in my maindeck for now. The Swan Songs should probably be Pacts. I cut Rebuild/Recall due to a lack of MUD & Co, since my meta is somewhat predictable.

That list is very close to my current build; The changes are:

-1 Island
-1 Opt
-1 Flusterstorm
-1 Force of Will
-1 Turnabout

+1 fetchland
+1 Peek
+1 Cunning Wish
+1 Dig Through Time
+1 Brain Freeze

And my sideboard is:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Flusterstorm
2 Murmur's From Beyond
3 Twincast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap

I find Twincast to be a strong card against Delver decks because it allows you to Twincast their Treasure Cruises in the setup phase to maintain card parity, and it lets you fork spells around their countermagic mid-combo. I do not personally like having more than 5 counterspells in this deck at any point, both because it's usually unnecessary and because it leads to drawing a lot of air mid-combo which is just as fatal as not having enough. Twincasts are often just as good, and they also can help combo out. They're also nuts against a lot of different combo decks, which is another set of matchups where you'd want more counterspells. I do like Flusterstorm more than Force of Will in many situations, but of course we need Force of Will in some numbers.

I find this list to be the most flexible and it gets a solid addition in Dig Through Time. It will be an interesting to see how the metagame continues to adapt to Treasure Cruise, and to whatever happens in January, and consequently, if this deck has a strong place or not in the metagame.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Has anyone tested Top? That seems good at setting up combo turn in this deck.

[Darkenslight]

Has anyone tested Top? That seems good at setting up combo turn in this deck.

Sadly, Top isn't what you're doing; this is a deck that plays entirely on your opponent's turn. You can literally do nothing on your turn and win. Top negates that advantage.

[JDK]

That list is very close to my current build; The changes are:

-1 Island
-1 Opt
-1 Flusterstorm
-1 Force of Will
-1 Turnabout

+1 fetchland
+1 Peek
+1 Cunning Wish
+1 Dig Through Time
+1 Brain Freeze

And my sideboard is:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Flusterstorm
2 Murmur's From Beyond
3 Twincast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
I don't think Murmurs From Beyond has any spot here. I'd rather play Dig Through Time or Intuition in that spot. Yeah it's CA, but you have no selection (yourself).
Twincast is probably the most fun card in the whole deck, but I never felt the need for it and I get the feeling it is too slow against UR Delver to begin with. Against more aggressive UR Decks you don't just face threats, you also play against a significant amount of counters (especially post-board). Due to the aggressive nature you have to work with few lands and that's why I want Pact over Twincast. Against slower URx decks it's probably better, though.

[Redkid43]

Has the 1 Cunning Wish been okay for you?

[benthetenor]

I don't think Murmurs From Beyond has any spot here. I'd rather play Dig Through Time or Intuition in that spot. Yeah it's CA, but you have no selection (yourself).
Twincast is probably the most fun card in the whole deck, but I never felt the need for it and I get the feeling it is too slow against UR Delver to begin with. Against more aggressive UR Decks you don't just face threats, you also play against a significant amount of counters (especially post-board). Due to the aggressive nature you have to work with few lands and that's why I want Pact over Twincast. Against slower URx decks it's probably better, though.

If you're having trouble beating a Delver deck, then the way to beat them is to contain their faster cards with bounce and Snapcaster Mages on blocking duty, and using Twincast to get your spells around theirs so that when you draw into counterspells you can free up the spells that are pinned down and go about your business. It's impossible for us to win off of three lands through counterspells, so the only thing that makes sense would be boarding in Snaps and Repeals to extend the game so we can make more land drops and beat them with a board full of islands. If that's not working, two other cards that are useful are Mindbreak Trap (they will always have cast lots of spells and it's a great way to fight multiple counters at once) or multiple Brain Freezes so that you can try to get them over a few turns. Flusterstorm is not bad either, but if you're trying to not lose too much tempo, Twincast is a much better card. To be certain, Pact and Flusterstorm and Force of Will are all great cards, but the way you beat lots of counterspells is not with lots of counterspells yourself. If you board in too many, your deck becomes more unstable when going off. But you will not be able to win consistently if you are playing their game and trying to go off on turn 4, especially if you are boarding out business spells for counterspells.

All that being said, UR Delver has absolutely always been the most difficult matchup because all of it's cards are perfectly positioned against ours and it's the fastest at what it does. RUG Delver was a cakewalk compared. That was even when they were playing bad cards (against us) like Price of Progress and Sulfuric Vortex. And now they have the ability to play the late-game too. It might be too difficult to beat now, which is why I'm not really championing this deck right now. But I fully expect the metagame to either evolve to contain UR Delver, or to completely change with the next B/R announcement. We'll know a lot more about what the metagame will look like after the GP.

Murmurs from Beyond is not a card for wishing for, it's a card for boarding in in grindy matchups that are slow with either lots of discard or lots of counterspells. It's always a two-for-one regardless of how much pressure our graveyard is under, and if our graveyard is not under any pressure then it's insane. It's for matchups where card advantage is more important than card selection (which is all of them, but there are some where you need to recoup CA). Dig Through Time doesn't work at all under a Rest in Peace.

[Asthereal]

Murmurs from Beyond is not a card for wishing for, it's a card for boarding in in grindy matchups that are slow with either lots of discard or lots of counterspells. It's always a two-for-one regardless of how much pressure our graveyard is under, and if our graveyard is not under any pressure then it's insane. It's for matchups where card advantage is more important than card selection (which is all of them, but there are some where you need to recoup CA). Dig Through Time doesn't work at all under a Rest in Peace.
Murmurs is terrible. From the top three cards, the best one gets binned. And the opponent knows the others. You must know that usually from the top three cards, it is often more valuable to have the best one than to have the other two, right? I'm absolutely positive -with a little research- I can come up with three better options.

First one I can think of: Fact or Fiction. One more mana, but definitely worth it.
After some searching I found the second: I would also prefer Three Wishes.
Thinking about one of my arguments: Peer Through Depths is better, since it gives you the best of the top five.

[benthetenor]

That is true assuming that the opponent knows what the best card is in the stack. That is something that is often untrue, and completely irrelevant if we have a Snapcaster Mage.

edit: turns out I don't care. Don't like it? Don't play with it. It is a good card that has viable applications that are needed in the spaces that I've suggested for it and that no other card does.

[Asthereal]

That is true assuming that the opponent knows what the best card is in the stack. That is something that is often untrue
You have to assume that they know. Or at least have a vague idea. The deck idea is quite simple. Execution is hard, but let's face it, you need Tide, an Untapper and a draw spell. Also, mark my words, this deck will become a LOT more popular now Dig through Time is a thing. A friend of mine just piloted it to the finals of our local tourney (41 people), only losing in the finals to a lucky Elves player who got Ruric Thar though twice without him being able to either go off in response or to counter it. What are the odds?


completely irrelevant if we have a Snapcaster Mage.
True, but post board you cannot count on your yard to be of any use. Note they will anticipate your Dig Through Time and Snapcaster shenanigans and board in grave hate. They'd be idiots not to, since there's usualy not that much that actually ineracts with Solidarity anyway.


Seeing as how you are suggesting cards that have been tried and thrown away, it's pretty clear you've never played this deck.
Coming from a guy who suggests the worst one in the list. Come on man, with Meditate and Dig Through Time as options, who suggests Murmurs from Beyond? :confused:

[benthetenor]

You have to assume that they know. Or at least have a vague idea. The deck idea is quite simple. Execution is hard, but let's face it, you need Tide, an Untapper and a draw spell. Also, mark my words, this deck will become a LOT more popular now Dig through Time is a thing. A friend of mine just piloted it to the finals of our local tourney (41 people), only losing in the finals to a lucky Elves player who got Ruric Thar though twice without him being able to either go off in response or to counter it. What are the odds?

