Counterbalance

[Finn]

Well, here it is. I had hoped, though not really expected Counterbalance to get banned. It seems to me that this card does a lot of things to Legacy that I don't like. It dominates games in which it resolves. It causes me serious difficulty from a design perspective. And it is just one more feather in the cap of ever-more-dominating blue. In particular, I find that the cards that can deal with it (with the exception of Grip), are not even that good at dealing with it.

Can I get the opinion of folks who either play with or against this card to chime in on (a) if you get the same impression or see things entirely different and (b) what are some effective means, short of playing Chalice decks to keep this card from invalidating your entire deck.

[Aggro_zombies]

*snip*
Warning for General Asshattery. Happy Holidays.
-TOOL


Counterbalance isn't dominant. Krosan Grip deals with it handily, as do Force, Daze, not having Top, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives for :w::w::u::u: or any other combination of two colors, not building your deck with all your cards in the 1-2 cc slot, your own Counterbalances, etc.

[quicksilver]

If it wern't for Krosan grip counter balance would probably get banned, or perhaps top.

[heroicraptor]

The problem is that it provides infinite free counters. No input needed. If it had some sort of cost, (even just a U activation, or "Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may pay U. If you do, you may reveal the top card of your library. If it has the same CMC, counter that spell." so it can still hit Grip) then I think it would be less dominating.

[Finn]

Counterbalance isn't dominant. Krosan Grip deals with it handily, as do Force, Daze, not having Top, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives for :w::w::u::u: or any other combination of two colors, not building your deck with all your cards in the 1-2 cc slot, your own Counterbalances, etc.

The first half of your post was pretty childish. While I have never done anything to you to deserve that behavior, I expect that crap. But the second half is just retarded. EE for 4+2 to activate is the only thing not in green that I have found. But paying 6 to kill Counterbalance is pretty crappy. Not playing cards that cost 1 or 2 and using your own Counterbalance - useful insight. Thanks, champ.

There have been cards I the past that I felt were really hard to design around, but things eventually change. This just seems different since you can't even play spells. We need a cycling card that kills enchantments or something.

[Aggro_zombies]

The first half of your post was pretty childish. While I have never done anything to you to deserve that behavior, I expect that crap. But the second half is just retarded. EE for 4+2 to activate is the only thing not in green that I have found. But paying 6 to kill Counterbalance is pretty crappy. Not playing cards that cost 1 or 2 and using your own Counterbalance - useful insight. Thanks, champ.

There have been cards I the past that I felt were really hard to design around, but things eventually change. This just seems different since you can't even play spells. We need a cycling card that kills enchantments or something.
You're welcome.

Also, have you looked at the DTB forum? The majority of those decks run Engineered Explosives, Deed, Vial, Chalice, discard, or Disenchant effects, in addition to Counterbalances of their own. Also, if Counterbalance hoses your deck so completely that you can't play around it, ur doin it rong. There is no way your opponent should get turn one Top, turn two Counterbalance every game unless they run twenty of each or they cheat. What are you doing before then? If your deck scoops to a single card and the rest of the format doesn't, I'd be inclined to blame your deck before I began whining about how hard it is to have to think while playing a game of Magic.

While you're at it, why not ban Tarmogoyf? A turn two 3/4 for two mana, only one of which is colored, is pretty warping. After all, every deck in the format has to play Goyf or play to answer Goyf. I think that's pretty good grounds for banning. Ditto dual lands. If you're not playing them, chances are you're playing some janky mono-colored deck, which is probably inferior to your deck plus a splash. Dual lands are therefore bad for the health of the format.

[frogboy]

There is no way your opponent should get turn one Top, turn two Counterbalance every game unless they run twenty of each or they cheat. What are you doing before then?

This is a little unfair because of cards like Swords to Plowshares.

[Willoe]

While you're at it, why not ban Tarmogoyf? A turn two 3/4 for two mana, only one of which is colored, is pretty warping. After all, every deck in the format has to play Goyf or play to answer Goyf. I think that's pretty good grounds for banning. Ditto dual lands. If you're not playing them, chances are you're playing some janky mono-colored deck, which is probably inferior to your deck plus a splash. Dual lands are therefore bad for the health of the format.

Even though I'm neutral most of the time in these discussions, I have something to comment here:

You can easily create a deck without a Tarmogoyf. ANT, Stompy variants, D&T, Solidarity, etc. It's true that a lot of the top decks in Legacy can either deal or win with Tarmogoyf, but some decks can pretty much ignore it.

You must be joking when speaking of dual lands. IMO, it's only actual win-conditions, not catalysts that should be banned, therefore, I think it's a weird thing to say. Brainstorm is the most played card in Legacy. But it's only a link to win, and therefore, it can't be banned - also because it isn't a part of a combo. It's true that Brainstorm + shuffle effect gives you a high win percentage, but you don't actually win from doing that. That's why you can't ban the dual lands. They would lockdown the entire legacy field, leaving Legacy as Extended, just with whackier cards. I'd say that the dual lands are the glue of the format (or at least, the fecthes are).

Counterbalance is different. I can't remember the last time I won against CounterTop when I wasn't playing Dragon Stompy/Wildfire for fun. Even a Counterbalance alone has a great chance to counter your spells with "blind flips", and i.e. Thresh has other of ways to control the top card. Brainstorm, lol, for example. Man, that Brainstorm is good by the way. But not ban-able, for the record.

[socialite]

A. Can't say I feel the same way as you. Although I agree it can be a rather aggravating card to play against if you have no idea how to play against it and or do not prepare for it. You sound like you are an aggro pet deck player who is irritated because you run a 1-2 CC build that just rolls over to a resolved Counter Balance rather than presenting a decent argument.

B. Learn to play around it or play a deck with high all around CC that mostly shrugs at Counter Balance such as Faerie Stompy.

C. I honestly believe there is no real warrant behind the original post and desire for this card to be banned besides "CRY it irritates me".

D. This is also coming from someone who does not run Counter Balance in any deck.

E. This thread should be closed.

[Jak]

If you ban Counterbalance, you ban LED. I think it would be interesting to see those cards gone because they both bend the format over backwards and control it. I don't think they are unbeatable at all, but I think it would be nice to not have to play with 8+ disruption spells to beat combo or always pack Grip in the SB.

LED makes the format fast (or at least make people feel they need to make their deck faster) and Counterbalance preys on that. Kind of an unfair thing but you can't ban one without the other.

[Jaynel]

(b) what are some effective means, short of playing Chalice decks to keep this card from invalidating your entire deck.



B. Learn to play around it or play a deck with high all around CC that mostly shrugs at Counter Balance such as Faerie Stompy.


Anyways, I don't see Counterbalance as such a huge deal. Sometimes they get the nuts and land a turn one Top followed by a Counterbalance. Sometimes combo unloads on your face turn one. Every deck has busted openings that just win the game. That's the format we play.

[jazzykat]

While counterbalance mirrors are ASS! I don't think we have to ban it.

Granted with top and especially paired with fetches you normally win the game but there are times that you just can't find the right cc even if its within your curve.

I honestly think that there needs to be another effective card not in green to deal with it. How about grip in White? I found it sort of screwy when they gave green Naturalize so let's bring it the other way.

A pre-emptive pithing needle also goes along way to making peoples' lives miserable.

I just don't think it's bad enough yet.

[heroicraptor]

A pre-emptive pithing needle also goes along way to making peoples' lives miserable.
CB has a triggered ability.

[Nihil Credo]

CB has a triggered ability.
You disable Top and as an added bonus Counterbalance becomes a totally fair Quantum Counterspell.

[AngryTroll]

Pithing Needle on Top deals a real blow to Counterbalance's game-dominating effect.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Nihil on that point.

EE can be set for three mana plus two to activate; you don't need four. Against most decks, (ITF and Demigod are exceptions), the Counterbalance won't be able to stop something that costs three.

You can also diversity your curve, run cards like Spell Snare and Krosan Grip, both of which are reasonable mainboard cards, or play mass removal like EE and Deed, also reasonable mainboard cards. Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needle give every color a set of good answers to Counterbalance, and both are versatile enough to warrant sideboard slots.

In addition to EE and Needle, Krosan Grip, Oblivion Ring, Spell Snare, Annul, Trygon Predator, Deed, and Vindicate all do a great job against Counterbalance. Black and Red have a hard time with it, as those colors do with all enchantments.

Without Counterbalance, would the Control part of the Rock-Paper-Scissors metagame be playable? Certainly ITF and Demigod would be severely wounded, leaving the pure control role in the hands of...Quinn?

[MattH]

1. I don't like playing against this card.

2. Counterbalance/Top doesn't need to be banned, though.

[Infinitium]

SDT doesn't (although all decks running it runs artifact hate in their 75 as well, so it's a sketchy solution at best). EDIT: tl;drtfnpwIwt

Semi-agree w/ Finn since the card isn't vital for any given archetype and thus removing wouldn't change the demographics of Legacy that badly; combo in general and High Tide in particular would be better, but it wouldn't invalidate any given archetype completely. It is incredibly easy to run with no apparent drawback since Blue decks typically are better off with SDT anyway, and FoW mitigates drawing multiple balances and most importantly it will pretty much always require more resources to be dealt with than it will take playing/maintaining. "Playing Around" Counterbalance generally isn't an option either since you will have to rely on whatever spell resolves to either win the game without any support whatsoever (which is unlikely given the amount of disruption/control CB decks typically run unless it involves Combo going off) or remove CB itself (which is severe card/tempo disadvantage).

Personally I think the card is just generally a pain in the ass and would like to see it gone for a limited period to evaluate the metagame effects.

@Angrytroll: MUC, Landstill, Stax? Besides, Intuition control still has a retarded CA engine with Intuition -> Loam in general and RavenLoam in particular versus combo/control.

[socialite]

Remove CB/SDT and this format is going to get fucking stupid really quick.

Combo Winter. No Thanks.

Moot.

[Aggro_zombies]

Remove CB/SDT and this format is going to get fucking stupid really quick.

Combo Winter. No Thanks.

Moot.
Counterbalance doesn't keep combo in check. Most combo decks have ways around it, or are faster than it.

Almost no one playing combo keeps combo in check.

[socialite]

Counterbalance doesn't keep combo in check. Most combo decks have ways around it, or are faster than it.

Almost no one playing combo keeps combo in check.

I respectfully disagree.

My point was more that the format is in a healthy state that does not need any changing.

[Aggro_zombies]

I respectfully disagree.

My point was more that the format is in a healthy state that does not need any changing.
Conceded on the second point. However, combo was not dominant before Counterbalance was printed (then again, Goblins was the DTB and there was no Tarmogoyf, so make what you will of that), and decks now can deal with it:

ANT can slow play the Counterbalance player until he gets bounce, then go off.

TES is about as fast or faster than Counterbalance by itself, and much faster than Counterbalance + Top.

SI is much faster than Counterbalance but loses to itself.

Other combo decks don't show up enough to matter.

[socialite]

Conceded on the second point. However, combo was not dominant before Counterbalance was printed (then again, Goblins was the DTB and there was no Tarmogoyf, so make what you will of that), and decks now can deal with it:

ANT can slow play the Counterbalance player until he gets bounce, then go off.

TES is about as fast or faster than Counterbalance by itself, and much faster than Counterbalance + Top.

SI is much faster than Counterbalance but loses to itself.

Other combo decks don't show up enough to matter.

I agree to a certain extent that combo can smoke CB/SDT on occasion. (That's Combo). I just find that in practical application a CD/SDT just shuts down most combo. Reminds me of Dreadstill versus TES in The Source 5 Year finals.

Edit: You are right about Combo before CB/SDT. But I also do not think Combo at that point in time was nearly as good as it is now.

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree to a certain extent that combo can smoke CB/SDT on occasion. (That's Combo). I just find that in practical application a CD/SDT just shuts down most combo. Reminds me of Dreadstill versus TES in The Source 5 Year finals.

