[Deck] Solidarity

[rupus]

I tried cutting opt for visions and didn't like it at all because I was having trouble hitting land drops (although it was INSANE at times, nothing like ancestral recalling in legacy). I also a agree with seraphus about cryptic. I find myself missing it quite often, it really does everything you could want but seraphus is right, 4cc is a pretty big issue. I'm glad to see Team America leaving the meta because I found that to be basically unwinnable, maybe seraphus or someone could tell me some secret I'm missing in that MU. In that same vein, has anyone done any testing vs NO RUG? That's really the one popular deck right now that I have no experience with. I think that being a tempo deck it might be similar to TA but probably not as hard because of the lack of hymn. Also what's up with flusterstorm costing so much? All the online stores want $20 for it. I'll probably just buy 4 commander decks to get my set.

Also, are you playing with wishes again seraphus? In some of your last posts it sounds like you put them back in. Also, did you ever decide if you liked three wishes? I remember a while back you had them in a list and I tested them and thought they were pretty good but I like the cunning wish builds better. Here my most recent list (no sb because I change it all the time):

12x Island
2x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
4x Brainstorm
4x Opt
4x Reset
3x High Tide
3x Mental Misstep
4x Impulse
3x Cunning Wish
3x Meditate
3x Turnabout
3x Force of Will
2x Flusterstorm
2x Visions of Beyond
2x Flash of Insight
1x Brain Freeze
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
SIDEBOARD
1x High Tide
1x Brain Freeze
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Meditate

My biggest issue right now is what counters to play. As you can see I cut remand and cryptic. I've tried a million combinations but nine of them feel right. This is the best one I've found so far but something still feels wrong about it. I would really like to see your most recent list seraphus and also hear your thoughts about what counters to run.

[Seraphus]

Hum we have much to debate about your list (remind that sometimes it might seam as thought i am criticize you but it isn't)...

Remand (beside the points i made in my last post makes clearly that its a crucial card i'll try to point out more examples to you): Your list has a crucial flaw: yes its true that you can deal with sorceries and counters with fulsterstorm maindecked but Remand can do it to, and even better (sometimes), it deals with creatures artifacts enchantments buying you that so many times needed delay on your opponent clock...

You can still use the flusterstorm maindeck, i for an instance use MM, but that's an option - personal risk or bet if you want (that even i don't know if it's the best, and yes i already thought of put the flusters md and lose the MM)...

Other very important thing is only 1 BF isn´t near enough much more 1 BF and no Remand. This will make lose to Emrakull often and the use of Visions of Beyond as an Ancestral is nearly none, not to mention you can also fizzle more often. (Now you'll mention that you have BSZ in maindeck) Yes you have Zenith main deck plus another in the sb, this, in my opinion is wasting spaces... And its not necessary we don't play a zenith based deck, in extremes cases we play a BF+zenith deck and that should always be channeled through the Cunning Wish (that's why its irreplaceable).

The Cunning Wish story: Once upon a time in a kingdom far far away theres a princess, very hot... oh wait thats the wrong story... Summing it upon: Wish is necessary because our dear deck relies on the power of choice (this is too much Matrix for me) and this means that the percentage of get a card should be raised into its maximums potential and the fact we need a toolbox for some situations that our search engine (impulses, opt/VoB, FoI, Brainstorm) can but shouldn't be wasted to search for, we simply use Cunning Wish.

By now you should understand that BSZ is useless maindeck because by the time you will use it in a way that can be profitable you can do the Wish - Zenith. In matches where the clock its rather fast its impossible to use it without combo - a 4 cmc cantrip is worthless...


Later i'll continue for now i have to go...

[rupus]

Hum we have much to debate about your list (remind that sometimes it might seam as thought i am criticize you but it isn't)...

Remand (beside the points i made in my last post makes clearly that its a crucial card i'll try to point out more examples to you): Your list has a crucial flaw: yes its true that you can deal with sorceries and counters with fulsterstorm maindecked but Remand can do it to, and even better (sometimes), it deals with creatures artifacts enchantments buying you that so many times needed delay on your opponent clock...


My problem with remand is that it is best at stopping countermagic and I keep getting owned my discard. Remanding a T2 hymn doesn't help all that much plus its impossible on the draw. Hymn decks are on the decline though and remand seems awesome vs UW Mystic decks and blue decks without discard in general. Remanding natural order seems pretty cool too. I think I'll probably take your advice here and throw them back in.



You can still use the flusterstorm maindeck, i for an instance use MM, but that's an option - personal risk or bet if you want (that even i don't know if it's the best, and yes i already thought of put the flusters md and lose the MM)...


I thinly MM and flusterstorm fill 2 pretty different roles here. MM stops early plays so you live long enough (lackey, vial, nacatl) while flusterstorm hit problem sorceries (hymn mostly) as well as controlling the stack during your combo and trumping other combo decks. I don't think it needs to be one or the other but your would probably need to cut back on your forces and remands if you want both.



Other very important thing is only 1 BF isn´t near enough much more 1 BF and no Remand. This will make lose to Emrakull often and the use of Visions of Beyond as an Ancestral is nearly none, not to mention you can also fizzle more often. (Now you'll mention that you have BSZ in maindeck) Yes you have Zenith main deck plus another in the sb, this, in my opinion is wasting spaces... And its not necessary we don't play a zenith based deck, in extremes cases we play a BF+zenith deck and that should always be channeled through the Cunning Wish (that's why its irreplaceable).


I don't like seeing BF until I'm basically done comboing and with 3 wishes and 1 BF I've never really had a problem. I could definitely see going to 2 main but I've never really found myself in a situation where I needed to cast more than 2. Also if I put remand back in there's even less need for more. As for zenith I find myself casting it twice usually, once on myself and then once after they are decked if lethal is on the stack or they have emrakul or whatever. If I need to draw some cards and have plenty of mana a maindeck zenith draws me 3 more than wish for zenith but I guess the difference between 20 and 23 cards isn't that much. The other problem is using up my wishes and not being able to wish for a zenith. I guess the easy answer is go to 4 wishes. I will try cutting the md zenith for now.



The Cunning Wish story: Once upon a time in a kingdom far far away theres a princess, very hot... oh wait thats the wrong story... Summing it upon: Wish is necessary because our dear deck relies on the power of choice (this is too much Matrix for me) and this means that the percentage of get a card should be raised into its maximums potential and the fact we need a toolbox for some situations that our search engine (impulses, opt/VoB, FoI, Brainstorm) can but shouldn't be wasted to search for, we simply use Cunning Wish.


So have you given up on the wishless build? I always preferred wishes but some of the wishless builds looked interesting.



By now you should understand that BSZ is useless maindeck because by the time you will use it in a way that can be profitable you can do the Wish - Zenith. In matches where the clock its rather fast its impossible to use it without combo - a 4 cmc cantrip is worthless...


For wish -> zenith to be better than wish -> meditate you need to have 11 mana but a naturally drawn zenith only needs 8 to be better than wish -> meditate. Just something to think about, but for now I will cut my md zenith.



Later i'll continue for now i have to go...

I'm looking forward to it. Here's a list of things I would like to hear your thoughts on:

What are your thoughts on 3 wishes? There was some talk about it a while back but only in like one post.

What about cryptic? Have you cut it completely?

The toughest matchup I've found is team America. Have you had the same problem? What do you do to make it better?

Would you mind sharing your latest list? I don't think I've seen one from you since the one with noxious revival. Also, I'd be interested to hear how you sideboard because that is really the most difficult thing for me.

BTW, here's the changes I'm trying from my last list:

-4 opt, -2 flusterstorm, -1 zenith
+3 remand, +2 visions, +1 BF, +1 cunning wish

I always hated opt so I figure I will try cutting them for visions. It's probably wrong but we will see. I think a 3/3/3 split of force, mm and remand looks nice on paper but IDK how it will play out. I also would like to squeeze a repeal and/or cryptic or two in there but IDK how. Also, I think 2 BF plus 4 wishes for BF should be plenty but 1 or 3 BF main might be better. I'm seriously considering taking this to gencon indy but I'll probably either panic and default to Merfolk or end up not going. One last thing that I couldn't find when I searched this thread was muddle the mixture. Has that been discussed and dismissed elsewhere? Seems good, but IDK where it would fit. Actually one more thing. I saw some lists a couple pages back that were cutting FoI. What did you guys think about that?

[Silent Requiem]

In my initial testing with Visions of Beyond, I am struck by two things. First, it has no place in current builds. Second, it's going to be absolutely broken in Solidarity one day.


Current builds

To put 20 cards into someone's graveyard reliably you need a storm count of five. This means that Brainfreeze puts 18 cards in the 'yard, and we can reasonably assume that somewhere in the first four turns a couple of other cards have already made it there.

The trouble with that is that six storm is the point at which Brainfreeze-Remand-Brainfreeze reliably becomes lethal. As long as we are playing with Remand, we are almost always better off getting one more storm and simply winning, rather than trying to do clever things with VoB.

My testing, which is still preliminary, shows me that situations where I want to BF-VoB over BF-R-BF are very rare. Equally, there are a non-zero number of games that will be won by having Opt rather than VoB in your hand, whether that is in the early game or post combo. I rarely found myself looking at an Opt and wishing that it was a VoB.


Looking to the future

One day, Solidarity will be a turn 3 deck.

We already know from sorcery speed versions that the High Tide engine can go off on turn 3, and I've won enough games on three lands to know that it's possible. The only thing really holding us back is the inability to assemble the combo at instand speed; where Spiral Tide has Merchant Scroll, the closest we can manage is Lim Dul's Vault, which is card disadvantage and requires a black splash.

Nevertheless, the quality of blue instant draw will slowly improve until turn 3 is the fundamental turn for Solidarity; unbanning Frantic Search would probably get us most of the way there on it's own.

When that happens, many of the cards we use now will be too mana intensive; and BF-R-BF becomes a very expensive play. Equally Remand will become a less valuable card when we do not need to delay our opponent for as long before we can combo off. And we will have less time for counterspells that use the mana we need to assemble our combo.

At that point VoB will become a powerhouse, in large part because we are likely to be pitching cards to Frantic Search and because we are likely to have four maindeck Brainfreeze.

I'm glad I've got a playset, even if they are going to sit in the binder for a while.

-Silent Requiem

[Psychovoid]

Just sharing a few thoughts. Any comments are appreciated.

I don't see how Visions of Beyond will help us in current builds. If you need Brain Freeze to make Visions of Beyond active, then it's no better than Brainstorm. Brainstorm and Brain Freeze together read: "U, draw three cards. Put two lands from your hand on top of your library, put the three cards in top of your library on your graveyard." In fact Brainstorm may be better as it allows you to put a Flash of Insight from your hand in the grave.

Frantic Search would be a huge boost, but I don't think they'll ever unban that card. In fact, Frantic Search just got banned in Pauper Online because it's the nuts.

And I agree that we need better draw or card advantage. Currently we have only Meditate. In a format where people play Tarmogoyf and Jace, casting Impulse (to say nothing about Opt) is underwhelming.

I'm testing 2 Twincasts maindeck. I'm currently liking it. You can Twincast Hymn to Tourach early game, Twincast counters during the first draw/untap in the combo turn, or Twincast Meditates or Reset mid-combo. I'm also testing only 1 Turnabout main deck and 1 Turnabout in the sideboard: I find Turnabout to be too expensive. I'm also packing 4 Divert on the sideboard. I put them in against any deck running discard. It's the nuts. A resolved Divert on a Hymn to Tourach is a win.

About Remand: I think Remand is one of the key enablers in this deck. Most of the times it reads: 1U, both players only play lands on second turn. For a deck that requires time to put lands in play in order to win, I don't think we can get much better than that without a broken card. And it also helps us with the kill. Silent Requiem said we could reach a fundamental turn of three with better cards; but maybe another direction to improve the deck is to get better stalling cards.

About Flash of Insight: This card is the nuts. Seriously. Test it. In tight situations (low on mana or no card draw in hand), Brain Freeze yourself until you get Flash of Insight and enough blue cards in the grave to stack your deck, then proceed to win. I've done this once game 1 and the opponent sided in 4 Tormod's Crypt against me. :) Then game two I proceed to draw 20 cards with Blue Sun's Zenith while he has a Crypt sitting useless on the board.

[Seraphus]

today i'm super lazy and sleepy and don't want to write anything so i'll just say that twincast sucks if you play against someone competent: Do you know that if the original spell is counter twincast copies nothing and fizzle?

Yes everyone who actually play solidarity (i am cranky today) knows that FoI is very good (this is not for you Psychovoid don't be upset)...

Evryone was so "ahahahahahahahahahahahahah Visions of Beyond is amazing blá blá i love justin bieber" sure it is not it's only a reasonable card...

MM over Flusterstorm or vice-versa is a strategy option but if you going to focus your deck on something be consistent on doing it... I pack Repeal, Remand and MM because i think through out my experience that fast matches are the biggest treat to me...


BAH just one last thing try to see VoB as a enabler of "i combo now but not for the kill - maybe to reap of all counters or something and than latley in a late game VoB is a ancestral recall" and that's all going to do something and leave you at peace...

[Psychovoid]

today i'm super lazy and sleepy and don't want to write anything so i'll just say that twincast sucks if you play against someone competent: Do you know that if the original spell is counter twincast copies nothing and fizzle?

I know that, and can adjust my actions accordingly. Consider a hand with High Tide, Reset, Meditate, and Twincast and a board of 4 Islands. I usually cast Reset before Meditate. If the opponent tries to counter the Reset, then you can use Twincast to copy the Reset (so it resolves before the counter). If the opponent lets you untap without trying to counter the Reset, then you cast Meditate and keep the Twincast in hand in case he tries to counter the Meditate. If he tries to counter, you play Twincast in response. If he doesn't try to counter, then you draw 4 and hope you can continue comboing from there.

Of course there are situations where the Twincast is useless (you need something else to go with it), and this is why I only play two.

[GGoober]

To be honest, with combo no longer being as big a powerhouse as it was before MM was printed, I think unbanning Frantic Search isn't all that impossible. It would enable combo/GY-based decks (maybe okay in Reanimator but you probably want to reanimate on turn 2 instead of turn 3). Not all combo decks could fully abuse Frantic Search but Tide decks would be much stronger (in particular Solidarity). With MM around, it's not like Solidarity with Frantic Search can win every game unstoppable. I personally would be fine if Frantic Search being in the format, it won't warp the format the way Mental Misstep did.

Every new set they print has brought more hate to combo than enablers (first they banned MTutor, then printed MM, and Flutterstorm)

[Scordata]

I like twincast. I run one main and one in the sb. Its saved my ass a few times, and I think its inclusion it worthwhile. Not only can you use it as another counterspell, but its an extra copy of whatever you need, like a meditate or reset.

I actually think that this deck is kind of good at the moment. If you know how to manage your cantrips over time then you will usually be ok. I've entered a few small tourneys with it latley, and only lose to people running spell pierce in addition to hard counters. Oftentimes I just combo off in response to their brainstorm and let that do the work for me.

[rupus]

I know FoI is the nuts but I saw some lists a few pages back without it and so I was just wondering if those turned out to be successful.

After playing around with visions I think cutting opt for it was definitely wrong. There's some cute plays like freezing yourself then casting visions before FoI (too bad there's no way to stack it so you let FoI resolve then still draw 3 off visions) but most of the time it is meh. Putting one in the board as a wish target might be cool but I suspect that it would be a wasted slot 90% of the time.

I think playing misstep, remand, and repeal without force is interesting but then it seems like you are leaning rather heavily on remand and wish -> flusterstorm to win stack wars. Something like hymn or even Mr. Teeg is going to be more difficult to deal with as well. I don't feel safe without forces but its something for me to test.

@twincast
Why is it bad, seraphus? I've never tried it out but it seems like a decent option.

@frantic search
Maybe after land tax is unbanned.

@my list
-4 visions, -1 cunning wish
+4 opt, +1 cryptic command

The cryptic could be any number of things but I like that cryptic does so much. Other things I considered is just keeping the 4th wish, repeal, flusterstorm, visions, three wishes, muddle the mixture, or twincast.

@team America
Is twincast and/or divert or misdirection enough to improve the matchup?

Lastly, I have a few card ideas to throw out there.

Muddle the mixture: this would have to take the place of a counter and I don't think its better than remand force or misstep but I just wanted to know if anyone has tried it.

Three wishes: the builds without cunning wish ran these as meditate 5-8 but I wonder if they have a place even alongside cunning wish. They are far more mana efficient than wish -> meditate. The problem is what to cut.

Predict: this is a nice card because it can help get back lost card advantage and remove chaff from the top. My problem is that it would probably take opt's spot but without opt it becomes a lot worse.

Lots to think about. Also, I have no idea where to start building a sideboard, not to mention how to sideboard. Anyone help?

[Psychovoid]

I dropped Cryptic Command from my list because in a meta where I rarely meet Counterbalance, it seems like win-more. We need four lands in play to cast Cryptic, at which point we can just combo-off in response to a must-counter threat. I know casting it feels great, but whenever you get to the point where you can actually cast it without the need to go off (e.g., no lethal damage on the board), you're already winning anyways. It's good to bounce hate in the form of permanents like Chalice or Cannonist though.

I've never tested Muddle the Mixture, but Transmute can only be played as a sorcery: it's dead mid-combo and I don't like the idea of tapping out on my turn to tutor a Reset. Am I missing something?

I think the deck would benefit from some card advantage pre-combo. We currently only have card filters (Impulse, Opt, Brainstorm). Predict could help, but we only have Brainstorm to stack the top of our deck. Accumulated Knowledge isn't good on the first few turns. Other options I've seen in older posts include Thirst for Knowledge and Words of Wisdom, but these just look bad. Isn't there a 2-mana-cost blue instant that draws two? Like Hymn to Jacerach?

[Spigore]

Hi Seraphus,

Reading this topic after a nice 8 days break made me roflol a lot from your posts.
Will speak on MSN, got lots to tell, lol!

IMHO, Cryptic Command is still a very good card to play, although it's a 4cmc spell, it's diversity is very powerful and therefor should be played as a 1-of in the maindeck!
I haven't tried VoB yet, and I'm still not drooling all over it. I will have to playtest on this one.

Regarding the counterpackage discussion; the best way to go for is a balanced mix between FoW+MM. Ofcourse Remand should always be played MD! A bit of bounce and boardcontrol (Cryptic, Repeal, or even a Turnabout) can make you rely less on your counterpackage, thus saving it for the counterwars.

One very major thing, especially on this deck, is that the more you play, the better you will become! There's probably no other deck that require even more anticipation and manipulation than Solidarity.



PS. NO-RUG is a decent matchup, mainly depending on the counterwar. It's a fine matchup to test your plays and think things over!. A good friend of mine plays NO-RUG and he knows how to play vs Solidarity. Counterwar is everything here!

[Psychovoid]

Infinite Loop?

I would like to throw some ideas here to see if more brain power can improve them. One of the things I liked about Spiral Tide is that it shuffles the graveyard back into the library, allowing you to cast High Tide, Meditate, and Turnabout a bazillion times and generate ridiculous amounts of mana. I thought about how we could achieve the same thing in Solidarity. I came up with a different idea (haven't found discussion of related cards in the Solidarity threads) that I would like your opinion on. I'm currently convinced that what I'll present is strictly worse than a classical Solidarity build, but maybe we can make it better.

The first card I thought about using was Mnemonic Nexus to shuffle the graveyard back into the library. Playing Mnemonic Nexus mid-combo has a few upsides: (1) You do not discard your hand. (2) The first spells that we play when we combo off are the best spells to keep us going; so shuffling your graveyard back into your library increases the density of pro-combo cards in the deck. The downside is that Mnemonic Nexus requires us to keep at least one drawing card before we play it, and it costs 4 mana.

Mnemonic Nexus could enable us to remove Flash of Insight and Brain Freeze from the deck and win like Spiral Tide: casting a huge Blue Sun's Zenith on the opponent. Removing Flash of Insight and Brain Freeze may be desirable as these cards are suboptimal pre-combo, so reducing their number in the deck could open slots and allow us to play a more control-oriented build. [c.f. 1]

An alternative to Mnemonic Nexus is to use Eldrazi to shuffle the graveyard back into the library. Doing this requires that we keep Brain Freeze in the main deck (we mill ourselves and have the Eldrazi anti-reanimator trigger shuffle the graveyard back into the library); but Brain Freeze also costs two mana instead of Mnemonic Nexus' 4 and is a win condition.

Another thing to think about is how the infinite-loop approach would work on the Cunning Wish-less version of the deck.

To close, maybe this infinite loop idea is just win-more; in which case we should dismiss it straight away. However, I think that freeing up slots in the deck currently reserved for Flash of Insight and Brain Freeze (and potentially Cunning Wish) might allow us to play a more control-oriented build that gives us more time to drop lands and build a stronger hand (e.g., 6 lands and 7 cards in hand). Also, as I said earlier, I'm convinced that the idea is strictly inferior to current Solidarity builds as presented. I'm throwing it in here to see if additional ideas come out of constructive discussion or to have you guys strengthen my resolution that it's a bad idea.

[1] Removing Brain Freeze from the deck makes Brainstorm worse (maybe we could add 2 Peer Through Depths to cast after Brainstorm to put lands on bottom of library).

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

There is a 2 mana, CONDITIONAL draw 2: Predict. Which can be rigged with Brainstorm, or their tutor, or Noxious Revival (on either player). At worst it's a draw 1, mill 1 (which is stinky) but you still get about a 20% hit rate from naming lands in some matchups.

Looking at 1CC U instants, any discussion on working in Dream Salvage? Seems like if you are going to put in the work for either VoB or Accumulate Knowledge, you get much more payoff with a 2 card combo involving Dream Salvage.

As for the Mnemonic Nexus idea, I don't see any advantage of doing recursion that way compared to Noxious Revival.

[rupus]

@Muddle the mixture
I didn't realize transmute was sorcery. Scratch that idea.

@Cryptic command
I really like having one in the main. Wish -> cryptic is expensive plus you probably have a better wish target anyways. Cryptic is good vs counterbalance but it does so much more. It fogs vs aggro, buys time with bounce and counter + draw generates CA. That being said it is a very flexible spot. Repeal would be my second choice I think.

@CA
I forgot opt doesn't work with predict like I want it to. Still that's probably your best option. Words of wisdom was in some old school lists but its not really CA and was dropped. AK is slow but wouldn't be awful in a very control metagame. Three wishes is another option but only good during the combo. Also lol at hymn to Jace. Sign in Jace is probably better though.

@Counter package
3/3/3 Split of force, misstep, and remand with a single cryptic has been the best I've found so far. Silent requiem had some success with the classic 4 force 4 remand with a cryptic (I think). Seems pretty meta dependent. The thing I'm most conc erned about is whether or not remand needs to be a 4 of and whether or not repeal needs a spot.

@NO RUG
Seems difficult but not unwinnable or even necessarily unfavorable. Team America is the matchup I have nightmares about. Discard, counters and a quick clock is brutal. More on this later.

@Nexus
I don't think it will work. It's card disadvantage, expensive, and doesn't produce mana or manipulate your draws. Time spiral's ability to reshuffle isn't neadrly as important as its drawing and mana production. I mean its a D7 that nets mana. That's pretty insane. Our best draw spell is a D4 (not counting large BSZ'S). Also, like jiazhouhuaqiao said noxious revival is probably better at recursion but its been tried and discarded. Too bad call to mind isn't an instant.

@Dream salvage
What combo are you talking about? The only discard in blue I can think about is Amnesia which is a sorcery or tinker for memory jar (lol even that is sorcery speed).

@Sideboarding
HALP! But seriously here is my board and plans. I fail at sideboarding with any deck but especially this one so please help me not suck.

Wishes for the combo
1 High tide
1 Brain freeze
1 Blue suns zenith
1 Meditate

Toolbox wishes
1 Echoing truth
1 Hibernation
1 Ravenous trap
1 Pact of negation

Other
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Divert

Vs NO RUG
-3 Force
+3 Flusterstorm
Counterwars are key according to Spigore. I think Flusterstorm is better at winning those than force plus they don't have real CA so their forces are plus CA for you. I was worried about progenitus but I think wish -> hibernation and cryptic's tapping (turnabout too) is reasonable defense.

Vs UW Mystic
-1 brainfreeze, -1 opt
+2 surgical extraction
They tend to run misstep, force and spell snare only so counter wars aren't as important hence no flusterstorm. Extraction hits counters and they are light on wincons (imagine extraction on mystic and Jace). I think there should be plenty of time to dig for a wish or brainfreeze and with no eldrazi multiple freezes aren't needed. Opt is mostly because I needed 1 more thing. It might be nice to leave in to bait missteps though. In that case I would cut cryptic instead but cryptic does serious work here.

Vs Fishies
-3 Force
+3 Flusterstorm
Same as NO RUG really except that they are more likely to have more counters post board and even less must counter spells.

Vs Zoo
-2 Force
+2 Divert
Force is pretty much useless and divert is the best thing I have (diverting a bolt to a Nacatl is pretty cool). Force is so bad I might even cut the 3rd one for echoing truth but I'm not sure.

Vs Landstill (mostly BUG but UWx is similar)
-1 Cryptic, -1 Force, -1 Brainfreeze
+3 Flusterstorm
I want more counters here than mystic because they tend to have more counters. Brainfreeze is the sake as with mystic. Cryptic's only real target is Jace (both for bounce and countering) so I don't like it here. Taking out the other forces for 2 extractions might be correct but I think the extra counters might be more valuable.

Vs Maverick
-2 Force
+2 Extraction
This is only for vengevine builds. Otherwise I wouldn't make any changes because all the other cards I would want need to stay in the board for wishes (truth and hibernation). Honestly I've never played against this (with any deck not just solidarity) but a midrange creature strategy seems like it should be pretty easy. Although wish -> truth is the only way to deal with Mr. Teeg. But since the don't have a lot of must answer threats as far as I know I can save my counters for their hate.

Vs Bant
I'm stuck on this one especially because there's so many variants. I think -3 force +3 flusterstorm for versions with force and no changes otherwise.

Vs Team America
-5 ???
+3 flusterstorm, +2 divert
I think force can probably come out but I don't know. As for the other 2 maybe an opt and a cryptic. I have never won a game vs them before so this matchup scares me a lot. It's the one I need the most help with.

Vs Discard.dec (suicide variants, deadguy ale, etc.)
-3 force, -1 cryptic
+2 flusterstorm, +2 divert
I don't know how good misstep is here especially vs deadguy so that might need to come out over force. Cryptic isn't that awesome either. Bringing in all 3 flusterstorms might be right but I don't think it is THAT awesome here and I wouldn't want to take anything else out. If flusterstorm is better than I think here I would probably cut a remand for the third one.

Vs Hivemind
-3 force
+3 flusterstorm
The key is to let a hive mind resolve so I don't care about forcing anything. That might be incorrect though because if they show Emrakul all I can do I cryptic or turnabout to buy a turn.

Vs Tendrils storm (TES, ANT, DDFT, etc)
-1 Cryptic, -1 force, -1 turnabout
+3 flusterstorm
I want missteps for xantid swarm, chants, and discard. Cryptic is way too slow here. Opt and turnabout are a bit slow as well (especially if I piggy back on their storm I may not have enough lands for turnabout to work nicely. Force isn't as back breaking as my other counters but maybe cutting a remand instead is better (or opt even and max out on counters). I don't know if I am over generalizing this archetype either and need different plans but the plan vs all of them seems similar.

Vs Dredge
-1 Cryptic, -1 Force
+2 Extraction
Cryptic is obviously slow. IDK about force though. Cutting misstep might be better especially for LED builds.

Vs Reanimator
-1 Remand, -1 Force
+2 Extraction
Remand doesn't stall very well (remanding reanimate is an awful play). I think counters are more important for stopping their plays than protecting my own hence the cutting of remand. It's possible that flusterstorm needs to come in as well. I don't know how good cryptic is but I do like having a maindeck bounce.

Vs Belcher
-1 Cryptic, -1 Opt, -1 Turnabout
+3 Flusterstorm
IDK how good flusterstorm is here. It hits a lot of their acceleration and obviously warrens. Cryptic is super slow. Opt and turnabout just because I'm lost as to what else to cut. Misstep needs to stay in for blasts and xantid swarm even though rite of flame is really their only combo piece it hits (actually tinder wall too).

Vs Other graveyard combo (breakfast, 4 horseman, etc)
-1 Opt, -1 Cryptic
+2 Extraction
Cryptic is slow, opt is just something to cut. Honestly IDK how good extraction is here. Misstep too. I'm not super familiar with either deck.

Vs Painter, Goblins, Countertop, Non-Hive Mind Show and Tell
No changes
I don't think anything in my board is better than anything in my main.

Let me know if I'm missing awesome tech, missing a matchup, or boarding wrong. A lot of my board is stolen from silent requiemdm's list a page or two back so I gotta give him credit for that.

Thanks yo

[Silent Requiem]

Recently, I've been finding that the card I sideboard out the most is Turnabout.

Turnabout is pretty weak against aggro control decks like Merfolk; it's too mana intensive to reliably cast when trying to combo off early. Added disruption to slow them down or force the combo through works better.

Turnabout is pretty weak against fast combo decks like ANT; these decks require you to spend the first 4-5 turns countering their attempts to go off, afterwhich you normally have time to play enough lands that mana is not an issue.

Turnabout is pretty weak against control decks like Landstill; these decks allow you to place as many lands as you like, so mana is not an issue. What IS an issue is mana effciancy; you can't rely on any of your spells resolving so you need to be able to generate enough storm in the counter war that you can deck them without resolving a single spell. Turnabout only generates one storm for four mana.

-Silent Requiem

[ScatmanX]

Turnabout is pretty weak against control decks like Landstill; these decks allow you to place as many lands as you like, so mana is not an issue. What IS an issue is mana effciancy; you can't rely on any of your spells resolving so you need to be able to generate enough storm in the counter war that you can deck them without resolving a single spell. Turnabout only generates one storm for four mana.

-Silent Requiem
Actually, I sometimes prefer having Turnabout instead of Reset against those really dragged games. The thing is that usually they'll Snare the Reset, but have less counters that can counter the Turnabout, so it would be "safer" against them.
I do agree though, that if you have 2 Brainfreezes in your hand, and intend to kill them with those 2 after he countered all your other spells, Reset is way better.

[Scordata]

For what its worth, I side my high tides out against landstill and stoneblade. They are saving their missteps for them, and if you just stall until you have 6 or 7 lands, you can go off in response to a jacestorm or something. The look on their face then they realize you've boarded out one of your "combo pieces" is pretty hilarious. Also, cwish can grab one if you end up in a bind.

[rupus]

Recently, I've been finding that the card I sideboard out the most is Turnabout.

Turnabout is pretty weak against aggro control decks like Merfolk; it's too mana intensive to reliably cast when trying to combo off early. Added disruption to slow them down or force the combo through works better.

Turnabout is pretty weak against fast combo decks like ANT; these decks require you to spend the first 4-5 turns countering their attempts to go off, afterwhich you normally have time to play enough lands that mana is not an issue.

Turnabout is pretty weak against control decks like Landstill; these decks allow you to place as many lands as you like, so mana is not an issue. What IS an issue is mana effciancy; you can't rely on any of your spells resolving so you need to be able to generate enough storm in the counter war that you can deck them without resolving a single spell. Turnabout only generates one storm for four mana.

-Silent Requiem

So vs control and aggro/control do you side out all your turnabouts for flusterstorm and keep forces in? For most of the plans I listed where I brought in my flusterstorms would you recommend cutting all 3 turnabouts instead of what I listed? would you recommend How would you board vs Team America (either with my list or yours). Also, I agree with ScatmanX. Lots of landstill and mystic decks are packing spell snares so relying on reset seems a little risky. I guess you could always wish for turnabout if you are in trouble. Also, how did you like the extractions in your board? What decks did you bring them in against?

@Scordata
Lol, that's what I love about this deck. Everyone thinks it needs high tide because they don't have experience vs it but there's so much flexibility. I need more practice going off without high tide though. I will test this plan because it seems like some good surprise factor. Not to mention if it goes to game 3 they will have a tough time boarding. Do you usually bring them back in game 3 or is it something you judge match my match? If so how do you decide?

