Green Stax

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So, this is more of a suggestion than a polished deck, but I'd appreciate advice on the idea.

The basic line of thought is that Garruk Wildspeaker could work well in a deck with the Stax shell (Trinisphere, Crucible of Worlds, Chalice of the Void, Smokestack, etc.). Additionally, it seems like Garruk could create some really one-sided situations in conjunction with Winter Orb, but I'm not sure if the Orb is good in this format. With Winter Orb down though, Garruk would let you untap three lands per turn as opposed to your opponent's one land. Also, Garruk gives you an additional win condition with his elephant tokens, although it's sort of slow.

Does anyone play a Green Stax build these days? Is green just really not the right color or something?

[Joon]

You could just run the green stompy. Doesn't abuse Garruk like Smokestacks would do, but he is indeed pretty good in that deck as he is pretty good against backbreaking cards like Deed.

[kicks_422]

The problem with splashing green in a control Stax shell is that the color doesn't really offer much. After Garruk, what else can you add? If you were to go an aggro-Stax route to capitalize on all the good 2G drops, there's already a thread for it.

[Maveric78f]

Good with stax, in green, you have :
- Garruk
- Spawnwrithe
- Imperious Perfect

Which leads more towards an aggro stax. So far, lot of builds have been proposed, but none with great success.

[Infinitium]

Sylvan Library. Words of Wilding. Life From the Loam.

[Nightmare]

Exploration.

[Tacosnape]

Garruk and Winter Orb is even sillier if you add Rishadan Port in the mix. During your turn, Garruk ability to untap a Port and a land that can add :1:, go, upkeep, tap your land that you untap from Winter Orb.

[Jaynel]

This is what I've been fiddling with this morning. It seems really cool.

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Mishra's Factory
8 Forest
4 Mox Diamond

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Winter Orb
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds (Nihil is going to have a hissy fit)

4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Sylvan Library
2 Words of Wilding

Sideboard:
3 Choke
3 Quiet Disrepair
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere

Ideally, I'd like to run 4 Smokestack and Crucible, but I don't know what to cut. Maybe Words of Wilding could go, but I'd be a bit leery about dropping to so few win conditions. Sylvan Library has been great at making mid-to-late game topdecks always be bombs. Garruk is absolutely nutty, especially with Orb and Port, as Tacosnape accurately predicted. The board is really goofy (Quiet Disrepair lol wut) so I'd love to hear suggestions.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

@Jaynel, that list looks pretty cool, that's pretty much the type of thing I was thinking of. I think Horizon Canopy could be pretty tight as a draw engine...

I'm not totally sold on Tangle Wire, is this card really all that impressive in a deck that has no way to recur it? I think at any rate, you could drop one of these to add one more Crucible or Smokestack.

Personally, I think this deck could maybe use a big burly green creature to use as a more reliable finisher. I think Gigapede could be pretty tight, although I know five mana is a lot... It doesn't give them a target for spot removal, it has enough power to kill nearly any creature they'd trade against it, and you could just discard a land to get it back, then Crucible that land back into play.

As far as Sylvan Library: doesn't this card kind of suck without shuffle effects? I could get really excited about it if we ran 4 Windswept Heath and 4 Wooded Foothills, but I think there's no room for that in our mana base. And without shuffle effects it doesn't really seem to me to provide enough power. How is it working for you so far?

One more thing, you're running twenty-six lands and four Mox Diamonds, isn't that a little excessive on the mana sources?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Iwamori of the Open Fist is a good beater, except against that random Doran player.

Maybe Argothian Wurm too. Or even Mungha Wurm.

[Elfrago]

Or Tarmogoyf.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I don't really see Tarmogoyf going into this deck, because Stax is, by nature, very centered on playing permanents. So the Stax deck doesn't really play a lot of cards that reliably grow Tarmogoyf, and we play mostly the same types of spells (artifacts, a bunch of lands) instead of the wide array you find in decks with Tarmogoyf.

Argothian Wurm seems pretty pimp... believe it or not, I had actually thought about Iwamori, but I don't like the fact that he requires double green mana and he's legendary. Imperious Perfect is small and easily killed, but the ability to make assloads of 2/2 tokens is pretty ideal... I think some combination of Gigapede, Argothian Wurm, and Imperious Perfect is probably all the creatures this deck needs. Garruk already strengthens our kill conditions and he works to make the lock more one-sided for us, so I think six to eight kill conditions is the most we can fit in this deck along with all the Stax pieces. I'm not sure which is better between Words of Wilding and creatures like Arg Wurm or Gigapede... Words of Wilding is good because it provides inevitability, but it's pretty slow, and it makes us skip drawing...

About Sylvan Library: it seems to me that we get a better draw engine with Horizon Canopy. This card is the shiznit alongside Crucible, and although it doesn't give us the extra card selection of Sylvan Library, it takes up less space in the deck because it fits in the land slot... Although I'm not sure which land to take out for it, because we need about seven or eight of the two-mana lands, and obviously Wasteland is an automatic include. Also, we can't take out Forests for the Canopy, because we need to avoid taking pain from Horizon Canopy...

Any ideas on how to include Horizon Canopy in the land base?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

One more question, about the sideboard: What types of decks does Stax generally lose to? I'm having a hard time coming up with a sideboard because I don't know Legacy well enough to know which weaknesses to try to fix.

I do know that Krosan Grip kicks all sorts of ass though, you should definitely do that instead of Quiet Disrepair, Jaynel.:eyebrow:

[Benie Bederios]

I don't really see Tarmogoyf going into this deck, because Stax is, by nature, very centered on playing permanents.

What? Your deck plays Artifacts and Enchantments. Two of the hardest cards to get into the Graveyard. You even have a Plainswalker. Next to that you play Smokestack to make sure cards go the Graveyard, like creatures from your opponent. There you have a 5/6 Goyf that can be even bigger if an opponent plays an Instant( quite common in Legacy).

BB

[Skeggi]

Exploration.
Best suggestion in the entire thread.

Any ideas on how to include Horizon Canopy in the land base?

You could kick out 1 Wasteland and 1 Port for 2 Canopies, perhaps even a Forest out for a third Canopy, since it also produces :g:. You just need to draw 1 of each anyway. Then, instead of Sylvan Library you'll need something like Exploration, because you'll really need the extra landdrops. I know Exploration isn't tech with Chalice@1, but the thing is just too good to pass. I've been thinking about green splash in my Armageddon Stax just for Exploration, but there it's not worth it. In here, it's almos an auto-include. With Sylvan Library gone, Words of Wilding sucks, so you'll have to kick that out too. So get in that fourth Exploration and then you have 1 spare slot. For Crucible of Worlds I guess. Perhaps even kick out 1 Winter Orb/Garruk/Trinisphere/Forest/Ancient Tomb for that fourth Smokestack...

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Best suggestion in the entire thread.

You may be on to something here, Exploration is pretty pimp with Smokestack, but I'm a little worried that adding four copies of it would sometimes keep you from drawing business spells. Four Mox Diamonds and four Explorations just seems like a lot of acceleration spells, considering that Garruk also provides a little bit of acceleration. It's not like we're ultimately using a lot of mana up once we get our lock pieces in place... I might be wrong, but I could see either replacing some number of moxes for Exploration, or else running two Exploration and the full set of moxes.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

What? Your deck plays Artifacts and Enchantments. Two of the hardest cards to get into the Graveyard. You even have a Plainswalker. Next to that you play Smokestack to make sure cards go the Graveyard, like creatures from your opponent. There you have a 5/6 Goyf that can be even bigger if an opponent plays an Instant( quite common in Legacy).

BB

What I'm saying about Tarmogoyf, is that it's not part of our strategy to get our own cards into the graveyard. Most decks that use him to maximum effectiveness have a bunch of cards that either go to the graveyard as soon as you play them, or get sacrificed for some function. Stax likes to play a bunch of permanents and keep them in play.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Random thought: Would Living Wish be any good in this deck, or just pointless? I don't know if there would be much value to being able to keep finishers and lands in the sideboard, but it just seems sort of cool. Obviously, we wouldn't want to devote too many sideboard cards to the toolbox... What do y'all think?

[Maveric78f]

Mana : (Stompy deck mana base) 26
4 ESG
4 City
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Forest
4 Chrome Mox

Stax elements : 14
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestax
4 Tangle Wire
2 Trinisphere

Permanent makers + beaters : 12
4 Garruk
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Spawnwrithe

Tricks :
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Loxodon Warhammer (the creatures have no evasion)
4 Snakeform/Briarhorn

SB :
2 Trinisphere
rest to define

The deck takes advantage of its ability to generate a lot of creatures in various ways: with equipments/tricks and with Stax elements. According to me, these token generators are the only the reason for playing green. Appart from that, other colors do the same but better.

[Maveric78f]

What I'm saying about Tarmogoyf, is that it's not part of our strategy to get our own cards into the graveyard. Most decks that use him to maximum effectiveness have a bunch of cards that either go to the graveyard as soon as you play them, or get sacrificed for some function. Stax likes to play a bunch of permanents and keep them in play.

