[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

[lebarion]

Guys, I'd like to know your opinion about the lord configuration in this deck, the importance of Squee and disenchant effects.

- How many lords do you play? Which ones? Why?
I'm currently running 12 lord or similar effects (I count Gempalm Strider and Mirror Entity as lords here). I think it is a good number, but I'm thinking about going down to 10 to put Squee back in the maindeck and keep the disenchant effect (not sure it is needed, though).
I don't consider playing less than 4 Imperious Perfect and 4 Elvish Archdruid. Elvish Archdruid allows me to chain Messengers and hardcast Emrakul, which are a big part of the deck's plan. Imperious Perfect token-generation ability works both when you need to be aggressive and defensive.
Elvish Champion makes your guys unblockable in many matches, in other he just pumps them, and against merfolk I don't like them as unblockable Mutavaults are bad news.
Wilt-Leaf Liege is a big body on its own for a reasonable price. Downside is that he gives no other ability and costs 4.
Gempalm Strider is the worse of those, in my opinion. The pros is that he provides a surprise effect in combat and against Piroclasm effects, he dodges Humility, and he 's not bad as a 2/2 for 1G. But 2GG for cycling is a lot, you could be doing something better with the mana, specially if you have an active Survival (unless there's a Humility in play).

- Do you play any disenchant effect maindeck? How useful do you find it to be (before sideboarding)?
I never leave home without Viridian Zealot in my deck, but he's never been very useful. To the point that in my last game against Stax I played it turn 2 and won the game without using its ability. And I've lost against Jitte even with him maindeck. I'm starting to think that it is better to move him to the side, along with 3 Krosan Grip.

- Do you play Squee maindeck?
I've moved Squee to the side when Masked Admirers came to the maindeck, but their roles are completely different. Admirers are useful when comboing to cast Emrakul, but in other situations he's so-so. Squee guarantees you never run out of gas. The card-advantage he generates is insane, specially now that I'm playing 4 Fauna Shamans.

Oh, and one more thing. I'm considering again running Deranged Hermit. There were 2 or 3 situations in the last tournament when he could have saved my ass. If I decide for him, probably Packmaster is going to leave, what is sad...

What's your opinion on these points?
Thanks!

[Ricardolucente]

@lebarion: How works the combo Admirers X Emrakul?

[Koby]

Since this deck wants to abuse Survival of the Fittest along with Priest of Titania, you want to maintain your Elf count as high as possible for the untaps. Here's how I start off my chain:

Pre-req: 4 elves in play, 1 of which is Priest of Titania, 1 Forest, 1 Taiga, Survival of the Fittest; Anger in graveyard, Masked Admirer in hand
2. Tap Priest for GGGG.
3. Survival Masked Admirers (M.A) for Quirion Ranger (GGG)
4. Cast Quirion Ranger, and return MA to hand (0)
5. Untap Priest of Titania and add mana (GGGGG)
6. Repeat step 3 and get Priest of Titania (GGGG)
7. Cast Priest of Titania and return MA to hand, tap for mana (GGGGGG)
8. Repeat 6. (GGGGG)
9. Repeat step 7. (GG)
etc

Once you have all your Priests and Archdruids out, you get Wirewood Symbiote, untapping a Priest of Titania by bouncing a Priest of Titania. At this point you should have at least 15 mana in your mana pool, and easily be able to cast Emrakul.

[(nameless one)]

hey ruckus,

by any chance, what is your most prefered build of survival elves? does it actually work against the current meta or are you constantly changing your build?

[Koby]

I am working on a list similar to lebarion's that meets halfway between aggro and combo.

I am running NO/Pro/Terastodon maindeck, and I've had very good results with Terastodon against combo/control in the early turns.

8 Mana elves seem to be the key for non-combo Survival Elves, and I'm noticing that Archdruid is also more useful than Priest of Titania in such a build. I play 3 Priests and 4 Archdruids now. This deck is very metagame adjustable - and since mine runs tons of CBtop/Merfolk and Combo, I'm electing to make the deck more reliable against sweepers. Removing the combo helps in that regard since I can simply cast Emrakul to win if I ever get enough mana. (3 lands, 2-3 elves, active survival).

[Aadz0r]

@rukcus: Do you still run Sylvan Messenger? I have found that I only get 1-2 elfs with him when i'm running the NOPRO package, and sometimes even zero. Therefore I have decided to replace him with Bloodbraid Elf. Until now it seems to be a solid card in the deck. Red mana is not a problem since I run enough fetchland, and this way, you get at least one elf extra in play instead of a questionable amount of elves in your hand. Against control decks he is IMO better too, since his ability will trigger even if he gets countered, and he can be a dangerous creature for slow decks since he hits for at least 3 (usually more) the turn he comes into play.

