[Deck] Solidarity

[Asthereal]

@Asthereal (I didn't know there was someone beside Rene playing the deck there): I don't lack cantrips on the deck I actually have more cantrips than the list before Dig. If you read carefully my justification you will understand that I addressed that problem of being unbalanced.
The new toy DTT has sparked interest in this deck.
Even a SCG grinder has picked it up for a few dailies on MTGO.
Joe has quite a few people watching his Twitch, so that'll help.

And I expect Bahamuth will try it out again also.
He switched to Storm a long time ago because it was more consistent, but I know he likes the deck. :smile:

About the list: You count Remands and Repeals as cantrips, I see.
Those don't include card selection. If you don't have the land on top, you don't find it.
Brainstorm, Opt and Impulse to me are mostly cards that guarantee my land drops for the first few turns.
I cut one Impulse because I felt the meta is too fast for hands with 2 or 3 copies, but I always like to see one early.
You explained you want to use turn 2 to play Repeal or Remand instead. It's a different approach, hence my question.


How often would you say you miss a land drop you really wanted to make?

[Seraphus]

The new toy DTT has sparked interest in this deck.
Even a SCG grinder has picked it up for a few dailies on MTGO.
Joe has quite a few people watching his Twitch, so that'll help.

And I expect Bahamuth will try it out again also.
He switched to Storm a long time ago because it was more consistent, but I know he likes the deck. :smile:

About the list: You count Remands and Repeals as cantrips, I see.
Those don't include card selection. If you don't have the land on top, you don't find it.
Brainstorm, Opt and Impulse to me are mostly cards that guarantee my land drops for the first few turns.
I cut one Impulse because I felt the meta is too fast for hands with 2 or 3 copies, but I always like to see one early.
You explained you want to use turn 2 to play Repeal or Remand instead. It's a different approach, hence my question.

Sorry I wanted to finish my post but too much happening at work atm...
I would say that you might have an higher rate of being mana screwed if you do not play it well. However you can very well defend yourself with 2 lands and many times combo with 3. Also I do not want to extend the game has you mention. I will do it if I have to but not too much otherwise cards like flusterstorm might lose their power...

[Seraphus]

Update:

12 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
1 Turnabout
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
1 Brain Freeze
2 Opt
3 Peek
1 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Cunning Wish
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Rebuild
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 2 Polymorphist's Jest (no idea if it works against DnT)
SB: 1 Force of Will

Needed +1 FoW on SB due to ANT decks

[astormbrewing]

Needed +1 FoW on SB due to ANT decks

Could you explain this, please?

[Ralf]

Could you explain this, please?

ANT is faster than Solidarity.
You cannot expect playing pact of negation early game because you cannot pay its upkeep cost.
So, in other words, 2 FOW main deck are too few to prevent ANT from comboying.
And with their discard you cannot really expect surviving with only 2 Mtraps coming from the side.
Even if Ravenous trap could catch them once, you are not going to shear the same sheep twice :D

@ Seraphus: I've personnally cut the 2nd PoN for another FOW MD. I have also swapped -1 DTT for +1 SCM.

SB:
+2 Echoing truth
-1 P.Jest
-1 Rebuild
+1 Hurkyl's recall
-1 FOW

[astormbrewing]

ANT is faster than Solidarity.
You cannot expect playing pact of negation early game because you cannot pay its upkeep cost.
So, in other words, 2 FOW main deck are too few to prevent ANT from comboying.
And with their discard you cannot really expect surviving with only 2 Mtraps coming from the side.
Even if Ravenous trap could catch them once, you are not going to shear the same sheep twice :D

I was thinking Mindbreak Trap or more Flusterstorms would be solid answers, but that makes sense.

[Darkenslight]

I was thinking Mindbreak Trap or more Flusterstorms would be solid answers, but that makes sense.

Honestly, in the current format, both Stifle and Trickbind are arguably better, especially the latter, as it counters Gris/Sneak activations; Miracle triggers (aside from a blind 2-flip), Prowess from Swiftspears and many more besides. However, MBT and Fluster are good against other Flusterstorms etc.

[JDK]

The current format revolves around a shitload of counterspells in the form of Pyroblast, Flusterstorm and whatnot. I'd rather be able to fight those than to use cute activation stifling.

[Seraphus]

I never want a FoW in hand to be "defensive" unless it is to counter great treats that I cannot deal otherwise... Swapping 2 cards per 1 is bad no matter what the only match up I want FoW and not PoN is combo storm. I will never replace a mage for a cardadvantage, sorry, but Dig, although different from mage, it is good per si since it doesnt requier any specific card to be good.

I told you guys that I real am struggling with the sb. Maybe twincast is a good option and a extra snap in sb to allow t3 combo. I would not use recall cause the cmc 2 is a common x on chalice and the lack of ciclying hability is not so usefull... affinity if such thing is dangerous we (on my list) are supported by 3 repeal 3 remand so it is an easy game. The polymorphist is not a great solition for the labirynth dude. I prefer a lower cmc card or a "put into your hand card" or Three Wishes. Swan song is a so-so card. As Ant is a MU of time, bluffs and patience and giving a clock to our op is not good enough for me to justify the counter hability I would say to add the 3rd fluster and a twicast or 1 echoing truth. Flusterstorm is and always will be the best answer to stifle never ever crack a fetch without a plan. Peek btw is also usefull...
Do not forget that having the 2nd BF in vs storm is a good idea since we will have Ravenous trap, let them combo if they are willing to go for it they might need a draw who knows...

This is my views over your questions you might not be with agreevance with me but please justife why so we can all move on and build a better deck...

[Ralf]

I never want a FoW in hand to be "defensive" unless it is to counter great treats that I cannot deal otherwise... Swapping 2 cards per 1 is bad no matter what the only match up I want FoW and not PoN is combo storm. I will never replace a mage for a cardadvantage, sorry, but Dig, although different from mage, it is good per si since it doesnt requier any specific card to be good.

I told you guys that I real am struggling with the sb. Maybe twincast is a good option and a extra snap in sb to allow t3 combo. I would not use recall cause the cmc 2 is a common x on chalice and the lack of ciclying hability is not so usefull... affinity if such thing is dangerous we (on my list) are supported by 3 repeal 3 remand so it is an easy game. The polymorphist is not a great solition for the labirynth dude. I prefer a lower cmc card or a "put into your hand card" or Three Wishes. Swan song is a so-so card. As Ant is a MU of time, bluffs and patience and giving a clock to our op is not good enough for me to justify the counter hability I would say to add the 3rd fluster and a twicast or 1 echoing truth. Flusterstorm is and always will be the best answer to stifle never ever crack a fetch without a plan. Peek btw is also usefull...
Do not forget that having the 2nd BF in vs storm is a good idea since we will have Ravenous trap, let them combo if they are willing to go for it they might need a draw who knows...

This is my views over your questions you might not be with agreevance with me but please justife why so we can all move on and build a better deck...

Yes, but with only 1 cunning wish, you are very soft to chalice @ 1, broken combo & other threats. That's where FOW shines here.
FOW card disadvantage is not that much of an issue either. With 4 medidate MD, I usually FOW an early threat and use medidate to refill my hand.
As to why 3 SCM & 2 DTT ? Simply because SCM:
- can be generally played as soon as you have 3 opened mana
- does not need 6 cards in the graveyard to be cast
- can be at least an ambush viper and buy you a turn
- wins me more game than DTT as I found that it is easier to bank on replaying a spell (Reset, Medidate, whatever) already in the yard than banking on finding it with DTT, because you'll never be sure that you will find it in the 7 cards you look at. SCM is more reliable than DTT in this particular case even if DTT gives you 2 cards instead of only one. And I am more often in the case where replaying a spell would grant me an easy victory than the other way round.

[deadlock]

- wins me more game than DTT as I found that it is easier to bank on replaying a spell (Reset, Medidate, whatever) already in the yard than banking on finding it with DTT, because you'll never be sure that you will find it in the 7 cards you look at. SCM is more reliable than DTT in this particular case even if DTT gives you 2 cards instead of only one. And I am more often in the case where replaying a spell would grant me an easy victory than the other way round.

You already said it yourself, why it is more useful to have the 3 DTT / 2 SCM split. DTT is a strong as a setup spell and while comboing, it is a more powerful Impulse. SCM on the otherhand strength is mainly while comboing, as you already need the key spells in hand or better already casted.
The 3 / 2 split between really feels right and is a strong addition to the deck.

I just started to get back into MTG again after 2 years, but in ancient times Disrupt was used in this deck to fight Hymn and other stuff. It could be useful against all these tempo decks, which are pretty tight on mana usually. Maybe not what you are looking for, but just an idea to toy around with ;)

[Ralf]

You already said it yourself, why it is more useful to have the 3 DTT / 2 SCM split. DTT is a strong as a setup spell and while comboing, it is a more powerful Impulse. SCM on the otherhand strength is mainly while comboing, as you already need the key spells in hand or better already casted.
The 3 / 2 split between really feels right and is a strong addition to the deck.

I just started to get back into MTG again after 2 years, but in ancient times Disrupt was used in this deck to fight Hymn and other stuff. It could be useful against all these tempo decks, which are pretty tight on mana usually. Maybe not what you are looking for, but just an idea to toy around with ;)

Do as it suits you.
I gave my point of view based on my testing and you only picked up the last part of it:

1) You get to play your first SCM before your first DTT (because he is ready by T3): brainstorm, fluster, repeal, what have you...
2) You get to play your first DTT before your second SCM (as another setup spell)
3) You get to play your second SCM before your second DTT (during the combo turn)

So, that's 3 SCM/ 2 DTT.

As far as "disrupt" is concerned, I have played with 2, then with 4, to finally completely get rid of it, because you cannot really play conditionnal counters save flusterstorm.
The "screw you, I draw one" is real, but you'll eventually end up reading 'pay 1 more for your own spell, draw a card'...

[Seraphus]

Chalice at 1 is easy since it is usual that those decks are very fragile to remand. When chalice 1 happens I combo with reset only as I tend to delay wtv hits the table on the other side - sometimes snapcaster is the hero and goes for the charge. Don't forget 1 thing FoW is a 2 of in my list but its still there and at the 3 turn I already saw at least 5 new cards, if I Dig, it will be 12 cards. Also I am really more and more attracted to use Twincast in sb.

You are simply compare both cards directly and not what the deck requires or need; SM is a card that you only need one of to combo, I see it more as a replacement of C.Wish then of any draw spell. Many times I use the mage as a mana generator so I can use my repeals on it and keep feeding grave and hand - it helps not having dead cards in hand.
BTW: DDT is playable at t3 as well: t3 you atleast have played 2 fetchs, 3cmc card which are 5 cards in grave plus 3 mana = 8 mana.

@dead

Sorry mate to disappoint you on disrupt but nowadays it's such a weak card with deathrithe on the field and if you or on the draw, forget it - it's my advice. However I might be playing it wrong...

[Ralf]

Chalice at 1 is easy since it is usual that those decks are very fragile to remand. When chalice 1 happens I combo with reset only as I tend to delay wtv hits the table on the other side - sometimes snapcaster is the hero and goes for the charge. Don't forget 1 thing FoW is a 2 of in my list but its still there and at the 3 turn I already saw at least 5 new cards, if I Dig, it will be 12 cards. Also I am really more and more attracted to use Twincast in sb.

You are simply compare both cards directly and not what the deck requires or need; SM is a card that you only need one of to combo, I see it more as a replacement of C.Wish then of any draw spell. Many times I use the mage as a mana generator so I can use my repeals on it and keep feeding grave and hand - it helps not having dead cards in hand.



Actually, I'm comparing boths with what the deck needs.
And the deck needs to have something to do on T3/T4.
I tested 3 DTT and ended too many times to my licking without being able to cast it by T3/T4 for various reasons:
- not enough cards in the grave (6 fetchs, 11 cantrips @ 1 cmc, 5 counters @ 0 or 1 not counting PoN, 3 remand, 3 repeal, 1 snap etc...) and yet this was my n°1 issue. Maybe we are still too soft on the fetch count.
- not protected enough to be safely cast is my n°2 issue. Soft counters against instant & sorcery are real early game and you don't always have a hand where losing a DTT (+ removing 5-6 cards from your grave) does not matter. This is even more true when your medidate, rotting in your hands, cannot be used as a setup spell because you are potentially facing lethal with 2 attack phases/ or you want it protected. On the other hand, countering SCM is harder and eventually very few players are keen to counter a flashbacked brainstorm/opt/repeal or/and sometimes it is the chump blocker I needed to get at 4 lands and use a "protected" medidate as a setup spell.

[Seraphus]

Actually, I'm comparing boths with what the deck needs.
And the deck needs to have something to do on T3/T4.
I tested 3 DTT and ended too many times to my licking without being able to cast it by T3/T4 for various reasons:
- not enough cards in the grave (6 fetchs, 11 cantrips @ 1 cmc, 5 counters @ 0 or 1 not counting PoN, 3 remand, 3 repeal, 1 snap etc...) and yet this was my n°1 issue. Maybe we are still too soft on the fetch count.
- not protected enough to be safely cast is my n°2 issue. Soft counters against instant & sorcery are real early game and you don't always have a hand where losing a DTT (+ removing 5-6 cards from your grave) does not matter. This is even more true when your medidate, rotting in your hands, cannot be used as a setup spell because you are potentially facing lethal with 2 attack phases/ or you want it protected. On the other hand, countering SCM is harder and eventually very few players are keen to counter a flashbacked brainstorm/opt/repeal or/and sometimes it is the chump blocker I needed to get at 4 lands and use a "protected" medidate as a setup spell.

I agree on the fetch point: +1 more would be good I think - bring also more shuffle effect for BS...

The decks you are referring to are decks like UR/delver right? However those decks keep you busy by obligate you to play the cantrips (opt, peek, BS) and remand/repeal/fluster until 3-4 turn only when they exhaust their clock and you stabilize the table is when you start pressuring them for set up our hand to combo... It's basically turn the clock into our favour...

[Ralf]

I agree on the fetch point: +1 more would be good I think - bring also more shuffle effect for BS...

The decks you are referring to are decks like UR/delver right? However those decks keep you busy by obligate you to play the cantrips (opt, peek, BS) and remand/repeal/fluster until 3-4 turn only when they exhaust their clock and you stabilize the table is when you start pressuring them for set up our hand to combo... It's basically turn the clock into our favour...

Well I'm not playing exclusively against UR Delver.
I still think Temur Delver to be the best Delver deck and thus, it is my main contender.

I crushed UWR delver, UR Delver, BUG Delver the last two weeks.
Other fair decks are a piece of cake G1. G2 & G3 are the only interesting ones.
Combo decks are...well...somehow mirror matches. I forgot how much remand is strong & unexpected vs storm.

So, basically, I'm trying to gain further % against Temur Delver.
But this is clearly another contender (far ahead of other Delver decks). Mongoose is my n°1 public enemy at the moment :mad:

[Asthereal]

Well I'm not playing exclusively against UR Delver.
I still think Temur Delver to be the best Delver deck and thus, it is my main contender.

I crushed UWR delver, UR Delver, BUG Delver the last two weeks.
Other fair decks are a piece of cake G1. G2 & G3 are the only interesting ones.
Combo decks are...well...somehow mirror matches. I forgot how much remand is strong & unexpected vs storm.

So, basically, I'm trying to gain further % against Temur Delver.
But this is clearly another contender (far ahead of other Delver decks). Mongoose is my n°1 public enemy at the moment :mad:
Yes, RUG Delver is the worst matchup for this deck.
Many counters, Stifle for our fetches or Freezes and sideboard REB/Pyroblast.
But... RUG doesn't see as much play right now as it did before.
There are quite a few popular decks right now it has trouble against.
If your list is optimalised for facing BUG, UR and UWR you should be good.

The thing with RUG is that it doesn't incorporate the new Delve toys very well. Goose doesn't like them, and many are trying Mandrills, but those take the Delve spots away from the draw spells. Simply put, if you want to use the new Delve draw spells, like most want to, RUG just isn't very appealing. I expect its popularity to keep going down for a few more months, unless the next set conatins a sweet new CMC1 guy for it.

Unless your LGS meta has a lot of stubborn RUG addicts of course. In that case you are right. :wink:

[Seraphus]

12 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
1 Turnabout
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
1 Brain Freeze
2 Opt
3 Peek
1 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Cunning Wish
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Rebuild
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Three Wishes

Last version I have played with

[Mackan]

12 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
1 Turnabout
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
1 Brain Freeze
2 Opt
3 Peek
1 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Cunning Wish
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Rebuild
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Three Wishes

Last version I have played with

Give thoughscour a go. It's secretly dark ritual drawing a card plus a semi-demonic tutor for your snapcasters.

[Seraphus]

Give thoughscour a go. It's secretly dark ritual drawing a card plus a semi-demonic tutor for your snapcasters.

Sorry but it's known as a random card that can burn too many option when you play only 1 wish 1 snap and irrelevant for 2 snapcasters since early game things are focused on having cards like fluster, remand, repeal, peek etc I can avoid stifles on fetches just by using peek... There are more important factors than this pseudo availability of cards that you talk. But this is my opinion of the card I might be wrong...

[astormbrewing]

Feline has made day 2 of GP NJ with Solidarity.

[Ralf]

Feline has made day 2 of GP NJ with Solidarity.

Just watched her interview ! Keep on Feline. Show them the power of Solidarity

[Redkid43]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpZrbo3f8kg

Interview. Go get em Feline!!

[iPhael]

Go get 'em Feline!

Hopefully she writes us a report on how things went and some insight into her list :)

[Lucipher2k]

Her list can be found here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_reset_high_tide_with.html

[Darkenslight]

Hrm, that's definitely an interesting list, with a full 8 fetches and a 3/3 split on Snapmage and DTT.

[Piceli89]

Sorry but it's known as a random card that can burn too many option when you play only 1 wish 1 snap and irrelevant for 2 snapcasters since early game things are focused on having cards like fluster, remand, repeal, peek etc I can avoid stifles on fetches just by using peek... There are more important factors than this pseudo availability of cards that you talk. But this is my opinion of the card I might be wrong...

You're right indeed. The biggest reason why Scour is unplayable in here is that you can't mill Cunning Wishes otherwise you run out of ways to win the game (this in MD BF-less lists). Repeal is also neat to undo Delvers, Swiftspears, CBs and germ tokens, which is what you have to worry about these days. It does line up poorly against Thalia and Teeg, though.

I second your choice of cutting Impulses- just outdated in 2014 Legacy- and go with Opt and Peek. I'd even maximize on those before choosing anything else simply because they're crucial in fueling Digs at the greatest speed avaiable.

Regarding Snapcaster: I'm still unsure if he can coexist with Dig. The advantage of switching to Dig as the graveyard-reliant slot is that you don't lose to wise players using Deathrite Shaman and/or removal on your Snapcaster anymore, which before were in my eyes a huge liability, and still are. I know Snapcaster offers many angles of ups (a body, possibility to attrition decks, flexibility), but Dig is probably the better usage of binned cards. Also, the fact of running both is that delving cards away with Dig becomes a real issue.
"How am I supposed to do it if I were to draw a Snapcaster afterwards? Should I leave the Tides/Resets and exile everything else, or leave cantrips? Should I not cast Dig at all?" These questions may come up and to me are a deterrent from playing both. I'd rather streamline things if possible, anytime.

Last: I'd even consider a single Twincast maindeck in a world of Treasure Cruises and to copy Dig, resulting in a nice quadruple Demonic Tutor-ish.


----
I like Feline's list in a nutshell, but it's likely that it can't fight well in a meta filled with Delver- it seems slow-ish.

[Redkid43]

Sadly no top 8 or 16 for Feline :(

Great run and a nice feature on SCG. Maybe she'll give us a report soon. Her list was great!

[JDK]

7-2 day one, 1-5 day two, still a respectable result. I still don't like her 3 CWish build, although she eventually came closer to "our" lists (as to be expected).

[Seraphus]

You're right indeed. The biggest reason why Scour is unplayable in here is that you can't mill Cunning Wishes otherwise you run out of ways to win the game (this in MD BF-less lists). Repeal is also neat to undo Delvers, Swiftspears, CBs and germ tokens, which is what you have to worry about these days. It does line up poorly against Thalia and Teeg, though.

I second your choice of cutting Impulses- just outdated in 2014 Legacy- and go with Opt and Peek. I'd even maximize on those before choosing anything else simply because they're crucial in fueling Digs at the greatest speed avaiable.

Regarding Snapcaster: I'm still unsure if he can coexist with Dig. The advantage of switching to Dig as the graveyard-reliant slot is that you don't lose to wise players using Deathrite Shaman and/or removal on your Snapcaster anymore, which before were in my eyes a huge liability, and still are. I know Snapcaster offers many angles of ups (a body, possibility to attrition decks, flexibility), but Dig is probably the better usage of binned cards. Also, the fact of running both is that delving cards away with Dig becomes a real issue.
"How am I supposed to do it if I were to draw a Snapcaster afterwards? Should I leave the Tides/Resets and exile everything else, or leave cantrips? Should I not cast Dig at all?" These questions may come up and to me are a deterrent from playing both. I'd rather streamline things if possible, anytime.

Last: I'd even consider a single Twincast maindeck in a world of Treasure Cruises and to copy Dig, resulting in a nice quadruple Demonic Tutor-ish.


----
I like Feline's list in a nutshell, but it's likely that it can't fight well in a meta filled with Delver- it seems slow-ish.

IMO you can use both just know exactly what for you are using them. As I said I tent to use Snapcaster for mana generation and combo pieces (sometimes it's use as 3 mana fluster or if I have some doubts about playing the combo on the next turn 3 mana peek)... We have in my list the following: 3 peeks 2 opt + eventually 3 repeal as a 1 cmc cards we really do not need that much to be in a rush to play Dig.

[Redkid43]

Her list was seriously interesting with a more emphasis of both SCM and Dig and no turnabouts, instead relying on Reset and Snap to get there--1 Turnabout in the board though. Those V Cliques were awesome in the board.

Maybe she found a nice medium with both Snapcaster and Dig?

[Piceli89]

IMO you can use both just know exactly what for you are using them. As I said I tent to use Snapcaster for mana generation and combo pieces (sometimes it's use as 3 mana fluster or if I have some doubts about playing the combo on the next turn 3 mana peek)... We have in my list the following: 3 peeks 2 opt + eventually 3 repeal as a 1 cmc cards we really do not need that much to be in a rush to play Dig.


Man you might change your nickname but you continue to be an Egocentric obnoxious character... Who is leeching who? Whatever you write down here IDC I will ignore since it was possible to maintain a civil tone until now and I was glad to able to discuss with people about the deck that I Love so man it's not needed that kind of shit...

How exactly is Snapcaster reliable as mana generator? If you mean High Tide I can understand but Snapping Snapcaster seems just the perfect way to lose a match to otherwise dead cards, and I wouldn't lean towards that line seeing how the format was filled with cheap removal (and predictably even more in the near future with the victory of UWr Blade at gp NJ).

Instead of running 2/3s wouldn't be it better to go full on the cc1 cantrips and maximize Digs? Among other things cc1 cantrips also increase Flusterstorm's effectiveness and help in avoiding to get stucked on 1land hands which is a great problem for this deck given the lack of Preordain and Ponder. Ideally I would like to spend my first 2 turns sculpting my hand/lands and then having Dig active to start chain resources.

You may be right that a halfway configuration with Repeals gives more resistance in the face of the opponent, especially when considering a turn one Delver; on the other hand there are times when Repeal is suboptimal and/or a greater control over our draws would be good.
That's why I'm advocating on this deck to start "imitating" Tendrils' template (more cc1 cantrips, more selection, more hand info, less clunk) by retaining its advantages at the same time.

I have to admit I was wrong on Impulse, as suboptimal as it seems to be it's sadly a necessity to put away Brainstorm chaff while comboing.

[Seraphus]

How exactly is Snapcaster reliable as mana generator? If you mean High Tide I can understand but Snapping Snapcaster seems just the perfect way to lose a match to otherwise dead cards, and I wouldn't lean towards that line seeing how the format was filled with cheap removal (and predictably even more in the near future with the victory of UWr Blade at gp NJ).

Instead of running 2/3s wouldn't be it better to go full on the cc1 cantrips and maximize Digs? Among other things cc1 cantrips also increase Flusterstorm's effectiveness and help in avoiding to get stucked on 1land hands which is a great problem for this deck given the lack of Preordain and Ponder. Ideally I would like to spend my first 2 turns sculpting my hand/lands and then having Dig active to start chain resources.

You may be right that a halfway configuration with Repeals gives more resistance in the face of the opponent, especially when considering a turn one Delver; on the other hand there are times when Repeal is suboptimal and/or a greater control over our draws would be good.
That's why I'm advocating on this deck to start "imitating" Tendrils' template (more cc1 cantrips, more selection, more hand info, less clunk) by retaining its advantages at the same time.

I have to admit I was wrong on Impulse, as suboptimal as it seems to be it's sadly a necessity to put away Brainstorm chaff while comboing.

scenarios: 3 lands: HT+reset+mage(tide)+snap+mage(snap)+mage in resp to mage+bf= bf rsolves for 9 (if a draw spel from op 10) mage resolve target bf+ bf11

or 3 lands: HT+reset+mage+reset+meditate -....-you go on

4 lands (would be here all night) what I mean is simple: use snapcaster to generate mana before you use high cost cards or the card drawer card...

during combo you can and will use Dig to get ride off BS crap...

Use capitalization please. Thanks. -zilla

[feline]

Well I hope those guys from Mtgsalvation see this post, because I can't post over there anymore and it's annoying (Login problems, site too slow, I gave up) Anyhow,

Just got back a couple hours ago, I will likely continue with this deck. I originally wanted to avoid Snapcaster and be "all spells" but after a 3-6 in Minneapolis I realized that Snapcaster > Remand. The issue of "removing a card in my graveyard" almost never came up anyhow other than a deathrite shaman once, and the one time it did I won anyway with their Deathrite shaman triggering my high tide in the graveyard, a scavenging ooze targeting something else in the graveyard, and a mother of runes trigger, all 3 triggers on the stack.

I feel so far that it is important to get to the second high tide resolved / Islands tapping for 3 mana, so I am much more sold on Snapcaster at this point as it was a lot harder to do before without Snapcaster. Snap was really there for tricks with Snapcaster, but 90% of the time or more, I am bouncing my opponents creatures and buying myself time, it's almost dumb to the point of considering a 3rd maindeck snap. Bounce your swiftspear with Prowess triggers, bounce your infect creature in response to +'ing it up, Bounce your flipped delver, etc. etc. etc.

For the 2 Brain Freeze in the Sideboard, because that might seem odd, it's because games 2/3 I wanted a maindeck kill condition incase extraction hit my Wishes, so I would side 1 Brain Freeze in every games 2/3. I wanted to fit all 4 Force of Wills into the maindeck, but I couldn't fit the 4th one in, so I put it in the sideboard. Well it ended up winning me a game against an opponent because I wasn't able to use pact or cast Flusterstorm, but I remembered having a Force in the side and Kabam!

I don't like Peek, and I'm going to wait as long as possible to go off anyway picking up what I need to along the way, so I personally will still not be running the card.

Some of the games I lost I was out counter magic'ed out, some of the games I lost were to just having to mulligan, and some of the games I lost were to me seriously messing up dumb stuff, like not going off in response to the combat step against burn, allowing them to do more damage to me so when I did go off at the end of their turn, they burned me in response. Not making that mistake again. I also blocked a Thalia with a Vendilion Clique thinking they'd trade, oops First Strike!

