Burning Elves! (by Pat Chapin)

[Swing4Five]

Patrick Chapin randomly threw a Legacy decklist @ the end of his article this week. It's obviously based off of the big Extended Elves Combo list that he looked @ and thought, "Wow, this would be insane if Burning Wish hadn't rotated."

Burning Elves!
A Legacy deck by Patrick Chapin and Manuel Bucher

4 Burning Wish
4 Land Grant
3 Glimpse of Nature

4 Summoner's Pact
1 Crop Rotation

4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Birchlore Ranger
4 Heritage Druid
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Quiron Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Sylvan Messenger
1 Regal Force
1 Eternal Witness

1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Pendlehaven
4 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
2 Stomping Ground
1 Forest

Sideboard:
1 Grapeshot
1 Hull Breach
1 Weird Harvest
1 Glimpse of Nature
1 Regrowth
1 Chain Lightning
1 Distant Melody
1 Deep Analysis
2 Viridian Shaman
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Thorn of Amethyst

Is this straight up weaker than the various Tendrils builds floating around the boards? Or does the ability to swing with 1/1 dorks if the combo fizzles or the ability to get around some forms of hate (Chalice looms high for this deck) via Burning Wish make this a viable option?

[yawg07]

Ehhhh Land Grant and lack of maindeck Viridian Shaman? No thanks, seems way weak.

[meanee]

If nothing else, a rise in popularity for this deck would once again warrent engineered plagues to come to a sideboard near you...

- meanee

[Resist_Temptation]

I cant see elves being good. Engineered explosives is really popular in my area, so killing a bunch of 1cc creatures would not be too difficult. unless they can go off turn 2 consistently, I dont see this deck doing very well. With the element of surprise you might be able to snake some wins.

[Patrick]

I posted about this elsewhere, but I appears Mr. Chapin forgot that Counter-Top is viable in this format. Also, cards like Chalice of the Void stop this deck. It has no maindeck answers for these cards. This is one of the worst attempts to port an Extended deck ever.

[Hopo]

Isn't Burning Wish a viable answer to many problems? Still, 1/1 tribal dudes are just too easy to hate with plague, cursed totem and so on.

[georgjorge]

This deck already has a thread under http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11264 - mostly without Wish, but some with it (see the last post for instance). I don't think adding Burning Wish warrants a new thread...

[ansset]

3 tropical island 1 DA 1 distant melody eh

Seriously, this deck WANTS to lose to:

Counterbalance/Top
Wasteland
Force of Will
Engineered Plague
Chalice of the Void
sometimes Blood Moon which you would think a monogreen deck would aim at NOT losing to

10/10 great deck Magic pros are the best etc

[Anusien]

Has anyone tested it? Is it fast enough to beat Counterbalance/Top? The 1.x version tried to win turns 2-3 and this build gained Gaea's Cradle.

Also it's worth pointing out that there are more sweepers and more Chalice of the Void in Extended than Legacy, and neither of them were barriers to victory.

See the funny thing about doing as well as PChapin is that your decks should be tested before they're scorned.

[Kainan]

Legacy is not extended with dual lands, just as legacy is not T1 unpowered.

This deck will not work in legacy, as it currently works in extended, for different reasons, including Counterbalance, faster combos, FoW, Cursed Totem, Pyrokinesis, E. Plague, Chalice of the Void and so on.

There are too many cards that hate the deck, Splash damage from other combo decks kill it too (E. Plague and CotV as main examples).

I would love to hear a word from the designers and why they choose these cards and if they tested the deck at all.

[Anusien]

Does Cursed Totem see the slightest bit of Legacy play or are you just looking for an excuse to try and one-up some of the best Constructed minds on the planet?

[Wobbles The Goose]

Merge? http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11264&page=7

I didn't want to post the list due to the fact that it's a premium article. But now that it's here, it seems better to have a single thread on combo elves rather than two.

[Wargoos]

Not one out of 3647 decks in legacy played cursed totem.