That's completely untrue. When you play Tarmogoyf, you don't give a thought to make it bigger, for the simple reason that you will probably face Tarmogoyfs yourself. Tarmogoyf is most of all a control element, that is used also as a kill. It's the best wall of the format, plus it's a kill.

Although, I also think that Tarmogoyf is not good in Stax, because it is not a card providing card advantage. It has nothing to do with your game strategy, and you can't afford to play in stax cards that do not help with the overall strategy. (it's a good protector for Garruk though)

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I'm not really sold on the Stompy approach. I think the main reason to play green stax is because Garruk kicks ass, and he makes it possible to add Winter Orb to the mana denial aspect of the deck.

That said, you really need to be running Crucible of Worlds and Mox Diamond instead of Chrome Mox. I don't think there's space in the Stax shell to include a bunch of equipment cards either... Snakeform and Briarhorn are both terrible. I think Imperious Perfect is potentially really good, but I'm not sold on Spawnwrithe. Unless you manage to play it on the first turn, which is really unlikely, they're probably going to have either a blocker or a removal spell. The thing is, it has to go unblocked to work, and it's just a 2/2, so it's not that hard to block.

Basically, not to knock you too hard, but I think your build doesn't really run enough Stax cards to provide a strong lock. The creatures you're using have good abilities, but they're really easy to kill. And you're not really running enough creatures to make all that equipment necessary. Also, I consider Tangle Wire to be a subpar Stax element. I've noticed that most lists don't run it, I don't see any reason that we should.

If you really want to build a green Stompy-Stax, I'd try to find a way to make Kodama of the North Tree work. Three green mana is a lot, but that thing is a house... although, an un-equippable house.

[Maveric78f]

Do you think that Garruk kicks ass more than Braids or The Abyss, more than Tezzeret or Transmute Artifact, more than Magus of the Tabernacle or Espeth, more than Burning Wish, Rolling Earthquake or Wildfire ?

Green will not outpower the other builds. You have to find a green based concept/synergies that would make the green build superior to its concurrents, or you're just losing your time.

[Skeggi]

I'd like to point out Exploration again. Multiple Explorations mean 3+ landdrops each turn, you can either set your Smokestack to a very high number, or keep it at 1, and still Waste every turn and draw an extra card from Canopy. Exploration is the true power in Green Stax imo.

[Maveric78f]

That's a 3-card combo (exploration, crucible, stax) with no draw, library manipulation or tutor. Moreover exploration is 1CC which is antisynergic with the basis of common stax builds.

If you search a way to break exploration, play eternal garden, it's exactly what it does, but it does it with tutoring (intuition, crop rotation). I've even done a Staxy build of eternal garden: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=299644&postcount=309
When you start playing around exploration, you don't want/need anymore to restrict yourself to 1 color.

[Obfuscate Freely]

It looks like this sort of deck could break the symmetry of Root Maze pretty hard. Elephant Grass could be pretty good, too.

Between those cards and Exploration, maybe Chalice isn't optimal? I suppose you could just set it at two a lot more often.

[Nightmare]

If your big problem with dropping Chalice is that it hurts the combo matchup, Root Maze is a big bump to fix that.

[emidln]

It honestly doesn't seem to be that big of a problem for combo. It doesn't affect LED which means you just wait the extra turn to combo with ad nauseam so you can float some mana. Without Chalice to worry about there's no penalty for doing so. All Tendrils decks can still also just kill you with Ill-Gotten Gains using Rituals and LEDs.

[Joe_C]

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=129722

did people forget about this card?

seems like it would allow the deck to do abusive things

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

The more I think about it, the more I really wish there was a way to splash green into Armageddon Stax for Argothian Wurm and Garruk, but I can't figure out any way for that deck to get the GG for Garuk consistently.

[Mordenkaynen]

I also think that "Green Stacks" more likely doesn't want Chalice in. Root Maze is a quite rude way to slow the game down. It restrics your options since many cards become less effective. However, it slows down fetch manabases, shoots down artifact-based acceleration of comboes, allows to keep your opponents locked if you have enough LD (he drops, you destroy). It's a dead-draw, but it's a permanent which can be sacrificed with smokestack. Maze doesn't hurt you much with Garruk on the table. Taps trini, though.

In addition, a stupid thought: Root Maze allows to use Ghost Quarter better. The best way to use it looks like:
- with wasteland: destroy their non-basics, then start to fetch their basics to graveyard (with exploration it's not very long, ~2-3 turns).
- with maze and Garruk: play Quarter, untap, destroy a land in their upkeep (starting from basics)
- with maze without Garruk: the worst varriant. The same, but they would get an untapped basic (or you would use it each second turn).
I think the deck can use 1 Quarter, and some Crop Rotation. The latter one allow to stabilize the mana-base by limiting the count of utility-lands.

Another thought is that LftL cleans top deck, so paired with Library is very strong card-filtering.

Depending on how consistent the attacking of opponent's lands can be here, Winter Orb can be huge or overkill.

[frolll]

This kinda makes me want to play Stunted Growth in that kind of shell. With Exploration and 2-mana producing lands, could be nice, coupled with heavy mana disruption it does slow their game a lot.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

I see this deck being alright, but maybe with a white splash for Armageddons. Red has wildfire, White has geddon effects. I can see Elephant Grass in this deck, to slow down the creatures from killing you

Seedborn Muse + Mishra's Helix=OMG

I can even see throwing in Horn of Greed if you will be running Exploration.

[ssilver]

Green will not outpower the other builds. You have to find a green based concept/synergies that would make the green build superior to its concurrents, or you're just losing your time.

Green now has a good green combo to actually create a reason to play Green Stax decks over white, and he would be Progenitus.

For those of you that don't know what he does, here you go:

Progenitus

Legendary Creature - Hydra Avatar, Epic Rare
Protection from everything
If Progenitus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Progenitus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.
Illus. Jamie Jones p/t= 10/10

4 Tropical Island (for staff)
7 Forest
3 City of traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Windswept heath
4 Mishra's Factory (win con + food for staff)
4 Mox diamond

4 Garruk Wildspeaker (Same as factory, good with elf tokens)

2 Progenitus (basically an empty slot if you draw him, but really the main way to win)

4 Natural Order (win con w/Proge)
4 Proteus Staff (Other win con w/Proge)
4 Gilt-leaf Ambush (blocks goyf + food for NA/staff)
4 Exploration (fast mana accel into Staff or NA)
4 Trini
4 Tangle Wire (stalls and stops WoG on Prog for enough turns to win, which is just about the only main played removal for him)

SB:
3 Krosan Grip (combo I guess)
4 Chalice (definitely combo)
4 Root Maze (secret anit-combo tech)
4 Elephant Grass (with the enourmous mana base you can support it)

It seems like it plays faster than White stax, plus the win-con punches you in the face, and the Staff can be used against opposing annoying things until you hit a man land or fodder.


I don't know whether to stick this in this thread or not, but here it is anyway.

[Mordenkaynen]

Are you sure that using of Natural Order with 8 green creatures (Garruk + elves) is a good idea? I'd say no (waiting the second piece of your "combo" negates the advatage of winning fast). That said, Progenitus is not a "Great Unbalancer" for using exactly green stax (although I don't mean that the inclusion of
"combo"-finish is bad for stax).

[Maveric78f]

I personnally think that the blue splash is unwanted. I also think that exploration is awful, and that Chrome mox is probably better in green Stax. It provides 14 slots (7 lands, 4*proteus staff, 4*exploration), for 4*chalice of course, 4*Imperious Perfect, 4*ESG and 2*Smokestax. As I think that smokestax should be as 4-of in such a deck, I would also try to find 2 slots among the following cards : Tangle Wire, Natural Order and Trini.

In SB, I'm not sure krosan grip is needed. Against what ?

Against aggro, I prefer anticreatures. About green anticreature (and they cantrip!), there are:
- Lace with Moonglove
- Snakeform
Snakeform is really good in SB, or even MD. But Gilt-leaf Ambush looks more fitting the deck's theme for the MD slot.

For anti-combo stuff, having more enchantment/artifact hate won't change nothing. Your opponent will play serenity and win on his next turn. Maybe wastelands in SB would help both to mana disrupt the opponent and to land a trinisphere earlier, in order to get a long term lock.

Some antigraveyard cards should be necessary too, or not. Difficult to say actually.

[ssilver]

What I meant by "The Great Unbalancer" is that without an unbalancing difference between it and Whit Stax, Green Stax just sucks plain and simple. It had no reason to play it before, but Proge allows it to run a quicker finisher than any other stax deck, and that alone is worth playing the deck in some metagames.

Edit: *sigh* word games always get me into trouble... anyway, I took the advice of several people who replied, and went:

-1 Forest
-1 Staff
-4 Exploration (really useless after turn 1)
-1 Tangle Wire (really only need to see one)
+3 Call of the Herd
+4 MD Chalice

Still am using Staff because it adds to the number of win conditions, but could be replacing it. Natural order is as amazing as ever. Hoping to get more input on the deck idea.

[matamagos]

I'm interested in this kind of deck. Has anyone had any success in testing???
I know it's an old thread but I really want to hear for some news.

In my local store some guy did well with a red version. He played 3 stone rains and shivan wumpus,. We have the green versions in ice storm and argothian wurm. Red has wizard of the moon, we have garruk!