Awesome things from the weekend:
I won with Snapcaster mage attacking for 2 until they were dead
Brain Freeze your deck in response to -Jace Brainstorm- -Ponder- -Playing Counterbalance- -Playing Thalia- -Activating multiple abilities- -In response to combat, mill you, draw with Blue Sun's Zenith- Etc...

Deck is a blast to play and I hope this gives the deck some new light, I checked and according to many sites, Resets have become sold out, so hopefully everyone has theirs now!

[Asthereal]

Well I hope those guys from Mtgsalvation see this post, because I can't post over there anymore and it's annoying (Login problems, site too slow, I gave up) Anyhow,

Just got back a couple hours ago, I will likely continue with this deck. I originally wanted to avoid Snapcaster and be "all spells" but after a 3-6 in Minneapolis I realized that Snapcaster > Remand. The issue of "removing a card in my graveyard" almost never came up anyhow other than a deathrite shaman once, and the one time it did I won anyway with their Deathrite shaman triggering my high tide in the graveyard, a scavenging ooze targeting something else in the graveyard, and a mother of runes trigger, all 3 triggers on the stack.

I feel so far that it is important to get to the second high tide resolved / Islands tapping for 3 mana, so I am much more sold on Snapcaster at this point as it was a lot harder to do before without Snapcaster. Snap was really there for tricks with Snapcaster, but 90% of the time or more, I am bouncing my opponents creatures and buying myself time, it's almost dumb to the point of considering a 3rd maindeck snap. Bounce your swiftspear with Prowess triggers, bounce your infect creature in response to +'ing it up, Bounce your flipped delver, etc. etc. etc.

For the 2 Brain Freeze in the Sideboard, because that might seem odd, it's because games 2/3 I wanted a maindeck kill condition incase extraction hit my Wishes, so I would side 1 Brain Freeze in every games 2/3. I wanted to fit all 4 Force of Wills into the maindeck, but I couldn't fit the 4th one in, so I put it in the sideboard. Well it ended up winning me a game against an opponent because I wasn't able to use pact or cast Flusterstorm, but I remembered having a Force in the side and Kabam!

I don't like Peek, and I'm going to wait as long as possible to go off anyway picking up what I need to along the way, so I personally will still not be running the card.

Some of the games I lost I was out counter magic'ed out, some of the games I lost were to just having to mulligan, and some of the games I lost were to me seriously messing up dumb stuff, like not going off in response to the combat step against burn, allowing them to do more damage to me so when I did go off at the end of their turn, they burned me in response. Not making that mistake again. I also blocked a Thalia with a Vendilion Clique thinking they'd trade, oops First Strike!

Awesome things from the weekend:
I won with Snapcaster mage attacking for 2 until they were dead
Brain Freeze your deck in response to -Jace Brainstorm- -Ponder- -Playing Counterbalance- -Playing Thalia- -Activating multiple abilities- -In response to combat, mill you, draw with Blue Sun's Zenith- Etc...

Deck is a blast to play and I hope this gives the deck some new light, I checked and according to many sites, Resets have become sold out, so hopefully everyone has theirs now!
Congrats on making day two! :smile:

I have a couple of questions:
1. Since you are not running Turnabout, did you often lack the necessary untap effects?
2. Related, did you have trouble using Snap on Snapcaster because of Snapcaster getting killed in response?
3. Your list seems very weak to Counterbalance. Was this intentional?
4. Against which decks would you side in the Cliques?
5. Do you think any changes to the list would have helped you improve the day two score? Or was that just fatigue, variance, lack of experience?

[feline]

Congrats on making day two! :smile:

I have a couple of questions:
1. Since you are not running Turnabout, did you often lack the necessary untap effects?
2. Related, did you have trouble using Snap on Snapcaster because of Snapcaster getting killed in response?
3. Your list seems very weak to Counterbalance. Was this intentional?
4. Against which decks would you side in the Cliques?
5. Do you think any changes to the list would have helped you improve the day two score? Or was that just fatigue, variance, lack of experience?

`Not running Turnabout was never a problem.
`I don't think anyone ever targeted Snapcaster in response to Snap to bounce, though I was using Snap 90+% of the time to bounce opponents creatures
`Omg I won against miracles 2 out of 3 matches, both games were nuts. One of them I remember specifically, Cunning Wish at end of turn, bounce with Wipe Away, then next turn when they went to play counterbalance, I combo'ed off for the win milling their deck, then let balance resolve. I know it's only been 3 matches, but winning 2 out of 3 against miracles blew me away!
`Decks where Flusterstorm was dead I'd bring in Clique, I also almost always auto brought in Clique against any deck with creatures that could block and kill and disruption. Block and trade with Gaddock Teeg while putting a disruption spell from their hand to the bottom is nice.
`I am much happier with the list, most of my losses were to me doing dumb stuff that was fixable, and some mulliganing on day 1. Day 1 I lost to infect game 3 because I had to mulligan a few times before seeing a land, I guess it happens sometimes. I also lost to Death and Taxes in part because of mulliganing one game, and the other game just totally messing up not realizing Thalia had first strike and blocking with V Clique. Day II 2 of my losses were probably unavoidable, they countered me out more than I could fight back. Decks maindecking Pyroblasts are pretty darned intense!

[JDK]

It's worth noting that the maindeck Turnabout also helps with going off at the beginning of a lethal combat step without the need Zenith or bounce all the creatures. Sure, rare, but it comes up and Turnabout also has more utility.

[Asthereal]

`Not running Turnabout was never a problem.
`I don't think anyone ever targeted Snapcaster in response to Snap to bounce, though I was using Snap 90+% of the time to bounce opponents creatures
`Omg I won against miracles 2 out of 3 matches, both games were nuts. One of them I remember specifically, Cunning Wish at end of turn, bounce with Wipe Away, then next turn when they went to play counterbalance, I combo'ed off for the win milling their deck, then let balance resolve. I know it's only been 3 matches, but winning 2 out of 3 against miracles blew me away!
`Decks where Flusterstorm was dead I'd bring in Clique, I also almost always auto brought in Clique against any deck with creatures that could block and kill and disruption. Block and trade with Gaddock Teeg while putting a disruption spell from their hand to the bottom is nice.
`I am much happier with the list, most of my losses were to me doing dumb stuff that was fixable, and some mulliganing on day 1. Day 1 I lost to infect game 3 because I had to mulligan a few times before seeing a land, I guess it happens sometimes. I also lost to Death and Taxes in part because of mulliganing one game, and the other game just totally messing up not realizing Thalia had first strike and blocking with V Clique. Day II 2 of my losses were probably unavoidable, they countered me out more than I could fight back. Decks maindecking Pyroblasts are pretty darned intense!
Thanks for the fast response! :smile:
Shouldn't you be catching some sleep right now? :tongue:

I must say I really like your list. It's the first proper one that incorporates Snap-Snapcaster with DTT.
I never considered dumping all of the Turnabouts, and it's certainly something I will try.
The only main deck change I would consider is -2 Impulse, +2 Remand. More stalling while digging for land seems fine.
Most here have cut all Impulses from their lists, but I still like to keep a few in to dig for lands, fill the yard and so on.



It's worth noting that the maindeck Turnabout also helps with going off at the beginning of a lethal combat step without the need Zenith or bounce all the creatures. Sure, rare, but it comes up and Turnabout also has more utility.
You could also Snap (-Snapcaster-Snap) a few guys to make sure you don't die to their combat damage, if such a situation comes up.
I'm not sold on that argument alone to keep Turnabout in. Not to mention Seraphus only plays one Turnabout now.
The main argument for Turnabout, in my opinion, is that you have the option to go off on your own turn.
A friend of mine played six rounds of Solidarity yesterday and mentioned he wanted to go off on his own turn quite often.
He now considers moving a Reset to the board and playing 3x Reset, 3x Turnabout, 2x Snap main deck.
I'm not sold on that, but it's an idea. This deck is far from optimized yet. :wink:

[feline]

I originally had 3 main reset and 3 turnabout, but with snapcaster I just cut the turnabouts from the main and made all 4 resets main.

Snap their guy, play snapcaster, snap another of their guys, that's brilliant! Never thought of that!

I never wanted to go off on my turn with the deck surprisingly, if I ever wanted to do something before the combo turn, I did it on the turn of the opponents where I knew I still had another turn to pass the turn.

I use to have remand but I've since just cut it. If I ran Remand I don't think I'd cut Impulse. Impulse digs deep and I want to get to 3 lands minimum, hopefully 4-5+ and the only dig I have early is Opt/Brainstorm/Impulse & "potentially" Dig through Time, but by the time one can cast a Dig through time, there's likely a few lands in play.

I just hope the spark has been ignited and now we see High Tide making some top 8 finishes more regularly! And of course, this version doing it would just be awesome to see!

[JDK]

You could also Snap (-Snapcaster-Snap) a few guys to make sure you don't die to their combat damage, if such a situation comes up.
I'm not sold on that argument alone to keep Turnabout in. Not to mention Seraphus only plays one Turnabout now.
The main argument for Turnabout, in my opinion, is that you have the option to go off on your own turn.
A friend of mine played six rounds of Solidarity yesterday and mentioned he wanted to go off on his own turn quite often.
He now considers moving a Reset to the board and playing 3x Reset, 3x Turnabout, 2x Snap main deck.
I'm not sold on that, but it's an idea. This deck is far from optimized yet. :wink:

That's why I said "without the need [to] bounce all the creatures". Sure, there are several other ways, but usually they involve more cards and mana. ;)
I'm playing 1 MD Turnabout myself (as mentioned (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12086-Deck-Solidarity&p=844687&viewfull=1#post844687)), but I'm not proposing Turnabout to go off in your turn. In fact going off in your turn cannot easily be accomplished with just one Turnabout, but I have yet to face a situation where I need to go off on my own turn anyway.
The reason I play Turnabout is, that I want a critical number of reliable untap effects in my deck and Turnabout happens to also be able to do other stuff, like tap your guys, tap your lands, move to next phase/draw a counter (although that's weaker than EOT Turnabout in Spiral Tide). Granted, most of the times I don't need it especially, but in my 1CWish/1BF build I like to be able to deny a lethal attack after milling their deck. In my last two tournaments this situation has come up at least twice.


It's the first proper one that incorporates Snap-Snapcaster with DTT.
?

[Mackan]

I originally had 3 main reset and 3 turnabout, but with snapcaster I just cut the turnabouts from the main and made all 4 resets main.

Snap their guy, play snapcaster, snap another of their guys, that's brilliant! Never thought of that!

I never wanted to go off on my turn with the deck surprisingly, if I ever wanted to do something before the combo turn, I did it on the turn of the opponents where I knew I still had another turn to pass the turn.

I use to have remand but I've since just cut it. If I ran Remand I don't think I'd cut Impulse. Impulse digs deep and I want to get to 3 lands minimum, hopefully 4-5+ and the only dig I have early is Opt/Brainstorm/Impulse & "potentially" Dig through Time, but by the time one can cast a Dig through time, there's likely a few lands in play.

I just hope the spark has been ignited and now we see High Tide making some top 8 finishes more regularly! And of course, this version doing it would just be awesome to see!

Did you try Thought Scour in the peek/opt slot Feline?

[feline]

Nah, I looked at it but I like the cantrips to do some sort of digging, opt at least scry's for 1, which isn't great but it's something. The cantrips that just draw a card and that's it are not as attractive to me.

I realize however one can brainstorm, then thoughtscour the dead cards away and utilize them further with Delve, but that's just not a strategy I pushed for. I would also not want to cut Impulse for Thoughtscour or Peek as I believe Opt / Impulse / Brainstorm are more valuable than the other cantrips. Basically if I ran Peek or Thoughtscour as well, I'd have to cut something else. For now I don't feel comfortable enough cutting something else for cantrips 13+.

I have to say I am not nearly as comfortable with this deck as I am with traditional Spiral Tide, I could be wrong on a lot of stuff and the list I'm using is definitely not set in stone. Things could change from week to week for a while before I start running the same 70+ cards back after back.

[lexluthor]

Congratulations Feline!

Did you try Repeal in Snap slot Feline? You said he used 90% of the time or more,to bounce opponents creatures (delver for 1 mana ,swiftspear with Prowess triggers, infect creature). For this, repeal is better, because the draw and bounce other permanents (conterbalance, Trinisphere, planeswalker, etc)
What do you think?

[feline]

Congratulations Feline!

Did you try Repeal in Snap slot Feline? You said he used 90% of the time or more,to bounce opponents creatures (delver for 1 mana ,swiftspear with Prowess triggers, infect creature). For this, repeal is better, because the draw and bounce other permanents (conterbalance, Trinisphere, planeswalker, etc)
What do you think?

I may now be getting some Repeals, thank you for getting me to see it that way.

[Asthereal]

?
With "the first proper one to incorporate Snapcaster-Snap AND DTT" I meant to say the first list that I like, which uses both mechanics in full.

[Seraphus]

Congratulations Feline!

Did you try Repeal in Snap slot Feline? You said he used 90% of the time or more,to bounce opponents creatures (delver for 1 mana ,swiftspear with Prowess triggers, infect creature). For this, repeal is better, because the draw and bounce other permanents (conterbalance, Trinisphere, planeswalker, etc)
What do you think?

In the end you will be playing with my un-proper list...

Bad mode day... Sorry

[lexluthor]

In the end you will be playing with my un-proper list...

Bad mode day... Sorry


What?

[benthetenor]

In the end you will be playing with my un-proper list...

+1

Great job this weekend, Feline. It does me good to see someone have the courage to take a deck like this to such a large event, and it's even more impressive that you day-2ed with it, particularly since you're still so new to the deck. I'm saying that admitting that I don't have that kind of courage, but that may be a symptom of almost never getting to play tournaments these days. But I can't say it enough, great job.

I agree with you on Impulse. I've found that, for me, there's a definitely limit to the number of two-drops that you can support without clogging up your hand and stifling your velocity. I think that that limit is probably somewhere in the 12-14 range. What I mean by that is, once you incorporate Reset, Snapcaster Mage and Snap, you have to choose between Impulse and Remand since one of those two is going to get cast way more. For that reason, I think that given that you're even playing Snapcaster Mage and Snap, you need to pick one and forgo the other, which is what everyone has done almost instinctively. I think if it's between Remand and Impulse, it's honestly very close, to the point where you should probably just run whichever you feel does more for you. I will say that Remand is a lot less impressive against Delver of Secrets but potentially has a lot more game against the format coming out of the GP, assuming people will actually adjust instead of just jamming UR Delver like fools.

I like your list a lot; the only thing that stuck out to me was the 19th land. Clearly your results speak for themselves, I was just curious about it since it's not something I've ever done. I do find that, given enough stalling tactics, that the only way I usually lose is massive amounts of counterspells or my deck being stubborn and not coughing up enough land, so I kind of like it, I've just never tried it.

Also, in a world where you find yourself losing to massive amounts of counterspells, Mindbreak Trap is a very strong answer. Flusterstorm is also good and can't be countered itself, but Trap is free and always a hard counter to everything on their side of the stack. It's also a huge bonus that, if they have a last counter and you're playing with Remand, you can just remand your Trap and replay it. Twincast is also a good way to beat a medium-amount of counters.

[Seraphus]

What?

Are you minion Steve? This one: Despicable Me - WHAAAT?: http://youtu.be/VcE5wjCrQ1c

Also who has tried my list here? New comers this is not a "saw it at the starcities let me do the same" deck...

When I was hoping that we were moving towards a development of a solid list it comes this... It is all very cute but not even 10% of solidarity players play in a metagame defined by starcities games... European Legacy cannot be play like that... This is my opinion... I just passed the last days justifying word by word why card A is better than B I dont come here an say "I dont like it so I dont use it"

[Ralf]

Are you minion Steve? This one: Despicable Me - WHAAAT?: http://youtu.be/VcE5wjCrQ1c

Also who has tried my list here? New comers this is not a "saw it at the starcities let me do the same" deck...

When I was hoping that we were moving towards a development of a solid list it comes this... It is all very cute but not even 10% of solidarity players play in a metagame defined by starcities games... European Legacy cannot be play like that... This is my opinion... I just passed the last days justifying word by word why card A is better than B I dont come here an say "I dont like it so I dont use it"

Me. And I have already offered minor adjustments.
I'm also tempted to put back a 1-of impulse.

But we were already on the same path a few weeks ago.
As I was considering cutting impulse for DTT.

Still, the sideboard needs help.

[Seraphus]

Me. And I have already offered minor adjustments.
I'm also tempted to put back a 1-of impulse.

But we were already on the same path a few weeks ago.
As I was considering cutting impulse for DTT.

Still, the sideboard needs help.

You think its a good idea to cut 1 DTT for an Impulse? It might give more stability to pre combo but honestly why not change it for a 3rd opt? Daze and friends are to common in the meta and if it is to find lands maybe it's better 1 cmc cards...

Sb is very hard to handle. With so many mud and painter I would never take of rebuild I find that playing with 3 remands 2 flusters 2 fow 2 pon and in sb the 3rd fluster and 1 mb trap is amazing vs ur (and repeal for 0 is cool aswell)

[Ralf]

You think its a good idea to cut 1 DTT for an Impulse? It might give more stability to pre combo but honestly why not change it for a 3rd opt? Daze and friends are to common in the meta and if it is to find lands maybe it's better 1 cmc cards...

Not at all. I don't know what to cut yet.

[Seraphus]

Not at all. I don't know what to cut yet.

But how have you be doing with the list?

[feline]

Ty all for the responses. I definitely will be continuing with this deck because, it's fun as all heck to play! & It's still a High Tide / Mill you type strategy.

I definitely have a lot less experience with Solidarity than the average player in the forum for the deck, as really, I've only had the deck together for about a month and have 2 larger events that I have done, though the first time (SCG Minneapolis) I would consider a serious test phase as the deck is definitely different the second time around this past weekend at Jersey.

The changes between SCG Minneapolis & GP New Jersey were this:

SCG Minneapolis:
~The 4th High Tide was in the sideboard. 4th Reset was in the sideboard. 4 Turnabout main. 4 Meditate main. 4 Cunning Wish main. 4 Force of Will main. 2 Remand main. I also don't believe I ran any Vendilion Clique in the sideboard but I don't remember, it was probably all wish targets testing out as much stuff as possible. There were no Snapcaster / Snap in the main.

~New Jersey:
~All 4 High Tides in the maindeck. All 4 Reset in the maindeck. 0 Turnabout main. 0 Remand main. 3 Snapcaster main, 2 Snap main. Went down to 3 Cunning Wish. 3 Vendilion Clique sideboard.
Actual list for Jersey if interested was:
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Cunning Wish
3 Dig through Time
4 Meditate
3 Snapcaster
2 Snap
3 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
11 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
-sideboard-
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Dig through time
1 Wipe Away
1 Snap
1 Rebuild
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
1 Force of will
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical extraction
The 4th Force of will was in the sideboard mostly because I just couldn't fit it into the maindeck, & interestingly enough, I found myself once, wishing for Force of Will because I didn't have the mana to do that +Flusterstorm at the time. This only came up once however.

I am considering a 3rd Snap in the main as I was bouncing a lot of opponents stuff. Someone suggested Repeal since I was bouncing opponents stuff a lot. But I like the +mana you get from Snap once you start comboing, basically, Snap is a smaller ritual that can be used to bounce creatures before the combo turn whenever relevant. Repeal would be better pre combo, but once comboing I think I'd rather have Snap at this point as Repeal just draws you a single card, and I don't like cantrips that only Draw a card without any digging. As opposed to Impulse/Opt/Brainstorm. I am not 100% on this though as Repeal was suggested earlier by someone and I didn't even consider the idea until after Jersey. I do know that if I were to add Repeal, I would run it in addition to Brainstorm/Opt/Impulse & replace something else.

One part of my brain is toying with the idea of Maindeck Snapcaster Mage & Maindeck Vendilion Clique, and becoming a "flash creature combo deck, that can win with combat damage, forcing the opponent to play their own threats if they cannot answer my own, & of course, turning to the combo once it's the last possible turn to be alive." -This is just a thought though, it is not something I am pursuing.

Hopefully by the end of the year, we see some more Solidarity running around out there! Reset is still sold out on many sights and I am interested to see what the card spikes up to if it does.

[Kobal]

To those having experience with this newest iteration of the deck: How would you see the matchup against U/R Delver and Jeskai Stoneblade?

[Seraphus]

11 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
3 Opt
3 Peek
2 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Cunning Wish
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Brain Freeze
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Rebuild
SB: 2 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Twincast (+-)


It's an amazing machine this list...

I tried Impulse but I want to be always 1 mana open, it avoids dazes and shit when you are trying to sculpt; also if you remember what I told about the deck "each piece needs to know its place" I was wrong! not by saying that but by thinking we could replace Impulse with the DTT. Wrong, Wrong wrong! DTT is more useful during combo or as a combo piece than to set up hands, that way you can decide exactly what stay and goes from Grave. the 3rd opt is a huge advantage and the 2nd snap+remand has been like amazing. Turnabout was a two options card that either works post combo or during, I wanted something that allowed me to reach the combo turn and wasn't useless during the combo.

Any questions ask =)

[Ralf]

11 Island

It's an amazing machine this list...

I tried Impulse but I want to be always 1 mana open, it avoids dazes and shit when you are trying to sculpt; also if you remember what I told about the deck "each piece needs to know its place" I was wrong! not by saying that but by thinking we could replace Impulse with the DTT. Wrong, Wrong wrong! DTT is more useful during combo or as a combo piece than to set up hands, that way you can decide exactly what stay and goes from Grave. the 3rd opt is a huge advantage and the 2nd snap+remand has been like amazing. Turnabout was a two options card that either works post combo or during, I wanted something that allowed me to reach the combo turn and wasn't useless during the combo.

Any questions ask =)

1) So you make the switch to the 7th fetch. How does it work, so far ? Do you feel it really helps for casting DDT or for thinning a bit more the deck before the combo turn ?
2) Cutting 3rd DTT for another Opt. Why not, I have to test that slot instead of my 3rd SCM. Don't you have any problem to find SCM for the combo turn ?
How relevant it is to "Opt" by T3 instead of SCM->BS/Opt/peek ?
3) Turnabout vs Snap. Do you try to improve the speed of the deck by a far margin? I know it gives potential free kill by T3 with a perfect hand and no interaction, but well... As much as I could have disliked Turnabout for clogging my hand from times to times, I do remember it stealing games I could not win otherwise: BF your whole library, tap your creatures for the turn...and it is your turn again !
4) Can we talk about sideboard tables ? Twincast, really against what matchup ?

Thanks.

[Seraphus]

1) So you make the switch to the 7th fetch. How does it work, so far ? Do you feel it really helps for casting DDT or for thinning a bit more the deck before the combo turn ?
2) Cutting 3rd DTT for another Opt. Why not, I have to test that slot instead of my 3rd SCM. Don't you have any problem to find SCM for the combo turn ?
How relevant it is to "Opt" by T3 instead of SCM->BS/Opt/peek ?
3) Turnabout vs Snap. Do you try to improve the speed of the deck by a far margin? I know it gives potential free kill by T3 with a perfect hand and no interaction, but well... As much as I could have disliked Turnabout for clogging my hand from times to times, I do remember it stealing games I could not win otherwise: BF your whole library, tap your creatures for the turn...and it is your turn again !
4) Can we talk about sideboard tables ? Twincast, really against what matchup ?

Thanks.

1) it's better since I do not have impulse to wash away BS crap it helps with that; also it contributes to a better and faster DTT
2) I don't think it is relevant if I get Mage before or during combo - I prefer a stall strategy MOST of the times so for me eot SCM+opt or even peek is good since I can block and snap or repeal SCM next turn; however at turn 3 you might be remanding cards, my list only has 2 SCM;
3) My intention was not at all speed up the deck clock (however it does, imo, it is always better to combo later (not too late) with a stabilized game that's why I give so importance to peek) having the ability of t2 snap+ remand or repeal = more cards to DTT, more delaying etc. But Snap contrary to Turnabout works much better with SCM and storm generator, remember that you can win games with 1 life so sometimes just bounce the right creature...
4) sideboard tables? Twincast is to MUD/Chalice decks, vs storm (last night I was like vs storm: he combos, I only have 2 mana I had some cards in hand including HT Reset fluster and something else, he calculates that he needs to pass over my fluster cause he used Probe on 1st turn so he already played 2 led's on 2nd turn and by hitting the 3 land he would have enough mana to combo and pass over fluster for lethal I let him go up to the tendrils he had mana I do HT+Reset twincast gain 2 life and flusterstorm on your tendrils (I stay alive at 2 life) and he scoups...), also twincast is useful against decks that you know you want to leave your counters on sb...

[runkor]

Some guidelines for piloting would be nice, the deck looks sexy i just dont know how to play it optimally... help please !

[Seraphus]

Some guidelines for piloting would be nice, the deck looks sexy i just dont know how to play it optimally... help please !

177 pages mate! The 1st page being a explanation that is still very valid...

[Darkenslight]

Some guidelines for piloting would be nice, the deck looks sexy i just dont know how to play it optimally... help please !

Goldfish a lot, then play against competent tempo players (both with counters and discard varieties), then play against Emrakul players. The short version is that turns one and two are setup turns, and that you want to go off as late as possibl. Learn the decision-trees for the early turns and the goldfishing should teach you how to sequence spells properly. This is arguably the most complex combo deck you're likely to play in Legacy, and the lessons you take home are always useful.

[Seraphus]

latest update on my list:

SB:
-1 twincast + 1 wipe away.

[Ralf]

Report time !

I went to a monthly tournament last week end and decided to give my latest list a good spin.

1st Round: Sylvan Plug piloted by Lejay. Lost 0-2

I know what he is on.

G1: OTP

I'm able to prevent a nasty choke hitting the table (2 times thanks to 2 remand).
At some point, I have 4 lands in play against Lejay' six. He is playing a chalice@1 which I know would be followed up by choke. I went for it with chalice on the stack and failed by not having a strong draw spell within the 3 top cards.

G2: OTP

I force a chalice@1 by his T2 which is followed up by a sylvan library.
Sylvan library gave him enough gas to draw into choke + trini while I was stuck on 2 lands.
I scooped to a lethal board with Titania and 2 other 5/3 guys.


2nd Round: Mono Black Control piloted by Jean Pat. Won 2-0

Pretty uneventful, the guy was playing 15 discard MD but Meditate/DTT invalidates his whole deck:

G1: OTD

I played cantrips, made land drops, hid some big draw spells and just kill him before liliana reached her ultimate.

G2: OTD

I had to cope with a T1 Planar void with one of my DTT in hand. Eventually, I drew a repeal and was able to go-off by copying one of his big draw spell (draw 4 cards, lose half your life rounded up):
- high tide
- repeal planar -> draw 1
- twincast your spell -> draw 4, lose half of my life
-> won from there

3rd Round: Abzan Nic Fit piloted by Quentin Lost 1-2

I know what he is on since my previous success with Abzan Nic Fit gave him confidence to pick up the archetype.

G1: OTD

I have to face 3 Cabal Therapy in the first 3 turns which ended up shredding my hand apart.
Unfortunately, sac'ing an explorer against a high tide deck is asking for trouble.
Eventually I drew a tide + a cantrip and chose to go off end of the turn before facing lethal.

G2: OTD

I through away this game and that might have been the whole big missplay I did over this day.
Everything was under control until the following:

Board:

Teeg + Canonist + DRS + Reclamation Sage

1) Bounce Canonist then Teeg EOOT
2) Play a land during my turn and ship it back
3) Attempt to go off with canonist on the stack
4) Here is the full sequence:

HT->floating mana-> Reset -> Repeal on DRS ->DRS targetting Reset -> SCM on Reset -> Forgot to float remaining mana -> I ended
up fizzling as I was missing the extra mana...

