[Single Card Comparisons] Mind Harness vs. Submerge vs. Threads of Disloyalty

[jazzykat]

Since the GP is coming up and while our Legacy authors can only do so much I thought I should bring up 3 cards which are all a non-STP answer to Goyf which can be played by many of the DTB/DTW that play the blue based Aggro-Control/Control-Aggro role. All non white versions of Thresh would be interested as well as Dreadstill.

BTW they all pitch to FOW :rolleyes:

U Mind Harness - Enchantment
Enchant red or green creature
Cumulative upkeep 1

Purpose: A very targeted solution to remove goyf for long enough to win.

Pros
1 Cheapest CC solution to goyf, and country side crusher
2 Enchantment-relatively hard to remove
3 Semi-Permanent solution
4 Grabs a lot of tempo for a little mana

Cons
1 1 CC Gets owned by Counter/Top
2 Cumulative upkeep requires a constant investment
3 If it is removed, they get the goyf back
4 Primarily, a goyf only solution doesn't take care of tombstalker or dreadnaught

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4U Submerge - Instant

If an opponent controls a Forest and you control an Island, you may play Submerge without paying its mana cost.
Put target creature on top of its owner's library.

Purpose: Creature Bounce/Tempo

Pros
1 Is often a "Free" timewalk against the decks it matters most against (i.e. anything with forests which is most decks with creatures due to the goyf splash)
2 Potential for pseudo removal- "In response to cracking your fetch...."
3 Instant-tapped out surprise factor
4 Can hit just about anyone
5 Can get back your own guy that is stolen
6 Often gets around counterbalance
7 Can screw with opponents CB by putting something else on top of their library or your own in a pinch
8 Probably the best answer to tombstalker besides STP as they aren't always going to be able to recast it

Cons
1 Requires you to have an island (often not a problem)
2 Not a permanent solution
3 Almost never cast for its actual mana cost
4 UR dreadstill is immune to it
5 Not as powerful as actually grabbing the creature



UU1 Threads of Disloyaly - Enchantment

Enchant creature with converted mana cost 2 or less
You control enchanted creature.

Pros
1 Permanent solution to Goyf, Bob, and Dreadnaught
2 Often gets around CB and also shores up the often low 3CC slot in your own deck when running CB
3 Doesn't require a constant mana investment
4 Doesn't depend on your opponent having anything other than a 2 or less cc creature


Cons
1 Doesn't hit Tombstalker
2 Slower than the other options: given that stifle is abound and to a point wasteland it may be slightly too late to the party and would need 4 mana to play around Daze. This becomes much more of a lategame card.
3 You invest more mana to play it than they did to play the creature-not as tempo"ey".
4 If it is removed, they get X back
5 Is smother just better?

Obviously, "it depends on your meta", so lets constrain this discussion to the GP. Unfortunately for this to be useful you may need to constrain it further to what archetype/deck, although I think we all need to deal with Tarmogoyf and being able to deal with other creatures is a bonus.

[Jak]

The cards are somewhat different since 2 of the 3 actually steal the creature while Submerge puts it on top of their library. Anyway, it seems obvious that Submerge is the best choice right now. Hits Tombstalker (Eva and TA), hits Goyf (everything he's in), hits Crusher and Terravore (Aggro Loam), and hits anything else like Dreadnoughts in Urg Dreadstill. The card is amazingly powerful right now hitting all the big creatures (except Dreadnought sometimes of course). It being free allows for some sweet tricks and surprises. It is also an amazing response to a fetch as you said.

[Gheizen64]

I agree. Submerge is tech, as Stalker and Dreadnaught are very vulnerable to bounce.

[dahcmai]

It kind of depends on how fast of a clock you have yourself in my opinion.

I use old fashioned Control Magic myself just because we have an abundance of Dreadnoughts, Goyfs, and Tombstalkers to deal with and I play a very slow style deck. Sometimes I take a hit from a Nought, but for the most part I steal them and it's GG. I play maindeck seal of cleansing and Aura of Silence also furthering the cause for CM.

Submerge just wouldn't do much for me other than basically be a 2 turn fog. I do play STP so Threads would be the best choice overall for my deck. (I just don't own any).

If I was playing a Threshold style, I think I'd have to go with Submerge since the tempo gain would be worth it.

I can't see Mind Harness being all that hot unless you have a good answer to Noughts early. I guess it depends on if you expect to see them where you play. I see them a lot so I wouldn't even think about boarding them. If you have a problem with early Goyfs, I can see it.

[jazzykat]

The cards are somewhat different since 2 of the 3 actually steal the creature while Submerge puts it on top of their library.

You know, I was of that opinion until I thought about it some more. They are all situationally powerful cards that are limited in the way they deal with a creature.

