[Deck] Death Cloud Rock/Loam Control

[e=mc^2]

Over the past couple weeks I have been working on the following deck list:

3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Barren Moor
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's SH
5 Swamp
4 Forest

4 Finks (awesome w/ Smallpox/Cloud/chump blocking)
4 STE (mana fixing and buys time against Goyf)
3 Terravore (Wins games quickly, but may be unnecessary)
2 E Witness

4 LFTL
3 Death Cloud (They generally lose more creatures than you do and it wrecks their hand)
3 Raven's Crime (Empties hands early)
1 Worm's Harvest (Win Condition)
4 Diabolic Edict (May switch some for Smallpox)
2 Smallpox (See Death Cloud)
4 Pernicious Deed

S.B.
2 Crypt
3 Choke
3 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip

The Deck Has Beaten:
Elf Stompy
4c Threshold
Tombstone
Team America (But lost once)
UBg Good Stuff

The deck has problems with:
TES

I have played three matches against TES and I have only won one game. Even if I can empty their hand early they can still win with Ill-Gotten Gains off the top, so I neet to be lucky with this one. Any tips on Improving this MU would Be great.

I would Also Appreciate any advise or comments on the list.

[bowvamp]

Advice eh? Ok, stop trying to be like a LftL deck. Either join em or beat em, but don't randomly play their cards. Check out some legacy The Rock.dec lists on deckcheck.net if you need any ideas. I am wondering why you run smallpox alongside deathcloud. If one needs the mana to blow up in the opponents face with a huge deathcloud why do you play smallpox. Replace those with Sinkholes.

[e=mc^2]

I love Loam. It sift through your deck with cycling lands, and help you recover from Death Cloud faster than your opponent. It also makes Raven's Crime even more awesome.

As for Sinkhole, it seems like a better idea than Smallpox.

[bowvamp]

Ok, keep loam if you like. Just at least play tarmogoyf! Too much green, too little goyf.

[DeathwingZERO]

With the Loam engine, and the fact that this deck isn't aggro control, I'd highly suggest running Tombstalker instead of running Goyf, if you are going to go for either. Chances are you'll be filling your yard rather quick, and two flying 5/5's beats ground stalemates any day.

I would also keep the Smallpox, as Sinkhole is too narrow. You are already going to make the card heavily one sided, being able to recur creatures killed or discarded, and you have plenty of land destruction already.

I'd probably suggest:

-1 Deed
-1 Terravore
-4 Finks

+3 Tombstalker
+1 Smallpox
+1 Witness

Finks is nice, but having more disruption from Smallpox and the ability to recur it via Stronghold + 4 Witness is awesome.

Tombstalker can probably easily seal the deal on it's own in the late game, and work fine in conjunction with Terravore, that's 5 stable win conditions with an active Loam engine, and they are still good without.

[bowvamp]

As he only has 12 sources of black mana in the MD, I can imagine a 1G unconditional spell to be cast more than a conditional BB spell. That is why I suggested Goyf. Sinkhole grants a tempo advantage that smallpox does not. This deck simply will run too many huge threats for Smallpox to work efficiently and will often end in suboptimal situations. Tombstalker DOES NOT work fine with Terravore! 6 cards out of the GY will probably mean at least 2 lands and with a goyf those would still be in there.

[DeathwingZERO]

As he only has 12 sources of black mana in the MD, I can imagine a 1G unconditional spell to be cast more than a conditional BB spell. That is why I suggested Goyf.

His threats are meant to be dropped at the end game, the other creatures are purely utility. Goyf fits into neither of these strategies, and frankly does nothing to his assault plan.

Also, saying there's only 12 black sources is an understatement, as there's fetchlands, STE, Witness, and Loam to balance the color requirements. I fail to see needing access to BB early and late game being an issue.

As for Smallpox, it is almost never situational in a build like this. Even if it misses one of it's hits (which will be either a discard or a creature removal), it's still doing it's job: filling the yard and preventing the opponent from gaining ground.


Sinkhole grants a tempo advantage that smallpox does not.

Whereas Sinkhole is nothing more than an LD spell, and Smallpox functions as removal, discard, and LD. Already having recurring Wastelands as well as Death Cloud is more than enough LD to cover gaining ground.

Add in that it's got Loam, as well as STE, it's got plenty of potential for tempo already, as well. The opponent isn't always dropping a land a turn, while Loam can say just the opposite here.


This deck simply will run too many huge threats for Smallpox to work efficiently and will often end in suboptimal situations.

I don't consider 5 threats with an average cc of 3 to be "heavy". Since there's also alternate win cons, one could even cut the numbers back to 4. Either way, they are going to be far more useful in the end game based on Smallpox being early removal and discard, not the other way around.


Tombstalker DOES NOT work fine with Terravore! 6 cards out of the GY will probably mean at least 2 lands and with a goyf those would still be in there.

This is assuming far too much of the game state.

First, Tombstalker does not have to be cast at BB, and since this deck has very few instant speed effects, it can afford to tap out to land a threat. I could easily seeing playing Stalker @ 4 or 5 mana and still being fine with it.

Second, Terravore counts all graveyards, and seeing as all of the land destruction is symmetrical, it's most definitely not going to care much about a possible -2/-2 if it's still swinging for 10+ with trample.

Another smaller benefit of Tombstalker over Goyf is it's resilience to Counterbalance as well as removal pinned at cheap CC creatures. It's very hard to flip an 8cc spell with CB, and it's not necessarily easy to set off Deed or Keg for 8 either.

[e=mc^2]

@ Tombstalker
This deck has so many ways to use the graveyard; Loam, Volrath's SH, E Witness, that I would not want to remove cards for Tombstalker. Also, Terravore has trample, so it can break through on the ground.

