Best aggro control deck

[undone]

Ok, so There are 4 things to note about this thread.

1) it was spawned off worlds results although they may mean nothing.

2) Threshold vs team america vs dreadstill vs whatever

3) If threshold/dreadstill what varient is best and why.

4) Assume totaly random metagame and nothing else about the meta.

[DalkonCledwin]

I would say the best Aggro Control decks are either a Sui Black varient (excluding Team America) or a Threshold Variant (but excluding Team America).

The problem with Team America is that it is incredibly easy to hate out, and probably won't do very well in a fully developed (read Grand Prix sized) meta. Nor will it do well in a meta that is entirely expecting its presence.

The problem with Dreadstill is that it is far more of a Control deck than it is an Aggro deck.

Meanwhile Threshold is definitely an Aggro Control deck, as is any Sui Black variant other than Team America.

[undone]

If the above is true what varients/colors of threshold do you believe would be best in a random metagame? The strength of countertop or the LD tempo versions?

[DalkonCledwin]

If the above is true what varients/colors of threshold do you believe would be best in a random metagame? The strength of countertop or the LD tempo versions?

That I am not entirely sure of. Personally if I were going to run Threshold, it would probably be a Swans or Canadian Thresh variant... but without the Counterbalance, as I think that is too slow for a diversified / random meta.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In two months, Team America has pretty much destroyed Top 8's across the world.

It's obsoleted faster aggro-control decks, including Canadian Thresh.

But, Team America is still basically Philosophy of Fire. If you consider aggro-control to be Philosophy of Water, I think it comes down to Fairy Stompy or Dreadstill. I like the former better, but the latter has put up more consistent results, so.

[FoolofaTook]

Maybe one of the BGW Survival decks. Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Aether Vial, Survival of the Fittest and a very strong toolbox of creatures to exploit.

[DalkonCledwin]

In two months, Team America has pretty much destroyed Top 8's across the world.

It's obsoleted faster aggro-control decks, including Canadian Thresh.

But, Team America is still basically Philosophy of Fire. If you consider aggro-control to be Philosophy of Water, I think it comes down to Fairy Stompy or Dreadstill. I like the former better, but the latter has put up more consistent results, so.

Honestly, I do not see how Dreadstill can be considered Aggro Control... I mean sure it uses an giant beatstick as a win condition, but in the end, don't all non-milling / non-burn related decks use some form of beat stick to win the game? In any case, aggro control is about a balance between control and aggro... at least I think so. And Team America is more of a resource denial deck than it is a Control deck, which is why I don't think it qualifies as Aggro Control anyways.

[Mister Agent]

Dreadstill is in fact an aggro control deck. It has a whole facet of draw spells, countermagic, and also plays threats as in creatures. Not to mention it also runs counterbalance to play like those conventional Balanced Threshold lists if necassary.

Also well said Jack.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Dreadstill can shift between playing control and playing aggro. It can win quite fast, or it can stall the game. Especially the Tarmogoyf lists. Team America, conversely, is almost always the aggressor.

[Rood]

Honestly, I do not see how Dreadstill can be considered Aggro Control... I mean sure it uses an giant beatstick as a win condition, but in the end, don't all non-milling / non-burn related decks use some form of beat stick to win the game? In any case, aggro control is about a balance between control and aggro... at least I think so. And Team America is more of a resource denial deck than it is a Control deck, which is why I don't think it qualifies as Aggro Control anyways.

Depends which variant of Dreadstill you're talking about. The versions with Goyf in it UGR, etc are indeed aggro control variants. If you play UR Dreadstill then you're not really playing Aggro-Control your playing Combo-Control. I don't consider Dreadnought a creature he's just a combo that wins if he stays in play for two turns really.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

And this is why the term "combo" has long been worse than useless.

Dreadnaught-Stifle is a combination of cards; so is Goblin Warchief-Goblin Piledriver. Or any two Slivers. But does it follow the Philosophy of Air; does Jrednot win by being intangible, unattackable, by sidestepping the relevant threats or answers of the format? It's an artifact creature with no significant protection against non-red removal, so no, it doesn't do that. So, no, still an aggro-control deck, Philosophy of Water, in my opinion.

[AngryTroll]

As far as the real aggro-control decks go (so excluding DreadStill), it's probably UBW Meathooks. We've felt that way for quite a while; it has a positive Thresh match, and has Thresh-like matchups against most of the rest of the format.

Nightmare's Painter list might be in the running as well. It packs the countermagic Thresh has with a combo finish that makes most opposing removal dead and wins the game in a hurry. I am not sure why it doesn't see more play.

Seriously, what are good matchups for Threshold anymore? Combo? Really? Does Thresh consistently beat TES or ANT anymore?

Landstill remains tough, combo has gotten better, and the decks that prey on Thresh are becoming more and more prevalent (Team America, Aggro Loam, Survival, Landstill)...about the only good news is a downswing in the popularity of Dragon Stompy.

Survival is almost an aggro control deck, but I think I'd rather call it a Mid-Game deck than an Aggro Control deck. It has almost as much hand disruption as Thresh packs Countermagic, and plays the same amount of removal. Instead of cantrips, it packs the Survival Engine, which is more swingy but less consistent than eight cantrips to back up Top.

[matelml]

UGWB Uberfish. Almost certainly.
4 Goyf
4 Confidant
2 Grunt
4 Thoughtseize
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 Counterbalance
3 Top
2 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
8 fetch
3 Trops
2 Tundra's
2 Sea's
1 Isle
1 Swamp
1 Plains

[Shugyosha]

In two months, Team America has pretty much destroyed Top 8's across the world.

It's obsoleted faster aggro-control decks, including Canadian Thresh.

But, Team America is still basically Philosophy of Fire. If you consider aggro-control to be Philosophy of Water, I think it comes down to Fairy Stompy or Dreadstill. I like the former better, but the latter has put up more consistent results, so.

