[Discussion] Why isn't Red being played more than it is?

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Now, I've been out of the Legacy loop for a while now, but looking over the decks considered to be top contenders in the Legacy metagame, one question has been on my mind: Why isn't Red being played more?

With basically every top deck being relying on nonbasics and containing a host of blue cards, a Red deck containing Blood Moon effects and REBs/Pyroblasts seems to me like it would be ideal. Plus, Red brings with it a host of creature kill, mana denial, and relatively strong yet undercosted creatures. Other than Dragon Stompy, which I admittedly have almost no experience with, I don't really see any decks trying to capitalize on these strengths.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Red had bad creature removal, slow mana denial, and its only good cretaures are gobins. Red just isn't good outside of Blood Moon.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9639/tarmogoyfzt4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[KrzyMoose]

Why isn't Red being played more?

Because no Red deck starts with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder.

But in all seriousness, there are very few (good) mono-Colored decks in Legacy. So, that just leaves Red to be played as a secondary or tertiary color. However, other colors simply trump Red in those roles. Red for Creatures? Play Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker/Phyrexian Dreadnought instead. Red for removal? Play White or Black instead. Red for Land destruction? Play Black instead.

UGr Threshold and Ur/Ugr Dreadstill are pretty good, however. So, Red definitely gets its fair share of play.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well, Aggro-Loam, Goblins, Survival and Combo often play a fair bit of red, and I think people still play Dragon Stompy.

[Pulp_Fiction]

The main reason, people are afraid to play a deck that might be condisered "risky" or out of thei comfort zone. Here is the common person's logic when going to a tournament "I am not sure what to expect, I will play it safe and bring U/W/x Landstill since it has good matchups all across the board." Or "Thresh is good, I feel comfortable with it and feel it a safe choice."

The closest thing red has to being a serious contender in the tournament scene is Dragon Stompy (mulligans like shit which is why I don't play it), Goblins (which randomly lose to Pyroclasm and Plague effects), and Aggro Loam (I'm not sure why this isn't played more cause its one of the 3 best decks in the format).

It is very upsetting that R/G/w Zoo isn't played very often. The deck is so much better than Goblins and has solid matchups against anything but combo and Eternal Garden/Lands! variants.

But to answer the question fully, it because most people are afraid to run decks that don't have Force of Will in them. A lot of people think having FoW greatly helps your combo matchup which is not true, Stifle and Counterbalance help your combo matchup. As a combo player I would much rather run into FoW and Daze than Counterbalance and Stifle effects (all of the above would be pretty though in the same deck). Duress and Chant just own those cards where as Counterbalance just owns combo. Red is usually just considered the least consistent color, which is true and isn't; Thresh can stall out as well. Really it isn't played because red isn't a "safer" color when going into a tournament setting.

[Captain Hammer]

For a noncombo deck to work it has to at minimum have access to both great threats and great answers. That's why the best decks aren't monocolor anymore. With a few exceptions like goblins and fairie stompy, you need to go to multiple colors to get access to great threats and answers.

So which colors should a deck go for, let's look at what each color brings to the table..

White is where you go for the best answers, StP, Oblivion Ring and if you're playing black too, Vindicate.

Green offers the fantastic threat that is Tarmogoyf (and Mongoose too) and a powerful answer in Krosan Grip.

Black offers another fantastic threat in Tombstalker as well as incredibly powerful discard, great answers in Snuff Out and increasingly Diabolic Edict, as well as Sinkhole and Dark Ritual both of which offer really strong tempo.

Blue is a great foundation color, often having to splash to get access to threats or answers to resolved threats, but offering tons of card draw and card selection, tempo cards like Daze and Stifle and the all in one back up plan that is Force of Will. And nowadays, it has a solid threat in Dreadnought as well.

Due to the card draw and card selection alone, blue is the glue that holds the other colors together. It has to pair up with either white for answers and green for Goyf. Or it can pair up with black for both answers (Snuff Out) and threats (Tombstalker). Or it can do some other variation.

But what does red bring to the table. Lightning Bolt used to be a good answer, but now three damage doesn't qualify as removal. It doesn't offer counters, decent threats, discard, accleration, tempo, card draw, and now that Bolt no longer works as removal, it doesn't offer that either. The only good disruption that red offers, Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon, isn't exactly splashable. That's why fewer and fewer decks splash for red anymore.