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Wheel and Deal is a possible combo with Dream Salvage. Another, more versatile piece is Careful Consideration.

[rupus]

Wheel and deal seems so risky that it would only be good during the combo in which case three wishes is probably better. Careful consideration is probably too risky as well although like you said has more benefits. Still it would cost 5 mana and 2 cards for only 3 cards plus you opponent gets a card so you don't net any CA. At five mana you could just play Jace's Ingenuity. I feel like this is running bad cards to run bad cards.

[Seraphus]

everyone why not side out islands? try this side out 12 islands and stick the cards you have in sb but leave the meditate, the turnabout and BF as a wish target...

Quick tip: instead of actually change and try to practice mad sideboarding why don't you read the first pages if this thread and practice with a established list? This is one of the decks most hard to pilot ever made in mtg (in my opinion the one)... Expecting that adapting and playing it to be easy is wrong... As i already said once was winning tournaments with this deck but after stop training with it i could win games anymore... Look even old lists without misstep are fine to play now, you saw the two lists that made 1st place one as Silent list the other Mikko Hyvärinen... Start by playing that them post your doubts here ask us about a situation what can be our way to deal with it etc. Just don't rush yourself to change things you don't understand...


Silent i think you are mistaken about turnabout beside what scatmax refer turnabout is very useful vs still decks as you can use it as a Mana short (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=25567) and the match up vs Hive Mind you'll need to side out reset for turnabout.... But if you see all my lists i always used only 2 of so...

[rupus]

everyone why not side out islands? try this side out 12 islands and stick the cards you have in sb but leave the meditate, the turnabout and BF as a wish target...

Quick tip: instead of actually change and try to practice mad sideboarding why don't you read the first pages if this thread and practice with a established list? This is one of the decks most hard to pilot ever made in mtg (in my opinion the one)... Expecting that adapting and playing it to be easy is wrong... As i already said once was winning tournaments with this deck but after stop training with it i could win games anymore... Look even old lists without misstep are fine to play now, you saw the two lists that made 1st place one as Silent list the other Mikko Hyvärinen... Start by playing that them post your doubts here ask us about a situation what can be our way to deal with it etc. Just don't rush yourself to change things you don't understand...


Silent i think you are mistaken about turnabout beside what scatmax refer turnabout is very useful vs still decks as you can use it as a Mana short (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=25567) and the match up vs Hive Mind you'll need to side out reset for turnabout.... But if you see all my lists i always used only 2 of so...

Like I keep saying I need help with the team America matchup but have gotten 0 advice about so far so...Also sideboards need to change to adapt to the metagame so its always good to keep that discussion open. Lastly playing someone else's list still leaves you lost in terms of sideboarding which is what I need the most help with. You can guess as to what cards need to come out and go in but you probably won't do it as well as whoever made the board. That being said I would love to hear how silent boarded/would board for his list vs some of the top decks.

Anyways, I think ScatmanX is right but mostly because it dodges spell snare not because you can mana short them. I can't think of when you would want to use it as a mana short vs landstill decks. You don't need to stall because their clock is rather slow and force and misstep are free so most of their countermagic is still active. Not to mention if you want to use it to turn off their counters you need to do it on their end step then go off on your turn which turns off reset.

Why would you side out reset vs hive mind? Most lists play force and maybe misstep but not spell snare. I think the bigger question is whether or not to counter show and tell. If they play hive mind you basically win. If they play emrakul you're on a 1 turn clock barring cryptic or turnabout. Maybe countering show and tells and then letting them eventually hard cast hive mind is correct. Actually I think that's the right way to play the matchup.

[ScatmanX]

Not to mention if you want to use it to turn off their counters you need to do it on their end step then go off on your turn which turns off reset.
If your High Tide resolves, you can cast Turnabout targeting them. They can float mana, and let it resolve. The, if no spell is on the stack, and they don't want to cast anything, they'll have to go to their 2nd main phase, or whatever phase, and you continue the combo from there. This shuts them Counterspell and Spell Snare, which can be quite a good deal. Pretty hard to accomplish though...

[Seraphus]

Hive mind: Pacts triggeres on the upkeep you can combo whenever you what except if you need to play reset meaning that you can only combo after the upkeep on the op turn... And yes let them resolve (but this is some situation in others you have to read the game...) resolve hive mind means double high tide...

Counterspell, spell pierce, spell snare, dispel, red elemental blast hum... and maybe any hard counter (not able to be played for free) are the reason why you need to mana short your op... and no mana pool empties at each step if your opponent says: Pass or play and he's in main phase it's a shortcut so you can tell at the end of your main phase turnabout... but ok...

So you give me no list of sb and you want to discuss sb...


Sb cards possible (meditate turnabout BSZ and BF + 11 ):

Mindbreak trap, Ravenous trap, divert, misdirection, Blue elemental blast, dispel, flusterstorm, cirugical extraction, hibernation, echoing truth, chain of vapor, snap, wipe away, twincast, Hurkyl's recall, dirupt, hunting pack and krosan grip in the green version, words of wisdom, slaughter pact, pact of negation, Faerie macabre, fact of fiction... Well i think this is a good list so pick it and than show a sb list and a maindeck list...

As the Team america list you have to have a thing in mind: make him counter everything, don't counter unless it represents a treat and remember foi and meditate are card advantaged... Avoid wasting brainstrom avoid rush into crack fetch or not crack them...

[rupus]

I had a big post about sideboarding in the last page. Anyways, here's the list I'm running right now:

12x Island
2x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
4x Brainstorm
4x Opt
4x Impulse
4x Reset
3x High Tide
3x Mental Misstep
3x Remand
3x Cunning Wish
3x Meditate
3x Turnabout
3x Force of Will
2x Brain Freeze
2x Flash of Insight
1x Cryptic Command
SIDEBOARD
3x Flusterstorm
2x Divert
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Pact of Negation
1x High Tide
1x Brain Freeze
1x Echoing Truth
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Hibernation
1x Meditate
1x Ravenous Trap

Ah I see what you're saying about hive mind. I was thinking usually you could just combo out on their endstep or whatever but if you need an untap that makes sense. For turnabout as a mana short it seems like you need lots of mana floating for that to work but vs slower control I guess it makes sense. Still if you've had enough time to get the lands and high tides and other pieces to go off and be able to use turnabout you could probably power through counters. I know mana empties with steps but I was thinking that you would probably need an untap to have enough mana to go off. I've never tried that line of play though but I will definitely keep it in mind in the future. About turnabout in the wish board. I've seen lists without it (for example silent's list). I never miss it.

Vs team America do you tend to let hymn resolve? I always try to force it but if they force back it really sucks. Remand doesn't do much vs hymn. Generally they only run 8-10 actual wincons. Should I save my counters for those? Honestly team America is the main reason for the diverts in my board.

EDIT: Lol you broke the internet seraphus. It's pretty funny how it keeps double posting.

[Seraphus]

Hive mind note: the thing is you'll try to delay show and tell and hive mind the best you can by remanding and etc... if we can resolve the win condition you'll have less mana than you'll have in the upkeep (once again its important to read the game)...

Sb: well divert + flusterstorm + surgical extraction (7 cards to deal with it is too way much) and without BF (relay on the BSZ its not a good plan in my opinion since you tell me that your worst match up is team america that uses extripate...)

you have to deal with resolved treats like confidant, stoneforge, tombstalker, any win condition. Playing this matches is quiet hard they tend to request too much patience, too much attention... I advise you too change the sb cards use cards like dismember or cards like snap... because yes you understand correctly go for the win cons...

[rupus]

Hive mind note: the thing is you'll try to delay show and tell and hive mind the best you can by remanding and etc... if we can resolve the win condition you'll have less mana than you'll have in the upkeep (once again its important to read the game)...

Sb: well divert + flusterstorm + surgical extraction (7 cards to deal with it is too way much) and without BF (relay on the BSZ its not a good plan in my opinion since you tell me that your worst match up is team america that uses extripate...)

you have to deal with resolved treats like confidant, stoneforge, tombstalker, any win condition. Playing this matches is quiet hard they tend to request too much patience, too much attention... I advise you too change the sb cards use cards like dismember or cards like snap... because yes you understand correctly go for the win cons...

I totally forgot about dismember that seems like some pretty awesome tech. I really want a rebuild to wish for as well so I think I will do -2 divert +1 dismember +1 rebuild. What do you mean about relying on BSZ? I have a brain freeze in my board.

[Seraphus]

Rely on BSZ: After extripate and Surgical extraction no you don't...

[rupus]

Rely on BSZ: After extripate and Surgical extraction no you don't...

But I still have a brain freeze in the board tO wish for if they extirpate or surgical it. What I was talking about before was not including a turnabout in my wishboard. I would never not run a brain freeze in my board.

[Seraphus]

But I still have a brain freeze in the board tO wish for if they extirpate or surgical it. What I was talking about before was not including a turnabout in my wishboard. I would never not run a brain freeze in my board.

Owh my mistaken then...


Ps: why did i spend money on that piece of shit of VoB? =,,(

[GoldenCid]

Ps: why did i spend money on that piece of shit of VoB? =,,(

Indeed?? Is it that bad???

[Seraphus]

it's worst (i had a eeling that it could be less power than what we had all think but it's even worst)...

[rupus]

Owh my mistaken then...


Ps: why did i spend money on that piece of shit of VoB? =,,(

One day something will happen and break VoB. Or maybe you really did waste like $20 on a piece of shit. Maybe its a big joke wizards is pulling on us. "Hey let's make a one mana blue instant that can draw three so everyone thinks its good like ancestral but actually its garbage" -Maro
"Yeah awesome idea. Also, let's do the same thing with the new Jace." -Forsythe
"LOL!" -Everyone
:(

[rupus]

Merfolk with standstill. How do I beat them? I played vs them yesterday and both games he wennt vial standstill turns one and 2. I had a misstep for the vial and remand for the standstill one game and both got countered and the other game I had a force for the standstill which also got countered. Without standstills it's not super hard but with them :(

I took out 2 turnabout and 1 remand I think for my flusterstorms. How would you board?

[Seraphus]

Merfolk with standstill. How do I beat them? I played vs them yesterday and both games he wennt vial standstill turns one and 2. I had a misstep for the vial and remand for the standstill one game and both got countered and the other game I had a force for the standstill which also got countered. Without standstills it's not super hard but with them :(

I took out 2 turnabout and 1 remand I think for my flusterstorms. How would you board?

Do you remember me telling you that you need sb vs creatures?

I do think that not having at least one turnabout in a decklist that doesn't run Cryptic it's wrong....

If you side in creatures hate you'll not need Fow that much, remand isn't really any good vs vial so i suggest you side in flusterstorm and your creature hate and side out some portion of the cards i mention...

[rupus]

Do you remember me telling you that you need sb vs creatures?

I do think that not having at least one turnabout in a decklist that doesn't run Cryptic it's wrong....

If you side in creatures hate you'll not need Fow that much, remand isn't really any good vs vial so i suggest you side in flusterstorm and your creature hate and side out some portion of the cards i mention...

Yessir I remember that and put in a dismember but only 1 as a wish target. I will test out some more. After boarding I still had 1 turnabout and 1 cryptic as fog effects. I guess making sure vial doesn't hit is more important than stopping standstill so I can see how remand would be bad but I think force is important to make sure vial doesn't resolve. What do you think about boarding in surgical extractions? They could hit counter magic or standstills but I don't know how much of an impact that would have. I would like to hear what silent requiem thought about the extractions in his board and when he brought them in and what he hit with them. I will keep testing and report back.

[Seraphus]

Look if you counter vial you have to have MM plus FoW... let vial resolve let standstill resolve but don't let the creatures hit you. Do you understand what i mean?

[rupus]

Look if you counter vial you have to have MM plus FoW... let vial resolve let standstill resolve but don't let the creatures hit you. Do you understand what i mean?

Ah now I see what you're saying. I assumed resolving cryptic, turnabout, dismember, etc would be too difficult through a standstill but I will try that next time. Also, I know this is a very general question and it depends a lot on the game state but do you find yourself cracking standstills right away or do you generally wait until you are going to lose if you don't?

[Psychovoid]

Played on an online magic-league tourney yesterday. It's single elimination and I was paired against Hive Mind game 1. You can check my opponent's list at http://pastebin.com/6QQp7VZK (search for "cabof", he finished 3rd). I was playing with the cards I have (no Forces yet):


Mainboard:
3 Misty Rainforest
12 Island
3 Island
3 Island
3 Island
3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
3 Cunning Wish
1 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze
4 High Tide
4 Remand
4 Impulse
4 Reset
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
2 Twincast
2 Counterspell
3 Mental Misstep

Sideboard:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
4 Divert
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Mental Misstep
1 Pact of Negation
1 Rebuild
2 Repeal
1 Turnabout


Game 1 he casts Show and Tell turn 3. I opt in response and find an Island (which I cheat into play with his Show and Tell). He drops Emrakul. My turn 4 I opt looking for a High Tide but got an Island instead. I drop it and pass the turn. I try to go out on the begin attack phase without a High Tide in hand. With 4 untapped lands, I tap everything and cast a Reset. He Intuitions for Force. I Twincast the Reset, untap, dig a little bit longer, and fizzle.

Game 2 he drops a Leyline of Sanctity turn 1. After some digging on our parts, he casts Show and Tell turn 4. I don't have a counter and cheat an Island into play instead. Emrakul hits the table on his side. I try to go out next turn. I resolve a High Tide on his upkeep. When I try comboing off he Intuitions for a Pact of Negation and tries to counter the Meditate. I cast Flash of Insight, some Resets, Wish, and cast Blue Zenith drawing 11 cards. I leave 4 mana open to untap but didn't get one in the 11 cards (I had cast 3 Resets already). I fizzle after some more desperate attempts of finding an untapper.

In general, I had the impression that I never came even close to winning. Keep in mind that he has 3 Emrakuls main deck, so I would need a pretty successful combo to Brain Freeze/Remand/Trap/Zenith him. Game two he even dropped a friggin' white Leyline in play. They play somewhere around 12 hard counters (4 Forces, Pact of Negations, and Intuitions). I don't know if those people who said Hive Mind is an OK matchup playtested more, but my impression is it's pretty tough.

I think I'll bleed for some Forces. That will certainly help.

EDIT:
Was browing Legacy daily results and found this Solidarity list 3-1 (search for Th00mor):
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2608689

[rupus]

Played on an online magic-league tourney yesterday. It's single elimination and I was paired against Hive Mind game 1. You can check my opponent's list at http://pastebin.com/6QQp7VZK (search for "cabof", he finished 3rd). I was playing with the cards I have (no Forces yet):


Mainboard:
3 Misty Rainforest
12 Island
3 Island
3 Island
3 Island
3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
3 Cunning Wish
1 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze
4 High Tide
4 Remand
4 Impulse
4 Reset
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
2 Twincast
2 Counterspell
3 Mental Misstep

Sideboard:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
4 Divert
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Mental Misstep
1 Pact of Negation
1 Rebuild
2 Repeal
1 Turnabout


Game 1 he casts Show and Tell turn 3. I opt in response and find an Island (which I cheat into play with his Show and Tell). He drops Emrakul. My turn 4 I opt looking for a High Tide but got an Island instead. I drop it and pass the turn. I try to go out on the begin attack phase without a High Tide in hand. With 4 untapped lands, I tap everything and cast a Reset. He Intuitions for Force. I Twincast the Reset, untap, dig a little bit longer, and fizzle.

Game 2 he drops a Leyline of Sanctity turn 1. After some digging on our parts, he casts Show and Tell turn 4. I don't have a counter and cheat an Island into play instead. Emrakul hits the table on his side. I try to go out next turn. I resolve a High Tide on his upkeep. When I try comboing off he Intuitions for a Pact of Negation and tries to counter the Meditate. I cast Flash of Insight, some Resets, Wish, and cast Blue Zenith drawing 11 cards. I leave 4 mana open to untap but didn't get one in the 11 cards (I had cast 3 Resets already). I fizzle after some more desperate attempts of finding an untapper.

In general, I had the impression that I never came even close to winning. Keep in mind that he has 3 Emrakuls main deck, so I would need a pretty successful combo to Brain Freeze/Remand/Trap/Zenith him. Game two he even dropped a friggin' white Leyline in play. They play somewhere around 12 hard counters (4 Forces, Pact of Negations, and Intuitions). I don't know if those people who said Hive Mind is an OK matchup playtested more, but my impression is it's pretty tough.

I think I'll bleed for some Forces. That will certainly help.

EDIT:
Was browing Legacy daily results and found this Solidarity list 3-1 (search for Th00mor):
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2608689

Sounds pretty brutal. Still that list needs 2 more turnabouts main. Might've saved you off that bad zenith. They also tap emrakul which can buy some time. Anyways, it is much harder if they go for Emrakul. Once Hive Mind is in play it's trivial to go off (no counters, double high tides). Their copy of brainfreeze won't storm. Force is also pretty important. A nice answer to Emrakul is surgical extraction. Leyline isn't something that's hard to beat though. By the time you have enough storm for a lethal brainfreeze you usually have enough cards/mana to wish for your bounce spell of choice. Or a cryptic command main can help. Also, their counters aren't as worrysome (sp?) as you might think. If they intiution for a counter they just used up their tutor trying to stop you and 3 of their counters (kind of). Pact can only be used if they are going for a hive mind kill or you have taken 5 from fetches or something or they have an insane amount of mana open (especially with the thread of EOT meditate). Flusterstorm out of the board is good too. It sounds like you had some bad luck and a not optimal list. Also, what's up with your land? Are you really running 24 lands? And only 3 fetchs? The mana base has been pretty set in stone for a long time except for the addition of an extra island or fetch here and there. It's pretty accepted that you should run 12 islands and 6 fetches with a possible extra island or fetch. 24 is way too much and 3 fetches is probably too few.

On that MODO list. Cool to see the deck doing decent somewhere. I think he probably has 1 too many lands and 4 too few forces. I don't think misstep is any kind of substitute for force.

[Psychovoid]

The lands are messed up. I play 12 Islands and 6 Fetches. I put Turnabouts back in the place of the Counterspells; I was thinking about it and I agree with you that more Turnabouts might be what I need to avoid fizzling.

One thing that was possibly unclear: my opponent used Intuition to tutor up Pact of Negation after he had Emrakul in play, so he didn't need it to tutor up Show and Tell or anything. Another note is that Hive Mind plays Ancient Tomb and Grim Monolith, so paying for Pact of Negation is not hard for them.

[wolfstorm]

Curious is impulse really that good?... I've been playing a list with no impulse and it has been doing quite well lately in testing.


- Edit: Decided to try impulse again, forgot how good it is.. Updated the list to my new current version

My list for reference

Maindeck:

1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Impulse
1 Cryptic Command
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
2 Flusterstorm
3 High Tide
3 Meditate
3 Mental Misstep
4 Opt
2 Pact of Negation
3 Remand
4 Reset
1 Three Wishes
3 Turnabout
2 Flooded Strand
10 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
1 Hibernation
1 High Tide
1 Meditate
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rebuild
1 Repeal
2 Surgical Extraction

[Wess]

While this deck has many weakenesses, which prevent it from being top tier, the main problem with the deck is that it fizzles, due to A. Mana B. Card draw...hence, designed a different build to solve these problems:


4 Tolarian Winds
1 Brain Freeze
2 Noxious Revival
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
1 Flash of Insight
2 Deep Analysis
2 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Visions of Beyond
4 High Tide
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Mental Misstep
3 Force of Will
2 Remand
4 Reset
1 Turnabout

10 Fetch
8 Island

The card disadvantage of Tolarian Winds and Noxious Revival is negated by the card draw that you get from having draw spells in the gy (deep analysis, accumulated knowledge, flash of insight, visions of beyond). Noxious revival is a catch-all that enables either a card drawing engine, or, trades surplus cards for more mana if needed.

Thirst for Knowledge is the weakest card, along with Remand...might but for +1 Visions, +1 Brainfreeze


Has been performing well, but needs work.

[Psychovoid]

While this deck has many weakenesses, which prevent it from being top tier, the main problem with the deck is that it fizzles, due to A. Mana B. Card draw...hence, designed a different build to solve these problems:


4 Tolarian Winds
1 Brain Freeze
2 Noxious Revival
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
1 Flash of Insight
2 Deep Analysis
2 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Visions of Beyond
4 High Tide
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Mental Misstep
3 Force of Will
2 Remand
4 Reset
1 Turnabout

10 Fetch
8 Island

The card disadvantage of Tolarian Winds and Noxious Revival is negated by the card draw that you get from having draw spells in the gy (deep analysis, accumulated knowledge, flash of insight, visions of beyond). Noxious revival is a catch-all that enables either a card drawing engine, or, trades surplus cards for more mana if needed.

Thirst for Knowledge is the weakest card, along with Remand...might but for +1 Visions, +1 Brainfreeze


Has been performing well, but needs work.

I guess I would need to test it... but with less mana (only 1 Turnabout) and less draw (no Meditate), I don't see how this fizzles less than the classic version.

[Wess]

The decklist actually has a lot more draw power and mana-producing capability than the standard list. Meditate is a strong draw spell, I guess you could put 2 of them in the list, but, in the current decklist, meditate doesn't perform well. The best that you can do with meditate, is draw into a 2-mana cantrip to try and chain another meditate, which isn't very efficient.

Too often with meditate, it draws into a cantrip, which will enable you to get an untap effect, or card draw, and you fizzle due to needing both. With the new list, you draw into more draw spells, which draw into more draw+mana, etc. Once you accumulate counterspells, lands, or anything else you don't need, you cast tolarian winds to ditch the useless cards and re-stock.

The -1 turnabout never matters, due to the draw-power of the deck, and the ability to get a reset from the graveyard if needed.

[PunkRocker1134]

Unless I'm missing something, Deep Analysis is a sorcery, and the flashback rules say treat flashback as you would an alternative cost. Therefore you cannot cast it at instant speed. So why is it in this deck at all?

[Psychovoid]

The decklist actually has a lot more draw power and mana-producing capability than the standard list. Meditate is a strong draw spell, I guess you could put 2 of them in the list, but, in the current decklist, meditate doesn't perform well. The best that you can do with meditate, is draw into a 2-mana cantrip to try and chain another meditate, which isn't very efficient.

Too often with meditate, it draws into a cantrip, which will enable you to get an untap effect, or card draw, and you fizzle due to needing both. With the new list, you draw into more draw spells, which draw into more draw+mana, etc. Once you accumulate counterspells, lands, or anything else you don't need, you cast tolarian winds to ditch the useless cards and re-stock.

The -1 turnabout never matters, due to the draw-power of the deck, and the ability to get a reset from the graveyard if needed.

I playtested the list a little bit (changed the two Deep Analysis for Meditates) and tried to go off by turns 4-5. The new list still fizzled.

Some impressions on card choices:

Noxious Revival may be completely dead mid-combo if you're going off with a low life total. I had it in hand when I was going to fizzle but didn't have anything relevant to bring back from the grave. And now I realized that I was bringing the card back to my hand instead of top of the library... and I still didn't like it.

Thirst for Knowledge seemed weak. And it doesn't make Visions of Beyond good. How about they unban Frantic Search instead?

Visions of Beyond looked like win-more (the times where I drew three cards I had already plenty of mana and cards already).

I did like Tolarian Winds though. It saved me once when I was going to fizzle. Multiples mid-combo are good (you put multiples on the stack and it's double insurance :), but multiples pre-combo suck. So I was thinking that 2 or 3 would work best.

I liked Accumulated Knowledge. I had never tested it before. It's good pre-combo... I don't know if it's good enough. Maybe in a list with more lands we can exchange Impulse with Peer Through Depths and dig for the AKs instead of lands to generate card advantage pre-combo?

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I'm not dismissing your ideas. I'm just giving feedback. Let me know if you find anything in testing. I'll test Tolarian Winds in the Mnemonic Nexus/Eldrazi grave-reshuffle build I mentioned a few pages back.

[Seraphus]

man i like reading jokes.... loool

[Wess]

Thanks for the feedback. The list does need work, its far from perfect. Tolarian Winds is a beast, pre-combo, I would ideally use it with brainstorm to keep a high tide on top deck while casting it. You might be right an cutting down to 2-3 would be better.
Also, Thirst for Knowledge is weak, I found that too, but its tough to find an instant card draw for 3+ with some GY synergy.

Will keep testing and trying to tune the list...

The current build of Solidarity is obsolete and not competative, so new builds have to be explored...or else just run Spiral Tide which is comptetative due to a card that both untaps and draws.

[Seraphus]

bring the deck u want with the exception of Reanimate and i show you how much obsolete the current solidarity's list is...

Exactly run spiral tide.

[GoldenCid]

The current build of Solidarity is obsolete and not competative, so new builds have to be explored...or else just run Spiral Tide which is comptetative due to a card that both untaps and draws.

Obsolete...? Why??

Guys, i wanna add misstep in my list but i find difficult the card choice for the cut.
Here's my decklist...i'd like not to read comments about the inclusion or the of Visions of beyond, but if you think that is the cut target mention it!

// Lands
11 [4E] Island (1)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
3 [TE] Meditate
3 [SC] Brain Freeze
2 [US] Turnabout
3 [RAV] Remand
4 [LG] Reset
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [FE] High Tide (2)
1 [JU] Flash of Insight
3 [IN] Opt
4 [VI] Impulse
2 [LRW] Cryptic Command
3 [M12] Visions of Beyond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [FE] High Tide (2)
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 [OD] Words of Wisdom
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [UL] Snap
SB: 1 [8E] Hibernation


Thx!

[Silent Requiem]

With your list, I'd cut 1 Cryptic Command and 3 Visions of Beyond for 4 Mental Misstep.

I find that Cryptic works best as a cheeky singleton; you don't want it in your opening hand and you rarely want to see it more than once. I'd then cut Visions simply because is unneccessary in a deck still running Meditate and FoI.

That means that you would have 12 maindeck counters (4 FoW, 4 MM, 3 Remand, 1 Cryptic), which is pretty insane for a combo deck. Throw some Flusterstorm/Pact of Negation into the sideboard, and you can customise your counter package games 2&3 so that you have optimal counters for each matchup.

Edit: In some matchups, those extra counters may well come in to replace Turnabout, bringing your total counter package to ~16 against control decks. Very, very tough for them to deal with all that countermagic.

[lorddotm]

With your list, I'd cut 1 Cryptic Command and 3 Visions of Beyond for 4 Mental Misstep.

I find that Cryptic works best as a cheeky singleton; you don't want it in your opening hand and you rarely want to see it more than once. I'd then cut Visions simply because is unneccessary in a deck still running Meditate and FoI.

That means that you would have 12 maindeck counters (4 FoW, 4 MM, 3 Remand, 1 Cryptic), which is pretty insane for a combo deck. Throw some Flusterstorm/Pact of Negation into the sideboard, and you can customise your counter package games 2&3 so that you have optimal counters for each matchup.

Edit: In some matchups, those extra counters may well come in to replace Turnabout, bringing your total counter package to ~16 against control decks. Very, very tough for them to deal with all that countermagic.

Can you post your current list por favor :)

[Silent Requiem]

As requested.


Land

12 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn

Mana/Untap

3 High Tide
3 Turnabout
4 Reset

Draw

3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
4 Impulse
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm

Protection

4 Force of Will
1 Cryptic Command
3 Remand

Other

2 Brain Freeze
4 Cunning Wish

Sideboard

1 High Tide
1 BSZ
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
1 Rebuild
1 Hunting Pack
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Echoing Truth
4 Flusterstorm
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Surgical Extraction

This is what I'm testing at the moment. It's a blend of the list I took to Nationals last year, and the list I used to top 8 a local tournament last month.

Things to note:

1) I'm using Opt, not Peer Through Depths. This is a little counter intuitive, given MM hits Opt and not PtD, but I've always thought that PtD offers more raw power, and Opt offers more flexibility. In a control heavy meta I want that flexibility; Opt generates storm more efficiently, and can be squeezed in around other spells pre combo the way PtD can't.

2) I'm down to 19 lands. 20 lands was the sweet spot for PtD builds where you needed to draw into lands naturally pre combo and could bypass them post combo. With an Opt build, 19 seems to be working better.

3) Hunting Pack is back. Although I successfully removed the green splash in my last tournament (it is less important to be able to go off on turn 3 in a slower meta) I found that the deck was a little more one dimensional without the Hunting Pack win. I'm not sure if this will stay, but it's what I'm testing at the moment.

4) I'm back up to four Wishes. If I run Hunting Pack, I need four Wishes. If I drop Pack, I'll go back down to three Wishes, adding the fourth Remand.

5) Flusterstorm is better in the sideboard than Mental Mistep. In my view, MM is maindeck or nothing. I'd love to fit MM into the maindeck, but I just can't do it in a build I'm happy with right now.

[Spigore]

I like your deck Silent Requiem. It does seem nicely balanced. I'm running mono U.
What's up with the 4th Tide in the sideboard?

I'm talking with Seraphus a lot on the lists;
Though I can't seem to find a slot in my current build for Cryptic, I'm not really missing it! It's still in the side for the moment, but it will probably will be removed entirely.

As for all; let's not forget the precious little gem named Twincast. I strongly suggest running this one (at least) in the SB.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah I still have twincast as a one of in my SB. I haven't played the deck in a while but twincast was sweetness as a wish target when I played this deck.

I've never ran cryptic command in solidarity. If it were 3 mana I would run it. As it stands, it's probably a fog cantrip for 1UUU. Which isn't good enough in my book.

I've always thought about hunting pack as a wish target but then I think "eh, I have to splash" and don't. Is it really that great in here as a wish target? It is intriguing to say the least, where against aggro you can have them alpha strike but you get a 6 4/4's and wrath their board essentially and probably have some dudes leftover to bash with.

12 counterspell's MD seems a little much since the protection comes at the risk of fizzling off of cantrips, meditate, and other business spells. I'm trying to find the optimal counter package. Maybe 3 missteps, 3 FoW, and 3 remand would work. Then the rest of the deck would be 18-20 lands (playstyle choice), and the rest cantrips and the core of your business spells in 1-2 brain freeze, 3-4 wish, 3 meditate, and the mana spells of 2 turnabout and four reset's with a turnabout in the board along with high tide's of course either 4 MD or the 3/1 split between the maindeck and SB. I'm trying to flesh out an optimal list and I'm just brainstorming right now what would be the best to use.

[GoldenCid]

Yeah cryptic is a bit mana intensive but i realise that its the only protection spell, besides classical counters, that survived up to now. Repeal, snap were all removed from list for any reasons...

[Spigore]

I will never remove 2 Repeal from the maindeck! You simply can't.
As for Hunting Pack, I have the same splashing-phobia.

At the moment I'm running 4 FoW, 3 Remand, 2 Misstep. In the sideboard I'm playing 1 Flusterstorm, 1 Pact of Negation, 2 Mindbreak Trap, 2 Misstep.

[rupus]

I've been trying a 3/3/3 split of remand, force, and misstep (and also 1 cryptic) but I think force should really be a 4 of. There are too many times I need a force and can't find one. Misstep hasn't been as awesome as I want it to be but that's partly because I've been playing vs Hive Mind nonstop. I think I'm going to either try cutting a misstep for a force or cutting missteps altogether for 1 force, 1 remand and an island (which would make my main the same as silent requiem's previous list I think). Cryptic isn't just a 4 mana fog. It doesn't anything you need it to. I would much rather play cryptic than repeal any day. I don't see why you would want a wishable twincast. What does it do that any other card couldn't do better? What problems does hunting pack solve? Why would you go for it instead of a brain freeze kill?

EDIT: I've been thinking that maybe doing a 3/1 split of opt/peek might be a good idea. Some old lists did that or even a 2/2 split. My thinking is that opt in response to a show and tell would be very helpful vs Hive Mind.

[Spigore]

Twincast can help you combo, copying key cards you're casting, Tide/Reset/FoI/Meditate/Brain Freeze.
Besides that, some fun you can with Twincast;

- Copying opponent's Lightning Bolt, targeting his Tarmogoyf/Lavamancer/Clique etc.
- Copying opponent's Lim-Dul's Vault.
- Copying opponent's FoW/Daze/Spell Snare etc.
- Copying Ill-Gotten Gains

Though I don't feel like I should be explaining the card's power.

