[Conflux] Set Discussion (formerly spoilers)

[Sanguine Voyeur]

This thread is for the general discussion of the Conflux card set. Please post all of your card-specific threads here. If there is some obviously powerful Thoughseize-level card in the set, feel free to start a separate thread, but it should be an obviously nutty card. - Bardo

Conflux, Partial Spoiler: http://mtgsalvation.com/conflux-spoiler.html

The first cards from Conflux have been leaked (http://mtgsalvation.com/conflux-spoiler.html). Worldly Counsel points to a domain theme as does 'Basic-Land Cycling.'

Also, what's with the reprints?

Conflux card names (previously spoiled):

This is the list:

Absorb Vis
Aerie Mystics
Ancient Ziggurat
Apocalypse Hydra
Armillary Sphere
Asha's Favor
Aven Squire
Aven Trailblazer
Banefire
Beacon Behemoth
Blood Tyrant
Bloodhall Ooze
Bone Saw
Brackwater Elemental
Canyon Minotaur
Celestial Purge
Charnelhoard Wurm
Child of Alara
Cliffrunner Behemoth
Conflux
Constricting Tendrils
Controlled Instincts
Corrupted Roots
Countersquall
Court Homunculus
Cylian Sunsinger
Dark Temper
Darklit Gargoyle
Drag Down
Dragonsoul Knight
Dreadwing
Elder Mastery
Ember Weaver
Encumbering Stone
Esper Cormorants
Esperzoa
Ethersworn Adjudicator
Exotic Orchard
Exploding Borders
Extractor Demon
Faerie Mechanist
Fiery Fall
Filigree Fracture
Fleshformer
Font of Mythos
Frontline Sage
Fusion Elemental
Giltspire Avenger
Gleam of Resistance
Gluttonous Slime
Goblin Outlander
Goblin Razerunners
Grixis Slavedriver
Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer
Hellkite Hatchling
Hellspark Elemental
Hermitage Illusionist
Ignite Disorder
Infectious Horror
Inkwell Leviathan
Jhessian Balmgiver
Kaleidostone
Kederekt Parasite
Knight of the Reliquary
Knotvine Mystic
Kranioceros
Lapse of Certainty
Maelstrom Archangel
Magister Sphinx
Malfegor
Mana Cylix
Manaforce Mace
Maniacal Rage
Mark of Asylum
Martial Coup
Master Transmuter
Matca Rioters
Mayael's Retaliator
Might of Alara
Mirror-Sigil Sergeant
Molten Frame
Nacatl Hunt-Pride
Nacatl Outlander
Nacatl Savage
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Noble Hierarch
Nyxathid
Obelisk of Alara
Paleoloth
Paragon of the Amesha
Parasitic Strix
Path to Exile
Pestilent Kathari
Progenitus
Quenchable Fire
Rakka Mar
Reliquary Tower
Rhox Bodyguard
Rhox Meditant
Rotting Rats
Rupture Spire
Sacellum Archers
Salvage Slasher
Scarland Thrinax
Scattershot Archer
Scepter of Dominance
Scepter of Fugue
Scepter of Insight
Scornful Ather-Lich
Sedraxis Alchemist
Shambling Remains
Shard Convergence
Sigil of the Empty Throne
Skyward Eye Prophets
Sludge Strider
Soul's Majesty
Sphinx Summoner
Spore Burst
Suicidal Charge
Sylvan Bounty
Telemin Performance
Thornling
Toxic Iguanar
Traumatic Visions
Tukatongue Thallid
Unstable Frontier
Unsummon
Vagrant Plowbeasts
Valeron Outlander
Valiant Guard
Vectis Agents
Vedalken Outlander
Viashino Slaughtermaster
View from Above
Voices from the Void
Volcanic Fallout
Voracious Dragon
Wall of Reverence
Wandering Goblins
Wild Leotau
Worldheart Phoenix
Worldly Counsel
Wretched Banquet
Yoke of the Damned
Zombie Outlander

[Giles]

You know that all of Conflux's card names, have been revealed already.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

You know that all of Conflux's card names, have been revealed already.Yes, but that isn't justification as to why the reprints.

[Tanarin]

Yes, but that isn't justification as to why the reprints.

Has to do with Wizards new policy on Core Sets I assume and making them more like regular expansions (I.E. more complex cards than we are used to seeing.) Also, no reason to print creature bounce version 25 when unsummon does the job just as well.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yes, but that isn't justification as to why the reprints.
Wizards does reprints in just about every set. They're just more noticeable now that the sets are smaller.

Also, Mark Rosewater wrote several articles on this, including one on Monday.

Unless you're asking why they're using these reprints specifically. Mana Cylix or whatever mana artifact it is they're reprinting will be much welcomed in draft (where four or five color decks are the norm but are only playable with Obelisks, tri-lands, fetchlands, or some combination of the above). Having drafted Shards weekly since it came out, I can say that more mana fixing is a must in order to make any domain-powered deck tick. Many a game has been lost due to color screw when someone didn't see any of the mana fixing they needed.

Unsummon is always useful, I suppose, and Counsel will be great to have because of the relatively low number of mono-colored draw spells (Courier's Capsules tend to get snatched up quickly).

[rockout]

Sedraxis Alchemist
2B
Creature - Zombie Wizard Uncommon
When Sedraxis Alchemist comes into play, if you control a blue permanent, you may return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand.
2/2

Might have some potential for Aluren Combo. Granted I have no practice with Aluren but maybe.

[Arsenal]

The spoiled cards have a strong Planeshift feel to them, the heavy emphasis on basic land types is what gave it away.

[Elfrago]

Basic Landcycling looks like interesting and could even be legacy playable if they're willing to push its power level.
Fusion Elemental is just awful as it is, if only it had basic landcycling...
Anyway, not bad, if they keep up with cards like this it's going to be a nice set.

[Ebinsugewa]

Basic Landcycling looks like interesting and could even be legacy playable if they're willing to push its power level.

Cause tons of Legacy decks play non-basic landcycling already?

[Elfrago]

Cause tons of Legacy decks play non-basic landcycling already?

Nope, becouse Eternal Dragon is playable.

[Jaiminho]

"Fusion Elemental is like riding a pony, which probably doesn't sound dangerous, except that in this case the pony is 300 feet tall and covered in chainsaws, and to get on the pony you have to take an elevator with sixteen live cougars."

[Pinder]

The spoiled cards have a strong Planeshift feel to them, the heavy emphasis on basic land types is what gave it away.

Yeah, first thought was "okay, where is the Tribal Flames reprint?".

And Basic Landcycling should get any land with a basic land type. Come on Wizards, throw Legacy a bone.

edit - Although this whole set seems to say "fuck you, Wasteland!". Which I appreciate.

[Illissius]

edit - Although this whole set seems to say "fuck you, Wasteland!". Which I appreciate.

If they printed a Teferi's Response variant which only drew one card but in exchange either cost :u: or had an alternate nonmana casting cost, it would make me happy.

[rockout]

Fusion Elemental's Flavor Text is awesome.

Fusion Elemental is like riding a pony, which probably doesn't sound dangerous, except that in this case the pony is 300 feet tall and covered in chainsaws, and to get on the pony you have to take an elevator with sixteen live cougars.

[Illissius]

Do we have to go through this every time MTGS starts getting a spoiler?

Whenever they don't know the flavor text, they make up something hilarious and completely implausible. It is not the actual flavor text.

[Jaiminho]

Fusion Elemental's Flavor Text is awesome.

Fusion Elemental is like riding a pony, which probably doesn't sound dangerous, except that in this case the pony is 300 feet tall and covered in chainsaws, and to get on the pony you have to take an elevator with sixteen live cougars.

3 posts above.



Do we have to go through this every time MTGS starts getting a spoiler?

Whenever they don't know the flavor text, they make up something hilarious and completely implausible. It is not the actual flavor text.

It's still worth quoting, isn't it?

[Illissius]

It's still worth quoting, isn't it?

Sure. As long as you're not doing it because you think WotC is so awesome for printing flavor text like this.

[rsaunder]

So the first 8 cards of the new set have been revealed, and although they most look like jank, one stuck out.

Fiery Fall R
Instant

[This] Does 5 damage to target creature.

Basic Land Cycling 1R.



So it kills tombstalker and most goyfs and cycles for BASICS against decks that don't care about creature damage. How's that for effective removal? I'm thinking Ur landstill or MUC with a red splash. Thoughts?

[Fonzy]

Do we have to go through this every time MTGS starts getting a spoiler?

Whenever they don't know the flavor text, they make up something hilarious and completely implausible. It is not the actual flavor text.

Thank god, because that flavor text is really stupid.

[Forbiddian]

That would be probably on par or better than Swords to Plowshares in Legacy.

It'll usually kill Goyf and always kill Tomby and everything else and the opponent doesn't gain life. Also, it can cycle for land against control decks. It can't kill a few things... magus of the tabernacle, dreadnought... but I think the landcycling makes up for it.



Unfortunately for this discussion, it costs 5R according to the leak, so yeah....

[rockout]

I hope progenitus is a sweet card.

[rsaunder]

That would be probably on par or better than Swords to Plowshares in Legacy.

It'll usually kill Goyf and always kill Tomby and everything else and the opponent doesn't gain life. Also, it can cycle for land against control decks. It can't kill a few things... magus of the tabernacle, dreadnought... but I think the landcycling makes up for it.



Unfortunately for this discussion, it costs 5R according to the leak, so yeah....For some reason I can't open MTGSalvation right now, but I would have sworn it was just R. If it is 5R, then sorry for cluttering up the board with discussion of a bad card.

[JeroenC]

It's most definitely 5R. This card would be way busted and would make Limited no fun if it was only R. Anything under 3R would be very strong and 3R or 4R would still be pretty strong (because of the alternate ability).

[CleverPetriDish]

Yep. There is no way that it costs R. A good rule of thumb for that is "If you find yourself saying 'this is better than STP', it is not real."

[Bardo]

Merged Conflux threads.

[Apex]

2RRBB
Creature - Dragon?
Fying?
When ~this~ comes into play, discard your hand. Target opponent sacrifices a creature for each card discarded this way.
6/6

Info from a guy on salvation that gave good spoilers in the past. That's instant cube inclusion for me. Probably costs way too much for legacy, unless you reanimate it (we say that for any big flashy fatty though)?

I don't think it's particularly good for standard or extended either, since control probably doesn't want to play it (ditch my hand? Nuh uh), and it costs too much for aggro. Probably works best if you can cheat it into play (Makeshift Mannequin?), Though it wouldn't surprise me if the actual clause on the card is "if you played ~this~ from your hand", and not just a plain CIPT.

[TrialByFire]

So the first 8 cards of the new set have been revealed, and although they most look like jank, one stuck out.

Fiery Fall R
Instant

[This] Does 5 damage to target creature.

Basic Land Cycling 1R.



So it kills tombstalker and most goyfs and cycles for BASICS against decks that don't care about creature damage. How's that for effective removal? I'm thinking Ur landstill or MUC with a red splash. Thoughts?

Except its mana cost is 5R making it terrible.

[Ssbm Rocks1]

Here's one card:
Obelisk of Alara 6
Artifact (R)
1W, Tap: You gain 5 life.
1U, Tap: Draw a card, then discard a card.
1B, Tap: Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
1R, Tap: Obelisk of Alara deals 3 damage to target player.
1G, Tap: Target creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn.

Doesn't seem very playable to me.

[Brad Herbig]

Here's one card:
Obelisk of Alara 6
Artifact (R)
1W, Tap: You gain 5 life.
1U, Tap: Draw a card, then discard a card.
1B, Tap: Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
1R, Tap: Obelisk of Alara deals 3 damage to target player.
1G, Tap: Target creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn.

Doesn't seem very playable to me.

Seems good in 5c EDH, but not much else.

[b4r0n]

That seems really good in Limited.

Also:

Exotic Orchard
Land
T: Add to your mana pool one mana of any color that a land an opponent controls could produce.

A worse version of Reflecting Pool? It might see play in T2.