Anyway, I tend to agree with dahcmai about how fast your deck actually is. He seems to have success with Control Magic which takes anything!

I find it to be an interesting conundrum as it seems to come down to the metagame and the speed at which your deck will win.

[SpikeyMikey]

Shush. I've got 4 Submerge in my board, I don't want everyone and their mother being prepared for it.

[Fossil4182]

I worry that Mind Harness has some "win more" issues. As pointed out, besides, Country Side Crusher and DragonStompy targets, this card is meant to be used as an answer to Goyf. That being said, most decks have some way to deal with Goyf already. TA has Snuff Out, DreadStill has EE, Threshold has X (Depending on color), StP, Smother, Deed all answer it fairly well. Granted, stealing a Goyf and beating face with it is just awesome, but its still a win more card. Plus it gets worse the longer its on the board because unless you win before the upkeep becomes too expensive, your opp gets a huge tempo boost. I worry with all of the Grips running around or any bounce that Threads or Harness become worse because of the tempo loss. Submerge has some merit because the creature goes away and most decks splash for Goyf, however I hate to have your plans ruined by a Grip or enchantment removal. Plus, both Harness and Threads can be nuked by EE still leaving Goyf on the table.

I think one of the larger problems hitting Legacy right now is that deck building has moved away dealing with creatures. I mean a good tuned deck that realizes most decks only run between 8-12 threats could easily run the the tables. Having MD answers allow you to put stuff in the board that's going to increase your match up chance, not push it up to where it ought to be in the first place.

[FoolofaTook]

Mind Harness doesn't target enough creatures to even be worth considering playing. It misses Tombstalker, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Dark Confidant, Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Exalted Angel, Nimble Mongoose, Gigapede, Morphling, Mishra's Factory, Mutavault and just about any normally janky creature that a rogue deck might throw in your face suddenly and make you answer. As a sideboard card it's weak also. If you can't handle Goyf and Lackey maindeck you're really not going to be very effective with a limited duration single target solution in the sideboard. It would help against Aggro-Loam but there are other options (Threads of Disloyalty for one) that are much more effective for that and against the vast majority of the decks in the meta Mind Harness would just sit in your sideboard taking up space.

Submerge is deadweight against any deck not playing forests and it's also an imperfect removal spell since you're going to need another answer the following turn to keep the threat from re-emerging. The conditionality of it puts it firmly in the realm of "cool things". Pitchability to Force of Will is an asset in a card that has other strong value, it's just trivia when the card has real downsides early in the game. Submerge might be strong in a meta that was heavily slanted towards Eva Green and variants but it's weak in the meta we have.

Threads of Disloyalty is the possibility that might have some validity in today's Legacy environment. It only critically misses as early removal on Tombstalker and it's additional midgame vulnerability is mainly to creatures who can be recurred and to manlands. As a 3cc spell it also has some value with Counterbalance alongside it's value with FoW.

[dahcmai]

We do have one person around here playing with Dominates. As I mentioned we have a ton of Dreadnoughts and goyfs so I can't say it's bad. You can't disenchant it so it has a plus for that. It has one benefit over a Thread, you can steal Mishra's. It's old tech from the Vintage days of Masknought.

Thing is, it's all relevant to the deck you're putting it in.

Mind Harness I see being good in one deck and that's Survival. It's the one deck that doesn't handle 1st turn Lacky, 2nd turn Goyfs, and such real well. It only needs to hold out to about 4 mana to start gaining back ground and stabilizing. It has STP, but that only goes so far against those fast green and red decks when you're playing Survival.

I play Control Magic for one other reason. It's 4cc. I play an odd custom W/U Moat control with counterbalances similar to what Zvi played when he hit the Legacy scene a while back. Tutoring it up via Elightened Tutor stops a few 4 cc threats and shocks people when you do it. Nothing like nailing a smokestack, Gifts, Fact or Fiction, Aluren, Ill Gotten Gains, or some such with it. I kind of wish it costed 3 since there's not many threats at 4 I really care about, but it's a nice knowing you can when you want. It's surprising how many people try to play EE against me at 4 mana to try and get past the counterbalance so it's stays for now.

[FoolofaTook]

}Mind Harness I see being good in one deck and that's Survival. It's the one deck that doesn't handle 1st turn Lacky, 2nd turn Goyfs, and such real well. It only needs to hold out to about 4 mana to start gaining back ground and stabilizing. It has STP, but that only goes so far against those fast green and red decks when you're playing Survival.

You would splash blue into Survival for Mind Harness? In a deck that already has Swords to Plowshares available? I could see splashing blue into Survival for very few cards, maybe Brainstorm or Meddling Mage or even Trinket Mage, however Mind Harness is not on that list.

