[Deck] Goblin Champions [Archive]

GreenOne

12-20-2008, 09:07 AM

The deck starts with an idea of rufus (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7851) that was brilliant but never had the proper testing and development. Also, Eseph posted a new combo (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=296528&postcount=144)on the "List of compact combos" thread that seems made with this deck in mind.

The deck is an aggro-combo deck based on the goblin tribal synergy.

The List:

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Taiga
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
6 [MI] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
4 Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [ON] Skirk Prospector (or Sledder)

// Spells
4 [MM] Food Chain
3 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere

My Current List
// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 [PT] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [OD] Forest (3)
2 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
3 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [PLC] Stingscourger (or 3rd Piledriver)
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [ON] Skirk Prospector
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
2 [ON] Goblin Piledriver

// Spells
4 [MM] Food Chain
2 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter

[B]The combos:
[U]Combo n.1: Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter + Food Chain/Prospector/Sledder

- Play Kiki
- play Crafter
- Put the champion trigger on stack (or you can resolve it if you have something juicy to champion).
___REPEAT___
- Copy Crafter with Kiki.
- Deal 3 to the opponent
- Champion Kiki with the copy of crafter
- Sacrifice the copy of Crafter with your sacrifice outlet
- Kiki comes into play untapped
___END___

Combo n.2: Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter + Sharpshooter (with no sickness)
- Play kiki
- Play Crafter
- Put the champion trigger on stack
___REPEAT___
- Copy Crafter with kiki.
- Deal 1 to the opponent with Sharpshooter
- Tap the copy of Crafter to kill itself
- Untap sharpshooter
- Kiki comes into play untapped
___END___

Combo n.3: Matron + Food Chain
- Play Matron for Kiki-Jiki
- Play Kiki-Jiki
- Copy Matron for Lightning Crafter
- Sacrifice the original Matron for RRRR
___REPEAT x4___
- Play Crafter, championing Kiki
- Sacrifice Crafter with Food Chain
- Kiki comes into play untapped
- Copy matron for Crafter
___END___
- When you have no more Crafters in the deck, Kiki copies matron for Kiki-Jiki
___REPEAT___
- Sacrifice Kiki Jiki with Food Chain
- Play Kiki-Jiki
- Copy Matron for Kiki
___END___
When you have no more Kiki in the deck, Kiki copies matron for Pyromancer. (If you need to avoid manaburn you can just Matron->Matron->Matron->Pyromancer)
- At this point you have like 7-8 hasty copies of matron.
- Play Pyromancer (sac kiki if you don't have enough mana)
- Attack with 7-8 hasty 4/1 Matrons for >20 damage.

Why this over Vial Goblins?
I really don't know if this deck is better than Vial Goblins, but the deck has some potential.

Plus:
- It can combo out of nothing with, say, a Warchief+Food Chain in play and a Matron in hand
- Post side it can play like a chalice aggro deck against things like combo (with proper SB building)
- It can play threats at a faster speed. This deck can play matron on turn 1 and ringleader on turn 2.
- Crafter on its own is a solution to Propaganda, Moat and similars.
- 2/3 of the combos go infinite. This might matter against life.deck I guess.
- With higher cmc cards, a connecting lackey/instigator really messes up with the opponent.
- Possibility of playing Warren Instigator on turn 1.

Minus:
- Doesn't run Vial
- Runs cards that are not huge on their own (crafter, kiki, sledder)
- No creature removal other than crafter

Equals:
- it has the same amount of card drawing of Vial Goblins
- same brokenness of Lackey

Is someone interested in this thing? I'm willing to do some testing, but don't have testing partners atm. PM me if you're interested. Meanwhile I did some matches on mws. I won a game against The Rock, and one against vial gobbos against a bad player. Then won another game against Rock and Elves against a good player.

kicks_422

12-20-2008, 11:00 AM

Some dude from MtgSal (Eseph, IIRC) has been performing really well with Legacy FCG. Maybe you could get some tips from him or something.

GreenOne

12-20-2008, 11:47 AM

Some dude from MtgSal (Eseph, IIRC) has been performing really well with Legacy FCG. Maybe you could get some tips from him or something.

Thanks. I wondered if there was anything already up.

It's also possible a decklist that features Combo n.1 and n.2 without the need to splash green for Food Chain. This inproves your ringleaders and possibly your ability to go in aggro mode. You can also decide to splash another color this way. You could even re-evaluate vial.

Monored List:
// Lands
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
16 [MI] Mountain (4)

// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
4 [ON] Skirk Prospector

// Spells
3 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere

Illissius

12-20-2008, 12:14 PM

Might be a dumb question, but is there anything stopping you from playing Food Chain -and- Aether Vial?

GreenOne

12-20-2008, 12:21 PM

Might be a dumb question, but is there anything stopping you from playing Food Chain -and- Aether Vial?