Edit: You are right about Combo before CB/SDT. But I also do not think Combo at that point in time was nearly as good as it is now.
This is only true because decks that run Counterbalance tend to run Force and Daze as well. In the absence of those two cards, which act to slow the opponent's early passes at going off, CB would be insufficient to stop combo because it would be too slow in most cases.

It's the package and not any individual card that hurts.

[chokin]

"Beating" Counterbalance:
-Play Krosan Grip.
-Play Engineered Explosives with extra mana or Deeds.
-Deal with it beforehand with discard or Meddling Mage (lol) or Pithing Needle for the Top or Seal of Primordium.
-Play outside of the 1-2cc range.
-Don't play spells (Ichorid).
-Play your own Counterbalance.
-Play Chalice of the Void.

If you can't beat it, join it?

[Shugyosha]

Counterbalance doesn't keep combo in check. Most combo decks have ways around it, or are faster than it.

With counterbalance gone combo decks wouldn't need to be as fast as they are now. You also only have to tap for CB once early and then can proceed to play creatures for the kill. Without CB you have to run stuff like Counterspell which is awful when you want to kill your opponent before the counterspell won't matter anymore.
Counterbalance also takes care of discard relatively easy. An therefore invalidates one of the usual anti-counter strategies.

There are lots of ways to kill a CB, when you use them you will notice that CB is only half the problem. Top can get you to the stuff that matters. Would people run CB when Top were banned? No. Would they run Top if CB were banned? I would certainly do.

[Finn]

Thanks for the responses that were thoughtful. Pithing Needle was a particularly good idea considering what is already generally known.

I just don't want to be stuck in green or waiting to at minimum turn 4 to have an answer since this:
It is incredibly easy to run with no apparent drawback since Blue decks typically are better off with SDT anyway, and FoW mitigates drawing multiple balances and most importantly it will pretty much always require more resources to be dealt with than it will take playing/maintaining. "Playing Around" Counterbalance generally isn't an option either since you will have to rely on whatever spell resolves to either win the game without any support whatsoever (which is unlikely given the amount of disruption/control CB decks typically run unless it involves Combo going off) or remove CB itself (which is severe card/tempo disadvantage).
is exactly the scenario I am talking about avoiding. Its overall impact on the game is quite extensive.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Counterbalance is fine. Top is busted. CB + Top = stupid.

If we were banning something to fix a perceived problem, Id have to go with Top.

[Cenarius]

Banning either one of the two cards involving CB/Top would unleash Combo. Counterbalance is the only card that prevents Combo not to go insane, since combo only tends to have a bad matchup against CB/top decks. Landstill, Team America (and other Non-Cb/top, but still playing blue) easily loose against ANT, having 8! disruption cards.
No card should be banned, since the Metagame is in balance (nice pun)

[electrolyze]

Cant they just better ban Ad nauseum AND counterbalance then, then combo is still strong and the meta is not overwhelmed by countertop decks anymore.


Personally, i dont care about ad nauseum and counterbalance(although they can be irritating sometimes:laugh: ) But its just an example.

[b4r0n]

Counterbalance is fine. Top is busted. CB + Top = stupid.

If we were banning something to fix a perceived problem, Id have to go with Top.

I completely agree. Counterbalance is actually a pretty fair card. Top, on the other hand, allows for the card to be abused. Not to mention the fact that Top often makes matches go for way too long. That's why it was banned in Extended, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it eventually banned in Legacy as well.

[Xero_2285]

Counterbalance is the only card that prevents Combo not to go insane,

Ethersworn Cannonist?

[Cenarius]

Banning Ad Nauseam does not change anything. Combo deck will just run 4 Infernal tutors and Burning wish and still own all other decks, since Counterbalance got banned.
TES, ANT can (easily) deal with Ethersworn Cannonist, an active Counterbalance is much more worse for decks like those.

[Aggro_zombies]

Banning Ad Nauseam does not change anything. Combo deck will just run 4 Infernal tutors and Burning wish and still own all other decks, since Counterbalance got banned.
TES, ANT can (easily) deal with Ethersworn Cannonist, an active Counterbalance is much more worse for decks like those.
How do you figure? The hate-removal spell of choice for combo decks is usually bounce of some sort (ANT) or something like Hull Breach/Grip. Wipe Away deals with Counterbalance just as easily as it deals with Canonist.

EDIT: Besides, the fact that combo is still making Top 8 in Europe despite the prevalence of Counterbalance decks would suggest that combo doesn't get totally shut down by CB. It just slows the combo deck down. If Counterbalance wasn't around, combo would be faster because it wouldn't need to dig for bounce first, but that doesn't mean that it would totally dominate the metagame unless a slew of players decided to start playing it.

[Bahamuth]

How do you figure? The hate-removal spell of choice for combo decks is usually bounce of some sort (ANT) or something like Hull Breach/Grip. Wipe Away deals with Counterbalance just as easily as it deals with Canonist.

EDIT: Besides, the fact that combo is still making Top 8 in Europe despite the prevalence of Counterbalance decks would suggest that combo doesn't get totally shut down by CB. It just slows the combo deck down. If Counterbalance wasn't around, combo would be faster because it wouldn't need to dig for bounce first, but that doesn't mean that it would totally dominate the metagame unless a slew of players decided to start playing it.

You're wrong. Counterbalance locks combo off it's cantrips and Mystical Tutors as well. The combo player can't find his bounce spells reliably.

In my experience with both TES and ANT, the deck loses 95% of the games where a Counterbalance lands. Especially against ANT, it barely needs a Top at all, since almost every card in Thresh's deck shuts down the combo. This might be different in ITF or something else, but I still don't expect combo to win through CB often.

[Forbiddian]

Reasons why it should NOT be banned:
Contention 1) Counterbalance is at a reasonable level in every top 8.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22214 (most recent top 8 I saw on deckcheck):

3 copies of Counterbalance
15 copies of Standstill

It's not the best top 8 and probably in real life there's more CB than Standstill, but it's clearly not simply bowling over the rest of the competition. There's a good blend of deck choices and card choices.

Contention 2) Counterbalance does not preclude any niches from existing. Combo of all types exists, aggro exists, control exists, and all the slashes exist, and each archetype consistently top 8s.


The only reason why anybody would think CB should be banned is pure laziness. You're tired of your beautiful creations sucking because CB owns them. Look around at the other decks, most don't run CB. It's not that CB is distorting the format, it's that your ideas are inferior. If CB/Top didn't bully your deck out of the format, a half dozen other good decks would outcompete it.

Understand that CB is part of the metagame, just like TES or Ichorid or Goblins. They bring a different gameplan to the tables. Their gameplan strictly overwrites whatever gameplans you had. Deal with it or accept the losing matchup.



Also, the probability of getting turn 1 Top, turn 2 CB is next to nothing. I don't get why everyone is so fixated on that. It happens like ~10% of the time, and that's when you don't even disrupt them. If it came out all the time turn 2, yeah, I'd think that CB/Top was imbalanced. It doesn't. If CB/Top is later than turn 3 or so, you should probably have resolved your good spells or have a way to deal with it.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Choke is another great answer to Counterbalance. They can't activate Top if they can't untap lands! Is Counterbalance + Top busted? Certainly not, there are a LOT of answers to it. The reason it hoses combo decks so bad is it stops ALL their relevant spells and prevents them from properly setting up the combo. It is a serious problem, from a combo player's perspective you would much rather see the Cannonist in play than CB since you can keep setting up then bounce/Disenchant the Cannonist when its time to go off. I personally think Gaddock Teeg is a lot better than the Cannonist at hosing combo since it has to be bounced rather that either bounced or Disenchanted and it stops Belcher completely, they HAVE to answer it before they can win.

I have played against Counterbalance a lot since the people in my meta seem to love the card. I hate it with a passion, not because its good, but because its just so damn boring to play against. Against the right deck CB can dominate, and just lock the opponent out of the game. Thats a reason I get so much satisfaction from playing Dredge in my meta! But since Krosan Grip exists I really don't care about Counterbalance, the reason I wanted it banned is it makes games a lot less fun and hella more boring, especially the CB mirror. Watching the matchups is a lot like watching paint dry.

I totally agree with Jak, if Counterbalance goes, LED has to go. Combo would still be around and damn good at that (since no CB), but it would not be nearly as explosive without it.

[morgan_coke]

I'm a really big fan of both Chalice and Counterbalance being in the format for the same reason I like Wasteland and Moon effects. They help to balance the formats power tendencies.

Would anyone play basics if you got rid of the easy non-basic hate like what's mentioned above? CB/Top and Chalice provide incentive to diversify your mana curve, instead of giving in to the temptation to just run all the best 1cc spells. You can still do that of course, just look at Threshold + friends, but you open yourself to a vulnerability by doing so.

It's why affinity was a huge problem in standard but isn't much of a threat in legacy. Yeah, you can play it, but you open yourself to all kinds of risk and hate that just totally owns you. I think the format would actually be less diverse without such strong hosers around to keep people honest with their deckbuilding. There is even metagame evidence for this. When goblins began to decline, manabases got noticeably shakier and the numbers of basics being played dropped.

CB/Top is a two card combo that belongs in the "hall of very good", not the hall of banned.

Finn's request section:
Also, while I would absolutely love a cycling Naturalize that isn't Break Asunder, if you want a cycling card that deals with CB, you have Akroma's Vengeance, Clear, and Wipe Away (plus Break Asunder) as options. They all cycle, they all kill it.

[Finn]

Well, I was actually looking for something that cycled and had a trigger that killed it. But, thanks just the same. What you said about balancing the power would be just dandy if Counterbalance actually prevented low cost cards. Instead it turns the game into a Masques Block race to get Lin Sivvi into play first. That is, it gives the low curve decks all the power instead of taking it away.

You guys know, Lion's Eye Diamond has been around and in widespread use since before Counterbalance, right?

[GreenOne]

Besides, the fact that combo is still making Top 8 in Europe despite the prevalence of Counterbalance decks would suggest that combo doesn't get totally shut down by CB. It just slows the combo deck down. If Counterbalance wasn't around, combo would be faster because it wouldn't need to dig for bounce first, but that doesn't mean that it would totally dominate the metagame unless a slew of players decided to start playing it.
ANT is a deck that can't combo through counterbalance (usually even without a top) and has just 1 MD bounce spell. That means that once CB lands the ANT player has to actually draw this 1 card, cause his cantrips/tutors are likely get countered by CB itself.

I'm not agreeing that CB slows the deck down. It usually just spells doom (at least MD), cause it needs an average 20 turns to actually draw the bounce in your draw step, and the opponent has plenty of time to kill you, find counterspells, put you low on life, find other counterbalances, etc.

Things become different for FT and TES, where one has enough draw (SDT too) to draw into the bounce or can build DD stacks to work around CB@1, zero or 2, and the other has the speed to race it, or if CB lands, it can still try to circumvent it.

I hate CB. But CB+Top is a format defining combo that is actually needed to keep combo in check. Otherwise things like AN or LED should be banned: combo already has a positive or fair matchup against everything else.

Combo can also be adjusted to have a better matchup against CB, with discard, REBs, Krosan Grips, Wipe Aways and the like. Doing that you also lose some percentage against aggro decks, which is fair. You can't beat anything or you're just too broken for the format.

[FoolofaTook]

For me the Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top question basically comes down to a couple of questions:

1. Is the combo so dominant that only a few decks have any chance to beat it once it lands?

2. Is the combo so dominant that a wide range of decks are adding it or developing strategies specifically to beat it? In other words does it define the meta?

Honestly I believe the answer to both questions is no, so as much as I dislike playing against the combo I don't believe that it is likely to be or should be banned at the moment.

I don't like the fact that CounterTop restricts me from building a bunch of decks I'd like to, however it's no different than Goblins, Landstill or TES in that context. Most decks I'd like to build in Legacy (and most that I have built) are going to be ineffective due to a strong archetype that absolutely dominates them.

I'd rather see Force of Will banned, to make blue vulnerable on the draw again, than Counterbalance at this point.