[Silent Requiem]

What problems does hunting pack solve? Why would you go for it instead of a brain freeze kill?

The Hunting Pack kill is faster, being easy to achieve on turn 3, which was very relevant when I first started using it against Vengevine Survival.

It also means that any number of poor hands involving Cunning Wish now become winning hands. Just today, in testing, I was staring and Tide, Reset, and Cunning Wish with four lands in play. Without HP, this hand is very dodgy - your only draw spell is Cunning Wish, which means going for Meditate, a play which uses 7 of the 12 mana you can generate. If you don't Meditate into an untap (or a cantrip into a Reset) you probably lose.

Of course, with HP, you simply let them play a spell (for storm) and win.

On top of that, HP is a completely different line of play, and unaffected by Emrakul or other similar mill-hate. It's not that HP is necessary, it's that it makes life much, much easier.

Which is why I hesitate to play it when the meta does not require it.

I'd suggest that anyone interested simply test it and decide for themselves. Simply switch one Island for a Tropical Island, and put Hunting Pack in your sideboard for a few rounds of gold fishing.

[Ninakoru]

I dont see Hunting Pack in solidarity. Splashing green can be specially helpful giving access to Krosan Grip, against CB.

The problem relies on how you go off with solidarity. Using hunting pack means waiting until your main phase in your turn to kill the opponent. That means meditate will hurt, and pact of negation is of very limited use.

I am starting to use solidarity and read a lot about it, and there's one card that could fit well to the solidarity well, take a lok and think about all the possibilities it grants for a common instant :P

Oona´s Grace

Regards,
Alejandro.

[leegoo]

Oona´s Grace

Regards,
Alejandro.

Tested long ago. Didn't belong in the format then, and still doesn't.

[lorddotm]

I thought Hunting Pack was worthless too, then I saw Silent Requiem play against Aggro Loam and then EoT lethal beasts. Definitely a sweet card.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah the reason I'm tempted to play hunting pack now is because it's usually an easy way out, especially if they don't know you run it. The reason: it can literally pop out of nowhere on a turn 4 alpha strike against you and wreck the opponent without you needing to jump through several hoops to BF them, remand it, BF them again, then stroke/BSZ them for 1 or more and that requires a lot of mana. Whereas hunting pack you can go off with just resets, turnabouts, high tide(s), and a cunning wish for hunting pack FTW. I'm certainly tempted to add a tropical island as the 19th land in place of some weakish card just to hunting pack people out lol.

Oona's grace would be playable at 2 mana. At 3 mana, it is a bad three wishes and meditate obviously.

[GoldenCid]

The problem relies on how you go off with solidarity. Using hunting pack means waiting until your main phase in your turn to kill the opponent. That means meditate will hurt, and pact of negation is of very limited use.

.

It's known that if you're going off via Hunting pack probably you won't use meditate. But supose that you will...against aggro what's bad with 10 untapped 4/4 beast and 1 turn less??

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah what Golden Cid said. If you draw with meditate, it just ramps up storm even higher and you get tons of 4/4's. The only problem with giving them another turn is if they have a way to answer all those 4/4's i.e. maelstrom pulse, pernicious deed, engineered explosives, wrath of god, or they have more creatures than you do onboard (quite unlikely) and you don't have a force of will or something in hand.

[Ninakoru]

I don't understand why would you want to skip using meditate, or to give the opponent 2 turns to try an answer to those 4/4, when you can instantly win on the enemy turn.

Anyways this is the list I am currently running with:

// Lands
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
12 Island

// Spells
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
2 Opt
1 Peek
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Twincast
4 Impulse
2 Brain Freeze
2 Flash of Insight

// Counters
2 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
2 Remand
2 Force of Will

// Sideboard
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Twincast
1 Brain Freeze
1 Rebuild
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Divert
2 Pact of Negation
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Wipe Away


Oona's grace would be playable at 2 mana. At 3 mana, it is a bad three wishes and meditate obviously.

I am not trying to fit Oona's grace instead of Meditate or any draw card, as they clearly outclasses this common card. I try to find it's place as a versatile support card, much like Twincast or Cryptic command, as a 1 or 2 of card. I find myself sometimes going off on opponent's turn just before being killed, but I am not able to wish for Blue Sun's Zenith at the same time I deck him out. I also sometimes end with too much mana and dead cards, and not being able to finish the combo.

This card is:

- A bad draw/cantrip card.
- Can be used from GY dropping lands and paying 3 mana.
- It can be used against the opponent as the card says 'Player', so it can be used yo kill him after Brain freeze.

I will try it, along Noxious Revival, another interesting card for this deck.

[GoldenCid]

I don't understand why would you want to skip using meditate, or to give the opponent 2 turns to try an answer to those 4/4, when you can instantly win on the enemy turn.



Off course i'm talking about decks that can respond to HP. Decks that run pernicious deed, explisives, keg, mass removal are not good for going off with HP, but goblins, merfolks, winnies, maybe zoo...are good examples for dropping tons of 4/4 tokens using meditate!

[Silent Requiem]

A quick tournament report from this weekend. I used the list I just posted, except I did not run the green splash, so -1 Tropical, -1 Cunning Wish, +1 Remand, +1 Island.

The report:

Round 1 - Batterskull

Game 1 was a fairly easy win, largely because of the number of dead cards he has; I was able to combo off without too much problem. Winning the roll to go first had helped, as I was able to Remand his turn 2 Stoneforge.

Game 2 was tougher, with him on the play. I had Force of Will for the Stoneforge, but he had a second one, so I did not buy myself as much time as I would have liked. Although I made all my land drops, I had to start digging on my own turn, which is a vicious cycle. This meant I could not Remand the second Stoneforge and I was unable to go off when he had lethal on the board - I needed the extra untap to be ready. Win for him.

Game 3 was a close fight; I had land problems, and he used his counter magic to shut down my dig. However, I finally managed to Brainstorm into three lands, which put me back in the game. Although I was slow to combo off, Batterskull on it's own is not much of a clock (in previous games Batterskull had been backed up by Jitte). When I finally did go off, he did not have enough counter magic left to stop me.

2-1 win


Round 2 - Zoo

Game 1 should have been mine, but I fizzled after a long combo chain. One of the downsides of playing Opt over PtD.

Game 2 I couldn't find my a High Tide (or Cunning Wish) quickly enough, but I managed to stabilize. When he dropped the Aethersworn Cannonist, though, I did not have the resources to Wish for Tide and go off in the same turn. Equally, I did not have time to deal with the Cannonist and then combo off.

0-2 loss


Round 3 - RB Goblins

Game 1 was a solid win for me, but games 2 and 3 gave him a ton of targeted discard, and I was unable to recover before going under.

1-2 loss


Round 4 - The Gate

Game 1 saw me at -6 life, but with a stupid number of lands in play - he was having trouble resolving something to kill his Abyssal Persecutor. Eventually I went off, drawing 20 cards with BSZ and then decking him with BSZ chaser.

Game 2 was conventional beats, but I had to play around a black counterspell. Very cool.

2-0 win


Round 5 - Goblins

Game 1 was a win for me; he did not have a Lackey start, but instead had 3 Goblin Guides. I let them attack and put all three triggers on the stack. I then used these triggers to "scout" my Opts and Meditates. It worked well.

Game 2 was a win for him; I fizzled again.

Game 3 was very tense; we knew we were playing for the bottom spot of the top 8 (we had the best tiebreakers). After slowing him down with a series of Remands, I was eventually able to combo successfully.

2-1 win


Quarter finals - Zoo

My Zoo opponent had made it to the top 8 undefeated, and was a large part of why my tiebreakers were so good.

Game 1 was a straightforward aggro v combo matchup, and I came out ahead.

Game 2, I sided in Rebuild in place of Cryptic Command (I could still Wish for Echoing Truth), and I kept a mediocre hand that had Rebuild in it. My opponent kept a hand full of hate, but only one land. He did not find a second land right away, so it was turn when he started dropping Teags and Cannonists. I combo'd off on turn 5 after leading with Rebuild.

2-0 win

Semifinals - Melfolk

Game 1 was an epic, epic battle. I had to mull to 5 to find lands, and I assumed the game was lost. However, when his Standstill drew into nothing but lands I was able to win after Brainfreezing myself for FoI twice.

Game 2 was also very epic, as I played through a huge number of counters. However, I fizzled when a necessary Brainfreeze into FoI removed all my win conditions. Despite the loss, Flusterstorm proved it's worth in the initial stages of the combo.

Game 3 was pure counter war, and he had 2 Mental Mistep, 1 Force of Will, 1 Daze and a Cursecatcher. If I had managed to make my fifth land drop, I probably would have won.

1-2 loss

Overall result: 4-3, resulting in 4th place


Afterthoughts:

I can't help but feel I brought the wrong build for the meta. I faced far more aggro than I expected, which accounted for nearly all my losses.

Against aggro, you need as much power as possible from your spells; you can't mess about when finding High Tide, an untap, etc. Against aggro, Peer Through Depths is much, MUCH better than Opt. Equally, the Hunting Pack win, which I removed at the last minute, is far more valuable.

Instead, I brought a deck with Opts and maxed Remands, which is great against control, where you need to play stack games and don't want to invest too much in any one spell. Remand is solid against aggro, but only on the play. The match I won against aggro I won the dice roll, lost game two and went first in game three. Remand (on the play) was key there. Not a good "strategy" for dealing with aggro, though.

As a result, I won almost all my control matches (with the exception of Merfolk, where is suffered some poor luck - first removing my win conditions, then missing a critical land drop), and lost almost all of my aggro matches.

I'm looking at heading to Nationals in two weeks, so I need to think about what kind of build I want to bring. Despite my weakness against aggro, I've done pretty well at the last few tournaments with my existing build, and the amount of combo and control in the meta might make it worthwhile to have a slightly weaker aggro match if it means my other matches improve.

[Seraphus]

So now you know why my builds are always completly different from yours and based on different strategies... If i seat down in a tournament vs Mid-range decks i'll probably never losse against them (only if i became mana screw or something) but in matches that you need to find luck and the right cards one mistake is fatal... Generaly around Europe aggro is the most played arquetipe, that's true here in Portugal to where i face almost every tournament one zoo at least...

And now you see why Repeal is a key card that sometimes buy enough time to compensate the fact you miss a land drop...

One other thing is that in my opinion we should always pack so creatures hate in the sb...

Well, regards and good luck.

[GoldenCid]

Zoo match up is one the most worry me...they have good creatures and direct damage. I think, maybe, that HP is a good answer to them, a fast turn 3 / 4 beast horde could win the game if you countered some relevant spells...

Of course Repeal is use and maybe misstep is too.

What i find risky on playing green splash, is that the tropical island could appear in the opening hand and make us vulnerable to wasteland in the early game, loosing this way a land drop.

@Silent requiem: your list likes me a lot, i'm trying a similar one.

@Sepharus: you are the slidarity guru :P. Do you still pplay the protection pack of 2 repeal / 2 command + 2/3 Remand?

[Seraphus]

LOL thank you but no i m not a solidarity guru just a regular player as all of you, unfortunately, i can't physically train with solidarity only throughout mws... but from the few real life tournaments that i play i change only one card in my old list. Instead of having 2 Cryptic Command i have only one and add a twincast to the maindeck list (thanks to excessive counterwars and Merfolks matches)... But my sb is completely different... Dismember, flusterstorm and friends add too much to the sb ;)

Regarding MM: No cantrip no use for it ;)

[GoldenCid]

, i can't physically train with solidarity only throughout mws...

Sad to read that...

[rupus]

Congrats on another solid finish silent requiem. I hope you do well at nationals. I wasn't able to make it to the us champs unfortunately. I'll play in a local one tomorrow at least. The green splash is starting to appeal to me though. I don't have a trop but I might try to find one for next week.

Bonus: Coolest play I made this week. Vs team America I have an opt and a freeze he has 2 cards. He has lethal on board. I opt into a reset that I cast. He forces. I freeze myself and hit a flash on the last copy, flash my deck and just go through the motions to win. He was stunned.

[rupus]

Well, I just went 3-1 at a local 17 man tourney. I used the same list I posted a little back with a 3/3/3 split of remand misstep and force. I got 4 packs but mostly from luck and awesome prize support (seriously, all the x-1s ans better got packs regardless of tie breakers which seems awesome for a $5 entry). Anyways, here's a little report.

Round 1 - Mike with dredge

He wins the roll and I keep a good 7 but with no permission. He goes turn 1 putrid imp, turn 2 DR woodfall primus blowing up my 1 land and t3 lethal.

Game 2 he has a slow hand and his first move is a hard cast narco turn 2. O counter some flashbacked deep analysises ans dig a bit. Finally my hand is something like 2 tides 2 bf a ravenously trap I had wished for a while ago and maybe a reset. He's finally starting to get somewhere by ddd and he flashbacks a therapy. In response I play out my hand and end with my trap. Of course I didn't count his library and he's left with 6 cards and is able to breakthrough then swing for lethal after I topdeck a misstep. If I had trapped between the freezes he wouldn't have been able to breakthrough but he probably still would've got there. Anyways pretty bad plays on my part. After the game he says "I don't think you needed to bust your nut there. I was only going to rake your trap." Funny Guy.

Round 2 - Bye
Lame. I start to tilt a bit but figure its cool because its my first event with the deck and only my second legacy event ever which clears my head a bit.

Round 3 - Mike with Rb misstep goblins
Before the match we talk a bit and he says he just dropped the money for his Badlands earlier that day and I tell him about buying 4 commander decks for my flusterstorms and we talk a bit about the ridiculous prices. Anyways, he wins the roll and leads with a vial that I immediately force. He's the stuck on 2 lands for forever and has to cycle gempalms into nothing to dig for lands while poking me with a single piledriver. Eventually I have an insane hand and tons of land and am able to zenith him without any freezes.

Games 2 I misstep t1 lackey and force another t2. He then gets stuck on 1 land for like 3 or 4 turns. At one point he therapies me naming zenith because he was unfamiliar with the deck. He never flashes it back to name turnabout (which I had previously used to tap his dudes) but I had a brainstorm to protect my important cards anyway. Eventually I start going off and he mindbreaks my fourth spell (just a cycled flash I think) which I leave on the stack and continue to dig and make management until I find a cryptic for the trap. Eventually I freeze remand freeze and then wish for a zenith with mana to spare. Not the best win because of his management screw (I actually cast meditate pre combo both games because he didn't have any pressure. One was in my main to dig for land too!) but I'll take it because I think I played pretty tight with my counters and turnabouts.

Round 4 - Josh with Grim Tutor ANT
Before we start he tells me it's his first event with the deck and I say same here and we wish each other luck. I win the roll and elect to play. I play land go while he leads with a gitaxian pride and a duress (I think). For some reason I put him on reanimator for the longest time because even though he failed play any reanimator spells and he preordained. Eventually he starts to count storm and I realize what's really going on. He tutors for IGG which was probably correct seeing as I didn't have forces in my yard but I was able to remand it and he couldn't recast it. We draw go for a turn or two and he gets the mana to IGG again but I cycled a flash and flashbacked to find a force for it. We draw go some more and after some fetches and thoughseizes he is at 14 life and goes for infernal tutor (cracking an LED) for ad nauseum. I decide to let ad nauseum resolve figuring it might fizzle and if not I can piggy back on his storm. He goes down to 3 and decides to flip 1 more (I didn't count to see if he could kill me at that point but he had flipped around 10 cards or so already). I think he was looking for a discard or something but he flipped grim tutor and died.

Game 2 I went to 6 and kept a shaky 1 lander with no 1 mana cantrips but I ripped 2 lands. He picked apart my hand a bit and eventually I had 3 land and 2 tides a freeze and a flash when he went tutor for ad nauseum. I tried to decide if I should dig for a counter but I decide to let it resolve and hope to freeze him out in response to a cantrip or something. He starts flipping but I can tell he's tilting a bit and he loses track of his life and flips for lethal again. I think I could've pulled it off anyways, either by freezing him if he built enough storm or freezing myself for my other flash. I was one mana short of being able to cycle flash, flashback, pray for a reset and play it but I wouldn't have been able to stack my whole deck even if I did that. I felt kinda bad winning both games like that but it happens.

So even with awful breakers (a bye and being paired down round 4) I still got some packs and promptly ripped nothing from them. Oh well.

I felt like the deck was really solid. I only mulled once all day. Still, I want to try going back to 4 forces, either by cutting a misstep or just copy pasting silent requiems non green list. In conclusion, I had a blast playing the deck and all my opponents were super cool as was the staff and the prize support.

Props:
Solidarity for being the nnest deck ever :)
Everyone in this thread for keeping the dream alive
The store for hosting legacy weekly legacy and being pretty awesome in general
All my opps for being super cool
Me for actually doing reasonably well
Mountain Dew for keeping me sharp and more importantly awake

Slops:
Awful misplay vs. Dredge
Driving 45 minutes in the rain on the way there
Having to work in the morning tomorrow

[rupus]

Well, I just went 3-1 at a local 17 man tourney. I used the same list I posted a little back with a 3/3/3 split of remand misstep and force. I got 4 packs but mostly from luck and awesome prize support (seriously, all the x-1s and better got packs regardless of tie breakers which seems awesome for a $5 entry). Anyways, here's a little report.

Round 1 - Mike with dredge

He wins the roll and I keep a good 7 but with no permission. He goes turn 1 putrid imp, turn 2 DR woodfall primus blowing up my 1 land and t3 lethal.

Game 2 he has a slow hand and his first move is a hard cast narco turn 2. O counter some flashbacked deep analysises ans dig a bit. Finally my hand is something like 2 tides 2 bf a ravenously trap I had wished for a while ago and maybe a reset. He's finally starting to get somewhere by ddd and he flashbacks a therapy. In response I play out my hand and end with my trap. Of course I didn't count his library and he's left with 6 cards and is able to breakthrough then swing for lethal after I topdeck a misstep. If I had trapped between the freezes he wouldn't have been able to breakthrough but he probably still would've got there. Anyways pretty bad plays on my part. After the game he says "I don't think you needed to bust your nut there. I was only going to take your trap." Funny Guy.

Round 2 - Bye
Lame. I start to tilt a bit but figure its cool because its my first event with the deck and only my second legacy event ever which clears my head a bit.

Round 3 - Mike with Rb misstep goblins
Before the match we talk a bit and he says he just dropped the money for his Badlands earlier that day and I tell him about buying 4 commander decks for my flusterstorms and we talk a bit about the ridiculous prices. Anyways, he wins the roll and leads with a vial that I immediately force. He's the stuck on 2 lands for forever and has to cycle gempalms into nothing to dig for lands while poking me with a single piledriver. Eventually I have an insane hand and tons of land and am able to zenith him without any freezes.

Game 2 I misstep t1 lackey and force another t2. He then gets stuck on 1 land for like 3 or 4 turns. At one point he therapies me naming zenith because he was unfamiliar with the deck. He never flashes it back to name turnabout (which I had previously used to tap his dudes) but I had a brainstorm to protect my important cards anyway. Eventually I start going off and he mindbreaks my fourth spell (just a cycled flash I think) which I leave on the stack and continue to dig and make management until I find a cryptic for the trap. Eventually I freeze remand freeze and then wish for a zenith with mana to spare. Not the best win because of his management screw (I actually cast meditate pre combo both games because he didn't have any pressure. One was in my main to dig for land too!) but I'll take it because I think I played pretty tight with my counters and turnabouts.

Round 4 - Josh with Grim Tutor ANT
Before we start he tells me it's his first event with the deck and I say same here and we wish each other luck. I win the roll and elect to play. I play land go while he leads with a gitaxian pride and a duress (I think). For some reason I put him on reanimator for the longest time even though he failed play any reanimator spells and he preordained. Eventually he starts to count storm and I realize what's really going on. He tutors for IGG which was probably correct seeing as I didn't have forces in my yard but I was able to remand it and he couldn't recast it. We draw go for a turn or two and he gets the mana to IGG again but I cycled a flash and flashbacked to find a force for it. We draw go some more and after some fetches and thoughseizes he is at 14 life and goes for infernal tutor (cracking an LED) for ad nauseum. I decide to let ad nauseum resolve figuring it might fizzle and if not I can piggy back on his storm. He goes down to 3 and decides to flip 1 more (I didn't count to see if he could kill me at that point but he had flipped around 10 cards or so already). I think he was looking for a discard or something but he flipped grim tutor and died.

Game 2 I went to 6 and kept a shaky 1 lander with no 1 mana cantrips but I ripped 2 lands. He picked apart my hand a bit and eventually I had 3 land and 2 tides a freeze and a flash when he went tutor for ad nauseum. I tried to decide if I should dig for a counter but I decide to let it resolve and hope to freeze him out in response to a cantrip or something. He starts flipping but I can tell he's tilting a bit and he loses track of his life and flips for lethal again. I think I could've pulled it off anyways, either by freezing him if he built enough storm or freezing myself for my other flash. I was one mana short of being able to cycle flash, flashback, pray for a reset and play it but I wouldn't have been able to stack my whole deck even if I did that. I felt kinda bad winning both games like that but it happens.

So even with awful breakers (a bye and being paired down round 4) I still got some packs and promptly ripped nothing from them. Oh well.

I felt like the deck was really solid. I only mulled once all day. Still, I want to try going back to 4 forces, either by cutting a misstep or just copy pasting silent requiems non green list. In conclusion, I had a blast playing the deck and all my opponents were super cool as was the staff and the prize support.

Props:
Solidarity for being the best deck ever :)
Everyone in this thread for keeping the dream alive
The store for hosting legacy weekly legacy and being pretty awesome in general
All my opps for being super cool
Me for actually doing reasonably well
Mountain Dew for keeping me sharp and more importantly awake

Slops:
Awful misplay vs. Dredge
Not really having a chance for good flash of insight shenanigans
Driving 45 minutes in the rain on the way there
Having to work in the morning tomorrow

[Spigore]

Props:
Mountain Dew for keeping me sharp and more importantly awake


You got to fill me in on how to drink that stuff. Yuck!

[Silent Requiem]

Game 2 he has a slow hand and his first move is a hard cast narco turn 2. O counter some flashbacked deep analysises ans dig a bit. Finally my hand is something like 2 tides 2 bf a ravenously trap I had wished for a while ago and maybe a reset. He's finally starting to get somewhere by ddd and he flashbacks a therapy. In response I play out my hand and end with my trap. Of course I didn't count his library and he's left with 6 cards and is able to breakthrough then swing for lethal after I topdeck a misstep. If I had trapped between the freezes he wouldn't have been able to breakthrough but he probably still would've got there. Anyways pretty bad plays on my part. After the game he says "I don't think you needed to bust your nut there. I was only going to rake your trap." Funny Guy.

I'm not quite clear what went down here. What I'm getting is that you played Tide, Tide, Trap (to up the storm count), Freeze, Freeze, which left him with loads of stuff in his GY and 6 cards in his library.

You then go on to say that you could have cast Tide, Tide, Freeze, Freeze, Trap, which would have resulted zero cards in his GY but 12 more cards in his library.

Personally, if I had decided to go off there, I would have cast Tide, Tide, Trap - retain priority - Freeze - retain priority - Freeze. The Brain Freezes would have resolved before the Trap, but the trap would still have boosted the storm. He would have been left with no GY and only six cards in his library, which, even with a Narcomeba on the table, is unlikely to win him the game.

Edit: Of course, depending on the number of lands I had, I'd probably have cast Brain Freeze on myself.

[GGoober]

@silent Requiem: Your matchup against UW Stoneforge, did you feel it was worth fowing the SFM? Even with Batterskull, that's a 4 turn clock (so turn 6 death to the Solidarity player pending more creatures coming into play). I would imagine just eating the damage and saving the FoW for counter wars. I think Solidarity doesn't need to bother with SFM as much as other 'control' and combo (tendrils) deck does. I would like your insight on why you played the fow, were there other variables that affected the matchup or was it just a habit that we FoW bombs in Legacy?

[rupus]

I'm not quite clear what went down here. What I'm getting is that you played Tide, Tide, Trap (to up the storm count), Freeze, Freeze, which left him with loads of stuff in his GY and 6 cards in his library.

You then go on to say that you could have cast Tide, Tide, Freeze, Freeze, Trap, which would have resulted zero cards in his GY but 12 more cards in his library.

Personally, if I had decided to go off there, I would have cast Tide, Tide, Trap - retain priority - Freeze - retain priority - Freeze. The Brain Freezes would have resolved before the Trap, but the trap would still have boosted the storm. He would have been left with no GY and only six cards in his library, which, even with a Narcomeba on the table, is unlikely to win him the game.

Edit: Of course, depending on the number of lands I had, I'd probably have cast Brain Freeze on myself.

Well what happened was I went tide tide reset freeze freeze trap which left him with 6 with no yard. If I had trapped between the freezes he would've been at 3 but with a pretty big yard. I didn't even think of trapping and freezing in response which would've definitely been the right play but I don't think he had dredged that turn because he had discarded therapy instead of his dredger. Freezing myself was probably the right play because I had plenty of mana. I just panicked and hoped to get the without thinking it all the way through.

EDIT: I could've gone freeze trap and freeze number 2 in response which would've left him with 3 and no yard. Freezing myself probably would've been better though.

Also, I've been thinking about g2 vs ANT and I think I should've either played flash for 0 (if that's a legal play) then flashed it back to dig for a force. I had 7 or 8 cards in my yard and 2 forces left. Either that or freeze myself and hope to hit my other flash before my 2 forces. Or maybe built as much storm as I could and freeze him in response to the ad nauseum and hope to hit his business (he didn't play wishes but I don't know how many tendrils he had. Probably 1 or 2). How would you guys have played it? Here's the gamestate as best as I can remember: I had 2 islands and 1 fetch all untapped. He had 3 tapped lands and a lotus petal with no mana floating and no cards in hand. Ad nauseum was on the stack. Ad nauseum was the 5th spell that turn. He was at 17 and I was at 19. I believe he had 46 cards left in his library. I had 5 or 6 spells in my yard which I think were force, misstep, impulse, reset and opt and 47 cards in my library (I had cracked a fetch already).

EDIT EDIT: What I meant is that I would have 7 or 8 cards in my yard to feed flash after casting my 2 tides.

ONE MORE EDIT: Vs dredge I forget if I had a reset or not but either way I had 5 or 6 lands and 2 tides so I had plenty of mana.

PROBABLY THE LAST EDIT: Vs ANT I boarded out 1 turnabout 1 cryptic and I think 1 remand for 3 flusterstorms.

BLAH: @Metalwalker, I don't want to speak for silent, but I probably would've made the same play because we tend to have better game going long vs control so in such a threat light deck you either but a ton of turns or eat a counter. Of course if Jace landed 2 turns later that's quite rough but it's possible to win through him and he's a much slower clock.

Also, in case you didn't catch it from my last post I had 2 tide, flash, and bf in my hand. Vs ANT that is.

[rupus]

Alright, I edited that post enough already plus I want to bump this thread again :P

My math skills are quite awful but I think that Vs ANT the best play would've been to go tide, tide, flash for 0, freeze him. That would mill 27 so if he had only 1 copy of Tendrils that's ~60% chance of hitting it and if he had 2 it's about a 40% chance (I think). If I decided to go tide, tide, flash for 0, flash back removing 7 that's ~30% of hitting one of my forces. If I tried to go tide, tide, freeze myself and hope to hit my last flash before my forces that's significantly less I think (but I don't know how much) plus it could potentially ruin my ability to win. The last option would be let AN resolve and hope he wouldn't flip the tendrils so that depending on how much he flipped and how many more spells he needed for the setup (at least 3 spells I think: dark rit/LED/I Tutor or dark rit/dark rit/grim tutor) which would probably mean that I could get his whole library or at the very least vastly increase my chances of hitting his tendrils (36 cards + however many he flipped). Still, I'm not sure what the actual percentage of him flipping a tendrils would be or it's possible he could cantrip into one without pushing storm high enough for me to deck him. This option has too much variance that I don't think there's even a way to put a percentage on it. Anyways, he did flip into a tendrils which meant that if he didn't kill himself I needed to hope that he played some mana then some cantrips to build storm high enough that I could freeze him in response to a cantrip for lethal.

Also, is flash for 0 a legal play? It doesn't say x can't be 0 so I assumed it would be and for example green sun's zenith can be for 0. It just seems weird to cast a flash for 0 and something about it makes me wonder if it's legal.

[wolfstorm]

I'm not quite clear what went down here. What I'm getting is that you played Tide, Tide, Trap (to up the storm count), Freeze, Freeze, which left him with loads of stuff in his GY and 6 cards in his library.

You then go on to say that you could have cast Tide, Tide, Freeze, Freeze, Trap, which would have resulted zero cards in his GY but 12 more cards in his library.

Personally, if I had decided to go off there, I would have cast Tide, Tide, Trap - retain priority - Freeze - retain priority - Freeze. The Brain Freezes would have resolved before the Trap, but the trap would still have boosted the storm. He would have been left with no GY and only six cards in his library, which, even with a Narcomeba on the table, is unlikely to win him the game.

Edit: Of course, depending on the number of lands I had, I'd probably have cast Brain Freeze on myself.



I think he did tide tide freeze freeze trap which left 6 cards in the library and no gy, if he had done tide tide trap -retain- priority double freeze it would of hit the entire library and left nothing in the yard right?

[rupus]

I think he did tide tide freeze freeze trap which left 6 cards in the library and no gy, if he had done tide tide trap -retain- priority double freeze it would of hit the entire library and left nothing in the yard right?

Gah! Doesn't anyone read my posts? I explained this already. You are right about what happened except that I couldn't trap before the first freeze because he had discarded a therapy instead of his dredger last turn. What I could've done is tide tide freeze trap hold priority freeze number 2 which would've left him at 3 in the library with no yard. Freezing my self was probably the correct play however.

EDIT: I don't know if he would've been able to get there in 3 turns but my life was getting kinda low from narco pokes (maybe a zombie or 2 as well).

[Silent Requiem]

@silent Requiem: Your matchup against UW Stoneforge, did you feel it was worth fowing the SFM? Even with Batterskull, that's a 4 turn clock (so turn 6 death to the Solidarity player pending more creatures coming into play). I would imagine just eating the damage and saving the FoW for counter wars. I think Solidarity doesn't need to bother with SFM as much as other 'control' and combo (tendrils) deck does. I would like your insight on why you played the fow, were there other variables that affected the matchup or was it just a habit that we FoW bombs in Legacy?

As I had won game one, I was on the draw. My opening seven was a slowish hand; plenty of draw, some combo pieces, an FoW and a superfluous card (say, Cryptic Command or an extra Turnabout). I decided to keep, as I had the tools to slow him down, and had most of the cards I needed to combo. So I knew even before he started playing that I was likely to use FoW to buy time; the "dead" card and the card advantage of being on the draw allowed me to do so in reasonable safety.

When he played the turn two Stoneforge, I considered whether or not to counter. I knew from game one that he played both Batterskull and Jitte, and this means he is a little faster than "just" Batterskull. I've also played against this player before, and he knows that Jace is often a poor play against me unless you have plenty of disruption (I often kill people with their own Jace activations). This meant that his deck was very threat light. Stopping his clock early might well buy me several turns.

There were three possibilities I considered:

1) If I don't counter, he gets +1 card advantage and a clock.

2) If I FoW and he has no counter backup (or choses not to use it), he gets +1 card advantage, but no clock. The quality of his card advantage will be lower, though, as I get to discard a superfluous card.

3) If I FoW and he counter Forces, we get the same result as 1), but now has one less counter to stop me comboing off.

Based on the above factors, Forcing the Stoneforge seemed like the right play. Even in hindsight, I'm still happy with the decision.

What I did not consider (because the odds were so low) was that he might have a second Stoneforge in hand. Forcing the Stoneforge was still correct, in my view (his clock would have been much faster if I had not), I simply did not gain as much time as I had hoped for. My slow hand, plus some poor luck (falling behind on land drops, and so having to dig for land in my own turn), meant that I was tapped out when he had lethal on the board.