[DrJones]

I actually built this deck in Vintage years ago when landcraft was still legal in legacy. It was a weird deck that was at the same time combo (landcraft + squirrel's nest; Natural Order + Verdant Force); lock (smokestack + squirrel's nest or rancor or verdant tokens, mishra's helix + landcraft) and aggro mana ramp (landcraft, tinder wall, elves into blastoderms/verdant force/etc.), with survival of the fittest added for extra laughs and sacrificable rootwallas. It had fun moments like using Avoid Fate to counter opponent's rancors on your dudes and disenchants. Also, it performed surprisingly well on my meta until a combo deck arrived and put that mess of a deck in its place.

[Float4WeldSlaver]

Wouldn't Dramatic Entrance be better than Natural Order, since you run so few green creatures? Staff also contorts your deck a lot, taking up space that could be spent with more disruptive cards.

I know Dramatic Entrance isn't great, since you need the hydra in your hand. But it seems better, to me.

[idraleo]

Something like this?

// Lands
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
8 [10E] Forest (1)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
3 [DS] Arcbound Reclaimer
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [US] Smokestack
3 [5E] Sylvan Library
1 [MR] Mindslaver
3 [DS] Trinisphere
1 [ON] Words of Wilding
4 [US] Exploration
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [NE] Tangle Wire
3 [5E] Winter Orb

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
SB: 3 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 [8E] Choke
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle


Arcbound Reclaimer seems good to create a loop of Tangle Wire and let the deck work throught some counterspell effect. I added Mindslaver to have a backup plan instead of creatures, but i thought that if i wanna kepp reclaimer i'll probably drop Words to play Horochi Hatchery or Phyrexian Processor...

[zulander]

Call of the HERD. Seems pretty good in this deck to me.

[raestlyn]

...And no-one have suggested Uba Mask in the whole thread? Its THE reason to play stax with Sylvan Libraries..

[Lord Darkview]

I've run Greenstacks for a while on MWS. Its a more unconventional build, but let's just say Exploration and Crucible of Worlds combine for something that's utterly ludicrous, don't forget your Eternal Witnesses, and now-not-so-secret tech: Mwonvuli Acid Moss.

[eq.firemind]

Hey, guys,if you fear to play Chalice+Exploration, there is Exploration that costs :2::g:. The name is Azusa, Lost but Seeking.

I fear to say that, but with all that "untap something" cards, I want to run Gu for Intuition and..... STASIS!!! Yeah, idiotic magic-noob's dream is deck around Stasis. I'll call it StaXis:the next level of Annoyance.

[Vacrix]

here's a slightly different approach:

G/r Stax

Land
4 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 City of Traitors
2 Horizon Canopy

Spells
4 Smokestack
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Winter Orb
3 Tanglewire
3 Sylvan Library
3 Root Maze
2 Eternal Witness

Win con
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Natural Emergence
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Words of Wilding

SB:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
3 (Open Slots)


tinder wall looks like it could be helpful with the splash but what to cut? also, fetches are dont work well with rootmaze at all. blood moon effects could fit into the splash because it just turns your taiga's into mountains so you can still play natural emergence/goyf/wilding for your win, but then garrunk is nearly impossible to cast. i think witness's GG might be function better as goyf's? too much GG will be difficult.



yea i know, nobody has heard of this:

Natural Emergence
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=26410

seriously, perfect finisher. you have first strike creatures that can double block your opponents shit so its good for defense, and you can bounce 11 different permanents in this build (sylvan library, exploration, rootmaze, words of the wilding. and its not like you need anything you are bouncing anymore once you have set up the board for the win.) and it also allows you to chump block huge creatures (goyf) recurrently with crucible. also allows for some very sick interactions with garruk: untap 2 lands, double block an attacking creature, or overrun for the win. it also allows you to chump block huge creatures (goyf) recurrently with crucible. its not like you need anything you are bouncing anymore once you have set up the board for the win. the red splash also gives you vexing shusher in the board to fight through countermagic.



Interactions:
Exploration + Crucible + Smokestack
Garruk + Winter Orb
Garruk + Tanglewire
Garruk + Trinisphere
Garruk + Natural Emergence
Rootmaze + Winterorb
Rootmaze + Trinisphere
Rootmaze + Garruk
Rootmaze + Tanglewire
Sylvan Library + Words of the Wilding(?) (not sure if this works)
Eternal Witness + Smokestack
Eternal Witness + Wasteland
Eternal Witness + Tanglewire




other ideas

green:

constant mists (+ crucible is an amazing aggro lock might be better if running LftL too)
crop rotation (excellent with crucible, fetches canopy/wasteland/taiga)
rites of flourishing (its a draw engine and an exploration, but for your opponent too)
terravore (could be a nice finisher)

red splash:

bust//boom (red geddon)
devestating dreams (unlikely, but its a board sweeper and ld)
magma vein (board sweeper?)
price of glory (might make for a nice anti-control set up)
territorial dispute (fucking brilliant lock with crucible but RR is hard)
hull breach (might fit into the sb nicely)
sarkhan vol (technically a 3 turn finisher)




also Life from the Loam + Sylvan Library, as mentioned by Mordenkaynen, seems like it could be really strong. but is it worth running considering its redudancy with crucible. then again, it would make exploration more useful and open up possibilities for constant mists (more crucible effects means that you will actually draw one to use constant mists + recurrent land).

[Dark_Cynic87]

Yes, Sylvan Library + any Words enchantment works. This was used way back in Sun Tower when Emidln was "the stax guy". It's good, too. I've actually gained permanents with a Smokestack active with 5 soot counters.

I don't like the Natural Emergence. This should stay straight green I think. Makes it much less waste-lockable, and won't make your gold cards dead when they waste your Taigas. I know Mox Diamond whatever, it's relevant. The Natural Emergence isn't good enough to risk the land-screw via wastes and Blood Moons, etc.

Pce,

--DC

EDIT::: I've always said blue is my favorite color to play in stax, and green is close behind it. Intuition + LftL + Academy Ruins and any artifact = Sick synergy and Redundancy Sweetness.

What does green have to hinder quick zoo lists? White has Prison, Blue has Propaganda, what does green have?

[Vacrix]

eh.. yea its a little shaky against a possible waste lock. i think garruk/rootmaze already gives you an advantage in the stax mirror, and landstill, you have shusher in the board, rootmaze to fuck with their fetch mana base, winterorb to further fuck with them (and what else runs the waste lock anyhow?). i think that waste lock vulnerability is not as big a problem as you'd think. however, you could by pass the problem all together if crop rotation could be fit into this and then just run 1 taiga and rely on that or mox diamond to cast it. then wastelock would be irrelevant (one taiga doesnt fuck with your land base significantly). as for blood moon, it would cut your green sources from 10 to 4 which means you can still cast your shit but its harder. bring shit in from the board to deal with blood moon effects (ie krosan grip, maybe a kill spell for magus).

and yea the issue would not be that your gold cards are dead (losing 2 cards isnt a big deal) but that you are losing your green sources.


EDIT:

against quick zoo lists, green has
constant mists (good with crucible)
elephant grass (might be nice in the board)
ensnaring bridge (if you keep your card count low)

[Dark_Cynic87]

eh.. yea its a little shaky against a possible waste lock. i think garruk/rootmaze already gives you an advantage in the stax mirror, and landstill, you have shusher in the board, rootmaze to fuck with their fetch mana base, winterorb to further fuck with them (and what else runs the waste lock anyhow?). i think that waste lock vulnerability is not as big a problem as you'd think. however, you could by pass the problem all together if crop rotation could be fit into this and then just run 1 taiga and rely on that or mox diamond to cast it. then wastelock would be irrelevant (one taiga doesnt fuck with your land base significantly). as for blood moon, it would cut your green sources from 10 to 4 which means you can still cast your shit but its harder. bring shit in from the board to deal with blood moon effects (ie krosan grip, maybe a kill spell for magus).

and yea the issue would not be that your gold cards are dead (losing 2 cards isnt a big deal) but that you are losing your green sources. I also have to say that I think it's a bad decision not running 8 lands that produce 2 generic mana (7 is the minimum in my opinion, and I've played stax a bit to say the least). Also, not running fetches (3x is best IMO) is bad. Fetches let you shuffle, and with Sylvan Library that's as good as tutoring. Port isn't good imo. Too mana intensive with what you want to do. I don't like it. It's a personal thing I guess. I would use those slots for more constructive purposes; fetches and 2 mana lands. If you decide to stay red, I hear Barbarian Ring is good as removal/win-con. You might try it. Always did good for me.

Pce,

--DC


EDIT:

against quick zoo lists, green has
constant mists (good with crucible)
elephant grass (might be nice in the board)
ensnaring bridge (if you keep your card count low)

Well, Loam runs wastelock. Then there's Blood Moon, ironically still leaving you red so that's not a problem, but I must say that all of these 1cmc cards you are throwing out is a rediculous idea in a stax list, where 90% of the time a Chalice @ 1 is your best play. Losing gold cards isn't a problem. I will say that losing a win condition can be, which you would be.