It's anti-synergistic (sp?):
- Food chain works well when you have loads of creatures in hand
- Vial works better when you have a smooth curve and a lot of creatures in the deck
- Running both weakens you ringleaders

Here's another list threw carelessly in this thread that it's actually probably better than the others:
Monored with vial:
// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
18 [MI] Mountain (4)

// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
4 [ON] Skirk Prospector

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

georgjorge

12-20-2008, 12:25 PM

The list and write-up from Eseph can be found here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3402946&postcount=1).

I built a somewhat similar "Goblin Stompy", without the combo, a while back. It splashed black for the Banneret (can be better than Warchief with lots of colorless mana), Boggart Mob (champion a CIP Goblin and it's a pretty good beater) and of course Weirding. Wort is also good if you can drop it on the third turn...

Mordenkaynen

12-21-2008, 02:10 AM

It seems to me that in legacy version Thorn in main would be better than Chain.
Next note is a stupid one, but if you run green in goblins, it's strange not to have krosan grip or huligan in SB.

Eseph

12-21-2008, 09:20 PM

The difference there is that Thorn won't win you the game on turn 2... Thorn is a strong card, but I rarely find that it would be of much use, compared to Food Chain or Aether Vial. And yeah, I would highly recommend either, if nothing else 1 TSH in the main can go a fair way in plenty of matches.

The list I've been running recently looks like this:
4x Taiga
1x Stomping Grounds
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Mountain
3x Ancient Tomb
3x Wasteland

2x Chrome Mox
4x Food Chain

4x Goblin Lackey
2x Skirk Prospector
3x Goblin Piledriver
3x Stingscourger
1x Tin-Street Hooligan
1x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Ringleader
2x Lightning Crafter
4x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Siege-Gang Commander

SB:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Aether Vial (for when Food Chain just isn't viable)
4x Krosan Grip
2x Vexing Shusher
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

If I can stress one thing over anything else it's that with the current trend on Team America, and Dreadstill, Stingscourger is probably one of the strongest goblins available to us. Otherwise I'm glad to see someone else working towards this kind of list. I seem to be slowly building some sort of support for it over on MTGSal, but the more people working on improving the list the better chance we have of making something out of it.

How have you been finding Pyromancer? I was considering it, and I like that it provides an alternative combo win (of sorts). In testing I just found that more often than not I'd just rather have another Lightning Crafter when I drew into it. Also your Combo 3 is not something I had considered, as I've never run a full set of them relying on the kiki engine to find infinite. I've been trying to keep access to a regular Aggro Goblin build within the food chain combo, just to provide for another alternate win. One thing I would keep in mind for quick early wins that Kiki's end of turn interactions with Piledriver allow for another turn 3 win.

I honestly think this deck takes far better advantage of Lackey than your average Vial goblins list, An early Kiki-Jiki is capable of wreaking an extreme amount of damage in the early game. And any combination of Lackey + Piledriver + Kiki/SGC is capable of wining on turn 3.

rufus

12-21-2008, 11:36 PM

... Also your Combo 3 is not something I had considered, as I've never run a full set of them relying on the kiki engine to find infinite....

Combo 3 was the original concept I came up with, and predates the publication of lightning crafter. It's very likely to be less than ideal.

GreenOne

12-22-2008, 03:17 AM

@Eseph
I found a problem to build up the combo when you need a not maximized combination of 3 cards:
4 Kiki + 2 Crafter + 6 sacrifice effect. This means that excluding Matron and Ringleader those are the probabilities of drawing into the combo:
Turn 3=9% , 4=12%, 5=15%, 6=18%
Here are the percentages with 4 Crafters:
Turn 3=17%, 4=21%, 5=25%, 6=29%

So with just 2 slots you almost double the chance of having the combo without tutoring for it. I know that crafter is not huge as a beater, But why play the combo and weaken our slots (compared to Vial Gobbos) with such low percentages of comboing? Also, combo n.3 is not thrilling, but it's a solid one. Without disruption involved you'll have both combo pieces on turn 4 31% of the time.
The good thing about Vintage Food Chain Gobbos is that with no disruption involved you just need Food Chain + Recruiter + 1 mana to win. Here you just need Food Chain + Matron + 5 mana. It's just 1 turn difference (not considering power), even if the combo is easier disruptable. You also have the chance of a turn 2 win with a busted hand :cool:

To sum it, I think we either have to give up the combo or to maximize it, cause your weak slot will lose you more games than they win comboing out (like when you draw only 2/3 of the combo). If I had not to play the 3rd combo then I'd take out Food Chain: Prospector/Sledder/Sharpshooter does the job the same way, it's tutorable and it's a goblin.

Pyromancer is not thrilling, but it's solid in the mirror and needed for the combo.

I'd like to hear what are you thinking about this. We probably need to debate wether is better to have a traditional goblin list with the minimum weakest slots or a maximized one (or something in between).

