[Deck] Solidarity

[Silent Requiem]

I have played around with these splashes slightly, and they are really a metagame call.

Remember that we really only have a sideboard of 10 or so, as the other cards are pretty much our fixed wishboard. This means that we can't afford to hate on any particular deck unless it is very prevelant in our meta.

Grip is a perfect example. The only time I want Grip rather than a bounce card is against Countertop, and even then Wipeaway does a decent job. So by playing Grip I may well be losing the bounce that helps me in my other matchups.

This really is where the trouble is. If the splash does nothing more than allow us a funky sideboard card or two, it is only going to be worthwhile in very specific metagames.

-Silent Requiem

[cjva]

Piceli89: I have never feelt the need for splash color (i have tried white for chant and green for alt. wincon and grip). MonoU with Wipe Away or Cryptic Command have fullfilled my need of getting rid of CB. And i never feelt that abayence (i like it more becouse it cantrips) has been needed.

The tournament i played this weekend i opted for solidarity.

I took more mulligans then i played games (atleast 1 per game, but mull to 5 happend alot). and got realy tilted. But atleast i tried out mindbreak trap, and i realy rocked. Played against some controldeck, and with two reset and fow on my side of the stack and 1 snare and 2 fow's on his side of the stack i could empty his side, and get all my spells thru. I fizzled when i was comboing of (fow, land, land, opt on a meditate) and when i Flash of insight for ten i see 8 or 7 lands and crap.

[Seraphus]

hi in 27 and 28/2/2010 is the gp madrid and the format is LEGACY!!!!

Who ill play there? and if yes who will take solidarity was a possible deck to win the gp?

[Van Phanel]

Unless something unexpected like Flash is happening I will.

Even though I seem unable to find an optimal list at the moment, but there's a lot of time after all..

[Seraphus]

Unless something unexpected like Flash is happening I will.

Even though I seem unable to find an optimal list at the moment, but there's a lot of time after all..

I see ur last decklist why losse the cryptic and the only two remands? twincast is no good (this is my short experience talking but...) in maindeck.

[cjva]

Most likely ill go to Madrid, and if i go to Madrid ill most likely play solidarity.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Isn't Columbus a Legacy GP too?

[Seraphus]

columbus is also legacy...

who thinks one repeal maindecked (manking a 61 cards deck) is a positive factor and an usefull?

[noobslayer]

Someone asked about the mirror.

You want to bring in your 3rd Brainfreeze (I was running 4 between the main and the side), all your Twincast, and in my case, 3 Stifle (I ran three in the board).

Board out your resets, and I think I was boarding out three tides. Basically, you want to do short 2-3 spells combos. The goal is by the time they are ready to go, you already have half their deck in the yard. You stifle their fetch drops, and try to cost them tempo and resources. I tested this a long time ago against the other local solidarity player, and the strategy was extremely solid.

[Seraphus]

Someone asked about the mirror.

You want to bring in your 3rd Brainfreeze (I was running 4 between the main and the side), all your Twincast, and in my case, 3 Stifle (I ran three in the board).

Board out your resets, and I think I was boarding out three tides. Basically, you want to do short 2-3 spells combos. The goal is by the time they are ready to go, you already have half their deck in the yard. You stifle their fetch drops, and try to cost them tempo and resources. I tested this a long time ago against the other local solidarity player, and the strategy was extremely solid.

using 4 brainfreeze is too much, and 3 stifle in sb is kill card slots because the mirror the one with better timing finishing it is the one who wins (key word timing do to the fact that u will always know if he is going to start the combo... remenber solidarity is a proactive deck and an isntant speed deck even facing mirror...

and i m sorry but i think that the stifle is a bad card to be played on solidarity my only doubt could be playing as sb one trikbind in case u don't have mana to pay for the stroke in response to gae's blessing...

[cjva]

I agree about the 4 freeze in main/sb, and about the stifle. Might be a thing when you expect to face many solidarity players, but as we all know, that is not likely to happen.

Collumbus is a Legacy GP as well, but i guess the ppl replying about Madrid are the Euro's hanging on this forum. I will most likely go to Collumbus as well if i can find the money/time for it.

About Repeal, i have played two repeal in the Cryptic/twincast/random stuff slots. It was not that good. Going to 61 cards is not an option, but i must admit that i'v been thinking of that as well. But my last card whould be an Island.

[KZhang]

i actually Solidarity can have a good rogue factor especially seeing how CB decks arent doing as well as they use to.

i'm not sure if solidarity is still fast enough for the metagame though.

Pls go there and kickass and bring a little more attention back to this great deck.

[Seraphus]

i actually Solidarity can have a good rogue factor especially seeing how CB decks arent doing as well as they use to.

i'm not sure if solidarity is still fast enough for the metagame though.

Pls go there and kickass and bring a little more attention back to this great deck.

the problem is if u see some reports of spanish latest tornaments u see that dredge (a favor match-up against cb decks) is always (with some exceptions) on top 8 like other decks that are more favor against control (and cb)... this could meaning that c. balanced decks or control decks are also comun played there...

solidarity is fast enough due to the fact that mindbreak trap is a combokiller like played against belcher deck (unfortunatly :cry: ) that is the faster deck arround... dredge is very hard if it combo out at the second turn to reanimate iona (fow needed here or add a slaugther pact to sb - witch i don´t recomend sb is very precious and very dificult to arrange in this deck)... the worst match up to solidarity is reanimate bu entomb deck it play a iona on the first turn if needed and can protect it throught fow and daze... i think spell pierce is a good add to sb instead of disrupt (spell pierce can be usefull against aether vial - goblins and merfolk, arcane laboratory and the extra mana needed to be payed will do some damage) - disrupt= fragil disruption plus draw spell pierce = strong disruption to everything except creature...

hope my (not so well written) words help everyone game.

[noobslayer]

using 4 brainfreeze is too much, and 3 stifle in sb is kill card slots because the mirror the one with better timing finishing it is the one who wins (key word timing do to the fact that u will always know if he is going to start the combo... remember solidarity is a proactive deck and an instant speed deck even facing mirror...

I never had any issues fitting everything into the sideboard that I needed when I was active. My mirror strategy is about quick attrition. You're trying to fizzle his combo for him.


I agree about the 4 freeze in main/sb, and about the stifle. Might be a thing when you expect to face many solidarity players, but as we all know, that is not likely to happen.

Stifle had other uses as well. It helped against virtually every other combo deck.

By the way, my sideboard for reference:

x1 Chain of Vapor
x2 Echoing Truth
x1 Wipe Away
x2 Brainfreeze
x1 Meditate
x1 Reset
x1 Turnabout
x1 Stroke of Genius
x2 Twincast
x3 Stifle

You also made a comment about Gaea's Blessing. You shouldn't really be losing games to it. As you get more experienced with the deck it will be come more and more common for you to sequence your actions to be able to handle it.

[Seraphus]

I never had any issues fitting everything into the sideboard that I needed when I was active. My mirror strategy is about quick attrition. You're trying to fizzle his combo for him.



Stifle had other uses as well. It helped against virtually every other combo deck.

By the way, my sideboard for reference:

x1 Chain of Vapor
x2 Echoing Truth
x1 Wipe Away
x2 Brainfreeze
x1 Meditate
x1 Reset
x1 Turnabout
x1 Stroke of Genius
x2 Twincast
x3 Stifle

You also made a comment about Gaea's Blessing. You shouldn't really be losing games to it. As you get more experienced with the deck it will be come more and more common for you to sequence your actions to be able to handle it.

the gae's blesing problem is stroke of genius (it's only a problem when u don't have enought mana)

[cjva]

It might only be me, but the only other combodeck i ever experienced to be a problem is Ichorid.

Every other combo-matchup should result in us playing the controller, with a combowin when they try to combo of.

the biggest problem i'v had with this deck, now that i think of it, is myself (tired) or the fizzlefactor.

[Seraphus]

It might only be me, but the only other combodeck i ever experienced to be a problem is Ichorid.

Every other combo-matchup should result in us playing the controller, with a combowin when they try to combo of.

the biggest problem i'v had with this deck, now that i think of it, is myself (tired) or the fizzlefactor.

those two are the biggest problem of the deck in other words: the worst enemy or matchup of solidarity is it self. no other deck demands concentration as mutch as solidarity this only means that who can well solidarity is a better player (just kiding):laugh:

the instant speed response is awesome and makes the diference in this deck...

[cjva]

nothing to j/k about, becouse its true. If you lose with solidarity, its most likely becouse your bad. Thats the strongest part with the deck acording to me. Right now i feel rather unfocused when playing solidarity, so i opt to play something easier instead. =)

[TheyCallMeTim]

What is the most current, optimized deck list? The following is the build I will be playing tomorrow, although it is a little old and it seems there have been some changes.

4 Brainstrom
4 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Flash of Insight
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
13 Island
_________________

3 Disrupt
1 Stifle
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Twincast
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Evacuation

Some of the most notable changes I have read seem to be dropping Cryptic Command in favor of MD Twincast and losing some Remands for Peek. I, too, feel like losing a Flash of Insight just out of spite for Wizards constantly changing rules on me.

I used to play Twincast in the main along with Stroke and rather enjoyed it (Stroke on the stack trageting you, resolve Twincast targeting me, BF, empty the stack. Also plays well with Meditate).

I don't "roll with Team Super Playtesters" so I rarely get a chance to test out and optimize my build. Also, I have no idea what to expect for a Meta as I haven't played in a few months.

[Silent Requiem]

Your maindeck is exactly what I play, except I have 6 fetches, rather than 5.

For a while I ran Twincast over Cryptic Command, but I found that having maindeck bounce won me games against Countertop and random hate.

With regards to FoI; I never Wished for removed cards before the change, so I have not actually seen any decrease in it's utility. I still feel that it is worth playing 2 of.

Sideboarding is a meta call. I play 4 Ravenous Trap for Dredge, but then I have a few of those floating around my meta. This is my current sideboard:

1 Meditate
1 Stroke
1 Turnabout
1 Brainfreeze
1 Rebuild
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Twincast
2 Wipeaway
2 Echoing Truth

I have also tried Tolarian Winds and Mystic Tutor in the sideboard. Both are good in theory, but I never seemed to use them. I took them out to make room for my Dredge hate and have not missed them. Evacuation is an interesting choice. But I rarely have 8 mana (3 for Wish, 5 for Evac) unless I am going off, and I might as well just win then.

-Silent Requiem

[TheyCallMeTim]

So, about 17 people showed up to Gather Magic and amazingly I top 4'd. Didn't think the deck could do it, but I overcame WW, Green Aggro, DreadStill with Counterbalance, Natural Order with Counterbalance and Dredge. Squeaked into 4 way split with 3 - 2 match record due to tie breakers. I ended up playing the following list:

4 Brainstrom
4 Opt
4 Impulse
2 Remand
2 Twincast
1 Flash of Insight
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
13 Island
_________________

3 Disrupt
3 Hydroblast
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Rebuild
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Evacuation

Although I'm not able to post a report (I suffer from CRS, Can't Remember Shit) there were a few pivotal things to note.

Round 1 - Solidarity destroys WW, even with 4 of each white counterspell

Round 2 - After fizzling game one against Aggro Elves with lethal 'on the stack', I realize Evacuation is a good card. Too bad I couldn't fight the urge to grab Meditate from the wish board. I realize this match is a race and like the fact that I am now on the play. After winning game 2, I proceed to Cryptic Command his ass, buying myself that crucial extra turn and take the match 3 - 1.

Round 3 - Game 1: opponent hard casts FOW, tapping out. This is a great time to go off. Game 2: Counterbalance sucks when you've been Turnabouted (I tapped his lands then allowed him to move into the combat phase) and only have Top to reveal for the trigger. The most amazing play in Magic occurs as I Brainstorm then Twincast it in response to the CB trigger.

Round 4 - I lose the first game despite holding Reset, Reset, Twincast, Twincast, Meditate, Remand after being forced to go off sans High Tide(in response to Counterbalance). Here's how: I Reset, he FOWs, I have 4 floating. What do I do? Remand gets me another card but I'll be left with no mana (after recasting Reset). So I cast my second Reset, right? No, now I swing and miss with Meditate and am left with a Remand, 2x (now useless) Twincast and some jank consisting of Islands and Opt. Next time Twincast the first Reset (leaving it on the stack) or his FOW you fucking asstard. Nonetheless, he shows me the Progentus (along with his friendly 'return me to the library ability') and explains that I couldn't have won anyway. In game 2 some other dumb shit happens (tilt makes me stupid) that involved tapping his land with Turnabout then moving into the combat step (worked well last time, right?) and, oh shit, I lose my 3 floating mana too! Of course it makes all the difference in the world as I grind on with a 3 -1 record...

Round 5 - I hate Solidarity, and it hates me more. Of course we all hate Dredge. After milling his whole library (not too hard in this MU) he pulls out some 'return to library' tech and swings with 20 2/2 Zombies. Oh, did I mention that I haven't played since before Zendikar gave us some Traps? Well I don't have any. Game 2 gives me the play, the god hand and the Brainfreeze into Stroke for 5 goodness. Fuck you and your return-to-library-bullshit. Game 3 is a repeat of game 1 except he passes the turn to me with a board involving some Amoebas, Ichorid and Zombie tokens. Oh, and that name-a-color (hmmm, Blue?) 7/7 Angel Bitch that doesn't allow me to play spells of the named color. Thankfully my 1 win in this round probably won me a 1/4 stake in the prize pool.

Well, I guess I can remember losing pretty well. At least I suck enough at Magic to learn from my mistakes. So, Twincast is a beat stick if you know you to use it and I kinda missed the 2nd FOI (and 3rd Remand for that matter) when it really counted but managed to work around it. Sorta like missing your girlfriend when she flies 1,000 miles away. It sucks a little but then you realize the party's going on. Twins!

[Van Phanel]

I have also tried Tolarian Winds and Mystic Tutor in the sideboard. Both are good in theory, but I never seemed to use them. I took them out to make room for my Dredge hate and have not missed them. Evacuation is an interesting choice. But I rarely have 8 mana (3 for Wish, 5 for Evac) unless I am going off, and I might as well just win then.

-Silent Requiem

Mystical Tutor's main purpose is to board it in against Aggro to essentially give you a fifth High Tide. The fact that you can Wish for it is just a Bonus.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I have also tried Tolarian Winds and Mystic Tutor in the sideboard. Both are good in theory, but I never seemed to use them. I took them out to make room for my Dredge hate and have not missed them. Evacuation is an interesting choice. But I rarely have 8 mana (3 for Wish, 5 for Evac) unless I am going off, and I might as well just win then.

Both Tolarian Winds and Mystic Tutor proved useful a few times under obvious circumstances. Same applies to Evacuation. The question is whether such circumstances are rare enough to warrant replacing them with Ravenous Traps (which, as apparent from my report, I would love to have in certain MUs).

My board for reference:
3 Disrupt
3 Hydroblast
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Rebuild
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Evacuation

I can foresee replacing 1 card for Trap (as a wish target) and that'd likely be Chain of Vapor. Each time I found myself needing one I was certainly able to cast Cunning Wish. The issue with Dredge was 'putting the nail in the coffin' to fight around their library recursion. Both games I lost I was able to go off.

[Seraphus]

Both Tolarian Winds and Mystic Tutor proved useful a few times under obvious circumstances. Same applies to Evacuation. The question is whether such circumstances are rare enough to warrant replacing them with Ravenous Traps (which, as apparent from my report, I would love to have in certain MUs).

My board for reference:
3 Disrupt
3 Hydroblast
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Rebuild
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Evacuation

I can foresee replacing 1 card for Trap (as a wish target) and that'd likely be Chain of Vapor. Each time I found myself needing one I was certainly able to cast Cunning Wish. The issue with Dredge was 'putting the nail in the coffin' to fight around their library recursion. Both games I lost I was able to go off.


Don't u miss the 3th remand? i don´t know if the twincast is better than remand due to the fact u can double the storm remanding a brainfreeze...

I have been using echoing thruth in my sb (2 x) and i was thinking about drop it and use tolarian winds ravenous trap or mindbreak trap to race against counters (due to the fact that lately cb becames less played).

about the main twincast: does it really works?

[Silent Requiem]

Don't u miss the 3th remand? i don´t know if the twincast is better than remand due to the fact u can double the storm remanding a brainfreeze...

I have been using echoing thruth in my sb (2 x) and i was thinking about drop it and use tolarian winds ravenous trap or mindbreak trap to race against counters (due to the fact that lately cb becames less played).

about the main twincast: does it really works?

So many things about this deck are dependant on the way the pilot makes play decisions. When we start to go off, we have no idea how we will make the kill, and there is often more than one way to do so. I, personally, would rather have the Remand than the Twincast, but then, that's my playstyle. Others may differ.

There is no doubt that Twincast can be stupidly broken, but I prefer cards that offer me a consistent performance to cards that are occassionally broken, but sometimes dead.

Personally, I find that Echoing Truth is a very valuable card in my sideboard. I run two, but wish I could run three. It is often an alternative to Turnabout/Cryptic Command when you are facing down a lethal attack, which frees up those spells for more important roles. Maindeck, it is an answer to tokens, as well as random hate, such as Meddling Mage or Chalice. I would really not want to drop one for something as situational as Tolarian Winds.

With regards to Mystic Tutor (which someone mentioned earlier), I know it is the 5th High Tide against aggro, but I never liked the card disadvantage. When I pulled it, I always found myself wishing it was something else.

-Silent Requiem

[dal9ll]

Hey everyone!

I have a few (possibly) stupid questions real quick:

1--When you Twincast a Brainstorm or Impulse, how exactly does it play out? I assume one resolves after the other since they cant exactly occur simulaneously.

2--Now that we have 4 different fetchlands I can ask: how many is too many and why? 6 seems the number most people run but why is 12 (for example), too many?

3--Why do I see everyone running Rebuild over Hurkyl's Recall? Does anyone ever Cycle it? Or even maindeck a single copy for that matter? 1 less mana seems better than the option to cycle it, or maybe Im wrong?

Thanks everyone!

[cjva]

Hey everyone!

I have a few (possibly) stupid questions real quick:

1--When you Twincast a Brainstorm or Impulse, how exactly does it play out? I assume one resolves after the other since they cant exactly occur simulaneously.

2--Now that we have 4 different fetchlands I can ask: how many is too many and why? 6 seems the number most people run but why is 12 (for example), too many?

3--Why do I see everyone running Rebuild over Hurkyl's Recall? Does anyone ever Cycle it? Or even maindeck a single copy for that matter? 1 less mana seems better than the option to cycle it, or maybe Im wrong?

Thanks everyone!

1: The normal procedure on the stack, last in, first out. You put the brainstorm/impulse/whatever on the stack, and respond to it with twincast. Twincast is on top on the stack and will resolve first.

2: You need land drops, hitting your land drops early is crucial. So running 12 fetch thin the deck to fast. And thats even before we start to talk about the threat of stifle.

3; Is there any running rebuild main?? When i feel the need for artifact bounce i tend to run rebuild becouse of the converted cost of 3. Challice on 1 and 2 are more easy to assemble, and are probably amongst the cards i want to bounce.

hope i gave you some usefull answers, feel free to ask more. =)

[flrn]

2: You need land drops, hitting your land drops early is crucial. So running 12 fetch thin the deck to fast. And thats even before we start to talk about the threat of stifle.

3; Is there any running rebuild main?? When i feel the need for artifact bounce i tend to run rebuild becouse of the converted cost of 3. Challice on 1 and 2 are more easy to assemble, and are probably amongst the cards i want to bounce.

hope i gave you some usefull answers, feel free to ask more. =)

2: Against Aggro Deck´s you dont want to lose additional life´s due to fetching.

3: Yeah, no one is playing Chalice on 3. It also doesnt target a player, so your opponent can´t answer it with Divert or stuff like that. If you board it in, it can also be an emergency cantrip. And Recall get´s easier hit by a Counterbalance than Rebuild.

[cjva]

2: Against Aggro Deck´s you dont want to lose additional life´s due to fetching.

3: Yeah, no one is playing Chalice on 3. It also doesnt target a player, so your opponent can´t answer it with Divert or stuff like that. If you board it in, it can also be an emergency cantrip. And Recall get´s easier hit by a Counterbalance than Rebuild.

I'v played against a stax-player who had challice on 1 and 3.... and trinisphere x2.

i won.... =)

but yea, your points are more of what i said. The reason to run fetch at all is the fact that we need to shuffle away dead draws from brainstorm, and dont want draw lands when we combo off.

[dal9ll]

Thanks fellas. Much appreciated.

[fdiv_bug]

I'm really wanting to play Solidarity at an event this weekend, but I fear that I'm not practiced enough with the deck to play around CounterTop. I typically don't have a problem dealing with other control, but if he can stick a Counterbalance with a Top already on the board, I feel like it becomes nigh impossible for me to win; it feels like my only hope is to be able to counter it, have a Cryptic Command or Cunning Wish (into a Wipe Away) at the ready, or combo out then and there. Those all seem to be highly conditional choices.

I'm pretty certain this comes down to my inexperience with the deck in that matchup -- I can win pretty handily around nearly everything else -- so I'm wondering if any of the more accomplished players might have any advice for me. Or, possibly, are there any specific lists that deal better with it? I'm not even sure it's going to be showing up in force at the event, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

Thanks in advance!

[Bahamuth]

I'm really wanting to play Solidarity at an event this weekend, but I fear that I'm not practiced enough with the deck to play around CounterTop. I typically don't have a problem dealing with other control, but if he can stick a Counterbalance with a Top already on the board, I feel like it becomes nigh impossible for me to win; it feels like my only hope is to be able to counter it, have a Cryptic Command or Cunning Wish (into a Wipe Away) at the ready, or combo out then and there. Those all seem to be highly conditional choices.

I'm pretty certain this comes down to my inexperience with the deck in that matchup -- I can win pretty handily around nearly everything else -- so I'm wondering if any of the more accomplished players might have any advice for me. Or, possibly, are there any specific lists that deal better with it? I'm not even sure it's going to be showing up in force at the event, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

Thanks in advance!

You don't really have a way of playing around Counterbalance. You're right that usually, the only answer is Cunning Wish into Bounce/Grip or Command. If you expect a lot of Counterbalance, you could consider 3-4 Grip in the board and a Trop main.
Generally, there aren't a lot of decks that play both Counterbalance and Wasteland (Dreadstill is pretty much the only one, and you're going to lose there almost certainly anyway (Unless you get to play around their Wasteland by fetching (and not getting Stifled (complicated sentence, isn't it) or not being able to counter the Stifle) and Gripping the Counterbalance immediately)) and the chances of getting fucked by decks that play Wasteland aren't too high. I wouldn't do this if you don't expect that much CB or if there's a lot of Merfolk and Tempo Thresh around though.