G3: OTP

Interesting game where drawing any 1cmc playable card would have given me victory.
My hand was a beautiful potential T4 kill -> HT, BF, RESET, CW, Repeal + 2 lands

1) I faced a T3 GSZ for Gaddock then he shipped it back to me.
2) I drew peek & played my 4th land. EOT
3) He played a CT and I opted to go off with the CT on the stack:

a) HT
b) Reset (floating 4 mana)
c) Peek -> drawing opt -> opt into repeal (FFS...1st was a land)
d) Cunning for remand -> 7 mana floating
e) BF -> remand -> BF

18 + 27 cards milled -> 48 left in his library and he succeeded in killing me within 3 turns.

Sad life...

Round 4: Temur Delver Won 2-1

Cool, my worst nightmare !!! But my best match of the day and by far.

G1: OTD

Opponent mull to 5 OTP -> T1 Delver. Delver refused to flip the very next turn and I flusterstorm his ponder.
Bunch of turns later, I'm able to sneak a meditate against a non lethal board and that was that. CA + counter gave me enough gas to BF him for the win.

G2: OTD

Perfect tempo rape. T1 Delver, T2 Mongoose backed up with trillion of permissions while I was struggling to find the 3rd land...

G3: OTP

Weird opening hands 5 (3 fetch lands) lands +1 repeal+1 MBT. After pondering for a minute I decided to keep this hand.
A T1 Delver got repealed and replayed afterwards and I have 6 turns to sculpt a "perfect hand" to try to go off:

Eventually, the big turn showed up (I'm at 2 life) and I have 7 lands in play & the following cards in hand:

HT, Reset, DTT, BS, PoN, MBT. The stack went like this:

1) HT -> resolves (12 floating mana)
2) Reset -> snare
3) Brainstorm -> REB
4) PoN targetting snare -> fully paid FOW on Reset again
5) MBT -> every opponent spells
6) DTT -> Won from there.

Last Round: BANT midrange Lost 0-2

So unfortunately, I had to mull to 5 on the first and to 6 on the second game.
Thinking about it, I should have kept the first hand of the first game.
I had somehow a fast kill if I drew another land + a kill condition but no cantrips at all:
HT, HT, Snap, SCM, Snap, Reset, Land.

G1: OTD

The mull to 6 was a no land hand & the mull to 5 was a 2 land hand + remand, repeal and opt.
My opponent went for T1 -> forest into GSZ for Dryad. Hmmm Maverick ?
I spent the first few turns digging for lands & sculpting my hand but I faced a T3 Jace which ended up giving enough gas (counters) to prevent me from coming back into the game.
Eventually I died to a monstruous KotR.

G2: OTP

Again mulligan to 6 with an average hand containing no counterspell but 2 medidate & 1 DTT, 2 fetch 1 peek.

Peek revealed:
- BS
- FOW
- SCM
- Swan song
- GSZ
- 2 lands

What a f. nightmare...
My opponent started again with T1 GSZ for dryad which again put me out of tempo.
Some SCM shenanigans later and a resolved Jace, I had to push through my spell against his counterspells' barrier.
Eventually, DTT was my last card in hand and broke through (3 Fow, 2 Swan song):
3 lands left (2 used for DTT on his upkeep)=> I chose a Reset + Medidate among the 7 revealed by DTT.
All I needed was the medidate to be strong:
- 3 lands
- 1 flusterstorm.

Real.

I ended the day at 2-3 which could have easily been 3-2 save my horrible punt in round 3.
I really enjoyed playing Solidarity.

If you have any questions, feel free to shoot.

[Seraphus]

conclusion about the list?

[Ralf]

conclusion about the list?

Hard to draw any meaningful conclusions.

1) MD is pretty cool (like yours) and I wouldn't change anything right now as I believe it is "too" soon.
2) Variance is still a thing
3) SB may have to be revisited to better fight back "stompy" decks.

[Seraphus]

Hard to draw any meaningful conclusions.

1) MD is pretty cool (like yours) and I wouldn't change anything right now as I believe it is "too" soon.
2) Variance is still a thing
3) SB may have to be revisited to better fight back "stompy" decks.

I agree with you; that's why in sb I just re+lace a twincast for the 3rd wipe away.

[lexluthor]

One suggestion that I'm trying :split Repeal and Into the Roil.

Fast comparison:

Against permanent cost 3 or more : Into the roil is better. You can choose from bounce 2 mana or 4 mana + draw. Repeal always will be 4 mana or more.


Against permanent cost 2: both have the same level. With repeal always will be bounce per 3 mana and draw. With Into the Roil, you can choose from bounce 2 mana or 4 mana + draw, what is best at the time . Against Thalia and Gaddock Teeg, Into the Roil is better.


Against permanent cost 1 or 0: Repeal is better


Chalice of the void : Into the roil winsss!!!!!


so guys, what do you think?

[Seraphus]

One suggestion that I'm trying :split Repeal and Into the Roil.

Fast comparison:

Against permanent cost 3 or more : Into the roil is better. You can choose from bounce 2 mana or 4 mana + draw. Repeal always will be 4 mana or more.


Against permanent cost 2: both have the same level. With repeal always will be bounce per 3 mana and draw. With Into the Roil, you can choose from bounce 2 mana or 4 mana + draw, what is best at the time . Against Thalia and Gaddock Teeg, Into the Roil is better.


Against permanent cost 1 or 0: Repeal is better


Chalice of the void : Into the roil winsss!!!!!


so guys, what do you think?

The idea behind a card mechanism shell like repeal+remand+fluster(arguable)+snap it's that it is always a 1 per 2 case. You said almost anything against permanents that cost 1 or 0 repeal is indeed better so it is against cmc 2 cause cantrip w/ repeal x=2 total cmc 3, Into the roil bounceable permanent with cmc = [0-3] in order to cantrip it will be higher or in case of cmc 3 equal to repeal cost to the same effect. A small plus vs CB repeal always = to cmc3.

Why Into the roil doesn't fit sb?

As for decks like stompy MUD and etc I prefer the combination of rebuild and wipe away it's much stronger and you are not only covering your ass as you are also disrupting completely your op strategy. - 1 idea I keep in mind vs stompy is that if we extend the game it's half of a victory already.

As for DnT/haterators decks likewise, with MoR in play you want to keep their board very clean, if you can bounce the Mother to their hands, post board you will take all your counters out expect remands (in my list this means -6 cards). Try things like this: snap on your turn on mother repeal on vial what you will see is that next turn they will play land, mother, vial, go... if they play Thalia they are asking for it but it doesn't matter you delay their clock by 2 turns... Also I have no problem concerning Thalia nor with that guy that only let's you draw one card per turn, my shell only have like 70% cantrips 6 being 1 cmc= draw (not including BS) so believe me having 5 mana is enough to play with them, and with this strategy no way they will kill you before you reach 5-7 lands.

Do I make any sense?

[Vacrix]

Ahh.. I have yet to test Dig Through Time. It looks like its best when you are already winning though. I've played Peer Through Depths as a 2-4 of for quite some time now.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/64/361/389559.full.jpg

Any thoughts on this? Reset + Meditate for 5. Though it doesn't look too good against control, it could be a pretty nice solution to faster aggro decks. Perhaps it could be sideboard tech for certain metagames.

[Asthereal]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/64/361/389559.full.jpg

Any thoughts on this? Reset + Meditate for 5. Though it doesn't look too good against control, it could be a pretty nice solution to faster aggro decks. Perhaps it could be sideboard tech for certain metagames.
It says nonland permanents.

[Ralf]

Deleted.

[Seraphus]

Ahh.. I have yet to test Dig Through Time. It looks like its best when you are already winning though. I've played Peer Through Depths as a 2-4 of for quite some time now.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/64/361/389559.full.jpg

Any thoughts on this? Reset + Meditate for 5. Though it doesn't look too good against control, it could be a pretty nice solution to faster aggro decks. Perhaps it could be sideboard tech for certain metagames.

1st gz to reach 2014 and to leave 2007 behind. Honestly PTD does not have room in this deck. DTT is the greatest card that came out since snapcaster and fluster to solidarity. The rest was already replied...

[itrytostorm]

This is more directed to Feline, but I suppose anyone who plays that list can respond. What do you side and when? Just the 3 Clique vs other combo decks?

[Vacrix]

Ahh... reading is tech. My bad.

DTT looks good, but it feels like Spell Pierce food and it conflicts with Snapcaster. I'll test it on Cockatrice though. Its miles better than FOI. I've been a big advocate of PTD for years now. It sets up nicely (and more consistently earlier than DTT), and it does what you want FOI or DTT for when you are going off. I SO rarely fizz when going off thanks to PTD. DTT looks good though. I think I'll wind up splitting 2/2 or 3/1, (PTD/DTT). In multiples DTT isn't so good, and it has problems with graveyard hate that PTD does not, which is particularly important if you are dealing with something like T1 Deathrite Shaman.. a problem that normally doesn't affect us while we are setting up.

[feline]

Was switching Vendilion Clique and Flusterstorm directly against some decks where I could be slower or Flusterstorm wasn't that great (Like Death and Taxes)


Other times if they were fast like ANT for example, I'd keep in the Flusterstorms. Sometimes I could replace snap with Vendilion Clique as well, since against some decks they have no relevant creatures to target. Being able to flash in a Vendilion Clique against an attacking hate bear like Gaddock Teeg / Ethersworn Canonist / Meddling Mage / etc is nice too.


I was using Snap so much on everything but Snapcaster Mage that I'd consider replacing Snaps with Repeal. But there were times where the Snap during combo acted as a needed "mini ritual" to get things going. I could see someone making an argument for Repeal or Snap depending.

[lexluthor]

Hi Feline!!! you was missing...

As SCG Richmond was? Tell us a little. you changed something on your list? as were the matchs?

[feline]

Richmond was the same list as GPJersey. I went 5-4 in Richmond.

The countermagic of peoples maindeck Red Blasts are a hinder for both Spiral Tide / High Tide / probably other mono blue combo decks like Omniscience. So that's one thing preventing this deck from doing a little better in my opinion.

I might cut the 2 maindeck Snaps for 2 Repeals maindeck, since I almost always use the bounce on my opponents creatures, but sometimes the Snap acts as a needed mini ritual when starting. So I don't know for sure, I could see either depending on the persons preferences.

Since Coverage is going to change next year, I now suddenly have 2 opens left to have a decent chance at camera time, so for now I'm going back to Spiral tide and attempting to get one last coverage match and one last potential top 16+ finish with the deck before the year is over.

Next year I will be even more flexible with stuff since it's just 5K's now, so I'll probably bounce between Solidarity & Spiral Tide as well as potentially other stuff if I feel comfortable with it. Prison Stax would be fun to play, or heck maybe even "Booster pack Belcher" just to have fun (Wishless Belcher, buy a booster pack for event, open it, it's your sideboard, try to top 16 with the list)

2 of my losses in Richmond, were against Burn & ANT, as soon as I realized what I was going against each of those matches, I immediately wished I still had the Counterbalance / Top plan, but obviously that is not in Reset tide. Basically, those 2 match ups are a little tougher without. I also messed up against the ANT deck one of the games, Could have Cunning Wished and Surgical Extracted a Cabal Therapy in response to an Infernal Tutor, since they couldn't go off. I didn't think about them getting me with disruption till it was too late. (They had basically lethal on board via Young Pyromancer sided in, + the tokens it created.)

[itrytostorm]

Was switching Vendilion Clique and Flusterstorm directly against some decks where I could be slower or Flusterstorm wasn't that great (Like Death and Taxes)


Other times if they were fast like ANT for example, I'd keep in the Flusterstorms. Sometimes I could replace snap with Vendilion Clique as well, since against some decks they have no relevant creatures to target. Being able to flash in a Vendilion Clique against an attacking hate bear like Gaddock Teeg / Ethersworn Canonist / Meddling Mage / etc is nice too.


I was using Snap so much on everything but Snapcaster Mage that I'd consider replacing Snaps with Repeal. But there were times where the Snap during combo acted as a needed "mini ritual" to get things going. I could see someone making an argument for Repeal or Snap depending.

Are there any decks you side in one of the Freezes? Maybe against Jund or Nic Fits, where Surgical and Slaughter Games could hit you Wishes.

[lexluthor]

@ Seraphus, why you use 3 ravenous trap in sb? what games do you use them? reanimator, ant and dredge?


you were testing Polymorphist's Jest against DnT, what you think? what better way to deal against this deck?

[Seraphus]

@ Seraphus, why you use 3 ravenous trap in sb? what games do you use them? reanimator, ant and dredge?


you were testing Polymorphist's Jest against DnT, what you think? what better way to deal against this deck?

Relevant questions!

Rav Trap: Lands deck, ANT, Dredge, Reanimator, All spells/belcher indeed and sometimes if I won g1 vs decks with Emrakull I side in 2 of them; the why is that it kills these decks, on the contrary spot removal gravehate that removes 1 and only one card. It's much reasonable to kill an Emrakull trigger with this...

Poly: wipe away it's much better combining with other cards like rebuild,repeal, snap and echoing truth because if you have thalia on the ground poly will cost 4 + you have to combo on the turn you use it... It's too much mana intensive...

[SirTylerGalt]

Rav Trap: Lands deck, ANT, Dredge, Reanimator, All spells/belcher indeed and sometimes if I won g1 vs decks with Emrakull I side in 2 of them; the why is that it kills these decks, on the contrary spot removal gravehate that removes 1 and only one card. It's much reasonable to kill an Emrakull trigger with this...


I don't understand how Ravenous Trap helps against Emrakul.

If you use it in response to the first Emrakul reshuffle trigger, your opponent still has 3 other Emrakuls in his library. So you need to have Ravenous Trap for those too, or Remand + BF in response to these new reshuffle triggers, or BSZ for lethal. It seems Surgical Extraction would be better against Emrakul, since it removes all Emrakuil copies, the opponent's graveyard is shuffled into the library, then BF copies continue resolving.

If you are using BF + Remand tricks in response to Emrakul triggers, and *then* use Ravenous Trap to exile the GY when the library is empty, why not use a BSZ for X=1?

[Seraphus]

I don't understand how Ravenous Trap helps against Emrakul.

If you use it in response to the first Emrakul reshuffle trigger, your opponent still has 3 other Emrakuls in his library. So you need to have Ravenous Trap for those too, or Remand + BF in response to these new reshuffle triggers, or BSZ for lethal. It seems Surgical Extraction would be better against Emrakul, since it removes all Emrakuil copies, the opponent's graveyard is shuffled into the library, then BF copies continue resolving.

If you are using BF + Remand tricks in response to Emrakul triggers, and *then* use Ravenous Trap to exile the GY when the library is empty, why not use a BSZ for X=1?

I have never seen a deck with 4 Emrakul, please show me a list with 4... Rav Trap remove all cards in grave = shuffle nothing into your deck... Sometimes you don't have 4 mana for bsz 1... but vs decks with emrakull its rare that I even try to mill them I go straight to BSZ kill...

[itrytostorm]

I have never seen a deck with 4 Emrakul, please show me a list with 4... Rav Trap remove all cards in grave = shuffle nothing into your deck... Sometimes you don't have 4 mana for bsz 1... but vs decks with emrakull its rare that I even try to mill them I go straight to BSZ kill...

Sneak and Show....

[Seraphus]

Sneak and Show....

Which is the only deck we can only win by beatdown

[Seraphus]

I need to be clear and share why my opinion is this:

the list you guys are talking about is this:

Creatures [8]
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

Instants [14]
1 Dig Through Time
1 Fire // Ice
1 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [11]
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell


Enchantments [4]
4 Sneak Attack

Artifacts [4]
4 Lotus Petal

Lands [19]
1 Mountain
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn

SB:
2 Defense Grid
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Blood Moon
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Through the Breach
3 Pyroclasm

Notice the amount of counters? We cannot overcome that and overcome the Emrakulls as well... So post board use all counters even PoN and pray for Snapcaster action otherwise it's impossible to overcome it imo...

[JDK]

Trap is nothing more than mediocre against Reanimator. That's why I prefer a 2/1 split between Surgical Extraction and Trap.
Yes, Trap is much better against Dredge, but I'd rather have a card that actually stops Iona or whatever when I need to. Unconditionally.

Most of the time I played against Emrakul I just wished for Surgical, extracted all Emrakuls (or just in case he has more than the one causing the trigger), let the trigger resolve and then flashbacked Brain Freeze or cast a lethal Zenith. Sure, sometimes in some rare cases you are limited to just Trap the seen Emrakul, but you can easily cover this by splitting the GY-hate.

[Seraphus]

Trap is nothing more than mediocre against Reanimator. That's why I prefer a 2/1 split between Surgical Extraction and Trap.
Yes, Trap is much better against Dredge, but I'd rather have a card that actually stops Iona or whatever when I need to. Unconditionally.

Most of the time I played against Emrakul I just wished for Surgical, extracted all Emrakuls (or just in case he has more than the one causing the trigger), let the trigger resolve and then flashbacked Brain Freeze or cast a lethal Zenith. Sure, sometimes in some rare cases you are limited to just Trap the seen Emrakul, but you can easily cover this by splitting the GY-hate.

Why is trap mediocre vs reanimator?

[JDK]

Because it only works, if the opponent got three cards into his grave in the turn before resolving the reanimation spell, obviously.

This is only granted, if the opponent uses Careful Study, Entomb + Fetch/Spell or 3*[Fetch/Spell] in one turn. The turn you have Trap and he gets his fatty in the GY. If he goes Study Turn 1 and gets Iona into the bin and passes, you draw Trap and cry. Surgical would still work.

Plus, if he is smart, he will play around Trap as good as possible. I'd rather have a guaranteed hate-piece, wouldn't you?

[Seraphus]

Because it only works, if the opponent got three cards into his grave in the turn before resolving the reanimation spell, obviously.

This is only granted, if the opponent uses Careful Study, Entomb + Fetch/Spell or 3*[Fetch/Spell] in one turn.
If he is smart, he will play around it as good as possible. I'd rather have a guaranteed hate-piece, wouldn't you?

Wrong careful study is enough to trigger trap...

if he/she plays around it then we have our time to combo...

[JDK]

Wrong careful study is enough to trigger trap...

That's what I said. Please read carefully.

Enough time? You do realize this can be easily done by playing Turn 1 Entomb, Turn 2 Reanimation-Spell (plus dozens of other combinations and cards like Show and Tell are also in there), right?

[Seraphus]

That's what I said. Please read carefully.

you are right my apologies. However I keep what I said and I don't find mediocre vs reanimator plus I prefer to have a higher % vs dredge which is 90% certain presence in tournaments and the all spells deck as well...

[Seraphus]

But they are not playing vs a wall we have cards as well... FoW, Fluster, traps (and in case Extraction)...

[astormbrewing]

Which is the only deck we can only win by beatdown

As JDK said, Surgical Extraction is what we want against them, and with it, the match is certainly not unwinnable (just quite difficult).

I'll have the entire deck both in paper and on Magic online by the end of December.

[Seraphus]

As JDK said, Surgical Extraction is what we want against them, and with it, the match is certainly not unwinnable (just quite difficult).

I'll have the entire deck both in paper and on Magic online by the end of December.

If it's either surgical or Ravenous it's a 30% chance to win vs sneak and show. IMO we should assume a defensive and control position. If for you guys surgical works fine, awesome, it doesn't for me, it doesn't fit in my strategy and it's not worthy of playing it... And I explain why and can make more arguments about it.

[Seraphus]

I took off my sb the twincast and added a surgical... Jeskai deck pretty hard...

[wsurugby10]

This is up on Gathering Magic today. http://www.gatheringmagic.com/inside-the-deck-video-12042014-legacy-solidarity-deck-tech/

[astormbrewing]

This is up on Gathering Magic today. http://www.gatheringmagic.com/inside-the-deck-video-12042014-legacy-solidarity-deck-tech/

GatheringMagic is hilarious, since SCG did a deck tech of her deck at GP NJ and posted it same day.

[itrytostorm]

I run 2 Freez's and a BSZ in the board for my 3 wishes to get. Would any number of the 3 come in against decks that may have Surgical or Slaughter Games? I've been bringing in a Freeze against Jund and Nic Fits.

[feline]

Just as a precaution because any deck can side in Surgical Extraction, I always -1 High tide to the sideboard and +1 Brain Freeze to the maindeck, just in case, because I never know. It's why I was running 2 Brain Freeze in the Sideboard, the second one was for bringing in games 2/3.

[eostby]

Yeah, the list I've been goldfishing with runs 1 Freeze main and 1 Tide in the board as a hedge on both of those reasons (I also run the 4th Wish, so it's more for strategic value when I need a Tide on short notice).

[itrytostorm]

Just went 4-1 at a local event.

2-1 ~ Some random UB control build with Ashiok.

0-2 ~ American Delver. Game 2 I had him with counters, 3 untapped island, 1 high tide played, no cards in hand with a meditate on the stack. Hit 3 lands and Force :(

2-0 ~ American Delver again. Won in easy fashion. Game 2 he kept all reactive allowing me sculpt the perfect hand.

2-1 ~ Burn :mad: Eidolon :mad: I won games 1 & 3 with Eidolon on the stack :tongue:

Top 8
2-1 ~ American Delver rematch of round 3. He took game one and I got the post board games. I feel like they NEED an early threat, but feel required to keep anything with counters.

I am not sure if I boarded correctly, but against Delver and UB I took out High Tide, 2 Opt, and Impulse for 3 Clique and Brain Freeze. Burn I brought in Force and Fluster over 2 Impulse. Please tell me if that's terribly wrong. I liked the Cliques so trade with their few threats. My first tournament with it and I really liked it. I will definitely keep trying this deck.

[Higgs]

After some testing, holy shit this deck is a blast. Anyone else playing Feline's version? Any difficult match-ups you've faced so far?

[Seraphus]

who thinks BF is vital to the deck?

[Ralf]

who thinks BF is vital to the deck?

What do you mean ?

When I was playing BF in the side (along 3 CW main), I usually went "big" every time I could as BSZ is a straight kill.

Higher risk, higher reward.

But games tend to rather drag forever. The decision tree also is "wider" when you try to kill with BSZ instead of BF.
During GP and big tournaments, Solidarity definitely needs quick/easy wins. BF gives you this opportunity; to just win "small".

So if your question is to completely cut "BF", it will be detrimental to your win %.
If your question is "can we find another small wincon as a BF replacement ?"
Hell why not ? But I don't have any clue.

Sidenote

I would love to find a way to make our game 1 last forever and just bulldoze people 1-0 each round. Because it is, in my opinion, one of the safest way for a combo deck to succeed:
- Win G1
- Never end G2

[Seraphus]

What do you mean ?

When I was playing BF in the side (along 3 CW main), I usually went "big" every time I could as BSZ is a straight kill.

Higher risk, higher reward.

But games tend to rather drag forever. The decision tree also is "wider" when you try to kill with BSZ instead of BF.
During GP and big tournaments, Solidarity definitely needs quick/easy wins. BF gives you this opportunity; to just win "small".

So if your question is to completely cut "BF", it will be detrimental to your win %.
If your question is "can we find another small wincon as a BF replacement ?"
Hell why not ? But I don't have any clue.

Sidenote

I would love to find a way to make our game 1 last forever and just bulldoze people 1-0 each round. Because it is, in my opinion, one of the safest way for a combo deck to succeed:
- Win G1
- Never end G2

11 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
3 Opt
3 Peek
2 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Cryptic Command
SB: 4 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Rebuild
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Relax it's just testing

[Ralf]

SB: 1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Relax it's just testing

Ahahah, you and I had the same idea.
I'm testing Teferi since 2 weeks :D


Edit:

1) The main issue I have with playing no CW is that you are very soft to surgical extraction effect on HT.
It will be a nightmare to win a game where HT is extracted.

2) The other aspect, I'm afraid of, is having only one kill con in your MD. If BSZ is discarded (which is very unlikely to happen), you could be in trouble. Even more against BG/x decks packing along DRS (eating the discarded BSZ)

If you could develop your arguments which helped you make this move ?

[Seraphus]

Ahahah, you and I had the same idea.
I'm testing Teferi since 2 weeks :D


Edit:

1) The main issue I have with playing no CW is that you are very soft to surgical extraction effect on HT.
It will be a nightmare to win a game where HT is extracted.

2) The other aspect, I'm afraid of, is having only one kill con in your MD. If BSZ is discarded, you could be in trouble. Even more against BG/x decks packing along DRS (eating the discarded BSZ)

If you could develop your arguments which helped you make this move ?

1) I had wins with reset alone but I guess it would help having 1-2 BF in sb (which I do had before adding the 4th R. Trap and Teferi).

2) try not to have opening hands with BSZ also normally they go for cards like tide and etc (don't forget that 3 mana = shuffle BSZ away).

Well, BSZ
- is one more card that can ignite the combo
- it's not useless pre combo nor mid-combo
- it allowed me to get rid of Cwish by just adding another control piece (cryptic): which is adapted to my play stile
- it's instant kill
- I have mentioned before that the deck do generate much more mana now so why not add the instant kill option that is an hybrid piece that either can be a draw engine and a Killing piece?
- atm I really don't remember more arguments (ask them please :tongue: )

[Marowfreeze]

Ahahah, you and I had the same idea.
I'm testing Teferi since 2 weeks :D


Edit:

1) The main issue I have with playing no CW is that you are very soft to surgical extraction effect on HT.
It will be a nightmare to win a game where HT is extracted.

2) The other aspect, I'm afraid of, is having only one kill con in your MD. If BSZ is discarded (which is very unlikely to happen), you could be in trouble. Even more against BG/x decks packing along DRS (eating the discarded BSZ)

If you could develop your arguments which helped you make this move ?

I like the list posted with the arguments above by serph so here is my input
+2 wishes in sb to be brought in vs surgical/discard giving us an almost enlightened tutor like board. Bring in wishes + couple of copies of important spells and leave 1 in the board

If you already have teferi, lab maniac should be here- I'd personally do both main board and use that as my "game 1 go long combo". It is funny because it pairs well with the BSZ style, instead of hitting then for 45+ you target yourself for 20ish. Lab maniac is protected by Teferi and is a super dead card pre combo, but so is BF-just play around it by dtt/opt/BS past it

I actually brought something like this to gp Phoenix a couple of months ago , I unfortunately was still new to the deck without all of my forces so didn't do well, but the combo did help me beat esper stoneblade that discard+extirpate my cunnings turn 1/2-the whole sneak in Teferi during mid combo stop Counterspell wars.

[fuga]

11 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
3 Opt
3 Peek
2 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Cryptic Command
SB: 4 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Rebuild
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Relax it's just testing

Teferi could be played by Time Spiral deck, our is instant speed. But please, explain us your ideas! :)

[Marowfreeze]

Teferi could be played by Time Spiral deck, our is instant speed. But please, explain us your ideas! :)
Teferi has flash, gives all my creatures flash(ideally the lab maniac) and makes it so opponents can only play spells like they where sorceries-shuts of Counterspells, kill spells on the lab maniac in response to last draw.

[fuga]

Teferi has flash, gives all my creatures flash(ideally the lab maniac) and makes it so opponents can only play spells like they where sorceries-shuts of Counterspells, kill spells on the lab maniac in response to last draw.

My fault, I misread Tereferi. I was thinking about the planeswalker one! (Its -1 ability untaps 4 permanents)

[Marowfreeze]

My fault, I misread Tereferi. I was thinking about the planeswalker one! (Its -1 ability untaps 4 permanents)
Ah, easy mistake, but ya sounds kinda interesting in time spiral lol

[fuga]

Ah, easy mistake, but ya sounds kinda interesting in time spiral lol

I know, that's why my eyes were shining! :D

[Seraphus]

but still I can explain my idea: Teferi is a backup plan to decks that pack too much counters like Sneak attack decks where IMO we should assume a control-ish beatdown-ish position and Teferi allow us to control counters.