[rockout]

Here's one card:
Obelisk of Alara 6
Artifact (R)
1W, Tap: You gain 5 life.
1U, Tap: Draw a card, then discard a card.
1B, Tap: Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
1R, Tap: Obelisk of Alara deals 3 damage to target player.
1G, Tap: Target creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn.

Doesn't seem very playable to me.

Too bad it cost 6. If it cost 3 I could see it easily being playable. It'll be a nice draft card since it looks like the set is going to be 5c pile jank again.

200th post ;-0

[TheLion]

The latest:

Noble Hierarch
G
Creature - ???
Exalted
{T}: Add G, W or U to your mana pool.
0/1

I think this could replace BoP easily in some decks.

[scrumdogg]

As long as you don't need red or black from your mana critter, it's strictly better, since it can either attack or pump your lone attacker (my Goyf is bigger than your Goyf, nyah). Assuming the CC is correct & these aren't a purple rare, this looks like a good card (and a good card to acquire). If the creature type is Elf that then makes it even better.

[quicksilver]

The latest:

Noble Hierarch
G
Creature - ???
Exalted
{T}: Add G, W or U to your mana pool.
0/1

I think this could replace BoP easily in some decks.

What is your source on this. All I could find on this was a thread where people were making up this card.

[AngryTroll]

Even if it is real, it doesn't produce black...when was the last time you saw Birds in a deck that didn't run black?

In fact...when was the last time you saw Birds? Survival runs them, but it runs Black and Red and not Blue. FEB runs them; it could see play in that deck, if real.

[TheLion]

What is your source on this. All I could find on this was a thread where people were making up this card.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=142181
read the whole thread. Most people believe the card is as I posted and the OP confirmed it at some point.
zesty234 has provided proven rumors like this in the past, too.

@AngryTroll: Yes, maybe you're right. Even if it is only FEB, I am happy enough... :smile:
Though maybe something like BGW Survival wanna have this over Birds. Maybe they'd miss the B, but Exalted > Flying on a BoP imo.

[Apex]

I know I'll be picking up many playsets of this to resell for standard (seems great when vivids rotate, and then reflecting pool rotating after that).

But then again, birds could potentially get reprinted in 11th, or it (this card) could be made as an uncommon (doubt it).

Good card for standard, and maybe extended, but if birds of paradise barely makes it in legacy, then I don't think this guy will make that much of a splash.

[KillemallCFH]

Did anyone else notice the "Basic Land (1)" at the bottom of the MTGSalvation spoiler (http://mtgsalvation.com/conflux-spoiler.html)? Are they finally making a colorless basic land or something? I guess that would go along the domain theme.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Did anyone else notice the "Basic Land (1)" at the bottom of the MTGSalvation spoiler (http://mtgsalvation.com/conflux-spoiler.html)? Are they finally making a colorless basic land or something? I guess that would go along the domain theme.

"Barry's land"? Really?


If the creature type is Elf that then makes it even better.

O_o 12 Llanowar elves?

[Bryant Cook]

O_o 12 Llanowar elves?
Rhino Monk.

[JeroenC]

Did anyone else notice the "Basic Land (1)" at the bottom of the MTGSalvation spoiler (http://mtgsalvation.com/conflux-spoiler.html)? Are they finally making a colorless basic land or something? I guess that would go along the domain theme.

I sure hope not, I hate cards that have no use of their own.

[Aggro_zombies]

Did anyone else notice the "Basic Land (1)" at the bottom of the MTGSalvation spoiler (http://mtgsalvation.com/conflux-spoiler.html)? Are they finally making a colorless basic land or something? I guess that would go along the domain theme.
I think it's just because no one's sure whether you'll continue to get basics in the packs as you currently do with Shards, hence the question mark.

[Atwa]

I think it's just because no one's sure whether you'll continue to get basics in the packs as you currently do with Shards, hence the question mark.

Wouldn't that mean they would either put a 0 or a 5 there? On the other hand, if the people on salvation knew there would be printed a new (collorless?) basic land type, the forums would be full of it, so I guess it's just an error.

[Pinder]

On the other hand, if the people on salvation knew there would be printed a new (collorless?) basic land type, the forums would be full of it, so I guess it's just an error.

Also, I keep thinking, and I can't come up with a reason why a colorless basic would be any better than an off color basic. If you're playing U/B and you have a couple of Mountains, they essentially tap for colorless. Except that you can still use them for stuff that cares about colored mana (sunburst etc.). I really can't see any reason why anyone would ever want a colorless basic land over an off-color basic.

[KillemallCFH]

Also, I keep thinking, and I can't come up with a reason why a colorless basic would be any better than an off color basic. If you're playing U/B and you have a couple of Mountains, they essentially tap for colorless. Except that you can still use them for stuff that cares about colored mana (sunburst etc.). I really can't see any reason why anyone would ever want a colorless basic land over an off-color basic.It would go along with the domain theme, and let Worldly Consul, Tribal Flames, etc. get 6 instead of only 5.

But yeah, it's not there anymore, so looks like it is not to be.

[Captain Hammer]

Please wizards, for the love of god, print some good BLUE landcyclers.

A good worthwhile blue landcycler or two would have a signficant impact on both vintage and legacy. Important since these two formats were pretty much completely ignored the past two sets.

[Bryant Cook]

Great idea. Lets make blue even more powerful. It's not like we just gave them Ponder and Counterbalance not too long ago.

[KillemallCFH]

Vintage and Legacy... were pretty much completely ignored the past two sets.http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ala/63.jpg

[rockout]

Noble Hierarch
G
Creature - Rhino Monk
Exalted
{T}: Add {W}, {U}, or {G} to your mana pool.
0/1

Better than birds? Doesn't tap for black which is the norm in a deck that runs birds. Makes your Goyf better than opponents. Swings for 1 without help from Doran. Decent. Might see ask much play as birds does now which isn't much.

[Infinitium]

Unfortunately, being an almost strictly better mana elf isn't much help without the Elf subtype itself. The fact that it breaks Goyf stalemates by itself is mighty interesting though, so it might see play in Survival should any variant of that deck become good again (I'd say comboless Cephalid Breakfeast is the most promising candidate atm).

[Atwa]

I just saw this:

Path of Exile (W)
Instant
Remove target creature from the Game. That Creatures controller may search for a basic land card and put that card into play tapped. Shuffle that library afterwards.

If this is true, would this be better than Swords to Plowshares? I guess not when playing Magus of the Moon, but for real decks, this seems pretty good.

[jbmulder]

I just saw this:

Path of Exile (W)
Instant
Remove target creature from the Game. That Creatures controller may search for a basic land card and put that card into play tapped. Shuffle that library afterwards.

If this is true, would this be better than Swords to Plowshares? I guess not when playing Magus of the Moon, but for real decks, this seems pretty good.

Where is this coming from? I'm not seeing it on the mtgsal spoiler.

If it is real, it's insane. Imagine removing Dreadnought from the game and instead of giving your opponent 12 life they put another island in to play. I've always hated having to give an opponent life when running Zoo or WW and this solves that problem. Sick, sick card.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Probably better in Zoo. Might be a decent supplement to StP in control. Almost certainly better than Condemn in Legacy.

Also, a 0/1 Rhino? WTF?

[rockout]

The whole "if this card is better than swords, then it's probably not real," seems to push me towards fake but heck, i'll take a playset of foils if it's real.

I found this on the wizards forums. The person who spoiled it said it was a Swords to Plowshares variant doesn't know rarity, cost or what the basic land part has to do with the card.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1127842

[Atwa]

I found it here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=142400). It seems the source is reliable. He is also holding a puzzle at the moment about Nicol Bolas. If the things he claims are true, this set is going to be ridiculous.

True, Bolas is God, but this strong? It's really sick.

Here is how far they are with puzzling:
http://www.dragonguardian.com/mtgblog/wp-content/uploads/nicol-bolas-planeswalker-most.jpg

[rockout]

Please don't cost 8 Mr. Bolas. I want you to actually see play because your picture is so sexy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Fuck.

Now I have to build a Nicol Bolas deck for Legacy.

Fuck.

[Atwa]

Fuck.

Now I have to build a Nicol Bolas deck for Legacy.

Fuck.
All in favor of unbanning Dream Halls? :tongue:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If the big Negative is some sort of kill condition, and the starting loyalty is high, like 6 or 7, this could actually be a fantastic finisher in an MBC shell.

[AngryTroll]

The fact that it breaks Goyf stalemates by itself is mighty interesting though, so it might see play in Survival should any variant of that deck become good again...

Should any variant of that deck see more play. GBr and 4c Survival are both perfectly fine choices for the current metagame.


That Swords variant would be nuts. It must cost more than one, or be a Sorcery, or fetch more than one basic or something. If it's a 1cc instant, it'd be amazing.

Nicol Bolas looks awesome.

[Tanarin]

Well Zesty has been a relable and proven source of cards, having helped spoiled the last set as well. I doubt he would pull a prank on us like that now.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The more I think about it, the more powerful the Rhino-Bird seems. Aside from creature type, it basically obsoletes Llanowar Elves, and unless you have double-black in your deck it seems better than Birds in most relevant situations. I would try to pick up a playset early. I think it'll probably hit at least 15$ a pop if it's rare for the duration of it's Standard career.

[Nihil Credo]

Except for the very unlikely case that it fails to find a deck, that Bird variant is going to be another Thoughtseize. Exalted is a hell of an ability in Standard (don't know about Extended; in Legacy it can be great, but you need a deck that wants Birds and doesn't attack in swarms).

[Apex]

Just please don't make that Path to Exile a rare.

Because if the wording is the same as the salvation spoilers, it's going to cost a shitload of money if it was printed at rare.

Though even if it's an uncommon, it's going to be a fast selling one.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I rarely endorse giving your opponent two-for-ones, but yeah, the StP variant will be at least $7 if it's uncommon.

They've been pretty good about making good cards common/uncommon lately, though. Here's hoping.

[Illissius]

I'm really not sure about Path. It might be good. But on the other hand, there is a reason we don't play Eladamri's Vineyard.

[Spare Parts]

But on the other hand, there is a reason we don't play Eladamri's Vineyard.Well, maybe it's because Vineyard doesn't kill creatures? :D Nevermind, just joking :D

Path of Exile looks highly playable, at least in some metagames.
Is 1 basic land worth 4 life? And vice versa? (most common target of StP is without any doubt 4/5 Tarmogoyf)

So far, I stay open for PoE. Time (and playtesting) will show us more... it is at least quite near the StP power level (as currently spoiled), which is thing we can't say just everyday.

[conboy31]

Bolas looks like he will be a blast to play. I am not sure as of yet how to do so before being at -47 life. Paging through mgcardsinfo the best i've come up with happens to also be on color ... Jhoira of the Ghitu :rolleyes: . Off color: Eureka.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm really not sure about Path. It might be good. But on the other hand, there is a reason we don't play Eladamri's Vineyard.
Call me crazy, but unless my opponent is seriously mana screwed, I'd rather they had a basic Island than a Tarmogoyf.

Also Rhino-Exalted-Birds seems really strong (leaning rare on this one). For one thing, it means you'll always win Goyf wars when on the offensive, and Mongeese will be big enough to plow through singleton Mishra's Factories alive. Unfortunately, I doubt it'll be useful outside of Survival since I can't see a deck that would want to make use of those three colors and would want a mana producer (though maybe some :b::g::w: Rock decks will run it and just not use the blue).

If Bolas is true, I'm picking up a foil one for my Sedris EDH deck. (EDIT: He'll probably have starting loyalty of something retarded like 1 or 2, though. *frown* )

[Sims]

For some reason I cannot imagine Bolas to have a high starting Loyalty if his first ability is a +3 and destroys non-creature permanents. Yeah, it won't kill your opponents goyf (though it might steal it), but it will destroy their CB, lands, crucibles, survivals, stax, trinispheres, moxen, etc...

Yeah, the cost is very high and I cannot think of many ways to cheat it into play, which leads me to believe he'll be fun as hell in casual games and drafts if not in constructed....