@ Goyf
I can see no reason to replace Terravore with Goyf. I have never cast a Terravore that would be smaller than a Goyf, and the one less mana in the casting cost irrelevant because I never cast Terravore early in the game.

@ Finks
Finks help to break the symmetry of Death Cloud and Smallpox. Also finks help me get into the mid/late game, which is what a control deck wants to do. In a pinch Finks can also finish the game.

[bowvamp]

@Tombstalker
If you "use" the graveyard already, why deplete it? All of the cards that you have mentioned want a healthy gy, so give it to them.

@Goyf
Goyf should not be seen as replacing terravore, it's replacing finks as an alternative to Tombstalker.

@Finks
They would be better if you had a more controlling strategy with Therapies and the like. Right now they just help when you cast your game winning spell. This is what I call "the danger of cool things". Your Clouds have tons of tiny interactions going on. So many that cutting the worst of all of them is acceptable. Playing the Rock is different than Loam Deathcloud Control. Also, what makes this deck better than say, 43lands.dec, Control Loam, or Eternal Garden?

[e=mc^2]

Also, what makes this deck better than say, 43lands.dec, Control Loam, or Eternal Garden?

People seem to love non-basic land hate these days and Eternal Garden and 43land.dec must wish for an answer if they can. Or they can just die to Price of Progress.

Control Loam Depends a lot more on Loam and the graveyard than this deck. I have won games with my loams Extirpated on turn 2 This deck doesn't need loam to win. It can just go board control like the Rock.

[Tao]

I think the deck needs at least 6 cycle lands because they are your main draw engine and you want to recur 2/Loam asap. I also think the deck should play Thoughtseize because otherwise it is too dependant on dredging into Raven's Crime.

You could cut Witnesses. Witness does not do much that the deck can't already do: it can recur Draw, Wastelands Discard and win conditions without Witness and Witness is really slow.

[Shabbaman]

Hey, if it works in extended it's worth a try! I was wondering why Death Cloud is better than Pox. Less life loss for you?

[e=mc^2]

Hey, if it works in extended it's worth a try! I was wondering why Death Cloud is better than Pox. Less life loss for you?

There is less life loss, but Death Cloud is also more controlable than Pox. Cloud can get rid of all of my opponents creatures. However this is just my reasoning. I haven't tested Pox.

Edit
@ Tao
Witness has not done much for me and Thoughtseize is almost the removal that witness would get back anyways, so I will try switching them this weekend.

[DeathwingZERO]

Don't run Pox. Pox is not a control card, it's an aggro card. Here's the key distinction between the decks:

-You have no acceleration to make an early game threat
-No non-creature creatures to activate
-Not playing the discard suite to back it

In other words, you have nothing to gain from it's casting. Smallpox works fine for a quick, short-term balance, that's all it's there for. Pox is there to one side your opponent, and push through damage with fast or artificial creatures. That's why it's so heavy on both land destruction and discard spells, it NEEDS to win asap, and does so by fast denial.

If you plan on cutting Witness, find a way to put in Tombstalker, seriously:

-With the exception of Loam, now all your instant and sorceries (and enchantments, I suppose) won't come back (and you are now adding more with Thoughtseize...bringing the total up to 16, not counting that you can afford to ditch "spare" Loams if you have them as well)
-You can afford to pitch STE/Finks in the late game to power out a better win condition (this brings the "stable" total of pitchable cards to 24, damn near half the deck)
-You'll have more than enough lands in both players yards to make up a slim loss to Vore (think 2-3 lands at most, if at all), and now have a flying 5/5 to make up for it
-Stalker doesn't need to drop @ BB, you can afford to pay more, you are a non-reactive control deck. What are you keeping that mana open for?

Is this really not enough to prove it's worth it? You are never going to be ditching 5-6 lands just to play the Stalker, and if you did, just ride Vore to victory if it's already out. If not, what good are those lands in the yard doing you now?

You can't dig for Vore without using Loam and Stronghold, and that requires at least a spare turn to topdeck it from the yard and draw. That's a turn you are giving the opponent to start stabilizing.

It takes a single mid/late game Death Cloud to make Vore larger than a Goyf, and counting discards from Death Cloud and Smallpox, cycling lands, and Loam recursion, chances are it'll be much bigger.

if you don't believe me, slip 2-3 in there, and playtest them. When you have what you believe to be the best time to drop it, write down the cards you had to pitch, and whether or not you even saw Vore by then (and what it cost it's P/T). Post those numbers here, or PM me if you like.

I highly doubt you're going to prove me wrong on this, though.

[e=mc^2]

If I am cutting Witnesses for Thoughtseizes then what should I cut for Tombstalker? If it is supposed to supplement Vore then those are staying. The best option would seem to be a removal card and a support creature.

[DeathwingZERO]

More than likely that is the correct call. I personally would be looking at a mixture of 2-3 cards from Deeds, Finks, and Edicts. Maybe cut 1 of each and just call it good there for a start.

I'm actually interested in this deck myself, if not just to have something fun to play every now and then. I'll see about getting this list proxied out and messing with it a bit myself, with the already opted Thoughtseize and Tombstalker changes.

[e=mc^2]

I'm glad to see someone else interested in the deck. I would love to hear about your playtesting. I only have the resources to play at the local shop on Sundays and the occasional big tournament.

[BlindMage]

This is interesting. I have a question, though: what does "STE" stand for?

[e=mc^2]

STE stands for Sakura-Tribe Elder

[BlindMage]

STE stands for Sakura-Tribe Elder

Man, I knew it was an acronym I used to use, I just couldn't put my finger on it! I haven't heard anything about STE for a while. That's kind of awesome.

