Proxies in Unsactioned Tournaments

[Citrus-God]

So over at the Tournament Forum right now, there's a discussion of whether proxies will damage the current Legacy player base or help grow the Legacy player base.

Soo... like the good kid I am, I feel that the discussion of proxying in is taking away discussion over at the Tournament Forum.

[Hopo]

So over at the Tournament Forum right now, there's a discussion of whether proxies will damage the current Legacy player base or help grow the Legacy player base.

Soo... like the good kid I am, I feel that the discussion of proxying in is taking away discussion over at the Tournament Forum.

I don't know why legacy should be played with proxies. It's perfectly understandable in T1, where a single card can cost hundreds of euros/dollars thus really giving the edge to people with money and p9's. Legacy has some random 1-ofs which barely hit 100$, and those cards aren't widely played at all.

Here in Finland we basically have no unsanctioned legacy or vintage events at all. I guess it's a bit different in the states and I might be lacking some insight on this issue.

[Citrus-God]

Playtesting. This process is good for before the GP. Some players might want to playtest more before they blow cash on stuff.

[Hopo]

Playtesting. This process is good for before the GP. Some players might want to playtest more before they blow cash on stuff.

Sure, but shouldn't you usually do the testing outside tournaments? Eternal formats are nice, as when you buy/trade staples, they most likely will only go up in price. That way I don't see investing in cards a bad deal. Of course, many of the players are young or full-time students and don't have steady cash flows. I guess that some people just can't trade or buy the cards they want.

[leander?]

In my opinion, allowing proxies is te only way to make magic feel less like a money-game. Right now, if you've got lots of money, you can play a tier-1 deck and with a bit of testing you can get to T8's at tournaments.
So, the problem is that money is still the most important factor. When you allow proxies, players will have to have experience, instead of money, to win a tournament.

[Captain Hammer]

I have good job and no problem getting any card that I need for a deck.

But it sucks playing against decks that my opponents themselves are unhappy with because they couldn't run the cards, like Force of Wills and Fetchlands that they wanted to run.

I would much rather play against optimized good powerful decks that my opponent's are completely happy with, than against decks thrown together with whatever cards that player had available to them.

So yes, I'm down with proxies. I think it would encourage more players to play legacy and play in legacy tournaments. And I think it would lead to better decks and a better metagame overall.

I think we should come up with strict rules for Proxies though.

For example, to very clearly, NEATLY and LEGIBLY write down the cards name on an alternate card with minimal or no text. I personally think completely textless basic lands are perfect for this purpose.

And to also bring a sheet or maybe the xerox of the original card with a player with all the information on the card, it's full text, casting cost and card type, that they can give to the opponent upon playing the card, so the opponent knows exactly what was just played.

I also think that World Championship edition cards are prefectly fine and should be legal proxies as they really are impossible to tell apart from regular cards based on the sleeve backs.

[Taurelin]

In casual play and also in Legacy-playtesting, proxies are a neat way to try things without the obligation to waste lots amounts of money.

In tournaments, proxies allow players to play with the list they would like to use, you can show up as a team (sharing the card pool) with 3 or more identical decks, and so on.

Personally, I don't really care if my opponent's cards are black-bordered, Asian, textless-foil, or a black and white copy from a cheap printer, as long as I can understand which card it is and as long as he knows how to use it.


So basically, I agree 100% with Captain Hammer.

[Citrus-God]

Sure, but shouldn't you usually do the testing outside tournaments?

Test builds might be outdated, the playtest pilot might not be comfortable with his deck due to lack of experience and comfort, Sideboards tend to vary so playtesting results may be quite skewed, and other random variables to take into consideration. It's not like you can playtest against a Geoff Smelski or a Bryant Cook. And it's not like everybody can play Landstill or TES properly either. And what about playing against Threshold? What if the SB you used doesnt run Teeg, but the lists you faced in tournaments do?

[Hopo]

I see your point, but I also believe that it is considered good practice to playtest for the tournaments, not in the tournaments. You know, like in the perfect world. But sure, tournaments are a good environment for testing also due to the variety of decks and opponents.

[Skeggi]

When testing, you can ofcourse proxy your deck. In a Tournament, this is flat-out ridiculous! Legacy cards are generally very steady in their value. I'd like to say Legacy is, on the long term, the cheapest format to play. There's no need to proxy at a Legacy tournament imo. If you can't spend $200 on a deck, you should consider getting a job.

[Dan Turner]

I voted yes for the following reasons.


1.) Anything that promotes a more diverse player base is positive for the game.

2.) If it would encourage more players who can't afford duals/fetches I am all for it.

3.) Allows for odd ball decks you normally wouldn't see since a lot of players don't want to opt for cards outside a standard decklist if they cost too much.

[Bahamuth]

When testing, you can ofcourse proxy your deck. In a Tournament, this is flat-out ridiculous! Legacy cards are generally very steady in their value. I'd like to say Legacy is, on the long term, the cheapest format to play. There's no need to proxy at a Legacy tournament imo. If you can't spend $200 on a deck, you should consider getting a job.

The question isn't if there's no need, but if there's a reason not to allow them. The argument that Legacy is cheap and you should be able to get your $200 doesn't mean anything, because you immediately assume you are obliged to spend money to be able to play magic. I don't see why this is true. Wizards doesn't earn any money from this format at all, and really doesn't care about it either. I don't see why people are obliged to buy cards, if they can play exactly the same game without buying them. It would certainly raise the interest in Legacy, and it would improve the showup at tournaments.

[JeroenC]

3.) Allows for odd ball decks you normally wouldn't see since a lot of players don't want to opt for cards outside a standard decklist if they cost too much.

This is why I probably wouldn't like it. Legacy tournaments with any number of allowed proxies would just pretty much scream "Make any deck you want and come play." As fun as it might be, I don't want to play 3 rounds on a day piloting Storm against some wacky 5-card combo that puts 10 creatures in play (or whatever).

[Skeggi]

you immediately assume you are obliged to spend money to be able to play magic. I don't see why this is true. Wizards doesn't earn any money from this format at all, and really doesn't care about it either. I don't see why people are obliged to buy cards, if they can play exactly the same game without buying them. It would certainly raise the interest in Legacy, and it would improve the showup at tournaments.

Yes, I assume Magic costs money to play. Do you know why? Everything costs money. It's unfair to the people who have spend cash on cards which would devalue heavily when proxies are allowed.

Also, Wizards does make money with Legacy. Just not as much as they do with drafts or standard, but still they make money because of Legacy. There's a reason they print better and better cards, otherwise they could've just been the same powerlevel as in the Ice Age, Alliances, Homelands days.

Wizards doesn't care about this format? What the heck is Ad Nauseaum then? There are more examples, they're just also good in standard or extended(Tarmogoyf, Countryside Crusher, Tezzeret and so on and so forth). There's even a GP this year (yay!).

Proxying at tournaments almost comes down to theft. You're stealing Wizard's intellectual property.

The tournaments I go to generally are 30+ people, with the occasional exception of a 100+ people tournament. I think that's enough people playing Legacy. If people really want to play Legacy, they can, they just have to spend some cash, but same goes for every format.

If you allow proxies in Legacy, to lower money threshold, you're attracting the wrong kind of people: kids who play pokémon (because it's cheap). Yay, the Legacy community grew...but at what price?

This discussion falls into the same category whether online tournaments should be counted towards DTB. If proxies are allowed, you may as well.

[Hopo]

I guess I also question the point of allowing proxies. What keeps us just playing with MWS and unsanctioned all-proxies tournaments then? If magic was all about more and more people playing it, the cards would be free or the whole thing would be online. For free.

Some local vintage players keep saying that proxies would help them to get better decks for opponents thus increasing the quality of tournaments, but after tournaments they just might flame how bad the proxy players are and how they don't know how to play the game.

[Eatatjoes]

Yes, proxies should be allowed. Its a good way to get new players into the game, and some cards do cost alot of money, and arent played in multiple decks. Cards like moat/tabernacle/drake. I own every legacy staple, and every card ever even tried in a legacy deck, i have foil fetches, multiple playsets of fetches, full set of duals, multiple forces, EVERYTHING! And i would not mind playing against a proxied deck. I'd rather play against something optimized then a pile of junk.

And to everyone thats against proxies, what do you think will happen to this format if new players arent introduced? We are losing more players then we are gaining. Some stores cant even support a legacy tournie because prices of cards shot up, and none of the type 2 players can afford to play. When we use to have legacy tournies in my city, I would bring at least 4 fully optimized legacy decks with me, and whatever decks i didnt play, i would lend out to the new players.

I love legacy, it is byfar the best format, the players are awesome, every other format seems to be full of assholes and annoying people

[Skeggi]

none of the type 2 players can afford to play.

I love legacy, it is byfar the best format, the players are awesome, every other format seems to be full of assholes and annoying people
Type 2 is more expensive than Legacy, in the (slightly) long(er) run. A viable Type 2 deck also costs at least $200.

Well the new pool of players have to come from somewhere...some of the assholes will step over to Legacy, according to your logic.

[DeathwingZERO]

There's simply no reason to not allow proxies in the Eternal formats, period.

If you are upset because your opponent could fit 13 proxies into his deck while you spent all your money on the cards, that's literally the ONLY reason you have to be upset. They were able to play without putting out as much as you. On the flipside, when the crush you 2-0 repeatedly with said deck, you now know your place.

Allowing proxies gives far more to the format than not. In many cases, there's no reason to own Ichorids, Grave Trolls, Survivals, Standstills, etc....except playing the single archetype they support.

Yet a player willing to invest in a deckset of the fetches, duals, and staples that are universal in use could just as easily have thrown MORE money into the game than you did, and may only be missing these singleton decksets to play in tournaments. So now where's your argument?

To recap, the only con is that people who DID spend money on the format feel they've been cheated. Yet they don't realize they too can follow this method, and play unconventional strategies.

The pros are endless. You get further exposure (the exact same thing Vintage did), have much more real time practice and testing (because in my opinion MWS style testing is far from the real thing, as subconsciously you know there's nothing on the line), and allow for many more options in creations just because someone can now play that $400 deck that they couldn't afford for months.

And seriously people, get off the whole "get a job" bullshit. People don't live in the same areas, and generally don't make the same money or have the same living situations. A naive and ignorant statement such as this based on social and economic standings is not a good defense for being more deserving of the hobby.

[Fonzy]

I've always been supportive of proxies and reprints in every format. There's absolutely no reason this game shouldn't be a more cost-effective form of entertainment than it is, and the more egalitarian it is overall, the more people will play.

[Bahamuth]

Yes, I assume Magic costs money to play. Do you know why? Everything costs money. It's unfair to the people who have spend cash on cards which would devalue heavily when proxies are allowed.

