Why Does Illusions + Donate no longer see play.

[Captain Hammer]

I can't figure why the Painter's Servant + Grindstone combo is so popular when so many other, arguably better two card combos get completely ignored.

Let's cover the other such combos and their pros.

1.) Time Vault + Mizzium Transreliquat or Rings of Brighthearth
- No color requirements same as Painter's Servant.
- Both pieces fetchable with any artifact tutors.

2.) Helm + Leyline
- Leyline is free to cast if in opening hand, and is very strong on its own hating out Ichorid, hurting thresh, goyfs, tombstalkers, crucibles and tons of other popular cards entirely by accident. ]
- The deck could stay monoblack and be packed with discard, disruption, tutors and accleration.

3.) Kiki,Jiki + Pestermite or the Full English Breakfast comb
- Either combo works beautifully in survival (with survival being the only combo piece needed as it can fetch the other pieces), and all involved creatures are very solid on their own too.

4.) Doomsday
- It's techincally a one card combo and in a color very capable of disrupting your opponents countermeasures.

5.) Stuffy Doll + Guilty Conscience
- Aggregate cc of only 6 mana (same as Painter)
- Both pieces are fetchable with E. Tutor
- Both pieces are quite useful on their own...
a.) Stuff Doll is a very strong defensive card and also combos with other very useful control cards like Worship and Pariah.
b.) Guilty Conscience is basically a propaganda on any creature with a neutral or positive P:T ratio (80% of played creatures).
- The aggregate color requirement is just 1 White mana, same as Enlightened Tutor, and white is full of ways to lock down your opponent till you can resolve the combo.

6.) Illusions + Donate.
- It's aggregate cc is 7, which is only one higher than Painter + Grindstone.
- Both combo pieces are on color, in blue, and multiple copies drawn into are pitchable to Force of Will or Misdirection. And both Force of Will and Misdirection do an equally good job protecting the combo.
- Both combo pieces only have a single blue in casting cost, so you can still build your manabase around stuff like Wasteland + Factory + Ancient Tomb.
- You have a number of great card draw options, from Ancestral Visions, Brainstorm, Standstill, Fact or Fiction and many others to choose from. And cards like Shackles, Back to Basics, Propaganda and Powder Keg to slow down your opponents as well.
- The only things this combo is vulnerable to is enchantment destruction, and countermagic, both of which can be stopped with either Misdirection or Force of Will.

Notable Mentions: Cephalid Breakfast, Aluren, Storm Combos and Belcher (these all already have well established decks built around them that see a lot of play).

Now consider Grindstone + Painter's Servant.

Sure, it's pretty strong. But it is vulnerable to Pithing Needle, any and all creature kill, artifact kill and grip, and all the cards that hurt 1cc and 2cc cards (Chalice, Counterbalance, Trinisphere etc.)
And Grindstone is almost worthless on it's own. While Painter's Servant is only significantly useful if you're willing to play blasts. So the idea that this combo sees so much play when other comparable, and arguably superior combos get ignored doesn't make sense.

[Deviruchi]

@Re: Why Does Illusions + Donate no longer see play.

Krosan Grip

[TheLion]

I predict there will be at least one person who posts "Krosan Grip" and nothing else...
EDIT: see above...

I don't get it neither really. For some reason people consider it to be bad, and don't do any efforts to make it good (compensate its weaknesses).
It's Counterbalance-, Chalice-, Wasteland- and Trinisphere- proof and a 2 card combo. It does not depend on the yard, it doesn't die to creature hate...
So, I can't answer your question correctly, so I just can say "Krosan Grip", too...

EDIT:
this whole topic was discussed a while ago already...
as far as i remember, the only points against this deck were:
- Krosan Grip, which kills you, while the Cip trigger is on the stack. (you lose 20 life)
- the deck doesn't win immediately, but 1-2 turns later, after Donating the Illusions.

[TheLion]

Questions over questions...

What really makes me thinking is if people start to use the term "Combo" as a synonym for "Storm Combo", as if there are no other combo decks.
"Ethersworn Canonist [Trinisphere, ...] for anti-combo".

I don't know the deck around Doomsday, but it sounds like an all-in deck without disruption... (if they counter one of your 5 cards, the combo fails).

Kiki + Karmic Guide + Pestermite (+ Reanimate) should see more play.

