[Deck] Deep Blue (Affinity x Fairy Stompy's Lovechild)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This is just something I fumbled around with on MWS. As is often the case, it was a complete branch-off from an attempt to use some cards that didn't even show up in the final list (I was trying to build three-color uwb wildfire with Upheaval instead of Wildfire + that Hedgemon guy from Alara, if you're interested)

Instead I stumbled into this build, prodded by the interaction of several of the cards, memories of attempts to build Affownity or some such silly name before, and from taking the principles of Fairy Stompy, which I had made fun of quite a bit when it came out but which has, I think, become quite a good deck, and applying them to a different shell.

Mana:
4x Chrome Mox
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Island
4x Mishra's Factory

Creatures:
4x Somber Hoverguard
4x Master of Etherium
4x Etherium Sculptor
4x Myr Enforcer

Draw:
4x Thoughtcast
4x Thirst for Knowledge

Control:
4x Force of Will
4x Chalice of the Void

Cranial Plating:
4x Cranial Plating

This is an early draft list that needs refining of some kind. So far, however, I've been impressed. The deck doesn't have a lot of tricks, but it does a good job of having fast, huge creatures, some minimal but effective disruption elements, and refilling it's hand and recovering easily.

SB, also very draft-ish;

4x Propaganda
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Powder Keg
3x Tangle Wire

Reasons I'm not running certain cards;


Arcbound Ravager: Generally worse than Master of Etherium, requiring more commitment and making you more vulnerable to removal. Also not blue.

Frogmite/Arcbound Worker: Too small to really count as creatures in Legacy. Also, the latter is poor with Chalice.

Other Equipment: Might be worth running. But Cranial Plating makes your guys really big.

Trinket Mage/Sower: Not artifacts, although they may make their way in.

Mana count may also be a little high. Perhaps factories will end up being cut. Academy Ruins, while slow, might be worth packing in.

I'm also pondering trying to fit in Broodstar. Tezzeret is another potential late game bomb, albeit more expensive, usually.



If you're curious, the deck name comes from the chess-playing supercomputer.

[Anusien]

Is Mulldrifter better than Thirst for Knowledge? TfK goes one deeper, but Mulldrifter is sometimes a guy. In this case, I don't think TfK being an instant is relevant since you have nothing else to hold mana open for.

Is 4 Cranial Plating too many? You only have 16 guys, and I feel like drawing 2 is going to be serious overkill.

I would also suggest looking at Juggernaut as an additional beater; I feel like Juggernaut has fallen out of favor.

Edit: Is Factory better than Blinkmoth Nexus? I'd think being able to fly here would be very very nice.

[Willoe]

Wasn't Deep Blue the only computer that could beat the Russian chess pro Kasparov?

Anyway, that's one hell of a build. I like that people finally are seeing how good Somber Hoverguard is. Flying is very important, which is why I also tend to use Ornithopter in some builds. But that dude needs an Equipment (Jitte or Plating) to be really effective. Otherwise, it's just another small random semi-critter.

I don't really like Mishra's Factory in here. If it has to be a land, I was thinking of another blue source and then testing Broodstar. Yes, Broodstar. It is a flying (huge thing) Master of Etherium that is larger than Tombstalker (huge thing) in most cases. But it's casting cost is quite prohibitive. And our artifact count might not be high enough to cast it consistently (not quite as huge thing. Dead topdecks=boohoo). You mention the possibility yourself, but have you tested it? Also, Chrome Mox only has 16 pitch cards. That isn't enough, IMO. 20 at least, methinks.

Ehterium Sculptor: Really? For what use? It doesn't fly, get's hit by a hell lot of things, it doesn't fly and it gets hit by artifact hate. But it's a Sapphire Medalion for artifacts. Why do you need that? Explain please!

I thought that Thoughtcast was enough draw. Am I wrong? Is Thirst for Knowledge really necessary?

And I'm a shit at creating sideboards, so I don't have any comment on that.

Conclusion:
It's not really one of my tastes, but I think the deck has potential.

[socialite]

This is very similar to a deck I was messing around with for a while except I splashed white for Ethersworn Canonist, have you thought of splashing at all IBA?

I also agree with Mulldrifter over TFK. It has evasion which is nice with plating since Hoverguard is the only other creature you run with evasion. Not to mention the ability to evoke it versus Ichorid is excellent.

[jazzykat]

I think that 8 draw is awesome sauce.

It was suggested to use Juggernaut, but I think that Su-Chi may get the job done and requires more than a bolt. You can sink extra mana into a factory or nexus if it goes south.

I always want to put transmute artifact into a deck but I tend to think a different direction with welders and a red splash take you way out of what you have intended.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I also dont get the Sculptor. I want him to be good too because he's a cool card, but the only thing he realistically helps cast is Myr Enforcer. Are you trying to dump artifacts in play after you draw? If only Thoughtcast was an Artifact Sorcery...

Looks interesting.

[socialite]

I also dont get the Sculptor. I want him to be good too because he's a cool card, but the only thing he realistically helps cast is Myr Enforcer. Are you trying to dump artifacts in play after you draw? If only Thoughtcast was an Artifact Sorcery...

Looks interesting.

Lowers the cost of almost everything in the deck. Check.
Pitches to Chrome Mox. Check.
Makes Plating and Master bigger. Check.
Pitches to Thirst. Check.
Pitches to Force. Check.

I have no clue what you are saying.

[Van Phanel]

Pitches to Chrome Mox. Check.

Try reading Chrome Mox again. An old mistake that many people make (because colored artifacts weren't around back when ChromeMox was printed.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I also really like the "newer" versions of AFoWinity and built the decks up and they suffered from a serious lack of power. Frogmites suck and Ravager just can't be himself in a deck with so few artifacts. First things first, for a long time I have been looking for a deck to put Epochrasite into. Perhaps Epochrasite would be a good threat to look into? Stalls the early game and then owns the late game. I think the Sculptor and Somber Hoverguard are just inferior creatures in Legacy. In the Somber Hoverguard spot I think Serendib Efreet would just be better. I really like Master of Etherium in the deck since that card is just a BEAST. I think what would make this deck really good are artifact threats backed up by non-artifact threats. Well timed Shattering Spree and Ancient Grudge rip Affinity to shreds and so I think threats like Serendib, who can actually block creatures and won't die to a single Lightning Bolt (assuming no CotV @1). I also agree that Thirst should be Mulldrifter, its just damn good and late game its a beater.

As far as Cranial Plating, I personally don't like the card unless its in a pure aggro Affinity build. I have been playing around with some of the AFoWinity builds and I always wished that Plating was Jitte whenever I drew it. Jitte is simply the best equipment in the game and makes every creature in the deck a serious threat that can actually block creatures and live, unlike Plating. For the 4x equipment slots something like 3x Jitte, 1x Sword of Light and Shadow or a 2/2 split would be really good. Tombstalker is a serious threat so pro-black fliers are good and as previously mentioned, the life gain would make Light and Shadow better than Fire and Ice in a deck like this.

[socialite]

Try reading Chrome Mox again. An old mistake that many people make (because colored artifacts weren't around back when ChromeMox was printed.

I don't even have to look at it I remember non artifact. I forgot about that.

[cloudstrife7]

My favorite thing about cranial plating is that you can attack without it equipped, and just put it onto whatever doesn't get blocked as long as you have BB open, leaving your opponent with no real options during the combat phase. Without access to black mana, do you still find it to be as dangerous? It seems like without the damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't aspect of the card, you could find a better alternative.

[Tao]

I also dont like Sculptor. It has synergies with many cards when not in play but it's impact when casted is about 0 - pumping Plating a bit, being 1/2 and making Enforcer a bit cheaper does not make the cut imo.

Thirst is better than Mulldrifter imo but it is close. But I think it will be usually casted for 3. So usually drawing one more and discarding some jank seems better than the option for a 2/2 flyer.

Have you thought about Vesuvan Shapeshifter? Always the biggest guy on the field so he fits into the fat guy concept. He could also copy the Master of Etherium which seems fun.

[hi-val]

Cranial Plating is amazing. IBA puts it in its own category for a good reason. It turns FOW from a disruption card into a substantial Time Walk, because it means you're hitting for 7-8 more per turn or eating Tarmogoyfs.

In other words, would you play an equipment that was 2 to play, 1 to equip, and gave a dude +6/+0?

[Brushwagg]

I kind of like this deck. It looks like it could really smash some face.

@Etherium Sculptor: I like it. Makes most of the deck cheaper and I pretty sure this is not going to be on list of stuff the other player needs to deal with.

@Myr Enforcer: Not sure I really like this guy. Ya he's a 4/4 but what I'm thinking is maybe a couple of Broodstar (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/31.html). They don't get the bonus from Sculptor or Master but it does fly and should be HUGE. Not to mention you have FOW back up, and it can imprint if you need it to.

[Forbiddian]

Hmm, I'm not so sure about the manabase.

You have 8 blue lands and 4 Chrome Mox for 12 total blue sources. 4 are stifleable and 4 are wasteable. FS has similar blue requirements, running 10 islands and 4 Chrome Mox, but its lands are all solid basics.

Aside from board sweepers and Shattering Spree ruining your day (which everyone criticizes Affinity for and yet, Affinity still exists), the deck seems vulnerable to Wasteland in a lot of games. Why does this deck require fewer islands than Faerie Stompy? Or is FS playing too many? I see Sower of Temptation, but with the added vulnerability to artifact kill and fewer blue sources in general, it might be hard to keep all of them on the table.

[Bardo]

This looks friggin' sweet. Nicely done.

A few thoughts, in random order:

I'd run 3Sphere in the board over Tangle Wire (your combo MU looks weak); the blue count in the manabase looks off (maybe -2 Citadel, +2 Island; also, you have a lot of acceleration, but the lack of things that tap for U is going to be a limiting factor in a lot of games); Blinkmoth Nexus may be better than Factory because of Plating (that aside, Factory > Nexus); experiment with Mulldrifter over TFK (this is a Tap-Out Blue style deck, after all); Etherium Sculptor seems meh; as much as I love Plating, Pulp_Fiction has a good point about Jitte -- I had the same experiences playing aFOWnity.

Lastly, Tezzeret? "Cool Things," perhaps, but he could be nutty -- all of his abilities are relevant for this deck.

[thefreakaccident]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5595

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Etherium Sculptor serves something like the role of Arcbound Worker in Raffinity; it's not there to be a threat but to accelerate your real game and to be made a threat, if need be, by your other cards.

hi-val is right about Cranial Plating. Jitte certainly adds power and versatility, but a delayed +4/+4 a turn simply doesn't compare to +7/+0 right here and now for forcing the opponent to answer it or die.

Right now I'm tinkering with both Ancestral Vision and Tezzeret, trying to see where they might fit in. TfK seems like it will probably be cut.

Darksteel Citadel shouldn't be cut; I really want more artifact lands, not less, in this deck. But I don't think it's worth running wastelandable, off-color lands.

Nexus will probably replace Factory, although the loss of a blocking ability might make such a switch temporary.

Although the manland slot is the most likely to be cut to make way for extra spells or for, say, Academy Ruins.

[morgan_coke]

Why not leave in TfK and replace Sculptor with Mulldrifter? You'd have 12 draw spells, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

[socialite]

Why not leave in TfK and replace Sculptor with Mulldrifter? You'd have 12 draw spells, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

It has already been established that Sculptor fills a needed role in this deck. I don't really understand why people dislike the card.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Because the draw is designed primarily to refill your hand after you dump it on the board in the form of 7/7s, 10/4s, and flying 6/2s, a Chalice at 1 and something relevant Forced. As such, I don't want it crowding the deck. Mulldrifter might be better than TfK, but I wouldn't want it in the Sculptor slot. The only thing that could replace Sculptor would be another relevant accelerant, like Sapphire Medallion for instance, or a relative accelerant like Sphere of Resistance that has broken symmetry, but those don't beat with a Plating. If TfK became Drifter, however, that might be doable.

[Bahamuth]

I'd definitely play Mulldrifter. The card flies, and that's seriously important, especially when playing Plating (which is sick btw, should definitively be in).

For the sideboard, I agree on 3Shere. Also, 4 Needle seem good, because Deed is a serious danger with the artifact land.

[georgjorge]

Thorn could be better than 3Sphere against combo, as it comes down one relevant turn faster, and still allows you to cast your Forces. Worse against Thresh though.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Sphere of Resistance seems better than Thorn of Amethyst in this deck. Also hits combo pretty hard.

Possible alternative build;

-4 Mishra's Factory
+2 Blinkmoth Nexus
+2 Tezzeret
-4 Sculptor
+4 Sphere of Resistance
-4 TfK
+4 Mulldrifter

Alternately, since that gives you 8 flyers, you could run more Islands in the Nexus slot, which would reduce landscrew opportunity.

Really wish there was a duplicate of Seat of the Synod.

[DireLemming]

How about Courier's Capsule (+ Academy Ruins) for the draw slot? Being able to spread the investment over 2 turns offsets the higher cost somewhat and perhaps more importantly it makes it easier to recover after your mana gets raped.

[Nightmare]

How about Courier's Capsule (+ Academy Ruins) for the draw slot? Being able to spread the investment over 2 turns offsets the higher cost somewhat and perhaps more importantly it makes it easier to recover after your mana gets raped.I'm also curious if you've done any testing with Courier's Capsule. It seems ready-fit for this deck.

[yawg07]

Have you ever found it hard to be pitching to Chrome and FoW both?
You have 16 Mox-able cards (including FoW) and 20 FoW pitch cards (not including FoW)

[Pinder]

I'm also curious if you've done any testing with Courier's Capsule. It seems ready-fit for this deck.

I don't know. Even shaving one off the casting cost via Sculptor, it still costs 1UU to draw two cards. I suppose you could split it up, but then it's much slower. I can't see how it's better than TfK, or Thoughtcast, or something.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Chrome Mox would be unplayable at that point.

As it is, it's gotten significantly worse since I actually, y'know, read the card.

After thinking about it, I've decided that what the deck really needs is Trinket Mage, which also means squeezing in an EE and a Sigil of Distinction. Yeah, let's go ahead and put Trinket Mage in the TfK slot.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Here is the list I have been playing around with and I have to say, I really like the way this deck plays. Master of Etherium is fucking nasty in the deck:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Island
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Serendib Efreet
4x Master of Etherium
4x Epochrasite
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Mulldrifter
4x Thoughtcast
4x Force of Will
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
2x Jitte
2x Sword of Light and Shadow

Oftentimes it can keep pace with RGW Zoo, which is probably the most aggresive deck in the format. Its about a 60/40 matchup (unless turn 1 Chalice @1) in favor of Zoo. Not bad at all from a Aggro Control standpoint. Worst matchups would be most likely be Lands! and Loam variants, basically anything running Wasteland + Tabernacle, as well as Dredge. I am not sure how this would do against Goblins since only Factory, Myr Enforcer, and Epochrasite can block Piledriver but I would assume it is not favorable. While this is an interesting deck and it should have a decent matchup against Landstill and Thresh variants, but it seems to have all the normal weaknesses that these decks have to serious aggro decks but is ever more vulnerable to cards like Wasteland, Deed, EE, Serenity, KGrip, and Ancient Grudge. I think the question at hand is, would playing Deep Blue (Sea) really be a better choice than playing something like Faerie Stompy or ITF?

[Aggro_zombies]

When I was messing around with new versions of Affinity, I found that splashing black for Bob was godly - Bob turbocharges the deck and makes things so much more powerful, even if he takes big chunks out of your life total. Two cards per turn in a deck that tends to play out its hand pretty quickly is really, really strong. The problem here is that I was playing a lower curve and no Enforcer, so Bob is probably too painful to justify the foray into a second color. (Just to emphasize, though - playing Bob in this deck is like driving taking the deck from zero to sixty in under a couple seconds in a fast car).

White is also a good splash. Swords is nice but unnecessary - the card that's really good is Ethersworn Canonist. Good sideboard material but probably not what you're looking for.

Have you tried Erayo, or do you want to keep it more on the aggro side than the control side?

Personally, Nexus tested much better than Factories. The ability to stick them with a flying dude wearing a Cranial Plating is huge, and offsets the loss of toughness and the expense required to pump it.

[Pinder]

Actually, if you're running Trinket Mage, do you think it would be worth it to swap out the Darksteel Citadels for Ancient Dens and try to squeeze Ethersworn Canonist in there? It seems like that guy would be a beating against any deck that could hope to race you.

edit - You'd probably have to run a couple more white mana sources, to. And it would always give you Swords.

[Phoenix Ignition]

edit - You'd probably have to run a couple more white mana sources, to. And it would always give you Swords.

Sucks with CotV

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There are two constraints on the deck slots in Deep Blue, above and beyond the usual problems of mana cost and power level;

- The blue count. You have to maintain both Force of Will and Chrome Mox; the former is easier, since Master of Etherium and Etherium Sculptor support it. Chrome Mox is tighter; the non-artifact clause really hurts.

- The artifact count. Besides TfK, you want Myr Enforcer and Somber Hoverguard to be cheap, and you want Cranial Plating (which I reiterate again, is insanely good; it may not be versatile, but neither is Tarmogoyf. Sometimes killing fast is just better) and Master of Etherium to be big.

Trinket Mage, I've decided, is necessary because he can help you with both; he pitches to Force and Mox, and also goes to grab a Seat, a Chalice, a Sigil or an EE to boost your other guys.

That being said, Ethersworn Canonist lowers your Force count, but doesn't affect the other two. If you cut two lands, and ran Tezzeret, it might be an improvemet to the consistency of the deck. There's no doubt it's powerful, and Trinket Mage makes it easier to get to five mana.

The manabase makes it difficult, however. Maybe something like...

-4 Seat of the Synod
-4 Chrome Mox
-4 Ancient Den
-4 Glimmervoid
-4 Ancient Tomb
-2 Gemstone Mine?

But then you're massively exposed to Blood Moon/Magus and Wasteland, and you lose the manlands.

Until they print artifact painlands, it's probably better to stick to mono-blue.

[Brushwagg]

I'd say Trinisphere for the board. Thorn of Amethyst and Sphere of Resistance make it a pain for combo but I know TES can play through them, while Trinisphere makes combo have to answer it before going off.

@Trinket Mage: If you are considering this have you looked at Fabricate at all? I know you lose the body that Trinket provides, but Fabricate allows you to look for any artifact in the deck.

[Phantom]

With Trinket Mage in there, is there any temptation to throw the painter combo in, or would it be too counterproductive with the aggro theme (and Chalice)?

[Wobbles The Goose]

You just seem to be trying to hard to play myr enforcer. I mean, I see this deck as trying to exploit two cards: Force of will and Cranial Plating. With Plating, it doesn't really matter how big your creatures are, they are going to be swinging for 5+ anyway. This is why AfFOWinity gets away with running tiny creatures like ravenger, ornithopter, cloud of faeries and frogmite. Bending over backwards to play enforcer (who still has a really hard time fighting a tarmogoyf) just makes the deck way to mana hungry. Play around with this list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=280822&postcount=138 for a while and you can see if improvements can be made to that instead of reinventing the wheel.

[yawg07]

Just have to point it out, it is RAVAGER, not ravenger.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Play around with this list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=280822&postcount=138 for a while and you can see if improvements can be made to that instead of reinventing the wheel.

Going back to the drawing board is not only permissible but desirable when the current blueprints fail. Why would I focus on improving on a failed deck? The wheel must be reinvented in this case. Wheels work better with less than four sides.

It's possible that this deck, too, will fail and have to be discarded, but timidity of ambition serves no purpose here.

[Pinder]

Wheels work better with less than four sides.