[Ninakoru]

Rupus and requiem, many thanks for your reports, quite illustrating for me.


Also, is flash for 0 a legal play? It doesn't say x can't be 0 so I assumed it would be and for example green sun's zenith can be for 0. It just seems weird to cast a flash for 0 and something about it makes me wonder if it's legal.

You can play FoI with X = 0, I'm quite sure about it.

BTW, I've been goldfishing Th00mor's deck, previously posted on this board.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2608689

I conclusion: Just too slow. I tried 6 times with this results:

- I fizzled 3 of them, 2 on T4 and eve one on T7!! All of them I locked myself with hands full of lands and counters.

- I have successfully decked the 'enemy 'twice on T4, but it's not game over until his next turn.

- I have successfuly killed the 'enemy' (decked + BSZ) once, on T3 without starting draw!!! lucky me, 2 tides, reset, meditate on the first turns, & some luck did the trick.

I can conclude, 20 lands for this deck is too much. 7 counters is a good number for the first match, I think. I guess this guy was successful because he was able to delay going off for more than 4 turns consistently.

¿What do you think of 1 High tide on SB for wish? I guess that's safe against Extirpate, Surgery andthose combo-killers, but's so situational, I prefer having the 4th tide on MB, I am equally ****ed if my opponent target reset, after all. Anyways I find myself most of the time wishing for Meditate, and sometimes for Turnabout.

Regards.

[mtgaddict]

Hi,

I'm french and I built my Solidarity deck severals years ago. I've always gold-fished (for trainning) or played against casual players. :wink: This year, I tried a Legacy tournament with a 1-1-4 result. No surprise, I didn't know Legacy and his metagame : unable to identify opponent's key cards to counter in order to slow down them or not die. :laugh:

I played his old list (post-MBS/NPH) :
MD :
- 12x Island
- 4x Scalding Tarn
- 2x Misty Rainforest

- 4x High Tide
- 4x Reset
- 3x Turnabout
- 3x Brain Freeze
- 4x Brainstorm
- 3x Cunning Wish
- 2x Flash of Insight
- 4x Force of will
- 4x Impulse
- 3x Meditate
- 3x Opt
- 1x Peek
- 3x Remand
- 1x Twincast

SB :
- 1x Brain Freeze
- 1x Meditate
- 1x Turnabout
- 1x Stroke of Genius
- 1x Twincast
- 2x Echoing Truth
- 2x Hydroblast
- 2x Wipe Away
- 1x Chain of vapor
- 1x Hurkyl's Recall
- 1x Ravenous Trap
- 1x Mindbreak Trap

How, I'm not an regular Legacy player (too few tournaments in my city), I would like to talk about matchup and sideboard (on the draw/on the play) with you in order to improve my tournament performance. :smile:

At time, I'm starting to update my list with the last Silent Requiem's list. I didn't like to splash green for HP (I'm so happy to see an opponent's hand full of Wastelands) but more I think about more I think it is a reasonable risk. So, when did you side in your four Flusterstorm ? I would like to understand the presence of these cards before investing in 4 commander packs ! :tongue:

Thanks a lot for this great thread and yours helps !

PS : I'm sorry for my rusty english... :rolleyes:

[Silent Requiem]

I can conclude, 20 lands for this deck is too much. 7 counters is a good number for the first match, I think. I guess this guy was successful because he was able to delay going off for more than 4 turns consistently.


With respect, I've played 100s of goldfish hands with very similar builds (FoW over MM, but that makes no difference for gold fishing) and had very different results. I don't think there is anything wrong with decklist you linked.

That said, I do prefer PtD over Opt when playing with 20 lands.


I didn't like to splash green for HP (I'm so happy to see an opponent's hand full of Wastelands) but more I think about more I think it is a reasonable risk. So, when did you side in your four Flusterstorm ? I would like to understand the presence of these cards before investing in 4 commander packs !

In truth, I think 4 Flusterstorm was more than I needed - I never sided in more than 2 or 3 - but I did not run into any fast combo. Flusterstorm helps any matchup where the opponent wants to resolve important sorceries or instants. This includes:

Reanimator
Show and Tell
Landstill
Discard
Storm combo
Hypergenesis
Dredge
Merfolk
Etc

Basically, anything that isn't aggro. It's simply a broken, broken spell. I've had a couple of tournament games where it has countered more than one spell at a time. I don't see it ever coming out of my sideboard.

[rupus]

With respect, I've played 100s of goldfish hands with very similar builds (FoW over MM, but that makes no difference for gold fishing) and had very different results. I don't think there is anything wrong with decklist you linked.

That said, I do prefer PtD over Opt when playing with 20 lands.



In truth, I think 4 Flusterstorm was more than I needed - I never sided in more than 2 or 3 - but I did not run into any fast combo. Flusterstorm helps any matchup where the opponent wants to resolve important sorceries or instants. This includes:

Reanimator
Show and Tell
Landstill
Discard
Storm combo
Hypergenesis
Dredge
Merfolk
Etc

Basically, anything that isn't aggro. It's simply a broken, broken spell. I've had a couple of tournament games where it has countered more than one spell at a time. I don't see it ever coming out of my sideboard.

Flusterstorm is so awesome. I love the feeling of building up a huge stack then just hitting everything with flusterstorm, especially if one of their "real" spells is on the bottom of the stack. It feels like I'm just machine gunning everything off the stack. Not to mention flusterstorm + remand is basically a 3 mana counter than doesn't even cost a card (assuming they don't have enough mana that you need the original to resolve). It also leads to some funny lolwut? moments when opponents have no idea what the card is. 3 in the board feels fine for me. I agree with you about PtD if you are running 20 lands.

@Ninakoru: Thanks for the info (about flash that is). Definitely a good thing to know. I've been playing 1 tide in the board, but as far as I can tell that's something that has been debated forever and there's no real answer other than play what feels right to you. Besides it "just working" for me, I think the fact that any deck can play a free (albiet not uncounterable) Extirpate makes it a reasonable call. Granted, unless they resolve multiple extirpate effects you can always go off through one because no one piece is essential (if they hit reset you can just use tides and turnabouts, if they hit tide you just have to lean a bit heavier of reset, if they hit anything else you just chuckle). For what it's worth I find myself wishing for BSZ more than anything else.

@Silent Requiem (and everyone else too): Thanks for explaining your play of forcing the mystic. It seems like a very good play when you put it into terms of CA like that and I'm definitely going to start keeping CA vs card quality vs clocks in mind. I'm still interested to hear how you would've played that hand of mine in G2 vs ANT. For reference again, here was the current game state (as best as I can remember):
Me
Hand: 2 tides, BF, FoI
Board: 2 Island, 1 fetch all untapped
Yard: fetch, force, misstep, impulse, reset and opt
Life: 19
Mana floating: none
The force had been hit by duress so there was nothing pitched and 47 cards in my library.

Him
Hand: none
Board: 1 tapped island, 1 tapped trop, 1 tapped underground sea, 1 lotus petal
Yard: not super relevant but he had the pieces to go for an IGG loop, however my force would've shut that down. (He couldn't IGG for duress, infernal tutor, LED because it wouldn't have produced enough mana or storm, which is why I think he went for AN in the first place).
Life: 17
Mana floating: none
He had 46 yards in his library. He was playing UB with a green splash for xantid swarms so there were no wishes to worry about but I do not know if he had 1 or 2 tendrils (it's very unlikely he had 3 or 4).

Ad nauseum was on the stack and it was the fifth spell played that turn. Looking back, I think that the most correct play would've been to go tide, tide, flash for 0, freeze him in response to AN and hope to hit enough business that he couldn't go off. Maybe there's some play that I'm missing that would've gaurenteed a win though. What would you have done.

[mtgaddict]

@Silent Requiem : Thanks for the explaination. What do you side out in this case (merfolk matchup for sample) ?

@rupus : I didn't know the trick with Remand. It's really fun ! Thx !

How many copies of Brain Freeze targeting yourself do you usually put in the stack in order to find Flash of Insight or to clean dead cards from Brainstorm ?

How do you play the Elf matchup ? This deck is too fast for me and I'm very bothered by Wirewood Symbiote (cancel bounce target) or Summoner's Pact (cancel tap all effect for Nettle Sentinel).

[Ninakoru]

With respect, I've played 100s of goldfish hands with very similar builds (FoW over MM, but that makes no difference for gold fishing) and had very different results. I don't think there is anything wrong with decklist you linked.

That said, I do prefer PtD over Opt when playing with 20 lands.

Uh, I will goldfish some more once I get more free time. I guess 6 games is not enough to get accurate feelings of how the engine works. I guess PtD is a better option in those builds, but I think having extra cantrip to rise chances to sculpt your hand in T1 is quite important.


For reference again, here was the current game state (as best as I can remember):

...

If you don't mind I will put my personal reasoning in this situations.

The opponent is going off, he has a combo deck that has quite HIGH chances to kill you inmediately in that situation, you don't have chance of correct answers other than using the BF.

You are probably going to lose, so your best bet is to interact in some way to lower his chances of success, so exactly that:

AN -> Tide -> Tide -> FoI X=0 -> BF

And see what happens.

Regards.

[Dark Ritual]

You play flash of insight twice in the spell chain to get one more storm and potentially find another card in the top X cards to up the storm count further, increasing your chances. But yes in response to AN I would tide tide FoI for 0, FoI for almost all the blue cards in your GY sans force of will and one blue card (for IGG), try to find a card to play off the top that ups the storm count, then brainfreeze them.

[rupus]

@mtgaddict
I actually just discovered that the other day. It seems like every time I play the deck I learn a new interaction and that's what I love about it. When I freeze myself to remove chaff from a brainstorm I usually just put 1 copy targeting myself but in some situations I leave 2 or more (if I have another BS in hand or I think I might need a flash too). I'm I do it to get a flash in my yard I usually just put all of them at myself became if it whiffs I'm o dead anyways because freezing myself for flash is my last plan and I don't know how many cards I will need to feed it (obviously I don't do it for more than my library and leave the copies in the stack once I hit flash and enough blue cards). That way I have extras in case I need another flash or to remove chaff from a freeze or something. I've never played vs elves but I would imagine there's only a few cards you really want to counter. Glimpse of nature is the biggest problem probably followed by visionary and lords. Symbiote doesn't matter so much without visionary generating CA and without glimpse or lords it's really just a bunch of 1/1s. If they do get a lord into play then you need to stop quirion ranger otherwise they might be able to get enough mana to do something dirty. Cunning wish for hibernation seems like a good play too but it's kind of slow. Maybe that's a situation where you might want to blow some tides or resets just to get it off earlier. Like I said I've never played elves though so maybe silent requiem or seraphus or someone else has a better answer for you.

@ninakoru

Yeah that probably would've been the best line of play. Luckily for me he ended up losing to his own flips but it always kind of sucks to win a game like that.

@Dark Ritual
Unfortunately, if I flashed twice I would've been out of mana. The only reason to do that would be to dig for a force but I think freezing him like ninakoru said would've been better from a statistical standpoint. If I was playing 4 forces and hadn't used any or had 1 mana open (for a flusterstorm) then that would've been the right play I think.

[mtgaddict]

I actually just discovered that the other day. It seems like every time I play the deck I learn a new interaction and that's what I love about it. When I freeze myself to remove chaff from a brainstorm I usually just put 1 copy targeting myself but in some situations I leave 2 or more (if I have another BS in hand or I think I might need a flash too). I'm I do it to get a flash in my yard I usually just put all of them at myself became if it whiffs I'm o dead anyways because freezing myself for flash is my last plan and I don't know how many cards I will need to feed it (obviously I don't do it for more than my library and leave the copies in the stack once I hit flash and enough blue cards). That way I have extras in case I need another flash or to remove chaff from a freeze or something.
It's exactly what I do. I'm not too bad ! Thanks for your explaination.


I've never played vs elves but I would imagine there's only a few cards you really want to counter. Glimpse of nature is the biggest problem probably followed by visionary and lords. Symbiote doesn't matter so much without visionary generating CA and without glimpse or lords it's really just a bunch of 1/1s. If they do get a lord into play then you need to stop quirion ranger otherwise they might be able to get enough mana to do something dirty. Cunning wish for hibernation seems like a good play too but it's kind of slow. Maybe that's a situation where you might want to blow some tides or resets just to get it off earlier. Like I said I've never played elves though so maybe silent requiem or seraphus or someone else has a better answer for you.
In fact, I sided in Repeal for Elf matchup but they were useless. I didn't think to blow tide and reset in order to Cunning Wish an Hibernation.
For the game 1, I would like to use the storm count of the elf player. But it is very hard to count the storm and the cards in the library discreetly in order to combo on in response to an Glimpse of nature's trigger. Anyone has a trick ?

[overseer1234]

It's exactly what I do. I'm not too bad ! Thanks for your explaination.


In fact, I sided in Repeal for Elf matchup but they were useless. I didn't think to blow tide and reset in order to Cunning Wish an Hibernation.
For the game 1, I would like to use the storm count of the elf player. But it is very hard to count the storm and the cards in the library discreetly in order to combo on in response to an Glimpse of nature's trigger. Anyone has a trick ?

Well, using their stormcount is usually the best plan. And keeping the stormcount isnt that difficult, and you usualy dont need to worry about how high it is, or how many card they have left since usualy its more then enough stormcount. Also they tend to draw the most of their deck themselves.

[rupus]

It's exactly what I do. I'm not too bad ! Thanks for your explaination.


In fact, I sided in Repeal for Elf matchup but they were useless. I didn't think to blow tide and reset in order to Cunning Wish an Hibernation.
For the game 1, I would like to use the storm count of the elf player. But it is very hard to count the storm and the cards in the library discreetly in order to combo on in response to an Glimpse of nature's trigger. Anyone has a trick ?

Well games 2 and 3 shouldn't be a problem as you can count openly, they already know your deck. Even though most Elves decks have switched to Emrakul as their kill some used to and probably still do play Grapeshot or Brainfreeze as their kill so if you are keeping track of storm it might not be too suspicious. Cards in library is something that I also have trouble keeping track of and I'm trying to do it better. The best way I've found so far is just making tick marks on my lifepad then subtracting them from 60. It's a bit suspicious to be doing that and there's probably a good chance that a smart player will put you on a tide deck if they notice but I think it's worth it to be able to have that information immediately available to you. With some practice I'm sure that's something you could do in your head but I find myself already trying to keep track of so many things I don't trust myself to keep it straight in my head.

EDIT: Also, don't wait until you are about to go off to do your counting, keep track of it with a die or on your lifepad while they are comboing.

EDIT EDIT: Keeping track of things on paper is always better than using die. If there's a dispute judges will side with the person who has something written down 9 times out of 10.

[mtgaddict]

@overseer1234 : You're true. But I would like to know when I can combo on before they stop their combo. ;)

@rupus : I think that the ticks are really suspicious. :) When my opponent knows that I play Solidarity, I count on my lifepad. So, at game 1, I count the storm only when I want to slow down him :

- Elf: "I don't play storm"
- Me : "Ok"
- Elf: "Oh, I... End of turn"
:P

At time, I try to not fizzle, count already main played cards and don't forget FoI in graveyard. When I'll do it perfectly, I'll try to memorize stacked cards in the bottom of the library (is there any pattern to stack cards with FoI ?). The final step will be to count (in my head) remaining cards in opponent library and opponent storm count.

[rupus]

Well, disappointing night for me. I went 0-2 drop.

Round 1 - David with 4c Countertop
He won the roll and led with trop, top. I had a sketchy 5 land hand and just went land go. He had turn 2 balance and I almost scooped it up. Anyways, he eventually had a big 2/3 pinging me for a while while I hit my land drops and got a cantrip in every now and then. I had like 7 lands in play and be had lethal if I passed back so I put a bunch of stuff on the stack and eventually he was tapped out with a 3 on top. Storm was at 5 and I had a freeze and an impulse. Impulse hit freeze number 2 and that was that. Game 2 and three he had top balance and got beats with a pretty fast clique and I couldn't do it. At one point I messed up and froze myself with only 1 storm and he countered it with the balance. I scooped it up but I forgot there was still 1 copy. It probably wouldn't have mattered but it probably didn't matter because I needed a flash in those 3.

Round 2 - Tom with Merfolk
G1 I cantripped a bit and couldn't force through a turnabout to stop lethal. Same with g2 except he wasn't quite as fast. I tried to go off but miscounted my mana and was 2 short of freezing myself flashing back FoI and praying for a reset. I think I could've got there but I payed mana for a misstep otherwise I would've had the extra 2. Oh well.

Round 3 they repaired and I got a bye so I just left instead of sticking around for round 4.

I was happy to beat countertop at least once. I'm convinced I need to go back to 4 force. One the plus side I picked up a trop so I'm going to try silent's green list next week.

@mtgaddict
Game one they probably won't stop until they have emrakul so you should be safe. Otherwise you can always just go off on their EOT if they break the chain early so that shouldn't be a huge problem. Sure getting them with a glimpse trigger is cool but trap or extraction can deal with emrakul and letting them die on their draw step works just as well.

For FoI I always put business on top and land on bottom but unless you are stacking the majority of your deck it doesn't matter too much. Generally I put meditate on top and make the 4 below some combination of tides, untaps and cantrips. This is a good thing to do because you can stack it so that if meditate resolves you have the ability to play through the rest of the cantrips below it. Still, if its not the majority of your deck its not a huge deal but its good practice.

[Silent Requiem]

I'm having a really difficult time deciding what build to take to nationals (and, by extension, GP Amsterdam).

PtD or Opt?

Green splash or mono blue?

4 Tides main or 1 in the Wishboard?


My gut feeling is that Opt is better than PtD right now. I'm also thinking about going back to 4 Tide in the maindeck, because it's harder to be disruptive when you need to cast Cunning Wish before you combo. This suggests a deck very similar to the one in the opening post, which makes a certain sense. The banning of Mystical Tutor and the printing of Mental Mistep have slowed the format significantly, pushing the fundamental turn back to near where it was when Solidarity was last a contender.

But I also feel that the Green splash is pretty strong in a random meta, and that suggests 4 Wishes, which in turn suggests 1 Tide in the wishboard.

I hate these transitional periods where I have to review every last detail of my build.

[Seraphus]

I'm having a really difficult time deciding what build to take to nationals (and, by extension, GP Amsterdam).

PtD or Opt?

Green splash or mono blue?

4 Tides main or 1 in the Wishboard?


My gut feeling is that Opt is better than PtD right now. I'm also thinking about going back to 4 Tide in the maindeck, because it's harder to be disruptive when you need to cast Cunning Wish before you combo. This suggests a deck very similar to the one in the opening post, which makes a certain sense. The banning of Mystical Tutor and the printing of Mental Mistep have slowed the format significantly, pushing the fundamental turn back to near where it was when Solidarity was last a contender.

But I also feel that the Green splash is pretty strong in a random meta, and that suggests 4 Wishes, which in turn suggests 1 Tide in the wishboard.

I hate these transitional periods where I have to review every last detail of my build.

So in the end your building will end up like or very similar to mine?

When that happens or if that happens tell me because a would like to discuss some existential doubts i have regarding my sb + sb plans. Doubts that unfortunately only experienced players can help.

[Ninakoru]

PtD or Opt?

This is quite interesting. I think Opt is quite bad in itself, but it has a solid place in Solidarity, because is the best we have for that slot:

- Along with Brainstorm is the only "do something on T1" spell we have.
- Can help us to find a land on the first turns.

This points can't be covered with PtD even if is a much better cantrip, specially mid-combo, but you can try another approach if you play with mental misstep and FoW.

Basically, instead of the classic:

4 Opt
4 FoW

you could go with:

2 Opt
2 PtD
3 MM
1 Twincast

You get 5 "do something on T1" instead of 4, and 2 Opt / 2 PtD would get a much better cantrip ability. I think FoW hurt the deck so badly I prefer to go with remand + twincast to cover the hardcast counter arsenal, but I guess that's quite hard to get the best card of the format out of any deck.


This suggests a deck very similar to the one in the opening post, which makes a certain sense.

Yeah, I think that David Gearhart's version, only making changes to SB, is a more than valid solidarity deck to go to play with in a competitive tourney. The only cards that don't synergize at all with the deck are the FoW, any other card can have several purposes, or is so basic to the deck you can't touch it. Is a fact that solidarity didn't get any "just better card" that can effectively replace without drawbacks any of the initial cards listed on David Gearhart's Main Deck 5 years ago.

[Spigore]

Hey SR,

Good to see you're going for Amsterdam as well.
I'll be there as well and so is Seraphus. I'm pretty sure about playing Solidarity.

Lately I'm having pretty much good results from VoB. I don't know if you tried it alongside Opt? In combination with Opt/Brainstorm it's pretty sweet and obviously with 20 cards in any graveyard it's completely insane.

@Ninakoru; You are in someway right regarding the original list. However; the meta has changed to a much faster pace. Although not an auto 4-of, MM is needed to survive through crucial counterwars.
Next to that, several players tried a FoW-less build but all concluded that it is definately an auto 4-of. Even though it's major card disadvantage, having that crucial spell countered is a must to keep you in the game.

[Silent Requiem]

This is the first of several posts reviewing my performance (and by extention the performance of Solidarity) at the UK Legacy Nationals and the GP Amsterdam Trial.

I'll be reserving a couple of posts so that I can keep the posts together. I would ask that the moderaters bear with me for this.

Saturday, 20th August.

I traveled to Sheffield with ManaLeak teamate Stuart; ManaLeak was putting about 10 people into Nationals, although not all of them in Legacy events.

We made it to the venue in good time, but I still felt a little rushed, as finding a decent lunch proved difficult. Still, I got registered in time, and even managed to resleeve my deck before game 1.


The list:



Land

13 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn

Mana/Untap

4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
4 Reset

Draw

3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
4 Impulse
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm

Protection

4 Force of Will
1 Cryptic Command
3 Remand

Other

2 Brain Freeze
3 Cunning Wish

Sideboard

1 BSZ
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Rebuild
1 Hibernation
1 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mental Misstep
1 Ravenous Trap
3 Surgical Extraction

Deck choices:

I went with Opt over PtD simply because I feel it is right for a highly disruptive meta. I went with 4 Tides in the main because it is more explosive (if less consistent). In hindsight, I'm not sure if this was the right choice, but I'll talk about that more in the analysis.

Hunting Pack was dropped because it's not very reliable if you only have 3 Wishes, which I did because I removed one when I brought the Tide in from the sideboard.

I dropped Mindbreak Trap at the last minute, partly because I did not expect to see other Storm players (Storm is a poor choice right now), and partly because Flusterstorm and MM also do what Mindbreak Trap used to do.

Ravenous trap is a holdover from before SE, and although SE is not as strong against Dredge, that single matchup is probably not enough to justify keeping it. Surgical Extraction, though, is randomly broken, and I expected to see lots of Reanimator.


The tournament: Amsterdam PQ

Round 1 - David with Stoneforge

David tried pretty hard to fake Dredge. He "casually" mentioned his Zombie tokens that he had put on the table to the person next to him. When I did not give any indication that I had heard him, he tried a little harder, talking about how his zombies wanted to eat my brains. I just rolled my eyes and kept shuffling.

Ironically, if he had actually turned out to be playing Dredge I would have been very surprised.

When we started playing, I had to mull to five, which really hurt. Still, he did not have too much pressure, and I managed to recover from the mull and win at three life.

However, fighting back from that kind of card disadvantage too a very long time; 54 minutes in fact. It surprised nobody that game 2 was a draw for running out of time. Win for me.


Round 2 - Roman with Zoo

Game 1: Roman keeps a fast hand and he forces me to go off with only three lands in play. I get there, but only just.

Game 2: I Force the T1 Nacatl, but he has a second one. I'm forced to go off with three lands again, but don't make it this time.

Game 3: He has double Nacatls again, but this time I can't even counter them. I managed to cast Hybernation, but it only buys me a single turn, which is not enough; I couldn't find High Tide.

Loss for me, but some hard fought games.


Round 3 - Matt with TNT

Game 1: I have no clue I'm playing against fast combo, so I keep a decent hand with no disruption. When he goes off on turn three I have only two lands in play. I minicombo to remove half his deck; I'm hoping to remove his wincons. I get his single maindeck Tendrils into the graveyard, but he has a Burning Wish in hand for the sideboard copy.

Game 2: I hard fought game, but Flusterstorm is simply godlike in this matchup.

Game 3: A struggle of epic proportions, we had quite a crowd gathered to watch us play. In the end, I managed to shut him down long enough to go off myself, and steal the win.

Match win for me; easily the best set of games I played all weekend. The storm v storm match is unlike any other.


Round 4 - Amar with NO RUG

Game 1: I had everything I needed to go off, but there was no pressure, so I waited. Clique on my turn removed my High Tide, and I was not able to find another before Progenitus beat me down.

Game 2: A very close game, with a strong counter war at the start. I got there in the end, though, and took the win. It required me to Freeze myself, however, and stack my deck.

Game 3: We only had 10 min left on the round and Amar (who was very, um, competitive) was freaking out that we might draw. He urged me to hurry with my shuffling, which I did - winning/drawing on time is not something I'll do if I can help it. However, this meant that my deck was not properly shuffled when I drew (keep in mind that I had stacked my deck the game before) so my opening hand was six lands and a Force. Obviously, I threw that back.

I pile shuffled again, but this time I drew a no land hand, which I also threw back. I started pile shuffling again, and Amar calls a judge. He complains that I'm not dealing with my mull/hand decisions fast enough because I'm pile shuffling each time. The judge doesn't say anything right away, so I tell Amar exactly what my two hands were, and then tell him that I'm not going to play an unkeepable hand just to satisfy his sense of timing. The judge says nothing but stays to watch.

I've mulled to five and get 3 lands, a FoI and something else. I keep. We play hard, and it's a close game. I go off, and counter magic means I have only one draw spell in hand by the time Amar is out of counters: Brainstorm.

This is not too bad, as I have a fetchland in play, and a land in hand. I cast Brainstorm and see another Brainstorm and two lands. I keep the Brainstorm, and shuffle away the two lands. I'm right back where I started, but with no fetch.

I cast again, and see Opt and two lands. Absolutely heartbreaking, especially as I had really wanted to serve Amar with a match loss.

Easily my least enjoyable opponent - in fact, my only unpleasant opponent - and a match loss for me. This puts me out of contention for the top 8.


Round 5 - Ian with Merfolk

Game 1: Ian has to mull to five and topdecks three Vials. I stomp all over him.

Game 2: A very close game, I end up one mana short of being able to deck him and prevent lethal. Close doesn't count, though.

Game 3: A rough start through countermagic forces me to Brainfreeze myself, but at that point I am able to win.

Another match win for me.


Round 6 - Jack with Merfolk

I felt rough - I had been traveling since early morning, and it was now late at night - and I thought about dropping, which I should have done. I was off my game, and Jack stomped all over me. Game 1 I could not find High Tide, and Game 2 I could not find any draw.


Final results: 3-3, giving me 24th place out of 53 players.

[Silent Requiem]

Sunday, 21st August

I went with the same deck list, as I would rather play with a slightly suboptimal build that I am familiar with than a deck that is slightly better, but unfamiliar.

The tournament: UK Legacy Nationals


Round 1 - Luke with Pox

Game 1: My heart sinks when he plays the first Smallpox. I've tested against this deck, and it's a hugely unfavourable matchup. I fight the good fight, though, trying to stabilize long enough to go off. It never happens.

Game 2: I board in all three Surgical Extractions. I draw the first one when I Brainstorm in response to a Smallpox. He has two Bayou and a Factory; I'm pretty sure that he'll sacrifice the Factory to the Smallpox because he has a Life from the Loam in the graveyard. I let the Smallpox resolve and then hit the Loam with SE once the Factory is gone. He now has no clock, and no recursion.

He does have a Chalice for 1, though. I wish for Rebuild, and eventually use it early; rather than clear the way for a High Tide, I clear the way for another SE, which hits his Factory. He now has only one way of killing me (the recurring shade who's name escapes me), and it turns out that my SE was just in time - Factory was his next draw.

I now have inevitability, and go off without High Tide many turns later.

There is no time for a game 3, so the match is a draw.


Round 2 - Rory with Blue Zoo

Game 1: I get land flooded, topdecking nothing but Islands for several turns. It's enough for Rory to put the game away.

Game 2: Fighting through a great deal of countermagic, I manage to snatch the win a turn before he has lethal.

Game 3: I have a rubbish hand, with my early dig having found me nothing. I risk a turn 3 Meditate, which is my only draw spell. I survived the two turns (he had a slow hand, or I would not have risked it), but the Meditate failed to find me a High Tide. I wasn't able to turn the game around.

Loss for me.


Round 3 - Patch with Enchantress

Game 1: Enchantress has a rough time against Storm, and he had no outs in game 1.

Game 2: A Sundial of the Infinite made life very difficult for me. I could not cast anything on his turn unless he had something on the stack that he cared about more that whatever I was doing. This included cracking a fetch!

When he also landed a City of Solitude, I decided that rather than try and deal with his hate, I would just go off in my own turn. Which I did.

Win for me - finally.


Round 4 - Craig with Lands

He has no relevant interaction, and this was a terrible matchup for him. Two wins for me. Awesome deck, though; I've never seen lands played before.

Round 5 - Matthew with NO RUG

Game 1: I had to Brain Freeze myself for the win, but I got there.

Game 2: I could have gone off in response to Natural Order, but I Remanded it instead. This did not bother me, as it just cleared a counter from his hand. Unfortunately, he did not get Progenitus, but Terrastadon, destroying my lands. I nearly recovered, making another 4 land drops, but I did not get there in the end; I think he Cliqued my High Tide away.

Game 3: We had gone to time, and he can't kill me in time, which will result in a draw. If I cast Meditate, he gets an extra attack step, which will put me over the edge. The smart money is on taking the draw.

However, the winnner of the match will have a shot at top 8; with a draw, we both effectively lose. I decide to go all or nothing, and try to go off. He Missteps the High Tide, and I know I should just call it quits. Matthew has been an awesome opponent, though, so I cast the Meditate any way, handing him the game.

Loss for me, but one that I am happy with.


Round 6 - Liam with Team Itialia (RBW Stoneblade)

Game 1: Another Brain Freeze win for me.

Game 2: He keeps a hand with three Hymns. I lose.

Game 3: He has no pressure this game, and I have plenty of Remands and Flusterstorms for his disruption. I win in the late game.

Another win for me.


Final results: 3-2-1, for 23rd place out of 67 players.

[Silent Requiem]

Afterthoughts


Overview

With one exception (which came at the end of a 14+ hour day), I won at least one game in all of my matches. This is very encouraging, despite my middle-of-the-pack final placings, because it tells me that Solidarity was a contender in every single matchup that I encountered - there were no blowouts. Equally, nearly all my lost matches involved at least one very close loss; with a slightly better deck tuning or slightly tighter play those matches could easily have been turned into wins.

I was also far too reluctant to Brain Freeze myself. This is not something I normally have a problem with, but being at a major tournament made me a little more risk averse, which ironically ended up costing me games; I won every single game where I Brain Freezed myself.

Finally, I lost game one five times out of twelve. This should be my best game, because they have so many dead cards, and have no idea what I am playing, and yet I'm somehow batting just over 50%. This tells me that I'm making some very poor mulligan decisions when I face an unknown opponent. I suspect it's that I keep good "goldfish" hands, which comes back to bite me when I need disruption or counter-disruption. I need to seriously work on this, because there were several matches that I simply threw away by selecting the wrong hand in that first, critical game.


Deck choices

Opt v PtD: There was at least one game where drawing into an Opt rather than a PtD simply lost me the game, and thus the round. Of course, you see and remember those losses, but you don't see or remember the wins because you were able to Impulse and then Opt on turn 3. While I have played PtD over Opt in the past, I'm pretty sure that Opt was the right choice in this meta.

High Tide No. 4: There were several games that were lost, or nearly lost, because I just couldn't find a High Tide. This is the danger of an Opt +4 High Tide build; you have limited dig and limited targets. On the other hand, there were games where I had more than one Tide in hand, which made playing around counterspells very easy. The odds of those hands are of course lower when you have fewer Tides to draw into.