It's turn three. On their endstep, you cast it and reveal High Tide, Meditate and an Island. What is the best card in that stack? What if what you really need is the Island? Is there any way that they're going to know that? What if you need all three, and they just give you the "worst" two? What if you can work around it? What if it's actually turn 7 and you have six lands in play and the opponent assumes you still need the High Tide to win? If you are playing this deck assuming that there is ANY specific card in it that you need to resolve to win, you have no idea what you're doing.


True, but post board you cannot count on your yard to be of any use. Note they will anticipate your Dig Through Time and Snapcaster shenanigans and board in grave hate. They'd be idiots not to, since there's usualy not that much that actually ineracts with Solidarity anyway.

In my current build, my deck has five cards maindeck that care AT ALL about the graveyard. If they bring in Rest in Peace, game three I board out Dig Through Time and Snapcaster Mages for Twincast and Murmurs from Beyond. My deck is a little worse, but I can still easily win with it and they now have dead cards in their deck that they are digging towards to beat me. If anyone brings in Graveyard hate against this deck and expects it to be a knock-out blow, they will lose very quickly.


Coming from a guy who suggests the worst one in the list. Come on man, with Meditate and Dig Through Time as options, who suggests Murmurs from Beyond? :confused:

None of the suggestions you came up with do what Murmurs from Beyond does. Peer Through the Depths is not card advantage. Fact or Fiction isn't even guaranteed card advantage and costs too much to be an effective setup spell. Three Wishes is great when going off, but it is completely useless as a setup spell. If you're going to sit there and suggest cards that have already been tried and dismissed, I'm not even going to bother with responding anymore.

[Redkid43]

If you guys are going to be playing with cards like Murmurs why not play Three Wishes?

[Asthereal]

There aren't many cards that do exactly the same. They tend not to create fourty cards that do the same, since people might find that uncreative, boring and simplistic. The cards I mentioned are better. But by all means, play your Murmurs if you want.

In defence of Fact: yes, it's a mana more, but it gets you either of these:
1. Three moah cards, and two good cards in the yard to Snapcaster.
2. Two good cards and a netto four bad cards in the yard to feed to DDT.
3. Four bad cards you can hopefully improve with a Brainstorm at some point, plus one great card in the yard to Snapcaster.
4. One brilliant card, and a pile of crappy five in the yard, which in itself pays for your next DDT.

Isn't that worth the extra mana, compared to Murmurs, which gets you two cards that may or may not help you, and a good third card in the yard to Snapcaster? Wow, what a card advantage. Plus one card. That's like DDT, but then the usually worst two of three cards instead of the best two out of seven.

But to be clear here: I'm not saying "play Fact". I'm saying Murmurs is bad.



Fact or Fiction isn't even guaranteed card advantage ....... If you're going to sit there and suggest cards that have already been tried and dismissed, I'm not even going to bother with responding anymore.
Oh, and please don't go full retard, and then say such a thing. It's insulting. I'm trying to help here.

[benthetenor]

Three Wishes is not card advantage except when going off. You lose all of the cards you've found if you don't cast them, so as a setup spell, it's actually card disadvantage. What I am looking for is a setup spell that will provide card advantage for a reasonable mana cost. Murmurs is a fine card against someone who tries to beat us with heavy discard or an unreasonable number of counterspells since it gives us more cards than them. Snapcaster Mage is just icing, but you have to be able to win dirty with this deck to be able to contend with it.

[benthetenor]

There aren't many cards that do exactly the same. They tend not to create fourty cards that do the same, since people might find that uncreative, boring and simplistic. The cards I mentioned are better. But by all means, play your Murmurs if you want.

In defence of Fact: yes, it's a mana more, but it gets you either of these:
1. Three moah cards, and two good cards in the yard to Snapcaster.
2. Two good cards and a netto four bad cards in the yard to feed to DDT.
3. Four bad cards you can hopefully improve with a Brainstorm at some point, plus one great card in the yard to Snapcaster.
4. One brilliant card, and a pile of crappy five in the yard, which in itself pays for your next DDT.

Isn't that worth the extra mana, compared to Murmurs, which gets you two cards that may or may not help you, and a good third card in the yard to Snapcaster? Wow, what a card advantage. Plus one card. That's like DDT, but then the usually worst two of three cards instead of the best two out of seven.

I'm not saying "play Fact". I'm saying Murmurs is bad.

I'm not concerned about the one extra mana, I'm concerned with the three extra mana it's going to cost. Fact or Fiction begs for a Spell Pierce. Or a Daze. Or even a Force of Will. If they Spell Pierce your Murmors from Beyond, it's a reasonable card to Snapcaster back. Also you just won that exchange, because who Spell Pierces Murmurs from Beyond? Dig Through Time has the same problem. If I wanted to spend 4 mana to draw two cards, I'd play Divination. At least that way, the opponent would have no say in what those two cards are.

If you just got two cards for one card, it is almost irrelevant what those two cards are. If you can't understand that, you need to practice more.

If you really think the card is complete garbage, perhaps you should read this thread? It's been a playable card in this deck before. Fact or Fiction never has.

[Redkid43]

I've always been a fan of Intuition in Snapcaster heavy builds. Because it fuels the graveyard with redundant copies of cards, and with Snapcasters, it's like drawing 3 cards with Intuition.

In terms of set up, doesn't just Brainstorming and Peeking and Opting do pretty much what you want them to do if you know what cards you need to go off, or do you want something a bit more tangible and will set up your Snapcasters better?

[benthetenor]

I've always been a fan of Intuition in Snapcaster heavy builds. Because it fuels the graveyard with redundant copies of cards, and with Snapcasters, it's like drawing 3 cards with Intuition.

In terms of set up, doesn't just Brainstorming and Peeking and Opting do pretty much what you want them to do if you know what cards you need to go off, or do you want something a bit more tangible and will set up your Snapcasters better?

I don't think you want to build the deck in such a way that you are reliant upon Snapcaster Mage to go off, because in that scenario, you will just lose to a Rest in Peace. The deck has a strength in that using the graveyard only adds consistency to the kill, but is not a requirement. It's been a discussion since Flash of Insight was the two-of graveyard card. The thing that Murmurs from Beyond does that Impulse and Opt and Peek and Brainstorm do not do is provide legitimate card advantage for a fair amount of mana that is useful both in going off and in the setup phase.

For instance, what good is it for them to put a Meditate in the graveyard off of Murmurs from Beyond if they give you two cantrips? Or if you have an Impulse in hand? The deck is so good at card selection that it doesn't matter what two cards you get. All that matters is that you gained a card on the opponent. Absent a Gitaxian Probe from the opponent directly before you cast Murmurs from Beyond, they will not know exactly what is in your hand and exactly what they can and can't give you. It is a very strong card because it helps recover from cards like Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach, which is something that Three Wishes or Peer Through the Depths can't do and that Fact or Fiction or Dig Through Time can only do in a more limited way.

Put another way, if you have a Brainstorm in hand and they give you an Island and a Fetchland off of Murmurs from Beyond (which is probably the worst possible), you're still ahead because they gave you both a land drop and a card to shuffle away.

[Asthereal]

I read most of the thread. What you seem to miss is the fact that this thread is a few things:
1. VERY old. This deck was viable in ~2007. A lot has changed since then.
2. Full of posts from people who are not experts in the deck. Not that I am one, but I talked a lot about the deck with someone who is. He doesn't post here often, simply because he feels there's not many people whose comments actually help...
3. Imcomplete!! This deck needs a LOT of work before we find the optimal list. Cards that have been cast aside earlier may prove to be better than cards that were not. Yes, this also applies to your Murmurs, I am aware of that. But the arguments I presented are real. Murmurs seems below par at best.