Geometrically speaking, a circle is a polygon with infinite sides. Going less than four gives you a choice between a triangle, and a line for your wheel.

Just sayin'.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Geometrically speaking, a circle is a polygon with infinite sides. Going less than four gives you a choice between a triangle, and a line for your wheel.

Just sayin'.

I will cast you into the darkness.


There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Going back to the drawing board is not only permissible but desirable when the current blueprints fail. Why would I focus on improving on a failed deck? The wheel must be reinvented in this case. Wheels work better with less than four sides.

It's possible that this deck, too, will fail and have to be discarded, but timidity of ambition serves no purpose here.

Who ever said that AfFOWnity is a failed deck? Like a lot of legacy decks, the shear size of the format and the lack of significant tournament play means that good decks fade into obscurity through no fault of their own all the time. That said, even a terrible build of AfFOWnity got 3rd in a 88 person tournament (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21754) mere weeks ago. Plus it only received master of etherium with the last set and obviously needs to be tweaked to use that card efficiently.

Obviously better builds of that deck are out there, and discounting the synergistic affinity cards (frogmite, ravager, ornithoper) feel like a step back in technology. Frogmite and Ornithopter aren't that big by any metric, but with cranial plating that doesn't really matter, does it? The important thing is that you are able to cast them, as opposed to getting stuck with multiple Enforcers or Hoverguards in your hand for the first three turns.

[4eak]

How is this deck not AfFOWnity?

You play an accelerated artifact land base, a mix of Affinity and flying creatures, heavy reliance upon Cranial Plating, Chalice, and Force of Will.

You've basically improved the draw with TfK and increased the mana base at the expense of your fundamental turn by removing aggressive components like Ravager. What makes you think is an improvement over the other versions of AfFOWnity?



peace,
4eak

[ssilver]

I am getting confused by who is talking to who here :confused: . That said, I am having trouble with the deck being able to go off fast enough, as even though it is aggro-control, its mostly aggro with a touch of control, and can't depend on being able to counter threats like goyf (Force is there to protect your win-con's right?). In testing the deck I have been having some problems powering out win conditions, does anyone else have this problem?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How is this deck not AfFOWnity?

Because more than a third of the card slots are different? Because, while there's the artifact + blue cards connection, the fundamental strategies of the deck are different, with Deep Blue being a mid-range deck, and AfFOWnity attempting but failing to be an aggressive deck?


You've basically improved the draw with TfK and increased the mana base at the expense of your fundamental turn by removing aggressive components like Ravager. What makes you think is an improvement over the other versions of AfFOWnity?

Go back and read. It's not an improvement over AfFOWnity. I'm not going to tinker around endlessly with a list that has failed to prove itself repeatedly. Deep Blue was built from scratch within it's own internal logic, not trying to squeeze Force of Will into T2 Raffinity.

[xsockmonkeyx]

How is this deck not AfFOWnity?

You play an accelerated artifact land base, a mix of Affinity and flying creatures, heavy reliance upon Cranial Plating, Chalice, and Force of Will.

You've basically improved the draw with TfK and increased the mana base at the expense of your fundamental turn by removing aggressive components like Ravager. What makes you think is an improvement over the other versions of AfFOWnity?



peace,
4eak

Juliet:
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."
Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Although we could get into the serious psychological aspects of operating under a different name. It gives the deck an actual identity of it's own. There's less reason to run cards that are bad in the deck, such as Ravager or Frogmite or Ornithopter, since the name isn't mentally predisposing you to just be T2 Affinity with FoW squeezed in the middle, both literally and titularly.


It also sounds better.

[Sims]

Besides, AfFOWinity is a rather ... poor name. I always called it Mono-U affinity simply for the fact that I felt like an idiot saying AfFOWinity aloud.

Other topics:

I've been testing the original list -4 Factory -4 TfK, +4 Mulldrifter +2 Nexus +2 Island.... and while I understand the purpose of it in the deck, but really, is FoW necessary here? In the test games I've done with your build, as it is close to a teammates mono-u affinity list, I've been left very quickly with nothing to throw away to FoW when needed. That is to say, I've been playing veryaggressively with the deck and find myself lacking cards to pitch, or in hand in general, until Thoughtcast or Mulldrifter come online. The lower artifact count sometimes requires me to hold back on Guards or Enforcers, which sucks when trying to beatdown. I know if FoW were to be removed, it would probably have to be for another blue card which makes it a very difficult thing to replace, but isn't there something that could possibly fill this role (protection of your threats) that doesn't fall victim to being hand/draw dependant?

[jazzykat]

I am not sure how quickly this deck wins or how much mana it will have open but could something like delay or mana leak fit the bill here?

I realize they are not very good cards in general but with limited blue mana sources it may do the trick?

[Tao]

There's less reason to run cards that are bad in the deck, such as Ravager or Frogmite or Ornithopter

So what is Etherium Sculptor doing in there?

Also, the statement that Ravager is bad in a deck full of Artifacts is just wrong. It may be no must play in a deck that accelerates with Tomb but it still can grow to obscene sizes and the Modular trigger is really strong in a deck with Blinkmoth Nexus.

So if you say that Ravager is bad because it lacks synergy then you are wrong and if you are say that Ravager is bad because it lacks power then you should not play a card like Etherium Sculptor.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I've toyed with similar types of 'Affinity,' less suicidal and more disruptive versions similar to this. Master of Etherium and Cranial Plaiting are far better than Ravager. They allow things to be just as big without forcing you to sacrifice your own board position while pumping all of your other beaters. In decks that can get to three mana, Master of Etherium obsoletes Arcbound Ravager.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yes.

Arcbound Ravager is terrible because there's never a point in the game where it's worth it to put the entire game on a gamble, because you can always recover. It's why Eva Green dropped Negators for Goyfs. Why sacrifice the late game for speed if you can have both?

[Tao]

Ravager needs not to sacrifice the board to be good. Whenever one of your Artifacts would die, it grows and when Ravager dies one of your other Artifacts grows.
You got a 5/5 Enforcer and can't attack into a 5/6 Goyf? Need just a bit more damage with the Nexus to win? Opponent tries to steal your best creature with Sower of Temptation? In those and a thousand more situations Ravager comes to save the day!

But anyway. Of course sacrificing the board is an option: there is such a point where it is worth to do it. It is the point on which you'd lose anyway if you don't. After Mono U has resolved Fact for 2 Counterspells and Shackles in play and your only hope is that they cant handle an 8/8 creature. Or when the Ground is stalled with Goblins after they went nuts with Ringleader and you can sac everything to pump your Nexus.

Ravager is an insane strong creature and if it was not for Ancient Grudge, the Turn 3 Combo deck, Kataki, Hurkly's Recall and 3 banned playsets in its deck it would still be the format defining card in Extended.

I am not saying you need to play it, but bashing it like it was a bad card is complete nosence.

[Brushwagg]

I know if FoW were to be removed, it would probably have to be for another blue card which makes it a very difficult thing to replace, but isn't there something that could possibly fill this role (protection of your threats) that doesn't fall victim to being hand/draw dependant?

Well there is always good old Counterspell. Sure it's not free but does the job.

As far as something that stays in play there's Counterbalance, but I don't think that it fits the deck at all. Decree of Silence costs 8, so I think your looking at FOW or Counterspell.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Too many colorless mana sources. Mana Leak or Rune Snag is more likely than Counterspell.

I can try to test Ravager, Tao, but I honestly don't see any chance of it working out in this deck.

[hi-val]

I was thinking about Masticore this morning as an outside possibility, as it may come down costing the same as Myr Enforcer and has its own benefits. I don't know how much mana you make and whether that is relevant to powering the core up; I also don't know how relevant machinegunning guys is for the cost of a card every turn.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I also don't know how relevant machinegunning guys is for the cost of a card every turn.

Very considering your guys don't have trample and only really need to hit once or twice without being chump blocked. I tested 2 Masticore in here and was pleased with how they played. I was also pleased with dumping the cards that I drew, because a lot of them aren't that great late game (chalice, FoW in singles when you have no blue cards, Chrome Mox, Ancient's tombs). I ended up using Thoughtcast, Thirst, and Mulldrifter for draws and took out Ancestral because I hated not getting it turn 1. Also I liked chalice @ 0 for a few matchups and just to accel my artifact base early, so it was anti-synergistic later on.

This did pretty well until I ran into people with Ensnaring Bridge (honestly, the cards you see on MWS these days) and I was really hoping for some sort of removal, since Master of Etherium is awful to have when they have E bridge. Powder Kegs would have been helpful there.

[Captain_Morgan]

Painter's Servant->Cunning Wish->Hydroblast? Or just straight to a bounce spell.

Otherwise could try Hydroblasts maindeck, with something that also colour shifts.

But that would probably the overall deck.

[BlindMage]

I've never been a fan of affinity for a variety of reasons, but this deck looks interesting. There's a couple of cards I don't like on paper. It just seems like there must be better cards than Myr Enforcer and Etherium Sculptor. My objection to Sculptor is that it seems like a deck without any removal needs things that either need to be answered, things that help punch through the big threats, while Myr Enforcer just doesn't seem big enough without any evasion or other abilities in the world of Tarmogoyf.

Brainstorming for alternatives, I came up with these

For Sculptor: Thorn of Amethyst (I think someone mentioned this), Powder Keg, Waterfront Bouncer, Epochrasite.

For Enforcer: Masticore, Broodstar, Epochrasite

Thoughts?

[Melman]

Here's a list I've been using that's been kicking some ass, followed by thoughts.

// Lands (24)
6 Island
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Chrome Mox

// Beats (12)
4 Somber Hoverguard
4 Master of Etherium
4 Etherium Sculptor

// Draw and Beats (5)
2 Trinket Mage
3 Mulldrifter

// Draw (6)
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Thoughtcast

// Own (5)
3 Cranial Plating
2 Umezawa's Jitte

// Control (8)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will

// Sideboard
4 Propaganda
4 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Powder Keg




Alright, so there's no radically new ideas in here. But I think I've fine tuned some things and got a concise, focused list together.

**Warning - this section is for people who argue that this is aFOWinity. It's not, here's why. If you already know that, skip this ***
First, this deck is a midrange deck. As previously stated, If you try and go to fast, you wind up with aFOWinity. If you go to slow, you're going to lose to pretty much anything in the format with a clock (Goblins, Lots of combo, Thresh, whatever). So, thus the midground.
So we want the key ingrediants of midrange: Draw, Ability to deal with combo, and big beats. There's no point in screwing around with super fast cheap stuff like frogmite and thopter, and even to a degree Enforcer. They aren't big beats (only very situationaly), and they don't draw you anything. they aren't worth the random awesomeness of playing out your hand by turn 2, because then you're stuck with subpar threats and no hand.
So yeah. Don't try and turn this into aFOWinity.

*****
After that little tirade, here's some card choice explanations

I went with -1 Tomb, -1 Nexus, +2 island because I hate getting faceraped by wasteland and moon effects. Plus, tomb is mediocre in multiples, and we play a pretty good amount of blue cards, so we do need the islands. The added stability is well worth it.

I think the beats are pretty uncontroversial. MoE = duh. Hoverguard flies, comes out fast, pitches to Mox AND FoW. And Sculptor accelerates us, is an early body to stick an equip on, and fits the curve well.

Trinket Mage is good, but he's at a difficult spot in the curve and I don't want to waste MD slots for silly mage tricks. It sucks drawing them when you don't need them. Mage is a 3 for 2 body also, which means he better have a damn good ability, and his just doesn't make the cut here to be a 4 of. He gets you lands and chalices, and 8 of your SB cards though (important), so I filled my final 2 slots with him.

Mulldrifter is a multipurpose card, and this deck loves both purposes. I don't see why you wouldn't want to play him. He's a flying beater, which means he loves jitte and plating, and he draws you shit. It's one of those cards you are never disappointed to see. AND it pitches to mox and Fow. Hello, yes please.

I went for a 3/2 split on plating / jitte. People are arguing about them as if they are mutually exclusive. They aren't. Plating is amazing and accelerates this deck alot and kicks ass on any flier or anything, and jitte just wins some games, but it's legendary. I figured 5 equips was good for a deck with 14 creatures/17 with drifter / 20 with nexus. Getting flooded with equips is a pain.

Chalice and force are duh.

TFK and Thoughtcast are both awesome, so why not play them both. I can't decide if one is better than another; they kind of fill different rolls. I like seeing thoughtcast early, playing it turn 2 or something is awesome, and TFK is pretty much always good. And they both pitch to mox and fow, something you have to keep in mind. If you can afford it there's no such thing as too much draw.

SB isn't abnormal. I like relic in affinity because you can do something with it and have it count at the same time, and it's draw again. And it owns crypt with sculptor.

So. Any thoughts / disagreements?

[Wobbles The Goose]

Now, Melman's list I love.That just seems awesome, way more blue cards for force and chrome, more draw, more tutor, just great.

A few points:

Sculptor still seems lackluster, even more so now that you really don't have any big artifact creatures to use him with. I realize that he's a unique combination of attributes, but still.

No room for 1x Sigil of Distinction? That card is great with trinket mage in sea stompy.

[Melman]

Sculptor gets your equips, MoE, other sculptors. And I'll be brutally honest here, I'm not entirely sure how it works with Chalice, I would assume it makes a Chalice for 1 cost 1 or for 2 cost 3, but I've had multiple people tell me otherwise...
Regardless, That's 13 / 17 cards. Which jumps up alot post SB most of the time. And it's blue and it's an artifact. I still don't think you need big guys to make him useful, purely because this list plays so much draw and tutor and stuff so you should be tapping out most of the beginning turns anyways whether you have big guys or not, and that's when sculptor shines.

That said, I realise he's a wimpy body. I don't want to cut singles of him though, because he's best early game and seeing him late game is generally "meh whatever", so I'd have to find a really convincing 4 other cards to replace him. Most of them would have to be creatures. I'll do more testing.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ditto. Etherium Sculptor is a great turn 2/turn 1 drop. That's it. He's no late game bomb, but a lot of the rest of the deck is.

I'd actually rather squeeze in 1-2 Sapphire Medallion for redundancy than cut him.

Also, wtf, Wobbles? Is this a personal vendetta? That list had exactly one more Moxable/Force-pitchable card than my original list, and suddenly it's a vast improvement?

I do like the draw engine, though.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Also, wtf, Wobbles? Is this a personal vendetta? That list had exactly one more Moxable/Force-pitchable card than my original list, and suddenly it's a vast improvement?


I've nothing against you IBA. I'm a big fan, really.

It's just a few of your card choices I have a problem with. By my count Melman's got 3 more blue cards, which may not seem like much, but every blue card helps. That's a 12% increase over the original build, and it means that the average number of blue cards in an opening hand goes from a bit below 3 to a bit above 3, which is important if you need to force in the early turns of the game. And it got those slots by cutting cards I didn't like (Myr enforcer) and replacing them with cards that I do like.

So, yeah, I really like that build better. Sorry?

[georgjorge]

Is Hoverguard cast for 1U or U often enough to make up for the times he costs 3U ? Maybe this slot could simply be Drake/Efreet - they don't fit the theme, but unlike Hoverguard, they can ALWAYS be cast for three mana on turn two, and are bigger.


And Melman, no fear of combo ? Your sideboard ignores it pretty much...

[Melman]

Hovergaurd almost never costs 4. You play 8 artifact lands and so many other artifacts, I don't think I've ever cast him for more than 3, and almost always 1 or 2. And drake doesn't really fit, because you don't want to be bouncing those lands unless you play it turn 1, which is really rare.
And the SB kinda deals with combo in that prop and Keg owns EtW and Ichorid. But MD Chalice and FoW are both solid against tendrils based combo which is really the only kind that worries me. Sure, it's not amazing, but it's better than most decks, because a resolved chalice is gg (most of the time), and you have FoW to back it up / stall them out.

[ScatmanX]

I wonder why no one commented on the post talking about Transmute Artifact. It seams so nice. Sculptor would get better with it, since you'd be able to sac it for a Plating or Jitte, a corolles land for a Seat, or even an Enforcer for a Master of Eterium. But maybe the UU is too prohybitive... (also, pich for FoW and Mox! =])

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Double-blue is hard to get to.

I'll be laughed at, but I've been looking at Neurok Familiar lately. If you had about 32-36 artifacts...

[kicks_422]

When Master of Etherium was spoiled, I tried making something similar to this, no Ravagers and with Masters plus Broodstar and Plating. In a deck like this, I just find that Ravager is kind of unsynergistic because you WANT all those artifacts in play.

I'll try to dig up my old list. IIRC, it was 12-16 cards off of IBA's opening decklist. What I liked about it was that after I dropped artifact lockpieces, Masters/Broodstars/Cranial'd Sculptors gave no time for the opponent to recover, kind of like Faerie Stompy with more lock components and a quicker clock.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I do really like Melman's list, though. I feel it's about four or five cards off of where the deck wants to be, although I'm not sure what's the best cut. I do like the idea of Jitte on top of the Platings, although I'm inclined towards four of the latter.

TfK is such a tough choice. Really wish it was a critter. But the effect is so good.

[Anusien]

Double-blue is hard to get to.

I'll be laughed at, but I've been looking at Neurok Familiar lately. If you had about 32-36 artifacts...
I'd suggest looking at Sarcomite Myr, but it's problematic in that it doesn't imprint on Chrome Mox.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I don't like Sarcomite Myr, it's too lackluster in every way. Neurok Familiar at least sticks around and draws a card for one mana less.

Ack, I've just defended Neurok Familiar, what a silly deck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't like Sarcomite Myr, it's too lackluster in every way. Neurok Familiar at least sticks around and draws a card for one mana less.

Ack, I've just defended Neurok Familiar, what a silly deck.

:(

I do almost have the feeling that this deck is simply one card away from being truly competitive, unfortunately. This may be needless pessimism at this point in testing, however.

Some new incredibly useful card in Conflux, or a sudden errata on Chrome Mox, would help the deck a bit, though.

[Melman]

I think that sarcomite myr and Familiar are both a little silly. They aren't big enough and don't draw you enough to be worth their cost.

I agree that this deck needs a new tech card or something to be broken. I do think it has true competitiveness potential though. I'm experimenting with cutting Sculptors/TFK for trinket mages / drifters / 4th plating atm, I'll get back to you.

Don't give up! MoE MUST BE BROKEN

[DrewliusMaximus]

The only thing that could replace Sculptor would be another relevant accelerant, like Sapphire Medallion for instance, or a relative accelerant like Sphere of Resistance that has broken symmetry, but those don't beat with a Plating. If TfK became Drifter, however, that might be doable.

What about Sphere of Resistance AND Sculptor? Maybe there's too many non-artifacts in here that would be affected.

Also, FS does some annoying tricks with Pestermite. It might not have enough to do with this strategy, but I'm just saying...Pestermite is a versatile little sucker.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think Jitte is better than Sphere, at least with the extra draw creatures. Sphere makes the combo matchup better, but honestly, combo just isn't that widely played. And Chalice + FoW seems sufficient g1. I'd rather put any further anti-combo elements in the board. Jitte, combined with rather than replacing Plating, seems to offer some useful creature removal and staying power.

[Melman]

Super quick update, after messing around with the deck all day, Nexus is good. Way better than Factory in this deck. I'm considering playing 4 but we'll see. But for those trying the deck, nexus > factory. that's one slot set down, more to be tested.

[frenchy-man]

I'm not entirely sure how it works with Chalice, I would assume it makes a Chalice for 1 cost 1 or for 2 cost 3, but I've had multiple people tell me otherwise...

It works exactly as you think. I'll probably test the deck that seems quite good at a first glimpse...