Can Planeswalkers be EDH Generals? :)

[Aggro_zombies]

For some reason I cannot imagine Bolas to have a high starting Loyalty...
Well, there is some evidence based on flavor that it won't be. The flavor behind planeswalker cards is that they're supposed to be allies you call to help fight on your side. Bolas is ancient, evil, and absurdly powerful. Somehow, I would think that he'd only help you if it amused him or if he got something out of it.

[Giles]

My jaw just fucking droped when I saw Path of Exile.
Because life does equate to a turn thus a land.


EDIT- Thinking for a little bit, it is not like STP at all. Stp is more for control, while Path of Exile is for aggro decks and combo. Wow. Just Wow.

[Jaynel]

My jaw just fucking droped when I saw Path of Exile.
Because life does equate to a turn thus a land.

I'm not so sure about that, but it seems a LOT better against Team America, 4c Landstill, Ichorid, et al. It's also MUCH better for aggressive decks like Zoo to utilize over Swords.

[Elfrago]

It's also MUCH better for aggressive decks like Zoo to utilize over Swords.

No fucking way, if I'm playing Zoo I absolutely dont want to give a basic land to the control player sitting front of me.

[Infinitium]

The problem with Path is in it's narrow application; whereas Swords can be used by aggro and tempo decks Path is more or less confined to control after the 4-of Swords quota has been met. Definetly not a 4-of in any deck in any case.

[Sims]

No fucking way, if I'm playing Zoo I absolutely dont want to give a basic land to the control player sitting front of me.

Outside of maybe MUC, with the way people build their decks in this format, your opponent likely won't even have a basic to fetch with PoE if you off their creature.

I've seen decklists for 4c Thresh where the manabases are 6 duals, 8 fetches, and 4 wastes. I'd cast PoE on that all day long.

[scrumdogg]

Outside of maybe MUC, with the way people build their decks in this format, your opponent likely won't even have a basic to fetch with PoE if you off their creature.

I've seen decklists for 4c Thresh where the manabases are 6 duals, 8 fetches, and 4 wastes. I'd cast PoE on that all day long.

Team America also currently has no basics so besides this & 4-5c Thresh (two of the better & more popular decks in the format) there are a ton of others that also would not benefit from PoE - Ichorid, Affinity, fair number of Zoo variants, etc etc. I need to go check Gatherer & see if Show & Tell has been updated to let you put a planeswalker into play...we can hope... The other hopeful option is an enabler that lets you sac 3 critters & put it into play ala Godsire's & Sphinxes & Prince of Thrall's l'il friends. They haven't yet done that for a planeswalker admittedly, but they haven't made a planeswalker this expensive (and juicy) yet either.

EDIT: Dammit, Show & Tell doesn't list planeswalker as an option on Gatherer...

[The Legacy Weapon]

You know, they may surprise us and put extra text on Nicol Bolas that says, Nicol Bolas cannot be attacked by creatures without flying.

[Captain Hammer]

That neo swords seems absurdly awesome.

Yes, I would probably play it fast aggro decks over Swords. Simply put, when my opponent is at five life but has a Goyf in play to chump my own Goyf, I would rather give them an island to be able to kill them that same turn, than have to wait two turns for it.

And if the card standing in the way of me being able to kill them is a Dreadnought, it's really a no brainer which card I prefer.

I would play it along side Swords, perhaps 3 of each or something. Against big dudes like Goyf, Tombstalker, and Dreadnought, I would rather have them get a land than gain a massive amount of life. And StP is simply better against small dudes. Plus, the ability to play 8 Swords could well just step the growth in popularity of aggro control back to pre-Goyf/Dreadnought/Tomstalker levels.

The real question is, is the card real. The only link anyone here managed to post was to a thread on gleemax.

That's good and all, but that gleemax thread was entirely dependent on a salvation rumor, and yet refused to provide a link to the actual salvation thread being talked about.

So has anyone seen what the rumor from the actual source actually said, anyone have a link to the correct salvation thread? Because it sure doesn't seem to be on the first page of the rumor mill.

[quicksilver]

"if this card is better than swords, then it's probably not real"

[Peter_Rotten]

My bet is that PoE is not spoiled correctly. It probably says something to the effect of "Remove target creature that damaged you this turn from the game." The card (as worded currently) is too powerful for standard and an StP rival for Legacy.

[Elfrago]

Outside of maybe MUC, with the way people build their decks in this format, your opponent likely won't even have a basic to fetch with PoE if you off their creature.

I've seen decklists for 4c Thresh where the manabases are 6 duals, 8 fetches, and 4 wastes. I'd cast PoE on that all day long.

With all the moons and the non-basic hate around, most of the decks have at least a couple of basics (and often more).

Those without are decks who really do not care (Ichorid and AN combo) and decks with a very stretched mana-base.
Still, those decks are a minority of what you can expect to face in a normal Legacy tournament.

And try cast the new StP on a Lackey.:tongue:
This will definitely see some play as swords 5-8, but is no-fucking-way better than STP.


My bet is that PoE is not spoiled correctly. It probably says something to the effect of "Remove target creature that damaged you this turn from the game." The card (as worded currently) is too powerful for standard and an StP rival for Legacy.

IMHO, it's real.
Keep in mind that Wizards has been printing GOOD white removal in the latests sets.
We had Unmake, which was good for standard, and we had Oblivion Ring twice, wich sees play in legacy.

[Soulles]

Another 1 mana instant that removes a creature from the game might be to overpowerd to print.

I have to see and hold this card in mine hand before believing it.

[Jade]

IMHO, it's real.
Keep in mind that Wizards has been printing GOOD white removal in the latests sets.
We had Unmake, which was good for standard, and we had Oblivion Ring twice, wich sees play in legacy.

They also print better creatures from set to set. I think the card is real too, and it's imo not to strong for standard, especially while they're pushing the Domain-theme.

[Sek'Kuar]

Here's hoping it's real. It would mean a STP variant that I could actually get my hands on/afford.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I hope it's a Sorcery. I like Burning Wish-able, cheap removal.
Here's hoping it's real. It would mean a STP variant that I could actually get my hands on/afford.Swords is pretty cheap. You can pick up a play set for $4 easy. This is probably going to be a good deal more costly then Swords for some time.

[KillemallCFH]

Here's hoping it's real. It would mean a STP variant that I could actually get my hands on/afford.You know StP is like a $2 card, right?

[AngryTroll]

I hope it's a Sorcery. I like Burning Wish-able, cheap removal.

That would be ridiculous. Hmm...Chainer's Edict? Deathmark? This would be SO much better. I've been waiting for them to print a Sorcery speed Swords for ages and ages-they keep doing slightly tuned down Swords at Instant speed with Condemn and Reciprocate.

Come on people, really, play some basics. Please. That's the main reason I've never been too wild about 5c Thresh; in UGw I always run at least 4.

[Sims]

There was a link posted in this thread to the Nicol Bolas semi-spoiler thread (which Zesty is not going to finish, since it's WotC's baby, he wasn't going to give the starting loyalty or final ability) where right in the first post he dropped PoE. One sec I'll dig it up...




So again I wasn't able to give you all of Nicol, here is the STP.

Path of Exile (W)
Instant
Remove target creature from the Game. That Creatures controller may search for a basic land card and put that card into play tapped. Shuffle that library afterwards.

Merry Christmas!!!!!

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=142400

[yurivish]

"if this card is better than swords, then it's probably not real"

It's better in Legacy under some circumstances. But is it better in Block? (This is an honest question; I'm not very familiar with the format. Perhaps mana development is a big advantage?)

[Bardo]

Usually, I'd rather give my opponent the life then more land. There are also those fringe occasions when you need to StP your own dude (usually vs. Burn) to survive another turn.

Like, control vs. control, life totals are one of the least relevant aspects of game; land, on the other hand usually decides it, and card draw.

[Illissius]

Call me crazy, but unless my opponent is seriously mana screwed, I'd rather they had a basic Island than a Tarmogoyf.

I'd rather they had neither, which you can achieve by playing any other removal spell that kills Tarmogoyf besides Path of Exile. Sure, it costs one mana. Even ignoring Swords to Plowshares' existence, would you rather pay an extra mana or give your opponent a land? In the early game (the first two, maybe three turns), mana development and tempo are all-important. If you give your opponent opponent a free land at this point, they will bury you. (Remember how good (original, Vintage) Moxen are? This is a Mox which doesn't even cost your opponent a card -- you could pretend that it cantrips.) Later in the game, the extra land won't be as important, but you'll also have a lot more mana available for a more expensive removal spell.

The one strength of Path is its versatility. Like Swords, it targets any creature and removes it from the game. Looking at it as a mid-to-late game removal spell, it might even be better than, say, Unmake. And if your opponent is going get to use their new land two or fewer times (also aided by not giving them life), it's actually better from a tempo perspective. But the set of scenarios where you can ensure that your opponent will be dying that quickly seems fairly narrow to me. (Otherwise, if you could reliably finish opponents off with just a little bit of extra, free tempo, then Pacts would be insane.) But anyways, I don't see why aggro decks would want to play removal which only becomes good later in the game in the first place, and control decks don't care about giving their opponents life. (That's for formats where Swords to Plowshares is legal. It might be good in smaller formats, solely because you can't get even two mana removal spells which can kill any targetable creature -- no, not even Terminate, any more.)

So in sum, in the early game, Path of Exile is absolutely worse than Swords to Plowshares and even various two mana removal spells. In the later game, it's competitive, but still worse than Swords to Plowshares for decks which would want to play either. One place you can definitely earmark it for, though, is the Cunning Wish sideboard, where versatility and inexpensiveness are the most important criteria, where it will see use later in the game by the nature of how Wishes are used, and because no one wants to sideboard their fourth Swords to Plowshares.

(As for the drawback being negated against decks without basics, sure. But Ghost Quarter doesn't see widespread play either.)

[rsaunder]

I think it shouldn't be a direct comparison to STP but rather "do you want STP's 5-8?"

I think that in certain decks, that answer is 'VERY YES." Especially with TA rearing its ugly head.

[Bardo]

I think it shouldn't be a direct comparison to STP but rather "do you want STP's 5-8?"

I think that in certain decks, that answer is 'VERY YES." Especially with TA rearing its ugly head.

Vs. TA, Condemn is just as good. That Tombstalker isn't in there for defense.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Vs. TA, Condemn is just as good. That Tombstalker isn't in there for defense.

Except for giving them six life.

[Illissius]

I think it shouldn't be a direct comparison to STP but rather "do you want STP's 5-8?"


Then the comparison is to Smother, Diabolic Edict, Runed Halo, Condemn, and also Vindicate, Oblivion Ring, Engineered Explosives, and so on. Again, Path of Exile is terrible in the early game*. I'm far from certain that Path can win this fight, either, though it's worth consideration.

* though admittedly better than a spell you can't cast yet, or the second half of those

[Bardo]

Except for giving them six life.

Aside from Tomby being a 5/5, I meant vs. TA, Condemn is functionally StP 5-8 and still not good enough to see competitive play. In most match-ups, giving your opponent some life is a better deal then giving them another land in play.

[Pinder]

Ghost Quarter isn't seeing much play for a good reason.

I don't think that's an entirely fair comparison, though. With Ghost Quarter, you're using a card to get rid of a land, and then they get a land. With PoE, you're getting rid of a creature, and then they get a land. I would posit that the creature you got rid of was a lot more relevant than whatever land you took out with Ghost Quarter. Getting rid of their Dual and letting them get a basic is a lot worse than getting rid of their threat and letting them get a basic.

In control, Condemn is likely better than PoE, just because you're playing reactively and answering their threats with it. Life total is essentially irrelevant, and if something attacks you can get rid of it, and if it doesn't you don't really care. Like most people I think PoE will be most exciting in some sort of Zoo, where you can remove blockers to let your dudes get through without counteracting your game plan by giving them life.

[frogboy]

I'm with Bardo on this one, although I think Exile is better than Condemn because it can kill random utility creatures that never actually attack you.