Also, Wizards does make money with Legacy. Just not as much as they do with drafts or standard, but still they make money because of Legacy. There's a reason they print better and better cards, otherwise they could've just been the same powerlevel as in the Ice Age, Alliances, Homelands days.

Wizards doesn't care about this format? What the heck is Ad Nauseaum then? There are more examples, they're just also good in standard or extended(Tarmogoyf, Countryside Crusher, Tezzeret and so on and so forth). There's even a GP this year (yay!).

Proxying at tournaments almost comes down to theft. You're stealing Wizard's intellectual property.

The tournaments I go to generally are 30+ people, with the occasional exception of a 100+ people tournament. I think that's enough people playing Legacy. If people really want to play Legacy, they can, they just have to spend some cash, but same goes for every format.

If you allow proxies in Legacy, to lower money threshold, you're attracting the wrong kind of people: kids who play pokémon (because it's cheap). Yay, the Legacy community grew...but at what price?

This discussion falls into the same category whether online tournaments should be counted towards DTB. If proxies are allowed, you may as well.

Change will always be negative for someone. In this case, as DeathwingZERO stated, the pros are endless. Only those who have bought cards so far are being cheated on. However, as we all know, many players like to spend money to pimp their decks. This is esentially the same.

I'd like to hear why exactly Wizards makes money on Legacy. I can't think of any way at all. As far as I know, GPs only cost them money. The only factor that's there, is probably keeping the interest in magic overall.

That doesn't show through their support for this format. Ad Nauseam is the only card that comes close to being possibly designed for this format and Vintage only. I'm still sceptical on that too, since I've always thought combo isn't exactly the most liked type of deck there. The others have clearly been made as just general magic cards that would be good in Standard and Limited. Goyf is the perfect example. The card wasn't broken in either, but it is in Legacy (not really, kind of) because of the nature of the rest of the format.

If proxying is theft, then MWS would be theft too. How could it possibly be theft if Wizards decides to publish each and every card on their own site, for anyone to use?

Don't generalise on the type of people that will get into Legacy. Any player who has been playing magic mostly knows what format he likes. The only hope we have of raising interest in the format, is by attrackting new people.

I don't see any reason at all why we wouldn't allow tournaments with proxy's to be counted towards the DTB.

[Omega]

Vintage vs Legacy

Vintage needs proxy, legacy sure doesn't :
1- Cards rarity, value
Power 9 cards are costing over 150$ each (timetwister). Drain, workshop, bazaar are all expensive and rare (less for the drain) and highly playable. Are these cards necessary to compete in Vintage? In a format where everything is playable, some cards are more powerful than others. Unfortunately, these cards are also extremly valuable and rare. They can cost more than a whole deck. These cards also create extreme advantage due to their power level. They also push Vintage in a direction. You can take every top8 of Vintage tournament, and realize that most decks start with mox, black lotus, 1 recall, 1 timewalk... This alone, i think, prove my point that these cards are pushing vintage into a direction.

In legacy, you have duals that costs 20-40$ each. In t2, reflecting pool used to cost 20$, planeswalker used to cost more than force of will. Bittesblossom used to cost 20$. Fetchlands are not a problem although costy. They are largely used in Extended too and their availability is not questionable. Tarmogoyf was 45, but so were the tarmogoyfs played in T2 and Extended.
Are there any cards that can be said to shape legacy on its own? Fetchlands? Duals? Tarmogoyf? Although Legacy is starting to become more and more blue (daze, fow, brainstorm, CB/top), these cards are still more affordable than vintage's top cards.

The exceptional high valued cards in legacy, but that see minimum play : Tabernacle at pendrel vale, grim tutor. Some put Sea Drake in this category. I have no objection in doing so.
So although legacy does have some exceptionally rare and expensive cards, those cards are by no way staples of the format. Most of the decks do not run those cards.


2- Power level gap
In legacy, the power level between a decent mono green elfes deck and a full foil UGW tres.h deck is still lower than between a full powered deck and a non powered deck. Mox, Black lotus, A.Recall create a ridiculous advantage (this is why they are restricted). A powerful mana base does not create such a ridiculous advantage (it does make your deck more powerful). But back to the mono green elf deck. That deck can easily beat most aggro control deck. And guess what? Its cheap to build. Same goes for affinity. Cheap to build, yet decent. Sure, they will probably lose to perfect hands combo, or first/second turn dreadnought, but granted these doesn't happen always, "weaker" decks still have chances of winning in legacy.
You can't go to a decent vintage tournament with a deck like this, because you will get owned. (Ive tried in the past, when i used to play affinity in all format : t2, extended, legacy, vintage) The only format where my affinity couldnt win a game was vintage.

So power level gap is so high in vintage that you do need proxies in Vintage to try to minimize the difference between money player and no money player.



All this come from personal experience. Ive lose games to the worst t2 junk. Yet those junks were able to beat me.

When a format needs proxies to bring in new players, it means the format is in a real mess. Legacy is not in that mess. Vintage is (and this is due, not ofthe format, but because of the rarity of the top cards, which were mistakes. Cards like moxen, blotus and recall would never get printed in modern magic) Legacy, is in the middle of old magic and new magic. It features all our old favorites, including recent prints. Plus, banlist removes everything unfair out of the format, or anything unaffordable that can create a degenerate format.

Thus, Legacy needs no proxies because of the reasons summed up earlier. It is accessible (compared to vintage, and to other format. Card rarity and card price),and because power level gap between best and worst is less than in vintage, because legacy is not shaped by some cards to a point where it is play them or lose to them.

If you believe that proxying legacy would bring more players, how about proxying T2 and Extended? The reasons why i dont play T2? Because it keeps rotating. Moneywise, T2 is the most expensive format.

Some say we should proxy Legacy because Wizard doesn't care about it. The've did some GP for us, some rare covering (Between dreadstill and TA IE). Cards printed in newer sets have more chance seeing play in legacy than in vintage in my opinion. Plus, Legacy tournaments are sanctionned and we get some textless rewards. If you want a format that is on the front line, you should switch to T2. That's where all the "pros" are. So if you want to compete at that level, go there.
Vintage is the only format not covered by Wizard (or at least not in a long time).

Robert
EDIT : I just noticed the title that is Proxies at unsanctioned tournaments.
If you are a tournament organizer and are planning in making a non sanctionned tournament, do whatever you wish because Wizard doesn't give a crap about you. You could even make your own rules!
That said, i probably would still go to a non sanctionned tournament with proxies. (Although i am against proxies in legacy). I see no contradictions in doing so, just saying proxies are not needed. I would definately not go to a tournament where the dci rules are not enforced

[TheRock]

If you openly admit to saying cards like Tarmogoyf, Phyrexian Dreadnought, and saying decks that run >6 duals and >6 fetches are good for this format, and you want the format to grow in your area, then proxies are a mandatory protocol.

It probably isn't going to be good for the format in the much longer run, but this isn't a format filled with power, Bazaars, and Workshops like Vintage is. However, I've generally found that our Legacy decks contain quite a few more $15 and up cards in them then most Vintage decks contain.

What is definitely debatable is how many proxies a good Legacy tournament should allow since whatever number you decide will DRASTICALLY change what decks will be played frequently and what decks succeed and fail.

[Citrus-God]

Vintage and proxying is good. I barely had to spend any more further money once I had Rituals, Fetchlands, Duals, FoWs, BS, etc.. etc..

With Legacy, I always have to spend money. I blew around like 500+ bucks on Landstill... fuck that now. With 500 bucks, I could get myself a new iPod or like add it to my poker bankroll. I rarely buy cards anymore; I just grind for staples.

Besides that, 5c Thresh, is really pricey. I would run Thoughtseize, but, I'm cheap. Mana base is

4 Strand
4 Delta
2 Tundra
2 Trop
1 Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 CoB

That's 350 dollars right there. Then we move onto

4 Goyfs
4 FoW
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords
3 SDT
4 Counterbalance

That's around 314 bucks.

Thats 664 dollars. I can pay a years worth for my phone bill with that.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I absolutely hate proxies. I really don't care as much when other people use them, but they feel so unlucky and gross to play with.

I can see the harm in allowing them in tournaments though. Like has been said here, I don't want to play against Sneak Attack + Zodiac Dragon, especially when we're testing decks for the GP. Right now people buy the cards for a specific deck (that is already good) and play with them. Sure it's good to playtest against random jank, but seeing all sorts of crap like that would be very stupid.

[rockout]

I expect to see more faerie stompy if proxies are allowed. Go Go. Heck I might even play it.

[Citrus-God]

Faerie Stompy might be a great deck to consider. It can potentially win aaginst every match-up... except against itself.

But this also allows T2 and Extended players who don't have much invested in this format to test for the GPs as well.

[ssilver]

At the local tournament I co-run, we allow 4 proxies because about 80% of the people at the tournament are underage, and therefore have no job. No job = no money unless your parents give you it, and no money = no good decks. Overall proxies help to un-jankify decks by helping people to actually make real decks.

BTW, I'm pretty sure that MWS IS illegal, they banned the discussion of it on the main magic forum, and the guy whose project it was wasn't updated it for years

[GreenOne]

It's not like our format has a low number of playable decks, but there are some decks that are underplayed because of money issues. This is just bad for a format, so i'd allow proxies.
Without proxies, people is encouraged to buy the staples of the format, and play the decks that those cards allow them to play.
This actually makes decks that doesn't use the usual card pool to be underplayed. I'm thinking about Imperial Aluren, Imperial Painter, Faerie Stompy, etc.

[Seriously]

With 500 bucks, I could get myself a new iPod or like add it to my poker bankroll. I rarely buy cards anymore; I just grind for staples.

Besides that, 5c Thresh, is really pricey. I would run Thoughtseize, but, I'm cheap. Mana base is

4 Strand
4 Delta
2 Tundra
2 Trop
1 Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 CoB

That's 350 dollars right there. Then we move onto

4 Goyfs
4 FoW
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords
3 SDT
4 Counterbalance

That's around 314 bucks.

Thats 664 dollars. I can pay a years worth for my phone bill with that.

if money is a concern, as it is with most people, as it is with me. there is always ebay. sure you might have to bid on a few different auctions for the same card, or buy partial playsets, but it will save you money than just buying them outright.

4 Strand
4 Delta
2 Tundra
2 Trop
1 Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 CoB

average $300

4 Goyfs
4 FoW
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords
3 SDT
4 Counterbalance

average $255

total, thats $555, not really that much more than what you said you spent on landstill. but its over $100 less than what you quoted, but $100 could get you a 12GB name brand video/mp3 player. $500 on an ipod is a bit much, considering the rate those things break down.

