G/B/r Death Cloud Loam

[Pulp_Fiction]

I have been looking around for a while now for a more controlling Loam variant that is not Eternal Garden! As much as I love playing that deck it has serious weaknesses and takes a LONG time to do anything. I doubt this deck will be any different but it can get your opponent into a soft lock which may end things sooner. This is based on the Graboids! deck in the Established Forum except the kill sources are less based around Loam. That was my goal, to make a Loam deck that functions well with Loam but does not need it in order to win. Here is the initial list:

3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Death Cloud
3x Life From the Loam
4x Smallpox
4x Mox Diamond
4x Burning Wish
3x Engineered Explosives/Putrefy (not sure yet)
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Worm Harvest
1x Gigapede
4x Trinisphere
2x Open Slots (possibly Devastating Dreams or additional kill sources)

4x Bayou
3x Badlands
2x Taiga
4x Wasteland
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Swamp
1x Mountain
1x Forest
3x Barren Moor

The SB is all meta dependent but it should closely resemble an Aggro Loam board, something like:

1x Life From the Loam
1x Reverent Silence
1x Shattering Spree
1x Worm Harvest
1x Death Cloud
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Aftershock
3x Krosan Grip
3x Cranial Extraction
2x Extirpate/Relic/Crypt

This is just a rough idea and is totally untested. I really want Death Cloud to be good in Legacy and time will tell if it is or not. I know most people would say replace Trinisphere with Chalice but this deck is more geared towards land destruction and you can easily lock your opponent out of the game with land destruction. And playing Top in this deck you can tell when it will be safe to dredge Loam and allow the deck to actually top deck cards when your opponent has been fucking with your graveyard. What is everyone's thoughts on this idea?

[Finn]

I think this is a fantastic idea. I tried to make Loam/Cloud work, and I could not. Good luck, PF.

I think you want 4x Chalice, in the sb at least.

[Roman Candle]

I think Exploration deserves to be in here somewhere... it lets you rebuild twice as fast after Cloud, and accelerates into an earlier Cloud.

Also, you probably don't wanna get too gimmicky with lands, but Contested Cliffs with Garruk could be pretty funny.

[chokin]

Sinkhole seems like a decent inclusion.

I like Gigapede, but have you considered Grave-Shell Scarab? Bigger butt, smaller power. It doesn't have Shroud, but it basically has 1: Return this sucka to your hand, mill yourself 1. I dunno. I think Pede's better, but I have a sweet spot for GSS.

Kitchen Finks is a nice addition to the deck. "Survives" Smallpox, DC, DDreams and EE. Same goes for Epochrasite.

Maybe since you have lots of removal that requires everyone to sacrifice creatures, toss in a couple Mishra's Factory?

Just tossing ideas out there.

EDIT: Oh and though you probably wanna stay away from it, Volrath's Stronghold mixed with even one copy of Terravore is mean as hell if you're blasting lands.

[Valtrix]

I don't neccessarily know that there's a point to trying to use death cloud when aggro loam exists. Devastating dreams does the same thing to shut down decks from creatures and rebuilding, but it runs more/better threats. That and it's faster.

So, I ask you: Why play/make this over aggro loam?

[Illissius]

I have a question.

Where the Hell is Raven's Crime?

[Pulp_Fiction]

I like Sinkhole but I think Smallpox is infinitely better and I don't want cards that destroy only lands, so when you are in topdeck mode or your grave has been shut off everything has an effect when you draw it.

I think those 2 open slots should be Devastating Dreams. I also think the deck should play EE over Putrefy since EE will remove troublesome permanents like Crypt, Relic, Vial etc. The deck has enough answers to a Tombstalker. I would cut the number of EE down to 2 though and add an additional kill source. I am trying to make the deck totally immune to Vedalken Shackles/StP but I am thinking that Nether Spirit might be a worthwhile inclusion since you don't even have to cast it! Here are the kill sources I think would be close to optimal:

3x Garruk
1x Nether Spirit
1x Worm Harvest
1x Gigapede

But the problem with Nether Spirit is that it is a worthless kill source by itself. The fact that you never have to cast it greatly intrugues me though, but late game it will be a pointless topdeck, but then again, what other recurring creatures could be played in this spot:

Necrosavant
Gigapede #2
Grave Shell Scarab
Coffin Puppets
Phantasmorgian
Stinkweed Imp

I think Grave Shell Scarab is probably the best inclusion but should not be run over Gigapede but it has potential to be better than Nether Spirit. Maybe cutting Worm Harvest from the main completely and play Spirit, Pede, and Scarab? Nether Spirit is kind of a pet card of mine and I am always looking for reasons to put him in a deck with few creatures. Since Gigapede and GSS return easily to your hand Nether Spirit should have no problem recurring. The only reason I am willing to cut Worm Harvest is that it is pointless with any graveyard hate card in play and Nether Spirit is at least a body to buy a little time.