Anyway, a couple things about this deck on first glance: First, there's a couple things that look weird to me, like 2-ofs ET, and Smallpox. Seems like if you play smallpox, you'd want 4. Is 2 ET really enough to see 1 a game? Do you need to see 1 a game? I've never tried this deck, but my instinct would be to play 3 to ensure I'll see one each game. Second: I'm willing to be that the Kitchen Finks haters have never played with the card. It's completely ridiculous. Think of it this way: whenever you play it, even if it is neutralized right away, you either get a mixture of tempo and card advantage, or a great deal of tempo. It of course lacks the brute force of Tarmogoyf, but is really on a similar level of power. IMO Finks is one of the more unappreciated cards in Magic.

[DeathwingZERO]

I really can't say that in a format of huge, evasive, or undercosted creatures that a 3cc that comes back (weaker) and splashes your life total is really going to gain much in the way of tempo.

The other problem I have with it is the necessity to have BB and GG available fast. The deck's core is black, the green splash serving solely as utility. The only cards that make sense as GG in casting because of this are Witness (recurs the black spells), and Terravore (the win condition), because they only take up 5 slots in the deck.

Yes, Finks is nice in that it can come back, and it can gain you 4 life in the meantime. But it's a 3cc spell that really just gains you a little life. It's not a clock like Terravore, and it's not utility like STE or Witness. I would argue Shambling Shell has just as much purpose in the deck because of it's ability to make your minor threats bigger, and functions as backup Loams for dredge purposes.

But even then, I probably wouldn't say to put it in.

[e=mc^2]

Man, I knew it was an acronym I used to use, I just couldn't put my finger on it! I haven't heard anything about STE for a while. That's kind of awesome.

Anyway, a couple things about this deck on first glance: First, there's a couple things that look weird to me, like 2-ofs ET, and Smallpox. Seems like if you play smallpox, you'd want 4. Is 2 ET really enough to see 1 a game? Do you need to see 1 a game? I've never tried this deck, but my instinct would be to play 3 to ensure I'll see one each game. Second: I'm willing to be that the Kitchen Finks haters have never played with the card. It's completely ridiculous. Think of it this way: whenever you play it, even if it is neutralized right away, you either get a mixture of tempo and card advantage, or a great deal of tempo. It of course lacks the brute force of Tarmogoyf, but is really on a similar level of power. IMO Finks is one of the more unappreciated cards in Magic.

First off I'm glad that someone else loves the Finks.

@ ET (Eternal Witness?)
I only wanted to see them in the games that go on for a while. Then they could be used to recur removal or threats. They weren't really that usefull, so I a trying additional discard in their place.

@Smallpox
I was trying them out to have some additional edict effects. Now some Diabolic Edicts might become Smallpox, or the Smallpox may become Chainer's Edicts.

[frogboy]

Goyf is really terrible in these decks because you play him as a wall against aggro on turn two and then they kill him because he's a Squire. Baloth is better.

Playing Tombstalker in your Death Cloud deck is wtf. So is Terravore. Your creatures should be guys that stave off death early because pretty much anything is good post-Cloud, and you have Harvest going long.

re: Harvest: Crypt and Extirpate are both very good against your deck. Consider adding Burning Wish.

Smallpoxing an aggro deck is completely and totally insane.

I might add a fetchland but I might not. I would probably cut a Bayou if I did. I would definitely run all four Wastelands and all eight cycling lands and would consider 26 lands to be the bare minimum.

[BlindMage]

If we're talking about changing the win condition, consider Haunting Echoes. Even Smallpox -> Haunting Echoes seems worth doing, but it will often be much better than that.

[frogboy]

Echoes is a lot worse than Harvest because of Retrace and Harvest's ability to let you come from behind.

[e=mc^2]

Playing Tombstalker in your Death Cloud deck is wtf. So is Terravore. Your creatures should be guys that stave off death early because pretty much anything is good post-Cloud, and you have Harvest going long.

re: Harvest: Crypt and Extirpate are both very good against your deck. Consider adding Burning Wish.



I only play one Harvest because I never want to see more than one. Because there is only one Harvest I don't want to count on it as the only win condition. Cycling into a big dude after Cloud is just as good as Harvest. In fact I don't even need Loam. I can just leave one threat in my hand after Cloud. I like not needing Loam to win. It means that Crypt and Extirpate are only a real problem for Vore and Stalker. If I can't have them I can always go Finks FTW.

[frogboy]

Don't kid yourself, without Loam your deck is really loose. We were seriously considering Shred Memory just to have more Loams in the Extended version.

edit: you can also dredge into Harvest really fast if you're trying, and my point about Tombstalker not being very good on defense in your deck remains valid.

[bowvamp]

I agree with you frogboy. His creatures should be playable early which makes tombstalker inviable. Try tarmogoyf. Also, running smallpox without evasive creatures is dumb. For the hundredth time, run sinkhole. You will be surprised how often sinkhole will lead to a mana screw. It also is just two to take away a continuous source of mana. It repays itself during the untap phase of the opponents turn after next. That thing said earlier about pox being an aggro spell is fail. It's the most potent CONTROL spell in the game. Just because it generates it's advantage when it hits play and kills a bunch of stuff does not mean it's aggro. This is why pox has a chance versus combo while aggro is horrific versus it.

[frogboy]

Tarmogoyf, as stated earlier, is still bad.

Have you ever actually cast Smallpox after your opponent opens on Wild Nacatl? It's a really good feeling.

[bowvamp]

I have, in a deck called pox and later in my twist on that deck, discipline pox.

[e=mc^2]

I have, in a deck called pox and later in my twist on that deck, discipline pox.

Thank you for telling me about your other decks. That post was extremely relevant to this thread.

Also, I don't want to drop early creatures. I want to kill my opponents stuff, then drop a dude and beat.l

[DeathwingZERO]

I agree with you frogboy. His creatures should be playable early which makes tombstalker inviable. Try tarmogoyf. Also, running smallpox without evasive creatures is dumb.