[Gibbie_X]

While you're at it, why not ban Tarmogoyf? A turn two 3/4 for two mana, only one of which is colored, is pretty warping. After all, every deck in the format has to play Goyf or play to answer Goyf. I think that's pretty good grounds for banning. Ditto dual lands. If you're not playing them, chances are you're playing some janky mono-colored deck, which is probably inferior to your deck plus a splash. Dual lands are therefore bad for the health of the format.

I find this amusing, I'm sorry....

Goyf is an incredible creature, and this is coming from a guy who will NEVER play the card. But as big as it gets, it's no Superman, Bob, or Masticore. Granted, no one would even consider banning these cards, no matter how much people gripe. Gofy is so easily killed it isn't even funny. Now, if it said 'Indestructible, shroud' at 2, then we have a problem, but it doesn't.

Now back to the point of the thread....
I HATE Counterbalance. It is a card that should never have been printed, and I am sure everyone can agree with me as too why. It makes the game not fun to play. When you go up against a deck that has that hard a lock fairly quickly and sets all the tempo the entire game, you immediately want to punch the guy across from you for ruining the purpose of enjoying this horrible addiction all of us suffer from. Then you realize that would get you banned, so you gripe. Well, I'm griping, as loud as possible.

And if you are one of those Dicks that enjoys playing that card for the specific reason of annoying the shit out of you opponent, or because you think it is unstoppable, you need to get a different hobby. You ruin it for everyone else, stop it. Go club baby seals or something, just leave the country and go somewhere cold where a polar bear can eat you.

Now playing around this obvious injustice to the game...

Decks that have a sound theory of disruption, i.e. Duress, Counterspell ect., don't worry unless it resolves. The ones that let it resolve should have a sound theory to get around it, Needle the top, Grip it, Seal of cleansing/Primordium, or even Deed and Explosives.

Here's where it gets tricky. If you look at some of the lists that have been posted by Peter_Rotten, most of those decks don't run the stupid card. I would link it, but me too lazy, so you find them....

[Soulles]

I tried it once. Playing countertop in some fish deck i made.

For some reason i kept failing doing something with it. I started to realize it is one of these things that i horribly suck at, but see other people shatter some dreams of other players with it.

I wonder if i am the only one with this syndrome.

[Jak]

You really need to put Counterbalance in a deck that can take advantage of it. Obviously pair it with Top but make sure your deck has a good amount of 1cc, 2cc, and 3cc cards. If you try and stick it in a deck with 24 lands, Wrath of Gods, Exalte Angels, or whatever (just an example) it tends to suck. Put it in something like ITF where they have a good curve and plenty of ways to manipulate the top card of their library (Academy Ruins, Volrath"s Stronghold, Top, Brainstorm) then Counterbalance is a real bomb.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I will say that not only do I not think that Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void should remain unbanned, I will go as far as to say that they the absolute last cards that should be banned from the format. And I would add Top and Ancient Tomb and Chrome Mox to that list just because they support these cards.

Simply put, CB and Chalice, and to a lesser extent Pernicious Deed, force diversity. They actually reward you for playing high CC spells, and punish you for loading your deck up with 1 and 2 cc spells. Almost the entirety of the rest of the game is exerting a powerful force in the opposite direction.

These cards offer enormous value to the format. Please don't talk about banning them. You don't think that CB and Chalice and Deed are fun? I don't think that a format where cards that cost more than 2 are unplayable is fun. I played that format, it was called GP Columbus. Not exactly a barrel of laughs.

[Omega]

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenarius
Counterbalance is the only card that prevents Combo not to go insane,

Ethersworn Cannonist?"

When was ethersworn played anyway?

Robert

[Jak]

I agree that Counterbalance and the other cards mentioned create diversity, but the only problem with playing with higher costed cards is that the format got so fast. Combo has gotten faster which means answers and hate need to be faster. Creatures have gotten cheaper which means removal needs to be cheaper. Counterbalance really exploits that. I am not saying it should be banned, but there are reasons people don't play their Spiritmingers or Exalted Angels.

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree that Counterbalance and the other cards mentioned create diversity, but the only problem with playing with higher costed cards is that the format got so fast. Combo has gotten faster which means answers and hate need to be faster. Creatures have gotten cheaper which means removal needs to be cheaper. Counterbalance really exploits that. I am not saying it should be banned, but there are reasons people don't play their Spiritmingers or Exalted Angels.
Spiritmonger hasn't been a good creature in years. Exalted Angel sees play in Armageddon Stax.

The format may be speeding up, but that doesn't mean you can't play higher casting-cost cards. You seem to forget that we also have access to most of the best acceleration available to the game, the Vintage Moxen and a few other random artifacts excepted. There's no reason why a control deck can't play expensive bombs if it has access to fast mana.

Counterbalance rewards good deck building and playing, plain and simple. Anyone can build the "lol all my spells cost less than 2 lol" deck: it's called combo, and playing against one makes you feel slightly gay because you have to sit and watch some guy masturbate for like ten minutes until he finally decides to satisfy himself and end the game with a big dollop of storm all over the place. As IBA said, the format would devolve into GP Columbus Redux if things like Counterbalance and Chalice weren't around to effectively hate out the most ridiculous decks. I'd be willing to wager that the presence of those two cards, more than anything else, allows for the variety the format has.

[Jak]

I never said Legacy wouldn't become stupid if we banned those cards. What I did say was that making your deck CB proof isn't as easy as it sounds.

Edit- Those creatures were just examples, but Exalted Angel is a good one. It was heavily played between UW Fish, Stax, Angel Stompy, and pretty much anything in white. Now, costing 7 over two turns is way to slow for the format unless you have a heavy package of accelerants (ie Moxes, Tombs, and Cities).

[DeathwingZERO]

The format may be speeding up, but that doesn't mean you can't play higher casting-cost cards. You seem to forget that we also have access to most of the best acceleration available to the game, the Vintage Moxen and a few other random artifacts excepted. There's no reason why a control deck can't play expensive bombs if it has access to fast mana..

Please tell me how a deck trying to play around CB is going to abuse being able to play Chrome Mox, LED, Mox Diamond, etc (and at the same time not call itself fast combo, either)? Flip a land, counter target artifact. Put Top back on the top of the library, counter target acceleration.

Yes, other decks (meaning dedicated control Stax variants) can decide to go to using the two mana lands, but now they open themselves up to hate from even more decks, especially Tempo Thresh builds. It's not going to help the problem, it will exacerbate it.

Counterbalance is fine on it's own, but it's not challenging or "fun" (they seem to love that term at WotC) when all the opponent has to do to gain an amazing upper hand on a good portion of the field is go "In response, activate Top". It turns a soft lock into a hard counter for one mana far too often. Card advantage becomes ridiculous, and often unstoppable.

And if the format's majority has to actually change it's curve, that's very much the definition of format warping. And this is in addition to fighting Force of Will, Daze, and whatever else said deck feels like packing.

My two cents: ditch Top.

The card is just stupid. I don't care how many amazing cards supposedly stop it, frankly the only one that's got any real considerable potential is Krosan Grip, because Top can't respond.

Even if it's not fueling Counterbalance, it's far too cheap of an investment in this format to drastically alter the balance of card quality between opponents. One colorless mana (an easy splash), and a cheap activation, and you see three turns ahead of your opponent, and even get the chance to mix them up a bit. If you can shuffle, now you get to see a fresh new three turns. All because your curve is so tight that mana basically sits around.

Funny thing is, only a select number of blue decks are capable of abusing it, but keeping under the radar about it. I guarantee you that if more decks than ITF/Thresh variants could make use of it, the format would be showing far more decks with Top in the top 8. But we don't see it, because they can't abuse it.

Frankly, I can count the number of times Counterbalance itself lost me a game in one hand. Top, on the other hand, has turned winning games into losing ones from a single shuffle or cantrip far too often. I'd estimate a good 60% of those losses my opponents never even put Counterbalance on the table. They just simply ran me over through being able to see further, and manipulate what they saw.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Please tell me how a deck trying to play around CB is going to abuse being able to play Chrome Mox, LED, Mox Diamond, etc (and at the same time not call itself fast combo, either)?Ichorid, 'x' Stompy, and Aggro Loam all use LED, Chrome Mox, and Mox Diamond, respectively, while supporting a curve that can function under Counterbalance.

[Bryant Cook]

They will never banned Counterbalance, if there is a card that they ban, it will be Sensei's Divining Top. If Top goes then LED will also go, because doing one or the other would just be stupid and lead to an unbalanced format.


This is ridiculous. Combo loses to cards other than Counter/top; you don't need to lock every opponent you play out of the game by playing 2 cards. Team America and versions of tempo Threshold do just fine against TES without playing counter top. Discard does fine too, hell even burn does fairly well now thanks to Ad Nauseum requiring life. My point being, I don't care one way or another if Counter/top gets the axe, but it doesn't need to include LED to keep a balanced format. People who play Counter/top need to learn to deal with cards/matchups without a cheap and non-interactive answer.

From the other counterbalance thread.

[DeathwingZERO]

I completely agree. Fast combo is not invulnerable, and CounterTop only gave a larger edge to decks that could already disrupt it, not make losing matchups all of a sudden wins.

CounterTop does not need to stay just to keep combo from going insane. There's still plenty of other options to hate on those decks.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't play mana acceleration in control. And I've got to tell you, I have no problem splashing bombs in there. Yes, every deck has to have some plays on the first few turns of the game. Counterbalance-Top and Chalice are never dead cards; that's fine. That's as it should be. EE and Deed hit shit. This creates tension in the metagame.

But it's also perfectly possible to run cards outside of that range. Tombstalker, for instance, or Affinity creatures get around this problem. Goblins has no serious problem with CB.

These cards are some of the best and most powerful answers in the format, but they answer things that would otherwise be stupid.

If playing around CB and Chalice gets problematic, I would much, much, much rather see Sinkhole and Daze getting banned than any part of the engine that fuels CB or Chalice. These are load-bearing cards. Heck, they're the only reason any deck has an excuse to not run on 4x Brainstorm and 4x Ponder.

[Jak]

I am not saying you can't splash bombs into your deck. You can easily play with Decree or whatnot, but your whole deck can't be packed with expensive, but amazing answers.

Legacy completely revolves around 1,2, and 3 cc. Spell Snare, CounterTop, EE, Chalice, and Deed are some examples of cards that are good in Legacy because of all the cheap creatures, instants, enchantments, etc. People are all still running those mentioned cards, so why haven't more people upped their curve and just play around them? It's because they can't. The format has decks that can win fast if left unchecked. Unless you plan to dilute your deck with stuff like Tombs, Cities, and Moxen, your deck will lose. Some decks can abuse that acceleration setup, but are you saying other decks should?

I repeat, I am not trying to say CB should be banned. I find it fine. What I am against is how it takes advantage of the cheapness of Legacy. The format keeps getting cheaper things and to keep up you need to run stuff that CB hits. I think banning Top wouldn't be a horrible idea, but I think slowing the format down would be the best thing. It then allows a diversity in cc and allows aggro to really get back in the format.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How are you going to slow the format down? Ban fast mana? I wouldn't necessarily be against it. But ANT doesn't seem to be super prevalent, and there's already quite a lot of diversity in the metagame. Ban Tarmogoyf? I could get behind it, but by itself that might just help combo.

[Jak]

I don't know, I haven't really thought about it, but mostly what you said. Something to slow combo down a bit and Goyf. I would also ban Top.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I would also ban Top.


Yeah, then there's no reason not to play Blue in this format unless you pull a Vintage and ban Brainstorm + Ponder.

[Citrus-God]

I don't know, I haven't really thought about it, but mostly what you said. Something to slow combo down a bit and Goyf. I would also ban Top.

If we're banning Top, we're banning LED. Ad Nauseum is fine, as long as LED isn't present.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Bullshit. If Blue gets Brainstorm + Ponder, other colors need Top or you're weighting things ridiculous. It's already absurd what a monopoly Blue already has over the most basic resource of the game, cards.

