What happened to all those decks?

[TheLion]

If I look through all the deck archetypes at deckcheck.ne (http://www.deckcheck.net/format.php?format=Legacy)t, I recognize, that there are many decks, that are (nowadays) rarely played and/or discussed.

Those decks are mainly:
Aluren
Angel Stompy
Angry Tradewind Survival
Berserk Stompy
Bomberman
Cephalid Breakfast
Full English Breakfast
Madness
Mono Black Control
Pattern
Reanimator
RecSur
Rifter
Scepter Chant
Terrageddon
Train Wreck

Not that deckcheck.net is the status quo, but I am just wondering, what happened to those decks?

They seem to be forgotten and nobody's working on them.
Some decks might be meta decks (like Rifter), but the rest?
Why was a deck like Terrageddon, Bomberman or Cephalid Breakfast once good (or hyped?) and nowadays not?

Just wondering, what happened...

[Ciberon]

Dreadstill reigns supreme.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

AlurenWorse then Storm and Breakfast.
Angel StompyThe primary reason it was played was due to its Goblin match up, which isn't as important any more. Now, there are more aggressive decks with better disruption.
Angry Tradewind Survival, Full English Breakfast, RecSurGimmicky combo Survival is generally worse then normal Survival.
Berserk StompyWas this ever played?
Cephalid BreakfastI always thought this was underplayed, but now it just seems worse then Dreadstill.
MadnessWorse then Thresh.
RifterJust plain not good enough anymore. Shocks don't cut it.
Rifter, Scepter Chant, Terrageddon, Train WreckIt's my understanding that these were never too widely played. Train Wreck could be going under the name "The Rock" now.

[Nihil Credo]

Aluren
Krosan Grip.

Angel StompyUsed to be a metagame hate for Goblins, Goblins not quite as dominant anymore. Also 2x Silver Knights handle Werebear but not Tarmogoyf.

Angry Tradewind SurvivalNot quite sure, my guess is that with Tarmogoyf in the picture Survival players wonder why they should bother with a lock when they could fetch four 5/6s and beat.

Berserk StompyIt's about as played as it always was, i.e. not much (because of the 4x Berserks).

BombermanYou mean Salvagers-Keeper? I don't know, it's still an OK deck. Extirpate is a problem, but very beatable.

Cephalid BreakfastVulnerable to pretty much every form of combo hate plus graveyard hate plus manabase hate plus low-CC hate (CounterTop/Chalice)

Full English BreakfastA bit before my time, but I am under the impression that it always was one of the worst Survival variants.

MadnessStrictly worse than Threshold. Well, except against discard.dec, I guess.

Mono Black ControlPretty much strictly worse than Mono White Control - not having Disenchant effects is painful, and its discard does nothing against combo. Also, Aggro Loam and Armageddon Stax are close to autolosses.

PatternWas it ever good?

ReanimatorWas it ever good?

RecSurPeople still throw a Recurring Nightmare or two in their BGW Survival lists sometimes. There's little reason to add more unreliable combo pieces since RecNightmare is quite good on its own.

RifterSee Angel Stompy; replace "2x Silver Knight" with "Lightning Rift".

Scepter ChantKrosan Grip

TerrageddonAlmost strictly worse than Aggro Loam

Train WreckIt should actually be pretty OK with the infestation of FoW/Daze decks, and I think it has had a few recent Top 8s. Though the difficult LD (Loam&Stax) matchup remains, and unlike MBC it's actually vulnerable to Stifle/Wasteland.

[Happy Gilmore]

nearly all those decks were aweful.

The only thing going for madness was Wonder, Angel stompy can only succeed in a metagame full of red decks. Rifter is...well...

Evoluton happened to them, and players got better.

[Jak]

TheLion, you need to learn to let decks go.

[AngryTroll]

FEB still sees some development work. For example, I posted a list in there this week that I think is pretty solid and has sparked some discussion; unfortunately, all the discussion seems to be "That's not FEB anymore, there's no Phage."

Bomberman is vulnerable to graveyard hate and instant speed creature removal, as well as a Counterbalance set to zero or one. That's a lot of rough times for the deck.

I always felt that Cephalid Breakfast was underplayed, but now it has the graveyard hate and creature hate problem that Bomberman has, albeit a better draw engine and disruption package.


Terrageddon should see more play than it does.

Other decks that I think are super underplayed:
Meathooks (It keeps Top 8ing in Europe)
Goblins (MOAR Tin Street Hooligan!)
Ichorid (What happened to this deck? It used to be one of the very best in the format, now people seem to focus on ANT for combo)

EPIC Painter: This deck is awesome. Why doesn't it get played?