Team America definately has Top8 appearances but there is a difference between one deck in Top8 and things like this Ad Nauseam (http://www.deckcheck.net/deckbreakdown.php?event=2734) Top8 mayhem for example.
I also don't think it can obsolete Canadian Thresh because they have different pros and cons. The deckchoice depends on the meta. I would never go into a field with many Aggrodecks with Team America. 4 Bolt and 4 F/I is simply a much better plan then.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

As far as the real aggro-control decks go (so excluding DreadStill), it's probably UBW Meathooks. We've felt that way for quite a while; it has a positive Thresh match, and has Thresh-like matchups against most of the rest of the format.

Nightmare's Painter list might be in the running as well. It packs the countermagic Thresh has with a combo finish that makes most opposing removal dead and wins the game in a hurry. I am not sure why it doesn't see more play.

I like you first dismiss the arguments I articulated as to why Dreadstill is an aggro-control deck, and then you pack in a combo deck.

You keep on... doing whatever it is you're doing.

Stay classy, Baltimore.

[undone]

As far as the real aggro-control decks go (so excluding DreadStill), it's probably UBW Meathooks. We've felt that way for quite a while; it has a positive Thresh match, and has Thresh-like matchups against most of the rest of the format.

Nightmare's Painter list might be in the running as well. It packs the countermagic Thresh has with a combo finish that makes most opposing removal dead and wins the game in a hurry. I am not sure why it doesn't see more play.

Seriously, what are good matchups for Threshold anymore? Combo? Really? Does Thresh consistently beat TES or ANT anymore?

Landstill remains tough, combo has gotten better, and the decks that prey on Thresh are becoming more and more prevalent (Team America, Aggro Loam, Survival, Landstill)...about the only good news is a downswing in the popularity of Dragon Stompy.

Survival is almost an aggro control deck, but I think I'd rather call it a Mid-Game deck than an Aggro Control deck. It has almost as much hand disruption as Thresh packs Countermagic, and plays the same amount of removal. Instead of cantrips, it packs the Survival Engine, which is more swingy but less consistent than eight cantrips to back up Top.

When did threshold get bad O.o Now im confused. Threshold running counter top seems fine against alot of decks. Also team america doesnt "pray on thresh" it is an even skill dependant matchup and possibly favorable for white thresh as they have stalker removal.

It seems that decks running ponder + brainstorm + force + goyf are automaticaly good in this format dispite the rest of the deck.

[Omega]

playing against dreadstill with my t_reshold about 4-5 times. I havent lost a match. It depends on draw obviously. But with STP md, you can easily answer a 12/12. Things can get complicated if they play slowly and try to resolve cb/top first

I think right now, with Team America (apparently raping top8 all over the world), with Dreadstill establishing itself as a very good deck. I think UGW tres_hold is definately the splash to go. Swords to Plowshare is obviously one key cards in both matchups. Goyfs, Dreadnought and Tombstalker can be answered fairly easily. Otherwise, traditional counter can work too.
Basic lands are obviously needed against both Team America and Dreadstill. Both run stifle wasteland. One even run sinkhole. I dont know about you, but Team America reminds me of the old days when there were Dead Guy ale decks. You know, the BW disruption deck with land denial and discard.

The deck I would least use in a random metagame is Team America. I just dont have enough experience with it to conclude whether it is a good deck, or just hyped. Ive seen some in action in my local tournaments. And they lost against tier2 decks (Apparently, Magus of the Moon totally destroy Team America, deck that plays land denial too can screw team america) In my testings with a guy who played Team America and me UGBW landstill, he still wasn't capable of winning. I mean, you can't really have a worse mana base than UGBW landstill. That said, i know he was able to demolish some ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh in testing.

Robert

[Bardo]

Honestly, I do not see how Dreadstill can be considered Aggro Control... I mean sure it uses an giant beatstick as a win condition, but in the end, don't all non-milling / non-burn related decks use some form of beat stick to win the game? In any case, aggro control is about a balance between control and aggro... at least I think so. And Team America is more of a resource denial deck than it is a Control deck, which is why I don't think it qualifies as Aggro Control anyways.

Is it ever true that you're playing Daze and not playing aggro-control?

I do agree that there's "a balance between aggro and control," which is why we can simplify, replace the "and" with a "-" and call it "aggro-control." ;)

@ OP - "Best deck" is always hard to quantify. For one, we'd need a lot of tournament data to aggregate; what is "best?" There are wide variances in match-up win/lose rates even within the same archetype, that it's really hard to say. Take Threshold. Do you run CB/Top; Wasteland/Stifle; Bob/TS; Ugwr, Ugwb, Ubg, etc.? Take those configurations and run them through a gauntlet and results are too varied to make any sweeping conclusions.

I like Team America, and it seems like an evolution of Threshold to focus on disruption; while Dreadstill is a reconcept of the aggro-control idea (Stifle-Dreadnought; Factory-Standstill). Though watching TA lose a heart-breaker in the finals of Ray's tournament a few weeks ago, after it had completely realized its strategy (TS, multiple Sinkholes, Ponders, and a Tombstalker), only to be blown out by Price of Progress and Fireblast was concerning.

I think the "better" your metagame (i.e. more expensive decks), the better TA becomes; the more random and janky your meta, Dreadstill is a better pick. Not sure where Threshold fits in this whole scheme.

As undone says: Ponder, CB, Brainstorm, Force of Will and Tarmogoyf make any deck "good," though not necessarily "better" than another deck which can more effectively exploit those cards.

In short, not sure, though I like Matelm's Fish list above. That's the only thing I'm certain of. :)

[Captain Hammer]

Thresh and Team America have the unfortunate side effect of rolling over and dying to nonbasic hate (Blood Moon, B2B, Wasteland + Crucible lock, PoP etc).