I dont have a job, I stay home and take care of the kid, my wife works. she gives me a $6 montly allowance and I have to spend that wisely. I have UGr Thresh, RB Goblins and 2 land Belcher. I have built these decks, that I am very proud of, out of christmas or birthday money, selling things around the house I dont use or need anymore, selling off decks I dont play anymore or selling off all of my cards that I dont use or dont work well in legacy. I've waited for the last year for the prices to drop on mp3 players before I got a replacement one, choosing instead to work on building my decks.

its all about priorities, if I had $500 spare cash, for whatever odd reason. I could build a good legacy deck, get a $500 ipod or blow the $500 on whatever else interests I had. but if I spent $500 on misc nonsense like a bunch of new shoes, lavish dinners out and stupid junk and then turned around and built a proxy legacy deck, I'd think I was an asshole.

[Afro]

You realize that the Vintage scene as a whole is figuring out that the whole "lets allow unlimited proxies so we increase the player base and get better turnouts at tournaments" is backfiring and may actually be hurting attendance, right?

Hell, at the last Hadley tournament a player didn't take Tundras for his second place finish when he needs them to build the deck he was playing. He took the cash because he knows he can just borrow stuff from locals and will eventually build the deck when he gets around to it. Proxies are no different here.

Magic is an expensive hobby no matter if you play Vintage, Legacy, Ext, Standard, Draft or even just play casually. I own pretty much EVERY Legacy staple and not much more outside of EDH and casual decks. I would love to play T2 or extended but don't want to invest in shitty mana bases that cost a fortune and rotate all the time. You don't see me begging for proxies.

The key is pick a format that will work within one's budget. Don't spread yourself too thin over multiple formats and you can have a great collection for decks in the desired formats. That is often many people's problem...they feel they should be able to play every format and play any deck they want at any time but it isn't feasible for anyone, myself included.

[DeathwingZERO]

Allowing proxies and allowing unlimited proxies are two different things. A good solid number for Legacy would be 10 proxies, which in most cases covers the most expensive cards: duals and staples. The standard for Vintage was always 13, because of all of Power 9 plus a deckset of Power 4.

Personally, 13 is the limit I would impose on anything non-sanctioned. Past that, and nobody really cares much about their collection, as stated. But if you keep them "honest" with their decks, they'll look into actually completing them with the prizes, rather than just taking the cash.

But those that would just borrow and play for just the cash aren't the ones that will stick around in any given format, only the ones that make them money. I have always considered them the "PT Dropouts", as they have the ego and ambition of a Pro Tour player, just not the drive and dedication to both get and stay there. Money for nothing, essentially.

EDIT: Also, bear in mind this is not a long term thing, anywhere. The inclusion of proxies should be to BUILD your format and establish it, not carry it through that phase into people expecting it to always be there. This ties into my whole blip about keeping people honest with their decks. If they know they'll need to complete it soon, they'll be more inclined to do so.

[rleader]

You realize that the Vintage scene as a whole is figuring out that the whole "lets allow unlimited proxies so we increase the player base and get better turnouts at tournaments" is backfiring and may actually be hurting attendance, right?


It seems the people arguing that have a different idea of what a sucessful magic scene is though: most legacy players seem happiest with weekly events with 16-30 people that cost $5 to enter.

Menendian and co. seem to want to replicate the PTQ scene and become [bigger] magic celebs. That seems unlikely with or without proxies.

Just my perception of that debate.

I haven't read Bleiweiss' article though (no premium).

[from Cairo]

That is often many people's problem...they feel they should be able to play every format and play any deck they want at any time but it isn't feasible for anyone, myself included.

Agreed.

Proxies are great for testing with a group of friends, and building an expected gauntlet to play test against. With a little bit of time invested out side of tournament play one can easily get a feel for what does and does not work for them and then build a list of cards they need to construct a deck. Nothing in this format is that expensive, and the staples are seen in tons of decks (IE: the 40 duals, 20 fetches, FOW, Tarmogoyf) so once a player works up to having a full set of them there's usually only a handful of mid-priced cards they need to pick up to construct anything in the format.

[Citrus-God]

You realize that the Vintage scene as a whole is figuring out that the whole "lets allow unlimited proxies so we increase the player base and get better turnouts at tournaments" is backfiring and may actually be hurting attendance, right?

I don't think it's the proxies thing; I think it's the perception of how the format is played how and the relevance of now. Legacy is maybe neglected because Wizards only sponsors like 1-2 GPs every 1-2 years. Vintage isn't working out for Wizards because due to the lack of availability. Besides that, 15 proxies is all you will ever need for Vintage. For Legacy, I believe 10 is the right number. Maybe 13-15.

@Meandeck using this as a ploy to become pros: Not a chance. You only become a pro when you're playing a format Wizards sponsors, which means no proxies. Maybe this may help with prize support creating a PTQ-like scene, but no more beyond that.


if money is a concern, as it is with most people, as it is with me. there is always ebay. sure you might have to bid on a few different auctions for the same card, or buy partial playsets, but it will save you money than just buying them outright.

4 Strand
4 Delta
2 Tundra
2 Trop
1 Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 CoB

average $300

4 Goyfs
4 FoW
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords
3 SDT
4 Counterbalance

average $255

total, thats $555, not really that much more than what you said you spent on landstill. but its over $100 less than what you quoted, but $100 could get you a 12GB name brand video/mp3 player. $500 on an ipod is a bit much, considering the rate those things break down.

I was referring to a 120 GB. Those are like 250 bucks. Still, 400 bucks could pay for my phone bill for a year. Kids love to abuse those things.


I dont have a job, I stay home and take care of the kid, my wife works. she gives me a $6 montly allowance and I have to spend that wisely. I have UGr Thresh, RB Goblins and 2 land Belcher. I have built these decks, that I am very proud of, out of christmas or birthday money, selling things around the house I dont use or need anymore, selling off decks I dont play anymore or selling off all of my cards that I dont use or dont work well in legacy. I've waited for the last year for the prices to drop on mp3 players before I got a replacement one, choosing instead to work on building my decks.

I don't either. I rely on my 20 bucks a week from me parents, but that goes towards bus fare for school.


its all about priorities, if I had $500 spare cash, for whatever odd reason. I could build a good legacy deck, get a $500 ipod or blow the $500 on whatever else interests I had. but if I spent $500 on misc nonsense like a bunch of new shoes, lavish dinners out and stupid junk and then turned around and built a proxy legacy deck, I'd think I was an asshole.

How would that make you feel like an arse? You running a deck full of proxies? The problem here is obviously you, so this doesn't mean that having proxy tournaments will destroy everybody's fun just because you'd feel like an ass for running a proxy heavy deck.



verbal warning for homosexual slurs---frogboy

I meant it in the Katy Perry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWbLkXhGEmo) kinda way. : (

[frogboy]

I test with proxies all the time. The 'proxies hurt attendance' factor is an interesting question that I haven't had time to study.


It seems the people arguing that have a different idea of what a sucessful magic scene is though: most legacy players seem happiest with weekly events with 16-30 people that cost $5 to enter.

This is perceptive. I would rather play a seven to nine round tournament than a random small event, but would go to the small event if I didn't have anything else to do. But, I know many people who just want to focus on increasing weekly turnout.


But those that would just borrow and play for just the cash aren't the ones that will stick around in any given format, only the ones that make them money.

This isn't quite accurate. I don't really care what format I'm playing as long as I'm playing Magic, so I just play in whatever format has the biggest tournaments. I would pretty much always take a cash equivalent than cards, even at a slight discount, though, for pretty much the same reason as that Hadley guy, and if I knew all tournaments for T1 would be 13 proxy I would never own a piece of power.

[Afro]

I don't think it's the proxies thing; I think it's the perception of how the format is played how and the relevance of now. Legacy is maybe neglected because Wizards only sponsors like 1-2 GPs every 1-2 years. Ghey. Vintage isn't working out for Wizards because due to the lack of availability. Besides that, 15 proxies is all you will ever need for Vintage. For Legacy, I believe 10 is the right number. Maybe 13-15.

You realize that with 15 proxies in Vintage you get all the super expensive stuff but are left with buying Legacy staple cards that are still expensive? I just don't understand how this helps and maybe this is why there still isn't a large influx of Vintage players. If you have to own all the Legacy staples anyway why not just play Legacy?

[Citrus-God]

You realize that with 15 proxies in Vintage you get all the super expensive stuff but are left with buying Legacy staple cards that are still expensive? I just don't understand how this helps and maybe this is why there still isn't a large influx of Vintage players. If you have to own all the Legacy staples anyway why not just play Legacy?

Metagame? Some people aren't happy with Counterbalance/Top and the surge of pure aggro decks in Legacy. Vintage has lots of fun things to tamper with right now, such as 4 Ad Nauseam Tendrils, Mystic Remora Meditation.Dec, Tezzeret.Dec, Control Slaver, BUG Fish, 5/3, Stax, Staxless Stax and other randomness. Besides that, there's more interactivity in a Drain mirror compared to that of a Thresh mirror.

You keep the same pool of cards for like ever. I've been using 5-6 Fetchlands, FoW, Volcanic Islands, Underground Seas, minor restricted cards in like every deck

[xsockmonkeyx]

Proxies are an ok idea if you dont go nuts with them. Im for the convenience aspect as much as the budget side. Having a half dozen or so wild cards makes managing your collection much easier for tournaments. It's not just having access to expensive playsets available, Im talking about stuff like 5 mins before the tourney and nobody has any spare Grips for your sideboard kind of thing.

Proxies improve the quality of the tourney's card pool, as the cards/decks that are intended to be played in the tourney get to be played. The quality of the tourney is better as it's more representative of the format.

I see nothing wrong with playing a tourney with Phyrexian Furnacenoughts.

[Captain Hammer]

Skeggi, no I don't think proxies would cause the prices of the actual to fall in teh least.

Why would it? People will always want the actual cards, proxies or no. Actually by proxying the money cards first, people after playing with them a bit will feel more inclined to get them.

Look at vintage, every nonsantioned vintage touranments allows for up to 10 proxies, some up to 15!!

Yet the price of power has actually gone up since then, not down.


I'd like to hear why exactly Wizards makes money on Legacy. I can't think of any way at all.

Legacy makes Wizards TONS of money.

Legacy is the ONLY reason I play magic. If legacy went away, then I would quit magic as well. The idea of constantly building new decks each and every year, only to get them outdated by next year doesn't appeal to me in the least.

And guess what, because I didn't quit magic, I play in occasional drafts, I buy cards for casual legacy and casual multiplayer games, and I of course buy cards like Thoughtseize and Sower of Temptation and Tarmogoyfs and lots of other singles.

[jazzykat]

If others can proxy Legacy cards then I want to proxy Standard and Extended cards...

[sunshine]

Most of this has probably already been said/refuted, but here goes anyway.