[Elfrago]

It does not win on the spot. (bounce or REB's can solve this).
Krosan Grip (Meddling and discard for this)
It only deals 20 ( a differente wincon or some sort of burn?)

[Sanguine Voyeur]

This was talked about with some depth here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11818).

To summarize; too slow, too fragile, and better combos exist.

[Rood]

Well aside from Krosan Grip, you also lose to one cycled Renewed Faith which I think is helarious.

Aside from that why pay 7 mana for a combo that dies to K-grip when you can pay 2 mana for a 12/12 trampler that comes online as soon as turn 2? Also half of that combo isn't dead in your hand.

[emidln]

Doomsday is played in FT/ANT. It finds the combo of spells + storm card as a generalized storm engine alternate Ad Nauseam. Most Doomsday lists play the Sensei, Sensei's kill (2x Top, Helm, Grapeshot/Brani Freeze) out of the sb as a means to get around certain hate cards.

The cheapest 2 card instant-wins in Legacy (instant being you win either immediately or at the beginning of your opponent's turn)

2U - Breakfast combo
1BBBU - Doomsday + Brainstorm/SDT
5 (or 7BB) - Leyline of the Void-Helm of Obedience
6 - Painter-Grindstone

[DeathwingZERO]

Painter + Grindstone:
-Wins immediately if you do not disrupt it somehow
-Addition of Blasts means anything after they've put Painter on the table is now risking being countered, short of Grip
-Both cards are artifacts, meaning they can go into builds that can capitalize on protecting it, be it blue, red, black, white, etc
-If you kill one aspect, the other still has use until the player can find the second piece again
-They can be put into CounterTop decks. They can go into Intuition decks.
-They can be searched via E. Tutor, and can be cast on turn one, activated on turn two in most builds.

Speed, protection, and efficiency, which is a combination none of these other choices have.

Illusions/Donate:
-Grip KILLS the Illusions player, and there isn't a thing they can do about it (yes, obvious is obvious, but that doesn't change the fact). That fear enough keeps the deck from being played, because Grip is such an easy card to splash, and in all the decks that would most likely otherwise have bad matchups against a control deck with a combo kill.
-Stifle and Trickbind also keep you from gaining the life, and Dreadstill is starting to pick up steam, so those are also problems.
-If you have to pay for this permanent that will kill you, while fighting off an onslaught, you tend to run out of steam.
-The combo doesn't kill the opponent until you can bounce it (3 card combo now, not 2), or they run out of mana to pay for it. A fair number of decks can ping you down that spare 20 life while they pay for the upkeep, because they have speed on their side.

Breakfast is the "combo deck of hate champions" (ziiiiing).
-Graveyard hate kills it, Needle kills it, StP (and instant speed removal of most kinds) kills it, hell, even CounterTop severely hinders it enough to turn the tables.

Simply put, it's a bad Thresh deck dedicated to a combo kill that is very easy to disrupt both from maindeck and sideboard. Kinda harsh, but objectively true.

Leyline + Helm is a fun combo, but a terrible one:
-Leyline does nothing against a majority of the format on it's own, sans Ichorid and sometimes Thresh.
-You still need a clock.
-Helm requires four mana to cast, meaning it's probably going to be turn two or later. This gives time for the opponent to answer one, or the other.
-In most cases, you are putting eight "wasted" slots into the combo itself, unless you want to go looking for them, which requires cheap tutors, easily hated by Countertop, Chalice, and other counter magic.
-In addition, it gets killed by Grip.

This Grip thing keeps popping up a lot.

Doomsday based decks suck, because they require to set up, protect, and cast both Doomsday, and the draw spell/ability, in addition to getting storm to 4 before it. However, storm decks that can fit it in as a 1 or 2 of can use it as the backup and/or direct-to-victory plan.

Stuffy Conscience:
-Stuffy Doll is 5 mana to cast.
-It might be indestructible, but that doesn't mean it's unable to be removed.
-Did I mention it's also 5 to cast?
-Yes, you can get to it early via tutors. But you have to practically destabilize the manabase in order to make the combo fast enough to be threatening, or else there's a good chance your opponent will let Stuffy Doll block a single swing or two and eat the damage, to kill you.
-Conscience can be hit by CounterTop, bounced, destroyed by Grip or Explosives/Deed (all pretty heavily played cards), and it also doesn't kill Tarmogoyf.
-That last part in itself is a huge problem.