What also helps, is playing a build with 4 Wish and 3 Tide and a Tide sb. Gives you one more option to find an answer. I usually board in the 4th Tide against aggro by the way.

I'd suggest taking a look at Hunting Pack if you have a slot left in the board and you are splashing Green. It gives you a much more immediate kill, and it punishes people for trying to counter your buisness instead of mana, which happens quite a lot. Also, it's insanely cool....

[Seraphus]

I'm really wanting to play Solidarity at an event this weekend, but I fear that I'm not practiced enough with the deck to play around CounterTop. I typically don't have a problem dealing with other control, but if he can stick a Counterbalance with a Top already on the board, I feel like it becomes nigh impossible for me to win; it feels like my only hope is to be able to counter it, have a Cryptic Command or Cunning Wish (into a Wipe Away) at the ready, or combo out then and there. Those all seem to be highly conditional choices.

I'm pretty certain this comes down to my inexperience with the deck in that matchup -- I can win pretty handily around nearly everything else -- so I'm wondering if any of the more accomplished players might have any advice for me. Or, possibly, are there any specific lists that deal better with it? I'm not even sure it's going to be showing up in force at the event, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

Thanks in advance!


To start this reply i need to explain who dificult is to (a non trained player) play with solidarity...

Lets just say that solidarity is comun referre as the deck most harder to play well with.

Whoever it's a truht fact that if u never start to play it in real tournements u never get along with it... in other words solidarity demands training, sure u can win some games and do some tricks with it without training but play it well is another story.

My advice, other than read the start os this thread (reading the first 2 pages may be the best lesson on solidarity that someone can give u), is train with the deck because, as someone said early, every player have a play stile and with this deck that is realy important.

to finish this reply about counterbalance + top, if they are in play our chance to win the game is close to 3-5% (need to resolve a cunning wish + wipe away or pass trought the counters and bounce it with cryptic and other possibility is to storm counting high and brain frezze ur opponement). alone counterbalance isn´t really that hard to beat.

Good luck...

[TheyCallMeTim]

I'm really wanting to play Solidarity at an event this weekend, but I fear that I'm not practiced enough with the deck to play around CounterTop. I typically don't have a problem dealing with other control, but if he can stick a Counterbalance with a Top already on the board, I feel like it becomes nigh impossible for me to win; it feels like my only hope is to be able to counter it, have a Cryptic Command or Cunning Wish (into a Wipe Away) at the ready, or combo out then and there. Those all seem to be highly conditional choices.

There were 2 times in my last tournament that I had to face a Counterbalance. The first time I responded by going off for the win. The second time, after a small counter war, I realized he was tapped out and had to trade Top for a draw card. I had already cast a High Tide and so decided to let the CB resolve (understanding that Brainstorm and Opt would be countered). I thought it would be tough to work around but was surprisingly easy.


With regards to Mystic Tutor (which someone mentioned earlier), I know it is the 5th High Tide against aggro, but I never liked the card disadvantage. When I pulled it, I always found myself wishing it was something else.

I never boarded in the Tutor, I have always treated it as a Wish target. For example: it's turn 3, I hold an untapper and a Meditate but no High Tide and am at 10 life. I know that I will soon be facing lethal damage. At this time, Mystical Tutor is invaluable.


Don't u miss the 3th remand? i don´t know if the twincast is better than remand due to the fact u can double the storm remanding a brainfreeze...

I reason that any time I would be able to Remand a Brainfreeze (requires 6 mana) I also would have to see half my library. Therefore, 2 will suffice. Of course it is a little different in practice than in theory and have found myself (on rare occasion) liking the idea of a 3rd Remand. This occurrence is similar in frequency to wanting an additional Island.


about the main twincast: does it really works?


There is no doubt that Twincast can be stupidly broken, but I prefer cards that offer me a consistent performance to cards that are occasionally broken, but sometimes dead.

In the past, I was frequently upset with holding a Twincast but no useful target either in hand or on the stack. Of course this was when I played it as a 3-of and wasn't quite used to playing with it. Additionally, I found it to be a dead card only when I failed to use it properly. In other words, it was only dead due to a mistake I made in playing with it. Once I got experienced with the card I've managed to better manipulate opportunities to abuse it. It has proved much more useful than Remand has. I've targeted Reset, Tide, Meditate, Cunning Wish, FOW (even Remand) and a vast amount of my opponents spells. We all agree that this deck is designed to be reactive and abuse the stack. What better card to use?

[Seraphus]

There were 2 times in my last tournament that I had to face a Counterbalance. The first time I responded by going off for the win. The second time, after a small counter war, I realized he was tapped out and had to trade Top for a draw card. I had already cast a High Tide and so decided to let the CB resolve (understanding that Brainstorm and Opt would be countered). I thought it would be tough to work around but was surprisingly easy.



I never boarded in the Tutor, I have always treated it as a Wish target. For example: it's turn 3, I hold an untapper and a Meditate but no High Tide and am at 10 life. I know that I will soon be facing lethal damage. At this time, Mystical Tutor is invaluable.



I reason that any time I would be able to Remand a Brainfreeze (requires 6 mana) I also would have to see half my library. Therefore, 2 will suffice. Of course it is a little different in practice than in theory and have found myself (on rare occasion) liking the idea of a 3rd Remand. This occurrence is similar in frequency to wanting an additional Island.





In the past, I was frequently upset with holding a Twincast but no useful target either in hand or on the stack. Of course this was when I played it as a 3-of and wasn't quite used to playing with it. Additionally, I found it to be a dead card only when I failed to use it properly. In other words, it was only dead due to a mistake I made in playing with it. Once I got experienced with the card I've managed to better manipulate opportunities to abuse it. It has proved much more useful than Remand has. I've targeted Reset, Tide, Meditate, Cunning Wish, FOW (even Remand) and a vast amount of my opponents spells. We all agree that this deck is designed to be reactive and abuse the stack. What better card to use?


In my experience the third remand is better, for example: U told that in dredge matchs u have enormous dificulties with an early game iona right? try to remand dread return and u see that it works, in stompys matchs remand could have another name: time walk! they lose a turn because the only spend a spell per turn after the first turn and remand is the salvation army to trikbind gaea's blesing (witch became more used since the painter's combo see more top 8) and against stifle it self....

Twincast is (in my point of view) worthless in main deck against decks like: red deck (witch is a 50-50 match up), goblins (also a 50-50), zoo, dredge and etc, because of the clock that thouse decks impose, hardly u will have mana on the reset to spend on twincast and twincast brain frezze sucks, doesn't copy the storm ability... and once again remand time walkes almost every one the decks that offers a clock that fast...

Twincast is good against control decks, combo decks, and discard decks (not so good but ok)...

summing all up: remand is a swiss knife time walk ussefull allround card (althought 4 is too much lol).

[TheyCallMeTim]

hardly u will have mana on the reset to spend on twincast and twincast brain frezze sucks, doesn't copy the storm ability...

Twincast typically saves you mana. It's only a 2 CC and can be a second Reset, Meditate, Cunning Wish, Turnabout (one tapping their creatures and one untapping your land, if need be) or even a Lightening Bolt if need be (targeting their own creature). Agreed that Twincasting Brainfreeze sucks, I never suggested to do that.


remand is a swiss knife time walk ussefull allround card

I've found Remand to be an awful Counter Spell. It doesn't stop any turn 1 spell (such as Goblin Lackey or Dredge's 'discard a card, do this ability' creatures) nor does it stop any turn 2 spell when we're on the draw (such as Counterbalance or Chalice for 1). Additionally, when you are able to use it as a counter, they can always recast it (sometimes on that same very turn, such as turn 2 Lackey). Although I have used it as a counter before, I almost exclusively use it to target Brainfreeze. And when you play 5 main deck Meditates, 6 Resets, 6 Impulses and 6 Brainstorms you are more likely to see cards you need. Also, notice by my deck list that I play 2 Brainfreezes, chances are that If I see a Brainfreeze (1 in 30) I will also see a Remand (1 in 30).

[Silent Requiem]

I suppose it is a metagame call. I have always found Twincast to be pretty dead against aggro decks, whereas Remand is just great, as it buys you another turn.

On the other hand, I side in Twincast when facing control.

In a way, both have a similar function when used on your own cards. Twincast doubles a given resource (be it draw, untap, counters, etc) which makes getting your storm count up easier. Remand, on the other hand, cuts the amount of storm you need in half. Different approaches to the same thing: making decking your opponent easier.

As I have said, I do not run maindeck Twincast anymore (I used to at one point). I have also seriously considered dropping them from the sideboard for matchup specific hate cards, but the rise of Merfolk in my meta means that they will probably stay in my sideboard for the time being.

If they are working for you and your playstyle, by all means keep them. I do not think they are the optimal card choice, however.

-Silent Requiem

[Seraphus]

As I have said, I do not run maindeck Twincast anymore (I used to at one point). I have also seriously considered dropping them from the sideboard for matchup specific hate cards, but the rise of Merfolk in my meta means that they will probably stay in my sideboard for the time being.

-Silent Requiem

Hi speaking of merfolks, what is ur strategy against it? is my only hard match up in my metagame (since iona reanimate with fow vanish from sight and yes my meta is full of control decks)... twincast sided in on second match is very good, do u think that echoing truth is also a good side in? but wich cards would u side out?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Hi speaking of merfolks, what is ur strategy against it? is my only hard match up in my metagame (since iona reanimate with fow vanish from sight and yes my meta is full of control decks)... twincast sided in on second match is very good, do u think that echoing truth is also a good side in? but wich cards would u side out?

From a previous post:


Merfolk is ugly but winnable matchup. They don't play Brainstorm so they rarely draw more than 1 FoW and by turn 4-5, you should be able to win through that. You obviously can't win against their goddraw, but Solidarity can rarely win against the goddraw of any blue deck. The most important thing is playing right into Cursecatchers early on so you don't lose to them and Daze. Be careful with fetchlands just like in any matchup against Stifle and you should have a chance. The matchup gets worse if they play Spellstutter Sprite or even Vendilion Clique though.

[Seraphus]

From a previous post:

Thanks

[TheyCallMeTim]

If they are working for you and your playstyle, by all means keep them. I do not think they are the optimal card choice, however.

Earlier, you stated that your decklist was the same as my first posting, with 1 more fetchland. Although I had good results with replacing 1 FOI and 1 Remand with 2 x Twincast, I feel the conversation should get back on the right track. So with that said, is this the best Solidarity build?

4 Brainstrom
4 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Flash of Insight
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

Perhaps some others would be willing to play test the Twincast slots, or maybe have other suggestions? What about sideboard?

Requiem's Board:
1 Meditate
1 Stroke
1 Turnabout
1 Brainfreeze
1 Rebuild
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Twincast
2 Wipeaway
2 Echoing Truth

Tim's Board:
3 Disrupt
3 Hydroblast
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Hyrkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Ravenous Trap

[flrn]

Mainboard:
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
1 Disrupt
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Opt
1 Peek
2 Peer Through Depths
3 Remand
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
1 Flooded Strand
12 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
1 Brain Freeze
3 Disrupt
2 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
3 Wipe Away

This is my current Setup. Aggro Decks are faster than they were before, so everytime i play against Zoo or Goblins or something like that Cryptic Command is a useless card to me. Everytime i drew the card, i asked myself why the fuck would i want to play it these days? Sure it´s a good card in a Counterbalance infested meta but in the last 2 tourney´s i had to face 1 Counterbalance Deck and when i look at the meta breakdown´s i dont see much of em around.

So i thought a bit about the deck and how i am doing in the combo and decided to go for this build. It´s 14 cc1 cards, 16 cc2 cards, 6 cc3 cards and 2 cc4 cards + 4 Force of Will, so you probably shouldnt run it in a CB meta. Since the meta here has a lot of aggro decks you wanna be able to combo out with 3 lands in play, since they can almost certain kill in round 4, which got me to this list. Im not playing Twincast either, because when im running out of steam midcombo and i draw Twincast, i fizzle. When i draw a cantrip on the other hand, i might be able to continue.

I have Ravenous Trap as 1-off in the board, to be able to wish it with Cunning Wish. Yeah third round trap seems bad against dredge, but if im desperate for it, i can still cast it with High Tide and Reset on turn 2. I also dont wanna waste 4 spots in the board on it, because i need the other spots. I can also board in 3 Disrupt against Dredge, to be able to counter their discard outlets, to slow em down.

Will play this deck tomorrow and probably write a report after.

[Kanabo]

Hydroblast:
Useful against Goblins, Burn, Goyf Sligh, basically any fast red aggro because they can sometimes be too fast. Better than Blue Elemental Blast because a red target isn't required, and thus it can be cast just to up the storm count.

can somebody please explaine this to me?

[Zinch]

Hydroblast:
Useful against Goblins, Burn, Goyf Sligh, basically any fast red aggro because they can sometimes be too fast. Better than Blue Elemental Blast because a red target isn't required, and thus it can be cast just to up the storm count.

can somebody please explaine this to me?

The difference is that BEB says "destroy target red permanent or counter target red spell" while Hydroblast reads "destroy target permanent if it is red or counter target spell if it is red" so, if you SB your hydroblasts and in the middle of the combo you draw one, you can play it even if there isn't any red target to up the storm count.
In other words, BEB requires a red target while Hydroblast only requires a target (is only efficient against red targets, but that is other issue)

[Seraphus]

4 Brainstrom
3 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Flash of Insight
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
1 Peek
1 Peer Through Depths

4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

best decklist...

[Taurelin]

1 Peer Through Depths
2 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze
best decklist...

No.

[Seraphus]

No.

do u know that this list is Ritzka's list?
out of 37 players this list is top 1!

[cjva]

do u know that this list is Ritzka's list?
out of 37 players this list is top 1!

How do you think now? What 37 players? What top 1? What am i missing?

[Taurelin]

Impressive...

My (admittedly short) reply was a subtle hint to you to provide some more information.

- Why is this the best list, in your opinion?
- Why only 2 Turnabout?
- Why play Peer through depths at all?
- No SB?

I respect Simon for everything he has done for the deck's development. But simply copy-pasting a random (and in my opinion not perfect) list doesn't help at all.

[Seraphus]

How do you think now? What 37 players? What top 1? What am i missing?

before that mesage i posted a decklist that to me is very very good!

lets just say that have 5 impulse and 1 peek instead of 4 opt due to the control matchs is amazing... btw cryptic command is one of the best cards against zoo...

but ok...

result of today's discuss:
Remand sucks, cryptic sucks, peek isn't any good and one of the most versitily decklist that gives a bigger number of options...

[Seraphus]

Impressive...

My (admittedly short) reply was a subtle hint to you to provide some more information.

- Why is this the best list, in your opinion?
- Why only 2 Turnabout?
- Why play Peer through depths at all?
- No SB?

I respect Simon for everything he has done for the deck's development. But simply copy-pasting a random (and in my opinion not perfect) list doesn't help at all.


I am playing this list, because to many times i have turnabout and nothing to do with it, because cryptic does the job of tapping creature and peer of have a 5 impulse!
in my opinion sb is something that a player must "bet" is personal ideas (but never exclude the core cards: stroke, meditate, turnabout and rebuild) for example i play the third brainfreeze in sb due to the fact that some matchs demands more than one time shot so u will need to combo out again (something wich 2 FOI are very usefull). also sb is a meta calling echoing truth is good in an ichorid meta, repeal for exmple in new combo drak depths, hydroblast for obvious already proven and explained early reasons, disrupt the same wipe way and twincast.

[Van Phanel]

I'm currently experimenting with several changes to the basic list because I want a list that is as close to perfect as possible.

That list was like that because every now and then we get a hand of 3 lands 3 untaps and a Brain Freeze or something similar and I wanted to decrease the possibility for that. While it worked out acceptable in that single tournament I wouldn't advise playing with only 2 Turnabout because even though they are annoying in multiples early on they are needed, especially for an early combo. Peer Through Depths is in fact good and a one-off is constantly moving in and out of my list at the moment.

This leads to the next important point which is the speeding up of the other decks. The most played Aggro-control deck (at least around here) is Merfolk, the aggrodecks kill on turn 4 consistently and combo is becoming more prevalent as well. In all those matchups Command sucks which is why I'm considering cutting them. Even though I'm still unsure this might be the way to go.

[Seraphus]

I'm currently experimenting with several changes to the basic list because I want a list that is as close to perfect as possible.

That list was like that because every now and then we get a hand of 3 lands 3 untaps and a Brain Freeze or something similar and I wanted to decrease the possibility for that. While it worked out acceptable in that single tournament I wouldn't advise playing with only 2 Turnabout because even though they are annoying in multiples early on they are needed, especially for an early combo. Peer Through Depths is in fact good and a one-off is constantly moving in and out of my list at the moment.

This leads to the next important point which is the speeding up of the other decks. The most played Aggro-control deck (at least around here) is Merfolk, the aggrodecks kill on turn 4 consistently and combo is becoming more prevalent as well. In all those matchups Command sucks which is why I'm considering cutting them. Even though I'm still unsure this might be the way to go.

sorry to disagree but cryptic doesn't sucks on merfolks matchup it facilitates the finishing part when u brainfreeze and don't use stroke. even more it draw a card or counter for example a stifle.

[TheyCallMeTim]

It's nice to see alot of people participating in the discussion. It helps develop the deck when we have a variety of people testing and posting results as opposed to simply making claims that one card sucks while another is better without any explanation to support such claims. With that said, I appreciate everyone's involvement in making my favorite deck a little better and I hope to chime in on the recent debates when I have a little more time to test and report back.

[flrn]

btw cryptic command is one of the best cards against zoo...

but you wont have that 4 mana to play that card. i dont know what the zoo players are doing in your meta, but they can kill you most of the time on their fourth turn, so if they are on the play you only have 3 mana to combo out. same goes for goblins, burn, goyfsligh and other aggro decks. that´s why cryptic command got cut in my list. because a lot of people are playing those decks in my meta. and against meerfolk it gets nasty. they have a slightly slower clock than those aggro decks, but on the other hand a nice disruption part. we dont wanna see cursecatcher, we dont wanna see stifle and standstill, force of will and daze are also bad for us. so we might have the mana here to play cryptic command in theory, but practically we have like 4-5 lands in play when we need to play it. by that moment the meerfolk guy should have enough stuff to handle it properly. and most of the time we are the guy which has to play cryptic command to keep him from killing us. at that moment we are most likely breaking his standstill, which gives him even more cards to handle it.

and i dont think we need to discuss cryptic command against tendril-based combo decks, which kill most of the time turn 2 or 3 or dredge decks with LED, which kill most of the time turn 1-3.

[ansset]

but you wont have that 4 mana to play that card. i dont know what the zoo players are doing in your meta, but they can kill you most of the time on their fourth turn, so if they are on the play you only have 3 mana to combo out. same goes for goblins, burn, goyfsligh and other aggro decks. that´s why cryptic command got cut in my list. because a lot of people are playing those decks in my meta. and against meerfolk it gets nasty. they have a slightly slower clock than those aggro decks, but on the other hand a nice disruption part. we dont wanna see cursecatcher, we dont wanna see stifle and standstill, force of will and daze are also bad for us. so we might have the mana here to play cryptic command in theory, but practically we have like 4-5 lands in play when we need to play it. by that moment the meerfolk guy should have enough stuff to handle it properly. and most of the time we are the guy which has to play cryptic command to keep him from killing us. at that moment we are most likely breaking his standstill, which gives him even more cards to handle it.

and i dont think we need to discuss cryptic command against tendril-based combo decks, which kill most of the time turn 2 or 3 or dredge decks with LED, which kill most of the time turn 1-3.

Completely agree with everything you just said. Note to the thread:

Are we discussing Cryptic Command's merits against aggro, or against Counterbalance?

Because if you really want to argue the merits of a 4cmc card against aggro in Legacy, good luck with that one. If you want to talk about its merits against Counterbalance, you might have a bit more luck with that, but I would rather just play Wipe Away. And really, Wipe Away is probably much better than Cryptic against aggro, since you can uncounterably bounce their lord that is letting them lethal you this turn, essentially cantripping, since you get to untap and draw another card. Really, try it out. This is coming from Gearhart, who gives not a damn about the deck, but with whom I have had more discussions about the deck than I care to admit.

[Silent Requiem]

I had not been going to post this here, because it was a very small tournament, but it has some Merfolk matches, which are under discussion.

***

Right, tournament report.

Turnout was not as good as I would have hoped, but that is perhaps not surprising given the conflict with another tournament.

We played four rounds of swiss, and the decks present were as follows:

Solidarity
Merfolk (x2)
Burn (x2)
Stax
White weenie
UW control

A very different meta from last month. My meta is in a lot of flux, as we have loads of new Legacy players experimenting with decks to find a favourite.

Round 1: Burn.

This matchup was against a guy in his first legacy tournament. His deck had not yet been optimized, but his sideboard was FULL of blue hate. I won both games, and we spent some time talking about the other decks he would face, and how very badly I did at my first Legacy tournament. Speaking to him at the end of the tournament, I learned that he had had a blast, and was eagerly awaiting the next tournament. Of course, he also plans to optimize his deck over the next little while.

Round 2: Merfolk.

This was always going to be a tough matchup for me. The pilot, Tom, is a really sharp player, and he "gets" aggro-control at an instinctive level. However, the deck gods had decided to torment me as well.

In game 1 I had to mulligan to 5 just to find a land. Nevertheless, I felt that I played my five card hand well, and was ready to go off in response to an attack for lethal. I nearly managed it, too, but 3 Force of Will in Tom's hand was just too much for me.

In game 2 I again had to mulligan to 5 to find a land, but I pulled a "perfect" hand. I had all the combo pieces, Force of Will, and one land. If I could topdeck 3 more lands before I died, I could win. Of course, guess what I didn't draw for the next five turns.

Round 3: White weenie.

This was our one non-local. My understanding is that he just happened to be in the area, and he won't be a regular.

Game 1, I let him beat me down to about 6 life before going off. Game 2, I feared Silence, but instead my opponent got mana screwed, letting me win fairly comfortably.

Round 4: Merfolk.

I was matched up against Andy in the final round. Now Andy was the only person to have won every match so far. If he beat me, he was the clear winner, but if I beat him then it would come down to tiebreakers. There was therefore a great deal of additional interest in my matchup.

Game 1: Things seemed to start off well, as he was mana screwed. He dropped a wasteland and a vial, and dropped a few beaters. However, when I tried to go off, I found that I was again facing a hand with 3 Force of Will. What is it with the fish people?