[TheLion]

Ok, I understand, that decks like Rifter, Angel Stompy and so on, fell off the radar,
but why is Aluren worse than Storm or Breakfast (u meant Cephalid?).
I think every decks has its strength and weaknesses. Aluren is slower, but doesn't depend on the yard, and doesn't die to Chalice@0@1.

So, in general I would be happier if you people explained WHY deck X is worse than deck Y.

Btw: What about Übermadness (aggro version with LED) and Baseruption (I forgot this in my list)?

Also, I remember times when Cephalid Breakfast was hyped, discussed and played like nowadays e.g. Team America, ALTHOUGH at that time, it had the same weaknesses as today.

PS: The thing why I opened this thread is, that it makes me sad, if I post in a forum "Hey, I have an Terrageddon deck from last year, and like to bring it to the next tourny, can you help me on the SB".
Most answers I get then are like "Hahaha, this deck is crap, throw it away and play something good".

[Atwa]

Terrageddon is still a good deck, however it has involved into Aggro Loam. People started to add red into it and after Countryside Crusher was printed de deck was simply a lot stronger than Terrageddon ever was.

I can understand that people will advise you to play Aggro Loam instead, but if you want to plat Terrageddon, go ahaid. You play for only one reason and that's to make fun (at least I hope that's the reason).

[Eldariel]

Aluren was never too heavily played outside France for whatever reason. I guess Toad did an insufficient job marketing it. Anyways, it should still be a solid control/combo deck, but the question is if its superior midgame is enough to outweight e.g. Dreadstill's 12/12s, or even just the standard 5/6 wincons.

Reanimator was likewise underplayed; back when Legacy was new, the strategy was incredibly solid, but never took wind and hasn't really just been played much. Now most people go "if I play a graveyard deck, I'll play Ichorid", so it's unlike to see widespread adaption even though it has many things going on for it over Ichorid (mostly the fact that it's better able to deal with hate, doesn't care about things being sacrificed, can fit 8-12 discard effects easily and so on). Still, two-card comboes have gotten a lot better lately (think Stiflenaught or Painter's Stone) which means that the combo of "discard outlet + reanimation target + reanimation spell" just isn't all that good anymore. Oh, and Tarmogoyf.

Berserk Stompy seems pretty solid for the meta as it laughs at Stifle/Waste decks and is fast enough to win before Counterbalance goes online much of the time, but it has the "Berserk"-issue (one-deck card that costs fortunes) and the "Aggro Without Disruption"-issue (incredibly difficult combo match-up; Ad Nauseam improves it a bit, but most combo-decks still run means besides AdN to win, and sometimes just win turn 1). Not to mention, it has always had a reputation of being something of a "scrub deck", much like Burn, which means that most serious players wouldn't even consider it.

[Captain Hammer]

I'm curious as to what the hell happened with Train Wreck/MBC as well.

The format has shifted away from Train Wrecks worst matchup - Goblins in favor of aggro control decks with very few threats. Train Wreck was always good at raping aggro control decks to oblivion. The number of strong creature removal options that black has access to allows it to eat aggro control alive, especially when people invest two cards or there entire graveyard into playing out threats like Dreadnought and Tombstalker, which can be killed off by a single 1cc Innocent Blood, or Chainer's Edict. Black also has Leyline of the Void against combo.

I would love for someone to put together a decent MBC or Train Wreck list for the current meta. It shouldn't be hard to do.

Mono black control has always been a favorite archeatype of mine. Helldozer is outdated now that the archeatype has gotten a number of strong finishers recently. And cards like Damnation have got to help it as well.

[GreenOne]

I'm curious as to what the hell happened with Train Wreck/MBC as well.

The format has shifted away from Train Wrecks worst matchup - Goblins in favor of aggro control decks with very few threats. Train Wreck was always good at raping aggro control decks to oblivion. The number of strong creature removal options that black has access to allows it to eat aggro control alive, especially when people invest two cards or there entire graveyard into playing out threats like Dreadnought and Tombstalker, which can be killed off by a single 1cc Innocent Blood, or Chainer's Edict. Black also has Leyline of the Void against combo.

I would love for someone to put together a decent MBC or Train Wreck list for the current meta. It shouldn't be hard to do.

Mono black control has always been a favorite archeatype of mine. Helldozer is outdated now that the archeatype has gotten a number of strong finishers recently. And cards like Damnation have got to help it as well.

Monoblack control has a lovely matchup against aggrocontrol, but it's not great against burn/GoyfSligh and even against Control decks. It's also bad against combo. The result is that it's a glass cannon, you can break metagames with lots of aggrocontrol, but that's it.