[Bardo]

I don't think that's an entirely fair comparison, though. With Ghost Quarter, you're using a card to get rid of a land, and then they get a land. With PoE, you're getting rid of a creature, and then they get a land. I would posit that the creature you got rid of was a lot more relevant than whatever land you took out with Ghost Quarter.
I agree the comparison isn't fair, which is why I deleted it from my post above. :)

At to the card overall, even in Zoo, I've tested StP, but end up replacing them with more burn. Removing larger blockers can be helpful (mainly Goyfs), but you can never point StP at your opponent's head. And burn is what you want to be drawing in a stalled mid-game, not some defensive white spell.

[Atwa]

The real question is, is the card real. The only link anyone here managed to post was to a thread on gleemax.
I posted a link on page 3 to the salvaton thread. It's same post as with the Nicol Bolas picture.

[Nihil Credo]

I'm on the fence about the Path of Exile rumour. I am pretty sure that no non-red deck will want it (only an aggro deck could be interested, and all nonred aggro decks that I know of rely on some form of mana denial or Chalice), except as a Wish target or in a meta where you should play Dragon Stompy anyway. For red decks, I can't think of any argument for either side that can't be defeated - I guess I'll enjoy testing it without a cognitive bias. But I'm going to make this observation: Swords to Plowshares has always been a heavily controversial card in Zoo and Boros decks; to become a staple choice, Path of Exile doesn't just have to edge out StP, it needs to be much better - and that looks very difficult.

I'll also note that Pathing to Exile your own creatures in response to removal or combat damage looks like it would be a respectable play choice in several circumstances. Against mana denial decks, for example, or in response to Blood Moon (fetch basic Forest for Grip / Island for BEB), or in any match where creature removal is less valuable than Rampant Growth (generally those where you side out Swords to Plowshares), plus random strange circumstances (say, facing three Threshed Mongeese and missing a colour to cast Pernicious Deed).


Meanwhile, it's Christmas sales time on classic artifacts:

Scepter of Insight 1UU
Artifact
3U, http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manat.gif: Draw a card

Scepter of Dominance 1WW
Artifact
W, http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manat.gif: Tap target permanent

Scepter of Fugue BB
Artifact
1B, http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manat.gif: Target player discards a card. Play this only as a sorcery.


I don't see any use for Discount Jayemdae Tome. I'd be interested in maybe sideboarding Discount Disrupting Scepter for control mirrors, but I'd wonder why not play Nezumi Shortfang instead. Discount Icy Manipulator... had it been priced 2W, I'd be testing it in Stax right now; as it is, at best it can hope to become a tech piece in Quinn. Or perhaps Dutch Stax can support the mana cost better.

[Aggro_zombies]

Meanwhile, it's Christmas sales time on classic artifacts:

Scepter of Insight 1UU
Artifact
3U, http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manat.gif: Draw a card

Scepter of Dominance 1WW
Artifact
W, http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manat.gif: Tap target permanent

Scepter of Fugue BB
Artifact
1B, http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manat.gif: Target player discards a card. Play this only as a sorcery.
Except they're not really discount because they cost colored mana now, making them basically infinitely worse than their more expensive but more broadly playable cousins.

Wizards really should have come up with a better theme for Esper than "everything is an enchantment".

EDIT: Illisius - I know that, but I was looking at PoE in the absolute sense. It's obviously worse than just about every removal spell commonly played in this format (expect maybe against Aluren?). I don't think it'll be good in Standard even if domain isn't pushed that hard, simply because the one deck it would be really good against - Demigod - runs pretty much all basics anyway...though that might be totally irrelevant simply because getting rid of their Demigod is that important. I don't know much about Extended, but I can't see this taking much of a bite out of Elves!, although it might be useful against Zoo (does that see any play?).

[morgan_coke]

you're not supposed to cast any of them. you're supposed to fetch them with tezzie. at least in std/ext.

[spirit of the wretch]

Wall of Reverence 3W
Creature - Wall
Defender, flying
At the end of your turn, gain life equal to the power of a creature you control.
1/6

Meh...

[Artowis]

Path of Exile probably won't see a ton of play in block / T2, because letting them ramp up with free land in exchange for knocking a Finks or Rhox War Monk out of the way isn't really conductive to winning. In Extended there's a much better reason to do so because for a variety of decks it's a super easy answer to giant Affinity monsters or a turn 1 Deus of Calamity with practically 0 drawback. Even when played fairly, I'd usually rather pay one mana to hit Goyf or Mistbind Clique and let my opp. ramp by one basic than pay the full amount to kill one of those creatures fairly.

In Vintage letting the opp ramp up a basic is basically meaningless unless it's a drain mirror. Legacy I'd be hard pressed to say if it's fine without looking closely at the deck / metagame.

[Nydaeli]

It's a real shame that Land Tax is banned. Path of Exile would be pretty much nuts in Parfait.

[wolfstorm]

I found it here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=142400). It seems the source is reliable. He is also holding a puzzle at the moment about Nicol Bolas. If the things he claims are true, this set is going to be ridiculous.

True, Bolas is God, but this strong? It's really sick.

Here is how far they are with puzzling:
http://www.dragonguardian.com/mtgblog/wp-content/uploads/nicol-bolas-planeswalker-most.jpg

Eureka + this version of Nicol Bolas would be pretty nifty.

[Gheizen64]

Fast way to play bolas:

nightscape familiar + manamorphose + ritual
nightscape familiar + mana flare
squandered resources
cheating

nothing else come to mind right now.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Turn 6 with Coffers.

[Jak]

Shit just put that beast in Burning Tog. Tier 1.

[Elfrago]

In Vintage letting the opp ramp up a basic is basically meaningless unless it's a drain mirror. Legacy I'd be hard pressed to say if it's fine without looking closely at the deck / metagame.

Well, giving TPS an extra mana to work with is not good...

[Apex]

But the only creature you would be removing against TPS is what? Colossus? In that scenario, I think even for TPS mirrors, giving my opponent 1 extra basic is better than them gaining 11 life. 11 life is 6 more storms or another turn if I go with my own Colossus (but then again, this is kind of irrelevant, since who the hell would side in this in TPS mirrors?).

[Elfrago]

But the only creature you would be removing against TPS is what? Colossus? In that scenario, I think even for TPS mirrors, giving my opponent 1 extra basic is better than them gaining 11 life. 11 life is 6 more storms or another turn if I go with my own Colossus (but then again, this is kind of irrelevant, since who the hell would side in this in TPS mirrors?).

I'm talking about the european version, wich usually plays Dark Confidant.

[Barook]

Eureka + this version of Nicol Bolas would be pretty nifty.

Too bad that neither Eureka nor Show and Tell could put it into play. :rolleyes:

Are there any other ways to cheat it into play other than the Hideaway lands?

Anyway, it would be interesting to see its base loyality and what its ultimate ability is, considering the source stated that it will be even more devestating than Cruel Ultimatum.

[Jaiminho]

Too bad that neither Eureka nor Show and Tell could put it into play. :rolleyes:

Eureka puts permanent cards into play and Planeswalkers are permanents.

[Barook]

Well, that part of MWS wasn't updated - my bad.

[Captain Hammer]

I think you guys are seriously underestimating the usefulness of trading one of your creatures headed to the yard for a land early on (which seems to happen a lot these days to counter infestation of big threats in the format). A 1cc Mox Sapphire is still ridiculously powerful in legacy. You're almost time walking yourself for just one mana. I can see myself using it for that purpose almost as often as I use it as removal.

Early on, Path usually targets your own guys headed for the yard to serve as acceleration. Late game, it targets your opponents biggest threats. Either case seems pretty useful in a Zoo type deck.


Usually, I'd rather give my opponent the life then more land. There are also those fringe occasions when you need to StP your own dude (usually vs. Burn) to survive another turn.

Like, control vs. control, life totals are one of the least relevant aspects of game; land, on the other hand usually decides it, and card draw.

Doesn't that depend on how much life, how late in the game it is, and the overall circumstances.

I mean, I would almost always prefer to give my opponent an extra land drop than 12 life! Even giving them six life for a Goyf is a lot. Also, I wouldn't even want to give my opponent a single point of life if that life point means I won't be able to strike for lethal damage the same turn I took out their potential blocker. Later on in the game, giving a land drop seems to matter less. And as always, there's a couple of decks that don't play lands altogther.

And of course, given the right circumstances, Path of Exile serves as acceleration.

I don't think Path of Exile replaces StP, but it does supplement it really well.

[Jaynel]

Path to Exile has been added to the spoiler as an UNCOMMON. Holy smokes.

[Elfrago]

You can go either way on this.

Early on, you could target a creature of your own with lethal damage on the stack to get an extra land drop essentially time walk yourself for just one mana.
[...]
Also, I wouldn't even want to give my opponent a single point of life if that life point means I won't be able to strike for lethal damage the same turn I took out their potential blocker. Later on in the game, giving a land drop seems to matter less. And as always, there's a couple of decks that don't play lands altogther.

And of course, given the right circumstances, Path of Exile gives you a free land drop in exchange for a creature that's already headed to the graveyard.


The problem is that those situation are far less likely to happen than those in wich StP is better.
For example lets consider the second one, it is far more common to have to play a StP on a creature and NOT being able to swing for lethal in the same turn. And in this situation StP is MUCH better.

And if your deck is so tempo-oriented than a few more life-points are usually a concern, then you should probably play Snuff Out.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think you guys are seriously underestimating the usefulness of trading one of your creatures headed to the yard for a land early on (which seems to happen a lot these days to counter infestation of big threats in the format). A 1cc Mox Sapphire is still ridiculously powerful in legacy. You're almost time walking yourself for just one mana. I can see myself using it for that purpose almost as often as I use it as removal.

Early on, Path usually targets your own guys headed for the yard to serve as acceleration. Late game, it targets your opponents biggest threats. Either case seems pretty useful in a Zoo type deck.

Which is why Search for Tomorrow is tearing up the metagame?

I can see times where I might use this card on my own creatures, but they would be rare.

And control decks pretty much would always rather give you the life than the land.

[Captain Hammer]

Which is why Search for Tomorrow is tearing up the metagame?

That's a poor comparison if I've ever heard one for a lot of reasons. But since you brought it up.

If Search for Tommorrow turned into StP mid-late game, and whenever you need removal, it would see play.

In fact, if Search for Tommorrow was in a more control oriented color like blue or white, rather than the color that least needs mana acceleration, I bet it would see play.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Don't get me wrong, killing an opponent's creatures is good. That's why I expect the card to see play.

I just think you're hyping the ability to zap your own guys if and when they die. It's no more a selling point for the card than Goblin Piledriver had everyone saying, "Holy shit! Protection from Blue! That means it can't be blocked by Merfolk!"

Actually, green is the color that most needs tempo control, really. It is the absolute worst color for getting ahead in the tempo race, excepting maybe in Enchantress. The problem with green is that Wizards still looks at it like slowing an opponent down is in a separate, walled off category from speeding yourselves up, which it's not. White, black and blue all have better "acceleration" than green, it just takes the form of slowing the other guy down.

What green should really be the color of is liquidity. More and better card drawing/manipulation. But that's a sidebar conversation.

[Happy Gilmore]

http://www.dragonguardian.com/mtgblog/wp-content/uploads/nicol-bolas-planeswalker-most.jpg

What the hell does ? mean in the loyalty?

I'm skeptical...look at both the lack of an artist's name and being 12/15 in the set.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I'm skeptical...look at both the lack of an artist's name and being 12/15 in the set.That's not the final picture of the card. That's a rendering with the currently known information.

[Kuma]

What Path to Exile needs to be at maximum effectiveness is a deck that:

- Runs basics
- Runs creatures
- Runs four StP
- Has bad matchups against creature based decks that don't run/aren't greatly helped by basics (Aggro Loam? 42 Land? Multi-colored Dreadstill? Team America?)

It's probably a sideboard card at best, but I'm still getting a four pack.

[ssilver]

UW Merfolk could probably use this card the best... the whole problem with Stp in that deck was the lifegain.