I'm fine with allowing players to proxy for a tourney especially in my area where Legacy is not too popular. Honestly, I would rather play against a proxied up DTB than some random standard/extended deck or worse. It makes for more competitive tournaments and thus truer tests of skill rather than the size of ones collection.

Also, I feel that allowing new players to play with proxies is a great way to introduce people into a format with a relatively high entrance costs that would otherwise be prohibitive. Once they get hooked they'll sack up and buy the real things.

[4eak]

Proxies lower the cost to play. Removing the cost barrier would certainly enable players who previously were unwilling to pay the price to play. Proxies would increase the number of players, and it should increase the overall quality of decks.

Competitive players who are concerned about playing against as many decks of the highest quality as they can would benefit from allowing proxies.

Only a card collector should honestly be against the use of proxies, and that isn't because they are so concerned about improving the competitive aspects of a format, but because they are trying to protect the monetary value of their cards.

I really don't care about card value. I play for the game, not the collection. I want to play against optimized decks (perfect mana bases, no missing cards, etc.), I want to play against the best possible decks (regardless of their cost), and I want to play against as many opponents as possible. Proxies would improve competitive play in these aspects. Go proxies!




peace,
4eak

[Sims]

Pros and Cons aside, who really cares?

When it comes down to it, most of the big prize tourneys are sanctioned and this discussion becomes entirely moot. One way or another you're going to be playing either a full deck or an underpowered deck at the real gig. Unlike Vintage, I don't forsee most Legacy tournaments becoming unsanctioned. With Total rating becoming a bit more important now, and Legacy being calculated into that, on top of MPR for players whom do branch out across into the other formats or wish to collect/trade... What purpose serves the players for playing in non-sanctioned events aside from simply testing? If testing is your primary goal there are ways of going about it aside from a tournament environment. I know, some people play better when something is on the line, but for a lot of players there is more on the line at an event that involves cash/prizes and rating as opposed to one that's just some testing that has the aside of winning some cash or cards.

Do proxies help in certain regards? Certainly. They do lower the barrier for entry and they allow for a much more competitive testing because the decks are all "top tier" provided the player can pilot appropriately. However from a collector's standpoint (and there are a lot of people, myself included, that collect and not just play for the fun) and from a benefits standpoint, it doesn't make much sense to me to give up sanctioning for rating (which mine sucks) and MPR just to get testing that I can get from borrowing cards or doing proxies with my test group. Most of the cards necessary for me to play any of the concoctions i'd test I can borrow from my playgroup if I wnt to play it in a tournament setting, and I have every intention of buying things that I will use in decks, even if they have only few uses, because I do enjoy the collection aspect of the game.

tl;dr: I don't think proxies will give you the effect you are looking for in the long run. They're fine in testing settings, but I don't think they belong anywhere near a tournament, primarily because now that I have the ability to play in sanctioned events even locally, I would rather not give them up for the ability to write on a basic land to play the stuff I don't own.

[Enigma]

I have good job and no problem getting any card that I need for a deck.

But it sucks playing against decks that my opponents themselves are unhappy with because they couldn't run the cards, like Force of Wills and Fetchlands that they wanted to run.

I would much rather play against optimized good powerful decks that my opponent's are completely happy with, than against decks thrown together with whatever cards that player had available to them.

So yes, I'm down with proxies. I think it would encourage more players to play legacy and play in legacy tournaments. And I think it would lead to better decks and a better metagame overall.

I think we should come up with strict rules for Proxies though.

For example, to very clearly, NEATLY and LEGIBLY write down the cards name on an alternate card with minimal or no text. I personally think completely textless basic lands are perfect for this purpose.

And to also bring a sheet or maybe the xerox of the original card with a player with all the information on the card, it's full text, casting cost and card type, that they can give to the opponent upon playing the card, so the opponent knows exactly what was just played.

I also think that World Championship edition cards are prefectly fine and should be legal proxies as they really are impossible to tell apart from regular cards based on the sleeve backs.
Agree with you. I do not care facing good decks. Actually, it's what I want. I want to face decks that has been fully optimized without restriction of money. I also think everyone should be able to play the same fucking deck as I do if they want, even if a Dreadnought's playset worth 120$.

PM

[Solaran_X]

I don't know why legacy should be played with proxies. It's perfectly understandable in T1, where a single card can cost hundreds of euros/dollars thus really giving the edge to people with money and p9's. Legacy has some random 1-ofs which barely hit 100$, and those cards aren't widely played at all.

Here in Finland we basically have no unsanctioned legacy or vintage events at all. I guess it's a bit different in the states and I might be lacking some insight on this issue.
I'm recently gotten some interest spurred in the Pittsburgh-area in Legacy, by getting the owner of the closest store to run monthly 10-proxy Legacy events. Now, this has spread to a second store in the region.

With the permission of proxies in unsanctioned events, it always people who are interested in the format to experiment without a massive investment - just in case they don't like it.

There are plenty of cards that are good in Legacy for various reasons, but uncommonly played because of availability and (in direct corrolation) price. Cards such as Grim Tutor ($150+), Rolling Earthquake ($60+), Ravages of War ($100+), Imperial Recruiter ($100+), and Sea Drake ($40+) - all of which are typical 4-ofs or 3-ofs in decks that run them (although the decks are rare because the availability of the real cards is very limited - especially the P3K cards).

With cards like that stacked on top of dual lands ($25-$40 each for Revised) and others such as Tarmogoyf ($20+) and Force of Will ($25+)...the cost of entry into Legacy is still very formible - especially if someone is just experimenting with the format and isn't sure if they're going to stick to it.

[rockout]

If others can proxy Legacy cards then I want to proxy Standard and Extended cards...

I like that idea.

[Afro]

To add a couple things onto what Sims said.

The Albany Legacy scene completely died when our local store closed it doors back around when Ravnica came out. We had no where to play and many of us took a break from the game myself included. We all kept our cards and I started to dabble into T2 FNMs at another store. Soon we had enough interest at the FNMs to just test Legacy decks with Legacy faithful from the old store.

Eventually this store would cease holding FNM and Magic tournaments all together. The few of us (5 or so) got permission from the owner to do our own tournaments and things went on from there. We started unsanctioned and usually didn't have enough to get a 8 man tournament going but slowly word grew that people were having tournaments and many of the old T2 players stopped by to play.

These players obviously didn't have ANY legacy staples but with us regulars lending cards and entire decks out we have grown to easily getting 15 players every Friday. Sure we still lend out 3-4 decks and plenty of play sets of duals but about once a month or so we see a new face that wants to learn the format and play for a cash prize. Proxies are not needed for local tournament play, just a resilient group of players who want to promote the format and the local scene. Watcher gave up playing so we could even get it sanctioned! We used to bring 3-5 people from Albany to upstate or Mass tournaments but now we are reaching close to 10. We got close to 10 other people wanting to invest in dual lands, fetches, and FoWs because they saw what we all do in this format, FUN!

No one wants to play with Sharpied basic land regardless if you have the cards or not. I am all for spreading the format and community. I have a LOT of money invested in this format but by doing so I have sacrificed my involvement in all others. Sometimes that is the price you pay.

[Isamaru]

I think Sims and Afro said it best. And I don't think saying that proxies somewhat decrease the attraction of owning the actual cards is slippery slope argument.

[Seriously]

why does everyone keep assuming that if they allow proxies, theres going to be a flood of tier 1 decks for them to play against. chances are, the really good players already have the cards they need and have been playing for awhile. and that, as another poster previously point out, you'll most likely see more random jank instead, like sneak attack + zodiac dragon.

allowing proxies to attract new players to legacy isnt what I would consider the best idea. you dont start off playing legacy, you start off playing type 2 and then graduate to extended/legacy. it costs just as much to play some tier 1 type 2 decks, so I dont see why people keep bringing up the cost issue.

[juventus]

Actually, in Rochester the majority of magic players started out playing legacy (like me). =P

[moxpearl]

This thread has been getting a lot of discussion on the ManaDrain regarding vintage, but I didn't ever think the discussion would ever happen with Legacy. Every argument people are making in support of proxies for Legacy could apply to Extended and Standard - more competive tournaments, entry into the format is easier, expensive cards, flexibility to play more decks, etc.

This is a collectible card game, and the intangible reason why people enjoy the game is because they have pride in their collections, playing cards they own, and participating in the DCI ratings and official tournaments. Sure duals, goyfs, and noughts are expensive, but it's winning them or finally getting them into your deck that makes the game all the more fun. It's a slippery slope, and for those that didn't/couldn't read Ben B.'s article on SCG, he explains a phenomenom with vintage in how proxies could have led to its downfall in the U.S.

Legacy is growing, and gaining recognition with Grand Prixes and being a format at Worlds. Let's please not go down the path of proxies in Legacy.

[Captain Hammer]

Yes, a certain pride comes from owning the actual cards.

But that's precisely WHY the value of legacy staples won't go down in the slightest just because stores started to allow proxies in their tournaments. The prices of Vintage power actually shot upwards ever since they started allowing 10-15 proxies at all nonsanctioned tournaments.

There really is no reason for anyone to get upset over proxies. It won't effect card prices. If any thing, the prices of staples like Tarmogoyfs and FoWs will go up because more people will try them out in their decks and realize just how good they are and eventually will fork over the money to get them.

Frankly, I'm sick of facing off against players playing "legacy decks" but playing mostly basic lands and terramorphic expanses to support 3 color manabases. I don't get any satisfaction beating down with Goyf a player playing a Watchwolf because they couldn't afford Goyfs of their own.

I want to play against good optimized tuned decks because then, winning the local tourney would actually mean something, it would make me a better player.

I want to know that if I win the tournament, it's because I had the most skill, rather than the most legacy staples.

[Citrus-God]

why does everyone keep assuming that if they allow proxies, theres going to be a flood of tier 1 decks for them to play against. chances are, the really good players already have the cards they need and have been playing for awhile. and that, as another poster previously point out, you'll most likely see more random jank instead, like sneak attack + zodiac dragon.

While proxies were allowed in T1, the decks I immediately built were Meandeck Gifts, Slaver and Pitch Long. While playing Meandeck Gifts at tournaments, I faced tons of Gifts mirrors, Slaver, Uba Stax and random Fish builds packing Null Rods. So say the least, I was in quite a tough meta for a small showing.

And if players want to learn a new game in a new meta, they would obviously pick up a good and known deck first. This allows them to understand the fundamental turn and concepts of Legacy and why the best decks are designed that way. So I am a firm believer that nobody should ever build a rogue deck without a firm understanding of the metagame, format and card pool. So Sneak Attack and Zodiac Dragon won't be played because if they're smart and realize that the presence of Aggro Loam, Vial Goblins, TES, Goyf Sligh and Dragon Stompy exists, they'll be walking themselves into a myriad of BEBs and Hydroblasts.


allowing proxies to attract new players to legacy isnt what I would consider the best idea. you dont start off playing legacy, you start off playing type 2 and then graduate to extended/legacy. it costs just as much to play some tier 1 type 2 decks, so I dont see why people keep bringing up the cost issue.