Kiki + Pestermite is the prime example of a combo that requires Tooth and Nail, or Survival.
-it's far too hard to get to both pieces, and cast both pieces (Kiki's cost in insanely prohibitive to decks that want tutor effects).
-Outside of green decks being able to abuse the two card combo, it's going to be nearly impossible to find it a home. This leaves Tooth and Nail or Survival as it's best options.

That's the best I can come up with before I go to bed. I'm sure there's going to be more elaboration on all of these by the time I come back, but in reality, all these combos aren't good enough where the format currently is. Hell, I'd play Intuition/Demigod before any of these, and that's last on my "combo of choice" list I'd be willing to bring to a tournament.

[emidln]

Doomsday stacks suck. That's really what it comes down to. We don't have Mind's Desire, and that was the only card making Doomsday really viable. When you have to cast the next five spells to win the game, you have to now overextend to protecting the combo, getting the combo, and using the combo. Usually, this isn't in one turn, and that's a risk.

Good job of blindly writing before you think.. Doomsday decks go all-in because they need to win that turn (like all storm combo decks) and they do so with heavy protection. They go all in after Duress, Orim's Chant, Pyroblast, and/or Xantid Swarm wreck any chance you have at resisting. Doomsday-fueled storm combo can afford to play more disruption because Doomsday guarantees lethal storm on resolution with a draw spell (which can usually be an already in-play SDT) letting you sculpt hands of 4-5 disruption, dark rit, doomsday that stack-based control decks can't beat.

Doomsday is the best storm engine currently available in a field of blue-based control (consequently why it is included alongside Ad Nauseam in ANT lists which is ridiculous against black-based aggro and misc decks) because it lets you focus most of your hand on disruption while using your life total as a buffer to draw more protection before attempting to combo. The doomsday stacks are really good in legacy, in large part due to the effort of the storm combo players here and on storm boards. My updated list of common piles is here: http://emidln.dyndns.org/~bja/doomsday.html.

As an aside, the best vintage players found Mind's Desire to be win-more in NLD becaue the true goal wasn't to resolve Mind's Desire, it was simpy to generate 8-9 storm and a Tendrils. Doomsday giving you 5 cards already let you have enough mana to play Yawg Will/R&D into Tendrils in a fashion extremely similar to how i've crafted most legacy piles.

[Peter_Rotten]

Does anyone remember the original foil deck to Illusions Donate? Wasn't it Super Gro? And Super Gro has gained a hundred new tools, making vastly superior to its original version. What has Illusions Donate gained? Modern Thresh probably crushes Ill-Don.

[DeathwingZERO]

I apologize for speaking about Doomsday incorrectly. My wording was (very) slightly off, I shouldn't have said in one turn, I should have said on the first turn. I probably also should have said that the act of using Doomsday as the engine sucks and is incorrect, because it requires needing a storm of 4, something in that being protection if necessary, Doomsday resolving, and a way to draw the first card.

So maybe I should have said it differently. "Doomsday based decks suck, because they require to set up, protect, and cast both Doomsday, and the draw spell/ability, in addition to getting storm to 4 before it.

However, storm decks that can fit it in as a 1 or 2 of can use it as the backup and/or direct-to-victory plan."

Sound better? I'll actually edit that into it now. I apologize again that my thought process was more ripping into the fact that Doomsday resolving doesn't win on it's own, which is what I was actually intending to say.

Also, as an aside, engine is a totally wrong word for the card. It's a setup spell, your draw is the engine. Without the draw, Doomsday gets you nowhere. But for now, I'm having a hard time finding a name for "destination", aside from enabler. Ad Nauseam on the other hand, is an engine.

Took me like 5 edits to get these two posts right. Told ya I was tired.

[Pulp_Fiction]

A lot of people have been talking about wanting to play Trix again. Honestly, if you want to ... play the deck. Look up Kai Budde's version and build that and then adapt it to the current metagame. Make sure to play hand destruction though because Krosan Grip does exist. And that is really the thing, if the deck has green in it it is almost a guarntee there is Grip somewhere in the side. That being said it is also very slow. Even with Saphire Medallion. I wanted it to be good as well because I remember bringing it to an extended PTQ and taking 2nd and winning a ton of packs! It was good times, but the deck really is just to slow.

My opinion: look up Kai Budde's list, put hand destruction in it, start a thread in N&D, and take it to a tournament.