Garruk is the only kill source that HAS to be in the deck since it makes creatures and acts as acceleration.

I like the Finks but I think they would only be good in multiples and since they are not a crazy powerful threat individually I don't think they should be included. If you wanted to include the Finks the deck would take a more aggro route with Sakura Tribe Elder/Veteran Explorers.

I would love to include Mishra's Factory but I am trying to avoid playing as few colorless lands a possible. In a deck with casting costs like BBB, BB, BB, RR, 2GG, GG, 2 G/B G/B G/B it would be a good idea to avoid those lands. I did consider Stronghold but if anything should be included it should probably be Mishra's Factory or Treetop Village but only as a 2-of. Village and Factory certainly deserve some testing. Village could also be included as a 1-of which makes it a more likely candidate to include.

[frogboy]

So, I ask you: Why play/make this over aggro loam?

It's really really hard to lose after you put the other guy on no board no hand, as opposed to Mind Twisting yourself to Wrath/Geddon and having them just dump Tarmogoyf into play a couple turns later. I don't think it's automatically better than regular Loam, but it's probably fine.

Gigapede is probably extraneous since you already have Harvest. You probably also want more land, and Raven's Crime is one of the less fair applications of Loam I've ever seen.

edit:


Garruk is the only kill source that HAS to be in the deck since it makes creatures and acts as acceleration.

Garruk is one of the most cuttable cards in the deck. It's best post-Cloud, i.e. when you're already ahead. It's pretty hard to resolve against a control deck, and they can just get it with Goyf anyway. It's slow against aggro. Etc.

Worm Harvest is actually unreal and I'm pretty sure no one in this thread has actually cast it yet.

edit2: obligatory 4 top plz

[mackaber]

You should add Raven's Crime if not MD then as a Wish target. It wrecks control and Stormcombo and after deatchloud with Loam active it will ensure that your opponent can never get back into the game.

[Nihil Credo]

Mana-intensive deck + absent or expendable creatures + black mana = Innocent Blood

I doubt Trinisphere is worth it, especially as a 4-of. It's nowhere near as broken as in Stax: much more difficult to drop on turn 1 and interferes with many more of your own cards.

As a sketchy testing idea, I would suggest Lake of the Dead - fuel huge Death Clouds with lands that were going to die anyway! It also helps with the expensive Retrace spells, and half the time when it's unwanted you can pitch it to Mox.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Interesting ideas.

@frogboy: I have cast Worm Harvest numerous times in a tournament setting which is why I am so iffy about it as a kill source in the main deck. I have had it in hand against an opposing Leyline of the Void after a mull to 5 and it was not pleasant. I want kill sources that are not reliant on the Loam engine.

Would this be better than Aggro Loam? It is and it isn't. This deck is focused heavily on distupring the opponent and should not ever lose to that lone Tombstalker that Loam will. Also, I am trying to build a Loam deck that can function well without Loam which is why I am trying to keep Seismic Assault out of it. THis deck can also easily win through Vedalken Shackles which on occassion can be very problematic for Aggro Loam.

[frogboy]

Yeah, Gigapede is definitely awesome in your five card hand staring down a Leyline.

Er.

You're going to have to get to Burning Wish or Explosives for four anyway, just suck it up.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Raven's Crime is very reliant on Loam but it is absolutely going to be a SB card. I don't know if it would be good in the main or not. It could probably go either way but it certainly deserves testing. It may be broken beyond words but it seems like the more you mulliugan the worse the card gets. And the other question is ... is it better than DD in the main? The more I think about it the more comfortable I feel with Raven's Crime in the main over DD since I will not cast DD into a blue player who has 2-4 cards in the hand.

Neither are exactly peachy in your opening hand but Gigapede at least has a chance to be awesome with no graveyard. In this case GSS would be a lot better.

Trinisphere is in here to try and make sure Goyf Sligh and Burn lose. I suppose it could go in the the SB but the ability to lock your opponent out of the game completely after Death Cloud is insanely strong. I guess you could replace Trinisphere and run it in the side but you would almost be taking Burn as an auto-loss.

[Nihil Credo]

Trinisphere is in here to try and make sure Goyf Sligh and Burn lose. I suppose it could go in the the SB but the ability to lock your opponent out of the game completely after Death Cloud is insanely strong. I guess you could replace Trinisphere and run it in the side but you would almost be taking Burn as an auto-loss.
As the list stands, Burn is already close to an autoloss. They will knock off on average half of your life total before you can unleash the first of your reset buttons, and after that you take long enough to kill them that they stand an excellent chance of finishing the job in time (particularly when 60% of your win conditions are a 2GG Angel of Mercy). If you had a god draw and Trinisphere was in play, they still have a fair shot at rebuilding, since they ignore Wasteland.

[b4r0n]

Is there any reason to run a basic Mountain? It doesn't seem like you'd ever be afraid of Wasteland, and you have Moxen anyways. Also, wouldn't Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth be a perfect fit in the deck considering that you're trying to hit BB then BBB?

