[DECK] Mono-red Stacks

[icy_triskelion]

Hello to all. This is my first post on the Source. Some people for the MEANDECK Legacy Open wanted me to post my deck here. So here it is:

Creatures
4 Goblin Welder
3 Covetous Dragon

Artifact Creatures
1 KARN!!!!!!!
3 Razormane Masticore
4 Solemn Simulacrum

Artifacts
2 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Tangle Wire
3 Smokestack
3 C.o.W.
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

Lands
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Wastelands
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Crystal Vien
7 Mountain
4 Mishra's Factory


Side Board
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Defense Grid
3 Powder Keg
2 Masticore

Now, some might ask yourself "Why red and not white?" I mainly play Vintage Shops, mainly MUD, and being under Mark Trogan and Jerry Yang guidance, red seemed to fit my play style more. I top 16 with this deck going 4-2(9-6-0 game count) losing to 4 Color Thresh and Counter Sliver. I did make a lot a of play mistakes that Mark pointed out. But this deck did surprise alot of people.

After the tourney, I decided to make some changes. I'm dropping the SoR to the board to add 2 Trinisphere and 2 SSG main. I thought of upping my Smokestack and Tangle count to 4 ofs, but I want to test this first. Also thought of cutting one Ghost Quarter to add an artifact land for Welder. As for the board, with the addtion of the SoR's, the Masticores will be cut and probably one Defense Grid. I was also going to test Relic of Progenitus in the place of two of the Tormod's Crypts.

I hope everyone likes my idea and I hope to here any suggestions.

[chokin]

If I were running Welder, I'd rather have a Sundering Titan to OMNOMNOM on lands. Also what's up with the single Crystal Veins? I'm pretty sure that Tomb is better. And where are your City of Traitors? Also, Ghost Quarter is meh imo.

[icy_triskelion]

Well, I'll probably be testing Titan soon. As for one-times Crystal Vein, it gets me the extra mana when I need it, I tend to kick my own a$$ with Tomb and City's seem to be a waste to me. And as for Ghost Quarter, most multi-color decks only run 3-4 basic, so with Wasteland to take card of the non-basic, Ghost Quarter takes care of the basic land. Now yes, they get to search for a replacement land, but when they run out, Ghost Quarter is now like a Strip Mine.

[the resurrection]

I would play something like this:

4 Great furnace
4 wasteland
4 Ancient tomb
0-4 Darksteel Citadel
2-4 ciy of traitors
x mountain

1 Sundering Titan
4 Goblin Welder
1 karn

0-4 Gamble

2-3 tangle Wire
4 trinisphere
2 crucible of Worlds
4 Mox diamond
3-4 SMOKESTAK
x other things

c-ya

[DeathScythe]

I would play something like this:

4 Great furnace
4 wasteland
4 Ancient tomb
0-4 Darksteel Citadel
2-4 ciy of traitors
x mountain

1 Sundering Titan
4 Goblin Welder
1 karn

0-4 Gamble

2-3 tangle Wire
4 trinisphere
2 crucible of Worlds
4 Mox diamond
3-4 SMOKESTAK
x other things

c-ya

And may I ask why you would play it like this?

Also, why should I play this build and not MoonStax? What makes this build better compared to that one?

[Captain Hammer]

This build looks pretty cool.

I think you should take a look at Dragon Stompy and borrow some tech from there too.

For example, Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon, singlehandedly wipeout half the metagame.

[icy_triskelion]

I would play the Moon Duders but I don't know what or how to fit them in.

[Captain Hammer]

The manabase needs work...

But on top of that, the below business spells all seem subpar.

3 Razormane Masticore -3 damage doesn't kill anything this meta, not worth card disadvantage.
4 Solemn Simulacrum - good combo with Welder but otherwise pretty weak.
4 Sphere of Resistance - meh all around.
3 Tangle Wire - there's is a reason exactly 0 decks in the format play this card, it's just no longer up to par
3 Smokestack - pretty slow
3 C.o.W - great with Wasteland, but the whole Wastelock strategy is unneccesary when you could just play Moons instead.

[icy_triskelion]

Umm...
Razormane Masticore- I'll do 3 damage to your 4/5 Tarmogoyf, draw, declare attacks, take 5 or lose Tarmogoyf. Also kills bob's, mage's, merfolk's, and other creature with toughness less then 3.
Solemn Simulacrum- Rampant Growth and draw engine sounds good to me.
Sphere of Resistance- great against combo, moving to board.
Tangle Wire- stalls the game to gain board control.
Smokestack- clears the board and should be an auto counter to blue decks which make it a good bait spell and if countered, bring back it with Welder.
Crucible of Worlds- helps fuel Smokestack and if I need to go on defense, helps bring back Factories. Also go Strip lock with Ghost Quarters when opponent runs out of basic lands.

[Captain Hammer]

The crux of the problem is that most of those cards cost too much mana, and take too long to work, for the minimal impact they have on the board.


Umm...
Razormane Masticore- I'll do 3 damage to your 4/5 Tarmogoyf, draw, declare attacks, take 5 or lose Tarmogoyf. Also kills bob's, mage's, merfolk's, and other creature with toughness less then 3.

Yes, so they take five damage, then swing at you for five with their 5/6 goyf.

Only difference is, they didn't have to spend 5 mana to pay goyf, and discard a card to it each turn.

Chances are, since Goyf costs 2 mana and Razormane costs five, they'll have swung at you once or twice already so you'll be that one needing to play defense, not them.