While I'm confident that my choice of Opt was correct, I'm less confident about dropping the Tide from the Wishboard. In additon to making the deck less consistent (although also more explosive), it had the side effect of reducing my access to answers; with only 3 Cunning Wishes, I often found myself having to make tough choices about what I wished for, especially in games where I had Brain Freezed myself.

Another point involving a Tide in the wishboard, and one that I had not considered, is that finding the second Tide is much, much easier if you can wish for it. A Tide in your opening hand that gets Hymned or Cliqued away on turn 3 does you no good at all, and I lost at least one game because I couldn't find High Tide no. 2.

Hunting Pack: I decided not to run Hunting Pack, and this was wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. It's not just because there was much more aggro that I was expecting. And it's not just because there were various games where I looked at my hand and thought "if I had a Hunting Pack to wish for I could just win right now".

No, the real reason is far more subtle. Every match I played went to time, or within 5 minutes of it. That meant that each day I was playing Magic for 6 hours straight, which was absolutely exhausting. In part (and I don't need to tell Solidarity players this), it's because pulling a win through disruption takes huge amounts of time and concentration. Hunting Pack, though, can randomly end a game very, very fast. Having the occasional round where I finished up in 30 minutes so I could rest and grab some food would have made a huge difference to my tournament experience.

What I'm saying is, there were no games that I could have won with Hunting Pack that I couldn't have won with Brain Freeze (albeit with far more difficulty), but there probably were games that I would have won if I had won an earlier game or two with Hunting Pack. Saturday night especially springs to mind.


Match analysis

Stoneblade: I played against two variants of this deck, and won each time. In my first game against them, I won despite a mull to five. My sideboard was +2 Flusterstorm, -1 Cryptic Command, -1 Turnabout. This deck has far less disruption than some others, and a glacially slow clock; a good matchup for us.

Zoo: Zoo has changed, and my failure to appreciate that is probably my single biggest failing in the tournament. I lost both my matches to Zoo, where I would usually stomp all over them.

What I expected was traditional Zoo with Aethersworn Cannonist on the board, so I boarded in +1 Hibernation,+1 Rebuild, -1 Cryptic Command, -1 Turnabout. What I got, however, was something very new. The printing of MM has pushed the non-blue "counters" to a critical threshold, and Zoo has become far more interactive and disruptive. I saw them board in Silence, MM (unless it was main) and Mindbreak Trap, and they also used their burn as pseudo counters. I felt far more like fighting a souped up Merfolk deck than traditional Zoo.

While this is great for Zoo, making the deck far more interactive, and giving it far more depth, it meant that I needed to fight fire with fire, rather than assume I could lazily bounce their permanents. Bringing my own MM in would have been better (a whole playset would have been nice), or possibly Flusterstorm, depending on the build (MM would be best for 3 Tide builds because it buys you time to wish for your Tide).

No RUG: Clique is a game changer. It means that we can't just wait for lethal against some decks; we have to go as soon as we can, as Clique can hit us on our own turn. I boarded in +2 Flusterstorm, -1 Cryptic, -1 Turnabout, but I think this was wrong, in hindsight.

A better way forward might have been to accept that I will have to go off in my turn, and board +1 Turnabout, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 MM, +1 BSZ, +1 Meditate, +1 Brain Freeze, -4 Reset, -1 Cryptic Command, -3 Cunning Wish. This boarding plan accepts that I will probably have to go off in my own turn when they Clique me, and possibly on turn three, but it leaves me with the tools to do so.

TNT: I've always found this matchup to be slightly favourable. +2 Flusterstorm, -1 Cryptic, -1 Turnabout. I might also have boarded some Remands out for some MM when I was on the draw.

Merfolk: This used to be my worst mainstream matchup, but I'd say that honor goes to Zoo now. Both MM and Flusterstorm are good here, and I went with the Flusterstorm for my boarding plans; if I'd been playing 3 Tides, I probably would have gone with MM.

Pox: This is a straight up war of attrition. Our card advantage is in Meditate and Flash of Insight, theirs is in Life from the Loam and recurring creatures. If you can SE their card advantage engine you can win. Otherwise, you will probably lose.

Enchantress & Lands: These matches are 90% in our favour. I didn't board at all.

[Psychovoid]

Nice reports! Thanks for sharing all this. I had one Surgical Extraction as a wish target in the sideboard, but having multiples to bring in might be a good choice for decks light on win conditions. I'll definitely test that.

Another thing I'll like to point out is that you lost both matches you had against Zoo. Do you think it was just bad luck or should we work on how to improve the matchup against fast aggro? I play 3 Mental Misstep and 4 Remands (no Force yet, haven't convinced myself to invest the money), and even with Mental Misstep Zoo still beats me regularly (I don't consider myself to be on the same skill level as you, so this might be just me). I think Repeal could help us buy time against fast aggro (replacing some quasi-useless Remands), but we don't have enough sideboard space.

[richgecko]

Thank you for these very interesting reports.
When you will do your tournament analysis, would it be possible to tell us what you sided each time ?

I noticed you played only 6 fetchlands : was it because of the aggro metagame ?

A question which may have already been answered : would divert not be better, in sideboard, than mental misstep and/or flusterstorm ? Divert vs hymn...
When you say flusterstorm is good against ANT, do you just play it before tendrils, in counterwar ?

Oh, just let me share my beginner's experience as a solidarity player, as other players might do the same mistake I did in a tournament yesterday : twincast only copies *one* brainfreeze ^^

[Silent Requiem]

Tournament analysis is up.

[Ninakoru]

Great work Silent Requiem, thank you for all that detail in your matchs and in the analysis. I am pretty sure that with a little more work on the deck and some more knowledge of the meta (that's the hardest part, as the meta has so much variety and is always changing), you can get great results. Those are some of the reasons of why Solidarity is a deck so hard to pilot.

My questions about the card selection:

- About using 19 lands. Didn't you find more often than desired, land flooded? I think that with opt, 18 could be the correct number, even 17 is possible. Is not much of a change, but every possible impreovement must be watched closely.

- About Force of Will: Did you feel comfortable using them? I mean, I am reluctant you use forces, the card disadvantage hurt pretty bad to this deck. Did you feel they are a must on this deck?

- About Mental Misstep: I think that a good choice would be 3-1 MB/SB, or even 2-2. MM is so game-breaking in legacy, and hitting T1 Vial/Lackey/Nactl/Thoughseize can give you games.

- About cryptic command, I think the 4CC make this card less useful, twincast could be a better option? did you find a fine use of cryptic command in the 2 tourneys?

BTW this is the deck I am currently running with. I am playing locally with some friends while I'm finishing buying the cards. I plan to assist the local legacy events on spain very soon.


Lands

2x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
12x Island

Engine

4x High Tide
3x Turnabout
4x Reset

Can-Draw

2x Opt
4x Brainstorm
4x Impulse
2x Flash of Insight
2x Noxious Revival
1x Oona's Grace
3x Meditate

Disruption

3x Mental Misstep
4x Remand

Misc

2x Brain Freeze
3x Cunning Wish
1x Twincast

Sideboard

1x Blue Sun´s Zenith
1x Meditate
1x Brain Freeze
1x Turnabout
3x Flusterstorm
1x Mental Misstep
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Pact of Negation
1x Rebuild
1x Hibernation
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Ravenous Trap

[Ninakoru]

Double post

[Dayyou]

I'm curious, has anyone ever tried running Disrupt?

Disrupt U
Instant

Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless its controller pays {1}.

Draw a card.

It's a counter that can be used to win stack wars and actually produces card advantage, unlike FoW.

[Taurelin]

Yes! David Gearhart did.

But wait - he is only the inventor of the deck, see the opening post of the thread for decklist and explanation.

[ScatmanX]

Yes! David Gearhart did.

But wait - he is only the inventor of the deck, see the opening post of the thread for decklist and explanation.
Yeah, but that was in 2004.
Dayyou should have read the opening post before asking this, but maybe the card should be re-checked. The meta has changed quite a lot since then.

[Dayyou]

Yeah, but that was in 2004.
Dayyou should have read the opening post before asking this, but maybe the card should be re-checked. The meta has changed quite a lot since then.

Yeah that's what I meant to ask, if anyone has ran it lately in light of the current metagame. I saw it in the opening post, but when the opening post was written, Mental Misstep and Flusterstorm both did not exist.

[wolfstorm]

Isn't Flusterstorm better at winning stack wars than disrupt?

[Dayyou]

yes flusterstorm is better at winning stack wars, but it does not provide card advantage. the only reason i brought this up is because I've been reading a lot on how the metagame changed with cards like gitaxian probe and mental misstep. It is very uncommon now to see a probe into therapy and then flashbacked to completely decimate your hand.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

From Innistrad Spoilers:

Snapcaster Mage
U1
Creature- Human Wizard
Flash
When Snapcaster Mage enters the battlefield, target instant or sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn. The flashback cost is equal to its mana cost.
2/1

So now Solidarity has instant speed, cantrip, recursion. Brain Freeze thyself!

[KZhang]

snapcaster mage seems quite exciting!

recursion plus emergency blocker!

[Zinch]

Snapcaster Mage is the first exciting card for solidarity in a couple of years!

It realy seems designed for this deck: against aggro it can be played on turn 3 to block a creature and replay a brainstorm (for example) winning time without losing a card and during the combo it's simply whatever you need in the moment you play it.

It realy seems very good in this deck. But what cards would you remove to include it? Flash of insight (the worst card in the deck in my opinion) is a good friend of snapcaster mage but maybe is not needed, so it's the obvious choice I think...

[Silent Requiem]

In our new aggro heavy environment I have been testing Snap over Turnabout. If we are running creatures of our own that might be even stronger; like Snapcaster, Snap can be used pre combo to buy time without giving up our ability to sculpt, and it also deals with hatebears.

[Dark Ritual]

Snapcaster mage is pretty sick in this deck I must admit. I'm really excited; reuse anything? Hell yes.

Dayyou, flusterstorm can generate card advantage when it counters more than one spell it generates card advantage. Disrupt is cute and everything, but it isn't really worth it unless you run a lot of them. During the combo it's 1U: Draw a card, which is quite weak and pre combo it answers...GSZ? EoT brainstorm? If it answers a natural order, be proud.

Snap and snapcaster mage go hand in hand together lol; cast this snapcaster mage, give high tide flashback, flashback high tide, cast snap on snapcaster mage, replay snapcaster mage, target meditate, win the game. Lol. This is the best card other than flusterstorm for solidarity in years IMO. I can't wait to see how good snapcaster mage is in here.

[overseer1234]

cast this snapcaster mage, give high tide flashback, flashback high tide, cast snap on snapcaster mage, replay snapcaster mage, target snap, flafhback snap, target snapcaster mage, replay snapcaster mage, target meditate, win the game. Lol. This is the best card other than flusterstorm for solidarity in years IMO. I can't wait to see how good snapcaster mage is in here.

Sorry, had to fix this a bit, as it generates more storm (and mana depending on how many high tide's have been played...). Bur I agree this really looks like it might put solidarity back on the radar.

[GGoober]

Wow, this card is pretty amazing! For Solidarity, the combo step always involves drawing 3 cards: High Tide, Untapper, Draw spell. This guy ensures that during combo'ing, if you drew him, he would ensure that you would always get a Tide/untapper/Draw spell when you need to. He functions as a Cunning Wish but is a mana lower, and allows you to play 4 Tides MD instead of 3MD 1SB in the heavy wish builds.

Being able to have some flexibility with reusing Impulses while chumpblocking early game to setup for the combo is also a huge plus. Who would have knew that the next big card for Solidarity would be a creature, considering the whole deck is instants? :P

I'm pretty excited, glad I've been Koreanizing this deck and keeping it on my radar the past couple of months, now to actually get down to practicing some games.

[leegoo]

this guy actually has me pulling resets back out of my box.
After forever, we finally get a real toy to play with.

[Silent Requiem]

Re Snapcaster Mage

I saw something on the SCD thread which was wrong, but here it is done right.

Imagine the following: It’s turn three, you have three Islands in play, and your hand consists of High Tide, Snapcaster Mage, and Intuition. You cast Intuition for Snap.

It’s now turn four. You cast High Tide > Snapcaster (for High Tide) > High Tide > Snap (on Snapcaster). You have 1 mana floating, two Islands untapped, and Snapcaster in hand (4 storm).

Now Snapcaster (for Snap) > Snap (on Snapcaster) > Snapcaster (on the last Snap) > Snap (Snapcaster). You now have 5 mana floating, two Islands untapped and Snapcaster in hand (8 storm).

Now Snapcaster (for Intuition) > Intuition (for Cunning Wish) > Cunning Wish (your sideboard Snap) > Snap (Snapcaster). You now have 1 mana floating, two Islands untapped, and a Snapcaster in hand (12 storm).

Now Snapcaster (for Snap) > Snap (Snapcaster). 3 mana floating, two Islands untapped, and Snapcaster in hand (14 storm).

Now Snapcaster (for Cunning Wish) > Cunning Wish (Brainfreeze) > Brainfreeze for 51 cards.

This is a completely draw independent win on turn four with only three cards in hand (and one turn of setup)! Of course, it is vulnerable to disruption, and it does not deal with lethal damage (although it can also be done on YOUR turn four, as it does not rely on Reset.

If you have a Reset in hand as well, you can also pull this off on turn three, as you need the extra mana generation to cast the Intuition on the same turn.

A niche play? Sure, but this is just off the top of my head. What more might be possible? With Intuition, Snapcaster is much like making a Doomsday stack.

[Spigore]

I really don't think playing a combo which requires three cards in hand (Tide, Intuition, Mage) to even start off, is an improvement to the deck.

I can see Snapcaster Mage being played as a very effective recursion of countermagic (FStorm/MM) or cantrip (Impulse in particular).
Chumpblocking a beating Goyf/Batterskull and being forced to flashback something on turn 3-5 is most probably the worst play of this Mage, though who doesn't like an Impulse/Brainstorm effect? :wink:

I'm developing a new list with Snapcaster Mage, though I'm very doubtful to go for maindeck Snap. Recently I'm not even playing Snap in SB since Dismember performs so much better.
If Snap would be added MD, Repeal seems like an obvious choice to go. Removing Repeal from MD makes you way way way too dependant on Wipe Away in the SB.

Putting all this Snapmagic maindeck leaves you open for opposing countermagic. Question is, can Snapmagic outlast opposing countermagic? oO

Choices to make...mhmm

[Zinch]

I've added 3 snapcaster mage and 3 intuition but it slows too much the deck.

Do you think it's a good idea to remove some cunning wishes? (I've removed the brain freezes and flashes of insight so the wishes are the only win conditin on the MD)

[Silent Requiem]

I really don't think playing a combo which requires three cards in hand (Tide, Intuition, Mage) to even start off, is an improvement to the deck.


I'm sorry, but I'm really having a hard time understanding this comment. It's one thing to say that you don't like Snapcaster Mage - that's fair enough - but to say that you don't like it because it's a three card combo is just silly.

Because we already play a deck that requires a three card combo.

We need High Tide, Untap, and Meditate. Sure, you can make it work with only two of those and an additional draw spell which finds you the missing piece, but unless you are going off with plenty of lands in play, those three elements are non-negotiable.

You need High Tide to produce mana. You need one or more untap spells to refresh your mana. And you need a card advantage engine so that you can keep finding and casting spells while drawing dead cards and casting more untap spells.

The difference is, our current three card combo can fizzle. You can Meditate into 3 Islands and Force of Will. This three card combo is guarenteed in the absence of disruption.

Snapcaster may well turn out to be disappointing for all sorts of reasons, but assembling the above combo is no harder than assembling the combo we already use.

Edit @ Zinch: I'm going to wait until all of Innistrad is spoiled before I start any serious testing; I'm hoping that Snapcaster is not the only toy we'll be getting.

[GGoober]

Re Snapcaster Mage

I saw something on the SCD thread which was wrong, but here it is done right.

Imagine the following: It’s turn three, you have three Islands in play, and your hand consists of High Tide, Snapcaster Mage, and Intuition. You cast Intuition for Snap.

It’s now turn four. You cast High Tide > Snapcaster (for High Tide) > High Tide > Snap (on Snapcaster). You have 1 mana floating, two Islands untapped, and Snapcaster in hand (4 storm).

Now Snapcaster (for Snap) > Snap (on Snapcaster) > Snapcaster (on the last Snap) > Snap (Snapcaster). You now have 5 mana floating, two Islands untapped and Snapcaster in hand (8 storm).

Now Snapcaster (for Intuition) > Intuition (for Cunning Wish) > Cunning Wish (your sideboard Snap) > Snap (Snapcaster). You now have 1 mana floating, two Islands untapped, and a Snapcaster in hand (12 storm).

Now Snapcaster (for Snap) > Snap (Snapcaster). 3 mana floating, two Islands untapped, and Snapcaster in hand (14 storm).

Now Snapcaster (for Cunning Wish) > Cunning Wish (Brainfreeze) > Brainfreeze for 51 cards.

This is a completely draw independent win on turn four with only three cards in hand (and one turn of setup)! Of course, it is vulnerable to disruption, and it does not deal with lethal damage (although it can also be done on YOUR turn four, as it does not rely on Reset.

If you have a Reset in hand as well, you can also pull this off on turn three, as you need the extra mana generation to cast the Intuition on the same turn.

A niche play? Sure, but this is just off the top of my head. What more might be possible? With Intuition, Snapcaster is much like making a Doomsday stack.

Very interesting playout! I'm more amazed by the potential of the deck to play Snaps than anything else, since a 'dead' snap against an opponent is no longer dead when playing with a higher density of Snapcasters (it's basically a storm-generating untapper). Playing enough copies of Snaps/Snapcasters will finally make Intuition a worthy demonic tutor in the deck, since any copies in the yard is only to be further abused with Snapcaster. It's really amazing how Intuition sets up the combo by finding Snap/Snapcaster/High Tide etc, but all the cards in the yard only further sets up for an eventual win if Snapcaster resolves. Snap is also REALLY good in the meta right now. And if the meta does shift away from aggro to control/combo/discard, Flusterstorm is all you need to win the game against those matchups (except against Extirpate).

The only risk I see is opponents fighting the deck with Extirpates if it ever gets powerful enough, now that REALLY hurts a build with Snapcasters (because playing against Extirpate with just Extirpate on high-tide is difficult enough). But that shouldn't be the reason why one shouldn't play/test with Snapcasters, because not all decks will play Extirpate.

[Zinch]

I've tried intuition and I think it's too much expensive for this deck (at least until we remove the wishes, wich I don't think it's a good idea...)

The deck I'm testing now is this:


4 High Tide
4 Reset
1 Snap
2 Turnabout
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Opt
4 Brainstorm
2 Peer Through Depths
4 Impulse
4 Force of Will
4 Remand

10 Fetchlands
9 Islands


The mages help a lot with the consistency. Sometimes they can act as a demonic tutor and chump block at the same time!

Anyone has done any testing?

Another idea. Now that counterbalance is almost dead, have anyone tried one tropical (on the MD) and Autumn's Veil in the SB? With so many MM and counterspells around it seems like a good idea to me

[Cone]

Why only 1 Snap? Flashback will excile it. So you can cast it only twice.

[Zinch]

I wasn't sure to remove all the turnabouts, but maybe is the way to go... Did anyone that removed the turnabouts had any problem against storm combo or PW.deck when opponent don't have any creature?
With only 3 creatures of my own I see it a little unreliable against decks without creatures

[Spigore]

Hey SR,

Snapcaster Mage is a very good card. Don't get me wrong. But to put it into Solidarity, requires the deck to make slots open for;

- SCMage
- Snap
- Intuition

I'm running a 9-card counterpackage consistiong of FoW/MM and Remand. Imho, this shouldn't be touched at all.
For now, I have cut 2 Turnabout, 2 Opt, 1 Wish, 1 Brain Freeze, 1 Meditate, 2 Visions of Beyond (!). Added 3 Mage, 3 Snap, 3 Intuition
It's hard to choose cards to leave the MB since, when running the new combopackage, you're still in the need of cantripping and drawing.

Testing gave me an awkward feeling; very hard to get the engine working, since a shitload of times, SCM didn't find any good targets to hit with his insane ability. At a point during your combo, you really need to hit a cantrip/draw to keep going. It would be better to play the second Brain Freeze again and cast it on yourself in your opponent's eot-step; get some cards in the graveyard before comboing off.

I do have to add that at the fewer times I had access to Intuition and SCM, it's all over. The combo is solid, protects itself very well (counterwars are more easy now; SCM on Fstorm -.-) and ups the stormcount like crazy.

At the moment we're not really playing a 3-card combo the way I see it. Basically you need a Tide, Reset/Turnabout, plus any draw/cantrip in the form of a VoB/Meditate/FoI/BSZ/Brainstorm. It's less reliable on the particular cards.

I really need to test a lot more, since the optimal list is far from what I'm playing at the moment. The new card has a lot of potential but really requires the deck to step away from the cards which it has been playing over the years.

Interested in SCM: yes
Convinced by SCM: no

[lebarion]

I'm running a 9-card counterpackage consistiong of FoW/MM and Remand. Imho, this shouldn't be touched at all.

I believe you should consider cutting the Remands. Snapcaster Mage allows you to replay counterspells, High Tides and Brain Freezes from your grave. I believe Snapcaster Mage does most of Remand's tricks, and much more.
I know that when your opponent plays their Counterbalance/Gaddock/Cannonist on turn two and you have SCM in hand you'll damn him, but Counterbalance is off the radar and you have Snap MD to handle the dudes.

[Seraphus]

I did try not to post, i control myself to the out most impulse of tipping any letter in this thread, but i can't hold on any more...


Enlightened ones, people with exceptional power to play this deck (yes all of you who post in this Thread - with some exception): Shut up, and do yourself a favor, sit your ass down with good magic players play some games (some, about 100 per archetype, real games) and get a sheet and wright done every interaction that the mage alows + the mana it cost + the conditions it requiers + the cards your deck need to have...

So enlightened ones when you reach the damn conclusion that the things you have to cut are either your hands (since they can't handle the deck because you prefer to deck build than to play 5000 games to understand things you clearly don't) or you can cut high tide, meditate, flash of insight, impulse, reset, turnabout etc you'll go play mono red goblins...


To others that lazy didn't want to use bounces on creatures (but later want to add bounces): you may ignore my comments and etc but you'll keep getting the same conclusions i did, if your way of solidarity is different of mine than your way is not getting victory, because that my way... if you ever would desire to work on the list for competitive tournaments (GPT, GP Amsterdam etc) will extended my invitation to you and you can pm me, since of course i m not going to discuss important things in an open forum...

last comment: Spigore although i don't agree with some maindeck options you have (misstep, etc) at least you tested the card and not assume that it's brilliant...
After all of you realize that there's not even enough time to understand that the creature is good or not (my guess is that it isn't brilliant), because i hope that you'll really are going to test and not just post something about your idea of if the creature work or not, solidarity players are going to gather around playing the deck instead of building something in the deck...

[Spigore]

Sera, I don't ever see you on MSN anymore. What happened? T_T :cry:
Let's talk there?

[Seraphus]

LOL sorry dude with facebook and dwo i almost never turn msn on!

[Dark Ritual]

I believe that this archetype is in need of an overhaul once snapcaster mage is available. I've been debating going wishless, instead using a list with intuition's over cunning wish, some snap's, obviously SCM, and the usual package of reset, turnabout, high tide, etc. etc. Testing will tell whether or not SCM is the nuts but I believe it is the nuts; at worst, SCM cantrips with an opt in the GY on turn 3 and chump blocks to buy us more time. At best, he wins us a critical counterwar by flashbacking flusterstorm, remand, misstep, or if we have an overabundance of mana FoW itself, he flashbacks a critical spell to continue the chain such as reset, meditate, or high tide itself to get to critical mana, or he flashbacks a card we got pitched off of intuition to continue the chain.

The upside to not having cunning wish in this deck is we get to run a full 15 card SB. We can then tackle multiple MUs better if we dedicate X slots to aggro, Y to combo, and Z to control so we have an easier time games 2 and 3 if game 1 went ill.

The number of interactions SCM has with this deck is obscene.

I'm considering running gifts ungiven with SCM as well. The standard gifts pile would be SCM, noxious revival, and 2 of your choice. Sure Gifts is 4 mana but now we can effectively utilize it with 2 recursion cards in SCM and noxious and 2 other sweet cards like stroke and brain freeze, meditate and reset, etc. etc. And its about time gifts ungiven got some love in legacy IMHO since the card can be busted as hell.

[ZeroShift]

Hi guys, particularly Silent Requium, you may remeber me from UK Nationals... with some choice zombie tokens xD... forgive me if I was a little giddy, I'm quite new to legacy... soooo, sorry about that, the deck seems awesome (Solidarity), alot of fun to play against for a control player (we had an awesome counter-war :P....

[mtgaddict]

Game one they probably won't stop until they have emrakul so you should be safe. Otherwise you can always just go off on their EOT if they break the chain early so that shouldn't be a huge problem. Sure getting them with a glimpse trigger is cool but trap or extraction can deal with emrakul and letting them die on their draw step works just as well.
I've just played versus Elves and the G1 is easier. :smile: On the other hand, I don't see how to win G2 or G3. When I'm on the draw, I'm unable to stop them. Moreover, if I can drop 3 islands, they slow play in order to minimize storm count.


For FoI I always put business on top and land on bottom but unless you are stacking the majority of your deck it doesn't matter too much. Generally I put meditate on top and make the 4 below some combination of tides, untaps and cantrips. This is a good thing to do because you can stack it so that if meditate resolves you have the ability to play through the rest of the cantrips below it. Still, if its not the majority of your deck its not a huge deal but its good practice.
Thanks. I did it. :wink:



PtD or Opt?
Green splash or mono blue?
4 Tides main or 1 in the Wishboard?
I'm not an experimented player but this is my point of view :
- PtD is better when you are in combo but I'm always happy to play small Opt in the first turns in order to assemble the combo.
- Green splash is awesome but you must make a 4 wish build.
- 1 tide in SB is better for goldfishing but in real life I can't spend my third turn to wish for tide.



I was also far too reluctant to Brain Freeze myself. This is not something I normally have a problem with, but being at a major tournament made me a little more risk averse, which ironically ended up costing me games; I won every single game where I Brain Freezed myself.
+1

@Silent Requiem : Thanks a lot for your report !

Snapcaster Mage build seems really exciting (especially the SCM stack :wink:) because we could go off :
- with only 3 lands easier
- on your own turn
- without draw dependent

But we must relativize our craze because we add 2 main weak points to Solidarity :
- playing creature : more decks will be able to deal with our engine
- using graveyard : we need to play around SE and friends on G2 and G3

Do you think that an SCM build should be more control than combo ?

[Zinch]

I've been testing the deck I posted on the last page changing the 2 turnabouts for 2 snaps more and I have to say the deck is a lot more stable. I've played about 30 games (preboard) against 4 of the most popular decks (Zoo, Blade control, NO RUG and merfolks)

I was afraid of frizzling by a sword/bolt in response to a snap, but that only happened to me in one game and only because it was my only untapper.
The interaction between snapcaster mage and snap is incredible. I comboed with 3 lands twice against zoo on the draw (in about 8 games). This was a lot harder before, but now flashbacking a high tide with the mage is one of the options we have.

One thing I was considering (in relation with mtgaddict said) is if it's posible to turn the deck in a more controlish deck after sideboarding against blade control for example (a very hard MU). Snapcaster mage is what allows this because with him we can combo with fewer cards.

[Psychovoid]

Talking about the SoneBlade matchup... you guys have any play/sideboarding tips? I find it close to impossible to combo through at least three counterspells, Clique disruption, Sword of Feast and Famine discard effects, and a clock that kills by turn 6. It's ridiculous. StoneBlade runs a 9-card kill package and almost 30 counterspells; it seems hopeless.

[GGoober]

I was afraid of frizzling by a sword/bolt in response to a snap, but that only happened to me in one game and only because it was my only untapper.

The StP player should be MORE afraid than you because you dominate stack wars :) Imagine if you had a Flusterstorm in hand, or simply yet another Snap/Snapcaster or a Impulse/brainstorm to dig deeper, then Snap/Snapcaster the Snapcaster/Snap in response, let StP resolve and fizzle, and go off again :D

The only thing that Snapcaster/Snap build will be affected is Extirpate :/ It just blows my mind how hard it is to play against Extirpate.

[Zinch]

The StP player should be MORE afraid than you because you dominate stack wars :) Imagine if you had a Flusterstorm in hand, or simply yet another Snap/Snapcaster or a Impulse/brainstorm to dig deeper, then Snap/Snapcaster the Snapcaster/Snap in response, let StP resolve and fizzle, and go off again :D

The only thing that Snapcaster/Snap build will be affected is Extirpate :/ It just blows my mind how hard it is to play against Extirpate.

That is what happened in almost every situation :wink:

On the B & R discusion thread people is assuming MM is getting the axe. If that is the case and with the release of snapcaster mage I think solidarity could make a comeback as an important factor in the metagame...

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah I'll just be replacing the missteps in my build with either more cantrips and stuff or flusterstorm's or good ole force of will.

Against stuff like stoneblade right now with misstep in the format the way to do it is to go off at the last possible second as per usual and make a giant stack ending in cunning wish for mindbreak trap, exiling all their spells and winning shortly thereafter. Although this can be hard to do if you don't have tons of mana via at least one high tide resolving. But this is perfectly doable with the right hand you just need some remands or lots of must counter spells for the opponent that if they resolve you win.

Solidarity can definitely make a comeback though post snapcaster mage. That card is sweet. Unsure of how to utilize it best though; you can either go for an explosive build that can win on turn 3 potentially or with a more traditional approach. Not sure what's right ATM since the meta will have to adjust to MM getting the axe, which I'm 99 percent sure that it will.

[Vacrix]

Snapcaster Mage looks amazing.

I haven't quite finalized a list yet but Solidarity that forgoes Turnabouts for Snap/Snapcaster engine makes it even easier to win without Reset. Honestly Turnabout is overcosted and I think we can get around the spot removal problem with either Mental Missteps.. or this perhaps:

Mask of the Mimic U
Instant
As an additional cost to cast Mask of the Mimic, sacrifice a creature.
Search your library for a card with the same name as target nontoken creature and put that card onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.

I'm thinking that Cloud of Faeries might also want to join this crew, if there is space. Either way, I think that some combination of Cloud of Faeries and Snap should replace Turnabout.


Further.. a card that I really don't think gets enough attention is Reins of Power. Its randomly gotten me kills before but now coupled with Snapcaster Mage, Rein's of Power for turns in a row could get pretty ridiculous. We might even be able to race the opponent with his own creatures provided we can do some tricks with Snap, Snapcaster Mage and possibly Mask of the Mimic.

[PunkRocker1134]

Having just goldfished 15 or so hands with the snapcaster/snap engine, it gives us a great deal more explosion. Turn three kills are definitely doable, much more so than before. I think this engine also gives us a reason to run Flusterstorm main.

For reference, the list I'm goldfishing (its very rough):

6 blue fetches
13 Island

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Snap
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Intuition
2 Brainfreeze

4 Brainstorm
4 Impluse
4 Remand
4 Mediate
2 Flash of insight
1 Blue Sun's Zenight
3 Flusterstorm

[Spigore]

Talking about the SoneBlade matchup... you guys have any play/sideboarding tips? I find it close to impossible to combo through at least three counterspells, Clique disruption, Sword of Feast and Famine discard effects, and a clock that kills by turn 6. It's ridiculous. StoneBlade runs a 9-card kill package and almost 30 counterspells; it seems hopeless.

Repeal the Germ token, Dismember the Germ token, Rebuild is pro here, Remanding Jace/Clique.

Side in your counterspells, Flusterstorm and Mindbreak Trap shine here. MM is your weakest link here, it only hits enemy MM's!

I don't have a big struggle with this matchup. They start up slow and when it comes to counterwar, make sure they open up the Trap. Flusterstorm copies can hit other spells. Move your Reset/Tide from the stack with Remand.
Even after, counterwars build the storm count. :cool:

Ofcourse you have the occasional opponent who is drawing the nuts, Clique's ability can be a real pain.

