How bad is white?

[brattin]

Which would you rather play with in Legacy as it stands now:

A) Ancestral Recall

or

B) a white instant, costing WW, target player draws five cards?

I'd rather play the blue card. Am I stupid?


EDIT: This should probably be in format discussion, shouldn't it? Anyone wanna move it for me?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Are you high?

[Getsickanddie]

Which would you rather play with in Legacy as it stands now:

A) Ancestral Recall

or

B) a white sorcery, costing WW, target player draws five cards?

I'd rather play the blue card. Am I stupid?


EDIT: This should probably be in format discussion, shouldn't it? Anyone wanna move it for me?

ummm, both?

[Jaynel]

It's terrible. I don't understand the whole Ancestral recall business though.

[KillemallCFH]

Are you high?

[brattin]

I was talking with my roommates about how the color of a card dramatically affects its play value. My roommate posed the question, and I thought "white is so bad I'd rather play Ancestral." My other roommates proceeded to ask me if I was high, so I thought I'd get the Source's opinion.

I think it's a legitimate question.

Clearly blue Ancestral is better than white Ancestral. I think it's also clear that Ancestral is better than "WW, instant: target player draws 4." So how about 5?

[socialite]

Am I stupid?

Yes.

[Mordel]

I am, so I picked white...maybe I'll regret it later, but right now I am crazy-stoked on $keg$tax, which has absolutely no use for AR and even if it was in the format, I would still be playing said deck.

here is where me being high comes in though: if you put gush instead of AR, I would be clicking gush because that means that I could play my old stasis deck again. No gush killed it.

[bigbear102]

White decks don't do insanely crazy good things with 5 cards in hand. Blue decks can do insanely crazy good things with 3 cards instantly, especially if unrestricted. Blue as a color is better than white, so WW is always worse. Also being 2 mana hurts a bit. I think a better question that could get the same information would be:

U: Target player draws 2 cards
or
W: Target player draws 3 cards

[Phoenix Ignition]

White decks don't do insanely crazy good things with 5 cards in hand. Blue decks can do insanely crazy good things with 3 cards instantly, especially if unrestricted. Blue as a color is better than white, so WW is always worse. Also being 2 mana hurts a bit. I think a better question that could get the same information would be:

U: Target player draws 2 cards
or
W: Target player draws 3 cards

Bad change, obviously the extra card is worth a splash in white, I doubt anyone would argue that.

[Bryant Cook]

White has Orim's Chant and... Nothing else. I'd play the WW draw 5 in TES!

[J.V.]

White has Orim's Chant and... Nothing else.
Swords to Plowshares.

[Bryant Cook]

Swords to Plowshares.

Nothing else.

[AngryTroll]

I almost voted before I read the poll explanation...I thought it was, "How bad is white" and the options were "Ancestral Recall" vs "A White Card".

The white card would certainly be interesting. If it cost 1W, then it would be easy to splash into everything already running Swords, and then you'd have an interesting question. If that was the question...I'm not sure how I'd vote. Both.

[Aggro_zombies]

When I saw the thread title, I thought it was a thread about affirmative action. With that logic, the white card would be better as a black card because then you'd have to include it in your decks to meet your color diversity quotas.

:frown:

[frogboy]

I would obviously play the white card, but you obviously play it in your blue deck.

[FoolofaTook]

White is under-explored at the moment, basically because it *was* much weaker than the Legacy meta as a whole until recently, and also because people see it as primarily a splash color more than anything else.

It's still not a powerhouse, but there should be more effort made to find solid mono-white decks with artifacts at this point. Death and Taxes is a good deck, if not top tier certainly very solid and capable of creating problems for the majority of top tier decks in the meta.

The other thing that seems to be true is that the white-black axis hasn't been re-explored much recently. Adding Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy to a white creature based theme is an idea that has a lot of merit, since it begins to resolve one of the main weaknesses in mono-white - which is vulnerability to storm combo.

[Aggro_zombies]

The other thing that seems to be true is that the white-black axis hasn't been re-explored much recently. Adding Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy to a white creature based theme is an idea that has a lot of merit, since it begins to resolve one of the main weaknesses in mono-white - which is vulnerability to storm combo.
This sounds like Homebrew, which is a terrible deck with access to arguably better creatures (guys with useful abilities and evasion even though they're smaller on average). Suicide Black or the splash variants like Eva Green don't use white because black creatures are better, and there are stronger splash options.

[FoolofaTook]

This sounds like Homebrew, which is a terrible deck with access to arguably better creatures (guys with useful abilities and evasion even though they're smaller on average). Suicide Black or the splash variants like Eva Green don't use white because black creatures are better, and there are stronger splash options.

I don't know Homebrew so I can't comment on that deck. The idea that I think would be interesting would be a white control deck with 15-18 creatures, splashing black just for Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy and maybe Vindicate as a supplement to Swords to Plowshares. The creatures could actually be fairly vanilla white creatures, pardon the pun, with Savannah Lions and Figure of Destiny as the 1 drops and Jotun Grunt and Serra Avenger as the two drops. White has access to enough interesting creatures in the 3cc, 4cc and 5cc range that I think it wouldn't be hard to fill out the 4 spots or so remaining in the creature roster. And Elspeth and Ajani both create interesting problems for the opponent, assuming they're not invalidated by having the game go over in the first few turns to combo.