[URABAHN]

What Path to Exile needs to be at maximum effectiveness is a deck that:

- Runs basics
- Runs creatures
- Runs four StP
- Has bad matchups against creature based decks that don't run/aren't greatly helped by basics (Aggro Loam? 42 Land? Multi-colored Dreadstill? Team America?)

It's probably a sideboard card at best, but I'm still getting a four pack.

I'm not sure I understand. If you're packing Path to Exile, are you saying you should be also be packing Basic Land, Creatures, 4x StP, and bad matchups...*snip*?

[Cabal-kun]

UW Merfolk could probably use this card the best... the whole problem with Stp in that deck was the lifegain.

Right. Because the lifegain they get off of StP totally negates the damage from 8 Lords and Wake Thrasher.

[Jak]

Is there a deck that would want/need StP 5-8?

[Kuma]

I'm not sure I understand. If you're packing Path to Exile, are you saying you should be also be packing basic land, creatures, 4x StP, and bad matchups...*snip*?

No, I'm saying the card will be at its best in a deck with basic land and creatures, so that it can make use of the ability to find land by targeting its own creatures.

I can't think of any deck that would run this over StP, hence the 4x StP.

Path to Exile would improve the matchups I listed, hence a deck needing to improve those matchups would benefit most from Path to Exile.

[Atwa]

BTW, Path of Exile has been confirmed now as I posted it in this tread with as rarity uncommon.

Just so you know you won't have to put out a lot of cash to get a playset of semi-swords.

[Jak]

Right now in Legacy there seems to be a lot of decks that have low curves. TA, Dreadstill, Thresh, etc. Is it really that bad giving them a basic Island (or even none at all sometimes)? They may be able to chain a few more cantrips, but is it that bad?

Against decks like Goblins it could be worse. Allowing them to ramp up Ringleader or SGC mana faster, but you are getting rid of that Lackey that would put them into play faster or that Warchief which is already making their creatures cheaper and faster.

Agaist control like Landstill or ITF, they may be able to take advantage of an additional land early, but they won't be playing their Goyfs early. In the later stages of the game, will giving them a 6th land really affect the game more than removing the Goyf? Or getting rid of a Factory to search up a basic?

I obviously think Path of Exile is good. Not better than Swords but much better than the alternatives being thrown around. If you run white I think it would be pretty stupid to not run both StP and PoE.

[Aggro_zombies]

This just in from Salvation: one of Blood Tyrant's abilities (the :4::u::b::r: Vampire rare from Conflux's Grixis intro pack) reads something along the lines of "Whenever a player loses the game, put 5 +1/+1 counters on Blood Tyrant."

Depending on what else it does, it may end up in my EDH deck. Multiplayer goodness, it's awwwwight!

[Apex]

That would actually make for a pretty decent general (it sounds legendary enough), though I don't know if it's better than Nicol Bolas.

Though you have to wonder how its ability gets triggered. I mean, like, how fast is conceding the game? Does state-based effect even check for concession?

[Aggro_zombies]

That would actually make for a pretty decent general (it sounds legendary enough), though I don't know if it's better than Nicol Bolas.

Though you have to wonder how its ability gets triggered. I mean, like, how fast is conceding the game? Does state-based effect even check for concession?
Legendary creatures are mythic rares these days, and as far as we know they don't put mythics in intro packs.

Also, I have no idea, but I have a feeling that anytime a player leaves the game for any reason it'll count as a loss for this card's purposes.

[Kuma]

That seems way to narrow to see print as worded. It doesn't even work with Lich's Mirror.

[Pinder]

That seems way to narrow to see print as worded. It doesn't even work with Lich's Mirror.

It wouldn't be the first time they printed a card that worked better specifically in a multiplayer game, though. Just look at Imperial Mask (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/23.html).

And I'm pretty sure that Blood Tyrant would be awesome in Type 4 multiplayer as well.

[Aggro_zombies]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3457433&postcount=1

REPRINTSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Also, Domain is an ability word now a la Sweep and Hellbent.

So Extended players will be happy they're getting Gaea's Might all over again, but counting the reprinting of the Invasion protection bears cycle, we're up to 10 confirmed "reprints" out of 145 cards total. I say "reprints" here because only a few of these are actual reprints while the others are functional reprints, but that doesn't do anything to mitigate the impression that the design here is rather lazy, at least on the common level. I don't normally count the number of reprints per set, but it seems that the set size here has decreased while the number of reprints has gone up...is anyone else getting this impression? Perhaps R&D has concluded that the remaining design space for commons is almost exhausted, and therefore the only solution is to make all of the commons reprints and focus on higher rarities.

In b4 shark jumping.

[Elfrago]

We now can play 8 Gaea's Might. Could be interesting. But probably not.

[Nihil Credo]

I don't think we'll see many lists with eight of them, but since it was an auto 4-of in Domain Zoo (both Extended and Legacy), 5-6 seems likely.

[Roman Candle]

I'm pretty tired right now, but I'm pretty sure the wording on Might of Alara doesn't make any sense... Gaea's Might says "Target creature gets +1/+1 for each basic land type among lands you control." Might of Alara says "Target creature gets +X/+X until end of turn for each basic land type among lands you control."

[Barook]

The far more interesting question is if we get a functional Tribal Flames reprint as well.

[Captain_Morgan]

The major thing I dislike about these reprints really is that there's nothing really "new." I actually liked Time Spiral's approach to commons, going back and reintroducing old concepts but adding variety. It was like the first inclination I got when I saw "Rebels" or "Changeling," it was fun at least for a bit to be able to alter an old deck to maybe bring it to tier 2 status. Rest of the "reprints" don't even add much variety even in their creature types.

Anyone for a scout deck?

[ParkerLewis]

The major thing I dislike about these reprints really is that there's nothing really "new."

Blah blah blah. Here :) . (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/17)

[Captain_Morgan]

Blah blah blah. Here :) . (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/17)

The issue isn't so much lack of design space, but lack of support for older strategies. Let me put this simply into perspective:

26 Changelings
52 Rebels
377 Soldiers
285 Goblins
116 Merfolks
220 Zombies

The question I'd pose is why is there a Tier 1 Goblin deck, Tier 2 Merfolk, and yet no soldier nor rebel and barely a style for Zombie decks beyond Tier 2.5 at the tournament level?

I'd say to be honest, there's a real lack of fleshing out certain tribal types for instance. Zombies lack a decent curb with most competing for 3cc slot, but has a ton of lords. Rebels lacks speed and lacks other synergistic equipment and spells to play into it, like Slivers has with blue slivers and FoW. Soldiers lacks early meat and evasion to mass destruction, plus red just swarms better.

Now make the BW as:

Vedalken Outlander
Creature - Vedalken Scout
Protection from green
2/2

Into:

Vedalken Outlander
Creature- Vedalken Scout Rebel
Protection from green.
2/2

The biggest change now is that:

A) Can be tutored out
B) Gives another answer to block or evade Tarmogoyf and mongeese for rebels
C) Can pitch to FoW

Now this isn't some revolutionary tech, nor inciting a crippling blow to standard for including an older creature type that's more useful. It's taking a simple, older strategy and giving it some new thought like they did in Time Spiral.

There are more examples, but this is one of the more obvious ones. We have the meat, we just need the potatos to bring some decks out the basement of Tier 3 into Tier 2 status. This includes several other deck types that aren't "quite good enough, but need that 1 or two cards" to make it sing." More useless or marginally questionable reprints, means less new deck types.

[Alfred]

Good post Morgan, I agree. I think anyone who has been playing magic long enough has attempted to build a soldier deck at one point, and realized that it just isn't good enough. There are some good soldiers, and the curve is okay-ish, but there just isn't enough synergy to make it worth it.

I'd love to see a few more (or maybe one blockbuster) card that could push soldiers into the playable realm.

Rebels, on the other hand, I could do without.

[rleader]

I quit magic in about 1996 and started up again about two years ago: I saw Soltari Guerillas and thought they were badass (in conjunction with soldier lords, equipment), and made a deck. It was garbage, although I didn't really know it, since the tribal power was still a lot higher than any creature strategy back in the day. (Although I did T8 a RAV-TSP standard tournament with most of the same cards: Sunhome Enforcer + Fieldmarshal>Elephant Tokens.)

The problem with soldiers is that you have to overextend in order to beat aggro-control, while your own control elements are substandard (I can tap stuff, wee), and that's discounting the standard problems aggro decks have against combo. Soldiers pretty much only has the same options that Death and Taxes has, which are pretty limited, and without Cataclysm at that.

Hell, they even gave Druids a combo-finish with a lord (although your deck is next to worthless if you don't land it), which is what I think a lot of the tribes need. Goblins and Elves can both combo out, but their pieces aren't generally worthless if it doesn't happen.

I kind of like Zombies now: Deathtouch is a wicked ability given how few threats some decks run. But still, so slow.

[Captain_Morgan]

Rebels, on the other hand, I could do without.

To be honest, I just enjoyed saying after a WoG or some mass removal hit, "Don't worry the south shall rise again!" Then playing a Ramosian Sergeant.

[Infinitium]

I'm actually banking on a nice, fat rhino soldier in the 2W range in order to flesh out my Soldier Stompy deck (which is surprisingly decent in all; it has a lot of cards that approximates Goblins and TriniChalice/Equipment is rad in this format).

[DalkonCledwin]

did we really need another removal spell on the caliber of Swords to Plowshares?


Path to Exile
W
Remove Target Creature from the game. It's controller may search his or her library for a basic land card, put it into play tapped, then shuffle his or her library.

Yeah, that means the "Remove Target Creature from the Game" removal spells for a single white mana has gone up to 8 cards, that just sucks.... Now decks can run a 2:2 Split, or a 4:4 split, or even a 3:1 split... or some variation there of.

Please note, I do believe that this is a very real card... I just do not like the fact that it exists...

[ParkerLewis]

did we really need another removal spell on the caliber of Swords to Plowshares?



Yeah, that means the "Remove Target Creature from the Game" removal spells for a single white mana has gone up to 8 cards, that just sucks.... Now decks can run a 2:2 Split, or a 4:4 split, or even a 3:1 split... or some variation there of.

Please note, I do believe that this is a very real card... I just do not like the fact that it exists...

Why not ? I don't see any kind of problem with it. It's not like any kind of deck would realistically want more than 4 of these effects maindeck, or that it would break anything in half if it does. I also don't understand the problem with anybody being able to do a 3/1 split (or 2/2, or whatever). It's not like it will really change anything the format. At most, it will make white a little better (provided some decks want to run this instead of StP), which is probably a good thing seeing how currently unloved it is.

[DalkonCledwin]

Why not ? I don't see any kind of problem with it. It's not like any kind of deck would realistically want more than 4 of these effects maindeck, or that it would break anything in half if it does. I also don't understand the problem with anybody being able to do a 3/1 split (or 2/2, or whatever). It's not like it will really change anything the format. At most, it will make white a little better (provided some decks want to run this instead of StP), which is probably a good thing seeing how currently unloved it is.

um, yes, there are actually decks that will want more than 4 of these types of cards. For example, Cunning Landstill would love to get their hands on #'s 5-8 of the Swords effects, even if they are relegated to the sideboard. Suffice to say, That I agree now after talking to another person, that this card is probably going to help the format more than hurt it, at least it will shake it up and make cards that normally aren't relevant relevant again.

[Mister Agent]

Why not ? I don't see any kind of problem with it. It's not like any kind of deck would realistically want more than 4 of these effects maindeck, or that it would break anything in half if it does. I also don't understand the problem with anybody being able to do a 3/1 split (or 2/2, or whatever). It's not like it will really change anything the format. At most, it will make white a little better (provided some decks want to run this instead of StP), which is probably a good thing seeing how currently unloved it is.

Path To Exile seems quite strong to me. I wouldn't mind having more then a playset of swords to plowshares to combat opposing Tarmogoyfs. I could see myself casting PTE all day on Team America and Canadian Thresh. I consider PTE as a white elemental blast that says "Remove target Tombstalker and/or Tarmogoyf from play".