[benthetenor]

I read most of the thread. What you seem to miss is the fact that this thread is a few things:
1. VERY old. This deck was viable in ~2007. A lot has changed since then.
2. Full of posts from people who are not experts in the deck. Not that I am one, but I talked a lot about the deck with someone who is. He doesn't post here often, simply because he feels there's not many people whose comments actually help...
3. Imcomplete!! This deck needs a LOT of work before we find the optimal list. Cards that have been cast aside earlier may prove to be better than cards that were not. Yes, this also applies to your Murmurs, I am aware of that. But the arguments I presented are real. Murmurs seems below par at best.

If you're talking about Seraphus, Murmurs was his idea first. I can guarantee you that he likes it better than Fact or Fiction. Guarantee. And even he hasn't been playing this deck for as long as I have.

[Asthereal]

If you're talking about Seraphus, Murmurs was his idea first. I can guarantee you that he likes it better than Fact or Fiction. Guarantee. And even he hasn't been playing this deck for as long as I have.
I'm not talking about anyone in particular. I know two experts, one of whom I talked to on Sunday, and the other hasn't played this deck in ages because it wasn't good enough. I am simply stating you should be conscious of the fact that not all you read on the web is useful. Most of it is not. We are discussing a card that I feel is bad, and I have stated my reasons. You feel it's good, and have stated yours, but your reasoning is bad. Let me show you why:



I'm not concerned about the one extra mana, I'm concerned with the three extra mana it's going to cost. Fact or Fiction begs for a Spell Pierce. Or a Daze. Or even a Force of Will. If they Spell Pierce your Murmors from Beyond, it's a reasonable card to Snapcaster back. Also you just won that exchange, because who Spell Pierces Murmurs from Beyond? Dig Through Time has the same problem.
Here you are saying:
A. Fact is bad because it begs for a counter.
B. Murmurs is good because only an idiot would counter that.
C. Murmurs is easier to Snapcaster back.

But actually, you should ask yourself:

Why would people love to counter Fact, and would I feel they are idiots if your counter Murmurs? The reason is: because Fact is WAY more powerful than Murmurs. You are contradicting yourself because if you say Fact is the only one worth countering, in fact you are reasoning in favour of Fact.

And for your point in C: if you can Snapcaster Murmurs, you have five lands. At that point additional land is not needed, and they will know, which makes the effect of Murmurs a lot worse. Not to mention the fact that if the grave isn't attacked (and Snapcaster has a clear coast), your focus should be Dig through Time because it's simply better in every way (costs less, better effect).

Additionally -already mentioned that, but it belongs here- you said the Fact isn't guaranteed card advantage. But it is.

These are two clear moments where you post complete nonsense to advocate your point. You cannot contradict this. So please, again, try not to be condescending towards me by telling me I am inexperienced, don't read enough or wharever, and post sound arguments to make your point. Right now all you have is: someone suggested it, it wasn't me, and it's only three mana! That doesn't cut it. I'm sorry.

[JDK]

If you're having trouble beating a Delver deck, then the way to beat them is to contain their faster cards with bounce and Snapcaster Mages on blocking duty, and using Twincast to get your spells around theirs so that when you draw into counterspells you can free up the spells that are pinned down and go about your business. It's impossible for us to win off of three lands through counterspells, so the only thing that makes sense would be boarding in Snaps and Repeals to extend the game so we can make more land drops and beat them with a board full of islands. If that's not working, two other cards that are useful are Mindbreak Trap (they will always have cast lots of spells and it's a great way to fight multiple counters at once) or multiple Brain Freezes so that you can try to get them over a few turns. Flusterstorm is not bad either, but if you're trying to not lose too much tempo, Twincast is a much better card. To be certain, Pact and Flusterstorm and Force of Will are all great cards, but the way you beat lots of counterspells is not with lots of counterspells yourself. If you board in too many, your deck becomes more unstable when going off. But you will not be able to win consistently if you are playing their game and trying to go off on turn 4, especially if you are boarding out business spells for counterspells.

All that being said, UR Delver has absolutely always been the most difficult matchup because all of it's cards are perfectly positioned against ours and it's the fastest at what it does. RUG Delver was a cakewalk compared. That was even when they were playing bad cards (against us) like Price of Progress and Sulfuric Vortex. And now they have the ability to play the late-game too. It might be too difficult to beat now, which is why I'm not really championing this deck right now. But I fully expect the metagame to either evolve to contain UR Delver, or to completely change with the next B/R announcement. We'll know a lot more about what the metagame will look like after the GP.
Well, thanks for stating the obvious. :tongue: I mean, seriously, you saw my list so you know I am even playing 4 bounce spells maindeck. Plus 3 Snapcaster Mages. In the end it didn't even matter since the deck was too fast for me. Twincast would have done actually nothing in my games against UR Delver. Didn't help that I was on the draw and stuck at two lands in game 1.

I actually thought about Trap (cut the one in my SB just before the tournament for a second Swan Song), but didn't like the idea of it being possibly dead (it would have been amazing in several games actually). Will need some testing though. Pact or Trap, I guess.


Murmurs from Beyond is not a card for wishing for, it's a card for boarding in in grindy matchups that are slow with either lots of discard or lots of counterspells. It's always a two-for-one regardless of how much pressure our graveyard is under, and if our graveyard is not under any pressure then it's insane. It's for matchups where card advantage is more important than card selection (which is all of them, but there are some where you need to recoup CA). Dig Through Time doesn't work at all under a Rest in Peace.


That is true assuming that the opponent knows what the best card is in the stack. That is something that is often untrue, and completely irrelevant if we have a Snapcaster Mage.
On the one hand you argue against DTT with Rest in Peace and on the other hand you argue for Murmurs with Snapcaster Mage. Meh.

I get why you play Murmurs and in those MUs it's completely fine. I just think I don't need more carddraw than I already have, since you can recover pretty nicely with Meditate, Snapcaster Mage and DTT. So for me, a wishtarget beside USZ has to be able to fetch me gas midcombo. The gas I want AND actually need.

[benthetenor]

I'm not talking about anyone in particular. I know two experts, one of whom I talked to on Sunday, and the other hasn't played this deck in ages because it wasn't good enough. I am simply stating you should be conscious of the fact that not all you read on the web is useful. Most of it is not. We are discussing a card that I feel is bad, and I have stated my reasons. You feel it's good, and have stated yours, but your reasoning is bad. Let me show you why:



Here you are saying:
A. Fact is bad because it begs for a counter.
B. Murmurs is good because only an idiot would counter that.
C. Murmurs is easier to Snapcaster back.

But actually, you should ask yourself:

Why would people love to counter Fact, and would I feel they are idiots if your counter Murmurs? The reason is: because Fact is WAY more powerful than Murmurs. You are contradicting yourself because if you say Fact is the only one worth countering, in fact you are reasoning in favour of Fact.

And for your point in C: if you can Snapcaster Murmurs, you have five lands. At that point additional land is not needed, and they will know, which makes the effect of Murmurs a lot worse. Not to mention the fact that if the grave isn't attacked (and Snapcaster has a clear coast), your focus should be Dig through Time because it's simply better in every way (costs less, better effect).

Additionally -already mentioned that, but it belongs here- you said the Fact isn't guaranteed card advantage. But it is.

These are two clear moments where you post complete nonsense to advocate your point. You cannot contradict this. So please, again, try not to be condescending towards me by telling me I am inexperienced, don't read enough or wharever, and post sound arguments to make your point. Right now all you have is: someone suggested it, it wasn't me, and it's only three mana! That doesn't cut it. I'm sorry.

...now I remember why I stopped posting here.