[Vacrix]

yea there is loam. and they have a very easy time getting out a wastelock with crucible and LftL. then again, you can't beat everything. LftL could fit into the board to try to beat that. loam also runs heavy fetches (8 fetches good for root maze) and winter orb still works well on them (nearly all non-basics).

yea the whole 1cmc deal is not normal stax tactics. its just a different approach. maybe its viable. we wont really know until its tested. then again, if you drop those 7 1cmc cards for 4 MD chalice, then what goes in the other 3 slots? more witness?

NE is 2 out of the 8 win conditions, and if you really get all your taiga's wasted you can always bring one back with crucible (or witness) or mox diamond so they arent completely dead, just harder to cast.

[Vacrix]

here's some gold fishing with that build:

ON THE PLAY:

opening hand 1:
port, waste, witness, library, forest, canopy, trinisphere
(exploration would have been sick)

T1: forest, pass
T2: draw maze, port, library, pass
T3: draw mox, smokestack, tomb, keep ancient tomb, play wasteland, play trini, pass)
T4: draw smokestack, port, mox, keep smokestack, play canopy, waste a nonbasic, play rootmaze (- 1 life), pass
T5: draw mox, mox, port, keep port, play port, play smokestack, pass
T6: soot counter, draw mox, mox, canopy, keep canopy, play canopy, tap down 2 lands with 2 ports (-1 life), pass
T7: soot counter (sac horizon canopy), draw mox, mox, orb, keep orb, play ancient tomb, play orb, tap 2 lands (-1 life)
T8: no soot counter (sac tomb and root maze), draw mox, mox, words of wilding, pass
T9: no soot counter (sac smokestack and port), draw mox, mox, forest, keep forest, play forest, words of wilding, pass (im holding e-witness)
T10: draw 3, make 2 tokens and draw mox, tap down 1 land (-1 life)
T11: rinse and repeat draw mox, swing 4
T12: rinse and repeat draw city of traitors, play city, swing 8
T13: draw 3, make 3 tokens, tap 1 land, swing for 12 (win in goldfish)

that was alright. pretty slow to get distruption going.

opening hand 2:
canopy, stack, words of wilding, forest, garruk, waste, stack
gets mulled into:
maze, city, wire, port, witness, wire

T1: play port
T2: draw exploration, play city, play wire
T3: tap wire, draw winter orb, play orb
T4: tap wire and orb, draw crucible, play crucible
T5: tap wire, crucible, orb, draw mox, play wire
T6: tap wire, wire, crucible, orb, city, draw exploration
T7: wire dies, tap crucible and orb, draw FOREST, play mox discarding forest, exploration, bring back forest
T8: tap crucible, wire and exploration, draw NE, play NE returning exploration
T9: tap crucible, wire, exploration, and orb, draw rootmaze, play rootmaze (w/ mox)
T10: wire dies, untap port, draw orb, play witness returning wire
T11: draw taiga, play taiga, tap city and mox, play wire, swing for 8
T12: tap orb, draw tomb, play tomb, swing for 12 (win in goldfish)

that hand was alright, some fast distruption that lasts for a while.



opening hand 3:
waste, garruk, NE, taiga, forest, stack, library
gets mulled into:
exploration, crucible, witness, NE, ancient tomb, forest

T1: forest, exploration, tomb
T2: draw exploration, play crucible
T3: draw goyf, play exploration
T4: draw trini, play trini
T5: draw maze, play goyf
T6: draw garruk, play maze
T7: draw waste, play waste, sac waste
T8: draw taiga, play taiga, play natural emergence returning maze
T9: draw winter orb, swing 8
T10: draw canopy, play canopy, swing 10
T11: draw port, play port swing 12

that hand was bad. very bad.



ON THE DRAW:

opening hand 1:
trini, wire, NE, taiga, trini, orb, tomb

T1: draw forest, play forest
T2: draw words of wilding, play ancient tomb, tap (-2 life) play trini
T3: draw wire, play taiga, play words of wilding
T4: draw tomb, play tomb, play NE returning words of wilding
T5: draw exploration, play tangle wire, swing for 4
T6: tap wire, draw eternal witness, swing for 8
T7: tap wire, NE, draw garruk, play garruk, untap 2 lands and play words
T8: tap wire, garruk, words, NE, draw city, play city, remove 4 counters from garruk, swing for swing for 20 (win)

fucking great hand.

opening hand 2:
maze, crucible, port, mox, forest, exploration, taiga

T1: draw smokestack, play forest, exploration, taiga, mox discarding port, maze
T2: draw port, play port, play crucible, play port (from grave)
T3: draw maze, play maze, play smokestack
T4: soot counter, draw wasteland, play wasteland (tapped)
T5: no soot counter, sac rootmaze, draw mox, sac, play wasteland
T6: sac rootmaze, draw horizon canopy, play mox discarding canopy, play wasteland, sac, play, sac
T7: sac wasteland (for smokestack), draw library, play library, play canopy, sac, draw smokestack

(i now have a lock of wasteland per turn and i can also sac a land each turn to support smokestack, i have library, and a canopy draw engine if i dont need to or cant waste his lands. i also have 2 ports to tap down any basics he has.)

T8: sac wasteland, draw NE, trini, orb, keep NE, play NE returning library, play wasteland, swing for 6 (i have 2 mox diamonds so i only need to tap 2 land)
T9: sac wasteland, draw trini, play wasteland, swing for 10
T10: sac wasteland, draw orb, play wasteland, swing for 10 (win)

again, amazing hand.

opening hand 3:
city, orb, tomb, stack, wasteland, wire, crucible

T1: draw port, play wasteland
T2: draw trini, play tomb, play trini (-2 life)
T3: draw NE, play port, play wire (-2 life)
T4: tap wire, draw exploration, play smokestack (-2 life)
T5: soot counter, tap wire and stack, draw witness, play crucible of worlds
T6: tap wire, stack and crucible, sac city of traitors, play city of traitors (from grave), tap something with port
T7: tap wire, stack, crucible, and tomb, sac city, draw trini, replay city, tap something with port
T8: wire dies, sac city, draw garruk, play city
T9: sac city, draw tomb, play city
T10: sac city, draw maze, play city

(ive locked my oppoent out for sure now)

T11: sac city, draw...

many turns later i find a forest.. and then win. but i locked my opponent so its irrelevant. he would have no permanents.





thoughts? i just realized that i was playing with 62 cards. so i should probably cut goyf. he was always irrelevant.
rootmaze was also irrelevant but then again, goldfish.dec doesnt have fetches so meh i dont know if it was useful.

[coraz86]

I'm not sure whether to maindeck or sideboard them, but Plow Under seems like some good in a format where people don't run a whole lot of land. I couldn't say with any certainty how it would work out in Legacy, but there used to be a Standard deck called Trinity Green that was a blast to play, and that deck used to combine Tangle Wire with Plow Under to some effect. Tooth and Nail likewise made really good use of it (although, again, in a far weaker environment).

I personally agree that Tangle Wire doesn't seem as good in a deck that can't recur it (via Welder or Ruins), but I say that having never tried it in Stax. It was good in Trinity, but Trinity ran Cradles and a million mana-producing creatures. I personally would stick Sphere of Resistance there; it helps with the mana-denial strategy, it hurts free spells if you can get it to stick, and it's dumb against combo.

[Vacrix]

plow under might work, but getting GG is hard enough as it is. and there is nothing really to cut. i think that the wasteland's and ports do the job pretty well.

sphere seems like it would be redundant with all the distruption you already have, and would fuck you up if you didnt have the appropriate mana to support it.

welder though, might be good if there is red to support him.

[Mordel]

Spawnwrithe should be considered for the above build. I lost interest in this deck pretty fast when I was playing around with it due to dutch stax's existence in general, but the card I like the most in the deck was spawnwrithe.
There were more than a few games where I went T1: Chalice, T2: Spawnwrithe and then lay down a 3sphere or smoker and that was it. Spawnwrithe gets out of control in a hurry and feeds smokers.

[idraleo]

Azusa seems a nice add-on to te build since it provides to run CotV and to did 2 lands each turn without anty-sinergies....

[coraz86]

....except that every deck runs creature removal of one variety or another, where people typically only have Grips or EE for Exploration (and, since you have a bunch of artifacts and stuff of different mana costs, EE is not a whole lot better for them than Grip in many situations). I'm not knocking Azusa as a card, but this deck doesn't seem like a home for Grey Ogres.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So, here's what I've been fucking around with... It's really not optimal yet, and I'm not sold on Prefect and Spawnwrithe by any means... I think I may try out some shenanigans with Uba Mask, Words of Wilding, and Sylvan Library next.

Green Stax (rough version)

4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Ghost Quarter
10 Forest

3 Imperious Perfect
3 Spawnwrithe
4 Garruk, Wildspeaker
2 Argothian Wurm

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
1 Life from the Loam
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Squirrel Nest
3 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Choke

...So, it's a really rough version, and there are a few issues:

1.) Finding a decent kill condition
2.) Exploration VS. Chalice of the Void
3.) Creature control to deal with aggro swarms and/or big beaters.

I'm glad people are still thinking about the deck, but I've gotta confess, I've been having a hard time coming up with a list that's any good.

Advice would be much appreciated.