Obviously, there's exceptions, tribal decks like goblins, elves, fairies, as well as fairie stompy and dragon stompy are built with many internal synergies to get around the above rules.

But generally, this is what legacy has become.

[Jak]

Red can easily be played in an awesome deck, its just, like Pulp Fiction said, people are afraid to play decks that lose to combo. I really can't blame them because combo is being hyped so much right now (as in everyone talking about ADN) and it is putting up results. People should be scared of the deck. I am positive a deck that just flat out loses to combo but can do well against everything else would put up results (it would have red in it of course). Moons, Tops, Burning Wishes, and most likely a splash to get some better threats would be a good deck.

[Captain Hammer]

Yes a deck with red in it could do well.

But it would have to splash both for good threats AND for good answers because red has neither. That's the problem.

And that deck already exists. It's called Zoo, it splashes white for good answers and green for better threats.

P.S: Yes, lightning bolt is technically an answer but it's a pretty suboptimal one these days. The only time it works is if you're willing to take a 2 for 1 trade to take out the threat.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Red can easily be played in an awesome deck, its just, like Pulp Fiction said, people are afraid to play decks that lose to combo. I really can't blame them because combo is being hyped so much right now (as in everyone talking about ADN) and it is putting up results. People should be scared of the deck. I am positive a deck that just flat out loses to combo but can do well against everything else would put up results (it would have red in it of course). Moons, Tops, Burning Wishes, and most likely a splash to get some better threats would be a good deck.

I'm definitely thinking that some sort of Mono-Red Control shell would rape in non-Combo oriented metagames. You sort of read my mind with this post.

EDIT: Actually, nix that. It would probably have to be some Mono-Red Stax variant.

[georgjorge]

Mono-Red Control...for real ? That might suffer from a lack of good creature removal, and I don't think artifacts offer so much there. Card draw could also be an issue, and I don't see much reason to stay mono-colored.

But yes, IBA already listed decks that are played and have red. Add Red Thresh, which I think is the most common Thresh variant (including Canadian Thresh, Swan Thresh, and red Balanced Thresh), Imperial Painter, Goyf Sligh, and Zoo, and it doesn't seem that underplayed anymore. It's true that there are less decks which have red as their primary color than those that have blue, but the same is true for the other three colors, so it's not about the weakness of red but the dominance of blue (which I don't think is such a bad thing as long as it's still possible to play competitive decks without countermagic etc).

Primarily white decks are only Geddonstax, Angel Stompy, Quinn.

Primarily green decks are only Survival, Elves.

Primarily black decks are only Eva Green, Train Wreck.

[Jak]

Yes a deck with red in it could do well.

But it would have to splash both for good threats AND for good answers because red has neither. That's the problem.

And that deck already exists. It's called Zoo, it splashes white for good answers and green for better threats.

P.S: Yes, lightning bolt is technically an answer but it's a pretty suboptimal one these days. The only time it works is if you're willing to take a 2 for 1 trade to take out the threat.

Red doesn't have horrible threats. I think you are being narrow minded thinking the only decks that can survive need to have Goyf, Stalker or Dreadnought.

There is Demigod, Arc Slogger, Magus of the Moon, Akroma, etc that would all do well in a control type shell. Red would probably need to splash but in Legacy most decks need to do this anyway to stay competative. Splashing White, Black or even green won't hurt the deck but help and splashing that color doesn't mean Red is weak. All colors need support.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Red is a fantastic support color, but has little in the way of game breaking threats outside of Blood Moon and Goblins. Lack of answers to Tarmogoyf sure don't help either.

[GreenOne]

Red is a fantastic support color, but has little in the way of game breaking threats outside of Blood Moon and Goblins. Lack of answers to Tarmogoyf sure don't help either.
I guess a 3cc answer like Spitebellows isn't enough.
I think red is a good color for aggro decks and quite good for aggro-control and combo decks.

In aggro decks it offers Burn, Blood Moon/Magus, Spirit Guide, Lavamancer, Mogg Fanatic, Countryside Crusher and the entire Goblin deck.

In aggro-control decks it offers Burn and Fire/ice.

In combo decks it offers quite a lot of things, having SSG, Burning Wish, Empty the warrens, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Manamorphose, Desperate Ritual, Shattering Spree, Grapeshot, Goblin Welder, Anger, Gamble, etc.