[jazzykat]

With all the problems associated with Chrome Mox from the second being sort of dead, to not always having enough cards to pitch to it has anyone tested going down to 3? I think it's tough either way, as you definitely want to see 1 in the opening hand but probably don't want to see a second.

[xsockmonkeyx]

As long as we are trying out weird creatures, maybe Wizard Replica should get a spin. Theoretically it could discourage higher casting cost spells for your opponent while Chalice holds the fort for lower cc. Still not sure if it does enough.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't usually mind the extra Chrome Mox, because a zero mana artifact still pumps your Platings/Masters for free, drops the price tag on a bunch of your spells and pitches to TfK (unless you cut TfK).

Actually, that makes me think it might be worth it to run Lotus Petal just to speed up the deck that extra bit. Plus it would make EE a more versatile threat, and make it more realistic to think about Ethersworn Canonist either main or side.

[Melman]

The problem I see with lotus petal is that it would be difficult to find room for it. Maybe a potentially a Mox replacement, but then you get owned by blood moon and b2b and wastes and stuff even more because you don't have that mox that sticks around.
I dunno, petal just seems like you're trying to take the deck in too much of a vial affinity or aFOWinity direction

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah.

God, I wish Chrome Mox didn't restrict to non-artifact.

Maybe just stick to Jitte then.

I still can't synch up with cutting Enforcer, though. Big guys are big.

[Melman]

Honestly, the non artifact isn't that big of a restriction. The only blue cards you play that are artifact are MoE and Sculptor. You don't want to imprint MoE, and sculptor will probably already be in play. Most of the time you're pitching a draw or a hovergaurd.
It's worked out for me at least, are you using the same number of non-artifact blue sources as me?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm currently running a list that looks like;


4x Seat of the Synod
4x Ancient Den
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Chrome Mox
2x Glimmervoid

4x Master of Etherium
4x Etherium Sculptor
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Somber Hoverguard
4x Trinket mage

4x Chalice of the Void
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Cranial Plating
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtcast

I'm basically making the mana base vulnerable to allow for EE as an answer to various 2-3 cc threats, and Ethersworn Canonist out of the board for combo.

My thought is that if Blood Moon comes down, I'll draw Chrome Mox or Myr Enforcer. The latter, by the way, definitely needs to stay in. It's the deck's last, best hope against Pernicious Deed.

[Nydaeli]

I'm basically making the mana base vulnerable to allow for EE as an answer to various 2-3 cc threats, and Ethersworn Canonist out of the board for combo.

The occasional BB for Cranial Plating isn't bad either.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm really liking this list. It seems to basically have Fairy Stompy's broken starts, but a much more consistent mid game. It doesn't have quite as many control elements, but it just has that "really big guys" thing going on.

[Melman]

A few thoughts. Ill start at the top of your list and work down for simplicity's sake.

Introducing a second color to this deck seems like a dangerous proposition. It makes blood moon, deed, Powder keg, Back to backs (<-- really bad), and a rediculous number of other fairly commonly played cards that much better against you. And this is entirely for the ability to play EE for 2 (already possible with glimmervoid), or maybe 3, and a single sideboard card? It really doesn't seem worth it to me. I'm not even sure why you would ever want to play EE for 3 anyways. In my experience, agressively mulliganing for chalice and FoW (and whatever cards you play SB) is fine for combo.

I'm still not entirely sold on enforcer. He's pretty much always smaller than a goyf. He's filling a beater slot with a card that doesn't fly (drifter, hoverguard) and doesn't lol at goyf (MoE). I do see his merits though: Cheap, pumps and is pumped by MoE, survives deed. Hoverguard already survives deed though. I dunno, I would kind of like to see draw or equip or something here.

I pretty much already gave my thoughts on EE. It's obviously a pretty good card, but you play 8 2CC and 8 3CC of your own, and there really aren't a huge amount of 2cc and 3cc cards (that will stay in play for long) that you care about. Or care enough to splash a color and make room MD for.

I would still advocate the 3/2 plating/jitte split rather than 4 plating. Plating kicks ass on flyers, but you've cut some of those, and it just ends up trading dudes otherwise. Jitte connects a couple times and you win. That's what intuition tells me at least... Plating is so good though so maybe 4 is the right choice.

You are also getting a little dangerously low on the blue count for FoW and mox, which is an ever-present problem.

These are gut reactions looking at your list, without any testing. Not this specific I mean, so take that for what it's worth.

[Melman]

Any further development by anyone? I've been trying out a bunch of stuff but I haven't really figure out anything that works substantially better than anything else.
For the sake of getting everything in one place, here's a little summary of decisions to make

Mono-U vs White splash
Basically, the splash is for ethersworn cannonist. Adds game against combo, because Chalice + cannonist + FoW is awesome. potentially adds EE. You lose mana stability and manlands.

Potential Creatures:
I assume 4 MoE and Somber Hoverguard are locked in. Others are:
Myr Enforcer: Big body, artifact. Good with MoE, adds speed, bad with mox/fow and no utility or flying.
Trinket Mage: Blue for mox/fow, definition of utility, mana fixer (kind of), a body. Always costs 3, small body, no flying.
Mulldrifter: Doubly duty of Draw and flying body. Also blue. Rarely able to cast it outright, worse than TFK (mostly) if not hardcasting, not artifact for MoE
Etherium Sculptor: Great accelerant, blue artifact, Good with MoE and equips. Small body on its own, fairly useless after you play out your hand.

Potential Equips:
Plating Vs Jitte Vs SoFI/LS: Plating is really fast, and awesome on flyers. Jitte is the best equip in the game. SoFI draws you cards and snipes guys / laughs at fairy stompy / burn / Dragon Stompy. How many? 4/5/6?

Potential Draw:
TFK: Digs 3 deep, instant (although that doesn't matter much in this deck). Costs 3 though, is meh with an empty hand.
Thoughtcast: Most of the time is a mini ancestral. However, sometimes costs too much. Probably a 4 of but I dunno.
Drifter: Belongs here too. See above.

So yeah. Those are the choices we have to make basically

[4eak]

4x Seat of the Synod
4x Ancient Den
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Chrome Mox
2x Glimmervoid

4x Master of Etherium
4x Etherium Sculptor
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Somber Hoverguard
4x Trinket mage

4x Chalice of the Void
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Cranial Plating
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtcast



I suggest trying 1 Pithing Needle in any build of AfFOWnity with Trinket Mage. It is one of the few ways you have to deal with deed and a couple other nasty cards. I know it hurts with CotV@1, but it would still be worth playing overall.



peace,
4eak

[BlindMage]

What about Masticore in the Myr Enforcer spot? It seems like a great weapon to have in a deck that otherwise lacks removal. It lives through deed like Enforcer does, and can throw down with goyfs like the enforcer can't. Plus it allows plays like curving turn 1 Etherium Sculptor into turn 2 Masticore. It seems like the discard wouldn't hurt too bad, since there are cards you wouldn't really have a use for like later game Etherium Sculptors, moxen, and additional Masticores; and the deck has 8 draw spells.

[4eak]

@ BlindMage

Masticore is expensive, both in terms of mana and card advantage.

@ All

Myr Enforcer is very good in AfFOWnity, and I don't think you can replace him. By moving away from the traditional aggro-combo Affinity, you've dismantled your clock. AfFOWnity is missing threats (this is why MoE was such an amazing boost for the deck), and Enforcer fills a gap. I think you've pushed the draw engine and mana-base too much at the expense of your threat-base. Removing Enforcer just makes the problem even worse.

Enforcer is a real threat. He isn't perfect, but he fits. He's very cheap in a deck that really needs it. He's a 4/4 Body, which is sizable. He's an artifact, and he doesn't eat Deed.

If you aren't going to play Enforcer, or you're trying to play less than 4x Cranial Plating, then why play this deck instead of Faerie Stompy? MoE is not a good enough reason by himself.



peace,
4eak

[Melman]

You play the deck for Plating, MoE, Thoughtcast, and the potential of TFK, Ethersworn Cannonist. I realise Hoverguard is smaller than alot of FS's guys but he costs less too.
I do see your point though. Perhaps push the deck a little more towards the consistant clock direction, because making it too control oriented may be a lost cause what with deed and Disk and Hurkyl's recall and whatever raping you so hard. Then again, card draw allows you answers to those cards.
I dunno, see this is the problem, there are alot of cool cards that fit the deck, but we need to decide exactly what the deck should be before we eliminate stuff.

[frolll]

Well, it may seems out of the fuckin' blue, but have any of you toyed with maindecked/sideboarded Sower of Temptation ? I mean, these little fae can really do wonders about the Dreadstill or Aggro Loam MUs, getting huger guys than ours... Or maybe just Gilded Drake would be enough.

I'd also like to try to fit some Broodstars in it. 8/8 FLYERS are kinda retarded, when they come for UU. It's like an über Tombstalker, which seems cool (at least on paper, obv.).

/some random toughts


On a completely unrelated topic : Deep Blue >>>> any other crappy name based upon the fact that this is an Affinity deck running Force of Will. No debate.

[hi-val]

What about a crazy Japanese-style split on 3 Chrome Mox, 1 Petal?

The UW version also has Meddling Mage to name Deed or EE.

[idraleo]

Why don' t run a 1 off or a coupLe of Executioner's Capsule if you want to go with Trinket Mage? Sigil of Distinction is a powerful singleton too.

[hi-val]

I've no idea how many dudes you end up with on the board at any given time, but Mirrorweaving a Master of Etherium would probably be Total Win if you had, say, three guys out.

[Jonika]

I've no idea how many dudes you end up with on the board at any given time, but Mirrorweaving a Master of Etherium would probably be Total Win-MORE if you had, say, three guys out.
Fixed :laugh:

Edit: On a more serious note, does anyone have any play-testing data? I'm extremely interested in this deck.

[johanessen]

I'm currently running a list that looks like;


4x Seat of the Synod
4x Ancient Den
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Chrome Mox
2x Glimmervoid

4x Master of Etherium
4x Etherium Sculptor
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Somber Hoverguard
4x Trinket mage

4x Chalice of the Void
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Cranial Plating
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtcast

I'm basically making the mana base vulnerable to allow for EE as an answer to various 2-3 cc threats, and Ethersworn Canonist out of the board for combo.

My thought is that if Blood Moon comes down, I'll draw Chrome Mox or Myr Enforcer. The latter, by the way, definitely needs to stay in. It's the deck's last, best hope against Pernicious Deed.

I really like the list but the white splash.
Doesn`t compense to destabilize the mana base for combo pairings i think

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I agree on the white splash, after some initial testing.

Trinket Mage might be inferior to Mulldrifter or TfK at the end of the day.

On another note, Esperzoa;

Is this the card the deck needs to get going? Only I wouldn't cut the blue count without ditching Mox; and I'm not sure the deck survives ditching Mox.

[idraleo]

Esperzoa is a good call for this deck, it will probably replace Somber and make Plating more attractive than it could be now. On the other side, if you' re gonna play it Mox will be less attractive as the artifact counter goes on, leaving few pitch for it.

[Tao]

The deck needs Mox. If Chrome Mox doesn't work, try Mox Diamond. And I always thought Tangle Wire would be good in this deck, but with Esperzoa it would really rock. Rules question: When you bounce Wire with Esperzoa will the Wire trigger use last known information (A while ago it would have been last known information, but since Magus of the Moon works under Humility I know that the rules are worth a shit and Wizard changes them every month anyway) or will it tap nothing?
Anyway, even if it still taps it is pretty strong to have a permanent Tangle Wire.

An untested list that includes both ideas could look like this:

Mana: You need a lot of lands to make Mox Diamond playable and the Artifact manlands are very synergetic in this anyway.

4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [P2] Island (3)
4 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

Spells: Trinket Mage can find Sigil of Distinction which is really good with Esperzoa , too. I removed Thoughtcast because I think it is not good in this version with such a high mana count and FOW because the U count is too low.


// Creatures
4 [ALA] Etherium Sculptor
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer
3 [CO] Esperzoa
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
1 [ALA] Sigil of Distinction

[scrumdogg]

Your blue count (with FoW) would be 19, well within the accepted parameters for the card. The question becomes which two of three card sets are then most valuable - Chalice, Force of Will, and/or Tangle Wire? Does having only 3 Esperzoa with no protection make Tangle Wire better than Force of Will? Chalice obviously should stay, especially with a Trinket Mage build, but which of the other two helps the deck more? Especially with no draw (and Tangle Wire not fetchable via Trinket Mage)...

[idraleo]

Probably i' ll try something like this. After some test i' ve noticed a decent blue count to deal with Forces and Mox, and moreover that Mox is the best card to have with an Esperzoa in play since it keeps it alive each turn.

// Lands
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
3 [MR] Vault of Whispers
3 [MR] Glimmervoid

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [CO] Esperzoa
4 [MR] Somber Hoverguard
3 [LRW] Mulldrifter
4 [ALA] Etherium Sculptor

// Spells
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FD] Cranial Plating

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [JU] Cabal Therapy

[GGoober]

I'm very excited with Shards/Conflux's addition to this N&D deck. In fact, it's going to be my pet deck once Conflux is out. It seems we get a lot of strong addition in Esperzoa, and the newly rumored card:

(U)(3) Faerie Mechanist
Artifact Faerie Artificer
Flying
When ~ CIP, look at the top 3 cards of your library, reveal an artifact card amongst them and put it in your hand, the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.
2/2

It's not spoiled yet but it's in discussion on MTGS

If this is true, it seems to the Mulldrifter version of Faerie Stompy for this deck. It's an artifact as well, that pumps and gets pumped by Master, and is blue, which feeds to FoW. It draws to some extend, and has evasion (flying) and I think would be a great inclusion in this deck.

For late game stalls, Esperzoa + Mechanist = pretty good card advantage lol

[Maëlig]

Anyway, even if it still taps it is pretty strong to have a permanent Tangle Wire.

I came to the same conclusion. Tangle wire is already decent imo in classic affinity, even better in the affi/FS hybrid, and with esperzoa it becomes a must-include. In such a build I would also run ornithopter, seeing how it goes well with esperzoa, wire and of course plating.



4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [P2] Island (3)
4 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Etherium Sculptor
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer
3 [CO] Esperzoa
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
1 [ALA] Sigil of Distinction

I think mox diamond makes the deck too unstable, even more so than chrome mox with a low (non-artifact) blue count. I'd rather go with something like that :

// Lands
6 [10E] Island (3)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [CO] Esperzoa
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
1 [ALA] Sigil of Distinction

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I've long wanted to find a home for Tangle Wire in Legacy, it's true.

Faerie Machinist seems amazing in this deck, except that now the once throwaway "nonartifact" line on Chrome Mox is becoming a ridiculous pain in the ass.

Could always drop the Chalice and Mox and add Aether Vial, maybe Ponder. But it reduces the answers to combo.

[GGoober]

If Machinist is spoiled as it is, I will definitely try to tweak a list with Mox Diamonds instead of Chrome Mox over it. Machinist seems too good to pass, and this deck would finally take a new Blue-Affinity look if we resolve the annoying Chrome/Diamond/Petal issue.

Perhaps, with Esperzoa + Machinist + Tanglewire, it will serve to go more for a board control development? Machinist would be able to pump Cranial Plating AND Master, and has evasion which is again great with Plating and Sigil.

I personally, would account for the loss of Chrome Mox by focusing on more 2cc Turn 1 plays. With 3 Chrome Moxes, it's not that easy to hit 2U on Turn 1 anyway. Maybe forgo on explosive turn 1 plays and focus on turn 1 locks? Right now we have Ravager, Plating, Chalice@1. Other ideas to consider would be Turn1 Winter Orb, which synergizes well with our 2mana producing lands and Tangle-wire/Winter Orb synergy against the opponents.

This is my test-list with the Machinist as it's spoiled right now:


// Lands
8 [10E] Island (3)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [CO] Esperzoa
3 [CO] Faerie Machinist
3 [ALA] Etherium Sculptor
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
2 [4E] Winter Orb
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
1 [ALA] Sigil of Distinction (win more, I like Pithing Needle better in this slot)
__________________

We have a total of of 37 artifact cards! We have 17 Turn-1 plays off tombs and cities, and we have 14 Blue cards other (18 including the 4FOWs).

I personally have been playing MUDStax (a list that I've ported from Vintage), and Sphere of Resistance is a good addition, and Powder Keg is one of the stronger cards in Legacy right now (kills goyfs/noughts/bobs, and unaffecting your creatures except ravager which you just sac for the modular counters on a flying Esperzoa or Machinist) but the synergy of Winter Orb + Tangle Wire + Esperzoa seems too hard to pass. This deck would have a great mid-game. I'm honestly a little iffy with the FOWs. They just seem a lonely 4 counter in the game. Perhaps it's worth it to remove them and focus on board position and advantage? Trinispheres?

I would personally love to run this list, which focuses on Turn 1 2cc plays, and developing the board of 2U and 3U spells on Turn 2/3:

// Lands
8 [10E] Island (3)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [CO] Esperzoa
3 [CO] Faerie Machinist
3 [ALA] Etherium Sculptor
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
3 [UL] Powder Keg
2 [5D] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
1 [ALA] Sigil of Distinction (win more, I like Pithing Needle better in this slot)

We lose the card advantage from Thoughtcast, but we gain them in the mid-game through Trinket Mage + Faerie. I personally never liked Thoughtcast in Affinity since it nets 1 card, which maybe both crappy. Tutor effects with Trinket Mage + Faerie gives a better CA quality.

20 lands should be enough for consistent 2 lands by turn 2. 8 Cities and tombs allow for explosive Turn 1 plays with 2cc spells. A resolved Sculptor will speed up the deck alot, allowing it to play with the higher cc spells with 2-3 lands alone.

[Chaz_the_hunter]

Esperzoa + Chalice means that you can put out chalice @ 1 or 2 and then pick it up when you want to play a 1-2 drop, then put it back out again

Artificer is auto better than Mulldrifter, combos with Esperzoa, and works well with sculptor and MoE. I would cut the Myr Enforcer for it instead of the Hoverguards, but thats my opinion

What about playing Thorn of Amethyst either main or SD. It does the same as Sphere, but doesnt stop ur creatures and is negated by Sculptor, and u can do the esperzoa trick too

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

This deck looks really fun actually, I've been debating what Legacy deck to pick up for a while now and this seems to be a top contender of what looks the most tats to me (along with Quinn, some form or other of Stax, and a few others... I like artifacts)

Anyways, I was wondering, about the potential white splash I've seen a couple people mention:
1.) How do Ethersworn Canonist and Argivian Find sound? I'm way less sold on the Find personally... Canonist seems like a perfect match for this deck.

2.) Is there any way to splash another color without adding X Tundra? (I'm trying to keep my potential Legacy deck on somewhat of a budget... one reason why I don't want to choose a deck that packs a bunch of duals and fetch-lands) Would Glimmervoid be at all viable in this deck??

3.) What is the primary reason for the white splash in the first place? (Obvs. it adds the awesome Ancient Den tech... but seriously folks) Better permanent removal? Ethersworn Canonist? (I'm guessing this is probably the only real reason)... Main-deck or sideboard for the Canonist?? Would Meddling Mage be a viable sideboard card against Combo??

Other Questions and Card Suggestions:

4.) One more card occurred to me that's so cool with Esperzoa that I thought I had to mention it: Ankh of Mishra. Sure, it sets you back 2 mana a turn (or one mana with Etherium Sculptor), but it gives all your opponent's lands "take 2 damage when this comes into play" and then you just return it during your upkeep so it doesn't affect your land drop.

Too cutesy? I realize it's best against control so it may be a win-more in this deck, but still... I Lol'ed.

