Meandeck Open (12/28/08) - TOP EIGHT LISTS!

[Smmenen]

Top 4: Prize Split

Top 4 placement based on swiss standings.

1) Brian DeMars - The Deck (UW Control)

1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
9 Island
3 Tundra
3 Plains
3 Wasteland
2 Chrome Mox
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Back to Basics
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Spell Snare
1 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Moat
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Mulldrifter
2 Cunning Wish

Sideboard:
2 Disenchant
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Stifle
1 Counterspell
1 Wing Shards
1 Hydroblast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Orim's Chant
2 Kataki War's Wage
1 Energy Flux

2) John Pyror - 43 Land.dec

4 Exploration
4 Manabond
3 Gamble
3 Mulch
4 Life From the Loam
2 Barbarian Ring
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
4 Rishadan Port
4 Tiaga
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Nantuko Monastary
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Treetop Village
4 Maze of Ith
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 The Tabernacle of Pendral Vall
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Savannah

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Zuran Orb
3 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Firebold
2 Krosan Grip

3) Stephen Menendian - Ubgw Counterbalance-Goyf

4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Serum Visions
1 Stifle
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Krosan Grip
2 Stifle
1 Engineered Explosives

4) Michael Smith - Goyf/Tombstalker Aggro Control

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Snuff Out
1 Rushing River
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Divert
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Blue Elemental Blast

5) Rich Stachurski - Counter-Slivers

4 Aether Vial
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
4 Plated Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Stifle
3 Echoing Truth

6) Adam Yurchick -- DreadStill

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
3 Trinket Mage
2 Engineered Explosives
6 Snow-Covered Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Pyroclasm
2 Echoing Truth
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Prognetus

7) Cedric Phillips - The Rock

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Mesmeric Fiend
3 Tombstalker

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sidebaord:
4 Duress
3 Extirpate
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Infest

8) Mark Trogdon - Mono Blue Fish

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Wakethrasher
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Cursecatcher
4 Merrow Reejerry
4 Silvergil Adept
3 Stifle
2 Tidal Warrior
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
1 Rishadan Port
12 Island

Sideboard:
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Back to Basics
4 Relic of Progentus
4 Blue Elemental Blast

The Full Metagame Breakdown!:

2 UBr DreadStill
UBg Dreadstill (w/goyf)
3 R/G Beatz
4 Mono Blue Fish
Mono Blue Fish with Stifle-Naught Combo
UBGW Slivers w/o Force of Will
2 UBGR Counterbalance-Goyf/Swan Combo
Sea Stompy
Mono White Aggro
WRGU Zoo
Mono Black Nether Void
3 43 Land.dec
4 Mono White Prison (1 is Angel-Stax, 3 are Helm combo)
4 Ad Nauseam Combo
Affinity w/ Stifle-Naught combo
Mono Red Artifact Aggro
CounterSlivers
Manland Stompy
BRG Aggro Loam
Grw Survival
UBg Tomb/Goyf Aggro Control (Dream Team)
UBg Tomb/Goyf aggro conrol with bob
Affinity w/ Goyf
UB PolyMorph/Bitterblossom/Standstill
3 Ubgw Counterbalance-Goyf
Goblins
UGw Threshold
UBG Threshold
2 Affinity
UG Madness
Bw Aggro-Control
Mono Red Prison
The Rock
UW Control (The Deck)
Dredge
UBG Counterbalance-Goyf Control


Top 8 Playoff:

1) Rich Stachurski (Counterslivers)
8) Michael Smith Winner: Michael Smith

5) Mark Trogdon (Fish)
4) Brian DeMars (UW Control Winner: Brian DeMars

3) Cedric Phillips (The Rock)
6) John Pyror (Land.dec) Winner: John Pryor

7) Stephen Menendian
2) Adam Yurichick (Dreadstill) Winner: Stephen Menendian

[Shades]

Brian's list has 58 cards, I guess there are 2 Cunning wishes missing.

Anyway congrats on the great performance Meandeck. Especially Brians list is truely inspiring.

[AngryTroll]

Is that Merfolk deck 61 cards on purpose? Looks awesome...I am surprised by the lack of Dazes, especially with Wasteland, Stifle, and Cursecatcher. I suppose your opponents have to play around it assuming you play it, but with all the mana disruption built in, it seems like it'd be awesome.