EDIT: I need some help on how exactly Words of Wilding and Uba Mask interact... They seem to both be replacement effects on drawing, but I'm not sure if Mask takes precedence over Words and makes it not work... Which would really suck. If someone could untangle the finer points of Uba Mask, Sylvan Library, and Words of Wilding, as far as simultaneous interactions, I'd really appreciate it. Lol, my mind is too frazzled to make good sense of it right now, the more I think about it.

[BlindMage]

Garruk does seem like he has great interaction with a Stax shell, but a lot of the other things you folks are trying seem a little odd to me.

--To whit: Exploration. Based on my personal experience playing Stax (Angel Stax and now Armageddon Stax) this really seems like a win-more card to me, with the added bonus of un-synergy with one of the deck's best cards -- chalice. Honestly, the only thing I can see Exploration doing is being a great accellerant when played on turn 1 or 2. In other situations it seems redundant. For example:

-If you have Smokestack and Crucible of Worlds, then you are winning, and don't need Exploration.

-If you have Smokestack but not Crucible, you don't need Exploration, because you won't draw more than 1 land a turn anyway.

-If you have Crucible but not Smokestack, you can use Exploration to use Wasteland and Canopy in the same turn, which is fun, but also pointless, since without Exploration, you could just use Wasteland and use your draw step to get more cards. In Stax you generally have the luxury of waiting. Of course, if you have nothing but Crucible, Wasteland, and Horizon Canopy, then naturally, Exploration will be great.

-If you have neither Crucible nor Smokestack, Exploration does nothing -- outside of early acceleration -- to advance your game plan. It doesn't get you closer to winning, and it doesn't stave off defeat.


--Root Maze also seems like a bizarre choice. Not only is it unfriendly with Chalice, but it also causes Trinisphere not to become active until the turn after you play it, giving your opponent potentially crucial time to find and apply an answer. On top of that, I'm not really sure why you want to play it in the first place. It slows down mana production, but you need Exploration to break the symmetry of it, and early mana production is a least as important for Stax as any other deck. It does do a number on fetchlands, but with that balanced against what it does you your own Wastelands, Horizon Canopys, Factories, Ports, etc -- which is not mitigated by Exploration -- it doesn't really seem like you would come out much ahead until you had Garruk as well. By that point, you have bigger and better things to do with your mana if you had been saving Maze, or, if you played it early, it likely took long enough to get Garruk mana, that the opponent will have enough mana that they're no longer crippled by it. It just doesn't seem worth it.
(dammit, I was hoping to avoid a wall of text. oh well.)


--In general, it seems like what people are building for green stacks loses a lot of focus as compared to white builds. Since Stax's disruption/lock suite works by layering multiple taxing/denial effects which could likely be answered individually, but which together become impossible with break out of, a loss of focus is Bad. Having lots of awesome random BS you can draw into is great in decks with tons of fetches and cantrips, but Stax doesn't have those things, so if you're getting your awesome random BS, you're aren't getting the important cards that keep your opponent from doing things. (Don't get me wrong, my biggest complaint about Stax is that it doesn't support fun BS nonsense)
For starters, it sounds like the green lists have way too many win conditions. In Armageddon Stax, I play 7 win conditions: 4 Magus of the Tabernacle, and 3 Mishra's Factory. Losing because I didn't have enough win conditions is not a problem I've had. Seriously, when you win with stax, dealing the 20 damage is a formality. You really win with Trinisphere (or whatever). My advice is to simply cut the win condition down to Garruk and 2-4 others, preferably ones which do something else to advance your game plan. It seems to me that Imperious Perfect and other cute interactions with Smokestack are a waste of deck space, and a distraction from the real game plan while playing.


--Try to cut as many things with GG in the cost a possible. Garruk is worth it, I'm sure, but given that you don't have more colored sources than than the versions I'm used to, I doubt you can really support as much green mana as I'm seeing.


--I've never liked Tanglewire. I've run it at times anyway, and since you probably need something to offer protection from rushes, Tanglewire may compensate for the lack of a Ghostly Prison/Propaganda effect in green. I can't help feeling that there is something better, though. I don't think Elephant Grass is a good way to go, though. I'm a fan of Engineered Explosives, which works surprisingly well in white versions with a single Savannah -- for Flagstones to go get -- and a single Canopy to back up Mox Diamond, and I see no real reason why it couldn't work well in a green version too, with 2-3 Canopys. EE won't do the job by itself, though.


I hope my viewpoint is helpful. Sometime in the next couple days I'll try and draft a decklist to illustrate the direction I think this deck ought to go in.

[Goblin Snowman]

I agree with what a lot of what BlindMage wrote. The one thing I would like to at least test with is Exploration, though, as to me it does seem like a very powerful effect. I haven't played the deck, but this really caught my eye, and I really want to make it work now. Here's a list with explanations

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Horizon Canopy
3x Forest
3x Bayou
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
4x Mox Diamond

The mana-base is fairly standard for an Exploration list. Normally I'm not a huge fan of Horizon Canopy, but I'm going to start with them and see if I run into issues. Also, the fetches are really iffy, but with Sylvan Library, the additonal shuffle effects might be worth it. Mishra's Factory is a concession to the fact that this deck looks like it's going to have far more trouble with Tarmogoyf than the White or Blue lists as it lacks a Propaganda effect.

My most radical change would be to cut City of Traitors IF, and only if, Exploration turns out to be a powerful enough choice. Gaining additional fetches and utility lands like Port, Factory, or (Unlikely) Ghost Quarter might be worth it over the hazardous acceleration offered by City of Traitors.

3x Sylvan Libary
3x Garruk, Wildspeaker
4x Exploration
3x The Abyss

I'll explain my reasoning for The Abyss here, as most of the other cards are at least fairly accepted. This deck is going to be far more vulnerable to various aggro decks than its Blue or White counterparts, as it lacks Magus, Ghostly Prison, and Propaganda. It has few answers in Green itself, and I've been unsatisfied with Engineered Explosives and Powder Keg in Stax without Academy Ruins in the past. I was very close to splashing White for Swords to Plowshares, and may still do so, but I'm going to start with The Abyss for testing.

4x Smokestack
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Trinisphere
4x Sphere of Resistance
3x Ensnaring Bridge

This is another area where I'm unsure of my choices. 4 Smokestack and Crucible would be poor in many Stax builds, but I think that in here, they're going to be key to the deck working correctly. If I feel that I'm getting too many from Horizon Canopy and Sylvan Library draws, I may cut back. I dropped Chalice of the Void (:cry:) from the deck after thinking about it long and hard. I asked myself, what decks is it good against, and what specific cards is it good against in those matchups, and came up slightly lacking. Sphere of Resistance synergizes well with the deck and is better against Combo (barring testing both). Ensnaring Bridge is a card that Sun Tower played very successfully, and one that I think is a powerful effect just looking for a home. I'll run with this maindeck against Countertop, Merfolk, and maybe Aggro Loam/Eva Green and get back to you all.

[BlindMage]

@Goblin Snowman: Interesting list, I definitely never would have thought about The Abyss. If you really can get away with cutting Chalice from the maindeck, that makes Exploration a little better. I'm skeptical about that, since against a deck like Thresh or NLU, Chalice@1 totally shuts down their cantrip base, and with it their ability to dig from answers/threats, whereas Sphere just slows it down. I'm also not convinced that Sphere is better against combo, if you know what to set Chalice at. It'll be interesting to see what falls out in your testing.

It occures to me that if you're using Exploration for acceleration, and have 4 Crucible, that City of Traitors might actually be better than Ancient Tomb, since not paying life to Tomb would give you more leeway to pay life for cards from Sylvan Library. Actually, it might be worth at least thinking about how to best capitalize on Library.

Something to keep in mind as well is that the greater use of 1- and 2-cc cards in your list makes it more vulnerable to Counterbalance than traditional Stax lists. This might not be anything to lose sleep over, but it seemed worth pointing out.

[Goblin Snowman]

I'm skeptical about that, since against a deck like Thresh or NLU, Chalice@1 totally shuts down their cantrip base, and with it their ability to dig from answers/threats, whereas Sphere just slows it down. I'm also not convinced that Sphere is better against combo, if you know what to set Chalice at. It'll be interesting to see what falls out in your testing.

*Shrug*. The reasoning behind dropping it went a little like this;
Next Level Blue has 4 Brainstorms, 3 Tops, 4 Swords, and MAYBE 4 NH or Mongoose or something. They don't have a cantrip engine worth shutting down anymore, and Swords is largely irrelevant. Against ANT or Fetchland Tendrils, any decent player can play through a Chalice on either 0 or 1 if there's no pressure applied. And depending on their hand/amount of land drops, it's possible they will be able to totally negate it. Sphere of Resistance can help bone them in conjunction with Wasteland pretty hardcore.



It occures to me that if you're using Exploration for acceleration, and have 4 Crucible, that City of Traitors might actually be better than Ancient Tomb, since not paying life to Tomb would give you more leeway to pay life for cards from Sylvan Library. Actually, it might be worth at least thinking about how to best capitalize on Library.


Hrm. You might be on to something. Early testing (just over Workstation while I wait for my testing partner to get back) has shown that City has been decently easy to manage. Cutting Tomb for Crystal Vein or utility might help shore up the Goyf Slight MU or something.

