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Piceli89
01-01-2009, 05:16 PM
So, here we are. I wanted to build a deck quite nice and fun to be played, which could exploit the cards which are currently wrecking the formats (or, at least, very strong), which played my favourite cards ( stifle-wasteland for huge mana denial and blue free-counters for huge opponent's ball -breaking, aether vial which is the card i mostly fear by myself when playing against someone) , which could play saucy beefs without going out the UR colors. No tarmogoyf, then. Fortunately.
I reasoned on what may be some of the most interesting creatures that can be vialed and offer an optimal effect. Here i came to
-Magus of the moon: 2R, 2/2 , " fuck half your opponent's lands colours and toss him in confusion".
-Epochrasite: the alternative beef of the deck which works godly with vial ( 4/4), a good solution without tarmogoyf and, in some cases, even bigger than tarmogoyf, to be vialed and used as a blocker when he's attacking with his silly 1G 3/4 and he's thinking "well, he plays UR, there are no creatures bigger than goyf in those colours". Pff.
Also, this guy can be a good blocker in games which are going to be slow, because of its "almost-immortality" (let's call it in this way).
-Cursecatcher: well, i personally LOVE this dude and think he's way too underrated. the possibility to go "vial and.. surprise !" with a walking daze is too good not to be included in this deck, counting that he represents a consistent problem for all those decks relying on sorceries and instants, and by this i wanna mean landstill, ichorid, and yes, even thresh, which aren't exactly tier 4s. I won many games thanks to him with merfolks, so i wanted to have him also here.
Not to mention that he is a "automatically win counter wars " when you're trying to resolve a magus, opponent is tapped out and FoWs.
- Sage of Epityr: well, i know that you'll think he's more a pauper decks' vintage cards, but he combines well with every form of card drawing- cantripping, and sometimes digs for that card which is required instantly. however, I am still not completely convinced of him in this deck in spite of some synergies with other cards (you'll see afterwards), but i can't find a decent replacement for him.
- Grim Lavamancer: the best 1-cc critter for every fish-esque decks, he kills creatures and even opponents alone, fed with fetched and cantrips.
I couldn't not put him here, he fits perfectly also with the " keep the toilet cleaned " issue (another time, you'll see afterwards).

Da Spells:
Aether vial :the core of the deck, wins games alone if resolved (early). Extremely synergic with every creature forementioned above (perhaps not that great with Grim lavamancer, but you can vial it eot and begin to shot the turn after).
Force of Will: well, it's quite good for a blue deck.
Daze: well, it's quite good for a blue and fishy deck.
Brainstorm: well, it's quite good for a blue deck needing graveyard to be big to be emptied by lavamancer. With fetches, it's nuts.
Fire/Ice: polivalent solution, usually fires tiny creatures' asses ( confidant, etc etc , but can also tap a permanent and cantrips. here there 's a little snergy between ice and Epityr.
Echoing Truth: best bouncer blue has, IMO. Again, another very polivalent card i can't give up, wanted to include it maindeck because it can solve some of the critical cards which wreck this deck- chalice@1 and a resolved dreadnought is really, really bad.
Relic Of progenitus: Maindeck to fight since g1 the overpowered decks of this format abusing the yard: threshold ( which would be quite critical if these weren't here), aggro loam, ichorid, team america ( where relic wrecks completely his win-cons and, with a landed MotM, is almost gg), and many others.
Stifle: Stifle > metagame, no other words needed.

Lands: Of course, since i pack MotM , i can't rely too much on volcanics. And, since red is just a few quantity of cards in this deck, this is already not needed.
Volcanic Islands: UR dual.
Islands: wins games.
(few) Mountains: good.
Wasteland: well , i really wanted the Land Destruction package to be complete, so i decided to put them in spite of Magus Of the Moon. Generally, i saw that i preferred wastelanding an opponent's nonbasic rather than save it to cast magus, this usually because i could slow him down in this way and gain the time needed to charge my vials and toss freely Magus in the game when it was needed. i know this seems to be at least antisynergic, but i can ensure you that it worked msot of the times.

