[Deck] Doran Suicide [Archive]

Captain Hammer

01-09-2009, 11:48 PM

Bardo mentioned that I should repost this thread without the protective attitude towards it. So I'm going to do just that and simply ignore any post that even resembles a flame instead of letting it get to me.

So if you want to have a discussion about something on the list, please post constructively and I promise to do the same.

First, the list...

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4/3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3/4 Hypnotic Specter

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
4 Vindicate

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Before you ask, the established decks forum is for decks that either have tournament showings, or have been worked on and tested for a long period of time, and thus have a completely 100% finalized list.

I've been playing developing testing and tweakign this deck for a long time now, and this is a 100% complete well tested list. And I had won local tournaments with slight variations on this same list, including one just yesterday.

It's due to that latter category that a lot of the decks here are allowed to stay. The same reason that decks like the Mightly Quinn, Epic Elves and the other decks here were allowed to stay.

And also before you ask, yes I know that Doran is legendary. And yes, I personally run the full playset, though I posted it on the list as a 4/3 so you don't have to feel obligated to if you don't want to. And no, I don't mind that I have to occasionally keep a Doran in my hand when I already have one on the board. Because I wouldn't want to play the second Doran anyways. One should usually not over extend themselves and open themselves to a Disk or Deed or Wrath or Damnation effect like that.

A breif history of what prompted me to put together this deck. I've been getting sick of Eva Green having to play weak creatures like Shade and weak cards like Seal of Cleansing for a while now. Especially when monsters like Doran and land destroying bombs like Vindicate were just one color over.

When playing Eva Green, I felt like I was driving a Lambroguini stuck with a part or two from an old Chevy under the hood (parts like Shade and Seal).

I wanted all of my threats to be scary big, well out of burn and blocker range and my land destruction component to be simulatously more extensive and more versatile at the same time.

Splashing white and making room for Doran and Vindicate allowed me to do just that.

I've messing around with variations on this for what feels like an eternity now but settled on the absolute final list a week ago and have been really impressed with the overall decks performance so far. I mean crazy impressed.

Ritual has seriously never let me know one match all week, letting me lay down Tombstalkers, play first turn Hyppes, Sinkholes on the play, chain together Thoughtseizes with Reanimates, Hymns with Thoughseiges, Sinkholes with Dorans on turn three and all sorts of other broken nonsense.

Doran is a bomb, just as big or bigger than goyf most of the time, making your own goyf bigger as well, being safe from most black removal spells and essentially being a 3cc Tombstalker that isn't reliant on the graveyard in the least.

Vindicate is a bomb, blowing up the lands that made it past Wasteland and Sinkhole during round one, eating up creatures that Thoughtseize and Snuff Out missed round one, and taking crap like Chalice at 2 out back and shooting it in the forehead.

DalkonCledwin

01-10-2009, 12:11 AM

Before you ask, the established decks forum is for decks that either have tournament showings, or have been worked on and tested for a long period of time, and thus have a completely 100% finalized list.

I've been playing developing testing and tweaking this deck for a long time now, and this is a 100% complete well tested list. And I had won local tournaments with slight variations on this same list, including one just yesterday.

So does that mean you are unwilling to listen to people who may or may not suggest what would amount to their opinions on how to improve the list? Cause if you are not willing to listen to their suggestions on how to improve the list because you feel that the deck is in its finalized form, then your defensive attitude about this deck has not really changed from the last time you posted this deck whatsoever.

And also before you ask, yes I know that Doran is legendary. And yes, I personally run the full playset, though I posted it on the list as a 4/3 so you don't have to feel obligated to if you don't want to. And no, I don't mind that I have to occasionally keep a Doran in my hand when I already have one on the board. Because I wouldn't want to play the second Doran anyways. One should usually not over extend themselves and open themselves to a Disk or Deed or Wrath or Damnation effect like that.

Yet over extending does and can happen quite often in suicide decks.

A breif history of what prompted me to put together this deck. I've been getting sick of Eva Green having to play weak creatures like Shade and weak cards like Seal of Cleansing for a while now. Especially when monsters like Doran and land destroying bombs like Vindicate were just one color over.

You mean seal of primordium? And yeah, I don't think splashing a color just to improve the deck is necessarily the best call, I mean that is essentially the main problem I have with Team America... Though you get around that by playing 3 swamps (I really think that should be 1 land of each of the colors in this deck).

I wanted all of my threats to be scary big, well out of burn and blocker range and my land destruction component to be simulatously more extensive and more versatile at the same time.
you wanted your threats out of burn range, and yet you run Hypnotic specter? How does that work? And shade can definitely be out of burn range if you play it properly.

Captain Hammer

01-10-2009, 12:17 AM

If you can offer a constructive reply with sound reasoning to back up the reason for the suggestion, of course I'm going to consider or try it. I'm just going to ignore replies that are inflammatory and clearly not thought out or constructive instead of participating in a flame war.

Shade is too mana intensive. A late game card in an early game deck. And outclassed these days compared to the alternatives. So yes, I don't think it's very good.

I'm honestly not happy with Hyppie either. But it flies over all the Goyfs running around, and with the rise in blue decks and StPs, I don't mind having it eat a Swords so one of my better threats stick around. And if Hyppie does stick around, it will screw up any deck that runs Force of Will.

I recommend Reanimate and Swords in it's place if that fits your meta better. Hippe is a great all around card. But if your meta is filled with bigger creatures than yours, StP is the better choice. If it's filled with smaller creatures than yours, Reanimate is a great alternative for when your guys get double blocked or killed, or you make them discard their creature, or snuff it out and such.

DalkonCledwin

01-10-2009, 12:31 AM

I'm honestly not happy with Hyppie either. I recommend Reanimate and Swords in it's place if that fits your meta better. Hippe is a great all around card. But if your meta is filled with bigger creatures than yours, StP is the better choice. If it's filled with smaller creatures than yours, Reanimate is a great alternative for when your guys get double blocked and such. But it flies over all the Goyfs running around, and with the rise in blue decks and StPs, I don't mind having it eat a Swords so one of my better threats stick around. And if Hyppie does stick around, it will screw up any deck that runs Force of Will.

unfortunately your entire argument for hippie being run as opposed to another threat, is basically null and void, due to conflux and the card known as Path to Exile. Path to Exile is Swords #'s 5 to 8. Essentially meaning that even if they do nuke a hippy with either a sword or path, they have 7 more to use on your other threats.

That is why I prefer running creatures that are immune to cards from white that target. But alas, you think those cards are too mana intensive or are useless because they don't fly?

Captain Hammer

01-10-2009, 12:40 AM

How about you wait until Path to Exile actually gets printed before suggesting that people alter decklists and strategies anticipating that Path of Exile is going to dominate the format? Many people aren't even convinced that it'll see play.

unfortunately your entire argument for hippie being run over another threat, is basically null and void, due to conflux and the card known as Path to Exile. Path to Exile is Swords #'s 5 to 8. Essentially meaning that even if they do nuke a hippy with either a sword or path, they have 7 more to use on your other threats.

That is why I prefer running creatures that are immune to cards from white that target. But alas, you think those cards are too mana intensive or are useless because they don't fly?

Umm, didn't you just say the previous post that I should be playing Nantuko Shade? ... You do know that Shade isn't pro white right. Did you just mix up Shade with Stillmoon Caviliear? :really:

P.S: Yes, I would much rather play a Hippie to draw out the Swords, than play a Stillmoon Cavilier that forces my opponents to save the Swords for far better threats like Goyf, Doran and Tombstalker and is a slow ass win condition anyways.

DalkonCledwin

01-10-2009, 12:48 AM

Umm, didn't you just say the previous post that I should be playing Nantuko Shade? ... You do know that Shade isn't pro white right. Did you just mix up Shade with Stillmoon Caviliear? :really:

And how about you wait until Path to Exile actually gets printed before suggesting that people alter decklists and strategies anticipating that it's going to dominate the format?

P.S: Yes, I would much rather play a Hippie to draw out the Swords, than play a Stillmoon Cavilier that forces my opponents to save the Swords for far better threats like Goyf, Doran and Tombstalker and is a slow ass win condition anyways.

personally in my deck, which is actually a Suicide Black deck (mono color) I run both Shade and Stromgald Crusader. Shade does not have Protection from White, you are quite correct. However Stromgald Crusader does. Additionally Stromgald Crusader can gain the ability to fly.