[chokin]

Raven's Crime is good for when you wanna force through a big spell. You can basically go Loam->Lands-> Raven's Crimex3 against control (unless they are using CB+Top) in which case dredging into a Worm Harvest is pretty sexy.

I've been thinking a lot about Death Cloud. It's really neat, but wouldn't Pox be better in most cases? On turn 3, it's essentially DC@1, which pretty much is a free mana kinda. Plus it gets better later and you don't even have to flood more mana into it.

Also, with all of the mutual land destruction going on (Smallpox, DC, Wasteland[takes a land drop] and DDreams) is it a good idea to have so many high CC cards? I think the sweet spot is 3ish mana, which we can rush to anyways and can keep pretty consistently. Garruk is cute, but he could easily be cut for something that is more tide changing. Gigapede and Worm Harvest are pretty devastating imo. They are game finishers when you've locked them out and keep coming back unless they have graveyard removal.

So rethinking the deck, I came up with a Pox+this kinda deck:

3 Bayou
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Barren Moor
1 Forest
2 Swamp
__25 Land

1 Gigapede
__1 Creature

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Burning Wish
4 Mox Diamond
3 Life from the Loam
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
1 Worm Harvest
2 Putrefy
__34

Sinkhole is good before (Small) Pox and post Pox. I say fuck Death Cloud since we really don't accelerate too quickly into it. Putrefy is pretty flexible. It hits dudes and artifacts. Nuff said. Pox scales nicely as the game progresses. That'd be the card I'd drop first for like DDreams though. Plus I like red in the deck. Innocent Blood is awesome since we don't run creatures. The average cc is almost 2, which means we can practically run off of a Mox and a Bayou for a while. I also like my Mishra's Factory in here since we can not require 5 mana for a finisher with all of this double sided land kill. I like this version, lol.

Edit: Yeh, prolly DDreams over Pox. I don't like DCloud so much right now though :/ It's cool, but not highly playable. Like Kagemaro.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I really hate Pox. There are a few people in my meta how randomly bring it and maybe 5% of the time they make top 8. This is from my personal experience with Pox, it never kills enough creatures, sucks against Goblins and usually hurts me just as much.

Perhaps Trinisphere isn't necessary and then just gear the deck towards any bomb spells it can cast and play 2-3 Raven's Crime in the main.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Here is a new idea I am messing around with, slightly different take on the deck:

3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Death Cloud
3x Life From the Loam
4x Smallpox
4x Mox Diamond
4x Burning Wish
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Worm Harvest
1x Gigapede
1x Nether Spirit
3x Snuff Out
3x Raven's Crime

4x Bayou
3x Badlands
1x Taiga
4x Wasteland
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Urgorg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Swamp
1x Forest
3x Barren Moor
1x Treetop Village

SB

1x Life From the Loam
1x Reverent Silence
1x Shattering Spree
1x Worm Harvest
1x Death Cloud
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Raven's Crime
1x Cranial Extraction
3x Krosan Grip
4x Trinisphere

I am not positive the correct number of Raven's Crime just yet but since you want it early to start the disruption I am thinking 3 but 2 may suffice I need to test that out. I would LOVE to put Putrefy in this deck but Snuff Out is just better. The turn you play Garruk (right before Death Cloud) the deck would benefit most from a free protection spell to keep him alive, and it kills turn 1 Lackey's and is Daze proof when trying to kill 12/12 tramplers as well as being Counterbalance proof. In the wishboard I would really like to play some kind of recurring life gain spell but I don't think there is one. This deck does a lot of damage to itself but, unless you are playing Goblins/Affinity/Zoo it will be incredibly difficult to keep a threat on the board. A turn 1 Smallpox (on the draw) is just devastating against most decks. I decided to cut DD altogether since my meta is full of blue and instead am testing out Raven's Crime. Crime + Loam = fucking nasty. It seems almost unfair at times. This card alone should dominate the Landstill matchup.

As suggested by Nihil I really like Lake of the Dead, it could potentially power out a disgusting DC but when it gets Wastelanded that tempo disadvantage can be crucial, one of the reasons that this deck can't afford to play Golgari Rot Farm.

[Nihil Credo]

I would LOVE to put Putrefy in this deck but Innocent Blood is just better.
Fixed.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I will test out Innocent Blood, that card is great, no lies there, but I am concerned that I am now giving the deck 10x cards with CC 1. Then again I have EE and Birning Wish to answer a Chalice @ 1. Snuff Out is also totally immune to Counterbalance. But then again, most of this deck is immune to CB so I suppose I shall test out Innocent Blood. Another thing that bother me about it is that it's pretty bad against Survival variants which do pop up around here. But I will look into it and get back to you on which feels better.

[AntoonAukema]

Wouldend "PERNICIOUS DEED" be very good in this deck?