However, red lacks good control cards, like a good board sweeper (it doesn't even have access to, say, Pernicious deed-like effects if non-artifact), finishers with a good power/cc and cards that make card selection/advantage. In fact, control decks are not playing red (beside Dreadstill, that's playing red just for SB: blasts and pyroclasm).

As we can see, 3 of the 11 decks in the DTB forum are splashing or playing red as one of the main colors (Goblins, Aggro Loam, UGr Thresh).
In the first page of the Established decks, out of 20 decks 8 are running red (main color: Imperial Painter, Dragon Stompy, Burn, Boros, Splash: Survival, Aluren, TMT, Enchantress).

I don't believe that red is actually underplayed. Sure, in the past goblin was as dominant as ever, and red was more widely played (also due to a good answer to goblins in Pyroclasm). Now It's blue's turn, and blue decks are everywhere (8 out of 11 decks in the DTB forum. And blue is always more than a little splash..). So the real question is, why are blue decks everywhere and the other color are (comparatively) underplayed?

That said, as a combo player, it would be great to see more red decks at the other side of the table.

[Gheizen64]

Already said but:

Red doesn't anwser the two most played creature in legacy
Red is mediocre against combo (barring spellshock-pyrostatic pillar)
Red creature can't do anything against the top two creature in legacy

This is a format where lightning bolt is hardly playable outside of pure burn deck. And that's a shame, damn stupid stupid stupid tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. And now nyxathid is another creature that take red decks and kick them in the ass.

edit: actually, if PtE start to be widely played in conjunction to StP as answer to the "4-12 threat.dec" like dreadstill or team america, mono red could be viable again, with cheap weenies, pumpable ones (figure), and pro-white knight (blood knight). Or maybe not. Probably not. And most of all, i don't think PtE will playable in legacy, even if i tested it and it was much better than i thought (at least in extended).

[FoolofaTook]

Green cards that are easily splashed and powerful: Targmogoyf, Krosan Grip, Survival of the Fittest, Life from the Loam.

Blue cards that are easily splashed and powerful: Brainstorm, Intuition, Stifle/Trickbind.

Black cards that are easily splashed and powerful: Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Duress.

White cards that are easily splashed and powerful: Swords to Plowshares, Orim's Chant.

Red cards that are easily splashed and powerful: ?

Burning Wish splashes into a few decks that can get up RR. Blood Moon isn't really a splash card, because of the conundrum posed by how to splash in a color denying card in a multicolor deck, although there are a few decks trying to splash in moon effects now. What cards are worth splashing red for at this point other than Engineered Explosives which can be splashed for in many different ways?

When you look at the multi-color spells that get played red is kind of on the short end of the stick also. What multi-color spells that include red are really worth building a deck just to play in the way that Pernicious Deed is?

Red is weakest right now because it's just way behind the power curve in too many different areas for it to emerge as anything but a highly dedicated theme that tries to overpower the opponent early. That makes Goblins, Dragon Stompy and Burn the most dangerous red decks and none of them are worldbeaters at this point.

[bowvamp]

IMHO red is not a splash color, yet it can have other colors splashed onto it. Look at Aggro Loam and Goblins, they both have splashed nearly every single color there is (well not blue for aggro loam) and they are both total houses. Goblins is probably one of the 3 most powerful aggro decks in Legacy right now (not aggro control). Aggro Loam is imho one of the top 3 best decks in legacy right now.

[Omega]

Agreed with everything said. Red is not easily splashable.
In the old days, when Goblin was owning the format, Red was actually a very good splash. Pyroclasm!
Nowadays, there isnt any fast aggro to worry about (Although elves has an amazing match against most aggro-control)

Red has Red Elemental Blast, which are decent cards against blue based deck. However, to run the REB, you need to be running blue. Otherwise, theres no point in playing some counterspell if your deck is not control... Unless you are combo, of course

Red has magus of the moon. Unfortunately, since red is rarely the main color of a deck, decks that want to play red have to splash a second, third color. But because of the "splashness" of the decks, these decks have to run tons of non-basic land to stabilize manabase. Thus, Magus of the Moon will actually hurt the deck mort than it will help it. moontres.h seems to work sometimes.

Red lacks good removal. It has been said earlier, but beside green, red has nothing to kill tarmogoyf (Green, to a certain extent has tarmogoyf to stop tarmogoyf!).