[ParkerLewis]

um, yes, there are actually decks that will want more than 4 of these types of cards. For example, Cunning Landstill would love to get their hands on #'s 5-8 of the Swords effects, even if they are relegated to the sideboard. Suffice to say, That I agree now after talking to another person, that this card is probably going to help the format more than hurt it, at least it will shake it up and make cards that normally aren't relevant relevant again.

That's what I meant ; )


Path To Exile seems quite strong to me. I wouldn't mind having more then a playset of swords to plowshares to combat opposing Tarmogoyfs. I could see myself casting PTE all day on Team America and Canadian Thresh. I consider PTE as a white elemental blast that says "Remove target Tombstalker and/or Tarmogoyf from play".

Yes, I agree, the card is good. At worse it's only second to StP, and at best it could be first (depending on decks, matchups, etc). Still, I don't see the additional copies of the effect (ie over 4, be it ptes or stps) being that maindeckable, but now I'm really starting to paraphrase my previous post, so I'll stop there : )

[iOWN]

Esperzoa (2)(U)
Artifact Creature - Jellyfish (U)
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, return an artifact you control to its owner's hand.
4/3

If it's real/spoiled correctly, the drawback is fine in FS.

[Jaynel]

This is a rumored uncommon:

Esperzoa
2U
Artifact Creature - Jellyfish
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, return an artifact you control to its owner's hand.
4/3

More Sea Drakes for Faerie Stompy? More artifact beaters for Deep Blue?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Seeing as how it is an artifact, the draw back is significant. Unless you get out a Chalice, you'll need to return a Mox every turn. That's a great deal of card disadvantage.

EDIT: Oh wait, I was thinking of Mox Diamond. Now it seems pretty good.

[Pinder]

Esperzoa
2U
Artifact Creature - Jellyfish
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, return an artifact you control to its owner's hand.
4/3
...
More artifact beaters for Deep Blue?

It's definitely good enough to replace Somber Hoverguard, IMO. And I really like how the drawback doesn't take effect until the turn after you play it, and even when you have no artifacts, it just bounces back to your hand instead of dying.

That said, are there any reasonably cheap artifacts anyone can think of with really good CiPs that could be repeatedly abused?

edit - Solemn Simulacrum? Tidehollow Sculler, maybe (although that would just allow you to take a new card if you wanted)?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

For CMC <= 2, there's Elsewhere Flask, Tsabo's Web, and Genisis Chamber, I guess.

[Pinder]

For CMC <= 2, there's Elsewhere Flask, Tsabo's Web, and Genisis Chamber, I guess.

:/

[ParkerLewis]

and even when you have no artifacts, it just bounces back to your hand instead of dying.

Ah... didn't notice it was an artifact itself.

Yeah, I knew that was too good to see print.

[Zilla]

That said, are there any reasonably cheap artifacts anyone can think of with really good CiPs that could be repeatedly abused?
Tangle Wire?

[quicksilver]

A flying metal jellyfish?

[Pinder]

Tangle Wire?

You'd still have to tap stuff since they both trigger on upkeep, but between removing a counter and tapping Tanglewire to itself, you essentially only have to tap 2 things while they have to tap 4. And you could always just leave it until right before it dies and bounce it then. Nice find.

edit - And if you were running artifact lands, you could always tap one to Tangle Wire and then pick it up and replay it untapped with the Esperzoa. You'd miss a land drop, but if you didn't already have one coming it's a sound strategy.

[rufus]

That said, are there any reasonably cheap artifacts anyone can think of with really good CiPs that could be repeatedly abused?

How about something like Tangle Wire? This also gives multi-way synergy with Baubles.

Ninja'd.

Also, with Artifact Lands, you could run Stasis.

[conboy31]

That said, are there any reasonably cheap artifacts anyone can think of with really good CiPs that could be repeatedly abused?


I almost did not post this because you said "good", but I will anyways. Jesters Scepter :tongue: That creature just might make my cap deck win more than 5% of its games.

[Jade]

Pentad Prism maybe. Trisk or Duplicant if there's a deck that could play both Esperzoa and one of these - but thats probably not worth it. The artifact lands seem to be the best thing to return.



B) The full blog entry says:
Quote:
"Sorry I,m not good at the English.
and it is Imagin cards.
dont believe!!

I don't know the original blog, so I can't say if that's true or not.
Edit - Oh wait, seems like he just likes to call his spoilers fake for fun. Reliable source then :P

[Apex]

I guess this guy works great with Sigil of Distinction (which already sees some play) and Sanctum Gargoyle in standard. And it could potentially work well with Moxens and Mana Vault in Vintage, since you can techincally get some extra mana out of them, though I don't know if this guy is strong enough for type 1 play.

[Jaynel]

For CMC <= 2, there's Elsewhere Flask, Tsabo's Web, and Genisis Chamber, I guess.

I was thinking more along the lines of SDT or Relic.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Neither of those are particularly good with it, just acceptable due to their low cost. You can't respond to Top's ability by stacking the trigger.
:/I agree, but that's all there is for 'cheap.' The Tangle Wire interaction is interesting. Not great, but interesting.

[Jaynel]

Neither of those are particularly good with it, just acceptable due to their low cost. You can't respond to Top's ability by stacking the trigger.I agree, but that's all there is for 'cheap.' The Tangle Wire interaction is interesting. Not great, but interesting.

Yeah, it's too bad the trigger doesn't target. That would be awesome with SDT.

[AngryTroll]

Tangle Wire?

Holy cow Zilla! That's like a super member necro.

Engineered Explosives costs 0, is useful by itself, and can hang out in play until you decide to set it for something. You don't lose anything except surprise by casting it for zero.

You can also bounce artifact lands. Activate top with a Seat of the Synod during your upkeep, bounce it, replay it. Good in the midgame and lategame, like Quirion Ranger, but really weak early.

[Seriously]

I think you guys are seriously underestimating the usefulness of trading one of your creatures headed to the yard for a land early on (which seems to happen a lot these days to counter infestation of big threats in the format). A 1cc Mox Sapphire is still ridiculously powerful in legacy. You're almost time walking yourself for just one mana. I can see myself using it for that purpose almost as often as I use it as removal.

Early on, Path usually targets your own guys headed for the yard to serve as acceleration. Late game, it targets your opponents biggest threats. Either case seems pretty useful in a Zoo type deck.



Doesn't that depend on how much life, how late in the game it is, and the overall circumstances.

I mean, I would almost always prefer to give my opponent an extra land drop than 12 life! Even giving them six life for a Goyf is a lot. Also, I wouldn't even want to give my opponent a single point of life if that life point means I won't be able to strike for lethal damage the same turn I took out their potential blocker. Later on in the game, giving a land drop seems to matter less. And as always, there's a couple of decks that don't play lands altogther.

And of course, given the right circumstances, Path of Exile serves as acceleration.

I don't think Path of Exile replaces StP, but it does supplement it really well.

best post on this card I've seen yet. basically the same thing I was going to say before coming across this post. I dont know who said this wont see play in type 2, but thats insane.

I dont know why people keep bringing it up that this card is horrible early game. except for maybe a 2nd turn nought, you wouldnt use this early game. goyf cant attack before 3rd turn, providing you didnt have to daze anything. tombstalkers not coming out early either. I'd gladly exchange an opponents mishra's factory for a basic land. this card basically says, I'll trade you your biggest threat on the table for a tapped basic land. most decks dont pack more than 8-12 max serious threats, having 8 swords style cards remove your 8 biggest threats will slow most decks down fast.

goyf, stalker, lackey and nought just got removed from game, whats your plan now ? counter and beat with 1/1s and 2/2s while I still have all my uncountered major threats ?

[Seriously]

Extractor Demon 4BB
Creature - Demon
Flying
Whenever another creature is put into a graveyard from play, you may have target player put the top two cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Unearth 2B



junk.

The EDIT function helps avoid the embarrassing double post.

-PR

[Sek'Kuar]

It seems to me that they are upping the defensive angle of bant in the set. The cards with Exalted that we have seen so far are both defensive, from that rhox guy that acts like a pseudo-BoP, to the new Giltspire Avenger. If the shard continues like that its gonna suck.

[Pinder]

Extractor Demon 4BB
Creature - Demon
Flying
Whenever another creature is put into a graveyard from play, you may have target player put the top two cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Unearth 2B



junk.

No power or toughness? The nutty things R&D is doing with creatures these days....

[Barook]

No power or toughness? The nutty things R&D is doing with creatures these days....
5/5

[Wobbles The Goose]

Extractor Demon 4BB
Creature - Demon
Flying
Whenever another creature is put into a graveyard from play, you may have target player put the top two cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Unearth 2B

5/5

junk.

Actually, this guy is a really interesting addition to a reanimation deck. He's a decent reanimation target in himself, that provides more targets for reanimation spells if unanswered.

Worst case, he's an uncounterable lava axe for 3 that you pitched to your Putrid imp.

Now all you need is a quiet speculation for unearth creatures that's better than buried alive.

[Seriously]

Actually, this guy is a really interesting addition to a reanimation deck. He's a decent reanimation target in himself, that provides more targets for reanimation spells if unanswered.

I have a reanimator deck, but I'd never run that card because its subpar compared to the other cards with better abilities. though at the same time, I dont run my reanimator deck because its subpar to other decks I have.

[Sims]

The Neo-Sea Drake actually could have a lot of solid use in a deck like Deep Blue. Unfortunately that deck seems to be entering the territory of not being able to run Chrome for the first turn sauce like FaeStompy can, however, I think that a card like this could help make the deck more competitive.

At the very least, it makes Mono-U 8-Ball, Tempo Affinity, and the more controlling versions of the deck a bit more beefy.

[rufus]

Extractor Demon looks like it's more of a dredge/ichorid card than a conventional reanimation target.

[Barook]

Wouldn't the consistency of 8x Gaea's Might make Boros Swiftblade a far more viable threat in Domain Zoo?

[Media314r8]

Wouldn't the consistency of 8x Gaea's Might make Boros Swiftblade a far more viable threat in Domain Zoo?

Except that it has to connect in order to do much, having it blocked by a goyf or goose will just force a trade - your gea's might for their guy, or your guy and your gea's might for their counterspell/removal. Danger of cool things.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Malfegor 2RRBB
Legendary Creature - Demon Dragon Mythic
Flying
When Malfegor comes into play, discard your hand. Target opponent sacrifices a creature for each card discarded this way.
6/6
Seems kind of interesting in Ichorid. Guarantees more kills then Eternal Witness into Firestom, but less good and versatile.

[Elfrago]

Something new:

Lapse of Certainty 2W
Instant
Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, put it on top of its owner's library instead of into that player's graveyard.

O_O a white counterspell (sort of)
Thi probably costs a little too much but is a nice design (also comboes with Path!)

[Jaiminho]

It's not a new design. It's an overcosted Memory Lapse. Check the name reference.

[Pinder]

It's not a new design. It's an overcosted Memory Lapse.

In white, though. It's a good thing this didn't cost 2 mana, however. If you could stick it on a Scepter, Quinn would have a field day.

[Sek'Kuar]

I would actually say that considering the new standard for counterspell is :1: :u: :u: , then the new memory lapse, which not only counters a spell, but effectively stalls a draw is more than fair at :2: :w:

[Bryant Cook]

The Neo-Sea Drake actually could have a lot of solid use in a deck like Deep Blue. Unfortunately that deck seems to be entering the territory of not being able to run Chrome for the first turn sauce like FaeStompy can, however, I think that a card like this could help make the deck more competitive.

At the very least, it makes Mono-U 8-Ball, Tempo Affinity, and the more controlling versions of the deck a bit more beefy.

Or... Faerie Stompy could play 8 Sea Drakes! Being able to switch Chalice numbers is also helpful.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, I'd pretty much cut Mox if this replaced Somber Hoverguard in Deep Blue.

On the other hand, it would be possible to fit it in by cutting another slot; There's several spots on the list that are nebulous.