That curve is awesome for some Counterbalance action:
1cc: 17 cards
2cc: 12 cards
3cc: 8 cards!
5ccc: 4 cards
Of course, adding in 3 Counterbalance and 3 Top messes with that curve and is a lot more mana-intensive than the current setup.

[FoolofaTook]

I looked at the UW Control deck and the first thing I thought was: "neat deck, bringing back an ancient archetype in style." The second thing I thought almost immediately after was: "Nobody playing goblins in that tourney or very few and he didn't meet them."

Still, it is a wonderful list.

[Smmenen]

Brian's list has 58 cards, I guess there are 2 Cunning wishes missing.

Anyway congrats on the great performance Meandeck. Especially Brians list is truely inspiring.

I'm guessing that's the case.

[Jaynel]

3 Leyline in the board, Steve? Really? What's the reasoning behind that?

[Smmenen]

3 Leyline in the board, Steve? Really? What's the reasoning behind that?

I played Patrick's 2007 Worlds list card for card. I wasn't sure what the reasoning was before testing the deck, but I don't want to lose to Dredge, and it's also good against Affinity.

[nitewolf9]

I played Patrick's 2007 Worlds list card for card. I wasn't sure what the reasoning was before testing the deck, but I don't want to lose to Dredge, and it's also good against Affinity.

I think he meant why 3 and not 4. If you're going to run leyline it seems that you want to maximize the chances of seeing it in your opening hand when you need it.

[frogboy]

asdf not this again.

If you determine that Leyline is the best sideboard card against an archtype, you play as many copies as you can fit in your sideboard. Sometimes that number is less than four because of other constraints.

[T is for TOOL]

If you determine that Leyline is the best sideboard card against an archtype, you play as many copies as you can fit in your sideboard.
Since Leyline typically must start the game in play to be effective, the probability of it being in your opening hand directly relates to its effectiveness as SB hate (i.e. The fewer copies that you run, the less effective it becomes against anything). If you determine that Leyline is the best graveyard hate that you can sideboard, but you don't have enough space to run 4, then it's perfectly reasonable to question your 'determination'.

[Nihil Credo]

Since Leyline typically must start the game in play to be effective, the probability of it being in your opening hand directly relates to its effectiveness as SB hate (i.e. The fewer copies that you run, the less effective it becomes against anything).

False. Each individual copy of Leyline of the Void improves your win chances against, say, Ichorid by the same percentage (let's say: 80% times the chance of having it in the opener plus 5% times the chance of drawing it later) regardless of how many other copies you play (in fact, it actually give you very slightly diminishing returns since multiple copies are redundant rather than cumulative).

If 4 Leylines are better than 4 Crypts, then 1/2/3 Leylines will also be better than 1/2/3 Crypts and vice-versa. The only factor that can make that untrue is if the cards interact with other copies of each other in different ways (eg. a second Leyline is dead vs. a second Relic cycles); or even if they interact with other candidates for the same slot (eg. Crypt + Relic is probably more often better than double Crypt or double Relic).


If you determine that Leyline is the best graveyard hate that you can sideboard, but you don't have enough space to run 4, then it's perfectly reasonable to question your 'determination'.Let's take Eva Green. No draw magic of any kind, Dark Ritual for powering a turn two Leyline, Thoughtseize that can take Chain of Vapor or Krosan Grip, and a fast, evasive clock that leaves the opponent with little time to find an answer; oh, and it uses its own graveyard, too, so it wants asymmetric hate. Leyline is overwhelmingly the best anti-graveyard card it can run.

Now let's say you want to run Eva Green at a tournament where Goblins, various Painter decks, and blue-based control will be huge, with Ichorid a distant fourth. Starting from a board of 4 Engineered Plagues, 4 Pithing Needles, 4 Chokes, and 3 Leylines of the Void, anything you would cut to fit the fourth Leyline is something that gives you a better return than it. That fact in no way points you towards replacing the other 3 Leylines with Crypt, Relic, Extirpate, Jailer, or what have you.