Burn is a deck that can win against tier 1 decks when not prepared, or when they are lucky. Its one of the mono colored deck, along stompies, that can perform decently at a tournament. Mono-Color decks are strictly inferior to multicolor deck in my opinion (at least, results prove me to be right).

Robert

[Eatatjoes]

Red has no mid/lategame. Its used as a support color. Its always been the all-in color, and it looks like R&D wants to keep it like that.

[raharu]

Red has no mid/lategame. Its used as a support color. Its always been the all-in color, and it looks like R&D wants to keep it like that.
Mono-red Staxxx, Extended 'Ring of Fire' control, and Wildfire would like to have a word with you.

[bowvamp]

Actually, I just thought of a couple cards that do splash well:
Burning Wish
Firestorm
Anger (in survival)
Ancient Grudge
Grapeshot (for anything stormy)
Hull Breach
Pyroclasm
Recoup (once again thinking stormy)
Cave-In

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Burning Wish
Decks that can play Burning Wish typically do. However, Wish is slow, so there are few.
FirestormFew decks can cope with the card disadvantage needed for this to be useful. There would need to be several creatures, none of which can be Mongoose, to take out Tarmogoyf.
PyroclasmBad in this format, like Cave-in.

[FoolofaTook]

Actually, I just thought of a couple cards that do splash well:
Burning Wish
Firestorm
Anger (in survival)
Ancient Grudge
Grapeshot (for anything stormy)
Hull Breach
Pyroclasm
Recoup (once again thinking stormy)
Cave-In

Very few of these cards are actually splashed for though. Anger requires mountains of some sort in the build so if a Survival deck is playing red for some other reason then it also likely includes Anger, otherwise the effect that it produces is not worth the additional vulnerability caused by including Taiga in the mix. Grapeshot is included in a few Storm decks but generally not unless they are also playing Burning Wish and/or Empty the Warrens. Hull Breach definitely is not splashed for, as Krosan Grip is just strictly a better spell in most situations. Pyroclasm is used sometimes in the sideboard of decks that already include red in the manabase for other reasons, but it's not a reason to splash red any more. The other cards listed just aren't used in Legacy outside of one or two rarely played decks.

[Giles]

I was writing a semi good thing about red having a identity crisis. In that I made a list of red gets; I concluded that red gets: removal, aggressiveness and big dangerous things.
And IBA already did my punch-line, of the trump of red.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9639/tarmogoyfzt4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[grahf]

Interesting thread, I had never really thought about this, but the problems facing red are well laid out. So then, what would some solutions be? What I'm hearing is, better disruption and bigger creatures. Seeing better burn printed seems unlikely, given that WotC considers Lightning Bolt above the acceptable power curve for Constructed.

Is it possible that red's "shoot first, ask questions later" philosophy is too narrow-minded to accommodate the multiple modes of attack that modern Legacy decks employ? That's a rhetorical question, and I don't think it's necessarily true.

It occurs to me that red has seen more bounce and redirection type spells in recent sets. Sure, Shunt is not that good and Wild Ricochet is expensive, but what if Wizards printed straight up Misdirection in red? Then the red mage could simultaneously go on the attack while defending his/her spells.

[nitewolf9]

I wonder how many people went into this thread all excited to just post a picture of tarmogoyf, only to be completely shot down by Jack's post. I sure was disappointed myself.

[bowvamp]

I sure wasn't excited to SEE a pic of goyf these days. I hate it when legacy degenerates to a single 2 cc card destroying 1/5 of the color pie! Red still lies in our hearts as it was in the hayday of goblins...

[wolfstorm]

WTS Wheel of Fortune PST... Now wouldn't that make red a little more splashed lol.. On a more serious note, I believe red needs to have a decent supply of artifacts in order to make it work if mono colored, Like Tangle Wire, Ensnaring Bridge, Cursed Scroll etc...

[mercenarybdu]

Red has lost lots of power lately, which is why it is currently near the bottom, unless you are playing Red Sligh splashing Green for Krosan Grip and a possible set of Goyf.

Red has some good aggro removal, but not many people play with aggro anymore unless they are either getting started (for striaght aggro). Even if players play with aggro, they'll most likely be putting in some control elements to combat the field.

Like Green, it's usually splashed currently just for specific elements that the the main two don't have access to when it comes to being effective.