[Ralf]

Deleted.

[Valtrix]

I think you guys are a bit too concerned about surgical extraction. It seems to get brought up like every page. Yes, it's something that you have to worry about for sure. However, focusing on tuning this deck so that it can just handle the decks of the current meta better seems more important first. A lot of decks don't play surgical, and even the ones that do only play 1-2.

[Seraphus]

I think you guys are a bit too concerned about surgical extraction. It seems to get brought up like every page. Yes, it's something that you have to worry about for sure. However, focusing on tuning this deck so that it can just handle the decks of the current meta better seems more important first. A lot of decks don't play surgical, and even the ones that do only play 1-2.

Exactly just why I don't really care about it...

[Ralf]

I think you guys are a bit too concerned about surgical extraction. It seems to get brought up like every page. Yes, it's something that you have to worry about for sure. However, focusing on tuning this deck so that it can just handle the decks of the current meta better seems more important first. A lot of decks don't play surgical, and even the ones that do only play 1-2.

Ya ya.
But still, getting into something like Slaughter Games, Surgical, Extirpate does happen from time to time.
Oh and I forgot stompy decks which, as a side effect of not playing BF & CW, are just plain harder (G1) than they were...

@ Seraphus:

Well, you didn't list the pros and cons of playing BSZ instead of BF.
We, all know, that BF can be bad sometime. But you will always be able to cast it. It is also harder to counter BF (not a lot of blue decks play kind of Stifle ability but most blue deck plays some counters)

Also I didn't mention mulligans. Playing only one kill MD is asking for more mulligans/trouble. Will you keep an opening 7 with BSZ in against an unknown opponent ? This is a mind trick, I guess. But anyway, I'm still mulliganing way too much to my liking because of the unkeepable one land hand that I would be afraid to further add another source of mulligans because of having BSZ in my opening hand.

Without BF, you are sure that every game will be LONG. Is it something we really want ? I mean playing 9 or 10 hours of BSZ kill during day 1 of a GP is nothing to scorn at...


=> Hello draw brackets...

And at last, I'm not sure overloading the initial mana curve of the deck is something we should do. Replacing CMC 2 & CMC 3 cards with CMC 4+ and CMC 4 is asking to be punished by Tempo decks.

From my personal experience, if I want to play a more oriented "slower" kill as BSZ, I'll need to make more land drops meaning:
- Less bad T1 cantrips -> you could easily replace an opt/peek for a 19th land.
- More board control/slow game down -> Cryptic command is a thing but I could see adding another repeal/bouncing effect by replacing another T1 "bad" cantrip.

These are just some suggestions as I used to playing only BSZ main and finally returned back to BF.

[Marowfreeze]

// Lands
3 Flooded Strand
11 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
1 Laboratory Maniac
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
3 Vendilion Clique

//Meat
4 High Tide
4 Reset
1 Snap
2 Dig Through Time
3 Meditate
1 Blue Sun Zenith

//Counterspells
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
3 Remand

//Cantrip
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
2 Peek
2 Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 2 Cunning Wish
SB: 1 Dig Through Time
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Mindbreak trap
SB: 2 Rebuild
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 2 Wipe Away


Thoughts?

[Ralf]

// Lands
3 Flooded Strand
11 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
1 Laboratory Maniac
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
3 Vendilion Clique

//Meat
4 High Tide
4 Reset
1 Snap
2 Dig Through Time
3 Meditate
1 Blue Sun Zenith

//Counterspells
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
3 Remand

//Cantrip
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
2 Peek
2 Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 2 Cunning Wish
SB: 1 Dig Through Time
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Mindbreak trap
SB: 2 Rebuild
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 2 Wipe Away


Thoughts?

Wow. I saw 4 medidate and no BSZ within your first post !
Same aforementioned issue, I can foresee. Not enough lands with all these 3 CMC cards.

But please keep us posted on your testing.

[Marowfreeze]

Wow. I saw 4 medidate and no BSZ within your first post !
Ya lol I saw that after I posted and fixed XD

[Asthereal]

// Lands
3 Flooded Strand
11 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
1 Laboratory Maniac
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
3 Vendilion Clique

//Meat
4 High Tide
4 Reset
1 Snap
2 Dig Through Time
3 Meditate
1 Blue Sun Zenith

//Counterspells
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
3 Remand

//Cantrip
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
2 Peek
2 Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 2 Cunning Wish
SB: 1 Dig Through Time
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Mindbreak trap
SB: 2 Rebuild
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Turnabout
SB: 2 Wipe Away

Thoughts?
No thoughts, just questions. This list baffles me in so many ways it's hard to describe. Here we go:

1. How does this deck actually win?
2. Why Lab Man when you don't have access to Brain Freeze?
3. Why 9 counterspells AND 3 Cliques?
4. What if you don't find that Zenith? You just lose? (Note we don't have tutors!)

[Seraphus]

forget Teferi I should never had post it

[Marowfreeze]

1. How does this deck actually win?
2. Why Lab Man when you don't have access to Brain Freeze?
3. Why 9 counterspells AND 3 Cliques?
4. What if you don't find that Zenith? You just lose? (Note we don't have tutors!)

Main win is BSZ for lethal or teferi+lab maniac then go through my deck

Counterspell suite is the fairly normal one and I use clique as a cantrip+kill spell or pressure+ disruption vs other combo decks

The idea with this build is to cantrip/dtt/meditate through 40-50 cards of my own deck and let the zenith finish it for cheaper than full zenith on the opponent (8 mana for tef+lab & bsz for 10-20 is still cheaper than bsz on then for 40-50).

[Ralf]

No thoughts, just questions. This list baffles me in so many ways it's hard to describe. Here we go:

1. How does this deck actually win?
2. Why Lab Man when you don't have access to Brain Freeze?
3. Why 9 counterspells AND 3 Cliques?
4. What if you don't find that Zenith? You just lose? (Note we don't have tutors!)

I think he is lowering his win % G1 against fair deck a bit by trying to improve its G1 against combo.
Clock (clique, teferi) + counters is all you need to rape combo deck.

It is rather hard to determine if the % lost against fair decks are > or < to the % won against combo without testing.
There are so much parameters to take into account (not a comprehensive list):

1) Clique can trade with a threat
2) But Clique make opponent's removal live again
3) How much his fizzle rate is increased because of having less draw cards in his deck ?
4) But how much board and stalling effect does he get from being able to actually "tank" a bit more and by how much these effects have an impact on his fizzle rate ?

I would see this version more as a middle man. Something in-between where you can be:
- either the aggo deck in some MU
- or the control deck in others.
with a combo finish !

Maybe something to try.

[Ralf]

forget Teferi I should never had post it

Relax.
You haven't played enough games with him
Or maybe you have realized that the MU where you want him are just to narrow.

My feeling is that a 5 CMC card with 18 lands is pushing hard !

[Dark Ritual]

The dreaded cryptic command makes an appearance yet again. I see no reason for crap like that when we don't have enough slots to work with as is since every single list should have 4 digs maindeck because it's that absurd.

When surgical extraction reads pay 2 life, win the game because it hits cunning wish when you didn't board in a brain freeze that sucks. Thoughtseize into surgical on wish on turn 1 winning the game postboard unless you have a force of will. I'm not at all comfortable with that. And naturally drawing brain freeze isn't all that bad hell it won me a game 2 nights ago when I drew my boarded in freeze while combo'ing allowing me to do freeze snapcaster freeze with just 6 mana in pool. The same is true of boarding out a high tide because otherwise you're running some poor rituals indeed when this deck is manahungry enough as it is/you have to get a lot of lands. Turnabout being dark ritual with 6 lands feels awful. Even when it's lotus it still feels awful/reset has to pull a lot of weight or snapcaster reset/build your own turnabout.

If you want to beat up combo without creatures you can do so easily. I played this deck once pre dig through time against ANT with 3 flusterstorm and 4 force maindeck with 3 snapcasters to flashback flusterstorm. Game 1 he could do *nothing* and when he infernaled for another duress and put duress on the stack I just killed him in response because the game had been going for 10+ turns/if the game goes that long and solidarity isn't winning I don't know what you're doing short of drawing quite poorly.

I feel like teferi + lab man is a pretty bad win con when you could just substitute lab man for brain freeze in that list and have it be infinitely better with snapcasters and remands in there/you don't have to draw your entire deck +1 with lab man and teferi in play instead you get to 9 storm and snapcaster and respond to snapcaster with freeze or the classic freeze remand freeze. Teferi is an interesting idea and one that is great against sneak and show since it performs like xantid swarm against them but you don't have to swing with it and it's permanently in effect regardless of what phase.

[Asthereal]

Main win is BSZ for lethal or teferi+lab maniac then go through my deck

Counterspell suite is the fairly normal one and I use clique as a cantrip+kill spell or pressure+ disruption vs other combo decks

The idea with this build is to cantrip/dtt/meditate through 40-50 cards of my own deck and let the zenith finish it for cheaper than full zenith on the opponent (8 mana for tef+lab & bsz for 10-20 is still cheaper than bsz on then for 40-50).
A few potential flaws in this plan:
- No reliable way to find Zenith
- Many dead cards early on
- Not enough cantrips to consistently "go through your deck", you will inevitably end up with X lands, a few counters and no way to draw cards anymore

Aren't you concerned with these?

[Seraphus]

Relax.
You haven't played enough games with him
Or maybe you have realized that the MU where you want him are just to narrow.

My feeling is that a 5 CMC card with 18 lands is pushing hard !

It's just I do not want to feed the discussion in the direction of doing a teferi's list....

[lexluthor]

The dreaded cryptic command makes an appearance yet again. I see no reason for crap like that when we don't have enough slots to work with as is since every single list should have 4 digs maindeck because it's that absurd.

When surgical extraction reads pay 2 life, win the game because it hits cunning wish when you didn't board in a brain freeze that sucks. Thoughtseize into surgical on wish on turn 1 winning the game postboard unless you have a force of will. I'm not at all comfortable with that. And naturally drawing brain freeze isn't all that bad hell it won me a game 2 nights ago when I drew my boarded in freeze while combo'ing allowing me to do freeze snapcaster freeze with just 6 mana in pool. The same is true of boarding out a high tide because otherwise you're running some poor rituals indeed when this deck is manahungry enough as it is/you have to get a lot of lands. Turnabout being dark ritual with 6 lands feels awful. Even when it's lotus it still feels awful/reset has to pull a lot of weight or snapcaster reset/build your own turnabout.

If you want to beat up combo without creatures you can do so easily. I played this deck once pre dig through time against ANT with 3 flusterstorm and 4 force maindeck with 3 snapcasters to flashback flusterstorm. Game 1 he could do *nothing* and when he infernaled for another duress and put duress on the stack I just killed him in response because the game had been going for 10+ turns/if the game goes that long and solidarity isn't winning I don't know what you're doing short of drawing quite poorly.

I feel like teferi + lab man is a pretty bad win con when you could just substitute lab man for brain freeze in that list and have it be infinitely better with snapcasters and remands in there/you don't have to draw your entire deck +1 with lab man and teferi in play instead you get to 9 storm and snapcaster and respond to snapcaster with freeze or the classic freeze remand freeze. Teferi is an interesting idea and one that is great against sneak and show since it performs like xantid swarm against them but you don't have to swing with it and it's permanently in effect regardless of what phase.


you could post your decklist?

[Il_fabious]

11 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
3 Opt
3 Peek
2 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Cryptic Command
SB: 4 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Rebuild
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Relax it's just testing

I thought about it and I reached this conclusion: IF blue zenith maindeck could be good, the complete lack of bf is bad.
I explain: ideally we try to delay the game as much as we need to play at our pace. It's reasonable then to say that, in ideal conditions, we succesfully played the control role and this has left us with a lot of lands in play, enough gas in hand to start being protected and a bunch of dead cards (combo-wise) already played. Result = mini zenith mid combo on us, if needed, and big zenith to kill them.
Ok.
But what's if all the game does not go this way? It's a possibility.
Maybe they run, maybe you stuck on lands, maybe they try to lock you out, maybe you just don't draw the exactly combination of spells for that situation. IF you are forced to go off BEFORE the ideal turn, with only zenith you are screwed.
So? If you want to throw away your CW that's ok, but I would leave 1 bf maindeck. So -1 wish +1 zenith and stop. This also means that all remands mid combo are not dead and also this means that IF, for some arcane reason, they discard and remove your zenith or they extract your tides, you have a way to win.

[Seraphus]

I am adding BF to the sb don't really know why but yes I guess you guys have a point on extraction...

[Dark Ritual]

4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Dig through Time
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
8 Fetches
10 Islands

SB
2 Snap
2 Brain Freeze
2 Swan Song
1 Turnabout
1 Wipe Away
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Misdirection
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Rebuild
1 Mindbreak Trap

Played this the other night. Felt ridiculously good except when I got land flooded/screwed a few times but that's variance. Sometimes I want 17 land sometimes I want 18. Only thing I want more of is really 1 more flusterstorm maindeck perhaps and a couple more fetches to turn on dig more. Dig in the sideboard as a wish target might be the right call but naturally drawing it is so much better and wishing for it feels quite wrong as meditate is already there to wish for and is 1 mana more at most but drawing 4 in this list is likely to win you the game. Before dig I tried running too much protection but that just makes solidarity way too prone to fizzling although it could be right now since there are 7 big draw spells maindeck and one to wish for unless you count USZ + gobs of mana.

[JDK]

Did you even test this in the current meta or is this for your slowish FNM-meta only?

[ExpiredRascals]

@DR: I think the other thing to consider when choosing whether to run dig vs meditate in the side is which you will most typically prefer to have when not comboing. If you wish for something, you're spending a rather large amount of time/resources to get that card when not comboing. This means that wishing for the SB'd draw spell is probably not something you want to plan on unless you're actually mid combo. This means that the wholly mainboarded spell should be the one you most want to find and cast leading up to the combo. I think this makes it extremely compelling to keep the full playset of DTT in the main over Meditate.

@those siding out High Tide: Is that even really necessary? On Spiral Tide I'd side out High Tide for the protection it offers from Extraction effects, but my experience so far has inclined me not to follow that plan with Solidarity. The plan is effective in spiral tide because you *need* High Tide to go off and you would typically wish for High Tide at their end step before making an attempt if necessary due to extraction. You didn't really miss the extra copy because Merchant Scroll helped pad your numbers anyway. Solidarity is different on a couple accounts:
1. You don't have Merchant Scroll to help find tide. This means that instead of dropping from 8 to 7 easily accessible tides, you're dropping from 4 to 3. Yes, I do find the 2CMC tutor verse 3CMC tutor to be a very large difference in accessibility.
2. You don't really want to spend a turn setting up and revealing to them that you're prepped to go off. It interferes with the wholly reactive gameplan that Solidarity prefers to play.
3. Cunning wishes are more heavily taxed in Solidarity as you often will need to use 2 of the 3 wishes just to kill them without them helping you with a draw spell of their own. This is especially apparent as you also consider the other spells you want to have access to in the wishboard (like Meditate so as to not fizzle for example).
4. Solidarity is capable of low tide kills with brainfreeze while spiral tide realistically is not.

All of the above arguments are actually based on an assumption that your opponent will have an Extraction/Extirpate, and that a tide will be vulnerable to it with no opportunity for interaction (like delving it with DTT, Snapcasting in response, or countering the extraction). They do not take into account that extraction packages are in my experience rather uncommon, so by boarding out a tide, not only are you making a change that may not be necessary/correct against extraction, but you more than likely are weakening your deck in fear of a card they likely don't have.

Accordingly, even though I will board in a Brain Freeze in most postboard games (in part due to extraction, in part to lower the burden on wishes), at this point I don't believe the default plan should be to SB out a tide.

[Asthereal]

@ExpiredRascals:
That's a very high quality post considering it's your first ever here. :wink:
Welcome to the active part of The Source!

I'm with you all the way concerning siding out Tide.
I toyed around with Lossett's old list with 4x Wish and a Tide on side.
It's just bad. Needing to Wish for Tide is soo vulnerable to taxing counters...
It also shows the opponent exactly what you are up to. I really don't like it.

[JDK]

I toyed around with Lossett's old list with 4x Wish and a Tide on side.
Why would you even do that? It wouldn't even take a monkey to figure out that stuff...

I mean, seriously, just watch him play and you will never take anything seriously he says about the deck...

[Asthereal]

Why would you even do that? It wouldn't even take a monkey to figure out that stuff...

I mean, seriously, just watch him play and you will never take anything seriously he says about the deck...
LOL a condescending remark on a semi pro. :laugh: (Or is he full pro? I'm not sure actually..)
I will just assume you were drunk when you posted this, but in case you weren't, I'll elaborate. :wink:

Of course Lossett's no expert. He just saw the deck and got interested.
But he didn't invent the deck. He just tried a list he encountered.
And when he first streamed on Twitch he had almost zero experience.
Do you remember how well you played this deck with almost no experience?
Not to mention he makes mistakes all the time when he is streaming.
I saw him streaming a daily with Miracles, which he is an expert in, and he messed up quite a lot.

Why would I try that list?
- I didn't, and still don't, like Seraphus's list. Too much interaction for my taste.
- I had a list I liked better than Lossett's old one, but Lossett's was so different I wanted to give it a shot just to see what it did. I can theorycraft quite well, but often just playing with something tells you way more.
- There's not that many people posting here who actually know this deck well, so there's not too many lists for comparison.
- I am not on expert on this deck by any means.

Anyway, Feline's list is the first one I really like. Cutting the Turnabouts makes room for Snap-Snapcaster, which I feel is really strong. The full set of cantrips also helps finding combo pieces. I'll stick to that list while trying to build up enough practice to play this in a tournament.

[Seraphus]

Did you see that Girl that looked like a Barbie playing on scg this past weekend?

https://www.facebook.com/StarCityGames/photos/a.10152532197997918.1073741974.174376972917/10152533700767918/?type=3&theater

Interaction is good!

[astormbrewing]

This is the list I am building and will be playing on Magic Online soon. I have some upcoming tournaments in January, as well, since I have the deck in paper now, too.

1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
3 Dig Through Time
2 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
4 Opt
1 Pact of Negation
1 Repeal
4 Reset
2 Snap
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
10 Island

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Dig Through Time
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pact of Negation
1 Polymorphist's Jest
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Snap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away

I played this archetype in the past prior to playing Spiral Tide, so I'm not unfamiliar with it. The goal is to play a good amount on MTGO and keep copious notes to help tweak it to where I really want it.

[JDK]

LOL a condescending remark on a semi pro. :laugh: (Or is he full pro? I'm not sure actually..)
I will just assume you were drunk when you posted this, but in case you weren't, I'll elaborate. :wink:

Of course Lossett's no expert. He just saw the deck and got interested.
But he didn't invent the deck. He just tried a list he encountered.
And when he first streamed on Twitch he had almost zero experience.
Do you remember how well you played this deck with almost no experience?
Not to mention he makes mistakes all the time when he is streaming.
I saw him streaming a daily with Miracles, which he is an expert in, and he messed up quite a lot.

Why would I try that list?
- I didn't, and still don't, like Seraphus's list. Too much interaction for my taste.
- I had a list I liked better than Lossett's old one, but Lossett's was so different I wanted to give it a shot just to see what it did. I can theorycraft quite well, but often just playing with something tells you way more.
- There's not that many people posting here who actually know this deck well, so there's not too many lists for comparison.
- I am not on expert on this deck by any means.

So your point is, that I am drunk because I have a ton more experience with the deck than Lossett and can spot obvious flaws, while you cannot?
Well, according to that, I am drunk as hell. Excuse me.

[Asthereal]

So your point is, that I am drunk because I have a ton more experience with the deck than Lossett and can spot obvious flaws, while you cannot?
Well, according to that, I am drunk as hell. Excuse me.
Condescending vs. understanding. That's hard if you're drunk.
But I guess you were condescending on purpose. That's fine.
Anyway, I tried that list because I hadn't seen it before.
In a way I am just like Lossett in this case.

But I suggest we return to actual deck discussion. This is pointless.

[eostby]

I know this goes a little ways back in the thread, but I like having 1 High Tide in the sideboard as a Wish target. The fact that it dodges Extraction effects is a bonus in my mind, because most of the time, I want to be able to Wish for a Tide when I haven't drawn one otherwise (I know, it ruins the element of surprise if you grab one EOT, but how many other Legacy decks have the all-Island manabase anyway?) or grab one mid-combo for extra storm/mana boosts.

[Asthereal]

I know this goes a little ways back in the thread, but I like having 1 High Tide in the sideboard as a Wish target. The fact that it dodges Extraction effects is a bonus in my mind, because most of the time, I want to be able to Wish for a Tide when I haven't drawn one otherwise (I know, it ruins the element of surprise if you grab one EOT, but how many other Legacy decks have the all-Island manabase anyway?) or grab one mid-combo for extra storm/mana boosts.
Actually, it goes back one post. :tongue:
And we decided it's bad. Lossett got bashed for trying it.

The thing is: Wish is by far our most clunky card.
It's very prone to taxing counters and stuff like REB/Pyroblast.
When you cast it on turn 3 at end of turn, and it gets countered, it's backbreaking.
You almost never want to cast Wish before the combo turn.
(Only reason would be to grab something to save you, like Rebuild or so.)

Additionally, having only 3 Tide main means the chance to draw it naturally goes down quite a bit, so in fact you will quite often have to Wish for it. Just try both for a while against decks like UR and UWR Delver, and you'll notice.

[feline]

I wouldn't bash Lossett for trying a High Tide in the sideboard with that original list he ran, I'm the one that provided the list because I did a list as such before going to a more current one (List since GP Jersey).

[alastair]

I like the resilience and consistency of High Tide in the SB with ~3 Wish, which offers a significantly higher likelihood of having HT/Wish in your opening seven. The downside is obvious with higher mana requirements to Wish-HT, but it’s a tradeoff correct in certain meta. Speed ‘vs’ Consistency.

Opt/peek are just a little weak in filtering to a 4’of sometimes. You end up leaning on Impulse, and at 2cmc, there is an argument to just run Wish to guarantee getting it; with the benefit of freeing the weaker filter slots for disruption.

[Asthereal]

I wouldn't bash Lossett for trying a High Tide in the sideboard with that original list he ran, I'm the one that provided the list because I did a list as such before going to a more current one (List since GP Jersey).
I was talking about JDK on the previous page.
What were your reasons to move the 4th High Tide to the main?
Same as the ones I descibed above?

[ExpiredRascals]

I like the resilience and consistency of High Tide in the SB with ~3 Wish, which offers a significantly higher likelihood of having HT/Wish in your opening seven. The downside is obvious with higher mana requirements to Wish-HT, but it’s a tradeoff correct in certain meta. Speed ‘vs’ Consistency.

Opt/peek are just a little weak in filtering to a 4’of sometimes. You end up leaning on Impulse, and at 2cmc, there is an argument to just run Wish to guarantee getting it; with the benefit of freeing the weaker filter slots for disruption.

I've found very little issues finding High Tide, personally. There's a couple things to this:

As hinted at in my earlier post, I believe that DTT is essential as a 4-of in the maindeck. DTT is castable in this deck starting around turn 3, potentially even for the straight UU cost. This means that DTT can be counted with Impulse as a 2CMC spell to hand-sculpt -- it doesn't just need to be used in the late game or when comboing. With this in mind, High Tide has been fairly easy to access when I feel I need it.

There is another factor, however, that I believe to also be important: High Tide is not an essential card to have in hand when going off. I've gone off with just a DTT or Meditate digging, hitting gas, and combo'ing from there. This is quite common with DTT in particular. Sometimes you hit High Tide, sometimes you just happen to hit enough to combo them out low tide with something like remand or snapcaster to double up on the storm trigger.

With the above in mind, i think you're overemphasizing the importance of hitting High Tide, and in doing so I believe you're sacrificing some of the innate flexibility of the deck as well as its ability to "accidentally combo" with exploratory sculpting (think of when you cast DTT or Meditate just for value on an end step and just hit what you need to feel comfortable making an attempt to combo. While High Tide may not be essential, it's obviously a great hit in such situations. Cunning Wish as a stand-in for tide is definitely not a good hit there on the other hand)


As an additional comment not wholly germane to the conversation about wishing for tide, I think that you should not be counting Peek as part of your cantrip package. By this I mean that while Peek does replace itself, it provides no card filtering and thus is a very poor card to run with the intent of digging to gas. Peek is fine if you feel you need to know their hand at minimal cost, but in my opinion it's not something you should really run with the intent of smoothing your draws.

Pre-post edit: I didn't know how to work this in above, but I think that the logic of "if I'm spending 2 mana to find tide, I might as well use cunning wish" is terribly flawed. 2 mana vs 3 mana is HUGE. It changes your breakpoints in how much land you need in order to be effective, it has a huge impact on how many spells a turn you can cast, etc. I do not believe that this is correct in any meta, because I honestly cannot think of a circumstance where that does not matter. In the Miracle match-up, where I frequently manage to fetch out every island in the deck, I still am constantly constrained by mana as it limits the actions I can take in a turn, and casting Cunning Wish is always the greatest inconvenience. That's not to mention how crippling it is due to giving them advance warning that I'm nearing a hand capable of going off. And this is in the slowest match-up we have in the format. As the opposing deck gets faster, the less we want to spend an entire turn on a wish. There's also the matter that people are much more likely to go out of their way to counter a wish due to the fear it creates than to counter a simple card selection cantrip. This is pretty brutal when you consider that it is already soaking an entire turn and most opponents will be happy to timewalk us with a simple daze or spell pierce.

[feline]

I moved the 4th High Tide to the main when I basically wanted to try a different version of it, the difference in versions was this if I remember correctly:

Version 1:
Main:
3 High Tide
3 Reset
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
3 Dig through Time
4 Cunning Wish
4 Remand
Then counters / cantrips / lands

Version 2:
Main
4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Meditate
3 Dig through Time
3 Cunning Wish
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Snap
Then counters / cantrips / lands

The issues I had weren't so much getting to the first High Tide as much as they were getting to a second High Tide, and with Snapcaster Mage tricks, you can cast the second High Tide pretty quick and once your Islands are tapping for 3+ mana, that's when things usually get fairly comfortable, I was having a lot less fizzling issues with version 2 basically. I did version 1 at SCG Minneapolis going 3-6. Version 2 I ran at GP Jersey and made day II, as well as going 5-4 at the following SCG the next weekend.

TLDR? Getting the second High Tide to resolve as soon as possible seemed pretty important in my time with the deck, so I cut Remand and added Snapcaster Mage and the results, as well as testing, proved themselves to me. -Remand +Snapcaster Mage.

[alastair]

Agree Rascals…. I much prefer 4x HT’s main, as the deck goldfishes better in this configuration. But, my environment is hostile to combo, and equally rife with fast combo. There is a greater reward for sculpting your hand via Wish into your missing piece (HT, Turnabout, Meditate); and occasions were Wish for Fluster/Pact is you’re only out to staying in the game.

I also would not discount the benefit Wish gives in Hunting Pack and option for zero MD Brainfreeze.

Against disruption light decks, I’d happily play 4 MD HT.

Re: the second HT to combo. Deck space is tight, so you are in effect faced with a choice of either 2-3 turnabouts (which I hate), or committing to having to resolve a second HT via Tiago. The upside is that Tiago justifies Snap’s inclusion which can be used defensively, as well as flashback-Reset (which feels so much better than turnabout). Tiago every time for me, with Turnabout as a Wish fallback option.

[Asthereal]

I also would not discount the benefit Wish gives in Hunting Pack and option for zero MD Brainfreeze.
Do you still play Hunting Pack?
With a main board Tropical Island?
This does allow for sideboard Krosan Grip, if we want those.
Not sure whether we do though. I don't think I could find space for them.