[T is for TOOL]

Each individual copy of Leyline of the Void improves your win chances against, say, Ichorid by the same percentage (let's say: 80% times the chance of having it in the opener plus 5% times the chance of drawing it later) regardless of how many other copies you play (in fact, it actually give you very slightly diminishing returns since multiple copies are redundant rather than cumulative).
Yes, the effectiveness of individual copies doesn't change. However running fewer copies of Leyline will lower the odds of seeing one in your opening hand.


If 4 Leylines are better than 4 Crypts, then 1/2/3 Leylines will also be better than 1/2/3 Crypts and vice-versa. The only factor that can make that untrue is if the cards interact with other copies of each other in different ways (eg. a second Leyline is dead vs. a second Relic cycles); or even if they interact with other candidates for the same slot (eg. Crypt + Relic is probably more often better than double Crypt or double Relic).
You must also include scenarios where you don't start with the card in your opening hand, but draw it later. Brainstorm, Ponder, Top, and Serum Visions can all snag you a timely Crypt in the first couple of turns when drawing Leyline is completely useless.


Let's take Eva Green. No draw magic of any kind, Dark Ritual for powering a turn two Leyline, Thoughtseize that can take Chain of Vapor or Krosan Grip, and a fast, evasive clock that leaves the opponent with little time to find an answer; oh, and it uses its own graveyard, too, so it wants asymmetric hate. Leyline is overwhelmingly the best anti-graveyard card it can run.
Even better than Extirpate???


Now let's say you want to run Eva Green at a tournament where Goblins, various Painter decks, and blue-based control will be huge, with Ichorid a distant fourth. Starting from a board of 4 Engineered Plagues, 4 Pithing Needles, 4 Chokes, and 3 Leylines of the Void, anything you would cut to fit the fourth Leyline is something that gives you a better return than it. That fact in no way points you towards replacing the other 3 Leylines with Crypt, Relic, Extirpate, Jailer, or what have you.
I'm not a fan of using hypothetical scenarios to prove points. That said, I would replace Pithing Needle #4 with Leyline #4.

[Nihil Credo]

Yes, the effectiveness of individual copies doesn't change. However running fewer copies of Leyline will lower the odds of seeing one in your opening hand.

Which is absolutely no different from how running fewer copies of Crypt will lower the odds of seeing one at all. Since fewer copies of Leylines will also lower the odds of drawing a dead one later, you're not getting diminishing returns here.


You must also include scenarios where you don't start with the card in your opening hand, but draw it later. Brainstorm, Ponder, Top, and Serum Visions can all snag you a timely Crypt in the first couple of turns when drawing Leyline is completely useless.

If you pay attention, you'll notice that doesn't contradict anything that I said.

[spirit of the wretch]

There IS however the huge difference Crypt and Leyline, when it comes to the mana cost. Topdecking a Crypt turn 3 is just fine while topdecking a Leyline isn't. Furthermore the Crypt has an immediate effect on the opponent's graveyard and Leyline hasn't.
So basically your reasoning is true, if Leyline is better than Crypt, than it's the better card no matter how many copies you play. The problem is, that Leyline itself get significantly worse if you don't have it in your opening hand (you won't be able to cast it for quite some time in Threshold and by that time, the effect isn't as potent). Against decks like Ichorid Leyline has basically no effect (yay for hyperbole) if you don't have it in your opening hand.
That is the reason why it is probably the correct decision to play a full playset of Leylines. In comparison to Crypt the card gets much worse for each copy you don't play (because the risk of having no effect at all rises faster).
Anyway, just my 2 cent on that topic.

(Edit because I don't want to drown the thread in Leyline posts)

What I am arguing is precisely that by decreasing the copies it doesn't get worse any faster than Crypt, because the chance of having no effect at all decreases exactly at the same speed as that of having it in your hand. I can't come up with a way to explain that in a much clearer way. - NC

[Adan]

Another Top8 that proves how fucking random Legacy is. Period.

Smmenen's deck is also an absolute rape of Threshold, meh.

The Serum Visions should be Portent, the Stifle should be the 4th Counterbalance, the Explosives should be a 4th Daze... There should be 4 Thoughtseizes and somehow there should only be 16 lands at all because NQGb has got the lowest curve of all Threshold builds.

Leylines shouldn't be played at all (need to be in the opening hand or they suck. All they do is ping you for 4 when revealed with Confidant.)