Note that it'd be really easy to have all but one land (a basic swamp) provide white mana, assuming that you were willing to play 8 to 10 fetches - which I think this kind of deck might well want to do. I don't think the deck would be tier 1 but I think it would create a problem for the opposition in any meta it showed up in. I've played against turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 drop a second land and Cabal Therapy and then drop a cheap creature and therapy again if the situation warrants and there are very few decks that just smile and keep on rolling when that happens.

[morgan_coke]

There was a time when Green was the worst color in Legacy, then it was black, and now it's white. It'll rotate again. White's been getting some good cards lately, stuff like Ethersworn Canonist comes to mind. Plus Death and Taxes is only a few cards away from making the shift from - really annoying deck - to really good deck.

Also, white has Slide, so it can't be that bad of a color.

[Hummingbird TG]

The other thing that seems to be true is that the white-black axis hasn't been re-explored much recently. Adding Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy to a white creature based theme is an idea that has a lot of merit, since it begins to resolve one of the main weaknesses in mono-white - which is vulnerability to storm combo.

You forget the other main weakness, which is arguably far more important: Getting all your creatures outclassed by Tarmogoyf. And raped by Counterbalance. (except Exalted Angel, but she requires 4 mana sources to work). Oh, add to that that White has terrible search and draw. There. Into perspective.

[matelml]

Both in a UW deck ofcourse. Together with G/B or both.

[Taurelin]

White has Orim's Chant.


Swords to Plowshares.

Indeed. + Armageddon, Eternal Dragon, Hoofprints of the Stag, Humility, Jötun Grunt, Moat, Oblivion Ring, Solitary Confinement, Wrath of God



You forget the other main weakness, which is arguably far more important: Getting all your creatures outclassed by Tarmogoyf.

Again: Humility, StoP, Obl. Ring, Grunt, Wrath...



White has terrible search...

Enlightened Tutor?


...and draw.

So has green, red, almost every color apart from blue (only exception: Confi).


Maybe I'm colourblind...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ahem? (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6188)

[kicks_422]

But most of the white cards are utility cards at best. White isn't a great main color, but it's a great color to splash for.

[Mirrislegend]

I would obviously play the white card, but you obviously play it in your blue deck.

QFT. Such raw, cheap card advantage could not possibly fly under the radar. WW for draw 5 wouldn't put white back on the radar as a playable color, it would just cause a few decks to splash a little into white (or splash more into white, if it already had some)

[Hummingbird TG]

Again: Humility, StoP, Obl. Ring, Grunt, Wrath...

Enlightened Tutor?

He was talking about a WB weenie deck. Tons of creatures, some discard. Enlightened Tutor fetches nothing there. Besides, Enlightened Tutor is terribly slow, too (except in Control, perhaps). Also, in the deck he suggested, out of the above listed cards, only StoP and Grunt fit...And almost every Tarmogoyf deck has infinitely many ways to protect their Goyfs (Grunts are as easy to remove as Goyfs, therefore, if not more; seeing as he isn't playing blue.)


So has green, red, almost every color apart from blue (only exception: Confi).

How often do you see green or red as the main color of a DTB? Oh, wait, Goblins. Um, Ringleader. Aggro Loam? LftL. (Survival does of course have Genesis, but if Survival is down you probably win anyway.) Of course, not that it's impossible to have a DtB or good deck without strong draw/search, but the alternative is speed and/or sheer power. None of which White coincidentally happens to possess.

[Skeggi]

White a bad colour... That's a dumb statement. There are so many good decks (and DTB's) with white as a very important colour. Take The Mighty Quinn for instance, not a DTB now, but if that WW card ever comes out, it will be for sure. Same goes with Rabid Wombat and Stax. Why wouldn't UW Landstill not play this card? It obviously outrocks Standstill...

So, yeah...are you high?

[Shugyosha]

A) Ancestral Recall

or

B) a white instant, costing WW, target player draws five cards?


B) because Ancestral Recall is banned, anyone?

[Hummingbird TG]

White a bad colour... That's a dumb statement. There are so many good decks (and DTB's) with white as a very important colour. Take The Mighty Quinn for instance, not a DTB now, but if that WW card ever comes out, it will be for sure. Same goes with Rabid Wombat and Stax. Why wouldn't UW Landstill not play this card? It obviously outrocks Standstill...

So, yeah...are you high?

1. You can't just say white's a good color just because an as-yet unprinted (and probably will never be printed) card is good. In fact, if it were printed it would probably in itself make white good. But that is a moot argument.

2. I'm not saying white is bad, and should never be run, per se. I'm saying it is probably the worst color in Legacy, and this statement is relative to the strengths of the other Colors present; and I'm also saying that white has several fundamental weaknesses in itself, which causes the decks you listed to not be top contenders (except for UW Landstill, but it is what it is more for the blue than for the white).

3. I'm also just saying that white is not a good main color, not that it is always poor (in combination with other colors), but in itself poor, and that the BW deck suggested by FoolofaTook is a poor choice.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You have yet to address the Mighty Quinn brokeness.

[socialite]

B) because Ancestral Recall is banned, anyone?