5.) One more suggestion: If this deck does add Aether Vial, would Standstill be worth considering (probably instead of Chalice, I would think)? It seems that between all the cheap creatures and the 4 Mishra's Factories, we could maybe be able to use the so-called 'best card draw in Legacy' in here pretty well, provided we were running Vial.

6.) And... Probably my best suggestion yet: Academy Ruins! Hooray! Although it's sort of slow, it's on-color, it recurs basically everything in the deck, it could potentially allow you to run Mox Diamond instead of Chrome Mox to have more things to pitch to the Moxen with a way to recur your artifact lands if necessary, it's not a huge deal in this deck that it doesn't provide colored mana, and it plays shenanigans with Engineered Explosives if you run it.

I mean, come on. How is having a way to recur each and every one of your threats for thre cost of tapping three lands not worth the inclusion of at least 1X Academy Ruins??????????????????

[TheDarkshineKnight]

I've long wanted to find a home for Tangle Wire in Legacy, it's true.

Faerie Machinist seems amazing in this deck, except that now the once throwaway "nonartifact" line on Chrome Mox is becoming a ridiculous pain in the ass.

Could always drop the Chalice and Mox and add Aether Vial, maybe Ponder. But it reduces the answers to combo.

You can always dedicate your sideboard to Combo matchups, so long as the addition of Machinist improves your game against Control and Aggro.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

(Just because I wanted to bump this thread back to the top of the list... And badger y'all into giving me feedback on my favorite card idea for this deck.)

Academy Ruins, yo! That card HAS to be worth at least one slot in this deck... Hell, I'd consider running two, even though it is legendary. It just seems that having a built-in safety to get back one of your marquee threats or a Chalice or Tangle Wire that the opponent managed to blow up is too sweet to pass up...

And don't forget, even though Ruins is pretty slow recursion by itself, you could always follow up with TfK or Ponder or what-have-you to get the card back immediately.

Someone, tell me this isn't an awesome idea.

@Infamous Bear Assassin: Will you please post an updated version of this deck with Esperzoa and Faerie Mechanist in it, (assuming of course they're printed as they've been spoiled...)? Thanks man, I'm digging the deck ideas you have on here.

One more idea, more on the crazy side this time: Would Lodestone Bauble be worth space in the sideboard as protection against land destruction? We're running a lot of nonbasics, and the Bauble doubles as a free artifact to bounce to Esperzoa... (which is now officially spoiled on the WotC website exactly how we thought it would be *pumps the fist*)
http://http://wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/conflux/spoiler (http://wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/conflux/spoiler)

*Sorry to clog up the forums, I'm gonna stop posting for a few days on this thread... I've just been really freakin' excited about building this deck, forgive my incessancy. I don't want to drive anyone away by blathering on.

Please learn to use the EDIT function. Thanks. ~Nightmare

[xsockmonkeyx]

Lodestone Bauble only works on basic lands FYI.

[mort-]

I know this might take it into a more control'ish way, but why don't we add In the Eye of Chaos? Seems like a good card together with Tangle Wire.

Edit:
A few thoughts about the deck:

What I don't like are the 4 FoW. They seem a bit random, therefor I think they could be cut. What I also think is not needed is Ravager. I do agree that the card is very strong, I just think that it isn't that strong in this deck.
I really don't want to sacc something in this deck to Ravager, specially when we got the Esperzoa + X Engine running.
Next point is Trinket Mage. While I do think that fetching Chalice or Needle / Sigil (or a Land) is strong, I don't think that we need Trinketmage just for that. Also, he is no Artifact, so we can't pump our Master with it, nor can we return him to our hand with the Machinist.

So, another thought:
Ornithopter: While it sucks alone, it pumps Master, Plating + it's flying and doesn't cost a thing. In the worst case we could just tap it for Tangle Wire.
Grindstone + Painter: Would imho be a good inclusion. They both pump + it would be another point for playing Trinket Mage. Will in the most cases be win more ein think.
AEther Vial: This is imho a very good inclusion. We don't play (much) counterspells, so it would help to sneak our critters ingame. It's also great with Tangle Wire and Winter Orb.

mort-

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Lordy, tell me I didn't kill this thread with all my ramblings-on... Anyone still thinking about this deck??

[puppektion]

I've seen it running about on MWS a bit... however, it seems like the manabase is a bit fragile... things like blood moon, B2B and price of progress seem to hose it too well. What do you do against those?

[hi-val]

Solemn Simulacrum? Plays nice with Esperzoa too.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think the list is going to need to be overhauled with Conflux, but in what ways I'm not sure. So I'm waiting before even beginning to test. What comes out in Conflux would determine a lot about this deck's viability for the GP.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I think the list is going to need to be overhauled with Conflux, but in what ways I'm not sure. So I'm waiting before even beginning to test. What comes out in Conflux would determine a lot about this deck's viability for the GP.

Since Esperzoa is spoiled already, what are the things we're waiting to see about? Faerie Mechanist? I mean, I understand that card is pretty nice, but am I missing something about Conflux that's gonna mean overhauling the whole deck?
:eyebrow:

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Not to be a pain in the ass or anything, but now that the Conflux spoiler is complete (http://mtgsalvation.com/conflux-spoiler.html)... I was wondering if any minds more familiar than mine with the Legacy metagame have been moving forward on this deck??? Because I really like the idea, I think Esperzoa is a bomb if it can find the right deck, and I think with the right amount of tweaking, this could be that deck...

So I sincerely hope to see more activity around here, I'm going to try to make a Legacy GP Qualifier or something similar this March, and I hope this deck tests well so I can validate buying it... I just want to make an aggro/control deck that doesn't require me to buy a mess of dual lands, and this seemed like a promising developmental deck.

Let's get back to conversating, fellas, it's been too long.

EDIT: Here's a question, just as a small fire-starter: Does Sanctum Gargoyle seem better than Faerie Mechanist to anyone else, since we're already running Brainstorm and/or Thirst for Knowledge? It seems especially tech with TfK, since we won't have to fear dumping an artifact that's going to be good in a few turns, or we can use it to reanimate Esperzoa.

*THE WHITE SPLASH: Personally, I think the white splash is worth it, because Ethersworn Canonist hoses much more than just combo, it also hits a laundry list of archetypes in the nuts, from most other aggro decks since they can't play multiple threats per turn, ranging to even obscure interactions such as Dreadstill (since if it goes uncountered, they can no longer Stifle their 'Nought), a lot of control lists (since they can only counter one of your spells a turn), and many others. The point about Canonist is not that it's inexorable, it's admittedly very fragile, but then again so are most of our creatures. Canonist is a must-answer for most decks, and that draws their removal away from our bigger beaters, which is awesome, because we want to beat face. I'd love to hear more debate and playtest results about main-deck Canonists...

*Also, does anyone think Spell Snare and/or Daze are worth considering for the main-deck? Force of Will seems a little lonely as the only counter-spell, but it may be enough.

*One More Thing: what about Intuition in some of the draw slots? It's pretty dope as extra shuffle for Brainstorm, and tutoring is pretty much never bad. Anyone think this has potential??

[idraleo]

Canonist is dumb. Play some extended if you wanna feel it on your skin ^^

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I'm going to leave off with a decklist for critique, just to take a stab at it, and in order to make my comments a little more salient so people may think the white splash would be worth it...

Deep Blue, Hint of White:

2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Esperzoa
4 Somber Hoverguard
4 Master of Etherium
4 Myr Enforcer

4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cranial Plating
4 Intuition

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Den
2 Glimmervoid
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island

*Obviously, the exclusion of Trinket Mage is debatable, I considered taking out Myr Enforcer, but I felt like the extra beats would be worth it. And it seems like since space is so tight, it's hard to provide him with a good main-deck package, since Chalice may be irrelevant by the time we play Trinket Mage, or even worse, the turn after we play him.

*Also, Intuition is probably going to get shot down, but I just want to provide the argument that although it doesn't provide card advantage, it would give this deck excellent consistency, and it would be especially awesome if you were lucky enough to have the Academy Ruins backup for it. Basically, the argument is, rather than get a one-or-two-card advantage of random cards from TfK or Thoughtcast, why not just get the card you wanted?

**Or else, for a more standard, mono-Blue take, peep this:

Truly Blue Deep Blue

2 Etherium Sculptor
4 Somber Hoverguard
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Esperzoa
4 Master of Etherium

4 Chalice
4 F.o.W.
4 Cranial Plating
4 T.f.K.
4 Tangle Wire

4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Blinkmoth Nexus (better than Factory with Plating)
1 Academy Ruins
5 Islands (could run -2, +2 Darksteel Citadel, but the mana seems shaky and vulnerable to non-basic hate otherwise, even with the indestructibility)

*I'm willing to believe, after further examination, that the mono-blue is probably the stronger version, but I think adding in some Gemstone Mines/ Glimmervoids for Canonist out of the SB might still be a good meta call if one was expecting combo.

[Aj-capra]

I prefer to play thoughtcast than intuition/tfk, because with intu/tfk our cards suffer extirpate.

Canonist is a good choice, because in sb we can play jotun verus ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and ichorid anc cop red too. Its possible to play mage in sb too, but it died easily.
We can play 3 defense grid too becuase we play 4 istant only.

[idraleo]

Chalice + Fow is all this deck needs against comboish. Ethersworn is a dead card in each other matchup, a dumb Grizzly Bear that won' t probably attack or defend. The most attractive card to value by playing white is some maindeck Oblivion Ring, nothing more.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

@ idraleo & Aj-capra: First of all, I think it's interesting how different y'all's opinions on the white splash are, and I'm glad to see some discussion again to get us all thinking more about how to build this deck.

Let me offer my opinion on the points y'all raise:

@ Ethersworn Canonist: I'm prepared to believe I may be over-valuing this as a main-deck card, but I think it has game against a few other decks besides just combo, although granted not nearly as much. It could slow some other aggro decks down, albeit slightly. Sometimes this may force their removal, which is pretty good for us, since Canonist would be the least of our threats as far as beaters. Granted, most control decks would laugh at Canonist during the early game, but if you can get it through later it actually becomes a decent top-deck against them. Also, it provides the slight bonus against counterspells that they will only be able to counter one of your spells a turn with Canonist on the board, which would let us bait their counters. (I think this really is probably a side-board card at best now that we pick it apart a bit, leaving the white splash even more up in the air in my mind)

@ Oblivion Ring: I think this might actually be a viable main-deck card if white makes the cut, and I think it would probably be better than Canonist. That said, I think this deck still needs a two-drop creature to play first turn off a Mox, even if it's just Etherium Sculptor, because otherwise our first turn blows without Mox+Ancient Tomb, which you don't have a high probability to get in the opening grip.

*Speaking of two-drops, I sort of missed the boat on why everyone has written off Ravager for this deck. I think playing eight two-drop creatures would improve our aggressiveness, because we're really only likely to see one piece of acceleration on an average hand, and I think Chalice for two isn't always the correct first-turn play. A lot of people say Ravager isn't worth it because he forces you to aggressively sacrifice your board, but I figure it like this: We're already playing a board that's highly prone to multiple types of removal, since a lot of our lands and creatures are also artifacts, and we run very few basic lands. Ravager capitalizes on this by either growing from all the stuff of ours that dies or by forcing the removal out of their hand. I don't think he forces us to sac when we don't want to just to be effective...

@ Thoughtcast / Intuition / TfK: I agree that Extirpate is a weakness against Intuition and TfK, but I don't think it's all that serious of one. With Intuition, you're usually tutoring a three-pack of the same card I would think, so you get at least one copy of the card you needed even if the other three bite an Extirpate. Not optimal, but not game-ending, I wouldn't think... And with TfK, I think it's just a matter of being careful what you discard. Honestly, I really wouldn't worry that much about most graveyard-based hate when playing this deck though. We run a lot of threats, about the worst thing that they could Extirpate would probably be a Cranial Plating. But assuming you Intuitioned for it, you still have that one copy, and if you TfK'ed into Plating, why in fuck's sake did you throw it away???

*Thoughtcast is decent, but seems sort of lackluster to me. The thing is, it only nets one card, it's a sorcery, meaning you can't try to draw into FoW in response to their spell, and if they do a thorough job of keeping your permanents off the board, it sucks even more, because it costs more the less board presence you're maintaining. I just wish I could think of something else with the necessary oomph though... I suppose we could always twerk around with Gifts or FoF, but four mana seems sort of pricey for us, and Gifts would be a bitch to accomodate. But if you ask me, playing Intuition at the end of an opponent's turn for Cranial Plating is showing some teeth, son.

*Here's one completely out of left-field: Any sense in splashing red for Shrapnel Blast, possibly Fire//Ice, and the ubiquitous red artifact land? Shrapnel Blast is crazy reach, which could perhaps capitalize on this deck's quick beats. Fire//Ice probably wouldn't find its way in, but it helps keep the board clear and provides a teeny bit of reach, and the Ice side taps down blockers or keeps the opponent off a color for a turn while cantripping. That's not too bad, right?

[Elfrago]

@ Thoughtcast / Intuition / TfK: I agree that Extirpate is a weakness against Intuition and TfK, but I don't think it's all that serious of one. With Intuition, you're usually tutoring a three-pack of the same card I would think, so you get at least one copy of the card you needed even if the other three bite an Extirpate.


Extirpate removes the card from your hand too, so, unless you resolve inuition and then without passing priority play the card you got (not likely in a mana-thight deck like this one) , extirpate nails all four of them.

I agree with you that this is not something you should worry about since, in a non-graveyard dependant aggro deck packing chalice, extirpate is the last of your concerns.

[Aj-capra]

If you are chalice at 1 in to play extirpate isn't a problem, but otherwise it is (for me).

The problem is to decide whit which color to splash this deck.

Little analysis

black splash : cabal terapy in side and there's the possibility to switch cranial (this is good)

white splash : canonist for add lock, oblivion ring and disenchant (vs blood moon or pithing)

red spalsh : fire/ice and Shrapnel Blast

I think who black splash is better than red and white, because another card very very hard versus grave deck may be : Planar Void (http://magiccards.info/us/en/149.html). It died ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, loam, ichorid. Obv academy ruins loses his power, but it isn't a big problem.

We can play 3c this deck too, but the slots are very very small.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

If you are chalice at 1 in to play extirpate isn't a problem, but otherwise it is (for me).

The problem is to decide whit which color to splash this deck.

Little analysis

black splash : cabal terapy in side and there's the possibility to switch cranial (this is good)

white splash : canonist for add lock, oblivion ring and disenchant (vs blood moon or pithing)

red spalsh : fire/ice and Shrapnel Blast

I think who black splash is better than red and white, because another card very very hard versus grave deck may be : Planar Void (http://magiccards.info/us/en/149.html). It died ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, loam, ichorid. Obv academy ruins loses his power, but it isn't a big problem.

We can play 3c this deck too, but the slots are very very small.

Well, you forgot to mention the option for a super-secret-tech Green splash: four Tarmogoyfs. Seriously though folks...

White Splash: Don't forget that if they have Blood Moon out, there's no way we can pop off an O-Ring or Disenchant unless we run (ugh) basic Plains...

Black Splash: I think black is a bad option to splash if the only cards we would get from it would be Cabal Therapy and Planar Void... Mostly, the problem is that we want Chalice@1, so it's not a hot look to side in spells at CC=1. Also, a lonely suite of Cabal Therapies seems lonely and ineffective, because discard isn't really our method of disruption, and we wouldn't run other reveal effects like Duress to make sure the first instance of Therapy hits. The ability to switch Plating as an instant is sexy, but I think we'd be dreaming to think we can reliably hit two mana of our splash color without overextending our mana-base to the breaking point.

*Personally, I think the red splash is worth testing. I'm not really sure what sideboard answers it would give the deck to compensate though, and I think that's the main thing we should look for in the splash color: What weaknesses does it allow our sideboard to address that we couldn't address playing mono-Blue??? I think unless there's something really compelling out there in the four other colors, the deck is probably safer as a mono-color build.

[Aj-capra]

Right, green has tarmo and grip (but hmmm).

Cabal and planar died for chalice at 1, but if I've in my first hand chalice and planar/cabal, I prefer to play planar or cabal.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Right, green has tarmo and grip (but hmmm).

Cabal and planar died for chalice at 1, but if I've in my first hand chalice and planar/cabal, I prefer to play planar or cabal.

The point is though, Cabal Therapy is generally considered inferior to Thoughtseize if you're not packing additional discard, because you have know way of knowing if you'll hit something in their hand the first time around. This is why it's better in dedicated discard decks that pack Duress or Thoughtseize so you'll already know what card to name for Therapy.

The main thing is this: I don't see how four discard spells would supplement our disruption package better than, say, four Daze. Discard is incredibly reliant on being played during the early game to be most effective, as is Daze. But discard has the additional problem in this deck of being off-color: you need to hit a black mana source to even be able to play it, and you'll have less of these than blue sources. I think discard would honestly be a strictly-worse form of disruption for us than Daze... And no one seems to find the space to even put Daze in this list.

*The reason I think red or white are the best splash colors, is that they enable us to have removal for problem permanents. O-Ring is a pretty good catch-all, and three mana is about right for our curve. On the other hand, Shrapnel Blast along with however many Fire//Ice there's room to squeeze in would give us MAD REACH, as well as emergency creature-kill. I think the best direction to look as far as black would be towards awesome removal cards like Smother or Slaughter Pact.

...I'm not trying to be overly critical here; I'm willing to believe there are some great black cards that could be splashed in this deck, but I'm pretty sure Therapy and Planar Void aren't the droids we're looking for. Also, Planar Void seems pretty unnecessary since we could much more easily pack Trinket Mage and bring in Crypt or Relic from the sideboard.

[Aj-capra]

The point is though, Cabal Therapy is generally considered inferior to Thoughtseize if you're not packing additional discard, because you have know way of knowing if you'll hit something in their hand the first time around. This is why it's better in dedicated discard decks that pack Duress or Thoughtseize so you'll already know what card to name for Therapy.

The main thing is this: I don't see how four discard spells would supplement our disruption package better than, say, four Daze. But no one seems to find the space to even put Daze in this list.

*The reason I think red or white are the best splash colors, is that they enable us to have removal for problem permanents. O-Ring is a pretty good catch-all, and three mana is about right for our curve. On the other hand, Shrapnel Blast along with however many Fire//Ice there's room to squeeze in would give us MAD REACH.

...I'm not trying to be overly critical here; I'm willing to believe there are some great black cards that could be splashed in this deck, but I'm pretty sure those aren't them. Also, Planar Void seems pretty unnecessary since we could much more easily pack Trinket Mage and bring in Crypt or Relic from the sideboard.

With trinket mage you can find : chalice (md) and relic/crpy/pithind (sb cards). But to take up 4 slots isnt bad? I don't know!! I haven't test trinket. Oky you can find airtifacts . lands too, but I don't sure the trinket's power.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Dude, Trinket Mage is a pretty prevalent card in Legacy these days, if you don't believe me, go take a look at some other mono-blue or mostly-blue decks. I think that the only problem with Trinket Mage in this deck is that space is pretty tight, so we don't have a lot of room to put a package for him in the deck.

We run two cards that we can already get with T-Mage, but the problem is that we wouldn't want to. Both Chrome Mox and Chalice are pretty worthless tutor targets for three mana, because they're cards we really want to be playing in the early game and not the mid. However, I can see situations where you'd want to tutor Chalice, for example, having Trinket Mage in your opening grip would allow you to keep a Chalice-less hand as long as it had acceleration, unless you need Chalice@1 on the first turn to be able to win.

Here's a list of cards this deck could put in a Trinket Mage package:

*Engineered Explosives- good mass removal, especially if we run a 2nd color. And it recurs with Academy Ruins, should we choose to run Ruins.