Also, I have decided to drop the Swords to Plowshares in the deck. I still run white for Mirror Entity and for sideboard Absolute Law. Problem with StP is that you only need him the first few turns, and these are the turns where you will be outtapping most of the time, and if you do keep a white land untapped, most opponents will be able to play around a possible StP. Instead I have added 4x Elvish Spirit Guide. His early game acceleration is just so good, and it's great to see the look on the face of your opponent when he tries to Daze and it gets countered... :D

Thirdly, I am once again running Squee. There were too many times where I needed a creature to win the game to find myself drawing lands and Survivals... Also I have added 1x Masked Admirers to the MB. I don't really like the card, but he helps getting creatures in my hand when I have a SotF out, and the chance to have another combo possibility by adding just one card is just too good to resist.

[TheBirdMan]

Whats up guys, after a long time away I decided to post the list i currently play. I ran this with a different sb at Columbus and went 3-3. I went 3-0 to start against Thopter foundry, Glimpse elves and goblins. I proceeded to lose to belcher, 75 cards that say i hate aggro (deed e plague, ee ,impossible matchup.dec) and show and tell. Essentially the only matchup that is poor with this deck is combo and super fast dredge plays. My new sideboard hopefully address's this problem. As one of the early innovators of this deck I believe this to be the most optimal list, you could change sideboard for your meta but the mainboard is solid and a blast to play.

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order

1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Progenitus

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Priest of Titania
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Elvish Champion

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
9 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Emrukal, Aeons Torn--> Mainly to recur macabre against grave decks.

[Aadz0r]

@thebirdman: I don't really agree on your list.You run 8 survival cards, but you don't run a survival toolbox. I'm guessing you want to be able to change your llanowar elves into lords. With this plan however, I would personally prefer to only run 4x Survival of the Fittest and change your Fauna Shamans into Sylvan Messengers. This way your survival engine can also chain Messengers and get a huge amount of elves into play at one time and swing for the win.
Also, why don't you run Wirewood Symbiote's? They can speed you up, they serve for protection, and if you do decide to run Sylvan messengers they have great synergy.

[TheBirdMan]

The 8 survival are huge because they get anger in the yard which is what makes the deck explosive. Messenger was in the original deck. He is cool in theory but is only able to be chained with symbiote when there is no disruption where you should win anyway, this goes the same for mirror entity. The other problem with symbiote is that he isn't an elf and gets no bonuses. You are going to win most games with natural order by baiting lords for counters. Also, messenger usually only nets me 2 creatures one being a llanowar where the 8 survival get me what I needed and recurs macabre. Finally this isn't a survival deck, just an elf deck that runs survival. any toolbox used wont be elves and will just gum up a tight list.

[Aadz0r]

Seems fine, but then, doesn't it take too long to get Anger in your grave with the Shaman. I mean, first you play him, next turn you survival for Anger and the turn after you can finally get him into your grave. This gives your opponent 2 turns to get rid of her. However, if this works for you, then don't mind me;)

New card from SOM:
Ezuri, Renegade Leader 1GG

Legendary Creature - Elf Warrior Rare
{G}: Regenerate another target Elf.

2{G}{G}{G}: Elf creatures you control get +3/+3 and gain trample until end of turn.

Illus. Karl Kopinski 2/2

What do you guys think about adding this one to the deck... Seems a good card against aggro decks or decks packing mass removal. Perhaps as a 2-off?

[TheBirdMan]

That card looks really cool I definitely want to try him.

[lebarion]

@TheBirdMan: Good to see you back. Even though I started playing this deck recently, I follwed the thread from the beggining.
About your list, I like it as it is very straight. However, since I started playing Masked Admirers + Emrakul, I've found it to be great. But probably this combo doesn't belong to a list with both Survival and Natural Order.



New card from SOM:
Ezuri, Renegade Leader 1GG

Legendary Creature - Elf Warrior Rare
{G}: Regenerate another target Elf.

2{G}{G}{G}: Elf creatures you control get +3/+3 and gain trample until end of turn.

Illus. Karl Kopinski 2/2

What do you guys think about adding this one to the deck... Seems a good card against aggro decks or decks packing mass removal. Perhaps as a 2-off?

This is great, I'm going to test as a 1-of for sure. Shame its legendary :).

[TheBirdMan]

Thanks, this new guy looks like a sweet edh general

[Aadz0r]

What about this new one from SOM?
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/1rntjhz982_en.jpg

I would rather run this one instead of the new Elf. It's a lot harder to destroy an enchantment than it is to kill a 2/2 body. The extra regeneration cost shouldn't be a problem, since cards as Perish won't let you regenerate, and versus a Pyroclasm or Firespout, saving your lords should be enough. + it doesn't have the drawback that Eldrazi Monument has. What do you think?