Additionally Stillmoon Cavelier is too slow in my opinion for a Suicide deck, due to it coming out turn 3 or off of a dark ritual. The only card I feel that Suicide Decks should be running at this point that come into play turn 3 or off of a ritual is either Hyppie or the new Nyxafid or whatever its fracking name is (I provided its details in the suicide black thread if you want to know more about it).

How about I not wait. I can already tell that the card is going to be run in UGw Thresh as a sideboard card, and in all Landstill and Cunning Still decks that run white whatsoever as a main deck option. The question is in what quantity. I can also see it being run in the Mighty Quinn as well, again as a main deck option.

The question is not will Path to Exile be run, it is how many of them will be run in any given deck. It most certainly will be run to some extent.

Captain Hammer

01-10-2009, 01:11 AM

Path to Exile is Swords #'s 5 to 8. Essentially meaning that even if they do nuke a hippy with either a sword or path, they have 7 more to use on your other threats.

I think it was pretty clear in that quote how many copies of Path to Exile you think people will be packing maindeck.

I'm just saying, lets wait to see what kind of impact if any Path to Exile has before altering decklists. It's fine to discuss what impact it could theoretically have. I too think Path will have an impact somewhat. But I'm not going to change decklists based strictly on speculation about what might happen someday in the future.

personally in my deck, which is actually a Suicide Black deck (mono color) I run both Shade and Stromgald Crusader.

That's interesting but not really relevent here. Hippie is taking up a disruption slot in the deck. The threat slots are already filled with Goyf, Tombstalker and Doran.

Stromgald is not disruption, it's a threat. And I see no reason to waste a threat slot on a guy who swings for 2, or 3 only if you pump two mana into it, when you have access to 12 guys who swing for 5 each.

DalkonCledwin

01-10-2009, 01:24 AM

I think it was pretty clear in that quote how many copies of Path to Exile you think people will be packing maindeck.

No, that quote emphasized the fact that for all intents and purposes the Path is essentially the same card as Swords to plowshares (just with a different drawback than swords has). As such, it is going to be considered as swords #'s 5 to 8 when people are deciding how many of them they want to put into their deck, not necessarily that they will be included in a given deck as swords 5 to 8, just that people will be considering them as effectively swords numbers 5 to 8, as they can't be considered anything else, at least not in Legacy.

I'm just saying, lets wait to see what kind of impact if any Path to Exile has before altering decklists. It's fine to discuss what impact it could theoretically have. I too think Path will have an impact somewhat. But I'm not going to change decklists based strictly on speculation about what might happen someday in the future.

Unfortunately Swords to Plowshares as well as Oblivion Ring, is already run in enough decks to warrant some sort of countermeasures be taken to protect a given deck against them. In my case I have choosen to run cards with Protection from white. In your case you are choosing to run a card that for all intents of purposes is a weaker threat. The problem with your particular strategy, is I highly doubt that a swords player will bother to hit Hypnotic Specter with a swords to plowshares, unless they absolutely need to protect their hand from it. The card just isn't a big enough threat to warrant the removal.

That's interesting but not really relevent here. Hippie is taking up a disruption slot in the deck. The threat slots are already filled with Goyf, Tombstalker and Doran.

Stromgald is not disruption, it's a threat. And I see no reason to waste a threat slot on a guy who swings for 2, or 3 only if you pump two mana into it, when you have access to 12 guys who swing for 5 each.

The fact that you consider hippie to be a disruption peice, shows that you miscategorize Hippie. Yes, it has disruption as an added bonus, but the cards primary purpose is to act as an early game flying beatstick off of a ritual, nothing else.

Additionally, if you were to take out the hippie in favor of a different disruption card, you would be falling into another one of Team America's primary problems, "Low Threat Density vs. High Threat Quality" yes, it might sound like a good idea to run lots of high quality threats, however against decks with lots of removal spells, the less threats you run, the more likely you are to lose, especially if all of your threats are vulnerable in some way to that removal. Which is again why I run threats that are not as vulnerable to most forms of removal in my decks.

f|i[p]

01-10-2009, 01:35 AM

I have played almost a similar decklist running 3 colors, although a different variation, if you do run more white or hybrid cards,perhaps you can try chrome mox instead of ritual, not necessarily as a 4 of perhaps 3 or 2.

What I like about the 3 color list is that it gives you more threats and vindicate. I would personally run doran as a 3 of and never a 4 of just because its legendary.3 colors also gives you more sideboard options, more importantly it gives you pernicious deed as well as ghostly prisons which could definitely help against aggro and slowing them down enough. It could also give you more discard with gerrards verdict in the side if necessary. You could easily switch from aggro to control. The only usual problems I see here is ofcourse having a 3 color mana base makes us more prone to wasteland and card draw.

@ hyppie , I have never seen a hyppie considered as "not a threat", although he swings for 2, players would definitely take him out if they can. Hyppies are annoying plain and simple... The only times people don't really mind a hyppie is when they have nothing left in hand...Which is actually what we want...

@ path to exile, I personally think it wouldn't be ran as much as people think it would.

Captain Hammer

01-10-2009, 01:36 AM

Thank you flip.

Yep, after having played this for a while, I ain't ever going back to two colors.

Like you said, not only do you get a much better threat in Doran, you also get Vindicate, which is a Snuff Out + Seal of Cleansing + Sinkhole all rolled into one card. The versatility of effectively playing 12 land destruction spells along with 8 creature kill and 4 artifact/enchantment destruction is just outright unfair.

I haven't been too impressed by white's sideboard options though.

So far, the card in white that most interests me is Gadook Teeg (subbing in for Snuff Out against combo and control).

Teeg is sweet in that he jumps in for Snuff Out which is bad against Ad Nauseum and stuff like MUC and Landstill anyways, and provides a way to shut off FoW, Disk, Wrath, Ad Nauseum, Tendrils and a bunch of other cards.

StP is interesting too, but I think Edict would be better against many of the current aggro decks in the format.

Right now, the only sideboard cards I'm sure of are...
Krosan Grip
Choke

The fact that you consider hippie to be a disruption peice, shows that you miscategorize Hippie. Yes, it has disruption as an added bonus, but the cards primary purpose is to act as an early game flying beatstick off of a ritual, nothing else.

It comes down to this...

If Hippie was a 2/2 vanilla flyer for 1B mana,

Hypnotic Specter 1B
Flying
No Abilities
2/2

would that card see play in this deck? Absolutely not. Actually even if it was a 1cc 2/2 flyer, I still wouldn't play him in the deck, for the same reason that I've never bothered with Carnophage/Sarcomancy in the deck. 2 Damage a turn is not much, not enough to win games, not enough to pose a relevent threat.

Buy say, Hyppie was instead...

Hypnotic Specter 1B
Enchantment
During each of your attack steps, if Hypnotic Specter is in play, your opponent discards a card at random from his or her hand.

Would that card see play? You bet your ass it would.

That's why Hypnotic Specter is a disruption element first, and a threat second. The disruption element is valued so much higher than the 2 damage a turn element that even if the latter part was removed, it would still see play. But if the former part was removed, the card wouldn't see the light of day in legacy. This is why Hyppe's primary function is to disrupt your opponent, it just has the bonus of also being a 10 turn clock.

Illissius

01-10-2009, 08:47 AM

Have you tried using Birds of Paradise instead of Dark Ritual?

GreenOne

01-10-2009, 09:02 AM

Did you try some number of pernicious deed?
You usually want to break it for 2 (to break opposing counterbalances, Goyf, Mongeese, Dreadnough, Confidant, etc) and your permanents are all 3+CC beside goyf.

Captain Hammer

01-10-2009, 09:15 AM

Have you tried using Birds of Paradise instead of Dark Ritual?

Actually, yes, I did try out both Birds of Paradise and Pernicious Deed on various occasions.

This deck was just designed to be too much faster and less controllish than the Rock for either card to pull it's weight.