BTW not all decks could fit Goyf in. If someone claims that 9/10 decks has Goyf, fact check and tell them that they are wrong (Will, an employee from Eudemonia claimed that, and for the entire arguement i had with him about the format, he claimed I was lying).

[Media314r8]

But to answer the question fully, it because most people are afraid to run decks that don't have Force of Will in them. A lot of people think having FoW greatly helps your combo matchup which is not true, Stifle and Counterbalance help your combo matchup. As a combo player I would much rather run into FoW and Daze than Counterbalance and Stifle effects (all of the above would be pretty though in the same deck). Duress and Chant just own those cards where as Counterbalance just owns combo.

... one more time ...



A lot of people think having FoW greatly helps your combo matchup which is not true

As a combo player I would much rather run into FoW (and Daze) than (Counterbalance and) Stifle effects

Have you ever resolved an ad-nauseum as a combo player? There is literally about a 1% chance of your opponent's stifle being the slightest bit relevant aside from stifling a chrome mox imprint pre-AN. You have a hand of 10-30 cards post AN, which will likely contain discard and/or chant, which you will obviously cast while storming mana accel spells/arts before you tendrils for the kill, either negating or plucking that stifle from your opponent's hand. Force, on the other hand, can counter your engine before you draw the discard/protection from it. If combo has chant pre AN, either spell is fucked, and the opponent is losing, but force is clearly the superior card over stifle vs ANT.

Aside: CB + Top or often even blind vs combo is obviously hot sauce, but (QFT:) force of will is a good spell to have when you want to counter some important spell and have no mana open, but have a extra blue card in hand and can afford to pay 1 life. It can be hardcast for five mana too.

Running force of will is how you beat goblins and combo when on the draw. It is understandable that especially in the upper brackets of tournament play, you would want to have an out to 'dumb luck' turn one wins. Red offers no such card, thus the high selection rate of blue as a splash color.

/obvious

[GreenOne]

BTW not all decks could fit Goyf in. If someone claims that 9/10 decks has Goyf, fact check and tell them that they are wrong

Out of 40 decks (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9567) that Top8ed this month, 25 were running goyf, with only 1 tournament (Hadley 1/10/09) with less than 50% goyfs in top8, and 1 tournament (1/10/09 Badalona, Barcelona, Spain) with 7 decks with goyf in top8 (87,5%).

Yeah, it's not 90%, but it's 62,5% average, with metagame varying from 25% to 87,5%. True, it's an uncomplete statistic made on the spot with only this month in mind, but it's not that far from reality I do believe.
Just to understand the proportion of the phenomenon, FoW was played by 50% of the decks (20), so goyf has more shows in top8s than FoW this month.

I don't mean to make this another Goyf thread, just wanted to respond.

[Finn]

Well, so much for my latest article. Back to the drawing board.

Good discussion, nonetheless.

[Valdez]

Red cards that are easily splashed and powerful: ?
Bolt, Fire, Clasm/F.spout, Anger.

Btw. SPLASH green for SotF... LOL!

Bad in this format, like Cave-in.
Just 1 word: Meta.

I also want to second every word of GreenOne in this topic.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Just 1 word: Meta.Two damage is not enough to do anything relevant against most decks. In the DTB section, it's good against only Goblins, and marginally useful against Ichorid. It's unable to kill important creatures like Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, or Tombstalker, the most played threats in the format.

[Bryant Cook]

Red has a lot of presence in TES. The second best acceleration is red, not to mention the deck's best tutor is red - Burning Wish. Most of my Sideboard is red at the moment, 9 cards to be exact.

It all depends on how you look at red in each deck. While red's damage is weak nowadays, it's other elements are still strong.

[GreenOne]

The second best acceleration is red
Agree on anything, but red's got the third best acceleration :wink: :
1- LED
2- Dark Ritual
3- Rite of Flame
4- Cabal Ritual

[Isamaru]

I love when these threads come up every so often. "Why is White bad? Why is Green a splash color? Why is Blue so good?"

You will forever be confined to this as long as you think of cards as being "good" and "bad"... For once, try designing a deck with some purpose and creativity, and suddenly the "color pie" is not some profound topic.