Eldariel

12-22-2008, 03:30 AM

If you focus on the combo, you become just a bad combo-deck ('cause you win slow, with relatively weak protection and with disruptable combo pieces). The deck's potential comes from the fact that it's a very powerful aggro deck that requires answers WITH the potential to just combo off when opponent focuses on answering your threats. Food Chain+Matron alone tends to be enough to win. You don't really NEED the combo win when flooding the board with a billion Goblins; you can just turn them sideways.

However, having access to the combo IS important since that means you can win post-combat (for example when using Lackey to get the combo going) and on the spot against all kinds of disruption. However, when you do go for the combo win, you usually get to draw most of your library. That means that you don't need full sets to find them when you need them - therefore, less than maximum is optimal since it improves your normal gameplan when you don't combo off (which happens quite a lot with only 4 Food Chains and all).

Really, it's got the combo-finish, but it's a secondary plan when the primary doesn't work. Turning it into your primary plan removes the primary advantage the deck has in the first place. Combo is disruptible. The aggro plan much less so. Also, both tend to require different answers, at least by and large (as long as there's no Engineered Plague in the deal).

GreenOne

12-22-2008, 04:14 AM

However, having access to the combo IS important since that means you can win post-combat (for example when using Lackey to get the combo going) and on the spot against all kinds of disruption.

If your lackey is connecting you're going to win (combo or not) at least in most cases.

However, when you do go for the combo win, you usually get to draw most of your library. That means that you don't need full sets to find them when you need them.

Mmmh, maybe I'm playing the deck wrong. I usually try to assemble the combo tutoring for the pieces or drawing into them. Are you guys trying to go broken with Food Chain (the way recruiter allowed, but with more luck involved)?

Also, both tend to require different answers, at least by and large (as long as there's no Engineered Plague in the deal).
Combo n.1 works with 1 plague on board :cool:

Eseph

12-22-2008, 09:21 AM

Mmmh, maybe I'm playing the deck wrong. I usually try to assemble the combo tutoring for the pieces or drawing into them. Are you guys trying to go broken with Food Chain (the way recruiter allowed, but with more luck involved)?

That would be it. Though it's still involves tutoring, but the primary reason for including Kiki originally was not for the combo. He was the replacement to recruiter, and he fills the roll admirably, in addition to being just about the most broken goblin around (after lackey). With a full set of Kiki's you can use him with a matron or ringleader, and never worry about hitting a second kiki as you can just remove him to food chain for 6 mana, and play out a second or third for continued activations of his abilities. Not to mention the copies he pumps out remove for full casting cost +1, thanks to them being copies. By piloting this deck more like your average goblins list you might find it flows a tad better, I never complain about seeing any partial piece of the combo, as on their own Lightning Crafter or Kiki-Jiki can do a large amount of damage, and the 2 of them together without a sac outlet can still deal 9 damage from one of your turns to the next, and provide matron or ringleader tricks. That's the main reason I wouldn't run sledder or anything else that really doesn't benefit the entirety of the deck.

When Eldariel says win after combat he's referring to how this deck wins on turn 2, where the only way to do it involves swinging with lackey to drop a matron or Ringleader, then playing Food Chain on the same turn. It's then possible to combo off in the 2nd main phase of turn 2 with the right cards and a bit of luck. This is where I'm trying to improve the deck, I want to maintain the same ability to win like this, or make the turn 3 win consistent, and reduce the "luck" aspect.

GreenOne

12-22-2008, 10:07 AM

Not to mention the copies he pumps out remove for full casting cost +1, thanks to them being copies.

Wow, didn't know that. This may change things.

When Eldariel says win after combat he's referring to how this deck wins on turn 2, where the only way to do it involves swinging with lackey to drop a matron or Ringleader, then playing Food Chain on the same turn. It's then possible to combo off in the 2nd main phase of turn 2 with the right cards and a bit of luck. This is where I'm trying to improve the deck, I want to maintain the same ability to win like this, or make the turn 3 win consistent, and reduce the "luck" aspect.

Well, with 3 mana on board on turn 2 and a lackey connecting putting a ringleader/matron into play you should win anyway, combo or not.
I considered a turn 2 win that doesn't involve Lackey. This can actually happen with a hand like: Food Chain, Food Chain, Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox,, Ringleader, Land and another good gobbo. If you have a matron then ringleader must show a Kiki, a Matron or a Crafter, if you got a Kiki or Crafter, ringleader must show a Matron. Or obviously you can chain Ringleaders until you find those pieces.

I'll try to play the deck as this. It surely may work, and justifies the green splash.

Also, I did notice a thing, and modified Combo n.3.
Now it works in Eseph's version too (with only 1 added Pyromancer), cause it doesn't need 4 crafters any more.
It also deals more than 20 dmg.Check it out in the opening post.