[TheRock]

Krosan Grip isn't very good against Aluren. They can still empty their hand before you ever get a chance to even resolve the Grip, and by that time, they may not even need that Aluren because they can win the damage race right on the spot or simply have no problems playing more control. You don't side in cards to hurt the combo, you side in cards to hurt the control skeleton because those cards are going to be much more effective.

IMHO, Aluren isn't played in America because it still has some problems with Counterbalance and Team America is somewhat of an anti-Aluren deck when you really boil it down (in other words, the current Aluren lists don't fare very well against it). I also can't seem to beat Ichorid either, and while that might be me, I simply don't spend sideboard slots on it anymore.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Krosan Grip isn't very good against Aluren. You don't side in cards to hurt the combo, you side in cards to hurt the control skeleton because those cards are going to be much more effective.

Aluren isn't played in America because it still has some problems with Counterbalance and Team America is almost an anti-Aluren deck when you really boil it down to the basics. I'll post some more in a bit, but I have somewhere to go.
This is pretty much true. The problems Aluren has have nothing to do with its win condition (Aluren itself), they have to do with the control-oriented gameplan the deck relies on to buy time for the combo to come together.

A year or two ago, Aluren's package of Walls and 187 dorks actually formed a decent defense against the most prevalant creature decks, namely Goblins and Threshold, while also enabling Aluren itself to act as a win condition. The deck also boasted a strong disruption base, thanks to Cabal Therapy working overtime against opponents that relied on Force of Will to counter spells in the endgame.

However, the adoption of Counterbalance gave Threshold a powerful tool to fight Aluren's Cabal Therapy barrage, as well as many of the other spells in the deck. On top of that, the printing of Tarmogoyf made Aluren's Walls much less effective at buying time, which made Counterbalance even more problematic. Thoughtseize is also a difficult card for Aluren to deal with, and it has seen fairly widespread play in Threshold and Threshold-like decks. Therefore, even while Aluren can incorporate Tarmogoyf itself, the Threshold matchup has become considerably more difficult.

The Goblins matchup hasn't gotten easier, either, since Warren Weirding gives the little green men a much more efficient answer to Aluren's blockers (including Tarmogoyf). Thoughtseize is seeing play in some builds of Goblins, as well.

The metagame has also diversified a little, with Goblins and Threshold giving way to other decks, many of which pose completely different problems for Aluren. Walls do not stop Tombstalkers or Phyrexian Dreadnoughts. A couple of playsets of Force and Therapy do not stop Chant-backed storm combo. And, as TheRock mentioned, Team America's extreme mana denial is a significant hurdle to overcome if you are trying to resolve a spell that costs :2::g::g: before dying to huge monsters.

A fundamental drawback of building a deck around Aluren is that you have to do just that; many of the card choices have to be made specifically in order for Aluren to function. The design that Toad had for GP: Lille was one that successfully mitigated this drawback by utilizing cards that happened to be effective both for the deck's primary plan of stalling the opponent, and for interacting with Aluren and Cavern Harpy. Basically, in the context of the Legacy metagame, these cards are no longer as multi-talented as they once were.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Train Wreck smashed other control decks with a rock and then devoured their intestines in a blood and gin fueled orgy of mayhem. Hell, if the Train Wreck list still ran a few Putrefys or even maindeck Krosan Grips, Quinn would have no chance. And you can forget about Landstill. Heavy discard, board removal, an emphasis on late game bombs and Haunting Fucking Echoes made that deck a beast in the control mirror.

Combo was never the best matchup, but it's not unwinnable either, unless it's Solidarity which just had so much more recovery power against discard.

Problems with Train Wreck, competitively;

1) Prevalence of LD, Stifle effects. Train Wreck was always the most mana intensive of control decks played in Legacy.

2) 50 minute time limits.

GoyfSligh would be a tertiary problem.

[Tao]

It is a) Tarmogoyf is better than whatever that deck played, b) the deck dies to Krosan Grip or c) the deck was never played.


Aluren - b
Angel Stompy - a
Angry Tradewind Survival - abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
Berserk Stompy - a + c
Bomberman - a (CephFast seems nearly strictly better)
Cephalid Breakfast - well, this is an exception, the deck is still good
Full English Breakfast - a,b
Madness - a
Mono Black Control - c
Pattern - c
Reanimator - c
RecSur - a,b
Rifter - was a metadeck
Scepter Chant - b,c
Terrageddon - The updated version Aggroloam is in DtB Forum
Train Wreck - c

[TheRock]

It is a) Tarmogoyf is better than whatever that deck played, b) the deck dies to Krosan Grip or c) the deck was never played.