Way to read only what you want. If you agreed with Frogboy, you'd realize exactly why Tarmogoyf is bad here: he's a wall. That's it. Baloth on the other hand, might be exactly what this deck would be looking for. Slightly larger in cost than Finks, same need for GG, but a larger body and more life gain at your discretion. Worth looking into, I know Standard DC lists used to use a couple.


For the hundredth time, run sinkhole. You will be surprised how often sinkhole will lead to a mana screw. It also is just two to take away a continuous source of mana. It repays itself during the untap phase of the opponents turn after next.

For the hundredth time, no. This isn't Pox, this is dedicated control. There's already enough potential tempo with Smallpox, Death Cloud, Loam, Wasteland, and STE. Cutting cards that are the concept of the deck to add in narrow land destruction isn't going to get it to the end game any faster.


That thing said earlier about pox being an aggro spell is fail. It's the most potent CONTROL spell in the game. Just because it generates it's advantage when it hits play and kills a bunch of stuff does not mean it's aggro. This is why pox has a chance versus combo while aggro is horrific versus it.

Pox is an aggro-control deck. You know why it's distinguished as such?

It runs just enough disruption to have it's cheap aggro elements get through unhindered. Pox itself is synergy, pure and simple. Pox decks break that synergy by playing creatures that don't die to it, land destruction elements to further cut back the opponent's mana production, and discard spells to further eat it's hand. In other words, it's immune to it's own bomb.

The problem is, Pox isn't guaranteed at doing it's job alone, hence the additional 16-20 spells backing it. That's NOT control. Take the card out of a deck designed specifically around it, then come back and tell me it's the most potent control card out there, or that it's even control at all. You can't. You simply MUST break the symmetry, or be in the exact same position as your opponent.

However, the tempo gain from a single Pox is often game breaking BECAUSE of the fact the deck is aggressive at it's core. And this is also why it's got slightly better game against combo than pure aggro builds. Most of them just flat out don't pack any disruption. Land destruction, hand disruption, and a fast clock are all good against fast combo, while still having relatively solid options against pure control. Hence the rise of aggro-control in Legacy over the past few years.

Sorry to derail the thread a little bit e=mc^2, but I had to set it straight that Pox strategies do not belong here.

[e=mc^2]

Way to read only what you want. If you agreed with Frogboy, you'd realize exactly why Tarmogoyf is bad here: he's a wall. That's it. Baloth on the other hand, might be exactly what this deck would be looking for. Slightly larger in cost than Finks, same need for GG, but a larger body and more life gain at your discretion. Worth looking into, I know Standard DC lists used to use a couple.


Baloth and Finks Both gain you 4 life. Finks has to come into play a second time, and Baloth has to die, so they both have their drawbacks. Also, by turn 4 Baloth won't be eating any Goyfs so the larger body doesn't matter there. Both Finks and Baloth can both block small tribal dudes. The extra power might end the game faster, but I chose finks because I could play it after a Death Cloud without needing another land drop. I realize that I should have Loam active by the time I play Death Cloud, But sometimes I don't.

[Finn]

Hey folks. I just thought I would tell you that I have been dinking about this sort of design myself. After working at it a bit, I actually went without Deeds. Instead I have Birds and Chrome Mox, and for Pete's sake, Tombstalkers, man. Chrome Mox is excellent in this deck with all the extra Loams and Crimes you tend to see. The acceleration is a really big deal too, and these cards make your recovery from Clouds so much better than the opponent. I actually have guys left over after Cloud most of the time. I think I might take Smallpox out though, for the same reasons.

Anyway, good luck

[DeathwingZERO]

Baloth and Finks Both gain you 4 life. Finks has to come into play a second time, and Baloth has to die, so they both have their drawbacks. Also, by turn 4 Baloth won't be eating any Goyfs so the larger body doesn't matter there. Both Finks and Baloth can both block small tribal dudes. The extra power might end the game faster, but I chose finks because I could play it after a Death Cloud without needing another land drop. I realize that I should have Loam active by the time I play Death Cloud, But sometimes I don't.

Smallpox and Edict should be taking care of fast Goyfs, as well as STE (to block, at least). You don't need much more in the early game IMO, as that's already 10 slots to take on a 4 of. If you really fear an early Goyf, I'd suggest swapping those Edict's for targeted removal instead (or possibly looking into dropping Deed for spot removal, as a majority of extended lists have done...Deed is heavily mana intensive in pinch situations, you could afford to SB it for matchups where it's more than favorable for you to sit on it).

If you went that route, you'd have better control over what the opponent is getting rid of, which might help in the long run (especially against things like Thresh, where the 4/4 body can stall those Mongoose all day long). Baloth would most definitely not be a 4 of in this list either, unless you used it over Terravore for the late game. Another option is Garruk, which has seen heavy use in Ext lists because it's immune to your removal as well as being both acceleration and a win con in it's own.

There's a lot of options DC lists can use, I would probably say what your win condition is will end up being a more personal flavor. My main concern with the deck is that it has to be fast enough with stall/removal in order to put the game into DC range, and that's primarily what I'll be looking at with testing.

[e=mc^2]

I would not drop all of the deeds from the main deck. It is the only MD answer to artifacts and enchantments, which is necessary with all the counter-tops around.

[DeathwingZERO]

I would not drop all of the deeds from the main deck. It is the only MD answer to artifacts and enchantments, which is necessary with all the counter-tops around.

The main goal of a deck like this is to be as immune to CB/T as much as possible, not answering it. Threats should all be out of range of a flip, and the disruption should attempt to keep them from getting it to stick, not answering it when it does. And Deed only answers Counterbalance, most decks can dig and find another, especially using Top.