Game 2: He tried to just beat me down, but he did not draw enough counters and I decked him.

Game 3: This game was really intense. Everyone else had finished, and we had a large audience. Andy dropped standstill and started beating me down with Mutavaults. I tried to go off (just before he had lethal), and ran into a wall of counters: 2 Force of Will and 2 Mindbreak Traps. When I finished my abortive attempt I had a single card in hand (Cunning Wish) and a Flash of Insight in the graveyard.

My thought was that between FoI and Cunning Wish I could try and find a Meditate next turn and draw into something god-like. Andy only had a single card left in hand, and my spirits rose considerably when I top-decked a High Tide in the draw phase. I passed the turn and waited for the attack.

I was at 2 life, and Andy attacked with only one Mutavault. Technically, he did not need to do more than that, but the fact that left him 1U open made me pretty sure that he had a Daze in hand (he did). I cast High Tide, FoI into a Reset, and Wished for a Meditate. The Meditate let me draw Meditate, Twincast, FoW, and Impulse. After casting a Twincast Meditate (to draw 8), it was essentially over except for the formalities of actually decking him.

Results: Exhausted from my last match, I learned that my win had put be in third, Andy in second, and Tom in first. Tom was delighted, and very generously gave me £10 of the prize money, saying that it had been my win that had put him in the top spot. Needless to say, this made me feel far less upset about coming in third.

***

As you can see, there is not really a strong aggro presence in my meta, but Countertop does show up from time to time. For me, then, Cryptic Command makes sense. It is a flexible card, and I love having some maindeck bounce (useful against Stax and UW control, for example). Wipeaway is better bounce, but it is less flexible.

On the other hand, one of the reasons I did not run CC maindeck for a long time is because it is weak against fast decks, such as aggro or combo. In a meta based on fast decks, I would definitely take it back out. Even now, it often comes out games 2-3.

This was also my first time playing against the Mer. I had no problem playing around Cursecatcher, but I found that they packed loads of other counters. Definitely a tough matchup.

-Silent Requiem

[TheyCallMeTim]

Congrats Requiem on your favorable results.


On the other hand, one of the reasons I did not run CC maindeck for a long time is because it is weak against fast decks, such as aggro or combo. In a meta based on fast decks, I would definitely take it back out. Even now, it often comes out games 2-3.


if you really want to argue the merits of a 4cmc card against aggro in Legacy, good luck with that one. If you want to talk about its merits against Counterbalance, you might have a bit more luck with that, but I would rather just play Wipe Away

Perhaps surprisingly, I have yet to use Cryptic Command to bounce a Counterbalance. I typically use it as either "tap all creatures opponents control, draw a card" or "counter target spell, draw a card". Keep in mind that I rather enjoy it in this capacity, albeit it's relatively expensive casting cost.

With that said and in light of my recent Remand vs. Twincast discussions, I will play test the following list:

4 Brainstrom
4 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Twincast
2 Flash of Insight
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze

6 Fetchland
12 Island

________________
3 Disrupt
3 Hydroblast
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Hyrkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Ravenous Trap

For apparent reasons, this build should yield better gold fishing results. It is in a tournament environment when facing Aggro (less 'Fog' ability, although we still have Turnabout) and Counterbalance (less bounce ability, see Wipe Away) that we might run into issues with this build. Also note, I didn't post my sideboard for debate, but rather for reference as to what I play in my meta. The Hydroblasts should help in certain Aggro match ups and I have found Tolarian Winds to be quite useful.

[Seraphus]

it seams to me that everytime i write some post here i cause some catastrophic disaster... (for the miss spelling im sorry but for the meaning im not)

my metagame players are not sleeping or with some sort of mental issue btw...

so i will point by point explain why is it to me this list i choose to play the best one and my interpetation of every one card that have been taking some persons of (let just say) surprise...

Btw i m not gone post my sb and i already talk about it: (to remenber)

I am playing this list, because to many times i have turnabout and nothing to do with it, because cryptic does the job of tapping creature and peer of have a 5 impulse!
in my opinion sb is something that a player must "bet" on is personal ideas (but never exclude the core cards: stroke, meditate, turnabout and rebuild) for example i play the third brainfreeze in sb due to the fact that some matchs demands more than one time shot so u will need to combo out again (something wich 2 FOI are very usefull). also sb is a meta calling echoing truth is good in an ichorid meta, repeal for exmple in new combo drak depths, hydroblast for obvious already proven and explained early reasons, disrupt the same wipe way and twincast.

added note: i don't like mystical tutor to the fact that it demands card disavantage


continuing...

4 Brainstrom
3 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Flash of Insight
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
1 Peek
1 Peer Through Depths

4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island


why the only two turnabout?

its important (and the awser will come to the point if cryptic is or isn't good versus aggro decks) to look to the list. against zoo or goyfslight and other aggro deck solidarity doesnt need to have high counting mana floating probably its going to be used only 4-5 untap spells to untap lands and turnabout isnt that good or else cryptic (and every one is talking about cryptic converted mana cost) wouldnt suck. Cryptic effect is 2 effects for 4 cmc turnabout is 1 effect for 4 cmc. Cryptic tap all creatures (witch can finishing up the brainfreeze worcks) can draw (i hope that no one cames to ask why is that good), can counter (the letal fireblast or some fire spell on the stack and tap creatures) can bonce (little things called Grim lavamancer - lavamancer can kill us on upkeep phase if we are left with only two life- and canonist).
And again look at the decklist the remand on the fireblast kills it and make us draw and between remanding draw and the spell recast can occure a lot of things.
Many times we found that we r forced into wish sonner than in other matchs due to the fact of missing one piece of the combo (as Muse say it "our time is running out") then the stroke it's hardly played. btw an early remand on goyf (or big treat) is very well played (but with only two remands i think that is hard it apears...

The peer question...

the peer throught deepths arrives as a 5th impulse (sure impulse is better in early game but wizards says that only 4 cards of the same non basicland card is allowed, not my fault) it replaces the 4th remand due to a lot of times (as so happens with turnabout whitout any good target to it. Peer alow us to dig in early game to and in late game is ussefull to find high tide or some other piece. and as impulse it get ride of the crap we put on top after brainstorming...

peek is very good, solidarity can win games if peek hits the table like games against mono blue and other crap like that even fish (wich the secret is placed in how u play with the standstill on the table, for those who don't know it's secret from part of solidarity is the 1 mana cost spells that aren't high tide and remenber that everything it's instant).

for finishing im going to refering my self to the twincast main or sb question.
6 decks:
1-NAYA ZOO: twincast what? lightining hellix? (in my point of viewing is the best "twincastable" spell) it only kills the nacatl and kird ape sure and give us 3 life: remand stops some at end of turn spell and early treats

1 AGAINST

2- ANT STORM: 100% favor twincast orim chat is amanzing

1 A 1 F

3- ICHORID: i can´t think any card that is "twincastable" (sorry)

2A 1F

4- DISCARD DECKS LIKE EVA GREEN ETC...: u going to do it on what? vindicate? may be hym? what do he cares sure that confidant is already on table...

3A 1F

5- COUNTER DECKS COUNTER WAR: Great use amazing it works very well...

3A 2F

6- STOMPY OR STAX DECKS- real treats are artifacts some can be menaged by cryptic others no...

4A 2F...

BUT AS SOMEONE SAID EARLY THOSE O LIKE AND CAN PLAY WITH IT ON MAIN DO IT SO...

If someone what me to explain something more of my choises just ask...
gadly thanks

[TheyCallMeTim]

Why cut Turnabout for Cryptic Command when you can cut CC for Twincast? I read through your post and all points are certainly valid. Additionally, as I mentioned earlier, I too like the versatility of the card. However, Turnabout can be a great Swiss knife as well: (1) Untap my lands (2) Tap your creatures (3) Tap your land (4) Tap your artifacts. Meanwhile, the addition of Twincast gives us a number of things, first and foremost excellent card advantage as a copy of Meditate (should be added as an 'in favor' argument to ever conceivable match-up). While that's the draw side of Cryptic Command we can also copy a Counterspell (or the original targeted spell) and find bounce as a copy of Cunning Wish. This configuration of -2 CC, +2 Twincast (with 3 Turnabout) can do everything that the previous build can do and then some, and most of the time at a reduced casting cost. If you consider this slot as either Cryptic Command or Twincast and a Peek as a replacement for an Opt, what you've effectively done is taken the basic build and removed a Turnabout for a Peer Through Depths. The seems highly inadvisable to me.

[flrn]

Why cut Turnabout for Cryptic Command when you can cut CC for Twincast? I read through your post and all points are certainly valid. Additionally, as I mentioned earlier, I too like the versatility of the card. However, Turnabout can be a great Swiss knife as well: (1) Untap my lands (2) Tap your creatures (3) Tap your land (4) Tap your artifacts. Meanwhile, the addition of Twincast gives us a number of things, first and foremost excellent card advantage as a copy of Meditate (should be added as an 'in favor' argument to ever conceivable match-up). While that's the draw side of Cryptic Command we can also copy a Counterspell (or the original targeted spell) and find bounce as a copy of Cunning Wish. This configuration of -2 CC, +2 Twincast (with 3 Turnabout) can do everything that the previous build can do and then some, and most of the time at a reduced casting cost. If you consider this slot as either Cryptic Command or Twincast and a Peek as a replacement for an Opt, what you've effectively done is taken the basic build and removed a Turnabout for a Peer Through Depths. The seems highly inadvisable to me.

you can even twincast your own reset or turnabout, to have an additional untap-effect. remember, we only play instants. so we let the copy we made with twincast resolve, play our spells on the stack and when we´re out of mana we let the original resolve.

when i posted my last list i was talkin about how i was trying to improve my swarm aggro matchup with a very harsh list, without commands, twincasts and only 2 turnabouts. in the tourney i played with this setup i had to face countertop 2 times and wasnt able to find my wipe away postboard. i won one out of five matches due to the fact, that my opponent didnt find his top. i had to play through a balance with pridemage as topdeck. thank god the copies of brain freeze arent affected by the balance. i couldnt test the deck the way i wanted to, but if there´s a great tourney upcoming i wouldnt approve my last list.

[Silent Requiem]

This is a little off topic, but I would like the (Solidarity) community's opinion.

I'm a very goal oriented person, so I like to set progressively harder goals for myself to drive development. To this end, I resolved that I would put the title "Solidarity Novice" on my profile when I had a full deck of printed proxies (it simply marks the start of the journey, really), "Solidarity Apprentice" once I had completed my deck (indicates commitment to and investment in the deck), and "Solidarity Adept/Journeyman" once I had won a sanctioned tournament with the deck (indicates a certain level of competence). As you can see from my profile (and the sidebar of my posts), I have achieved this goal (it was in October).

Now, I wonder what reasonable goals are going forward. What requirements should I set myself for "Solidarity Master" or "Solidarity Grand Master". The latter should probably be nearly unattainable, such as winning a GP or similar, but "Solidarity Master" should probably be something less rarified.

So what milestones would you suggest? Are there other steps along the way that I should consider (ie, Solidarity Master Journeyman, etc).

-Silent Requiem

Edit: Looking at the DCI webpage, I thought that attaining a given title might mean achieving a certain rating (currently 1618), or a certain rank within my country or region (currently 6999/16319 Europe, 135/282 UK, 105/215 England). These are objective, and demonstrate certain levels of competence. But if I go this route, where should these benchmarks be set?

[cjva]

Silent Reqiuem:

Funny extras on your commitment to the deck. =)

I could see master to be something evolving around contributing to the community. (like this primer) evolving the deck and have it accepted in the community around solidarity (like van phanel and the introduction of cryptic command).

If you want to have something more around your game it might be.

Master - Winning a big sanctionated tournament (but not a GP) Somewhere in line of 70-100 players.

Grandmaster - the one who win with solidarity in madrid?

[Sevryn]

Hi, I would like to build a Solidarity deck for casual play that includes Frantic Search. Can anyone help me out, either by providing a list or discussing what to cut from current lists to make room for Frantic Search.

Thanks!

[Lejay]

Hi, I would like to build a Solidarity deck for casual play that includes Frantic Search. Can anyone help me out, either by providing a list or discussing what to cut from current lists to make room for Frantic Search.

Thanks!
I expect your post to be deleted soon, but before it is I can still give you an old high tide list I built with frantic search. My goal was to use drafna's restoration as an engine in a commons only deck.

// NAME : [Communes] Secret Kill Tide.
// CREATOR : LeJay (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT :
20 Island
4 Cloud of Faeries
1 Chromatic Star
3 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Brainstorm
1 Capsize
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Peer Through Depths
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Frantic Search
4 High Tide
4 Snap
1 Drafna's Restoration
3 Ponder
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Merchant Scroll
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 4 Mystic Remora
SB: 4 Disrupt
SB: 4 Gigadrowse

I just added ponders instead of sleight of hand, there may be other new cards to include.
Drafna's restoration is here to create a loop to reccur any spell with the baubles. This is because you can make infinite storm and mana with 4 tides played (you can play more than 4 in this deck) along the cloud of faeries/capsize combo. In first game since you can bounce all your opponent board and sculpt your hand with muddle the mixture for blasts and counters you just kill by attacking with cloud of faeries.

[Silent Requiem]

I have been thinking about this a great deal, as I am hoping Wizards gives me Frantic Search for Christmas (along with Land Tax; I have a playset of each ready to go).

It seems to me that Frantic Search is both draw and untap, so we could drop a little of each to fit the Search.

Turnabout is our least efficient untap, so I would probably drop one of that, possibly two. I would probably then drop a Remand for the third Search, as we will not need to stall for as long if we can manage to go off on turn 3.

The fourth search is more difficult, as I am tempted to put it in the sideboard. But the above changes are where I would start.

I would also seriously reconsider the merits of Opt vs Peek. Going off on turn 3 does not require as many land drops (where Opt shines), but will require tighter play around counters, which could make running multiple Peek the better choice.

I would also take a look at whether our new discard outlet could be abused. Clearly, Flash of Insight becomes easier to put in the graveyard, but perhaps there are other cards that are also worth considering (certain madness cards spring to mind).

Clearly, we will also have less time to assemble the combo, and although we have "more" draw and utap (in the sense that Frantic Search does both), we still only have 4 High Tide. It may be worth looking at some MD Tutors to ensure we get the Tides in a timely fashion, card disadvantage be damned.

Finally, I would reconsider the deck's mana curve. I love Cryptic Command, for example, but in a deck that might go off with only three lands in play, it may simply be too expensive for what it does. After all, with four lands and a High Tide in play you can Cryptic and then Turnabout (though this leaves you vulnerable to Daze, etc). On the other hand, with only three lands and a High Tide in play, you cannot Cryptic Command and then Frantic Search. This means that you need either a Reset or multiple untaps to cast a single spell.

Edit: On further consideration, until Frantic Search is unbanned, this is probably not the place to discuss the card. I will not post further on this topic (until an unbanning) and the mods should feel free to delete this post.

-Silent Requiem

[TheyCallMeTim]

when i posted my last list i was talkin about how i was trying to improve my swarm aggro matchup with a very harsh list, without commands, twincasts and only 2 turnabouts....
...i couldnt test the deck the way i wanted to, but if there´s a great tourney upcoming i wouldnt approve my last list.

What list are you currently playing/testing?

[Van Phanel]

What list are you currently playing/testing?

Second post on the previous page:


Mainboard:
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
1 Disrupt
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Opt
1 Peek
2 Peer Through Depths
3 Remand
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
1 Flooded Strand
12 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
1 Brain Freeze
3 Disrupt
2 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
3 Wipe Away

[TheyCallMeTim]

if there´s a great tourney upcoming i wouldnt approve my last list.

I mean a new build in place of that previous one. He was saying that 2 Turnabouts probably aren't enough, the list wasn't sufficient, etc.

[flrn]

actually, i didnt test another list yet. the next local tourney´s are in 2 weeks and until then im kinda busy with university. this is the last list i tested. sadly i dont have a clue yet, if its any good. what i can assure you is, that you shouldnt run it, if you expect a lot of balance players in your meta, because if you dont find wipe away postboard, games will be horrible for you.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I have tested my build of -2 Cryptic Command, +2 Twincast and am not sure I like the results. It has worked great but seems to lack depth and maybe resiliency but I am uncertain because I have only played solitaire. I will be playing in a small tourney tomorrow and want to settle on a decklist. What I am sure of is that I wanna run the Twins, just not what to remove for them. There are a few slots that are up for debate.

4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
4 Reset
2 Twincast
2 Flash of Insight
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta (Only other Island fetch I own)
13 Island

So, if you counted correctly, that's 62 cards. As mentioned earlier, I've tried it without Cryptic Command with mediocre results. Also, in my previous tournament report the build I top 4'd with was -1 Remand and -1 FOI (2 MD Commands). I've debated various combinations of these cards but have yet to decide which incarnation I am most comfortable with. Any input would be appreciated.

[Seraphus]

I have tested my build of -2 Cryptic Command, +2 Twincast and am not sure I like the results. It has worked great but seems to lack depth and maybe resiliency but I am uncertain because I have only played solitaire. I will be playing in a small tourney tomorrow and want to settle on a decklist. What I am sure of is that I wanna run the Twins, just not what to remove for them. There are a few slots that are up for debate.

4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
4 Reset
2 Twincast
2 Flash of Insight
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta (Only other Island fetch I own)
13 Island

So, if you counted correctly, that's 62 cards. As mentioned earlier, I've tried it without Cryptic Command with mediocre results. Also, in my previous tournament report the build I top 4'd with was -1 Remand and -1 FOI (2 MD Commands). I've debated various combinations of these cards but have yet to decide which incarnation I am most comfortable with. Any input would be appreciated.

u can try to play (as i am playing) with 2 turnabout if u already play twincast and cryptic... then keep the 61 crads version of the deck...

[flrn]

I have tested my build of -2 Cryptic Command, +2 Twincast and am not sure I like the results. It has worked great but seems to lack depth and maybe resiliency but I am uncertain because I have only played solitaire. I will be playing in a small tourney tomorrow and want to settle on a decklist. What I am sure of is that I wanna run the Twins, just not what to remove for them. There are a few slots that are up for debate.

4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
4 Reset
2 Twincast
2 Flash of Insight
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta (Only other Island fetch I own)
13 Island

So, if you counted correctly, that's 62 cards. As mentioned earlier, I've tried it without Cryptic Command with mediocre results. Also, in my previous tournament report the build I top 4'd with was -1 Remand and -1 FOI (2 MD Commands). I've debated various combinations of these cards but have yet to decide which incarnation I am most comfortable with. Any input would be appreciated.

i would put 1 of the 2 freeze´s into the board and cut 1 opt, if you really wanna keep the commands.

[Tacosnape]

Why is everyone so insistent on running Flash of Insight? From someone who picked this deck up about a week after it was first posted, Flash is just bad with Cunning Wish not being able to grab cards you exile with it anymore.

Also, why is nobody running Spell Pierce in sideboard? It's been fantastic for me, packing four, as it solves nearly every single large problem the deck will run into - Discard, Countermagic, opposing Combo decks, Chalice/Trinisphere, Counterbalance, etc. Doesn't stop Teeg/Mage/Canonist, but Cunning Wish for bounce does that just fine.

Also, Twincast: It's great when it's good and subpar when it isn't. It's fantastic against Ad Nauseaum storm combo, as you can Twincast Chants -or- Ad Nauseum itself, resulting in either a timewalk or a high chance at a win, given that you can go pretty low on the Ad Nauseum and need either only a Force or the means to win with their copy still on the stack. You can also still hijack the Ill-Gotten Gains loop.

Here's my list.

2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
12 Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
2 Peer Through Depths
1 Twincast
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
2 Brain Freeze

SB:
4 Spell Pierce
1 Twincast
1 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Ravenous Trap

[Seraphus]

who thinks peek is necessary (please arguement about your chooice)? (lets vote looool)

[ScatmanX]

who thinks peek is necessary (please arguement about your chooice)? (lets vote looool)

I think it is great agains't Control, but not really necessary.

Another one: Who thinks capitalization is necessary?
I do.

[Tacosnape]

Peek is weak. Here's why.

1. A good Solidarity player can go off against a slow control deck regardless.
2. Peek is terrible against aggro or any decks that just race you.
3. Peek does nothing to actually stop any disruptive permanents from hitting play.
4. Peek does nothing to actually stop disruption from stopping your combo.
5. Peek doesn't actually give you any filtration. It just replaces itself.

Therefore, I'd rather get a little bit better card filtration in Opt, smooth out my early game land drops, and be able to dig one card deeper if I have to combo out in a less than comfortable situation.

[Seraphus]

btw tacosnape i forget to explain my point of view about the spell pierce: mid combo it sucks do to the lack of draw compare to disrupt, this is the downside of spell pierce non-draw...

[cjva]

I for one love Peek. In Peek i find everything that i want from a card. I get information, and i get to draw a card.

Regarding Flash of Insight. I have never been disapointed with it. Playing it from the yard, its practicly a blue instant demonic tutor for 2. How can such a card be bad?

[Glorfindel]

Why is everyone so insistent on running Flash of Insight? From someone who picked this deck up about a week after it was first posted, Flash is just bad with Cunning Wish not being able to grab cards you exile with it anymore.
As cjva explains, it is used to tutor things from your library, not to recast cards that are already in your graveyard. Of course, that was a possibility before M10, but you really don't need it.

[deviant]

In other words: It's good when you're already playing lots of blue spells.

I usually am either winning a lot when this happens, or just untapping my lands for infi mana and not having a card draw, in the latter case FoI is really good practically stating "you win". However, if I had been playing an actually good card in it's place, I might have not gotten into this situation.

M10 really made the card a lot worse, it might still be a good option, just way way worse than it used to be and now FoI actually is no longer an auto-include. You play it, you justify it.
Personally, my Soli has been 56 cards for ages..

[cjva]

Playing alot of blue spells you will do everytime you dont get mana screw. Mono-u with lots of Cantrips tend to do that.

What do you play instead of FoI?

The biggest reason to run FoI acording to me is that it get you your untap when you need it, your card draw when you need it or your wincard when you need it. The only card that i feel i could play over FoI is Frantic Search.

[Silent Requiem]

Another issue that is often overlooked is that FoI is our only source of card advantage outside of Meditate (and, I suppose, casting Stroke of Genius on yourself, which, given that it is in the Wishboard, is both card and mana intensive).

Everytime that Opt, Remand, Cryptic Command, Disrupt, etc replaces itself with a land midcombo, we have lost a card. Every time we cast Reset, Turnabout, or High Tide, we have lost a card. FoI is one of our few ways to replenish a depleted hand.