I would go with Eva Green or possibly Dread Stalker.

The combination of Tombstalker with a other ridiculous threats like Goyf or Dreadnought and land destruction is just too damn powerful.

I personally prefer Eva Green because it's the only decks that didn't feel threat lite ie. didn't crap out on me by not having enough ways to kill off the opponent.

Also, any of the chalice based decks playing City of Traitors + Ancient Tomb rank right up there too. Atleast the versions that have reliable manabases (Armageddon Stax).

[socialite]

Faerie Stompy.

Has all the tools to hate out any Meta. Laughs at Counter-Top. Is extremely customizable.

For all you haters out there: It don't put up results cuz no good homies state side are playing it.

[Ch@os]

Thresh and Team America have the unfortunate side effect of rolling over and dying to nonbasic hate (Blood Moon, B2B, Wasteland + Crucible lock, PoP etc).


Nope, most Thresh' builds play 3-4 basics and sometimes BtB by itself.

[Jaiminho]

Nope, most Thresh' builds play 3-4 basics and sometimes BtB by itself.

There are also UGr Swans lists with Moons in the SB. Running 8 fetchlands, 8 duals and -3 basics follows the Philosophy of Dirt.

[AngryTroll]

Dreadnaught-Stifle is a combination of cards; so is Goblin Warchief-Goblin Piledriver. Or any two Slivers. But does it follow the Philosophy of Air; does Jrednot win by being intangible, unattackable, by sidestepping the relevant threats or answers of the format? It's an artifact creature with no significant protection against non-red removal, so no, it doesn't do that. So, no, still an aggro-control deck, Philosophy of Water, in my opinion.


I like you first dismiss the arguments I articulated as to why Dreadstill is an aggro-control deck, and then you pack in a combo deck.


*Disclaimer: I was referring to the UR lists without Goyf

I feel like Dreadstill is more of a control deck with a combo finish than an Aggro Control deck. You are arguing that it is an aggrocontrol deck because its win condition is easy to kill? It's also running manlands and Standstill, definitely a control route to victory.

I will admit, you could certainly play the deck like an aggro control deck if you wanted to, leading with aggressive Dreadnaughts and protecting them until you win. I was under the impression that the deck played a much slower, control game until it was ready to win with Dreadnaught. The fact that Dreadnaught requires a full two turns after it is cast means that it has to be protected for that entire time, which discourages running one out until you can protect it for the win.

Establishing control of the game, then finally getting around to winning? Sounds like Control, whether you use Dreadnaught, Morphling, Mishra's Factories, or a soldier tokens. If the gameplan was to cast Dreadnaught and just hold onto it long enough to win, using counters to keep it in play just long enough to swing twice, that's more of an aggro-control route. Taking control of the long game, then winning? Control.


On the other hand, that EPIC Painter list had all the control elements of Thresh, but won on the spot when it felt like it. Instead of messing around with Goyfs, it suddenly wins with Painter Stone.

Aggro-Control: Running threats out there, disruptiong the opponent long enough to deal 20 across the table.
Control: Answering opponents' threats, survive to the mid to late game, (usually gain some card advantage along the way), win when you have firm control of the game.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I am arguing that a deck is defined in it's role by it's style of play.

Philosophy of Fire: Straight for the throat. Team America is an aggro deck.
Philosophy of Stone: Lets the opponent break themselves on card advantage and superior answers. Mighty Quinn is a control deck.
Philosophy of Air: Avoids entanglement by seeking threats or sometimes answers that are outside the mainstream consciousness of the format. ANT is a combo deck.

Philosophy of Water: Shifts between threats and answers, trying to keep the opponent off balance. Dreadstill is Philosophy of Water; it wouldn't work if it was always a control deck. It wouldn't work if it was always an aggro deck. It works because it shifts between the two and is difficult to nail down.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Faerie Stompy.

Has all the tools to hate out any Meta. Laughs at Counter-Top. Is extremely customizable.

For all you haters out there: It don't put up results cuz no good homies state side are playing it.
The only reason more people don't play FS is because Sea Drakes cost about $100 for a set, strictly on the premise of rarity.

To me, there are three "best" agro control decks and all are slightly dependent on play style and metagame. They are:

Team America
Ur Dreadstill
Canadian Threshold

[3duece]

Yeah, it seems team america and canadian thresh win here, maybe white thresh with meddling mage and countertop is up there too. Also, Sea Drakes are $35 to $45 each now, but totally worth it just to play that deck.

[socialite]

Never understood the argument about Sea Drakes. Tarmogoyfs are just as bad. Sea Drakes have also gone down in price quite a bit.

That aside:

Canadian Thresh is garbage IMO.

Dreadstill seems to be where its at for the moment, but I am sure Faerie Stompy versus Dreadstill would be a good show.

[Jak]

So I am guessing aggro-control means a deck that can switch gears from a nice controlling game, going into an aggressive mode to win the game quickly? If so, I would have to go with Dreadstill or Team America. Threshold has really been off the radar for a while now since there are better ways to abuse CB, there are bigger threats than a Nimble Mongoose for around the same mana cost (Nought, 2cc and Stalker, 2cc), and it doesn't do anything else, ie disrupt mana or gain CA in any way. That's the way I see it.

[Rood]

Team America is definetally the evolution tempo of what Threshold is at now. Both decks are very similiar yet it really comes down to do you want Tombstalker or a 3/3 shroud? Threshold is still a very good deck but Swan Thresh seems to be the most appealing for now at least. Dreadstill is definetally right there with TA both decks can win retardedly fast plus have a crazy disruption package. I think the edge Dreadstill has over other Aggro control decks is it's draw engine. Standstill is insane.