Aluren - b

Krosan Grip is just about the worst card you can side in against Aluren. I would rather hear that somebody sided in Swords to Plowshares, and that card isn't very good against it either. It is an awful plan against a deck uses Intuition and Cabal Therapy.

[Valdez]

Krosan Grip is just about the worst card you can side in against Aluren. I would rather hear that somebody sided in Swords to Plowshares, and that card isn't very good against it either. It is an awful plan against a deck uses Intuition and Cabal Therapy.
I played 3 times vs. Aluren and 2/3 of the matches were won by Grip.


Btw: What about Übermadness (aggro version with LED) and Baseruption (I forgot this in my list)?
Übermadness: casting 4/4 or 6/6 critters in the first 3 turns isnt that sexy anymore (goyf) + bad combo mu.
Baseruption: was basicly a 4c aggo-control to hate out Flash and other grow decks, it sucks vs. tempo decks + ITF seems to be the better "Baseruption".

[Nihil Credo]

Actually, I think a Baseruption-style list has quite a place in the current metagame - Chrome Moxes are right now almost as sexy as basic lands. Though I'd want to play Trinket Mage over Shadowmage Infiltrator.

[honz]

I have played aluren on and off for a couple years, and maybe i can shed some light on things. The main issues i have had with the deck are: counterbalance and land hate. It seems like everyone and their mother is playing either blood moon or counterbalance. Both of these cards severely damage aluren's game plan, and backed up with a decent clock and/or counter magic, aluren has a hard time playing around it.

And if you arn't running moon or balance, chances are you are running some combination of armageddon, wasteland (+ loam / crucible), sinkhole, rishadon port, and stifle. With so many decks actively attacking mana-bases (team america, aggro loam, stax, tempo thresh, blood moon.dec...etc), it just makes aluren's weak mana-base and low permission unplayable.

Also, ethersworn canonist is StP 5-8 for most decks playing white. While not as hurtful as moon or balance, it's just another tally against the deck. I would not play aluren in the current environment, there is just too much hate for it. In a meta where goyf and counterbalance are the cards to beat, decks based on enchantments and creatures just don't cut it.

[TheRock]

I played 3 times vs. Aluren and 2/3 of the matches were won by Grip.

That's perfectly fine, but I will forewarn you that it won't happen much more if the Aluren pilot knows how to play Intuition and Cabal Therapy. Aluren is a finisher. There are much more productive things you can do to fight Aluren - honz and Obfuscate Freely have already said this quite well.

If it helps, I suggest that nay-sayers look at the discussions for the non-Recruiter lists if they want to understand the deck in more detail and understand why many cards just don't do that much against the deck.

[Tao]

Nonsense. They win with Aluren and Grip destroys Aluren. So you side it in. End. Usually I would explain further but there is just not more to say about it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Landstill wins with DoJ, but that doesn't mean that the most productive card to side in against Landstill is Pyroclasm.

Control decks win after you don't win. By focusing on their win condition versus their actual gameplan, you're chasing the entirely wrong path to victory.

[Nihil Credo]

Scepter-Chant is at least as much of a control deck as Aluren is. Grip is still a huge help in beating that deck (Aluren, unlike Scepter, has the possibily of protecting itself from Grip, but having to spend a Therapy on it is a steep price).

I can agree that, unless you're setting yourself up as the control deck, you shouldn't focus on dealing with the card Aluren. But most decks can near-effortlessly make room for Grip by cutting on their creature removal (which is much easier for Aluren to play around, and as others noted Walls can today be punched through). I imagine this doesn't apply against the Tarmo-Aluren lists, though.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Scepter-Chant is at least as much of a control deck as Aluren is. Grip is still a huge help in beating that deck (Aluren, unlike Scepter, has the possibily of protecting itself from Grip, but having to spend a Therapy on it is a steep price).

Uhh.

In my experience, this was never a steep price.

In my experience, any solution to Aluren that depended on Cabal Therapies being anything but cheap and numerous was opening itself to failure.

Now, actually, I half take that back.

If you were running Top, you might want to board in Grip and keep it in the top three for an emergency situation.

[Tao]

Being able to play around something means having to play around it and that costs time and resources.