I want a card that people will not counter that gives me card advantage. I want it in specific matchups, to happen in specific situations, which is why it is in the sideboard. People will counter Fact or Fiction if given the option. Very few will counter Murmurs, and if they do, I'm only out three mana instead of four. That is relevant. The fact that it is castable on time (turn 3) as a setup spell means that it is useful. By turn 4 I'm no longer trying to play the setup game, I'm trying to win. And if I am still setting up, I'd still rather it cost less so I could cast more spells in the same turn rather than putting all of my eggs in the Fact or Fiction basket. Whether you think Fact or Fiction is better than Murmurs is irrelevant; Fact or Fiction is unplayable, Murmurs is not.

I am not trying to condescend. I think if you think that Fact or Fiction is a possible card for this deck, or that Dig Through Time is "simply better in every way" than Murmurs, then it is, in fact, clear that you have not actually played this deck. I have no interest in what the internet tells me. I am speaking from long, deep, ongoing experience with a deck that is too difficult for most people to play well enough to even win with. I've been working on this deck off and on since late 2004, and you have decided to derail the topic with cards that HAVE NEVER BEEN GOOD ENOUGH to play in this deck, with the defense that "it's not 2007, maybe they're good now!". In what world would it make sense for me to take your opinions seriously? Again, not trying to condescend, just asking logically, why should I take you seriously? I have stated my reasoning. I don't care even a little bit if you disagree. But it is condescending for you to tell me that I have not made sound arguments.

One last try, then I am done. Murmurs from Beyond:
1. Costs three mana, draws two cards, at instant speed. This is a good thing for this deck. It is on-time for setup, and useful mid-combo.
2. Is good in situations where the opponent does not know the contents of your hand, which will be most of the time
3. Is still worth casting even when you have no graveyard, or when the opponent knows what is in your hand, because it is still card advantage, which is something lacking in this deck.
4. Is a strong card in a metagame where heavy discard-based decks operate, or a strong sideboard card in a metagame where that matchup would come up.

Fact or Fiction:
1. Costs four mana, draws between one and four cards, (2.5 cards on average) at instant speed. This is a lot of mana for setup, though would be useful mid-combo. It is, by definition, not guaranteed card advantage.
2. Is good in situations where the opponent does not know the contents of your hand, which will be most of the time
3. Is not really worth casting when you have no graveyard, or when the opponent knows what is in your hand, because though it is still card advantage, it will eat up your entire turn, and you cannot cast it before turn 4 without burning a High Tide.
4. Is a weak card where discard is highly prevalent, since it's higher casting cost makes it more likely to be in hand when a discard spell is cast. I have no idea what matchup you'd ever even side it in for if it's not good enough maindeck.

My issue with it is casting cost. It always has been. Three mana is much easier to come by than four in a deck that plays with 18 lands, some number of them fetchlands. It is much more likely that you will miss your fourth land drop than your third. Both can happen, one is much more likely. For the added risk of costing an extra mana, Fact or Fiction draws half a card more on average. That's cool, and is actually slightly above-rate, which is a point in Fact or Fiction's favor. It's also an entire turn slower, at best, and is a high-profile target for counterspells. That is not nothing. It is, in fact, the entire reason why it has never been played in this deck. It is not useful during the setup phase of the game, both because it requires you to already be in an extremely strong position (4 lands in play, under so little pressure that you are willing to give up your ability to win on that turn to cast it) and it is much more likely to get countered than pretty much any spell in your deck, both from people who are intimately familiar with how this deck functions, and by people who have never seen the card before. It is, at best, an expensive Meditate, and if we wanted another Meditate, we'd be playing Three Wishes. I have the same issue with Dig Through Time, given that removing cards from the graveyard is a cost. It is a card that is difficult to cast before turn three or four, whereas Murmurs is always right on time, always draws two cards, always helps advance your gameplan. Dig Through Time is still worth playing because most of the time it is two cards for two mana, but practically speaking, it is not more reliable than something like Peer Through the Depths. It has a higher cost, and a higher risk, with a higher reward. But I am not in the market for filling up on high-risk, high-reward cards in a deck that is already prone to losing to itself. Less mana leads to higher flexibility with leads to resiliency which makes it easier to win small, which in turn leads to many, many more wins. I don't want to cast Fact or Fiction. I want to cast Murmurs from Beyond, because when I do, I win more. You do not have to feel the same way, but rest assured, my opinion on the cards is based on 10 years of experience with this deck. Yours seems to be based on the opinion of some set of guys that you won't even name. You'll have to forgive me if I'm not impressed.

[benthetenor]

Well, thanks for stating the obvious. :tongue: I mean, seriously, you saw my list so you know I am even playing 4 bounce spells maindeck. Plus 3 Snapcaster Mages. In the end it didn't even matter since the deck was too fast for me. Twincast would have done actually nothing in my games against UR Delver. Didn't help that I was on the draw and stuck at two lands in game 1.

I actually thought about Trap (cut the one in my SB just before the tournament for a second Swan Song), but didn't like the idea of it being possibly dead (it would have been amazing in several games actually). Will need some testing though. Pact or Trap, I guess.




On the one hand you argue against DTT with Rest in Peace and on the other hand you argue for Murmurs with Snapcaster Mage. Meh.

I get why you play Murmurs and in those MUs it's completely fine. I just think I don't need more carddraw than I already have, since you can recover pretty nicely with Meditate, Snapcaster Mage and DTT. So for me, a wishtarget beside USZ has to be able to fetch me gas midcombo. The gas I want AND actually need.

It's true. It's a sideboard card, so it's always up for debate, and if you're not getting into those matchups very often, it's an easy switch. As I said, the strong rise of UR Delver is not a positive thing for this deck, no matter how good Dig Through Time may be in this deck. Something like Piracy Charm in some number is also always an option, since it kills 2/3rds of their creatures in at least some point of the game, but the truth is it's just a very, very bad matchup.

[Valtrix]

Am I wrong in thinking that Vendilion Clique is probably just one of the best options this deck has against delver? It lets you see their hand, deal with a counterspell and block. The three mana is a bit harsh, but given that Clique probably will always buy you at least a turn against delver (assuming its not countered!) it seems like a very reasonable card to me for the current meta. I haven't gotten a lot of time to test recently, but I'll be trying them out in larger numbers against some of the delver players at my LGS.

[benthetenor]

Am I wrong in thinking that Vendilion Clique is probably just one of the best options this deck has against delver? It lets you see their hand, deal with a counterspell and block. The three mana is a bit harsh, but given that Clique probably will always buy you at least a turn against delver (assuming its not countered!) it seems like a very reasonable card to me for the current meta. I haven't gotten a lot of time to test recently, but I'll be trying them out in larger numbers against some of the delver players at my LGS.

It's a reasonable card, assuming it's taking the spot of a counterspell or something, but it does nothing really to help you combo off. I guess you could Clique yourself, which is unimpressive, but at least it's not entirely dead. Repeal is probably just going to be better most of the time, since bouncing a flipped delver buys you all kinds of turns, which helps you make land drops, which adds both to your ability to fight counterspells and to your ability to not fizzle. With Repeal, you can also use it to bounce a Monastery Swiftspear regardless of how big it is for just two mana. Again, we both play two main already, maybe two more to sideboard in is where we want to be?

[JDK]

It's a reasonable card, assuming it's taking the spot of a counterspell or something, but it does nothing really to help you combo off. I guess you could Clique yourself, which is unimpressive, but at least it's not entirely dead. Repeal is probably just going to be better most of the time, since bouncing a flipped delver buys you all kinds of turns, which helps you make land drops, which adds both to your ability to fight counterspells and to your ability to not fizzle. With Repeal, you can also use it to bounce a Monastery Swiftspear regardless of how big it is for just two mana. Again, we both play two main already, maybe two more to sideboard in is where we want to be?

Fully agree. Repeal is better in most situations, especially against UR Delver. It also helps you deal with tons of other bullshit people are throwing at you.