This, combined with it's search function, makes it a very valuable card, despite the M10 "nerf".

-Silent Requiem

[TheyCallMeTim]

FoI is one of our few ways to replenish a depleted hand.

As does Twincasting your Meditate, if you play it. And the Tolarian Winds that no one other than myself run in their wish boards. However, it's 'tutor' potential that others have mentioned in the only reason I still run FOI as a 1-of.

[Seraphus]

As does Twincasting your Meditate, if you play it. And the Tolarian Winds that no one other than myself run in their wish boards. However, it's 'tutor' potential that others have mentioned in the only reason I still run FOI as a 1-of.

2 cards r more dificult to get well than one card capable of replay (flashback)... and the falsh of insight is a non-bad trade tutor (when played if counter u can flashback it, when flashbacked is not a card dissavantage...) and in counter wars twincast can be beat by spell snare counter balance and etc that foi doesn´t...

solidarity sb slots are one of the most important things and: 15 slots all need to be very well diserved.
if u use wish for card draw due to the lack of hand u don't fetch for tolarian u fetch for meditate so what is the point of having two card to produce draw if the lack of slots in thiss deck is very tight?

Verbal warning for terrible posting quality. Next one will be a full warning. Three warnings = site ban. Step it up. - Bardo

[TheyCallMeTim]

if u use wish for card draw due to the lack of hand u don't fetch for tolarian u fetch for meditate so what is the point of having two card to produce draw if the lack of slots in this deck is very tight?

You have never fizzled after Wishing for a Meditate? Have you also never drawn 3 islands and a FOW off of a Meditate? Have you ever had a hand that only held a Cunning Wish in addition to numerous dead cards? Ask yourself these questions while playing and you might find that you too would benefit from Tolarian Winds once in a while. I looked for your sideboard in the past few pages but couldn't find it. Here's mine, do you propose cutting Winds for another bounce spell? I haven't had any issue against Counterbalance with this build.

3 Disrupt
3 Hydroblast
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Hyrkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Ravenous Trap

[Lejay]

Does this deck really need opts ?
It seems playing main deck spell pierce would be really strong against the most problematic match-ups and really bad in easy match-ups.

[Seraphus]

You have never fizzled after Wishing for a Meditate? Have you also never drawn 3 islands and a FOW off of a Meditate? Have you ever had a hand that only held a Cunning Wish in addition to numerous dead cards? Ask yourself these questions while playing and you might find that you too would benefit from Tolarian Winds once in a while. I looked for your sideboard in the past few pages but couldn't find it. Here's mine, do you propose cutting Winds for another bounce spell? I haven't had any issue against Counterbalance with this build.

3 Disrupt
3 Hydroblast
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Hyrkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Ravenous Trap

i understand the concept of the tolarian winds that u mention but the problematic point here is not if tolarian winds in certains matchs r good the problematic is sb free slots...
regarding ur sb (i post early my general opinion on solidarity's sb around page 28 or something): first the core sb cards -meditate; stroke; turnabout- is as usual right, but then u use Hurkyl's Recall instead of Rebuild witch is a mistake due to the fact that almost (95%) chalices will hit the table with 1 and 2 counters... ravenous trap is open to discussin but i think 2 or 3 echoing truth are better and versitily than 1 ravenous trap or even the single chain of vapor btw... disrupt and hydroblast are demandatory (the amount of thouse is a meta call)... u should run more wipe way since merfolks are now fashionable (bounce the lords and see how they loose the fast clock)...
and i don't like the card dissavantge of mystical tutor...

so i will do this sb:

3 echoing truth;
1 meditate;
1 stroke of genius;
1 turnabout;
1 rebuild;
2 wipe way;
3 disrupt;
3 hydroblast.

[TheyCallMeTim]

u use Hurkyl's Recall instead of Rebuild witch is a mistake due to the fact that almost (95%) chalices will hit the table with 1 and 2 counters...

I actually still play Rebuild but plan on running Hurkyl's because I'd rather have the lower cost than worry about Chalice. By the time it's played for 2 (4 mana) I should have no problem answering it, most likely with a counter. Additionally, the anti-artifact targets in my meta are Stax and Aggro builds.


ravenous trap is open to discussin but i think 2 or 3 echoing truth are better and versitily than 1 ravenous trap or even the single chain of vapor

Ok, so 2 Truths and 1 Trap. My worst match up is Dredge and it is quite common in my meta. Also, see lower casting cost argument.



u should run more wipe way since merfolks are now fashionable (bounce the lords and see how they loose the fast clock)...

No Merfolk in my meta and have yet to actually get a Wipe Away with Cunning Wish.


and i don't like the card dissavantge of mystical tutor...

Me neither, but the trade off of card advantage for card quality is frequently worth it.

So there's my reasoning behind the cards in my sideboard. Do you care to answer any questions I proposed regarding Tolarian Winds?

[Seraphus]

I would answer all your questions regarding my opinion on Tolarian Winds...

Regarding Rebuild vs Hurkyll's - Stax can make Chalice for 2 hit the table on the second turn... if you play Remand good, but otherwise ...

The Wipe Away isn't to be wished for, it is to be sided in game 2 aganist Merfolk (and if you want to be more radical, also the Echoing Truth).

I agree with 2 Echoing Truth you could take out the Chain of Vapor and the Tolarian Winds leaving the trap...

Mystical Tutor: I don't like it... I prefer hate spells against some matches than it...

Your posting record is atrocious. Proper grammar and spelling are required on this site. This is not AIM. Clean up your posting habits, begin to use proper grammar, and run a spell check before you post, or you will soon find yourself without the ability to post at all. Infraction issued. ~ Nightmare

[TheyCallMeTim]

The Wipe Away isn't to be wished for, it is to be sided in game 2 aganist Merfolk

I'm not a fan of siding things in, I typically find it difficult when boarding Disrupt or Hydoblast (usually involves a combination of Opt and Brainstorm). My logic is that if 3 Main Deck slots are to be used (also very important slots) for Cunning Wish, I should try to maximize them. What happens when you board in Wipe Away or Echoing Truth and never draw them? Or worse, run out of cantrips and fizzle?

[Tacosnape]

Does this deck really need opts ?

Are you serious? Opt is one of the best cards in this deck. The answer is yes.

[Seraphus]

if my posts aren't understandable kick me out now!!!

no one until now complain about my bad spelling so good luck to u all, i was thinking that i was giving something to the community that play solidarity but i
was mistakened... like if spelling Chain of Vapor is totaly diferent from Chain of vapor...

TheyCallMeTim -i am sorry, but it seams to me that our debate is canceled, if u want to debate more of solidarity share lists and strategy tell me and i send u a pm with my email...

Good luck to u all...

If we were the kind of site that frequently banned users for one offense, there would be far fewer members on this site. You are given three strikes. Use them however you wish. No one is questioning your contributions, just the manner in which you present them. There are rules on this site, and you are expected to follow them. Continuing to do otherwise will result in you being unable to participate. Very few others on the site have found that too much to ask. ~ Nightmare

[ScatmanX]

I have:

Another one: Who thinks capitalization is necessary?
I do.

Trap: 1 Trap in the SB is enough. It don't use too much space, you can tutor for it agains't Dreadge, or sometimes agains't Agroo Loam, which is nice, and is good agains't other combo decks (Igg), if you can counter the Chant effects.

[Vacrix]

Hey guys, just picked up Solidarity out of curiosity and I like it a lot.


3 Disrupt
3 Hydroblast
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Hyrkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Ravenous Trap

Why hydroblasts? You use them to counter REB's or something? And also, mystical tutor? What is your target usually?


Also, it has to be played on your turn, but I've always liked it:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4478

Ancestral Knowledge 1U
Enchantment
Cumulative Upkeep 1
When Ancestral Knowledge enters the battlefield, look at the top ten cards of your library, then exile any number of them and put the rest back on top of your library in any order.
When Ancestral Knowledge leaves the battlefield, shuffle your library.

I haven't tested it in solidarity yet, but it digs you 10 cards deep, you can brainstorm or impulse into what you want before you have to pay the upkeep, or pay the upkeep, finding brainstorm then brainstorm away what you dont want, and the deck shuffles. You can also remove random land too if you already have like 5 or 6 (when you really dont need to draw more). I played it in dreamhalls.dec a while back and it was MVP. I can imagine it would enable you to find the trinity (high tide, reset, meditate) or even just doubles of shit, cunning wish for a problem hate bearer, protection spell, etc. It doesn't net you a card, but hey it does dig you 10 cards deep. Also, for the same mana you could play Lim-Dul's vault (and at instant speed). Has a black splash been tested? You get pretty good protection post board against control too while you are setting up. Lim-duls vault to me looks like a good flash of insight (I like flashbacking it but sometimes you just don't have the mana to make it work the first time). The only draw back I see in LDV is that it makes you lose life. I've only been gold fishing solidarity to get a hold of it right now so I don't know if it can handle LDV life loss. Ancestral Knowledge might be better in that case, but then again it may not be good at all when you can just brainstorm + impulse. Thoughts?

[Piceli89]

Hey guys, just picked up Solidarity out of curiosity and I like it a lot.



Why hydroblasts? You use them to counter REB's or something? And also, mystical tutor? What is your target usually?



I'm no Solidarity expert at all, but I'll attempt to answer your questions. Hydroblasts are there mainly to combat aggro like Goblins or, in lesser part, Burn spells from Zoo, which can seal the deal before Solidarity reaches the critical "combo-turn". Modern aggros have become so fast that they're able to handle this deck in speed, so adding some protection can prevent from nasty things like t1 lackey, t2--> drop the world and from damage shenanigans.
But still, I dunno if modern Solidarity builds still pack those.
Mystical tutor, as Van Phanel said some posts ago, should be to accelerate the odds of getting High tide against aggro, so it basically serves as a fifth high tide. However, it's not bad at all in getting you the missing pieces to start off the combo.

For the second question:



Also, it has to be played on your turn, but I've always liked it:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4478

Ancestral Knowledge 1U
Enchantment

[Seraphus]

Vacrix welcome to the group of solidarity players,

The Ancestral knowledge isn't playable due to the fact that it's an Enchantment, and solidarity is also called by instant speed deck, by other words it only runs instants (and lands) that is why it's so versatile...
The Mystical Tutor on sb is very debated around here (i don't like it do to is card disavantaged factor) - u can see, before the intervention of bad spelling/expulsion, my point of view and debating about it.

The lim-dul question: another color makes the deck vunerable to wasteland and stifle (when fetching for another color)...
You have some up to date decklists in (if im not mistaken) page 28 or 29...

i hope i could help you...

[TheyCallMeTim]

Thank you Seraphus for working on your capitalization. I hope you decide to stick around and put in the little bit of effort required to keep the Moderators happy. The rules are in place for everyone to follow so that The Source can be a quality reference for Magic players around the world. Unfortunately, most of us are in the North Eastern portion of the United States and English is our native language. We don't intend to exclude people, just to compile intellectual strategic discussions that anyone (able to speak English) can follow. Thank you for you contributions thus far and please continue to support our conversation.

With that said,welcome Vecrix. I hope you find these boards as helpful as I have. We have discussed many permanents in the past and have found countless times that any non-instant card is detrimental to our combo. You should find this to be accurate through your own testing when you encounter lands during combo-ing.

On the other topics of discussion:

Opt is necessary because the deck's goal in to continue drawing cards in order to reach a storm count high enough for a lethal Brainfreeze. It could possibly be replaced by other 'cantrips' such as Peek.

I also feel that Ravenous Trap can be run as a Wish target. It is effectively free to cast and attainable anytime you are able to cast Cunning Wish.

[Vacrix]

Opt is necessary because the deck's goal in to continue drawing cards in order to reach a storm count high enough for a lethal Brainfreeze. It could possibly be replaced by other 'cantrips' such as Peek.

I also feel that Ravenous Trap can be run as a Wish target. It is effectively free to cast and attainable anytime you are able to cast Cunning Wish.

Opt is pretty good. Too bad there isn't anything better. I might try a 2/2 split between peek and opt. Opt is good but how often is the card filtering relevant? Knowing info about your opponents hand seems important pretty important too, especially if you can go off now without protection when you know the opponent doesn't have protection.


Just throwing some ideas out there...Vision Charm. Especially against mono color, its a remand (without draw a card) for U instead of 1U. They can't play anything when you change their forests into swamps. It doesn't have the upside that remand has that you can draw a card but it does delay so you can hit your land drops, and sculpt your hand.

Also it has other utilities like being able to get rid of what ANT's mystical tutor just searched for, as well as phasing out artifacts like trinisphere/thorn of amethyst/cannonist so you can go off; however, it can't phase out chalice at 1 (but it can at 2) or bounce teeg.



The lim-dul question: another color makes the deck vunerable to wasteland and stifle (when fetching for another color)...
You have some up to date decklists in (if im not mistaken) page 28 or 29...

Well the list I found a few pages back already played fetches (too interact with brainstorm I'm sure) so Stifle is already a problem sometimes. As for vault, yea i guess that could cause problems. The upside is LDV is really good, provided you have enough life to cantrip into what you want.

Also:
Insidious Dreams
We already draw a lot of land, and all it calls for is for you to fetch 1 Underground Sea while going off. It ensures that you can discard all your extra land to find something relevant, brainstorm into meditate, draw all the stuff you searched for and keep going.

Black also lets you play discard against control. Even if its on your turn, you take some time to set up anyway.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Opt is pretty good. Too bad there isn't anything better. I might try a 2/2 split between peek and opt. Opt is good but how often is the card filtering relevant?

I have found the card filtering to be quite relevant, whether it's early turn land drops or finding key cards.

[Seraphus]

I'm not a fan of siding things in, I typically find it difficult when boarding Disrupt or Hydoblast (usually involves a combination of Opt and Brainstorm). My logic is that if 3 Main Deck slots are to be used (also very important slots) for Cunning Wish, I should try to maximize them. What happens when you board in Wipe Away or Echoing Truth and never draw them? Or worse, run out of cantrips and fizzle?

I taught about repeal but it can be countered...
Resulting from the debate of sb what do you think about:

2 disrupt
3 hydroblast
2 echoing truth
1 ravenous trap
1 rebuild
1 meditate
1 stroke of genius
2 wipe away
1 twincast (1 already on main board).

regarding miss spelling and thanks btw for your message i'll do my best until someone kicks me out :tongue:

[flrn]

I dislike playing Hydroblasts in the board, because they dont draw you any cards or untap your lands. If you draw them midcombo and you rely on another drawspell/cantrip they are simply so freakin bad. Apart from that it kinda looks my current sideboard. I got 14 cards settled and 1 free spot to test cards in it. My current sideboard looks like this:

1 Brain Freeze
3 Disrupt
2 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
3 Wipe Away

That´s 14 cards. I´m also only playing 1 Brain Freeze in my main board. The 15th Slot is currently taken by Ravenous Trap, but i´m not quite sure about this card. I lately got the feeling that it could be too slow against dredge, but it´s also good against all decks, which pack loam.

[Seraphus]

2 disrupt
3 hydroblast
2 echoing truth
1 ravenous trap
1 rebuild
1 meditate
1 stroke of genius
2 wipe away
1 twincast (1 already on main board).
SORRY (LOL) I FORGET -1 Brain freeze (i run 2 in mainboard and i like the results it's easier to multi-comboing or multi-miling).

I actually play only 2 Hydroblast in my actual sb, and instead of it i play or the 3th wipe away or 1 repeal...
But now since next level dredge (dredge with Bloodghast) - wich i never had played against until last week because the dregde players in my meta only play the "classic version" and entomb is kicking the field in some parts of Europe, i think that a second trap for a metagame like those in GPs is actually a good plan... loam decks are really a problem as also raven's crime which can be a pain in the ass to...

so summing up:

2 hydroblast
2 disrupt
2 echoing truth
2 ravenous trap
1 rebuild
1 meditate
1 stoke of genius
2 wipe away
1 twincast
1 brain freeze.

[ScatmanX]

Black also lets you play discard against control. Even if its on your turn, you take some time to set up anyway.

Discard is not good agains't Control. If you were to do something about control with a splash, Orim's Chant would be the way to go.
That said, I don't think cards agains't control are good, because you have a lot of time to set up agains't them, so you can sculpt into your best hand.
Twincast and Remand are already very good agains't them.

[flrn]

I dont see the point of including Hydroblasts. Cant think of a matchup where i would like to board those.

[lebarion]

I dont see the point of including Hydroblasts. Cant think of a matchup where i would like to board those.

In spite of what many people say, the Goblins matchup isn't a bye. The same can be said about Burn and Zoo. Hydroblast helps a lot against the first two, and a little bit against the former.

[Seraphus]

Burn and goblins are really hard match (at least the few times i encounter it)...
Burn clock is faster than goblins... Remand helps but doesn't make it easy...

[Mikeleroi]

I have played against both... and they don´t seem so hard.

Against burn you can wait until turn 3rd-4th, fow the fireblast and then try to combo. Ok, there are times we are going to fizzle, but that´s something we already know.

And against goblins, it just depends if you have fow for the turn1 lackey. If they don´t start with this play, it is so hard (for them) to achieve a turn 4 kill.

[flrn]

When i board against Zoo/Goblins, i board 1 Mystical Tutor (to have a 5th High Tide or to find other combo pieces faster), both Echoing Truth to slow them down (can be a Timewalk if played nicely) and the Brain Freeze to be able to find it faster in my deck, so i dont have to wish for it or to play it 2 Times, if i find it 2 Times in the combo.

Against Burn, i dont board the Echoing Truth, but the 3 Disrupts, which allow me to counter some of their spells.

I dont see any need to include Hydroblasts. They dont draw you cards, they dont untap our lands and they dont find us any combo pieces. And Echoing Truth is much more flexible than Hydroblasts in terms of slowing aggressive decks down.

The point is we know that we have to combo out on turn 3 or 4 against those decks, even with Hydroblasts, so we should concentrate on finding combo pieces early on, to do so. And if Goblins are on the play against you, you really should have a FoW for their lackey.

What im basically saying is, that you shouldnt waste your precious sideboard spots on Hydroblasts. I tried different builds in my sideboard, but i always ended up with those 14 cards +x.

1 Brain Freeze
3 Disrupt
2 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
3 Wipe Away

Try it and see for yourself. If you need explanations, feel free to ask. And if there is a great tourney upcoming, i wouldnt attend without 3 Wipe Away´s in the board, because you will need em against Counterbalance.

[Darkenslight]

Looking at the filtering options, we're limited to Read the Runes, Catalog, Pulse of the Grid and Thirst, with unlikelies in Compulsion, Mental Discipline and Sift.

Filtering is poor outside of Enchantments.

EDIT: Would it be possible to use Sapphire Medallions to cheapen most of the spells in the deck?

[jjjoness']

Would it be possible to use Sapphire Medallions to cheapen most of the spells in the deck?

No. It's a dead card midcombo which makes it suck balls. And srsly how often do you fizzle/whatever because you don't have enough mana? You're much more likely to fizzle due to bad topdecks. Plus it doesn't make Brainstorm, Turnabout, Tide, Opt and Twincast any cheaper.

[Seraphus]

hi there please everyone lets make a metal note just for a second here: Solidarity = ONLY INSTANT SPELL CARDS AND LAND CARDS.
Spring tide ( a little bit different deck): It Includes creatures sorcerys and other spells...

Btw one of my last posts includes a sb version with 2 traps its actually only one, turning that version into:

2 hydroblast
2 disrupt
2 echoing truth
1 ravenous trap
1 rebuild
1 meditate
1 stoke of genius
2 wipe away
1 twincast
1 brain freeze
1 turnabout.

[Forbiddian]

In spite of what many people say, the Goblins matchup isn't a bye. The same can be said about Burn and Zoo. Hydroblast helps a lot against the first two, and a little bit against the former.

If this is true, why would anybody play Solidarity? Not to say that you're wrong about the matchups against Red, but if you could get similar numbers out of red decks as ANT, then why are you playing Solidarity?

[Bahamuth]

If this is true, why would anybody play Solidarity? Not to say that you're wrong about the matchups against Red, but if you could get similar numbers out of red decks as ANT, then why are you playing Solidarity?

You're right, there is no reason at all right now to play Solidarity. DDANT puts up better numbers against pretty much any deck.

[Seraphus]

If this is true, why would anybody play Solidarity? Not to say that you're wrong about the matchups against Red, but if you could get similar numbers out of red decks as ANT, then why are you playing Solidarity?

The match up against red deck or goblins is a bit hard but believe when i say hydroblast (+ disrupt in the matches against burn red deck) make the difference and real makes the score turn to solidaritys side... The first 2 turns those versions with Sparks Elemental, are the only versions that makes the level balance because you can't spend the disrupt only the Remands, and btw in my opinion, the deck becomes slower when boarded with Pyrostatic Pillar... So by my calculations the clock becomes slower and solidarity becomes stronger... ANT isn't that good against red deck when it's not capable of turn 1 or 2 kill as for solidarity and due to is incredible amount of digging and drawing, it modify it "behavior" to go along with it...
About goblins, this one is hard, but, it can be solved, i personally think that by putting results into percentage the result is around 60% (Soli.)-40% (Goblins) match - and in this case - Ant takes the lead because a think it makes the run faster to Goblins - and goblins can't do much damage until turn 3-4 and they just can't run at that speed (lol). Summing it up, about goblins, the match is balance at first after that not so balanced...

[cjva]

Forbiddian: The main reason to play soliddarity is that it rewards people who play good, and is very punishing to people who dont.

My experience with the deck is that wont give you any match up for free (considering dtb), but you will have a shoot in all of them. The closest thing i'v come to an auto-loss is Ichorid when they dredge good and have a good pilot.

And people, please, please, please, starting to talk about sorcerys, enchantments, creatures and artifacts in the solidarity thread only makes you look stupid. It will generate a totaly different deck, so either use the apropriate thread (spring tide for example), start a new thread, or just dont post.

[Seraphus]

I finish an hour ago a tournament and i just want to say: i hate solidarity (but just for an hour or maybe two until the idea of flames plus paper from magic cards flee my mind).
Every single game a play (not some or almost everyone) i only play 3 islands per game!! GOD!!!!!

I don´t know WTF was that... :mad: :cry:

At some point i play impulse twice (eot one and other one my turn) and NO FU**ING Land!!!!!!

(For those who are think on how many lands i play: 18, 6 fetchs and 12 islands)...

[cjva]

I'v had the same problem. My solution was 1 more fetch. Easier to find land early, and fetching away so it doesnt impact combo.

To bad with landscrew thou.

[Seraphus]

Btw people a new treat is appearing on the horizon (lol today im a little bit poetic): entomb Iona (with FOW)...