[lebarion]

What about this new one from SOM?
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/1rntjhz982_en.jpg

I would rather run this one instead of the new Elf. It's a lot harder to destroy an enchantment than it is to kill a 2/2 body. The extra regeneration cost shouldn't be a problem, since cards as Perish won't let you regenerate, and versus a Pyroclasm or Firespout, saving your lords should be enough. + it doesn't have the drawback that Eldrazi Monument has. What do you think?

I can't see the image because of a firewall, but I suppose you are talking about Asceticism, right?
Well, its ability is great, but the cost is too high. I think If you're able to land it against Zoo, you should be winning already, or its effect will do nothing and they're going to burn your face/beat you to death.

I'm testing some different cards in Elvish Champion's slot. I was pretty unsatisfied with it, but couldn't find something really better.
For you that are still with the Champion, how do you like it?
I'm considering Gilt-leaf Ambush in its slot, what do you think about it?
For those who tested Bloodbraid Elf, what's the results?

[Aadz0r]

@ Lebarion: Gilt-Leaf Ambush seems like a good staller, but I don't think you should run it 1x. Running one Elvish Champion has paid me off several times however. Most of the decks in the format run Tarmogoyf, and a Champion could be really important in those match-ups. However, instant speed removal is a real bitch with him, and you could be killing your entire field. Still, I'll keep running him as one-of.

Bloodbraid Elf is doing great in testing. If you have a deck which doesn't run quite as many elves, i definately recommend playing him over Sylvan Messenger. Everything you could find with him is at the least fine. The only thing you could get which isn't good, would be a second SotF, but these are 3 outs, and usually when you do have a SotF in play you can already combo off, and you wouldn't need BBE.

Also, new SOM card:

Genesis Wave XGGG

Sorcery
Reveal the top X cards of your library. You may put any number of permanent cards with converted mana cost X or less from among them onto the battlefield. Then put all cards revealed this way that weren't put onto the battlefield into your graveyard.


I figured this card should be discussed for this deck. I personally think he should't go in since it seems like an overkill. Most of the time when you have enough mana to use him, you should already be comboing for the win and whenever you are screwed this card won't help you. What are your thoughts on it?

[Leftconsin]

I put Genesis Wave into the slot I had Joraga Warcaller in. This is because Warcaller is already my 'I can spend a lot of mana, but don't have Survival or Mirror Entity right now' slot. Goldfishing I find that turn 4 I cast it for enough to win that turn, but most of those times I could have won in another way. The deck is very good at making a lot of mana and doing something stupid with it. That is pretty much the biggest downside to Genesis Wave, we already have a lot of other things to do with our stupid amount of mana.

A situation where this card would shine is late, your opponent has been sending your lords farming and you have a bunch of 1/1 mana dorks. You pump 10+ mana into X and Genesis Wave feels more like a big Mind's Desire. But then that problem shows up of Warcaller, Survival, and Mirror Entity all also get you out of that situation. I want it to be great in the deck, but it feels more like winmore.

[lebarion]

I haven't tested Genesis Wave yet, but my predictions matches with Leftconsin test results.
This card is dead early game, and it is not even an elf. I'd like to have something that is not dead in the early game and is good mid and late game.

[Koby]

Any results with Ezuri? Seems like he's a house with Nettle Sents.

[Leftconsin]

I ran Genesis Wave as a two-of yesterday. I had the means and opportunity to cast it twice. The first time was when my opponent had just resolved a turn 2 Show and Tell. I untapped for turn 3 and cast it X=7 and it flipped me into Mirror Entity+Symbiote= Win now.

Second time was against Merfolk, but because of Cursecatcher I could only do X=2, so I scooped instead of showing my opponent the card.

In the end, 3-1 while mostly revolving around Survival to get me the win. Perfect won me one game by herself, and Ranger+Priest->Emrakul got me another. In the past 12 rounds I've played with the deck my only losses were two three-game matches where my opponents won games two and three after boarding in 4x Perish and 4x E.Plague. Thats always encouraging.

I'll run it again next week as well.