In my opinion, though, you underestimate DTT. Yeah, I know you don't care. The point is, at least how I see and play it, that it's not in there to help you set up in the first three turns. That's really not why I play this card. Actually it sucks in that stage, unless you go off. DTT shines when you go off. It's a beast as your (last) draw spell and will almost always get you the cards you want and need to continue. It's also extremely good in grindy matchups, where you just dig for more gas or protection. That's why I think I want it in my list. And even though the card is bonkers, the deck just isn't cut out for more than two copies, in my opinion. At least not my list and for my playstyle. I realize yours is different and it also depends on the meta.

[Asthereal]

(a lot of stuff)
There is just no arguing with you.
I am inexperienced, and so I am wrong.
That's basically it.

You waste your time and sideboard slots with a bad card.
This is my very inexperienced opinion. Yet I am right.

Your latest reasons:
1. Costs three mana, draws two cards, at instant speed. This is a good thing for this deck. It is on-time for setup, and useful mid-combo. 3 mana for +1 card is NOT good. It is bad. Unless the two cards are awesome. Like DDT awesome. Which they are probably not since your opponent gets to pick the best one and send it to the grave. Otherwise it is just overpriced. In this deck Meditate is the norm. One card less I could live with for 3 mana, not two. Draw +1 should cost 2 mana max.
2. Is good in situations where the opponent does not know the contents of your hand, which will be most of the time. In most situations there is an obvious best choice no matter the hand. And apart from that you are using this as a refill your hand card (at least that's what you said). +1 is a terrible filler, and every opponent knows for an empty hand business is good, cantrips are okay and the rest is bad. It's not that complicated.
3. Is still worth casting even when you have no graveyard, or when the opponent knows what is in your hand, because it is still card advantage, which is something lacking in this deck. There are many random card advantage cards in blue. That in itself is no reason to run all of them.
4. Is a strong card in a metagame where heavy discard-based decks operate, or a strong sideboard card in a metagame where that matchup would come up.I disagree with the notion that it would be a strong card in such a meta, but apart from that the meta isn't like that at all. The biggest discard decks (Jund and Pox) are less popular than six months ago.

All in all you are much better off doing either of these:
a. Side in proper answers to the discard spells you fear so much. Divert springs to mind, but Flusterstorm and cards like that should be fine to keep Hymns and Seizes at bay.
b. Side in a proper refiller, like Dig Through Time.
c. Stop worrying. When the game goes long, you have more Islands. If you have as much experience as you claim to have, you should know you can actually win without High Tide if you reach 6+ Islands. The longer the games go, the better your chances normally are. More stuff to Snapcast, more Islands to untap. And let's face it, this deck was no real contender before. Do you really expect it to be one with Murmurs from Beyond? DDT might take it there. Try to focus on that.

[benthetenor]

Alright, put your money where your mouth is: name me one card that will give you a +1 or better to card advantage for 3 mana or less at instant speed that is Legacy legal. Seeing as we are already maxed out on Meditate, that is out. Three Wishes also does not qualify as it cannot be used prior to the turn you are going off. These are my requirements, as any spell that costs more than 3 is basically uncastable, and I require card advantage in the setup turns.

[Darkenslight]

There is just no arguing with you.
I am inexperienced, and so I am wrong.
That's basically it.

You waste your time and sideboard slots with a bad card.
This is my very inexperienced opinion. Yet I am right.

Your latest reasons:
1. Costs three mana, draws two cards, at instant speed. This is a good thing for this deck. It is on-time for setup, and useful mid-combo. 3 mana for +1 card is NOT good. It is bad. Unless the two cards are awesome. Like DDT awesome. Which they are probably not since your opponent gets to pick the best one and send it to the grave. Otherwise it is just overpriced. In this deck Meditate is the norm. One card less I could live with for 3 mana, not two. Draw +1 should cost 2 mana max.
2. Is good in situations where the opponent does not know the contents of your hand, which will be most of the time. In most situations there is an obvious best choice no matter the hand. And apart from that you are using this as a refill your hand card (at least that's what you said). +1 is a terrible filler, and every opponent knows for an empty hand business is good, cantrips are okay and the rest is bad. It's not that complicated.
3. Is still worth casting even when you have no graveyard, or when the opponent knows what is in your hand, because it is still card advantage, which is something lacking in this deck. There are many random card advantage cards in blue. That in itself is no reason to run all of them.
4. Is a strong card in a metagame where heavy discard-based decks operate, or a strong sideboard card in a metagame where that matchup would come up.I disagree with the notion that it would be a strong card in such a meta, but apart from that the meta isn't like that at all. The biggest discard decks (Jund and Pox) are less popular than six months ago.

All in all you are much better off doing either of these:
a. Side in proper answers to the discard spells you fear so much. Divert springs to mind, but Flusterstorm and cards like that should be fine to keep Hymns and Seizes at bay.
b. Side in a proper refiller, like Dig Through Time.
c. Stop worrying. When the game goes long, you have more Islands. If you have as much experience as you claim to have, you should know you can actually win without High Tide if you reach 6+ Islands. The longer the games go, the better your chances normally are. More stuff to Snapcast, more Islands to untap. And let's face it, this deck was no real contender before. Do you really expect it to be one with Murmurs from Beyond? DDT might take it there. Try to focus on that.

Then put up the numbers. Ben has basically kept this deck alive almost single-handedly though the Delver years in Legacy. The problem is that those 4-mana cards have to be cast through Delver's taxing spells, the increases on Sphere effects, and before combo decks like Elves! go off. Four mana for a spell that doesn't actually draw you pure gas is weak compared to the spells we do have. Moreover, Murmurs in a Dig list is better as, for three mana, it not only gives you +1 cards in hand, but also makes Dig cost 2 less to cast. Fact reduces the cost of Dig more, but rarely has even card parity.

[Asthereal]

Alright, put your money where your mouth is: name me one card that will give you a +1 or better to card advantage for 3 mana or less at instant speed that is Legacy legal. Seeing as we are already maxed out on Meditate, that is out. Three Wishes also does not qualify as it cannot be used prior to the turn you are going off. These are my requirements, as any spell that costs more than 3 is basically uncastable, and I require card advantage in the setup turns.
Dig Through Time.

Not that you need an additional draw spell to board in, but if you do, at least use one that has actual power level. But anyway, the readers can decide for themselves whether they follow your lead and accept your arguments that had among them
- name calling ("you are inexprecienced and don't know what you are talking about: - Dude, you don't know me!)
- a lie ("Fact or Fiction isn't guaranteed card advantage" - it is, just pick the four card pile!)
- and faulty logic ("Fact is bad because people will always want to counter it" - which is an argument why it's good, not bad.)

or whether they accept my sound arguments why I think the card isn't good.



Ben has basically kept this deck alive almost single-handedly though the Delver years in Legacy.
Has he? I haven't seen it top-8 a major event in like six years.
I haven't heard him put up any numbers either.
How many top-8's has he had in events with 32+ competitive contenders?

[astormbrewing]

Zip up your pants, guys. It is acceptable to agree to disagree.

Question: why are we even arguing about Murmurs From Beyond and Fact or Fiction and Three Wishes? We have 4 Impulse, 4 Meditate, and 3-4 Dig Through Time, not to mention 2-4 Snapcaster Mage (and 0-2 Snap) to recast them from the graveyard. How is having a singleton Dig Through Time and Blue Sun's Zenith in the wishboard not enough?

Looks like I'll have this deck built on MTGO around Christmas, and I'll have it in paper in time for SCG DC in January. In the meantime, I'm just going to continue to lurk this thread and poke my head in occasionally.

[Redkid43]

Zip up your pants, guys. It is acceptable to agree to disagree.