[cjva]

Btw people a new treat is appearing on the horizon (lol today im a little bit poetic): entomb Iona (with FOW)...

I don't know if i consider Entomb/Iona to be a worse matchup that counter/top.

If they get to assemble their combo they pretty much to the same thing. If Iona hits the table, naming Blue we are dead. But its pretty much the same thing as if Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top does the same.

The big difference between the decks is that Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top are far better without their follower then Entomb and Exhume/Reanimate.

We are also (i guess, only played the match up a couple of times) more likely to get more time to build up, compared to Counterbalance/Top. Top helps them find CB, and CB alone still does some nasty things against us.Where Iona needs time to find both their combo pieces in order to do any harm. We can hopefully just go of in response to their reanimation.

So yes, its a hard match up, but i would be happy if people switch from CB/top to Iona-reanimate. From a Solidarity perspective.

[Seraphus]

I don't know if i consider Entomb/Iona to be a worse matchup that counter/top.

If they get to assemble their combo they pretty much to the same thing. If Iona hits the table, naming Blue we are dead. But its pretty much the same thing as if Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top does the same.

The big difference between the decks is that Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top are far better without their follower then Entomb and Exhume/Reanimate.

We are also (i guess, only played the match up a couple of times) more likely to get more time to build up, compared to Counterbalance/Top. Top helps them find CB, and CB alone still does some nasty things against us.Where Iona needs time to find both their combo pieces in order to do any harm. We can hopefully just go of in response to their reanimation.

So yes, its a hard match up, but i would be happy if people switch from CB/top to Iona-reanimate. From a Solidarity perspective.

WOWWW i prefer 100000000000 times counterbalanced decks then Iona reanimate! They protect their combo they simply have a faster clock - turn 1 Iona (dark ritual entomb exhume/animate dead/reanimate) protected by FOW or and duress meaning that our FOW can be discarded turn 1 and turn 2 combo out and we say: bye-bye (for those who like the capitalization and etc FOW means: Force of Will) - this is my opinion resulted by long playtesting against it...

[cjva]

How likely are turn 1 Iona?

1 Dark ritual (out of 4) ~40% chance.
1 Entomb (out of 4) ~40% chance.
1 reanimate (out of, 8? 12?) lets make it easy for us, and say that they always have a reanimationspell on hand.

Its still like ~16% chance for a turn 1 Iona. Add Fow to that and we are down to roughly 6.5% chance of them having turn 1 Iona with FoW-protection.

How high is Entomb/Ionas blue count? We could mess up this calcs with adding that to the calculations, but i think you get my point.

When i talked about a more controllish Iona deck i was actually thinking about the worst kind of deck they could build against us from that base. a more comboish Iona i think we could have a decent match up against, like ANT and other combodecks.

[Seraphus]

Probably but regarding the comparability between ANT and Iona entomb is the interaction between force/orim's or Silence/ twincast.

[cjva]

Probably but regarding the comparability between ANT and Iona entomb is the interaction between force/orim's or Silence/ twincast.

I didn't compare the combos with eachother, i just used ANT as an example of a combodeck. I have found that solidarity has a pretty good match up against other combodecks.

[Seraphus]

I didn't compare the combos with eachother, i just used ANT as an example of a combodeck. I have found that solidarity has a pretty good match up against other combodecks.

With the exception (and excluding the matter in debate - reanimate) of dredge...

[cjva]

With the exception (and excluding the matter in debate - reanimate) of dredge...

yea, ofc. Dredge is the closest thing we come to an auto-loss.

[Seraphus]

i think Madrid will be full of dredge (and next level dredge) counting of course that worldwake (witch is already being spoilered) gives some new bomb to the metagame...

[Seraphus]

I want to give a tip here to those who play in a meta with merfolks zoo and etc, agro meta, go to the gatherer page and think about this: Champion's Victory

[Seraphus]

LOL i miss read the card...

It seams that after todays monumental failure, i should withdraw and rest about improvement of the deck for a day or two...

:frown:

[herbig]

I want to give a tip here to those who play in a meta with merfolks zoo and etc, agro meta, go to the gatherer page and think about this: Champion's Victory

?

[Seraphus]

?

i miss read the card sorry

[Vacrix]

yea, ofc. Dredge is the closest thing we come to an auto-loss.

I haven't run into it yet in my testing but how does Solidarity deal with discard.dec? Its not seen too often but black aggro (ie. suicide black) looks like it could kick the shit out of us. Duress isn't happy. Neither is hymn, and sinkhole can give us mana problems. I'd imagine spell pierce/disrupt helps but it looks difficult, especially if they get hippie down. I'd think that mystical tutor would be particularly good in this matchup via, play it in response to discard, find high tide, put it on top, protecting it from discard. Brainstorms would then work in a similar fashion.

[Seraphus]

I haven't run into it yet in my testing but how does Solidarity deal with discard.dec? Its not seen too often but black aggro (ie. suicide black) looks like it could kick the shit out of us. Duress isn't happy. Neither is hymn, and sinkhole can give us mana problems. I'd imagine spell pierce/disrupt helps but it looks difficult, especially if they get hippie down. I'd think that mystical tutor would be particularly good in this matchup via, play it in response to discard, find high tide, put it on top, protecting it from discard. Brainstorms would then work in a similar fashion.

The discard match (whatever it may be) is around either we have the right 3 pieces at turn 4 (or land drop 4) - meditate, hight tide and reset or another meditate hoping the first one gives us the reset - or the use of Meditate out o combo.

Spell pierce: please stop trying to fit in the card it sucks because it doesn't drawback! But more specific in the discard matches it sucks even more, solidarity need to filter cards, fill the grave with spells and keep the hand full so it can combo out and use flash of insight well - and leaving FoI out of the deck means or you don't understand the deck at all or you really don't understand the deck.

Btw the Flash of insight is very useful card against discard decks...

You are right about brainstorm, but against Hym to tourach, i think it just a let it play situation a see what i can do with the cards that left...
Land destruction, like sinkhole, can be dealt with counters, remand real do a good job here. And to conclude, sometimes the Confidant can work better then the blasting start: ritual - duress- hym.

Summing all up: hard match up but there are harder matches...

[Vacrix]

The discard match (whatever it may be) is around either we have the right 3 pieces at turn 4 (or land drop 4) - meditate, hight tide and reset or another meditate hoping the first one gives us the reset - or the use of Meditate out o combo.

Spell pierce: please stop trying to fit in the card it sucks because it doesn't drawback! But more specific in the discard matches it sucks even more, solidarity need to filter cards, fill the grave with spells and keep the hand full so it can combo out and use flash of insight well - and leaving FoI out of the deck means or you don't understand the deck at all or you really don't understand the deck.

Btw the Flash of insight is very useful card against discard decks...

You are right about brainstorm, but against Hym to tourach, i think it just a let it play situation a see what i can do with the cards that left...
Land destruction, like sinkhole, can be dealt with counters, remand real do a good job here. And to conclude, sometimes the Confidant can work better then the blasting start: ritual - duress- hym.

Summing all up: hard match up but there are harder matches...

In my testing, I haven't liked FoI. Its only been good to cast from the grave and I often have it sitting dead in my hand to find something for more mana then I can spend to find something. Peer Through Depths (from Tacosnape's list) has been far superior. It digs 5 cards deep to find me meditate/cunning wish/etc though I can't cast it from the grave. Though I can't use it twice like FoI (though FoI is more mana intensive) its quite difficult to use FoI while you are setting up while the converse is true for Peer Through Depths. Besides, if you don't need to drop an island, Peer Through Depths is a better Impulse in that it digs 5 cards deep instead of 4.

Spell Pierce is bad? Really.. They allowed me to combo off through curse catcher, daze, force, force vs. merfolk post board. I'd say that is pretty good, and if I were running Disrupts instead I would have lost: I went off in my opponents upkeep and he had lethal damage if he got to his next combat phase and had enough mana to deal with disrupts.

I'd imagine that FoI would be good in the discard matchup, provided that your opponent is stupid enough to make you discard it, when you clearly want to play it from the grave and not as much from your hand.

And Tacosnape already made all of these points.


Why is everyone so insistent on running Flash of Insight? From someone who picked this deck up about a week after it was first posted, Flash is just bad with Cunning Wish not being able to grab cards you exile with it anymore.

Also, why is nobody running Spell Pierce in sideboard? It's been fantastic for me, packing four, as it solves nearly every single large problem the deck will run into - Discard, Countermagic, opposing Combo decks, Chalice/Trinisphere, Counterbalance, etc. Doesn't stop Teeg/Mage/Canonist, but Cunning Wish for bounce does that just fine.

Also, Twincast: It's great when it's good and subpar when it isn't. It's fantastic against Ad Nauseaum storm combo, as you can Twincast Chants -or- Ad Nauseum itself, resulting in either a timewalk or a high chance at a win, given that you can go pretty low on the Ad Nauseum and need either only a Force or the means to win with their copy still on the stack. You can also still hijack the Ill-Gotten Gains loop.

Here's my list.

2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
12 Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
2 Peer Through Depths
1 Twincast
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
2 Brain Freeze

SB:
4 Spell Pierce
1 Twincast
1 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Ravenous Trap

I've tested lists with FoI and Disrupt, and his lists with peer through the depths, and his has been far better. I haven't lost a set yet with his list (though my testing consists only of games via MWS). The only changes I made were to his sideboard:

SB:
4 Spell Pierce
1 Twincast
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Ravenous Trap

Tolarian Winds has saved my ass on poor draws off either Stroke of Genius targeting me, or meditate (I'm sure everyone has run into 3 lands and a force before). Also, the single dredge matchup I played (so far) the guy wasn't dredging that well, which I owe partly to my win, but I had to do a lot of digging to find brain freeze + remand + cunning wish --> Ravenous Trap. It might get easier if a single Ravenous trap can be boarded in along with mystical tutor making it slightly easier to find. Not sure if that will help.

[Seraphus]

I keep what i said: no to spell pierce and absolutely yes to FoI...
By all means if it results to you keep it :smile:

[Vacrix]

I keep what i said: no to spell pierce and absolutely yes to FoI...
By all means if it results to you keep it

But have you tried both? The difference is significant. Disrupt's 1 is more likely to be playable while spell pierce's 2 is much more difficult. Also, spell pierce can counter more than just instants and sorceries. Trinisphere, smokestack, counterbalance, are all relevant. I don't think that spell pierce is better in every way, certain metagames may call for disrupt. In general, I think spell pierce is a better choice.

As for FoI.. why do you like it? Its great when casted from the grave, but otherwise its a really bad impulse that you can only use while you are going off. How could this be better (and justifiable of 2 in the MD)? I think Peer Through the Depths accomplishes the same goal except it functions as an Impulse while you are setting up which also improves the efficacy of Brainstorm as a filter of cards you don't need. FoI simply costs too much for its first ability to be relevant so its really just an overcosted, instant merchant's scroll that can only dig so deep. At the most I would run 1 because its hard to play the flash back of 2 of them; you only have so many cards to remove. In all cases but 1 (that I can distinctly remember) in my testing, I would rather have had FoI than Peer Through the Depths. Unless we run something that makes you discard, I dont see FoI being as effective as Peer through the Depths.

[Seraphus]

I ll explain my point of view about FoI: almost every time when you complete 3 lands and have it on your hand you play it - regardless if it's countered or not - if it's countered good less one spell to counter combo pieces, the convert mana cost helps a lot - and this matters when facing the nightmare called: Counterbalanced - also you don't reveal the card picked by FoI, you can pick land when screw and any other card. The fact of in combo time, it can tutored any card - hardly, very hardly your possible pick sucks - the sinergy between this card and the rest of the deck is amazing, it makes the cards in grave, either they were countered, discarted or played, useful again!
You can't find better card to tutored not even the mystical it self (FOR THOSE WHO ARE NOW THINK THIS IS A JOKE: I AM ONLY SPEAKING ABOUT THE INCLUSION OF THIS TWO CARDS IN SOLIDARITY) it will guarantee the victory some times and also when need it will find the answer needed at some point... And btw it will organize the deck after picking...

[Bahamuth]

@ Taco: How's Spell Pierce been for you in the combo turn? Does it matter that it's bad with High Tide?

[Seraphus]

Once again people i insist in discussing the Iona reanimate match...
Brainstorming please!! The match against solidarity is like 1% chances for soli. win!

[Tacosnape]

@ Taco: How's Spell Pierce been for you in the combo turn? Does it matter that it's bad with High Tide?

It's obviously not something you want to see two of off a Meditate, but it's worth it for letting you combo off with a lot less impairment. It's also on rare occasions been used as a 3-mana Storm Count raiser, so there you go. I don't find it any worse than any other sideboard card.

By "Bad with High Tide," I'm assuming you're meaning that it's easier for the opponent to pay for a Force or Counter with one untapped land, in which case you're obviously correct. But counters from the hand have never been the problem as much as have permanents that interfere with the combo, or just plain faster combo decks. Pierce addresses all three. You can also just Turnabout their lands before you go off, if you have enough time and resources.

@Reanimator: You're seriously terrible or unlucky if this is unwinnable for you. It's not a great battle, but just don't let Iona resolve. Force helps, as does Spell Pierce from the board, as does Remand if they're lagging a bit. If you seriously have an issue with the matchup, Run some kind of yard hate. Ravenous Trap is fairly popular given the synergy with Brain Freeze, but I've run Leyline before in a certain meta.

[Seraphus]

Folks i hate to admit but until worldwake release Solidarity starts to seams to me a lost bet... :cry:

[socialite]

Folks i hate to admit but until worldwake release Solidarity starts to seams to me a lost bet... :cry:

Welcome to a year ago.

[Seraphus]

During a period the deck was viable because counterbalance stars to fade so Solidarity could come back but merfolks starts to it hard on it...

[Seraphus]

However everything mention about losing faith on the deck a 1st place at a tournament of 50 players seams enough to restore my faith :laugh: :laugh:

[cjva]

What did you play against? We want a report. =)

Congrats to the win.

[flrn]

However everything mention about losing faith on the deck a 1st place at a tournament of 50 players seams enough to restore my faith :laugh: :laugh:

yeah i would like to hear about the decks you faced.

[Mikeleroi]

Congrats for the 1st position!!

One thing, I didn´t understand:

Folks i hate to admit but until worldwake release Solidarity starts to seams to me a lost bet... :cry:
has been any special card spoiled or something like that?

These days I am thinking frantic search will be unbanned soon... maybe it is just the Christmas' illusion :p but I don´t believe that Solidarity would be so good with 4 FS. Until that day, I think I'll keep playing the other decks I have... Nowadays, for me Solidarity is too hard to pilot comparing the reward you have: after 4-5 games the head is saying "take a rest and next time, pick burn.deck", and all the times I play against a friend using dredge.deck, it is a torture.

[lebarion]

Nowadays, for me Solidarity is too hard to pilot comparing the reward you have: after 4-5 games the head is saying "take a rest and next time, pick burn.deck", and all the times I play against a friend using dredge.deck, it is a torture.

I feel the same way. Last time I took Solidarity to a champ, I won against 2 Orim's Chant, and, in other match, against 3 Force of Wills. But in the same day I've lost to Hexmage Depths because I didn't have the tap/draw spell, and lost another match cause I took the wrong card with Flash of Insight.

Of course, everybody knows that this deck IS hard to pilot well and this should not be an excuse not to play it. But since Zoo, Goblins and Burn can outrace you sometimes, I don't think it's worth it anymore.

If Frantic Search is unbanned, however, I would try Solidarity again, for sure.

[Tacosnape]

I don't think the deck is all that unviable in the current metagame with the proper build. Not arguing it's a top choice or anything, but Landstill, Goblins, Zoo, any variation of Survival, and any variation of 43 Land are all pretty simple. Aggro Loam's winnable. Storm Combo isn't horrible if you run Twincast and Spell Pierce in board, as both are great against Orim's Chant, Ad Nauseam, and the Ill-Gotten Gains loop. And I'm 4-4 against Merfolk in matchups - Daze and Cursecatcher aren't that terrible to deal with if they don't back it up with a clock. Stifle, if they run it, can easily be avoided mid-combo and is only a real threat if they aim it at your lands, which leaves them with just Force to stop you.

Countertop, obviusly, is still the nightmare this deck doesn't want to face. But most of the random things cropping up aren't too horrible for a competent Solidarity pilot.

[cjva]

I don't understand all this talking about Frantic Search. If it gets unbanned, it get unbanned, but i guess wizard wont do that, not thanks to the fact that a suboptimal combodeck might utilize it, but thanks to the fact that other more viable decks can abuse it. So, why not just drop it and play with the cards we have?

Countertop is a nightmare. In my meta its been slowly fading away, and i see a trend that it does so elsewhere as well. If that happens, we might have a new rising for solidarity, but the biggest problem is that its insanely hard to pilot.

My result with solidarity have improved with the inclusion of 3 Mindbreak Trap in the SB, and against aggro control, and control decks i tend to board out 1-2 FoW and some other stuff to include them.

Since i included land #19 i have also made the deck more stable then it was before. Did cut 1 remand for it.

This is how my deck looks right now, and i'm pretty happy with it. Want to include 1 Words of wisdom somwhere, couse i more often then not wish for stroke to stroke myself.

Md.
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
2 Cryptic Command
2 Remand
2 Brainfreeze
2 Flash of Insight
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
3 Opt
1 Peek
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
7 fetchland
12 Island

SB.
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genious
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Echoing truth
2 Wipe Away
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Twincast

[GreenOne]

How is mindbreak trap working for you? Is it good only vs combo or do you find yourself siding it against other decks too?

I guess Words of Wisdom might take a spot in the maindeck in place of Peek, or in the SB in place of a Mind Trap.

[cjva]

How is mindbreak trap working for you? Is it good only vs combo or do you find yourself siding it against other decks too?

I guess Words of Wisdom might take a spot in the maindeck in place of Peek, or in the SB in place of a Mind Trap.

Against some combo i take it in. (ANT and the likes) But most of the time i bring it in against control and aggro control.

When we go off, the stack often looks like this.

1: Our high tide.
2: Their Countner
3: Our High tide/reset/counter
4: Their Counter
5: Our random spell
6: Their counter
7: Mindbreak trap.

it lessens the amount of counterspells we need, and if they don't want us to trap them, they need to let us resolve spells.

Nahh, i want it in their, but I'm not prepared to cut the Peek, nor a trap. So i guess i wont find room for the Words of Wisdom.

[Silent Requiem]

I've been doing some thinking and some testing after coming in second at a local tournament. Now, I really ought to have come in first, but in the final round I was twice unable to find the gas to play around a lighting bolt.

My thinking has been that as the deck evolves in a certain direction we make further choices based on where the deck is right now, when making a choice from where the deck once was would lead to a neater solution.

I have therefore decided to re-read the original Solidarity thread (all 129 pages) look at the decks evolution so that I can re-evaluate card choices that were discarded in response to a previous meta.

One of the cards that really jumped out at me was Mystical Tutor. At one time there was a real debate over whether MT or Twincast was the right choice. Twincast seemed to win out, mostly because MT telegraphed too much information to control players.

Now, however, I have dropped Twincast from my MD anyway, and I find that most of my meta is either aggro or aggro control. Indeed, I have only played against one real control deck, and even Countertop is unusual in my meta (yay!).

Now, it is already standard practice to SB a MT for the aggro matchup, giving you essentially 5 High Tides in the deck. I wondered about taking this a step further.

In order to do any meaningful testing I needed a baseline. I therefore played 50 goldfishes with my standard build and recorded the results. The rules were as follows:

1) I was always on the play (card disadvantage).
2) I HAD to combo off for lethal on my fourth turn or lose (or rather, my opponent's fourth turn).
3) I could always assume that my opponent cast something in turns three and four (so I could use Remand).
4) I did not have to instant kill my opponent, nor did I have to worry about counters, but my opponent would contribute nothing to the storm count.
5) I had whatever I wanted in my Wishboard.

My deck list was:

12 Island
6 Fetchlands

4 Reset
4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
3 Remand
2 Brainfreeze
2 Cryptic Command

My results surprised me. I 50 games I was only able to combo off successfully (under the above conditions) 26 times. Now, I might just really suck, and it has been a while since I was goldfishing, but I was expecting to do far better than 52%.

I noticed that my failures fell into three catagories: games where I had fizzled, games where I had failed to find all the combo pieces in time, and games where I had simply not made all my land drops. I did not record the frequency of each failure, because I did not notice until I was well into my sample, but the first two failure rates felt very roughly equal, with missed land drops being significantly less of a problem.

I then conducted the test again, but with MT in the place of Cryptic Command. Again, my results surprised me. As Cryptic Command was essentially a dead card when goldfishing, I would have expected a notable improvement in my record. Instead, I won exactly 26 of my 50 games. Now, I accept that I am not used to playing with MT, and I may therefore have not taken full advantage of it, but I still expected a greater improvement.

I then began a similar test with MT replaced by Merchant Scroll and Opt replaced by Quicken, but I was so dissatisfied with the way it felt that I did not finish the set. Opt is simply too powerful to replace.

Finally, I played a set with MT replacing Cryptic Command and the three Remand becoming a third Brainfreeze and two Peeks. This addition was an added throwback to decklists that predated Remand.

Once again, my results surprised me, but this time because of the significance of the change. Of my 50 goldfishes, I "won" 38, for a 76% win percentage (as compared to my original 52%). I also noted that I almost never failed because I could not put the combo together. Although I sometimes failed to get all four land drops, I also rarely failed when I tried to go off with three lands if I had all the combo pieces, probably because I had fewer expensive/dead cards. So my failures were due almost exclusively to fizzling mid combo. There is only so much we can do about bad draws.

Now, clearly, I need to do some testing against other players to see if the added consistency has come at the cost of resilience. Still, I have a few thoughts about the coming test:

1) MT as a shuffle effect mid combo is fantastic. It makes Brainstorm even more broken.
2) Brainfreeze-Remand-Brainfreeze costs six mana and can be countered by targeting the Remand. Brainfreeze-Brainfreeze is comparatively difficult to counter, and only costs four mana.
3) Having the additional Brainfreeze made me far more likely to Brainfreeze myself if needed to put a FoI into the graveyard.
4) Although I have no real way of slowing an opponent (short of FoW), I seem to be ready to go off faster. Only testing will determine whether this tradeoff is acceptable.
5) MT does advertise the "scarce" resource, but in my meta this is not likely to be an issue.
6) Peek should be even more valuable in actual play than it is in goldfishing, which should help me play around counters.
7) While this build will weaken some matchups, the build could play very differently after sideboarding (ie, the MTs could come out, etc).