[Valdez]

Two damage is not enough to do anything relevant against most decks. In the DTB section, it's good against only Goblins, and marginally useful against Ichorid. It's unable to kill important creatures like Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, or Tombstalker, the most played threats in the format.
Who cares bout the DTB section..? "Lies, damned lies, and statistics." :wink:
It simply depends on your metagame, if it is "good" or not.
Its btw. also useful vs. all other tribal decks like Elves (i.e. of Vanquisher), Merfolk and Faeries, and even vs. Belcher and TES.

[Bryant Cook]

Who cares bout the DTB section..? "Lies, damned lies, and statistics." :wink:
It simply depends on your metagame, if it is "good" or not.
Its btw. also useful vs. all other tribal decks like Elves (i.e. of Vanquisher), Merfolk and Faeries, and even vs. Belcher and TES.

Have you played against elves or merfolk? They both run 8 lords, 2 damage is nothing. As for combo, it rarely casts ETW anymore.

[Valdez]

I have played vs. Survival Elves even before the glorious "Team EPIC" made it "their deck"...
Most lists that made t8 in Germany play "only" 6-7 lords.
Glimpse-Combo lists play 0 lords.

Its true, that Clasm is bad if you play 46 Lands and 4 Clasms.
But if you play Canadian Thresh for example with burn and counterspells, Clasm may be a valid sb choice, even vs. 8 lords..

Look, I'm not saying, that Clasm is the ultimate SB card, I just wanted to point out, that is depends to the Meta how good a card is.

[Mirrislegend]

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9639/tarmogoyfzt4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Sums it up rather nicely. It's sad but true. As much as I love red, it's very difficult to justify playing it when it struggles to answer the single most played card in the format.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Sums it up rather nicely. It's sad but true. As much as I love red, it's very difficult to justify playing it when it struggles to answer the single most played card in the format.

Sigh...

Just another reason for me to pray that Wizards bans Tarmogoyf one day, despite not being a broken card.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Sigh...

Just another reason for me to pray that Wizards bans Tarmogoyf one day, despite not being a broken card.

That is the most rediculous thing I have ever read in my life. Putting the words "broken" and "Tarmogoyf" in the same sentence is like saying "straight" and "Ryan Seacrest" in the same sentence. It doesn't make any damn sense.

I bought a set of goyfs. I'm now looking to trade them as they were entirely underwelming and frankly are rarely better than a watchwolf. They are also one of the last cards I ever want banned as they suck. Flame me or whatever, but they are overhyped. I'm not saying they aren't playworthy, but they certainly aren't worth 22 bux. Hell, I'd pay way more for a Tendrils of Agony than I would for a Goyf.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Sigh...

Just another reason for me to pray that Wizards bans Tarmogoyf one day, despite not being a broken card.

That is the most rediculous thing I have ever read in my life. Putting the words "broken" and "Tarmogoyf" in the same sentence is like saying "straight" and "Ryan Seacrest" in the same sentence. It doesn't make any damn sense.

[GreenOne]

Just another reason for me to pray that Wizards bans Tarmogoyf one day, despite not being a broken card.

Putting the words "broken" and "Tarmogoyf" in the same sentence [...] doesn't make any damn sense.

I don't get it. Also, double post.

[Dark_Cynic87]

yeah, my internet is fail. Also, misread his post. Goyf isn't a reason not to play red. Burn can absolutely race it. Also, I hear Taiga is tech to run goyf alongside red. UGr Thrash, AggroLoam and Goyf Sligh all seem to agree with me.

how about we not use homosexual adjectives in a derogatory manner. verbal warning---frogboy

[Charlatan]

Well.
Red is present in several good decks, and can be:

TECH:
Devastating Dreams (Loam would be half competitive with out it)
Burning Wish (Loam again & Combo decks)
Pyroclasm (A kind of tempo card, but depends on the situation)
...

BUUUURN:
Bolt (dmg)
chain (dmg)
Rift Bolt (dmg)
Price of Progress (Dear god, I hate this one)
Magma Jet (Manipulate your deck)
Seismic Assault (underated card that now are having your space)
...

Aggro
Countryside Crusher (Man, this guy eats goyf and whatever, pump like hell)
Gobbos (kind of static deck, but has shown some variants)
...

I`m out fo time, i could choose more.
Just more one thing, a time ago I`ve read an artivle about Team America that says how Tombstalker is been discovered by players now. So, I think that is a question of time. And this forum is all about this. Every day, players brainstorming new decks, new techs...