Another antisynergy is the one between Lavamancer and Relic. But i wanted to pack both, and noticed that relic offers an excellent dose of "prevention" just with the first ability if it touches ground since the first turns of the game. Removing one per turn may seem inconsistent, but it remands Tombstalker's arrival ( if he'll ever arrive :laugh: ) , keeps that obesus tarmogoyf on a diet along with lavamancer, and prevents life from the loam from getting too much advantaging with its engine. If it would happen that i need both to shot with lavamancer and remove with relic, i usually opt for relic, since this deck tends to have lots of cc-1 stuff and free counters that fill the yard quite fastly. Moreover, the relic cantrips, giving me new cards to be subsequently tossed into the yard and to be eaten by lavamancer. Of course, this changes from the single situation i'm facing.

And so i came to a list:

Lands- 20
2 Flooded Strand
4 polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained mire
3 Volcanic Island
5 island
1 mountain
4 wasteland

Creatures-16
4 Cursecatcher
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Sage of Epityr
3 Epochrasite (3 because he is not that good without vial)
3 Magus of the Moon

Spells-24

4 Aether vial
3 Stifle
2 Relic Of Progenitus ( perhaps i'd have to add the third , but i feel comfortable with 2 -ofs for now.. brainstorm, f/i and epityr make my life easier in getting it)
4 Brainstorm
3 daze ( not 4 because magus needs a bit of land count, and vial isn't always there..and the mana is very tight, as in every fish-style deck)
4 FoW
2 Fire/Ice
2 ETruth

TOT. 60

Sideboard (15)- the same ol' stuff
1 relic of progenitus
3 Propaganda (goblins are bastard)
3 Divert ( my tech against the archetypes this deck suffers more: the rock, black discard, and.. burn, sligh, boros.. but also useful against combo )
2 Hurkyl's recall (against Stompies and Staxx- and affinity, with Etruths it pwns hard)
3 pyroblast - because blue sucks, yeah
3 Pithing Needle (mass removals such as EE which is a real pain in the ass)



The possible cards that didn't make the cut are Ninja of the deep hours, which is IMO too weak in legacy to be abused ( since legacy is a format where removals are rampant), and this deck really can't support him, having only few cc1 creatures that don't fly ( catcher, lavamancer- which you usually don't want to take in hand- and epityr). moreover, i think that ninja can be fully exploited only when paired with standstill, and i couldn't pick this up because of the ( not really big, but still existing ) antisinergy with epochrasite. And, of course, also because if i'd run Standstill, i'd have to run also mishra's factories, which isn't very good with magus of the moon.


I tested this on MWS and got quite successful against Threshold , TA and landstill. White staxx and DStompy is a bit harsher g1, but with the proper sb changes it gets easier. Goblins and hyperaggros, of course, are almost an autoloss.
Ichorid can be fought since g1 thanks to the relics and the counters--package ( and thanks to cursecatcher).
ANT is still to be properly tested, but it should be quite favorable (divert is da real pwner against those orims , a real time walk for us every time).


Well, I'd like if some people would like to give this deck a try and tell me their considerations and advices, of whichever kind. Bad flamings and demonstrations of despise towards me are accepted, too, but proposals in how to improve this little son o' mine would be better. :laugh:

Phoenix Ignition
01-01-2009, 06:39 PM
Lands- 20
2 Flooded Strand
4 polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained mire
3 Volcanic Island
5 island
1 mountain
4 wasteland

Creatures-16
4 Cursecatcher
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Sage of Epityr
3 Epochrasite (3 because he is not that good without vial)
3 Magus of the Moon

Spells-24

4 Aether vial
3 Stifle
2 Relic Of Progenitus ( perhaps i'd have to add the third , but i feel comfortable with 2 -ofs for now.. brainstorm, f/i and epityr make my life easier in getting it)
4 Brainstorm
3 daze ( not 4 because magus needs a bit of land count, and vial isn't always there..and the mana is very tight, as in every fish-style deck)
4 FoW
2 Fire/Ice
2 ETruth