*Tormod's Crypt/ Relic of Progenitus- Obviously, these are sideboard cards unless your meta is infested... not sure which is right for this deck, probably Crypt to help us cheat out an Affinity play and then go for the 'yard in one fell swoop without paying extra mana. However, cantripping is nice, and apart from Academy Ruins, we have no real use for our graveyard. And I've noticed a lot of people forgo Ruins in their lists, so without Ruins, Relic would be a 100% one-sided effect with cantrip.

*Ornithopter- this may be too cute, but in a deck that runs four Cranial Platings and zero Ornithopters, I think it may be worthwhile to squeeze one into the Trinket Mage package to be able to tutor a flier to wear Plating.

*Pithing Needle- this one is especially dope with Esperzoa, as we can bounce it to neuter whatever activated ability we want. I think this is a pretty dank possibility, almost as cool as the self-bouncing Tangle Wire idea, and using fewer slots presuming that we already run Mage.

*Aether Spellbomb/ Pyrite Spellbomb (if we splash red)- these become a lot better if we run Academy Ruins, although this is probably to slow to work. But with Ruins, these would be recurring bounce/burn.

...So yeah. Basically, Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, and Tormod's Crypt (or Relic) are the most compelling reason to run Trinket Mage. How useful would these cards be to us is the question????????

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So, no disrespect to Aj-capra, but perhaps someone else could contribute to this conversation as well? It makes me sad to think that it seems no one is seriously considering this deck. :cry:

I mean, if this deck idea completely sucks and I'm the only one who hasn't gotten the memo, could someone at least fill me in on why?:cry: :cry:

[idraleo]

By playing the deck in those days, i' ve noticed that the great problem is to focus on the right direction. Some games i ' ve felt like i was playing a slow affinity version, or that i was playing a version of FS that needs to get "comboish" with esperzoa, tangle and at least 2 Sculptor to did something relevant on the board. After test i definitively go to Jitte as my main equipment, Plating is sexy but Jitte is often more relevant on the board, and adds percentage against goblin and other aggro, and obv burn.
My last doubt is on playing or not Moxes: there' s too much situation where that card is unplayable since we play too much blue artifact..

[raharu]

A note on the Red splash: Pyroblasts/ REB in the side to fight permission, against control you could possibly board out Chalices, and Shattering Spree for the Affinity match is also an option, since they're so much more aggressive than you so it's spot removal that hedges Chalice, and Pyroclasm/ Firespout for aggro as well. Red makes for an interesting splash, to say the least.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

A note on the Red splash: Pyroblasts/ REB in the side to fight permission, against control you could possibly board out Chalices, and Shattering Spree for the Affinity match is also an option, since they're so much more aggressive than you so it's spot removal that hedges Chalice, and Pyroclasm/ Firespout for aggro as well. Red makes for an interesting splash, to say the least.

Honestly, after examining the pro's and con's of Ethersworn Canonist pretty extensively (in my mind, I haven't been playtesting this list because I have yet to make the investment of buying the cards... I'm a cheap ass, what can I say?)... I think red makes a much more attractive splash color. Shrapnel Blast doesn't necessarily make this deck pure aggro, but it seems to me that it would go a long way to making our clock a lot more threatening. Five damage for two mana and pretty much any one of our random permanents is pretty significant reach.

I'm still not sure what the power level of Fire//Ice would be in this deck, but it seems worth thinking about at least.

As far as Shattering Spree in the board though, I feel like we're better off with Energy Flux or Hurkyll's Recall, because the mana base doesn't seem like it's likely to yield double-red. I'm all for two-for-ones, but since we have such an incentive to run artifact-lands and other non-basics, it seems pretty unlikely that we'll hit two mana of our splash color. Honestly, I would hesitate to use a spell that requires double-blue, to say nothing of the potential splash color.

Random fire-starter: If we're splashing red in an attempt to be more aggressive, the question comes to mind whether or not we'd gain anything by using Lightning Bolt... But I'd have to say probably not, unless someone else presents a strong argument for it.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Here's a potential list using the red splash and quite a few of y'all's proposed changes, let me know what y'all think:

"Deep Purple":

4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Esperzoa
3 Somber Hoverguard
4 Master of Etherium
1 Ornithopter
4 Trinket Mage (for potential sideboard plan & sorry-assed main-deck Ornithopter-fetching/mana-fixing... or maybe Myr Enforcer for the stronger beater?)

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
4 Shrapnel Blast
2 Cranial Plating
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tangle Wire

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Gemstone Mine
5 Island
1 Mountain
4 Great Furnace


... The mana probably needs tweaking, honestly it looks for shit, I'm still not sold on removing the Chrome Mox, because I think we need consistent acceleration but I think this list would have to squeeze in 4 Fire//Ice to have consistent things to pitch to Chrome Mox... Anyways, I just put the lands together on the fly without much consideration. More importantly, what do y'all think of the creature/spell suite?

[Aj-capra]

So, no disrespect to Aj-capra, but perhaps someone else could contribute to this conversation as well? It makes me sad to think that it seems no one is seriously considering this deck. :cry:

I mean, if this deck idea completely sucks and I'm the only one who hasn't gotten the memo, could someone at least fill me in on why?:cry: :cry:

sigh sigh :cry: :cry: :tongue:

If I play red splash my sideboard may be:

3 x Tormod's Crypt
3 x Echoing Truth
3 x Pithing Needle
3 x Sharp. Blast
3 x Arcan Laboratory

Red md may be : fire/ice only.

And as Idraleo I prefer jitte than cranial for Idraleo's reasons.

@edit : Just read last post. Why two cranial and two jitte? Isnt good to play 3 jitte or 3 cranial??

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

sigh sigh :cry: :cry: :tongue:

If I play red splash my sideboard may be:

3 x Tormod's Crypt
3 x Echoing Truth
3 x Pithing Needle
3 x Sharp. Blast
3 x Arcan Laboratory

Red md may be : fire/ice only.

And as Idraleo I prefer jitte than cranial for Idraleo's reasons.

@edit : Just read last post. Why two cranial and two jitte? Isnt good to play 3 jitte or 3 cranial??

The list I posted is pretty rough. I personally don't like to run more than two Jitte though, because it's so dead in multiple copies. I'd do a 3 Cranial / 1 or 2 Jitte split, but I wouldn't do 3 Jitte/ 1 Cranial because Jitte is legendary. And Cranial kicks ass with flying creatures, so I tried to use as many as we can. The Trinket Mage/ Myr Enforcer thing seems like the biggest question to me about the list I proposed. (Besides the real biggest question, which is whether the deck is any good or not?) And the second biggest question is whether or not to try to use Chrome Mox for more reliable acceleration. After all, our curve starts on the high side, and 4 Ancient Tombs aren't going to fix our problems all by their lonesome.

Also, why do you think Fire//Ice is the stronger main-deck card than Shrapnel Blast?:eyebrow:

[Aj-capra]

Blast make 2x1 (you lose a cards and an airtifact) , fire/ice not.

Fire/ice has two ability and versus aggro is better because you can destroy 2 creatures.
Obv versus tombst. blast is better than fire/ice, but vs phyrexian dread. fire/ice is strongher.

Blast may be a finisher (5 damages are good), but im not sure than his power versus fire/ice.

I haven't tested blast yet!!

Andrea.-

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

By playing the deck in those days, i' ve noticed that the great problem is to focus on the right direction. Some games i ' ve felt like i was playing a slow affinity version, or that i was playing a version of FS that needs to get "comboish" with esperzoa, tangle and at least 2 Sculptor to did something relevant on the board. After test i definitively go to Jitte as my main equipment, Plating is sexy but Jitte is often more relevant on the board, and adds percentage against goblin and other aggro, and obv burn.
My last doubt is on playing or not Moxes: there' s too much situation where that card is unplayable since we play too much blue artifact..

This seems like one of the more intelligent lines of debate going on, so I'm gonna try to intelligently respond to it:

I think the right direction for this deck to focus on is Esperzoa, and also probably Tangle Wire.

Side Note: I'm confused whether or not we would have to tap any permanents if we returned T-wire to our hand with Esperzoa, after choosing for Esperzoa's ability to trigger first, since they both say "beginning of upkeep"... can anyone clarify?

As far as playing Chrome Mox, I think the best way to go about having enough spells to pitch to it is to go with 4 Trinket Mage & 4 Somber Hoverguard in the creature base, and also using a blue draw spell such as TfK or Thoughtcast, so as to have enough chances of having a card to pitch to it.

Does anyone have any sense of whether or not the red splash is worth it?
*Potential cards to use in red splash:
-Shrapnel Blast
-Fire//Ice
-Red Elemental Blast/ Pyroblast (Chalice dys-synergy?)
-Browbeat(??) *this could be hilarious alongside Shrapnel Blast, methinks

*Is this deck so vulnerable to land-destruction that Crucible of Worlds might make sense in the sideboard?

Also, (and I think this might be a hot idea), would Trinisphere do anything for us, either main-deck to supplement Chalice, or as a sideboard option??

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

If y'all will permit me one deck-list that's pretty far out from left field from what we've been talking about here...

Deep Blue Stax

3 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of ye Olde Voide

2 Mana Vortex
4 Thirst for Knowledge

3 Esperzoa
3 Master of Etherium
4 Tezzeret the Seeker

4 Wasteland
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Island
4 Mox Diamond

If nothing else, I just think that would be a fucking fun deck.

[mort-]

If y'all will permit me one deck-list that's pretty far out from left field from what we've been talking about here...

Deep Blue Stax

3 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of ye Olde Voide

2 Mana Vortex
4 Thirst for Knowledge

3 Esperzoa
3 Master of Etherium
4 Tezzeret the Seeker

4 Wasteland
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Island
4 Mox Diamond

If nothing else, I just think that would be a fucking fun deck.

I don't see why you would run 4 Tezzerets. He doesn't beat. He just untaps a few turns, then you can fetch an artifact. If you fetch directly, you'll almost kill him (except for Chalice / MDiamond ofc).
So to fetch them I would consider Trinket Mage.
What I think is stronger in this case is Faerie Mechanist. He gives you an artifact, bounces with Zoa and is a 2/2 body. He also pumps Master and gets cheaper with Sculptor (which I would play for sure, he just seems too strong in this deck).

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I don't see why you would run 4 Tezzerets. He doesn't beat. He just untaps a few turns, then you can fetch an artifact. If you fetch directly, you'll almost kill him (except for Chalice / MDiamond ofc).
So to fetch them I would consider Trinket Mage.
What I think is stronger in this case is Faerie Mechanist. He gives you an artifact, bounces with Zoa and is a 2/2 body. He also pumps Master and gets cheaper with Sculptor (which I would play for sure, he just seems too strong in this deck).

Tezzeret doesn't beat? Have you fucking read his ultimate ability? And you only have to pump him up one turn to use it, essentially giving you back two of the mana you used to play Tezz in the first place. Seriously. No offense meant, but it seems like you're missing the boat on what Tezz can actually accomplish. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Didn't see the Faerie Machinist idea in your post until now. I think the card is decent, but he's a little slow. TfK gives us basically the same effect for one mana cheaper without providing a body... And even with Crucible as backup, we could get hit by non-basic land hate in some instances... Basically, I think Faerie Machinist is a little lackluster without Etherium Sculptor, and I think Sculptor is pretty janky because he's so small in a deck full of skyscraper-sized robots.

*Also, I have a rules question: If you use Tezzeret's ultimate ability, will Master of Etherium still get +1/+1 for each artifact as well as becoming a 5/5?? I'm confused on how the layering would work.

[Azania]

....

*Also, I have a rules question: If you use Tezzeret's ultimate ability, will Master of Etherium still get +1/+1 for each artifact as well as becoming a 5/5?? I'm confused on how the layering would work.

Master of Eterium becomes 5/5 and the other artifacts become 6/6

[Melman]

Alright, a little bit of a necro here, but...

I was going to play this at the GP, but it doesn't look like Im going to be able to go, so figured I might as well post. Ive done extensive testing against alot of decks, and alot of tuning. I then played a large amount of FS, both irl and on mws (le sigh), to compare, and my conclusion is basically that this deck is a more aggressive fairie stompy, with a higher power level. Basically, I'd almost go as far as to say its a better Fairie stompy.

Alright before the flames here's the list and explanation
// Lands
2 Ancient Tomb
9 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 Master of Etherium
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Esperzoa
2 Faerie Mechanist
4 Myr Enforcer

// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cranial Plating
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Thoughtcast
3 Tangle Wire

// Sideboard
4 Propaganda
4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Back to Basics

So. It's not drastically different from the direction people have been trying. You play huge, undercosted creatures, make them really scary with OP equipment, while locking out your opponent. Some brief explanations:

[B][U]Creatures:
MoE: Costs 1 more than goyf and is very often bigger, while pumping every other creature in your deck. MVP.
Sculptor: One of the more controversial slots. He speeds up literally every single card in your deck, is invaluable when replaying things with Esperzoa (See: Tangle Wire), comes down early, and is a threat with either of the equipments. He does everything decently well basically. Oh, and he's an artifact for MoE/Zoa/Affinity/plating.
Esperzoa: Sea Drake, you had a good run, but there's a badass jelly here now. Cool tricks with tangle wire, is an artifact (see above), Bouncing Chalice at zero or lands is fine. Oh, and he wiggles his tentacally appendages in glee as he floats over helpless goyfs down below.
Mechanist: 4 for a 2/2, ouch. He was out of the list for a while because of this. However, he's an absolutely stellar late game drop. And he's a blue artifact flyer that draws you cards. And is cool with zoa (although at that point its almost win-more, but it's happened). So I used him as filler, and I've liked the results.
Enforcer Free/almost free Beef. He's not as big as goyf on his own, but with an MoE he is. And he's an artifact creature. And even if you have to pay 2 or 3, oh well, it's still solid.

Spells:
FoW, Chalice: No Explanation needed, except that I definately play enough blue for FoW and Chalice being an artifact is awesome, even though I'd play it if it weren't/
Plating: Absolutely teh nutz. Makes every creature a "Kill me now or you die", for a grand total of 3 or less.
Jitte: Wanted around 1/3 equipment/creature ratio, and this guy is the best equipment in the game in any other deck, so he gets the last 2 spots.
Thoughtcast: Mini-Ancestral, and it pitches to FoW. Good at any point in the game. Doesnt eat up a turn of mana like TfK, and nets you the same amount of cards at least. That said, I really wanted TFK in here because the whole draw3 thing is awesome, but it just didn't fit, due to the ginormous amount of 3cc already.
Tangle Wire: Great lock piece. I've wanted to play this card for so long (apparently Im not the only one), and so at first when I tested it and it worked I was like "This must be bias, it can't actually be good". But it just kept working, so I just kept playing it. Obvious synergy with Zoa, equipments, chalice.

Mana Base:
Alright, this is the trickiest part of the deck imo. You want so many things out of your mana base, its really hard to fit it all in. You need Artifact lands for like every card in your deck. You need 2lands (tomb/city) for turn 1 Chalice/plating and turn 2 everything. And you need basics so you dont get loled by nonbasic hate, and so you can play some of your own. So this is what I came up with. The 2 damage from tomb can be tough, and you often don't need the 2land to stick around for long, so I went for the 2/2 split. That leaves enough room for the 8 obvious artifact lands, and then a bunch of basics. I kinda wanted to play a manland (Blinkmoth Nexus probably) but decided the basics were better, to dodge hate and to allow us to play B2B in the SB. B2B pretty much rapes a bunch of decks right now, and we can get by playing it because Zoa bounces tapped lands, you only really need 3 islands at most, and with a threat / equipment down you don't need to be playing much. Oh, and its awesome with wire.

Testing results have shown that we have a positive match against thresh. I know EVERYONE says this, but in this case its true (See: Fairie Stompy). Your flyers laugh at them, your MoE is bigger than them, counterbalance is almost irrelevant, and you play Relic and Threads SB (Threads = tech).
Goblins completely depends on their turn 1 and turn 2. If they get a really fast start you're in trouble, although its salvagable if you can race them, maybe get a jitte active or get an enforcer down to block those drivers, or a tangle wire or something. Propaganda helps.
TES is basically Mull for an early chalice / FoW. Its pretty luck dependant based on what you get and who's going first, but Chalice/FoW makes it very very winable. I havent tested this nearly enough to claim its favorable though. If it turns out to be worse than expected Ill switch around the SB to make room for Spheres (of Resistance, or maybe thorn).
TA is even or so Id say. Citadel is awesome against their denial, and Relic is great against them. But their guys are as big as yours mostly, and they play a bunch of removal / disruption, so if they get you off balance its sometimes hard to recover. They can't really deal with an early wire followed by anything with an equipment though.
Haven't tested aggro loam, although I'd imagine it would be a straight up race, with your guys flying over. Seems like with FoW for any bomb / game changer, it would be favored.

So yeah. COMMENTS. I've done a large amount of testing and so can probably answer your questions / criticisms, so don't just say "Oh another pet deck", tell me why you think it isn't good, and Ill tell you you're stupid here's why or shit you're right lets do this maybe.
With a little feedback I think imma send a request to get this moved to Established though.

[jazzykat]

necro...melmans list is good

I don't like 4 enforcers, 3 is enough for me
FOW was a bit tough to pitch to
MOE the bomb
Scultor is GREAT
Didn't appreciate 6 equip, but jitte is soooo good
love BTB
CoT should probably be tombs
Consider Winter Orb

[Melman]

Yeah, I've done -1 Enforcer +1 Mechanist, that's the only major change so far, I've been testing -1/2 CoT +1/2 Tombs but getting multiples just hurts too much. And you only need 3 or 4 mana, so you don't need to keep dropping land after land. Helps prevent overextending into a deed too.
Winter orb is cool, but it doesn't really synergize with anything other than tangle wire, and it doesn't help the tough matchups enough to warrant MD inclusion instead of a constant threat imo.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

...Personally I still love the idea of this deck, and I think I'm going to start testing it in addition to my other few Legacy pet decks (Merfolk and various forms of decks involving Black Discard type shit...)

I had a couple questions based on Melman's list though, since that seems to be the last point of debate, and also like a pretty solid list.

1.) Thoughtcast vs. Thirst for Knowledge... I can see how Thoughtcast is cheaper. But isn't the ability of Thirst to dig one card deeper and the fact that it's an instant enough to make it worth considering? (Not to mention the fact that if we get blown out once by some sort of artifact hate or mass destruction, Thirst will most likely be easier to play in order to recover...)

2.) Why no Arcbound Ravager? Has it really not tested to be good?

3.) Is Academy Ruins perhaps worth a shot as a one-of?

4.) One more crazy idea... How about Tezzeret? At least as a sideboard possibility for controllish match-ups?

5.) Ok, ok... one more thing: Why no Moxes? I realize it's sort of a stretch, but wouldn't Mox Diamond potentially be worth running a couple extra lands for, since Chrome Mox sadly fails in this deck?

[Raindown]

Anyone done any more testing with this deck? I have an affinity deck I like but is this as competitive?

Some of the newer cards I am considering in my affinity deck, but that is adding more blue to the mana base.

[Melman]

...Personally I still love the idea of this deck, and I think I'm going to start testing it in addition to my other few Legacy pet decks (Merfolk and various forms of decks involving Black Discard type shit...)

I had a couple questions based on Melman's list though, since that seems to be the last point of debate, and also like a pretty solid list.

1.) Thoughtcast vs. Thirst for Knowledge... I can see how Thoughtcast is cheaper. But isn't the ability of Thirst to dig one card deeper and the fact that it's an instant enough to make it worth considering? (Not to mention the fact that if we get blown out once by some sort of artifact hate or mass destruction, Thirst will most likely be easier to play in order to recover...)