Blah.

edit: @ Leyline-Flamewar:

It's obvious that the odds of having either Crypt or Leyline in the opening hand are the same when you are running 3 of either Leyline or Crypt.
But, the main difference is that you can efford running 3 Crypts because you are not bound to having them in your opening hand. YOu can still dig for them with cantrips in the good old Threshold-manner, find them and still play and activate them as Tormod's Crypte are 4free.

Leylines however bind you to keep them in your opening hand, sometimes they make you keep bad hands just because you want the Leyline-Effect. Additionally, Leylines suck in multiples where mutiple Crypts are OK or even desireable (Ichorid).
So, Leylines are in general suboptimal as you are always bound to board 4 Leylines in (to maximize the odds of having them in the opening hand), but you actually don't want more than 1 in the entire game.

Another reason is that Leylines can easily be disposed by Chain of Vapor which equals "GG" since Ichorid is too fast and will most likely finish you before you can replay Leyline. Even if you can replay them, they won't have the same effect like Tormod's Crypt.
This may contradict with my "multiple Leyline argument", but I think my rating of the 2 cards portait how clunky Leylines really are.

[kirdape3]

I mean, he just copied Patrick Chapin's 75 from Worlds and crushed with it. I happen to believe that Chapin's deckbuilding skill is sufficient to warrant adopting his deck without modification - which is certainly not something that can be said for the vast majority of people on this website.

[Adan]

But Patrick Chapin is a pro and most users on TS are not.

Is that really supposed to be a counter-argument to everything said before?

[kirdape3]

Yes.

When you have a deck that's proven from a source that is proven, why change it? PChapin did well at Worlds with the deck, Steve took the exact same list and also did well with it. I'm not sure what the problem is, especially since his only loss was to Dreadnought and he got Yurchick back in the Top 8.

I do not have the same faith in the decks put forth by most members of this site.

[Adan]

Yes.

When you have a deck that's proven from a source that is proven, why change it?

Though I am a kind of netdecker myself, I am still able to, you know, use my brain and utilize logical reasoning to judge whether some cards have their right to exist or not.
We still live in a Age of Enlightenment. Logical reasoning & rational thinking > belief.


PChapin did well at Worlds with the deck, Steve took the exact same list and also did well with it. I'm not sure what the problem is, especially since his only loss was to Dreadnought and he got Yurchick back in the Top 8.

I do not have the same faith in the decks put forth by most members of this site.

Anyway, your argument is absolutely useless for any kind of further discussion. It just proves that you are too lazy to think.
Actually there was no offense intended, but I can't help it.

[yawg07]

I hate the "Well he's a pro, his deck is just fucking better than yours" argument.
If that is true, how will anyone else become pro?

When I was there Steve M was saying that I got a ton of people to come along and he wondered if it was because Chapin was there.
My answer was simply "No.... we came here because there was a big tournament."

[nitewolf9]

When you have a deck that's proven from a source that is proven, why change it? PChapin did well at Worlds with the deck, Steve took the exact same list and also did well with it.

I would hardly call this proven. Most pros don't spend very much time on legacy because it is not worth their effort. Well, yet...hopefully Wizards is just starting to support the format and there will be more and more high level Legacy tournaments. For now the majority of them just pick up decks that are handed to them when the odd Legacy event occurs.

But anyway, someone please tell me how you can justify a 1 of stifle in this deck. Especially when you are running 3 Daze and only 2 Thoughtseize. Is it going to be that much of a "savage rip" in the late game? I'm just kind of confused by these card choices.

[Smmenen]

Another Top8 that proves how fucking random Legacy is. Period.

Smmenen's deck is also an absolute rape of Threshold, meh.

If you are such a rational, logical thinker, why do you resort to such ridiculous hyperbole?

If I had adopted those minor tweaks you suggested, the difference would have been tiny. That can hardly be described as an "absolute rape."

I am very surprised that there is no thread on Ubgw Threshold. Care to suggest a list you consider optimal?

[yawg07]

Your deck did well, there is no question.
But it is a bit unorthodox, you have to admit.
I know you just copied a list and went with it, but WHY is what I want to know.
Why not play with it and tune it, why just play what is written before you?

[Smmenen]

Your deck did well, there is no question.
But it is a bit unorthodox, you have to admit.
I know you just copied a list and went with it, but WHY is what I want to know.
Why not play with it and tune it, why just play what is written before you?