Dark Ritual is just so much more explosive than Birds, the number of broken things you can do off of a turn one Ritual is extremely high. Ritual is the reason this deck fairly consistently wins by turn 6-7 all while resolving craptons of disruption throughout. Birds doesn't do anything the turn you cast it.

Deed is similarly a really powerful effect that works better in a slower deck than it does in this deck. You're basically tying up two turns to use Deed, which is a lot for a very aggressive deck such as this. I think I'll run a few copies in the sideboard, but that's about it.

Phoenix Ignition

01-10-2009, 02:58 PM

I'm surprised that hyppie is getting so much flack. Anyone that says he's too easy to remove probably hasn't played against a first turn hyppie. How many times do you have that swords to plowshares in your opening hand with the mana you need for it. Especially if you play him 1st turn on the play. Most decks at least need to brainstorm or ponder for it, and already they're going to be down life and a random card for it. The ony guaruntee that they'll even get to kill him after that is if they have multiples of white land + swords.

I think that whole conversation was stupid, hyppie is a house when played first turn and definitely worth it.

Captain Hammer

01-10-2009, 03:18 PM

hyppie is a house when played first turn and definitely worth it.

Yes, a turn one unanswered Hyppe is a beast. No one is going to argue with you there.

But you're not usually going to get the two card combo in your opening hand to get it out turn one most games, and even when you do, it wont always get through without being StPed, creating card disadvantage for you.

And if not played turn one, it won't swing till turn 4, by which time some decks will have emptied out their hands already. This is especially pointless if you have multiple Hyppes as your only threats (which is why I'm perfectly happy with just 3x Hyppes).

Those are the main reasons I wasn't 100% completely pleased with Hyppe in Eva Green and Sui Black

Inspite of all that, Hyppe is even stronger here because this deck plays 12 land destruction spells, not eight. So the odds that your opponent's mana development is going to be slowed down a great deal while Hyppe picks off their cards one by one is proportionally much higher.

That's why I think Hyppe is the best possible card for that slot in a generic meta. In a meta that's very heavy on big creatures though, StP in it's place make sense.

JohnnyCage

01-10-2009, 03:36 PM

I was just playtesting this and hypie is very necessary, your threat count isn't that high, and swords isn't that good in a sui varient.

Gheizen64

01-10-2009, 03:46 PM

IMHO, before playing a W splash on eva green, you should try the new Nyxasomething. It would replace shade and give you that "big treath" 9-12 the deck needed so bad.
Then if the combo pte-stp worry you that much, just play stillmoon cavalier. It's unblockable (flying and pro black) can be pumped, and it's impossible to remove barring burn.

Pulp_Fiction

01-10-2009, 04:03 PM

Alright, here is the question at hand, why would you play this over B/G/w Rock? I personally play Rock and it have been very successful for me. Looking at this list I am wondering why this would be better than playing standard Rock. Rock has Hierarchs for lifegain, Deeds in the main, Eternal Witness for insanity, and Top for late game card advantage. It is also fast as hell when it needs to be, I have had numerous turn 4-6 aggro kills with back. This is what it looks like to me, you have taken Rock and removed the matter of consistency for being fast. However, it isn't that fast and it really isn't even suicide. Suicide decks win fast as hell cause they have no late game, they go all in every game for the sake of winning with minor disruption backed up by massive creatures. I have not put this list together, but I am quite experienced with these kinds of decks and it looks like a turn 5ish average kill. As the list is it looks a lot like a less consistent Rock build than it does Suicide. I would suggest looking into the Rock thread and checking out some lists there. If you really want to play Suicide stick some Dark Confidants (I realize Tombstalker, its called Suicide for a reason) and some Jittes or other pump spells and fixate on speed. This is not a flame in any way, I am simply challenging your ideas and wanting to know why this would be better than Rock if it isn't that fast.

Captain Hammer

01-10-2009, 10:48 PM

Comparing this deck to Rock doesn't make any sense.

This deck is designed to just within the first three turns, nuke two lands to mana screw the opponent, disrupt the crap out of the opponent with discard, all while dropping down a 5 powered threat, and simultanously kiling the opponent's only creature/blocker for free w/ Snuff Out, once again all this with in the first three turns, and it does all that very consistently.

The rock is a much much slower deck by comparison. I've played the Rock for years, and I know that the deck might accomplish less than half of what I said above in it's first three turns. The rock takes several turns to ramp up the mana to play it's defining cards. It plays 5cc threats like Spiritmonger and bombs like Deed that however eat up two turns worth of mana to use.

So no, I don't think you should compare the two decks or their strategies. They just play out way too differently.

b4r0n

01-11-2009, 12:39 AM

And also before you ask, yes I know that Doran is legendary. And yes, I personally run the full playset, though I posted it on the list as a 4/3 so you don't have to feel obligated to if you don't want to. And no, I don't mind that I have to occasionally keep a Doran in my hand when I already have one on the board. Because I wouldn't want to play the second Doran anyways. One should usually not over extend themselves and open themselves to a Disk or Deed or Wrath or Damnation effect like that.

This stuck out to me as untrue. Yes, against control decks like Landstill, you do not want to overextend. However, against every aggro, aggro-control, and combo deck in this format, you want to put your opponent on the fastest clock you can. There's no reason not to continue to run out threats when you have no fear of a sweepeer. So basically... legendary IS a drawback, and a relevant one at that.

Also, I'm a little confused how you can rationalize playing Doran when you also make statements like this:

Dark Ritual is just so much more explosive than Birds, the number of broken things you can do off of a turn one Ritual is extremely high. Ritual is the reason this deck fairly consistently wins by turn 6-7 all while resolving craptons of disruption throughout

Doran isn't synergetic with Ritual at all, meaning that you'll be playing it turn 3 at the absolute earliest. If your deck is trying to be "explosive," Doran just seems too slow. I'm not saying Doran is a bad card, but it's definitely more suited for a deck like The Rock than it is for your deck.

GGoober

01-11-2009, 01:32 AM

It just seems that this deck is running white just to play Doran as a 5/5 creature. Doran doesn't give buffs to other creatures in this deck due to the symmetric power/toughness ratio.

Does this deck do more disruption than Eva Green or TA in the first 2 turns? It seems that the disruption comes in more on turn3, which I can see why it's sometimes better than TA/Eva against other decks. But suppose you were facing Eva and TA, this deck would be in trouble since it operates on 3 mana, but the disruption from the other decks, being more consistent in nature, would stop this deck from hitting 3 mana.

Not sure, but I feel that in place of Doran, we could run better creatures. I just feel that Doran is a 5/5 and that's it. It doesn't have evasion and does nothing for the other creatures in the deck.

f|i[p]

01-11-2009, 02:50 AM

It runs white for the ever versatile vindicate as well...

You are right however that doran can't be cast of rituals and would usually come down a few turns later, I personally think that you should run around 3 or even lowering it down to 2 if you get colored screwed more often, A few copies of doran can always be replaced by other creatures or other utility spells, If running only 2 copies of doran, you can add gerrards verdict to add more discard, reanimate, pernicious deed. There are so many options available, and if I get to play the list , I would most probably cut doran to 2 copies now because his cc is constricting as well as his legendary status..

Have you ever tried chrome mox in your darkritual spot, 3 moxen in its place gives you another spot free.. it can still give you an early hymn, early sinkhole. but it wouldnt be as explosive as dark ritual, although it will answer color problems easier

Captain Hammer

01-11-2009, 03:50 AM

You're right flip, Vindicate is actually a bigger reason than Doran for the white splash. And eventhough Doran can't be cast off of Ritual, most of your deck can, and that's all that matters. If you have a opening Ritual, you are liable to do something broken with it, be it a first turn Hyppe, a first turn Thoughtseize + Hymn, a Thoughtseize + Sinkhole. And a single Ritual makes a turn two Tombstalker possible as well, even without having to use Snuff Out! When 70% of your deck can abuse Rituals to do ridiculously broken plays, it's not that big deal that 30% of it can't.

Does this deck do more disruption than Eva Green or TA in the first 2 turns? It seems that the disruption comes in more on turn3, which I can see why it's sometimes better than TA/Eva against other decks. But suppose you were facing Eva and TA, this deck would be in trouble since it operates on 3 mana, but the disruption from the other decks, being more consistent in nature, would stop this deck from hitting 3 mana.