Thanks guys for helping out.

rufus

12-22-2008, 10:49 AM

Mmmh, maybe I'm playing the deck wrong. I usually try to assemble the combo tutoring for the pieces or drawing into them. Are you guys trying to go broken with Food Chain (the way recruiter allowed, but with more luck involved)?

One of the things that I don't see discussed here explicitly, but that has the potential to be broken is that the deck can produce serial ringleader effects using Kiki-Jiki copying, champion mechanics, drawing into more ringleaders, and, in a pinch, pulling something with matron -- especially in combination with Food Chain. (Using the champion mechanic does open up the deck to 2 for 1's against instant speed removal, but that's life.)

With 10 or so potential ringleader effects, not counting matrons, the deck can't quite page through itself, but it's close. It seems likely that, even if they don't draw into the combo, the serial ringleaders will threaten a finish on the next turn, or, at worst, burn chaff off the top of the deck.

Eldariel

12-22-2008, 11:40 AM

A fairly trivial non-Lackey turn 2 win: Turn 1 Matron, turn 2 Food Chain. Eat Matron, drop Ring, eat Ring, drop SGC*, eat SGC, drop the world, win.

*Not necessary if you can chain draw effects, but makes life easier.

rufus

12-22-2008, 12:11 PM

A fairly trivial non-Lackey turn 2 win: Turn 1 Matron, turn 2 Food Chain. Eat Matron, drop Ring, eat Ring, drop SGC*, eat SGC, drop the world, win.

There's also a fragile turn 2 combo #3:
Turn 1
Matron
Turn 2
Food Chain
Eat Matron, Drop Matron (R)
Eat Matron, Drop Matron (RR)
Eat Matron, Drop Matron (RRR)
Drop Lighting Crafter (using chrome mox/spare gobbo), Champion Matron
Eat Lightning Crafter, Drop Kiki-Jiki...

Eseph

12-22-2008, 06:10 PM

One of the things that I don't see discussed here explicitly, but that has the potential to be broken is that the deck can produce serial ringleader effects using Kiki-Jiki copying, champion mechanics, drawing into more ringleaders, and, in a pinch, pulling something with matron -- especially in combination with Food Chain. (Using the champion mechanic does open up the deck to 2 for 1's against instant speed removal, but that's life.)

With 10 or so potential ringleader effects, not counting matrons, the deck can't quite page through itself, but it's close. It seems likely that, even if they don't draw into the combo, the serial ringleaders will threaten a finish on the next turn, or, at worst, burn chaff off the top of the deck.

This is pretty much how I've been running my list, rather than explicitly looking for the combo, I'm just looking to give myself the most options as possible while playing out the cards dealt to me. It is Food Chain that makes this deck explosive though.

At this point I don't much think we really need to discuss the number of different combos possible, there are plenty, and that's one of the strengths of the deck. What we should be aiming to do is find a list that's the most effective and reliable. Also what we feel is the most worthwhile way of using the combo in relation to food chain, et all.

ScatmanX

06-22-2009, 02:53 PM

I dont know if is worth it to play this over the regular goblin builds, but it sure is a hell lot of fun. Being able to turn the tide with just some lands and Food chain, a matron and a kiki jiki and crafter in hand is awesome. It is, in my opinion, quite dificult to play though, once there are to many options to search, sac, copy, champion, etc...

the list Ive been playing with is this:

// Lands
4 [B] Taiga
2 [9E] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
2 [LRW] Changeling Berserker
4 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
2 [ON] Skirk Prospector
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver

// Spells
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MM] Food Chain

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 3 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere

I guess is very thight. Changeling Berserker is awesome. Having more cards that champion creatures while Food Chain is in play is awesome. And is a 5/^3 beffy creature.
So, does this has any future?

GreenOne

06-23-2009, 03:56 AM

I guess is very thight. Changeling Berserker is awesome. Having more cards that champion creatures while Food Chain is in play is awesome. And is a 5/^3 beffy creature.
So, does this has any future?
Are you sure? I found Berserker quite clunky. It's actually non-needed for any of the combos, and you first need a Matron/Ringleader to get things done with Food chain. But after you played them, it's quite likely to have either Kiki or Crafter in hand to continue the chain. I'd add the 4th kiki before the 2nd Berserker.

I'm tinkering with this list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [B] Taiga
7 [PT] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [OD] Forest (3)

// Creatures
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
1 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [ON] Skirk Prospector

// Spells
4 [MM] Food Chain
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

This list adds the awesomeness of vial, and almost removes piledriver from the list, with it being a bad card to drop with ancient tombs, and not that good in a deck that plays many more high cc dudes and championing creatures. It's almost never more than an attanking 5/2.

Eseph

06-23-2009, 05:33 PM

I was going to add in my list, but just go here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3778047&postcount=16) and that's pretty close to what I'm running at the moment. I've never really understood the lure of Pyromancer, I know he was the original intent for your build, but the crafter combo is just easier, and more effective (going through moat and the like). Same goes for the reluctance on Kiki #4, he is the important factor for just about all the relevent combos, and he is a big factor in a turn 3 kill without food chain. Which is why I'd be worried about reducing Piledrivers so low, despite needing lackey + Kiki/SGC the win won't happen without a driver in the mix, not without food chain.