TOT. 60

Sideboard (15)- the same ol' stuff
1 relic of progenitus
3 Propaganda (goblins are bastard)
3 Divert ( my tech against the archetypes this deck suffers more: the rock, black discard, and.. burn, sligh, boros.. but also useful against combo )
2 Hurkyl's recall (against Stompies and Staxx- and affinity, with Etruths it pwns hard)
3 pyroblast - because blue sucks, yeah
3 Pithing Needle (mass removals such as EE which is a real pain in the ass)


So this is the merfolk shell with worse creatures and a more easily disruptable mana base. You changed mutavaults to duals, wastelands to fetches, and standstill to brainstorm. I don't really see how this is an improvement, because you're really just changing:


4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Sage of Epityr
3 Epochrasite (3 because he is not that good without vial)
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Fire/Ice

instead of

4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
2 Wake Thrasher
2 Whirlpool Rider

I've always thought epoch is horrible. The chump block capability is not enough to scare anyone since he suspends for so long anyway, and when you're playing a format that swords to plowshares (and soon to be Path to Exile) are the largest used removals, it doesn't look good. Not to mention it's a 2 card combo for a turn 3 4/4, you're really not looking so hot. He's also your only 2cc creature to vial in, so you're going to bump it up to hope for one of 3 creatures. Now throw that in with 10 other 1/1s and 3 2/2s and you better be hoping that you aren't counting on creatures to win the game for you.

The only problem is the other cards aren't going to win you the game either, especially since you only run 2 burn spells.

I would run this differently. If you want to go red/blue, you can always look to the overlooked Wee Dragonaughts for a beefy creature, then throw in more burn spells and ponders. But running cards like epoch or sage of epit will not win you games.

Piceli89
01-01-2009, 07:34 PM
Phoenix Ignition:
this is a deck which i want to take in another direction than the one i took with merfolks. All you said it's true, merfolks are surely more solid than this deck, but i wanted to build something within the range of UR that could possibly do well.
This decks want to offer a complete mana denial, and i know that merfolk creatures are >> in power, but what i wanted to do here is to exploit the overpower of magus of the moon in wrecking manabases, pairing him with the alwaysgreen stifle&wasteland. Even in merfolks i know that there is the LD shell, but here my aim is to possibly lock him. Not to mention that Grim lavamancer is really good in killing mages, confidants, ecc ecc, a thing that merfolk can't do. Playing intensively that deck, I missed a bit the "removal " part , you know:laugh:
For the Epochrasite concern, yes, StP wrecks him , but a) not every deck in legacy is running stp- or will run PtE, b) it doesn't rely only on epochrasite to win the games, even if he's the only large creature of the deck.
And it seems to me as a controsense the fact that you say that StP is very common and you suggest Wee dragonauts, which is quite horrible since you've got to play Lava darts and tons of cc1 spells to make him quite large to smash the opponent, risking to set the curve at too much cc1 spells and most of all, if he gets Stp/ Exiled, it'll be a huge loss of cards. At this point i'd prefer sticking with these "mediocre " creatures, each of which do something on their own.

But i repeat, this is just an experiment of mine, I didn't want to put in discussion the fact that merfolks is surely a superior deck than this; just wanted to try something with a different approach, and maybe got some advices. If the deck won't work, well, nobody dies, but that's just for variety's sake.

Phoenix Ignition
01-01-2009, 09:54 PM
Okay, I won't mention merfolks then. I've just been testing out this deck on MWS and have had very good results:


// Lands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [10E] Island (3)
3 [BD] Mountain (2)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [ARE] Wee Dragonauts

// Spells
3 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [LG] Chain Lightning
3 [NE] Daze
3 [VI] Fireblast
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
3 [FD] Magma Jet
3 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

I started out with your list with some added burn and I guess I changed it so much that it isn't anything similar. Sorry.