The explanation is in my article on Monday, and it's a bit non-intuitive. It has to do with my article this week.

One thing I've noticed in Threshold lists is the lack of white. Swords to Plowshares is too good, imo, to not run. I also think that black is too good to not run. I have no idea what the argument is against 4 color, but if it hinges on the mana base, all I can say is that I did quite a bit of testing, and in that testing and in the tournament, it was very good. I could see minor tweaking, but the four color mana base worked fine.

[Afro]

When I was there Steve M was saying that I got a ton of people to come along and he wondered if it was because Chapin was there.
My answer was simply "No.... we came here because there was a big tournament."

At least meeting him didn't cost you $711.00. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=170269497698)

[Smmenen]

At least meeting him didn't cost you $711.00. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=170269497698)


Ha!

I was genuinely curious what it was that brought that big crew from Rittman Ohio to Cbus. It was great to meet those guys, and I'm glad that Ohio has so many legacy competitors! We've got to keep this stuff going. The Ohio/PA/MI region can stand toe to toe with everyone else.

[Kilz88]

The fact is that none of these "pros" ever play legacy. The real legacy pros are unknown due to wizards lack of support for the format. On the contrary, this GP will hopefully surely prove that legacy is an interesting and fun format and we will be able to learn who the real "pros" are in time. The last GP was an epic fail on wizards part and doesnt count. No legacy veterans even gave this tournament the time of day because they have all the cards and didnt want to be beaten by someone who was able to just proxy 20 cards and beat them due to a bad match up or something. The facts will be brought to the table come march and then we can all argue some more about "pros" and how "random" this format is. The End.

[jazzykat]

Looking over the lists:

1. the UW control deck looks very elegant and reminiscent of keeper
2. the UGbw thresh list has some very interesting less than 4 ofs.
A. I understand 3 dazes as that was common a year or 2 ago and tends to make sense.
B. The singleton EE also has merit as you can often dig for it because the control/removal suite should keep you in pretty good stead.
C. The 2 Thoughtseize and 1 Stifle are bewildering. The only reason I would play less than 4 is if I was only concerned with slow control decks, but then it is normally cut down to 3. Is there some type of magic ratio of disruption that people are trying to run and supplementing them with singletons?
D. 3 LotV? Is there some type of mulliganing math that proves 3 in your SB is better than 4 if you really need the slots or something?

I won't pay $711 to meet Pat Chapin but I would love to know what he was thinking when he made this deck!

Also, I think that play skill and preparation can go a heck of a long way towards winning with "suboptimal" (who really knows if the list is?) decks.

[yawg07]

Ha!

I was genuinely curious what it was that brought that big crew from Rittman Ohio to Cbus. It was great to meet those guys, and I'm glad that Ohio has so many legacy competitors! We've got to keep this stuff going. The Ohio/PA/MI region can stand toe to toe with everyone else.

Damn right! Also, cash prize was an EXCELLENT thing, by the way. Keep that up and we'll be back for sure.
I did notice that out of those 55 people, if you were to point out the noisiest, craziest people, it was us :laugh:
Except for Pyror, he is VERY calm and collected. That doesn't mean you can't get him going, though.
I was off the hook that day, I couldn't shut up, hahaha

[Arkham]

I was off the hook that day, I couldn't shut up, hahaha

Yeah, no need at all to brush up on your New York accent ever again.

Really. :wink:

[KillemallCFH]

No legacy veterans even gave this tournament the time of day because they have all the cards and didnt want to be beaten by someone who was able to just proxy 20 cards and beat them due to a bad match up or something.Seriously, shut up.

Magic is a game of strategy, not of who has the most money. Who gives a shit if the cards are real or not? If someone was able to build a good deck and pilot it well, they deserve to Top8.

[Adan]

If you are such a rational, logical thinker, why do you resort to such ridiculous hyperbole?

Because I can. :cool:

And well, it's obvious that "XY is pro, XY knows best!" is stupid. If certain people can elaborate on their choices and explain why they decided to run a certain card, I'm fine with it.

For example: Survival.

Survival decklists always look random like hell. But when I decided to try and play Survival, I IMed Di and he explaind me why his deck actually looked like it did back then and told me things to consider, tricks and whatsover.