Anyways the list I'm running is about as focused on combo as I'm willing to make it, straying too far from the aggro capabilities just ruins the real advantage that FCG always had. Being the ability to win multiple ways, and being totally reliant on combo pieces. And GreenOne I don't understand your resoning that Driver is worse in a deck with higher CC's, but Vial isn't? Does not compute.

GreenOne

06-23-2009, 06:27 PM

And GreenOne I don't understand your resoning that Driver is worse in a deck with higher CC's, but Vial isn't? Does not compute.
Vial is good in a deck with a good number of creatures, and goes to its maximum when it can give you 3-4-5 mana for the starting 1 investment. Dropping 1-2cc with vial is not that efficient. Obviously is a little slower, but allows creatures to not get countered, and to be easier on their mana cost (like the RRR on kiki).
Vial is good when you have creatures in your hand.
On the other side, Piledriver works when you have a good number of dudes on the board, not inyour hand. This happens less than with the standard goblin lists, due to the lower number of 1-2 cc dudes and the champion ability (also, Crafter rarely wants to attack).

I like your list, except for the SB. How's Goblin assassin workin out? what about Leyline of Lifeforce?
You're right, Pyromancer might probably be cut: you could combo with just a matron, a food chain and 5 spare mana (matron for kiki, copy matron and go for the Pyromancer combo), but you can do the same thing copying matron for crafter, sac matron to food chain, play crafter, and win with its champion's ability on stack.
It's a pity for Pyromancer's awesome coolness.

Eseph

06-23-2009, 06:44 PM

Yeah but you are worsening your early game to give you the equivalent of a win-more card in this deck. The deck doesn't need the vial to work through Wasteland and Port like Vial Goblins, and it doesn't compare to the speed Food Chain provides. Plus you're resigning yourself to getting no use out of the vial for 3 turns, more than likely. If the game is still going by the time Vial will be truly effective for you, you are already in a bad way.

I'm not trying to compare Vial to Driver, I just really do not see the need for Vial in here. I only ever had it in my board as a means to by-pass some counterspells, and compared to Leyline, it just doesn't compare. Leyline makes some matches complete cakewalks, making the rest of your deck uncounterable (they come in over food chain).

Assassin is interesting, I really don't know what more to say for him. He's my solution to Progenitus, and combined with Leyline he works fairly well. The only real alternative is splashing some black and adding Warren Wierding in it's place. The only problem is Wierding doesn't play well with Leyline, though it's still not a terrible plan.

Edit: Also with Driver the Aggro argument still stands, without him your attack game is fairly lacking. And You really shoe-horn yourself into needing a combo to win.

GreenOne

06-23-2009, 07:13 PM

You're probably right about Vial. It might find its place in monored aggro/combo though. that deck doesn't have food chain, and already have a nice curve to work with and a huge number of creatures.

rufus

06-24-2009, 11:32 AM

I've never really understood the lure of Pyromancer
Pyromancer is basically required for combo #3. For all of its faults, Combo #3 bootstraps a bit faster than the other two since it can start with 2 cards (Matron + Food Chain) while the other 2 either require an untap, or an additional card (Matron, KJ, or one of the Champion cards will all work.) And if the deck does swarm, Pyromancer can provide a nice heaping helping of extra damage as a second-rate piledriver so he's not exactly a dead card on the aggro side. (The deck concept also predates the availability of Lightning Crafter, so Pyromancer was a key aspect of the direct combo threat.)

I don't actively play the deck, so I don't have any insight about Pyro as a win-more card, but he does help the combo side race, and is probably decent for the aggro side, and really only wants to be played as a 1-of.

Eseph

06-24-2009, 06:48 PM

That's just it though, I tested Pyromancer, and the only thing I ever wanted him to be was just another Crafter. I understand the concept for him being a boon to both paths, but in all reality, you should win with either path long before you might consider him. One thing I do not get is "combo #3", or how it's really efficient, as the only way it works is if you have 8 mana in lands or creatures available, or an untap step, at least in the early game.

When I put FCG together I had no prior knowledge of any efforts put forth, or the champion effects being put to that use. And while I admire those efforts, and was even tempted by Pyromancer myself, just going for his combo over other options burns way too many resources (matrons/crafters/kikis). When I tried Pyromancer, I found that I would always prefer pulling up a ringleader to a kiki or other matron rather than try and win with him, unless he was already in hand, at which point he would have been more useful as a crafter.

Can you or GreenOne re-explain combo 3 at all? As it stands it looks as though you assume 8 mana or an untap step... At which point you've likely already lost/won (too many lands and late game/aggroed out), or, with the untap step, been better off setting up the crafter kill.