2.) Why no Arcbound Ravager? Has it really not tested to be good?

3.) Is Academy Ruins perhaps worth a shot as a one-of?

4.) One more crazy idea... How about Tezzeret? At least as a sideboard possibility for controllish match-ups?

5.) Ok, ok... one more thing: Why no Moxes? I realize it's sort of a stretch, but wouldn't Mox Diamond potentially be worth running a couple extra lands for, since Chrome Mox sadly fails in this deck?

1. This is a really tricky choice. Basically, thirst often takes up a threat drop for the turn. It's great to be able to topdeck a Thoughtcast with an empty hand, cast it, and then still have mana to drop whatever you draw. Thoughtcast absorbs 3 for the turn, you often want to be casting other stuff when you get 3/4/5 mana, and using up 3 often prevents you from doing that. However, Thirst does dig one deeper. Personally, I think thoughtcast has the edge unless we start running Academy Ruins, which I will talk about.

2. Ravager is pretty bad in this deck. He's small, and you don't run small guys to sack to him like in affinity. He's also really easy to remove, and he just takes too many resources to become scary. And we don't run Disciple, so he's not even reach. He doesn't survive sweepers. He's just fairly underpowered.

3. Ruins is cool. The only problem is, you already run a bunch of non-blue sources with a bunch of blue cards, so in my testing there's only room for one non-blue tech land, and I've been liking Blinkmoth Nexus better. It just wins games with a plating, suprises the hell out of landstill when they drop a turn 2 standstill hoping to draw into manlands and you just start beating them, gives you an out when your creatures get sweeped but you still have a plating/jitte, allows for tricky combat tricks with a MoE, etc etc.
That said, Ruins may be good enough that we can clear a Citadel or blue source for it.

4. Tez costs alot and is hard to protect in this deck. However, if he stays out, he's golden. The problem is finding room for him. I don't think he's strictly better than any other cards in the list atm, so I dunno what I would want to cut. Maybe mechanists? Although I really like those guys (flying artifacts are invaluable) so I dunno.

5. We don't run enough lands, and there's not room to add more (would cut our threat density too much). They just need to remove that "non-artifact" clause and we're golden.

[ScatmanX]

The deal with Tezzeret is that, if he survives 1 turn, you kind of win the game right? So I guess he could be squeezed in...

[Melman]

Not exactly... All of your artifacts are expensive. You get one artifact, then you get some extra mana (or blockers) for a few turns, and the mana will probably be useless considering the fact that if you've played tezz, you've probably played everything else. Then you get another artifact.
So he basically has to survive a few turns to be anything more than a 5 mana MoE/Mechanist.

[ScatmanX]

Well, if you run a more controllish list, like DukeDemonKn1ght posted, you could activate his ultimate on turn 4 or 5, turning a CotV, a Crucible, 2 lands, and any other stuff into 5/5's and win.

I enjoyed his aproach. Don't know if it is optimal, but seems kind of fun.

[whosyourdaddy]

First of all, congratz guys on all the ideas:) This deck looks freakin good and I think I want to try it out. I guess it's one of the very few deck around that can go like really aggro while setting a lock(other than countertop) on the opponent. Niiice;0

Has anyone considered Master Transmuter? It seems a little clunky but may help with Tangle Wire tricks when Esperzoa is not around. Also he can go like nutzz with Faerie Mechanist or at worst sit back and protect your MoEs from removal. What do you think?

To anyone who has palyed the deck: how is it doing? Any reports? MU annalysis? New ideas? Don't let this thread die! ;p

[Wereodile]

I have been trying to think of this deck for like a week now and it turns out it already exists:rolleyes:

Well looks like I will be sleeving this sucker up later.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Just a note;

I'm not dead and I have tinkered with this on and off, but I still haven't settled on a list I really like. Although I think I'll be running Mox Diamond over Chrome Mox.

[Wereodile]

Just a note;

I'm not dead and I have tinkered with this on and off, but I still haven't settled on a list I really like. Although I think I'll be running Mox Diamond over Chrome Mox.

I have never run Mox Diamonds before is 18-20 lands enough to support it?

[whosyourdaddy]

Just a note;

I'm not dead and I have tinkered with this on and off, but I still haven't settled on a list I really like. Although I think I'll be running Mox Diamond over Chrome Mox.

Right. I can't really imagine chrome mox being good in this deck(stupid wording!;/) But, have you considered Lotus Petal? Ok, I know It's jus a one-time shot but a one time shot might just happen to be enough sometimes(like for instance playing chalice@1 on T1 can buy you some time time to draw another mana source) and it's also not situational and doesn't cause card disadvantage.

Another question: how do you evercome dedicated sb hate with jus FoW (and chalice to some extend). was that much of a problem in your testing?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I upped the land count. I'm testing Mishra's Factory and Wasteland, possibly with Crucible maindeck or side. I'm also testing Faerie Mechanist. But it's nothing like a final list. There's still some kinds I want to iron out and everytime I feel like I've got it operating smoothly it craps out.

[Dembones]

I've been trying to put together an effective MoE deck that includes the 'Zoa for awhile, and, as it's been said, it just seems to not work in this format.

Before I throw a few cards out there, which I'm guessing have been talked about, I had a question about the triggering of effects at the beginning of your upkeep with the Wire and Esperzoa. I know that cards such as Mana Crypt can't be bounced without it's trigger going on the stack, what's different about Tangle Wire? I thought you could bounce it, but I played a few guys a couple days ago and it seemed common concensus that Tangle Wire triggers.

Anyways, instead of Faerie Mechanist and mabye one Etherium Sculptor, what about putting Trinket Mages in there? If you removed the Tangle Wire, you could add cheap artifacts that not only pump MoE, but disrupt your opponent. You could also tutor up your artifact lands with him, if you wanted to have a splash of color for things like Executioner's Capsule or if you wanted to put in a Pyrite Spellbomb or something.

On splashing colors:
What about using Thirst for Knowledge, a couple of big nasty robots, and Goblin Welder? He's a 1/1 beater that, left alone, becomes a win condition in the mid to late game.

Just throwing ideas out there, sorry if this has already been discussed, and dismissed.

[raestlyn]

Before I throw a few cards out there, which I'm guessing have been talked about, I had a question about the triggering of effects at the beginning of your upkeep with the Wire and Esperzoa. I know that cards such as Mana Crypt can't be bounced without it's trigger going on the stack, what's different about Tangle Wire? I thought you could bounce it, but I played a few guys a couple days ago and it seemed common concensus that Tangle Wire triggers.
Tangle Wire does trigger, you can't stop that, but at the resolve it looks how many counters there are left and if its not in play it will resolve as a 0. So, you need to set up the triggers so that the Esperzoa is last in the stack so it will resolve before the Wire. Simple as that.

[cRUMMYdUMMY]

Has anyone tried fiddling with FieldMist Borderpost (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/5.html) or Mistvein Borderpost (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/27.html) from Alara Reborn yet?

They count as Seat of Synod 5-8. From my own testing 8 or more Islands is enough to support turn 1 Borderpost. You have zero turn 1 plays regardless, unless you start with Ancient Tomb/CotV. As a bonus, it pitches to FoW.

Broodstar also seems to be playable as a 2 or 3 of. Not quite settled on the number yet.

[eq.firemind]

Hey, people, Metalworker is back!
Maybe he can fit in controllish version of this nice deck?

Something like this:

LANDS + Mox (28)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of Synod
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Island
4 Mox Diamond
Turn 1 Chalice is nutz in Legacy (hey, they unban Entomb!) and IMHO only 8 ways to do that is not very good. But with Chrome Mox restrictions we need something else. I want to try Mox Diamond and more lands. In fact, Wastes and Factories are more spells and creatures than lands in this particular deck, but you can pitch them on Mox, so IMHO it's worth testing.

2-DROPS (12)
4 Chalice of the Void - Obv
4 Etherium Sculptor - Obv
4 Sphere of Resistance - Just like this card and want to use it in Legacy. Trinisphere/Tangle Wire obv better :wink:

3-DROPS (12)
4 Metalworker - Welcome back!
4 Esperzoa - Flies, beats, enables some cool tricks
4 Master of Etherium - Big dude + Lord effect? I take 4!

4-DROPS (8)
4 Faerie Mechanist - Card quality/advantage attached to 2/2? Sounds good!
4 Master Transmuter - Cheats stuff in play, can perform cool tricks.

HUUUGE MONSTERS (4)- Theese 4 slots are for something big and dangerous to cheat with Metalworker and Transmuter.
2-3 Sundering Titan - 4 seems to much 'cause :8: is hellot of mana even with Sculptor
1-2 Duplicant/Triskelion - theese scraps are far easier to hardcast (Sculptor helps greatly!) and with Esperzoa/Transmuter you can do nutty things.

SIDEBOARD
4 Pithing Needle - Obv
3 Tormod's Crypt - Obv
8 Free Slots

The list is just rough sketch, but is already very fun to play and certanly have some potential.
So what do you think?

[Zork]

I've been testing something similar to this, but came to the early conclusion that relying on having your mana cheaters in play opens you up to blowouts when they get countered/removed. Instead I opted for a more aggro build that has the potential for random blowouts via metalworker. I don't have the list ATM but it is something along these lines:

Blueballs (Deckname from when this was 8-ball disruption based)

Land: 20
4 tomb/city
10 Island + Seat of the Synod
2 Darksteel Citadel

Dudes:
4 Master of Etherium
4 Metalworker
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Trinket Mage
4 Esperzoa

Disruption:
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice
4 Force of Will
2 Winter Orb

Supplements:
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Sigil of Distinction

I would really like to fit wastelands in there again along with some other way to cheat mana early so I can drop bombs, but this has been performing fairly well for me. I have no sideboard yet, as I have not been able to test against decks that I don't have proxied up, but the possabilities are extensive.

Some things to note:

Sigil is absolutely amazing (thanks to happy gilmore for this). I equips right now, taps under tangle wire, allows you to reequip for the block, gets scooped for Esperzoa, and can be silly huge with metalworker. I would never cut any, and if I ever drop trinket mage this will likely be a 4 of.

I have been testing TfK over Faerie Machinist because even with the mana cheaters, 4 can be hard to get, and in a losing situation TfK nets you a little more in terms of options. I'm not sold either way though.

Force has been in there because goblins and merfolk can really screw you if they land a vial. On the draw, I like to have an answer. This could change if we find a better option, though.

And now for some testing options:

- EE could find a place as a 1-of, if for no other reason than it can be used to pop problem cards or clear multiple 1cc dudes.
- I really want to find a place for Lumengrid Sentinel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=45972). Really. He costs the right amount, synergizes with esperzoa, tangle wire, and winter orb, and opens up serious alpha strike possabilities with sigil. All while flying. If he were an artifact, it would all be gravy, but as it is I would probably have to cut some trinket mage and/or disruption for him.
- Staff of Domination would likely be my choice of metalworker abuse, just because it isn't useless without him. Second runner-up would be mishra's helix (but that card sucks).
- The only other creature I considered was Scarecrone, who seems to be walking the tightrope of playability. He would probably warrant upping the TfK count to 4 and running Sundering Titan, though.

Good luck, and I'll keep playing with my blueballs too.

[SilverGreen]

By no means I'll read 9 pages of a NDD, but as interesting inovation is interesting, I'll give my hints just over the original build.


Mana:
4x Chrome Mox
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Island
4x Mishra's Factory

Creatures:
4x Somber Hoverguard
4x Master of Etherium
4x Etherium Sculptor
4x Myr Enforcer

Draw:
4x Thoughtcast
4x Thirst for Knowledge

Control:
4x Force of Will
4x Chalice of the Void

Cranial Plating:
4x Cranial Plating
I dislike a lot the combined Chrome Mox+FoW card demand here. Faerie Stompy compensates it with explosive starts and a high count of colorless artifacts, as well as with free equipment draws. You're just in the middle of the road here: you have no such explosive starts (no turn-1, 4-power flyers powered by 8 tombs; no Affinity combo hands), nor the free card draw to compensate this in the long term. Neither seems so tasty pay 2U to lay a threat or to get some cards.

Mulldrifter can be hot in FS, but would be crappy here. FS doesn't care if it isn't an artifact. Your Deep Blue cares. And Sculptor is far from its right place here. I would exchange them for some other technological device in a heartbeat. Perhaps Elsewhere Flask + Esperzoa? Flask could be another first-turn-play to go along your lone Chalices, it feeds jellyfishes, and can fix your 12-colorless-land manabase (Tsabo's Web could also be techie as Zoa food, but cannot get along with Factories).

Speaking of manabases, you have no 8-tomb-pack, nor a dedicated affinity exploit. You have all the consistency issues of every N-Stompy build with no advantages in reward. You could argue your artifact lands count as Tombs for affinity, but you don't have 0 and 1CC artifacts to accelerate into your 5, 6 and 7CC spells. So, the best you can expect is to start beating with a 2/2 or 3/3 grounder Master of Etherium during some turns, and this if you aren't forced to keep a hand with no blue sources.

I don't like to be the misfortune spokesman, but I can't see how this lovechild could be better than its parents. It seems it's just the juncture of the weaker gametes of both...

[electrolyze]

Hej zork,


I lust tested your deck some games and I must say, metalworker is about insane in this deck:smile: . Just finished someone with an 18/18 esperzoa thanks to sigil.

The only thing I'm doubting about are thirst and winter orb. I use the faerie machinist and it hasnt dissapoint me so far. I like to have the artifact count for metalworker and master of etherium as high as possible + its a flying creature, which can be really scary in this deck.

I also dont like winter orb(think that is more personal preference), how about staff of domination to have a little combo with metalworker. Or ee looks great to me also in some situations I had, ee could have win me the game.

[Zork]

Yeah, like I said I haven't completely settled on some of those slots. If I were to go for Mechanist I would probably go ahead and do - 3 TfK, - 2 Winter Orb, +4 Mechanist +1 EE. Then I might even cut a Citadel/City of Traitors for a Great Furnace.

How has Force been holding up for you?

[electrolyze]

Force has been great to me. Most people dont expect a force in an artifact based stompy deck, so that is really great. And I already countered some game winning threats with it, so I like it yeah.

And playing 4 faerie and one explosives might be a good idea I think. Faerie is as good to run 4 I think, and there are some games I lost that I could won if I had an explosives. I'll definitely test those changes.

[Filipinho]

I like where this is heading, Zork and Electrolyze.
I'm not happy with the lack of explosives starts, that's why i'm gonna try Mox.
I'm not sure what would be better: Chrome or Diamond.
Mox Diamond: With City of Traitors, sometimes discarding a land isn't an issue, and Trinket mage can tutor Seat of the Synod, if needed, but it requires more deck slots. You'll run at least 20x lands and 4x Mox.
With Chrome Mox I'm not sure the card disadvantage pays up.

This is what i'm gonna test:
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Island
2x Darksteel Citadel

4x Chrome Mox

4x Etherium Sculptor
4x Master of Etherium
4x Trinket Mage
4x Metalworker
4x Esperzoa
3x Faerie Mechanist

4x Force of Will
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Tangle Wire
2x Sigil of Distinction
1x Engineered Explosives

[Phoenix Ignition]

Keep in mind Chrome Mox doesn't allow you to remove artifact cards, even if they are blue. That brings down the total number of moxables to 8 in your deck, which is horribly low to use it.

If you need a mox go with the Diamond.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Keep in mind Chrome Mox doesn't allow you to remove artifact cards, even if they are blue. That brings down the total number of moxables to 8 in your deck, which is horribly low to use it.

If you need a mox go with the Diamond.

Ironically, I think that one little "non-artifact" clause on Chrome Mox has proved to be the difference between this being a viable deck and it languishing in obscurity (as it unfortunately has.)

I'm not quite sure I see the point in running Metalworker also. I mean, it's a dope card for sure, but in this deck, what is all the extra mana it provides actually doing for you? I would try to include a couple things to use the extra mana on, like maybe even Masticore, if I was trying to work in the Metalworker.

[Filipinho]

Lol, never really read Chrome's mox. Maybe because we didn't have colored artifacts when it came out.
It really doesn't have a room in this deck.

[Zork]

Metalworker allows you to continue playing magic with tangle wire out, fuels explosive plays, and lets you play huge sigils. Trust me, when he hits the board it is scary for your opponent. Also, I'm trying out some SB options right now that will also abuse him.

If you really want to try to capitalize on first turn plays, I think your only real option in a deck like this is to man up, cut some disruption, and run lotus petal. Honestly, it might not be that bad, but I can't think of what would come out.

EDIT: Actually, I should probably explain why I'm not running 10+ cards that abuse metalworker. It's because he is, at most, a 4-of that scares people. Alot of the time, he will not be in play or will be target #1 for removal, and in this light I think building a deck that runs on him is bad design. I tried building an artifact-based blue control deck with him and then a red deck, and then a green deck, etc. and they all ran into problems when someone killed him. If I ran him in conjunction with mox-based mana acceleration or other artifact mana accel, (Dynamo/Monolith/Lotus/Voltaic Key combos) then I had too many games where I had 4000 mana and my one bomb got countered. Thats why I settled on trying to run a semi-aggressive deck that can sometimes just explode with metalworker.

[ScatmanX]

Quick question: why no Sea Drakes in here?

[Arctic_Slicer]

Quick question: why no Sea Drakes in here?

It does, they are just called Esperzoa.

More seriously; Sea Drake is only good if you can play it turn one with the help of Chrome Mox. This deck has a high Artifact count that makes Chrome Mox unplayable and thus Sea Drake. Also Sea Drake isn't an artifact so it doesn't have synergy with the rest of the deck that is trying to capitalize on affinity and Etherium cards.

[lorddotm]

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Darksteel Citadel
8 Island

4 Mox Diamond

4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Master of Etherium
4 Trinket Mage
4 Esperzoa
3 Faerie Mechanist

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sigil of Distinction

3 Propaganda
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Sower of Temptation
3 Back to Basics

This is what I would rock if I were to build this (My playset of Jap Foil Esperzoas and MoE kind of makes me want to).

[Zork]

3sphere? That seems awful with Etherium Sculptor.

I started with a build similar to that with Mox Diamond, but I found myself drawing dead lands too often after turn 3. Let me know how it works out for you.

[lorddotm]

3sphere? That seems awful with Etherium Sculptor.

I started with a build similar to that with Mox Diamond, but I found myself drawing dead lands too often after turn 3. Let me know how it works out for you.

I can see that being a problem...

Maybe use Thirst instead?

[jazzykat]

While I realize it may have been lackluster before after seeing the last few lists I think Ravager has to be considered when over half your deck is artifacts. Every time an opponent destroys or kills something he gets +1/+1. It turns extra lands and extra 3spheres into damage (if you guys are still running them). He makes blocking for your opponent tricky and you should normally have out a second guy to pick up his counters if he gets killed.

[_erbs_]

How about something like this...

Mana [27]
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Accademy Ruins
9 Island
4 Mox Diamond

Creatures [15]
3 Metalworker
3 Master of Etherium
3 Esperzoa
3 Faerie Mechanist
3 Serendib Efreet

Utilities [18]
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tanglewire
3 Sofi
3 Thoughtcast

SB
4 Powersink
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Propaganda
3 Winter Orb
2 Sower of Temptation

[jazzykat]

Master of Etherium is stone cold nuts with lots of artifacts and artifact creatures. Why did you add serendibs?

[Zork]

Again, why are you playing trinisphere in that deck when it clashes horribly with Etherium Sculptor, Thoughtcast, and Esperzoa?