While I agree to a sense the same can be said for A) because B) doesn't even exist. Clearly hypothetical statements are far above you.

As far as White being a bad color Im more inclined to say Green and White are currently fighting for that position. Nonetheless both make extremely good splash colors.

[FoolofaTook]

You forget the other main weakness, which is arguably far more important: Getting all your creatures outclassed by Tarmogoyf. And raped by Counterbalance. (except Exalted Angel, but she requires 4 mana sources to work). Oh, add to that that White has terrible search and draw. There. Into perspective.

4x Swords to Plowshares and 3x Vindicate are sufficient answers for a 4-of creature regardless of how powerful it is. Having 4x Thoughtseize to also possibly take it away early probably makes Goyf one of the power cards I wouldn't be that worried about.

Point taken on Counterbalance, but that's a problem for any deck that uses a normal casting cost curve at this point. Vindicate or Engineered Explosives and pray, unless you're playing counters or planning to win in the first three turns that's pretty much the situation for any deck these days.

The search and draw is what would keep this from being a tier 1 deck. Really only blue has the necessary search and draw to be extremely consistent. Everybody else is mulliganing like hell to find what they need on turn 1. This is even true for Goblins and Dragon Stompy, two themes that you'd think could just pick up and go, but often can't.

[spirit of the wretch]

Are you high?

[FoolofaTook]

Plus Death and Taxes is only a few cards away from making the shift from - really annoying deck - to really good deck.

This is what I think also. White weenie plus control will be a very strong deck when it becomes feasible. It's not there just yet but with the creatures they are printing in white lately it's chances are gettng better and better.

[Hanni]

The search and draw is what would keep this from being a tier 1 deck. Really only blue has the necessary search and draw to be extremely consistent. Everybody else is mulliganing like hell to find what they need on turn 1. This is even true for Goblins and Dragon Stompy, two themes that you'd think could just pick up and go, but often can't.

Top and Confidant aren't good enough for you?

WW/b

20

18
4 Mother of Runes
4 Savannah Lions
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant

22
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Something like that, maybe?

[emidln]

Nothing else.

Almost this. You and I both know we've cast Abeyance before. Serenity is also playable.

[Bryant Cook]

Almost this. You and I both know we've cast Abeyance before. Serenity is also playable.

Touche', I forgot about Neo-Chant. Anwar knows about Abeyance into LED for the win.

[GreenOne]

Ancestral is abviously better because the white one is easily countered by Spell Snare. Also, drawing 5 cards is likely to make you discard and deck yourself more often.

[FoolofaTook]

Top and Confidant aren't good enough for you?

WW/b

20

18
4 Mother of Runes
4 Savannah Lions
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant

22
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Something like that, maybe?

You need Engineered Explosives for tokens and Counterbalance. Sensei's Divining Top is an interesting question, especially playing 8-10 fetches and just 3 Scrublands and a basic swamp as the black mana, there could be a lot of opportunity to search there. This, BTW, with the addition of Dark Confidant is starting to lean over the dangerous edge of being a full two color instead of splashing black into a white weenie shell. 15 black spells starts looking like a weaker version of Sui Black, even though the white count is a lot higher.

Maybe this:

4x Figure of Destiny
4x Savannah Lions
4x Dark Confidant
3x Jotun Grunt
2x Serra Avenger

2x Ajani Goldmane/Elspeth Knight-Errant
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
2x Engineered Explosives

4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal therapy

4x Flooded Strand
3x Windswept Heath
3x Polluted Delta

3x Scrubland
1x Swamp
5x Plains

[Mayk0l]

Ancestral is abviously better because the white one is easily countered by Spell Snare. Also, drawing 5 cards is likely to make you discard and deck yourself more often.


Lol
Yes, and Necropotence sucks too, because it makes you discard down to seven. And that sucks.. having to discard down to seven. At the end of turn if you've got nine in your grip, you're handing out free Esper Charms!
That sucks. Couldn't agree more.


On the Ancestral discussion. I don't get it. You're thinking of one of blue's most powerful, most befittingly blue abilities, on a potential white card. Of course it's worse in white than in blue. White creatures are better than blue creatures. Blue doesn't get Serra Avengers

[Tosh]

Blue doesn't get Serra Avengers

You're right... Blue just gets Morphling.

[Nydaeli]

WW for draw 5 wouldn't put white back on the radar as a playable color, it would just cause a few decks to splash a little into white (or splash more into white, if it already had some)

No, it would cause basically every deck to splash white for four copies. The proposed card is stupid broken and a terrible example for a general discussion of white's merits.

There are basically three classes of decks that use White:
1) Control decks that run a heavy white component. (UWx Landstill, Armageddon Stax, Quinn)
2) Control and aggro-control decks that run a small white splash for STP. (Threshold, The Rock, It's the Fear)
3) Combo decks that run a small white splash for Chant. (TES, FT, ANT)

2) and 3) are pretty much anomalous - they're solely due to the handful of broken cards that White has received over the years. 1) pretty much proves that white is a viable color outside of these few cards, however.

[Shugyosha]

While I agree to a sense the same can be said for A) because B) doesn't even exist. Clearly hypothetical statements are far above you.