And what means "if the Aluren pilot knows how to play Intuition and Cabal Therapy"?
Against Aggro Aluren uses Intuition for a missing combopiece so they can combo and not die against the beatdown or burn. With a normal draw there is no time for fancy Intuition/ Therapy tricks. And if the aggro player waits with a Grip in the deciding turn then it will win him the game.
And in a control vs combo control matchup the control player will be glad about a card that destroys the opponent's main combo piece. It is a fight about every card then and not like "Ok, Intuition resolves, Therapy resolves, Grip goes, Aluren resolves, I lose".
When I play with Gbw Survival against Aluren it is a bad matchup but I side in as many Grips as I can. If they keep Aluren in hand they get vulnerable to my discard, if they play it out I grip it. And furthermore a Grip in Top just completely ignores Therapy.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Grip is obviously relevant against Aluren (yes, especially when paired with Top), but it really hasn't made the deck less playable. Sure, Aluren has to "play around" or answer Grip, but it is well-enough prepared to do so, both tactically and strategically, that Grip doesn't alter matchup percentages to any large degree.

As has been said, the problems with Aluren now are Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, and the prevalence of highly-effective mana denial.

Scepter-Chant, on the other hand, gets destroyed by Grip, but that is because Scepter decks often rely on Isochron Scepter as a means to generate card advantage, which is a major component of their primary (control) gameplan. Moreover, "going off" with Scepter Chant doesn't end the game like Aluren does, and a timely Krosan Grip will easily revert the gamestate back to what it was before the Scepter landed. Also, yeah, Cabal Therapy.

[Eatatjoes]

To all these people knockin aluren, have you actually piloted the deck? Or played against a competant player? Any player that will blindly drop an aluren without any disruption or backup is not a good player. Also aluren is played the turn you plan on going off, aluren does not sit in play unprotected for multiple turns. Also Aluren doesnt have to go off on turn 3-4 against most decks. It can usually stall like solidarity, with wall of blossoms/wall of roots/tarmogoyf while sculpting its hand. And if krosan grip is the only reason people arent playing the deck, i see that as a poor excuse, not every deck plays green, and the decks that do play grip usually only play 3, and they are in the sideboard, which is where our additional discard is at. I'd be more worried about counterbalance, but its not that bad, cause most of alurens combo pieces cost 3. Id say of all match-ups, the worst deck for aluren would have to be a deck like eva green. Discard/land distruction/krosan grip is what kills aluren in this match up, this is the only time where you are vulnerable to grip, cause if they have enought discard, you might have to throw out an early aluren and hope they dont have the grip for it. So really the only time you should fear grip, is in a deck with alot of discard.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

To all these people knockin aluren, have you actually piloted the deck?I have, with Dragon Stompy. Early Chalices allowed me to hold on to disruption and force though a Moon, which stopped the flow of walls and allowed me to smash his face. Game two went the same except with Chalice at one and two followed with a Magus of the Moon who went all the way.

[kirdape3]

What ends up happening is that Aluren runs its own Tarmogoyf... and then why bother with Aluren combo-killing because you have your own Goyfs. A lot of the games that Aluren would end up winning at the end would simply be "Attack with Goyf, pass" - at that point, why play the 4cc enchantment?

[Eatatjoes]

What ends up happening is that Aluren runs its own Tarmogoyf... and then why bother with Aluren combo-killing because you have your own Goyfs. A lot of the games that Aluren would end up winning at the end would simply be "Attack with Goyf, pass" - at that point, why play the 4cc enchantment?


Tarmogoyf just made the deck that much stronger. 1 more win condition in the deck doesnt hurt, while they are wasting resources to take care of goyf, you just build up a solid hand and win. He's just what the deck needed, before goyf, aluren wouldnt put that much pressure before comboing off, now its harder for the opponent to disrupt aluren when they are being smashed by early goyfs.

And on the blood moon note, aluren plays mostly basics, it has a pretty solid manabase against non-basic hate

[honz]

To all these people knockin aluren, have you actually piloted the deck? Or played against a competant player?

I think this is not only unfair, but hypocritical. Have you ever piloted aluren against a competant opponent? From what you have said, I think the answer is no.

Tarmogoyf doesn't make the deck "that much stronger", in fact the only reason aluren plays goyf is because everyone else plays goyf. And as they say, the best way to block a goyf is with a goyf. If nobody in the format was playing goyf, i would happily go back to playing 8 walls. The number of times that you go aggro with goyf and win games is far less than the number of times your opponent's goyfs rape you in the face.

Blood moon is not a problem because it completely cuts you off of all colored mana. It is a problem because it slows you down sufficiently that your opponent can win before you get things online. You may very well have a forest and / or an island in play before they drop moon, but you will be playing 1 spell a turn until you find what you need, and they will be beating your face in / playing more control elements.

Counterbalance + top + 2 mana + daze/force = gg most the time. Aluren was designed for an older, slower, and smaller meta that just doesn't exist anymore. It might get a couple lucky wins because of play errors and good match-ups, but it will not be a deck to beat.