@Ravager: I ran him for a long time, but ended up cutting him to run something more proactive. Ravager was never good when I was in a bad position and tended to be win-more when he did get huge. I ended up cutting him for Metalworker.

[DragoFireheart]

I have a serious problem with this deck, and this is it:

Energy Flux (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=12857)
2U
Enchantment

All artifacts have "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this artifact unless you pay 2."


This deck has Force of Will... and that's it. How does this deck answer such a potent sideboard card that half of the Tier-1 decks can run if they need to?

[Mikeleroi]

You can run Chain of vapor.

Anyway, who has Energy flux on the SB?

[DragoFireheart]

You can run Chain of vapor.

Anyway, who has Energy flux on the SB?


I do when I get even a hint of rampant Affinity decks in my meta.


Sure, this could be a good rogue deck for once in awhile, but I don't see how it could be anything more than that. There's just too much artifact hate waiting to be used.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I just hate to see this deck die, although I agree it's never going to be Tier One.

Anyhow, maybe it's been mentioned before, but is there anything good that would come out of looking for ways to abuse Metalworker now that he's unbanned?

[Zork]

The trick to making metalworker good is to find a card that he can abuse that is also not dead without him. Hence the use of Sigil of Distinction. I would likely try Staff of Domination or the like first.

[overseer1234]

Okay, since a lot of people want to splash blue in MUD, I think the people that want to splash blue should keep that discussion here

(since most want to play master of etherium, force of will and faery mechanist kind of stuff I thought this thread might be more suited for a blue stompy deck using lodestone golem).

Here's a first to feed the discussion


4 master of etherium
4 lodesotne golem
3/4 esperzoa
4 etherium sculptor
Xx feary mechanist

4 chalice of the void
4 sphere of resistance (or trinisphere if you don't play the sculpter)
3/4 tangle wire (insane synergy with esperzoa)
4 thoughtcast/thirst for knowledge again personel preferance
4 force of will
4/5 equipment

Xx land and accel

And some stuff hat might be really cool in a build trying to abuse esperzoa:
Sculpting steel: dump it as an extra sphere of creature, and use esperzoa if you can and want to use it for something better.
Elswhere flask: Not that kind of broken, but still nice since it does make it a cantripping collorfixer that become's an engine with esperzoa


Just some food for thought

[jazzykat]

I always found the issue for this deck to be fast aggro/ a turn 2 Tarmogoyf.

As cool as Etherium sculpor is, I am always sad to see a 1/2 for 1U. I am not sure if it is worth it.

Chrome mox doesn't work out here because the non-artifact U count is too low.

I almost feel like we should go up to 24 lands, and include mox diamond/Crucible?. Then we can play waste,Blinkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, port, artifact lands, etc

Given the balancing act that is needed to keep FoW I really feel that the best direction for the deck is a hybridization of 5/3 and Deep Blue. In all reality the only thing in my mind holding the deck back is vulnerability to goyf so if you can't beat them...

We have heavy disruption so the only thing we shoudl be worried about is taking out the opponents goyfs. Any of our dudes equipped will either take out their goyf and live or at least trade.

If we add green I am also considering a red splash ONLY for firespout from the board. I need to work on this on MWS before posting anything if something good comes up.

[Mikeleroi]

I would go for something like this:

4 chalice of the void
4 sphere of resistance

4 master of etherium
4 esperzoa
4 force of will
4 condescend
4 mana leak
4 brainstorm
4 lotus petal
4 tangle wire
4 propaganda/meekstone?

4 seat of the synod
4 ancient tomb
4 island
4 ancient den

-> 4 chalice + 4 sphere to be cast on 1st turn with tomb or land+petal
-> Counters+cards to take advantage of mana at end of turn: FoW, brainstorm,mana leak, condescend
-> Beaters: Master of etherium and Esperzoa (also enables a lot of tricks with wire and CotV)

Still, I can´t see this deck working properly...

[Meekrab]

Wasn't Deep Blue the only computer that could beat the Russian chess pro Kasparov?
I'm not sure if this was answered in the five pages of discussion, but yes, Deep Blue beat Kasparov 3.5-2.5 in a six game match in 1998, though it lost to him 4-2 in 1996.

Deep Blue, however, would get crushed by Rybka 3 running on any modern quad core cpu. It's just a much better program.

[Zalren]

I see a lot of people like to use Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistance in their decks. What about instead using Lodestone Golem? It does not counter-act Etherium Sculptor and acts like a one sided Sphere of Resistance since almost all your cards are artifacts. Assuming you are not playing another artifact deck, of course.

[Vacrix]

I think that Esperzoa could be REALLY strong in the right build. It combos really well obviously with Tanglewire, keeping your opponents stuff tapped down while you smash face with 4 evasively. That looks really strong and I think that interactions with it should be further explored.

- Duplicant
Duplicant is a really strong creature by itself. Duplicant imprints the opponents creatures, and you get the creature, pretty legit card advantage. This deck could develop a nice 'Mangara like' engine (see DnT) via replaying Duplicant each turn. It takes a little bit of time to get both pieces out (like Mangara), but Stax shells can slow the game down to that point pretty well. If you do manage to get the combo out then you can start removing your opponents creatures each turn, and then save the best one for last. Conveniently, Duplicant is great on its own and so is Esperzoa.

- Ankh of Mishra
Ankh of Mishra is SIMILAR but obviously different. Playing it turn 1 is very strong turn 2, maybe but its weak after the early game (but its a thought worth exploring). Fetchlands deal 5 damage a piece under an Ankh, making most decks very hesitant about casting them. Additionally, your mana base doesn't really need that many lands to play effectively. If you can get Esperzoa into play, you can bounce your Ankh every turn, so that you can play your land drops, while your opponent takes damage. So many decks run fetchlands that this might be worthy of a slot in the MD, but its clearly not good against decks like Merfolk, Goblins, DnT, and Elves that infrequently use fetchlands. Most decks in legacy play fetchlands, though, and I've always thought that Ankh of Mishra is an extremely underplayed card.

A rough list:

Deep Blue variant
Creatures// 14
4 Master of etherium
4 Esperzoa
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Duplicant

Board control// 22
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle wire
4 Propaganda
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Crucible of Worlds

Mana// 24
2 Mox Diamond
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
8 Island
4 Wasteland

It looks more like Stax, but its a rough list. Esperzoa is insane with Duplicant and Tangle Wire. Not sure if the Lodestone Golems and Duplicants should be a 3/3 split. It might not have enough artifacts yet. Mox Diamond looks weak. It should probably be replaced with some more artifact lands.

Thoughts?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I think that Esperzoa could be REALLY strong in the right build. It combos really well obviously with Tanglewire, keeping your opponents stuff tapped down while you smash face with 4 evasively. That looks really strong and I think that interactions with it should be further explored.

- Duplicant
Duplicant is a really strong creature by itself. Duplicant imprints the opponents creatures, and you get the creature, pretty legit card advantage. This deck could develop a nice 'Mangara like' engine (see DnT) via replaying Duplicant each turn. It takes a little bit of time to get both pieces out (like Mangara), but Stax shells can slow the game down to that point pretty well. If you do manage to get the combo out then you can start removing your opponents creatures each turn, and then save the best one for last. Conveniently, Duplicant is great on its own and so is Esperzoa.

- Ankh of Mishra
Ankh of Mishra is SIMILAR but obviously different. Playing it turn 1 is very strong turn 2, maybe but its weak after the early game (but its a thought worth exploring). Fetchlands deal 5 damage a piece under an Ankh, making most decks very hesitant about casting them. Additionally, your mana base doesn't really need that many lands to play effectively. If you can get Esperzoa into play, you can bounce your Ankh every turn, so that you can play your land drops, while your opponent takes damage. So many decks run fetchlands that this might be worthy of a slot in the MD, but its clearly not good against decks like Merfolk, Goblins, DnT, and Elves that infrequently use fetchlands. Most decks in legacy play fetchlands, though, and I've always thought that Ankh of Mishra is an extremely underplayed card.

A rough list:

Deep Blue variant
Creatures// 14
4 Master of etherium
4 Esperzoa
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Duplicant

Board control// 22
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle wire
4 Propaganda
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Crucible of Worlds

Mana// 24
2 Mox Diamond
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
8 Island
4 Wasteland

It looks more like Stax, but its a rough list. Esperzoa is insane with Duplicant and Tangle Wire. Not sure if the Lodestone Golems and Duplicants should be a 3/3 split. It might not have enough artifacts yet. Mox Diamond looks weak. It should probably be replaced with some more artifact lands.

Thoughts?

Duplicant is good, but it costs so much to play, I might consider running it as a one-of.

Another note on the creature base: I'm pretty convinced that Master of Etherium is going to be a win-more card in this deck. Yeah, we play a lot of artifacts to enable him, but consider Affinity's use of the card versus this deck's: I just don't think he does enough for us to merit inclusion. When he's huge, you've probably got enough shit on the table that you're likely to win anyways. And more often than not, you won't have that many creatures on the table for him to boost, or enough artifacts in play to make him ridiculously big. Affinity gets away with running him because their curve is so ridiculously low. We don't really have that same asset to exploit.

Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance don't really belong in the same list together, because unless someone explained this to me wrong, their effects don't stack.

I think Mox Diamond could probably be good, but 22 lands isn't enough, and running it as a two-of doesn't make much sense to me. I think Mox Diamond demands such a commitment in the way that you build the deck that it's one of those cards you should either run four of or none of. And the prevailing wisdom is that you need to run at least 24 lands to reliably be able to use it. I think Mox Diamond would probably work best with a build that had maybe one more Crucible of Worlds (although it might be ok to just leave it as a two of), and 3-4 Mishra's Factories in addition to the lands that you're running, bringing the land count up to about 24-25.

I notice that you're not running any counterspells, which I find interesting. This is the rare example of a blue deck where I'm not actually sure if it's actually correct to run FoW and Daze. Obviously they wouldn't work in the list you posted (not enough Islands and blue cards to make either one reliable in your list). But my knee-jerk reaction is that it's kind of silly to play a blue deck that has doesn't have any counterspells or draw spells... I kind of wonder what others have to say about this question...

Overall, I agree that Esperzoa has a fair amount of potential... I think Sigil of Distinction should probably be run alongside it, at least as a one-of, and I can't help thinking that a Trinket Mage toolbox could be pretty cute... You could probably even get away with playing Engineered Explosives if you ran four Mox Diamonds (since you could get it up above one color usually.)

Anyways... now I'm just rambling. I hope some of these ideas somehow prove useful.

EDIT: Also, Solemn Simulacrum could be pretty good alongside Esperzoa... I mean, he costs four, but that guy is just card advantage shenanigans waiting to happen.

[Mikeleroi]

I wouldn´t play Duplicant, 6 manas are too many, and I don´t think it is necessary. Also, the problem with Golem is that enters on T3 or T4, maybe a little late for the game (for the effect that we want, +1 to the spells)

It could be good checking which direction is better: this one more oriented to artifacts (more stax) or the other including more blue spells (taking advantage that Esperzoa and Master of Etherium are blue, to support FoW)...

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I wouldn´t play Duplicant, 6 manas are too many, and I don´t think it is necessary. Also, the problem with Golem is that enters on T3 or T4, maybe a little late for the game (for the effect that we want, +1 to the spells)

It could be good checking which direction is better: this one more oriented to artifacts (more stax) or the other including more blue spells (taking advantage that Esperzoa and Master of Etherium are blue, to support FoW)...

The fact that Master of Etherium is blue is a terrible reason to justify running more blue spells, because Master is a card that intrinsically wants you to play more artifacts. Besides that, I agree with you that there's basically two directions that this idea should go in: basically Stax-esque, or Stompy-esque. I just don't think Master of Etherium belongs if you're going with the "more blue cards, less lock pieces" Stompy approach.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, if you're going with the Stax approach, you probably shouldn't run Master of Etherium either. Yeah, you're running a bunch of artifacts. But those artifacts cost about 3-4 mana each, it's not like you're really going to be dropping five artifacts into play on your first turn like you were Affinity or something.

The more I think about it, Master of Etherium is horrible for this deck.

[Vacrix]

I wouldn´t play Duplicant, 6 manas are too many, and I don´t think it is necessary. Also, the problem with Golem is that enters on T3 or T4, maybe a little late for the game (for the effect that we want, +1 to the spells)

Mangara of Corondor + Karakas is a game breaking combo if you can get it online. I play DnT every now and again and let me tell you, its slow but if you can get it online, you win. The deck is built to slow the game down so that you can get to that point. I think I overlooked countermagic because I was going for a more stax oriented build.

The comparison:
Duplicant requires 6 mana each turn if you are to play it as a lock. That is a serious draw back. HOWEVER, unlike mangara, its effect is immediate, which is a huge advantage. Also, Duplicant is great on its own. Your oppponent doesn't get his Goyf back if Duplicant is killed. 6 mana to essentially steal the opponents creature might seem like a big investment, but its worth the mana if the lock turns out to be worth playing. Just saying, DnT does something similar and its slow. This idea shouldn't be discarded just because its slow.

If the deck is to even try this, it should consider how it can slow the game down, and get both lock pieces out. Likely its a different deck entirely, but food for the thought at the very least.

[Mikeleroi]

Sorry, my bad, I missread the card and thought that the criature you exile with duplicant had to be yours. Well, in this case it can work as a lock of course!! Still, there is "something" missed with this deck, when you see it you think "this couldn´t beat Goblins or Zoo or ANT or etc with a normal initial hand"... at least this is my impression.

About Master of etherium: well, it doesn´t do any special, just being a ... ¿4/4? at least ... for cmc 3. But this deck needs to kill with something, and running just 4 esperzoa and 2 duplicants maybe is not enough.

Still, I don´t know, the deck is in the middle between control with counters and control with artifacts... and it is at a suboptimal point. I prefer running blue because I think it can support FoW and Brainstorm, and they are just too good. I suppose it depends the meta that we expect.

[Vacrix]

I disagree.

Goblins and Zoo are very much winable if you have a bomb turn 1 play. Fast Trinisphere really slows them down. Same with Propaganda, Chalice at 1, Tangle Wire.

Chalice and Trinisphere are insane against storm combo. I can't imagine that the combo matchup would be weak.

[Mikeleroi]

You have convinced me... I think that the Stax-oriented one with chalice/sphere/trini/tangle is the best option, and running 4 tomb + 2 city + 2 diamond makes it possible to lock the other player so early (even T1).

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Thought I'd perform a preemptive necro on this thread, since I just came up with a list that seems halfway decent to me:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thoughtcast

4 Etherium Sculptor
3 Esperzoa
4 Master of Etherium
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Faerie Mechanist
2 Cranial Plating (changed from Su-Chi @ rukcus's suggestion)

3 Mox Diamond
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Island
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
Some combination of Propaganda, Sphere of Resistance, and um... some other stuff?

So, yeah. The two cards I couldn't fit in this list that I would have liked to are the 4th Mox Diamond, and perhaps 1-2 Umezawa's Jitte... Besides that, it actually seems pretty decent to me. Tangle Wire would probably be good to actually have a way to break Esperzoa, but bouncing a Sphere or Thorn with him is about as good, and Chalice also works in a pinch.

Etherium Sculptor might prove not to be worth it; I'm not really sure when I'm going to have the chance to test this list. If someone wants to do me a solid and playtest it a little on MWS or something for me, I'd be much obliged. Cheers!

EDIT: Also, Thirst for Knowledge might be better than Thoughtcast, since Thoughtcast kind of sucks when you're in a losing position (ie, your board just got wiped and you're trying to recover.)

[Koby]

Cranial Plating has seen some RIDICULOUS plays in this deck. I like that better than the random Su-Chi for beats. Its also really cheap with Sculptor and makes eve the little guy a threat once you've got a lock piece.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Oh, that's right... I was kind of thinking that Cranial Plating cost 1 instead of 2 mana. I'm gonna switch the Su-Chi's in that list for Plating. Any other feedback??

EDIT: Do you think Crucible of Worlds would be worth either trying to squeeze into the main or worth putting in the sideboard? I'd kinda like it somewhere in the 75 to compliment Mox, City, and Wasteland, but I don't know if I can really justify putting it into the board, since I don't know what match-up that would be supposed to be for.

[Koby]

I've tried Blue Stax, and Deep Blue prior to lodestone Golem. Both seemed to lack a punch; but I was getting faster wins from Deep Blue. Adding the Golem seems to help the lock while not slowing down the deck.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Any thoughts on the sideboard? I was thinking some sort of Trinket Mage package could possibly be good...

To me, the strong contenders for the sideboard seem like Propaganda, more Spheres, and... that's about all I can think of honestly. Powder Keg is probably going to be a necessity, although it seems a little slow unfortunately.

Can anyone think of good tech for the sideboard?

[Koby]

The more I play the deck, the less I like Sphere of Resistance. It a good lock piece, but it ends up locking you out more than not. Thorns of Amethyst and Lodestone Golem have the same effect, but don't slow down your development as much.

I play:
-2 Sphere of Resistance
+1 Cranial Plating
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

The Jitte helps overcome some of the life loss from Tomb. Alternatively, I also have a version that cuts Faerie Mechanist for Mulldrifters and/or Serendib Efreet vis-a-vis Faerie Stompy.

[Koby]

Here's what I'm testing right now, and thoughts on games.

4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Master of Etherium
3 Esperzoa
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Frogmite / Metal Worker / Arcbound Ravager / Silver Myr / Cathodian? / 3cc Artifact Creature

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Thoughtcast
3 Cranial Plating

4 Mox Diamond

4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Academy Ruins
3 City of Traitors
4 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Wasteland

The best plays involve 2 mana land, Mox, and Sculptor; but they typically start with a lock piece and end with a large attacker. It's fun attacking for 6 on turn 2 with a Plating'd Etherium Sculptor. Cranial Plating is definitly pulling its own weight in this deck, and I'm looking to find room for one more.

[Clark Kant]

I really think this deck ought to find a way to truly abuse Metalworker in this deck, considering just how powerful the card is here.

One activation and you can lay down your entire hand (equipment, smokestack, trinisphere everything) in just one turn. That's pretty nutty.

[Koby]

Etherium Sculptor achieves the same effect. I've found that many times I'm in topdeck mode by turn 3-4, and the only limiting resource is blue mana. Force of Will isn't even a bad choice for this build, as was posted a few pages back.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So how is testing working out for you?

Also, do you have any thoughts on the sideboard? (random tangent: I have a new computer, but I will need to install Wine in order to run MWS, so I'm looking into that. This is on my list of shit to playtest...)

Anyhow, as far as the sideboard, cards that I've come up with that seem good (or potentially good) are:
-Propaganda,
-Powder Keg,
-Tormod's Crypt, (maybe also Trinket Mage, if there are matches where we would want to be able to search for Chalice or Crypt, like maybe Dredge or Tempo Thresh or something),
-possibly Sower of Temptation (if we can consistently manage double blue and protect it well enough),
-and possibly Trinisphere.

Any thoughts?

[Zalren]

Here's what I'm testing right now, and thoughts on games.

4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Master of Etherium
3 Esperzoa
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Frogmite /Metalworker / Arcbound Ravager / Silver Myr / Cathodian / 3cc Artifact Creature

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Thoughtcast
3 Cranial Plating

4 Mox Diamond

4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Academy Ruins
3 City of Traitors
4 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Wasteland

The best plays involve 2 mana land, Mox, and Sculptor; but they typically start with a lock piece and end with a large attacker. It's fun attacking for 6 on turn 2 with a Plating'd Etherium Sculptor. Cranial Plating is definitly pulling its own weight in this deck, and I'm looking to find room for one more.