Also I realize that StP is going to wreck almost every creature in the format, but when one of epoch's only attributes is that he is supposed to be able to come back from the dead, it turns out that that attribute is actually almost non-existant. Keep in mind if he does die, by the time he comes back the game will be over or the goyf will be bigger.

Captain Hammer
01-02-2009, 02:28 PM
Pheonix, I really love your list.

I think that it is the best direction to go with this deck by far for any fish variant if you want to stick with U/r.

Willoe
01-02-2009, 03:11 PM
Wee Dragonauts can really do some damage, only clause is the lack of shroud. Other than that, it's a really nice creature that can kill the opponent in few turns if it sticks: Imagine 4 bolt effects on turn 4. That's 21 damage. Good game!

My thoughts on the decklist is lack of precision. You play so many awesome cards, but why don't play more of the most awesome? I'd go

-3 Ancestral Vision
-1 Magma Jet

+1 Chain Lightning
+1 Daze
+1 Fireblast
+1 Ponder

Ancestral Vision takes a while to give you card advantage. And you simply want cantrip chains to pump up Wee by going BStorm, Ponder, Ponder, Bolt or something like that. Also, Magma Jet seems a little sucky when it comes to damage/cost ratio. But Scry is powerful, so 2 is a pretty good number. I don't think that you'll ever need more than one each game.

I just still see a problem with killing some Goyfs. They grow rather large, after all. Wee can possibly race them, but on the other hand, why take the chance? I think you'll need some bounce, also to get rid of eventual Dreadnoughts. Remember how little Dreadstill is weakened by moon effects (well, the monoblue build is). It's also mandatory that it's out of Counterbalance range, so possible cards could be

Wipe Away
Rushing River
Snapback (well, not really, but it's a good weapon against a dew-fresh Dreadnought)

I hope I wasn't talking complete nonsense. I'd like to see Wee in a top8 someday, I'm just wondering how to do it.

Benie Bederios
01-03-2009, 10:27 AM
For the Wee Dragonauts list, you might want to look into Psychotic Fury. It's some severe tech.

BB

Captain Hammer
01-03-2009, 11:13 AM
No kidding.

Psychotic Fury is INSANE. Practically an instant win if played on Wee Dragonauts.

Almost makes you want to play some other multicolored creature to abuse it more consistently, maybe Ashenmoor Gouger or something.

As for cutting Ancestral Visions, I'm not sure that's a great idea.

You play it turn one, then on turn four, the turn after you played the Wee Dragonauts, you draw an absurd number of instantly and can possibly swing in for lethal damage that same turn.

I actually think your best bet would be squeezing in ALL efficent pieces of burn. With Dragonauts, each Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lava Spike deals five damage for just one mana. The blue offers you additional card draw (Visions is great for refueling your hand). And the best part is, even without Dragonauts, you can still win the game just purely on burn.

So yes, do play Lava Spike. You have enough burn that can hit creatures, so it's fine to have one that only hits players.

Manamorphose is another card I would strongly advise playing. It fuels Dragonauts and lets you play a 56 card deck all the same.

Rift Bolt is good too.

P.S: I think the more appropriate name for this deck would be...

NQB (Not Quite Burn) UR

Hummingbird TG
01-03-2009, 12:02 PM
For the Wee Dragonauts list, you might want to look into Psychotic Fury. It's some severe tech.

BB

It only works on Wee Dragonauts, sort of a bad two card combo that gets stopped by Swords or any other removal on Wee Dragonauts. At least Stifle in Dreadstill and Top in CB Top decks have some other application on their own...

@Captain Hammer:

What cards (and how many good cards) are you willing/do you want to cut for crap like Lava Spike and Rift Bolt, and Manamorphose?

Captain Hammer
01-03-2009, 10:37 PM
For good cards like Lava Spike, Manamorphose and Rift Bolt (approach this as a burn deck because that's what this is (just with a creature that can singledhandedly win you the game from your burn, and you see that these are among the best burn spells in the format)....