[Maveric78f]

Mana : 34
4 ESG
4 City
4 Ancient Tomb
5 Forest
5 Snow-covered Forest
4 Chrome Mox
2 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Birds of paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
// I'm really not sure about how to split them here. I'm afraid of plague obviously, but they are all druids except for birds. Wall of roots might be very good too.

Stax elements : 12
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestax
4 Trinisphere

Permanent makers + beaters : 8
4 Garruk
4 Imperious Perfect

The Combo : 6
4 Natural Order
1 Prog
1 Primus

SB :
3 Tormod
3 Loaming Shaman
3 Wickerbought Elder
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke

It's what I'm testing right now. It was great against all decks I played up to now except tempo thresh, which was a slaughter. Pyroclasm, counterspells, mana disruption, trygon, submerge, efficient beaters, stifle on stax. Nothing I could do in this MU. The deck has serious weaknesses I don't know how to fix, except by winning before they come up. The main one is any flying beater. Sometimes I wonder if Tangle Wire does not better fit the deck than Chalice, since we already have T1 plays with trinisphere and mana guys.

[rufus]

It's what I'm testing right now. It was great against all decks I played up to now except tempo thresh, which was a slaughter. Pyroclasm, counterspells, mana disruption, trygon, submerge, efficient beaters, stifle on stax. Nothing I could do in this MU. The deck has serious weaknesses I don't know how to fix, except by winning before they come up. The main one is any flying beater. Sometimes I wonder if Tangle Wire does not better fit the deck than Chalice, since we already have T1 plays with trinisphere and mana guys.

Arboria would be an interesting way to go.

[Maveric78f]

Fetches would give them 2 turns of attack. I'm not sure arboria is a good card to play in legacy.

[Darkenslight]

No Sylvan Library? I would have thought that that was a good fit for a Stax-type Deck.

1) It's a permanent;
2) It's draw, something that most Stax-type decks need.

The thing against it is that it costs life for those cards.

[Maveric78f]

4 life for a 0 CA, 8 life for CA+1 with no life gain, no shuffling effect (appart from NO which wins generally the game) ?

[rockSTAR]

4 Life for CA1 8 Life for CA2...

[Dark_Cynic87]

What he said. Make sure you understand how a card works before you shut the discussion down. Basically, Sylvan Library lets you "brainstorm" each draw step. Draw 3, put 2 back, you get to pick. Also, they stack, with 1 giving you 3 cards, 2 giving you 5, 3 giving you 7 and 4 giving you 9.

There's a great combo used in Sun Tower (a UGx Stax list from last year when Emidln still dabbled in stax). It is Sylvan Library and any Words Enchantment. We used Words of War first, but Words of Wilding was a house against everything. You could ramp stax up to 4 on a pretty regular basis and still GAIN permanents each turn without saccing off a land. Its pretty intense.

Pce,

--DC

[Maveric78f]

4 Life for CA1 8 Life for CA2...

So you consider that ponder is CA1?

Sylvan library doesn't let you brainstorm, it lets you top for free at each upkeep (and you may pay life to draw, but you're already too much low in life to afford it in stax).

The combos with Sylvan Library are too random to be taken into account. Moreover the cards of the combo are bad on their own.

[B is for Big Job]

you know what you just said is exactly what they said, just comparing 2 different cards that do the exact same thing. pending on board state and life totals as such, being able to draw that extra card to win the game or get 2 cards needed to help win.

i didnt read through just skimmed real quick but did anyone mention harmonize? i know its not as good as library but it dodges cb and spell snare

[rufus]

Fetches would give them 2 turns of attack. I'm not sure arboria is a good card to play in legacy.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. You're not playing any fetches. Arboria is probably inferor to something like Ensnaring Bridge in most cases, though. I was really thinking along the lines of "moat, but green".

[fearphage]

The problem I see with this deck is you are putting yourselves in harm's way with the low casting cost cards.

In stax, I want to go:
Turn 1: Trinisphere
Turn 2: Smokestack
Turn 3: Crucible (followed immediately by my opponent's scoop phase)
(FYI: With this combo, the game ends unless your oppoenent has the ability to make 3 mana some mystical way because they will never be able to reach 3 lands to cast a spell)

I'll settle for:
T1: Chalice @ 1
T2: Trinisphere
Then take it from there.

It seems bad to have so many of your spells affected by your lock pieces. I realize you aren't generally playing chalice in your builds but I have still seen Trinisphere. In most stax builds, Mox Diamond (4 cards) are only affected by the lock pieces. Here you're putting 12+ (combinations of mox, goyf, Exploration and Root Maze) in which just seems wrong.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Test it. Test 4 Library, 3 Words of Wilding. I got lethally brain freezed on turn 4 playing against Solidarity and still won the game. I had out one library and one WoWilding.

Pce,

--DC

[Darkenslight]

Also, in the M10 spoiler, there's a creature that makes more creatures for free each turn: Master of the Wild Hunt. Its second ability will be usually relevant as well, killing Goyfs and other non-Shroud men. It does cost 2GG, however.

[Dark_Cynic87]

It's been discussed, and the general thought is that it's worse than Garruk, and personally, I'm not a fan of Garruk. I wouldn't play Master of the Wild Hunt if a gun were held to my head. I'd rather splash for removal than play that card.

Pce,

--DC

[Maveric78f]

The abundance of 1 mana producers was a weakness in 2 ways :
- pyroclasm, fire/ice, plague
- often the impossibility to play a turn 1 chalice@1

So finally, I kept the 4 elves but I replaced noble hierarches and birds with wall of roots.

Wall is less fragile than those 0/1, and overall it costs the same, since it produces G as soon as it comes into play. It's sometimes more difficult to play on turn 1, but that's not a big deal, since you can play chalice now.

[Amon Amarth]

In regards to the Chalice and Exploration debate, I would play four of each. A first turn Exploration can often facilitate a Chalice@1. Yeah it sucks when you have a Chalice@1 and draw into an Exploration but it's not game breaking. Being able to make your land drops AND start Waste locking your opponent is just too good to pass up IMO.

[Gui]

Green stax should run Words of Wilding + Sylvan Library, and make inf+1 bears ^^
That was quite a tech when I used to play Brandon's Rg Stax and Sun Tower
And also, sylvan is your best draw/lib manipulator option

[emidln]

One of the problems with playing a deck like Green Stax is that your opponents will invariably have ways to kill you, often despite your lock pieces. A single Krosan Grip in the midgame can often completely destroy a green stax player's gameplan because Green Stax, for the most part, lacks a solid mana denial plan. You either need to make it so that your opponent cannot play spells that break your locks or you need to win fast enough that hard locks aren't necessary. Sylvan Library/Words of Wilding provides a way to do that with cards that aren't fucking terrible on their own. If you want to not get attacked to death by Tarmogoyf, you'll need to play Ensnaring Bridge. If you want to win the game with a Bridge in play, you probably will have to look outside of Green if you reject Library/WoW.

Factories are a fine win condition if you can get the Stax lock active and online (which isn't the easiest thing to do when your opponent keeps shitting out dudes). They make a poor win condition if you have to win before an opponent simply finds and plays some removal for your bridges before a lethal sing. Garruk has a problem of requiring a million mana to be effective and is extremely suspect in the mid to late game (where your hand is generally empty or you could just play whatever you happen to have anyway) and his token generation is laughable. By the midgame, your opponent often has multiple dudes, dudes that probably laugh at your limited amount of 3/3s. Unless your opponent went infinite, they likely can't deal with a horde of Bear tokens.

Interestingly enough, White Stax opts to go the other way with Geddon effects to control the opponent's ability to effectively attack or play spells. They make it impossible to play expensive spells like Rushing River, Krosan Grip, and Pernicious Deed with geddons. This has a side effect of letting their Wastelands and Smokestacks hit the opponent's generally suspect manabase harder.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I'm still confused about the mechanics of the combo I guess.

Do you still lose 4 life per card you keep with Library + WoW? It's like, you draw the card for your turn... then 2 more goes on the stack, but you can replace those? Do you still get to keep the cards? I'm confused :laugh: :confused: Someone's gonna have to explain this to me I'm dumb lol

[emidln]

I'm still confused about the mechanics of the combo I guess.

Do you still lose 4 life per card you keep with Library + WoW? It's like, you draw the card for your turn... then 2 more goes on the stack, but you can replace those? Do you still get to keep the cards? I'm confused :laugh: :confused: Someone's gonna have to explain this to me I'm dumb lol


With one Words of Wilding you can:

a) draw 3 cards, put back 2, lose 0 life

To do this: don't activate words of wilding and put back 2 cards while resolving Sylvan Library.

b) draw 3 cards, put back 1, lose 4 life

To do this: don't activate words of wilding and put back 1 card while resolving sylvan library.

c) draw 3 cards, put back 0, lose 8 life

To do this: draw your card per turn. While Sylvan Library is resolving, do not put back any cards.

d) draw 2 cards, get 1 token, put back 2 cards, lose 0 life

To do this: activate Words of Wilding one time in your upkeep. Draw 2 cards and put back 2 cards while resolving Sylvan Library.

e) draw 1 card, put back 0, get 2 tokens, pay 0 life

To do this: do not activate Words of Wilding in your upkeep. Draw your card per turn as a game action. With the Sylvan Library trigger on the stack, activate Words of Wilding twice. The if clause on Sylvan Library will not trigger since you have not technically drawn cards from this ability.

f) draw 1 card, put back 0, get 2 tokens, pay 4 life

To do this: activate Words of Wilding in your upkeep. Your draw per turn will be replaced. With Sylvan Library's trigger on the stack, activate Words of Wilding one time. While resolving Sylvan Library, it will notice that you did in fact try to draw cards. You now get to pay 4 life to keep the draw you didn't replace.

g) draw 0 cards, get 3 tokens, pay 0 life

To do this: activate Words of Wilding in your upkeep at least one time. With Sylvan Library's trigger on the stack, activate Words of Wilding at least two more times.