Its called subtle criticism. Clearly...

its a flawed statement. Both cards are/would be banned in Legacy so they would have no impact and white is not the color to draw cards. The white card also costs one colored mana more and has a worse cards to mana ratio.

[cloudstrife7]

This is what I think also. White weenie plus control will be a very strong deck when it becomes feasible. It's not there just yet but with the creatures they are printing in white lately it's chances are gettng better and better.

I want so badly to agree with this. There are so many white fish-weenie creatures that I love: True believer, Samurai of the pale curtain, Knight of the white orchid, Ethersworn Canonist, Glowrider, Jotun Grunt, Serra avenger, spectral lynx, knight of meadowgrain, knight of the holy nimbus... it goes on forever.
The problem is that all of these creatures are at this magical power level where they are good enough to be support cards in a solid deck, but not good enough to carry one. You stick them all together and you get something that can hang around for a while in loads of given matchups, but its like playing affinity when you don't draw ravager, or any aggro deck when you don't draw Goyf, you need something just one tiny notch higher in power level, and it never quite materializes. I feel that wizards has a power level sweet spot for a signature white weenie to define a standard archetype, and they aren't planning on exceeding it.

[brattin]

No, it would cause basically every deck to splash white for four copies.
I'm not sure I agree. It is clearly broken, but I think there would still be good decks that didn't run it. I think a lot more decks would like to be able to run A.R.. Also, the question isn't "would you play this card"--it's "which card would you rather play".


The proposed card is stupid broken and a terrible example for a general discussion of white's merits.

Yeah, I guess I named the thread inappropriately. White isn't bad just because my broken card isn't as broken as A.R. It's pretty good as a splash in a bunch of decks, and as a major color in a few. I just think it's weird that the color of the card has SUCH an impact on making it not good.

I think an instant that cost UU and drew 5 would be better than A.R., but because WW makes you splash white so heavily, it isn't worth it.



There are basically three classes of decks that use White:
1) Control decks that run a heavy white component. (UWx Landstill, Armageddon Stax, Quinn)
2) Control and aggro-control decks that run a small white splash for STP. (Threshold, The Rock, It's the Fear)
3) Combo decks that run a small white splash for Chant. (TES, FT, ANT)

2) and 3) are pretty much anomalous - they're solely due to the handful of broken cards that White has received over the years. 1) pretty much proves that white is a viable color outside of these few cards, however.

Of these decks, the heavy-white ones would play the white card. I think Thresh (and the plethora of thresh-like decks) and ITF would rather play A.R.. Combo decks would probably rather play the white card.

On a different topic, I don't understand why so many people are asking if I'm high. Are you saying that the white card is obviously better, or that my question is stupid?

Thanks for all the responses!

[frogboy]

It is clearly broken, but I think there would still be good decks that didn't run it.

This is pretty much incorrect. This card is Tidings +1 for two. Have you ever actually resolved a Tidings? Do you know how hard it is to lose at that point?


Are you saying that the white card is obviously better

It's not even close.

I mean, yeah, it'll make random white decks better, but since pretty much every single deck would be playing four, those white decks aren't going to get better relative to the decks that people are playing now.

[Artowis]

I think an instant that cost UU and drew 5 would be better than A.R., but because WW makes you splash white so heavily, it isn't worth it.

You play in a format with Fetchlands and Duals. Do you realize how ridiculous a mana cost would have to be for it to be legitimately hard to splash? Well obviously you don't, so let's say you'd have to put on the drawback of 'Can only be cast off Basic Plains' for it to be a heavy splash.

But I mean WW - draw 5. The game is pretty much over if that resolves I've won a number of games against resolved Ancestral Recall before. Twice in the same game... much less so.

[Clark Kant]

I was under the impression that red is now the worst color in magic.

Yes, red has goblins, burn and REBs.

But both goblins and burn fell by the wayside thanks to stuff like Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker and Dreadnought.

And REBs aren't really maindeckable.

Atleast white has StP, Oblivion Ring and a crapload of silver bullets like Moat, Humility, Armageddon and Wrath of God.

There's a reason why most landstill, thresh and dreadstill builds splash white before they would even consider splashing red.

[Forbiddian]

I like how Red has always been known as "That color with the Red Elemental Blasts." There's enough blue in Magic that Red is actually decent largely on the back of REB. You guys remember Keeper back in like the '90s splashed Red for REBs and like Fire/Ice?

Clark, you missed Blood Moon, though, which is very strong.


I think that Red and White are both pretty bad, just everyone is used to Red being shitty and it's only fairly recently that white's power eroded. Back just a few years, UW Landstill was the face of Legacy. Tarmogoyf and Thoughtseize especially since then have made white look bad, but it's nowhere near bad enough that WW Draw 5 would be worse than Ancestral Recall.

As broken as Recall is, there's no way it's even a contest. Drawing 5 just puts the game away in a way that Ancestral Recall couldn't fathom. Recall is overpowered, but it doesn't let you literally piss cards away at a 1:2 ratio for the rest of the game just because you resolved it.

Two Ancestral Recalls = +4 Card Advantage.
1 WW Draw 5 = +4 Card Advantage.

The bottom line is that Misdirection would be a 4-of if they unbanned Recall or printed that ridiculous White card.