I can tell you why a lot of people won't play Doomsday, its really fucking difficult to play. No joke, if you have never tried to play the deck it is difficult to understand the situations the deck gets into and how to properly setup Doomsday to play out of that situation. Thats why it is important to know a bunch of different piles to play the deck and most people are not willing to take the time to properly understand the deck and how it functions, because it does take a great deal of time to get good with the deck; it is never easy.

[GreenOne]

1.) Time Vault + Mizzium Transreliquat or Rings of Brighthearth
- No color requirements same as Painter's Servant.
- Both pieces fetchable with any artifact tutors.

Time vault is not fetchable with artifact tutors. In fact, you can't even play it. It's banned.


2.) Helm + Leyline
- Leyline is free to cast if in opening hand, and is very strong on its own hating out Ichorid, hurting thresh, goyfs, tombstalkers, crucibles and tons of other popular cards entirely by accident. ]
- The deck could stay monoblack and be packed with discard, disruption, tutors and accleration.

This one costs 7BB if you don't have a leyline in the opening. Seems too much.


3.) Kiki,Jiki + Pestermite or the Full English Breakfast comb
- Either combo works beautifully in survival (with survival being the only combo piece needed as it can fetch the other pieces), and all involved creatures are very solid on their own too.

It's quite slow, graveyard dependant (don't shit me, you'll never cast both kiki and pestermite, you have to reanimate them), and can't pack much disruption. Aluren is a good comparison and it seems ages better.


4.) Doomsday
- It's techincally a one card combo and in a color very capable of disrupting your opponents countermeasures.

It's already played.


5.) Stuffy Doll + Guilty Conscience
- Aggregate cc of only 6 mana (same as Painter)
- Both pieces are fetchable with E. Tutor
- Both pieces are quite useful on their own...
a.) Stuff Doll is a very strong defensive card and also combos with other very useful control cards like Worship and Pariah.
b.) Guilty Conscience is basically a propaganda on any creature with a neutral or positive P:T ratio (80% of played creatures).
- The aggregate color requirement is just 1 White mana, same as Enlightened Tutor, and white is full of ways to lock down your opponent till you can resolve the combo.

This could actually work, but 5cc means that you're going to take a control route, probably a stax deck. Unfortunately the ther piece is 1cc, so you can't play chalice.
The combo also wins the turn after you played it. It's slow as hell.


6.) Illusions + Donate.
- It's aggregate cc is 7, which is only one higher than Painter + Grindstone.
- Both combo pieces are on color, in blue, and multiple copies drawn into are pitchable to Force of Will or Misdirection. And both Force of Will and Misdirection do an equally good job protecting the combo.
- Both combo pieces only have a single blue in casting cost, so you can still build your manabase around stuff like Wasteland + Factory + Ancient Tomb.
- You have a number of great card draw options, from Ancestral Visions, Brainstorm, Standstill, Fact or Fiction and many others to choose from. And cards like Shackles, Back to Basics, Propaganda and Powder Keg to slow down your opponents as well.
- The only things this combo is vulnerable to is enchantment destruction, and countermagic, both of which can be stopped with either Misdirection or Force of Will.

Krosan grip was already mentioned, but also the fact that it's a slow combo, and people could kill you long way before you assemble both pieces. Also, the combo suffer creature removal. In fact STP on one of their own critters stops you. Oh, and stifle/REB too.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I was actually excited about Stuffy Doll - Guilty Conscience in Mighty Quinn for a second.

The problem is that you open yourself up to StP; with Painter-Servant, you don't have to wait for summoning sickness to fall off, so you can spend seven mana to Chant + win in the same turn. With Stuffy Conscience, Chant won't protect you from StP because they have to get priority back.


This was talked about with some depth here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11818).

To summarize; too slow, too fragile, and better combos exist.

Man. I remember that. That was when I split JACO's chest open and devoured his soul.

It might be slightly egotistical to say, but if there's anything more entertaining and enlightening than reading my posts, I haven't encountered it.

[Peter_Rotten]

It might be slightly egotistical to say, but if there's anything more entertaining and enlightening than reading my posts, I haven't encountered it.

I guess you haven't heard that there is free pornography on the Internet.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I guess you haven't heard that there is free pornography on the Internet.

No shit! Where?!

[Pinder]

No shit! Where?!