I haven't found that to be the case.

This deck does the same amount of disruption on turns one and two as Eva Green or TA, more than TA actually if it gets a Ritual. But yes it can follow up early land destruction with a Vindicate to blow up another land as well.

Eva Green's entire mana disruption suite consists of 4 Wasteland + 4 Sinkhole and the occasional random discard.

This deck runs the same mana disruption suite but supplements it with 4 Vindicate. You're basically running a full third more land destruction compared to Eva Green.

Eva Green plays Seal of Cleaning in Vindicate's slot, and Seal of Cleaning does absolutely nothing to either TA or to this deck. And Eva Green plays Nantuko Shade in Dorans slot, and Nantuko Shade won't be big enough to trade with Goyfs until turn three at the earliest, the same turn that Doran comes online. But where as Nantuko Shade requires you to use up all your mana for two full turns just to trade with Goyf, Doran just uses up one turns worth of mana.

So you would be very hard pressed to argue that Eva Green has strategic superiority to this against either TA or against Sui Variants.
And I've repeatedly found Vindicate upping the land destruction suite up a full 50% compared to Eva Green to be extremely relevent. Vindicate blowing up lands cutting them off from making a recovery off of the initial sinkhole + wasteland has won me more games than I could count.

TA is a slighly different animal. You're right in that TA plays faster land destruction, and this can cause problems. But inspite of that, I've found TA to be a FAVORABLE matchup. I'm not sure exactly why that is but I think I can attribute that to a couple of things.

First, TA only runs 8 threats, which coincidently is the same number of creture removal spells that you run. On top of that, twelve of your threats will stand toe to toe with any and every one of the threats that TA manages to keep in play inspite of the removal.

Neither TA nor Doran Suicide plays any artifacts, enchantments (yet another reason why MD Seal of Cleaning in Eva wasn't optimal), planeswalkers or tribal. So both their and your goyfs remain as 4/5s, trading with Dorans and losing to Tombstalkers. Basically you play 20 cards that will stop any one of their eight threats cold.

I've frequently found that TA stalls even after an early stifle for this very reason, unable to keep a threat in play, and even if a threat is in play, being forced to trade it for one of my threats, and simply being out numbered in terms of the number of threats it has to face off against.

Ramptoniin

01-12-2009, 12:00 PM

I played around a little with this deck on Saturday in some play testing matches. I love the way it plays(obviously almost identical to eva green) but I replaced the Snuff outs for STP's. Some may call me insane for that since Snuff out is such a great Tempo card, but i think the fact that there are so many black creatures that pose real threats in the format, and the advantage STP gives of RFG'ing that it is worth playing them over Snuff Out.

Also what exactly does this deck do against Ad Nauseam? Does it just hope to get some nicely placed Hymns or a first turn Thoughtseize? It seems to be a poor matchup for this deck. I will probably run Team America or something similar in favor of this deck....but still love this and my Eva Green with white splash for Vindicate (see the Eva Green thread)

chmoddity

01-12-2009, 01:26 PM

Has anyone else noticed the humor in the idea of using Sinkhole and Path to Exile in the same deck?

I would not sweat the life gain part. With the exception of Nought, you are going to have the biggest creatures in every game. The clock will not be against you for the most part. Anyway, like it or not, there is a reason why STP is present in every single deck that has white in this format. Good decks use good cards. My guess is

-4 Specter
-4 Dark Ritual
+4 Chrome Mox or Birds of Paradise or possibly even Elves of Deep Shadow
+4 Swords to Plowshares

GUnit

01-12-2009, 02:35 PM

Hyppie is just bad in a format with daze and lots of removal. Your ritual->hyppie draws are so easy to answer. How often does a hyppie connect, really? You have enough clock in doran, tomby and goyf. I'd suggest playing either some combination of bob and top or just more disruption. Try sculler, mesmeric fiend, grunt or wretch if you really feel the need to add another creature that also disrupts your opponent.

Holo_rip

01-12-2009, 02:40 PM

Captain Hammer

01-12-2009, 07:14 PM

StP IS a really good card. I really do believe that Snuff Out is all around better in this particular deck though. Like I said, this deck wants to do a crap load of things before you even reach turn three. StP's one mana casting cost makes you 1/2 to 1 full turn slower. And on top of that, StP slows down you kill by one full turn. Both are a worthwhile price to pay for the effect that StP has, but still why pay them when you have a card like Snuff that doesn't garner either drawback. I would side some StPs and bring them in against stuff like Team America perhaps, but I would never cut Snuff Out for them.

Ad Nauseum is a powerful deck. You have Thoughtseize, and some time Hymn and Hyppe to try to disrupt it. But yes, if you don't have an opening hand with discard, you're screwed game one.

But fortunately, there's a lot of decent combo hate in GBW that you can play in the sideboard and bring in for game two. Just mulligan till you get some hate or a fistful of discard and game two should be slightly favorable. I just haven't settled on the perfect configuration of combo hate yet.

one removal / conter on hyppie is one less for tombstalker / tarmo, letting them seal the deal.
also, hyppie is here againt combo & control.

Really well put. So what if they Daze the Hyppe. I usually would rather that they use that Daze to save one of their lands from Sinkhole/Wasteland/Vindicate. So I would rather that they Daze or StP the Hyppe now than Daze or StP my Goyf/Doran/Stalker next turn.

And I would say that actually more than half the time, Hyppe manages to connect a few times before being dealt with. That is a massive amount of disruption and card advantage. And as the poster above said, Hyppe is here against combo and control. But more than, Hyppe is here against every deck that plays Force of Wills, because it is a card that will draw out you opponent's FoW plus another blue card if they have them in hand. And in doing so, clears the way for the rest of your disruption.

Lcpdenijs

01-16-2009, 05:30 AM

Would like to post my version of this deck:

creatures:
2x Doran, The Siege Tower
3x Hypnotic Specter
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tombstalker

spells:
4x Dark Ritual
2x Extirpate (dunno about this one for sure)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Snuff Out
4x Thoughtseize
4x Vindicate

Lands:
3x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
2x Extirpate
3x Krosan Grip
3x Diabolic Edict
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Pernicious Deed

Due to Snuff Out, Thoughtseize and the fetchland I will lose a lot of life tough. That is also the reason I cut out the Dark Confidants.

Captain Hammer

01-16-2009, 08:35 AM

The only difference is that your build cuts 3 threats out to make room for 2 Extripate and an extra land.

I really don't think that change is a good idea at all.

The threats are a big reason for playing this deck. This is the best threat base any deck has access to. The one and only more efficent threat in legacy (Dreadnought) requires a two card combo as the only way to get into play. So cutting such high quality threats just doesn't make any sense.

Please just run at the very least...
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Hyppe
3 Doran

at the very least... I could maybe see cutting Hyppe for something else, but everything else absolutely should't be touched.

I could see wanting to run 22 land + 4 rituals, but you'll end up getting mana flooded too often. The curve is low enough that this deck operates fine off of us even just 2 lands and a ritual. Even when you're occasionally mana screwed, your disruption all of which is 2cc and under will buy you a lot of extra time to find that third land. I've never wished that it had more lands.

Extripate is a really bad and really overrated card. Why do people like it, esp in a fast deck like this one?

Basically, Expritate says, if you managed to already deal with the first copy of an opponent's threat (either with discard or removal), you ensure that he won't later on draw an exact copy of that one particular threat, he'll draw some other threat in it's place instead. Big freaking woop. How is that even considered good?

Whatever threat it is that scares you so much that you want to remove all copies of it, do you really think it's the only scary thing in your opponent's deck? If you got it into your opponent's yard, that means that you already had and used an out against it. Just play more of that disruption. The game is usually over in the first six turns. So what're the odds that your opponent actually will even draw a second copy of that threat in those six more cards they see. They won't.

Lcpdenijs

01-16-2009, 11:29 AM

the reason I dont put 4 tombstalkers in is that I dont think 4 are justified.
Good change you already played one and emptied your graveyard, of when you draw 2 of them well... 1 of them is going to be a waste.