[frogboy]

UW Landstill was only really good because the blue cards decided to roll up with the white removal. The only really uniquely powerful white card that is played for it's own sake rather than as a removal or other general utility spell (i.e. random bears) is Decree of Justice.

[Clark Kant]

Yes pretty much every list would have to go...

4 FoW
4 Divert
4 Misdirection
4 Ancestral Recall
4 White Card

Half the deck space would go towards either resolving your Recall or preventing your opponent from resolving it.

[Forbiddian]

UW Landstill was only really good because the blue cards decided to roll up with the white removal. The only really uniquely powerful white card that is played for it's own sake rather than as a removal or other general utility spell (i.e. random bears) is Decree of Justice.

Interesting outlook. Maybe it's just cause I remember back to the days when Swords to Plowshares owned Fat Motis, but I think that Landstill would not have been effective without Swords.

Goblins was really prevalent back then (and Suicide Black saw some play). Cards like Terror, Snuff Out, Innocent Blood, or Pernicious Deed would not have kept the landstill archetype afloat after the banning of Mana Drain. Even after Naturalize got printed, which did a lot to balance the color wheel, I still didn't see any splash other than white to be a serious option.

I totally agree that Landstill was BLUE/white (and that's being generous toward the white), but Swords was definitely at the heart of the deck, and I don't think anything printed at the time would have been able to fit the role of getting back to board parity in time to resolve a Standstill.


But anyway, now White is probably the weakest card in Magic. Ironically the superior creatures have made control less reliant on great creature removal and more reliant on playing fatasses themselves.

[freakish777]

If both were legal, I'm fairly positive the decks with 4 ARs would win consistently over the decks with the 4 white cards (assuming you somehow had to actually choose, which you very well might with how fast the format would become). It doesn't really have to do with colors, it has to do with coming down on turn 1 vs turn 2.

The format would become

Combo:

4 AR
3 AdN
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 LED
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
etc


Aggro:

4 FoW
4 AR
4 Misdirection
4 Daze
4 Goyf
4 Duress (to avoid Seizing yourself in the mirror)
4 Brainstorm
etc


Control:

4 FoW
4 Misdirection
4 Counterspell
4 Duress
4 AR
4 draw 5
4 StP
3 DoJ
etc

You may not have time to cast a card that cost :w::w: in this hypothetical format as combo would be insane, and aggro/aggro control would be very difficult for the true control decks to beat.

The question to pose to your roommate is:

Which is better, Force Spike or Mana Tithe? Which is better, Disenchant or Naturalize? Which is better, Funeral Charm or Piracy Charm? Which is better, Stone Rain or Ice Storm? Which is better, Ancestral Recall or a white instant for :W: that says target player draws 3 cards (here it's clear you'd play both, but if you were restricted to "You may play the blue or the white but not both" then you'd likely answer "I'll play the blue one")? Etc, etc.

[frogboy]

f both were legal, I'm fairly positive the decks with 4 ARs would win consistently over the decks with the 4 white cards

This is irrelevant because decks would just play all eight.

[freakish777]

This is irrelevant because decks would just play all eight.


I disagree. The combo decks and aggro decks would want to actually play business spells at 2 mana (Goyf and Tutors for Tendrils) instead of more card drawing. I could see 4 AR and 2 or 3 of the white card in aggro and combo decks but not all 8. At some point you actually want to just kill the opponent instead of drawing more cards.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Drawing five cards isn't business to you?

You guys are terrible. Either card is broken in half. Manabases would bend over to play either. It's well worth putting yourself in Wasteland sight hairs to draw five fucking cards for two mana. Hell, that's an Impulse with double cheating measures attached, sans the game loss! Good times.

It doesn't matter since neither has a snowball's chance in Hell of being printed.

Also, regarding the color red, funnily enough the most played color in Legacy until the rise of Tarmogoyf and the printing of Thoughtseize/Ponder. Not just for Goblins, either; CRET Belcher, Loam, Survival, Zoo, Sligh and Dragon Stompy all had some amount of popularity. The format seems to have taken a sharp blue turn again, though.

[chokin]

If there was a card that was UU, Draw 5, that'd be nuts. WW not so much, since as others have said, white's a great splash, but as a main color, it just feels so bleh. I'm not saying it doesn't have the possibility of being great though. Hell, even a UU Draw 4 or 1UU Draw 4 would be awesome with no drawbacks.

How good would the card be as: RR? BB? GG?

I think burn decks would cream themselves if it was RR: Draw5. Black based combo would be everywhere. I could see some green players using the GG version especially if they ran like a Elf Staff combo.

[FoolofaTook]

I want so badly to agree with this. There are so many white fish-weenie creatures that I love: True believer, Samurai of the pale curtain, Knight of the white orchid, Ethersworn Canonist, Glowrider, Jotun Grunt, Serra avenger, spectral lynx, knight of meadowgrain, knight of the holy nimbus... it goes on forever.
The problem is that all of these creatures are at this magical power level where they are good enough to be support cards in a solid deck, but not good enough to carry one. You stick them all together and you get something that can hang around for a while in loads of given matchups, but its like playing affinity when you don't draw ravager, or any aggro deck when you don't draw Goyf, you need something just one tiny notch higher in power level, and it never quite materializes. I feel that wizards has a power level sweet spot for a signature white weenie to define a standard archetype, and they aren't planning on exceeding it.