I did version 1 at SCG Minneapolis going 3-6. Version 2 I ran at GP Jersey and made day II, as well as going 5-4 at the following SCG the next weekend.
Do you feel these results speak for themselves, or was the bad result in Minneapolis more due to variance / suboptimal play / hostile matchups? At first glance it seems clear that your second list performs much better, but one event per list is of course not even close to enough to be able to draw conclusions.

I personally feel your second list is the way to go. It has a smooth flow, the cards combine very well and the fact that it contains no real bad cards is very appealing. I personally run 10 Island 9 Fetch, but I'm not sure that's necessary. The life loss is relevant sometimes, but so is the extra card in the graveyard to Dig away. Has anyone tested this extensively yet?

[alastair]

Do you still play Hunting Pack?
With a main board Tropical Island?
This does allow for sideboard Krosan Grip, if we want those.
Not sure whether we do though. I don't think I could find space for them.


I do. A bit of a hangover from days past, but for the cost of one SB slot, and a single Dual, I do like its inclusion for the Jund type matchups and painter etc running Emrkul.

[astormbrewing]

I love the conflicting viewpoints we have between ExpiredRascals (High Tide is not essential) and Feline (resolving two High Tides is essential), yet no one is discussing this. Seriously, this thread has so many sub-conversations that it becomes useless.

I think both arguments re:High Tide are correct, depending on circumstances. If you have the ability to play 5-7 lands, then High Tide is not very essential. If you are trying to combo with 3-4 lands, then resolving a High Tide or two is key. I also believe that Feline's opinion stems from her vast experience with Spiral Tide, where that opinion has a lot more weight. We have a much more efficient untap source in Reset, and it reduces our need to cast all the High Tides as fast as we can. However, we should still be trying to resolve High Tide, because the resource benefit is huge.

By running 4 Impulse, 3/4 Meditate, and 3/4 Dig Through Time in the main, it becomes quite easy to find a High Tide. There is no need to move one to the sideboard to give us more ways of getting one, especially when Cunning Wish is clunky at 3 mana.

I really think the way to go is to run 4 High Tide in the main, and include a Brain Freeze in the main, as well. My specific advice for Feline would be to worry less about casting 2 High Tides as fast as possible, and instead save your Snapcaster Mages for Resets. We don't need an obscene amount of mana to win with this deck. Impulse and Dig Through Time cost 2 mana, and they allow us to dig to find the specific card(s) we need to continue to combo. Additionally, with Snapcaster Mage and possibly Remand, you don't have to cast as many spells to Brain Freeze your opponent for lethal.

[JDK]

Seriously, this thread has so many sub-conversations that it becomes useless.
Or it's because people throw in random/old lists/ideas without (proper) testing. Eventually they come to the same conclusions as the ones who actually played the deck - just later. And the cycle continues. :wink:

To stop my condescending tone and add actual content:
Resolving High Tide is important. In most cases you have to at least use one during your combo. Preferably two. If you have to Zenith, then there is no arguing about this.
Unless you are against slow decks you will most likely operate on 3-5 lands (5 being optimistic), which makes it hard to generate enough mana with Resets alone, since you just gain 1-3 mana in those cases per Reset. Additional -1 to 1 if you add Snapcaster Mage's flashback clause into the mix. A single High Tide drastically increases your resources and turns otherwise dead Snaps on. A second, third and so on make Snap just so much better and allow you to have that crucial mana left if you have to desperately dig for gas.

[Seraphus]

Or it's because people throw in random/old lists/ideas without (proper) testing. Eventually they come to the same conclusions as the ones who actually played the deck - just later. And the cycle continues. :wink:

Now you do know how I feel!!! :laugh:

[Holly]

Just a random thought. Not tested + I am by no means an expert playing this deck, actually I've only played it a few times so far, last time being way before KTK.
But has anyone given a thought about, instead of trying to reducing Brainfreeze to a minimum, maxing it?
I'm talking about 4 SCM, 3-4 Brainfreeze and maybe if possible additional Remands.
Brainfreeze for storm 8+9 is more likely lethal than not, Emrakul is getting rarer at the moment (though you probably just autolose g1 to any deck playing it).
I could at least see a list in theory trying to max out on these spells, 4 DTT, the usual stuff and stall between Repeal & Remand.

I guess in the end it very likely might not be worth getting hit by graveyard hate, making one more dependent on SCM (removal says hi) etc. Additional one could easily get horrible starting hands with like 2 Brainfreeze, 2 Remand..
so all in all its probably bad and I'll get called out on it - but anyway.. did someone put some more thought into the idea before throwing it away?

[Seraphus]

Just a random thought. Not tested + I am by no means an expert playing this deck, actually I've only played it a few times so far, last time being way before KTK.
But has anyone given a thought about, instead of trying to reducing Brainfreeze to a minimum, maxing it?
I'm talking about 4 SCM, 3-4 Brainfreeze and maybe if possible additional Remands.
Brainfreeze for storm 8+9 is more likely lethal than not, Emrakul is getting rarer at the moment (though you probably just autolose g1 to any deck playing it).
I could at least see a list in theory trying to max out on these spells, 4 DTT, the usual stuff and stall between Repeal & Remand.

I guess in the end it very likely might not be worth getting hit by graveyard hate, making one more dependent on SCM (removal says hi) etc. Additional one could easily get horrible starting hands with like 2 Brainfreeze, 2 Remand..
so all in all its probably bad and I'll get called out on it - but anyway.. did someone put some more thought into the idea before throwing it away?

yes the original list played 4 BF also I tried that and the question is exactly what you refer BF is useless in pre-combo and mid-combo; I repeat what I said: every card must have its purpose (in quantity and in the structure of the deck) my list has some though plays unnoticed at the first glance. The risks I assume are compensated by the fact that I can ran a 3 lands combo easily but never by my choice - snap, repeal, remand, fluster, postboard is even better! make me play a game of "I control the game!" however there's also some games which it's like: I cannot control the game lets go for a clock and so I transform snap into a untap effect, remand into a give me back my spell or bluff card etc. what I am saying is according to the fluency of the game all the cards I use are multifunctional and BF is not...

[Kanti]

Brain Freeze isn't multi-functional? Brian Freeze couples with Brainstorm to make it an Ancestral Recall*, turns on Dig through Time, clears Counterbalance via a Spell>CB-Top spin>Brain Freeze, or just allows you to go around Counterbalance completely by casting double Freeze. It also doesn't eat into you sideboard, pre-board. You really coudn't ask for more from a kill card.

I actually had a huge post written out on the decision by some (Feline) to cut the Brain Freeze's for Flusterstorms, as I see the two tackling some of the same issues in different ways (counterspells). Flusterstorm differs in that it hits pro-active spells, versus just counters, whereas Brain Freeze allows you go to off in the face of counters and in the face of Counterbalance. Flusterstorm combines very well with Snapcaster Mage, allowing the deck to have access to a ridiculous amount of counters, and interaction is something I've always enjoyed in the deck. But goldfishing someone with Brain Freeze has it's merits. I have a feeling Feline just ported her FoW+Flusterstorm package, if not saw a place where it could better fit with Snapcaster Mage. This might be right, it might be wrong. I do however love Brain Freeze in the main, because of it's functionality and because, more than anything else, it allows the deck to win small. If I'm gonna Wish for a Brain Freeze, then I'm probably en route to Stroke my opponent out. Going Tide>Cantrip>Reset>Snapcaster>Snap>Snapcaster>Brain Freeze>Brain Freeze flashback or a variation is rather easy, and allows for smaller chains.

I do love the 19th land. Been rocking that for years myself, it is better than any spell could have ever been for me. Helps me use my cantrips to find spells, rather than lands.

Brew away, interested to hear all your thoughts.

[Seraphus]

Brain Freeze isn't multi-functional? Brian Freeze couples with Brainstorm to make it an Ancestral Recall*, turns on Dig through Time, clears Counterbalance via a Spell>CB-Top spin>Brain Freeze, or just allows you to go around Counterbalance completely by casting double Freeze. It also doesn't eat into you sideboard, pre-board. You really coudn't ask for more from a kill card.

I actually had a huge post written out on the decision by some (Feline) to cut the Brain Freeze's for Flusterstorms, as I see the two tackling some of the same issues in different ways (counterspells). Flusterstorm differs in that it hits pro-active spells, versus just counters, whereas Brain Freeze allows you go to off in the face of counters and in the face of Counterbalance. Flusterstorm combines very well with Snapcaster Mage, allowing the deck to have access to a ridiculous amount of counters, and interaction is something I've always enjoyed in the deck. But goldfishing someone with Brain Freeze has it's merits. I have a feeling Feline just ported her FoW+Flusterstorm package, if not saw a place where it could better fit with Snapcaster Mage. This might be right, it might be wrong. I do however love Brain Freeze in the main, because of it's functionality and because, more than anything else, it allows the deck to win small. If I'm gonna Wish for a Brain Freeze, then I'm probably en route to Stroke my opponent out. Going Tide>Cantrip>Reset>Snapcaster>Snap>Snapcaster>Brain Freeze>Brain Freeze flashback or a variation is rather easy, and allows for smaller chains.

I do love the 19th land. Been rocking that for years myself, it is better than any spell could have ever been for me. Helps me use my cantrips to find spells, rather than lands.

Brew away, interested to hear all your thoughts.

that process of playing cb was mention by me a few years ago. however with flusterstorm being played on CB decks it's no longer viable.

Indeed you are right Fluster+mage is a very strong combination.

I should say that you might misunderstood my previous post; putting it simple BF is good MD but only 1!

[Asthereal]

Brainfreeze yourself for like 21 and then proceed to stack your entire deck with Flash of Insight used to be the idea. The old list I knew before DTT and Snapcaster had 2x Brainfreeze main and a 3rd on side of I remember correctly.

Brainfreeze indeed has become better with Snapcaster, but since we don't play Flash of Insight anymore, I think minimizing the number of Brainfreezes is better than maximizing it.

[Squirrel]

While im quite new to the Solidarity deck, as soon as Dig cam out, i instantly :tongue: thought about Solidarity.

Since then I found 3 Brain freeze quite nice, often resulting in eot brain freezing after my Opponent played a bunch of Spells (nice vs Glimpse :D), almost always putting 6 Cards in my Grave to go off with Dig.

With 4 Snappy this shortened the stormcount, as double brain freeze is more likely, so you don't need to get the big Spell chain going.

[Hopo]

Also upping the # of Brain freezes raises up the question of which one is better: Dig Through Time or Visions of Beyond. It might or might not be a reasonable comparison, but there were times when people were freezing just to start chaining Visions'.

[ExpiredRascals]

Brainfreeze yourself for like 21 and then proceed to stack your entire deck with Flash of Insight used to be the idea. The old list I knew before DTT and Snapcaster had 2x Brainfreeze main and a 3rd on side of I remember correctly.

Brainfreeze indeed has become better with Snapcaster, but since we don't play Flash of Insight anymore, I think minimizing the number of Brainfreezes is better than maximizing it.

The Brain Freeze + Flash of Insight play was also severely hurt by the M10 rules change. Under the pre-M10 rules, flash not only could stack your deck, but it made all of the milled instants available for cunning wish. When wishes were effectively nerfed to be unable to fetch RFG'd cards, the flash plan died. Even Snapcaster recursion doesn't really fit that loss in functionality (snapcaster is sweet, but it plays much nicer with the "recast something" plan than with the "mill myself with brainfreeze" plan).

[Ralf]

I hate to be THAT guy, but none of the latest lists, posted here, seems to stand a chance against tempo decks.

If you, guys, think you can effectively win most of your games packing 4 DTT, 3 BF and other non sense, you really need to play more in real games.

Solidarity is not about goldfishing your opponent. And it never was. You don't need to make your first game better against non interactive fair decks, we already have it...
And I shouldn't have to remind that a match is not all about winning G1...

Every list I saw here (except Seraphus), reads T1 Delver, T2 blind flip, GG ?

Operating and winning with 3 lands in play is a sweet dream. It can happen but most of the time you'll win with at least 5 lands in play.

Drawing/digging effects are already plenty. You'll lose more games because of not enough lands in play rather than because of fizzling during the combo turn and you can mark my word here.
And if you fizzle with 3 lands in play, it is not because of drawing/digging power, it is BECAUSE OF NOT ENOUGH LANDS IN PLAY.

Fizzling will still happen (with >5 lands) but DTT (replacing some impulse) has already pushed the number to a very low %.

=>Rule n°1 is still true (even more today): make land drops.

Focus on rule n°1 and your win % will increase drastically.

Once the first stage is clear, you'll wonder how to tune your deck to:
1) Buy some more turns so you could make even more land drops -> board control/stack control
2) Lower your fizzle rate -> learn how to win "small" or "big" in some circumstances
3) Adapt your deck to your meta (MTGO = lots of miracle/storm, Opens, GP etc...)

Pick up tested lists with explained choices, before making any of your own adjustments.
Play test (and not goldfish) it until the point where you are comfortable with bringing it to a tournament. And when I mean "play test" I mean with sideboard. Winning G1 is most of the time a piece of cake.

Sorry for banging on opened doors but I feel I had to make those statements !

If you don't follow these tips, you'll end up dropping the deck and saying "well, Solidarity is a crappy deck".

[Asthereal]

I hate to be THAT guy, but none of the latest lists, posted here, seems to stand a chance against tempo decks.
(And a lot of explanation of this point.)
Your point is valid, but I would appreciate it if you would help us out.
Just stating we lose to Tempo doesn't actually help us not lose to Tempo.

It is true that this deck has issues beating aggressive blue decks.
Fast clock plus strong stack interaction is just good against a combo deck.
But that's not our only troublesome matchup.

To be able to navigate through a tournament comfortably, we need answers to a few things. The following are our main enemies. If the opponent has one of those, we are usually fine. We are likely to lose if the opponent manages to cough up two (or more) of these:
1. Stack interaction.
2. Heavy discard.
3. Hate permanents/bears.
4. Reasonably fast clock.
5. Faster combo than us.
(6. Emrakul effects.)

Based on this, let's look at our matchups.

Big trouble
- Blue midrange (UWR, UGR, UR, UBG Delver, perhaps Merfolk): mediocre clock + lots of stack interaction. Tier 1.
- Miracles: CounterTop + stack interaction, very slow clock. Tier 1.
- Dredge: heavy discard + fast clock. Tier 2.
- Prison decks: many hate permanents + mediocre clock. Tier 2.5.
- Reanimator: faster combo + discard and stack interaction. Tier 2.
- Sneak & Show: Emrakul effect + faster combo + stack interaction. Tier 1.5.

Some trouble
- Storm combo: faster combo than us + discard. Tier 1.5.
- Death & Taxes, Maverick: many hate permanents + mediocre clock. Tier 1.5.
- Jund: heavy discard + some REB/Pyroblast + mediocre clock. Tier 2.

Good matchups
- Burn: fast clock, some hate bears, some REB/Pyroblasts. Tier 2.
- Elves: fast clock, but very little interaction. Tier 1.
- Tezzeret.dec: some hate permanents, some stack interaction, very slow clock. Tier 2.

Byes (or VERY good matchups, if you will)
- Lands: almost no interaction, slow clock. Tier 2.5.
- Nic Fit: gives us Islands, some discard, slow clock. Tier 2.5.

Please comment on the list. I'm sure it's not complete yet, and perhaps one or two decks need to be moved to different categories. Also the Tier X is based on my experience here in NL. It's probably not a good reflection of the average meta. So by all means, help improve this list.

If we manage to get our matchup analysis complete, we can optimize Solidarity into a "stock" list. Right now I see more or less two approaches (forgive my terrible name-giving...): Seraphus's Stalling Solidarity (3x Repeal, 3x Remand main board) and Feline's Snap Solidarity (4x Impulse, Snapcaster-Snap main board). Which approach is better obviously depends on what matchups you face, and both have their merits, but I feel the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. The only question is where, and the answer to that question lies in proper matchup analysis en heavy playtesting. So let's start!

[Ralf]

Your point is valid, but I would appreciate it if you would help us out.
Just stating we lose to Tempo doesn't actually help us not lose to Tempo.

It is true that this deck has issues beating aggressive blue decks.
Fast clock plus strong stack interaction is just good against a combo deck.
But that's not our only troublesome matchup.

To be able to navigate through a tournament comfortably, we need answers to a few things. The following are our main enemies. If the opponent has one of those, we are usually fine. We are likely to lose if the opponent manages to cough up two (or more) of these:
1. Stack interaction.
2. Heavy discard.
3. Hate permanents/bears.
4. Reasonably fast clock.
5. Faster combo than us.
(6. Emrakul effects.)

Based on this, let's look at our matchups.

Big trouble
- Blue midrange (UWR, UGR, UR, UBG Delver, perhaps Merfolk): mediocre clock + lots of stack interaction. Tier 1.
- Miracles: CounterTop + stack interaction, very slow clock. Tier 1.
- Dredge: heavy discard + fast clock. Tier 2.
- Prison decks: many hate permanents + mediocre clock. Tier 2.5.
- Reanimator: faster combo + discard and stack interaction. Tier 2.
- Sneak & Show: Emrakul effect + faster combo + stack interaction. Tier 1.5.

Some trouble
- Storm combo: faster combo than us + discard. Tier 1.5.
- Death & Taxes, Maverick: many hate permanents + mediocre clock. Tier 1.5.
- Jund: heavy discard + some REB/Pyroblast + mediocre clock. Tier 2.

Good matchups
- Burn: fast clock, some hate bears, some REB/Pyroblasts. Tier 2.
- Elves: fast clock, but very little interaction. Tier 1.
- Tezzeret.dec: some hate permanents, some stack interaction, very slow clock. Tier 2.

Byes (or VERY good matchups, if you will)
- Lands: almost no interaction, slow clock. Tier 2.5.
- Nic Fit: gives us Islands, some discard, slow clock. Tier 2.5.

Please comment on the list. I'm sure it's not complete yet, and perhaps one or two decks need to be moved to different categories. Also the Tier X is based on my experience here in NL. It's probably not a good reflection of the average meta. So by all means, help improve this list.

If we manage to get our matchup analysis complete, we can optimize Solidarity into a "stock" list. Right now I see more or less two approaches (forgive my terrible name-giving...): Seraphus's Stalling Solidarity (3x Repeal, 3x Remand main board) and Feline's Snap Solidarity (4x Impulse, Snapcaster-Snap main board). Which approach is better obviously depends on what matchups you face, and both have their merits, but I feel the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. The only question is where, and the answer to that question lies in proper matchup analysis en heavy playtesting. So let's start!

Well, you do already have some lists in this thread meeting some of your expectations.
I can post mine (which is mostly the same as Seraphus' one back when he was playing 1 BF and 1 CW MD) if you want but by no means you should consider it as a finished one. Just maybe a good starting point as it is designed to be able to handle Tempo decks.

I don't share your vision about Feline vs Seraphus/mine list. You do have Snap + Snapcaster MD in both versions, just in different quantities. However Feline is not playing repeal and I think, right now, it is a really bad move. The fact that Seraphus & me have converged to the exact (2 or 3 cards) same list should at least prove that this is not a pure coincidence. And we don't even know each other.

I disagree with some of your assessments about matchups.
But I will only speak about match I played against.

1) Blue midrange = lightly favourable (Stoneblade U/W/x):
- Deathblade is the most annoying because of discard + DRS and a better clock
- Jeskai delver is mostly a bye G1 unless he has it all (delver T1, bind flip + infinite counters). G2 & G3 are a bit more spicy because of hatebears + pyro effects but still manageable.
- Pure U/W is usually a walk in the park
- Jeskai pyromancer can be compared to Jeskai delver. Really manageable.

2) Among tempo decks (unfavoured to even):
- Temur Delver is the worst nightmare by a fair margin (unfavoured)
- BUG Delver is close to even. Their discard does not match our CA engine and they have to have a fast clock if not the game is likely yours. Still DRS is a pain.
- Delver/xxx. There are multiples delver deck outta there. We cannot test them all, but what I can tell is that as long as they are not packing "Stifle" & "Mongoose" in their list, we should be close to even.


3) Aggro deck:
- Merfolk -> I usually don't have any problems with Fish but hell they can sometime pull out some really fast clock and are known to be combo killers
- Zoo -> Favourable (yes don't ask me why but I have a friend who loves Zoo...)
- D&T -> Favourable unless non sense starting hands (usually involving Vial, MoR, Thalia + clock)
- Jund -> Even you generally bulldoze them G1 and things get spicy G2 & G3. My friend playing Spiral Tide keeps losing against Jund and the last 10 matches against the same Jund player I didn't lose a single match (but a lot of matches went to 3 games). Guess, variance is a thing. Don't get caught by a nasty surgical extraction.


4) Control deck:
- Miracle -> My personal experience is that I don't struggle beating miracle. Countertop is a beating but apart from that it is pretty easy.
- Nic Fit -> Bye, even if I managed losing last time (against myself) against GBW Nic Fit.
- Lands -> Dunno, never played against one.
- Stompy/MUD/Prison decks -> Chalice @ 1 is a beating with my list. Apart from that I'd say even post board. To be locked or not. Sylvan plug is a beating for exemple. Chalice @ 1 + Trini + Choke was to much to handle last tournament.

5) Combo deck:
- Burn -> They are faster. Last 2 matches , Draw 1-1. Eidolon is a beating even when you have access to repeal.
- Storm -> They are faster. Last 3 matches (vs ANT not TES), I won each 2-0. I cannot draw any conclusions. MBT, Fluster, FOW, Ravenous Trap are a beating.
- Elves -> They are faster. Last 5 matches, I lost 4-1. Unfavoured, sure thing. Remanding a NO is brutal but so are their DRS machine guns...
- S&T -> They are faster. As weird as it is, didn't face one since 6 months.
- Dredge -> They are faster. F. nightmare. Ravenous trap is not enough post board but I don't want to spend anymore sideboard space for this not so commun MU.
- Reanimator -> They are faster. Same as S&T. But I believe it is not very far from dredge except we can, at least interact on the stack.

Here is my last tournament report, if you didn't read it.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12086-Deck-Solidarity&p=851438&viewfull=1#post851438

I should have done 3-2 but went 2-3 to my own stupidity.
1) Sylvan Plug cannot be helped. Don't bother.
2) Against BANT, we are even, I guess. I don't play test this MU but I can see, a GSZ@0 or a T1 Noble when you are on the draw, being difficult to beat. Anyway, being on a mull to 5 and 6 didn't help the matchup at all.
3) The match against Temur Delver was EPIC. I made him sweat like no other combo deck.

[Valtrix]

Do you find that (good) people, on your combo turn, target your high tides or resets or card draw more often with their counterspells? (Or just try to delay you by stopping development spells?) (It's hard for me to get "good" testing right now :/ But I'll have this deck in paper soon to play more with it.)

[JDK]

Right now I see more or less two approaches (forgive my terrible name-giving...): Seraphus's Stalling Solidarity (3x Repeal, 3x Remand main board) and Feline's Snap Solidarity (4x Impulse, Snapcaster-Snap main board).

Feline's Snap Solidarity? Is this a history lesson gone wrong?

[Asthereal]

Feline's Snap Solidarity? Is this a history lesson gone wrong?
Feline got two deck techs with it and made it popular.
Please try to add to the discussion instead of posting this random stuff.

[feline]

Technically I think he's referring to the fact that Snapcaster-Snap is something that has been a shell long before I did it more recently 8-) Whoever was the originator thank you, or, originators.

[Seraphus]

11 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
3 Opt
3 Peek
2 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Rebuild
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Annul
SB: 1 Snapback

[benthetenor]

Technically I think he's referring to the fact that Snapcaster-Snap is something that has been a shell long before I did it more recently 8-) Whoever was the originator thank you, or, originators.

My friend Jeff Blyden had the idea, though I'm the one who started writing about it here and developing it further.

[Il_fabious]

11 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
3 Opt
3 Peek
2 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Rebuild
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Annul
SB: 1 Snapback

The maindeck is what I suggested you in my last post ;)
In the sideboard, don't you think that #2mindbreak trap could be a nice add since you play already 2 PoN in the maindeck that help to "trigger" the traps? :)

[Ralf]

The maindeck is what I suggested you in my last post ;)
In the sideboard, don't you think that #2mindbreak trap could be a nice add since you play already 2 PoN in the maindeck that help to "trigger" the traps? :)

???
Mindbreak trap reads "If an opponent cast three or more spells this turn, you may pay {0} rather than pay Mindbreak Trap's mana cost. Exile any number of target spells."

I don't see PoN helping you trigger the traps.

[Ralf]

SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Rebuild
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Annul
SB: 1 Snapback

1) Annul is too narrow to my taste. And the only thing you are hitting relevantly is "enchantment" because you have already access to 3 Rebuild. Unless you want to lower your mana curve to better answer stompy decks (& side effect for CB). Have you been annoyed by anything, lately ? (Eidolon, SoL?). I think you are over reacting, here.

2) 3 wipe away are also too much to my taste. I really like echoing truth as a mean to handle tokens or to gain massive tempo advantage against quadlazzered decks (and in Legacy they are plenty)

3) 3 rebuild is too much. I could see a split between 1 Hurkyl's recall / 1 Rebuild. Chalice @ 2 is not likely to happen a lot of time and I did win several games because of Hurkyl's CMC where I'd have lost with Rebuild otherwise. The cycling option does not matter that much because when you are siding Rebuild in, you are not likely going to use the cycling ability but you will rather keep it in hand "just in case". I know it can be used (cycle) during the combo turn but until now the case where not being able to cycle a hurkyl's recall never shows up.

4) Snapback ? Really ?

Here is my current sideboard:

1 Flusterstorm
1 Brain Freeze
1 Hurkyl's recall
2 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Wipe away
1 BSZ
1 MBT
1 Swan Song
3 Ravenous Trap
1 FOW

Main deck is yours -1 BSZ +1 CW.

[Ralf]

Do you find that (good) people, on your combo turn, target your high tides or resets or card draw more often with their counterspells? (Or just try to delay you by stopping development spells?) (It's hard for me to get "good" testing right now :/ But I'll have this deck in paper soon to play more with it.)

"Tide" is virtually card disadvantage. Usually, I would NEVER counter a tide.
Depending on the game state, I would either go for the "untapper" (Reset) or for the draw engine (meditate/DTT).

Now, there is the exception where:
1) You have perfect information on opponent's hand
2) and you have seen that your opponent can kill you with a lethal BF if you let the tide resolve.

That's the only case where I would counter a tide (buying you "X" several turns, potentially).

And as it is a pretty unlikely scenario (perfect info + lethal in hand), I would never counter a tide (WHTBD).

[Seraphus]

1) Annul is too narrow to my taste. And the only thing you are hitting relevantly is "enchantment" because you have already access to 3 Rebuild. Unless you want to lower your mana curve to better answer stompy decks (& side effect for CB). Have you been annoyed by anything, lately ? (Eidolon, SoL?). I think you are over reacting, here.

2) 3 wipe away are also too much to my taste. I really like echoing truth as a mean to handle tokens or to gain massive tempo advantage against quadlazzered decks (and in Legacy they are plenty)

3) 3 rebuild is too much. I could see a split between 1 Hurkyl's recall / 1 Rebuild. Chalice @ 2 is not likely to happen a lot of time and I did win several games because of Hurkyl's CMC where I'd have lost with Rebuild otherwise. The cycling option does not matter that much because when you are siding Rebuild in, you are not likely going to use the cycling ability but you will rather keep it in hand "just in case". I know it can be used (cycle) during the combo turn but until now the case where not being able to cycle a hurkyl's recall never shows up.

4) Snapback ? Really ?