Personally, I don't recommend paying life very often. You can always get 1 token (d) , 2 tokens (e), or 3 tokens (g) from 1 Library + 1 Words of Wilding without paying life.

[rufus]

I'm still confused about the mechanics of the combo I guess.

The way that Sylvan Library is written, you pick two cards in your hand that you drew this turn, and then then pay 4 life or put them back. So if you don't have any drawn cards in your hand, then you can't pick any, and don't loose any life. (And if you have 1, you choose to put it back, or lose 4 life.)

[Mystical_Jackass]

Ok, I gotcha! Thanks for the thorough breakdown though Emid.

So having the ability to draw up to 3 cards gives you the ability to abuse words of wilding better, regardless if drawn. So it looks like my best choices would be to

Pay 2 during upkeep, get 2x Bears and draw a card. This at least keeps my draw going and possible land drops, too.

Pay 3, get 3x Bears and no draw seems like it'd be only good once I've locked them out, I've got at least 1-2 card options in my hand, and I'm going for the kill.

I guess has a LOT to do with the matchup. Like, if I know I'm going against a slower, control deck with little evasion I'd be almost tempted to abuse up to 12 life gaining a card advantage over them. Against anything with burn would just seem like suicide :[

Ancient Tomb kinda bothers me though, even using it to dish out 2 Bears which is awesome, its just killing ya' man. It almost makes it impossible to draw with Library with the amount of life you're losing. If you tap that land just 3 times, you just lossed 6 life... then drawing "1" card from Library, you're down to 10 life. Suxor. In some matchups that life loss is expendable I know, but against a deck with burn or some evasion that could almost cost you the game methinks. With elephant grass and ghostly prison in my deck though the acceleration might be just what I need to shut them down first

[emidln]

Ok, I gotcha! Thanks for the thorough breakdown though Emid.

So having the ability to draw up to 3 cards gives you the ability to abuse words of wilding better, regardless if drawn. So it looks like my best choices would be to

Pay 2 during upkeep, get 2x Bears and draw a card. This at least keeps my draw going and possible land drops, too.

Pay 3, get 3x Bears and no draw seems like it'd be only good once I've locked them out, I've got at least 1-2 card options in my hand, and I'm going for the kill.

I guess has a LOT to do with the matchup. Like, if I know I'm going against a slower, control deck with little evasion I'd be almost tempted to abuse up to 12 life gaining a card advantage over them. Against anything with burn would just seem like suicide :[

Ancient Tomb kinda bothers me though, even using it to dish out 2 Bears which is awesome, its just killing ya' man. It almost makes it impossible to draw with Library with the amount of life you're losing. If you tap that land just 3 times, you just lossed 6 life... then drawing "1" card from Library, you're down to 10 life. Suxor. In some matchups that life loss is expendable I know, but against a deck with burn or some evasion that could almost cost you the game methinks. With elephant grass and ghostly prison in my deck though the acceleration might be just what I need to shut them down first

If you want to draw your card per turn and make two bears, the best way to do that is to activate Words of Wilding in your draw step in response to the Sylvan Library trigger. That gets you 2 bears, a card, and doesn't cost any life.

Burn tends to be a rough matchup if the burn player has a decent curve. If they play all 1s and 2s, Chalice might be able to deal with them, otherwise you're racing with Smokestack or Bear Tokens/Factories to win. Ancient Tomb damage can be relevant (and it's often not a good idea to use it if you can avoid it, and probably only once or twice with Wilding in any matchup), but there simply isn't any better acceleration for your deck if you want to make the most out of Chalice @ 1.

Paying 3 to make 6 power worth of bears is correct 90% of the time. This keeps your hand size low for Ensnaring Bridge and ensures you have blockers for anything that can make it under your bridge. When the time is right (you have a ton of bears), you can simply choose to draw cards and attack. It's worth noting that the combo is usually lethal within 3-4 turns of coming online if the opponent doesn't answer it with a sweeper.

[rufus]

If you want to draw your card per turn and make two bears, the best way to do that is to activate Words of Wilding in your draw step in response to the Sylvan Library trigger. That gets you 2 bears, a card, and doesn't cost any life.

This is incorrect - here's the Sylvan Library Text:


At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two additional cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.
It doesn't matter whether the card was drawn from Sylvan Library, Brainstorm, or the Draw for the Turn.
The 9/16/07 ruling clarifies that if there is a single card, then it must be chosen.

[emidln]

This is incorrect - here's the Sylvan Library Text:


It doesn't matter whether the card was drawn from Sylvan Library, Brainstorm, or the Draw for the Turn.
The 9/16/07 ruling clarifies that if there is a single card, then it must be chosen.

That ruling seems to be very inconsistent. The phrase cards drawn this turn should never be satisfied if no card draws result from the ability due to that part of the ability being predicated on cards being drawn from Sylvan Library. Who do I email to argue this point?

Edit: 424.6 seems to cover this, but I still see variance. For example:



424.6. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, "[X]. If [a player] [does or doesn't], [effect]." or "[a player] may [X]. If [that player] [does or doesn't], [effect]." The action [X] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The "If [a player] [does or doesn't]" clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.

Sylvan Library's triggered ability would create an optional cost, one that is never actually paid. Since it isn't a mandatory cost, it shouldn't trigger as the cost is never paid.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I'm so confused, who is right? :**[

So what does this mean? You always lose life...err...?

[rufus]

That ruling seems to be very inconsistent. The phrase cards drawn this turn should never be satisfied if no card draws result from the ability due to that part of the ability being predicated on cards being drawn from Sylvan Library. Who do I email to argue this point?

Even under normal circumstances, you can choose to put the card you drew initially on top of the deck, rather one of the ones that were drawn with Sylvan Library, so it's clear that it, at minimum, includes the normal draw card.

The triggered ability has a choice, either draw two, and then choose two to put back or keep, or don't do anything.


So what does this mean? You always lose life...err...?

You don't loose life if you put back at least 2 cards, or if you put back all of the cards that you've drawn so far this turn.

With just the Library and Words of Wilding that means you can:
1) Draw net 1 card, produce no bears, and lose no life.
2) Draw net 2 cards, produce no bears, and lose 4 life.
3) Draw net 3 cards, produce no bears, and lose 8 life.
4) Draw net 0 cards, produce 1-3 bears, and lose 0 life
5) Draw net 1 card, produce 1-2 bears, and lose 4 life.
6) Draw net 2 cards, produce 1 bear, and lose 8 life.

If you play the card that you initially drew before the Sylvan Library trigger resolves, and that card doesn't lead to a draw, and then replace the 2 draws, there are no drawn cards to choose from, and you'd loose 0 life. (This would work, for example if the initially drawn card is a summoner's pact.)

[Gui]

If you never drew two cards due to sylvan library effect, then the "if you do" ability will never trigger. Since so, you don't need to put any cards back. Then you got 2 bears and a card without life costs.

[rufus]

I'm pretty sure that replacing costs won't prevent the effect. Consider, for example, the interaction of Aven Mindcensor and Land Tax.

Land Tax, for example, uses the same "you may...if you do" construction:


At the beginning of your upkeep, if an opponent controls more lands than you, you may search your library for up to three basic land cards, reveal them, and put them into your hand. If you do, shuffle your library.


Aven Mindcensor does a forced replacement of the search effect:


If an opponent would search a library, that player searches the top four cards of that library instead.

But it's clear that the shuffle still happens:


5/1/2007 After the search is complete, if the effect has the player shuffle that library, the entire library is shuffled.

[Gui]

Ok, this seems to clear things up:



From Gatherer:
9/16/2007 - If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect.


So,

If you chose to draw your card from the draw step, and then trigger the ability from WoW twice, you get two bears, and have to chose the card drawn before. So if you don't want to lose life, your options are:
- Draw 1 (duh)
- Draw 3, return 2 (duh²)
- Draw 1, make 2 bears, return 1
- Draw 0, make 1 bear
- Draw 2, make 1 bear, return 2
- Make 3 bears

If you like, you may make 1 bear, draw 2 cards and return 1 for 4 life too...

EDIT: Sry Rufus, you were right all the time ^^

EDIT2: This is a small nerf, but the combo is still usefull while you can make 3 bears in a row...
Also, consider running Uba mask, so that you never draw cards xD

small edit: Draw 0, make 2 bears -> - Draw 1, make 2 bears, return 1

[Maveric78f]

Something else I've never understood. A lot of people think that Sylvan Library brainstorms at each turn, but it does not, it just sensei tops (considering you don't lose life and don't replace the draws). I've never understood how it works in tourney, are you supposed to call a judge each time you play Sylvan Library ?