Remove Top and blue monpolizes the control archetype.

[Gibbie_X]

Spiritmonger hasn't been a good creature in years. Exalted Angel sees play in Armageddon Stax.

Anyone can build the "lol all my spells cost less than 2 lol" deck: it's called combo, and playing against one makes you feel slightly gay because you have to sit and watch some guy masturbate for like ten minutes until he finally decides to satisfy himself and end the game with a big dollop of storm all over the place.

Hahaha


"WOTC has been creaming their pants about Kai for the past 24 hours. Someone is gonna have to go in there with a mop."


This quote is originally from Misetings.com, check out some of them, it's some funny shit.

So what is it with the massive spooge references. I mean, just search 'furiously' on here and see what comes up, no pun intended.

That is a great point. every other color has a way to use and or abuse Top. I don't know the specifics as to why it caught a ban in Extended, it was a shook to me when a dude I played agaisnt just before the rotation Screamed like a 10 year-old child with spilled ice cream, 'Illegal card, check rules.' then disconnects. I knew it was busted, but didn't think that busted.

[FoolofaTook]

There is absolutely no reason to ban Sensei's Divining Top. It's barely playable in most decks despite being a 1cc artifact that facilitates card selection and allows cantripping of a card buried up to 3 deep in the deck.

If SDT was played in a wide range of decks and was a card you had to add in almost every deck you built then it *might* be worthy of banning. Instead it is a card that is played in conjunction with Counterbalance and in some non-blue control decks that can exploit it.

The only decks in the DTB forum that play Sensei's Divining Top are most of the Threshold variants and Dreadstill. Would anybody seriously advocate the banning of SDT based on it's inclusion in those decks? Dreadstill is not even playable without it.

[DeathwingZERO]

There is absolutely no reason to ban Sensei's Divining Top. It's barely playable in most decks despite being a 1cc artifact that facilitates card selection and allows cantripping of a card buried up to 3 deep in the deck.

Yet the only decks capable of abusing it's potential and downright breaking it are Threshold style decks, simply because of their already dense amount of cantrips and shuffle effects. Factor in that now the card is being abused, and it's no wonder why people immediately say Counterbalance is a problem. It's because they don't see the real one, Top being CB's hard-lock enabler.


If SDT was played in a wide range of decks and was a card you had to add in almost every deck you built then it *might* be worthy of banning. Instead it is a card that is played in conjunction with Counterbalance and in some non-blue control decks that can exploit it.

This is because a lot of decks that aren't utilizing it don't have that curve to keep the mana open. Thresh and it's ilk stop at 3cc (and barely play anything at that number), leaving plenty of time, mana, and resources able to turn it into a turn-by-turn Brainstorm. Simply put, it's a ridiculous advantage over anything that happens to fall into the same CC range as Thresh, because they can't abuse Counterbalance without Top.


The only decks in the DTB forum that play Sensei's Divining Top are most of the Threshold variants and Dreadstill. Would anybody seriously advocate the banning of SDT based on it's inclusion in those decks? Dreadstill is not even playable without it.

Dreadstill doesn't even need Top to be played, it plays CB/Top because it makes it a fair matchup against both combo and Threshold, which is exactly what Thresh attempts doing to the format at large. If both decks lost Top, they wouldn't lose their ability to stick around. It would just mean that a majority of the matches aren't a CounterTop speed race now. If you can assemble the lock against either deck, usually they can't get out of it. It's a double-edged sword playing decks with CounterTop because he who assembles first typically has the win.

Simply put, Top is allowing Counterbalance to actually cause serious problems to decks that try to pack a tighter curve. And not only decks that would fit it's 1-2cc range, but anything that packs a majority of 1-2cc, regardless of packing other spells as well. Decks are not being obsoleted because they are bad builds, they are being obsoleted unless they pack the CounterTop engine as well. We can't even prove otherwise.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Simply put, Top is allowing Counterbalance to actually cause serious problems to decks that try to pack a tighter curve. And not only decks that would fit it's 1-2cc range, but anything that packs a majority of 1-2cc, regardless of packing other spells as well. Decks are not being obsoleted because they are bad builds, they are being obsoleted unless they pack the CounterTop engine as well. We can't even prove otherwise.

Where are you going with this? This sounds like the worst reason to ban a card ever. "It punishes people that pack nothing but 1-2 cc cards!" Including other CB-Top decks, incidentally.

So what? Vary your mana curve a little bit. Hell, CB-Top saves you money by giving you a great excuse not to run Tarmogoyf.

[Rood]

They would absolutely have to ban Counterbalance though and not Top. Blind CB flips still absolutely smash combo, I see it happen alot. Also Top is alot less threatening without Counterbalance legal.

[Jade]

They would absolutely have to ban Counterbalance though and not Top. Blind CB flips still absolutely smash combo, I see it happen alot. Also Top is alot less threatening without Counterbalance legal.

Would you play a blind Counterbalance as your combo-hate of choice? I wouldn't.

I don't know, the format is very focused on CMC right know with Counterbalances and Chalices everywhere. That definately has some positive effects (combo not going rampant and such), but CounterTop is damn close to my personal Bah-roken-line and prevents me from playing my favourite decks. Still, the format probably needs it at this time. This Topic makes me schizophrenic. :confused:

[DeathwingZERO]

They would absolutely have to ban Counterbalance though and not Top. Blind CB flips still absolutely smash combo, I see it happen alot. Also Top is alot less threatening without Counterbalance legal.

How is Top less threatening than blind Counterbalance?

A blind Counterbalance means that they have to manage their topdeck with their cantrips, or fight blind and get lucky. And yes, this is enough to actually still give combo decks trouble. So in a way, Counterbalance can stick around and continue to punish those decks (less severely, but it will), while not causing every other archetype to get the collateral damage.

That's good. It's healthy. It's now nothing more than a soft lock, and a random one at that. There's now more potential to get rid of it once it hits play. It's also now back to being potential CA, not flat out guaranteed CA.

Top, on the other hand, will always generate CA, because it digs and cantrips, then comes back for more. Think of it more as decks packing a combination of 16 or so Ponder and Brainstorm now, because a single Top tends to activate at least twice while it's on the table. You get to look at the top three cards of your deck, then take one, and you lose a permanent. Then you draw it again, and do it over. It's like the Bauble's, only good.


Where are you going with this? This sounds like the worst reason to ban a card ever. "It punishes people that pack nothing but 1-2 cc cards!" Including other CB-Top decks, incidentally.

So what? Vary your mana curve a little bit. Hell, CB-Top saves you money by giving you a great excuse not to run Tarmogoyf.

Really? I said that because the format revolves around 0-2cc making a 2 card combo that's never supposed to be anything more than a soft lock an often undeserved bye. Tell the format to vary it's CC, not me.

Not to mention, many varying versions of Thresh and other CounterTop engines pack 3cc in at least 4 ofs, if not 6-8 of in post sideboard games. Most notably is Krosan Grip, primarily in attempts to fight off opposing CounterTop.

So now you are saying to diversify your curve. Okay, that's nice. Seen any decks so far in the past let's say.....year, that's pulled that off and managed to still stay competitive?

From what I see, the entire DtB section fits the criteria you are saying to avoid. So is a majority of the well placing portion of Established. They are all packed tight with cards just inside the 0-3cc range.

Why? Because the format is fast.

Every deck in that forum wants to win or control the game by turn 3. This is the format. Sure, interaction causes games to go much further, so none of the decks actually achieve this clock regularly. That's not the point.

The point is, CounterTop in our format is non-interactive, and causes much more stagnation than it possibly would prevent. Combo is not going to go apeshit on us if CounterTop is gone. Multiple combo players have all stated that in this thread. Would probably be worth it to listen to us about it.

And honestly, if you already have a bad combo matchup, dedicate your board to it. If an entire archetype hoses you, that's much different than a 2 card combo.

The point is you cannot have speed and a higher curve in this format. It's virtually impossible. And an unstable manabase just to push out these expensive spells is an even worse idea.

So really, CounterTop is punishing those who want to work outside the box just as much as those wanting to work inside it. So it's either play a deck that you know will race/disrupt CounterTop or play a deck that will beat them to it. That is unhealthy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I have to ask what format you're playing, Zero.

I count Goblins, Landstill, and the Rock as decks that retain half or greater functionality in the face of Counter-Top. Team America also limits it's vulnerability more than you might imagine with Snuff Out and Tombstalker.

This isn't counting Blank-Stompy, Ichorid, Survival, or any of numerous other decks that are competitive and can win through Counterbalance.

The combo is good. So what? Where is it making the format worse? Your argument is itself ridiculous; you point out how many of the decks in the DTB forum are so vulnerable to Counter-Top, and yet most of them don't run Counter-Top, and they're still Decks to Beat. Despite this combo having existed now for, what, two and a half fucking years in Legacy?

Counterbalance is one of the best cards printed for Legacy in recent memory. It does an enormous service to the format. There is no evidence and no argument that suggests it should be banned.

[DeathwingZERO]

Did you even read my argument?

Keep Counterbalance, BAN Top. That's what I've been saying this entire time.

Counterbalance is fair. It requires management to actually lock out anything, and it's color intensive. This means cheap blue decks are the only thing using them, obviously. It's also relatively easy to get rid of, if the player can't manipulate the topdeck at will.

I'm not saying that decks have terrible matchups against the decks playing Counterbalance, especially not the DtB section. I'm actually saying quite the opposite: Top itself gives the combo an unfair advantage against everything but the DtB section, because they have been tuned (or simply already built), to be resilient to it.

Very little else so far since CB/Top has been able to accomplish that.

[Nihil Credo]

I have this crazy idea that instead of banning stuff maybe they could print more spells over 3CC that are worth playing over their 1- and 2-CC counterparts. It wouldn't even need some crazy innovation, just put fifty Delve cards in the next block - there will be some friends for Tombstalker amongst them.

[Infinitium]

Is CB really keeping the format "honest" cmc-vise though? The only decks running a higher curve in the DtB section (most notably UWx 'Still, Faerie Stompy and Goblins) did so well before Coldsnap. Everything else still runs chiefly in the 1-3 cmc range and if need be splashes for solutions (read Grip) in the SB.

Also CB-Top doesn't compare to Chalice at all imo. Chalice forces players to play high-cc spells for it to work, it doesn't contitute a hardlock (unless it hits in multiples, which is rare since Chalice decks cannot run cantrips by definition) and most importantly it doesn't protect itself. Is it a good card? Yes. But unlike CB it doesn't win the game by itself and still plays by the rules in that it needs to be protected and followed up by some sort of clock in order to capitalize off it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Did you even read my argument?

Apparently better than you did.


Keep Counterbalance, BAN Top. That's what I've been saying this entire time.

Counterbalance is fair.

What the fuck is this "fair"? How do you measure it? Why do we want it? What does it mean?

"Fairness" is irrelevant. All that matters is whether the game is fun, challenging, and interesting. Counterbalance-Top, in my experience, contributes to this with the format, it doesn't detract from it.


It requires management to actually lock out anything, and it's color intensive. This means cheap blue decks are the only thing using them, obviously. It's also relatively easy to get rid of, if the player can't manipulate the topdeck at will.

ohhhh

You meant "unplayable".

It's "unplayable" by itself.


I'm not saying that decks have terrible matchups against the decks playing Counterbalance, especially not the DtB section. I'm actually saying quite the opposite: Top itself gives the combo an unfair advantage against everything but the DtB section, because they have been tuned (or simply already built), to be resilient to it.

This is the exact opposite of what you said, to whit;

"From what I see, the entire DtB section fits the criteria you are saying to avoid. So is a majority of the well placing portion of Established. They are all packed tight with cards just inside the 0-3cc range."