[Arkham]

Aggro Loam for best aggro-control deck. It has answers for pretty much most of the current format, and has one of the best engines when it comes to trying to lay pieces down and lock an opponent out of the game.

I was kind of surprised when I saw the guy's list at worlds who ran the deck and the first thing I wondered was how he made it so far with some of his build choices, the biggest thing being that he hamstringed his creature list (Either use dark confidants or don't, but the one thing that should never be cut in this deck, especially for those, is terravores). His landbase was also a little shocking, which I'm personally glad he got knocked out because I'd really hate having people call his version of the deck the new status quo for aggro loam.

Out of the top 4 at worlds, I think the only thing Aggro Loam should have any real trouble with is Team America. Dreadstill and White Stax roll over to Aggro Loam in it's current form, anyway.

[DalkonCledwin]

out of curiousity, you are all listing various philosophies:

Philosophy of Fire (that one I know)

but the ones I don't know are:

Philosophy of Water
Philosophy of Air
Philosophy of Dirt????

is there an article somewhere that lists all of these Philosophies for Magic the Gathering and how they came about, what they mean, etc... or even somewhere on this site would work....

[Bardo]

Definitely an article-worthy topic, but I'm pretty sure the non-Philosophy of Fire "philosophies" are IBA's invention.

Not clearly related, but Dave Chapman's (aka Jedit) application of Musashi's Book of Five Rings is pretty sweet:

Scroll of Earth (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/6211_Five_Rings_Five_Colors_The_Scroll_Of_Earth.html)
Scroll of Water (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/6252_Five_Rings_Five_Colors_Part_Two_The_Scroll_Of_Water.html)
Scroll of Fire (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/6370_Five_Rings_Five_Colors_Part_3_The_Scroll_of_Fire.html)
Scroll of Wind and Ghost (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/6408_Fiver_Rings_Five_Colors_Part_4_The_Scrolls_of_Wind_and_Void.html)

[scrumdogg]

Aggro Loam for best aggro-control deck. It has answers for pretty much most of the current format, and has one of the best engines when it comes to trying to lay pieces down and lock an opponent out of the game.

I was kind of surprised when I saw the guy's list at worlds who ran the deck and the first thing I wondered was how he made it so far with some of his build choices, the biggest thing being that he hamstringed his creature list (Either use dark confidants or don't, but the one thing that should never be cut in this deck, especially for those, is terravores). His landbase was also a little shocking, which I'm personally glad he got knocked out because I'd really hate having people call his version of the deck the new status quo for aggro loam.

Out of the top 4 at worlds, I think the only thing Aggro Loam should have any real trouble with is Team America. Dreadstill and White Stax roll over to Aggro Loam in it's current form, anyway.

I like Aggro-Loam quite a bit and have been playing & experimenting with different builds and color combinations (with some success). However, last week we had 2x Belcher, Solidarity, ANT and a home brew combo deck show up. I played both Belchers & the Solidarity in 4 rounds, going 1-2 with a lucky Belch for 3 into the Bayou in the deck Game 3. Round 4 I got to play some poor guy that wasn't an optimized combo to finish 2-2 :) To be the best aggro-control deck in the format, you have to be able to run with combo - and Aggro-Loam can't. I may still bring it to Chicago, as it does a number on most other aggro, aggro-control, & control...and then hope the blue based aggro-control eats all the combo...but that is a desperate play.

[Arkham]

To be the best aggro-control deck in the format, you have to be able to run with combo - and Aggro-Loam can't.

Somewhat true, but with 2/3 of the format already in Aggro Loam's pocket, shouldn't combo be considered an acceptable 50/50 match? I'm not sure what kind of list you're running, but with the use of chalice in the mainboard and some folks even bringing in stuff like thorn of the amethyst, combo has ceased to be a match-up that we just scoop to. But, yeah, I'll admit that Aggro Loam's greatest weakness right now is combo.

[scrumdogg]

Somewhat true, but with 2/3 of the format already in Aggro Loam's pocket, shouldn't combo be considered an acceptable 50/50 match? I'm not sure what kind of list you're running, but with the use of chalice in the mainboard and some folks even bringing in stuff like thorn of the amethyst, combo has ceased to be a match-up that we just scoop to. But, yeah, I'll admit that Aggro Loam's greatest weakness right now is combo.

Combo is an abysmal matchup in my experience, not even close to 50/50. I run CotV MD (as it should be). With 7 Wish targets & 4 Krosan Grip, however, I can only devote 4 slots SB to anti-combo cards (and even those slots are in contention, since combo is so bad for us where lies the line between shoring up bad matchups & pissing away slots?). The other problem lies in having to mull to the hate (as our draw engine is slower than combo) and having to run out the protection blind vs blue based combo or too late versus Turn 1/2 combo. I took all three matches to three games, but that was as much their decks failing at a crucial moment as my deck working properly. God help you if you lose the die roll as well, making the situation go from bad to worse. Until Aggro-Loam can deal with combo (or ensure the lack of combo in a tournament) it cannot claim to be the best aggro-control deck nor will it be the best choice for a large tournament (in the States).

[Omega]

in the end, everyone ends up defending their deck as the best aggro-control :O

The term control can somewhat be misleading. Most people, and myself, believe control has something to do with countermagic.

Robert

[scrumdogg]

in the end, everyone ends up defending their deck as the best aggro-control :O

The term control can somewhat be misleading. Most people, and myself, believe control has something to do with countermagic.

Robert

That is an important segment of the control universe, but by no means comprehensive. If I can control what you cast/play/use - whether by selective or repetitive LD, discard, Chalice or Trinisphere effects - then how can you state that is not control? As for the 'best' aggro-control deck, how can it even be defined when we don't have an agreed upon meta? If this question is leading toward GP Chicago, is there a consensus on what will be played there, as that would help define any 'best' deck. Quite frankly, with the tournament almost 4 months away & the format getting a completely new set before then, how can any prediction made now be accurate?