It's going to be something simple, like a WW1 creature that's a 1/1 that lets you go get any white creature in your deck with a casting cost of two or less and put it in your hand, as a comes into play effect.

Tarmogoyf helped green become respectable, but mainly as a splash color. Survival of the Fittest, on the other hand, makes a deck with a fair amount of green in it pretty scary.

What white is missing is reasonable card advantage and selection. Sooner or later there's going to be a rough equivalent of Goblin Matron to fix that some.

[Hummingbird TG]

You need Engineered Explosives for tokens and Counterbalance. Sensei's Divining Top is an interesting question, especially playing 8-10 fetches and just 3 Scrublands and a basic swamp as the black mana, there could be a lot of opportunity to search there. This, BTW, with the addition of Dark Confidant is starting to lean over the dangerous edge of being a full two color instead of splashing black into a white weenie shell. 15 black spells starts looking like a weaker version of Sui Black, even though the white count is a lot higher.

Maybe this:

4x Figure of Destiny
4x Savannah Lions
4x Dark Confidant
3x Jotun Grunt
2x Serra Avenger

2x Ajani Goldmane/Elspeth Knight-Errant
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
2x Engineered Explosives

4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal therapy

4x Flooded Strand
3x Windswept Heath
3x Polluted Delta

3x Scrubland
1x Swamp
5x Plains

Is missing Exalted Angel. Seriously. If you're going to run 4ccs (which are already bad since they force you to run more mana, why not run the best?) Besides, you'll never cast a 4cc with 18 lands and no cantrips. 4 Tops are also too much.

[Mantis]

This discussion is terrible.

WW for 5 cards is insane, let's get it over with anyone who disagrees should probably go read a ton of Magic strategy articles to get a better grasp on the game if he/she seriously wants to compete.

Unless someone takes the time to make a standard in order for us to measure which colors is the best, the whole debate about colors is quite useless as well. If anyone is familiar with medical science (or literature); there has to be a standard by which we can catagorize the things we try to measure, in order to compare different results/viewpoints. If not, everyone is talking about something else and we end up with a bunch of people disagreeing with each other and nobody being right.

[ParkerLewis]

Unless someone takes the time to make a standard in order for us to measure which colors is the best, the whole debate about colors is quite useless as well. If anyone is familiar with medical science (or literature); there has to be a standard by which we can catagorize the things we try to measure, in order to compare different results/viewpoints. If not, everyone is talking about something else and we end up with a bunch of people disagreeing with each other and nobody being right.

"What is the Internet ?", for 2000 $.

[Mantis]

I'm sorry what do you mean?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If there was a card that was UU, Draw 5, that'd be nuts. WW not so much, since as others have said, white's a great splash, but as a main color, it just feels so bleh. I'm not saying it doesn't have the possibility of being great though. Hell, even a UU Draw 4 or 1UU Draw 4 would be awesome with no drawbacks.

How good would the card be as: RR? BB? GG?

I think burn decks would cream themselves if it was RR: Draw5. Black based combo would be everywhere. I could see some green players using the GG version especially if they ran like a Elf Staff combo.

This is like saying Skullclamp sucks because one toughness creatures aren't very good. Kind of missing the context.

Any color that had CC: Draw 5 would immediately become the best color in Magic. End of discussion. That includes Purple. If White didn't have a single other playable card, it still wouldn't matter because it would still be the best color in the format.

Seriously. You can mulligan to 4 to find it and still come out ahead. WTF, people. Can we stop discussing cards that would never, ever, ever be printed and it embarrasses me as a Legacy player that you all are debating about for multiple reasons?

[Mayk0l]

This is like saying Skullclamp sucks because one toughness creatures aren't very good. Kind of missing the context.

Any color that had CC: Draw 5 would immediately become the best color in Magic. End of discussion. That includes Purple. If White didn't have a single other playable card, it still wouldn't matter because it would still be the best color in the format.

Seriously. You can mulligan to 4 to find it and still come out ahead. WTF, people. Can we stop discussing cards that would never, ever, ever be printed and it embarrasses me as a Legacy player that you all are debating about for multiple reasons?


Wow, I actually agree with Jack.

Amen

[FoolofaTook]

Is missing Exalted Angel. Seriously. If you're going to run 4ccs (which are already bad since they force you to run more mana, why not run the best?) Besides, you'll never cast a 4cc with 18 lands and no cantrips. 4 Tops are also too much.

Not to split hairs but it's 19 lands, which might be a land short for the casting curve. There's an argument for Exalted Angel. Ajani Goldmane would be a classic finisher for a deck like this, either taking a couple of creatures up the power curve over the first few turns after he lands or alternately fueling a "don't block but retaliate" strategy with the 2 life gain per turn allowing that freedom.

4 Tops is what you would put in if you wanted Top in your opening hand, which clearly the deck does.

[Hummingbird TG]

First, on Ajani: Ajani is slow. Angel gives us an 8 point lifeswing a turn as early as turn 5 (4 if you run Chrome Mox); and Ajani gives us a, um...2-point life-swing? Or lets us make weenies a tiny bit better, but short of facing up to a Goyf? (btw, the Removal argument is moot, because Thresh runs more counters than you run removal, and so does TA, and almost everything else, and enough cantrips to find more Goyfs faster than you can find more removal) And the Avatar token looks like it's going to suck against anything short of control. Who will just kill it with one of their million ways to anyway.