In fact, many decks outside the current DTB, such as whatever-Stompy, Ichorid, Survival, etc., have a much easier time dealing with CB-Top than, say, Dreadstill;

Which is also a point you're neglecting. To make CB-Top work consistently, you have to make your deck more vulnerable to opposing Chalices and CB-Tops and Deeds. Primarily CB-Top counters 0, 1, and 2 cc spells. In order to consistently find these with Top, they pack up the majority of the deck. Most CB-Top decks are at an enormous disadvantage against Chalice decks.


Very little else so far since CB/Top has been able to accomplish that.

There's absolutely no evidence to support what you're suggesting, and your arguments are self-contradictory. CB/Top is anything but dominating the metagame, and many different, interesting decks are getting a lot of mileage out of Top without the aid of Counterbalance. Why ruin that?

[Valtrix]

The only thing that bugs me about counterbalance is that the only "real" answer to it is krosan grip (besides playing a higher curve). Counter-top can counter CMC <= 2 spells that want to hit it and since decks that run it run other counters, the deck should be able to use real counterspells to take out the higher CMC removal spells.

That said, I don't think counter-top is played enough to dominate the format. It's a good control element indeed, but there's a lot of good control in legacy. I mean moon effects can do the same thing to a lot of decks too, and nobody's complaining to get them banned.

[Citrus-God]

That said, I don't think counter-top is played enough to dominate the format. It's a good control element indeed, but there's a lot of good control in legacy. I mean moon effects can do the same thing to a lot of decks too, and nobody's complaining to get them banned.

Because answering Blood Moon is easier. Just play Basics, EE, and other goodies and you're set. With Counterbalance, you have to reform your deck altogether as well as pack Krosan Grips in your SB.

Counterbalance, isn't fun because you cant do anything before hand to prevent yourself from losing to it and Counterbalance kills combo. It's hard to justify whether it being fair because Counterbalance attacks every deck.

[Volt]

I'm a couple weeks late to this party, but I'll throw my two cents in anyway. Counterbalance is fine, I guess. Sensei's Divining Top, on the other hand, should be banned if for no other reason than it slows down matches. It's really annoying to sit there while your opponent spends 2 minutes every single freaking turn masturb... urm, rearranging the top of his deck. Gawd, that pisses me off.

Of course, banning SDT would pretty much obsolete Counterbalance, which is just a bonus. If combo gets out of hand, then we'll cross that bridge, too. Ban LED or something.

[DeathwingZERO]

Alright, I took some time out to balance the pros and cons of both spells, and this is what I've come up with. If I left out anything, add in your own two cents.

Counterbalance:

Pros-
- Hits the format at large. Albeit, randomly and typically about as substantial as any other situational counterspells.
-The potential to hit multiple spells in a single game for a one time investment is nice.
- Plays fair, as long as the opponent isn't sitting on a deck that's 25-30% land, 35% 1cc, 35% 2cc, 0-5% other numbers. Usually it gets great mileage against those, and often can create CA.
- Can be pitched to FoW.

Cons-
- Requires double blue. Hard to do with anything splashing more than a secondary or third color, unless you bastardize the manabase to the point of being lucky to fit a single basic in.
- Requires the decks packing it to be very tight on their curves, opening themselves up to opposing Counterbalances, and not allowing as many options with card choices
- In nearly all cases, comes out turn two at the fastest, unless artificial acceleration is used. Very rare.
- Useless in multiples on table, unless just to protect one from spot removal
- Many, many, many ways to answer it, even after it hits the table. Does not require sticking to a single color to hate it.

Top:

Pros-
- Ridiculously cheap investment. Single cc, single digit activation, instant speed everything other than casting cost.
- Sees 3 turns ahead upon activation. Always.
- Allows to adjust said cards coming up.
- Can replace itself with the top card of the library, anytime (short of split-second responses)
- Nigh impossible to remove from play, and keep it that way. A single copy can go the distance in most games. This has potential to generate CA in itself.
-The only card capable of getting rid of one for good is Krosan Grip. This means anything not packing a green primary or splash is at a severe disadvantage against it
- Combined with shuffle effects allows for even more manipulation of topdeck
- Splashable. Any deck able to produce a single colorless and having potential to use it every turn can.
- Allows for Counterbalance to break from being a random soft lock.
- Potential for stalling games, though this more or less only benefits those who do it on purpose.

Cons-
- Not necessarily useless in multiples, but blah. Having a spare just means you can dig, drop it down 3 slots into the library, and shuffle it away for a clean slate of 3 new cards.
- Doesn't play nice with Chalice. Chalice at 1 anyway.
- Wastes time. Even when not abused, this can hinder matchups, being able to use it anytime mana is open.

And....that's it.

Counterbalance is not useless without Top. It's back to where it was intended to be. It can hit spells that fall into the deck's primary range. Unfortunately for Legacy, that's really where we like being right now, because of our need for speed to balance the different archetypes.

The format will not shift out of 0-2cc at large without a huge upheaval of critical spells either being added in, or removed from the format. While randomized hitting does not equal useless, I can see a point where people think it won't be used if it can't be consistent. While it might be collateral damage, losing it would hardly cause the format to shift dramatically.

So, taking a look at that list, if we were serious in actually attempting to dismantle the combo, which one seems more reasonable?

[andrew77]

Honestly counterbalance is pretty stupid but so are a ton of other cards in the format. Even with top it isn't format warping.

If you really want to ban something ban tarmogoyf. Goyf is the most format-warping card in legacy. All decks are affected by goyf. Nowadays you either play it, or have to answer it. If you are a noninteractive deck like combo it still affects you. It creates a stupidly fast clock for control decks that didn't exist before. The fact that threshold can just drop a goyf turn 2 and put a combo player on a 4-5 turn clock is dumb.

I really don't see any negative affects to removing goyf. It makes control a bit weaker, but that is all. It should slow down the format though and allow for a lot of new decks to pop up.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So, taking a look at that list, if we were serious in actually attempting to dismantle the combo, which one seems more reasonable?

WIFOM. Nice try, but I can see through your clever ruse.

What is there to suggest that it's reasonable to ban either part of the combo?

[Nydaeli]

They banned Top in Extended because of this interaction, but also because it was creating slow play problems. (see here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/2)) Is this equally problematic in Legacy?

[DeathScythe]

They banned Top in Extended because of this interaction, but also because it was creating slow play problems. (see here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/2)) Is this equally problematic in Legacy?

I remember several games here in the netherlands where a T8 game (note: game NOT match) took 90 minutes and came down to decking a player. This were both decks with CBT in them. Also plays like 'upkeep top, draw, use top, fetch, top' are very commun and take a stupid amount of time. Also one of the reason we like to call it sensaaaaaai top (saai is dutch for boring)

However, don't forget what happens IF CBT becomes banned (or a part i don't care about which), I'm pretty sure combo decks like solidairity (which is suffering a lot due to CBT) and TES will be very strong if not going to dominate the format. On a dutch forum we came to the conclusion that IF you want to kill the CBT you also have to do something about combo such as kicking LED out of the format aswell.

Just my 2 cents

[DeathwingZERO]

WIFOM. Nice try, but I can see through your clever ruse.

What is there to suggest that it's reasonable to ban either part of the combo?

What evidence is there to suggest that the combo isn't shaping the format in a much larger way than you are willing to admit?

Look at the DtB section. Every single deck there have options of either racing, matching, or answering CB/Top. Grip is the only way to do it consistently, and even that's not 100%.

Compare that to a good number of the Established section. Do a number of them have positive matchups vs decks packing the combo itself? What about decks in addition packing FoW, Daze, and more than likely Goyf or Tombstalker? Cards themselves don't have to be busted to be banned, they just have to allow specific decks to create unbalanced advantage.

Every major deck right now that does well has either Grip in the main/board, FoW/Daze, and CounterTop in the main, or speed and sideboard options. Yes, Grip is splash friendly, but so is Naturalize, Disenchant, etc. People are specifically going after Grip because they need to answer one of these pieces without opening themselves up to "honest" counters.

Now, what kinds of artifacts or enchantments do we have to worry about on a pretty usual level for a diverse and unknown metagame? Surely there's not a large number of Chalices or Trinispheres running around. Moat, Elephant Grass, etc aren't really that regularly seen, and are usually not in dedicated blue builds. Dreadnought? Sure, they show up, but you can StoP them, bounce them, block them, or steal them. Survival? Needle works pretty well against that, and is universal, and most Survival builds don't run blue, so most anti-enchantment spells work against them. Standstill? Can't answer it once it hits, just have to play around it.

So really, what's left? Why would we be forced to look specifically for Grip, and not any other options? It's a pretty narrow card, artifact or enchantment.

[citanul]

I don't feel that Counterbalance or Top should be banned. Counterbalance is decend but not the bringer of evil like some of you seem to believe.

About Top making games long. I play my own creation of the Rock with SDT, Loam and Fetchland. It's a board control deck so it kills rather slow yet I have never gone into time, not even against Standstill. The only issue is people staring at their 3 cards, thinking ages, making a decision and then forgetting what cards they put where.

[Arsenal]

people staring at their 3 cards, thinking ages, making a decision and then forgetting what cards they put where.

This is true to the highest degree. I cannot tell you how many times people just stare at their cards, even in game 3, like it's the first time they've ever seen them. Game decisions are important, and you shouldn't rush, but at the same time, it's really the player who makes the game long, not Top itself.

[kilukru]

This discussion remind me alot of the "all deck that dosnt run goblin lackey need at least 8 turn 1 answer to it so let's ban lackey" from a couple years ago.

These Cards, lackey, Goyf, Counter-top dosnt break format, they shape it! Lackey made for a very fast do or die format, Goyf slowed thing down to a middle range format and now Cb-top is making the format a mix of super fast vs relatively slow deck. And since we where in a middle range era due to goyf most deck got to change and addapt.

The argument that most T8 deck either run, race or have solution to cb-top is bogus, yeah they do, like not long ago all deck in T8 either ran or had solution for tamo(and still does) and before that all deck in T8 either ran or had solution for lackey etc... Top deck either use or can defeat top strategy curently in use, thats call metagame, and if you dont take it in consideration, good luck making the T8.

Cb-Top is actully great for the format, it made the format move forward like Goyf did, and cb-top also made peaople forget about goyf, a couple month back all these discussion would have been about banning goyf.

When something really broken come in the format, usuly there's no need for discussion to determine if it need to be banned, take flash for instance, was there any doubth that the card needed to go? Cb-Top is a 2 card combo that dosnt win game and can be raced or can be hated out bye almost any decks.

The only argument that could stan for a ban is : the combination cb-top slow games a lot! meaning that alot of game go to time, and more often than ever this will play against the player playing it since he will end up with draws instead of wins. And those draws can severly cut his chance of making the T8 in a lot of tourney.

[DeathScythe]

The fact that you might go to time is for the majority of the (really competative) playerbase irrelevent, they just want to play THE deck in the format without regards of the possiblity of going to time. If the best deck, let's say for example it's threshold (not saying it is), runs it people who really wanty to win will play that deck.

This also happened during the PTQ cycle for valencia, this was block constructed time spiral. The best deck in that format was UB controle and was retardedly slow (even slower than stax and landstill if you know what I mean) but it was THE deck. The majority of the players played this deck knowing they could/would go into time but they didn't care. After judging a few PTQs I saw a large amount of games even end up in a 0-0-1 after the 50 minute timer.

To make a long story short: if people know the best (or one fo the best) deck in the format is freaking slow it won't stop them from playing it if they want to go for the win.

[Volt]

They banned Top in Extended because of this interaction, but also because it was creating slow play problems. (see here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/2)) Is this equally problematic in Legacy?

I'm not sure if it's equally problematic, but it's problematic. Top really slows games down. It's damn annoying to sit there while your opponent activates Top, looks at the 3 cards, thinks, thinks, puts the cards back, breaks a fetchland, searches library for land, shuffles, cuts, activates Top again.... EVERY FREAKING TURN.

[Nihil Credo]

Look at the DtB section. Every single deck there have options of either racing, matching, or answering CB/Top.

[...]