[Omega]

How about we make a hypothetical metagame? In the name of argumentation, we take an "ideal" metagame where there will be an equal representation of every major deck type (including or excluding "bad deck. Ideally i guess, in such metagame, there will only be competitive legacy decks). In such metagame, what would be the best aggro/control deck?

Not sure if that helps :O

Robert

"scrumdogg " Thank you for the post. But I think that this sort of control is kind of weaker than actual counter magic. IE : land destruction can fail, where counterspell will always be counterspell

[Captain Hammer]

I'm surprised that everyone is ignoring Dread Stalker.

It combines Dreadstill's best threat with Team America's best threat, and plays all the major control elements of both decks.

[nitewolf9]

I'm surprised that everyone is ignoring Dread Stalker.

It combines Dreadstill's best threat with Team America's best threat, and plays all the major control elements of both decks.

It doesn't have standstill or counterbalance to protect dreadnought/compensate for your opponent 2 for 1ing your creatures, which is a problem. Team America used to be U/b, and we ran dreadnoughts instead of tarmogoyf for a bit after dreadnought's errata to try it out. It was just too much of a liability, specifically against threshold or goblins. I think dreadstill makes the most effective usage of dreadnought as a threat.

[Omega]

hybridation of decks doesn't always work.

Trying things like dreadaffinity, dreadtreshold made me realize how it doesn't always work as i would want it to. Dreadnought by itself is dead card and card disadvantage. You somehow need Standstill to regain that disadvantage. However, none of the two hybridations i tried were able to include cards to regain the disadvantage. Also, Standstill by itself force a deck into a certain way. You need to be able to abuse standstill to play it. (mishra's + wasteland usually)

Sure, random turn two dreadnought will win you game (it will in any hybridation). But does that justify splashing 4 stifle +4 dreadnought in a random deck? That's 8 slots, which is alot. Tarmogoyf can be splashed into any deck. It's a strong card on itselfé
And random turn two dreadnought can and will be countered by removal or by countermagic.

Robert

[Captain Hammer]

What hybridization?

You seem to think that Dread Stalker is a hybrid of Dreadstill and Team America. In reality, Dread Stalker predated Team America by quite a bit.

Dread Stalker was initially a Dreadstill deck that used black as the splash color and played Tombstalker alongside the standard Dreadstill package.

I still think that's probably the best direction for the deck, and possibly the best build of the deck overall. And yes, I think it's among the best dreadstill variants. IMO, Tombstalker is a superior threat to Tarmogoyf. It's harder to kill both due to it's cc and it's color, and it has evasion and can't be chumpblocked.

[scrumdogg]

How about we make a hypothetical metagame? In the name of argumentation, we take an "ideal" metagame where there will be an equal representation of every major deck type (including or excluding "bad deck. Ideally i guess, in such metagame, there will only be competitive legacy decks). In such metagame, what would be the best aggro/control deck?

Not sure if that helps :O

Robert

"scrumdogg " Thank you for the post. But I think that this sort of control is kind of weaker than actual counter magic. IE : land destruction can fail, where counterspell will always be counterspell

Tu as raison, I agree completely that situational control elements are weaker than countermagic...but they are still valid & cannot be disregarded completely as control (was my point). Good decks which utilize them properly have a much greater chance to be successful, although it is harder to do so than with counters (which by default tend to have better draw/tutor/cantrip/filters as well as generically answering damn near everything) :cool:

As to postulating an 'ideal' metagame, that would make sense...except such does not & probably will never exist. Making my point, I suppose, that threads of this nature have little real value since the debate has no framework in which to evaluate the claims (and claimants).

[Omega]

'As to postulating an 'ideal' metagame, that would make sense...except such does not & probably will never exist. Making my point, I suppose, that threads of this nature have little real value since the debate has no framework in which to evaluate the claims (and claimants).'

I cannot agree more. But it's always nice listenning to people defending their pet deck :). I also hate the "Deck A is stronger than Deck B" debate.


Stax elements were always one of my favorite control tool (Cotv, Sphere of resistance and now thorn of amethyst). But it is always frustrating when opponent manage to get out of this sort of control.
This is mainly why i ended up with blue. The ability to tutor/draw to find response is always nicer than relying totally on the starting hand (for stax deck of course)

Robert

[Omega]

"What hybridization?

You seem to think that Dread Stalker is a hybrid of Dreadstill and Team America. In reality, Dread Stalker predated Team America by quite a bit.

Dread Stalker was initially a Dreadstill deck that used black as the splash color and played Tombstalker alongside the standard Dreadstill package.

I still think that's probably the best direction for the deck, and possibly the best build of the deck overall. And yes, I think it's among the best dreadstill variants. IMO, Tombstalker is a superior threat to Tarmogoyf. It's harder to kill both due to it's cc and it's color, and it has evasion and can't be chumpblocked."

Captain_Hammer : Maybe you can provide me with a list? I am not familiar with the deck/deck's history. But i was aiming attempt at hybridization at large.

But let's see : Dreadstill use Landstill and CB/top. Both are powerful engine.
Team America, on the other hand, uses the powerful Tombstalker, and use discard/ 4 more LD elements (sinkhole. Both deck use Stifle and Wasteland).

Someone pointed out that Dreadstalker does not use CB/top combo, nor Standstill.

On its own, Dreadnought is weak. Easily destroyed. CB acts as a shield for Dreadnought. When i lose to dreadstill, usually, its because opponent manage to cast a CB and then cast a Dreadnought. That's already 1 weakness for the deck (theorical weakness if you want)
Lack of standstill. Im guessing dreadstalker uses 4 brainstorm 4 ponder. That means that the deck has no way of generating card advantage. Ive already pointed out that Dreadnought on its own is dead card. Combined with stifle, its card disadvantage (although having a 12/12 trample is quite advantageous). So everytime you will attempt to cast dreadnought and it fails, you will lose two cards.