I would cut slow cards like Magma Jet and Ponder.

Hummingbird TG
01-04-2009, 03:13 AM
Cantrip chains lead to victory as much as burn spells. Perhaps slower - but then, they find protection for your win, too, rather than going all in, falling short, and failing to topdeck anything worthwhile.

This deck is not a burn deck; a burn deck has far less disruption and relies far less on flimsy two card combos. It is more aggro on the aggro-control scale, but aggro-control nevertheless. Besides, who plays manamorphose in burn?

Moczoc
01-04-2009, 08:58 AM
Some people won't like it .. but Goyf is very good in a deck around Dragonauts. The thread title is no longer representative for this deck, but the basis of a Dragonaut deck should be:

4 Goyf
4 W. Dragonaut

8 Lightning Bolt
8 Cantrips

4 FoW
3 Daze

so about 10 slots are left

so finally it will be something like this:


Creatures
4 Wee Dragonauts
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Quirion Dryad

Spells
4 Manamorphose
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Repeal or 2 Fire/Ice
2 Double Cleave or 2 Fireblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

19 Lands

Captain Hammer
01-04-2009, 10:00 AM
All the best burn lists do play Manamorphose. Manamorphose lets you run 56 card lists. That's important to burn as a way of maximizing the number of Lightning Bolt effects it runs. In summary, it lets you play 56 cards, fixes colors, and pumps Dragnouts, playing it here is a no brainer.

I think you could be right about Goyf.

Though my list (whether or not I played Goyf) would look like this...

4 Wee Dragonauts
4 Ankh of Mishra/Goyf/Something Else

4 Manamorphose
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Daze

20 Lands

It's basically a burn deck, but with Daze to counter stuff for free and Wee Dragonauts as an alternative win conditon. Cantrips seemed unneccesary when so much of the deck was very redundant, and without cantrips, the deck couldn't support Force, which was card disadvantage in a deck with no way to recoup card disadvantage anyways.

Goyf is almost certainly suboptimal here. But Ankh just seems to get better and better the more prevalent aggro control gets. Five damage per fetchland, that's pretty brutal.

Hummingbird TG
01-04-2009, 11:05 AM
I did a quick search on Deckcheck.net. The only Burn decks in legacy which maindecked Manamorphose (most decks which did so were Belcher, or combo of some sort), was one deck on the 31st of May, http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16697. Should you count Goyf Sligh as burn, there is also this deck: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16581

So in total, there have been 2 top8-ing burn (or decks running burn as a main strategy or part thereof) decks on deckcheck.net, none of which are after 31st of May. I think thats a reasonable definition for "best burn lists".

Captain Hammer
01-04-2009, 11:13 AM
All that work just to prove that deckcheck.net isn't exactly cutting edge.

I could've told you that.

Any burn player worth his salt would tell you that maximizing your ability to draw into 3 damage for 1 mana effects is key to winning by turn four at the latest.

Manamorphose and Street Wraith both help to do that which is why burn lists run them. Street Wraith is a lot more debatable because the lifeloss is sometimes relevent, but even it still sees some play for that reason.

Baubles were the old way to do that, but Baubles had the unfortunate effect of having you wait a turn, and thus sucking. Manamorphose doesn't.

Considering it's added synergy with Wee Dragonauts and Lavamancer, once again, it's a no brainer in Pheonix's list.

I do think that competitively, you are better off playing pure burn, for a number of reasons. But Dragonauts is an interesting card to try and use.

Hummingbird TG
01-04-2009, 11:39 AM
All that work just to prove that deckcheck.net isn't exactly cutting edge.

I could've told you that.

And I could tell you that Nourishing Lich is the best deck in the format. That doesn't make Nourishing Lich any better or worse, whatever I as an individual say about it.