-Silent Requiem

[cjva]

16 lands... does that realy work out for you?

My biggest problem when comboing off is lack of land drops, i rarely have problems with finding gas.

[Silent Requiem]

lol, no. That should be 18. I have fixed the original post.

-Silent Requiem

[Vacrix]

1) MT as a shuffle effect mid combo is fantastic. It makes Brainstorm even more broken.
2) Brainfreeze-Remand-Brainfreeze costs six mana and can be countered by targeting the Remand. Brainfreeze-Brainfreeze is comparatively difficult to counter, and only costs four mana.
3) Having the additional Brainfreeze made me far more likely to Brainfreeze myself if needed to put a FoI into the graveyard.
4) Although I have no real way of slowing an opponent (short of FoW), I seem to be ready to go off faster. Only testing will determine whether this tradeoff is acceptable.
5) MT does advertise the "scarce" resource, but in my meta this is not likely to be an issue.
6) Peek should be even more valuable in actual play than it is in goldfishing, which should help me play around counters.
7) While this build will weaken some matchups, the build could play very differently after sideboarding (ie, the MTs could come out, etc).

I think Remand is too good to be dropped. Its a time walk against quite a few decks, and its really difficult to get 2 brainfreeze vs. remand + brainfreeze. Besides, at least in my experience, it is not so common for Solidarity to have mana issues once it is going off (especially in gold fish).

MT might be better to board in for matchups like zoo, elves, and goblins where the players clock is really fast, and you need to sculp your hand quickly. It could replace REB if it proves to improve Solidarity's clock.

If you only have one CB player in your meta, why do you run 2 MD Cryptic Command? Do you run into stax/stompy? It looks much better as Twincast in an aggro/aggro control meta.


How is mindbreak trap working for you? Is it good only vs combo or do you find yourself siding it against other decks too?

Wow, trap actually looks really good. I never thought to stack the spells and then use trap to ensure they all resolve. Thats so much more effective then fighting over high tide's resolution. The only problem I could see with this is if they don't have 3 counters (how often does this really happen?) then you can't use trap. If you run into 1 force instead of 3 then you are in trouble.

[Silent Requiem]

I think Remand is too good to be dropped. Its a time walk against quite a few decks, and its really difficult to get 2 brainfreeze vs. remand + brainfreeze.

But it is also a time walk against you. That two mana could otherwise have been used to Impulse, or Brainstorm/Opt, or Mistical Tutor/Opt. And if they have anything else on the table, it is worse than a time walk, because you are still getting hit. The only exception is if it gives us the time to play a land that we could otherwise not have played (ie, they would have won on their turn 3). That is generally not the case.

Sure, Remand can pull some nifty tricks, but I'm not sure yet whether it compares to the raw power of MT. While MT is often used to find HT, I have equally used it to grab FoW or other useful cards. It keeps your options open in a way that Remand does not.


If you only have one CB player in your meta, why do you run 2 MD Cryptic Command? Do you run into stax/stompy? It looks much better as Twincast in an aggro/aggro control meta.

You guessed it: Stax. When combined with Countertop, I find it useful to run the maindeck bounce. I used to run Twincast in that slot, but I switched it out as a metagame response. I have not missed the Twincast in actual play, but I suppose it would be interesting to do a set of 50 goldfish with the Twincast as a comparison.

-Silent Requiem

[Vacrix]

But it is also a time walk against you. That two mana could otherwise have been used to Impulse, or Brainstorm/Opt, or Mistical Tutor/Opt. And if they have anything else on the table, it is worse than a time walk, because you are still getting hit. The only exception is if it gives us the time to play a land that we could otherwise not have played (ie, they would have won on their turn 3). That is generally not the case.


Hitting your land drops is so crucial though. Don't forget you can remand your own high tide in response to disruption. MT is indeed strong, but the card disadvantage is so crucial, the only case it might be stronger is against discard, ie. mystical tutor in response to protect HT on top of your library, and even then, its card disadvantage which isn't particularly happy against discard.


You guessed it: Stax. When combined with Countertop, I find it useful to run the maindeck bounce. I used to run Twincast in that slot, but I switched it out as a metagame response. I have not missed the Twincast in actual play, but I suppose it would be interesting to do a set of 50 goldfish with the Twincast as a comparison.

Instead of 2 Cryptic Command, what about a 4th Cunning Wish (I was always curious why every list I've seen so far is restricted to 3) and 1 Mystical Tutor? It will improve your chances of getting high tide for aggro matchups while giving you an additional out against stax/stompy/cb. That will likely improve the gold fish speed too without running something clunky like command. I dropped it in favor of Twincast, and eventually just switched to Tacosnape's build. It gold fishes more consistently than versions with FoI/Cryptic Command. I run into multiples of both too often in matchups where I would rather have something else.

Have you tested Peer Through the Depths > FoI? Moar intuition is awesome.

[cjva]

If your able to build up your hand, they are most likely to. And often when I play against Ur/x aggro control they bring in reb and the like.

But i have also used em when opponents have played one or two spells already this turn.

Once i actually got this in

1: Him Pyrostatic Pillar
2: Me Fetch
3: Him Stifle
4: me Fetch
5: Him Stifle
6: Mindbreak Trap

Our total control over the stack is the only edge we have against the field. We need to use it in order to stand a chance.

Worst case scenario, its a hard counter for 4 mana. Not good, but not that bad either.

[Seraphus]

hi folks its been a wild since i post and visit the forum - mean that Christmas was a wild time shopping and hard cooking work lol :tongue: ...
To clarify the lost faith post: i was testing training and lost every game that day! so i was a little bit anger with the deck (and myself)... but i guess that some days are just impossible days...

Just for start the comeback i want to say that i played in a tournament with 30 players and finished second place with the five first players equal in points all with one lost round, i lost to merfolks 1-2 btw and only because i was mana screw - chain of vapor and repeal really screw Vial and stupid cursecatcher slowing their clock...

list: 61 cards 15 sb (and without being arrogant this is the best list i ever see, and i ever build :rolleyes: )
4 high tide
1 cryptic command
2 twincast
4 reset
3 opt
2 repeal
2 turnabout
2 brainfreeze
3 meditate
4 impulse
2 flash of insight
4 brainstorm
3 cunning wish
4 Force of will
3 remand
2 misty rainforest
2 scalding tarn
2 polluted delta
12 island

Sb:
3 disrupt
2 ravenous trap
1 meditate
1 rebuild
1 stroke of genius
2 echoing truth
2 chain of vapor
1 turnabout
2 wipe away

report:(i don't fully remember the details, sorry...)

1st round: mono u non balanced

i remember this game in through 4 specific moments.
Fist game remand force and counter war end up in a high storm count without stifle on the other side.
The second game, twincast rule the game plus flash of insight and remand cleaning the stifle, although i was needed to combo out for the second time i establish that i needed to gatherer an amount of cards in my grave to play a big FoI, due to solidarity recycle cards factor i managed that without lose my hand! twincast as mentioned helped a lot...

1-0

2nd round: merfolks

I lose the first one mana screw with 3 lands (without any stifle hit the table)
i was start to think about slice and dice my wrists and feed my self to the fishes - or thinking about sushi either way my thinks was about fishes :laugh:
the second game really works well for me as i said repeal + chain of vapor + twincast = grilled fish
Third game was bad really bad mana screw again althought i combo out i fizzled...

1-1

3rd round: mono red

ONCE AGIAN BOUNCES SPELLS RULE!
the only difference was i forgot the stupid pyrostatic pillar and use a bounce (repeal on the stupid marauders) next turn my opponent play the pillar and i :cry:
third game complete overwhelming victory!!!!

4th round: GOBLINS

AND THE BOUNCES SAGA CONTINUES! leaving no chances to him...
first game was wined by a force on Lackey...

AND SO IT WAS! SOLIDARITY FOR THE WIN! :tongue:

[Seraphus]

And BTW about my list i think one wipe away is enough and one more ravenous trap its a good ideia... no? yes?

[cjva]

And BTW about my list i think one wipe away is enough and one more ravenous trap its a good ideia... no? yes?

Thats depends on the meta.

Lots of ichorid not so much cb/top. More traps over wipe away is good. and vice versa.

[Seraphus]

What would you chose to play at a GP?

[cjva]

What would you chose to play at a GP?

my guess is that there will be more cb/top in the meta then ichorid.

[pi4meterftw]

To the solidarity players, why does it seem like "is hard to pilot" is received as a good thing? It's definitely a bad thing. Like it's not even neutral, it's just bad.

I tried it before, it was kind of fun, which is a good thing. Frantic search unbanned would put Ad Nauseam ahead too much. Even if that weren't totally broken, I think AdN would still be a better choice than solidarity. Maybe if something AdN stands to benefit less from such as: U draw a card untap a land or something were printed, then solidarity could exclusively take advantage of it. Other decks would just see it as a card that ruins mulligan decisions, since AdN doesn't usually care about 1 storm cause it doesn't need 17 storm for the finisher to be lethal.

[4eak]

To the solidarity players, why does it seem like "is hard to pilot" is received as a good thing? It's definitely a bad thing. Like it's not even neutral, it's just bad.

"Hard to pilot" may translate into:


Makes the Solidarity player less predictable (to some extent)
Can be difficult for your opponent to know how to perfectly play against you in a given circumstance (as effectively playing against an opponent often includes a thorough understanding of your enemy).
Fewer pilots in general because of a high skill requirement.

Fewer people metagaming against you directly.
Fewer people testing against your deck.
Lower card prices because of a lower demand.
Catching less seasoned players off guard; as some may not be fully aware of your deck.


From a competitive standpoint, every expert player of a tier 1 deck should want it to be "hard to pilot"; they want to keep their lead against every other player who isn't as skilled. Decks which are "hard to pilot" have similar benefits to rogue decks; and it's exceptionally useful to have a tier 1 rogue deck, as you'll often be shooting fish in a barrel. But, Solidarity isn't tier 1. Many of these points aren't so relevant in a metagame with Counterbalance, Tendrils, Dredge, and even aggro decks which push that fundamental turn 3 and 4 too easily.




peace,
4eak

[GreenOne]

I see people with a good portion of combo decks in their meta. I'm having a nice Tendrils matchup lately with a heavy counter list featuring 4 FoW, 3 Remand, 2 Twincast, 2 Disrupt, 3 Wish-> Trap and Misdi. Just if someone is willing to test it.

[cjva]

I consider hard to pilot to be a good thing. But of course thats dependant on how you view your game of magic, and why you play magic.

I play magic first and foremost couse I want the intelectual challange. The competition is just a bonus, i think its equally fun to just play two decks against eachother here at home. Much like solving a pussle when i try to figure out the optimal play in each given situation.

But playing in a tournament with a deck thats hard to pilot gives you an edge if you have practiced with the deck enough. Much of what 4eak says is true there. It demands more of you, and your playing, but when you have the skills you need you get thee rewards.

I don't know how many wins i have got out of the fact that people missplay against me.

And a deck that is hard to pilot give me another motivation for playing this game.

If i play a game where my wins and losses comes down to random elements, i tend to be rather bored with the game. When i play solidarity i can allways explain my losses with some sort of error from my part, and focus on getting better at the game.

[pi4meterftw]

Well yeah if there are rewards, then those might overcome the negative of "hard to play."

But it seems like a lot of players just go like: it's hard to play, +1!

If the deck's better then that's fine, but that's not intrinsic to "hard to play."

I leak 4eak's point that the amount a metagame metas against you IS intrinsic. However, Solidarity as a particular case happens to have that property overcome by the fact that it's splash hated by Ad Nauseam-hating cards.

[Seraphus]

New topic:

Stroke vs. Words of Wisdom

[cjva]

Stroke every day of the week. Is that even a topic?

[Seraphus]

Stroke every day of the week. Is that even a topic?

The question is why use both? I see lately lists with both and don't get why...

[Taurelin]

Probably because with M10 rules it's not possible to
- wish for Stroke
- use Stroke to draw cards
- remove Stroke with Flash of Insight
- wish for Stroke again
- cast Stroke a second time to finish them off.

Some players feel that you need a 2nd option to make the opponents draw themselves dead.

[Seraphus]

So in a meta for example a GP what sb would you have?

[flrn]

Sideboard:
1 Brain Freeze
3 Disrupt
2 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
3 Wipe Away

most likely.

[Seraphus]

3 wipe way? what is your list? no cryptic? no main bounces?

[flrn]

1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Opt
1 Peek
1 Peer Through Depths
3 Remand
4 Reset
2 Twincast
3 Turnabout
1 Flooded Strand
12 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

Something like this. Probably 1 Twincast too much. Could run another Peer Through Depths or the fourth Opt or the second Peek in that spot. Cryptic Command was never any good in my tournament matches, so i ditched it. I also played against a lot of Swarm-Aggro, so i had to be fast. Postboard you really want those Wipe Away, if you are facing Counterbalance, so 3 is the right number to play. Even with those shitload of cantrips, we need to find it very fast. Mystical is no option in that case, because we´re showing the opponent what we´re up to.

I think my sideboard is mostly self-explaining, but here is a short one to each of those cards.

Brain Freeze - If i dont find the maindeck one in time and need to wish for it. I board it in against Swarm-Aggro decks to have a second kill option maindeck or to be able to play 2 Brain Freeze, if i have a lower storm count.

Disrupt - Comes in against anything that plays counters.

Echoing Truth - Bouncespell for my Wishboard. Very useful against decks, which produce a lot of tokens.

Meditate/Rebuild/Stroke of Genius/Turnabout - Wishboard Stuff everyone should run and self-explaining.

Mystical Tutor - Comes in against Swarm-Aggro to have a fifth High Tide or to have a tutor for every card in the deck to always have the right card when its needed.

Ravenous Trap - Wishtarget against Dredge/Loamstuff.

Wipe Away - Against Counterbalance.

[Seraphus]

Are you facing hard times against merfolks?

[dyzzy]

Are you facing hard times against merfolks?
I find it almost impossible to lose against Solidarity when I'm playing Merfolk and almost impossible to win against Merfolk when I'm playing Solidarity.

I realize this post contributes nothing to the conversation.

[cjva]

Im still meddling with my SB. But it will probably look something like this.

3 Mindbreak Trap (the NUTS against control)
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe Away
2 Twincast
1 Stroke
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Mystical Tutor

the card wich I are most happy with in my SB are the Mindbreak Traps, the usuals and mystica tutor. Rest depends more on what kind of meta i predict.

[pi4meterftw]

Im still meddling with my SB. But it will probably look something like this.

3 Mindbreak Trap (the NUTS against control)
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe Away
2 Twincast
1 Stroke
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Mystical Tutor

the card wich I are most happy with in my SB are the Mindbreak Traps, the usuals and mystica tutor. Rest depends more on what kind of meta i predict.

Wow Mindbreak looks really good actually. When it only counters 1 spell it's still mediocre, but every time it counters 2 spells it's extremely backbreaking, and then if it's free it's total rape.

[cjva]

I rarely play for any other cost then 0. Going off when they have had time to build their hand with counters tend to do that.

[Seraphus]

I find it almost impossible to lose against Solidarity when I'm playing Merfolk and almost impossible to win against Merfolk when I'm playing Solidarity.

I realize this post contributes nothing to the conversation.

With posts like yours sure it doesn´t even contribute to Magic but ok...
I am playing with a solidarity list that wins (around 60%) against merfolks without any disadvantaged by playing 61 cards...

And the other post was specifically to Flrn not some random question i just forgot to quote it

[Silent Requiem]

Just an update on the Tutor + Peek list that I have been testing.

Against aggro, it was everything I could have hoped for. I could, and would, go off on turn 4 like clockwork. However, it hurt my control/aggro-control match-ups far more than I expected. My counterbalance match-up went from about 30-40% to 10-20%. While this might be worthwhile in a pure aggro meta, I dislike having such a weakness in my maindeck.

I have therefore gone back to my standard list, and I will start testing changes in the opposite direction, ie, more controlling. One of the things I will test is switching out FoI for PtD. This was something suggested by Tacosnape some time ago, but I have been so addicted to Flash of Insight that I have avoided testing the change.

I have also been putting together an ANT deck for quick casual games, and it has been a real eye opener. Although the deck is clearly faster (which is why I am putting it together), it really makes me appreciate just how resilient Solidarity can be.

-Silent Requiem

[Seraphus]

Just an update on the Tutor + Peek list that I have been testing.

Against aggro, it was everything I could have hoped for. I could, and would, go off on turn 4 like clockwork. However, it hurt my control/aggro-control match-ups far more than I expected. My counterbalance match-up went from about 30-40% to 10-20%. While this might be worthwhile in a pure aggro meta, I dislike having such a weakness in my maindeck.

I have therefore gone back to my standard list, and I will start testing changes in the opposite direction, ie, more controlling. One of the things I will test is switching out FoI for PtD. This was something suggested by Tacosnape some time ago, but I have been so addicted to Flash of Insight that I have avoided testing the change.

I have also been putting together an ANT deck for quick casual games, and it has been a real eye opener. Although the deck is clearly faster (which is why I am putting it together), it really makes me appreciate just how resilient Solidarity can be.

-Silent Requiem



hi folks its been a wild since i post and visit the forum - mean that Christmas was a wild time shopping and hard cooking work lol :tongue: ...
To clarify the lost faith post: i was testing training and lost every game that day! so i was a little bit anger with the deck (and myself)... but i guess that some days are just impossible days...

Just for start the comeback i want to say that i played in a tournament with 30 players and finished second place with the five first players equal in points all with one lost round, i lost to merfolks 1-2 btw and only because i was mana screw - chain of vapor and repeal really screw Vial and stupid cursecatcher slowing their clock...

list: 61 cards 15 sb (and without being arrogant this is the best list i ever see, and i ever build :rolleyes: )
4 high tide
1 cryptic command
2 twincast
4 reset
3 opt
2 repeal
2 turnabout
2 brainfreeze
3 meditate
4 impulse
2 flash of insight
4 brainstorm
3 cunning wish
4 Force of will
3 remand
2 misty rainforest
2 scalding tarn
2 polluted delta
12 island

Sb:
3 disrupt
2 ravenous trap
1 meditate
1 rebuild
1 stroke of genius
2 echoing truth
2 chain of vapor
1 turnabout
2 wipe away


What do you think the main deck bounce mechanical? With the dificult of play cryptic against aggro decks Repeal really works out due to its adaptable CMC like cmc= 2 against zoo, goblins, merfolks and others, working as a delay and draw. And against counterbalance as we all now its hard for them to find a CMC 3... I already test it and i found out to be an amazing list - at this moment my only concern it's my vice for not pile shuffling my deck and we all know at is the result after use FoI :laugh:

As someone said Solidarity reacts to treats, sculpts the perfect hand and finally kills the opponent, it doesn't necessary means that a first turn Nacatl is a great treat - 3/3 clock -and need to be killed just need to me calmed down and like any little wild animal throwing something at its head and it goes way giving you time to run...
Concerning Repeal in other matches there is non that it can't be used (with the exception of our mirror).

The Mystical Tutor, - if you see my sb there's always 2 of solution cards (2 Wipe away 2 echoing truth and 2 Ravenous trap) -, it works like one card of staying in sb for wish and the other comes in with Tutor.

This is just a suggestion :wink:

[Silent Requiem]

I just finished a 50 game set of goldfishing with my usual parameters. The deck list was my base list, but with 4 Wishes in the maindeck and one Tide in the sideboard (+1 Wish, -1 Tide). I won 26 of my games, or 52%. This is exactly the same success rate as my unmodified base list.

This test suggests that, disruption aside, switching out a Tide for a Wish makes no difference (positive or negative) to your success rate. However, the deck certainly played very differently. To begin with, turn 3 is a very hectic turn. I want to get FoI into the GY without card disadvantage, but I also want to Wish for Tide. And of course, I still need to make sure that I hit all my land drops. I didn't like what felt like a bottleneck in the deck.

Now, if I were running PtD instead of FoI, this bottleneck might be reduced. On the other hand, the additional Wish made Brainfreeze-FoI tricks much safer, as I was less likely to be left without a Wish after I stacked my deck.

I also found that it was possible to Wish for Tide and go off on turn 4 providing I had two untap effects. However, mana was more of an issue than with my standard list, as having two or more High Tides in play was a more unusual situation.

Outside of goldfishing, I can only guess at the differences this exchange makes. Having more Wishes will provide more virtual maindeck answers, but I suspect it is harder to play through disruption when you have to Wish for Tide. There was certainly never a game where I thought a turn 3 win was possible.

For me, the loss of potential turn 3 wins (when forced) would be worthwhile if there was a corresponding increase in turn 4 wins. However, my testing did not show this to be the case.

-Silent Requiem

[TheyCallMeTim]

just finished a 50 game set of goldfishing with my usual parameters. The deck list was my base list, but with 4 Wishes in the maindeck and one Tide in the sideboard (+1 Wish, -1 Tide). I won 26 of my games, or 52%. This is exactly the same success rate as my unmodified base list.

This certainly does seem too low. I figured someone else would've replied on the topic by now. No offense, but it makes me wonder if your play style is to blame. I'm going to try the same trial myself (maybe even 100 games, 50 may be insufficient) to see if I get similar results.

[Silent Requiem]

Yeah, I had been hoping to generate some feedback too.

When I first started running these tests I was suprised at how low my results were, given that this deck is thought of as having a fundamental turn of 4. But the results have been consistent all the way through the test (rather than having a long losing streak, etc). I have posted the parameters earlier, but I shall repost if you intend to run the test yourself. I would be very happy to learn that the deck can perform better if I simply L2P.

1) I am on the play.
2) I must deck the opponent by/on their 4th turn. Failure to do so results in a loss.
3) There is no disruption, but I can assume the opponent plays something for me to Remand on turns 2 and 3.
4) Opponent contributes nothing to the storm count.

I really look forward to you (and others) posting their own results.

-Silent Requiem

Edit: Although it probably goes without saying, you mulligan as normal, dropping to 6 cards on the first mulligan, and then 5, etc.

[Seraphus]

I am really sorry but if no one tell you i will: your concept of this deck after telling what you just mention reveals to be totally misguided.
Just to give you a clue solidarity is a reactive deck so when you play alone you don't have a single thing to react! LOL
And not speaking of the way on magic improvement is around testing against really opponents the stronger the better...

[Silent Requiem]

I am really sorry but if no one tell you i will: your concept of this deck after telling what you just mention reveals to be totally misguided.
Just to give you a clue solidarity is a reactive deck so when you play alone you don't have a single thing to react! LOL
And not speaking of the way on magic improvement is around testing against really opponents the stronger the better...