[Pinder]

I would actually say that considering the new standard for counterspell is :1: :u: :u: , then the new memory lapse, which not only counters a spell, but effectively stalls a draw is more than fair at :2: :w:

That's probably true. For what it's worth, Mana Tithe was originally supposed to be a planeshifted Memory Lapse, not Force Spike, so we almost did have a 2 mana white Memory Lapse.

[Aggro_zombies]

A couple of lands. Note that the wording isn't 100% yet:

Rupture Spire
Land
Cipt
When ~ comes into play, pay :1: or sacrifice it.
Tap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

Unstable Frontiers
Land
T: Add :1: to your mana pool.
[cost?], T: Target land (you control?) becomes the basic land type of your choice until end of turn.

Kind of a bummer, if the Spire had been life instead of mana it could have seen play, thought CiPT isn't that great either.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

When the fuck is Wizards going to stop pushing Rainbow decks? Five color decks are inherently uninteresting.

[Aggro_zombies]

When the fuck is Wizards going to stop pushing Rainbow decks? Five color decks are inherently uninteresting.
It makes Limited less frustrating, at least for Sealed. Unless you really luck out, it's hard to build a straight three-color deck in Sealed because of the relatively low density of playable cards in any given tricolor combination, and it's also going to be harder to get adequate mana fixing since you'll only have the tournament pack of Shards to get fetches, CiPT tri-lands, and Obelisks.

May also improve draft slightly, since it's similarly difficult to stay in one shard if anyone else at the table is also in that shard (or if you're in Jund or Naya, since those are the best shards). Unfortunately, I have a feeling these will be uncommon, so I doubt it'll do much since the uncommon mana fixing lands tend to be high picks anyway late in the draft.

[Sek'Kuar]

You know, I can see where in theory Jund and Naya would be the best two shards in limited, especially draft, and they are good, dont get me wrong. However, I have had immense success drafting Grixis. Recursion is unbeatable, especially with Unearth, because an opponent has to decide whether it is better to waste precious removal on a pre-Unearthed creature, only to have it come back, or take the damage. It becomes harder with an Unearthed creature, because of the knowledge that it goes away at the end of the turn anyway. Do you use the removal knowing that it is a waste, or take the damage knowing that it pushes you closer to death? Or maybe my results are skewed by drafting Sedris in two of my 4 Alara drafts, and other good stuff, like Kederekt Leviathan in 3 of them.

[Aggro_zombies]

You know, I can see where in theory Jund and Naya would be the best two shards in limited, especially draft, and they are good, dont get me wrong. However, I have had immense success drafting Grixis. Recursion is unbeatable, especially with Unearth, because an opponent has to decide whether it is better to waste precious removal on a pre-Unearthed creature, only to have it come back, or take the damage. It becomes harder with an Unearthed creature, because of the knowledge that it goes away at the end of the turn anyway. Do you use the removal knowing that it is a waste, or take the damage knowing that it pushes you closer to death? Or maybe my results are skewed by drafting Sedris in two of my 4 Alara drafts, and other good stuff, like Kederekt Leviathan in 3 of them.
Sedris is generally weak, except for being large. Most of the creatures worth unearthing in those colors already have unearth, and they can unearth themselves for cheaper than Sedris can. Jund is generally better because it can use a lot of Grixis's unearth guys while still using retarded cards like Branching Bolt and Sprouting Thrinax. Also, Algal Gharial is a fucking house.

Grixis's guys are generally too small when compared to Naya's. The only thing that makes them better is that they can come back for a turn.

You can do Grixis successfully if you draft a lot of low-cc guys and try for a swarm approach with unearth backup, or if you get really lucky and open good cards.

[Elfrago]

A couple of lands. Note that the wording isn't 100% yet:

Rupture Spire
Land
Cipt
When ~ comes into play, pay :1: or sacrifice it.
Tap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

Unstable Frontiers
Land
T: Add :1: to your mana pool.
[cost?], T: Target land (you control?) becomes the basic land type of your choice until end of turn.

Kind of a bummer, if the Spire had been life instead of mana it could have seen play, thought CiPT isn't that great either.

It has already been confirmed that those are, thogether with Exotic Orchard, part of a 5 card cycle.
So, now we only miss two of those, and I really hope that one of them is legacy playable :tongue: .

[ParkerLewis]

When the fuck is Wizards going to stop pushing Rainbow decks? Five color decks are inherently uninteresting.

I 100 % agree.

I also thank them for having printed Wasteland and it being played in Legacy. And Blood Moon, too.

It also actually forces to make a trade off between power and consitency/resiliency (let's face it, fetches + duals if left unchecked would allow for 5c manabase without any real problem).

On the point of Limited use, well, that's what the Obelisks and other kind of Signet are for, I guess. Mana fixing that actually costs a spell slot (or at least costs more than a 5c land like these).

[Sek'Kuar]

Sedris is generally weak, except for being large. Most of the creatures worth unearthing in those colors already have unearth, and they can unearth themselves for cheaper than Sedris can. Jund is generally better because it can use a lot of Grixis's unearth guys while still using retarded cards like Branching Bolt and Sprouting Thrinax. Also, Algal Gharial is a fucking house.

Grixis's guys are generally too small when compared to Naya's. The only thing that makes them better is that they can come back for a turn.

You can do Grixis successfully if you draft a lot of low-cc guys and try for a swarm approach with unearth backup, or if you get really lucky and open good cards.

Meh. Maybe the people I draft with just suck. (Note to self: Find new draft group.)
Also, I do see your point, so I'm not arguing, as a matter of fact, when playing Alara Block Constructed I play Jund, just because they are my favorite colors. I just have never been passed anything worth playing (for Jund) in a draft, and Grixis has always looked strong for me. Personally I cant stand blue, so I loath to draft it, but I usually get stuck with it. I NEVER draft Bant or Esper, no matter how much fun it could be because I hate Blue and mildly dislike White so I wont play them together. (Azorius was left untouched by me in Dissension.) Its funny, though. There was a draft where a friend of mine pulled a Realm Razer as a first pick, Stating that his Naya deck would "Roxorz my Boxers", and he proceeded to draft a shit deck because that was the only good card from Naya in any of the packs. You know, we really need a draft/limited board.

[Ectoplasm]

You know, we really need a draft/limited board.

I would post there.

Regarding Conflux: It seems like WOTC is continuing with the trend of putting johnny-cards and 'interesting experiments' in the rareslots, so it's no coincidence the first 'hmm that might be playable' card ends up being mythic.
Oh well, at least the exalted BoP looks kind of cool, though I guess it won't see play at all.

[heroicraptor]

Voracious Dragon 3RR
Creature-Dragon
Flying
Devour 1
When Voracious Dragon comes into play, it deals damage equal to twice the number of goblins devoured to target creature or player.
4/4

People are saying that this is good for Goblins.dec in legacy. All I can do is lul at them.

[Illissius]

Malfegor 2RRBB
Legendary Creature - Demon Dragon Mythic
Flying
When Malfegor comes into play, discard your hand. Target opponent sacrifices a creature for each card discarded this way.
6/6

Interesting. Just the other day I was looking for a creature you could reanimate or Show and Tell to save you in situations where you are facing down multiple, large creatures, and all I could find was Blazing Archon. This also fits the bill, albeit at a steep cost.

[Pinder]

Voracious Dragon 3RR
Creature-Dragon
Flying
Devour 1
When Voracious Dragon comes into play, it deals damage equal to twice the number of goblins devoured to target creature or player.
4/4

People are saying that this is good for Goblins.dec in legacy. All I can do is lul at them.

It could be decent as a finisher in some sort of Dirty Kitty-esque Goblin combo deck. I mean, if you didn't just kill them outright, you'd have a huge dude anyway.

Of course, Grapeshot is probably still a cheaper and more resilient win condition.

[Ectoplasm]

Voracious Dragon seems like a Patron of the Akki, but worse.

[Elfrago]

That dragon, in addition to voracius, is unplayable.

[Artowis]

Voracious Dragon 3RR
Creature-Dragon
Flying
Devour 1
When Voracious Dragon comes into play, it deals damage equal to twice the number of goblins devoured to target creature or player.
4/4

People are saying that this is good for Goblins.dec in legacy. All I can do is lul at them.

Card is insane for Jund Tokens in ALA block constructed. That's about it as long as counters exist in other formats.

[Jade]

Card is insane for Jund Tokens in ALA block constructed. That's about it as long as counters exist in other formats.

You know, you devour when it comes into play not when you play it - counters aren't that problematic. Anyway, the card isn't that good and you're right, besides block / limited it won't see any competitive play. Still, It will be a nice addition to my Jund-Highlander. :cool:

[ssilver]

Unstable Frontiers
Land
T: Add to your mana pool.
[cost?], T: Target land (you control?) becomes the basic land type of your choice until end of turn.

Oooh look an anti wasteland card... <---- Not : (
Well... I guess it could be like a sub-optimal port... (Mountain ur Trop during upkeep)

[Hummingbird TG]

Unstable Frontiers
Land
T: Add to your mana pool.
[cost?], T: Target land (you control?) becomes the basic land type of your choice until end of turn.

Oooh look an anti wasteland card...

(Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but I doubt it?)

It says becomes the basic land type of your choice, i.e. in addition to its other types, and if it's nonbasic it would remain such.

[Jaiminho]

(Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but I doubt it?)

It says becomes the basic land type of your choice, i.e. in addition to its other types, and if it's nonbasic it would remain such.

You are correct. A basic land type is either Forest, Plains, Island, Swamp or Mountain. This doesn't mean a land has to be basic to have one or many of these types.

EDIT - I was referring to the "stay non basic" part.

[heroicraptor]

(Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but I doubt it?)

It says becomes the basic land type of your choice, i.e. in addition to its other types, and if it's nonbasic it would remain such.

"Becomes" means that it overrides other types. IF it could target an opponent's land (which it can't), you could lock out a land.

[Artowis]

You know, you devour when it comes into play not when you play it - counters aren't that problematic. Anyway, the card isn't that good and you're right, besides block / limited it won't see any competitive play. Still, It will be a nice addition to my Jund-Highlander. :cool:

Oh I know, I meant more along the lines of why it wouldn't fly as a finisher in say an Extended Goblins deck. Otherwise casting an Empty for 6 guys and following it up with the Dragon would be a hell of a lot simpler than trying to bash through large Zoo monsters three times to win. Unfortunately when Faeries / MUC is your every other match, this plan becomes far worse.

[Carabas]

Cylian Sunsinger 1:g:
Creature - Elf Shaman (rare)
:r::g::w:: ~ and each creature with the same name gets +3/+3 until end of turn.
2/2, art by Jesper Ejsing, number may be 80/145.

Conflux 3:w::u::b::r::g:
Sorcery (mythic)
Search your library for a white card, a blue card, a black card, a red card and a green card. Reveal these cards and put there into your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.
Art by Karl Kopinski, number 102/145.

Martial Coup X:w::w:
Sorcery (rare)
Put X 1/1 white Soldier tokens into play. If X is greater than 4, destroy all other creatures.
Art by Greg Staples, number 11/145.

I can see Martial Coup as possibly having some use, but probably not.

[Aggro_zombies]

I can see Martial Coup as possibly having some use, but probably not.
Mana symbols don't carry over. The elf is 1:g: and :r::g::w: to activate, Conflux is 3:w::u::b::r::g:, and the semi-Wrath is X:w::w:.

EDIT: Scans: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=83906&d=1230973282

[Illissius]

Martial Coup looks pretty damn powerful, actually. Might be too slow for Legacy, but I'm sure it'll find a place in 5C control and Tron in their respective formats.

As for Conflux, WTF? Eight mana and five colors? It might've been decent for less, but considering the hoops you have to jump through, this is just silly. I guess they were too concerned with people chaining them.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

As for Conflux, WTF? Eight mana and five colors? It might've been decent for less, but considering the hoops you have to jump through, this is just silly. I guess they were too concerned with people chaining them.

Yeah it seems to be the expensivest Tutor in magic! But with dreamhalls you just win... but then again there are tons of better combos in vintage : )

[GreenOne]

Martial Coup looks pretty damn powerful, actually.
It could find a place in Rabid Wombat.