Nourishing Lich FTW

red text is reserved for the reds. also the browns. don't use it---frogboy

[Maveric78f]

That's funny because my reaction would be to ask why is red so much played although it's a weak colour?

Weak because it does not have anything of these :
1/ combo protection
2/ efficient creatures (except for the gobs)
3/ card advantage (we could even say that red's strategy is based on card disadvantage)
4/ efficient removal (except for artifacts and lands)

Black has 2/, 3/ and 4/ (only for creatures and lands)
Blue has 1/ and 3/
White has 1/, 2/ and 4/
Green has 2/ and 4/ (except for creatures)

The burn spells are the only reason to play R according to me, with burn or Tarmosligh. Apart from this, it should remain a splash.

[Skeggi]

I'm just taking a quick look at what are the decks in the DTB forum and what colors they use:

Decks:
UGw Thresh -- UGW
UGr Thresh -- UGR
Vial Goblins -- R (G,B,W splashes)
UW(x) Landstill -- UW, and x is anything but R, so G/B
Dreadstill -- UR and UGR
The Rock -- BWG
Aggro Loam -- BGR
Team America -- BUG
ANT -- BUWR
U/b/g/w and U/b/g landstill -- UBGW or UBG
UGb Threshold -- UBG

So the count comes down to:

Green: 10
Blue: 8
Black: 8
White: 6
Red: 5

Since Green has Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip it's easy to see why Green is used in 10 (out of 11) decks in the DTB forum. In fact, if ANT plays Xantid Swarm, it's in all the decks.

Red is used a bit less than the rest, but the difference isn't that great. Red's biggest power comes from Blood Moon effects. This automatically means it's not an easy splash. So, since it's not an easy splash, and still played in 5 decks, I'd say it's doing pretty good under circumstances.

[Dark_Cynic87]

ANT players sometimes use Krosan Grip in the Boards. TES is normally the combo list that runs Xantid Swarms. Green is the most prevalent, which is kinda freakin' me out...

[GreenOne]

Red is used a bit less than the rest, but the difference isn't that great. Red's biggest power comes from Blood Moon effects. This automatically means it's not an easy splash. So, since it's not an easy splash, and still played in 5 decks, I'd say it's doing pretty good under circumstances.
Your sentence contraddicts your data. Why Red's biggest power is coming from blood moon effects if there's literally zero Blood Moons (well, maybe some Aggro-Loam are packing a couple) in the decks to beat?

Also, we should note that in those decks, Dreadstill uses red only for SB cards, and the majority of ANT decks don't play red.

[Skeggi]

Your sentence contraddicts your data. Why Red's biggest power is coming from blood moon effects if there's literally zero Blood Moons (well, maybe some Aggro-Loam are packing a couple) in the decks to beat?
UGr Thresh would like to have a word with you. I haven't seen Blood Moons in any Aggro Loam list by the way. But okay, not alot of Blood Moons are being played, although it's one of red's strongest cards. It legitimizes Imperial Painter and Dragon Stompy.


Also, we should note that in those decks, Dreadstill uses red only for SB cards, and the majority of ANT decks don't play red.
ANT without Burning Wish? Isn't that just awful?

[Bahamuth]

ANT without Burning Wish? Isn't that just awful?

The definition of ANT is a storm combo deck with Fetchland and Duals (and Mystical Tutor). Barely any ANT list plays Wish. In fact, I can't think of a good list you can call ANT and that runs Wish.

[GreenOne]

But okay, not alot of Blood Moons are being played, although it's one of red's strongest cards. It legitimizes Imperial Painter and Dragon Stompy.
The 2 decks together took 2 top8 showings out of 20 tournaments in december, finishing both 6th. Echantress alone took 3.

If Blood Moon is currently a good card (is a card which power can vary a lot, depending on metagame), then seems it's not worth the red commitment.

[Skeggi]

Well, incidentally, Ur Dreadstill with 2 Blood Moons in the sideboard won the 156-player tournament in Utrecht, The Netherlands.
Clicky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311051&postcount=41)


The definition of ANT is a storm combo deck with Fetchland and Duals (and Mystical Tutor). Barely any ANT list plays Wish. In fact, I can't think of a good list you can call ANT and that runs Wish.
Fine, ETW is used by some ANT lists :tongue:.

[Dark_Cynic87]

ANT uses red for Pyroblasts and Ancient Grudges in the sideboard. The versions that do this drop out Chants and etc. in favor of red for optimization in a heavy blue meta-game.