I started out with Legacy. It wasn't a cost issue at the time because Duals and FoWs were 15 bucks at the time, fetchlands were 6-10 bucks each, and everything else was also super affordable. I also got lucky and traded a Mishra's Workshop I had owned for a ton of good cards to start out with.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Frankly, I'm sick of facing off against players playing "legacy decks" but playing mostly basic lands and terramorphic expanses to support 3 color manabases. I don't get any satisfaction beating down with Goyf a player playing a Watchwolf because they couldn't afford Goyfs of their own.

I want to play against good optimized tuned decks because then, winning the local tourney would actually mean something, it would make me a better player.

I want to know that if I win the tournament, it's because I had the most skill, rather than the most legacy staples.

Then your tournament needs to give out better prizes. I had the most fun time ever stomping on crappy reanimator decks to win a set of goyfs.

[4eak]

@ Sims


I don't think proxies will give you the effect you are looking for in the long run. They're fine in testing settings, but I don't think they belong anywhere near a tournament, primarily because now that I have the ability to play in sanctioned events even locally, I would rather not give them up for the ability to write on a basic land to play the stuff I don't own.

Basically, proxies don't have the effect you are looking for as a collector -- but for those of us not concerned with the value of our cards, it still does have the effect we are looking for which is: increased skill in play with more opponents.

Thailand is a perfect example. Nobody here owns Magic cards. We take high-res images and make our own (hehe, the pirates here are pretty good at duplicating). We still play lots of Legacy, and we still have prizes (cash). No one here would play if they had to pay for the cards, but our proxies enable Legacy to exist out here.

Instead of junky t2 ports, we play top decks. Money is not the limitation in our environment--only skill.

@ Afro


These players obviously didn't have ANY legacy staples but with us regulars lending cards and entire decks out we have grown to easily getting 15 players every Friday. Sure we still lend out 3-4 decks and plenty of play sets of duals but about once a month or so we see a new face that wants to learn the format and play for a cash prize. Proxies are not needed for local tournament play, just a resilient group of players who want to promote the format and the local scene.

Lending decks is the same thing as allowing proxies. For the time you lent them your deck or cards, you accepted that they could legitimately play in your tournament even if they don't actually own the cards. That is definitionally allowing proxies.

Your illustration is an argument for proxies.


@ Captain Hammer

I want to know that if I win the tournament, it's because I had the most skill, rather than the most legacy staples.

Exactly. That is gaming. Proxies enable competition, and it fulfills those expectations.




peace,
4eak

[Skeggi]

And seriously people, get off the whole "get a job" bullshit. People don't live in the same areas, and generally don't make the same money or have the same living situations. A naive and ignorant statement such as this based on social and economic standings is not a good defense for being more deserving of the hobby.

You my friend, have a skewed vision of the world. We all live in a capitalistic society: this means you have to pay before you play. You're right about the fact that this is a hobby. It's not about stuff people need like food or shelter. According to your logic people who have limited means are allowed to download music and movies from the internet? While people who have worked for it should pay for it? There's a reason why communism doesn't work, buddy.


I'd like to hear why exactly Wizards makes money on Legacy. I can't think of any way at all. As far as I know, GPs only cost them money. The only factor that's there, is probably keeping the interest in magic overall.
I wasn't saying the GP made Wizard's money. I'm saying good cards in new sets do. The point with the GP illustrated that Wizard's does give at least a certain amount of shit about Legacy.


Skeggi, no I don't think proxies would cause the prices of the actual to fall in teh least.

Why would it? People will always want the actual cards, proxies or no. Actually by proxying the money cards first, people after playing with them a bit will feel more inclined to get them.

Well, because if proxies would be allowed at every tournament, alot less people would go out and actually buy the cards. There is no reason for them to actually get them, I know a ton of people who wouldn't. But, ofcourse, we're both speculating here.

Also, the fact that some cards are more difficult to come by, like Imperial Recruiter, Ravages of War, Sea Drake, Moat, Sinkholes and so on and so forth have an actual effect on the meta. I don't think there's a reason to disturb that; why let people have crazy decks with 8 Armageddon effects and stuff like that.

[Captain Hammer]

Well, because if proxies would be allowed at every tournament, alot less people would go out and actually buy the cards. There is no reason for them to actually get them, I know a ton of people who wouldn't.

Here's the thing. There's tons of players out there who love the idea of playing with all their old cards, and powerful commons like Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolts and Dark Rituals but then take one look at the legacy metagame's requirements for several duals and force of wills, and don't bother with the format.

So I think plenty of people would try legacy if they could proxy up duals and FoWs. And then eventually, they'll buy the cards.

And most people don't play with proxies for ever. They proxy a card for a while and if they like it, they eventually save up and get the card. Because it always feels better and more fun to have the actual card, than to play with a proxy of it.

[mercenarybdu]

Half and half...

Good:
-brings up the quota count (LSV and Eudemonia has discussed this several times in the open, if anyone actually played attention)
-gets people through the door to play the format
-clears up misconceptions
-bridges a gap between the majority and the Legacy crowd
-more information to go around about decks and players

Bad:
-How many to authorize? (unless you enjoy living in proxyville)
-prices
-credibilities (how many will it kill, if it were rampant?)

[DeathwingZERO]

You my friend, have a skewed vision of the world. We all live in a capitalistic society: this means you have to pay before you play. You're right about the fact that this is a hobby. It's not about stuff people need like food or shelter. According to your logic people who have limited means are allowed to download music and movies from the internet? While people who have worked for it should pay for it? There's a reason why communism doesn't work, buddy.

I'll put out the exact same argument with you as I did when I was talking about this in another thread:

If you think that anybody who is going to be going to a tournament and borrow cards from their friends, tell them they can't play.

Then see how far you really get.

We are already paying for the tournament entry, there's nothing saying we need to pay for the cards we play with.

And for the record, I'm all for piracy. I'm a firm believer that entertainment in general is far too overpriced in our society now.

[Afro]

If you think that anybody who is going to be going to a tournament and borrow cards from their friends, tell them they can't play.

Then see how far you really get.

We are already paying for the tournament entry, there's nothing saying we need to pay for the cards we play with.

I seriously LOLed real hard at this.

To quote a very well said point that hitman made on TMD regarding his stance on proxies in vintage:


I basically quit Vintage because I don't actually need to own any Vintage cards to continue to play and playing a casual format with fake cards stopped appealing to me. Few people care about this format because we play with fake cards. I've heard it said that it encourages new players to try the format without making the monetary investment to start playing but I think this is bunk. When you essentially strip the integrity of the format away by playing with fake cards you lose part of the appeal of the game itself. The game revolves around an actual magic card, its flavor and effect. If you strip half of the allure of the magic card, I think you eventually lose half the appeal of the format that stripped that half of the game away from you.

This is really the only reason I hate the thought of proxies. Magic wouldn't have survived 15 years let alone 5 if you take all the flavor out of the cards (artwork, flavor text, color) and just played with cards that look like these (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/arcana/399). I'll go as far to say as the single most important part of any card is not the CC or it's abilities, but the art and flavor of it. Maro drives this home a lot and when the whole proxie debate gets thrown out there this theory really shines.

You want to test and try out a format then you can boot up Apprentice and MWS for countless hours of 'fun'. Anyone who has played on either of these programs knows that it just isn't the same simply because they are not real cards. I even dabble into Extended and Standard occasionally when the formats significantly change because I like the idea of a "whole new world" type of environment. However because I choose not to buy the cards I don't expect to have any TO allow me to use proxies for $20 cards

[Captain Hammer]

And for the record, I'm all for piracy. I'm a firm believer that entertainment in general is far too overpriced in our society now.

I agreed with you completely till that last bit right there.

Somebody has to pay for the cost of producing that entertainment. You really think they could've spent $150 million dollars to make The Dark Knight if everyone just pirated it? You think they would've spent that much on making Watchmen?

3 of the 4 main tv networks are posting losses, most movie studios are as well. And I certainly don't want to see fake dual lands and fetchlands going around on ebay devaluing my collection. I'm not entirely convinced that piracy is a good thing.

That says Proxies in unsanctioned tournaments =/= Piracy.

[Seriously]

While proxies were allowed in T1, the decks I immediately built were Meandeck Gifts, Slaver and Pitch Long....

I can see how proxies could be used in vintage, Im not denying that. although I think they should be limited to the p9, workshops, bazaars and libraries.


And if players want to learn a new game in a new meta, they would obviously pick up a good and known deck first ... So Sneak Attack and Zodiac Dragon won't be played because if they're smart


logically, yes. realistically, somewhat.

I know many players whose decks would fall into the 'legacy' catagory, but absolutely refuse to play or flat out 'hate' net-decks. citing 'honor' and 'pride' as reasons to build their own decks around cheap combos they think are actually playable. and then when they loose to aggro loam, TES, goblins or whatever. they either wont realize it was a net deck to begin with or get pissed that they lost to one and just go home angry instead of learning anything about strategy or competitive deck building. these people exist in every meta I've ever played in.

in addition to them, there are the players who either dont take the game as seriously as others, or arent up to date on things or just stuck in their ways and would just rather play janky, old, bad versions of tier 1 decks or former tier 1 decks that were hot years ago. these people exist in every meta I've ever played in.




I started out with Legacy. It wasn't a cost issue at the time because Duals and FoWs were 15 bucks at the time, fetchlands were 6-10 bucks each, and everything else was also super affordable. I also got lucky and traded a Mishra's Workshop I had owned for a ton of good cards to start out with.

you can still get some duals and forces for $15 each on ebay. also, if you were just starting out and just getting into legacy, what were you doing with a money card like mishra's workshop that you just happened to have laying around ?

-----



Thailand is a perfect example. Nobody here owns Magic cards. We take high-res images and make our own

there is something deeply saddening, yet incredibly amusing about some 3rd world country playing exclusively with tons of pirated magic cards.

------


There's tons of players out there who love the idea of playing with all their old cards, and powerful commons like Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolts and Dark Rituals but then take one look at the legacy metagame's requirements for several duals and force of wills, and don't bother with the format.


FOW and duals are also old, powerful cards. if they only like bolts, rituals and other power commons chances are they wouldnt proxy correctly anyways. 8 duals and 4 FOW, ok thats 12 proxies. they're going to need more money cards than just those. if they want to play magic with rituals, bolts and STPs, but are put off by simply the prices of FOW and duals, then they probably shouldnt be playing in competitive legacy events anyways. as those are cards that are pretty much needed by good players for good decks. those are cards they should have anyways, no matter what the price.