Here is my current sideboard:

1 Flusterstorm
1 Brain Freeze
1 Hurkyl's recall
2 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Wipe away
1 BSZ
1 MBT
1 Swan Song
3 Ravenous Trap
1 FOW

Main deck is yours -1 BSZ +1 CW.

1) it's exactly that and that the fact that sphere of resistance kinda hurts, rip kinda don't let me use 4 cards, Storm LED and Petals can be countered easily... + I don't like to give a clock to my op (swan song)

2) a well played D&T deck can be a problem, this solves everything. Besides there are other prison decks like a spot on Wipe on chokes and stuff or on eilodion (or wtv the red creature that is a pyro pillar is)...

3) I might stuck a Recall to replace 1 rebuild

4) I honestly never used E.truth, so atm I am using it and it's been good. And if the field is that much flooded with tokens I guess It's time to make the kill...

[Smash10101]

Been lurking for a while, figured I'd finally pop in and share my list. I've been testing Notion Thief in the side and wanted to hear opinions on that/has it been tried before?

Main Deck
7 Fetch
1 Underground Sea
10 Island

4 High Tide
4 Reset
1 Turnabout

4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
3 Impulse

4 Dig Through Time
3 Meditate

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Snap

3 Cunning Wish
1 Brain Freeze

2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Remand

Side Board
1 Notion Thief
1 Flusterstorm
1 Brain Freeze
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Stifle
1 Pact of Negation
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Rebuild
1 ??????

I should note that while I've played a variety of matchups, the vast majority of my games with this list are vs Omnitell, which I often win with the Snapcaster beats. I liked Feline's Clique plan, but I don't have any, so I decided to try Notion Thief in that slot, though it does make me vulnerable to Wastelands, which isn't an issue in my tiny little meta, but could be if I actually took this to an event.

[Seraphus]

Been lurking for a while, figured I'd finally pop in and share my list. I've been testing Notion Thief in the side and wanted to hear opinions on that/has it been tried before?

Main Deck
7 Fetch
1 Underground Sea
10 Island

4 High Tide
4 Reset
1 Turnabout

4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
3 Impulse

4 Dig Through Time
3 Meditate

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Snap

3 Cunning Wish
1 Brain Freeze

2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Remand

Side Board
1 Notion Thief
1 Flusterstorm
1 Brain Freeze
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Stifle
1 Pact of Negation
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Rebuild
1 ??????

I should note that while I've played a variety of matchups, the vast majority of my games with this list are vs Omnitell, which I often win with the Snapcaster beats. I liked Feline's Clique plan, but I don't have any, so I decided to try Notion Thief in that slot, though it does make me vulnerable to Wastelands, which isn't an issue in my tiny little meta, but could be if I actually took this to an event.
In which of the 184 pages of discussion on this thread did you think that we didnt try something smilar??

[Smash10101]

In which of the 184 pages of discussion on this thread did you think that we didnt try something smilar??

I was guessing one of the ones I haven't read. I'm not reading planning on reading the entire thread, and also metagames change. Treasure Cruise isn't something we can play in Solidarity, but Notion Thief is :)

[Seraphus]

I was guessing one of the ones I haven't read. I'm not reading planning on reading the entire thread, and also metagames change. Treasure Cruise isn't something we can play in Solidarity, but Notion Thief is :)

Sorry to disappointing you but no it's not...

[Il_fabious]

???
Mindbreak trap reads "If an opponent cast three or more spells this turn, you may pay {0} rather than pay Mindbreak Trap's mana cost. Exile any number of target spells."

I don't see PoN helping you trigger the traps.



PoN "eat" an opponent's counter without costing mana or added cards like fow. If you play against a tempo deck, the 2nd and 3rd game they bring in ReBs and/or flusterstorm and have a big number of permission spells. If, when you go off, you are short on lands, they'll counter your untapper, if you are ok with lands, then they'll go for the business spell (meditate/DTT). So, if you start your spell chain in response of a random opponent's spell, you have PoN for their first counter and this helps you to "enable" the trap if they have the second one or more. You can do the same with any combo piece, ofc, but it will cost you mana. It depends on the situation.
Years ago, when there wasn't PoN, we used to play 1-2 copy of "dispel" for this purpose.
It's written somewhere in the thread. I think also Seraphus played something like this in the past but maybe I'm wrong.

[Asthereal]

PoN "eat" an opponent's counter without costing mana or added cards like fow. If you play against a tempo deck, the 2nd and 3rd game they bring in ReBs and/or flusterstorm and have a big number of permission spells. If, when you go off, you are short on lands, they'll counter your untapper, if you are ok with lands, then they'll go for the business spell (meditate/DTT). So, if you start your spell chain in response of a random opponent's spell, you have PoN for their first counter and this helps you to "enable" the trap if they have the second one or more. You can do the same with any combo piece, ofc, but it will cost you mana. It depends on the situation.
Years ago, when there wasn't PoN, we used to play 1-2 copy of "dispel" for this purpose.
It's written somewhere in the thread. I think also Seraphus played something like this in the past but maybe I'm wrong.
Mindbreak Trap was released more recently than Pact of Negation.
Not to mention the fact that Dispel is the newest of them all.
Maybe you are trying to say something else but formulated it rather clumsily?

[Ralf]

PoN "eat" an opponent's counter without costing mana or added cards like fow. If you play against a tempo deck, the 2nd and 3rd game they bring in ReBs and/or flusterstorm and have a big number of permission spells. If, when you go off, you are short on lands, they'll counter your untapper, if you are ok with lands, then they'll go for the business spell (meditate/DTT). So, if you start your spell chain in response of a random opponent's spell, you have PoN for their first counter and this helps you to "enable" the trap if they have the second one or more. You can do the same with any combo piece, ofc, but it will cost you mana. It depends on the situation.
Years ago, when there wasn't PoN, we used to play 1-2 copy of "dispel" for this purpose.
It's written somewhere in the thread. I think also Seraphus played something like this in the past but maybe I'm wrong.

Take some time and read my last tournament report. :cool:

[Pelikanudo]

@Feline mainly and to whom may interest:

Intro:
Well, I am a Storm player and of course long time ago in the David Gearhearth Era I played Solidarity wrecking the rest of decks... it was among all Storm Decks my favourite one (I played DDFT, TES, ANT ,TNT....), then the meta changed and was almost impossible to win with that Deck... BUT suddently I saw you - Feline doing very well in a tournament so thanks a lot - I sometimes looked at the post in this thread but the only improvement was the Snaps Added which seemed to me not very relevant, and suddently Dig Through Time appeared, I just forgot Solidarity existed and didn't notice this card was a GREAT improvement to the deck.

Trying to improve the Deck:
Well, A thing I love is reaching my own conclusions about a deck and noticing somebody by there reach also the same conclusions,
At first glance, and surprinsingly I'm 99% agree on the Base, the only thing I dislike is having 19 Lands and not 4th FoW so when testing this was the only change I made to the base.
The Original List had this numbers and sure sometimes I needed to Impulse for Land but this is something I can afford. In terms of Numbers the unique difference with D.G. List is that you don't play remand - if you consider it as a +0.5 or +0.X cantrip, because if the opponent doesn't play spells you are in the exact same position as your Build but -1Land.

One thing I noticed was the super power of Snaps and DTT.
Well Sure I prefer Opt versus Peek but Opt is not a super cantrip so my thought process was: well what happens if I use a cantrip to maximize both DTT and Snaps?
It would be wonderfull if you could play DTT on 3rd turn right?
Therefore a Testing Scenario which is giving me good results on the paper is substituing 4 Opt and include 4 Mental Note (or T.Scour)

- M.Note is good for scenarios in which you Meditate, then B.S. and M.Note to put the top 2 shitty cards in G.Y.
- on 3rd turn if you play a fetch and a B.S OR Impulse AND a M.N. you will be able to play DTT! sounds great
- it can be even an upside to put a Tide in the G.Y. as you can next Snap to Tide and then Reset! as you advance deeper with M.N than with Opt
- it also has synergy with Snaps as mentioned.

Well for me it is clear and the next step could be maybe - better 4DTT and 3 Meditate in base then?

Related to the Side, I'm not a fan of diluting the strategy by adding Vendilions, I would prefer to add more PoN and Swan Songs and Wipe Away maybe, but I'm not either the person to argue the opposite...

Questions:
Could you tell me the Side strategy you have vs the Diff decks in the meta or a link to this? and opinions about this proposal?

Thanks for your Build Feline!
Keep Storming!

[feline]

Well for now it seems there's 3 ways I could go about it.

Doing the Mental Note / Thought Scour setup
The Remand / Brain Freeze setup
The Snapcaster Mage / Snap setup.

All I know is I don't even like Peek because it doesn't dig, just draws a card basically, where as with Opt at least I'm scrying for 1 first. So I never went the Thought Scour / Mental Note route.

I tried Remand / No Snap/Snapcaster Mage tricks but after enough time I switched to Snapcaster Mage because it helped me resolve more High Tides faster. As well as just being able to flashback anything in the Graveyard.

I will likely try a few more runs with this deck at the Premier IQ's since that's the thing now, as I still want to attain the goal of making a top 16+ finish with Reset High Tide at some large scale event if I can.

As far as what I was doing where with sideboarding, I'd usually bring in Vendilion Clique against most strategies, just about all of them really. (I wouldn't against Belcher/All Spells however, lol, it's just too darned slow) Vendilion Clique was for blocking hate bears, potentially buying lots of time if you blocked their only creature (Like a flipped Delver) then they had to draw into another threat. I'd cut Flusterstorms for them against some match ups where the card was weaker. Other times I'd cut the Snaps, unless they had White which meant potential hatebears (Meddling Mage / Thalia / Gaddock Teeg etc.) But still bring in Vendilion Clique. I'd also cut 1 Wish if I was bringing in any of the kill condition to the maindeck from the sideboard.

I am a lot less experienced with this deck however, so don't take what I'm saying as concrete as I'm not even 100% on everything. Until I feel comfortable enough with a specific setup I keep all options open. Right now my "Solidarity Deck" is actually over 100 cards. Even though I'm not using them I still have stuff in a "more than the 75 pile" like the Remands I'm not using, the 4th Snapcaster Mage, even Counterspell & Peek even though I'm not leaning toward running either of those right now.

[Seraphus]

75 pages behind:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12086-Deck-Solidarity&p=590209&viewfull=1#post590209

please (no disrespect to you feline) but because an American does something with the deck now it's fashionable to play solidarity?!


I am never right, but I'm pretty sure I am not wrong many times...

11 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
2 Opt
2 Peek
2 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
2 Impulse ---------------------------------------------------- I WAS WRONG WE NEED THEM ------------------------------------------------------
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Rebuild
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Annul

Wanna me to do a breackdown of the list?

[Kanti]

Gotta say Seraphus I don't know what the hell you are talking about. I almost never do, your posts are incomprehensible. Doesn't help much when you post a list literally every 3 posts. Anyhow...

On the land count, I've always felt better with 19. The deck did not have 19 in it's inception, and people have tested with even less lands (I remember Ben toying around with cutting the 18th land for a Snap). I don't think it was a good idea then, and I don't think it's a good idea now. If Ponder and Preordain were instants then hell yeah, but they aren't and our cantrips are weak. I've also developed some love for Peek after playing with G. Probe in other storm decks, and I don't feel comfortable running any less than 4 Opts if I'm at 18 lands. The land counts is actually one of the things that kept me from playing Peek, but after reading over arguements, and playing with TES a lot, I decided for myself that Peek is indeed the real deal. The fewer lands, the better off you are going to be when your forced to combo off early, as you will have dead draws. I feel like playing to Solidarity's strengths is a better option though, and rather focus on making a land-drop every single turn without breaking a sweat.

Feline, made a post a little ago asking why you cut Brain Freeze for Flusterstorm, besides the obvious having a reactive counterspell (that is abusable with Snapcaster) vs having a kill spell. Brain Freeze is so much more than a kill spell in the deck. Be cool to further the discussion and talk about the benefits of running some main-deck Brain Freezes. Maybe go back and read it, yeah? Kinda pointless asking others this question since they would probably post yout list for reference.

I'll start it off; synergy with Brainstorm, turns on Dig through Time, can be used to play around CB-Top, saves sideboard space, and most importantly allows you win small rather than chain draw spell after draw spell. I feel that once you are at the point of going Wish>Freeze, or Wish>Snapcaster>Freeze>Snapcaster trigger target Freeze>Freeze you have enough mana and/or storm to just Stroke somebody out. Running some Freezes in the main-decks allow you to win small, and though anything is possible with this deck I feel like having smaller spell chains is a benefit in any storm deck, especially when dealing with assholes who cast boatloads of disruption.

Pelikundo, I feel that Thought Scour is good, but not better than Opt or Peek. Opt has scry 1, in a world of crap instant speed cantrips, which isn't very impressive but it is something. Peek lets you well, peek, and in recent years I'm pretty sure all of Legacy, especially combo players, have noted just how powerful that effect is. Gitaxian Probe isn't so popular because it's a Street Wraith that adds 1 storm. It's popular because it gives you vital information, allowing combo decks to establish their role in match-ups. I'll add that this effect is especially good in this deck, barring an active top Top, knowing what your opponent has means knowing in what order to cast your spells.

If you have any doubts on Opt, I get it. Somebody posted some numbers they crunched displaying the difference between Opt and other cantrips. Besides being neat, it offers hard evidence that Opt does indeed dig "more". I remember Ben hated Opt for as long as I remember, and was very, very outspoken against it, and for a long time refused to acknoledge it conceivably being a better card than Peek or VoB. For someone who doesn't have a numbers background it was hard putting my experience into some sort of forumula that could make sense, but thankfully someone came along and did it for me. What I'm trying to say is that I'm sure you don't want someone to tell you "Run Opt, it digs better. I've played this deck for XX amount of time, trust me" but you want some hard numbers showing you the difference between card A and card B. Someone has crunched the numbres though, and it's there for all of us to read. If you can't find it ask me and I'll get off my bum and fish the post out. Pretty sure the person who posted it was named TheRock

[Seraphus]

"Feline, made a post a little ago asking why you cut Brain Freeze for Flusterstorm, besides the obvious having a reactive counterspell (that is abusable with Snapcaster) vs having a kill spell. Brain Freeze is so much more than a kill spell in the deck. Be cool to further the discussion and talk about the benefits of running some main-deck Brain Freezes. Maybe go back and read it, yeah? Kinda pointless asking others this question since they would probably post yout list for reference."

1- Feline didn't do anything asking me whatsoever...
2- the discussion was about raising the fucking number of Brain freezes (which I was against it and I gave my reasons - someone said that vs cb it was a good idea because of a process that some years ago I mention here "trigger cleansing" was what I called it, which is useless with Flusterstorm on the other side - so now maybe you go back and read it; oh no wait I will make a brief explanation: Brain Freeze is a card that no longer brings cantrip or cardadvantage (no FoI), BF doesn't have any purpose to set the combo, to protect it or to make it work - use BF to get ride off BS cards? LOL after the extripate, surgical debate using a BF for nothing sounds good. Using it for enhance DTT? Why do you need to enhance a card that is per si already super powerful? (Still Following me?! Or I do keep saying something " incomprehensible"? Wanna me to draw it?)
As for your so called small chain it's all very cool except when you have an actual opponent interacting with you...

I challenge you to read the last 100 pages of the thread and point out who have been developing this deck and dedicating more time to it than me?!

[Kanti]

Still lost man. I don't really get what point one or two are adressing. Just a bunch of babble and curse words. Didn't mean to cause such offense, as I know from lurking this thread for so many years that you've been told before by Sourcers and moderators alike to use a spell check and some better grammar as it is straining to make sense of your words. Thought I'd reiterate the sentiment.

On that list bit of point b, Brain Freeze still has some functionality outside of being the kill card, unlike Tendrils of Agony. Yeah, no BF>FoI, but this deck hasn't mained FoI for the good part of the last 5 years, and still ran Brain Freeze main. I would make the arguement that we all could have been running Fluster>Freeze all along when lists got teched and started rocking 4 Snapcasters main. But for some reason (not a magical, mystical one but a logical one, I hope) decided to keep jamming Brain Freeze in the main. Why? Because the deck can win small. Because there are opponents interacting with us that won't let us go off into some ridiculous spell chain where I'm sitting on triple tide and Stroking someone for 150 cards. Sometimes it's just Freeze, Freeze, pass the turn, die on your draw step. In a way you give that away by not maining Brain Freeze. Anyhow, I've repeated myself too many times. I'm off to do some testing.

And, I've never run into a Miracles deck main-decking Flusterstorm. And if they are siding it they still have to draw it, and hold onto it until the penultimate Brain Freeze. The whole situation is so dependant on the game state that it isn't worth speculating it much, but saying you can't use Brain Freeze to go around CB-Top anymore because of Flusterstorm is hyperbole.

ps; go stretch your epeen elsewhere. I just wanna talk about Solidarity. I can give a crap what your Source handle is, or post number is.

[Dark Ritual]

Ignore Seraphus. He's not even running 4 impulse and 4 opt yet he runs 3 repeal maindeck. All repeal does is react to what the opponent does or bounce snapcaster to replay/spend all the mana's to flashback another spell with snapcaster. It is hideous in this strategy. 17 land? Less than 4 opt? How is that working out for you in terms of hitting land drops? Missing land drops with repeal in hand sounds as appealing as death by firing squad. You run less than 4 dig through time. All the 'development' you've done on the deck means close to nothing as dig through time turned this archetype on its head/changed how you can build the deck drastically. Lists are flying everywhere yet I'd bet a good amount of money that we haven't found the optimal list yet. What I'm sure of after playing with dig through time is that it is an auto 4 of in the 75 because it IS the best draw spell in the deck and not meditate. Meditate gets more raw cards yet one of them is virtually guaranteed to be a land/brick and the other cards aren't guaranteed to do anything especially in your list where you'll draw some pile of cards like repeal, land, force, and peek. Tell me how confident you are in those 4. Dig looks 3 cards deeper, bottoms the chaff, and gets you the 2 best cards in your top 7 assuming you are a competent pilot who takes the correct line. Oh and it costs 1 mana less and some cards lying around in your bin. As setup cards meditate is vastly inferior as well since timewalking yourself is something you don't want to willingly do in legacy or any format typically and quite often makes you discard anyways/it isn't a draw 4 it's a draw 3, 2, or 1. He still stands by the 6 fetchland ideology as well, which is quite outdated with dig in the picture and very little stifles running around if any/not getting punished that way. The chances of you needing more than 8 land in play with solidarity are slim as any solidarity player worth his salt with 8+ lands in play should probably win the game.

Miracles never maindecks flusterstorm unless you're talking about some localized list that someone runs in a VERY combo heavy meta/sure you can maindeck flusterstorm. Look at Schoneggers and Lossetts builds' of miracles. No maindeck flusterstorms and those are the lists that have put up results. You playtest against what you expect to run into in a tournament setting, not some crazy storm hating miracles deck that is inbred due to your legacy gauntlet testing.

Posting a list every 3 posts isn't helping anyone. If you're changing your list that often I seriously doubt you're getting in enough testing with the previous list posted unless you're actually just playtesting this deck 40+ hours a week/I have no idea what's wrong with you or the person you're playtesting with as playtesting that much for legacy is not remotely worth most peoples' time and playing solidarity that many hours a week just makes you sound like a masochist. Unless you're actually just developing trash/oh my god this list sucks so let's make a new list and toss the old one into the incinerator.

I don't play peek at all. It is training wheels in this deck. There's a huge difference between peek and probe other than the sorcery/instant speed difference of course. One costs zero mana and is one of the most broken cards they've printed in the past 10 years. The other costs a mana and has not seen any widespread success since psychatog ruled centerstage and I can't quite recall if it even saw widespread success then. The card is garbage in terms of looking for lands and in terms of how much countermagic the opponent has if they know what to counter/card draw like meditate/dig instead of mana and cantrips it all comes down to how much countermagic you have versus what they have. If they really have more countermagic than you well tough luck or try to bait. I've never really wanted to see the hand of my opponents out of this deck unless I could see it while making mulligan decisions. If we have 2 counterspells that should likely push through what they have as a general rule. Sometimes 1 is enough too. This deck has a lot of redundancy though/even if your opponent plays their countermagic for full effect/counters, say, meditate we can still easily win that turn depending on the strength of our hand. There are much better cards we can run than peek. I run 18 land alongside 4 opt, 4 brainstorm, and 4 impulse to find lands/spells if I have enough lands. I absolutely adore gitaxian probe in ANT and such but those decks play quite different from solidarity in my experience because they are fundamentally faster and far more all in than solidarity is unless you're running pact of negation/I have no clue how you can cut down below 4 forces when your opponent can just play something you want to force quite badly but instead you're holding unplayable pact that is purely a combo card and not the greatest at that. There are things you want to force before the combo turn ranging from skillforge mystic to hymn to treasure cruise. Pact any of those and you die. Force them and you get more time to play with. This deck wants more time usually strange I know but you also want to be able to goldfish a turn 4 win with protection. Force fulfills that role admirably. You can't say it's bad in multiples as force pitching force is a line. Force fuels dig through time. Force counters everything except storm spells and uncounterable spells but I'm not sure what uncounterable spells pertain to this deck and its plan short of abrupt decay on a snapcaster mage that is targeted by snap/repeal if you want to run that nonsense.

Lastly, cunning wish is uncuttable. I have grown to love the card more and more in playing this deck. Anything less than 3 is very, very wrong as it grants you insane flexibility. 3 mana split card that is either card draw, countermagic, or mana/everything the deck wants in one 3 mana card. It's batshit crazy not to run it. If you run anything else over it you'll draw the card you replaced it with and think "man I wish this wasn't a flusterstorm I really wanted a meditate there." It is the closest we're getting to demonic tutor in this deck or merchant scroll for that matter and merchant scroll is one of the sickest cards in spiral tide that enables the deck to even exist as without it I'd like spiral tide infinitely less.

Impulse is one of the best cards in this deck. It pains me whenever someone runs less than 4 since it is the ideal setup card and combo card at the 2cc slot. Find land, check. Great to get out of brainstorm lock during combo, check. Digs more than every card in the deck except dig through time, check. Every time I resolve impulse I like it a lot. It's like a 2 mana preordain that bottoms 3 and puts 1 in your hand. At 1 mana it would be broken beyond belief. At 2 mana it's still quite a deal in terms of card selection at that cost. Our cantrip quality is low at the 1 drop slot outside brainstorm.

Have to go but I'll post later on.

[Pelikanudo]

@Kanti:
Well, I agree that Opt digs deeper than Peek and Mental Note. (In the D.G Era I played 4 Opt instead of shitty Peek)
However M.N has advantages over Opt and Peek and the one I love most is the ability to cast a 3rd turn DTT, there is no other way you can do this in Solidarity.
Also M.N has other advantages over these 2 cards as explained before:
- IF you have SnapCaster in hand you can dig virtually deeper than Peek Or Opt, the reason is that you can next play one of the cards in G.Y. with Snapcaster
- With B.S. in hand you can also dig deeper as you put the top 2 cards in G.Y. drawing the unknown 3rd card

@Feline:
I'll play a local tomorrow with your build but:
-4 Opt -1 Meditate -1Land = +4 M.Note, +4th DTT, +4th FoW, leaving the 4th Meditate in Side

I'm so happy to play again Solidarity!!!

as mentioned in the Side there will be more PoN and Swang Song and Looking for options vs HateBears I saw the following card: Polymorphist's Jest, I'll see how this work but not conviced... anyone tested this?

I'll expose later how the tournament went!

@Seraphus:
Calm down please it's chrismast and we are all in the same Storm board!

[JDK]

@Dark Ritual
I will ask you again:

Did you even test this in the current meta or is this for your slowish FNM-meta only?

You throw around your list like it's the freaking Ten Commandments and yet I cannot see how it's any better against the URx meta than any other list in here. Or even as good.

Opt & Peek
Opt is obviously the better choice in terms of "digging". It gives you selection, even though just a little bit. Peek just replaces itself. The value of peek is not that you see the opponent's counters and counter accordingly, because it is almost always clear how to stack your counters. Peek allows you to see how much time you have to build your resources. It allows you to see if SCM+Snap is save. It allows you to see what to discard after e.g. a Meditate. It allows you to see if you have to go for it or if you can still search for lands or spells. Sure you can always play as if you would face the worst or just go for it, but you increase your percentages if you actually know.
With Dig Through Time the selection during combo and the midgame has become much better, but it still needs setup and doesn't work as setup very well itself - at least not early or against GY-hate. Solidarity was always in need of CMC1 spells to efficiently use resources like mana and time. With DTT and the rise of URx even more so. That's why I think (based on experience and theory) 3+ Opt are the way to go, with 4 CMC1 draw-spells being the absolute minimum I'd consider with 2+ DTT.

Cunning Wish
I rarely...ummm...wish I had a Wish instead of any other card and especially against fast decks you don't want a card that works turn 3+ only. Another disadvantage of Wish is that it doesn't directly fuel your DTT and SCM. Even against Emrakul.dec I was always fine playing 1 BF & 1 CW in my maindeck. It's versatile, yes. It is also clumsy and slow.

DTT
4? In such a slow build? Even a DRS would significantly slow you down or throw you off. Not to mention the fast clocks like Delver.

countering SFM
I feel like countering SFM is something you should rarely do (given you are playing bounce-spells - which you don't MD, for whatever reason). Why? Because SFM is not that fast. Pre-board most people just have access to BSkull and Jitte. Most likely your opponent will fetch BSkull and you have enough time to set up and combo off. If you want or need to, you can just bounce the token or equipped creature and get at least another turn. This is also true for postboard Sword of Feast and Famine.

[Valtrix]

Well, I agree that Opt digs deeper than Peek and Mental Note. (In the D.G Era I played 4 Opt instead of shitty Peek)
However M.N has advantages over Opt and Peek and the one I love most is the ability to cast a 3rd turn DTT, there is no other way you can do this in Solidarity.

That's not true. 3 fetchlands + 2 spells cast by turn three lets you cast a dig through time by paying 3 and delving 5. This is, in my opinion, one of the reasons one should run a large number of fetchlands. Turn 3 dig is the best way to set up a turn 4 combo if you can manage it.


I absolutely adore gitaxian probe in ANT and such but those decks play quite different from solidarity in my experience because they are fundamentally faster and far more all in than solidarity is unless you're running pact of negation/I have no clue how you can cut down below 4 forces when your opponent can just play something you want to force quite badly but instead you're holding unplayable pact that is purely a combo card and not the greatest at that. There are things you want to force before the combo turn ranging from skillforge mystic to hymn to treasure cruise. Pact any of those and you die. Force them and you get more time to play with. This deck wants more time usually strange I know but you also want to be able to goldfish a turn 4 win with protection. Force fulfills that role admirably. You can't say it's bad in multiples as force pitching force is a line. Force fuels dig through time. Force counters everything except storm spells and uncounterable spells but I'm not sure what uncounterable spells pertain to this deck and its plan short of abrupt decay on a snapcaster mage that is targeted by snap/repeal if you want to run that nonsense.

There is at least one reasonable argument for not running 4 force of will. Namely that if you rely primarily for force as your protection, it becomes harder to combo through multiple counterspells your opponent has. Losing 4 cards for 2 counterspells is sometimes a rough proposition, which is why I like to diversify my counters just a little bit. (Yes, of course you do pitch one force to the other when you can't afford to use both. However, if you drew force + pact or force + swan song for example you could pitch some other card instead and then cast the song/pact for a second counterspell.) I do run 4 force in my 75 though, because there are plenty of times when you really do need it, but currently I run 3 main/1 SB to help make it less pressure on my hand to combo off with multiple protection. I do not believe that it's a clear choice at the moment to run all 4 forces in the main. I wouldn't fault anybody for running all 4 main. As you say though, I think 2 is too low however.