Solidarity is a combo deck. The goal of all combo decks is to reduce interaction to zero. Solidarity can react, but like any combo deck it loves opponents with no disruption. To suggest that Solidarity cannot or should not win without the opponent somehow contributing is "misguided".

Goldfishing is no substitute for real play, but that does not mean that it serves no purpose. By setting parameters you are able to minimise variables and see how your deck functions in a vacuum. Frankly, time limit aside, goldfishing presents this deck with the best possible conditions to go off. While goldfishing on it's own can be misleading (cards that are "dead" in goldfishing may serve a purpose against an opponent packing disruption, for example), it serves as a useful benchmark.

What my goldfishing tells me is that, in it's current form, under ideal conditions (no disruption, no need for an instant kill), this deck only has a 50% chance of going off sucessfully by turn 4. Now, if you think that my results are due to poor play on my part, duplicate my experiment and bring back your own results for discussion, but don't tell me that this is not relevant.

Whenever we plan our matchups against other decks we have to look at our opening hand and decide whether we are trying to race or trying to disrupt to buy time. Knowing how long we typically need to go off sucessfully is a critical component of this decision. If this deck is only 50% on turn 4, chances are we can't race counterbalance, or ANT, etc. Heck, we probably have a rough time racing goblins. So we want a hand full of disruption against those decks.

Now, I have posted about builds that have a much higher success rate regarding turn 4 comboing, but are much more vulnerable to disruption, and pack less disruption of their own. Don't you think that will be relevant to somebody choosing a build in a mostly aggro meta?

This stuff matters. Unless my test results are off. In which case it is up to the rest of the community to prove that, and to that end I have posted my methodology so that my tests can be duplicated and the results contested. That's how the scientific method works.

-Silent Requiem

[Hopo]

This stuff matters. Unless my test results are off. In which case it is up to the rest of the community to prove that, and to that end I have posted my methodology so that my tests can be duplicated and the results contested. That's how the scientific method works.

I agree 100 %. But, this is no science. You are not the first person to goldfish solidarity. Others before you have no problems going off turn 4. The more you play the deck, the better you start to see winning hands and correct combinations of cards in given situations.

Basically the only things preventing you from goldfishing turn ~4 are bad mulligan decisions or fizzling meditates. Solidarity was a constant turn 4 combo many years ago. It hasn't changed, at least not in the goldfish mode.

[Silent Requiem]

I agree 100 %. But, this is no science. You are not the first person to goldfish solidarity. Others before you have no problems going off turn 4. The more you play the deck, the better you start to see winning hands and correct combinations of cards in given situations.

Basically the only things preventing you from goldfishing turn ~4 are bad mulligan decisions or fizzling meditates. Solidarity was a constant turn 4 combo many years ago. It hasn't changed, at least not in the goldfish mode.

My emphasis.

The deck has changed. I run 9 cards (4 FoW, 3 Remand, 2 Cryptic) that are essentially dead pre and mid combo. The Remands and Cryptics have been added since the deck's heyday. Cards removed from the game via FoI can no longer be wished for. Mana no longer floats between steps. Things have changed, even in goldfish mode. But we go on acting like things haven't.

Sure, I'm not the greatest Solidarity player ever, and I'm not the first person to goldfish the deck, but I am the only one posting numbers and repeatable tests.

I think the deck has slowed down. That, or it was never quite as fast as people told themselves it was. I think that the deck has gotten used to getting a timewalk through Remand, or Cryptic, or early FoW. And that's fine, but if that is happening, oughtn't we to be aware of that, and decide whether that is a good or bad thing? Do we try and go back, or try and go further?

-Silent Requiem

[cjva]

Remand let you win faster.

6 spellcount
Freeze
Remand
8 spellcount
Freeze

Mill 45, wich often is enough.

[Silent Requiem]

Remand let you win faster.

6 spellcount
Freeze
Remand
8 spellcount
Freeze

Mill 45, wich often is enough.

Remand does not let you win faster. Brainfreeze - Remand - Brainfreeze requires 6 mana open, disregarding disruption, which is less likely to occur earlier in the game when you have less time to play lands and sculpt your hand.

Similarly, mill for 45 is only "enough" on turn 8, assuming no mulligans (60 - 7 starting hand - 8 draws), unless they have been playing fetches or card draw, which many decks don't. Even then, they would need to play a fetch every single turn before 45 is "enough" on turn 4.

Remand is a useful card, as it is disruption, and allows you to bait counters, but it does not allow you to win faster. I can say that with some authority as the builds I tested (and posted about) without Remand (2 Mystical Tutor, 2 Peek, 1 Brain Freeze over 3 Remand and 2 Cryptic) had a much higher turn 4 kill rate.

-Silent Requiem

[Seraphus]

Silent Cjva already explained you that Remand counts down the spell count as the amount of mana needed to spend on multiple spells that you may not have in your hand, not even referring to the stifle/trikbind response and Gaes blessing trigger...

And it's very usual not to combo out at 4th turn due to the fact that you almost ever (unless in aggro games) want to land drop the highest number of lands as you can...

:rolleyes:

[Silent Requiem]

Silent Cjva already explained you that Remand counts down the spell count as the amount of mana needed to spend on multiple spells that you may not have in your hand, not even referring to the stifle/trikbind response and Gaes blessing trigger...

And it's very usual not to combo out at 4th turn due to the fact that you almost ever (unless in aggro games) want to land drop the highest number of lands as you can...

:rolleyes:

I understand what Cjva is saying. I'm simply pointing out that reducing the storm count required is not the same as being faster.

If, for example, that Remand had been another card, we could still have gone off that same turn. We would have simply needed to build up more storm. That's not usually a problem. Heck, your arguement suggests that the fastest decks all run 4 Brain Freeze so we can deck an opponent with only a storm of 2 other spells. Ease of storm =/= faster.

I should also reiterate that I see the many benefits of Remand. None of that means that Remand enables us to go off sooner than we otherwise would.

I also appreciate that we don't always, or even often, go off on turn 4. But we claim to be able to. I'm suggesting that the truth is less clear cut. All I'm getting in response, however, is a lot of waffle about how I do not understand the deck or I must be making play mistakes. Either or both of these things may be true, but the allegations would carry a lot more weight if my accusers actually backed up their arguements with their own testing results.

-Silent Requiem

[Vacrix]

Dude.
I love remand. It doesnt speed up the turns by which you win per se but it does enable you to win more easily.. One way was already mentioned. You can win more easily then by playing double brainfreeze. The more obvious choice is that remand timewalks you into another island, pass. Often having that extra island, extra draw can make all the difference, even if zoo does manage to get one more swing in with nactl, I love seeing remands early. What do you run instead of remand?

[Silent Requiem]

Dude.
I love remand. It doesnt speed up the turns by which you win per se but it does enable you to win more easily.. One way was already mentioned. You can win more easily then by playing double brainfreeze. The more obvious choice is that remand timewalks you into another island, pass. Often having that extra island, extra draw can make all the difference, even if zoo does manage to get one more swing in with nactl, I love seeing remands early. What do you run instead of remand?

You misunderstand. I do run Remand, though I have tested lists that do not run Remand that are far more consistent in winning on turn 4. The only reason Remand is being discussed is because cjva posted the following:


Remand let you win faster.

I took issue with that. Remand has many excellent qualities, but winning faster (ie, a turn or more earlier than you could have without Remand) is not one of them. If Remand did help us win faster then lists without Remand ought to have lower turn 4 win percentages, when in fact they have higher percentages.

High Tide lets us win faster, because it allows more mana generation. Reset lets us win faster because it is more mana efficient than Turnabout. Remand does not let us win faster.

If you are interested in lists without Remand I would suggest either Peer Through Depths or Mystical Tutor.

-Silent Requiem

[Vacrix]

You misunderstand. I do run Remand, though I have tested lists that do not run Remand that are far more consistent in winning on turn 4. The only reason Remand is being discussed is because cjva posted the following:
Yeah...but likely you should factor in Remand into your goldfishing. It makes the difference in so many games. I would treat it as the virtual timewalk in a set of 50 games and see if your percentages improve. I mean, provided you are casting it on turn 2 on goyf for instance against zoo, or a lord against merfolk, etc. It slows their clock down even if they can still swing with their one drop. I think the point is..you dont need to goldfish on turn 4 if remand enables you to win on turn 5.


If you are interested in lists without Remand I would suggest either Peer Through Depths or Mystical Tutor.

The list I use runs x2 Peer Through the Depths. Have you tried Tacosnape's list? Its pretty consistent.

Instead of dealing with aggro the old fashion way.. is there any mass removal we can tutor up with Cunning Wish? Maybe a red splash? Pyroclasm is good against goblins and elves.

Its a bit unorthodox....but Tangle could do some pretty unfair things against aggro. And its an instant tutorable under Cunning Wish. Its like a 2 turn timewalk (though remand is a lot closer to a timewalk) against aggro (more than enough time to cantrip into another one or just go off and win).

[Brad Herbig]

I run another fetch and a Twincast in my open spots instead of cryptics, and from my turn 4 goldfish attempts, I seem to be successfully going off a lot more than 50% of the time. Are you mulliganing during your goldfishing Silent Requiem?

Also, I am really enjoying the extra fetchland in Solidarity, because precombo I am happy to make every land drop. I chose a fetch over another Island purely for thinning purposes, since it matters when you see the majority of your deck each game. The Twincast has also been good as either a counterspell or as a double Meditate enabler.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Instead of dealing with aggro the old fashion way.. is there any mass removal we can tutor up with Cunning Wish? Maybe a red splash? Pyroclasm is good against goblins and elves.

Its a bit unorthodox....but Tangle could do some pretty unfair things against aggro. And its an instant tutorable under Cunning Wish. Its like a 2 turn timewalk (though remand is a lot closer to a timewalk) against aggro (more than enough time to cantrip into another one or just go off and win).

The best solution seems to be an answer that happens to be a blue instant. Such a card would keep the build the way it is, without having to introduce the variables that color splashing and non basic land would cause. So what blue mass removal spell is there? Evacuation, effectively our blue Wrath of God, fits the bill quite nicely. I used to run it (successfully, I might add) until someone on The Source pointed out that it is very mana intensive (Wish -> Evacuation = 8 CC). The logic is that if you are able to perform this combination, you should also be able to win. I have had about an equal amount of success without it yet it continues to be an enticing solution, especially when facing board's full of 'Mebaes, Ichorids, goblins, elves, cats, apes, flying rabbits, large wooden badgers and what-have-you.

[Brad Herbig]

The best solution seems to be an answer that happens to be a blue instant. Such a card would keep the build the way it is, without having to introduce the variables that color splashing and non basic land would cause. So what blue mass removal spell is there? Evacuation, effectively our blue Wrath of God, fits the bill quite nicely. I used to run it (successfully, I might add) until someone on The Source pointed out that it is very mana intensive (Wish -> Evacuation = 8 CC). The logic is that if you are able to perform this combination, you should also be able to win. I have had about an equal amount of success without it yet it continues to be an enticing solution, especially when facing board's full of 'Mebaes, Ichorids, goblins, elves, cats, apes, flying rabbits, large wooden badgers and what-have-you.

I have also thought about using an Evacuation against aggro, but it seems like you are often better off just going off with the kill on the stack instead, because if Solidarity's fundamental turn is 4, you aren't going to have 3 and 5 mana to pull an Evacuation off without using a High Tide. The good thing about Solidarity is that you don't really care that much about any of your life points except for the last, and I think that is how we should look at the aggro matchup; just counter the things that will deal provide the quickest clock, and then go off in response to their kill.

[cjva]

Agree fully about Evacuation. Useless. Having 5 lands in play should just result in a win instead.

Played a tournament yesterday.

R1: Canadian Treashold. (0-2)
This game had a couple of unlucky things.
G1, i spinn of, being able to play around 3 daze or 2 daze and 1 fow. He has 4 dazes on hand and effectivly stops my reset and kills me.
G2, i start of with a good hand. (high tide, reset, some lands and cantrips) but i draw blank from regular draws, and cantrips. =/

R2: Mono black 65-card aggro pile. (2-1)
G1. He plays Zuran Orb, some duresses, some hymns aso. I build hand, hide with brainstorm and go off when i need (slow clock, pick the wrong cards with duress).
G2. Clock, some duress, hymn aso. He win. (i fail midcombo, and he picks the right cards this time, after discussing his wrongdoings when sideboarding)
G3. He stalls. Fail to present a clock before turn 6 (or something insane) I end up threatening him when he taps 2 black, and i say (play hymn and ill win) so he plays nantuko instead. =) Funny game, i whould win in respons to his hymn.

R3: Echantress (2-0)

Nice, bye. NEXT!

R4: Zoo (2-1)

This was three tight games.

G1. He kills me to fast. I try to spinn of from 3 lands with tide, tide, reset aso. But i fail.
G2. Tight, tight. I pull it of in the end, (echoing truth/remand to buy some time, and then going off from 5 lands)
G3. Same as above. Only change is that i spin from 4 lands.

Crucial in the Zoo matchup was the post board. Mystical tutor (to find the last combo piece) and echoing truth was realy good at buying time.

R5: UBg Stiflenought (my own deck, that he borrowed. The guy normaly play limited and some standard. We had discussed boardplans and gameplans before the tournament)

G1. He missplay and play BoB instead of CB. I win. Easy.
G2. He counters a bit to much, play CB, present good clocks, and kills me off.
G3. Tight play, i made a crucial missplay, and he win of a Vision Charm.

the stack looks like this.
1. (me) High tide.
2. (he) Brainstorm.
3. (me) High tide.
4. (he) daze.
5. (me) Reset
6. (he) spell snare.
7, (me) Mindbreak trap
8. (he) Top for vision charm and plays it. Island becomes swamp and i loose in his Combat.

I came to the conclusion that his brainstorm was for digging after an answer. (this is an obv fail, couse i knew he knew top 2 cards of the deck, and brainstorm whould only give 1 more option) If i whould let him resolv the brainstorm, and let him play an answer to my first tide again i whould have been able to Trap the vision charm as well, and win the game. Funny to lose against him thou.

Went 3-2 (without the 4xDaze and blanks in R1, and without my missplay in R5 i was close to a 5-0)

[dyzzy]

Thinking about bringing Solidarity to a small tournament tomorrow, right now I'm basically just using this list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28833) (except change the Peer Through Depths to a last Turnabout) since it's the list I learned to play with. Wondering what would be a good sideboard if I'm expecting:

1-2 Merfolk
1-2 Zoo
1 Thresh
1 Dredge
0-2 other GY based combo (Entomb Hulk, regular reanimator)
3-4 other decks (possibilities include: Rock, Bant, Goblins)

[Seraphus]

Thinking about bringing Solidarity to a small tournament tomorrow, right now I'm basically just using this list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28833) (except change the Peer Through Depths to a last Turnabout) since it's the list I learned to play with. Wondering what would be a good sideboard if I'm expecting:

1-2 Merfolk
1-2 Zoo
1 Thresh
1 Dredge
0-2 other GY based combo (Entomb Hulk, regular reanimator)
3-4 other decks (possibilities include: Rock, Bant, Goblins)

Sb:
3 disrupt
2 ravenous trap
1 meditate
1 rebuild
1 stroke of genius
2 echoing truth
2 chain of vapor
1 turnabout
2 wipe away

and instead of the third turnabout use 1 or 2 twincast (61 cads isn't problematic)...

[cjva]

With my list:

2 Brain Freeze
2 Remand
4 Force of Will
2 Cryptic Command
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
1 Peek
3 Meditate
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
2 Flash of Insight
3 Cunning Wish
7 Fetch
12 Island

and my sideboard:

1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Echoing Truth
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Twincast
2 Wipe Away

If i where going to a meta that doesn't have any CB/Top decks in it, i would cut the Wipe Aways in the SB, and Include 2 disrupt in its place. Right now the Mindbreak Traps are included over Disrupts.

In the meta you describe, with the Sideboard i presented above i would board like this:

Merfolk

-4 FoW
-2 Cryptic Command
-1 Cunning Wish
+1 Mystical Tutor
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Mindbreak Trap
+2 Twincast

Zoo
-2 Fow (would like to exclude all 4, but don't know what to bring in instead of the last 2)
-1 Peek
-2 Cryptic Command
+1 Mystical Tutor
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Twincast

Thresh
-4 FoW
-1 Brain Freeze
-2 Cryptic Command
+3 Mindbreak Trap (they will board in even more counters)
+2 Twincast
+2 Disrupt

Dredge - Autoloss most of the time. Hope not to face.
-1 Brain Freeze
-1 Peek
-1 Cunning Wish
-2 Cryptic Command
+1 Mystical Tutor
+2 Ravenous Trap
+2 Echoing Truth

Entomb Hulk (this deck ain't that fast of a combo, many pieces need to be put together. never played against it thou so this SB strat is very just from the top of my head)

-1 Brain Freeze
-1 Opt
-1 Cunning Wish
-2 Cryptic Command
+2 Ravenous Trap
+2 Echoing Truth
+1 Mystical Tutor

regular reanimator (Iona reanimator function mostly like a CB/Top deck against us, with a worse combo frorm their part. Try to rase)

-1 Brain Freeze
-1 Opt
-2 Cryptic Command
+2 Twincast
+2 Mindbreak Trap

Rock

-2 Cryptic Command
-1 peek
-1 Brain Freeze
+2 Twincast
+2 Disrupt

Bant

-3 FoW
-2 Cryptic Command
+3 Mindbreak Trap
+2 Twincast

Goblins

-2 Cryptic Command
-1 Peek
+1 Mystical Tutor
+2 Echoing Truth

Something like this is how i would have played it.

Edit:

My general SB strategy is to board out FoW whenever its possible. In the Control MU the Mindbreak Traps are better. Peek goes out when i face something that don't play counters, Twincast goes in when i need to play around counters, and when they can do much damage to their game plan (as against the rock with their LD aso)

I Don't think i will play a list without 2 Cryptic in the main (if you face CB/Top they are needed, and if you don't there is always something useful to do with them anyways)

[Brad Herbig]

I just finished a smaller goldfish testing using Silent Requiem's goldfish rules, and I got a LOT higher percentage in going off. In fact, after 10 games, I was able to win on their turn 4 with the stroke of genius at the end 8 times, just mill them for their deck once, and draw into too many lands once. Maybe I'm just lucky as hell, but who knows. Here is the list I ran:

4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
3 Opt
3 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
2 Brainfreeze
2 Flash of Insight
1 Twincast
1 Peek

7 Blue Fetches
12 Island

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brainfreeze
11 Other cards not used during goldfishing

[cjva]

Brad: Sounds pretty much like my experience (havent collected any data on it, and probably wont) and your list is very similar to mine. I belive that land #19 give you a higher chance of not fizzling land drops, and doesnt raise the over all midcombo fizzlerate that much.

The only difference between our lists is (from yours)

-1 twincast
-1 remand
+2 Cryptic Command (to much cb/top in my meta)

[Pelikanudo]

Well the other day I tested Solidarity , spent much time since I don't play it...
I expected merfolks, canadian and c.b decks, any Icho too and maybe any Landstill.

Well One card I've played and won me the 2 match ups I played vs merfolks was Pact of negation, absolutly genial card, this card disolves the concept of mana investment. You can play 4 for sure but it is not necssary, the blue trap does ALMOST the same but is used more especifically for that 3rd turn win from ANT.

Also I tested the deck vs the boy who won the tournament, Ichorid, in my opinion the best deck in legacy now thanks to bloodghast, too many pieces of puzzle for a deck that doesn't use the normal draw engine...
Well I played the ravenous trap in side and notice that 4 cunnin wish in the base is the ritgh call, now you have both traps plus pact of negation to handle both Icho , Combo and Canadian.

Well my mistake was to play in side 2 twincast instead the +2 ravenous trap, ok next time I'll do, but what really surprised me was the so potent 5th turn I got vs merfolks 3-1 total (they sided their spell pierce), it was like me playing plying opts, bainstorm , impulses, cunings to get full of puzzle cards vs them including PoN.

Another match up I faced was a control deck with c.b and tarmos. Well I've experienced that most of the decks that run c.b don't run stifle, that's why in a match in response to a c.b when I played cunning wich and after 6 seconds decided to take b.freeze instead W.Away. Won.

The unique match I lost (part from Icho, out of the tournament) was Goblins, absolutly predictable and nothing from side.

So I'm seriously thinking in bring this deck to the GP, is sooo consistent and elegant..
About the base is the standard except from +4th cunning and +4th remand , not cryptics and full of opt (peek is for girls).
About the side I'm trying to fit 3 R.Trap, 3 W.Away and 2 PoN +1 Blue Trap(not sure if definately 3 PoN)

[cjva]

PoN is only good at protecting your combo. FoW, Trap, Disrupt play 2 roles. 1: It protect your combo, 2: It can be a solution to their gameplan.

You are totaly wrong about how to use Mindbreak Trap. It can be used to protect your from a combodecks fast win, but mostly it should be used as a free counterspell with built in card advantage against bluebased control.

You should use it to build a stack.

1: (you) High tide
2: (them) counter
3: (you) High tide, reset, randomspell
4: (them) counter
5: (you) reset, randomspell
6: (them) counter
7: (you) mindbreak trap, exile your spells, resolve my part of the stack.

1 Peek is gold. It gives you useful information, and pre-combo i much rather have 1 Opt and 1 Peek in hand, instead of 2 Opts. I rather have 2 Opt then 2 Peeks, and thats the reason to run Peek as a one of.

I'v also played with 4 Wish in main, and its nice when you can fit it in, but in a CB meta, its always nice to have an out even if they resolve a turn 2 CB against you, and thats the reason why you should run 2 Cryptic Command MD.

How many CB builds now days doesn't play 9+ card with CC 3? Most of the CB decks i face do so, and therefor i feel that Wipe Away ain't as good as it was when Dreadstill was a deck to beat.

Goblin and other mindless aggro is a MU you should win. It's a to big archetype to be ignored. Our MU against Mindless aggro ain't as good as Belcher or ANT against them, but we have a smother MU-curve, and should handle controldecks and other combodecks better then they do.

Strictly you could say that Solidarity is a control deck with a combo finish, and not strictly a combodeck or a controldeck (it actually reminds me much of TPS that i played in vintage for a long time).

[Silent Requiem]

I just finished a smaller goldfish testing using Silent Requiem's goldfish rules, and I got a LOT higher percentage in going off. In fact, after 10 games, I was able to win on their turn 4 with the stroke of genius at the end 8 times, just mill them for their deck once, and draw into too many lands once. Maybe I'm just lucky as hell, but who knows. Here is the list I ran:

4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
3 Opt
3 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
2 Brainfreeze
2 Flash of Insight
1 Twincast
1 Peek

7 Blue Fetches
12 Island

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brainfreeze
11 Other cards not used during goldfishing

Now this is really interesting.