"I want to play with money cards but I dont want to buy them" seriously, so do I. suck it up and buy them or dont. not buying them and playing with them anyways is like cheating.

-----


And for the record, I'm all for piracy. I'm a firm believer that entertainment in general is far too overpriced in our society now.

yeah, Im all for it too. but this isnt just entertainment, its also a collectors item. $20 for a dvd is insane, a dvd shouldnt ever cost more than $5, ever. but a $20 dual land, is also in investment, that one day I'd like to be able to get my money back out of, if need be.


:wink:

[4eak]

@ Captain Hammer


That says Proxies in unsanctioned tournaments =/= Piracy.

I'd argue otherwise. While I think intellectual property is a complete facade myself (yes, I know the arguments concerning it), what is meant by piracy in this context is copyright infringement.

The unauthorized reproduction and distribution of proxy MTG cards in Thailand is certainly perceived as copyright infringement by WotC (and probably the U.S. judiciary too).

Proxies are a form of piratic copyright infringement.


@ Seriously


there is something deeply saddening, yet incredibly amusing about some 3rd world country playing exclusively with tons of pirated magic cards.

I'm not sure what is deeply saddening or amusing about it.

My point is that there are plenty of people who will play games and tournaments, including Legacy MTG, through the use of proxies, even if they don't actually own the cards or have resources to play under sanctioned and corporately recognized venues.


@ Afro


Magic wouldn't have survived 15 years let alone 5 if you take all the flavor out of the cards (artwork, flavor text, color) and just played with cards that look like these. I'll go as far to say as the single most important part of any card is not the CC or it's abilities, but the art and flavor of it. Maro drives this home a lot and when the whole proxie debate gets thrown out there this theory really shines.

Who says? Maro? Doesn't he have a serious conflict of interest? What body of evidence do you have to justify that sort of claim?

There really is plenty of evidence to the contrary (games have been made and played for quite a while--even when nobody made money off them).

EQ and WoW private servers are perfect examples of pirated/proxied games that have been widely used since nearly the creation of each game. Proxied game content ranges from very different (abusing the game engine only) to near replicas of the retail versions. The aesthetic appeal, strategy, content, and player interaction in proxied games often varies from the retail version (just as our look-a-like proxies and made-up cards compare to official MTG cards), but that doesn't mean the game is going to cease to exist or even shrink. Heck, some games continue today only because players took the game into their own hands and made a new one, such as the use of mods. Not only is the use of proxies a powerful tool for increasing the player base, but it even allows players to improve the game itself. Multiplayer Magic, Type 4, EDH, etc. are good examples of this sort of playermade game evolution, which in essence, is unsanctioned use.

I fail to see why the game is going to die because people start playing with proxies. The value of our cards might change, but I see plenty of evidence to suggest that games do not require "the authentic retail version". Game knock-offs and proxies are abundant.

Proxied game environments can and do thrive.




peace,
4eak

[Skeggi]

If you think that anybody who is going to be going to a tournament and borrow cards from their friends, tell them they can't play.
See? There's no need to proxy. People can just loan cards from their friends. I don't own every card, but my friends and I have a shared card pool. Hurrah.


And for the record, I'm all for piracy. I'm a firm believer that entertainment in general is far too overpriced in our society now.
Well, that's another discussion. But I don't agree :wink:.



Who says? Maro? Doesn't he have a serious conflict of interest? What body of evidence do you have to justify that sort of claim?
Good point, but despite Maro's serious conflict of interest I still agree with Afro and Maro.

[4eak]

@ Skeggi


See? There's no need to proxy. People can just loan cards from their friends. I don't own every card, but my friends and I have a shared card pool. Hurrah.

Lending decks is the same thing as allowing proxies. For the time people were lent/borrowed cards, the lender accepted that the borrower could legitimately play in the tournament even if the person didn't actually own the cards.

If I walk up to a tournament with you, I have no deck with me, and you lend me a deck, then I basically get to play a proxy deck for that tournament. You recognize I don't own the cards, but you don't care. You're willing to let me play anyways, thanks man.

In your example, you only allow "some" cards to be proxied, perhaps cards/decks limited to those owned by other players in the tournament that didn't have a problem with someone playing a deck they didn't possess. This is still a proxy. You made an allowance here, and there wouldn't have been a difference whether they played your deck or a high-quality proxy of your deck.

Having a stable group of Legacy card collector's to loan out decks/cards to newcomers is no different than just using proxies. We all just agree to let the person play the deck, even if they don't really own the cards. We aren't interested in testing their wallets, just their skill. Our Legacy tournaments started out from the borrow/lend perspective as well. Newcomers who couldn't afford the decks would just borrow ours (are we honestly going to turn away players because they don't own the cards?). The few of us with the real cards eventually realized that it didn't matter if other players used our cards or counterfeits; they were essentially doing the same thing -- playing decks/cards they didn't own.

Going to a proxy tournament is the same sort of social contract which you have already drawn up through the lending and borrowing of cards. Borrowing is a form of proxying. Your argument suggests there actually is a need for proxies.

Lastly, not everyone can find people to lend them the cards they need to play the deck of their choice. If you didn't have arbitrary proxy rules, then there could still be a need to make your own proxies where lending is not possible.




peace,
4eak

[Skeggi]

Lending decks is the same thing as allowing proxies.
No it's not. I don't think I have to come up with any backing arguments for this (because you know...by definition you're already wrong), but I'll try nonetheless:

Loaning a deck doesn't take out half the flavor as Afro described.
A loaned deck still is a real deck, so it has less negative impact on the supply/demand market of cards.
Loaned decks still suffer from general shortage of very rare cards: it's pretty hard to loan 4 Imperial Recruiters.

Do you really think I'm against proxying because I want to test people's wallets? -Well, I can tell you: no. Proxies are just yughblrfrl.

[GreenOne]

In your example, you only allow "some" cards to be proxied, perhaps cards/decks limited to those owned by other players in the tournament that didn't have a problem with someone playing a deck they didn't possess. This is still a proxy. You made an allowance here, and there wouldn't have been a difference whether they played your deck or a high-quality proxy of your deck.

I completely agree with you, but proxying is actually a different concept from borrowing to wotc (I don't care anyway). Let's make an example. I love examples.

At a tournament 50% people is playing with borrowed Goyfs. There are 40 borrowed copies of Goyf in the room. Wizards still sold them all.

At a tournament 50% people is playing with proxyed Goyfs. There are 40 proxied Goyfs in the room. Wizards didn't sell them.

[grahf]

In Vintage, I can understand the proxy argument - relatively few people can justify spending thousands of dollars on a fully powered deck. And even so, there are probably not enough physical Lotuses to go around for everyone who would want to play Vintage, if money was not a factor. The number I recall hearing was around 20,000; though I don't recall if that was in reference to the size of the original print run, or estimated current circulation.

Magic is a "collectible" card game. So it has been, and always will be. Rarity and scarity are integral parts of the game, and allowing proxies on a wide scale would remove that aspect. So suck it up and deal with it, I say. And this, coming from someone who considers himself a "budget" player!

Also, I'm sure it's been said before, but Legacy almost seems cheaper in the long run. Staples in Standard seem to go for $20+ each, about the same price as a Force of Will. You'll play that Standard card for a few months to a year, until the meta shifts or it rotates out, then the price will drop like a rock. Force, on the other hand, has been good since the day it was printed, and will continue to be good until the exceedingly unlikely event that Wizards prints something that invalidates it.

The only really ugly part of a Legacy deck investment, to me, are the fetchlands. Though I see their necessity, it's just not a very exciting card effect to dump nearly $100 into a playset. I'm really hoping they go down in price when Onslaught rotates out of Extended this fall.

[4eak]

@ Skeggi


I don't think I have to come up with any backing arguments for this (because you know...by definition you're already wrong

I do enjoy sarcasm, but I prefer that it was more relevant.

Please continue with my definition:

'For the time people were lent/borrowed cards, the lender accepted that the borrower could legitimately play in the tournament even if the person didn't actually own the cards.'

Essentially, 'A proxy is used when a collectible card game player does not own [or possess] a card, and it would be impractical for such purposes to acquire the card.'

To use a loaned deck is to play by proxy. The borrower doesn't own the cards, they are merely temporarily given the right to play in a tournament with a deck they don't own.

Regardless of whether or not the "proxy" cards are borrowed authentic cards or just sharpied lands, the physical authenticity which comprises the proxy is simply not relevant to the fact that it is a proxy at all. What makes a proxy a proxy is that:

a.) You don't own the card
b.) You are authorized to play like you do own the card.

Your case is just a specific type of proxy, but it still qualifies as playing by proxy nonetheless.


Loaning a deck doesn't take out half the flavor as Afro described.[Loaning a deck doesn't take out half the flavor as Afro described.

I've explained that the "flavor" differences (if any at all) between proxies/pirated games and the authentic versions is NOT a factor in the success of a game or its survival. You didn't address this.

Proxies can be made that are nearly indistinguishable forgeries of the real thing. Only the creator (and hopefully user) knows they aren't authentic, but that has little to do with the actual flavor of the game.

Only a collector would have a problem with the difference between a good proxy and the real card. Players seeking only competition, purely for the sake of gaming, or even just card flavor, won't care.


A loaned deck still is a real deck, so it has less negative impact on the supply/demand market of cards.

Just an assumption. There is little evidence that proxies have such a serious impact on the supply/demand curves of games. Even in a vacuumous, perfect market (which we don't even come close to matching), the use of proxies wouldn't necessarily have impact on the supply/demand curve.

Go back to the drawing board. There are a thousand reasons why supply/demand curves change, but we have no real proof that proxies or loaned decks have comparably less or more impact on the market.

Additionally, there are people who just wouldn't play unless it was free. There are people who simply would not have joined in on playing, becoming paying customers even, unless they could start playing it for free.

Free trials for games exist for good reasons.


Do you really think I'm against proxying because I want to test people's wallets?

Yes, I think you do want to test peoples' wallets. You have implicitly argued that people should pay to play; and that is a test of a person's wallet.


@ GreenOne


I completely agree with you, but proxying is actually a different concept from borrowing to wotc (I don't care anyway).

It is only different if the broad use of proxies actually has impact on the number of products WotC sells. Just because an unsanctioned tournament allows proxies doesn't mean WotC actually lost any money in reality. WotC hasn't necessarily missed the opportunity to sell those Goyf's at all. Perhaps that tournament wouldn't have existed if proxies were not allowed in that tournament. Perhaps if that unsanctioned tournament didn't allow proxies it might not even create higher demand for authentic Goyf either.

I would certainly be reluctant to assume WotC's arguments as well. Stakeholders are notorious for overzealously guarding their copyrights, even to their own detriment (a well-documented barrier to both competition and innovation). You often see gut, emotional responses from stakeholders, and not necessarily well-calculated responses based in reality.