[benthetenor]

I always thought that Peek was "training wheels". This was back when I was young and arrogant. Then I saw Finkel running Peek in a Standard deck the last time it was Standard legal. The full four, just because it was in the format. He was the only one doing it. He was winning.

Was he winning because of Peek, or was he winning because he is Jon Finkel? Tough to say. He's still in the conversation for the best player of all time, and he was at his peak back when Urza's Saga was in Standard. But then I always ask the question: if the best player in the world is doing something that no one else is doing, is it more likely that he's wrong or that we are wrong? I don't know that I know the answer to that, or that anyone can know. I do know that it made me a lot less arrogant about Peek. If the best player in the world doesn't think it's "training wheels" (or doesn't care), then why should I?

Gitaxian Probe isn't powerful because it's free. It's powerful because it replaces itself and it breaks one of the fundamental rules of the game: you get to know what is in your opponent's hand, and more importantly, they do not get to know what is in yours. It makes outplaying your opponent much, much easier. It being free is a bonus (and a large one), but also in a deck that is naturally slower I'd rather pay the mana and not the life (since the mana is going to be a less scarce resource throughout the game) and have the flexibility that being an instant affords it. I'd go so far as to say that Peek costing mana all the time (rather than just some of the time with Gitaxian Probe) does not make it significantly worse to the point that it's probably wrong that some decks aren't playing Peek right now, or that the optimal number of "Gitaxian Probe" effects might make it so that a 4 Gitaxian Probe, 1-2 Peek deck could be correct. The fact that not everyone is doing it increases the information-disparity bonus gained from Peek.

I've always felt that the one-mana non-Brainstorm cantrip slot was a compromise. When the deck was (relatively) inconsistent, before Snapcaster Mage and Dig Through Time were printed, Opt was much more of a necessity because it was the card that best added stability to the deck, though even in those days it wasn't uncommon to see a 2/2 split between Peek and Opt. With the printing of those two cards, that slot needs to cheat towards consistency much, much less, which affords the opportunity to run Peek without losing overall consistency in the deck. With Dig Through Time in the deck, I'm also not convinced it's incorrect to simply run a full set of both (and maybe more one-mana cantrips) to ensure you're always casting DTT early and often, and allowing the power of DTT to make up for the lack of consistency you get from not running Impulse or whatever it is that you're cutting from those slots. Which is crazy.

I do believe that we are still far from the optimal build, as most of what I'm seeing is people just jamming Dig Through Time into old shells and I believe that Dig Through Time fundamentally alters how the deck functions. I think it will look like a slow deck (because there are no good ways to break the fundamental one land a turn rule), and I think it will have a maximum number of Dig Through Time with as many Snapcaster Mages as usable because they are the best cards we have been given for the deck since Reset and High Tide and Brainstorm. It will likely cut down on many of the other options we've had in the past to increase consistency (Impulse, Cunning Wish, Opt) because it's just not as necessary, but I think it would be a mistake to cut all of them because they are still strong cards. I also feel that it will include Brain Freeze in the main deck because doing so only makes the deck better. I also feel that having more than five counterspells is probably unnecessary, and I personally am hesitant to play more than four. These are all my opinions. I have no hard evidence to back any of them up and I could be wrong. But they are based on what I know about the deck after years of playing with it and years of trying out every blue instant ever printed in this deck specifically.

[astormbrewing]

I hope I can soon begin to contribute more than just theory to this thread. I received the final two Force of Wills I needed to complete the deck, and my first event will be a Legacy FNM on 1/2 (and hopefully again on 1/9). There is a SCG event nearby at the end of January, and I will be playing in the Premiere IQ there. After events, I will report back with my notes and observations with the deck.

For reference, here is the list I am working with currently (will tweak with hands-on experience):

1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
3 Dig Through Time
2 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Opt
1 Pact of Negation
1 Repeal
4 Reset
2 Snap
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Turnabout

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
10 Island

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Dig Through Time
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pact of Negation
1 Polymorphist's Jest
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Snap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away

I am happy to hear any feedback, any questions about my list, and anything anyone thinks I should look for with regards to how my list plays.

[Parcher]

I hope I can soon begin to contribute more than just theory to this thread. I received the final two Force of Wills I needed to complete the deck, and my first event will be a Legacy FNM on 1/2 (and hopefully again on 1/9). There is a SCG event nearby at the end of January, and I will be playing in the Premiere IQ there. After events, I will report back with my notes and observations with the deck.

For reference, here is the list I am working with currently (will tweak with hands-on experience):

1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
3 Dig Through Time
2 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Opt
1 Pact of Negation
1 Repeal
4 Reset
2 Snap
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Turnabout

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
10 Island

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Dig Through Time
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pact of Negation
1 Polymorphist's Jest
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Snap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away

I am happy to hear any feedback, any questions about my list, and anything anyone thinks I should look for with regards to how my list plays.

List seems good. I would seriously consider changing the SB Dig to the 4th Meditate for two reasons. You don't want your primary Wish-able draw spell to be affected by GY hate. It's just too easily visible a choke point if you Wish for Dig, and they have a way to affect your GY. Also, with the amount of Pacts you run, resolving a Meditate means that against any non-Emrakul deck, Freeze is lethal, and you don't have to worry about paying, or Zenithing them out. So you always want to be sure you have access to one.

[astormbrewing]

List seems good. I would seriously consider changing the SB Dig to the 4th Meditate for two reasons. You don't want your primary Wish-able draw spell to be affected by GY hate. It's just too easily visible a choke point if you Wish for Dig, and they have a way to affect your GY. Also, with the amount of Pacts you run, resolving a Meditate means that against any non-Emrakul deck, Freeze is lethal, and you don't have to worry about paying, or Zenithing them out. So you always want to be sure you have access to one.

I've been back and forth of this, and it is something I will seriously consider before the 2nd.

[Parcher]

Also, I would want BEBs. Not for REBs, I think your Pacts are better for that. But for Red speed creatures, and Burn. You can't effectively Pact a Swiftspear, or Eidolon. And saving any damage against Burn The Deck is relevant.

[Dark Ritual]

@Dark Ritual
I will ask you again:


You throw around your list like it's the freaking Ten Commandments and yet I cannot see how it's any better against the URx meta than any other list in here. Or even as good.

Opt & Peek
Opt is obviously the better choice in terms of "digging". It gives you selection, even though just a little bit. Peek just replaces itself. The value of peek is not that you see the opponent's counters and counter accordingly, because it is almost always clear how to stack your counters. Peek allows you to see how much time you have to build your resources. It allows you to see if SCM+Snap is save. It allows you to see what to discard after e.g. a Meditate. It allows you to see if you have to go for it or if you can still search for lands or spells. Sure you can always play as if you would face the worst or just go for it, but you increase your percentages if you actually know.
With Dig Through Time the selection during combo and the midgame has become much better, but it still needs setup and doesn't work as setup very well itself - at least not early or against GY-hate. Solidarity was always in need of CMC1 spells to efficiently use resources like mana and time. With DTT and the rise of URx even more so. That's why I think (based on experience and theory) 3+ Opt are the way to go, with 4 CMC1 draw-spells being the absolute minimum I'd consider with 2+ DTT.

Cunning Wish
I rarely...ummm...wish I had a Wish instead of any other card and especially against fast decks you don't want a card that works turn 3+ only. Another disadvantage of Wish is that it doesn't directly fuel your DTT and SCM. Even against Emrakul.dec I was always fine playing 1 BF & 1 CW in my maindeck. It's versatile, yes. It is also clumsy and slow.

DTT
4? In such a slow build? Even a DRS would significantly slow you down or throw you off. Not to mention the fast clocks like Delver.

countering SFM
I feel like countering SFM is something you should rarely do (given you are playing bounce-spells - which you don't MD, for whatever reason). Why? Because SFM is not that fast. Pre-board most people just have access to BSkull and Jitte. Most likely your opponent will fetch BSkull and you have enough time to set up and combo off. If you want or need to, you can just bounce the token or equipped creature and get at least another turn. This is also true for postboard Sword of Feast and Famine.
Increase your odds if you know your opponent has more countermagic than you can beat? Peek does a lot of things but that isn't one of them. Let's say they have triple force of will and triple blue card. Knowing they have that means jack shit. Knowing if you can go for it? You're playing the deck wrong on a fundamental level if you're trying to kill your opponent before they can kill you short of them having little to no cards in hand/giving them more time to draw into countermagic/hatebears/relevant stuff. Peek helps none of that. Peek is pure training wheels. Finkel played it in standard wow so revolutionary. It *really* doesn't matter what Finkel plays or doesn't play because he has more talent than everyone in this thread combined. I'd heavily suggest that people learn to read their opponents if they think peek is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Cunning wish doesn't exile for DTT unless they counter it and they virtually always do if they can. Bad with snapcaster? Last I looked you grab an instant that you can snapcaster back unless it's ravenous trap/I haven't the faintest idea as to why you'd want to snapcaster that anyways. Slow? Maybe a little bit but 3 mana really isn't much when you're getting a tutor for anything out of the deal. The card is the greatest tool we have to fight surgical extraction as well since extracting high tide before we've resolved one is a very real way to lose the game if we have all 4 in the exile zone. The flexibility it offers is unparalleled in this combo control deck and is completely necessary short of some revolutionary list coming about that doesn't utilize it as a 3 of or more let me know when that happens because the lists that are putting up any results run 3 cunning wish and not this 0, 1, or 2 bullshit that people seem to think is a good move deckbuilding wise.

Great DRS slows me down yet DRS is already virtually nonexistant in legacy right now. I'm not about to start jamming mental note(s) or something like that to try to combat DRS when DRS already hates on snapcaster too/if it isn't affecting dig it's countering a snapcaster trigger that we could very well need to win. DTT is the best thing to happen to this deck in forever and people still haven't figured out that delve is a busted mechanic in this thread apparently because everywhere else treasure cruise is wrecking the format with its power yet people in the mono blue combo deck thread seem to think we don't want 4 in the 75 when everything else in the deck pales in comparison powerlevel wise to DTT. Resolving a DTT is the main gameplan of this deck as once you do you're heavily favored to win even if the opponent has resolved a treasure cruise their 3 blind cards they get off cruise are heavily likely to be worse than the best 2 cards in our top 7 since we're a combo deck/the power level of our deck as a whole is significantly higher. If it wasn't why would we play this deck?

SFM was an example. You can replace SFM with delver, young pyro, or any significant clock. Sure you don't always want to counter SFM/significant clock and I wouldn't fault you if you didn't but the more time we have the stronger our chances of winning the game are just like a control deck. Giving up some cards for that is worth it if it ultimately wins us the game. Aggressively FoWing can be the correct line regardless of what you think FoW is not some last resort type of card that is cast only in dire need especially with dig in the picture to recoup the card disadvantage associated with forces pitch cost.

Yes, I have jammed my list against the URx meta. I have had success with it. Snap maindeck may be correct or it might not be hard to know. The worst part about the card is that it can turn the opponents removal on when normally swords to plowshares does nothing against us. Turnabout is guaranteed mana upon resolution whether the opponent has plow or not. For snap to be a more efficient card in mana production with tide than turnabout means that we have 3 or less lands in play/why are we trying to combo. Bouncing a dude to buy time can be great no doubt but turnabout does that exact same thing in terms of fogging an incoming army of pyromancer tokens, TNN, or multiple large threats to buy time as snapping something to buy a turn is virtually the same short of it being a batterskull germ token that snap is targeting/yay that one case. We're far more likely to care about stopping an army of elemental tokens as people play a lot of instants/sorceries against the combo deck who knew.

[JDK]

Increase your odds if you know your opponent has more countermagic than you can beat? Peek does a lot of things but that isn't one of them. Let's say they have triple force of will and triple blue card. Knowing they have that means jack shit. Knowing if you can go for it? You're playing the deck wrong on a fundamental level if you're trying to kill your opponent before they can kill you short of them having little to no cards in hand/giving them more time to draw into countermagic/hatebears/relevant stuff. Peek helps none of that. Peek is pure training wheels. Finkel played it in standard wow so revolutionary. It *really* doesn't matter what Finkel plays or doesn't play because he has more talent than everyone in this thread combined. I'd heavily suggest that people learn to read their opponents if they think peek is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
The same ignorance has been shown when people started playing Probe (not that Peek in Solidarity is new ^^). You can only cover a limited amount of possibilities and at the end of the day, knowledge weighs more than "I think" or "let's try". I don't think Peek is a crucial piece in Solidarity, but it certainly helps making the correct choices - regardless of which level you play at. If you want to tell me you always make the correct decision based on your "reading of opponents", then go ahead. I call bullshit and will fail to find the results of your superiority.


Cunning wish doesn't exile for DTT unless they counter it and they virtually always do if they can. Bad with snapcaster? Last I looked you grab an instant that you can snapcaster back unless it's ravenous trap/I haven't the faintest idea as to why you'd want to snapcaster that anyways. Slow? Maybe a little bit but 3 mana really isn't much when you're getting a tutor for anything out of the deal. The card is the greatest tool we have to fight surgical extraction as well since extracting high tide before we've resolved one is a very real way to lose the game if we have all 4 in the exile zone. The flexibility it offers is unparalleled in this combo control deck and is completely necessary short of some revolutionary list coming about that doesn't utilize it as a 3 of or more let me know when that happens because the lists that are putting up any results run 3 cunning wish and not this 0, 1, or 2 bullshit that people seem to think is a good move deckbuilding wise.
Results? Go check tcdecks.net or mtgtop8.com.

DRS is "virtually nonexistant" but you argue with Discard+Extraction? If you check the lists you will see a ton more DRS than Extractions. If you feel confident improving your opponent's cards, go ahead.


SFM was an example. You can replace SFM with delver, young pyro, or any significant clock. Sure you don't always want to counter SFM/significant clock and I wouldn't fault you if you didn't but the more time we have the stronger our chances of winning the game are just like a control deck. Giving up some cards for that is worth it if it ultimately wins us the game. Aggressively FoWing can be the correct line regardless of what you think FoW is not some last resort type of card that is cast only in dire need especially with dig in the picture to recoup the card disadvantage associated with forces pitch cost.

Yes, I have jammed my list against the URx meta. I have had success with it. Snap maindeck may be correct or it might not be hard to know. The worst part about the card is that it can turn the opponents removal on when normally swords to plowshares does nothing against us. Turnabout is guaranteed mana upon resolution whether the opponent has plow or not. For snap to be a more efficient card in mana production with tide than turnabout means that we have 3 or less lands in play/why are we trying to combo. Bouncing a dude to buy time can be great no doubt but turnabout does that exact same thing in terms of fogging an incoming army of pyromancer tokens, TNN, or multiple large threats to buy time as snapping something to buy a turn is virtually the same short of it being a batterskull germ token that snap is targeting/yay that one case. We're far more likely to care about stopping an army of elemental tokens as people play a lot of instants/sorceries against the combo deck who knew.
I am not sure you have actually played (= tournament) in the abomination of what the URx meta has made out of Legacy. Let alone having success. If you wait too long you will play against a hand full of FoWs, Flusterstorms, Pierces, REB/Pyroblast, etc. Yes, even maindeck nowadays. Often you cannot wait anyway. You regularly face lethal before you actually want to go off or even made your 4th/5th landdrop and Repeal/Snap is better to buy you time than using FoW (early on).

Look, we all know DTT is good. Hell, I would want to play 4 DTT in my maindeck too - but I don't, for good reasons. DTT needs fuel and comparing it to Treasure Cruise is pretty shortsighted. Why? Decks with Cruise have a lower curve and play Gitaxian Probe and Daze. Resources matter and free spells do too, when it comes to DTT. Another point is that they can play more fetchlands. We want landdrops, they just want 2-3. With that in mind DTT sucks as setup early on, so it produces awkward hands and isn't that good against fast MUs (unless it's during the combo). Your list doesn't cope with these issues, does it?

[benthetenor]

Increase your odds if you know your opponent has more countermagic than you can beat? Peek does a lot of things but that isn't one of them. Let's say they have triple force of will and triple blue card. Knowing they have that means jack shit. Knowing if you can go for it? You're playing the deck wrong on a fundamental level if you're trying to kill your opponent before they can kill you short of them having little to no cards in hand/giving them more time to draw into countermagic/hatebears/relevant stuff. Peek helps none of that. Peek is pure training wheels. Finkel played it in standard wow so revolutionary. It *really* doesn't matter what Finkel plays or doesn't play because he has more talent than everyone in this thread combined. I'd heavily suggest that people learn to read their opponents if they think peek is the greatest thing since sliced bread.


This is exactly what I was talking about. If a player who has more talent than everyone here combined did something that you consider "pure training wheels", that doesn't give you at least a little pause to think that maybe you're misevaluating the situation? Also, if you think that this deck is solely about waiting to go off until you have to, then you are playing the deck wrong on a fundamental level. The best time to go off is the best time to go off. Waiting until you're forced to go off is a great way to lose to an opponent who has been sculpting their hand throughout the game. It's much easier to, for instance, go off against two counterspells with four lands than four counterspells with six lands. Or to try to go off on four lands when they have only two lands untapped vs waiting until they have all of their lands untapped and you're in a position where it's win or die. In those situations, waiting until the last minute just lost you the game.

This is to say nothing of the times when it's correct to "go off" before you can actually kill them to drain their hands of counterspells, untap, make a land drop, and go off again the next turn. That's a play that's impossible if you're always waiting until the last minute.

If you have trouble understanding that, I think perhaps you need more games.

[Kanti]

Gotta say Seraphus I don't know what the hell you are talking about. I almost never do, your posts are incomprehensible. Doesn't help much when you post a list literally every 3 posts. Anyhow...

Don't see where that says you don't know anything about the deck, or that you've never made a contribution. What it does say though is that your grammar is terrible, and that you post a list every. single. post. You somehow misinterpreted that to mean something else, but hey, that's on you.

I'm also not seeing where JDK or Benthetenor made any points regarding that topic. JDK spoke about Dark Rit's list not being meta'd for the UR Delver metagame- which I agree with as with 0 Snaps, and 0 Repeals main you are going to get wrecked by UR Delver. Benthetenor spoke about Peek, and how due to the recent additions to the deck in the vein of Snapcaster Mage and Dig through Time, Solidarity has reached a level of consistency where it's better for your cantrips to have an effect, rather than add stability by filtering draws. Once again, neither of those have anything to do with my quote above, with just mentions your terrible grammar (I know you are foreign but there is a thing called spell check) and the fact that you post a list every other post, almost literally. I'm sure you're going to infer this all to be an insult again, but I'm not sure why.

On Peek, I think you gotta change your assesment Dark Ritual. Calling anything "training wheels" is dangerous from the get go. I want to know what's in my opponents hand, not deduce it. Throwing your deck against the wall is cool, but if I have the option of knowing exactly what I'm throwing my hand into, without costing me stability, well then I'll take it.

Yes this is Solidarity, yes we can go off at instant speed to everything. Yes, it's fun to go off in the pre-combat phase when our opponent is about to attack us for letahl. That's the flavor of our deck. With that said if I can kill you now, I'm going to kill you now. I'm not going to wait until the last second because "Hey, I'm Solidarity damnit. I don't function like other combo decks, I don't calculate if I have to go off now, I can just go off in response to what they do!". No thank you. If I see an opening, I will take it, like any other combo deck in the format. It's easy to get in the habit of waiting and waiting with this deck, until you are forced to go off, but I've learned that as in life, you have to be pragmatic in Magic, to take your opening when they come, and not let them pass you by. So I will continue to cast a seemingly harmless Peek against opponents holding 5 cards in hand that I think read Fluster, Fluster, Force, Pierce, Daze, only to find out they are holding onto Bolt, Scalding Tarn, Daze, Treasure Cruise, Forked Bolt. And then I'll kill my opponents, while you wait until they draw into a counter they didn't have in the first place.

as to not clog the board, I'm basically on Felines list with -3 Fluster, -1 Meditate, -1 Impulse +1 Force, +2 Repeal, +2 Brain Freeze. Really just a normal list list with 3 DTT in the main, and 2 Repeals to help deal with the two most popular decks in the format, UR Delver and UW Miracles. My idea being that I have 4 md bounce vs Delver (2 Snaps, 2 Repeals), and 5 bounce spells vs Miracles (2 Repeals main, 3 Wishes to fetch for bounce). Can't really wish for bounce vs Delver since their cards will have done their damage, but Wishing for bounce/KGrip vs Miracles is obviously legit as their clock sucks.

Is cutting Flusterstorms right? Is cutting Brain Freeze right? Iunno, that's why Im testing. I can say that this deck needs some Repeals or Flusters in the main though, as we just need some way to interact with our opponent so they don't just goldfish us. That's our job.

[Ralf]

Another tournament report.

Here is the list I played:

1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [KTK] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [KTK] Polluted Delta
11 [UNH] Island
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [C13] Blue Sun's Zenith
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
2 [KTK] Dig Through Time
2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
2 [AL] Force of Will
2 [FUT] Pact of Negation
2 [UL] Snap
3 [IN] Opt
3 [10E] Peek
3 [RAV] Remand
3 [GP] Repeal
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [FE] High Tide
4 [TE] Meditate
4 [LG] Reset

SB: 1 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [THS] Annul
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild

4 rounds. I ended 2nd and lost in the final.

1) Reanimator 2/0 (without Iona). Lost the dice roll

I got lucky both games as I managed to prevent him from reanimating anything I could not deal with.

Peek was MVP as I could see my opponent coming.

Flusterstorm & bouncing effects (snap, echoing truth, wipe away) were very helpful.


2) Affinity 2/0. Lost the dice roll

G1 -> I stabilized at 1 and I'm forced to combo with a fling on the stack and 3 lands. I failed but I have drawn enough gas to counter the fling and I'm able to bounce anything relevant until I could try to combo again.

G2-> Uneventful as I drew into Hurkyl's recall and Rebuild...


3) U/R Delver 2/1. Won the dice roll

G1 -> A T1 Delver blind flip got repealed and I'm able to dig my way to victory with lethal on board and 6 lands in play a few turns later.
G2 -> I kept a one land opening hand with 2 cantrips (opt/BS). Both were pyroblasted... I got crushed by YP and his fellow elementals.
G3 -> Delver got repealed and I'm able to MB all his counters on the Big turn.


4) Maverick 1/2. Lost the dice roll

G1 -> I fluster a GSZ @2 suspecting a Gaddock MD. Few turns later, I dig my way to victory in response to another GSZ@2
G2 -> Mulligan to 5. T1 MoM followed by T2 Gaddock was backbreaking as I had 1 DTT and 1 Repeal in hand. I got crush by a 7/7 KOTR.
G3 -> Same story. T1 Mom T2 Gaddock...Soon followed by an Ooze eating my yard...

My wipe away were nowhere to be seen :-(

@Seraphus: I tried some of your choices.

1) Annul was bad against Maverick (no target, the Maverick player was not playing Cannonist)
2) I might go for +1 wipe away -1 Echoing truth to better deal with MoM + hatebear. BUT, I'm a bit reluctant because of the strain it puts on your mana.
3) Having no wish MB was weird but in those games I didn't feel once I need one. So I guess we could stick with a "no wish" version.
4) PoN is all or nothing. This makes me feel sick about this card... I dunno what to think about it. I'll lose games because PoN is not a FOW and I'll win games because PoN is PoN.
5) However I'm pretty sure we do not need DTT n°3. The card is great if you can cast it, which is not always the case...

[Pelikanudo]

That's not true. 3 fetchlands + 2 spells cast by turn three lets you cast a dig through time by paying 3 and delving 5. This is, in my opinion, one of the reasons one should run a large number of fetchlands. Turn 3 dig is the best way to set up a turn 4 combo if you can manage it.


You're ritght I noticed this when goldfishing...
That's why I finally put up the number of Fetches to 10 playing total 19 Lands.

Well finally played the tournament:

1st game was vs TES... 0-2 I couldn't do anything in here vs a 1st turn 12 Gobs and in second game the 2nd Xantid landed...
The second game was ANT... I was able to win the 1st game because I handle a heavy Counterspell hand, but again the second and 3rd games were dictated by Xantids and no Land drops...
The 3rd match up was a bye so I finally dropped...

Well I coudn't reach many conclusions but I have some ideas that want to test, I think we are in a development era of this deck

This is the List I finally played:


3 Snapcaster Mage

9 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn

4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
4 Dig Through Time
3 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Mental Note
4 Reset
1 Snap
1 Turnabout (The guy from the shop didn't have Snap so I needed to move the Turnabout from side to the Base....)

Sideboard

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
1 Rebuild
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Swang Song
2 Wipe Away
1 Chain Of Vapor

Well my conclusions after the brief torunament and goldfishing:
a) Decks like ANT and TES which are inherently faster seem a nightmare for this deck, sure I finally moved the 4th FoW to the side because I felt I needed 19 lands playing 10 fetches, but this is something in my opinion wrong, in my meta there are tons of different flavours of combo which are faster than us so playing less than 4 FoWs seem nonsense for me.

b) when goldfishing digging +1 card from Opt vs ability to put +2 cards in G.Y. from M.Note really affected very litle, I didn't face any mana issues - only the game I played vs ANT - but this was my fault for not doing mull. I also felt that Impulse is less relevant if you play DTT with the idea of using it on 2nd or 3rd turn - I'm not saying I will cut it, but maybe I would prefer Opt plus M.Note over this.

c) Cunning Wish is a need in this deck, but I'm starting to question if I can play 2 instead of 3 as it is a card that rarely I use unless I need to combo or put up some permanent hate - notice that for a landed thalia you just need another tide.

Also when talking with other friends which also want to try the DTT in Solidarity they also thought on Thotghscour so we are trying list by there...

This is my new testing list:

8 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

4 Brainstorm
4 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide

4 Meditate
4 Mental Note
4 Reset
2 Snap
2 Cunning Wish
2 Impulse
3 Flusterstorm
3 Snapcaster Mage

Sideboard

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pact of Negation
1 Rebuild
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Swang Song
2 Wipe Away
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Turnabout
X cards

Well I'll finally try 20 lands 12 of them fetches. maybe I test next 18 lands 10 fetches and 0 impulse and 4 opt, what do you think about this?
I reduced drastically the number of impulse, sure I'd like to play 4 but prefer other cards.
For me snap is ok, a difference from Turnabout which I like is its ability to untap 2 lands for only 2 mana, I found scenarios in which I needed to Tide > Meditate and find reset OR snap NOT Turnabout to next just simply DTT into reset!
I don't think B.F. is needed in the main as there are tons of Emrakul decks by there which frustates our WinCon, for me is in deed a dead card, I also reduced its number in side to just 1.

About Peek vs Opt:
For me it is 100 % clear: Opt is far superior than Peek, Peek doesn't dig, Opt does dig and looking at Opp. Hand is not relevant, if you look at David Gearherat list evlution you'll notice that thecreator started tro play 2 next 1 and next 0 Peek, they're just training wheels, and also please do not compare Peek and G.P. it is an offense.

[JDK]

Especially someone who plays Mental Note over Thought Scour should think about "training wheels". ;)

Also, how does your list do against UR Delver? The additional lifeloss from the fetchlands is relevant and you lack bounce.
Plus Opt & Impulse are necessary to get some kind of early selection other than Brainstorm.

[Pelikanudo]

Especially someone who plays Mental Note over Thought Scour should think about "training wheels". ;)

Well, I'm at testing stage and I don't currently own T.Scour but I agree that T.Scour is superior than M.Note... in my testing context there is not that much the difference between one and other...

Also, how does your list do against UR Delver?

Don't know, I didn't test that match up.