[Vacrix]

Having just goldfished 15 or so hands with the snapcaster/snap engine, it gives us a great deal more explosion. Turn three kills are definitely doable, much more so than before. I think this engine also gives us a reason to run Flusterstorm main.

For reference, the list I'm goldfishing (its very rough):

6 blue fetches
13 Island

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Snap
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Intuition
2 Brainfreeze

4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Remand
4 Meditate
2 Flash of insight
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Flusterstorm
My thoughts

-2 Flash of Insight
+2 Twincast

UU for a 2nd spell of anything is a pretty good deal if you really think about it. Twincast can be Snapcasted unlike Flash of Insight. I can't tell you how many times a Twincasted Meditate has allowed me to pull myself out of a counterwar. Then again, Twincasted Snap seems like a good way of beating the random removal spell while it also copies Reset in the absense of Turnabout, and obviously it copies High Tide.

I question the only running four 1cc cantrips and 19 land. How is hitting land drops working out for you?

[wolfstorm]

Snapcaster Mage looks amazing.

I haven't quite finalized a list yet but Solidarity that forgoes Turnabouts for Snap/Snapcaster engine makes it even easier to win without Reset. Honestly Turnabout is overcosted and I think we can get around the spot removal problem with either Mental Missteps.. or this perhaps:

Mask of the Mimic U
Instant
As an additional cost to cast Mask of the Mimic, sacrifice a creature.
Search your library for a card with the same name as target nontoken creature and put that card onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.

I'm thinking that Cloud of Faeries might also want to join this crew, if there is space. Either way, I think that some combination of Cloud of Faeries and Snap should replace Turnabout.


Further.. a card that I really don't think gets enough attention is Reins of Power. Its randomly gotten me kills before but now coupled with Snapcaster Mage, Rein's of Power for turns in a row could get pretty ridiculous. We might even be able to race the opponent with his own creatures provided we can do some tricks with Snap, Snapcaster Mage and possibly Mask of the Mimic.

Cloud of Faeries doesn't have flash :/

[Seraphus]

Cloud of Faeries doesn't have flash :/

where's the "Like" button??

[PunkRocker1134]

I've been having a little bit of an issue hitting land drops. I'm not sure what to cut for more lands though.

[Seraphus]

I've been having a little bit of an issue hitting land drops. I'm not sure what to cut for more lands though.

so now you get why opt is necessary in this deck?

[PunkRocker1134]

After some more goldfishing, I've found Flash of Insight to be kinda useless in the snapcaster lists. To make room for opt, I'm thinking something like:

-2 Flash
-1 Flusterstorm
+3 Opt

I should be doing some actual testing next week, so I'll report back then.

[Seraphus]

After some more goldfishing, I've found Flash of Insight to be kinda useless in the snapcaster lists. To make room for opt, I'm thinking something like:

-2 Flash
-1 Flusterstorm
+3 Opt

I should be doing some actual testing next week, so I'll report back then.

Believe me, i am almost sure, the deck doesn't need the intuitions...

[GradStudentGuy]

With intuition being added into some of the proposed builds along with snap mage the deck seems more graveyard centric. This begs to ask why not include Visions of Beyond as a cantrip. Before combo its not as good as peek. However, once you have snap mage and the intuition engine going mid combo you have a good chance of getting an
Ancestral Recall flash back.

[Kich867]

With intuition being added into some of the proposed builds along with snap mage the deck seems more graveyard centric. This begs to ask why not include Visions of Beyond as a cantrip. Before combo its not as good as peek. However, once you have snap mage and the intuition engine going mid combo you have a good chance of getting an
Ancestral Recall flash back.

I believe its been tested and found to not be that great / a win-more (a card thats only really good if you're already winning)

[Seraphus]

I once again a mention this (but now due to the fact that we'll have the mage): is it Cunning Wish relevant?

[lebarion]

I once again a mention this (but now due to the fact that we'll have the mage): is it Cunning Wish relevant?

I intend to test a list with Snap maindeck and no Cunning Wish. I believe with counters and creature bounce preboard we are able to deal with most hate G1, and have a focused sideboard for our bad matches.

[Seraphus]

I intend to test a list with Snap maindeck and no Cunning Wish. I believe with counters and creature bounce preboard we are able to deal with most hate G1, and have a focused sideboard for our bad matches.

Try this: reduce cunning wish to 2 (common lists use 3) because you'll need to deal with emrakulls and friends (acessing zenith has no price). Main deck don't use Snap, yes it has some chemistry with Snapcaster, you'll need to have a second high tide to it actually produce any extra mana. Think about, the mage adds enough consistence to the deck its better to add things that allow us to be faster against decks that we need to be faster (those decks normally use creatures - bonus for snap that will not only be exclusively dependent on mage - yes many decks use creatures nowadays but i prefer consistence rather that an untapper).

[Kich867]

I'm looking to build Solidarity within the near future, but one thing I'd like to talk about before the purchase is the use of Force of Will. Some decks use it, but some just run flusterstorm to win stack wars, remand for tech / tempo, and misstep to deal with missteps..

Is Force of Wills card disadvantage too brutal? It's not really an issue with cost as a playset is accessible for me, I'm just wondering if it's necessary for the deck. A free counter is always a free counter but I'm leery of hurting myself from losing my hand for it..

This topic was brought up briefly many pages ago, but the conversation went sort of a "preference" route, but I'd like a more definitive answer as to whether it's either useful or unnecessary. Would a deck perform better with it over one that did not, or is Flusterstorm that good at winning stack wars that it's not that necessary.

[Seraphus]

I'm looking to build Solidarity within the near future, but one thing I'd like to talk about before the purchase is the use of Force of Will. Some decks use it, but some just run flusterstorm to win stack wars, remand for tech / tempo, and misstep to deal with missteps..

Is Force of Wills card disadvantage too brutal? It's not really an issue with cost as a playset is accessible for me, I'm just wondering if it's necessary for the deck. A free counter is always a free counter but I'm leery of hurting myself from losing my hand for it..

This topic was brought up briefly many pages ago, but the conversation went sort of a "preference" route, but I'd like a more definitive answer as to whether it's either useful or unnecessary. Would a deck perform better with it over one that did not, or is Flusterstorm that good at winning stack wars that it's not that necessary.

Look at this question this way: Flusterstorm need cheap cards to storm (what's more cheap than free?);
With Vendilion on the way (almost every blue deck has it) you need to stop clocks and remand isn't enough...

Force is vital either to balance your game or to combo out...

[Dark Ritual]

I personally run a 2/2 split of FoW between the MD and SB right now. My counterpackage MD ATM is 2 FoW, 3 Misstep, and 4 Remand. I have 1 flusterstorm, 1 misstep, and 2 FoW in the SB along with a mindbreak trap for counterwars ending in cunning wish. Against decks you don't have counterwars with I usually board out some remand's for the misstep if they play targeted discard and force if they play trouble 2+ drops that you don't want to resolve like canonist, tidehollow sculler, etc. etc. It's worked out pretty well so far. I like remand for counterwars and against decks we have lots of time against I can just usually set up a board state where I will win any counterwar regardless of their hand based on being able to wish for flusterstorm/MBT to just blow them out.

I expect misstep will get banned so I'll have to revamp the counterpackage once again but that's fine by me; I'll probably just start running some amount of flusterstorm MD based on how sick it is in counterwars and even against just random discard and hymn it shines as a way to counter them for sure usually.

It depends on your hand on whether FoW's card disadvantage is brutal or not. If you don't have that many cards, it's brutal. If you have excess combo pieces it's a pretty easy call to FoW a certain spell.

The good part about snap on snapcaster mage isn't that it gains mana. It's that you can go EoT intuition for 3 snap's with a snapcaster mage in hand along with brain freeze and remand and you then kill them via going high tide, snapcaster mage, snap, snapcaster mage, snap, snapcaster mage, snap, snapcaster, high tide, brain freeze, remand it, brain freeze again and kill them due to them getting decked in their draw step. You don't even need reset, turnabout, or meditate for this lethal combination.

[Zinch]

I personally run a 2/2 split of FoW between the MD and SB right now. My counterpackage MD ATM is 2 FoW, 3 Misstep, and 4 Remand. I have 1 flusterstorm, 1 misstep, and 2 FoW in the SB along with a mindbreak trap for counterwars ending in cunning wish. Against decks you don't have counterwars with I usually board out some remand's for the misstep if they play targeted discard and force if they play trouble 2+ drops that you don't want to resolve like canonist, tidehollow sculler, etc. etc. It's worked out pretty well so far. I like remand for counterwars and against decks we have lots of time against I can just usually set up a board state where I will win any counterwar regardless of their hand based on being able to wish for flusterstorm/MBT to just blow them out.

I expect misstep will get banned so I'll have to revamp the counterpackage once again but that's fine by me; I'll probably just start running some amount of flusterstorm MD based on how sick it is in counterwars and even against just random discard and hymn it shines as a way to counter them for sure usually.

It depends on your hand on whether FoW's card disadvantage is brutal or not. If you don't have that many cards, it's brutal. If you have excess combo pieces it's a pretty easy call to FoW a certain spell.

The good part about snap on snapcaster mage isn't that it gains mana. It's that you can go EoT intuition for 3 snap's with a snapcaster mage in hand along with brain freeze and remand and you then kill them via going high tide, snapcaster mage, snap, snapcaster mage, snap, snapcaster mage, snap, snapcaster, high tide, brain freeze, remand it, brain freeze again and kill them due to them getting decked in their draw step. You don't even need reset, turnabout, or meditate for this lethal combination.

I play with the "classic" 4 FoW and 4 Remands.
I believe that for the first game, the versatility of FoW is unmatched by any other counter.

In the playtest I've done, Snapcaster and Snap have been golden. You don't need intuition for them to be good (I don't ever play intuition). Snapcaster Mage is just brutal if you have resolved a high tide, it's just the card you need in every moment and Snap is an untapper for 2 mana, wich is very important in a lot of situations and allows you to replay Snapcaster Mage for another card.

[leegoo]

Thoughts:

(I'm still playing a wishless list, albeit pretty modified with the release of the Mage.)

- The Value of a card like Intuition has changed. Before ScM, intuition was a bit of liability (in thinning your deck of very likely a card you'd like to draw multiples of over the course of the turn) however now it is considerably stronger, even if it's just to use it similarly to the way *some* used Cunning Wish. (Except you don't have to cut down from the max # maindeck.) As well, you can also run single copies of the "kill spells" (BSZ & BF) and still "tutor" for them (searching up BSZ / ScM / ScM - or Snap if you already have ScM's in play)

- As above, both Pact of Negation and Mental Misstep should be re-evaluated, as should Force of Will. The deck (and player piloting it) should decide if they would prefer a more controlling build (in which FoW retains it's power level) or a more "combo" build (in which case all you want to do is protect your "going off" turn, where PoN becomes much stronger) - keep in mind MM and PoN can both be flashed back for "free"

- Both Remand and Flash of Insight should be under heavy scrutiny in lists that run (and especially ones that max out on) ScM. Similarly, Turnabout is almost certainly unnecessary in lists that run multiple Snaps, and ScM+Reset is basically turnabout in itself.

- Visions of Beyond is still trash.

I'm not 100% sure on Wish lists. Personally I'm more interested in having a full sideboard to pull from.

Everyone say a little prayer for MM to get banned.

[lebarion]

Try this: reduce cunning wish to 2 (common lists use 3) because you'll need to deal with emrakulls and friends (acessing zenith has no price). Main deck don't use Snap, yes it has some chemistry with Snapcaster, you'll need to have a second high tide to it actually produce any extra mana. Think about, the mage adds enough consistence to the deck its better to add things that allow us to be faster against decks that we need to be faster (those decks normally use creatures - bonus for snap that will not only be exclusively dependent on mage - yes many decks use creatures nowadays but i prefer consistence rather that an untapper).

I'm not very concerned about Emrakul, as Hive Mind and other Show n'Tell decks are not that common in my metagame. If my opponent has no targets to Snap it usually means I'm not under pressure, and I'm fine if my own ScM is the only target. Still, I see your point on improving consistence and being faster. I guess a lot of test and time will tell if Snap deserves its place MD.
My main current concerns playing this deck are the same of most people here: finding out if FoW is worth it or not and how to achieve land drops consistently while sculpting the combo. The answer to the firts question is still yes for me; but I'm still not sure about the second.

[GGoober]

This thread is not excited with the banning of Misstep?

Here let me help you guys out:

WOOOHOOOO!!!!

Anyway, I've shelfed my Solidarity cards in my binders during this period waiting for MM to be unbanned. I am definitely going to pick up this archetype more and leego's points are pretty spot on (at least from what I've gathered and theorized, but fuck theory, need to get down to real testing!). What's cool is with MM banned, Spiral Tide is picking up, so we can combo off on their High Tide and win!

[Silent Requiem]

I never really found MM to be that much of a problem, honestly, as we've had to fight through counters and other instants from the outset. MM at least helped me as much as it hurt me.

With MM gone we will face fewer counters on our High Tide, but the format will also speed up again, putting us under pressure to assemble the combo before we go under. And that's really what we are missing, a Merchant Scroll equivalent that ensures we can assemble the combo by turn 3 - Lim Dul's Vault is the closest we've got.

[Zinch]

Mora than the speed of the format (zoo was a very used deck in the MM era and is the same as now) what "scares" me a little is the (posible) Counter Top come back.

At the end, MM was a counter just like spell snare (it counter the tides, so was a little worse but not that worse) and Solidarity is the king of the stack, but Counter Top is a lot harder to beat and you can't remand the tide and try the next turn, you have to solve the Counter Balance issue first.

I hope that the speed on the format that everybody is assuming is too much for the CB decks...

[leegoo]

Against old CB decks boarding into 3-4 Brain Freezes and mini-milling always worked for me in the past.

[lebarion]

Mora than the speed of the format (zoo was a very used deck in the MM era and is the same as now) what "scares" me a little is the (posible) Counter Top come back.

Merfolk will keep CB in check. Not that the Merfolk matchup is a cakewalk, but I believe it to be better than the CB match.

I completely agree with Silent Requiem about assembling the combo. The problem is that it is hard to figure something other than Frantic Search being unbanned that would help this deck without favoring other blue decks, too.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I never really found MM to be that much of a problem, honestly, as we've had to fight through counters and other instants from the outset. MM at least helped me as much as it hurt me.

With MM gone we will face fewer counters on our High Tide, but the format will also speed up again, putting us under pressure to assemble the combo before we go under. And that's really what we are missing, a Merchant Scroll equivalent that ensures we can assemble the combo by turn 3 - Lim Dul's Vault is the closest we've got.

I have only played Spiral Tide and I know Solidarity runs Instant only, but could not this deck just play 3 Merchant Scroll? It is a dead card in the combo turn, but you use it on turn 2 to assemble the combo or protection. For such a powerful effect on turn 2, could it outweigh the liability?

[leegoo]

the problem is, when you start justifying non-instant non-land cards in the deck... it gets hard not to justify a card like Time Spiral that basically just wins as soon as it resolves. And then we're talking about a different deck entirely, much the same way MUD and affinity are both artifact decks, but you couldn't just shove wurmcoil engine into affinity.

-edit- albeit I will say that a couple of years ago somebody tried to run Merchant Scroll + Quicken. I don't think it worked out all that well, but you may want to scour some pages back and see what become of it.

[Silent Requiem]

If (and this is a big "if") we could consistently combo out on turn three then we could probably support some non-instants.

Initially, the deck ran all instants simply because Reset could only be played on the opponent's turn, and Reset was, along with High Tide, our strongest mana generator.

However, as the format sped up, we also needed to delay our opponents long enough for us to play four lands, which lead to the inclusion of cards like Remand and Cryptic, as well as using our dig spells to find FoW. This meant that we never knew what we could afford to play until we saw what our opponent was doing; were we digging for High Tide, or digging for Fow?

This created a second reason for running only instants, a reason actually stronger than the convenience of playing well with Reset: we were forced to play control in the early game.

If (and again, this is a big "if") we can build the deck in such a way that it reliably combos out on three lands then we can, to a large extent, drop the control role we have been forced into. Doing so would probably allow us to support a few sorceries, with Merchant Scroll being the obvious one.

Incidentally, being able to go off on three lands would benefit the deck in other ways, primarily by reducing the need to find a fourth land. We could (for example) try running Quicken/Peek/Visions over Opt because the early game digging power would be less critical. We could try Lim Dul's Vault, because the card disadvantage hurts us less. And so on.

We would also want to be able (if possible) to go off on our own turn when on the play, too. Most people are tapped out on turn 2, so if we go off on our own turn 3 then we face far less disruption. And no need for a pesky BSZ.

Can Snapcaster + Snap help us do all this? I don't know, but it's going to be interesting to find out.

[tsabo_tavoc]

the problem is, when you start justifying non-instant non-land cards in the deck... it gets hard not to justify a card like Time Spiral that basically just wins as soon as it resolves. And then we're talking about a different deck entirely, much the same way MUD and affinity are both artifact decks, but you couldn't just shove wurmcoil engine into affinity.

-edit- albeit I will say that a couple of years ago somebody tried to run Merchant Scroll + Quicken. I don't think it worked out all that well, but you may want to scour some pages back and see what become of it.

Well, do you mean Time Spiral > Reset? Merchant Scroll serves better along with Time Spiral, but it does not mean it can't improve Reset lists. Wurmcoil Engine, on the other hand, is certainly worse than Tezzeret in Affinity, or Master of Etherium if you want it to be compared with a creature.

@Silent Requiem: AFAIK, Spiral Tide combos out on turn 4. Although it has a higher percentage of turn 3 combo than Solidarity, both are negligible (versions with Retraced Image being an exception). On paper, there is no conflict between countering their turn 2 play by Remand and Scroll for a card on turn 3 to prepare for the turn 4 combo. There are Cunning Wish and Intuition as turn 3 tutors, but their effects are arguably worse than Scroll's even if they cost 1U.

Snapcaster Mage is the whole reason for my interest in Solidarity. Do you have a draft list that you want to share?

[Silent Requiem]

On paper, there is no conflict between countering their turn 2 play by Remand and Scroll for a card on turn 3 to prepare for the turn 4 combo.

Ah, but that's the point! You don't know whether you should Remand on turn 2 and Scroll on turn 3, or Scroll on turn 2 and Remand on turn 3. Casting Merchant Scroll means (short of FoW) letting them do whatever the hell they want that turn. That's a pretty risky play.

Edit: While casting Merchant Scroll on turn 3 means you have a mana open for dig or Flusterstorm, it also means you have given up the option of going off on turn 3.

2nd Edit: I'm actually quite curious as to how Lim Dul's Vault would work, as cracking a T2 fetch (when they are tapped out, so no wasteland) for an Underground Sea into Vault looks like it would set you up pretty well for a turn 3 win, either on your own turn or on their next turn (if you needed to use Reset).

[GoldenCid]

I'm not totaly convinced of Snapcaster Mage, yes he has flash so it fits to the deck, but he makes n+2 the cmc of the spells on yard and has a tigerred ability. So he 's a countereable / stifleable spell.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Ah, but that's the point! You don't know whether you should Remand on turn 2 and Scroll on turn 3, or Scroll on turn 2 and Remand on turn 3. Casting Merchant Scroll means (short of FoW) letting them do whatever the hell they want that turn. That's a pretty risky play.

Edit: While casting Merchant Scroll on turn 3 means you have a mana open for dig or Flusterstorm, it also means you have given up the option of going off on turn 3.

2nd Edit: I'm actually quite curious as to how Lim Dul's Vault would work, as cracking a T2 fetch (when they are tapped out, so no wasteland) for an Underground Sea into Vault looks like it would set you up pretty well for a turn 3 win, either on your own turn or on their next turn (if you needed to use Reset).

Yeah, it is almost always better to tutor on turn 3. You see 2 more cards (1 from Remand), and with 1 untapped Island, Scroll is Daze-proof and there is mana for Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm. If they did not play anything relevant on turn 2, good for you as you probably won't be killed on turn 3.

Has anyone been testing a Mage list? I seriously doubt Solidarity can combo with 3 Islands more than 1/3 of the time. With 8 counters, I would accept a turn 3-4 loss.

[GGoober]

Intuition almost becomes a must as a 3-off in Snapcaster builds. I've been testing/goldfishing 4 Snapcaster, 3 Snap, 3 Intuition MD, and many times I find that going the Intuition route with Snapcaster has greatly improved the win consistency as opposed to hopefully chain a draw spell off another draw spell (I had 3 Impulse fizzle on me when I was going off at one point).

I was testing Gifts Ungiven over Intuition but the mana bump is significant and you can't grab 2-3 spells with the same name when you sometimes need to in certain situations. It feels really scary that Intuition + Snapcaster is somewhat more powerful than Demonic Tutor when it resolves.

I ran into an interesting hand on turn 3 last night.

3 Islands:
Hand: 2 High Tide, 1 Reset, 1 Snapcaster, 1 Snap, 1 Brain freeze, 1 Remand

This was a draw independent hand but outlines how powerful playing multiple Brain Freezes in a single turn abuses a low storm count.
(Tide, Tide, Reset, Brainfreeze (4 storm),
Remand (Brainfreeze), Snapcaster (Reset), Snap (Snapcaster), Reset
Brainfreeze (9 storm), Snapcaster (Brainfreeze), Brainfreeze (11 storm))

Anyway, what I'm really amazed with is the fact that Snapcaster builds not just enable Snaps (which help in our aggro matchup), but I've been testing out 2 Repeals in the SB (against decks like Bant/TA/Zoo/Goblins/Vial), and the nice thing is Repeal is not a dead draw against aggro in the combo phase (since you can repeal Snapcaster back again). So against aggro deck, having 4 Snap + 2-3 Repeal postboard is quite incredible. Against non-aggro decks, 3 Snaps in the MD is still undead as long as you resolve Snapcaster (which should be the focus in the Intuition-Snapcaster path to victory). For non-aggro decks, I'm really beginning to like MD/SB of up to 4 Flusterstorm.

Here was the list that I was practicing with. It still needs a little fine-tuning.

Lands: 19
6 Fetch
13 Island

Dig: 15
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
3 Intuition

Combo: 19
4 High Tide
3 Snap
4 Reset
2 Turnabout (I have 2 MD because I feel you need at least 6 unsituational untappers)
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Brainfreeze

Permission: 7
4 Remand
3 Force of Will

I really want to have 9 permission spell because I feel 7 feels tad light. I am not impressed with FoW in this list, and I'm very tempted to go to either 3 Flusterstorm or 2 Flusterstorm + 1 Repeal. Note that every card in the deck is not dead during the combo phase except lands and FoW. If FoW is replaced by 2 Repeal in a more aggro environment, not only would Repeal function against an opposing deck, but drawn repeals actually continue to fuel the combo.

I would like to fit 3-4 Opts in the above list, but I'm finding slots incredibly tight. Any advice?

[Spigore]

Heya Metalwalker,

Not to ruin your mood, but you need to open slots for Cunning Wish to even be able to beat Emrakul/Progenitus in game 1.

[Silent Requiem]

I've been doing some testing, and I don't actually feel that Snapcaster really belongs in Solidarity or Spiral Tide. Instead, I think he gives birth to a new High Tide archetype that needs it's own list.

For example:

1) To properly abuse Snapcaster, you probably want to run Intuition, which takes up space that Solidarity does not have.

2) If you are running Snap, you might want to run Cloud of Faries to make sure you always have a Snap target; this means running at sorcery speed, which in turn suggests Merchant Scroll and precludes Reset.

3) FoW does not play well with Snapcaster. Pact of Negation loves Snapcaster. Repeal is also clearly better than Remand once you start the combo. Flusterstorm is still brokenly good.

The various synergies push a Snapcaster deck towards a sorcery speed version that runs hyper efficient search/card advantage and uses a very different disruption package.

[overseer1234]

Wouldn't it just be spring tide with snapcaster and intuition then?

That's already a turn 3 deck, so if that's the case I don't really see why it should bother with snapcaster...

And by playing intuition you slow it down again, and it becomes a turn 4 deck.

Then I'd rather play solidarity over that (as I like to abuse the stack... I't my bitch)


However I might be wrong (just my opinion...).

[GGoober]

Heya Metalwalker,

Not to ruin your mood, but you need to open slots for Cunning Wish to even be able to beat Emrakul/Progenitus in game 1.

Yes, I'm playing a MD that loses to Emrakul/Progenitus game 1, but that's accounted in the SB.

@Silent Requiem: I was just discussing your idea with a couple of friends. Basically I was thinking the strengths of Solidarity is dominance over the stack war AND the ability to use a very cost efficient untapper (Reset).

I discussed with my friend a possibility to build a list that has the potential to go off on either opponent's turn or on our turn, with the following possible changes (I have not tested the idea yet)

1) Replace Resets with Candelabras. On turns 1-3, your cantrips and digs should be finding you a Candelabra.
2) Play Merchant Scrolls.
3) Win via Snapcaster Intuition primarily instead of chaining Meditate draws (you still run Meditates).

I talked to my friend that this theorized list should be more often winning on your OWN turn. There is less stack wars dominance but the deck is still primarily instants outside of Merchant Scroll and Candelabra. This doesn't really affect things as much since the rest of the deck is still instant-based and you can primarily still win stack wars. You are primarily going off on your own turn (to maximize drawn Candelabras/Merchant Scrolls) but you can still go off on an opponent's turn if you have 1-2 Candles in play and the Snapcaster/Snap/Intuitions in hand. Going off on your own turn via the Snapcaster-Intuition route guarantees a victory if it resolves (sometimes chaining draws may fizzle). Going off on your own turn retaining a big instant pool of cards will still allow you to usually win stack wars, and it also fights clique nicely (a scary card for Solidarity).

The only problem I'm running into is:
1) This theory/decklist is entirely new/untested/undeveloped (but it's really nice to see that other people are thinking the same way too.
2) Is the Snapcaster/Snap/Intuition package stronger than just playing Spiral Tide? For most parts, I would say yes. I've been goldfishing Snapcaster lists and being able to play a huge pool of instants is critical on the combo phase turn against disruption. Spiral Tide most definitely won't be able to abuse Snapcaster lists perfectly due to post-spiral decrease in consistency with an empty graveyard. Solidarity can very nicely abuse Snapcaster but faces some tight maindeck slot issues (It is incredibly hard to fit the new package of Intuition/Snap/Snapcaster and retain Opts etc).

I haven't gotten to testing the new list that I'm working on but let us know if you have any brainstorming/testing with your list Silent!

[Zinch]

I think you people are overrating the need of intuition with snapcaster mage...

I've been testing the classsic solidarity shell with SCM but without intuitions and it functions very well. During the combo, you just don't need an intuition if you have a mage... your graveyard will be full!

Snapcaster reduces a LOT your chances of frizzling. In 30 or so games I played, I frizzled 2 times: one against zoo on the draw (with only 3 lands... not an easy task) and one against Blade control with a strong start and some counters (this was before MM banning).

On the other hand, some days ago, I had the same idea as Silent Requiem, but in the end I thought that if you go at sorcery speed, it was just better to run Spiral Tides and forget the mages. But who knows?

[ScatmanX]

@Metalwalker:
1 Cunning Wish on the deck solves the Emrakul problem. No worries about that.
That said, I'm skeptic if this version is better than either Solidarity or Spiral Tide.
I built a new Spring Tide (without Spiral) version, that combos easily with 3 lands, but don't know how much I liked it so far.
I'm happy to see that there are more people here exploiting the matter.

[Koby]

I would tend to agree too, that Snapcaster/Intuition package is better suited for the older Spring Tide list, which can't effectively use Time Spiral, but plays more powerful tutors that are Sorcery speed.

The deck described in this thread doesn't appear to need the extra punch from Intuition, but could utilize Snapcaster Mage quite effectively. I'm in the process of testing Snap Tide based upon Spiral Tide, so we'll see. I suspect it will be hard to evaluate effectively because of a marginal gain from adding Snapcaster Mage.

[Silent Requiem]

I've just finished some serious play testing of a preliminary Snap Tide build (goldfishing only; the build is nowhere near ready for real play), and I have some comments. First, though, the list:


Lands:

10 Islands
8 Fetchland

Instants:

4 High Tide
4 Snap
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Meditate
2 Cunning Wish
1 Brain Freeze

Sorceries:

4 Merchant Scroll
4 Preordain

Creatures:

4 Snapcaster
4 Cloud of Faeries

To begin with, once you get used to the deck, it goes off on turn 3 like clockwork (absent disruption, of course). You are looking for four cards: High Tide, Snapcaster, Snap & Intuition. If you have those cards you can win on turn three. Outside of pilot error & disruption, the combo is completely fizzle-proof; you WILL win.

The best part (and the reason that I'm posting in the Solidarity thread rather than Spring Tide) is that the combo is still instant speed! Only your initial dig is sorcery speed, and you don't need it once the combo is assembled.

So you can still delay going off if you want to, although there is generally no advantage in doing so. And unlike current builds, there is no "dead space" at the beginning of their turn; go ahead and deck them in their upkeep if you feel like it.

Let's talk specifics, though. How can this build be improved?

Card Choices:

Lands - 18 lands seems about right; I'm rarely land flooded, and I sometimes have trouble making my third land drop off a bad hand. This doesn't stop me going off, you understand, as long as I can find that third land while I combo off. I might even up the number of fetches to improve Brainstorm, but I seem to always have a fetch when I needed it, so perhaps the balance is right.

High Tide/Snapcaster/Snap/Intuition - these make the deck work, and finding them is critical. I wouldn't want to play less than four of each.

Cloud of Faeries - If you have managed to assemble the combo, you never play this card. However, if you are short a card you can use it in a "traditional" free-style combo, albeit on your own turn. However, you can also drop them on turn two without disrupting your dig, which can help buy you some time. Probably worth keeping as an all around solid backup plan.

Meditate - This can almost certainly go. I never cast it, because it is just too slow. I could see it having some purpose in the sideboard to fight discard, but Visions of Beyond is probably better if we are facing massive discard or control. It could be replaced by either more dig or disruption.

Preordain - Yes, it's better than Ponder here. You are digging for specific cards, and you can't afford dead cards on top of your library when you do that. You can only crack one relevant fetch if you go off on turn three, and Brainstorm needs that one.

Cunning Wish - I never find myself wanting Cunning Wish, but we do need an answer to Emrakul in the main, so it probably needs to stay.

That's my initial finding, and I have to say that I'm more excited about the build than I thought I would be; despite running sorceries, the combo is still instant speed.

[Koby]

Silent - Would Impulse work better in the Meditate slot? Would Peer through Depths work better yet?

[ScatmanX]

@Silent: Put at least 1 Pact of Negation on the Main deck.
Instead of Meditate, have you thought about Time Spiral? It also fights discard well. If they take it, you combo off as usual. If they take Snapcaster/Intuition, Spiral for a fresh 7, and win.
I think 1 Wish is fine already. If they counter it, you can Snapcaster it. If they don't, you probably won't need a second.

Another good thing about this build is that Tegg does nothing against it, but in a build with 4 Snaps, that wouldn't be something to worry that much. Also, you don't have to put Snaps on SB, which is a plus.

How about a SB with 4 Resets, 2 Turnabouts? if they bring in Extirpate, it may get hard for you to win with this version, but normal Solidarity isn't so affected by it.

Keep posting your thought here. It's nice to read them. (though I think the Spring Tide would be better suited for this kind of deck...)

[Silent Requiem]

I was perhaps a bit harsh on Meditate. In further testing it has won me a few games where I could not assemble the normal combo. Of course if it had been dig, perhaps I would have been able to assemble the combo...

Peer Through Depths is not ideal; our toughest card to find is Snapcaster (we can't Scroll for him), and PtD can't grab him. Impulse is a decent idea. Ponder and Opt are further alternatives.

Of course, I'm conscious that the deck is currently light on disruption, and I don't know that the extra speed alone will be enough against decks like Merfolk. Strangely, Daze might have a home here. While the deck needs three lands to start off, once we have cast that first High Tide, we only ever tap and untap two lands, so Daze could be used on the combo turn. It could also be used to slow faster decks without disrupting our sorcery speed dig. This would cost us a turn, but against some decks (storm, etc) it would clearly be worthwhile.