Proxying and borrowing certainly have their differences, but even WotC can't posit any solid losses because players chose to use a sharpied land instead of a borrowing a card that was already sold in the first place.

Can there be an honest loss for WotC? Yes. Do we have evidence there is loss because of proxy use? No. There are, however, good examples of games that continue to flourish (and grow) with private, pirated, ripped'off, and proxied versions of the game in use.

Lastly, protecting WotC is not the concern -- protecting the game of MTG is the concern. They aren't necessarily related concepts. Games have lived on long after their creators ceased to exist, support, or make money from the game.

Using proxies in unsanctioned tournaments is unlikely to change the fact that we can play MTG the game.



peace,
4eak

[Skeggi]

Please continue with my definition:

'For the time people were lent/borrowed cards, the lender accepted that the borrower could legitimately play in the tournament even if the person didn't actually own the cards.'

Essentially, 'A proxy is used when a collectible card game player does not own [or possess] a card, and it would be impractical for such purposes to acquire the card.'
Okay. That's your definition. The real definition is that a proxy is a placeholder, and a loaned deck is no such thing.

Your case is just a specific type of proxy, but it still qualifies as playing by proxy nonetheless.
According to your made-up definition.

I've explained that the "flavor" differences (if any at all) between proxies/pirated games and the authentic versions is NOT a factor in the success of a game or its survival. You didn't address this.I didn't have to adress it. You merely mentioned it hasn't been proven. If something hasn't been proven it doesn't mean it's wrong. In fact, in this case, there's a very likely chance it's right. But this is an entirely different debate.

Proxies can be made that are nearly indistinguishable forgeries of the real thing. Only the creator (and hopefully user) knows they aren't authentic, but that has little to do with the actual flavor of the game.
That's just plain forgery. However good forgeries keep the flavor of the game, it's still against my ethics. Besides, the rarity of a card still doesn't matter here.

Just an assumption. There is little evidence that proxies have such a serious impact on the supply/demand curves of games.I see no reason to make such an assumption.

Go back to the drawing board. There are a thousand reasons why supply/demand curves change, but we have no real proof that proxies or loaned decks have comparably less or more impact on the market.Again, the fact that it is or isn't proven is no argument. There is also no proof the other way around.

Additionally, there are people who just wouldn't play unless it was free.
And why would I care about these people? Because they're cheap-skates?

Free trials for games exist for good reasons.True. Magic does have free trials. The cheap-skates can try those. There's also another unofficial format named 'peasant-magic' I suggest they try that.

Yes, I think you do want to test peoples' wallets. You have implicitly argued that people should pay to play; and that is a test of a person's wallet.Okay, let me tell you again: no I don't want to test people's wallets. I couldn't care less. But again: proxying is just yucklbrlrl-esque.

But I think I've made my point clear enough, and you have made yours. It's obvious to see we're not going to change eachother's mind here. Let's agree to disagree :smile:.

[4eak]

@ Skeggi


Okay. That's your definition The real definition is that a proxy is a placeholder, and a loaned deck is no such thing

I didn't just make it up. I had good reason to say what I did. Please, go read up on what the word proxy means. Even my quote from wiki's definition of a card proxy suggests if you don't own the card, and you're allowed to play as if you own the card, then you are playing with a proxy. You have been artificially granted the right to play as if you owned the card when you actually don't -- that is proxying.

Borrowing might be a specialized form of proxying, and it isn't the same as forging your own proxies, but it is still proxying.



Okay, let me tell you again: no I don't want to test people's wallets.

You just said:


And why would I care about these people? Because they're cheap-skates?

...

True. Magic does have free trials. The cheap-skates can try those. There's also another unofficial format named 'peasant-magic' I suggest they try that.

Of course you want to test their wallets. You don't want to compete against them because they don't own the cards (or because they are using a type of proxy of which you don't approve). That is testing wallets, not skill.



Let's agree to disagree

Fair enough.



peace,
4eak

[Gibbie_X]

Type 2 is more expensive than Legacy, in the (slightly) long(er) run. A viable Type 2 deck also costs at least $200.


I don't think this is true right now, I think the Extended decks get that high, but T2 doesn't have 4x Tarmogoyf, which is a reason for proxies in itself. I have expressed my dislike for this card because of the fact that they spiked in price, stayed there, then everyone in every format stated you have to run 4 of me. I don't play vintage, but I may guess that they have better things to worry abut than that card. I bet the most proxied card in theses games in FoW, goyf, and Duals, maybe fetch lands.

But I ranted about goyf too much. Proxies help players get a feel for a deck, and if the tourney is unsanctioned, then why not have them.

[Skeggi]

I don't think this is true right now.
You don't have to think whether it's true or not. It's a fact. Legacy staples don't rotate out so they keep their value. Most standard staples plummit as soon as they're not standard anymore. Now that's pretty expensive: devaluation of cards.

[citanul]

Even my quote from wiki's definition


*frown*
I don't really see Wiki as a reliable source for debate. That just aside.

I myself dislike proxies, simple because I'd hate playing against some person (and maybe get beat) who has spend maybe 20 euro on ink and paper while I spend more on the same deck yet both of us are given the same chances. In theory this isn't a bad thing but then everyone will just do that, I know I would and no one would even care about the real cards.

Also, it's a hobby. Every hobby costs money. Collecting stuff = money sink. Playing competetive sport = money sink (gear, enrollment fee,...). Same goes for magic. You might give the argument: "Maybe he plays another format and we need to attract them to Legacy." I don't think other formats cost less, type2 cards are expensive and they keep rotating which means that you either need to spend more money or have to start trading like a mad man.

I don't think allowing proxies will benefit the format much and should only be used for testing/casual play but not in a tournament scene.

End quote: "I don't go and play Poker with fake money.*

[Bahamuth]

I myself dislike proxies, simple because I'd hate playing against some person (and maybe get beat) who has spend maybe 20 euro on ink and paper while I spend more on the same deck yet both of us are given the same chances. In theory this isn't a bad thing but then everyone will just do that, I know I would and no one would even care about the real cards.

Do you also think you have less chance against a player with a pimped deck? It's the same.


Also, it's a hobby. Every hobby costs money. Collecting stuff = money sink. Playing competetive sport = money sink (gear, enrollment fee,...). Same goes for magic. You might give the argument: "Maybe he plays another format and we need to attract them to Legacy." I don't think other formats cost less, type2 cards are expensive and they keep rotating which means that you either need to spend more money or have to start trading like a mad man.

Who cares if other hobby's cost money? It doesn't oblige us to just force everyone to spend money on Magic. Also, who cares if other formats are more expensive? What does it have to do with Legacy? We're not talking about relative cost here.



End quote: "I don't go and play Poker with fake money.*

That's completely irrelevant. We aren't suggestiong tournaments with proxy's as prizes or something.

[Seriously]

I'm not sure what is deeply saddening or amusing about it.

well, you're in the middle of it, I dont expect you to see the humor of it.



I do enjoy sarcasm, but I prefer that it was more relevant.


he wasnt being sarcastic. your argument was made of fail.



I don't think this is true right now

do you know much about standard ? do you know how much it cost to build a UB faeries deck a few months ago ?



Tarmogoyf... I have expressed my dislike for this card because of the fact that they spiked in price, stayed there, then everyone in every format stated you have to run 4 of me.

its potentially a 4/5 or 5/6 mid to late game for 1G (thats 2 mana), so why would you not run it if you played green and why would it not spike in price since its an incredibly effective beatstick.

[Omega]

"Lastly, protecting WotC is not the concern -- protecting the game of MTG is the concern. They aren't necessarily related concepts. Games have lived on long after their creators ceased to exist, support, or make money from the game"

If we care about MTG as a game, then WotC is also our concern. If WOTC stops printing, i can guarantee you that Magic, as a game, will die (slowly or not). The cards will still exist, but without any further support, without any improvement.

And if WotC is our concern, then we also know that WotC cares about money.
Legacy as any format, helps WotC sell their cards. When they print cards like tarmogoyfs, we buy them. Some, if not most of us buy boosters when a new set comes out. Most of the legacy players i know go to pre-release. We go to shops. Shops buy cards from Wizards because there are people going there.

Proxy goes against that idea. If we can proxy, why pay? If its free, why pay?

The only reason why some entertainment are expensive is because of the lack of competition, or just because they want to make the most money possible. Ive posted on another forum. Someone whining about how video games are expensive when coming out (69.99$) and how they drop after some months. Why put a price lower if actually someone will buy it at 69.99$? If a shop can sell things 2x higher, why should they sell them less? If no one would buy it, the price would drop because of the high offer and no demand. Personally, if im not a hardcore gamer, i wont buy a game at that price (i will if i really want the game). Im simply going to wait for the price to drop. Of course, this only work in a perfect market, which doesn't always exist.


But im going back to the REAL topic of this thread, or what i believe it is.
"Proxies in Unsactioned Tournaments"
It clearly says UNSANCTIONED tournaments. If it is your tournament, you can do whatever you want. Wotc doesn't care about how you run your business. They will still occasionally do some GP for us. But those GP will be non proxy.

[citanul]

Do you also think you have less chance against a player with a pimped deck? It's the same.


No, I find foil cards and pimped decks retarded and a waste of money. This however is just my opinion and is not ment to insult or offend anyone. It's a choice those people made and I respect that. However, assume you let people play proxies, why would I, or anyone for that matter even buy any cards? I can just print them, play and win.



Who cares if other hobby's cost money? It doesn't oblige us to just force everyone to spend money on Magic. Also, who cares if other formats are more expensive? What does it have to do with Legacy? We're not talking about relative cost here.


No it doesn't. But the argument that Legacy is expensive to get into has been brought up several times and is probably the solemn reason why people would proxy in the first place. If they don't play magic, want to but don't want to spend money in it, to bad for them. The examples of other hobbies has been brought up to indicate that whatever you want to do will cost money. The comparison with other formats is to indicate that other formats are not cheaper to get into/stay in and the argument that Legacy is to expensive for Magic players is invalid.



That's completely irrelevant. We aren't suggestiong tournaments with proxy's as prizes or something.


Why should it be irrelevant? There are prizes in a tournament just like in Poker. You spend money to get in a tournament, being the enrollment fee + cards or just cash which you use to bet. Using placeholders in either case, fake money in Poker, is not appreciated by people who have spend the money.

[Seriously]

how many tournaments are actually unsanctioned anyways ? can someone point some out ?

[Benie Bederios]

Just a question. About how many proxies are we talking about here? Vintage is the normal amount 5 or 10 I believe. 8 Of those Proxies are given to the Power Eight( sans Timetwister). It would be really weird if you allow more proxies here then in Vintage, because this format only costs a tenth of Vintage( 2K for a Vintage deck against 200 for Legacy.)