And Deed is not CB/T proof in itself. Dreadstill has 3cc, and so do most versions of Thresh, as well as ITF, having it's own Deeds as well. CB/T should be something you consider playing around, but not heavily worried about. This also is why I was urging putting in threats that are outside that range, such as Baloth/Garruk and Tombstalker. Death Cloud is already immune to it, whatever you play afterward should be also.

[e=mc^2]

Counter-Top can hit Loam and raven's crime, making it hard for you to force a Death Cloud through countermagic, or dredge through the deck. Also deed solves a fast army of little dudes and any random artifact/enchantment shenanigans like Quinn. I like keeping 2-3 in the MD.

EDIT: Deed answers CB and top at the same time.

[frogboy]

The main goal of a deck like this is to be as immune to CB/T as much as possible


4 Life from the Loam

?

[DeathwingZERO]

Counter-Top can hit Loam and raven's crime, making it hard for you to force a Death Cloud through countermagic, or dredge through the deck. Also deed solves a fast army of little dudes and any random artifact/enchantment shenanigans like Quinn. I like keeping 2-3 in the MD.

EDIT: Deed answers CB and top at the same time.

Deed only answers Top if they've already activated it for the draw, in which they'll still get the top card anyway. Aside from that, you'd need a Needle to keep it from coming right back next turn.

The card I was considering using in Deed's place was Damnation. Most decks would only get one or two swings in with a single big creature (or a few small ones, barring goblins) by the time this went online, and it's less mana intensive than Deed for clearing boards.

It might still be good to have anyway, though not sure if it's really necessary, and what other options would be good to swap for it.

I was also considering looking into Mox Diamonds. They keep making me feel like they belong here, much like in Aggro Loam, to speed up the deck just a tad, and make better use of Loam and Death Cloud/Smallpox. Have you looked into testing them yet?

[e=mc^2]

At first I passed on the Diamonds because of the Deeds, but if you are cutting the Deeds they would work well. Damnation sounds like it would be a good replacement for deed.

[Blueskier]

I don't think dropping the deeds altogether is the right choice. Combining them with Tombstalker and/or Garruk (Which I think every list should run) is usually devastating. Maybe you could try splitting between deed and damnation. However, already running death cloud, you have to wonder, how many sweepers do you want to run?

[e=mc^2]

However, already running death cloud, you have to wonder, how many sweepers do you want to run?

That is why we are deciding which sweeper to run in a smaller number.

[DeathwingZERO]

Part of me really wants to play 3 Deed, 3 Edict, 2 Damnation. That same part of me really wants to push a 3rd Damnation into the deck though, and try more Smallpox....which would probably cut Edict entirely.

Another part of me wants to commit suicide to spare itself from the insanity that is balancing the correct number of spot removal, mass removal, and aggressive removal (re: instant speed targeting), while not stepping on the toes of Death Cloud.

[e=mc^2]

Most decks I play against have a small creature count, so Edict is great. You can just cast it in response to a lame dude being cast and kill whatever is on the board. If you happen to play against a tribal deck deed can help out 'till you find Death Cloud. Right now I have 3 Edict 2 Deed and 3 Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize is almost removal. On the play it can stop turn 1 Lackey, or wreck a elves or merfolk so Edict can do the rest.

[e=mc^2]

This past weekend I went 3-0-1 and missed top 2 on tiebreakers.
Here is what I played:

3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Bayou
3x Barren Moor
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Wasteland
5x Swamp
4x Forest

3x Terravore
3xTomb Stalker
3x Finks
4x STE

3x Raven's Crime
3x Thoughtseize
1x Worm Harvest
3x Death Cloud
3x Edict
2x Deed
4x Loam
2x Smallpox

SB:
4x COTV
3x Krosan Grip
3x Engineered Plague
3x Choke
2x Crypt

Round 1 Suicide Black (2-0):
Game 1: We both empty our hands quickly. He gets 2 Cursed Scroll down and pings me every turn. I find a Worm Harvest and beat down.
Game 2: He cant find removal for 2 Tomb Stalkers. I win.

Round 2 B/G manlands and Goyf (0-2)
Game 1: He keeps activating manlands to save Goyf from Edict. I never get enough mana to Harvest and stay alive.
Game 2: I he Wastelanded/Sinkholed 4 times, but this one is close. Eventually he wishes for a Tomb stalker that I cant block the turn before I would Kill him with worms.

Round 3 MUC (2-0)
Game 1: He steals a Finks with a Sower. I Deed and beat down with 2 Finks FTW.
Game 2: He counters some stuff. I dredge into Worm Harvest and win.

Round 4 Goyf Sligh (2-0)
Game 1: I chump a Figure of Destiny for 3 turns with STE's and empty his hand with Raven's crime. Eventually I find a Terravore and beat down.
Game 2: I Thoughtseize a Goyf, Deed a Goyf and edict a Goyf. Eventually I find a Terravore and win.

Things I learned. I want more cycling lands. I will either play seven or eight.

I felt like I never had enough time or mana for Deed. I always needed it to happen a turn sooner than it could. A replacement may be Crime // Punishment. This allows me to kill Things at 1 mana less. The downside is that some things might survive, and It won't ht tomb Stalker.

Edict Is nice, But I really like the extra effects from smallpox. This deck can afford to lose a land and usually doesn't have a creature out to sacrifice when I would need to kill an opposing creature.

I really wish I could get Strong Hold more often. This makes me think of a Living Wish Board. I could remove some big dudes from the main deck to use as wish targets, and make space for the Wishes. This also may be a terrible idea. Thoughts?