Fact is, Razormane was only half way decent back when it actually had targets.

Now that it can't hit 80% of the targets in this meta, Mongoose, Goyf, Mystic Enforcer, Phyrexian Dreadnought, or Tombstalker, they're no reason to play the card anymore. That's why Dragon Stompy cut it too.

[chokin]

I like to think that the origin of Dragon Stompy has some ties to Red Stax.

Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon deal with nonbasics while only hurting your accelerated lands. There used to be a lot of decks that would scoop to a Turn 1 Moon effect, but this strategy has weakened (still pretty good though). It still plays Chalice and Trinisphere, which is nice too. It replaces Smokestack and lockdown for the aggro approach though giving it Raiders, Dragons, and Sloggers alongside the open slot of Mauler/Sulfer Elemental.

Traditional Red Stax is pretty much dead in my opinion. You are unable to abuse the Smokestack card advantage as much as the other Stax decks. Also defensively there aren't many good cards out there to save you other than Rolling Earthquake.

I think a more modern Mono Red "Stax" list would be something like Dragon Stompy. First, I'd swap to Dragon Stompy's mana base of 10 Mountain, 8 2manaland, 4 SSG, 4 Chrome Mox. Your main disruption package would have 7-8 Moon effects, 4 Trinisphere, and 4 CotV. If you wanted to support the Smokestack route, I'd keep in Crucible and possibly include Siege Gang Commander to stall the Stack. Finishers could be anything from the DS package. Red Akroma is strong, I've seen some Torchlings work well, I've also seen Arc-Slogger win games by himself.

Edit:

Yeah don't play any Masticores. Slogger can eat Goyf pretty easily. Or a RPD with Hellbent. Dreadnought is a pain, but early CotV will deal with that sucker. Stalker dies to a flying meanfaced RPD. If you have real problems with the big 3 (Goyf TS and PD) screw their manabase with Blood Moon and abandon the 2 card combo soft lock of Wasteland and Crucible.

Also, 3Sphere breaks PD pretty hard. 5U and 2 cards for a 12/12 trampler isn't as good as the original 1U 2 for 12/12 trampler.

[Captain Hammer]

I agree with chokin's post with two amendments.

I don't think it's worth it to play Crucible + Smokestack, but if you do, then you should absolutley switch over from Chrome Mox to Mox Diamond.

Manabases that are built around Mox Diamond I've found to be a lot more stable and consistent than those built around Chrome Mox (the reason why Dragon Stompy and Fairie Stompy have inconsistent mana imo).

[Media314r8]

I like the idea of gamble with welder on the board, so long as he doesn't bite it in response, you can get any of your anti- x deck cards (3 sphere/stack vs control/combo, chalice vs thresh, possibly bridge vs goblins [to later be welded away]) and whether or not it resolves or hits the bin via gamble's drawback, red art lands and diamond mox allways allow you to weld them back into play. welding simulcrum and/or titan is obv the hotness. I believe that the art lands keep their art supertype when under moon, so they can still be welded post-moon. (mods correct me if I'm wrong here) I would probably play 4 blood moons, no magus if you feel moon effects are the way to go. (removal is your weakness, and you play no equips to turn him into a threat.)

[SuperBean]

1 Ghost Quarter is good in Blue Stacks with Mindlock Orb.. But that's really about it.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I know that Wildfire is anti-synergy with Welder, but I don't think it's so bad that Wildfire doesn't bear considering. I also liked the Sundering Titan idea, and the Blood Moon idea. It seems like one of the advantages of red is that it has more mana denial backup to the Stax shell than white does, and comparable board control... I guess it just seems that y'all should up the board control by a little bit.

Also, for those folks that don't mind spending about eighty bucks on an obscure card, Rolling Earthquake is pretty pimp... Although Starstorm is a pretty decent replacement for the rest of us, and in a more defensive deck, not hitting players would be a good thing rather than bad.

[emidln]

I know that Wildfire is anti-synergy with Welder, but I don't think it's so bad that Wildfire doesn't bear considering. I also liked the Sundering Titan idea, and the Blood Moon idea. It seems like one of the advantages of red is that it has more mana denial backup to the Stax shell than white does, and comparable board control... I guess it just seems that y'all should up the board control by a little bit.

Also, for those folks that don't mind spending about eighty bucks on an obscure card, Rolling Earthquake is pretty pimp... Although Starstorm is a pretty decent replacement for the rest of us, and in a more defensive deck, not hitting players would be a good thing rather than bad.

When I played Sun Tower I killed far more opponents with Rolling Earthquake than Rolling Earthquake ever put me into a position where I'd die if I used it. I probably used it to draw more games by killing both of us than situations arose where it would only kill me.

[icy_triskelion]

Well after playing Jerry's lost of:
6 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Crystal Vein
2 Barbarian Ring
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Welder
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Razormane Masticore
3 Tangle Wire
3 Smokestack
2 Karn, Silver Golem

I decided to go back to my original list and went 2-1 losing to counter-top. So I'm 1-2 versus counter-top but I beat Dreadstill running Counter-top making me 2-2 versus Counter-top. I decided to but 2-Barb. Ring and 2-SSG in my board just in case and cut one Powder Keg for one S. Titan. I'll seeif that is relevant to my play style. I don't know why Jerry's list didn't work over mine, but for some reason mine flows better over his. I don't know why at all. His amount of mana sources are the same, 26/26, but I went 2-X in testing.