On Manamorphose, while I have shown reference to decklists to back up my points, you have yet to. Why not you step aside from the rhetoric for a second to back up what you say, if it has any worth at all (for if it had worth it would certainly be worth the time backing it up, else why would it be worth the time of the reader?). Show us some successful lists to prove why you think the "best burn lists" run Manamorphose, instead of telling us your own subjective assertions.

Captain Hammer
01-04-2009, 11:55 AM
This is a discussion already had over at the burn thread, roughly a dozen times already.

The best burn deck builders/players don't play it at tournaments. They play burn for fun, but if they want to play a single minded strategy at a tourney, they play some storm based combo. Or have you not noticed that the majority of the burn lists on deckcheck play crap cards like...

Tarfire,
Shock,
Flame Javelin,
Scent of Cinder,
Browbeat,
Genju of the Spires and
Starstorm

that should never see the light of day in a legacy tournament.

Seriously, go ask that same question over to the burn thread and most of the people there would be happy to explain to you why many burn players play Manamorphose and in some cases even Street Wraith in burn as they have already dozens of times.

Hummingbird TG
01-04-2009, 12:05 PM
And I could tell you that Nourishing Lich is the best deck in the format. That doesn't make Nourishing Lich any better or worse, whatever I as an individual say about it.

On Manamorphose, while I have shown reference to decklists to back up my points, you have yet to. Why not you step aside from the rhetoric for a second to back up what you say, if it has any worth at all (for if it had worth it would certainly be worth the time backing it up, else why would it be worth the time of the reader?). Show us some successful lists to prove why you think the "best burn lists" run Manamorphose, instead of telling us your own subjective assertions.

This. If explaining why Manamorphose is worth playing isn't important enough for you to take a minute to summarize, it's probably not worth me accepting so readily just by your words.

Captain Hammer
01-04-2009, 12:10 PM
ahem... :eyebrow:



Any burn player worth his salt would tell you that maximizing your ability to draw into 3 damage for 1 mana effects is key to winning by turn four at the latest.

Manamorphose and Street Wraith both help to do that which is why burn lists run them. Street Wraith is a lot more debatable because the lifeloss is sometimes relevent, but even it still sees some play for that reason.

Baubles were the old way to do that, but Baubles had the unfortunate effect of having you wait a turn, and thus sucking. Manamorphose doesn't.

Considering it's added synergy with Wee Dragonauts and Lavamancer, once again, it's a no brainer in Pheonix's list.

That's a pretty clear explanation wasn't it? Is maximizing your ability to win on turn four off the backs almost entirely of 1cc 3 damage cards, filtered to quickly with Street Wraith and Manamorphose not a clear enough reason.

Regardless, even if you don't think Manamorphose is a solid play in burn, its even better here for pumping Dragonauts for free, for cantripping, allowing you to play 56 cards, and filling up the yard for Lavamancer.

Hummingbird TG
01-04-2009, 02:08 PM
You see, unlike blue Cantrips which are generally played (such as Ponder/Brainstorm)(which actually provide you with the ability to somewhat select what you draw) Manamorphose doesn't. Which makes your mulliganing worse. Also, is the free spell part of it so necessary when you have a Dragonaut in play, such that you have to run a weaker cantrip (I argue that not being able to choose what you draw and thereby mulligan worse is worse than paying 1 mana for a blue cantrip) without Dragonauts? That is what I question.

Captain Hammer
01-04-2009, 03:36 PM
Manamorphose almost never makes your mulligan worse. The odds of that one single card determining whether you should mulligan or not being Manamorphose is a very rare occurance. If you're that uncertain about your hand, you should go ahead and mulligan, as you almost certainly would be even if you that Manamorphose was something else.

For the purpose of the below explanation, any 1cc for 3 damage card, be it Lava Spike, Rift Bolt, or Chain Lightning will be referred to as a bolt effect.