The additional lifeloss from the fetchlands is relevant and you lack bounce.

you're right, but having 3 FoWs instead of 4 is worse vs this archetype also, I also intend to play 20 lands which is relevant vs tempo archetypes. Related to bouncers, well I have snaps, but I don't think the goal of snap is to bounce some creature so that I do not die... I prefer to have a solid base, I have PoN in side for this archetype
Related to Repeal, well it can be good for this match up, but vs Combo decks is just shit as you don't have target and the unique target is your own spacasters.

Plus Opt & Impulse are necessary to get some kind of early selection other than Brainstorm.
I need to agree but my goal is to use DTT for this purpose. that is why I proposed to just use 18 lands 4 opt 4 M.Note 4 DTT and 0 impulse.

All this is theory, I need to do a lot of testing with this...

After testing I need to conclude if finally DTT makes the deck a tier 1.5 again or likes or I'll abandon again this deck to go back to my other flavours of Combo...

[JDK]

Of course Snap is also there to bounce opposing creatures. Not only hatebears, but also to buy you turns. As you experienced, bounce versus a Xantid Swarm is still valid. ;)

Oh, and DTT is not "early selection".

How do you determine if a deck is Tier X, when you don't test against the DTBs?

[Pelikanudo]

Of course Snap is also there to bounce opposing creatures. Not only hatebears, but also to buy you turns. As you experienced, bounce versus a Xantid Swarm is still valid. ;)

Well bouncing a Turn 1 or even a turn 2 Xantid can gain you an extra turn, however you are still in a position in which you'll loose the game in 2nd or 3rd turn..., we are a 4th turn win

Oh, and DTT is not "early selection".

Well, my idea about this is to clearly make it an "early selection"

How do you determine if a deck is Tier X, when you don't test against the DTBs?

it is simple, I'm the best storm player by here, If I take the deck and after tunning it and I loose more match ups than I win during n+15 decks for example, then it is not a tier 1.5 deck.

EDIT: Didn't intend to be prepotent.
As said still need to test vs UR and miracles, I was a D.Gerheart Old Era pilot of this deck and now I feel like I'm trying to make this deck a Tier 1 or 1.5 deck as My Parfait Build... Of course I wasn't able to make my Parfait build win most of the games. snif..

[JDK]

You being the "best" storm player and "tuning" your list in your local group doesn't mean anything at all in terms of viability. Plus you cannot make DTT work on Turn 1 or 2.

You bounce Swarm to make your counters active, which buy you more time. If you have any, that is. I don't know why you want to argue about this. What other options do you have to not die?
Besides, Solidarity can go off on turn 3, especially when hijacking opposing Storm counts.

[PetesMcskeets]

Plus you cannot make DTT work on Turn 1 or 2.

Turn 1 fetch, mental note. Turn 2 fetch, snap, DTT.

[Seraphus]

Turn 1 fetch, mental note. Turn 2 fetch, snap, DTT.

metal note into HT+Brain freeze plus daze on the other side hum... Wait I love these random assigned dudes coming here and say shit that everyone knows... Man he is referring himself to the viability of the play...

In case your that reply was going to be "not all decks play Daze": only DnT/Maverick doesn't play daze (in the lot of decks to be concern with) but they play mother, so invalid point again...

[JDK]

Turn 1 fetch, mental note. Turn 2 fetch, snap, DTT.

Cool, you play DTT for zero card advantage and only if a creature is on the battlefield. Instead you could just go land, Brainstorm, fetch, Impulse. This play also doesn't make you cry if one of them gets countered.

[astormbrewing]

Went 2-1 at Legacy FNM tonight. List is as follows:

1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
3 Dig Through Time
2 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
4 Opt
1 Pact of Negation
4 Reset
2 Snap
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Turnabout

10 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Dig Through Time
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pact of Negation
1 Polymorphist's Jest
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Snap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away

Round 1 vs Pox (2-1)
Game 1: He made me discard via 2 Inquisition of Kozileks, and I FoW'd a Hymn and Liliana. He puts on the beats with Nether Spirit. During his draw step, I have 5 lands and Strand in play, attempt to crack it, and he tries to Cursed Scroll in response to kill me. I proceed to combo with 5 lands in play.

High Tide - Opt - Meditate - Brainstorm - Reset - Meditate - High Tide - Dig Through Time - Meditate - High Tide - Reset - Impulse - Cunning Wish (USZ) - Reset - Brain Freeze - USZ

Game 2: He puts on the early beats with Nether Spirit and Mishra's Factory, and I draw very poorly.

Game 3: He stalls on 2 lands for a while, and I sculpt a great hand. He eventually tries to cast Hymn to Tourach, and I combo in response.

(o)Hymn to Tourach - High Tide - Meditate - High Tide - Dig Through Time - Reset - Snapcaster Mage - Meditate - Snap - Snapcaster Mage - Impulse - Meditate - Impulse - Reset - Snapcaster Mage - Impulse - Cunning Wish (USZ) - Brain Freeze - USZ

Round 2 vs 4-color Delver (1-2)
Game 1: He puts me on a fast clock and miss a land drop or two. I attempt to combo on 3 lands and fail.

High Tide - (o)Lightning Bolt - (o)Lightning Bolt - High Tide - Reset - Meditate - Opt

Game 2: I have a pretty solid hand with 3 lands in play, and he taps out with 1 card in hand to cast Treasure Cruise. Seems like a good time.

(o)Treasure Cruise - High Tide - Reset - Meditate - High Tide - Snap - Opt - Dig Through Time - Reset - Snapcaster Mage - Meditate - Impulse - Impulse - High Tide - Reset - Brain Freeze

Game 3: Again, miss a couple land drops against a fast clock (also 2 Deathrite Shaman). My attempt to go off is cut very short.

High Tide - (o) Daze (pay 1) - (o) Daze - High Tide - Pyroblast

Round 3 vs Burn (2-1)
Game 1: I have a Force of Will for the first Eidolon, but not for the second.

Game 2: They have a Grim Lavamancer in play, and I'm on 3 lands. I end up casting way too many spells to the find the 2nd Cunning Wish I need for USZ to avoid death.

(o)Rift Bolt - High Tide - High Tide - Brainstorm - Reset - Opt - Meditate - Snapcaster Mage - High Tide - Turnabout - Meditate - High Tide - Impulse - Meditate - Cunning Wish (Snap) - Snap* - Meditate - Impulse - Snapcaster Mage - Reset - Brainstorm - Snap* - Snapcaster Mage - Meditate - Dig Through Time - Dig Through Time - Impulse - Brain Freeze - Cunning Wish (USZ) - USZ

*I relied on both of these Snaps targeting Snapcaster Mage to resolve or else I fizzle. Despite them having an active Grim Lavamancer, they choose not to use it. I should have lost this game.

Game 3: Yet again I go off on 3 lands to avoid death on the next turn.

(o)Rift Bolt - High Tide - Snap (target Grim, they activate in response) - Reset - (o)Fireblast - Dig Through Time - Flusterstorm (on Fireblast) - Impulse - High Tide - Reset - Cunning Wish (Dig Through Time) - Dig Through Time* - Opt - Turnabout - Snapcaster Mage - Dig Through Time* - Brain Freeze**

*Both of these Dig Through Times were cast with no cards in hand and no cards in the graveyard post-Delve.

**I was at 4 life, and Vortex was in play. They had two cards in hand (Grim and land). They could have played Grim, passed, Vortex puts me to 2, and then they activate Grim on upkeep to kill me, but they didn't see it. Again, this match was given to me by my opponent.

[Parcher]

Went 8-5 for the weekend at Philly. Not thrilled, but it was the second time I'd played the deck in the past 5 years. Beat Miracles twice, Patriot Delver, Patriot w/TNN and Pyromacer, U/W Blade w/CTop, Deadguy, Ascendancy, and TES. Lost to no-creature Miracles, Sneak, Infect, Grixis Delver, and that deck Rudy won with running 4 Counterspell, 4 Dig, etc.

Sneak won turn one on the play, and turn two on the draw. Can't afford to mull to Force against them. Grixis Delver with MD Therapies would have been winnable still if I had found any draw spells in both games I lost. The 4 Ponder, 4 Pyro version of Miracles is very tough. He won 1-0, but had a god-hand game two to stop me. I believe I can still win post-board. Infect you just have to be lucky to beat. The deck with 4 hard Counterspells+ was my fault. I didn't understand what he was playing for too long, and just played the land drop game. He allowed both Tides to resolve, which let him get under my Fstorms with hardcasting Force, Counterspell and REBs.

4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
3 Dig through Time
2 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
2 Repeal

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
8 Island
2 Volcanic Island


1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Meditate
1 Flusterstorm
2 Sudden Shock
2 Hydroblast
1 Wipe Away
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rebuild

Prolly going to cut the Meditate in the board for the 3rd Pyro. I never Wished for it once, and only boarded it in against Deadguy. Might feel different if there was more discard in the format. And there were multiple times that I boarded in both Pyros, and had moments where Wishing for the 3rd would have changed the game, if not won it.

Beat both Patriot decks with combat damage, though needed the Red spells to do it. One was Snap attacks+Shock and flashback, the other was Snap attacks, plus killing two of his Mages with Pyros. Only got Wasted once the entire time. No one is playing it, and it's easy to see coming. The one game it happened, he went turn one Delver, and I Forced. He went turn two Delver, and on turn three I Repealed it. He replayed it post-combat, and I Pyro'ed it turn four after his third straight blind filp. He then Wasted my Volc, but had no more threats to play that turn. So I was still at like 16 on turn five when he dropped a Stoneforge. Basically lost a land and a card for a double timewalk, and won easily. Only really used Shock against MMage, and Infect, but I just never saw any other Hatebears.

[JDK]

Lost the last round in my first v4 DE due to MODO not recognizing my Ctrl-Key. Played SCM (pressing Ctrl) for a double Brain Freeze (lethal), but oh well. At least I got a 2-land kill against UWR.

The current meta is fucked up anyway...played UWR Blade, UWR Miracles, UWR Blade and Storm.

[Kanti]

Parcher, you list made me laugh out loud. Everyone is going to run Pyroblasts? Fine, I'll run some Hydroblasts to deal with those Pyros, and I'll run some damn Pyroblasts myself while I'm at it. Eat that. Think Electrolyze deserves a shout out for that list. Looks amazing if it can get past Daze and Pierce.

Somehow the meta is just as bad as the Team America Delver meta for us, if not worse. Counters+discard rotates out, main-deck REBs and Wasteland.dec rotates in (I think a meta with Wasteland is good for us). I mean really, md Pyro's? Damn you format.

edit: er meant to say Wasteland.dec rotated out. Meaning almost every deck has an easy access to their splash. I won't ever face a mana-screwed opponent again it seems. No more akward basic+basic draws.

[lexluthor]

Treasure Cruise is banned!!

How much will be that it improves our deck?

[eostby]

Treasure Cruise is banned!!

How much will be that it improves our deck?

Best case scenario: Pyroblasts and REBs see a sharp decline in play, and for whatever reason, discard decks don't make a substantial comeback. Solidarity becomes a very, very good choice.

Worst case scenario: People continue to maindeck Pyroblast and occasionally REB, and discard decks become a reasonable metagame choice again. Solidarity stays about where it is, or becomes slightly worse.

The likely answer is somewhere in between, but my (slightly optimistic) guess is that we maybe get back a few percentage points against some decks, and stay about where we were against most of the rest of the field, ie still a decent T2 choice.

[feline]

Leaning towards Solidarity this weekend for DC, but sshh, it's a secret. 8-)

[astormbrewing]

Went 3-0 last night at Legacy FNM with the same list I played two weeks ago (here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12086-Deck-Solidarity&p=860226&viewfull=1#post860226)). There is nothing I want to change in the main, but the side might need some work. I beat Shardless BUG, Shardless Bant, and MUD. Now 5-1 in the past couple weeks. Will be playing Sunday in the Premiere IQ at SCG DC.

[Asthereal]

Leaning towards Solidarity this weekend for DC, but sshh, it's a secret. 8-)
Good thing it's not publicly available info on the net. :wink::laugh:



Will be playing Sunday in the Premiere IQ at SCG DC.
Good luck to you both, and let us know how it went!

[Kanti]

Main-deck Flusterstorms will be taking up my Repeal slots as BUG cycles back in. I've always beleived that BUG tempo is a horrible match-up, but by swapping Repeals--->Flusterstorm I'm sure it gets better.

ps; anyone see the crazy price hike of Reset? It was 14 bucks on most websites in mid-December, now it sits at a cool 33 bucks. What the hell is that?

[eostby]

$33? :eek: Glad I grabbed my Italian playset a while ago (although it appears the Italian version isn't experiencing the same type of price hike, based on SCG).

[JPoJohnson]

Wow, glad I got them at $10. What caused the hype?

[Kanti]

Beats me. +20$ price hike is ridiculous. And even though I speak Italian I'd always want to play with English cards. It's Reset-High Tide, not Riasetto-High Tide!

I think in general older cards will start to get more expensive, though I did think it would be more progressive. I remember reading a post on Legends here not long ago, and there really weren't many Legend packs printed from what I gathered.

[astormbrewing]

Made a couple last minute sideboard changes. Dropped Ravenous Trap and Polymorphous Jest for the 4th Force of Will (3 main) and 2nd Surgical Extraction. Super comfortable with the main, and now happier with the side.

[l33twashOr]

Starting with this deck and need to ask any advice how to play around rest in peace ? In my local meta there are few deck with it main and in my goldfish attempts usually the graveyard is helping alot with comboing.

[astormbrewing]

Went 1-3 today. Lost to Miracles, ANT, and Death & Taxes. Beat Manaless Dredge.

I have surgery this week, so I'm taking a few weeks off. Going to try some different, weird things with the deck, and I'll let you know if anything pans out.

[feline]

Went 5-3 for 40th place at SCGDC (IQ, whatever it's called) playing Solidarity. I was in contention until a loss in round 6, was nice to actually get 4 wins in a row, after starting with a loss round 1 I was thinking "ugh, I hope this isn't a bad run.

Losses were to Infect, in which I could have saved Force of Will for a more relevant spell one of the games and potentially lasted longer.
Another loss was to ANT played by SCG's Bruce, who I didn't get a game against.
3rd loss I don't remember but it was round 7.


Also to note, I didn't play against a Delver deck until the last round, and I won that round.

[l33twashOr]

Went 5-3 for 40th place at SCGDC (IQ, whatever it's called) playing Solidarity. I was in contention until a loss in round 6, was nice to actually get 4 wins in a row, after starting with a loss round 1 I was thinking "ugh, I hope this isn't a bad run.

Losses were to Infect, in which I could have saved Force of Will for a more relevant spell one of the games and potentially lasted longer.
Another loss was to ANT played by SCG's Bruce, who I didn't get a game against.
3rd loss I don't remember but it was round 7.


Also to note, I didn't play against a Delver deck until the last round, and I won that round.

Did you play the same list that were shown in the deck tech last year or got something new?

[feline]

Same list pretty much, though I tried a 1 of Psionic Blast in the sideboard, never wished for it though, will probably be a Ravenous Trap next time.

[Asthereal]

Went 5-3 for 40th place at SCGDC (IQ, whatever it's called) playing Solidarity. I was in contention until a loss in round 6, was nice to actually get 4 wins in a row, after starting with a loss round 1 I was thinking "ugh, I hope this isn't a bad run.

Losses were to Infect, in which I could have saved Force of Will for a more relevant spell one of the games and potentially lasted longer.
Another loss was to ANT played by SCG's Bruce, who I didn't get a game against.
3rd loss I don't remember but it was round 7.


Also to note, I didn't play against a Delver deck until the last round, and I won that round.
Too bad you didn't make it!

Online I saw a guy play 1 or 2 main deck Merchant Scrolls. He said he didn't have too many issues with them mid-combo, because it's only a few anyway, and they are basically Demonic Tutors in this deck, so I'd be tempted to try them out as well. Has anyone here tried them?

[Ralf]

Another very brief tournament report.

I went 3-1-1. Lost to unbeatable hands of Dark Maverick and drew against BUG Delver.
Beat Dredge, Omni and Stiflenaught Delver. Each 2-1.

Here is the list I played:

3 [KTK] Flooded Strand
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
9 [UNH] Island
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [C13] Blue Sun's Zenith
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [KTK] Dig Through Time
2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [UL] Snap
4 [IN] Opt
1 [10E] Peek
3 [RAV] Remand
3 [GP] Repeal
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [FE] High Tide
4 [TE] Meditate
4 [LG] Reset

SB: 1 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [THS] Annul
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [CMD] Flusterstorm

Moving forward and anticipating a resurgence of Tempo strategies, we will have to cope with more spell pierce and more stifle. Discard should also make a come back.

Game's pace will definitely slow a bit down and there will be even more interactions.

Thus, I'll be testing the following changes:

-1 opt
-1 peek
+1 repeal
+1 fetch

Happy testing.

[SirTylerGalt]

While playing Miracles, Ari Lax encountered Solidarity on MODO (round 1):

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30154_Video-Miracles-In-Legacy.html

Hilarious games. At first he thinks he is playing against Show&Tell, then MODO bugs while sideboarding and he ends up playing his second game without sideboarding (drawing 2 StP, 1 Terminue, and 1 Entreat... which should have been Flusterstorm / REB).

PS: it's a premium article, so if you don't have premium, it will be available for free one month from now...

[Pelikanudo]

@Feline mainly and you Stomers

Well after testing the Mental note approach, I defniately will leave the DTT as a card to play in the late mid game, this is the list I'm testing:

4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [KTK] Polluted Delta
10 [UNH] Island

3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
3 [KTK] Dig Through Time
3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [UL] Snap
4 [IN] Opt
2 Snap
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [FE] High Tide
4 [TE] Meditate
4 [LG] Reset

SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [CMD] Flusterstorm
3 SpellSnare
1 DTT
1 BluSuns Zenith
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Snap
1 TurnAbout


Notes:
- I decided that 2nd B.F. was not needed, the fact that Blue decks play FlusterStorm now it doesn't seem to be a good approach to play several B.F. against them
- finally I¨prefer keeping the 4th FoW main - to handle better the Combo Decks around here.
- I'm going to test Spell snare against hatebears, miracles and Storm to see if Works - I was trying in these slots Swang Son but it is not ok vs Storm
- I've been evaluating to try something different vs Sneak and Omni variants, instead of SpellSnare - thats why Swan Song will be the following tester, maybe a Split of 2-1 will be ok, dunno... what I really hate from Swang Song is that Storm players can use it to flashback therapy..., I'll see if just adding 2 more cards from side to Sneak variants makes me win the game.
- the PoN is for Tempo match ups - this card really shines for this kind of match ups...

Opinions?

[astormbrewing]

- I'm going to test Spell snare against hatebears, miracles and Storm to see if Works - I was trying in these slots Swang Son but it is not ok vs Storm


This is what I will be testing in February when I can play.

[GoldenCid]

-1 fluster +1 peek?

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

[Ralf]

@Feline mainly and you Stomers

Notes:
- I'm going to test Spell snare against hatebears, miracles and Storm to see if Works - I was trying in these slots Swang Son but it is not ok vs Storm

Opinions?

I'm still believing "repeal" to be a must include.

Concerning the "snare" topic, unfortunately, hatebears usually come into play:
- through vial / cavern of souls
- or most of the other time through GSZ.

Most of the time snare will be irrelevant.

[astormbrewing]

I'm still believing "repeal" to be a must include.

Concerning the "snare" topic, unfortunately, hatebears usually come into play:
- through vial / cavern of souls
- or most of the other time through GSZ.

Most of the time snare will be irrelevant.

Vial is a concern, yes. Cavern of Souls? Europe must have a different meta game, because I don't remember the last time I saw any Death & Taxes deck (or Maverick deck) play that card, especially with Wasteland on the rise again.

If I'm playing against a GSZ deck, I'm happy to keep Flusterstorm in, too.

Spell Snare also gets Chalice on 1, Hymn to Tourach, and Rest in Peace, all troublesome cards. It also counters Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant.

Note: I'm not saying Spell Snare is the end all answer. I bring it in over Flusterstorm in some matches, but I also have some creature/permanent bounce, too.

[Pelikanudo]

I'm still believing "repeal" to be a must include.

Concerning the "snare" topic, unfortunately, hatebears usually come into play:
- through vial / cavern of souls
- or most of the other time through GSZ.

Most of the time snare will be irrelevant.

Well, I have no space in my main and absolutly prefer Snap over Repeal.

Well as AstormBrewing said, is good also vs c.b. and other stuff, in my testing a Thalia as example can be avoided simply with +1 Tide... this is not TES or ANT...

[astormbrewing]

Well as AstormBrewing said, is good also vs c.b. and other stuff, in my testing a Thalia as example can be avoided simply with +1 Tide... this is not TES or ANT...

Yes, also good versus Counterbalance (they also run Counterspell, so there's another).

[Ralf]

Yes, also good versus Counterbalance (they also run Counterspell, so there's another).

Well, I am running annul instead of snare.
I guess it comes to being able to hit a Vial or a SDT or not .

The problem has never been Thalia, alone. But she delays our combo turn a lot (our cheap cantrips are very bad at reaching 4 mana). And if she is protected it is even worse.
Against D&T you have to face Mom, SoL, canonist etc...
Against Maverick you have DRS, Gaddock.

And I guess cavern of souls is Vial n°5 as D&T and maverick players are packing at least 1 or 2 copies here.

[SirTylerGalt]

Solidarity Deck Tech (in German): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkuIVCabSfw

I got to practice my german after a few years of not speaking it :D

[Bosaapje]

So I decided to make Solidarity because I want a combo deck with FoW and Brainstorm. As of now I don't wanna go for Spiral Tide because I don't wanna pay 800€ for 4 Candles so I made a list, what do you guys think of it?

Land 19
11 Island
8 Fetch

Instants 41
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Reset
4 High Tide
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
3 Flusterstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Dig Through Time (although it may be a bit much, based on goldfishing)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Snap
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:
1 Dig Through Time
1 Wipe Away
1 Flusterstorm
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Rebuild
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap
10-15???


How is this list as a start? Do I need some other things? Thanks!

[Ralf]

How is this list as a start? Do I need some other things? Thanks!

Not playing "Meditate" is certainly an option that deserves a LOT of testing.
You have lowered a little bit your "cantripping" mana curve and you might even be able to combo earlier.

But by doing so you are relying even more on your graveyard to generate some card advantage (Snapcaster + DTT).
I'm also very concerned by the fact that with such a list you are really softer to discard strategies.
Finally, your testing must prove that your fizzle rate is 1 game out of 10.

If it is the route you wanna take, I would play a meditate in your sideboard instead of DTT n°4. At least you would have access to a big draw spell not impacted by graveyard hate with your wish.
I would also cut two lands for another fetch. Why ? You have a lot of digging power with your setup with 4 BS, 4 Opt and 4 Impulse. It will increase your odd of having 6 cards in the grave for a T3 -> DTT.

Here is a sample of what could happen at end of your opponent turn:
T1 -> Fetch/Island + BS/Opt for 2nd land
T2 -> Fetch/Island + Impulse for 3rd land /BS+Opt/BS or Opt + remaining mana to counter something
T3 -> Fetch/Island + DTT => to prepare the combo on T4
T4 -> Fetch/Island -> kill

I would try the following config:

9 islands
9 fetch
+1 repeal/remand/snap/what you think of => IMO, better be something which give you a draw.

Happy testing.

[Bosaapje]

Oh I totally forgot Meditate. And I don't really want to take a route, I just want to play a good deck so what would you cut then for 4 Meditates? And do I also need to lower my land count even if I'm going to play Meditate?

Repeal seems pretty good to me, I run it a lot in Vintage where it can take a very diverse role so I'm optimistic of running it.

[Ralf]

Repeal seems pretty good to me, I run it a lot in Vintage where it can take a very diverse role so I'm optimistic of running it.

Well, you should read a couple of pages back.

You will find a few "tournament proof" lists.

Here is my latest list built to fight tempo strategies & hatebears.

2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
10 Island
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Cunning Wish
1 Brain Freeze
3 Dig Through Time
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Snap
4 Opt
3 Remand
4 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Meditate
4 Reset

SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Wipe Away
SB: 3 Spell Snare
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Cunning Wish

If your meta is infest with Sneak & MUD, replace the spell snare by annul.

By no means it is THE list but I did play it (very very few tweaks between MD & side, usually 1 card) to 4 tournaments at least with good results.
So it might be a good starting point for anyone interested in the archetype.

Have fun and don't drop the archetype too fast, this deck DEMANDS a lot of testing.

[Bosaapje]

Well, you should read a couple of pages back.

You will find a few "tournament proof" lists.

Here is my latest list built to fight tempo strategies & hatebears.

2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
10 Island
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Cunning Wish
1 Brain Freeze
3 Dig Through Time
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Snap
4 Opt
3 Remand
4 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Meditate
4 Reset

SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Wipe Away
SB: 3 Spell Snare
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Cunning Wish

If your meta is infest with Sneak & MUD, replace the spell snare by annul.

By no means it is THE list but I did play it (very very few tweaks between MD & side, usually 1 card) to 4 tournaments at least with good results.
So it might be a good starting point for anyone interested in the archetype.

Have fun and don't drop the archetype too fast, this deck DEMANDS a lot of testing.

My meta is a pretty diverse meta with no one big deck that's oppressive so I would like to make a build that's capable of dealing with most decks. Dredge isn't a big one in my meta, so I guess that Ravenous Trap could become a Surgical Extraction but other than that I don't have any thoughts to build the sideboard different than you the one that you posted. Why are there Spell Snares in the board? Is it against Rest in Peace? Or are there more targets like Goyf, just to stop there game plan and give us more time?

Why do you only run 1 Wish? Isn't wish like the all star in the deck? And why no Zenith MB? It's pretty good to continue with comboing or to deck the opponent right?

[Ralf]

Well, playing the deck will show you that once you go off, you have easily access to your whole library. So the BSZ is not mandatory MD since you can wish for it during the combo turn if you really need an instant kill.

You are also not cold dead to a resolved chalice on 1.
Yet, we can argue about playing the 2nd wish directly in the board but I have found that with 3 remand you just have sometime the perfect hand to kill T3 (which is not as easy if you need to wish for BF).

It is up to you.

As far as spell snare is concerned, it will help you G2 & G3 against fair decks. Basically, you side out FOW for 3 snare & the 3rd flusterstorm. Against tempo, you will also side out 2 remand for 2 MBT.

Snare will generally deal permanently with the most common threats in legacy. Be it a Tarmo, a snapcaster, dark confidant, thalia, Gaddock, Counterbalance, RIP, Meddling Mage, Eidolon, Canonist, Spirit of the labyrinth, defense grid, Hymn to Tourach, Infernal tutor, "you name it", etc...
Obviously, this will gives you extra time to sculpt the perfect hand before going off.

Against black, I usually side out 1 tide, 1 reset & 1 meditate to avoid any extraction effect on a major combo piece.
Instead, the 2nd wish & the BSZ comes in.

I prefer siding out meditate instead of DTT. As you will likely cope with some grave hate and when it comes to combo if you need to draw you will usually want to use a True draw spell (meditate) and not a conditional one (DTT).

The only awkward MU is miracle. As I tend to side out all tides and to keep 1 or 2 reset MD. This is the hard control route. 2 BF, 2 wish + BSZ + surgical are usually enough to kill miracle with 6 to 10 island in play. You just try to out control them by countering what matters and playing as much land as you can. With 4 meditate + 3 DTT you should have the upper hand in terms of card advantage and Counterspells. Chaining BF is a good way to kill them

Hope these insights will be useful to play the deck.
Remember, take your time. The more land drops you make, the easier it is to win.

And yes you can replace ravenous trap by a 3rd surgical which I would do if dredge is not a common MU.