[TheBirdMan]

I ran this at Vestal this weekend going 5-2, pretty much the same list as before but with Ezuri.
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order

1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Progenitus
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader

4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Priest of Titania
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Elvish Champion

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
9 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Emrukal, Aeons Torn

Every round I played went 2-1 except for a 2-0 loss to zoo.
I Beat:
round 1 Faeries Basically out swarmed and K gripped their bitterblossom, but lost game 2 due to a slower start and his double bitterblossom.

round 2 Goblins: Out swarmed him game one, pyrokenisis happened game 2. Game 3 he didnt hit 3rd/black land for perish :-)

round 3 Merfolk: Its U merfolk should be auto win. Ezuri would have won me game 2 with blocking 5 dudes and either regen or pumping to kill but he had the 4/4 flying lord and I was at 4.

round 5/7 Vengevine Survival: Macabre and K grips won these. Progen won both game ones I believe. Lost the first game 2 due to a boarded in progen and couldn't keep a dude on board to respond with my own but it seemed he had the counter anyways. Side note: I casted an angry Emrakul game 2 the second time I played this haha.


I lost to:
round 4 Ad Nauseam: got to game 3 had to mull to 5 which was priest, archdruid, llanowar, 2 forests had to keep. Its storm, whatever.

round 6 Zoo: kept a slow hand game one and he went turn one lavamancer on the play. Game 2: I got stuck on few lands and mana guys got burned and drew all 3 k grips i boarded in by turn 3 :-(.

Overall the Board was perfect definitely the board I will run from now on. The only change I am making to the mb is to cut the 3rd champion for the 8th llanowar. With Ezuri I broke the 11 lord rule and I kept a lot of one landers where a llanowar would have been huge plus turn 1 llanowar is obviously the best scenario. Champion is great but he doesn't do anything but forestwalk and can be tutored with the 8 survivals.

Fauna worked well and did what I wanted it to. It converted a llanowar and zealot into 2 champions andl was a 2/2 for 2.

Ezuri was sweet, like i said i could have stopped his assault and double overran the game 2 of merfolk if he didnt play the flying lord guy, oh well. I see potential for him to get you out of situations you couldnt before with this tactic of just dropping some chump blockers then countering with a massive strike. Overall it was a fun event. I got 16th and won 4 zen fetches.

[lebarion]

I've piloted Elf Survival 2 weeks ago to a disappointing 3-3. I've won against The Rock, Berserker Stompy and Burn, and lost to Belcher, Merfolk and Countertop. I think I was unlucky against merfolk (mulligan to 4 due to no-landers + bad draws) and countertop (turns 4 and 5 Progenitus).

I'm not so confident about the merfolk matchup, I think I'm 4-2 against them in tournaments. Coralhelm Commander is a bitch, and their lords curve better than ours - not to say, they don't need to tap their creatures to cast others, so they can attack earlier than us.

[Leftconsin]

Round 1 - Saito Merfolk
Game 1 he mulled to 4, but his 4 was stellar. I kept a 1 land 7. His Standstill drew him into multiple lords and he played 2x Reejery + 1 Sovereign turn 4. I chained elves via Survival and hard cast Emrakul on my turn 5.

Game 2 we both deployed our hands quickly. I was a turn away from going bonkers again, when he Perished and swung for win. Only game I lost today.

Game 3 he Perished on turn 3 killing a Symbiote (which saved my Priest) and a Ranger. I spent my next three turns rebuilding and threatening ending in a turn 7 Emrakul. He didn't find another Perish.

Round 2 - GBw Survival
Game 1 I kept a very awkward hand with 3 lands and no 1 or 2 drops on the play. He Therapied me for Natural Order, which I have not played in many months. I cast Llanny turn 2, Mirror Entity and Fynd turn 3. He wasted my Taiga. Turn 4 Perfect got Pathed. Turn 5 I topdeck Cradle activate Mirror Entity for 7 and swing 28.

Game 2 We both keep hands with more protection than gas. I had lands, mana elves, and a StP that I brought in to fight possible Iona. We trade beats with little men until I topdeck a Genesis Wave. Due to Ranger and Symbiote untapping Priest I cast it X=12. The wave gave me Anger, which I threw in the yard, Survival, and enough mana to cast Emrakul.

Round 3 - Elf Combo
I had been playing with him before the tournament and won all the test games. Basically, whoever does the most with Priest of Titania wins, and my deck is set up to do just that. Because I also got paired down he generously scooped.

Cool Tech - Genesis Wave gives you the choice of where the permanents go. Reveal Squee or Anger and you can choose to have them go to the yard instead of the battlefield.
What sucked - Only three rounds.
Another week of me boarding in 3 Lifeforce just to try and test it against decks boarding in Perish, and another week of me not drawing it.

I'm still afraid of the Merfolk matchup. Sometimes it is "Hey, I drew Plague Wind for 3! Swing for win!" Although many times only Perishing once is not enough to secure a win, 'Folk have much better card draw than we do and don't seem to have all that much trouble finding a second.