[Apex]

Conflux + Dream Halls, shouldn't there exist a chain that's like, instant win? Conflux for Searing Wind (red), Force of Will(blue), Conflux x3. Then pitch Conflux to play Searing Wind, Pitch another Conflux to play Conflux, get another Searing Wind + 4 other cards, some of them gold coloured (with red in them) and play Searing Wind?

Sounds fun enough, maybe spawn a cool casual deck.

Otherwise, how does the Cylian Sunslinger work? Does it only pump itself and other Cylian Sunslingers? So if I have like 2 Tarmogoyfs on the table and activate the ability, it won't pump them right? Kinda confused on the wording. If it works like the former, then it seems hard to abuse. Anything in Magic that changes creature names?

[Barook]

What caught my attention is a land name that is going to be in the set (don't bother with the :w:-Symbol because we already know that the five lands in the thread are not color-related):

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=83737&stc=1&d=1230674131

The name: Ancient Ziggurat - and that sounds awefully like an Ancient Tomb variant.

[Illissius]

Conflux + Dream Halls, shouldn't there exist a chain that's like, instant win? Conflux for Searing Wind (red), Force of Will(blue), Conflux x3. Then pitch Conflux to play Searing Wind, Pitch another Conflux to play Conflux, get another Searing Wind + 4 other cards, some of them gold coloured (with red in them) and play Searing Wind?


Sure, but you can do the same thing with Grozoth fetching four copies of Searing Wind. (Fetching Force is irrelevant because if they counter anything it'll be Dream Halls or the first Conflux.) Conflux might be incrementally better (or it might not) but in either case it's not a revolution.

[rufus]

Conflux + Dream Halls, shouldn't there exist a chain that's like, instant win?...

If you're going for 'stoopid win' Just set up an inifinte loop with Eye of the Storm, Burning Wish, and Conflux, pick up your deck, and hit your opponent with it. Alternatively, use Tendrils of Agony.

But, really, it's Dream Halls that's broken. It would be much easier to build a deck that uses Dream Halls in conjunction with blue and black cards to power out a Tendrils or Brain Freeze win, and just leave Conflux in the box.

[yawg07]

Well here's an interesting one for Enchantress ...

Sigil of the Empty Throne :3::w::w:
Enchantment
Whenever you play an Enchantment spell, put a 4/4 white Angel token with flying into play under your control.

[georgjorge]

Yep. Also, interesting for recurring enchantments (Genjus + Squandered Ressources, Rancor + Auratog etc).

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Countersquall is an interesting addition:

:u: :b:
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target noncreature spell. That spell's controller loses 2 life.



I doubt I'd want to run it over most other options, but it's worth keeping in mind.

[Bryant Cook]

I doubt it'd be played over Negate in standard.

[Infinitium]

So Wizards just gave Faeries (and only Faeries) a strictly better Negate to compensate for Rune Snag rotating eh? Well played old chaps. Well played in fucking deed.

[Peter_Rotten]

Wouldn't it be fun to use Mind's Desire to flip
Conflux

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana3.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaw.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manau.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manab.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manar.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manag.gif
Sorceryhttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/conflux-mythic.gif
Search your library for a white card, a blue card, a black card, a red card, and a green card, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

(In some format besides Legacy, obviously)

[Seriously]

Well here's an interesting one for Enchantress ...

Sigil of the Empty Throne :3::w::w:
Enchantment
Whenever you play an Enchantment spell, put a 4/4 white Angel token with flying into play under your control.


that does seem pretty hot for enchantress. guess that means hot new angel tokens too.

[Roman Candle]

Well here's an interesting one for Enchantress ...

Sigil of the Empty Throne :3::w::w:
Enchantment
Whenever you play an Enchantment spell, put a 4/4 white Angel token with flying into play under your control.

Eh... I don't think it's gonna be better than Sacred Mesa or Words of War.

[Atog]

Eh... I don't think it's gonna be better than Sacred Mesa or Words of War.

Luckily you give us that comprehensive explanation why it's not. Nobody says it's going to be better, just good addition or replacer Sacred Mesa :rolleyes:

[Roman Candle]

Luckily you give us that comprehensive explanation why it's not. Nobody says it's going to be better, just good addition or replacer Sacred Mesa :rolleyes:

Check the Enchantress thread. It's been said many times why WoW and Mesa are better than other options. It's the same reason why Hoofprints of the Stag isn't played in most Enchantress lists. You don't need more than two wincons because you draw thirty or so cards on the turn you go off, and more win cons gum up your hand.

[kicks_422]

So Wizards just gave Faeries (and only Faeries) a strictly better Negate to compensate for Rune Snag rotating eh? Well played old chaps. Well played in fucking deed.

Thing is, they printed a sweeper that's uncounterable. Faeries are going to get toasted a bit.

[quicksilver]

I could see Sigil of the Empty Throne being a good win condition in enchantress because it still works even if you don't go off. With the others you really needed to have gone off with enchantresses but you can just play this out and then randomly get 4/4's and swing. It takes no mana investment after you've played it out unlike the others and even just playing one or two enchantments may be enough to get there with this. But my point is the advantage this card has over the others is that it can win on it's own where the other win conditions require you to go off first.

[Infinitium]

Thing is, they printed a sweeper that's uncounterable. Faeries are going to get toasted a bit.

Except it won't do anything except slow Faeries down a bit, and with Bitterblossom and Mistbind in response it's doubtful it'll even do that. Cloudtresher is golden because it actually wins the game after sweeping the board, as well as dominating whatever threats remained in the Fae players hand. This on the other hand.. doesn't. It'll help RDW beat Fae, but then again Faeries was never the reason why that deck is pretty much unviable (or at least was when I gave up on the format).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Except it won't do anything except slow Faeries down a bit, and with Bitterblossom and Mistbind in response it's doubtful it'll even do that. Cloudtresher is golden because it actually wins the game after sweeping the board, as well as dominating whatever threats remained in the Fae players hand. This on the other hand.. doesn't. It'll help RDW beat Fae, but then again Faeries was never the reason why that deck is pretty much unviable (or at least was when I gave up on the format).

Ah.

But what if they play this card in conjunction with other cards that do other things?



At least it's more subtle than Tsabo's Web. I'd still rather play Jund Charm, though, I think.

[Apex]

Except it won't do anything except slow Faeries down a bit, and with Bitterblossom and Mistbind in response it's doubtful it'll even do that. Cloudtresher is golden because it actually wins the game after sweeping the board, as well as dominating whatever threats remained in the Fae players hand. This on the other hand.. doesn't. It'll help RDW beat Fae, but then again Faeries was never the reason why that deck is pretty much unviable (or at least was when I gave up on the format).

Actually, I don't know. I mean, what does Faeries have that deals with/doesn't die to Volcanic Fallout card? Mistbind Clique? That's it right? Well, I guess it doesn't permanently solve Bitterblossom either...

But Fallout still eats everything else in that deck without fearing Cryptic or Spellstutter, and can really mess them up when Faeries tries to play stuff at the end of your turn.

Maybe 5c Control can also play it in conjunction with Esper Charms/Cloudthresher to shore up their Faeries matchup.

Seems pretty darn good. Though I don't think it's like the bane of faeries, at least it should see alot of play, so I'm gonna pick up my set (hopefully foil ones) before they pickup in price.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It also seems really good in response to Mistblind Clique.

[Apex]

It is pretty good, though Mistbind Clique can still champion Bitterblossom even if no dudes are on the board.

Also, Thoughtseize and Vendillion Clique can still get rid of Volcanic Fallout before it's cast.

Good hate, but I don't think it's going to demote Faeries to tier 2 any time soon.

[Artowis]

Yeah, nobody is saying the card is going to single-handedly destroy Faeries. Merely that the card is very good for sweeper purposes and is one of the few effective ways to destroy Mutavaults, Conclaves and Scions mid-combat without trying ineffective spot removal.

It certainly could give RDW and WR Lark a boost, while promoting more looks into stuff like G/R ramp. All of which is a big plus.

[hi-val]

I get this feeling that the new Disrupting Scepter, the BB one that fires for 1B, is gonna be a dark horse card for Standard and beyond. Nezumi Shortfang got a lot of play with Gifts decks in Block, and this guy lets you negate a lot of what 5cc or Faeries is trying to pull off. Disrupting Scepter was a total pain in the ass back in the day and I see this thing getting close to it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I get this feeling that the new Disrupting Scepter, the BB one that fires for 1B, is gonna be a dark horse card for Standard and beyond. Nezumi Shortfang got a lot of play with Gifts decks in Block, and this guy lets you negate a lot of what 5cc or Faeries is trying to pull off. Disrupting Scepter was a total pain in the ass back in the day and I see this thing getting close to it.


It depends a lot on whether Damnation is reprinted in 11th. Without Damnation, I think the heavy black commitment would sink it. Add in a cheap board sweeper and you're cooking with diesel, though.

[Captain Hammer]

It depends a lot on whether Damnation is reprinted in 11th. Without Damnation, I think the heavy black commitment would sink it. Add in a cheap board sweeper and you're cooking with diesel, though.

If they're going to do that. Hell why not just throw in Cabal Coffers for good measure?

[SuperBean]

I'm thinking that CounterSquall among other cards will see play in the 5-Color Cruel Control deck. It may even kick Negate to the board due to the huge amount of Vivid lands and Reflecting Pools that the deck plays.

[ThoseWhoFearTomorrow]

I'm thinking that CounterSquall among other cards will see play in the 5-Color Cruel Control deck. It may even kick Negate to the board due to the huge amount of Vivid lands and Reflecting Pools that the deck plays.

Possibly, but the Negates and Guttural Responses are sided in for control matchups to force through Cruel Ultimatums. Both of these options seem cheaper than the color intensive Countersquall when I am already playing my heavy color intensive bomb. I'm not sure the 2 life is worth the extra black mana, but I could be wrong.

[Van Phanel]

Possibly, but the Negates and Guttural Responses are sided in for control matchups to force through Cruel Ultimatums. Both of these options seem cheaper than the color intensive Countersquall when I am already playing my heavy color intensive bomb. I'm not sure the 2 life is worth the extra black mana, but I could be wrong.

You are absolutely right. You wan't to take out your opponents life in chunks of 5 (Ultimatum), 7 (Cloudthresher) or 8 (Broodmate Dragon). 2 life simply don't matter. Negate > this is Cruel Control. The only deck where it could see play currently is Faeries.

[Illissius]

Any deck that wants more than 4 Negates (after sideboarding)?

[Infinitium]

Traumatic Visions 3UU
Instant
Counter Target Spell
Basic landcycling 1U

This looks interesting for MUC, especially as it allows it to splash either W or B (alongside Fetchlands) and still retain all basics for BtB.

[Media314r8]

Traumatic Visions 3UU
Instant
Counter Target Spell
Basic landcycling 1U

This looks interesting for MUC, especially as it allows it to splash either W or B (alongside Fetchlands) and still retain all basics for BtB.

It would be interesting for MUC, perhaps if it cost UUU and basiclandcycled, but we allready have a pretty packed deck, and a late game spell/pain free 1U fetchland that does SO much less than cryptic does not warrent slots in the deck. Cryptic solves CB, is active turn four, and is relevant against much more, and it cantrips additionally.

Personally, I hope the third part of this block is more focused on rewarding mono decks. Ultra-rares (as to not make limited unblanced) with costs like UUU, RRR, BBB, ect with amazing effects, (UUU counter target spell and return target permanent to owner's hand, RRR deal 5 damage to target creature or 4 damage to target player, BBB target player discards three cards unless they pay half their life rounded up, ect) plus WASTELAND in standard, might ease the format away from 5C decks. Decent spells for MUC, Quinn, Mono Red Burn, Pox, ect would be a fine too. (the 5WW wrath + decree seems allright)

[quicksilver]

Traumatic Visions is far to overcosted for legacy. It would need to cost 3 mana and cycle for one to be playable.