GreenOne

06-24-2009, 07:17 PM

One thing I do not get is "combo #3", or how it's really efficient, as the only way it works is if you have 8 mana in lands or creatures available, or an untap step, at least in the early game.
The entire combo needs food chain in play and 4R to win the game.
You play matron for matron for matron for matron for matron, netting RRR and still have a matron in play. With the last matron you tutor for Kiki, play it with an additional 2 colorless (you can net this even with spare goblins in your hand), and start the combo as it's described in the opening post.
It's probaly the most mana efficient combo for food chain, cause it's just a 2 card combo that usually just needs 2G+2R and a couple spare goblins in hand to win.

Here's a sample hand that should assure 20+ damage on turn 2.
Chrome mox, Ancient tomb, Food Chain, Matron, Fetch, Mons's Goblin Raiders x2

Turn 1: Chrome mox (pitching Mons), ANcient Tomb, Matron (for Matron).
Turn 2: Fetch Taiga, play Food Chain, sac Matron, Play Matron (for Matron), sac Matron, Play Matron (for Matron), Play Mons, sac Mons, sac Matron (RRRRRRR in pool). Play Matron (for Kiki), tap Mox (RRRRR in pool), Play Kiki.
- Copy Matron for Lightning Crafter
- Sacrifice the original Matron for RRRR
___REPEAT until you have no more Crafters in the deck___
- Play Crafter, championing Kiki
- Sacrifice Crafter with Food Chain
- Kiki comes into play untapped
- Copy matron for Crafter
___END___
- When you have no more Crafters in the deck, Kiki copies matron for Kiki-Jiki
___REPEAT until you have no more Kiki in the deck___
- Sacrifice Kiki Jiki with Food Chain
- Play Kiki-Jiki
- Copy Matron for Kiki
___END___
When you have no more Kiki in the deck, Kiki copies matron for Pyromancer.

Swing for 24-32 damage.

EDIT: on another note, dare you happy with your manabase? 20 lands +2 Chrome Mox doesn't seem that stable to me.
Also, did you test Gemstone Caverns? It might really work better than in regular goblins here, since we're not running ports (low number of colorless lands) and we're actually a deck that wants to run Chrome mox, and Caverns is sort of.

Eseph

06-24-2009, 07:49 PM

OK, that makes a bit more sense, but it's still not a combo I would be comfortable with, namely because it necessitates burning through all of the tutors in your deck just to start the combo... Also your original post does not detail it in that order (just a heads up). Anyways, I may test Pyromancer again, but I'm very comfortable with my list as is, and can't see myself ever wanting to try this combo game 1 against an unknown deck, or anything showing an Island of any sort. As that first Kiki is a hard sell, and if it gets as far as the Pyromancer, that will also be tough to resolve.

Honestly I think I'm just too attached to keeping as many options open as possible, and being able to consistently resolve threats vs decks like Threshold, to go for something so resource hungry.

As for the mana base, I tend to run mana-light decks, always have, and while this is no real exception, I wouldn't add any more. For starters I have nothing I want to replace with a land, and I am a die-hard Ringleader user, I've won more games with the CA he provides than anything else, and I'm already not thrilled being 1 goblin shy of 35. On top of that there are so many effects in the deck that make up for mana that I often have more than I need. Between Tombs extra mana, Food Chain, Lackey, Warchief, and Prospector... My mana is usually fairly well covered.

Edit: I realize it sounds a little hypocritical to say I want to keep as many options open as possible, but not run another 1 of, the thing is I don't have anything it would fit in over, and the crafter combo encompasses such a reliable combo, with or without food chain, that Pyromancer just doesn't feel as though he belongs.

rufus

06-24-2009, 08:21 PM

Edit: I realize it sounds a little hypocritical to say I want to keep as many options open as possible, but not run another 1 of, the thing is I don't have anything it would fit in over, and the crafter combo encompasses such a reliable combo, with or without food chain, that Pyromancer just doesn't feel as though he belongs.

Combo #3 actually only requires only 1 colorless or 1 extra creature card since it's possible to recycle the last matron by championing it with Lightning Crafter or Changeling Berserker.

I'm not sure there are matchups that warrant it, but Pyromancer could also make sense as a sideboard card if you want to make the deck combo just that little bit faster.

GreenOne

06-24-2009, 08:28 PM

OK, that makes a bit more sense, but it's still not a combo I would be comfortable with, namely because it necessitates burning through all of the tutors in your deck just to start the combo... Also your original post does not detail it in that order (just a heads up). Anyways, I may test Pyromancer again, but I'm very comfortable with my list as is, and can't see myself ever wanting to try this combo game 1 against an unknown deck, or anything showing an Island of any sort. As that first Kiki is a hard sell, and if it gets as far as the Pyromancer, that will also be tough to resolve.