But I see there is need for perhaps a few more hitters, so I would suggest:
4 tarmogoyf
4 hypnotic specter
3 tombstalker
2 jotun grunt
2 doran the siege tower.

3 legendary is perhaps a little too much, and secondly, casting is could be troublesome with the 3 different colours needed to cast it.
Dont you agree on that?

Captain Hammer

01-16-2009, 12:35 PM

No I honestly don't. I've played 4 Tombstalkers forever now in decks with several fetchlands and I think 4 Tombstalker are absolutely justified in part because the card is that broken, and in part because playing 2 Tombstalkers over the course of a game isn't even slightly difficult. The fetchlands help you fill up your yard quickly. Each Tombstalker only needs eat five cards in the yard to be playable. You can get 10 cards into your yard to play two if need to. Plus you have Rituals and additional topdecked lands to help with the mana cost for the second one too. So in reality, you can play 2 Tombstalkers off of just 7-8 cards in your yard over the course of the game.

Never play less than 3 Doran. Doran is a big finisher, and one that is immune to graveyard hate unlike your other threats. It ends games fast if not dealt with, so it never mattered too much that it was legendary. My opponents either lose quickly taking 5 damage a turn, or they find a way to kill Doran and I just play my second one. I could justify cutting one and running 3, but there is absolutely no basis for going down to 2.

If you recall the best builds of White Weenie and Angel Stompy back when they were viable always ran 4 or 3 copies of Isamaru, minimuum. You can use the search function to look that if you don't believe me. And Isamaru was hardly a finisher that wins the game by itself. It was just a weenie.

Playing fewer copies of the most broken cards in the deck and playing suboptimmal cards in their place, because you don't want to risk drawing too many of them is not a good approach to deck building. You want to ensure that you draw the broken stuff every single game.

Jotun Grunt isn't just suboptimal, it just sucks in this deck imo. It's strictly inferior to both Goyf and Tombstalker and significantly undermines your ability to play a big Goyf or Tombstalker later on down the line. It's just as dependent on the yard as Tombstalker so I don't see why one would a cut back on Tombstalker to play a strictly inferior version of Tombstalker.

The point is, every threat you play should be capable of winning the game entirely by itself while the disruption eats away your opponent's ability to execute their own game plan. It's okay if your threats get killed because you only need just one of them to stick to kill off your opponent. I count Hyppe is disruption so I'm not including that in this assessment.

You have 4 Snuff Out and 4 Vindicate, and if needed some StPs from the sideboard to clear the path for your attackers. Tombstalker wins the game in 4 turns if not dealt with, Goyf in 5 turns, and Doran in 4 turns. Combined, they can win the game much faster, but the point is, that any one of them can win games entirely on their own.

Then you have Jotun Grunt, to survive five turns to be able to kill your opponent, it needs 20 cards in your two yards. The only way that's happening is if your opponent is playing Thresh. And even then, Grunt makes sure that if it dies, you won't be able to abuse your other finishers to win the game for you. That's too large a drawback.

Captain Hammer

01-17-2009, 11:46 AM

The sideboard is what I've been focused on lately. There's so many different really strong options for the board that picking the best 15 possibilities has been tough.

I settled on 4 Choke because the card is such a massive bomb against so much of the format. Being able to play 4 Choke is honestly a very good reason to play this deck.

I'm having a blast 4 Gadook Teeg. Against combo, and some control matchups, I frequently go....
-4 Snuff Out
+4 Gadook Teeg

to slow down Tendrils, Ad Nausuem, Warrens, Belcher, Force of Will, Wrath, Chalice, Explosives and other randomness.

I'm really enjoying playing 3 Diabolic Edict because Edict is so strong nowadays. It's basically StP without the lifegain for your opponent.

I played 4 Leyline of the Void against combo and possibly opposing Tombstalkers, but it never felt absolutely neccesary as a card.

I ran Krosan Grip for a while and I'm giving consideration to Krosan Grip, but Vindicate and Discard seem to be plenty capable of dealing with problem artifacts and enchantments.

I tried Engineered Plague but cut it because I didn't see many goblins or elves.

And there's a lot of other random sideboard options that I've gone back and forth on.

Any suggestions anyone?

Spare Parts

01-17-2009, 10:44 PM

I would like to support chmoddity's initiative to cut Dark Rituals and add Chrome Moxes (moxen?) to the deck. If you think about it, there is like million reasons to do so.

Dark Ritual ramps to 3 black mana 1st turn, which is all nice and yummy but! you can't use it to cast Doran, Vindicate nor Tarmogoyf, which are as I believe the strongest cards in the deck. Vindicate and especially Doran can't be really cast 'till turn 3.
Chrome Mox is a card disadvantage (as well as Dark Ritual), but provides permanent mana source (thus a few real lands may be cut from the deck, like 1-2) and opens place for 1-2 more pieces of threats/disruption. What is more important, however, is that it makes 2nd turn Doran / Vindicate and 1st turn Tarmogoyf possible, which is pure awesomeness if you ask me. It also allows to play 4 Doran, with drawn excess copies being easily imprinted.

The biggest (and probably the only) downside of the Chrome Mox is fact that it doesn't help grow Tarmogoyf nor accelerate Tombstalker (it gives mana, but no delve help here). I'm not afraid of goyf size, though, it will grow till first attack with help from opponents spells and your discard. Tombstalker delve is the real problem here...

And with moxen in the place of rituals, we may cut hippies (which are already questionable) and add some better beatsticks instead. Hurrah! :D

Captain Hammer

01-17-2009, 10:56 PM

Mordel

01-17-2009, 11:47 PM

I'm a bit drunk right now, so forgive me if you mentioned that you specifically see lots of combo, but I am going to have say that I am not really liking hyppie for anything other than a combo match in this deck.

In light of the very strong disruption suite in this deck, I'd be more in favor of something with more raw face smashing in the slot, like big negs or something.

If hyppie works, he works, but they seem like a sort of antiquated creature to me.

Spare Parts

01-18-2009, 12:19 AM

Um, why would you want to cast Tarmogoyf or Vindicate turn one?

Thoughtseize, Hymn, Sinkhole, Doran and Hyppe are the cards that are effective turn one (and the latter two are not possible turn one from Chrome Mox either. Goyf comes in as a 0/1 attacker. And Vindicate is the card you sholuld only use one you figure out what your gameplan is and what your oponent's gameplan is (ie. if you manage to blow up a few lands, then you use vindicate to blow up their last one, if they resolve a scary threat, you use vindicate on that, you never want to lead the game with vindicate.

Turn one, you want to cast disruption, and feeds cards into both graveyards in the process.

Try Chrome Mox out before deciding that's what this deck needs. I tried it out in Sui before, and Sui unfortunately can't make up for that much card disadvantage. There's never anything that you want to Chrome Mox either, every spell you play is a bomb that you want to use. Plus you don't have any card draw, so the 2 for 1 card disadvantage really hurts that much more.If Chrome Mox is 2 for 1, then Dark Ritual is 1 for 0 card disadvantage. It's why the deck is being called "suicide", isn't it? ;)
Also, I was talking about Vindicate t2 and not t1 as you wrongly state, and Vindicate t2 already has lots of juicy targets potentially (like goyf or CB).
Tarmogoyf t1 = 0/1, true, but he's not attacking yet, is he? Next turn there's nothing stopping us from playing any hymn/thoughtseize/sinkhole/whatever we want to and growing him before attacking (not counting that there was at least one opponent's turn in the process). All I did was only speeding things up, attacking a whole turn sooner.

As to imprinting cards onto Chrome Mox - trust me on this - Chrome Mox is the same card disadvantage as Dark Ritual. I will try to show it on an example.

Let's imagine we start the game with 7 cards in hand, and play t1 land and Dark Ritual. Now we have 5 cards in hand and 1 permanent in game, which means 5+1 = 6 cards total.
If we instead play t1 land, chrome mox and imprint, we have 2 cards in game and 4 cards in hand, meaning that we have the same 2+4 = 6 cards total.
It's the same. Chrome Mox is like an extra land, and random imprinted card is like the "Dark Ritual" which got used. And we have 1 extra mana for the rest of the game.