The other contender is Pact of Negation, which is purely defensive (although, since we can go off in our own upkeep, a strong hand could allow you to use it proactively).

Edit: Although we CAN go off on turn three, we don't have to. This means that Clique could also be very strong, as well as a alternate win while we chump block/bounce Goyf all day.

[Seraphus]

Why don't you go to the damn New and developement decks folder?

I promise not to do this but for the sake and sanity of Solidarity players will post my list:


// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
12 [P3] Island (1)

// Creatures
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [LG] Reset
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [FNM] Remand
4 [VI] Impulse
1 [JU] Flash of Insight
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [US] Turnabout
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [TE] Meditate
2 [NPH] Dismember
3 [IN] Opt
1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
2 [GP] Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 2 [UL] Snap
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast


Why no snap, intuition or some pseudo-snapcaster enhancers? The mage don't need enhancements...
Emrakull question: BSZ is in main deck during play don't waste your mana on draws just select cards more wisely, look carefully for untappers Brain Freeze your op and use remand or a second BF plus the BSZ - i assure you it works (as other things just practice this and you'll get the hang of it)...
Dismember: it's not a pure cantrip, but think of it: killing a nacatl turn 1 isn't cantrip? Now add the possibility of remand 2nd turn or Repeal...
Cunning: sure its good but you'll see that there's no need...
1 FOI: the mage wont be very usefull if there's no grave...

If anyone has more questions just ask i'll answer, if someone whats me to share some plays just ask i'll do it. But sorcery speed high tide decks is named Spring tide NOT SOLIDARITY...

P.s: I promise myself that i would avoid posting here so if you want to continue to divert the idea of an instant speed deck go ahead, i wont bother anymore...

[Silent Requiem]

@ ScatmanX

I don't think Time Spiral plays well with Snapcaster; in testing I've dropped to a single Meditate (which I can Scroll for), and this has been better. I've also dropped to 1 Wish. I've put Opt in the extra slots, but I'm not all that impressed; this will probably get switched out for some kind of disruption.

Extirpate is rough on this deck, but I don't think Reset & co is the answer.

Truth is, while this combo is fizzle proof, it's also made of spun glass; it does not deal with disruption well. In this sense it is much closer to traditional combo decks, as we have no spare mana and very little ability to deviate from our spell chain.

Even Force of Will is mediocre here; if I go off on turn 3, I will have access to 9 cards (opening 7 + 2 draws; dig just replaces itself). 3 of these have to be land, and 4 are combo cards. That leaves FoW and (hopefully) a blue card to pitch. Not much protection. Obviously, the deck does not mulligan terribly well, though it rarely needs to mulligan.

I've already floated the possibility of Daze, and a singleton PoN seems strong. However, because we don't need much in the way of lands, we can afford to splash without opening ourselves to wasteland. Our sideboard could contain a basic land & a dual (for easier fetching when there is no wasteland) and some off color disruption.

Black offers discard, of course. Green offers Autumns Veil and Xantid Swarm. White offers Silence effects. I'm leaning towards white because Silence beats control AND Storm. If Counterbalance becomes strong again, though, black and green become more attractive. Green offers no solution to Extirpate, however.

Edit @ Seraphus

As I said, the reason I posted here is that the proposed deck still combos at instant speed; I've simply added some powerful sorcery speed tutoring to allow us to assemble the combo faster.

[Seraphus]

Edit @ Seraphus

As I said, the reason I posted here is that the proposed deck still combos at instant speed; I've simply added some powerful sorcery speed tutoring to allow us to assemble the combo faster.

And how many times do you start combo and fizzle because you draw lands? Or because you draw the wrong cards?

I don't have anything against new high tide decks, i dedicate my time to perfect the deck that i mostly love ever to play (that's not entirely true since the deck i loved the most was Mind's Desire)...

Even the fact of using situation cards like repeal or remand is very dangerous mid combo... the mage give us the possibility of fighting those empty draws as it can be or a draw or an untapper, but we need to reinforce the maindeck cards (that's why Cunning wish isn't an option here)...

Think about it...

[GGoober]

Just to throw it out, this is the build that I have been working on:


LANDS: 18
4 Strand
2 Delta
12 Island


TIDE/UNTAPPERS: 16
4 High Tide
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Snap

DIG: 15
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Impulse
3 Meditate

TUTORS/OTHERS: 5
3 Intuition
1 Cunning Wish
1 Brainfreeze

PROTECTION: 6
4 Remand
2 Flusterstorm

SB: 15
1 BSZ
1 Hibernation
1 Turnabout
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
3 Repeal
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction

I know it doesn't have FoW, but the only thing that you should really FoW against this deck are:
Lackey, Wild Nacatl, Hymn, FoW, Counterbalance, Ad Nauseam, Dark Ritual, Show and Tell etc, all of which are answered with Repeal (Lackey/Nacatl/Vial/Chalice/Counterbalance, Repeal is even less dead against these decks and hate-bears since you can use any drawn Repeals on Snapcasters during the combo phase) and with Flusterstorm + Pierce (Hymn, Duress, faster combo, control).

The list that I posted above was built 2-days ago. I have only goldfished about 20+ games. It has the potential to go off on the opponent's turn if you have 1 Candelabra in play and Snapcaster + Draw/Intuition in hand. But for most parts, you are going off on your own turn to maximize Scrolls and Candelabras drawn but in the narrow case, you can go off on an opponent's turn. This situation mainly arises when you want to see if you can get another turn by passing the turn and if your opponent is at risk of just killing you before you get a turn, you can attempt to go off, if they don't, you untap draw another card to improve yet another turn of consistency.

The main reason I feel the above list posted above (similarly Silent Requiem) has an appeal is because the deck is still fundamentally instant-based. Being instant-based and dominating stack wars is ONLY relevant in one crucial situation, that is: fighting opposing disruption/control. Whether you win on your turn or your opponent's turn is purely about weighing the pros/cons of using Resets. Without Resets, you shift your winning turn on your turn. Reset is difficult to trump, because at 2-mana, it untaps ALL lands.

However, playing resets limit the deck's other options, that is forcing the deck to play with a limited card selection (No Merchant Scrolls etc). Reset also forces you to pack a number of turnabouts, otherwise you will lose consistency in untappers. I've done a simple analysis on Candelabra/Turnabout/Reset in the past (many pages back before Candelabra was even popular in Tide.decks with the exception of being played in Permanent Waves).

Reset is of course the most cost-efficient untapper.

Assuming 1 high tide,

2 lands:
Reset: -2+4=+2
Turnabout: -4+4=0 (this is actually N/A since you won't have the initial startup mana of 4, but putting it here anyway)
Candelabra: -2+4=+2 (-1) (the last -1 counts the initial mana investment to have the Candelabra in play)

3 lands:
Reset: -2+6=+4
Turnabout: -4+6=+2
Candelabra: -3+6=+3 (-1)

4 lands:
Reset: -2+8=+6
Turnabout: -4+8=+4
Candelabra: -4+8=+4 (-1)

This simple case shows that Reset is by far the most efficient untapper (no-surprise). Candelabra breaks even with Turnabout at 3-4 lands, which is the fundamental turn of the deck with snapcasters. Any more lands, Turnabout gets better than Candelabra but that doesn't mean Candelabra isn't cost-efficient. There are some other hidden bonuses to playing Candelabra post-MM. Candelabra on turn 1 or early frees your combo-turn mana. Unlike Turnabout which requires you to risk turnabout getting countered and time-walked and a steep initial casting cost of 2UU which limits your ability to fight the instant-stackwar, Candelabra allows you to guarantee an uncounterable untapping (subjected to Needle/Revoker/Stifle though) if it lands in play before the combo phase. With MM gone, it's easier to lose to a Daze/Snare these days, diminishing the power of Turnabout (2UU is pretty steep).

The replacement of Reset with Candelabra in the list above is really based on this simple analysis, to shift the deck's ability to win on either your turn or opponent's turn (if you have a Candelabra in play it is possible). You gain access to Merchant Scroll, and potentially Preordain (I haven't optimized my list and I'm not sure if I would drop impulse for Preordain and really focus the deck on winning on my turn and lose the option to win on an opponent's turn).

I've still a lot of testing to do, but just throwing out my list that I've been working on. As long as the deck still plays primarily as an instant-based deck, going off on your turn instead of an opponent's turn has its merits i.e. you can't get cliqued and autolose, and you gain access to Preordain/Ponder/Merchant Scroll.

[GoldenCid]

2 [NPH] Dismember
...

This addition is great!!! The -4 life deserses the pity!!

And flusterstorm comes in change of Mindbreak trap??

[Seraphus]

This addition is great!!! The -4 life deserses the pity!!

And flusterstorm comes in change of Mindbreak trap??

I still have MB trap, i find flusterstorm to be a little bit weak alone, and against MUD decks MB Trap fits very well sometimes you want to push back vendilions/spellstuter and flusterstorm is useless...

[Vacrix]

Is there a reason everyone is trying Snapcasters in monoblue builds? If it does produce such an absurd amount of mana then why aren't we playing Hunting Pack? It works well against aggro. You go off in response, block all their shit and then swing back for the kill. For example... Remand your opponent's spells, Repeal your opponent's creatures, and then Tangle --> Snapcasting your way to the win sounds like it could catch on.

Also, only playing four 1cc cantrips is not going to work out. Even decks like Doomsday and TES play more cantrips and they have a much easier time setting up as they forgo land drops. Play at least 6 or you will be kicking yourself.

@Seraphus
Its a well known fact in this thread that the deck combos somewhere between turn 3 and turn 5. Our purpose should not be to make the combo more consistent once we are already winning. Fizzling because you draw lands? Play Tolarian Wind in the board, discard 5 lands and 2 cantrips, draw a hand chalk full of biz. Happens all the time.

Further, Solidarity tends to have more than a handful of games in which the pilot loses because of a very subtle play mistake. Then, the pilot compensates for that mistake by setting themselves a little behind and then riding the decks consistency to the finish. Honestly, when I go off with Solidarity, I don't fizz. Its getting to that point that is difficult in the current metagame. Why? Aggro is fast. Mental Misstep might be gone so the metagame is going to shift against Goblins (thank god). Combo winter? No, lets melt the fucking ice and inundate some bitches.


Aside, I've been looking at Quicken as a cantrip again.. for kicks and stumbled upon this:
Flux 2U
Sorcery
Each player discards any number of cards, then draws that many cards.
Draw a card.

It replaces itself and it does a lot of work for us once it resolves. Don't like those lands in your hand? Get rid of them for some cantrips. It could work as a setup card or a combo piece, and now that we have Snapcaster Mage it could function as business spell on our own turn because we don't necessarily need Resets to successfully go off. Especially when the discarded cards can just be played later if need be with Snapcaster, I think that Flux is worth looking into if people feel like exploring some potentially new tech.



But seriously..... Snapcaster is the new tech and I see recycling Fog effects being pretty good in a green splash. Thoughts?

[Seraphus]

LOL seriously i am going to argue this just because i don't want to leave an open debate, but really, "when i combo i don't fizzle"? Man meditate to 3 lands reset never happen to you? That speech talking about players mistakes, you don't need to tell me that since i play this deck for 4 years... But in terms of rates this deck have a high fizzle rate (more than ANT or TES even higher than spiral tide).

If you had sorceries to this deck you'll not allow it to be stronger you'll diminish the percentages of "already winning" situations, yes you can remove reset for sorcery speed but thats not solidarity...

Combo on turn 5-and up its easy (ah, btw, solidarity doesn't combo on turn 3 or 5, that's a common mistake, it combo at the turn its obligated to due so according to variations that go from the cards in hand to board position etc).

You can do was you wish, i am just sharing my point of view on this...
I think i finally found my list to fight through Amsterdam, only one or two adjustments, other folks that i pm and share our knowledge on the deck and plays also have been successfully playing it. So, as i said, if someone wants to work on Solidarity i am here to help, but i don't agree with this kind of transformations... I hand you my List so use it don't use it is up to you...

[Vacrix]

It doesn't. Seriously can't remember the last time I drew 3 land off Meditate because you usually don't want to go High Tide, X untap effects, Meditate. You want to wait to play Meditate if you can afford to because you can dig deeper into the deck, check how many lands you are sending to the bottom (Impulse/PTD) juxtaposed with how many you've played and have in the yard. Even if you did draw 3 lands, it was probably because you needed to play Meditate in a different way.. for example, a few turns later because you could stall aggro with something like Repeal, Remand, or Fog effects.

Solidarity has a higher fizzle rate then other combo decks because people try to play the deck like Goblins is a turn slower than it is. There comes a point where the deck fizzing is irrelevant because Solidarity will literally be the goldfish if it doesn't disrupt the opponents strategy or win first. Dismember is a fancy idea, how is it working? 4 life seems like a lot on top of fetchlands.




Green splash, sample hand below:
My Hand:
Island, Polluted Delta, Impulse, Impulse, Brainstorm, Tangle, Island

Solidarity vs. Goblins G2
T1: Island, go
T/1: Mountain, Lackey

T2: Draw --> Snapcaster, Island, go
T/2: Draw, Mountain, Swing 1 --> Goblin Warchief, Piledriver x2, go
/EOT: Impulse --> [Meditate, Reset, Reset, Fetch] --> Reset

T3: Draw --> Island, play Polluted Delta
T/3: Draw, swing for 17? ................// plays Aether Vial after response
/Response: Brainstorm --> [Twincast, Island, Opt] --> Twincast, Fetch --> Tropical Island, Tangle, go

T4: Draw --> Impulse, play Island,
T/4: Counter on Vial (1), Draw, Wasteland --> Tropical Island ............// plays Goblin Matron --> Ringleader, swing 1
/Response: Impulse --> [Tangle, Fetch, High Tide, Island] --> High Tide, Impulse --> [Fetch, Meditate, Flusterstorm x2] --> Fetch, go

T5: Draw --> Snap, Polluted Delta, go
T/5: (everything untaps), Counter on Vial (2), Draw, Mountain, Ringleader, swing for lethal? ...............//
/Response: Fetch --> Tropical Island, Snapcaster --> Tangle, go

T6: Draw --> Opt, (3 Islands 1 Tropical Island), go
T/6: Draw, Counter on Vial (3), Matron (Vial) --> Piledriver, Piledriver, Lackey, swing for 6, drop Siege Gang Commander,
/EOT: Opt --> Island, bottom, High Tide, go

T7: Draw Island, play Island, go
T/7: Go off comfortably with the following in hand:
Meditate, Twincast, Snap, High Tide, High Tide, Reset

And the following on the field
Snapcaster, 4 Islands, 1 Tropical Island


What was illustrated here?
That Tangle will consistently buy you two turns for 1G and expose your build to a little Wasteland AND that Snapcaster can give it flashback? Even if you get your land wasted.. Snaps and Snapcasters allow the deck to play off very few lands and I find myself going off successfully with 3 or 4 Islands even after Wasteland.

More importantly, Tangle + Snapcaster = 4 protected turns against aggro




@Seraphus
Ah but Solidarity does combo between turn 3 and 5 when you play against aggro, and thats the context I'm referring to. I have no problem with control decks as they lose to well timed countermagic. Aggro decks steam roll us if we take too long to setup. So... we can do one of two things, generally speaking:
Make the Solidarity faster
Make aggro slower

Best way to make aggro slower? Thats the discussion really. I think fog effects are sick, and Tangle is the best one with Snapcaster. You seem to like Dismember, Repeal, and Remand, and obviously your post-board. I like Repeal and Remand in my maindeck, can't say I've played with Dismember but I'd think that Repeal would be better as it hits permanents as well (in the case that you run into permanent hate which should come about if High Tide gets bigger), it replaces itself, and you don't have to pay 4 life. I guess you find yourself targeting Lords with it, which in theory should slow down aggro, but at the expense of 4 life and 1 card, does it get there AS WELL AS something else could?

At the expense of 0 life, you could slow down that attack phase for 2 whole turns, including the one you are in, and again if you have a Snapcaster. Its like a fucking virtual Timewalk for 1G against aggro. Wouldn't you want play that? Also, Tangle lets you drop lands, possibly replacing the Tropical Island that gets wasted (if it does). I think everyone can calm down about exposing your deck to wasteland. We should be playing Snap in the maindeck now, and that will help us go off with fewer lands against an opponent who is Wastelanding our shit. Just be careful with your fetchlands and know that you might need to set up a 4 turn virtual time walk through Wasteland.

[Silent Requiem]

And how many times do you start combo and fizzle because you draw lands? Or because you draw the wrong cards?

Think about it...

I'm not sure you really understand the decklist I posted. Let's be clear: absent disruption, the build I posted does not fizzle (ever) if you assemble three lands and Tide-Snapcaster-Snap-Intuition. You are entirely draw independent, and don't need to worry about sorceries clogging up your hand. It is a guaranteed instant speed decking.


Is there a reason everyone is trying Snapcasters in monoblue builds? If it does produce such an absurd amount of mana then why aren't we playing Hunting Pack? It works well against aggro. You go off in response, block all their shit and then swing back for the kill. For example... Remand your opponent's spells, Repeal your opponent's creatures, and then Tangle --> Snapcasting your way to the win sounds like it could catch on.


I've not actually found Snapcaster/Snap to generate much mana; in fact you need two High Tide in play for it to generate any mana at all. What the combo does, though, is generate massive amounts of storm without requiring you to draw cards. In this sense, then, it is better suited to a cheap Brain Freeze kill.

That said, there is an alternative. If you are willing to play Reset (over Snapcaster) and Merchant Scroll, High Tide/Reset/Reset/Cunning Wish is just as easy to put together as Tide/Snapcaster/Snap/Intution - easier in fact, because you can Scroll for every card in the combo - and is a guarenteed turn 3 win via Hunting Pack. It's a half turn slower (because you have to go off on their turn, which means their turn 4 in half your games), but it also allows the deck to play the slower game if you so desire; Snap Tide does not benefit from additional land drops the way Reset Tide does.

This alternate combo opens you up to Wasteland (though you can still make it work if you fetch a Forest), but is less vulnerable to soft counters because it generates extra mana.

[Seraphus]

@Seraphus
Ah but Solidarity does combo between turn 3 and 5 when you play against aggro, and thats the context I'm referring to. I have no problem with control decks as they lose to well timed countermagic. Aggro decks steam roll us if we take too long to setup. So... we can do one of two things, generally speaking:
Make the Solidarity faster
Make aggro slower

Best way to make aggro slower? Thats the discussion really. I think fog effects are sick, and Tangle is the best one with Snapcaster. You seem to like Dismember, Repeal, and Remand, and obviously your post-board. I like Repeal and Remand in my maindeck, can't say I've played with Dismember but I'd think that Repeal would be better as it hits permanents as well (in the case that you run into permanent hate which should come about if High Tide gets bigger), it replaces itself, and you don't have to pay 4 life. I guess you find yourself targeting Lords with it, which in theory should slow down aggro, but at the expense of 4 life and 1 card, does it get there AS WELL AS something else could?

At the expense of 0 life, you could slow down that attack phase for 2 whole turns, including the one you are in, and again if you have a Snapcaster. Its like a fucking virtual Timewalk for 1G against aggro. Wouldn't you want play that? Also, Tangle lets you drop lands, possibly replacing the Tropical Island that gets wasted (if it does). I think everyone can calm down about exposing your deck to wasteland. We should be playing Snap in the maindeck now, and that will help us go off with fewer lands against an opponent who is Wastelanding our shit. Just be careful with your fetchlands and know that you might need to set up a 4 turn virtual time walk through Wasteland.

For me splashing is not an option, it weaken the deck (mana screw situation are common in this deck and vs a wasteland drawing a tropical when screw isn't that good).
The thing is dismember is the only one 1 cmc drop that effectively deals with creatures...

[Silent Requiem]

Did some actual gauntlet testing; Snap Tide against Zoo, Goblins and Merfolk.

Snap Tide absolutely wrecks Zoo and Goblins; it's just too fast and too consistent. If they hold back burn and leave mana open you'll not want to risk the "standard" combo because Bolt on Snapcaster in response to Snap wrecks you (unless you have another Snap). Instead, lean on Cloud of Faeries and Meditate to combo off "traditionally".

Merfolk was another matter, as you can imagine. I actually won most of my matches, but I still felt that Merfolk was favoured. Daze was not nearly as helpful as I thought it would be, although I suppose it did draw some counters. We don't have enough mana in this build to use Flusterstorm, so Pact of Negation seems like the next best thing.

The deck is fast, and it's powerful, but I don't actually like playing it, strangely. Perhaps I'm just too much of a Solidarity traditionalist, but I dislike the control I'm giving up over my opponent's plays and my decreased resilience to disruption. I also miss the inevitability that Reset Tide brings to long games.

I think, barring new cards being printed, a Snap Tide build is "better" than a Reset Tide build. It's faster, more consistent and better at dealing with hatebears.

I'm just too attached to my Resets right now to consider abandoning them.

[alastair]

I'm just too attached to my Resets right now to consider abandoning them.

With this in mind; would you consider adding 'x' snapcaster, and/or 'x' snap, to a more traditional Reset build; assuming you leave out intuition.

I have not had a chance to test snapcaster, but mid combo and to a lesser extent prior to combo, he looks to offer flexibility (effectivly a graveyard tutor). I've never played with snap, so need to test this, but remain unconvinced of its worth at this time........ but with any change there is always the age old question 'what do you take out'.

I also beleive deck must be evolved and alternatives tested (even sorceries from time to time in this instance).

[GoldenCid]

,why neglect reset? This card gives life to the deck. Solidarity does not need to combo off as fast as possible but in the right moment using the tools we have to delay enough to the opponent: fow, repeal, dismember and remand. The rest are cantrips and winning conditions.

[chuck2657]

With this in mind; would you consider adding 'x' snapcaster, and/or 'x' snap, to a more traditional Reset build; assuming you leave out intuition.

I have not had a chance to test snapcaster, but mid combo and to a lesser extent prior to combo, he looks to offer flexibility (effectivly a graveyard tutor). I've never played with snap, so need to test this, but remain unconvinced of its worth at this time........ but with any change there is always the age old question 'what do you take out'.

I also beleive deck must be evolved and alternatives tested (even sorceries from time to time in this instance).

In general, snap makes the deck faster, at the cost of fragility of the combo. Spring tide goes off turn 3, occasionally 4 whereas solidarity goes off turn 4, preferably 5. Spring tide is more affected (although you can play around it) by creature removal, and therefore more fragile. It also should be noted that high tide eclipsed both of these decks before MM came out. Spring tide is faster, but high tide is an amazingly consistent and durable t4 kill.

I don't think snapcaster-tide belongs in this thread. Solidarity is a combo/control deck. Spring tide is the version of that deck that opts for sorcery speed cantrips and the cloud/snap combo. The list is really just spring tide + snapcaster and intuition, that can go off at instant speed in certain circumstances. Moreover, it *plays* like spring tide - being a pure combo deck. The elements of control from solidarity are not there.

[alastair]

Moreover, it *plays* like spring tide - being a pure combo deck. The elements of control from solidarity are not there.

Agreed, but I may not have been clear. I'm not looking to play spring/tide, as I prefer the element of control/disruption Solidarity offers; FOW, Flusterstorm, Repeal ... or any combination of your preference.

I don't have a lot of time to playtest, and was seeking advise on whether 2-4 Snapcaster are worth the MD space. Without testing, it looks good on paper, acting as a tutor mid-combo for Tide, Reset, Pact, etc as the need demands, or pre-combo for Brainstorm / dig & a chump-blocker to buy a turn.

Perhaps adding 3x Snapcaster MD; cutting repeal (as Snapcaster acts as a blocker), and leaving 1-2 Wish for FOW/Pact, tools to deal with re-shuffle effects, and a final copy of Freeze/Hunt (ie: 4x Tide and Meditate MD).

[leegoo]

The correct number of snapcasters is 4. Generally at it's worst it reads "UU1 - Prevent the next 3 damage dealt to you, draw three cards, then put two back on top of your library in any order"

Personally, I like snaps and Intuitions (without Wishes) but I can see arguments against them. ScM on the other hand, should be a 4 of, no question.

[Silent Requiem]

A card I'm testing in a traditional build right now is Vendilion Clique; it's disruption before the combo, as well as removal, and a cantrip during the combo.

Anyone else tried this line of play before?

[Zinch]

And also is a target for the snaps... it seems a good idea. I'll try it too

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

A card I'm testing in a traditional build right now is Vendilion Clique; it's disruption before the combo, as well as removal, and a cantrip during the combo.

Anyone else tried this line of play before?

It's been suggested for Solidarity in my playgroup. It's obviously a solid, solid card, and opens up the possibility of winning by bashing them over 7 turns.

But I don't think its' optimal for Solidarity. We don't really want 3 mana card cycle. You'd rather tutor with Cunning Wish on turn 3 than draw 1.

We have plenty of other cards that specifically plays the way our strategy calls for, rather than a card that is strong and versatile.

I especially don't see Vedillion Clique making the cut now that we have Snapcaster to play with.

[Nuorukain]

WARNING; Contains slightly bad humour, irony, sarcasm and a bit of bragging. May contain bad writing and attitude problems, etc...

Hi fellow instantcasters! I just wanted to make this tiny semi brag-post!
Last night came back from a 41 player GPT Amsterdam here in Finland; went virtual 6-0 on the swiss (4-0-2 for "reality" due to understandable reasons) against a diverse field...The maindecks decklist being exactly the same solid "old school build" as before;
Matchups being;
r1
WhiteWheeniehatebears
-Play around a leonid arbiters & canonists & such; easy.

r2 / r3
Burn
Play around turn two; 3 goblin guides attacking, and on the third turn opponent attempting to deal total of 24 damage in the game. "Easy"; Hunting Pack=nuts.

Ant;
Opponent didn't have t1 or t2 kills that would go through Force/remand/disrupt/fluster/twincast
the rest of the game was just basic wait&win at your leisure...
r4 Reanimator
Game 1 opponent is a bit slow (and gets no animation spell with brainstorm/ponder &carefull study, thus I don't even need to waste force of wills or hit any of my business into dazes)
Game 2 is tighter, as the threat of Iona hangs there from t1 carefull study into topdeck Iona.
The sideboard is golden here, and after some serious disrupting, remanding, flusterstorming and force of willing, the 3rd topdecked reanimate WITH a single counterbackup each(on a 4 turn interwall(turns 2-5 gives me the urge to start digging something solid with meditates&impulses, relatively fast I see a Twincast. Twincasting the reanimate gets my opponent pretty confused, and once the dust clears out and some relatively witty remarks like "haven't seen that one before" are thrown from someone watching the play,
the Iona starts bashing after a skipped turn from the right side of the table banning black for "just in case"...

r5 Elves
ID. Didn't bother to play even for fun, but afaik this matchup is a bye? (atleast been previously)

r6 Painter against a "friend" (played most of the match;and would have won, took the ID anyway for attempting to stack the top8 favourably (with all the legal information and options and numerous questions with the judges if and how and when and with what information;etc we're allowed for the choosing of ID.)
Also a joke of "hey, my opponent offered me X for conceding..." to the judges caught as into nice theoretical discussion of HOW to give opponent a DQ with cruel cheating,that needs a fake witness and propably makes the cheaters nose bleed afterwards... ;)

Hurray, split win of the swiss; Time for top 8
BWG hate bears with plenty of discard, against a player who knows that deck inside out, and knows what happens in this matchup relatively well. Lost the die roll, which is BAD.
opening hand consists of 7 instants. 6 card hands are not going to make it against t2 Thoughtseize&hymn (with a bird acceleration) followed by a t3 hymn and beaters.
G2 is easy picking, as I get to go first and disrupts, remands and flusterstorms do efectively timewalk for all the practical purposes (although I try to make mistakes with the going off and thus just need to brainfreeze for lethal and hope there's no shenanigans like Blessing&whatnot.)
g3 again nice 7 spell opener, and the 6 cards again doesn't make it against double hymn&thoughtseize. (almost any "mediocre" 7card hand Or winning the dieroll would have made it under the disruption, but alas "we played some magic".)

But hey, I had a point also with this rant; those familiar with this kind of build/version of this deck; ANY really good&serious techy ideas for the sideboard(or mainboard) as I'd be seriously interested in somehow squeezing in 4 disrupts &2 diverts (or 3&3 in addition to the flusterstorms) or any other seriously good sideboard plans? Anyone? ;)
Anyways, see you at Amsterdam! ;)

Yours truly,
Nuorukain (Mikko Hyvärinen)
List for reference and to be mocked for your leisure! ;)
Instant [42]
4 Reset
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
2 Opt
2 Brain Freeze
4 High Tide
4 Force of Will
3 Turnabout
2 Peek
1 Twincast
4 Brainstorm
4 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
Land [18]
10 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
1 Brain Freeze
1 Twincast
1 Meditate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Hibernation
2 Disrupt
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hunting Pack
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Cryptic Command
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Echoing Truth

[Spigore]

A card I'm testing in a traditional build right now is Vendilion Clique; it's disruption before the combo, as well as removal, and a cantrip during the combo.

Anyone else tried this line of play before?

At the moment I'm testing a single maindeck Leviathan. It's a very good way of switching the gameplan. Since when your opponent knows he's dealing with a Solidarity player, he will always shuffle away his Swords to Plowshares after a brainstorm. Then you surprise them with this huge boss. Clique would be a real good addition to the creature strategy.

My playgroup also suggested a single Cruel Ultimatum to deal with various kinds of situations.


Come on man, are you serious about Clique? Since your explanation really didn't make any sense at all!

[Spigore]

Double

[Seraphus]

@ Nuorukain: Congrants and thank you to return this thread to solidarity lists (classic builds are still amazing right?)

[jjjoness']

At the moment I'm testing a single maindeck Leviathan. It's a very good way of switching the gameplan. Since when your opponent knows he's dealing with a Solidarity player, he will always shuffle away his Swords to Plowshares after a brainstorm. Then you surprise them with this huge boss. Clique would be a real good addition to the creature strategy.


We're talking Stormtide Leviathan right?

How has that been working out for you? I honestly can't see how this would fix important issues except Counterbalance. You're not faster this way than you will be comboing out normally. The reason Solidarity is not a good deck atm is tempo.

[Zinch]

I think he was being sarcastic...

[Seraphus]

I think he was being sarcastic...

Like button...

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah probably it's either that or inkwell leviathan. But stormtide leviathan seems better since it's a pseudo moat so they can't kill us with their creatures.

If you're trying the classic leviathan that you have to sack islands to you're awful btw.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Yeah probably it's either that or inkwell leviathan. But stormtide leviathan seems better since it's a pseudo moat so they can't kill us with their creatures.

If you're trying the classic leviathan that you have to sack islands to you're awful btw.

he was joking :/

[GoldenCid]

On Dismember, is this a final addition? I know it's great but after thinking for a while i asked myself if snap could cover those slots...It provides untap effects during combo and for "ramanding" before it. Just to clear my mind...

[Silent Requiem]

I played in my local GPT this weekend. It was a smaller group that our usual tournament; anyone not serious about GP Amsterdam was playing the Innistrad release events.


Lands:

10 Islands
8 Fetchland
1 Tropical Island

Mana:

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout

Draw:

4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
3 Meditate

Disruption:

4 Force of Will
4 Remand
2 Vendilion Clique

Other:

4 Cunning Wish
1 Brain Freeze

Sideboard:

1 BSZ
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
3 Flusterstorm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Hunting Pack
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Surgical Extraction

This was a very, very different list for me, and I'll try and outline my thoughts.

First, I took out Cryptic Command and replaced it with a 4th Cunning Wish. While Cryptic is sometimes the exact card you need, often it's simply "good enough". By putting in the 4th Wish, I maintained the ability to find answers, but improved the flexibility of the slot. The risk, of course, was getting locked out of G1 answers to Counterbalance.