Honestly I think I'm just too attached to keeping as many options open as possible, and being able to consistently resolve threats vs decks like Threshold, to go for something so resource hungry.

Edit: I realize it sounds a little hypocritical to say I want to keep as many options open as possible, but not run another 1 of, the thing is I don't have anything it would fit in over, and the crafter combo encompasses such a reliable combo, with or without food chain, that Pyromancer just doesn't feel as though he belongs.

yeah, this combo is usually used when it's turn 3 or 4 and the opponent is tapped out. if they got a FoW, and you have a Food chain in play, and you're playing a Matron, I bet my hairy ass that the guy on the other side of the table is going to counter it. If he doesn't have FoW then he just loses.
Things obviously got easier if you know the opponent is not playing blue or, eventually, Snuff Out.

There's an obvious difference between putting yourself into a good position for winning the game with ringleader's CA, and actually winning the game swinging for 30. Sometimes you should just do it, and this is an option you want to keep open.

Combo #3 actually only requires only 1 colorless or 1 extra creature card since it's possible to recycle the last matron by championing it with Lightning Crafter or Changeling Berserker.

I'm not sure there are matchups that warrant it, but Pyromancer could also make sense as a sideboard card if you want to make the deck combo just that little bit faster.
Wow, didn't notice that. So that actually makes those hands:

Food Chain+Matron+Mox+Fetch+Tomb+Coloured card -> turn 2 win
Food Chain+Matron+tomb+2xlands -> turn 3 win
Food Chain+Matron+4lands -> turn 4 win

ScatmanX

06-26-2009, 11:03 AM

Turn 1: Chrome mox (pitching Mons), ANcient Tomb, Matron (for Matron).
Turn 2: Fetch Taiga, play Food Chain, sac Matron, Play Matron (for Matron), sac Matron, Play Matron (for Matron), Play Mons, sac Mons, sac Matron (RRRRRRR in pool). Play Matron (for Kiki), tap Mox (RRRRR in pool), Play Kiki.
- Copy Matron for Lightning Crafter
- Sacrifice the original Matron for RRRR
___REPEAT until you have no more Crafters in the deck___
- Play Crafter, championing Kiki
- Sacrifice Crafter with Food Chain
- Kiki comes into play untapped
- Copy matron for Crafter
___END___
- When you have no more Crafters in the deck, Kiki copies matron for Kiki-Jiki
___REPEAT until you have no more Kiki in the deck___
- Sacrifice Kiki Jiki with Food Chain
- Play Kiki-Jiki
- Copy Matron for Kiki
___END___
When you have no more Kiki in the deck, Kiki copies matron for Pyromancer.

Swing for 24-32 damage.

I was doing this today, and realised you could also go for the Kiki+Crafter+Food Chain Combo in the midle of it, instead of going for the Pyromancer rout. I changed after using 4 matrons, 3 Crafter and 1 Kiki, when I was able to cast Crafter with Kiki untapped.
I am really, really liking playing this deck. Almost feeling sorry for buying 4 Badlands 3 weeks ago.

The manabase is like this atm:
4 [B] Taiga
2 [9E] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns
1 [GP] Stomping Ground
I have never drew caverns, so keep testing. 21 lands seems the way to go for me.
There is also 3x Chrome Mox in here, wich is quite indespensable in my opinion. They lead to so many broken plays. And wit 4 Matrons, 4 Ringleaders, The card disadvantage goes by nearly unnoticed.

rufus

06-26-2009, 11:59 AM

I was doing this today, and realised you could also go for the Kiki+Crafter+Food Chain Combo in the midle of it, instead of going for the Pyromancer rout. I changed after using 4 matrons, 3 Crafter and 1 Kiki, when I was able to cast Crafter with Kiki untapped.

That will only work if you're holding a spare Matron, Kiki, or a Champion. Every card you tutor up with a matron effect will only generate one more matron effect, you need an extra to tutor up the third card in the Crafter/Kiki/Food Chain combo.

ChillerKiller0815

07-03-2009, 03:11 AM

Hi Guys,

I hope you didn´t give up on this deck already.
It really can play almost like a traditional aggro Goblin deck. Additionally it has the bonus of doing really explosive finishes in form of combos or neat stuff like a big pile of crafter/sharpshooter-damage.

With the New Chieftain the mogg war marshal becomes even better.

War Marshal´s benefits:

Fits the curve
Goes nuts with food chain (war + sac + Chieftain = 6 dmg)
Plays well with Piledriver
And since we start to thing about a few +1/+1 effects maindeck the tokengeneraters become better (Boartusk/Chieftain)
He goes really well with Caller of the Claw (I will come to him in a second)

Caller of the Claw:
1. He has been used before, but I think he became good again in this particular build as a 1 or 2-off.
2. If you have a foodchain online:
-Messes with combat math
- does bad stuff like: first turn Mox+Ancient tomb + foodchain/ second turn Matrone+Matrone+matrone+...+ genrate tokens+ warchief/Pyromancer/Chieftain = Equals a lot of dmg, then sac whatever craeture you have for a flashed Caller of the Claw giving you 3-7 2/2 Bears finishing the job the next turn.
3. Caller and his Bears get pumped by Boartusk Liege
4. Caller is Plague-proof

I know this all sounds a little unusual: but I am trying a different approach to goblins. Now you all will say that upping the non-goblin count will decrease the effectiveness of ringleader and you know what: you are right!