Question: why are we even arguing about Murmurs From Beyond and Fact or Fiction and Three Wishes? We have 4 Impulse, 4 Meditate, and 3-4 Dig Through Time, not to mention 2-4 Snapcaster Mage (and 0-2 Snap) to recast them from the graveyard. How is having a singleton Dig Through Time and Blue Sun's Zenith in the wishboard not enough?

Looks like I'll have this deck built on MTGO around Christmas, and I'll have it in paper in time for SCG DC in January. In the meantime, I'm just going to continue to lurk this thread and poke my head in occasionally.

I said this once and I got shat all over for this.

[Asthereal]

Zip up your pants, guys. It is acceptable to agree to disagree.

Question: why are we even arguing about Murmurs From Beyond and Fact or Fiction and Three Wishes? We have 4 Impulse, 4 Meditate, and 3-4 Dig Through Time, not to mention 2-4 Snapcaster Mage (and 0-2 Snap) to recast them from the graveyard. How is having a singleton Dig Through Time and Blue Sun's Zenith in the wishboard not enough?
+1 to that, sir.

[benthetenor]

Dig Through Time.

Sorry, that costs two mana and six cards in your graveyard, and I already play it in the largest number that is supportable. Try again.

[astormbrewing]

Sorry, that costs two mana and six cards in your graveyard, and I already play it in the largest number that is supportable. Try again.

Please reply to this:


Question: why are we even arguing about Murmurs From Beyond and Fact or Fiction and Three Wishes? We have 4 Impulse, 4 Meditate, and 3-4 Dig Through Time, not to mention 2-4 Snapcaster Mage (and 0-2 Snap) to recast them from the graveyard. How is having a singleton Dig Through Time and Blue Sun's Zenith in the wishboard not enough?

[benthetenor]

My reasoning for needing additional draw spells is to fight grindy matchups against decks with lots of discard (Duress, Thoughtseize, and Hymn to Tourach). Against those decks, card selection is not enough, and cards like Divert and Flusterstorm are dead draws mid-combo. Snapcaster Mage helps, and Meditate has some situations where it can be cast effectively as a setup spell, but neither of those cards is reliable in small numbers. Additionally, Dig Through Time is not a card that I want to rely on against a deck with Deathrite Shaman and, in a Treasure Cruise format, stronger graveyard hate. Murmurs from Beyond is not good, but it is card advantage that can be cast at any point to begin to rebuild my hand against an aggressive discard situation. An argument could be made that those decks aren't around, but that's not actually an argument for whether or not I want the card, or for how good or bad the card is in helping out with what I need it to help out.

Additionally, against any deck that is trying to control the game (Miracles is a good example), having the ability to actually add cards to our hand, rather than just filter with the cards in our hand, is the only way to overload counterspells. It's difficult to lose to a control player when you have more cards and more mana than they do.

[Asthereal]

Try again.
Nope. Astormbrewing is right.
I have presented my arguments, you have yours.
We should leave it at that.

[benthetenor]

As I said, all talk.

One thing I've been thinking about lately is that, if we really, really want to beat UR-base Delver decks, a splash has some merit. I'm definitely against a splash in all but the most dire circumstances, but if sticking to mono-blue doesn't do it against the most popular deck in the format, the only options we're left with are splash or play something else. It happened when the old Canadian Threshold decks were playing with Meddling Mage as a way to regain parity and fight on, and I wouldn't recommend it for any other reason. In a red splash, there are quite a few options, but one that is interesting to me is Electrickery. I could see some merit to that card, given that all of the rest of the threats from that deck can at least be a bit better contained between Snap and Repeal. Though an argument can be made that, if the goal is to stop Young Pyromancer, Hydroblast is already a strong choice. The only issue there is that once it hits play, it's already too late, so if you can't counter it, you're likely going to lose anyway. It's likely worth a try if the one deck you find yourself being unable to beat is UR Delver, particularly since those lists largely don't play Wasteland.

[Asthereal]

One thing I've been thinking about lately is that, if we really, really want to beat UR-base Delver decks, a splash has some merit. I'm definitely against a splash in all but the most dire circumstances, but if sticking to mono-blue doesn't do it against the most popular deck in the format, the only options we're left with are splash or play something else. It happened when the old Canadian Threshold decks were playing with Meddling Mage as a way to regain parity and fight on, and I wouldn't recommend it for any other reason. In a red splash, there are quite a few options, but one that is interesting to me is Electrickery. I could see some merit to that card, given that all of the rest of the threats from that deck can at least be a bit better contained between Snap and Repeal. Though an argument can be made that, if the goal is to stop Young Pyromancer, Hydroblast is already a strong choice. The only issue there is that once it hits play, it's already too late, so if you can't counter it, you're likely going to lose anyway. It's likely worth a try if the one deck you find yourself being unable to beat is UR Delver, particularly since those lists largely don't play Wasteland.
I'm not sure a splash will be necessary, but I can definitely see a case be made for the inclusion of a couple of Hydroblasts. Usually I am not a fan of the kill the beatstick plan in combo, but in this case Hydroblast not only counters Young Pyro, it also helps counter opposing REB/Pyroblasts, which we will definitely face in a fair amount.

[astormbrewing]

If you look back 7-9 years, this deck used to splash White for Orim's Chant. I don't think splashing is necessary.

With regards to these arguments: it's all theoretical. Unless you can post good results at events, everything you suggest is theory and opinion. Show how it works!

[Spigore]

@Ben, ofcourse you want to beat UR-delver with Solidarity! What kind of question is that? I think one of the main reasons to play tournaments is to either top8 or win.

@All, I think you should start taking the list that Seraphus shared with us from a starting point and tweak it to your personal taste.
I've had some talk about the list with him about it and he has played quite the number of games online.
Couple of months ago, I suggested running Pact of Negation to him and finally it starts to fit well in the current meta.


Theorycrafting is all fun and stuff, but it's time that people actually start posting results, reports, numbers, likes and dislikes about cards.
I've played Soli in the past and had a blast, putting up some decent top4/8 finishes at my local game store. I'm more than willing to return to the deck, but this ranting in this thread just doesn't really pull a player back.
Meanwhile I'll keep in touch with my buddy Seraphus. 9/10 Times of sharing info here gets theorycrafted to the bin.

[astormbrewing]

9/10 Times of sharing info here gets theorycrafted to the bin.

Yeah, I think I'm going to post less until I get to play this Winter and can give actual results.

[Van Phanel]

Sorry, that costs two mana and six cards in your graveyard, and I already play it in the largest number that is supportable. Try again.

So, if experience matters to you, trust me that I know a thing or two about the deck and I would play 4 Flash of Insight before even considering Murmurs from Beyond. Flash gives you the same +1 cardadvantage for 2U (you get to draw a card and have the Flash in your grave), can not be countered (even if they wanted to) and does some other things - most notably turning a nonlethal Brain Freeze into a relevant spell. Please note that I am not (yet) making an argument for Flash considering how graveyard dependant current lists seem to be, just an argument against Murmurs.


That said, I may or may not be back playing the deck depending on how well it performs for me in testing. Is there any kind of consensus current list to start from?

I'm guessing 2 Dig Through Time (why DDT by the way? Wouldn't DTT be the correct acronym?) 1-2 Snapcaster. I'll make sure to read the recent discussion since KTK made its impact, but some kind of starting point would be great.

So I have no clue about the current meta aside from the basics, but considering the format is looking pretty blue since KTK, cutting Remand seems to be the wrong way to me considering it's both good against counters and against Delve-Cards. Though I do concede that Snapcaster might be doing a similar thing if Deathrite isn't an issue (Is it?).

[Spigore]

Is there any kind of consensus current list to start from?