So if it's only 5 Proxies it might work, without upsetting alot of players. I mean a player could proxy 4 Goyf and a Tropical Island or something. For Thresh it would still mean 3 Trop's, some fetches and Force of Will.

15 Proxies or more won't do anything good for the format. Alot of players will be pissed off, because they spent alot of money. Next to that alot of bad players will enter tournaments with decks they didn't test... Wich brings the quality of the format down and more important the funfactor.

My opinion: if you can't afford playing magic then don't. It might sound harsh, but if you can't afford to have a hobby you shouldn't try to bend the rules so you can. Would you ask a tennis organisation to lend out a top-racket( not a cheap one) because otherwise you can't afford the sport?

I think it would be intresting to know how many money in cards everyone in this discussion have.

BB

[Fonzy]

how many tournaments are actually unsanctioned anyways ? can someone point some out ?

Unless I'm hideously mistaken, there's actually only one or two sanctioned Legcay tournaments per year. All the rest are unsanctioned.

[Sims]

Unless I'm hideously mistaken, there's actually only one or two sanctioned Legcay tournaments per year. All the rest are unsanctioned.

Seriously? The Albany area has sanctioned Legacy tournaments weekly, and I know there are many other areas of the world that have Legacy weekly if not monthly, Sanctioned.

Unless you mean a WotC endorsed tournament, which you're right....1 a year if you're lucky... but that's not what Sanctioned means in this case.

[DeathwingZERO]

how many tournaments are actually unsanctioned anyways ? can someone point some out ?

All of the weekly tournaments I've ever been to in the Portland area are considered unsanctioned, simply because they are unstable in attendance, so the owners don't want to bother with the paperwork. A few times I've seen sanctioned, but not many. It's all up to the owners.

And really, let's get down to the simple facts here:

Legacy makes WotC NOTHING. I'll concede, we MIGHT be about 1% of their profits (based solely on secondary sales, needing singles opened), but people who are just in this format to play the tournaments and win, they make nothing from them, and they make very little to those who buy entire decks from secondary sources, which would be pretty much all of us.

If you buy boosters, you buy because you like cracking them, not because you want to find card X. If you did, everyone would just call you an idiot and lay out the odds you have of needing to crack boosters until you found 4 of them. With the exception of $50+ cards, you wouldn't break even, even buying those boosters at cost.

Eternal formats are driven by out of print cards, and sometimes get new stuff in that we buy in secondary sources. Even with those, we are very much the minority that are grabbing them up. And WotC releases millions of copies of each card worldwide now. There will never be a shortage of a particular card, there will only be a high price for demand (re: Tarmogoyf).

Single cards are not profit to Wizards. They are profits to the stores and players that crack the boxes to supply them. They do that with Sealed, Standard, and to an extent, Extended formats, which are sanctioned tournaments. NOT Legacy and Vintage. We take from their market when we need it, and that's all. If WotC had to even SLIGHTLY rely on us to make them money with their primary products, they'd be SOL, and pretty much give up on us.

Please accept this distinction before you start showing signs of foot-in-mouth syndrome. WotC would feel no financial damage if the Eternal formats disappeared from their sanctioning in general. Anyone thinking otherwise is simply kidding themselves, as our number of GPs and Pro Tours shows perfectly.

As far as the proxies vs borrowing goes, here's the deal. I'm going to lay out a hypothetical situation that's actually just an exaggeration of what I really do. And by exaggeration, I mean I don't get the chance to play this often.

My buddy and I play in tournaments. He owns a collection that can support putting together at least 6 different upper tier decks at the same time. I haven't needed to buy a single card for a deck in years. He's gotten every single one of these cards from second hand means, never buying a pack in his life, and mostly trading.

I use these decks in tournaments for a year. Every tournament has the option to cash out, or take singles. Let's say for the sake of this I win/top 4 a good portion of the tournaments (because I'm that damn good, obviously), and opt for the cash out, or sell the cards to friends once we leave the store.

I put down about $100 for these tournaments in total. Let's say I came out with about $600 in cash, and some cards I can swap off in the future to friends.

Here's the catch: My buddy doesn't have more than a deckset of any given high end card in his entire collection. Just the fact that his collection has so many options and the format is so widespread, I can pretty much win with anything he's given me. Welcome to Eternal.

Now, this story just countered a number of issues brought up so far:

The first, is that this game costs money. (This is the most important one, as it's obviously the one that hits closest to home for Eternal players)

True, it does. To those who want to OWN what they play with, otherwise it's just entry fees, and skill. All it takes is borrowing one deck, and a good player can win enough to get to the Pro Tour, or in our case, win D4Ds and DLDs all year long.

The harsh reality? This can happen in any format, and it happens a lot more than you might think. And yet WotC is still thriving in Magic sales. One could conclude that WotC has nothing invested in Unsanctioned play, as they've thrived for years off their Sanctioned events, casual players, and collectors.

A single person that knows how to trade and hit single price trends can amass a collection like this in a few months time, and for literally less than pennies on the dollar. And none of that goes to WotC. This ties into the next point.

Second, Eternal formats generally make WotC no money:

We have very little invested in new sets, and typically we'll get them on the secondary market. With the exception of out of print cards, we don't even determine a factor in the market, either. And those OOP cards make WotC nothing. In reality, we support the stores, and they make just as much (if not more, in reality) off the sanctioned events and selling the singles, not unsanctioned tournaments.

Third, players will opt out of actually owning cards, if they can play with proxies all the time/the value of collectible cards may go down due to lack of demand:

This is simply not true. Only those that are in the tournaments for money (and only tournaments at that, they never have their own decks for casual play), will do this. Other players WILL take the cards, they will finish the decks, and they will play them in sanctioned tournaments. The latter is the majority, not the former.

Also, the stores have complete control over the number of proxies, and the ability to go non-proxy whenever they want. If you think too many of the players aren't going to care about their collections, put the fear of inevitability into them, and say the events will go Sanctioned in the future. Chances are many more players are interested in playing in the tournaments than the ones that just want the money.

And if it is a majority that stop playing, chances are you're losing too much money to them as is, and will probably cease tournaments in general. As it is, only the heavily supported stores will do more than break even at best.

As far as the demand/value concern goes, really, I'm laughing. Nobody is going to play in a tournament that isn't going to bring them money, or something they need. The fact that Sanctioned events exist give reason enough to actually complete decks. The existence of Sanctioned events actually put on by WotC would make even more incentive.

Interestingly enough, I think the Eternal formats would have a much harder time trying to support repeated GP events, let alone a PT circuit. This mostly has to do with the fact that our major cards are on a limited span, and a huge portion of them are on the DNR list. If WotC was interested in starting up more large scale sanctioned events, it's pretty much a guarantee they'll have to cut back our card pool.

And don't forget the scarcity of these cards is as much a factor of price as people playing them. The game is collectible, and there's probably more people out there who are sitting on top of Beta duals and P-9 than those playing with them. That's not going to be going away because of lack of demand from tournament players either, because these cards will always get harder to find, not easier.

Now, onto the flavor issue:

When it comes down to proxies, most players are going to take the lazy route, and just write on a basic card with a pen. A number of stores prefer this, as it's just a matter of reading the card to determine it.

But those who are willing to actually invest in their proxies can make them even better than the original. A buddy of mine has given me a set of proxy P-9 that was done in the textless fashion. I've seen people I play Vintage with take the filler foil cards from the print sheets and paint-pen on P-9 artwork.

Hell, I've gone as far as to paint pictures of my own renditions of dual lands, and will probably get them done in the same fashion my buddy did with his Power proxies. They look sexy as hell, and I will play with my proxies over the real thing every chance I get BECAUSE of the fact that they look better.

But I'm still stuck with paying for the real thing when I get out of those unsanctioned events.

Long post short, if you fear that proxies are going to ruin your metagame, turn it sanctioned, or discontinue proxy use once the format has enough support. Even mixing it up so that major tournaments must be sanctioned and weekly ones proxy-use unsanctioned is fine. A balance between the two would guarantee that tournaments of both types can run strong.

[citanul]

Other players WILL take the cards, they will finish the decks, and they will play them in sanctioned tournaments.


Whatever I said before was ment for Sanctioned tournaments, I also voted positive for the Poll as the original topic mentioned Unsanctioned. I just thought this thread had derailed into Proxies for Legacy in general.

Nice post in general although I might not agree on every part :).

[Fonzy]

Seriously? The Albany area has sanctioned Legacy tournaments weekly, and I know there are many other areas of the world that have Legacy weekly if not monthly, Sanctioned.

Unless you mean a WotC endorsed tournament, which you're right....1 a year if you're lucky... but that's not what Sanctioned means in this case.

That's what I was taking sanctioned to mean in the context of this discussion. Sanctioned events, sponsored by WotC, would mean no proxies, ever (WotC has been quite firm on this for obvious reasons), whereas the requirements for unsanctioned events are pretty much up to the TOs, meaning proxies would be permissible if the TO decided to allow them.

[Skeggi]

Sanctioned means sanctioned by the DCI. There are quite a few tournaments which are DCI sanctioned.

If you organize an unsanctioned tournament, you're allowed to do with it whatever you like: you can even invent a completely different format (like EDH or Peasant), and you can decide for yourself if you want to allow proxies or not. Heck, you can even make a physical round where you have to beat eachother up. It's basically all up to the TO.

The thing is though, if the popularity of unsanctioned tournaments which allow proxies would increase, that would be at the cost of sanctioned tournaments. For me, being against proxies, that would be a bad thing.

[landstill101]

When it comes to proxies, I'm kind mehhh on it just because I would prefer to play against people willing to invest in the game. But in the same sense I'm traveling to a couple of big unsanctioned event before the Chicago grand prix and they all allow proxies. My thinking in this is, I will be able to go to a tourney and will play against all top tier decks because everyone can afford it, while at the same time though people who are proxing up in all likely have not the experience of playing that deck as much as I have played my deck. And with the balance of the format right now, a persons skill level can easily wins games that shouldn't have normally been won. But at the same time, their play skill isn't as good, they are enjoying the format, and hopefully will spend the money to keep playing and join many of us at Chicago.
(I'm heading to Mich this weekend which is proxy and then Columbus on the 15th, I don't think that has proxies)

Oh and where I live(GO OHIO) we have 2 sanctioned tournies a week, one on wednesday and one on friday both legacy averaging around 20-30 people. Very competitive meta, gimme a pm if anyone wants to join.

[ForceofWill]

I was using proxies in a tournament last week but that was only because I left all my cards at home and could't have played without proxies. To me this is about the only time proxies in tournaments are okay. If you want to test a proxie and test a new deck thats fine but just not while you are playing for przes. This leads to people with proxy decks full of expensive cards that they might never buy.