[(nameless one)]

What does your list look like Leftconsin?

[Leftconsin]

4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Imperious Perfect
1 Elvish Champion
3 Mirror Entity
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Genesis Wave
3 Sylvan Messenger
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Emrakul
1 Wood Elves
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Magus of the Moon

1 Gaea's Cradle
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
5 Forest

Sideboard
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Krosan Grip
3 Lifeforce
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wren's Run Packmaster

Magus moves from board to main sometimes. Sometimes I really like to steal game with him, but that's really all the deck is about, stealing games. Packmaster is my solution to Zoo and I've liked it.

[TheBirdMan]

If you are really worried about perish I recommend running Caller of the claw. Im not really sure what leyline will do for you against these decks as perish just wrecks your uncountered dudes. Also faerie macabre is much better in this deck than crypt especially since you run emrakul mb to recur them with survival.

[Shawon]

He doesn't run Leyline of Lifeforce. He runs Lifeforce. But you're right, Caller of the Claw is a better idea since you can Survival it. Plus, it's not dead against Firespout/Wrath of Good either, unlike Lifeforce.

Leftcousin, use card tags next time you post a list.

[TheBirdMan]

Oic :-p. Thats interesting but it seems narrow as a board slot still Caller helps against firespout and such too.

[Leftconsin]

No one has mentioned that the maindeck I gave was 59 cards. I'm actually running 17 lands instead of 16. My previous post will be amended.

As I said, I'm trying to test Lifeforce because where I am, Perish is about fifty times more common than Firespout. Black splashes for control are common. It is staying in until I actually get a chance to play and test it.
Crypt was simply what I had available at the time, and will be cut. There are no yard based decks in my meta that are faster than me right now. I guess I'll replace it with 1 Caller 1 Faerie.

One thing I'd like to talk about is speed of the two splintered versions. I've been noticing that pretty much everyone but me has dropped white and stuck with Natural Order while I have kept white and cut Natural Order. Right now I'm expecting, unencumbered, to kill on turn 3 or 4. Also, I've always kinda felt that Progenitus is both too slow, and does not offer enough inevitability. My list has been geared to be much more of a combo deck than an aggro deck, and that's how I've gone about playing the deck. Which is why I'm valuing 1/1 mana elves over 2/2 bears so I'd rather try to counter Perish or EPlague with 4 mana instead of searching up Caller for non-elf replacements. If I untap with Survival and elves I am very likely to win that turn through mana loops into Emrakul.

[arebennian]

To those running Natural Order,

For decks which are splashing black for Perish, but don't run Exile effects (I'm looking at Merfolk, Goblins etc) would Symbiotic Wurm be worth a sideboard slot? Or the fact that Merfolk can fly over the top of it and goblins chump it all day make it purely a defensive (and probably inadequate) play and as such useless?

[Nessaja]

To those running Natural Order,

For decks which are splashing black for Perish, but don't run Exile effects (I'm looking at Merfolk, Goblins etc) would Symbiotic Wurm be worth a sideboard slot? Or the fact that Merfolk can fly over the top of it and goblins chump it all day make it purely a defensive (and probably inadequate) play and as such useless?
If you're devoting a SB spot on that use Myojin of Life's Web, which can actually do some nice EOT things, as long as it doesn't get stifled.

[arebennian]

If you're devoting a SB spot on that use Myojin of Life's Web, which can actually do some nice EOT things, as long as it doesn't get stifled.

And as long as you play it from your hand.
I don't see the EOT trick if you NO it into play.

[Nessaja]

Ugh, fair enough. I was looking for the best possible Indestructible green creature, as that would be much better then Symbiotic Wurm. Thornling seems like the best one but thats pretty lackluster. NO for Dauntless Escort if you're really fearing a Perish. The Wurm isn't a good card.

[TheBirdMan]

if you really want to stop perish you can try running wastelands, You can hit their black source and slow them down since they are probably only running 4 seas or 4 badlands

[Leftconsin]

I've considered running Wastelands, but I have always found it difficult to find the room for them. For the most part I feel I need to increase the land count to 19+ to accommodate them. I think I tested it out a year ago and became unhappy with the increased likelihood of awkward mulligans. I do, however want to express this untested one:

In the board run 1 Trop and 4 of some cheap counter, either Daze or Spell Pierce. With fetches you have ~8 cards to be or find Trop, a rather amazing surprise factor, and a small buffer of protection. Even in situations where you have to lead with the Trop you have the 'Daze bluff factor' on your side. Your opponent will now play as if, of all things, Elves holding Daze. Works the same as psyching people out to name Iona on white when they know or think you sleeved up StP.