Burn needs to play 6 spells in any concievable combination of Bolt effects, Price of Progress, Flamebreak and Fireblast and even stuff like Spark Elemental to win the game by turn 3 many games. Manamorphose often gets the deck that last card sixth free of charge. It certainly improves the odds of getting that last card by cutting the deck down to 56 cards (52 with Street Wraith).

Brainstorm and Ponder maybe be better cantrips in a deck that can afford the mana. But in a deck that wants to win ASAP, ie. by turn 3 or 4 and needs the full 6 mana to do it, Brainstorm/Ponder are HORRIBLE. One mana doesn't seem like a lot, but when you're talking about a turn 3-4 gold fish, that one mana is a full 1/6th of all the mana that you'll be spending that whole game. Every mana spent on a cantrip is a mana that could've been better spent to bolt your opponent for three damage to win the game by turn 3.

This is the reason why even if Ponder was a red card, burn wouldn't be playing it.

Just to clarify, I don't think Wee Dragnouts is very good or should be played in burn. It's waaay to easy to kill to build around. You spend all this effort to pump and when fully pumped, your opponent can just StP it or Snuff Out or bounce it or something. I just think it's a fun card worth messing around with. And in such a deck, the free pump and manafixing that Manamorphose adds among it's already very strong abilities makes it a must play.

Phoenix Ignition
01-04-2009, 04:28 PM
Wow talk about a thread on manamorphose. Okay so to clarify, I haven't read this thread since I posted the wee list. The problem with some people's suggestions is that you have to be careful how many 1 mana spells you run, because obviously you are going to lose to chalice if you rely on them. That is why I like the Ancestral Visions and Magma Jets better than other spells.

I like to keep burn high, so adding in more dazes isn't worth it IMO.

Psychotic Fury is a really cool card for the Weedragonaughts, but I would hesitate to add it without having another multi-colored creature. It just relys too much on the Wees, and most people will kill them on sight if they can. I will probably playtest it though since the cantripping is awesome.

Repeal seems like a good card to defend against other creature decks, but with so many burn and a decent amount of counters, the deck doesn't need them in the main deck. Usually if you are racing against a big creature, Wee will win you the game by far, or you can just burn to their faces for the win, as I'm sure you goyf slighers know.


As for manamorphose, I don't think it fits in here. The fact that we're splitting mana between blue and red makes it not good enough. I don't know what to take out either, but I always fetch for a basic island right away, making it that much harder to play manamorphose. Also, I always save the instants/sorceries for when Wee is out, but manamorphose really wants you to play Wee after you play it.

The deck is good, I've won a large percentage on MWS with it, but that isn't saying much.

Benie Bederios
01-05-2009, 07:50 AM
About Psychotic Fury. I liked in my Ubr NQGAT. It played next to Wee Dragonauts, Psychatog and used Fury as a Wish target. It is best used as a Berserk, wait after blockers are declared and Wee can go lethal.

A rulequestion though. If Painter Servant makes all cards blue, would Tarmogoyf be multicolored?? It never happend, but it would be nice if it does.

I agree with Phoenix Ignition about Manamorphose. It just doesn't do enough. Only if you can use tricks with for example Mystical Tutor it would be nice, but that would be a completly other deck.

I will test both your list and the list like Moczoc's. I would only change the Quirion Dryads for Nimble Mongoose and probably remove the Manamorphose, but testing it can't do to much harm.

BB

Phoenix Ignition
01-05-2009, 02:04 PM
A rulequestion though. If Painter Servant makes all cards blue, would Tarmogoyf be multicolored?? It never happend, but it would be nice if it does.

I'm pretty sure it does. Which would make Psychic Fury an interesting card for any deck packing both.

I'm curious what your list was for the psychatog + wee deck with wishes. It sounds like fun, could you post it?

No_Life_No_Future
01-16-2009, 06:37 AM
lava dart works will with wee dragons.... also I would like to suggest Gelectrode.

ScatmanX
01-19-2009, 10:19 AM
If you guys were to splash green for Goyf, woulden't a nice adittion also be Radha, Heir to Keld? She'd be awesome with all that burn.