Planed Changes:
-1 Bayou, -1 Swamp
+1 Barren Moor, +1 Tranquil Thicket

-2 Deed, -3 Edict
+3 Crime//Punishment, +2 Smallpox

[DeathwingZERO]

8 Cycling lands is probably going to be the way to go, I was considering that myself.

I suggest testing Damnation if you just need to blow up creatures. It is 4cc, but I didn't see a whole lot in that report suggesting all you needed to do was pop Deed for 1, so I assume 4 mana would have actually worked.

If you need to blow up more, Punishment might work out, but having to have all the mana on the same turn seems like a stretch (especially Tombstalkers). Maybe the Mox Diamonds should be tested again before an optimal choice can be made?

[georgjorge]

Why don't you splash ? In general, decks with Mox Diamond and/or Life from the Loam can EASILY play three or even four colors. Trust me on this...I've played 4c-Aggro Loam with hardly any difficulties, and I didn't even run STE. Wasteland is much less scary with ~30 mana sources and Loam, plus if they sac a Wasteland, Smallpox and Deathcloud just hit them harder.

Splashing would give you pretty good stuff for that deck.

White: Vindicate, Swords, maybe 'Geddon in the board.

Red: Burning Wish, Pyroclasm/Firespout in the board, Blasts in the board.

Blue: Intuition, Brainstorm, Fact or Fiction.


Speaking of which, I think some card digging in the form of Top would be very much needed. Without exaggeration, I'd say that any control deck not running blue needs at least three of those to avoid mana floods or useless cards in the mid- and lategame.

[e=mc^2]

Why don't you splash ? In general, decks with Mox Diamond and/or Life from the Loam can EASILY play three or even four colors. Trust me on this...I've played 4c-Aggro Loam with hardly any difficulties, and I didn't even run STE. Wasteland is much less scary with ~30 mana sources and Loam, plus if they sac a Wasteland, Smallpox and Deathcloud just hit them harder.

Splashing would give you pretty good stuff for that deck.

White: Vindicate, Swords, maybe 'Geddon in the board.

Red: Burning Wish, Pyroclasm/Firespout in the board, Blasts in the board.

Blue: Intuition, Brainstorm, Fact or Fiction.


Speaking of which, I think some card digging in the form of Top would be very much needed. Without exaggeration, I'd say that any control deck not running blue needs at least three of those to avoid mana floods or useless cards in the mid- and lategame.


Intuition may be just what is needed. It can help make sure I can get a threat or Loam or Volrath's Stronghold. I like how it is very synergistic with the recursion elements in the deck. Would it be worth including one Eternal Witness to tutor up with Intuition?

I'm not sure how useful Top would be. Late game I am usually recurring loam, so I know what I am drawing...

[DeathwingZERO]

Top doesn't seem to be as good here because it's much more focused on the early game control than Aggro Loam and Rock, which can land early threats and ride them out aggro-style. Terravore and Tombstalker require a bit of time to set up, so mana is probably going to be better spent on control elements than topdeck manipulation.

I like the concept of Intuition, but not sure if it's worth putting in for gimmicks. It'd be very hard to get the specific spell/land you wanted out of it in a pinch without putting Witness back in, or constantly going for the Loam/Stronghold/Creature play. That said, it'd probably be a minimum of 3 Intuition and 1 Witness having to come back in, which really means it's taking the slots of the control spells you'd want it for otherwise. It's also more than likely going to be a time walk for the opponent, just because you'll probably not have the mana to cast it and whatever you tutored for in the same turn.

That said, going for red and Burning Wish might be more acceptable, because the sideboard has more slots to work with than the maindeck at this point, and the chance that you are spending a turn to tutor means you are actually getting what you want out of it. It would also allow for more consistency with early Loam gimmicks, as you could go with the 3/1 plan.

I think it's turning the deck a little more into Rock/Aggro Loam hybrid than Death Cloud based control, but it might actually be worth it to not have to play catch up to aggro, as Burning Wish -> Pyroclasm requires less mana commitment and management than Damnation or Deed.

[HAVE HEART]

The Extended lists that ran Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime actually cut Death Cloud. I have not tested those lists, so I do not know the reason why, but it might be worth giving it a shot.

Looking over some Extended lists, it seems Crime//Punishment has replaced Death Cloud as a sweeper. Crime//Punishment does not seem that good in Legacy, but I would still try cutting Death Cloud to see if that could improve any matchups.

[Pulp_Fiction]

How about a new take. One thing that is really going to affect the deck is Leylines, and the thing is, this deck is not forced to run Loam. After looking at the extended versions, I think this deck can be very viable in the format, but none of them ran Loam. I personally would never run Loam without Burning Wish in the deck. And I have played enough Aggro Loam to tell you how fucking annoying it is drawing cycling lands and then throwing them into play after you just sweeped the board. Especially hands with 1 real land and 2-3 cyclers, and in a build without Mox Diamond, that will be annoying as hell.

The point is, why make the deck succeptible to so much hate cards when you don't have to be. Still run Loam, maybe 2 or so just because it is that good, but play kill sources that are not so reliant on the graveyard and will make the deck just sort of chuckle when the opponent opens with Leyline! New idea:

4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
3x Kitchen Finks
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tombstalker/Terravore

3x Deathcloud
4x Thoughtseize/Duress
3x Deed
3x Top
2x Life from the Loam
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Damnation
3x Snuff Out

4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Bayou
3x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Swamp
4x Forest

Smallpox can be VERY good, or it can really set you back and delay the game. Oftentimes it really does put you in a situation like the Pox decks, where you really aren't glad to cast the card in your hand since it may hinder you more. I love and really hate Raven's Crime. It can be good, but it is so reliant on Loam that I don't even want to play it. I tested the card out and really disliked it because, unlike what Death Cloud should be doing, it is either hit or miss, as opposed to something that is always going to be good by itself (Deed, Snuff Out, etc.).