If you're looking at a good starting point, speak to Seraphus about his current list. He's very positive about how it plays and he is putting up some nice numbers online.
His list is in this thread a couple of pages back.

I leave the honor to Seraphus himself to comment/reply on his deck though.

[JDK]

@Van Phanel
Hoi ;)

Since this is a fringe deck with very few players actually playing in real matches, there is no consensus, what so ever.
I'd recommend my list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12086-Deck-Solidarity&p=844472&viewfull=1#post844472) as a starting point, as you can easily shift numbers to your liking and it's been working for me so far.

[benthetenor]

So, if experience matters to you, trust me that I know a thing or two about the deck and I would play 4 Flash of Insight before even considering Murmurs from Beyond. Flash gives you the same +1 cardadvantage for 2U (you get to draw a card and have the Flash in your grave), can not be countered (even if they wanted to) and does some other things - most notably turning a nonlethal Brain Freeze into a relevant spell. Please note that I am not (yet) making an argument for Flash considering how graveyard dependant current lists seem to be, just an argument against Murmurs.


I'm certainly not doubting your experience, but to get +1 card advantage from Flash of Insight, you have to pay 5. You can spread it over two turns, or you can flip it off of a Brain Freeze and only pay 2, but it doesn't give you card advantage for 2U. It's not card advantage until it's cast from the graveyard, at which point it's not really any different from an Opt off of a Snapcaster Mage. Snapcaster Mage also does a lot of what Flash of Insight does with Brain Freeze, in that if you have a Snapcaster Mage in hand, your Brain Freeze becomes a tutor for anything in your deck. It's not quite a smooth as Flash of Insight in that sense, simply because Snapcaster Mage has to be in hand to make it work, but it does more or less the same thing from a making-Brain-Freeze-not-a-dead-card standpoint.

Now, I'm not going to say that Murmurs is a better card than Flash of Insight, because Flash of Insight is awesome. I will say that Flash of Insight fights with Snapcaster Mage whereas Murmurs from Beyond plays nicely, and will also give you card advantage even under a Rest in Peace.

[Van Phanel]

@benthetenor:

Well considering you want Murmurs for grindy matchups, having a random card and a card that says [1U, exile X blue cards from your graveyard: Impulse for X] seems stronger than getting 2 cards out of three that your opponent knows.

I agree that (espescially with lists playing 3 Snapcaster and Dig) Flash would be stretching the graveyard reliance. By all means do go ahead and play Murmurs if it suits you.

[Seraphus]

If you're looking at a good starting point, speak to Seraphus about his current list. He's very positive about how it plays and he is putting up some nice numbers online.
His list is in this thread a couple of pages back.

I leave the honor to Seraphus himself to comment/reply on his deck though.

Thanks my friend -

I do not write a breakdown or reports since idk when cause everyone one here is involved in some kind of autistic conversation proposing things/lists that experienced players know that at the start it won't work...

As solidarity goes - and now you will have to pay attention and put up with me or continue your autistic speech and ignore my opinion - I have 8 years of playing with solidarity (since I start to play with it I never entered a Legacy tournament with any other deck, and I rarely play other format competitively).

I had my fare share of wins with the deck but also and more important I had many hard lessons with the deck.

I know the history bit by bit, and I know 90% of the possibilities of the deck.
Do not be mistaken when I say I only play with solidarity since every competitive player know that you need a Gauntlet to train and I do have that (we wasted so many commons and uncommons to do proxies LOL).

So to the task in hand:
the 2 most important aspects of playing solidarity:

1.balance: balancing your list choice, knowing that you wont win everything, balancing your hand choice that will give you more details of a suppose posture that you will take to approach the game (fast combo or controlled combo) and balancing your plays since Soli is a deck that plays many of its spells in eot you will have to think about 3 turns (the current one, your turn and your op next turn).

2.purpose: admit all your plays will be a mistake but still you have an objective that is to win the game, solidarity will adapt to a match because in 100% of your plays you will have 3 choices or more always - so know why you are playing at the moment you play (count with you adversary replies).

List and "whys" (I might change 1 or 2 things but this is a strong solid list):

12 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
1 Turnabout
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
1 Brain Freeze
2 Opt
3 Peek
1 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Cunning Wish
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 3 Rebuild
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 2 Swan Song

let's start by the lands: since it was suggested to play with more fetches I might say I disagree simply putting it: atm we face a metagame focused on midrange fast aggro decks (UR, UWR, Burn etc) plus control decks like miracles (slow) and like team america (midrange control); many of this decks: 1 have stifle, 2 you need to watch very carefully for your life cause of burn spells, 3 bind you in the flow they wish the game goes (discard and countering). Having too much fetches is going to influence the impact that getting lands has in your life total, in your board position and you will be relying too much on the resolution of their ability. (I admit adding 1 more fetch for an island thou).

4 Htides: I only use one wish, even if I didn't use only 1 wish I would like to waste an effort and 3 mana to get a card that I need in extreme quantity inside the deck - wish do not virtual extend your number of cards since it's easier to counter a wish than it is a tide (that is also snapcasterable);

1 Turnabout: sometimes (specially with the Dig now) it's good to have a swissknife although I would not mid to have it has a 5th reset. Some might say that it should be good to have a 2nd snap here, however snap is relying on a target which is fizzable;

4 reset: this card is the same as HT;

2 flusterstorm: A star in the deck, the uncounterable counterspell. Flasbackable, previously it was harsh to play it (but necessary) cause it was a simple trade off 1 per 1 no cantrip nothing, however the arrival of Dig is good enough to compensate the use of it. Another thing is that you might notice the amount of 1 cmc cards they have among their own reasons they are also here to fill the grave for dig.

2 FoW: it's amazing how ambiguous FoW is in Solidarity - imo it lost its big importance for now, 2 per one is very harsh, and 70% of the time if not more the card only purpose is to allow us combo, in that aspect pact is much much better. Nothing comes for free not even FoW 1 card makes a large deal when it comes to over come the final step of losing or wining.

2 Pact of Negation: useful to allowing your combo to go through counter wars, free - totally free when combo. Snapcaster can re-use it (FoW is not snapcasterable) and atm it's stronger than FoW since aggro decks will have that terrain that gives uncounterability to creatures (that's why repeal is a much have) and spending counters like FoW on a creature is like shooting yourself in the foot - yes! even if they are canonist or tegg...

4 brainstorm: do I have to write this one?

3 Dig through time: a spell that innovates a strengthens the deck, card advantage at its best however think wisely what to remove and not remove - 4 would be too much, no grave could keep feeding such number of these beasts and snapcaster.

1 Brain freeze: about this all refer only to the quantity as you know many of the uses that the card has. There's only one match when you want 2-3 of these: vs counterbalance. and that's it...

2 opt: the only argument valid here concerning replacements is Thought Scour; personally I do not like randomness (and I explain the why I don't like the card a few posts back). why 3 peeks and 2 opt: opt is a non-interactive card, which represent almost none or no threat at all for your op (unless you are mana screw or something).

3 peek: peek gives info details and cantrips, in a deck where you only run 2 FoW you need to be informed about your op game plan + it threats the bluffs your op might be doing etc - pre combo is wonderful, but also as a turn1 play. It helps alot with the 3 turns plan I mention before. So my description of peek as a choice explains the quantity of it.

1 snap: why 1 and only one: only works with 2 HT to generate mana, can be disrupted etc... However it is not a good idea to replace it for a snapcaster as Snap is an important small piece to avoid fizzles

2 snapcaster mage: well the best card that the deck had for the last idk 4-5 years. Even with the use of Dig, it is very good and reliable card to both pre combo as during combo. However it's not possible to fit the third one since it would create a situation where you would end up with more casters in hand than spells in grave.