Now I am currently testing a build that replaces the Ringleader and focusses a little more on the swarm and combo strategy.
Because of cutting the goblin count I reduced the piledrivers to 2-3.
Now please take a deep breath: I played traditional Goblin builds in every Color except blue and I had to think about this step for quite a while:

I replaced Ringleader with a playset of Glimpse of Nature

Thought that brought me to this point:

1. It lowers the curve
2. Since we play food chain (and Caller) we sometimes want to find non-goblin spells that can only be found by drawing into them if you play ringleader. Now we draw into them as well with the difference that we get to draw a lot more.
3. Sidebord cards like REB, Pyrokinesis, Thorn, Grip and I don´t know ......whatever Non-Goblins get played are being found a lot more.
4. Ringleader brought me a little more then 2 goblins whenever you play him on average (23 lands + 4 Vial Or Foodchain + (SB-Cards) = ~30 which is about 50% of your deck) so glimpse of nature had to compete with that.
5. Matrone becomes insane under a glimpse
6. Food Chain and Glimpse + a single Matrone basically lets you play 10-25 spells which should lead to the combo every time
7. Stingscourger becomes really good.

It is a radical change and I know that. I am currently testing and I won´t feel sorry if I have to dismiss it again. But still your productive thoughts are very welcome.

To sum it up: This will no longer be traditional Goblin. Its a deck that plays Swarm-aggro with Lords (Siege Gang, War Marshal, Caller, Kiki-Jiki + Chieftain or Bartusk) Almost traditional Goblins (Lackey --> warchief + Pile, Pile /Chieftain/whatever you happen to have) and Combo

Greetings

GreenOne

07-03-2009, 03:52 AM

You didn't notice a couple things:

- Caller of the Claw works only on non-token creatures. This means that if you go for the pyromancer's route (that should win you the game on the spot anyway), you then sac all the matron copies and get no Bear token from them.

- Food Chain removes things from the game. So Caller of the Claw doesn't generate tokens from food chained creatures, mogg war marshal doesn't make a token when you sac it for food chain, and so on.

- Stingscourger can only bounce opponent's creatures, so you can't bounce itself to make it 1R:Draw a card under Glimpse.

- Glimpse of nature is only good when you have a Food Chain in play. It's particularly good with matron. But if you have matron + food chain, you already can go for the Pyromancer route and win the game, what's the point in drawing a bunch of cards when you can already win with the deck as it is in that situation?

- Ringleader is a threat alone, and has an obvious synergy with Food Chain, Kiki-Jiki and Crafter. You can actually pull out a combo just going with food chain and ringleader, since you can just draw into crafters, kikis and matrons to continue the chain.

It's nice to see your effort in trying different paths to make the deck competitive, but this one is not a good one to explore.

ScatmanX

07-03-2009, 11:29 AM

Since we´re talking about exploring new routs, what do you guys think about:
1-Survival of the Fittest fo find the things you want faster, also addin card advantage?
2- Fecundity, intead of the mentioned Glimpse.
3- Empty the Warrens.

Media314r8

07-05-2009, 03:34 PM

Worth noting: Imperial recruiter fetches matron, ringleader, and kiki, and plays well with food chain. He also has the added benefit over matron that he can fetch caller of the claw or other wacky winconditions that happen to be non-goblin.

GreenOne

06-27-2010, 11:59 AM

So, it's a bit I left this deck on the shelf, but wanted to start testing it again, seen the wider card pool goblin is now having.
In articular there's a card that can do quite a good job in this deck: Warren Instigator.

It might be especially good in this deck due to the mana acceleration we got in Chrome Mox and Gemstone Caverns.
While we have no removal for the opposing blockers, we really have much more overcosted dudes to cheat into play (matron, ringleader, crafter, kiki). If the opponent is using resources on this guy, then he will have less answers to the bad dudes we can play in the lategame, or for our combos.
So, it's basically a tool to drag the game in the midlate game, where we have a lot of highly costed bombs.

I'd substitute piledriver for him, since Pile is not going anywhere with the little creatures we have into play. We have too many high CC, and even champion guys that are temporarily reducing the number of our threats on board, and the fact that Crafter/kiki usually don't want to attack.

so, here's my new list, for whoever cares:

// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [B] Taiga
3 [PT] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [OD] Forest (3)
2 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [ON] Skirk Prospector
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

// Spells
4 [MM] Food Chain
2 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void