Instead of Thoughtcast I am using Elsewhere Flask, works as a draw engine with Esperzoa or can sac it so I can get blue mana when I need it most.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Do y'all think Neurok Familiar might have a place in this deck?

:1::u: 1/1 Bird

Flying
When *this* ETB, reveal the top card of your library. If it's an artifact, put it in your hand. Otherwise, put it in your graveyard.

I don't know, it's probably pretty lackluster, but I was digging through an old box of cards and it made me think of this deck.

EDIT: Also, what about Somber Hoverguard in the Frogmite/Metalworker/Ravager slot that y'all seem to be trying random things out in?

[Koby]

@Zalren: Elsewhere Flask seems like an interesting option for Thoughtcast. Seeing as the hardest part is getting blue mana, this artifact may make some fast hands keepable (that don't have any access to blue mana).

I almost want to run Springleaf Drum for it's obvious synergy with Etherium Sculptor, but dysenergy with Chalice of the Void. It fills a very important spot in the deck that adds blue mana. The creature mix might need to be increased to help make it more reliable.

@Duke RE Sideboard
I've used 4 Pithing Needles, 3 Umezawa's Jitte, 4 Tormod's Crypt, 4 Propaganda as a base. I think in the stage this archetype is in, it's better to focus on improving the maindeck than worry about how to improve specific matchups.

I may revisit Faerie Mechanist as a way to increase the threat density; I initially dismissed it for it's mana cost, but I'm starting to notice in gameplay I have more than enough mana, but not enough plays. Then again, it's a blue card that still runs into the blue mana problem. I'll do more testing later this week with variations.

About half the games I've played have been blowouts - explosive start with lock pieces. The other half are brown outs, and I lose to deck inconsistencies. I haven't played enough against specific matchups to determine what the weakness/strength matchups are yet. Seeing as it's almost the end of the school term, I anticipate this may take a few weeks to figure out.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

If you're finding that blue mana is too hard to come by and you want to increase threat density, I would encourage trying out a few Solemn Simulacrums. That card is just all sorts of dank card advantage, and it's a decent Esperzoa bounce target (I would say an amazing one, but four mana is pretty expensive for a recursive bounce target.)

Also, do you guys think that Tangle Wire is strong enough on its own for us to include it? (seeing as the real reason to want to put it in is the wacky Esperzoa sexiness that it can induce...)

[lotriderm]

Even without Esperzoa, Tangle Wire helped my goblins MU (aggro in general) a lot since it slows them down. I also run maindeck Jittes, so if I can slow them down and get counters on Jitte, it pretty much wraps it up.

[eq.firemind]

Guys, I think you should try out 2-3 Pilgrim's Eye
This little thing does a lot for the deck: is artifact, costs :3:, flies with equips, works with Esperzoa AND fixes that blue mana issue you all seem to have.

[jazzykat]

Guys, I think you should try out 2-3 Pilgrim's Eye
This little thing does a lot for the deck: is artifact, costs :3:, flies with equips, works with Esperzoa AND fixes that blue mana issue you all seem to have.

I think this is a VERY good idea. You get a few islands with esperzoa out and it has evasion so a sword or jitte still would be VERY effective on it. If it dies, who cares as it was at least a tutor for a land and they didn't aim removal at another dude.

At the very least, I think it is a ton better than the simulacrum for this deck.

[Zalren]

This is my deck list so far.

24 Land
4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x City of Traitors
4 x Ancient Den
4 x Seat of the Synod
1 x Academy Ruins
1 x Plains
6 x Island

4 Acceleration
4 x Mox Diamond

22 Creatures
4 x Ethersworn Canonist
4 x Esperzoa
4 x Lodestone Golem
4 x Trinket Mage
2 x Pilgrim's Eye
4 x Metalworker

10 Artifacts
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Thorn of Amethyst
1 x Sigil of Distinction
1 x Engineered Explosives

I moved away from monoblue thinking I want white for Ethersworn Canonist which I think is very doable with Ancient Den and Mox Diamond. Maybe use Pilgrim's Eye to find a basic plains. Or Trinket Mage to find Ancient Den.

I kind of miss Faerie Mechanist. Thinking about taking Metalworker out for Master of Etherium

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I don't think Canonist is really worth adding another color, we already have mana issues. From what I've experienced with him also, is that against most decks (ie most non-combo), Canonist doesn't really do jack.

Anyhow, what's holding this archetype up, exactly? Has anyone tested enough to speak to which decks we're especially weak against?

[AcidFiend]

I love the look of this deck. Definitely going to pitch in and start testing it :)

Still seems like a few conclusions need to be reached about the ratios/choices of Mulldrifter vs. Machinist, Elsewhere Flask vs. Thoughtcast.

Also, out of curiosity: what reasons are there to play this deck above Dragon Stompy / Faerie Stompy / AFOWinity?

[Vacrix]

Also, out of curiosity: what reasons are there to play this deck above Dragon Stompy / Faerie Stompy / AFOWinity?

U-stax gets access to Academy Ruins, which is good in combination with Tangle Wire. It also brings Esperzoa to the table, something I think has been neglected WAY too much in this deck. Tangle Wire + Esperzoa is pretty solid. Duplicant + Esperzoa is pretty synergetic much like Mangara + Karakas in DnT. Other than that, the deck runs most of the same cards.

[from Cairo]

Also, out of curiosity: what reasons are there to play this deck above Dragon Stompy / Faerie Stompy / AFOWinity?

It looks like it might be a bit more stable than AFOWnity, since it is less ambitious in the demanding Blue pitch spells. AFOWnity as I remember it ran something like 18 blue cards (FoW inclusive) and attempted to support Chrome Mox and FoW, which sometimes left it hanging w/o the card needed to pitch.

At this point (the last few pages) Deep Blue doesn't seem to be related to Affinity at all anymore. It's looks like a Fairie Stompy / MUD hybrid.

I don't think there is a good reason to run this over Faerie Stompy or Dragon Stompy. It's cheaper than Faerie Stompy since it cuts a bunch of the money (FoW, Sea Drake, Equipment) for spheres and recently printed uncommons, but all those cuts are very good cards and ones that maintain potency as top decks, I'm not sure the cards Deep Blue adds are. Dragon Stompy seems pretty comparable in price and offers a lot more disruption through moon effects, I'd sooner play it than Deep Blue as well.

[Clark Kant]

Rather than use Tsabo's Web, I would MUCH rather use Ankh of Mishra as an Esperzoa target.

Ankh of Mishra can be played turned one. You don't play fetchlands so you're not as effected by it. You can tap it to Tangle Wire (another good card with Esperzoa) and have it still damage your opponent.

It devastates your opponents for playing fetchlands doing between 8-12 damage (plus the 1 additional damage they take each time use the fetchland), and even if they don't (rare), it still gets in a good 6 damage or so.

So the card is good enough to play in the deck without Esperzoa. The reason F. Stompy doesn't play it is because they need to keep their blue count up for FoW. Most builds of this deck don't even play FoW.

But WITH Esperzoa, you basically can bounce Ankh back to your hand any turn you wish to play lands to get around taking any lifeloss for yourself, while still preventing your opponent from doing so.

[Vacrix]

I do like the synergy in that you can avoid the land drops. The question is how much damage are you going to take when you don't have Esperzoa. Stax already takes hits while its laying down pieces, and Ancient Tomb adds up after a while.

Also, keep in mind that a smart player will wait until you bounce it to break the fetchlands.

[jrsthethird]

Always liked Lodestone Golem and this seems like the best deck for him. I'll give it a whirl sometime.

Just looking at some other options:

Tasbo's Web: How is it? Is it better than Elsewhere Flask? Even though it doesn't fix your mana it can shut down some of your opponent's lands, albeit rarely.
Winter Orb: We run 12 colored spells, and 8 pieces that make your opponent's spells cost more. Unless you need to play a Sculptor or something, you can just untap a City and Moxes and drop cheap artifacts while your opponent gets locked out.

Also, I'm loving Elsewhere Flask. If I'm correct, it lets you tap Tomb without taking damage and lets you keep a City in play while you play another land. Sick tech.

[evanmartyr]

Tsabo's Web does like, 3 decent things.

1: It somewhat shuts down 43 land-type decks. Maze of Ith, I would imagine, is a fairly significant hurdle for a deck with no Wastelands and no graveyard hate.
2: It shuts down random, archetype-specific lands that can really present a problem for such a tempo-oriented deck. Riptide Laboratory and Academy Ruins come to mind.
3: It shuts down Manlands fairly well, which puts a damper on any tribal decks, Landstill, etc.

Elsewhere Flasks do nothing when combo'd with Esperzoa other than draw cards. When not being spammed in and out of play, it can possible:

1: Save you damage from an Ancient Tomb, at the cost of 1 mana. Is 2 life worth 1 mana? Randomly, it probably is.
2: Save your City of Traitors by allowing you to drop land AFTER City of Traitors is in play.

In a vacuum, I would probably vote for Web, but knowing that there are certainly occasions when you need to develop your manabase late-game, or when you need to get a fast start turn 1-2 and not annihilate your own resources, Elsewhere Flask seems to be nuts. The only problem I see with Elsewhere Flask is that, beyond the characteristics it shares with Tsabo's Web, you want to use it, which means putting it in your graveyard and removing it from consideration as an engine/drawback-nullifier with Esperzoa. Web's effect isn't so blatant as to break games wide open...usually...but *using* it is part of the package, rather than just having the option to use it.

[Exospaciac]

Would Mindlock Orb be a good sideboard card for a deck like this? It might be a little expensive, but it shuts down a LOT of stuff.

For those that don't know:

Mindlock Orb 3U
Artifact
Players can't search libraries.

Hopefully Mirrodin 2 brings this deck some more goodies to push it to at least tier 1.5.

[evanmartyr]

Actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Elsewhere Flask protect your own non-basic lands from Wastelands?

[eq.firemind]

Actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Elsewhere Flask protect your own non-basic lands from Wastelands?
Unfortunately, you are wrong. After you use Flask, your City of Traitors becomes (still nonbasic) Land - Island.

[evanmartyr]

Boo. Definitely Tsabo's Web, then, or Ankh. They at least do something =/

[eq.firemind]

The list I'm currently testing:
MANA (28)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Island
4 Mox Diamond
2-DROPS (15)
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mix of Ankh of Mishra, Tsabo's Web and Elsewhere Flask
3-DROPS (13)
4 Master of Etherium
4 Esperzoa
2 Pilgrim's Eye
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Fabricate
4-DROPS (4)
4 Lodestone Golem

Some thoughts:
1) I don't like Thorn of Amethyst in the main. You spend 2 mana and a card and they need to cast 3 noncreature spells to at least offset your mana investment and you still have card disadvantage. Not good enough for me.
2) I'm testing different equips, but Jitte seems to be the best.
3) Crucible of Worlds was not bad. Wastelock is good in Legacy. But I don't like how the deck leans toward control.
4) Singleton Fabricate is here to help you find the missing parts of your synergies.
5) I rarely want to see two Esperzoas in the game and it needs other things to work properly, so I want cut one, but don't know how to replace it.
6) I'm in dought about that 4 Esperzoa-synergy cards. Turning Zoa into draw engine is awesome, but without Zoa Web and Flask are mediocre. Ankh is only good when you cast it in first 3 turns, so you need at least 3 copies to drop it early enough. I play 3 Ankh and 1 Web/Flask now and Fabricate helps me to catch opponent with Web, but there is a room for improvement here.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

The list I'm currently testing:
MANA (28)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Island
4 Mox Diamond
2-DROPS (15)
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mix of Ankh of Mishra, Tsabo's Web and Elsewhere Flask
3-DROPS (13)
4 Master of Etherium
4 Esperzoa
2 Pilgrim's Eye
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Fabricate
4-DROPS (4)
4 Lodestone Golem

Some thoughts:
1) I don't like Thorn of Amethyst in the main. You spend 2 mana and a card and they need to cast 3 noncreature spells to at least offset your mana investment and you still have card disadvantage. Not good enough for me.
2) I'm testing different equips, but Jitte seems to be the best.
3) Crucible of Worlds was not bad. Wastelock is good in Legacy. But I don't like how the deck leans toward control.
4) Singleton Fabricate is here to help you find the missing parts of your synergies.
5) I rarely want to see two Esperzoas in the game and it needs other things to work properly, so I want cut one, but don't know how to replace it.
6) I'm in dought about that 4 Esperzoa-synergy cards. Turning Zoa into draw engine is awesome, but without Zoa Web and Flask are mediocre. Ankh is only good when you cast it in first 3 turns, so you need at least 3 copies to drop it early enough. I play 3 Ankh and 1 Web/Flask now and Fabricate helps me to catch opponent with Web, but there is a room for improvement here.

I really think Ankh of Mishra is garbage for this deck. We already take some damage from our lands, it doesn't really hurt our opponent's development that much, and it's just kind of a blank card a lot of the time (ie if you don't play it super early). I think you should use Tangle Wire[/card] over Ankh, because it is more useful on its own. Tsabo's Web seems decent, since it randomly hoses some decks, but Elsewhere Flask is also good to be able to fix your mana from time to time... That being said, they're both pretty much equally worthless without an [cards]Esperzoa in play.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

The list I'm currently testing:
MANA (28)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Island
4 Mox Diamond
2-DROPS (15)
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mix of Ankh of Mishra, Tsabo's Web and Elsewhere Flask
3-DROPS (13)
4 Master of Etherium
4 Esperzoa
2 Pilgrim's Eye
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Fabricate
4-DROPS (4)
4 Lodestone Golem

Some thoughts:
1) I don't like Thorn of Amethyst in the main. You spend 2 mana and a card and they need to cast 3 noncreature spells to at least offset your mana investment and you still have card disadvantage. Not good enough for me.
2) I'm testing different equips, but Jitte seems to be the best.
3) Crucible of Worlds was not bad. Wastelock is good in Legacy. But I don't like how the deck leans toward control.
4) Singleton Fabricate is here to help you find the missing parts of your synergies.
5) I rarely want to see two Esperzoas in the game and it needs other things to work properly, so I want cut one, but don't know how to replace it.
6) I'm in dought about that 4 Esperzoa-synergy cards. Turning Zoa into draw engine is awesome, but without Zoa Web and Flask are mediocre. Ankh is only good when you cast it in first 3 turns, so you need at least 3 copies to drop it early enough. I play 3 Ankh and 1 Web/Flask now and Fabricate helps me to catch opponent with Web, but there is a room for improvement here.

I really think Ankh of Mishra is garbage for this deck. We already take some damage from our lands, it doesn't really hurt our opponent's development that much, and it's just kind of a blank card a lot of the time (ie if you don't play it super early). I think you should use Tangle Wire over Ankh, because it is more useful on its own. Tsabo's Web seems decent, since it randomly hoses some decks, but Elsewhere Flask is also good to be able to fix your mana from time to time... That being said, they're both pretty much equally worthless without an Esperzoa in play.

Also, I feel like your list could use one more beater. Maybe either some Su-Chi or Trinket Mage + a small package of stuff like Pithing Needle, Basilisk Collar, Tormod's Crypt etc? Fuck, maybe even some Serendib Efreet? I feel like it's a bit of a liability to have all your creatures besides MoE have an ass of three or less.

[jrsthethird]

firemind what's your sideboard like?

[eq.firemind]

@ DukeDemonKn1ght
Tangle Wire is good, totally forget about it, thanks for reminding.

@ jrsthethird
It's not settled yet. Something like this:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3-4 Silent Arbiter
3-4 Pithing Needle
x Repeal
x Trinisphere

[jrsthethird]

Have you tried Wash Out against Progenitus? Doesn't seem like we have a good answer to him or Inkwell.

Not sure what your plan for Repeal is.

[Vacrix]

@ eq.firemind
Try running Tanglewire. Its bomb with Zoa. It slows down the game really well so you can connect with Zoa, though it might be better in the stax builds.

[Koby]

Llawan, Cephalid Empress is 10x better than Wash Out in that scenario, and also randomly good against Merfolk

[whosyourdaddy]

Hmm, it seems like you guys have changed your apprach to the deck a ton since I've last read this thread. I've got some random thoughts.

I'm thinking, since you already run a lot of lands wouldn't it make sense to squeeze some mishra's factories in? I know, you need many lands to fuel mox diamond, but it seems after you drop your hand you just sit there with a shit-ton of potencial mana doing nothing(especially without any way to refill your hand). Atleast mishra beats(and it gets +/+ from MoE, right?).

Also with Crucible maindeck Gargoyle Castle comes to mind to do some fancy tricks:) But it might just be mehh.

Oh, and do you guys think mindstone could be a good accel? I tseems like a decent t1 drop of tomb and it cycles later, when not needed.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Prophetic Prism :2:

Artifact
When Prophetic Prism enters the battlefield, draw a card.
:1:, (tap) : Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

Better than Elsewhere Flask as something to exploit Esperzoa with?

[Vacrix]

I was thinking the same thing. The only issue is that the deck is monocolor so it can't really use it except to draw a card. There were a few others in the spoiler that also lets you draw, but I think they were all mediocre
Tsabo's Web is still better IMO.

[jazzykat]

I was thinking the same thing. The only issue is that the deck is monocolor so it can't really use it except to draw a card. There were a few others in the spoiler that also lets you draw, but I think they were all mediocre
Tsabo's Web is still better IMO.

Well, this completely fixes the issue of blue mana IMO. Although the 1 activation keeps it from being HOT.

[Vacrix]

Wow I completely overlooked that. Great point. Maybe it is better then.

Does anyone actually test this deck? I'd like to see it develop some more, but unfortunately I cannot test with MWS (Mac issues).

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Well, this completely fixes the issue of blue mana IMO. Although the 1 activation keeps it from being HOT.

A cantripping, non-CIPT, any-color-producing Sky Diamond would be hotter than HOT. However, I think this card is still worth a look, since it's a way better color fixer than Flask is.

EDIT: @Vacrix: I would test it, but alas, I also cannot get MWS to work on a Mac.

[Koby]

My gut tells me that while this only filter mana, it achieves both card drawing and producing blue mana; both of which are the necessary part we've been looking for. Hopefully there's some other goodies to use in the rest of the spoilers.

[jazzykat]

My gut tells me that while this only filter mana, it achieves both card drawing and producing blue mana; both of which are the necessary part we've been looking for. Hopefully there's some other goodies to use in the rest of the spoilers.

IMO This is lightyears better than elsewhere flask. I really wanted to play with Tsabo's web (SOOOOO funny) but this is obviously more flexible as it fixes OUR mana.

If I have some time, I will test this with a large comittment to artifacts (blue or colorless) and a heavy sphere component.

I think everyone who follows these types of decks are waiting for Mirrodin 2.0 to give us the 1 or 2 more cards to make this and other similar decks very powerful.

[Kangaxx]

I'm not sure if this has been suggested, but Winter Orb is the best Esperzoa target and will probably always be.

[Vacrix]

Its alright. Unfortunately, your untap is before your upkeep so its not really that good. You can't bounce it and then untap and replay it. I think it makes more sense to use Ankh of Mishra, in that your opponent loses 5 life per fetch or 2 life per land while you can avoid it entirely if you have esperzoa down.

[Zork]

I'm not sure if this has been suggested, but Winter Orb is the best Esperzoa target and will probably always be.

I am going to heartily disagree here. Bouncing Orb with Zoa requires you to replay it after skipping most of an untap or suffer the wrong end of 1 sided disruption. I think Esperzoa is best combined with a slew of viable artifacts as opposed to a single target. Each of these are fine candidates:


Seat of the Synod
Sigil of Distinction
Engineered Explosives
Tangle Wire
Chalice of the Void


as well as any cantripping/citp effect artifacts that a deck can support.