Every major deck right now that does well has either Grip in the main/board, FoW/Daze, and CounterTop in the main, or speed and sideboard options.

Did you look at the DtB forum? Landstill is still DtB without running or racing CounterTop, and half of its list have no access to Grip. Vial Goblins has nine Top 8s, five of which from non-green lists.

[Forbiddian]

What evidence is there to suggest that the combo isn't shaping the format in a much larger way than you are willing to admit?

Look at the DtB section. Every single deck there have options of either racing, matching, or answering CB/Top. Grip is the only way to do it consistently, and even that's not 100%.


Look at the DtB section. Every single deck there have [sic] options of either racing, matching, or answering Goblins.

Every single deck have options of either racing, matching, or answering TES.

Every single deck have options of either racing, matching, or answering Thresh.


These things are just part of the format. Obviously anything PREVALENT will have to be answered by your deck if you expect your deck to do well. PREVALENT, though, doesn't mean it's IMBALANCED.

Rather than throw around the ban stick (even people who claim that CB/Top is imbalanced can probably agree to this lesser suggestion -- I think CB/Top is fine, but we'll go from there), Wizards should print card or cards that answer CB/Top in colors other than green.

Preferably White (to fix the color wheel, why the fuck does Green get all the best disenchants now... Seal of Primordium = Seal of Cleansing, Naturalize = Disenchant, now Krosan Grip is untouched as the dominant removal spell).

(3/W)(W) Destroy Target Enchantment.

Reprint Grip in white, even.


Banning CB/Top is really drastic. It's a balanced card, maybe too time consuming, but within the balance requirements of MTG. Everyone pays attention to it, but it's not to the point where everyone has given up and says, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." Even with the recent TES popularity which really pushed CB/Top into the limelight by making it a bomb against a higher percentage of the dissenting metagame, very few decks actually run CB/Top.

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Ligamagic+Legacy+29%2F12 (0 decks in the top 4)
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Ligamagic+Legacy+23%2F12 (2 decks in the top 4)
http://www.deckcheck.net/format.php?format=Legacy (1 deck in the Top 8)
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=2%BA+Torneo+Legacy+Casa+da+Xuventude+Ourense (1 deck in the Top 8)

Total: 4 decks in the top 24 of the recent tournaments. Uh, ok, that's obviously not distorting the format or at the very least players think that it's not distorting the format, so they're not jumping on the bandwagon.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Look at the DtB section. Every single deck there have options of either racing, matching, or answering CB/Top. Grip is the only way to do it consistently, and even that's not 100%.

It becomes increasingly obvious to me that you don't desire to be taken seriously.

Your argument is absurd, and basically boils down to, "If you sit by and do nothing, you'll lose to Counter-Top".

As it so happens, this is also true of Ivory Tower and Grizzly Bear.

Play answers or better threats. This isn't a problem unique to CB-Top; it pervades the game of Magic.

[Tacosnape]

As it so happens, this is also true of Ivory Tower and Grizzly Bear.

Actually, this isn't true. Ivory Tower can't ever kill you until Xenic Poltergeist hits the table. Then it's on like butter on a dinner roll.

That said, yeah, CB/Top isn't all that nuts. It's a two-card combination that doesn't win the game.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you're incapable of mounting a greater threat than a Grizzly Bear, you will never beat Ivory Tower. Does this make Ivory Tower broken? No.

It's not enough to say that a card has an impact on the game, which is all that Deathwing has actually said. That impact must be in some way unbalanced or make the game less interesting.

[Volt]

That said, yeah, CB/Top isn't all that nuts. It's a two-card combination that doesn't win the game.

But it does soak up time and drag matches out. Top was banned in Extended, largely for that reason.

[Kadaj]

But it does soak up time and drag matches out. Top was banned in Extended, largely for that reason.

I imagine the fact that Legacy is a faster format than Extended is/was when Top was initially banned will keep this problem from becoming too prevalent.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Your argument is absurd, and basically boils down to, "If you sit by and do nothing, you'll lose to Counter-Top".

As it so happens, this is also true of Ivory Tower and Grizzly Bear.


This is a completely absurd comparison, as I'm sure you were going for. The only problem is that counter-top only has 1 card that can kill it consistantly (k-grip), and even this gets blind countered on occasion. I think everyone is right in saying that it doesn't need to be banned as long as there is more of a reason to be afraid of running it. Make a creature like Burning-Tree Shaman or Taurean Mauler for triggered abilities or make a k-grip white. Comparing this to anything else is ridiculous because there are at least 1,000 answers to Grizzly Bear and 500 to Ivory Tower.

Also, I don't really care either way, but I would rather SDT got banned because I'm the kind of person who likes to find ways to use cards like counterbalance in not completely broken ways.

I agree with people who say SDT is too good, a card that costs 1 and makes card quality go through the roof when mixed with fetching. Yes, brainstorm does the same thing, but not every time you crack a fetch land. For 1 Fetch and 2 mana you get to look through 6 cards of your deck, looking for a specific answer, and then draw that answer on the exact same turn. Even mystical tutors don't allow the ridiculousness of having your answer and eating it too.

I agree that something needs to be done to the SDT counterbalance combo, the "soft lock" it creates isn't fair at all. It's not like a CotV where no one gets to play their 1 costing spells, it's a 1 way lock. In the past you would have to use something like Erayu + cantrips + 0 cost artifacts to get something even close to this, but to get it in a 3 mana package where each card is a bomb on its own is ridiculous. People are saying that this stops goyf for some reason, but 90% of the decks that use it run goyfs... it just stops the other player's goyfs. One of the worst parts is it stops the opponent's cantripping into their answer to it.

I think everyone would be fine with it if they had more than a 1 card answer. Thresh decks and the like run 3cc cards just to stop the deeds and other solutions now. Playing a EE at 4 and popping it should not be the answer to something that is so easily and effectively used.

[georgjorge]

I think everyone would be fine with it if they had more than a 1 card answer. Thresh decks and the like run 3cc cards just to stop the deeds and other solutions now.

Now this is stretching it a bit...They might run 3-4 cards for three mana, but you seem to assume they will always have the right card to stop you in their top three cards - 1cc for your Swords, 2cc for your Naturalize, or 3cc for your Deed. CBalance + Top will not always counter a 2cc spell, and much less so a 3cc. The odds are definitely in your favor for resolving Deed against CBalance.

Also, why aren't you advocating banning Chalice ? At two, it comes down about the time CBalance + Top is assembled (with a Tomb or City), is only one card, and shuts off a good deal of many decks as well.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Every deck that has the option runs 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder before thinking about Top. Banning Top is saying the format is and should be blue's alone.

And the argument that nothing but Krosan Grip ever kills CB is the argument that Extirpate is good; based on absurdly optimistic speculation. I've killed Counterbalance plenty of times with 2-4 cc spells that were not Krosan Grip. They can't always have a 0-, 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4- cc card on top of their deck for multiple reasons.

[Forbiddian]

Every deck that has the option runs 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder before thinking about Top. Banning Top is saying the format is and should be blue's alone.

And the argument that nothing but Krosan Grip ever kills CB is the argument that Extirpate is good; based on absurdly optimistic speculation. I've killed Counterbalance plenty of times with 2-4 cc spells that were not Krosan Grip. They can't always have a 0-, 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4- cc card on top of their deck for multiple reasons.

I don't see any obvious flaws with this logic. O.o.


Try a little harder, please. Even people like me who agree with your premise (that CT is fine) know you're just being ridiculous when you claim Top is the only thing keeping four colors viable. It's the only thing keeping Quinn from slipping to tier 3, but that's beside the point. I can name a dozen non-blue decks that would actually probably benefit from Top being gone.

What are you saying with the extirpate reference? It's optimistic not to rely on Disenchant to deal with Counterbalance Top? I think it's optimistic to think that Disenchant can consistently deal with CB/Top. It happens sometimes (4cc always lands and 3 often lands, it's just disenchants that people usually can't get to stick). I'm sure as hell not going to put a few Naturalize in the sideboard thinking that's good enough vs. CB. Seems really optimistic to me to assume you don't need KGrip (or at least to bend to 3CC).

In general, just try harder. Or better yet, try a different angle. Pretty much everyone agrees that banning Top or CB would be dumb. If they don't, they've read your arguments and don't need you rehashing them (and making them so ridiculous that nobody could take you seriously).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Okay, correction;

There are four categories of non-blue decks in Legacy.

1) Aggro decks.

2) Storm-combo.

3) Chalice decks.

4a) Decks that play Top
4b) Decks that should play Top but don't realize it.

If you disagree with this premise, You Are Wrong (tm).

And Chalice and Storm decks are already arguably stronger when they add blue.

Basically you'd have Goblins and Ichorid, except CB being banned eliminates a large reason to play those decks.


Pretty much everyone agrees that banning Top or CB would be dumb.

Sadly, they don't do this.


If they don't, they've read your arguments and don't need you rehashing them (and making them so ridiculous that nobody could take you seriously).

No, you.


On a sidenote, ironically, a better way to nerf the prevalence of blue would be to ban Tarmogoyf, which has actually made decks with green as a primary color (like Survival Advantage) weaker.

[DeathwingZERO]

Every deck that has the option runs 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder before thinking about Top. Banning Top is saying the format is and should be blue's alone.

Really? I know that you've been in the MUC thread, so you obviously have to know that deck alone calls BS on you, sir. That is the epitome of blue, and it's trends haven't made it a consistent DtB. All the while, Survival, Aggro Loam, Ichorid, Rock, Belcher, Enchantress, Sui-variants, Stax variants, and many other archetypes that are commonly played have all seen DtB status in the meantime, and aren't blue. Your argument is null and void, sir.

Brainstorm is not an auto-include in everything blue. Neither is Ponder. Decks that want raw CA rather than cantrip effects will not use cards that are considered dead, which is exactly what BS and Ponder will fall under. Given, decks like MUC aren't nearly as fast as decks that cantrip, but that's because of the format being faster, not things like Stroke, Fact and others being too slow. Consider this anomaly caused in portion by the Tarmogoyf effect.

And in most cases like MUC, Top would fit better than BS or Ponder because it's not situational, unlike the other two. Being able to continuously dig down is much better than a one shot, and the card can respond to Deed, Disk and Keg, so it can avoid destruction effects, even played by it's own deck. This has actually crossed my mind on several occasions, as I have been considering testing Top in my board-control MUC build. Being three turns ahead of your opponent on card quality as soon as it lands is just that good.

But the very nature of cheap cantrip and topdeck manipulation is blue, is it not? If that's the case, why not ban Top on the principle alone that it's allowing non-blue decks to abuse a function that works just as good, if not better, than most of blue's other options? Artifacts aren't supposed to be better at doing a job than the color they mime, correct?

It's inclusion in Tooth and Nail (which probably put it on consideration for banning in Standard, had Tooth not already been on the verge of rotating), many Extended lists, and interactions with Counterbalance should lead anybody to believe the card is dangerous wherever it's legal. The only drawback this card honestly has is that it can't be pitched to FoW.

How is any of this considered balanced?

EDIT: And to be fair, leaving CB/Top in is really saying that the format should stay green, or stay combo. This might be the case even if it's gone, as Goyf really has sped up the format on it's own. But that is a discussion that has already happened many times now.

Given the choice, however........which of the three cards would you suggest gets more serious attention at the chopping block, IBA?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Just because a blue deck doesn't run Brainstorm/Ponder, doesn't mean that the format wouldn't become more blue based with the banning of Top. They're unrelated statements.

[DeathwingZERO]

Just because a blue deck doesn't run Brainstorm/Ponder, doesn't mean that the format wouldn't become more blue based with the banning of Top. They're unrelated statements.

How exactly does our format get more blue than it is? I'm seeing multiple lists of Thresh, Landstill, and Dreadstill in the DtB forum. There's also Team America, a sui-black list splashing green and blue.

The only thing we have left that would be more blue than that is Solidarity and dedicated MUC lists, or monoblue Stax. All three of these lists are already out there, they just can't do anything about Goyf and CounterTop combined.