[matelml]

TES also loses to Chalice and CounterTop, but if you win the rest, it's enough. The deck doesn't look incredibly strong, but it could certainly be viable. I say: someone try it.
(also: there is absolutely no bias against pro's here:rolleyes: )

[TheLion]

3 tropical island 1 DA 1 distant melody eh

Seriously, this deck WANTS to lose to:

Counterbalance/Top
Wasteland
Force of Will
Engineered Plague
Chalice of the Void
sometimes Blood Moon which you would think a monogreen deck would aim at NOT losing to

10/10 great deck Magic pros are the best etc

Yes, 3 Tropicals for 2 Wishboard cards, while already having 4 Land Grant and 4 Rangers for colored Mana seems really strange.

Also, the Wishboard seems strange, too. Chain Lightning? Regrowth? Deed Analysis? I'd rather have solutions to the real problems.

I don't understand all the whining ala "card XY is in the format, therefore it is not viable". Those arguments always sound like "Don't play spell X because it can be countered, and creature Y will be destroyed anyway."

Every combo deck has it's weaknesses against disruption. And as mentioned other decks fold to Counterbalance, too. FoW stops most of them, too, Blood Moon and (recurring) Wasteland wrecks most decks, too. But it's no reason not to play those decks. (And with a better mana base, Moon/Wasteland should not harm Elves anyway).
The mana base of the posted deck is really crappy!
Oh, and most of those cards are even still Extended legal (Blood Moon, Counterbalance, Chalice, Engineered Explosives).

Btw: Why is this deck listed on deckcheck.net (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21876) without having had any success on a tournament?

[Patrick]

Yes, 3 Tropicals for 2 Wishboard cards, while already having 4 Land Grant and 4 Rangers for colored Mana seems really strange.

Also, the Wishboard seems strange, too. Chain Lightning? Regrowth? Deed Analysis? I'd rather have solutions to the real problems.

I don't understand all the whining ala "card XY is in the format, therefore it is not viable". Those arguments always sound like "Don't play spell X because it can be countered, and creature Y will be destroyed anyway."

Every combo deck has it's weaknesses against disruption. And as mentioned other decks fold to Counterbalance, too. FoW stops most of them, too, Blood Moon and (recurring) Wasteland wrecks most decks, too. But it's no reason not to play those decks. (And with a better mana base, Moon/Wasteland should not harm Elves anyway).
The mana base of the posted deck is really crappy!
Oh, and most of those cards are even still Extended legal (Blood Moon, Counterbalance, Chalice, Engineered Explosives).

Btw: Why is this deck listed on deckcheck.net (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21876) without having had any success on a tournament?

Because Pat Chapin made it, and he's the Innovator. :confused:

[Kainan]

The problem with this list is that dies to normal combo disruption AND to creature removal which is popular in the format. Even more, in legacy we have a few very efficient removals in the form of StP and Snuff Out, that can take out the key elf at the right moment, in the first 2 turns.

I have no grudge at all against Magic pros. In fact, I'd love to see more pro players playing this format and developing for it. But I would like to read as well playtest results and explanation of the card selection :D

Regarding Cursed Totem, maybe is not seeing much play right now, but the card is available in case any creature-based combo deck like this becomes popular.

[whienot]

Combo elves similar to this has been played in my meta, but hasn't done very well. E. Plague, EE, Pyroclasm, etc...

I do think it has potential though. Looks hella fun.

On the Totem: I played Cursted Totem when Cephalid Breakfast was heavy in my meta. It's not a bad card at all, just not good enough at the moment (like null rod).

[Eldariel]

Legacy has faster answers than Extended (Force, Daze, Snuff Out, StP, Bolts, etc. all see heavy play; not to mention Thoughtseize et co.), and the omnipresent Countertop that pretty much kills the Elves along with faster, more consistent combo-decks that actually don't need to rely on the most hated card type to win. I just can't see a reason to play Elves over Tendrils in this format. Oh yeah, and Deed is pretty huge too - a sweeper capable of functioning at instant speed throws a rather huge monkeywrench in the Elf-deck.