To say that "every spell is a bomb" and "i want to use it" is just plain wrong. I already explained that each and every card we imprint is basically a "Dark Ritual". Chrome Mox itself is a "land". We throw away a "dark ritual". 4x Chrome Mox = 4x card disadvantage = 4x Dark Ritual. Absolutely no difference. It's a suicide deck, after all.

As I said - if Chrome Mox doesn't cripple the ability to play fast Tombstalker too much, it's probably better than Dark Ritual by a long margin (in this 3color deck, ofc).

Hummingbird TG

01-18-2009, 09:15 AM

If Chrome Mox is 2 for 1, then Dark Ritual is 1 for 0 card disadvantage. It's why the deck is being called "suicide", isn't it? ;)
Also, I was talking about Vindicate t2 and not t1 as you wrongly state, and Vindicate t2 already has lots of juicy targets potentially (like goyf or CB).
Tarmogoyf t1 = 0/1, true, but he's not attacking yet, is he? Next turn there's nothing stopping us from playing any hymn/thoughtseize/sinkhole/whatever we want to and growing him before attacking (not counting that there was at least one opponent's turn in the process). All I did was only speeding things up, attacking a whole turn sooner.

As to imprinting cards onto Chrome Mox - trust me on this - Chrome Mox is the same card disadvantage as Dark Ritual. I will try to show it on an example.

Let's imagine we start the game with 7 cards in hand, and play t1 land and Dark Ritual. Now we have 5 cards in hand and 1 permanent in game, which means 5+1 = 6 cards total.
If we instead play t1 land, chrome mox and imprint, we have 2 cards in game and 4 cards in hand, meaning that we have the same 2+4 = 6 cards total.
It's the same. Chrome Mox is like an extra land, and random imprinted card is like the "Dark Ritual" which got used. And we have 1 extra mana for the rest of the game.

To say that "every spell is a bomb" and "i want to use it" is just plain wrong. I already explained that each and every card we imprint is basically a "Dark Ritual". Chrome Mox itself is a "land". We throw away a "dark ritual". 4x Chrome Mox = 4x card disadvantage = 4x Dark Ritual. Absolutely no difference. It's a suicide deck, after all.

As I said - if Chrome Mox doesn't cripple the ability to play fast Tombstalker too much, it's probably better than Dark Ritual by a long margin (in this 3color deck, ofc).

Except it means that you lose Turn 1 Hyppie (then probably you could consider chucking Hyppie out too), turn 1 Hymn + Thoughtseize, turn 1 Thoughtseize + Sinkhole, .etc. Whether or not it's a worthwhile tradeoff is debatable, but by losing your nutty starts, it's definitely not a large margin.

Spare Parts

01-18-2009, 01:14 PM

Except it means that you lose Turn 1 Hyppie (then probably you could consider chucking Hyppie out too), turn 1 Hymn + Thoughtseize, turn 1 Thoughtseize + Sinkhole, .etc. Whether or not it's a worthwhile tradeoff is debatable, but by losing your nutty starts, it's definitely not a large margin.
Well, let's take a closer look at those "nutty starts". There are 16 cards that may be played from a Dark Ritual mana - 4x hippie, 4x sinkhole, 4x hymn, 4x thoughtseize. Possible combinations are only 3:
hyppie, or
sinkhole + thoughtseize, or
hymn + thoughtseize.
Which basically means that if we don't have hyppie or thoughtseize, we can't spend whole 3 mana from Dark Ritual.
And that's not all, because if we are on the play (50% times) we can't even use sinkhole (opponent has no lands yet), which leaves us with just 2 possible combinations.

Doesn't seem too explosive to me, to be honest it seems more "random" than "explosive".

And yes, I fully agree with Hypnotic Specter taken out of the deck in case a Chrome Mox is added. It may be replaced with Dark Confidant (yes, I know of the long list of reasons against DC in eva green and monoblack suicide - but DC t1 is a really strong play, moreso in the deck with so much landdestruction. And it was just an idea, take it or leave it if you like.)

Lcpdenijs

01-18-2009, 01:16 PM

I think Dark Rituals are a must in the deck. What the above poster stated, turn 1 thoughtseize + hymn, of turn 1 hyppie... priceless.

Think I am goin to playtest 3x Doran, 3x Tombstalker, 4x Hyppie and 4x Goyf.

Captain Hammer

01-18-2009, 02:28 PM

As you admit, Ritual often feeds two more cards to the yard than if you play Chrome Mox (the Ritual itself, and the card you would have played but had to instead imprint to Chrome Mox). And that two cards are very significant for Tombstalker and Goyf to a lesser extent. It's basically like Ritual gives you four extra mana to play Tombstalker with than just one.

You're really understimating the versatility of Ritual. Not only does it allow truly broken plays turn one, it also allows for a Tombstalker to be cast on turn two off the back of a single ritual, fetchlands and a thoughtseize. I've won many many games thanks to fetchlands plus a turn one Thoughtseize taking out their StP followed with a turn two Ritual Tombstalker. And it allows for plenty of other broken plays turn two as well.

Tombstalker makes Ritual almost always handy to have. Also whether Chrome Mox is theoretically more card disadvantage than Ritual or not is irrelevent, because...

If you use up anything other than the slots devoted to lands in this deck to make room for Chrome Mox, then that Mox plus the card you imprint to it will mean that for all practical purposes, it is more virtual card disadvantage than ritual, since you cut out business spells on top of imprinting another one to make room for Chrome Mox. So a manabase with Chrome Mox would have to play 13 lands + 4 wasteland + 4 chrome mox to not offer card disadvantage compared to ritual. If you can build a consistent manabase off of that and find good strong business spells to replace the rituals, then I agree that Chrome Mox is no more card disadvantage than Ritual.

But really, I've out many different configurations with Chrome Mox before and Chrome Mox is just poor in the deck.

raharu

01-24-2009, 12:39 AM

Why not play an actual threat, like, say, Ashenmoor Gouger, in the Hypnotic Specter slot? 1/4th of your deck consisting of threats with 4 power or higher is srs bsns.

Captain Hammer

01-24-2009, 03:29 AM

It's a good point. But I've actually been surprisingly pleased with Hyppe in this deck so far. It's all around a solid card. Diverting removal away from my bigger threats, or disrupting my opponents and gaining me card advantage.

I'm also not convinced how much of a threat Ashenmoor Gouger is though.

What I want to test in Hyppe's slot is this...

Knight of the Reliquary

1GW
Creature - Human Knight

Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1 for each land card in your graveyard.

T, Sacrifice a Forest or Plains: Search your library for a land card, put it into play, then
shuffle your library.

2/2

The idea of turning every land after your third into a fetchland, all while pumping this guy's size up seems appealing.

But I hate that it can't be played off a ritual. If I end up playing this, I would be forced to play either Birds of Paradise or Chrome Mox or the new Birds I guess in Ritual's slot, officially foregoing the speed and ruthlessness of this deck for a more Rockeque strategy.

The only other problem is, as a beater it's not super synergic with Tombstalker.

I would primarily be using it as disruption, fetching wasteland after wasteland with it, and only then beating up on them with a 6/6.

raharu

01-24-2009, 03:39 AM

Eh... It seems weak in this shell. And small, that too. Seems like Gouger would be just about on par mid-game (which you really don't seem to want to get past anyway), and not graveyard dependent, and wouldn't clash with Tombstalker... Knight of the Reliquary seems slower than desired.

Captain Hammer

01-24-2009, 09:55 AM

Yeah, you're probably correct.

Captain Hammer

01-25-2009, 10:22 PM

Loxodon Baileyarch

01-25-2009, 11:39 PM

What're your thoughts on devoting a whopping 8 slots in the sideboard to hating on all bluebased decks.

4 Choke
4 Tsumani

should overwhelm blue based decks of all forms, from TA to Landstill to Thresh to even stuff like Fairie Stompy.

What do you guys think? Is it overkill?

If blue is going to be as prevalent as it seems like it will, then it would be downright broken to play 8 one sided Armageddons. But that only leaves 7 slots for Krosan Grip, Leyline of the Void, Edict, Pithing Needle, Gadook Teeg/Canonist and others to fight over.

What would your sideboard look like?