MUC and Stax are both decks that typically don't pack Brainstorm and Ponder. Solidarity does because they are great storm combo cards.

The best additions of blue to the format are not Brainstorm and Ponder. They are actually Daze and FoW. There's literally no lists that use blue with enough to support etiher that don't run either one of them, or both.

So if we want to say the format is going to be more blue than it is (without one of the strongest combos blue has had in a while, mind you), enlighten me on how that's going to happen. We're running out of splashes for Landstill and Thresh, and MUC simply doesn't have speed on it's side.

EDIT: Let me put it simply.

If our format was going to become more blue based because of Top being gone, how is it going to happen without those blue decks needing to take advantage of the ridiculous power of other splashes, while not overstepping the capabilities of what we have already?

And for part two, why would any of these non Thresh, Landstill, Dreadstill and U/x dedicated control lists handle a format that has a ridiculously large amount of aggro, combo, and non-blue control lists running around?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I'm not saying that the format would become more or less blue based, I'm stating that your argument for how MUC doesn't use Brainstorm/Ponder is irrelevant. It doesn't prove how this hypothetical format would or would not be more monopolized by blue, as IBA puts it.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Given the choice, however........which of the three cards would you suggest gets more serious attention at the chopping block, IBA?
Why are we talking about banning anything at all? The format is great, both from the perspective of a player and a designer, and there is no evidence to suggest that anything needs to be fucking banned.

Why the hell is anyone taking this topic seriously?
Brainstorm is not an auto-include in everything blue.
The best additions of blue to the format are not Brainstorm and Ponder. They are actually Daze and FoW.
I'm sorry, but I have to single out these quotes.

Based on its power level, Brainstorm is by far the best candidate in the format for banning, yet I almost never hear people clamoring for that to happen, and I certainly don't think that it should. Obviously Brainstorm's effect on games is more subtle than Counterbalance's, and a playset of Brainstorms is a lot cheaper than a playset of Tarmogoyfs, but I still think that the relative scarcity of "Ban Brainstorm!" bandwagons is a good indicator that everything is fine as it is.

And yes, Top is sort of comparable to Brainstorm, but it costs many times as much mana, and usually several turns, to generate a similar effect. The two cards are barely in the same league, so calling for the weaker one to be banned (based on what? time restraints?) while ignoring the other is ridiculous.

[DeathwingZERO]

Brainstorm's power level is entirely based on what it gets you. That's what banned it in Vintage, alongside Ponder and Merchant Scroll. The only deck we have in this format that even comes close to it in terms of one-shot abuse is storm combo, most notably TES/ANT builds. Otherwise, it improves the card quality of your hand one time, and goes away.

If we had more powerful decks chalked full of 1 ofs, I'd agree with you. But taking away Brainstorm would be very, very subtle changes compared to taking away FoW. If you ditch the turn zero counter potential, THEN we will see more blue, because everyone needs to pack Daze, Force Spike, and Spell Snare for the on the play necessity to stall storm and other fast combo, notably Ichorid. This also would cause a draw to more black besed decks, for Leyline inclusion.

Hell, even Extended never saw a reason to ban Brainstorm through it's entire print running, and that's a great format to look for indications of power level issues within single cards.

Blue is the ever preserving color of balance, and our format proves it. In order to keep up with the speed, we thrive on faster protection. Not calling them the MVP of the format is ill advised, at best. Without Force, we could easily consider this Vintage light, as the format's clock would effectively be turn two.

Personally, I think the eventual shift away from CounterTop is inevitable, or one piece will eventually get banned, because it will define the format alongside Goyf. Basically meaning Thresh will define the format. But if I'm given a choice for any particular card in this format to go, it'll be Top, and for many more reasons than any other card right now has.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Eh.

If you banned LED, there'd really be no argument left that Force is the only thing holding the format in check.

I'm kind of curious as to why LED hasn't been banned already, actually. It and Tarmogoyf are the only cards I'd really think about banning, as they're the only cards that are arguably holding back more possibilities than they're creating on a large scale.

[Bryant Cook]

Eh.

If you banned LED, there'd really be no argument left that Force is the only thing holding the format in check.

I'm kind of curious as to why LED hasn't been banned already, actually. It and Tarmogoyf are the only cards I'd really think about banning, as they're the only cards that are arguably holding back more possibilities than they're creating on a large scale.

Shut up, just shut up before you're grounded mister.

[DeathwingZERO]

I am honestly curious what would happen if Goyf and LED were banned.

I believe Goblins would show up more again. Possibly more sui-variants will come out, as they don't have to worry about running into the giant green wall. Same with stompy lists. We may actually see more Stax/alternate lock variants, as they no longer have to deal with answering big bad Goyf if it slips through. Thresh lists packing it would go back to Werebear.

I'm uncertain if LED being kept from combo deck's hands would honestly slow them down that much though. Through testing I've still determined LEDless Ichorid to have the same potential clock, just not as consistent turn ones. TES/ANT would be hit, alongside Doomsday lists needing them. But has anybody tested any of these lists to determine if losing them really slows down their average clock, or just takes away their all-in avenues of winning?

I personally would think it would make for a great experiment.

[Hummingbird TG]

I am honestly curious what would happen if Goyf and LED were banned.

I believe Goblins would show up more again. Possibly more sui-variants will come out, as they don't have to worry about running into the giant green wall. Same with stompy lists. We may actually see more Stax/alternate lock variants, as they no longer have to deal with answering big bad Goyf if it slips through. Thresh lists packing it would go back to Werebear.

Then Goblins would become top deck again, and everyone would be clamoring to ban lackey.

[Volt]

If Legacy were a serious format that Wizards actually supported and held events for, Top would eventually be banned for the same reasons it was banned in Extended.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh come off it. With the exception of Flash, Wizards hasn't admitted a banning was for power reasons in a newer format since Skullclamp. They don't like to admit they make mistakes, but Top-CB was just too powerful for the new Extended. That's why it wasn't banned before; previously there was a tension in the format between Deed and CB-Top, but they assumed with the former's absence the latter would dominate.

Considering how closely judges watch for stalling at top level events, I'm not buying the storyline.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Brainstorm's power level is entirely based on what it gets you. That's what banned it in Vintage, alongside Ponder and Merchant Scroll. The only deck we have in this format that even comes close to it in terms of one-shot abuse is storm combo, most notably TES/ANT builds. Otherwise, it improves the card quality of your hand one time, and goes away.
This is specious reasoning. You could say that the power level of Ancestral Recall is "based on what it gets you," as well, but it is still absurdly powerful in the context of any given format. Incidentally, Sensei's Divining Top is subject to the same "dependency."

If we had more powerful decks chalked full of 1 ofs, I'd agree with you. But taking away Brainstorm would be very, very subtle changes compared to taking away FoW. If you ditch the turn zero counter potential, THEN we will see more blue, because everyone needs to pack Daze, Force Spike, and Spell Snare for the on the play necessity to stall storm and other fast combo, notably Ichorid. This also would cause a draw to more black besed decks, for Leyline inclusion.

Hell, even Extended never saw a reason to ban Brainstorm through it's entire print running, and that's a great format to look for indications of power level issues within single cards.

Blue is the ever preserving color of balance, and our format proves it. In order to keep up with the speed, we thrive on faster protection. Not calling them the MVP of the format is ill advised, at best. Without Force, we could easily consider this Vintage light, as the format's clock would effectively be turn two.
Expounding on Force of Will and its impact on the format isn't really relevant to the point I was trying to make. To restate, Brainstorm is the most powerful card in Legacy, relative to its cost, which is why it deserves to be at the forefront of any discussion about bannings. However, it should not be banned, and nor should anything else.

You are right in that Force of Will has a profound impact on the metagame, and that its presence is important in keeping things balanced. If that is what you define as the format's "MVP," then you are right about that, as well. However, Force is fundamentally a much fairer card than Brainstorm, and is nowhere near as close to being banned.

Personally, I think the eventual shift away from CounterTop is inevitable, or one piece will eventually get banned, because it will define the format alongside Goyf. Basically meaning Thresh will define the format. But if I'm given a choice for any particular card in this format to go, it'll be Top, and for many more reasons than any other card right now has.
Are you saying that Counterbalance is showing up in an unhealthy amount now, or that it is underplayed? If either case is true, what is going to cause the format to shift away from such a dominant combination? None of this makes much sense.

As for Top, I simply cannot understand how you could see the card as broken, and not see Brainstorm as moreso.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Sometimes when I think about Alix Hatfield, I touch myself.

True story.

[DeathwingZERO]

Are you saying that Counterbalance is showing up in an unhealthy amount now, or that it is underplayed? If either case is true, what is going to cause the format to shift away from such a dominant combination? None of this makes much sense.

As for Top, I simply cannot understand how you could see the card as broken, and not see Brainstorm as moreso.

I'd say that it's going to be noticeably unhealthy very soon, if the standings of the DtB forum is any indication. More decks now are packing it than just Thresh, and they are doing so because in order to stay in these standings, they have to use it or beat it. The shift I predict will be decks attempting to get out of the 0-2cc range, but we need something to push that, either a new deck or new cards coming out.

And as far as Brainstorm vs Top, if Brainstorm worked every turn, and was colorless, I would agree. But it doesn't, it's not, and the fact there's only four per deck means at most you have four chances to play it. This is the major difference, and frankly the only one that matters. Brainstorm does not constantly keep you ahead of your opponent, Top does it for nearly nothing.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'd say that it's going to be noticeably unhealthy very soon, if the standings of the DtB forum is any indication. More decks now are packing it than just Thresh, and they are doing so because in order to stay in these standings, they have to use it or beat it.

Dreadstill.

Dreadstill is the only deck besides Thresh packing it in the DtB forum.

There's nothing to suggest that what you're saying should be taken seriously.

[DeathwingZERO]

Dreadstill.

Dreadstill is the only deck besides Thresh packing it in the DtB forum.

There's nothing to suggest that what you're saying should be taken seriously.

Are you so shortsighted as to forget ITF? Really? I know you hate the deck and all, but you have to at least acknowledge it hit DtB status, and barely fell out of it this month.

Also, don't forget little blue men/tempo lists, and of course our very own Epic Painter.

I'm not saying that only this month had newcomers packing it, nor should I. The DtB section revolves monthly, and with my arguments, I've actually been factoring the past 6 months or so of play, seeing as that's where the numbers have started showing this trend.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, that card's sure been flitting in and out of the DTB.

So has Dread Return.

Do you have a point?

[chokin]

You can basically skip my whole post and just read: "beat it or join it"

If CB is considered "too good" when coupled with Top and a large amount of 1-2cc spells in your deck, doesn't the logical answer be to play more things outside of that range or play your own CB? Kinda like a "If you can't beat them, join them" idea.

Kinda like how Blood Moon and Magus punished a lot of decks for having no basics or too few to function if the Moon hit early on. Decks like Thresh started packing more basic lands and some even started using Moon at one point to punish decks that didn't adapt, which is a perfect example of beat it or join it.

There are more answers to CB than just Krosan Grip. If you play 2 or more colors (which there is a good chance of), there's always EE, which can be played with extra mana to dodge the flips. Most of the decks that play CB don't have many or any 3cc cards or 4cc cards (5cc is FoW and every deck with CB runs FoW I'm 99% sure). There are so many answers to CB that are within most decks color ranges and most likely reasonable mana costs. Even monocolored decks can stall it out or beat it. Black has discard, Red has REB/Pyroblast, Green has Grip, White has Disenchant/Seal, Blue has Wipe Away. Obviously some of those options are better than others (discard only stalls, Disenchant and Seal both can be countered, Wipe Away is temporary) but oh well.

Another answer is to play things that are outside of the 1cc and 2cc range. Ichorid manages to play very few spells at all. The Stompy decks pretty much skip 1 and 2 altogether and go straight to 3, 4, 5. Aggro Loam has a lot of 3cc win conditions. Goblins has many varying costs for their creatures.