Then I took out both FoI and a Brain Freeze. These four cards (because you run two Brain Freeze) are essentially a minicombo. I've won a lot of games with that mini combo, but it's pretty clunky and takes up a great deal of space. And for every game that I remember I've won because of the mini combo, there are probably a couple that I don't remember losing because part of the mini combo sat dead in my hand.

Initially, I was not sure how to replace FoI. In the past, people have put in Peer Through Depths or similar cards, but in my experience it's nearly always worse than leaving the combo in. Instead, I decided to bring in 2 Vendillion Clique; they take up the same "spot" on the mana curve and also make it easier to combo off by clearing out counters. I also liked the idea of being able to drop early pressure against control or combo decks.

That just left me with the Brain Freeze spot, and I put in a Tropical Island. As long as I did not count it as a land, it was at worst no more dead pre combo than Brain Freeze would have been.

So, on the the GPT.

Round 1 - Affinity

Game 1: Although Affinity is not taken too seriously (because it is so easy to hate out), in the absence of hate, it's a fast, consistent aggro deck. He dropped a number of creatures on turn 1, and put the pressure on right away. Fortunately, I was able to go off on his turn 3 with a Hunting Pack win that cleared his board (less Ornithopters) and swung for the win the following turn.

Game 2: +1 Rebuild, -1 Brain Freeze. I expected Aethersworn Cannonist, so I kept a hand with FoW. I had to burn the FoW early, though, when he dropped a turn 2 Cranial Plating. Fortunately I had the Remand for the turn 3 Cannonist, and I was able to go off on turn 4 when he tried to play it again. Another Hunting Pack win.

Round 2 - Elf Combo

Game 1: He's on the play, which is very bad for me. I have no counters for his turn 1 and turn 2 creature drops, but I do have the Remand for his turn 3 (my turn 2) Regal Force. On his turn 4 he opts to play a Vengevine and aggro me out, but Hunting Pack wipes his board and wins me the game.

Game 2: +2 Surgical Extraction, -2 Vendilion Clique. I keep a hand with Surgical Extraction, which hits his Vengevines when he Intuitions for them on turn 2. When going through his deck I see Emrakul. I also see that he has a second Intuiton in hand, as well as Glimpse. He uses a short Glimpse burst to refill his hand, but I Impulse into my second Surgical Extraction, and target Glimpse. He is now unable to Intution into Glimpse and win (which, he told me after the game, had been his plan). This bought me the time I needed to combo out and deck him around Emrakul.

Round 3 - ID with Reanimator.

Semifinals - Counterbalance

Game 1: I win the roll, which turns out to be critical when he drops Stoneforge on turn 2, because it means I am able to Clique in response to his turn 3 Stoneforge activation. I take the Sword of Feast and Famine that would have wrecked me, and note that his disruption consists of Force of Will, and that he has a Jace.

I now have pressure on the table, and he can't sit back and sculpt his hand. This forces him to blow an early Snapcaster, just to maintain damage parity. I try to bait some of his counters with High Tide/Remand, but he Brainstorms into the good stuff, and counters the High Tide. The next turn he tries to land Jace, and I know it's now or never. Using untaps and Meditate, I manage do a mini combo with Hunting Pack, but the Meditate means he has an extra turn to find an answer. Jace finds Enlightened Tutor, and Enlightened Tutor finds Ensnaring Bridge.

He then lands an Inkmoth Nexus, and swords my Clique. He's going to try and kill me with poison tokens. I find wish, though, and grab a Krosan Grip for the Bridge. Win to me.

Game 2:

He needs a fast win, because there are 11 minutes left on the round. He keeps a hand with two Inkmoth Nexus and some permission. A straight up counter war ensues, and I manage to deck him, although I do get a warning for slow play as I try and figure out how to fight through the counter magic.

Finals: Reanimator

Reanimator already has two byes at Amsterdam due to rating, so he is happy to take second place and the prize money.

Net result? I won every game I played and now have 3 byes at Amsterdam!

I was, naturally, very happy with the list's performance, but a few things stuck out.

Unexpectedly, I won more games with Hunting Pack than I did with Brain Freeze. This led to some fast wins, and a far more relaxed tournament that I am used to. It's worth noting that the last time I tried Hunting Pack I also had one Tide in the wishboard, so although was still running four Wishes, I had two resources competing for their attention. In this build, I'm always able to Wish for Hunting Pack if I want it.

I did not find the 8 fetchlands to be too many. In addition to keeping my Brainstorms strong, it also meant that finding my Tropical for Hunting Pack was trivial.

I also liked Clique. I never felt it was clogging up my hand (even if I did not cast it) and it won me a game against counterbalance simply by putting them on a clock.

Comments? Questions?

[GoldenCid]

Congratulations! Reading your report one could ask why brain freeze? Hunting pack is amazing. Do you think that it was the right meta for it. Having a tropical islands gives me some insecurity when you draw it and there is a wasteland in front to answer you hide tide.

[Silent Requiem]

Brain Freeze is better against decks with untapped wastelands in play (unless you have sufficient untaps to play around wasteland), against control decks that might be able to answer Hunting Pack at instant speed (Echoing Truth, Pernicious Deed on the table, etc) or decks that are going to win "right now" (such as ANT with Ad Nauseam on the stack). Being able to choose the most appropriate kill in the circumstances is a huge advantage, and currently one which only TES can match. And frankly, we do it better (ie, instant speed).

Drawing into a dead Tropical is a pain, but that's why it's an extra, rather than part of the mana base. Brain Freeze (the card I removed) was also largely dead pre combo, so I don't see that the Tropical has actually weakened the deck particularly. It also enables Grip, which is fantastic.

[Vacrix]

Nice report Silent Requiem. I'm glad to see Hunting Pack doing well despite wasteland and the Clique's looks sick, but I think they would be better if you were running some Snaps.




Food for thought: Snapcaster > Remand

Remand gives us back BF so that we can essentially double the storm; however, Snapcaster provides us with a Flashbacked BF, equally as deadly. Provided that it works this way we can just drop Remand for Snapcaster. Further, Snapcaster has the advantage of being reusable via Snaps whilst also providing a potential 2/1 body for offense/defense.

Additionally, Snap > Turnabout as we could be spending half the mana whilst still leaving the option of a delay tactic (though limiting this to a creature context).

Suggested changes:
-3 Turnabout
-4 Remand
+3 Snap
+4 Snapcaster

-1 Slot (?)
+1 Snap (to board, perhaps)




Also, I see everyone trying to cram Intuition into their MD. I think that Silent Requiem's approach illustrates the versatility of a 4 Wish Build. Why not just seal the deal and not have to worry about mana once you are going off with Cunning Wish --> Intuition out of the board? 2U --> 2U doesn't seem too hard when we can clearly pull off 2U --> 5GG.. and thats without Snapcasters and Snaps maindeck.

[Silent Requiem]

I tried running Snap before Snapcaster came out, and it's really good in aggressive builds; you can go off with only two or three lands. The flip side is that it does not scale up as you drop more lands, and you always need High Tide to make it produce mana.

After playing around with Snap and Snapcaster I don't intend to run either; they are simply too aggressive for my tastes. That does not mean that others should not run them; I think it's as valid a playstyle choice as PtD v FoI or Twincast v Cryptic (I just noticed while typing this that I always seem to come down on the control side of these questions :D ).

Wishing for Intuition is genius, by the way. A very elegant solution. With four lands in play and High Tide, Snapcaster, Snap and Cunning Wish in hand you can create a draw independent spell chain that decks your opponent. It's one turn slower than Spring Tide, but the "combo" package takes up only a single sideboard slot (assuming you would have run Snapcaster and Snap any way). With a Reset/Turnabout in hand as well you can do it on turn three.

[nayon]

I tried running Snap before Snapcaster came out, and it's really good in aggressive builds; you can go off with only two or three lands. The flip side is that it does not scale up as you drop more lands, and you always need High Tide to make it produce mana.

After playing around with Snap and Snapcaster I don't intend to run either; they are simply too aggressive for my tastes. That does not mean that others should not run them; I think it's as valid a playstyle choice as PtD v FoI or Twincast v Cryptic (I just noticed while typing this that I always seem to come down on the control side of these questions :D ).

Wishing for Intuition is genius, by the way. A very elegant solution. With four lands in play and High Tide, Snapcaster, Snap and Cunning Wish in hand you can create a draw independent spell chain that decks your opponent. It's one turn slower than Spring Tide, but the "combo" package takes up only a single sideboard slot (assuming you would have run Snapcaster and Snap any way). With a Reset/Turnabout in hand as well you can do it on turn three.

So Snapcaster and Cliques? What does the final list look like? Feels like this deck is really evolving for the first time in a long while...

[Silent Requiem]

So Snapcaster and Cliques? What does the final list look like? Feels like this deck is really evolving for the first time in a long while...

Unfortunately, if anyone is doing any serious work on a Snap Tide build, they're not posting about it.

I'm continuing to refine my traditional build, though, and I'm playtesting intensely; usually for several hours each evening.

Right now I'm focusing on Zoo, as this is my gold standard deck to test against; if you can't reliably beat Zoo, you simply shouldn't bother showing up to the tournament. It's also a match I had been neglecting, and I paid for that at Nationals.

Did you know that Solidarity is so old the primer does not even contain matchup advice about Zoo? Yeah, crazy. And, unlike Goblins, Zoo has no obvious hate to bring in against it. I've toyed with Hibernation, but I've never been too impressed by it - it's too narrow for the main deck, which is where you need the answer to be for game one on the draw.

Still, I've been learning a lot about the match, and about Solidarity. Last night I went 7-3 against Zoo, which is a huge improvement on my Nationals record of 2-4.

Getting these results has involved some changes to the deck I played at the GPT, though.

To begin with, 10 disruption cards is simply too many (4 FoW, 4 Remand, 2 Clique). While the deck works fine like that with the Hunting Pack kill, I was losing goldfishing games where I restricted myself to the Brain Freeze win. I'd have crazy runs of bad luck, like chaining three Meditates together and drawing nothing but lands and disruption.

When I looked at other storm decks, they typically run 6-8 disruption slots in the main deck, which is on par with what classic Solidarity runs, so I cut two Remand as I had been drawing into it far more often than I liked. Remand is randomly broken, but often just clogs up your hand because aggro has dropped enough early threats that it's meaningless, or because you need to cast your dig spells instead.

I put two FoI back into the main deck, and my goldfishing became rock solid again. Even when not being triggered with Brain Freeze, the flashback helps smooth over those bad Meditates and provide a little extra card advantage.

It also strengthened my Wishes, as I'm sometimes left with Cunning Wish as my only draw spell. Wish for Meditate is expensive and risky, but sometimes you just don't have the mana for BSZ (my rule is that BSZ for less than 8 is not worth it, and you need to keep at least 6 mana open to allow for some extra dig to find the untap; so a minimum of 20 mana). Having FoI in the deck allows for a Cunning Wish into a Brain Freeze, which is useful in those circumstances.

Clique continues to perform, even in the aggro matchup, which surprised me. Zoo typically wins on turn four. If we are on the play, that means we can go off with four lands, but if they are on the play we have to go off on three. With some Hunting Pack hands this is possible, but Clique offers another out; not only does it block their biggest attacker (or Teag/Cannonist), usually buying you the extra turn you need, but it also strips away the burn that they probably intended to finish you off with. If you are out of burn range, cycle away that dead FoW. A solid card.

[Silent Requiem]

So Snapcaster and Cliques? What does the final list look like? Feels like this deck is really evolving for the first time in a long while...

Unfortunately, if anyone is doing any serious work on a Snap Tide build, they're not posting about it.

I'm continuing to refine my traditional build, though, and I'm playtesting intensely; usually for several hours each evening.

Right now I'm focusing on Zoo, as this is my gold standard deck to test against; if you can't reliably beat Zoo, you simply shouldn't bother showing up to the tournament. It's also a match I had been neglecting, and I paid for that at Nationals.

Did you know that Solidarity is so old the primer does not even contain matchup advice about Zoo? Yeah, crazy. And, unlike Goblins, Zoo has no obvious hate to bring in against it. I've toyed with Hibernation, but I've never been too impressed by it - it's too narrow for the main deck, which is where you need the answer to be for game one on the draw.

Still, I've been learning a lot about the match, and about Solidarity. Last night I went 7-3 against Zoo, which is a huge improvement on my Nationals record of 2-4.

Getting these results has involved some changes to the deck I played at the GPT, though.

To begin with, 10 disruption cards is simply too many (4 FoW, 4 Remand, 2 Clique). While the deck works fine like that with the Hunting Pack kill, I was losing goldfishing games where I restricted myself to the Brain Freeze win. I'd have crazy runs of bad luck, like chaining three Meditates together and drawing nothing but lands and disruption.

When I looked at other storm decks, they typically run 6-8 disruption slots in the main deck, which is on par with what classic Solidarity runs, so I cut two Remand as I had been drawing into it far more often than I liked. Remand is randomly broken, but often just clogs up your hand because aggro has dropped enough early threats that it's meaningless, or because you need to cast your dig spells instead.

I put two FoI back into the main deck, and my goldfishing became rock solid again. Even when not being triggered with Brain Freeze, the flashback helps smooth over those bad Meditates and provide a little extra card advantage.

It also strengthened my Wishes, as I'm sometimes left with Cunning Wish as my only draw spell. Wish for Meditate is expensive and risky, but sometimes you just don't have the mana for BSZ (my rule is that BSZ for less than 8 is not worth it, and you need to keep at least 6 mana open to allow for some extra dig to find the untap; so a minimum of 20 mana). Having FoI in the deck allows for a Cunning Wish into a Brain Freeze, which is useful in those circumstances.

Clique continues to perform, even in the aggro matchup, which surprised me. Zoo typically wins on turn four. If we are on the play, that means we can go off with four lands, but if they are on the play we have to go off on three. With some Hunting Pack hands this is possible, but Clique offers another out; not only does it block their biggest attacker (or Teag/Cannonist), usually buying you the extra turn you need, but it also strips away the burn that they probably intended to finish you off with. If you are out of burn range, cycle away that dead FoW. A solid card.

[nayon]

My problem has always been the decks that have disruption and aggressive elements all in one, like BUG. They can always refuel themselves and they usually have 1 Goyf and infinite counterspells and/or discard. I have a very hard time dealing with decks like that.

[GoldenCid]

; if you can't reliably beat Zoo, you simply shouldn't bother showing up to the tournament. This is indeed true. I think that zoo (big guys + strong damage) is one of the worst match ups we have. Besides, snap / clique or hunting pack build, maybe Blue elemental blast, Hybernation could help us as well as Dismember could but the 4 lifes coust makes me shiver against zoo.



; I'd have crazy runs of bad luck, like chaining three Meditates together and drawing nothing but lands and disruption.

Well, i don't feel alone in the world anymore. How often do you get a sequence like this?




; Clique continues to perform, even in the aggro matchup, which surprised me. Zoo typically wins on turn four. If we are on the play, that means we can go off with four lands, but if they are on the play we have to go off on three. With some Hunting Pack hands this is possible, but Clique offers another out; not only does it block their biggest attacker (or Teag/Cannonist), usually buying you the extra turn you need, but it also strips away the burn that they probably intended to finish you off with. If you are out of burn range, cycle away that dead FoW. A solid card.

Clique + snap build is a way i'm trying to improve the hard MU the deck has. I feel confatble with both cards because you can delay you oppo at the same time you can snap you clique during combo or if your oppo has no creature stuff. Here's my list for advice and reference:

// Lands
12 [4E] Island (1)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
3 [TE] Meditate
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
2 [US] Turnabout
3 [RAV] Remand
4 [LG] Reset
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [FE] High Tide (2)
2 [JU] Flash of Insight
3 [IN] Opt
4 [VI] Impulse
2 [UL] Snap

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [FE] High Tide (2)
SB: 1 [UL] Snap
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [OD] Words of Wisdom
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [8E] Hibernation
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

T.you!

[alastair]

Clique + snap build is a way i'm trying to improve the hard MU the deck has.

I love Clique from NO builds, but can't see him being better than Snapcaster in Solidarity. Granted he trades with nacatl, offers disruption against combo, draw off a dead card; but the ability to buyback Reset, Meditate, etc just seams stonger.

What am I missing with Clique?

[GoldenCid]

I love Clique from NO builds, but can't see him being better than Snapcaster in Solidarity. Granted he trades with nacatl, offers disruption against combo, draw off a dead card; but the ability to buyback Reset, Meditate, etc just seams stonger.

What am I missing with Clique?

Indeed, Snapcaster is great! But i feel like he's a kind of "Twincast". I mean, he's huge for a combo version, i'm not sure it it keeps the philosophy of the deck: Delay as much as possible and then go off. Off course, he can chumpblock or retrieve a counter, but that's my point of view about him.

[Zinch]

I think you are not 'tested (enough) Snapcaster Mage. It realy improves consistency. A lot.

This is the maindeck I'm playing with:

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 High Tide
3 Snap
4 Reset
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Remand
4 Force of Will
3 Opt
4 Brainstorm
2 Peer Through Depths
4 Impulse

10 Fetchlands
9 Islands


And the Sideboard (I've not tested it):


2 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Rebuild
1 Snap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Fluterstorm
2 Wipe Away
1 Vendilion Clique


I really like this main deck. It's very consistent without losing speed (comparing to other Solidarity builds). The 2 Brain Freeze's on the SB are to side one in against blue and white decks (against Nevermore naming cunning wish). But, as I said, I didn't tested extensively the SB. Any Card choice I'm missing here?

On a pair of weeks I'm attending a medium sized tournament. I'll report it back

[Vacrix]

@Zinch

With the 'Snap Engine' I think we can safely assume that Intuition should be included at least as a 1'of in the sideboard. Its simply too good to overlook. As I mentioned earlier it creates a draw independent decking situation.

I didn't realize we could Cunning Wish for Flash Creatures. Is that legal? Because that opens up all sorts of avenues that we haven't fully explored yet; flash creatures. I looked up a few to stimulate some discussion and found this:

Shimmer Myr 3
Artifact - Myr
Flash
You may cast artifact cards as though they had flash.
2/2

Imagine what Solidarity could do with one Shimmer Myr in the board; a drawn Candelabra during the combo turn makes (2U) Cunning Wish + (1) Candelabra into a virtual (3U) Turnabout and then every Candelabra after that is a 1 mana untapper, and it can be played early before the combo turn. I'd say its a better turn one then Brainstorm actually because you want to save those for a fetch or Impulse. It could smooth out the deck a little bit and make it far more deadly because you could combo on your own turn with Snapcasters and Snaps, or you could Cunning Wish --> Intuition to be draw independent. Also, I'm thinking that if Cunning Wish --> Intuition can actually be a threat in a deck like this then we ought to run more Meditates in the maindeck and that ups the business spell count to 8.

Candelabra and post-board Tangle looks really sexy because we can play Candelabras and lands while enjoying fewer attack phases. Besides, with Candelabras and Snaps we can play on like 3 lands pretty easily because after we have played a few Candelabras, even after a wasted Tropical Island, Double Candelabra goes all the way with High Tide + [Snapcaster] = or High Tide + [Reset]

[Hopo]

I didn't realize we could Cunning Wish for Flash Creatures. Is that legal?

What part of "choose an instant card" is confusing you?

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I didn't realize we could Cunning Wish for Flash Creatures.

You cant wish for flash creatures. And even if you could, there is no way shimmer myr is worth it.
As for snapcaster, I think its being severely overestimated. Turning on the opponents removal is terrible and besides that, against more controlling decks, a swords or such on our snap is a counterspell. Thats absolutely terrible and can result in needless losses. Personally im testing a list with 2 trops and postboard moment's peace and have had huge success. We still crush control as always and the combo of hunting pack and fogs give us a hell of a game against fast aggro.

[Silent Requiem]

Some thoughts on the Zoo matchup:

Bad hands aside, Zoo will kill you on their turn 4. If you are on the play, you can try and race. If you are on the draw, you need to have an opening hand that can win on turn 3, or a hand with disruption for one or more of their key elements. These elements for a traditional build are turn 1 Nacatl and Gaddock Teag, and for a Snap Tide build are turn 1 Nacatl and instant speed removal (Bolt or Swords).

I've tried running Snap over Turnabout, but have not liked it. What I will try tonight is running Snap over Remand; no loss of untap power, but I ditch a fairly useless card on the draw. It might even make the build faster.

Blue Elemental blast is weak, because it does not actually hit the cards we care about - Teag, Nacatl and (after the board) Cannonist. I admit that I have not tried Tangle yet, because I hate opening myself to Wasteland (although that's not an issue against Zoo), but given how easy I find it to find my Tropical with eight fetches, I may try it (or Moment's Peace).

I really want to move away from testing Zoo, but I recognise it as a real weakness, and I don't want to leave a very common matchup unfinished. That said, Reanimator, Top and Merfolk are all going to need attention too.

[Zinch]

@Vacrix:

No, you can't Cunning Wish for cratures with flash (look at the difference with Mystical Teachings).

The vendilion on the SB is for siding it against combo decks and blue decks (without counterbalance), but the 2 slots of the vendilions I'm not sure about, I'm testing them. I'm thinking in trying 1 Repeal main and someting else (like an intuition) on the SB

[Kanti]

@Silent:

I think you are making a mistake in cutting Remands. Sure they sometimes suck, but at other times they are the bomb. Just reading over you game notes of the GPT I can spot out a couple of times Remand saved your ass (You Remanded a Canonist against Affinity that saved you, and you Remanding a Regal Force on t2 vs Elves, which probably saved you). I think they might help you Zoo match-up as well.

With that said I think Clique is AWESOME tech. I doubt it's usefulness, but it seems much better than keeping like Cryptic Command in this meta. It just seems that it will get raced by Goyfs in any Ugx Aggro-Control deck, and get raced by Merfolk.

4 Wishes is also awesome, and something I think this deck might need. This is especially true if you run Pack. (And there's like no reason not to run Pack. The benefits of it's speed outweigh getting hit by Waste)

I'm running the U/g list with x4 Remand and x4 Force as protection and am loving it. It feels weird playing this deck after playing so long with TES. I hope you bring this deck to the GP and whoop some serious ass.

Edit: You should try running a split of Grips and Wipe Aways. Wipe Away is soooooo good vs hate bears. I also miss the 2nd Brain Freeze maindeck. If you do run two in the main deck you woudn't need to run one in the side. I made a split between Brain and Snap since you can flashback Brain to get load of storm.

Here is the list I'm testing with:

10 Islands
8 Fetchland
1 Tropical Island

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
1 Brain Freeze
1 Snapcaster Mage

Sideboard:
1 BSZ
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Rebuild
2 Echoing Truth
3 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Hunting Pack
3 Surgical Extraction

[Silent Requiem]

Even decks with overpowered draw engines like Ad Nauseam run only 6-8 maindeck disruption spells. In testing, I've found that Solidarity can reasonably handle 8 disruption elements, but more than that is starting to push the limits.

Given the fact that four of my disruption slots will go to FoW, it's a question of what is best put in the other four slots. Remand is a strong contender, as it's great against every deck on the play. On the draw, however, it's actually quite slow. That's alright against control decks and combo decks that are having to pick their way through your other disruption or sculpt their hand. But it's not exactly great, and it's absolutely dire against aggro. With a good hand, Zoo does not actually need to cast anything after turn two in order to win on turn four. Neither does Goblins.

For this reason, I am currently splitting my final four disruption slots between Clique and Remand. Against aggro, Clique is simply removal, while it's disruption and a clock against combo and control. In truth, Clique is strongest post board, when all the creature removal is gone, but I currently lack the space in my sideboard to take Clique out of the maindeck.

I've been testing Tangle, and I really like it against Zoo. With 8 fetches, I've only once failed to find my Tropical by turn three, and you can often chain one Tangle into another. It's not perfect, as it only buys you 1.5 turns rather than 2, but it helps a great deal. Currently, I'm boarding in 3 Tangle and taking out 1 Brain Freeze (so none in the main deck) and 2 Remand (meaning none in the maindeck). This leaves me Clique as removal for hate bears, which takes some of the pressure off my Wishes.

Currently, my sideboard looks like this:

1 BSZ
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hunting Pack
2 Krosan Grip
3 Flusterstorm
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Surgical Extraction

The way I see it, I get a wishboard and then three matches get a sideboard. Currently, I'm boarding for Reanimator/Dredge, Countertop and Combo/Control. I need to make room for my aggro board, and the cards dedicated to Countertop are the narrowest, so I'll probably drop two Grip and something else for three Tangle.

I'm toying with removing Rebuild, but I sometimes side it in where I expect Cannonists (I can still wish for Echoing Truth). I also rarely wish for Turnabout because it is so mana intensive, so that could possibly go.

I'd love to squeeze Snap in there, because I find that bouncing a hatebear before going off (such as Meddling Mage or Cannonist) is very mana intensive, whereas Snap makes the whole process fairly painless. I still feel I ought to have something for Counterbalance, though, even if it's just a single Wipeaway.

[Kanti]

Turnabout might be able to get swapped for Snap. Samish effect but Snap counts as an extra bounce. Run a second BS main or a Snapcaster so you can cut the BS in the board. Still there are games that you eot Wish for a Turnabout, untap, draw, and combo off next turn.

Rebuild is pretty sweet, I woudn't take it out. It's not high wished for, but when I do wish for it it's usually a blow out.

Taking out a Grip for Wipe Away also gives you more bounce.

What do you think of running x1 Snap x1 Brain? My fear is not being able to do mini Brain Freeze's. Still... flashback anything sounds fucking amazing. And it blocks.

Freeze is stronger in hand vs Storm combo though, and double Freeze is good vs CB-Top decks. Oh the drama.

[Silent Requiem]

I've been wondering about dropping down to 6 disruption in the maindeck (4 FoW and 2 Remand), bringing in the 4th Turnabout/Snap and Meditate from the board. This would make my game 1 deck very, very consistent, and it would let me put my Cliques in the sideboard.

It would then be a matter of simply bringing in whatever added disruption I wanted in games 2 & 3.

[Kanti]

What do you think of running Flusterstorm main? I am always siding it in vs blue decks (I usually go -1 Opt, -1 Impulse, -1 Remand if I am on the draw, -2 Opt -1 Impulse if I am on the play)

I also hate Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Hate, hate, hate that guy. I rather have them resolve a Natural Order honestly.

Edit: I actually am thinking about it more and more and Rebuild sucks. No one plays Chalice anymore, or Trinisphere, or anything that harmful really. I'd put a second Truth in it's place. This way vs Zoo you can go +2 Echoing Truth +1 Wipeaway to deal with their hate-bears.

I also went up to 4 Flusterstorms in my sideboard. That card is crazy. It's the best card vs storm and Tempo decks.

[Silent Requiem]

Anyone have any suggestions for stopping Reanimator? I've tried boarding in 4 Flusterstorm and 2 Surgical Extraction, but they simply have too many threats. I'm losing nearly every match.

While I'm loath to devote 4 slots to Leyline of the Void, I don't think it's possible to simply ignore the Reanimator matchup if I have any expectation of making day 2 at Amsterdam.

[cjva]

Anyone have any suggestions for stopping Reanimator? I've tried boarding in 4 Flusterstorm and 2 Surgical Extraction, but they simply have too many threats. I'm losing nearly every match.

While I'm loath to devote 4 slots to Leyline of the Void, I don't think it's possible to simply ignore the Reanimator matchup if I have any expectation of making day 2 at Amsterdam.

I played solidarity at GP Madrid and actually dont think solidarity have a better shot on making day two on this GP. if the goal is to make day two with a high tide list I think any of the lists playing Time Spiral is the Way to go.

personally I Will most like hope on the belcher glasscannon to give me a day two spot.

Edit: and some constructive words. I would have a couple of extractions in the sb like you mentioned. In the past twincast gave me a couple of wins against reanimator. with that Said, the best we can ever hope for is probably a 30/70 mu.

[Kanti]

Back to the gallows with you! If we wanted to play Spiral Tide we would be posting in the Spiral Tide thread. Solidarity, though a bit outdated, is still a decent choice. I'd go as far as to say that it's in a better position now (the Counterbalance era is gone, as is the Mental Misstep one) than it's been in for a while. Snapcaster Mage can be a beating against this deck but he's not that bad. As long as tempo-decks don't go in the direction of Team America it's alright.

Leylines looks alright versus Reanimator but you have to mull into them. Not to mention every Leyline drawn after your starting hand is a dead draw.

They are also probably bringing in some Echoing Truths, which is especially strong vs Leyline, and some Show and Tells (can't do shit but Force or Fluster this one).

I would go with 3 Macabres/1 Extraction to deal with reanimator. Macabre is hit by Stifle and Needle which sucks but it's still pretty good, as it dodges all of their counter-magic. Extraction is randomly good when wished for (I've killed ANT by responding to his combo with a mini-brainfreeze that hit Tendrils, then wishing for Extraction to take away his win-con. I've also wished for Extraction vs Uw Stoneforge today to take out a Force of Will (My opponent only had Spell Snares in hand and I had High Tide+Turnabout+combo in hand). Basically being able to wish for Extraction is pretty awesome.

This is the sb I'm running:
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Hunting Pack
1 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
3 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Faerie Macabre

I don't think Brain Freeze is necessary in the sideboard if you run 2 of them main-deck.

I also cut Rebuild I was never wishing for it. Echoing Truth is pretty much just as good as it, and it has the added benefit of being sided in with Wipe Away vs decks with hate-bears. I just don't see myself running into many Trinisphere/Chalices.

Don't play Clique though : (. Remand is crazy. You can do so many kills vs blue decks just by casting a bunch of rituals and Brain Freeze>Remanding into a million. That type of kill is really hard to counter as by the time you are going for it you've made a good number of land drops and can just puke every spell out of your hand Belcher style.

Have you also considered cutting a fetchland for another basic? I've done it and so far I can't say I've had trouble finding my Tropical. Like ever. I just hate running into the Stifle/Spell Snare/Spell Pierce tempo decks that just lock me out of mana.

[lebarion]

Anyone have any suggestions for stopping Reanimator? I've tried boarding in 4 Flusterstorm and 2 Surgical Extraction, but they simply have too many threats. I'm losing nearly every match.

While I'm loath to devote 4 slots to Leyline of the Void, I don't think it's possible to simply ignore the Reanimator matchup if I have any expectation of making day 2 at Amsterdam.

I haven't tried it yet, but I think a number of Bribery in the sideboard could be a good option against reanimator. It's a sorcery, I know, but costing 3UU means you can simply High Tide, Turnabout and Bribery in your own turn with ionly 3 islands.
It is a little narrow, but can help against Hive Mind and Sneak'n Show, too, and maybe Dredge.

[Kanti]

Now that I think about it, why aren't we doing the best thing we can possibly can and diversifying graveyard hate? You are bound to face Dredge, and Macabre just freaking sucks vs Dredge. It's better than not having a gy hate spell, but it is not good enough.

Karakas seems like super awesome tech vs Reanimator. I don't know if it would work out in practice though. Still, passed the Extraction I woudn't be set on sb answers. You don't want to die to a wall of Cabal Therapies at the GP.

I was thinking about something like this:

0-1 Faerie Macabre/Karakas/Phantasmal Image
1-2 Surgical Extraction
1-2 Tormod's Crypt
0-1 Relic of Progenitus

Edit: Another piece anti-Reanimator tech could be Phantasmal Image. I'd just run gy hate though, as it hits Dredge. x2 Crypt might be better than the Relic as Reanimator can be quit fast, and getting a Relic Dazed is just dumb.

I'd also side in some bounce vs Reanimator. Atleast x1 Wipe Away and x1 Echoing Truth

[I am the brainwasher]

@How to beat Reanimator:

The tech is really that simple: Curfew/Ravenous Trap

Doesnt eat up much sb-space and is nuts in the 4-wish builds. You could also run Slaughter Pact against Iona, which I personally dislike.

I really wouldnt give up more Slots than these two for a specific MU and IMO those are definetly enough. Normally you are able to buy yourself enough time with Curfew or Trap or drawing counters outta them to go off in the next turns.
I played both Curfew and Ravenous Trap because those are the most flexible and also work against Dredge and S&T/Emrakul-Crap. and could also be useful against 1-st turn Lackey and all that Jazz.
Hope this helps you out, greetings.