Which is better? Choke or Tsunami.

I think that much blue based hate is not required, but i mean if you hate blue as much as i do, then i'd probably run it anyway. Most blue players assume green players have Choke, but Tsunami would knock em off their feet. Last week i was playing, and i looked to my right, and this Goblins player resolved Boil against a mono-blue Landstill player late game, and it was hilarious.

Go flashy Mr. Hammer :cool:

Lcpdenijs

01-26-2009, 11:01 AM

I like Tsunami.
Fits well with the LD part of the deck.
And with a Dark Ritual its easy to cast.

Ch@os

01-26-2009, 11:13 AM

Tsunami, perish and cards like this are not flexible enough to be played in a real Legacy-Metagame.
Choke is really enough to hate some blue player.

Go ahead and pwn your monoU friend with Tsunami but on a tournament it sucks.

Captain Hammer

01-26-2009, 07:51 PM

Go ahead and pwn your monoU friend with Tsunami but on a tournament it sucks.

Tsunami isn't just against monoU.

It blows up 90%+ of the colored lands in Thresh, Dreadstill, Landstill, Team America, Fish, Fairies and most of the other cards in the format.

Any colored mana producing lands left untouched can be taken out by Wasteland, Sinkhole and Vindicate.

sauce

01-26-2009, 09:37 PM

Tsunami isn't just against monoU.

It blows up 90%+ of the colored lands in Thresh, Dreadstill, Landstill, Team America, Fish, Fairies and most of the other cards in the format.

Any colored mana producing lands left untouched can be taken out by Wasteland, Sinkhole and Vindicate.

tsunami is not bad considering countertops can hit 3 drops easier than 4 drops.

jebus

01-26-2009, 10:07 PM

Yep, Tsunami, for the reasons stated above. better effect, gets through CB, can be Ritualed in. Plus, it can catch opponents off guard.

I've been trying this deck out, and I've found that
1. I prefer Ashenmoor Gouger to both Doran AND Hyppie, which leads me to consider Nyxathid as well.
2. 21 lands (4 colorless) in a deck with 3 colors and no library manipulation (not to mention having a key threat that has all 3 colors), no matter how many of those lands are fetches, feels like a stretch.
2. I've been itching to add Phyrexian Arena (probably because of the discussion on the BW Confidant thread) to this, and I'm thinking it just might work. I don't know what to cut, though.

Lcpdenijs

01-27-2009, 01:55 AM

1. Ashenmoor is easier to cast then Doran, but Doran is more versatile.
2. I've been playing this deck quite a bit and really don't have that much mane problems at all. 8 fetchlands and say 4 duals of white and 4 of green give you 12 cards that give the right mana. Should be enough.
3. No clue about what to cut either. The few games I played with Doran Suicide I didn't need the extra cards since I got a steady beater on the board and an opponent with hardly any lands and/or cards due to the LD, discard and him having to block my heavy hitter each turn until he ran out.

jebus

01-27-2009, 03:09 AM

Ashenmoor is easier to cast then Doran, but Doran is more versatile.

This is probably what 1. and 2. boil down to. I run into a lot of non-basic hate, so I prefer having a steady supply of basics... and of course, those basics would be swamps, which would favor Gouger more than Doran. I'm gonna go with 4 Gouger and 2 Doran for now, with 22 lands.

Captain Hammer

01-27-2009, 03:53 AM

I originally considered Phyrexian Arena as well. But then I figured out that it's more advantages to make your opponent discard a card at random each turn and lose two life, than for you to draw a card at random each turn and lose one life. That's why I opted to try Hyppe back in the deck, and I don't regret the decision at all. Hyppe is a good creature all around.

But there's nothing wrong with playing Gouger in Hyppe's slot if you wanted more beef.

2. I've been playing this deck quite a bit and really don't have that much mane problems at all. 8 fetchlands and say 4 duals of white and 4 of green give you 12 cards that give the right mana. Should be enough.

I've had the same experience with the deck. The mana is not a problem. If you have trouble with 8 fetchlands, you can opt to play 9 Fetchlands, 3/3 Dual Split, and 2 Swamp. With a manabase like this, when you get to 3 lands, it's actually unlikely that you wouldn't have access to all three colors by then.

Unknown2

01-27-2009, 12:26 PM

see, my issue with gouger is that it cannot block. A lot of the time, even from turn 4 on, i am looking for a creature to block, say because they burned my hyppie, or swords my tarmo.
Either way, gouger is only good, in my opinion, when you're already racing them, it seems good at first, for a 4/4 for 3cc, but it's always so underwhelming.

CaptShetz

01-27-2009, 01:40 PM

I hope I'm not beating a dead horse, but having played monoblack suicide for a LOOONG time, I can attest to both the effectiveness of hypnotic specter and dark ritual, even when splashing other colors.

Its important to remember that Dark Ritual isn't just for explosive turn 1 plays. It also helps to make explosive turn 2 and 3 plays, or even explosive turn 6 plays, if it comes to that (well, in a deck not running Confidant or Arena, that 6 turn stuff is harder, but still...).

I mean, think about this series of plays...

Turn 1: fetchland into scrubland. Play Thoughtseize/duress.
Turn 2: fetch/drop bayou (or any non-wasteland land). Play Dark Ritual off Bayou. now you have access to bbb w/b. You can play hymn+sinkhole, hippie+thoughtseize/duress, or even vindicate+duress/thoughtseize, or whatever. If you have a goyf, use the scrubland (or any other non-wasteland card in the deck, having fetched/played bayou first turn) to play the ritual and get access to bbbg, cast hymn/sinkhole then goyf. If you played two fetchland (or had a crazy first turn), you can play Tombstalker.

The only card in the deck that ritual doesn't help is Doran. I really don't think that is a good reason to cut Dark Ritual.

As for Ashenmoor Gouger, I'd rather play Phyrexian Negator. If you want more beef... get even more beef! Yes, it sucks against burn. But guess what, so does the entire suicide archetype. Move to game 2. The Negator offers one more power, and the trample can often be relevant (who cares about sacrificing permanents when you are swinging for lethal). Plus, with access to both vindate and snuff out, you should be able to clear the board of any problematic things in the Negator's way, and hopefully your discard will get rid of those lightning bolts, which are really only played in burn and U/G/r thresh anyway (you can thank chalice of the void and cb for reducing their number, I think).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Captain Hammer

01-27-2009, 04:31 PM

Solid points all around, thank you. And I happen to agree with you completely, which is why the list in the OP looks the way it does.

Like you said, I suppose you could play Negator in place of Hyppe. But even with all this removal, I don't feel like taking that chance. Hyppe is a fantastic creature with no drawback. Negator does have a relevent drawback, esp now that Thresh lists are playing burn spells too.

jebus

01-28-2009, 01:19 AM

Further testing has proven Gougers to be less than ideal as well, so it's back to Hyppies and Dorans for now. I'll be testing Nyxathid next. It seems like a lock given the deck's discard capabilities, but the deck's LD could also mean that cards get clogged up in his hand. Hopefully it works as a 2- or 3-of.

I, however, still like 22 lands. I could see going back to 21 if Nyxathid manages to replace Doran, though.

Captain Hammer

01-28-2009, 02:04 AM

Keep me informed. I'm interested to see how Nyxthid pans out in testing.

I really haven't bothered to test it as I don't see it having much potential. It can't be ritualed out turn one (which is the only way I would consider replacing Doran with another large three drop beater). And control and even aggro control matchups do a reasonably good job of keeping more than a couple of cards at all times. So I see it being a very conditional card, poor against multiple matchups. Plus, it makes you rather dependent on your Hymns resolving.

But if I'm wrong I would be happy to get a playset and try it out.

jebus

01-28-2009, 05:17 AM

Lcpdenijs

01-29-2009, 02:44 AM

Will do. I'm testing two decks right now, Bw Arena and Doran Suicide, and I'm going to be running Nyxathid in both. I think he'll do better in Arena (simply because Arena allows for more sustained disruption), but he may also be worth a shot here.

Could you post your decklist for the Bw Arena deck?