But in this situation where everyone is just staring at a certain list with this huge "WTF?!" written on their foreheads, the pilot himself just saying "I simply netdecked it, I have nothing to do with it" adn we don't have any reasoning why the deck looks like it is, it's just dead wrong to say "The designer is a pro, he knows best".


If I had adopted those minor tweaks you suggested, the difference would have been tiny. That can hardly be described as an "absolute rape."

I admit that I was exaggerating, but there is no reason to play a suboptimal build just because "it makes no difference".


I am very surprised that there is no thread on Ubgw Threshold. Care to suggest a list you consider optimal?

The core of your deck is UGb, check out the UGb Threshold thread.
I played such a build myself, but without white splash (I had it during some period of time but I found the manabase unstable. But I have not played it since ages, but I might try it again).

[spirit of the wretch]

I don't mean to turn this into another "OMFG teh pros suckzorzzz at our beloved format"-Thread, but I really think Adan has a point there. Now, certainly Chapin is a hell of a player and deckbuilder, but you should be allowed to question some of his choices. And in that list there are some really weird ones which Adan pointed out in his first post. So for us non-premium account guys Steve, could you please point them out. Sure, they wouldn't change the deck much, but playing a strictly suboptimal deck "because the pro said so" doesn't seem like an entirely good reasoning.

[Smmenen]

I don't mean to turn this into another "OMFG teh pros suckzorzzz at our beloved format"-Thread, but I really think Adan has a point there. Now, certainly Chapin is a hell of a player and deckbuilder, but you should be allowed to question some of his choices. And in that list there are some really weird ones which Adan pointed out in his first post. So for us non-premium account guys Steve, could you please point them out. Sure, they wouldn't change the deck much, but playing a strictly suboptimal deck "because the pro said so" doesn't seem like an entirely good reasoning.

I'm curious: which choices would you characterize as "really weird" as opposed to maybe, just a little off or slightly suboptimal?

[Illissius]

You can't use "because a pro built it" as a logical argument for why one deck is better than another. But you can use it as a perfectly justified reason for why you're playing one deck in a tournament and not another -- when you netdeck, the whole point is that you're copying the work of someone else who designed a good deck and did well with it. You may not know why they made certain choices, but you trust in their ability to have made those choices well. Once you actually have experience with the build, the reason for those choices may become evident to you, or if they don't, you can then change them. But the proposition that you can change the deck and make it better, rather than worse, merely by looking at it, when a very good player brought it to its current form with actual work and testing, is questionable at best.

Again, this is not a logical argument for the deck being better. In that respect, it's a non-argument. It's an argument for why you have more confidence in the design of one deck than another in cases where you aren't willing or able to put the work into designing a deck yourself.

[spirit of the wretch]

I'm curious: which choices would you characterize as "really weird" as opposed to maybe, just a little off or slightly suboptimal?

Weird:
1 Stifle (I honestly don't understand this one at all)
1 Engineered Explosives (a one off that you can't tutor for?)
2 Thoughtseize (discard is good in the early game, so you want to draw it soon, therefore you should play a playset)
3 Leyline of the Void (I still think 4 is the mathematically optimal number here)

Suboptimal:
3 Counterbalance (I would always play 4 of these. Just way to good)
3 Daze (See above)
1 Serum Visions (I think I read about it somewhere, that Portent > Serum Visions)
18 land (seems like at least one, maybe two too many)

[Zach Tartell]

I'm more interested in the metagame breakdown. Somebody gonna do that?

'Cause I do 'em soemthing fierce. And way more punctual.

[rsaunder]

I'm more interested in the metagame breakdown. Somebody gonna do that?

'Cause I do 'em soemthing fierce. And way more punctual.
Oh Zach, you're so modest <3

[yawg07]

I think there was one, maybe two Goblin decks haha
However there were a lot of "better than goblins" AKA Merfolk

[Smmenen]

Weird:
1 Stifle (I honestly don't understand this one at all)
1 Engineered Explosives (a one off that you can't tutor for?)
2 Thoughtseize (discard is good in the early game, so you want to draw it soon, therefore you should play a playset)
3 Leyline of the Void (I still think 4 is the mathematically optimal number here)

Suboptimal:
3 Counterbalance (I would always play 4 of these. Just way to good)
3 Daze (See above)
1 Serum Visions (I think I read about it somewhere, that Portent > Serum Visions)
18 land (seems like at least one, maybe two too many)


Ok, so none of them were "really weird," just "weird," and "suboptimal." That's what I was trying to clarify. It seems like there is alot of extreme verbiage being thrown around.