Without a list, that's as much as i can say. Not saying you are wrong. I cant really with the lack of knowledge of the deck and testing, but Dreadstill are pulling good results so far. I havent seen any DreadStalker around

Robert

[Sek'Kuar]

I'm Gonna have to say Eva Green. The discard, land destruction, and removal are very difficult to play through, and Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf are ridiculous clocks. The deck is just too efficient to be ignored. Maybe I'm just biased because it's my personal fave...

[e_hawk77]

merfolk anyone???

[nitewolf9]

*crickets*

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Definitely an article-worthy topic, but I'm pretty sure the non-Philosophy of Fire "philosophies" are IBA's invention.

Sort of. The terms aggro, aggro-control, control, combo, lend themselves to people trying to define via cards what role the deck plays, and that way lies frustration and madness. Philosophy of ___ indicates how the deck is actually played, which is more useful. Team America and Dreadstill share a number of the same cards, but they operate under very different functions. Although the deck has "answers", Team America is very much a Philosophy of Fire deck because it can't really play the control route, the way that Dreadstill or CB-Thresh or Fairy/Dragon Stompy can.


Philosophy of Dirt????

Philosoph of Dirt: Have a positive matchup against the entire metagame.

[Rood]

Dreadnought won't work on it's own really without some way to regain the CA (Dark Confidant/Standstill.) Running cheap filter cantrips to establish the combo is all fun and all, but without a way to refill your hand after you get 2 for 1'd you mind as well scoop up your cards. Also both TA and Dreadstill while aggro control decks they seek it in very different manners. TA relies on just screwing you out of all your resources and crushing with huge creatures. Dreadstill while it can deny you of your resources mainly relies on the back of Counterbalance/Standstill...which are two of the most powerful cards in legacy.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Philosoph of Dirt: Have a positive matchup against the entire metagame.

:laugh:

[RogueMTG]

...In any case, aggro control is about a balance between control and aggro... at least I think so. And Team America is more of a resource denial deck than it is a Control deck, which is why I don't think it qualifies as Aggro Control anyways.

Gee, you could almost say that it maybe.. controls the opponent's available resources? :eek:!

I'm surprised to see little to no love for counterslivers/meathooks.

Admittedly it's probably not the best aggro/control deck. But it is one that defines the term pretty well.

I've been beating thresh up w/it all day...Tombstalkers on the other hand have been having a field day with me. :frown:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Gee, you could almost say that it maybe.. controls the opponent's available resources? :eek:!

No it doesn't.

The control elements in Team America are not meant to knock the opponent out. They're merely the cover fire while the tanks roll in.

Conversely, a deck like Dreadstill can play the control route almost indefinitely.

Team America almost always loses the late game and has no way to generate card advantage. Aggro deck. Philosophy of Fire. In truth, it has as much in common with traditional SuiBlack or Sligh, in terms of playstyle, as it does with Threshold.

[Omega]

Goyf are down to 22 and are playable in about every possible legacy deck. Sea Drake is not. In fact, sea drake seems to be limited to one deck, FS.
Fetch, Duals are all playable in multiple decks.

"Main problem of FS is that it has very negative mulligan matchups."
Agreed. A deck that is inconsistent, no matter how powerful it can be, is not "the perfect tool" to hate out any meta.

If FS was so "OMG".deck, people would build. It's not. So we don't waste 160$ on a playset of useless ugly blue flying beast

Robert

[Pulp_Fiction]

Goyf are down to 22 and are playable in about every possible legacy deck. Sea Drake is not. In fact, sea drake seems to be limited to one deck, FS.
Fetch, Duals are all playable in multiple decks.

"Main problem of FS is that it has very negative mulligan matchups."
Agreed. A deck that is inconsistent, no matter how powerful it can be, is not "the perfect tool" to hate out any meta.

If FS was so "OMG".deck, people would build. It's not. So we don't waste 160$ on a playset of useless ugly blue flying beast

Robert

QTF, very well said!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If FS was so "OMG".deck, people would build.

This doesn't necessarily follow. For instance, people don't play Quinn very often.

[Mantis]

People don't play Quinn because it's a hard deck to pilot correctly. People give it a shot, fail with it and move on to the next deck or back to their old one. While I do think the deck is very strong, it takes up huge amounts of time to learn to play the deck competently.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't think that's a function of Quinn specifically so much as people being bad at playing control. Even Landstill most people try to play like it's Thresh with Wraths. A lot of them even build it that way.

A very good book with numerous applicable strategies for playing control, Magic, and life in general;

The 33 Strategies of War (http://www.amazon.com/33-Strategies-War-Robert-Greene/dp/0670034576)

[Kuma]

If Sea Drakes were readily available and affordable, Faerie Stompy would be a permanent resident of the DTB forum. The deck has virtually no bad matchups. You'll have to mulligan more than say, Threshold, but it barely cuts into your winning if you make smart decisions.

[b4r0n]

If Sea Drakes were readily available and affordable, Faerie Stompy would be a permanent resident of the DTB forum. The deck has virtually no bad matchups. You'll have to mulligan more than say, Threshold, but it barely cuts into your winning if you make smart decisions.

I don't think so. Like Dragon Stompy, the deck is pretty inconsistent. The card draw helps, but you still see many more terrible hands than most other decks in the format. It's also false to say that it has no bad matchups. Just off the top of my head, Ichorid and decks packing Deed seem like pretty rough matchups.

[Kuma]

Ichorid not so much, decks with Deed a little more so.

With Force of Will, Chalice, EE, and Trinket Mage to find them in the main, and Crypt(s), Propaganda, and EE in the side (if not in the main), it's not that rough of a match.