[Koby]

All things considered, this might actually be a good strategy for combating Combo - almost better than Thorn of Amethyst too.

I'm updating my board to test it out:

4 Spell Pierce
0-1 Tropical Island (might be maindeck)
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock teeg
1 Nullmage Shepherd

[Tivon]

Birdman and I ran the same combo hate package of 4x Chalice of the Void and 4x Mindbreak trap and it worked really well. I also ran -1 K grip from birdmans board and ran a magus in the side and loved it. It really does slow combo down enough though to get it for lethal

[lebarion]

Birdman and I ran the same combo hate package of 4x Chalice of the Void and 4x Mindbreak trap and it worked really well. I also ran -1 K grip from birdmans board and ran a magus in the side and loved it. It really does slow combo down enough though to get it for lethal

Running a Tropical Island for Spell Pierce might be a good idea. However, in the last 6 or 7 tournaments I've taken this deck, I've faced combo only once, so I'm still fine giving up this match.
Is there any other match (besides combo) where you think Spell Pierce would be good?

As this small splash is being considered, another idea passed thorugh my head: what about Loyal Retainers and Iona, Shield of Emeria in the sideboard?

[Koby]

It's also good vs Counterbalance, Stax, an occasional Burn deck, and most importantly, Firespout/Perish.

The fact that with fetches, getting Tropical Island is easy, and playing Spell Pierce doesn't require holding back a large amount of mana.

[Leftconsin]

I have faced combo about as infrequently as well. Primarily I was thinking Pierce/Daze as a counter for Firespout and Perish. Those two cards are what I lose games to the most. Mindbreak Trap is better against combo, but useless against everything else (no exaggeration).

@Loyal Retainer- At least for my list I'm willing to believe it isn't better than Mirror Entity. If you have the mana to get Retainer and Iona, then you have the mana to get Entity and Symbiote. One is a 3 turn clock, one wins this turn. The reason it is better in other Survival builds is that they don't have the third piece, the creature that taps for 4+ mana. So, good if you use your other slots for Force of Will or Vengevine, suboptimal if you run 8 dudes that tap for 4+.

[lebarion]

Since my last (bad) results against Merfolk and Goblins, I've dropped the Fauna Shamans in favor of Wren's Run Vanquisher. I've found the Shaman to be too slow in these matches, and her body isn't impressive at all. Dropping Fauna Shamans lead my sideboard to big changes, too, as I couldn't rely on some 1-ofs I had anymore.
I'm also dropping "cute" things such as Pendelhaven, Gaea's Cradle, Deranged Hermit and Wren's Run Packmaster in favor of the straight aggro plan. I've stick with Emrakul, however, as dropping a 15/15 flier and gaining an extra turn is too "cute" to ignore ;). The Masked Admirers is still there to make it easier to cast Emrakul, but I'm considering Ezuri or Joraga in its place.

This is the list I'm currently testing:

Gr Survival Elves
-- 18 Lands
6 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga

-- 7 Survival Package
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

-- 35 Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Priest of Titania
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Masked Admirers

-- 15 Sideboard
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Null Rod
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Magus of the Moon

Comments and criticism are welcome!

[psly4mne]

lebarion: I see you're not running maindeck Viridian Zealot or Wirewood Symbiote. I wouldn't feel comfortable without some maindeck artifact/enchantment kill. How has that been working? I like running 2 Symbiotes, and I'm considering adding more. They protect all your elves from removal, make potentially lots of extra mana, and once in a while can help you combo into Emrakul.

I agree with you about Fauna Shamans being slow, and I think it's reasonable to drop them if you see a lot of aggro. You're running the full 4 Elvish Champions - I guess that's a result of focusing more on having big elves as plan A. Seems interesting.

I've been thinking about the right mix of 1-drops to run. I'm currently at 8 Llanowar Elves, 2 Quirion Ranger, 2 Wirewood Symbiote. I'm almost always happy to see 2 Llanowars in my opening hand, so I think 8 is about the right number (Arbor Elf, which I only learned of recently, means you could effectively have 12). I usually don't want to see more than 1 Quirion. I don't mind seeing multiple Symbiotes, and having 2 has been a lifesaver several times. But they're not elves, so I'd be wary of playing more.

My current list, for reference:
-- Lands
4 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath

-- Mana Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid

-- Other Elves
4 Imperious Perfect
1 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Wren's Run Packmaster

-- Survival
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Survival of the Fittest

-- Survival Targets
1 Masked Admirers
1 Viridian Zealot
2 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Anger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

I'm considering dropping the Packmaster, as I've rarely had occasion to search for it over Archdruid or Emrakul. The Viridian Zealot is often weak, but I wouldn't want to go without at least that much maindeck protection.