Next, 4 Tops. Do you ever want to play a turn 1 top? Correct me if I misunderstand your deck, but as far as I know I don't think I ever want to play a turn one Top in a deck running Savannah Lions/Isamarus/Figures of Destiny, as well as Thoughtseize (and perhaps Therapy).Turn 2 I'd want to play more creatures and disruption too, and when I finally want to play Top it would be the midgame or so. And all the while I don't want to see more than one Top. Seeing it in the midgame is better than seeing it in my opening grip and drawing the disruption in the midgame where it is dead...

[ParkerLewis]

I'm sorry what do you mean?

I was just pointing out that what you described was actually the whole Internet ;)

There also used to be a game on tv where participants had to listen to a definition or answer, and then guess the corresponding question. I tried to mimic that, but maybe I failed. This game is old.

[FoolofaTook]

First, on Ajani: Ajani is slow. Angel gives us an 8 point lifeswing a turn as early as turn 5 (4 if you run Chrome Mox); and Ajani gives us a, um...2-point life-swing? Or lets us make weenies a tiny bit better, but short of facing up to a Goyf? (btw, the Removal argument is moot, because Thresh runs more counters than you run removal, and so does TA, and almost everything else, and enough cantrips to find more Goyfs faster than you can find more removal) And the Avatar token looks like it's going to suck against anything short of control. Who will just kill it with one of their million ways to anyway.

Next, 4 Tops. Do you ever want to play a turn 1 top? Correct me if I misunderstand your deck, but as far as I know I don't think I ever want to play a turn one Top in a deck running Savannah Lions/Isamarus/Figures of Destiny, as well as Thoughtseize (and perhaps Therapy).Turn 2 I'd want to play more creatures and disruption too, and when I finally want to play Top it would be the midgame or so. And all the while I don't want to see more than one Top. Seeing it in the midgame is better than seeing it in my opening grip and drawing the disruption in the midgame where it is dead...

Ajani is much harder for the opponent to remove than Exalted Angel. I don't know about you but when I see a morph go down in a white deck I make it a priority to remove it. Ajani also creates tactical problems that Exalted Angel does not. I'm not saying that Exalted Angel is not the way to go, but the meta has a feel for what to do against Exalted Angel and I think it is much less certain about how to deal with Ajani.

The targetted discard in the deck + the threats it wants to cast far outweigh any countermagic short of Counterbalance. This deck will do fairly well against blue, particularly on the draw. A Savannah Lion for a counterspell is a winning tradeoff, as is virtually any other creature in the deck except for Dark Confidant.

I disagree on the 3 tops vs 4 tops argument, however I think there are favorable points of argument in both directions on that one and I'm not interested in a running debate on the issue. And yes, there are definitely decks that I would play top against before Thoughtseize or Savannah Lions. I wouldn't do it as a choice over Thoughtseize in game 1 if that was the choice but you only draw Thoughtseize 40% of the time. The other 60% it's nice to have the possibility of topping into an early Thoughtseize.

The avatar token, BTW, can easily be a 15/15 on turn 7 or 8. It's not going to happen all that often, but when you deal with their early damaging threats (or they're doing something else early on) it can be a real problem for the opponent when Ajani lands through the disruption, because most opponents have no way to deal with him other than sending their creatures over to try to kill him. Throw in the fact that he's worth 2 life a turn as you're waiting out the interval and he's worth looking at. Hell, at worst he's often just a gain 2 life Timewalk but that's damage you didn't take in the process, making him more like a 7 life Timewalk.

[conboy31]

The avatar token, BTW, can easily be a 15/15 on turn 7 or 8. It's not going to happen all that often, but when you deal with their early damaging threats (or they're doing something else early on) it can be a real problem for the opponent when Ajani lands through the disruption, because most opponents have no way to deal with him other than sending their creatures over to try to kill him. Throw in the fact that he's worth 2 life a turn as you're waiting out the interval and he's worth looking at. Hell, at worst he's often just a gain 2 life Timewalk but that's damage you didn't take in the process, making him more like a 7 life Timewalk.

I get what you are saying but many of the references to timewalk that get tossed around on the source seem fairly rediculous. If anything it would be something closer to a 7 life Fog.
It does nothing about making them skip draws, stop the untap phase of an opponent or even prevent the opponent from playing magic. Ajani doesn't draw you cards or give you extra untaps. Really, what does a 7 life Timewalk even mean?

[FoolofaTook]

I get what you are saying but many of the references to timewalk that get tossed around on the source seem fairly rediculous. If anything it would be something closer to a 7 life Fog.
It does nothing about making them skip draws, stop the untap phase of an opponent or even prevent the opponent from playing magic. Ajani doesn't draw you cards or give you extra untaps. Really, what does a 7 life Timewalk even mean?

That's true. It's a 7 life fog then. The idea of Timewalk kind of came from putting your opponent one turn further from winning the game, however as you point out that's not the same thing as a Timewalk. My bad.