There are 3 possible explanations for you results that spring instantly to mind:

1) Your sample size was too small and you were on a streak.
2) Your changes to the deck (-2 Cryptic, +1 land, +1 Twincast) increase the turn 4 combo percentage significantly.
3) I suck, and my results were artificially depressed by my sucking.

The answer may well be a combination of all three.

I shall try a full 50 game test with your deck, and I will post the results. If my success rate is significantly higher than 52% then 2) is clearly a factor. If my results are around 52%, then we are probably looking at a combination of 1) and 3).

-Silent Requiem

[Lejay]

I don't understand. Do you need 50 games to see that twincast + land is better than 2x cryptic command in a goldfish mode ? I need about 0 games.

[Seraphus]

I think that everybody is confusing about the name of the deck, because with the amount of players play by their selfs in goldfishing mode the name of the deck will became SOLITARY instead of solidarity...
I never see improvement on magic by playing by myself or any person playing vs an empty chair (in fact those who did play against an empty chair usually live in "especial" places :laugh: )...
Anyway, i keep what i said Repeal maindecked is amazing and very needed against merfolks, burn, enchantress, zoo, goblins, COUNTERBALANCE, etc...

[Brad Herbig]

Though I agree goldfishing is not equivalent to playing against a deck with disruption, it provides a baseline of seeing if the deck can actually combo off on turn 4 if they don't have disruption. If it can't do that fairly consistently, then there is not way you will be able to consistently go off through hate.

@Silent Requiem:

I may as well have been on a luck streak, but I still feel like a deck as consistent as Solidarity should be able to combo more than 52% of the time. Just make sure to use Brainstorm + Fetch/Impulse/FoI to get rid of dead cards, Meditate before you Impulse midcombo so you know what to pick, etc. I don't know if you've seen the Solidarity primer boards, but they have some good tips on playing it there that have really helped me become better.

http://solidarityprimer.proboards.com/index.cgi?

[Silent Requiem]

Right, this will probably be the last data set I post. Partly because it is pretty exhausting playing a 50 game set, even gold fishing, and partly because all I seem to be doing is calling my own playskill into question.

Speaking of exhaustion, I have noticed that my first 10-15 games tend to go really well, and then I start going down hill. It may simply be that I am not as alert on game 50 as I am on game 1. Or it may just be coincidence.

So, I played 50 games with -2 Cryptic, +1 land, +1 Twincast. Overall win percentage was 58%, or 29 games out of 50.

I recorded reasons for my 21 losses, and they were as follows:
Couldn't find High Tide - 8 games (16%)
Couldn't find four land - 8 games (16%)
Drew into too many lands/dead cards - 5 games (10%)

When I say I couldn't find Tide/land, this does not include games where I went off successfully despite the disadvantage (ie, on 3 lands, etc).

I also tracked my "swing", that is my best and worst percentages after the halfway mark (25 games). At best, I was winning 70% of my games, and at worst 50%.

I actually cast Twincast in 13 games, and I won all but 1 of those games. Correlation =/= causation, of course, but it is worth noting.

Anyway, I'm done.

-Silent Requiem

[GoldenCid]

Sorry...but i'm new to the deck and...well i just play spring tide. If there is a specific topic tell me please. My list:

/ Lands
11 [5E] Island (2)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries

// Spells
3 [TE] Meditate
3 [US] Turnabout
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [8E] Merchant Scroll
3 [SOK] Ideas Unbound
4 [UL] Snap
4 [RAV] Remand
4 [FE] High Tide (3)
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [JU] Flash of Insight

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [R] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 1 [OD] Words of Wisdom
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap

[cjva]

You could allways try to search for spring tide? On the bar ontop of this page you will find it third from the right.(i know it works, couse i have been reading the thread about spring tide)

[Seraphus]

Although as you already are in here you could stop playing a deck that is more than dead and start to play Solidarity.... LOL

[Brad Herbig]

Right, this will probably be the last data set I post. Partly because it is pretty exhausting playing a 50 game set, even gold fishing, and partly because all I seem to be doing is calling my own playskill into question.

Speaking of exhaustion, I have noticed that my first 10-15 games tend to go really well, and then I start going down hill. It may simply be that I am not as alert on game 50 as I am on game 1. Or it may just be coincidence.

So, I played 50 games with -2 Cryptic, +1 land, +1 Twincast. Overall win percentage was 58%, or 29 games out of 50.

I recorded reasons for my 21 losses, and they were as follows:
Couldn't find High Tide - 8 games (16%)
Couldn't find four land - 8 games (16%)
Drew into too many lands/dead cards - 5 games (10%)

When I say I couldn't find Tide/land, this does not include games where I went off successfully despite the disadvantage (ie, on 3 lands, etc).

I also tracked my "swing", that is my best and worst percentages after the halfway mark (25 games). At best, I was winning 70% of my games, and at worst 50%.

I actually cast Twincast in 13 games, and I won all but 1 of those games. Correlation =/= causation, of course, but it is worth noting.

Anyway, I'm done.

-Silent Requiem

Thank you for all the testing you are doing. When you actually look at the data you provided, Solidarity actually is looking pretty consistent when you go off. 32% of the times where you "lost" (by not having high tide or enough lands), it was because you didn't have the resources to start going off. If you have enough Forces and Remands, you can stall enough to not go off until several turns later, especially considering a turn 4 win for most nonstorm decks is pretty fast. The extra time most decks give you will definitely increase your percentage.

[Silent Requiem]

I suppose when you look at it that way, the numbers make a bit more sense.

Nearly 1/3rd (32%) of the time, Solidarity is NOT ready to go off on turn 4. However, when it IS ready to go off on turn 4 (the other 68% of the time - 4 lands in play, High Tide in hand), it does so successfully 85% of the time.

Hmm. It would seem that I need to routinely record more than just my wins v losses for the numbers to make sense.

-Silent Requiem

Edit: Assuming these numbers are generally correct, it would seem that we are not as fast as we like to think. Given that the combo rate is pretty good at the moment, I'm going to finally try switching out FoI for PtD, to see if I can improved the readiness rate.

[Brad Herbig]

The thing about Solidarity is that you don't actually go off in the game until you are about to lose, most of the time. When you look at most of the decks we would face, they aren't winning on their fourth, or even fifth/sixth turn. We don't really need to win faster, we just need to fight though hate.

[Seraphus]

The thing about Solidarity is that you don't actually go off in the game until you are about to lose, most of the time. When you look at most of the decks we would face, they aren't winning on their fourth, or even fifth/sixth turn. We don't really need to win faster, we just need to fight though hate.

Finally someone got the conclusion on how the deck works...
Now instead of posting goldfishing results and statistics can we all start post statistics and results form actually matches ups?

[dyzzy]

I know you want to wait until the last minute possible before comboing off, but is this always the right choice? I mean, against some decks, aren't you just giving them more chances to draw answers?

I mean, I'm not saying it's wrong (I completely understand that's the point of the deck) but playing against Thresh the other day, both games he had a hand full of counters when I waited for the last attack to combo off.

[Seraphus]

I know you want to wait until the last minute possible before comboing off, but is this always the right choice? I mean, against some decks, aren't you just giving them more chances to draw answers?

I mean, I'm not saying it's wrong (I completely understand that's the point of the deck) but playing against Thresh the other day, both games he had a hand full of counters when I waited for the last attack to combo off.

When fighting a counter war the most important is land dropping every turn, so you will need a lot of turns to have enough mana to play around counters and or sacrificing the high tide because the spell you always want to resolve is the draw card specially when it's meditate. Although you would find out that the clock that some control decks use is so slow (i am talking about landstill for example) that you can play to either wait until the last moment or to wait for the perfect hand, but in cases like those you mentioned you need to use some cards to fake the combo - and this is when Solidarity becomes active instead of pro-active - and after that combo out for real because without standstill theres no mass draw card for counter decks and for Solidarity advantaged Meditate does the trick as well as Flash of Insight (but go on everybody who's saying that FoI sucks and Peer is better by all means keep playing like that)...
Summing it up illusion and a good poker face plus the card advantaged will win the game.

[Silent Requiem]

I know you want to wait until the last minute possible before comboing off, but is this always the right choice? I mean, against some decks, aren't you just giving them more chances to draw answers?

I mean, I'm not saying it's wrong (I completely understand that's the point of the deck) but playing against Thresh the other day, both games he had a hand full of counters when I waited for the last attack to combo off.

This is an excellent point that is often oversimplified when people bang on about waiting until the last possible minute. I have encountered 3 instances where you want to go off sooner rather than later:

1) Their card filtering is better than yours. This often happens against Countertop. A resolved Counterbalance shuts down your cantrips, and Top + Confidant gives them 2 filtered cards per turn against your one topdeck. Clearly, the longer you wait the worse it is going to get.

2) They have multiple counters. This often happens games 2 & 3 against Merfolk, after they have sided in Mindbreak Trap on top of their maindeck FoW, Daze & Cursecatchers. I have won several tournament games because I did not wait to go off. This is because I knew that my first attempt would be defeated, but I needed a turn to draw their counters.

3) They can also win at instant speed. This often happens against Burn. If I play a Tide and he drops a lethal Bolt/Fireblast on it, it might as well have been countered. If you wait until you see lethal, you may find that his entire hand effectively consists of counters.


Flash of Insight (but go on everybody who's saying that FoI sucks and Peer is better by all means keep playing like that)

I don't see anybody saying FoI sucks. We all know just how broken it can be. It is, however, slow. It requires a significant mana investment upfront for a later benefit. In matchups where the game is long, this is very worthwhile, but even Burn variants are capable of turn 3 wins these days (as I discovered last night... still won though :D), so many people are looking at the less powerful but faster PtD. It's sort of the same reason that we play Opt over the more powerful Ancestral Vision.

-Silent Requiem

[Seraphus]

I try to resist to not make this comment: Ancestral vision??????????? What the HELL?!

Visions is sorcery only playable by suspend!!!! Dude please try to review the deck mechanic for your own good...

Regards...

[Silent Requiem]

I try to resist to not make this comment: Ancestral vision??????????? What the HELL?!

Visions is sorcery only playable by suspend!!!! Dude please try to review the deck mechanic for your own good...

Regards...

Wow. You really missed the point, didn't you?

Anyway, I have a query for the community. I have been testing PtD in the FoI slot, and I want to run it at a small tournament this weekend.

Is it worth dropping one of the maindeck Brain Freeze for another Remand?

My thought was that I can't use Brain Freeze to draw any more, so I probably want to have as few as possible in the maindeck. But is one (maindeck - another in the wishboard) to few?

-Silent Requiem

[Vacrix]

Wow. You really missed the point, didn't you?

Anyway, I have a query for the community. I have been testing PtD in the FoI slot, and I want to run it at a small tournament this weekend.

Is it worth dropping one of the maindeck Brain Freeze for another Remand?

My thought was that I can't use Brain Freeze to draw any more, so I probably want to have as few as possible in the maindeck. But is one (maindeck - another in the wishboard) to few?

-Silent Requiem

I did this in my build. It increases the chances of timewalking into another turn. You have to draw quite a few cards though if you are to then play brainfreeze + remand, or cunning wish --> brainfreeze + remand. I haven't run into any problems finding the win con though once I go off but I could just be getting lucky. I also run Tolarian Wind in my board. It's great when you run into 3 land and Force off your Meditate.

[dyzzy]

This might be a silly question, but has anyone tried Rewind in the side? I feel like it could help to play around counters... or maybe not?

[Brad Herbig]

Wow. You really missed the point, didn't you?

Anyway, I have a query for the community. I have been testing PtD in the FoI slot, and I want to run it at a small tournament this weekend.

Is it worth dropping one of the maindeck Brain Freeze for another Remand?

My thought was that I can't use Brain Freeze to draw any more, so I probably want to have as few as possible in the maindeck. But is one (maindeck - another in the wishboard) to few?

-Silent Requiem

I would keep 2 brainfreeze main, just because finding one is easier, you have another that you can dig for if one gets removed, and it is also good against tutors, such as Mystical Tutor for Ad Nauseum.

[Van Phanel]

I would keep 2 brainfreeze main, just because finding one is easier, you have another that you can dig for if one gets removed, and it is also good against tutors, such as Mystical Tutor for Ad Nauseum.

Going down to one Brain Freeze makes perfect sense if you are playing without FoI and if you have the second Brain Freeze in the board.

[Seraphus]

Going down to one Brain Freeze makes perfect sense if you are playing without FoI and if you have the second Brain Freeze in the board.

And against discard decks what can you do when your opponent have you discard the main brain freeze? And the lack of free slots on sb?

[flrn]

Going down to one Brain Freeze makes perfect sense if you are playing without FoI and if you have the second Brain Freeze in the board.

I never had problems finding that 1 Brain Freeze Mid Combo, even with FoI main. I play 1 main and 1 in the board.

[cjva]

I never had problems finding that 1 Brain Freeze Mid Combo, even with FoI main. I play 1 main and 1 in the board.

How often do you use Freeze on your own deck?

[flrn]

How often do you use Freeze on your own deck?

I would say as often as i did with 2 Brain Freeze main. I mean i got Remand for my Brain Freeze, when i mill myself.

[Brad Herbig]

I prefer having the two Brainfreezes mainboard, just so I can combo off with less storm even when I'm using remands as countermagic/timewalks. I also am a bit fan of FoI, so that might also be a reason.

[Seraphus]

Divert versus Disrupt anyone?

[cjva]

Divert versus Disrupt anyone?

I'v played em. And the only time Divert was better then Disrupt was when people started to play around my disrupts in my local meta.

Guess Divert can be nice if you expect to face lots of vindicates, hymns, thoughtsieze, sinkholes aso. But more or less disrupt is better, thanks to the cantrip.

Right now im playing Mindbreak Trap in that slots, and I'm perfectly happy with that.

[Seraphus]

I'v played em. And the only time Divert was better then Disrupt was when people started to play around my disrupts in my local meta.

Guess Divert can be nice if you expect to face lots of vindicates, hymns, thoughtsieze, sinkholes aso. But more or less disrupt is better, thanks to the cantrip.

Right now im playing Mindbreak Trap in that slots, and I'm perfectly happy with that.

And against Eva Green what do you do? I am losing a lot against it...

[cjva]

Last time i played Eva i lost as well. But that was thanks to 4 resolved meditates who gave me different setups of lands, fows and maybee a cantrip. Drawing 16 cards didn't give me anything relevant.

My regular plan against Eva is to drop fetch to the extent i can and remand/Fow their LD/hymn until i get to 4 lands and can go off safely. Protecting lands above 4 is not that relevant.

They present a pretty slow clock, but my deck without SB disrupt has a weeker mu to them then regular Solidarity. My 19'th land might make up for some of the loss, but not all.

My main reason for having Mindbreak Trap in the board instead of Disrupt is that my meta is bluebased with lots of aggro-control and lots of combo. Some regular aggro as zoo and goblin are here as well, but its very likely for me to play 5 rounds of swiss without facing a single straight aggro strategy. Eva green is 1 player who plays once every month or so (and we have 2 legacy tournaments/week in Gothenburg).

[Van Phanel]

I'v played em. And the only time Divert was better then Disrupt was when people started to play around my disrupts in my local meta.

Guess Divert can be nice if you expect to face lots of vindicates, hymns, thoughtsieze, sinkholes aso. But more or less disrupt is better, thanks to the cantrip.

Right now im playing Mindbreak Trap in that slots, and I'm perfectly happy with that.

Why exactly would you play Mndbreak Trap over Spell Pierce?

[cjva]

Why exactly would you play Mndbreak Trap over Spell Pierce?

Spell Pierce takes care of 1 counter from their side. Trap take care of three.

Often when we play against blue control and if they are of to a slow start the stack looks something like this when we go of.

1: High Tide
2: (them) Counter
3: High Tide/reset/card draw
4: (them) Counter
5: Reset/card draw
6: (them) counter
7: Mindbreak trap. Resolve our part of the stack, empty yours.

I'v been playing 3 Traps in the board lately, and I'v come to the conclusion that its the total Nuts. (i often board out 2 FoW, couse FoW is bad card economy, and trap is good economy).

The nice part with trap is that they either are forced to let us resolve spells, or having 4+ counters in their hand when we only have 1 trap.

[Brad Herbig]

I would probably play some split of Mindbreak Trap and Spell Pierce. My reasoning for this is that Mindbreak Trap is really effective when they actually counter three spells. However, if they counter any less than that, it is much worse at its hardcasting cost (though still pretty decent). Spell Pierce, on the other hand, is useful for countering hate (e.g. Counterbalance) precombo, while it is still a semi useful counterspell during combo. The only problem I would have with Spell Pierce is against blue decks, because our High Tides give them extra mana too, which might be dis-synergistic with paying 2 for Spell Pierce.

Overall, I would probably play one Mindbreak Trap as a wish target, and 3 Spell Pierce/Disrupt (I don't know whether the higher countering cost is better than the cantrip, or vice-versa).

[cjva]

I would play Disrupt every day of the week over spell pierce.

Sometimes you have "free spells" from them, when they play a Goyf of something in order to speed up the clock. In that case they only need to counter 2 spells on the stack for mindbreak trap to be useful.

But mindbreak trap are of most use when you play against some other slow deck. They build up their hand with different versions of counterspells, and we build it up with cards we need in order to go off.

It is also a nice addition against ANT, Belcher and other rely fast combodecks.

What i would never to thou is having it as a wish target. The good part of the trap is that it counters for free. Having the need to wish for it (even thou i have done it pre-combo in g1 in order to guarantee my win) is far from an optimal play.

Saying that. I use mindbreak trap mostly becouse my meta is infested with blue based aggro control and combo (ANT and between 2-5 belcher in a 20-30 man tournament). Had there been more zoo and other decks (more like what i can see in the European or American meta) i might not have played it. If you don't have to fear ~3 counterspells when going of, mindbreak trap aint that good, and disrupt might be better.

It is as always when discussing the non-wish board of our SB, a metacall.

The last 2 tournaments i'v played i'v almost gone X-0-0 much thanks to the traps. What's keeping me from succeding in the task has been bad mulligan decissions.

[abbeyroad]

I was bored this morning so i created a few formulas that might be useful during tournaments:
Using the brainfreeze + flash of insight trick:
D = #current cards in deck. 60 - cards in grave - cards in hand - cards removed from the game.
U = #Blue cards in graveyard
Z = Storm count

D - U - 5Z ≤ 0

If this statement is true you have approximately a 100% chance (and greater if the number is less than 0) of being able to organize your deck with the Brainfreeze + Flash of insight trick

Formulas concerning max. mana currently available: L = land R = number of resets in hand T = number of turnabouts in hand X = currently tapped lands

0 hightides active: L(1 + R + T) - X - 2R - 4T = Total mana available
1 hightide active: 2[L(1 + R + T) - X - R - 2T] = Total mana available
2 hightides active: L(3 + 3R + 3T) - 3X - 2R - 4T = Total mana available
3 hightides active: L(4 + 4R + 4T) - 4X - 2R - 4T = Total mana available
4 hightides active: L(5 + 5R + 5T) - 5X - 2R - 4T = Total mana available

Chance of getting card you need formula:
X = Cards in deck
C = Copies of card(s) you need in deck
H = Current drawing/seaching power i.e. if you had 2 impulses this would be 8
P = Cards you need that you know are on bottom of library
Q = Cards you don't need that you know are on bottom of library

%chance = 100H((C - P)/(X - Q))

note: if you don't remember cards on the bottom of your deck or your in a situation where the cards on the bottom of your deck are irrelevant just ignore the P and Q part

If you could program these formulas into a TI-83,84,89 during a tournament I think these could come in handy, especially the first one.

[Seraphus]

WOw :eek:

Man you can not use notes written before game start during a game and that count as notes!!!

OMG LOL!!!!

X = you
Y = formulas

X+Y= Game loss

[cjva]

Post like abbeyroad's make me love magic. =)

Anyways, the first one seems pretty easy to keep in your head, and seems pretty easy to calculate in head as well.

But if you need to freeze to FoI and stack your deck its pretty easy to just put all copies targeting yourself, and then resolve one copy at a time until you reace FoI, after that count blue cards in gy and cards in deck in order to see if you need to resolve more copies.

I oftan cast brain freeze with the top and the bottom copy on the stack targeting myself, and then spinn from there.

[abbeyroad]

@seraphus
First: sorry wasn't quite sure if formulas are allowed during tournament games.
Two: If notes aren't allowed all the formulas (baring the first) are null except for online games and possibly casual; however, the first formula still has practical application. It is easy to memorize and all calculations should be easy to do in one's head. There are definitely a lot of times where i do not know if my storm count is high enough to do the BF/FOI trick and with the formula it would be quick and easy to determine.

[Seraphus]

This may be your play method but Solidarity is the most complexed deck in the hole format...
Adding this calculation will turn playing this deck impossible...
You have to test harder and harder, hours after hours, knowing rules and knowing the metagame and other cards this yes will put you on the path of victory and success...
This is my little peace of advice...

Regards.

[abbeyroad]

This may be your play method but Solidarity is the most complexed deck in the hole format...
Adding this calculation will turn playing this deck impossible...
You have to test harder and harder, hours after hours, knowing rules and knowing the metagame and other cards this yes will put you on the path of victory and success...
This is my little peace of advice...

Regards.

I'm going to be a bit pedantic here: it's "piece" not "peace" and it's "whole" not "hole." Your last sentence is a monster of a run-on and the ellipses makes your post annoying to read.
Also, the patronizing tone of your posts is irritating, and you honestly don't have too much to justify that tone.
Past that: Yes, I agree play testing is important and I have done quite a bit of that as well as quite a bit of reading through posts on here. However, the first formula above makes the deck easier to play (not more difficult). For example, let's say you are at a point where your storm count is six, you know you have 44 cards in your deck, and you have 9 blue cards in grave. Let's also say you have a reset in hand, but you would rather use it after the BF/FOI trick if possible. With the formula you would have a systematic way to determine this.
Moreover, one of the problems with play testing is that you often can't be too certain unless you have the mathematics (or some other type of analysis) to support your point. Just because every time you do X you win Y% of games does not mean that the play is necessarily good. If a systematic method could be developed for determining how good a play was then you can improve and not make the same mistake the next game. I believe that if one notates each game and goes back and analyzes each game systematically one will improve as a player and gain greater insight into the deck. Simply playing a bunch of games will improve you as a player to a point (imho), but you will reach a plateau where thorough post analysis of games become necessary (formulas aid you in this endeavor).