I don't think that CB is anymore unfair or unfun as playing against decks packing Trinisphere/CotV. It also doesn't feel as incredibly unfun when decks Wasteland lock you or play a Blood Moon or Magus when you have very few basics. But the obvious answer to me is to either play around it (beat it) or use a similar strategy if it's so damn good (join it).

[FoolofaTook]

Eh.

If you banned LED, there'd really be no argument left that Force is the only thing holding the format in check.

I'm kind of curious as to why LED hasn't been banned already, actually. It and Tarmogoyf are the only cards I'd really think about banning, as they're the only cards that are arguably holding back more possibilities than they're creating on a large scale.

Banning LED would be a huge blow to storm-based combo and would hurt Ichorid and a few other decks that depend on getting things into the graveyard early. Given that these decks aren't exactly tearing up the meta as it is I'm curious as to why you think LED should be banned?

Are there great LED-based decks that aren't currently being designed or played much if they have been designed already?

I do not see any card currently in play in the Legacy meta that needs to be banned based on power and very few that might potentially be banned as format warping. LED is certainly not in the latter case and I just have a hard time seeing it being in the former, given that decks with LED in them are not winning tournaments in any significant numbers.

[Deep6er]

I'm pretty damn sure that banning Tarmogoyf and Lion's Eye Diamond would just set the format back to pre-Flash days.

Solidarity, Goblins, and Threshold. That's it. Solidarity keeps the control decks down, while Goblins beats the shitty aggro-control decks and Threshold wins through tempo and powerful (but cheap) cards.

That's what would happen. Losing Lion's Eye Diamond kills the decks that help to keep Goblins down (Storm combo, Ichorid could be a pain too), and losing Tarmogoyf means Threshold loses it's clock to Solidarity. Plus, the other combo decks that gave Solidarity issues would be gone (TES and Ichorid).

Do you really want to set the format back a year? It's not like it's a return to "healthy". It's just a setback. The descriptions for "healthy" and "fun" are so incredibly subjective that it's irrelevant to a true discussion. Because you know what? I think the format is both "healthy" and "fun". There. Under the democratic system, I've canceled out your vote.

Funny story though, none of this is terribly relevant. Since we haven't been able to accurately predict any of the bannings with absolute certainty (even Flash was more of a "hope to God" kind of thing), I posit that topics like this are nothing more than verbal masturbation. Woolgathering. Idle speculation. There is no value to such a conversation because we are not the ones with the power to affect change.

Therefore, instead of discussing how "broken" or "fair" we think certain cards are, it would be more valuable to discuss those cards as they pertain to the Legacy Format.

How do we abuse them?
What deck abuses them best?
How should we build around them?
What are the best answers to them?
What decks naturally foil those cards?
What are the weaknesses of those decks?

All I'm trying to say is that I think we are being unnecessarily wasteful in this discussion. I'd like for us to try to redirect our energies into a topic that is more valuable.

Obviously, all of these appeals fail. I know that. I'm not the first one to walk into a conversation calling for an end to the discussion. I just think this particular discussion holds no true value and that it does nothing except to rile up the active posters contributing to this thread.

Also, it's "chock full" not "chalk full". As in, full of <something>, not full of chalk. I've seen that mistake made so many times (not necessarily in this thread), and it's just a really irritating one. I felt like clarifying that.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Rabid Wombat would go back to beating two thirds the meta? Sign me up.

No, but seriously, I think you're being overly pessimistic. I think a number of factors would prevent the format from reverting. First and foremost;

1) A fair number of new cards have been printed since Planar Chaos, which was the last set before the release of Flash-Hulk and then Tarmogoyf. Individual cards; Thoughtseize, Ponder, Tombstalker, Jund Charm, Ad Nauseum; Wild Nacatal and Wooly Thoctor. Rhox War Monk; there's actually been a whole host of creatures printed in the past six sets that might've had a bigger impact on Legacy but for their inferiority to Tarmogoyf. And even Planar Chaos really didn't get tested much before the format was inverted, so that's really seven sets (soon to be eight) that have been added since then. Particular synergies have been added; Goblins got a couple cards from Lorwyn block, but Elves and Faeries gained much more. No tribal creature deck has really been very viable in Legacy lately; in a slightly slower format, might one of these two rival or even replace Goblins? We don't know because we haven't had the chance to see.

Each new card has the potential to interact with any given other card, which means that change is exponential to the cardpool. Dreadstill, ANT, Team America, Mighty Quinn only use a couple new cards but are completely different decks from those which existed before. Which brings us to the next point;

2) We've developed new technology since then. Above and beyond what new cards were added. Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid have evolved, Aggro-Loam, Landstill, Fairy or Dragon Stompy. Legacy has ten times the card pool but a thousand times the deck potential of a format like Standard. This takes time to crack. I don't think the format would ever go back to days of three-deck dominance unless it were to be destroyed again and had to be rebuilt, ala the list separations.

[Volt]

I've never been a big fan of the "You're never going to change anything so you might as well just shut up" argument. I prefer to think that if a bunch of people refuse to "just shut up," they might affect some sort of change, eventually. But then, maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic.

Regarding Top... I'll concede the point. Let it stay, I guess. Whatever. I just find the card to be really annoying. Btw, I think it's pretty easy to make the argument that it's more powerful than Brainstorm. Not on the first activation. Maybe not on the 2nd activation. But by the time you've activated that bad boy 3 times, things are starting to get ridiculous.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I've never been a big fan of the "You're never going to change anything so you might as well just shut up" argument. I prefer to think that if a bunch of people refuse to "just shut up," they might affect some sort of change, eventually. But then, maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic.

Regarding Top... I'll concede the point. Let it stay, I guess. Whatever. I just find the card to be really annoying. Btw, I think it's pretty easy to make the argument that it's more powerful than Brainstorm. Not on the first activation. Maybe not on the 2nd activation. But by the time you've activated that bad boy 3 times, things are starting to get ridiculous.

But speed also determines power. Power is not determined by power alone or Darksteel Reactor would be the best card in the game.

[Volt]

But speed also determines power. Power is not determined by power alone or Darksteel Reactor would be the best card in the game.

Sure, sure, Top is a turn slower than Brainstorm. I think it more than makes up for it over the course of a game.

[adrieng]

I really don't think that top should be banned. Actually I think ad nauseum or led is the next card that should be banned. The deck is really broken and only counterbalance can stop it. Nowadays decks that doesn't play top will have a hard time autolosing game one against both ichorid and ad nauseum. The problem is that your side will need 8 cards for ichorid and 8 cards for ad nauseum. The other thing is that not a lot of people plays it.
I don't think goyf should be banned. Even if all decks packs it, lot of decks have a solution to it. The elf survival build is really impressive, it has all the elements to become a deck to beat but the fact that it scoops to combo. It beats gob threshold even aggro loam with his 7 DD has problems at beating it.
Give it a try !

[DeathwingZERO]

The lacking of LED does nothing for the overall speed of the Ichorid builds. You hamper their ability to go off turn one every now and then, and slow them to turn 2.5 instead of turn 2. However, they tend to have more control over what they want to do.

Instead of randomly exploding, they can go to things like Street Wraith, more Ichorid recursions, and more stable manabases and draw/discard potentials. I know this, because that's what I've done already, seeing as I hate LED in combo decks that don't need all-in strategy to win.

However, it might not be good for TES/ANT. I can't back that up, because I haven't had months to test what it's lack of impact would be on the decks. I assume they would lose the ability to chain Infernal Tutor + LED, and it'd make for less optimal IGG stacking, but it might not disrupt the overall gameplan of disrupt + 10 spells to the dome.

While we do know there's a ton of potential for AN, it also is not busted, yet. We won't know that until we see storm decks putting up way more numbers. A number of people were saying that Ichorid was being too harmful to the format, and it got hated out to the point it dropped off the radar. There's a good chance the same can be said for storm, perhaps.

[FoolofaTook]

We're way off topic here. CounterTop is actually used in decks that are played often enough to win tourneys. LED is not. Some of the decks LED is used in are very, very good but none of them (literally) is played often enough to become a threat to the meta and the decks like Ichorid that are played often don't win much.

[Jaiminho]

ANT (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Ad+Nauseam+Storm&format=Legacy) and TES (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=The+Epic+Storm&format=Legacy). Seems like being a DTW is not enough.

[DeathScythe]

We're way off topic here. CounterTop is actually used in decks that are played often enough to win tourneys. LED is not. Some of the decks LED is used in are very, very good but none of them (literally) is played often enough to become a threat to the meta and the decks like Ichorid that are played often don't win much.

These dominated stats aren't here BECAUSE we still got CBtop in the format, it's pretty much the best thing against TES and AnT as it can't be stopped by their protective duress or chant. If we lose CBtop TES, AnT and even solidairity will most probably have a dominant possition over the format.

[FoolofaTook]

ANT (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Ad+Nauseam+Storm&format=Legacy) and TES (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=The+Epic+Storm&format=Legacy). Seems like being a DTW is not enough.

TES is a great deck. In no way format warping but a great deck.

If ANT became a format warping deck then Ad Nauseum would get banned not LED. You ban the thing that causes a broken deck not the things that contribute after the deck has gone broken.

[DeathwingZERO]

Agreed. TES has been around roughly as long as CB/Top, but has been inconsistent on it's DtB status before and while CB/Top has been major maindeck material.

If AN's potential is busted, however, it'll get hit. It's only drawback is it's casting cost, otherwise it's a one card engine for storm.

[freakish777]

But speed also determines power. Power is not determined by power alone or Darksteel Reactor would be the best card in the game.

If you haven't (and this isn't directed at IBA, it's a plural you) read my definition (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9280) of power in Magic, I suggest you do so.

In Physics, Power (average) = Work / change in Time.

In Magic, Time can be measured by the number of turns (this could also involve set up), and "Work" can be measured as "amount of cards involved in hand (this could involve set up, for instance you need to set up Predict with another card usually) plus mana spent, plus number of cards involved in your deck, plus all other costs (life, etc)."

Really the only part missing is the conversion function between mana and cards (as well as mana and cards in deck, mana and life, etc, basically what is 1 unit of work in Magic and how do various costs convert into that unit), ie, given two combo decks, one which requires 2 cards, and one which requires 3 cards, how much less mana does the 3 card combo have to be in order to be as good as the 2 card combo. With that piece "solved" it would become very easy to look at a combo deck and immediately dismiss it, or immediately start trying to build the best version of it. The equation is applicable to non-combo/cards decks also, just it becomes harder to tell how much "Work" was done towards furthering your strategy or hindering your opponent's strategy when the end result isn't a game win, but an intermediate step towards that game win.


My guess at the function is that it's +1 card = -1 mana, and that a 7 mana 1 card combo is fair.
7 mana for a 1 card combo (Belcher)
6 mana for a 2 card combo (Painters, FlameVault, Flash@2 was broken and got banned, PandeBurst@9 no-where near competitive)
5 mana for a 3 card combo (I'm not sure 1 of these exists, however Future Sight + Helm + Top is at least 6 mana and wasn't really competitive).


EDIT:

So let's say a 6 mana 2 card combo (Painter + Grindstone) is 1 unit of "Work," and let's say the number of turns required is 1 (assume you get all the mana on one turn and win), so it's Power is 1. A 2 card combo that costs 2 mana (Dreadnought + Stifle) would be 3 units of "Work" and let's say it requires 3 turns to win (play dude, attack, attack), so it's Power is 1. Obviously gauging the Power of an entire deck would be much more difficult (Dreadstill probably is more Powerful as it has another card to combo with Nought). Also, this doesn't take into consideration the resiliance (Painter can get Lightning Bolted where as Dreadnought can't) and robustness (Dreadnought can get blocked by 2 6/7 Goyfs, where as Painter doesn't care, Grindstone cares about an opposing Academy Ruins, where as Dreadnought doesn't, etc) of the combo.