[lebarion]

I wouldn't run more than one Wirewood Symbiote. I find it wonderful when I have Survival, but awful in the starting seven. Also, many times returning an elf to your hand is almost as bad as having it killed, as the opponent is slowing you down a lot.
Viridian Zealot used to give me confidence, too, but I lost many times to a Jitte with Zealot in hand, just because I was missing a fourth forest. I also lost to enchantress a few times regardless of having him, and won against stax even without using its ability. After this experience, I concluded it is sideboard material at best.
Both are good stuff, however. I only have no place for them in my list.

[(nameless one)]

So....

Would this deck still work with Fauna Shaman/Quirion Ranger pair? Both are elves.

I've always wanted to build a competitive Elf deck since I have them but I am on limited budget (meaning that no Survival or Natural Order for me yet).

Is this deck officially dead or can the mentioned pair above revive this deck?

[DragoFireheart]

I bet the Fauna Shaman and Qurion Ranger can work. They are also elves so there must be some way to abuse them.

[lebarion]

I bet the Fauna Shaman and Qurion Ranger can work. They are also elves so there must be some way to abuse them.

I don't think this deck is unplayable without Survival. The problem is that there were lots of hard matches with Survival, and now everything gets just harder.
All in all, I think our dream of consolidating Survival Elves as as a tier 1.5 deck is over.

That said, I still like to try new things, so I've built this list which I haven't tested extensively yet, but I like on paper:

Gb "Survival" Elves
Deck List:
-- 18 Lands
6 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

-- 38 Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Elves of Deep Shadow
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Priest of Titania
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Champion
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Sylvan Messenger

-- 4 Combo Package
1 Krovikan Horror
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Triskelion


-- 15 Sideboard
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Nullmage Shepherd
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Masticore
4 Thorn of Ametyst

With 3 Shaman activations you win the game, backed up by a beatdown plan. Yes, I know It takes a lot of turns, but still I think it is worth testing.
Maybe Squee is better than Krovikan Horror, but the idea of casting Horror to kill some small dudes like Grim Lavamancer makes him worth trying. Even the "combo" guys are easily castable if needed, and both artifacts can kill themselves if you draw them but have no Fauna Shaman in play. Also, Triskelion can be used as removal, too.
What do you guys think?

[Alexeezay]

good idea lebarion, I'll test it with NoPro Package

[Justin]

Here's my list. Wirewood Symbiote will help a lot, too. You can get 2-3 uses out of your Fauna Shaman per turn if you need to. I like the idea of having a toolbox including some big beaters. Obviously, if you can ramp up to 15 mana it is gg, but this elf deck is not as fragile as combo elves and can win by just beating down with lords and such.

// Lands
7 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills


// Creatures
4 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Imperious Perfect
1 Anger
1 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Elvish Archdruid
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap

[Koby]

Ulamog is overkill. The difference between 11 for him and 15 for Emrakul is marginal and the effect he provides is hardly powerful enough. Terastadon and Woodfall Primus are both better for destroy efffects.

Perhaps change him for Masked Admirers? It gives you a sort of Squee effect while still synergizing with Recruiter and Lords.

Also, the Elf Combo thread came up with Living Wish as an extra tool. It also gives you access to Cradle without gumming up the opening hands. It also gives you access to utility creatures that are otherwise weak in the MD like Zealot or Nullmage Sheperd. Any considerations?

[Justin]

I like Ulamog as a one-of. It destroys target permanent when you cast it. That means that it can hit Humility. It can also destroy other cards that stop the deck cold, such as Moat, Solitary Confinement, or Ensnaring Bridge. Sometimes you can generate 11 mana, but not quite 15, in which case Ulamog is the one to get. If you test with Ulamog enough, you will find that there are times when you need to tutor for him.

[Koby]

For problematic permanents, I like Krosan Grip better. Seeing as CBtop will be returning much to everyone's dismay, Grip are necessarily coming back to being THE sb hate card. Against Humility, yes Ulamog is good - but how do you intend on casting him when your elves don't tap for mana?

Everything else is handled by Zealot or Nullmage.