The Extended version sought to win turn 2-3, but didn't do so consistently (see Berlin coverage - it happened twice in the Top 8 over the dozens of games and is more of a "nuts-hand" than anything else). In Legacy, you'd need to do it consistently to be viable as a protectionless combo deck (well, you'd still be slower than Belcher, but you've got the "manplan" as a backup), and casting Burning Wish pretty much kills any hopes of winning turn 2.


It seems like a great "fun" deck, but it's trying to cram itself to a very competed metagame spot and it doesn't have any things to distinguish itself from the competitors.

[ChiiMagic]

Legacy is not extended with dual lands, just as legacy is not T1 unpowered.

I have to agree here. This deck seems to be the product of a lack of knowledge of the legacy format. Not to take away from Chapin or Manuel Bucher at all, because I really respect their decklists and ideas almost 90% of the time. This one though seems like it just wont get there. There already are decks that cast trinispheres and chalices on turn 1 in this format. Monowhite stax and Dragon stompy are definitely viable decks that simply laugh at 1cc spells. There is superior removal like has been mentioned above, but especially brutal to them would be Fire/Ice or pyroclasms. Force of Will, a defining card of Legacy seems to me to be a huge obstacle to this deck to overcome. The ability to counter glimpse of nature on the second turn is something that extended didn't really have an option to do. If you are going to play a deck that is just a super fast combo, why not play belcher? It seems to me that some pros might need a guide to legacy decks and metagames.

[DireLemming]

I'm sorry WHAT??? Since when the living hell are there more Chalices in Extended - which has a very diverse mana curve and limited t1 acceleration - than in Legacy?
Judging by deckcheck.net it's not that big of a difference. About 12% of Extended decks have CotV main or in sideboard versus ~14% for Legacy. Bear in mind though the new Extended is a very young format (as of time of writting only 323 decks) while the Legacy archives span 4 years (for a total of 3647 decks) of changing metagame.

[Anusien]

I'm sorry WHAT??? Since when the living hell are there more Chalices in Extended - which has a very diverse mana curve and limited t1 acceleration - than in Legacy?

As far as sweepers go, I'm not remotely convinced that Extended or Legacy plays significantly more of them, but the sweepers that do see regular play in Legacy are significantly more inimical to Elves! game plan than the sweepers that see regular play in extended are.

Do you even think before you type? Or do the words just spill out onto the page?
Until Dragon Stompy (edit: and European Aggro Loam with Chalice instead of Thoughtseize) came about, and people tell me it has faded, the only decks that played Chalice of the Void were dramatically more expensive than every other deck. Nowadays it's a little bit better, but most decks, and by most decks I mean the good ones with Brainstorm and Top, are still too clogged at the 1 drop to run Chalice. By contrast most non-Zoo, non-Elves decks have very few 1 drops and can afford to run Chalice.
Plus there's this Elves! deck that's pretty good and forces most people to run Chalice.
Oh and most of those decks run Chrome Mox too. Not that you need a turn 1 Chalice to be effective.

As for sweepers; a few decks in Legacy run like 1-3 Engineered Explosives and a handle sb 1-3 Firespout or Pyroclasm. The #1 deck in 1.x is Elves and going into PT Berlin the #1 was expected to be Zoo. So Engineered Explosives and Firespouts aplenty, as well as a handful of Jund Charms.

Edit: If you are crying about Wasteland, I strongly recommend you look into more advantageous uses of Crop Rotation and Quirion Ranger.

[frenchy-man]

errrr

aggro loam is not very played anymore, since there's much more combo (who said ANT??)...
So is DS, but not for the same reasons.

On the other hand, I think that the numbervcalices in sideboards have increased, especially because of ANT & cie.

I've played against an elves last WE (with dreadstill, 33 people) at table 2 in the last round. I lost. But it was an aggro elfe. Perhaps mixing the aggro shell and the combo could be a good option, since it better resist to calice and EE...