Link (http://www.letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=free+porn)

[georgjorge]

The cheapest 2 card instant-wins in Legacy (instant being you win either immediately or at the beginning of your opponent's turn)

2U - Breakfast combo
1BBBU - Doomsday + Brainstorm/SDT
5 (or 7BB) - Leyline of the Void-Helm of Obedience
6 - Painter-Grindstone

You forgot Aluren-Recruiter for only 2GG.


@CaptainHammer: You might also take a look at this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8460) which lists the most compact combos in the format (but sadly isn't updated frequently enough, see the last few pages).

[Captain_Morgan]

The other thing is there's really no Plan B. When Illusions was up against the wall, it had to play Illusions and hope for a Donate to get through. Against something like Painter Servant decks you can always attack with a creature.

Trix is just a one trick pony show. Disrupt the combo, and you just basically won.

[Obfuscate Freely]

I can't figure why the Painter's Servant + Grindstone combo is so popular when so many other, arguably better two card combos get completely ignored.
You are making two questionable implications here. The first is that Painter's Servant/Grindstone is seeing significant play, which is doubtful, and the second is that the play that it does see somehow indicates that the combo is any good, which it definitely isn't.

[Captain Hammer]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Yeah, I guess you're right, many of the good combos on here do see play a bit. And the ones that don't have significant weaknesses that make them worse.

But there is one notable exception to this...

Stuffy Doll + Guilty Conscience

This combo really should see more play than it does. When it was first printed, Time Vault was unerrated that same time, and people ran with that combo and ignored this one as a result. It was also proceeded by Flash combo which led to the combo being sidelined further, until people forgot all about it.

But Stuffy Doll is actually a very solid control card all around.

One could easily build a white based control deck, similar to the Mightly Quinn. It would splash either blue or black to answer opposing removal. White has tons of fantastic control elements that slow aggro and combo decks to a crawl. And Stuffy Doll works great defensively to hold back attackers as well, basically an indestrucable wall that redirects damage to your opponent.

Guilty Concience while not ideal removal, still functions as cheap removal. So both cards do fit really well in white control. And using them is a much faster and frankly easier win condition, than having to rely on creatures that take several turns to win, and have poor synergy with Wrath effects, Disks and other board sweepers unlike Stuffy Doll. And even the other combo enabler, Enlightened Tutor is great for fetching bombs like Ensnaring Bridges, Worships, Kegs, Disks, Ghostly Prisons while also being able to fetch 1 of utility cards like Aura of Silence, Oblivion Ring, Etherium Canonist and similar bombs. The deck could even splash blue as it's white requirements are minimal, thus letting it play FoW and either go with Back to Basics, or go with Mishra's Factory + Standstill.

Futhermore, given all the broken artifacts and enchantments that the deck would be playing, it could easily play 4 Replenish, a great way to return Disks and what not to play for multiple uses.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I explicitly explained why I don't run Stuffy-Conscience in Mighty Quinn.

[thefreakaccident]

In response to illusions first CIP trigger, Krosan Grip, the leaves play trigger will resolve first, causing a loss of 20 life, which is usually game over.

[morgan_coke]

Forget Krosan Grip, how about Force of Will?

Force (and counterspells in general) are the reason combo decks almost all run storm as a win condition. Storm isn't counterable, that's why it's awesome. Stuff like ill-don is cool and all, and so are things like channel-fireball. but they lose to counterspell. combos that lose to counterspell are generally much, much worse than combos that DON'T lose to counterspell.

[loop]

Force (and counterspells in general) are the reason combo decks almost all run storm as a win condition. Storm isn't counterable, that's why it's awesome.
Do you really think that's why Storm decks are strong?
I'll ask differently: do you think Stifle is a good card against TES?
Besides, FoW/counterspell is still very relevant against storm combo: you can't counter Tendrils, but why would you do that anyway? Just counter the tutors/engines. I think you're totally missing the point. Storm combo NEEDS to play protection against counters, otherwise it will lose to FoW, too.

[Nessaja]

Well, it certainly helps that storm isn't counterable. Imagine paying 18 life with Ad Nauseum just to see your tendtrills getting countered.

[loop]

My point is, it's very unlikely that the Storm player doesn't find a way to handle a counter/stifle/whatever post Ad Nauseam, with ~15 cards in hand. So even if it was counterable, it wouldn't really change anything: the best play would probably still be to counter the engine itself, ad nauseam.