[e=mc^2]

I like Garruk can be very synergistic w/ Death Cloud. It can allow for bigger clouds with the untaping or a threat right after the cloud. Along the same lines, Bitterblossom could be another win condition which is not dependent on the yard and doesn't die to Cloud. However, the life loss may be too much with Death Cloud and Snuff Out.

I don't like Snuff Out in this deck. There is no need for the free spell because this deck doesn't mint baying for other removal like Smother, Diabolic Edict, or Terror. I think that one of the aforementioned removal spells would be better than Snuff Out.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I actually want a 4th Finks in the deck, that card is REALLY good. I decided to cut the Tombstalker/Terravore slot and try out Liliana Vess, its fucking awesome. Unreliant on the graveyard in every way, fetches out whatever you need at any time and avoids Counterbalance all day.

Snuff Out is in there to protect the Planeswalkers. There will be times where you just can't get enough creatures out to block/stall, and Snuff Out kills basically every relevant threat in the format with the except for Tombstalker (which is not so much a problem when you run Death Cloud). I am very tempted to take Loam out of the deck entirely and put in Putrefy/Smother/Edict in its place. Loam feels, a lot of the time, like win more. It usually isn't necessary and the additional removal would be pretty solid. Most likely I would play 2x Chainer's Edict in those spots or add in the 4th Finks and perhaps another Planeswalker or Damnation or even Kodama's Reach/Search for Tomorrow.

There are a lot of radically different ways to take this deck. I really don't want to go the Loam route since I am tired of having Tormod's Crypt/Relic and Leyline tear the deck apart until I find an answer. So far I really want to cut Loam entirely, but it is nice having it there since Wastelock just wins games by itself.

Also, Garruk is spectacular in this deck. Bitterblossom is very interesting. I like its synergy with Death Cloud, but the lifeloss could prove to much and it has no synergy with Pernicious Deed at all. If you were to play Bitterblossom the Finks count would certainly have to be 4 but I am not sure if that is enough since this deck does a lot of damage to itself.

[georgjorge]

Looking at the list of Pulp_Fiction and other posts, I guess you'll have to decide which direction the deck wants to take. A Rock-ish board control deck with lots of removal (in which Death Cloud wouldn't be so spectacular, I think) ? Or a land destruction deck in which the LD also acts as removal and discard (Smallpox, Death Cloud), which I think is the original idea behind the deck ?

In the second case, you just cannot run without Loam. It's THE card that breaks the symmetries of Smallpox and Death Cloud, and a great draw engine. You might even want Crucible for that, as well as Sinkhole. In the first case, Loam isn't needed much if you don't play any Smallpoxes.


@Pulp_Fiction: I wouldn't worry too much about Leyline, which I hardly see played anymore. Crypt/Relic DO have some effect versus you, but it's far from gamebreaking if they get rid of a Loam, more like a 1-for-1 or 1-for-2 trade. Death Cloud and Smallpox get more symmetric, but they still cost your opponent cards. Playing Aggro Loam a lot as well, I seldom hated the cycling lands, since playing 4 Mox and 20-21 "normal" lands, hands with more than one cycler that you need to play are rare.



Looking over some Extended lists, it seems Crime//Punishment has replaced Death Cloud as a sweeper. Crime//Punishment does not seem that good in Legacy, but I would still try cutting Death Cloud to see if that could improve any matchups.

I think the two cards aren't comparable at all. One destroys all permanents of one casting cost. The other one destroys creatures, lands, and cards in hand. Crime//Punishment is an ordinary sweeper which can be easily put into a deck not running many permanents, while Death Cloud needs cards that support it, like Loam. Crime//Punishment just serves as defense against troublesome permanents, while Death Cloud has a very gamebreaking effect if it resolves.

[DeathwingZERO]

Death Cloud has to stay in this deck, or it might as well become a Rock variant or just step all the way into Aggro Loam territory. The card is the endgame here, if it resolves, you pretty much win.

And I still really hate the concept of Tarmogoyf in here. He's a fast beater that acts as a wall early on, and is on par or weaker than Tombstalker and Terravore in the late game. Not really worth the slots, in my opinion.

I still really like Garruk as a concept, and possibly Vess (Death Cloud -> mass reanimation anyone?). The problem here is that creatures need to not be able to come through, or there needs to be creatures that keep coming back/regenerate.

I'll check in again later and see what's going on, but for now there's still a ton of work needing to be done with the new comp.

[jazzykat]

Forgive my ignorance but everyone is talking about how this deck is awesomesauce. What are the non-favorable matchups for this archetype and what are the abysmal ones?

[e=mc^2]

As I said in the first post TES is abysmal. I have played 4 matches and won only one game. The only other match that felt bad was a random deck with a lot of manlands that was not 43land.dec. I have not done extensive testing so that is all I know.

[frogboy]

Can't beat a combo deck. Probably can't beat a regular Loam list that has Dreams, Vore, and Assault.

Planeswalkers that are only good post Death Cloud are pretty abysmal. The only one that's even close to justifiable is Garruk and he is still loose.

[e=mc^2]

This weekend Conflux release events interfered with my weekly legacy events, so I did not get to test out the planeswalker version of the deck. I would love to hear from Pulp Fiction about the matchups for the deck. Also, Deathwing, If you have any testing data I would love to hear it. I am trying to get ready for a tournament in two weeks.

[DeathwingZERO]

I haven't had the chance to proxy this up and playtest with a buddy of mine, but after playing Aggro Loam against ANT for a couple hours, I've come to the conclusion that this deck is even harder pressed to put pressure on it than that was, and I got my ass handed to me repeatedly.

So from what I know for sure, as frogboy said, combo is an absolute lose matchup. You are pretty much going to have to run completely out of the sideboard for it, or just shelve it up as an auto loss.