To my knowledge, it's the single card that makes a player do invisible stuff, without the opponent being able to check if he's not cheating. I mean, morph permanents are revealed when you bounce them or when the game stops. There must be a reason for that.

[emidln]

I always played Library like a Ponder (ala keeping my hand and my cards drawn this turn separate until I've finished resolving Library).

[Maveric78f]

I always played Library like a Ponder (ala keeping my hand and my cards drawn this turn separate until I've finished resolving Library).

That's because you're a nice person. I mean you have no reason to piss off your judge, but that's kind of weird that you can legitimally force your judge to be behind you.

Ps : I hope you never shuffled (you told you played it as a ponder).

[Gui]

IMO the player should explicitly chose a drawn card, so, if it seems to you that he didn't (explictly chosen one of those), call the judges... Dunno about judges rulings though

[rufus]

Something else I've never understood. A lot of people think that Sylvan Library brainstorms at each turn, but it does not, it just sensei tops (considering you don't lose life and don't replace the draws). I've never understood how it works in tourney, are you supposed to call a judge each time you play Sylvan Library ?

It's closer to a top, but paying 4 life for a card can be quite good. And you're right, Sylvan Library is a mess. It's from Legends (pre-6th) when lots of stuff was messy.

Most of the time, it will be in play from the beginning of the turn, and the cards can be kept physically separate. Technically, there's some information that can be gleaned by tracking whether cards are played from the 'just drawn' pile, but it's probably not that bad.

If it comes into play (or under your control) at after you've drawn cards, but before the draw step, then things get even stickier: For example, let's say that during the upkeep, I brainstorm (draw 3, put 2 on top of the deck), and then a Lost Auramancers expires, and I elect to put Sylvan Library into play.

(Hmm... for some reason I now want to see cards with "Cycling Discard a card at random")

[Grollub]

I've never understood how it works in tourney, are you supposed to call a judge each time you play Sylvan Library?

No, you are supposed to not cheat. I've never experienced problems with Sylvan Library in tournaments, from both sides at the table. I usually keep my "real" hand in my left hand, and the "sylvan pseudo-hand" (tm) in my right to both give myself an easy overview of my cards, and make it explicit what's going on; usually how my opponents do too.

But yes, if your opponent mesh the two "hands" together (casual players usually do this) call a judge, to clear up matters - it's both for your sake and your opponents even if they are legit.

[Gui]

It's closer to a top, but paying 4 life for a card can be quite good. And you're right, Sylvan Library is a mess. It's from Legends (pre-6th) when lots of stuff was messy.

Most of the time, it will be in play from the beginning of the turn, and the cards can be kept physically separate. Technically, there's some information that can be gleaned by tracking whether cards are played from the 'just drawn' pile, but it's probably not that bad.

If it comes into play (or under your control) at after you've drawn cards, but before the draw step, then things get even stickier: For example, let's say that during the upkeep, I brainstorm (draw 3, put 2 on top of the deck), and then a Lost Auramancers expires, and I elect to put Sylvan Library into play.

(Hmm... for some reason I now want to see cards with "Cycling Discard a card at random")

Interesting, if you draw a card, and play that card before sylvan resolves, then you dont have to chose any cards... although, cycling cards would make you drawing cards... But we could possibly find a walkarround to that if we keep on thinking...
Anyways, easier way seems to be uba mask, and it would sound really good with goblin welder, and we are back to Sun Tower =P

[rufus]

Interesting, if you draw a card, and play that card before sylvan resolves, then you dont have to chose any cards... although, cycling cards would make you drawing cards... But we could possibly find a walkarround to that if we keep on thinking...

Landcyclers and tutors like Summoner's Pact come to mind.

[Tacosnape]

The unbanning of Metalworker has led me to start playing a green-splash Stax build built around Winter Orb. Here's my list, at current.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
8 Snow-Covered Forest

4 Mox Diamond

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Winter Orb
3 Powder Keg

4 Metalworker
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
2 City of Solitude
4 Drop of Honey
3 Loaming Shaman
1 Powder Keg

The point is to abuse Winter Orb by exploiting the untap ability of Garruk and the mana ability of Metalworker, and it's full of small synergies that make it function. Garruk and Smokestack, Garruk and Winter Orb, Metalworker and Winter Orb, Garruk and Tangle Wire, Tangle Wire and Winter Orb, Trinisphere and Winter Orb, Trinisphere and Tangle Wire, Crucible and Wasteland, Crucible and Smokestack, etc. The deck kills with Beast tokens, Metalworker, and Factory.

The board intends to shore up weaknesses. Grip is versatile and strong. Drop of Honey is my recent replacement for Arboria against fast aggro, and it's invaluable on the draw. (Garruk/Arboria is neat, though.) Loaming Shaman is yard hate and a midrange threat all in one.

Powder Keg has proven to be necessary, though in what number I'm still testing. Keg kills Vial and is the closest thing this deck has to actual threat removal.

The deck has proven to be incredible when I'm not staring down a quick horde of threats, and I'm looking for clever ways to stymie this problem, particularly in game one in the form of something maindeckable.

[Eseph]

Is it sad that I was excited for a green stax build, but not because of Metalworker, and entirely because of Rampaging Baloths... It's probably isn't worth the slot, but it seemed to fit the theme, and land early with Garruk. As for stopping early game threats, why not Elephant Grass for a turn or 2? Or the ever present Tarmogoyf...

[TheKingslayer]

Turbo Stax! Here's a list that orignally started as a deck built around vinelasher kudzu( I truly wish that it would work, but the damn thing is just a target.) It eventually turned into a Stax Deck. I don't have time to go far in depth into the card choices or matchups at the moment, but I can give a brief synopsis. At the moment, you'll have to do most of the math yourself

Spells
3 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Intuition
2 Rude Awakening
4 Swords to Plowshares


Enchantments
4 Exploration


Artifacts
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Horn of Greed
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack


Lands
1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Plains
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
1 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath


Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Constant Mists
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
The sideboard definitely is not solid. I haven't played in a year, and I just moved to college and I am unaware of the local meta.


Personally, I don't prefer chalice. I used to run it in here, but making use of many one-mana spells bumped it out. it seemed to get in the way more than anything.

Crop rotation= is such a beautiful addition, because you can pull almost any tool at instant speed. Some rather sick plays have been made out of glacial chasm and god's eye. Plus, academy ruins helps grab the central artifacts after they have been countered or destroyed.

Exploration =coupled with the good ol' horn of greed it allows for a great benefit, and it also let's you up the soot counters to the level of insane.

intuition= It puts everything where you need it. Three might be nice, but I feel there is little need, and I would rather run a fourth brainstorm, with the crop rotations and tutors.

rude awakening= one of my favorites. It was absent from the deck for a while, while the man lands did most of the work, but I found that there were too many games that I could've won, had I possessed something that handed me a little more instant gratification. Rude awakening is unexpected and hard to stop once it lands.

I would like another brainstorm and/or another intuition, but i am indecisive at this point in testing. Also, main deck Armageddon would be excellent. I need more testing and input.

[Maveric78f]

It looks like an (goddamn) awful version of Eternal Garden, with no LftL for obscure reasons.

[Maveric78f]

The unbanning of Metalworker has led me to start playing a green-splash Stax build built around Winter Orb. Here's my list, at current.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
8 Snow-Covered Forest

4 Mox Diamond

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Winter Orb
3 Powder Keg

4 Metalworker
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
2 City of Solitude
4 Drop of Honey
3 Loaming Shaman
1 Powder Keg

The point is to abuse Winter Orb by exploiting the untap ability of Garruk and the mana ability of Metalworker, and it's full of small synergies that make it function. Garruk and Smokestack, Garruk and Winter Orb, Metalworker and Winter Orb, Garruk and Tangle Wire, Tangle Wire and Winter Orb, Trinisphere and Winter Orb, Trinisphere and Tangle Wire, Crucible and Wasteland, Crucible and Smokestack, etc. The deck kills with Beast tokens, Metalworker, and Factory.

The board intends to shore up weaknesses. Grip is versatile and strong. Drop of Honey is my recent replacement for Arboria against fast aggro, and it's invaluable on the draw. (Garruk/Arboria is neat, though.) Loaming Shaman is yard hate and a midrange threat all in one.

Powder Keg has proven to be necessary, though in what number I'm still testing. Keg kills Vial and is the closest thing this deck has to actual threat removal.

The deck has proven to be incredible when I'm not staring down a quick horde of threats, and I'm looking for clever ways to stymie this problem, particularly in game one in the form of something maindeckable.
How can you splash for a card that is double coloured? How reliably could you play Garruk? Appart from that it's very surprising that you don't play rishadan port. It looks better than Mishra.

Actually, I don't think that green is the good colour for playing Metalworker. Green stax shines with non artifact cards such as Natural Order, Garruk, ESG, mana elves, Imperious Perfect. Black looks good with the Abyss. Blue with Transmuter, Master of Etherium and Tezzeret. Well, I've never tested, but it looks more synergetic...