[The Big R]

Green Sun Zenith is a card so I jammed it into my old survival elves list. While it isn't survival, it is still pretty swell. I sleeved up the following list at the SCG in indy:

Creatures: 39
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
2 Mirror Entity
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells: 4
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands: 17
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
4 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard: 15
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Absolute Law
2 Krosan Grip
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Elvish Champion
1 Gaddock Teeg

I wasn't intending on writing and report and thus didn't record my sideboarding. I don't remember what I sided out most of the time but I'll list list it when I do. I very much regret taking out unyaro bees last minute for the elvish champion

Round 1 (Team America) : I lose the die roll. I keep my opening 7 but it is quickly destroyed by double thoughtseize, double snuff out and double force and a waste on my cradle. A single Tombstalker finishes the job

-1 Emrakul
-1 Something
+1 Gaddock Teeg (Not sure about this but it stops snuff out and force of will.)
+1 Elvish Champion
Game 2: The game was pretty much the but with less disruption and more goyf (3).

Round 2 (Green and Taxes): My opponent was clearly tilted and was kind of being a dick. This displeases me. He has no disruption other than swords and a jitte and I have the nut hand. Instead of killing him turn 3 i wait to emrakul him. This pleases me. I was probably wrong in doing this but come on, no one likes having emrakul hard cast on them and he wasn't very happy about it.

Game 2: Killed him with Bajillion / Bajaillions

Round 3 (Affinity) Turn 3 Emrakul took the first game.

+1 Qasali
+2 Krosan Grip

Game 2: He disfigures a fauna shaman and plays an Engineered plague which kills 3 guys but i had a sylvan messenger and a wirewood and I just swarmed him.

Round 4 (UW Landstill): He plays his one of humilty and I just bash with 1/1s for a while then he casts his one of moat with lethal facing him on the other side of the board.

Game 2: Peacekeeper

Round 5 ( BUG Landstill): My opponent gets a smoking penalty and loses game 1.

Game 2: I mull to 4 on the draw and surprisingly don't get there.

Game 3: He keeps a one lander with 2 explosives but i only play 2 CC1 guys and he can't contain me well enough to win.

Round 6 (Glimpse Affinity): I draw my one of ezrui and overrun him on turn 4.

I side roughly the same as in round 3.

Game 2: i keep a hand with qasali and grip but can't kill him fast enough for it to matter. I don't see glimpse until this game.

Game 3: He trys to go off facing lethal next turn but falls one black mana short of getting there with ravager and disciples. I Have never been this scared playing against affinity.

Round 7 (Hive Mind): Game one he plays show and tell turn 2. I am looking at the emrakul in my hand and grin. "Resolves" I say smugly. He flips a Hive Mind and I quickly Realize I'm not winning this game.

I don't have any boards for this but I try anyway.

+1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Sylvan messenger

Game 2: I get it up so that if i rip a lord on turn 4 i swing for lethal but he plays a turn 3 show and tell after 3 cantrips and kills me. I drop.

I am mostly happy with the list but i have a few changes. I've taken elvish champion out of the board and moved qasali to the main. I added Duplicant and Unyaro bees in their place. As far as the main is concerned, I haven't figured out any numbers yet, but I have been unimpressed with imperious perfect as of late and find that ezrui is too good to only be a one of. Also I'm trying another cradle in the main for more explosive starts and emrakuls without mirror entity.

[Mark Sun]

I've taken elvish champion out of the board and moved qasali to the main. I added Duplicant and Unyaro bees in their place.

Don't leave home without your Unyaro Bees. Kisses.

I think it's safe to take Elvish Champion out now, with the Survival Mirror completely gone.

[The Big R]

Regarding elvish champion, it seems that in the matchups in which he excelled, the game was generally won or lost before he hits the board. The maindeck qasali alleviates the need for him as an additional lord for E. Plague. My current problem is finding the correct split between mirror entity, Ezuri and Joraga Warcaller as they all provide a similar function in that they generally just kill you. Mirror Entity facilitates the infinite combo, helps with swarms of dudes or sweepers, and joraga is just solid at any point in the curve and I have cast him at one many times. That probably didn't need to be said but I said it anyway. I'm currently enjoying the two cradles in the main. You sometimes draw multiples but when you do it isn't a problem because you are generally ahead anyway. Any criticism or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[(nameless one)]

So how effective is Fauna Shaman/Green Sun's Zenith in replacing the Survival engine? Does it 'play the same' or is it a whole new approach?

[lebarion]

So how effective is Fauna Shaman/Green Sun's Zenith in replacing the Survival engine? Does it 'play the same' or is it a whole new approach?

IMHO, It definitively doesn't play the same.
I think Green's Sun Zenith may be a big reinforcement for Elves, but I still couldn't find the right shell. Maybe Elven Advantage (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19802-[Deck]-Elven-Advantage) is the way to go, as it seems to mix a strong aggro plan with the possibility of comboing off.

[The Big R]

I'm still not sure I can get behind the elven advantage game plan. It just seems to have many more awkward draws and bad top decks. Maybe I'm just doing something wrong. Also I'm very much a fan of the light toolbox.