When I do get a chance to put it together, it'll be run against ANT, Ichorid, Goblins, UGR Moon Thresh, 4C Landstill, and possibly White Stax. So it'll have a nice little gauntlet of matches under it's belt on my end.

I'll also update with whatever list I choose, but suffice it to say the deck is amazingly tight. I'm having troubles trying to balance all the different stuff in here, just because there's so few 4-of.

[e=mc^2]

This weekend I went 2-1 with the following list:

4 Kitchen Finks
1 Terravore
2 Tombstalker

3 Damnation
3 Death Cloud
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Life From the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
2 Raven's Crime
3 Thoughtseize
1 Worm Harvest

SB
4 COTV
3 Grip
2 K Choke
3 Extirpate
3 E Plague

I played a lot of the same decks as last time, so I could compare some of my changes.

Suicide Black
Game 1: He gets some early Negator beats, and plays another dude. I play Garruk then Edict on the same turn and win with the walker.
Game 2: By turn 3 he has 3 negators. I only draw one removal spell and no blockers. I lose.
Game 3: He has 2 negators on turn 6 I Death Cloud for 3 killing his land his dudes and his hand. A persistent Finks seals the deal.
1-0

Manlands and Land Destruction (same deck from last time)
Both games he has Spreading Algae, and Urborg. I never have more than one land in play. I am sad.
1-1

Goyf-Sligh
Game 1: Early burn and Ram-Gang beats put me at low life. We go into a creature stalemate. I am too low on life to Cloud, and drawnno Damnation. The turn before I kill him with a Stalker he topdecks a mountain and makes a Figure of Destiny big and flying and makes me dead.
Game 2: I edict a dude. Two turns later I get a damnation 2 for 1. I win with Stalker in the air and Finks holding the ground.
Game 3: By turn 5 I Damnation 2 for 1 twice thanks to some Mox Diamond Acceleration. Garruk finishes the game.

Damnation and Garruk are awesome in the deck. Garruk can go mana acceleration for LFTL and cycling, or make tokens and stall or beat. I always loved to see him.

Damnation got me 2 for 1's all day. It seemed like a lot of people didn't see it coming. Also, if they hold back dudes Thoughtseize and Raven's Crime will get rid of them anyways.

I am not sold on Mox Diamond. The early acceleration was nice but It may be better to have STE as an early blocker. I can't decide between these two.

I woult like to have 1 or 2 more threats (+1 Tombstalker, +1 Terravore), but I have no idea what to cut.

[DeathwingZERO]

How did the manabase look? I can't tell whether or not the Mox Diamonds really had a place without seeing the rest of the list. Also, I'm not sure I'd rule out the Diamonds immediately, as the STE's can only go for basics. Smoothing out the manabase while still wanting to see GG and BB at the same time (turn 3 with Diamond or after STE activation), while only having 4 duals is pretty tight.

[e=mc^2]

How did the manabase look? I can't tell whether or not the Mox Diamonds really had a place without seeing the rest of the list. Also, I'm not sure I'd rule out the Diamonds immediately, as the STE's can only go for basics. Smoothing out the manabase while still wanting to see GG and BB at the same time (turn 3 with Diamond or after STE activation), while only having 4 duals is pretty tight.

The mana base was:
3 x Bayou
5x Fetch
3x Tranquil Thicket
4x Barren Moor
1x Volrath's Stronghold
5x Forest
5x Swamp

I never had problems getting gg bb by turn 3 with a Diamond, or turn 4 without. I also only had to play one cycle land.

I am thinking about cutting one forest for a Maze of Ith.

[DeathwingZERO]

Maze might be a good call, it'd be great against opposing fatties not backed by Wastelands, which is a lot of decks.

Obviousness aside, are you still thinking of cutting the Diamonds? I've been looking over the list and trying to fit 3-4 of STE back in, but it'd cut out important stuff. I keep thinking with Finks, STE, Garruk and Damnation in the deck now (with Ith coming soon), that Edicts can be taken out. Thoughts on that?

[e=mc^2]

I am going to leave the Edicts in for the tournament today as well as the Diamonds. I could see switching the Edicts to STE's, but the problem I see is against a control matchup. If I don't empty their hand then they only have 6 big mana sweepers and a Maze to deal with. This buts me in the awkward spot of having to chump block Goyf for many turns.

[e=mc^2]

This saturday I played in a tournament at Jupiter Games. Here is the list:

4x Finks
2x Tombstalker
1x Terravore

4x Mox Diamond
4x Life from the Loam
4x Edict
3x Garruk
3x Damnation
3x Death Cloud
3x Thoughtseize
2x Raven's Crime
1x Worm Harvest

3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Bayou
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Barren Moor
1x Maze of Ith
1x Volrath's SH
2x Wasteland
4x Swamp
4x Forest

SB
4x COTV
3x Engineered Plague
2x Choke
3x Extirpate
3x K Grip

In the Main event I did terrible.

Round 1: Ichorid
I lost, and there was nothing I could do about it.

Round 2: Counter Slivers
In game 1 I mull down to 5 and never see more than 2 lands. In game 2 I mull down to 6 and never see more than three lands.

Round 3: Merfolk
Game 1 I remove some early dudes with edict, and then land a Garruk. I eventually Cloud away his hand and board, then beat Him with Garruk. Game 2 a quick Engineered Plague wrecks him. A second on draws a concession.

Round 4: Canadian Thresh
Game 1 I mull to 5 and lose a lot. Game 2 I Thoughtseize him. He wastes my Bayou on turn 2 and I neverget more than 2 land in play.

After that I dropped and played a 10 man side event. I went 3-0 beating mono blue faries, Alluren elf comb , and counter slivers.

I am sorry to say that I think I may cut Death Cloud to 2 for another Vore, or stalker.