[Illissius]

Mind Harness was better back when we had more Dorans, Terravores and Crushers running around than Tombstalkers and Dreadnoughts. It's also improved if you have some sort of sacrifice outlet, like Cabal Therapy.

I really want to play Dominate in something.

[Forbiddian]

Uh, the three cards have totally different roles.


Mind Harness is fundamentally a 2:1, not just temporary spot removal. Depending on the deck that you're playing, you can grab your opponent's Goyf and then march two Goyfs (or his Goyf and whatever attackers you have) across the red zone to win. It's a terrible card if you're not actually going to DO anything with the 2:1 and just wait for the cumulative upkeep or a disenchant to force you to give it back.

It's used to remove blockers (or attackers) and next turn add much more power to your attack. It also jacks cards like Terravore which sometimes act as giant walls. With a few weenies and a terravore swinging in, your opponent needs an immediate answer.




Cons
1 Requires you to have an island (often not a problem)
2 Not a permanent solution
3 Almost never cast for its actual mana cost
4 UR dreadstill is immune to it
5 Not as powerful as actually grabbing the creature


Those cons are just hilarious. What the hell? 1) Requires you to have an Island? SO DO THE OTHER ONES!

Not a permanent solution (it often is if your opponent puts a shuffle effect on the stack)

Almost never cast for its actual mana cost? HOW IS THAT A DRAWBACK? It has an alternate CC for a reason, it's like dissing fireblast or Force of Will. I'd say it's actually a pro that it costs 0 all the time.

UR Dreadstill is immune to it. Uh, UR Dreadstill is also immune to Mind Harness, but you didn't mention that. Also, UW dreadstill is immune.

Not as powerful as actually grabbing the creature? What the hell, how is that the LAST con you mention. The other two cards are fundamentally 2:1 trades, Submerge is like a 1:1 trade with a tempo bump.


Totally different cards.

[georgjorge]

Mind Harness doesn't target enough creatures to even be worth considering playing. It misses Tombstalker, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Dark Confidant, Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Exalted Angel, Nimble Mongoose, Gigapede, Morphling, Mishra's Factory, Mutavault and just about any normally janky creature that a rogue deck might throw in your face suddenly and make you answer.

[...]

Threads of Disloyalty is the possibility that might have some validity in today's Legacy environment. It only critically misses as early removal on Tombstalker and it's additional midgame vulnerability is mainly to creatures who can be recurred and to manlands. As a 3cc spell it also has some value with Counterbalance alongside it's value with FoW.

How is Threads better than Harness when 10 of the 12 creatures you mentioned can't be targeted by it either ?



I think one of the larger problems hitting Legacy right now is that deck building has moved away dealing with creatures. I mean a good tuned deck that realizes most decks only run between 8-12 threats could easily run the the tables. Having MD answers allow you to put stuff in the board that's going to increase your match up chance, not push it up to where it ought to be in the first place.

Landstill and Rock are still DTB, so some people seem to have realized it :wink: .

[FoolofaTook]

How is Threads better than Harness when 10 of the 12 creatures you mentioned can't be targeted by it either ?

Because it can target Phyrexian Dreadnought and Dark Confidant, both potentially back-breaking cards early on and because it doesn't have a continuing maintenance requirement that forces your hand if it's used early in the game.

The point about Mind Harness was that there are a large number of commonly used creatures in the meta that it does not address at all and so it's relative cheapness is really not a major factor in it's value.

[mercenarybdu]

Can you do them all on similar cards next time? You make no sense of what you are trying to get at here other than having a hard time deciding what to stick in your deck over all these options....

[georgjorge]

Because it can target Phyrexian Dreadnought and Dark Confidant, both potentially back-breaking cards early on and because it doesn't have a continuing maintenance requirement that forces your hand if it's used early in the game.

I'm aware of that, it's just that you stated it as a disadvantage for Harness that it couldn't take any of 12 creatures, and Threads can't take 10 of those either, so you might just cut those 12 down to 2 if you want to compare Harness and Threads.

[jazzykat]

Can you do them all on similar cards next time? You make no sense of what you are trying to get at here other than having a hard time deciding what to stick in your deck over all these options....

Actually, I am not going to play any of them. These cards seemed like the best non-STP ways to deal with a tarmogoyf sans smother and I wondered what everyone else thought. Apparently the consensus is that these cards are too different from each other to be compared. If you wanted to frame the question: What are playable blue answers to a resolved tarmogoyf?

@Forbiddian: Your tone is antagonistic and I doubt you would speak like that to someone in real life.

One niggling point, the other cards require you to have blue mana to pay the casting cost, submerge requires you to have an island. Sort of like in the situation of having a faerie conclave out but not having an island, where you can play Force Spike but not Daze.

@A mod: Please lock this, it is only serving as troll bait.