Deed kind of blows, but it can be played around, and we also run Needle in the main with extras in the board. Back to Basics is helpful too, as most decks with Deed run few to no basics. Rock isn't a rough matchup. Landstill has its challenges, but isn't what I'd call a bad matchup.

The consistency issue is overrated. Dredge and storm are inconsistent, yet no one doubts their status. I've mulled to four and five and still won, because the individual cards are excellent, and the deck is very explosive.

Maybe, Maybe once every other tournament I'm forced to mull multiple times in one game and lose because of it. Red Tempo Thresh and Zoo are the only poor matchups that spring to mind.

[KillemallCFH]

I don't think so. Like Dragon Stompy, the deck is pretty inconsistent. The card draw helps, but you still see many more terrible hands than most other decks in the format. It's also false to say that it has no bad matchups. Just off the top of my head, Ichorid and decks packing Deed seem like pretty rough matchups.Actually, Ichorid is a pretty decent matchup. Mulldrifters remove bridges and Force and Chalice and stop them from going completely nuts. Meanwhile, you have a fast clock and can't be chumped by Zombie tokens. Tormod's Crypt (with Trinket Mage to find it, of course) out of the board makes it even better (or MD, if your meta warrants it). Deed, however, is a big problem. Pithing Needle (MD and SB) and B2B out of the board go a long way to help against it, but it is still one of FS's most feared cards in my experience.

However, I agree that FS's worst matchup is pretty much itself. Yes, it is a very powerful deck when it works, but you're guaranteed to drop at least a couple games per tournament due to its own inconsistency, which can often be the difference between Top8ing and not Top8ing.

EDIT: Oh ya, EE too against Ichorid.

And is Tempo Thresh really a bad matchup? I know Wasteland can be a problem, but don't they pretty much scoop it up to Chalice? (Zoo, too, actually)

Team America is a very bad matchup, I think. Wasteland plus Sinkhole can be pretty devastating, and all of their threats circumvent Chalice (and one blocks your dudes).

[b4r0n]

Actually, Ichorid is a pretty decent matchup. Mulldrifters remove bridges and Force and Chalice and stop them from going completely nuts. Meanwhile, you have a fast clock and can't be chumped by Zombie tokens. Tormod's Crypt (with Trinket Mage to find it, of course) out of the board makes it even better (or MD, if your meta warrants it).

I stand corrected.


The consistency issue is overrated. Dredge and storm are inconsistent, yet no one doubts their status. I've mulled to four and five and still won, because the individual cards are excellent, and the deck is very explosive.

In this format, you can trade consistency for power; however, in order for the benefits of power to outweigh the benefits of consistency, your deck better be pretty powerful. That's one of the (many) reasons why Dredge and Storm are both really good. Faerie Stompy is certainly a decent deck, but I don't think that its power outweighs its inconsistency.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'll defend Fairy Stompy. It's definitely a good deck. I don't know if I would put it in the top Tier, but it has a unique set of strengths (barring Deep Blue, which does much the same things but is still a work in progress and might not pull through in the end).

[Omega]

all this talking about Faerie Stompy makes me wanna try it...

anyone has a playset of city of traitor + sea drake lol?

Robert

[Kuma]

However, I agree that FS's worst matchup is pretty much itself. Yes, it is a very powerful deck when it works, but you're guaranteed to drop at least a couple games per tournament due to its own inconsistency, which can often be the difference between Top8ing and not Top8ing.

I'd say I drop an average of one game per four round tournament (including playoffs) to inconsistency issues. But Faerie Stompy more than makes up for that with its incredible matchups.


And is Tempo Thresh really a bad matchup? I know Wasteland can be a problem, but don't they pretty much scoop it up to Chalice? (Zoo, too, actually)

Resolving Chalice at one goes a long way. The problem is resolving Chalice at one. Zoo is badly hurt by Chalice at one, but if you don't drop one fast, you'll be too far gone. Ancient Tombs plus whatever they can dish out is usually a fatal combination.


Team America is a very bad matchup, I think. Wasteland plus Sinkhole can be pretty devastating, and all of their threats circumvent Chalice (and one blocks your dudes).

Sower of Temptation is nuts against Team America, and any deck running Tombstalker for that matter. I can't really speak to the matchup, since I've only played it once. Eva Green is about even, so I can see Team America being bad, but not terrible. Back to Basics seems like a nut punch.

[nitewolf9]

Sower of Temptation is nuts against Team America, and any deck running Tombstalker for that matter. I can't really speak to the matchup, since I've only played it once. Eva Green is about even, so I can see Team America being bad, but not terrible. Back to Basics seems like a nut punch.

The real ball buster in this matchup is snuff out. Back to basics is kinda bad, but all the stuff you can play for free, plus dazing lands back to your hand or sitting on lands to play threats that are bigger than theirs is probably good here.
SoLS is a big deal but it's slow and snuff out in response to an equip is very bad.

I've played against FS a few times with TA and I don't really feel behind in the matchup. Chalice can be back breaking though (although not quite as bad as it is for Threshold). In general, I think out of all the blue based aggro control varients TA is probably going to have the best shot to beat FS.

[Wargoos]

I would say the best Aggro Control decks are either a Sui Black varient (excluding Team America) or a Threshold Variant (but excluding Team America).

The problem with Team America is that it is incredibly easy to hate out, and probably won't do very well in a fully developed (read Grand Prix sized) meta. Nor will it do well in a meta that is entirely expecting its presence

->

As an aside, I don't expect Dreadstill to do well at the GP. I'm actually surprised it's done as well as it has. The deck is a two-for-one magnet. Dreadnought is trumped by E.E., Swords, Smother, Threads......fill in the blank and Factory is equally vulnerable to Pithing Needle, Wasteland, Back to Basics, Magus of the Moon, etc. I think Dreadstill is a niche deck that does well in a smaller, local setting, more akin to traditional Legacy tournaments. The GP shouldn't resemble that.