[Bardo]

I am very surprised that there is no thread on Ubgw Threshold. Care to suggest a list you consider optimal?

There's a few Ubgw lists in the Ugw thread, I think.

Re: Playing Chapin's list. I agree with everyone above that the card choices are not optimal, but I also understand running the thing anyway, just as an homage. I mean, it's "close enough," though maybe not "completely there." If I were to tune it up a bit:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

Sideboard
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip

I'm like 95% on this. CB #4 may be better as Bob #4, though I'm not sure. In the board, I'm not committed to the anti-Dredge package; maybe it should be 3 Crypt / 1 Relic, 4 Leyline, etc. Regardless, I think this is an improvement over the Chapin list, it's certainly better than the list I ran the last time I ran Ugbw:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10178

[Smmenen]

I don't want to turn this thread into a Threshold discussion, but that list does look really good.

[Zach Tartell]

How about instead of whining about the word "really" and talking about threshold we do a metagame breakdown?

I think that'd be a refreshing change of pace.

[Smmenen]

How about instead of whining about the word "really" and talking about threshold we do a metagame breakdown?

I think that'd be a refreshing change of pace.

Well, for refreshment, go to the beginning of the thread, where I've edited the first post with the full metagame breakdown.
It's not whining to state that there is too much hyperbole being thrown around. Can't we discuss things without saying silly things like "absolute rape" or "very weird" when we, in fact, don't mean it?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How does Helm-Combo interact with the words "Mono-White"?

Are they really relying on mulliganing into Leyline? That seems extremely subpar.

[Smmenen]

How does Helm-Combo interact with the words "Mono-White"?

Are they really relying on mulliganing into Leyline? That seems extremely subpar.

Yeah -- they were running Scrublands for Leyline. My error.

[freakish777]

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

Sideboard
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip

I'm like 95% on this.



-1 Daze
-1 USea
-1 Tundra

+1 City of Brass
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Bob


Can we please stop discussing Smmenen's list now?

Also, the $711 wasn't to meet Chapin. Instead it was paying him for probably around 14 to 20 hours of his time ($40ish an hour, which doesn't seem completely unreasonable if you're actually gaining a tangible benefit from it, not saying I'd pay that rate for that particular service, but obviously someone was willing too).

I hope you guys continue to bring in 40~60 people an event and that your next event is a success (and that you can guarentee T8 prizes next time). Looking forward to the T8 lists from the next event.

[yawg07]

Ad Nauseam combo needs to be broken down.
I was playing TES, not ANT.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah -- they were running Scrublands for Leyline. My error.

Ah. How does that happen anyway? Was that a team deck or something? I'd be interested in a list.

[juventus]

Since Leyline typically must start the game in play to be effective, the probability of it being in your opening hand directly relates to its effectiveness as SB hate (i.e. The fewer copies that you run, the less effective it becomes against anything). If you determine that Leyline is the best graveyard hate that you can sideboard, but you don't have enough space to run 4, then it's perfectly reasonable to question your 'determination'.

you don't understand math lol.

You don't understand the rules for posting. Next time you get a warning.
-TOOL

[hi-val]

Ah. How does that happen anyway? Was that a team deck or something? I'd be interested in a list.

I think it was also running X number of Mox Diamonds too.

[Jedi Knight]

I thought the turn-out was great for this event.Two of my friends made top 4
Looking foward to the next event..By the way wtf's up with chapins attitude,doese he think his shit don't stink?

Also, congrats to Brian DeMars....I thought your u/w control deck was the most interesting deck I saw there all day. GO Mull Drifter GO! but seriously, kick ass deck..

[Jedi Knight]

Anyone have a have S/B suggestions for dreadstill U/R? Have been testing the deck and it just doesn't seem to get there 80% of the time!Maybe it's the board.
:frown:

Wrong thread. Try here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8964
- Bardo