3 repeal: 1 mana bounce delver draw card?! a spell that can resolve and delay our op without drawbacks? another bounce for snapcaster? yes please

3 remand: similar to repeal but with advantage of target our own spells and together with snapcaster can make a killing your op much more easy than it use to be.

4 meditate: why on earth would be a good idea to pay 6 (3 wish 3 meditate) for a draw 4 cards? with so much draw and cantrips you want these as a 4 of in the deck, today solidarity does not combo only with HT+reset+meditate...

1 wish: I wish I could have more wish to wish for more wish-able things... Joking. 1 is enough because you either want this only in case of X and not to set up a kill or the combo itself (for that you have snapcaster+the bouncers).

SB will come on another post sorry...

[P-E]

awesome post Seraphus

how do you battle against DnT (spirit of the labyrinth+thalia+mor) ?

[Seraphus]

Thalia is not something that turns the game unplayable, however it does delay the game but if they do not clock you out you can double bouncing (resp to mothers hability).
You cannot alow to lock you out. The deck is now playable on t3. Replace the 2 pacts and add swan song and probably add more effective pieces of combo. Try to out run them... I would risk and say to add rebuilds in cause of cannonist vials and etc... Remember that Dig is not a draw spell it is a put into your hand spell...

[Dziga Murnau]

Seraphus, I've got a noob question about this deck. If we always Brain Freeze our opponets on their turn after upkeep step, how do we win before our next turn, when we have to pay for Pact of Negation? If we do not make our play in response to some drawing spell, your list demands to find that single Wish and make the opponent draw a card, isn't it?

I was happy with the easiness that deck provides to Brain Freeze wins (6 spells, Brain Freeze, Snapcaster Mage, Brain Freeze) and then it struck me that opponent will die only his or her next turn, and before that I'll have to pay for all those Pacts with real mana.

[Seraphus]

Seraphus, I've got a noob question about this deck. If we always Brain Freeze our opponets on their turn after upkeep step, how do we win before our next turn, when we have to pay for Pact of Negation? If we do not make our play in response to some drawing spell, your list demands to find that single Wish and make the opponent draw a card, isn't it?

I was happy with the easiness that deck provides to Brain Freeze wins (6 spells, Brain Freeze, Snapcaster Mage, Brain Freeze) and then it struck me that opponent will die only his or her next turn, and before that I'll have to pay for all those Pacts with real mana.

Meditate :tongue: or in resp to some draw spell (as I said plan very well, measure the risks and profits).

[Dziga Murnau]

Meditate :tongue: or in resp to some draw spell (as I said plan very well, measure the risks and profits).
We skip our turn with Meditate! That's what I was missing. Thank you. I guess, I just used to finish opponents the same turn I tide with Zenith, when played Spiral Tide. Question was really noob :smile:

[Van Phanel]

Thank you Seraphus. Even though I'm not sure whether I'm onboard with every single one of your cardchoices, I like how on the one hand you don't mind killing sacred cows and on the other hand realize how this is a f***ing hard to play deck and despite being reasonably good with it you're far from perfect.

I find most others in this thread lacking this humility. Everyone considering playing this deck seriously will need to accept that they WILL be making at least one clear mistake every four rounds or so and dozens of smaller ones. Deep6er did in his time (even though he would have never openly admitted it, he was perfectly aware); Herbig did and so did I when I was busy making Top8s and regularly winning local tournaments a few years ago.

I'll build the deck on MtGO with some list or another and pop back in here from time to time when I know more about the deck and the format.

[P-E]

i think polymorphist's jest deserves some slots in side against DnT

[Seraphus]

Thank you Seraphus. Even though I'm not sure whether I'm onboard with every single one of your cardchoices, I like how on the one hand you don't mind killing sacred cows and on the other hand realize how this is a f***ing hard to play deck and despite being reasonably good with it you're far from perfect.

I find most others in this thread lacking this humility. Everyone considering playing this deck seriously will need to accept that they WILL be making at least one clear mistake every four rounds or so and dozens of smaller ones. Deep6er did in his time (even though he would have never openly admitted it, he was perfectly aware); Herbig did and so did I when I was busy making Top8s and regularly winning local tournaments a few years ago.

I'll build the deck on MtGO with some list or another and pop back in here from time to time when I know more about the deck and the format.

Thank you =) my first list was your 2 cryptics one

@P-E: hum interesting now with the new goblins and haterators like DnT let me think about the sb (which is the only thing I wont say that it is locked, also it's something I am struggling with).

[benthetenor]

@Seraphus - I like the list. What are your feelings on Impulse with Dig Through Time in the format? I played around with a list without Impulse when coming back to this deck recently, but I didn't play with it enough to get a feel for whether or not cutting Impulse was a good move.

[Seraphus]

@Seraphus - I like the list. What are your feelings on Impulse with Dig Through Time in the format? I played around with a list without Impulse when coming back to this deck recently, but I didn't play with it enough to get a feel for whether or not cutting Impulse was a good move.

Well, I would say that it's impossible to play with everything, and has you read on my breakthrough I raised the amount of cantrip cards just to feed Dig, so in a general note I would say that to play with Dig and snapcaster is amazing (both cards add too much to the deck) to not play with both of them is weakening the deck imo but also they need that the context around them, or rather saying, the build in which they are inserted feeds them well enough - snapcaster in quality dig in quantity. It's the first time we really have a card advantage - FoI has it's limitations with cards like deathrite and ooze in the field - that real is good without drawbacks.

So summing it up: there's no space for impulse, you'll want to t2 remand, repeal, peek, opt, bs+fetch, flusterstorm, etc.

[Asthereal]

So summing it up: there's no space for impulse, you'll want to t2 remand, repeal, peek, opt, bs+fetch, flusterstorm, etc.
I'm not sure yet. Your list focusses on stalling technique with 3x Remand, 3x Repeal plus six combo protection counterspells. That's 12 cards to interact with stuff from the opponent. In such a list perhaps Impulse isn't needed as much. But on the other hand, making sure you hit your land drops can be challenging, since you have less cantrips to search for them. How often would you say you miss a land drop you really wanted to make?

My current list has three Impulses still. It's good to find lands, and it does work mid combo if needed. On the other hand I play less interaction, so I have more room for stuff like that. Not that I like my current list yet, though. It feels unbalanced. As soon as I work it out, I will post it here. Seriously, it is HARD to build a list that I really like!

[benthetenor]

Well, I would say that it's impossible to play with everything, and has you read on my breakthrough I raised the amount of cantrip cards just to feed Dig, so in a general note I would say that to play with Dig and snapcaster is amazing (both cards add too much to the deck) to not play with both of them is weakening the deck imo but also they need that the context around them, or rather saying, the build in which they are inserted feeds them well enough - snapcaster in quality dig in quantity. It's the first time we really have a card advantage - FoI has it's limitations with cards like deathrite and ooze in the field - that real is good without drawbacks.

So summing it up: there's no space for impulse, you'll want to t2 remand, repeal, peek, opt, bs+fetch, flusterstorm, etc.

That's pretty much what I assumed. I've played through your list a little bit and I like it more and more. The only things I'm hesitant on is only having a singleton Cunning Wish and Brain Freeze. I understand the reasoning for both, just not a fan on what it makes the deck feel like. Perhaps that's me over-thinking it, though. I have always been a fan of Remand, and I think that cutting 2 drops to fit some in (including some Snapcaster Mages, which often function similarly) is brilliant.

[Seraphus]

Regarding a list: you wont find a list that will win everything, not in solidarity not in miracle not in wtv deck you might think of. And I hope that no-one does it with solidarity otherwise the deck would risk a bannhammer...

@Asthereal (I didn't know there was someone beside Rene playing the deck there): I don't lack cantrips on the deck I actually have more cantrips than the list before Dig. If you read carefully my justification you will understand that I addressed that problem of being unbalanced.

to be continue