Captain Hammer

02-05-2009, 01:42 PM

KOR is a really strong card. It can pump itself larger than potential blockers like Mystic Enforcer and Goyf (Doran is stuck as a 5/5). And most importantly, it can help you go the mana disruption route. Plus it can be played off a wasteland colorless mana too unlike Doran.

I would replace Doran with KOR in a heartbeat if only were it not for the dysnergy with Tombstalker.

If you eat up your whole yard to play Tombstalker, then KOR comes out as just a 2/2 rather than the 4/4 or 5/5 that it usually comes out as.

I just wish there was something to get around that.

I may just say screw it and try the card here anyways.

voska

02-19-2009, 04:13 PM

What I want to test in Hyppe's slot is this...

Knight of the Reliquary

The only other problem is, as a beater it's not super synergic with Tombstalker.

I would primarily be using it as disruption, fetching wasteland after wasteland with it, and only then beating up on them with a 6/6.

Couldn't you just use the KoR to fetch lands and use those lands to bring out tombstalker faster? Plus in the end you will have less of a chance to draw a land card when you don't want one. I think the whole thing balances out.

DalkonCledwin

02-26-2009, 10:36 PM

The point is, every threat you play should be capable of winning the game entirely by itself while the disruption eats away your opponent's ability to execute their own game plan. It's okay if your threats get killed because you only need just one of them to stick to kill off your opponent. I count Hyppe is disruption so I'm not including that in this assessment.

Except I have found time and time again that an unanswered hippy is capable of winning games if played relatively early.

Let's imagine we start the game with 7 cards in hand, and play t1 land and Dark Ritual. Now we have 5 cards in hand and 1 permanent in game, which means 5+1 = 6 cards total.
If we instead play t1 land, chrome mox and imprint, we have 2 cards in game and 4 cards in hand, meaning that we have the same 2+4 = 6 cards total.
It's the same. Chrome Mox is like an extra land, and random imprinted card is like the "Dark Ritual" which got used. And we have 1 extra mana for the rest of the game.

I am not following your logic...

Okay say I play a land, then play a dark ritual... I get 3 mana, and I play a hippy... I just played 3 cards for the price of 2... leaving me with 4 in my hand and my opponent with 7 in his hand, but a threat which must be dealt with or else he will start losing a card and 2 life per turn.

Now if instead I play a land, then a ritual, then a seize, and a hymn, I have played 4 cards leaving me with 3 cards in hand, but at the same time lowering the number of cards in my opponents hand by 3 as well leaving me with 3 and my opponent with 4.

Now, if I play a land, then a mox, imprinting something that is black or black/white on it, and then play a hymn... I have lost 4 cards, leaving me with 3 cards... at the same time lowering my opponents cards by only 2 cards. Leaving me with 3 cards, and my opponent with 5 cards.

In otherwords, though Dark Ritual technically lowers your card advantage, it also gives you the ability to hamper your opponents card advantage a little better than a Chrome Mox would be capable of doing in the same slot in a given deck.

Well, let's take a closer look at those "nutty starts". There are 16 cards that may be played from a Dark Ritual mana - 4x hippie, 4x sinkhole, 4x hymn, 4x thoughtseize. Possible combinations are only 3:
hyppie, or
sinkhole + thoughtseize, or
hymn + thoughtseize.

You have obviously never seen this:

First Turn on the draw:
1 Swamp + 2 Rituals in hand + Tombstalker
Off the top-deck another ritual
play Tombstalker off of the 3 Rituals by removing one of the rituals from the game for a delve cost...

In otherwords, one additional nutty play that is possible off of rituals, which is not possible off of Chrome Mox... is First Turn Tombstalker...

P.S. sorry for beating a dead horse if it indeed is dead, but I felt this point hadn't been thoroughly articulated properly.

whienot

02-26-2009, 10:50 PM

Just an observation: You don't have to have 3 Rituals to get 1st turn stalker. 2 rits and a fetch will do it.

And I have seen this one in tournament play. A GP side event no less.

DalkonCledwin

02-26-2009, 10:59 PM

Just an observation: You don't have to have 3 Rituals to get 1st turn stalker. 2 rits and a fetch will do it.

And I have seen this one in tournament play. A GP side event no less.

that is true... I hadn't even thought of that (the deck I got the turn 1 Tombstalker out in didn't have alot of fetches in it (I think it only had one) so there wasn't really a use for the fetches in getting the tombstalker out using the rituals).

And I am pretty certain that a turn one 5/5 is probably about as broken a play as you can come up with... that is afterall why people liked Ritual + Negator for so long isn't it??? Well the difference with this one, is that Tombstalker doesn't have Negator's nasty side effect :p

DragoFireheart

05-26-2009, 02:22 PM

Think this deck can take advantage of some of the new Reborn cards?

( Leech, Pulse, Pridemage, etc)

Also, I see some people dismissing Doran because of it's multi color cost, Ritual, etc.

These are drawbacks, but it has other strengths as well. Ex: It helps hose Goblin Piledriver which can be relevant.

joey223

06-07-2009, 01:28 AM

people... people...

please do not bash dark ritual.you are grossly underestimating its power.
i have been playing with that card forever and can say it allows for the most broken plays.i mean turn 1 stalker should be enuff.previous posts have gone into detail plenty, of to which i agree.

if your bashing it ,perhaps you have never played with it?
your really,really missing out on some crazy plays without it.
a deck like this really needs dark rit. for early disruption.

just my humble opinion.

love the decklist by the way.

joey223

06-09-2009, 11:01 PM

hey!!!!

any updates on this deck like tourney finishes or changes in the deck.

or is it just dead?

love the list though

popeye79

01-27-2010, 10:30 PM

hi, i'm a regular over at salvation and i've been playing eva green for some time now.

in regards to sideboard- why would you ever dedicate 8 slots to 4 choke and 4 tsunami? you're already running 12 maindecked ld spells and should do pretty well vs any blue deck. i've been playing 3 chokes in eva green and thats been fine.

i just recently switched over to the white splash and was hopeing to get some feedback, as it's been doing very well for me but there's always room for improvment.. right? first the deck and then some explainations.

3 bobs
3 vampire nighthawks
4 goyfs
3 doran
1 terravore
4 dark rits
2 duress
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn
4 sink holes
3 vinidcate
3 swords
2 shadow of doubt
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 swamp
1 murmuring bosk
4 bayou
4 scrubland
4 wasteland

sb (not firm on this)
1 choke
3 krosan grip
3 extirpate
2 ravenous trap
2 gaddox teeg
3 pernicious deeds
1 shadow of doubt

61 cards i've been a fan of for a while, especialy with a mana base like this. you can chnage if you'd like, but don't even bother trying to change my mind on this one, at least not in this deck.

3 bobs is the right number because you're busy disrupting early. nothing costs more than 3cmc, so i've not been afraid to play out 2 or even all 3.

vampire nighthawks have been amazing for me, help with bobs pain, are bigger with doran, versitile removal similar to vindicate, though i may drop one.

3 swords- with nighthawks, vinidcates and discard i didn't feel the full set was needed. low cmc helps with bob, as well as being able to hit your own creature in a pinch.

3 dorans due to legendary and wanting to run out threats, in addition to color requirents.

1 terravore due to color requirement, but it's a bomb, and with bob you'll draw it more often than not. it's pretty easy to play him as a 12/12, and trample is just cake.

2 dures ensures a good durn one play, and i face a lot of control.

3 vindicates- color reqirment and you'll never want to play it early anyway. you always wait until you've disrupted and figure out your opponents game plan.

2 shadow of doubt- this one will probably be the hardest one to sell, but i swear it's pimp juice. not only is it LD, but it replaces itself, and most importantly it's great vs natural order, gifts, ect. i even have a third one in the board. but 2 sylivan librarys might work here.. there really are a lot of things you could put in these slots. however i urge you to try it before you knock it.

single choke because you're not really gonna want to see more than one, and it's not really needed.

extirpate and trap vs ichorid. but if you know someone's not playing basics, extirpate a color source can be hard too.

i know deeds is slow, but it's great vs enchantress. helps vs ichorid tokens. pretty good with zoo and elves. and mops the floor with afinity (yes, i actulay have to play these match ups).

so, what does everyone think? i'd especialy like to hear from you captain hammer.

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