[Ectoplasm]

Who else here believes that WotC has *just* missed the mark with Ranger of Eos? It could have been a great card :(

[Artowis]

Who else here believes that WotC has *just* missed the mark with Ranger of Eos? It could have been a great card :(

It IS a great card in T2 and possibly in Extended as well. It's one of the best white cards in a while. What could've been done to it that wouldn't make it busted outside of a +1/+1 pump* to it's stats?

* Which is unneeded, but w/e.

[Bardo]

Internally, I'd bet it was a 2/2 for 2W for awhile before Development or the FFL tweaked him to be a 3/2 for 3W. At 2W, he was probably too good, even as a 1/2 or 2/1 (obv). Maybe. At 2/1 and 2W he'd probably be playable in Legacy.

WW for 2/2 with his ability would have been interesting too, though clearly pushing the bounds for what you can get with WW.

[Aggro_zombies]

Internally, I'd bet it was a 2/2 for 2W for awhile before Development or the FFL tweaked him to be a 3/2 for 3W. At 2W, he was probably too good, even as a 1/2 or 2/1 (obv). Maybe. At 2/1 and 2W he'd probably be playable in Legacy.

WW for 2/2 with his ability would have been interesting too.
What would he go after, aside from Mongeese? Or would something be built around him?

I just see a deck with a high enough density of one-drops to make it worthwhile getting screwed by lots of common cards in the format (EE being the worst for this particular card, probably).

[Hummingbird TG]

The targetted discard in the deck + the threats it wants to cast far outweigh any countermagic short of Counterbalance. This deck will do fairly well against blue, particularly on the draw. A Savannah Lion for a counterspell is a winning tradeoff, as is virtually any other creature in the deck except for Dark Confidant.

Hmm...? Um. Perhaps you don't get the idea. Your removal and Grunts (maybe discard) get stopped by counters. Then they wall you with a Goyf. And you proceed to lose in epic fashion, either because they beat you in the long game with Shackles, Demigods, and whatever control decks decide to use, or beat you to death with Goyfs and Mongeese in short order. Or they land a Counterbalance. And.........you lose. Or try to Vindicate and get Countered to oblivion. Did I mention how you've got to draw 5 lands out of 19 to cast a planeswalker through Daze? (or that they die to a hit from Tarmo, who Blue draws more often than you draw removal thanks to Brainstorm and cantrips.

To reliably cast Ajani anytime relevant (i.e. before you've lost already), I think there is a definite need to run more mana. Else your chances of getting Ajani running by turn 5 or 6 isn't exactly very high...(and topdecking him lategame doesn't exactly do much...)

[Bardo]

What would he go after, aside from Mongeese? Or would something be built around him?

I was thinking something with serious combo-implications, like Disciple of the Vault, Martyr of Sands or Mogg Fanatic (in a Reveillark shell).

Putting shenanigans aside, a 2-mana creature that Eladamri's Call'd up a couple of 2-power weenies would probably be as annoying as shit in Standard (like putting double-Akrasan Squire in play on turn-3, etc.)

[Nihil Credo]

What would he go after, aside from Mongeese? Or would something be built around him?
I've had this laying around for a few weeks. Fun as hell, though not tremendously competitive:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [UNH] Mountain
3 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [PR] Plateau
2 [PR] Savannah
4 [PR] Taiga
4 [PR] Windswept Heath
4 [PR] Wooded Foothills
1 [LG] Pendelhaven

// Creatures
3 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
1 [ALA] Behemoth's Herald
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [PLC] Radha, Heir to Keld
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
2 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [ALA] Ranger of Eos
1 [ON] Silvos, Rogue Elemental
1 [ALA] Godsire

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [PR] Lightning Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
3 [VI] Natural Order

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CHK] Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel

[FoolofaTook]

Hmm...? Um. Perhaps you don't get the idea. Your removal and Grunts (maybe discard) get stopped by counters. Then they wall you with a Goyf. And you proceed to lose in epic fashion, either because they beat you in the long game with Shackles, Demigods, and whatever control decks decide to use, or beat you to death with Goyfs and Mongeese in short order. Or they land a Counterbalance. And.........you lose. Or try to Vindicate and get Countered to oblivion. Did I mention how you've got to draw 5 lands out of 19 to cast a planeswalker through Daze? (or that they die to a hit from Tarmo, who Blue draws more often than you draw removal thanks to Brainstorm and cantrips.

To reliably cast Ajani anytime relevant (i.e. before you've lost already), I think there is a definite need to run more mana. Else your chances of getting Ajani running by turn 5 or 6 isn't exactly very high...(and topdecking him lategame doesn't exactly do much...)

One of the main points of the targetted discard is to make their counters unreliable. It works. Yes, sometimes they'll get you locked down with Counterbalance, and sometimes they'll be holding Spell Snare when it actually has value, but a lot of the time they're going to be looking sadly at their lock in the graveyard whle the Savannah Lion they could not counter with Spell Snare is beating on them. A lot of the time they'll be dropping goyf only to have you Cabal Therapy immediately afterwards, forcing them to use the counter then instead of when you try to plow it.

Targetted discard can really mess with counter-magic. It takes them off the catbird's seat in terms of picking what they are going to counter and what they can save to protect their limited threats.