Pce,

--DC

[emidln]

The power of red directly relates to the overpowered effects that blue has. I'm talking about Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast, the sideboard solutions that the blue decks splash for to fight themselves. Further, due to the overpowering presence blue has, swarming aggro that can overtake blue-based decks are hosed by effects such as Fire/Ice, Pyroclasm, Firespout, and Rolling Earthquake that frequently get splashed into maindecks and sideboards by blue players looking to capitalize on their favorite color's power. Even effects like Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon are simply hate for blue's overarching ability (due to fetches, duals, and the three best optimization spells ever (Brainstorm, Ponder, and Sensei's Divining Top)) to fill their gaps with whatever they feel (Creature removal? splash Tundra and Swords to Plowshares. Targetted discard? Have Thoughtseize or Duress. Need a win condition? Tarmogoyf + Tropical Island gets you there.) like while still retaining a high level of consistency. Even Ancient Grudge and Shattering Spree have become popular due to the Chalice of the Voids that blue's ability to abuse cheap cantrips (and the cantrips combining power to let the blue decks splash for cheap solutions in any color) has inflicted on the metagame.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Magus, PoP, Moon.

Red is a good color to splash because it punishes people for running multiple colors.

(?)

[frogboy]

Armageddon is a good card to play because it punishes people for playing land?

[Skeggi]

Armageddon is a good card to play because it punishes people for playing land?

Uhm...ya, actually it is. But same problem with PoP and Moon effects; not everyone splashes a color, and not everyone needs (alot of) land and some decks simply recover pretty fast after an Armageddon.

[FoolofaTook]

Uhm...ya, actually it is. But same problem with PoP and Moon effects; not everyone splashes a color, and not everyone needs (alot of) land and some decks simply recover pretty fast after an Armageddon.

I think that was his point.

Red is underwhelming at the moment because it has so little utility to add to most decks that might splash a color to get an effect into play. The Ur Dreadstill is a huge outlier because it's effectively a mono-blue aggro-control deck that plays a second color for Engineered Explosives and that really wants fetchlands in the mix. Having made that commitment for the purpose of getting a tutorable 2cmc sweeper in the deck it has the latitude to be a bit more selective in terms of what the second color is than most decks do.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Who cares bout the DTB section..? "Lies, damned lies, and statistics." :wink:
It simply depends on your metagame, if it is "good" or not.I'm talking about Legacy. The DtB section is picture of what can generally be expected from a meta. What in meta would Pyroclasm be better then Engineered Explosives?

I have played vs. Survival Elves even before the glorious "Team EPIC" made it "their deck"...That's irrelevant and borderline inflammatory against Team EPIC.

Most lists that made t8 in Germany play "only" 6-7 lords.It only takes one to obsolete Pyroclasm.

Glimpse-Combo lists play 0 lords.Explosives, Chalice, Daze, and good decks are better against that deck the Pyroclasm.

Its true, that Clasm is bad if you play 46 Lands and 4 Clasms.That's not what anyone is saying at all.

But if you play Canadian Thresh for example with burn and counterspells, Clasm may be a valid sb choice, even vs. 8 lords..Why? Why would any Thresh dedicate precious sideboard space to an already good match up?

Look, I'm not saying, that Clasm is the ultimate SB card, I just wanted to point out, that is depends to the Meta how good a card is.The 'ultimate SB card' that's only good aginst tribal, except when it isn't?

[KillemallCFH]

It only takes one to obsolete Pyroclasm.Actually, it takes 2. Unless there are some X/3 lords no one is telling me about (and no, Zombie Master doesn't count), one 'Clasm will wipe a board of 2/2 Lord + X/2 and X/1 dudes.

[loop]

It only takes one to obsolete Pyroclasm.
Well actually you'd need 2, since the lords are 2/2 and don't pump themselves... the lord will die to clasm and then the others will die, too.
Edit: k, too slow :)

[Sanguine Voyeur]

That's true, my bad. However, the chance of drawing two in a deck with up to 8 is somewhat high.

[Skeggi]

That's true, my bad. However, the chance of drawing two in a deck with up to 8 is somewhat high.
There's a difference between drawing and actually having played.

[memnarch]

Circle of Protection Red.

[Mordel]

Sphere of law>CoP:R if you can support it imo.