Can you see it?
It's always the same. People claim Decks that perform just too well to be bad and uncompetetive. It turns just boring at a point.

[Curby]

People don't play Quinn because it's a hard deck to pilot correctly. People give it a shot, fail with it and move on to the next deck or back to their old one. While I do think the deck is very strong, it takes up huge amounts of time to learn to play the deck competently.

I wonder if this is the problem with Death and Taxes. There's a lot of subtlety involved with cards that aren't often seen together. I know that I keep on making mistakes with it, but good pilots do well. It still has problems with combo though, no matter what you do...

[thefreakaccident]

Jack Elgin is the best agro-control deck in the format.

Welcome to legacy noobz!

[Mantis]

@IBA: I have played a ton of control decks (ITF, Landstill, Gifts Rock in ext., Truffle Shuffle, numerous Tron decks etc.), and never really had a difficult time piloting them. I mean sure those decks are among the harder decks to play but they do not compare to Quinn in my opinion. I found Quinn to be extremely difficult to play and a lot of strategies I normally use (Philosphy of Fire, Who is the beatdown?, Everything is a Time Walk etc.) were not so obvious for Quinn if you get what I am trying to say.

D&T is a vastly different deck, I find it no harder to pilot than my usual Draft or Sealed deck where I see a lot of cards that I don't use often, if ever, and have to look for interactions between those cards as well.

BTW: I am seriously losing track to what this topic is about, it seems like there are 3 discussions going at the same time..

[thefreakaccident]

@IBA: I have played a ton of control decks (ITF, Landstill, Gifts Rock in ext., Truffle Shuffle, numerous Tron decks etc.), and never really had a difficult time piloting them. I mean sure those decks are among the harder decks to play but they do not compare to Quinn in my opinion. I found Quinn to be extremely difficult to play and a lot of strategies I normally use (Philosphy of Fire, Who is the beatdown?, Everything is a Time Walk etc.) were not so obvious for Quinn if you get what I am trying to say.

D&T is a vastly different deck, I find it no harder to pilot than my usual Draft or Sealed deck where I see a lot of cards that I don't use often, if ever, and have to look for interactions between those cards as well.

BTW: I am seriously losing track to what this topic is about, it seems like there are 3 discussions going at the same time..

No no no, there is only one topic in this thread, which deck will break the format wide open:

Jack

or

Elgin?

... enough
-TOOL

[Kuma]

I wonder if this is the problem with Death and Taxes. There's a lot of subtlety involved with cards that aren't often seen together. I know that I keep on making mistakes with it, but good pilots do well. It still has problems with combo though, no matter what you do...

IMO, the problem with Death and Taxes is its bad storm combo matchup and its poor matchups against board control, that can only be improved by sacrificing your matchups against everything else.

D&T is a fantastic deck that is underrated by many, but I wouldn't call it the best aggro control deck in the format. It's got good matchups against contenders like Aggro Loam, Dreadstill, and possibly Team America (I haven't tested the match, but D&T tends to be great vs low threat count decks, and is largely immune to Team America's mana disruption). D&T has a solid matchup against Thresh, but D&T usually needs to overextend to do well, making it vulnerable to Deed, EE, Wrath, etc.

I usually do well when I run it at my local tournament, but there's no Landstill and only one or two storm players at most.

[Forbiddian]

People don't play Quinn because it's a hard deck to pilot correctly. People give it a shot, fail with it and move on to the next deck or back to their old one. While I do think the deck is very strong, it takes up huge amounts of time to learn to play the deck competently.

It's not very hard to play. Just boring.

Testing it is boring, playing it is boring, getting a partner to gauntlet against it is ridiculous. Actually investing in the deck so that you're stuck with it for multiple tournaments in a row?

Even if my win ratio went up 5%, I'm not yet so desperate to pump my tournament-peen that I'll stoop to playing Quinn. I'm not surprised that other people think in similar terms.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's not remotely aggro, and thus kind of a topic shift, but I don't think Quinn is especially difficult to play if you understand the basics of playing control and the limitations of the deck itself. Control itself plays differently than other archetypes by quite a bit, and it's especially difficult if you're thinking in the context of playing Landstill or ITF or some similar deck; you don't have counterspells, which leads to a different evaluation of threats.

I should probably write a guide to the thing before Chicago.

[Mantis]

It's not remotely aggro, and thus kind of a topic shift, but I don't think Quinn is especially difficult to play if you understand the basics of playing control and the limitations of the deck itself. Control itself plays differently than other archetypes by quite a bit, and it's especially difficult if you're thinking in the context of playing Landstill or ITF or some similar deck; you don't have counterspells, which leads to a different evaluation of threats.

I should probably write a guide to the thing before Chicago.
The thing is, if you don't play it correctly, it's very easy to get 2 or more for 1-ed. Krosan Grip on your Scepter, Pernicious Deed blowing up your board or getting your Enlightened Tutor target countered. That makes it unforgiving and thus hard to play. Sure, sometimes you 'just win' with Moat or Scepter/Chant but more often than not you will have to fight hard for everything you do. Also, you are presented with a ton of options; and it's not always easy to see which one is clearly the best as is with decks like Landstill. When do you play your spells, in which order and when to go for the throat and when to lay back on defense are things that are quite hard to determine for this deck. I'm not saying the deck is impossible to play, but I found it one of the harder decks I have played so far probably as hard as Gifts Rock was for Extended. That said, I have not tested it much but I noticed the times I played it I sometimes lost because I made one tiny mistake whereas if I would have played correctly I would have won. But perhaps it's just me.

Anyway, a guide would be appreciated and might cause me to pick the deck up again sometime.