G/B Natural Order Survival [Archive]

Pulp_Fiction

01-20-2009, 01:28 PM

For a long time the card Natural Order has gone overlooked. There have been numerous threads about decks trying to break the card. It is so good, sac a green creature and get another, but I think that with the printing of Progenitus, a 10/10, trample, protection from everything creature, it makes the card even more viable. Here is the link to the old thread for a deck called Secret Swallower:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11029

The deck focused on getting Simic Sky Swallower into play and winning shortly afterwards. There were many different builds, some with blue in them, someone suggested Survival, and I built one that acted as pseudo reanimator. The deck never really went anywhere due to inconsistencies.

Then a few days ago another thread started about Natural Order, introducing Progenitus and sticking the card into an aggro-Elves shell. Here is a link to that thread:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12506.

While I personally am not a fan of that build, Maveric78f posted a VERY interesting Survival list that got me thinking about Natural Order again. Since Progenitus shuffles back into your library when it goes to the grave from anywhere the deck can't function as pseudo reanimator anymore. It seems like Survival of the Fittest is the best fit for the deck. It can either play as super fast reanimator, or act as a typical toolbox Survival deck, or in an even worse scenario, as G/B aggro. None of the options are bad by any means, but when you put all these different strategies together, you don't get a typical deck that only moderately sucks at each of its 3 roles, its actually quite the opposite. It doesn't need Survival to function correctly, and unlike typical Survival lists it doesn't have 10+ 1-of creatures that suck to draw individually. Based off of Maveric78f's initial list this is a (very) slightly tweaked version I have been playing around with:

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Natural Order
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Wall of Roots
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Kitchen Finks
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Shriekmaw
1x Genesis
1x Empyrical Archangel
1x Verdant Force
1x Progenitus
1x Wickerbough Elder

5x Forest
2x Swamp
4x Windswept Heath
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Bayou
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Volrath's Stronghold

SB

4x Engineered Plague
3x Choke
3x Krosan Grip
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Faerie Macabre
2x open slots

The idea of the deck is very simple. Disrupt the opponent's hand then get a big fatty into play VIA Natural Order or land Survival of the Fittest and win through massive card advantage and creature recursion. It is very consistent, although I have only goldfished the deck it is damn good. Unlike most decks that half-assedly assume different roles, this one actually plays its numerous roles really well. Put it together and try it, it is really good!

A few thoughts on the comments awaiting, please post constructive comments and attempt to keep the deck a solid G/B. Spliashing a color is an option but I doubt it is needed, plus only having to worry about 2 colors and fetching basic lands is good! I am at school now, but a little later I will update the post and talk about why certain reanimation targets are played over others and card justifications.

georgjorge

01-20-2009, 03:58 PM

unlike typical Survival lists it doesn't have 10+ 1-of creatures that suck to draw individually

1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Shriekmaw
1x Genesis
1x Empyrical Archangel
1x Verdant Force
1x Progenitus
1x Wickerbough Elder

I still think there are too many fo the 1-ofs. You don't really need Genesis (Squee alone is advantage enough), Force (when would you fetch it over the other Order targets), and Shriekmaw (what can it hit that BGH couldn't...I can only think of Meddling Mage).

Otherwise, the list looks solid, although I'm missing the Witnesses ! My version goes for a slightly more Aggro approach, because this deck usually hasn't so many problems against Aggro, but can run out of threats vs control, and having Finks instead of Dorans (the next best threat after Goyf) can hurt there.

So my list is pretty similar except for the white splash. It uses Elves instead of Wall though to get second turn Doran, Survival + activation etc. It then basically runs

- 4 Finks
- the 1-ofs I mentioned above
+ 3 Doran
+ 2 Swords
+ 2 Witness

and Harmonic Sliver instead of Elder.

The pre-board combo matchup is pretty bad, and I'm not sure it can be made a positive matchup without white sideboard cards. I run

3 Chant
3 Duress
1 Therapy
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist

for a total of 10 discard spells, 3 Chants, and 2 creatures that can be tutored up via Survival on turn three. Teeg and Canonists could be replaced by Thorns, but those take up more slots since they can't be Survivaled up.

Anyway, it's very nice to see other people working on this deck, and I think we can do a good job of making it better !

AngryTroll

01-20-2009, 06:40 PM

A second Shriekmaw and a Big Game Hunter should make their way into that list, as well as a pair of Witnesses.

Shriekmaws and BGH allow you to win Goyf wars when you don't have Survival. That gives the deck the
Survival -> Goyf -> Win plan, the
Natural Order -> Protogenesis plan, and as a backup,
Goyfs + Shriekmaws + Genesis + stuff until you draw one of the bombs.

I like the 21 lands; I am not sold on the Kitchen Finks. They've got great synergy with Natural Order and Cabal Therapy, and are great against a couple of decks, but they seem to be pretty unimpressive. Yavimaya Elder seems better, but he certainly doesn't make the cut either. Of course, the Wall of Roots is similarly unimpressive. If you use it for mana, it'll die to Goyf; what is it there to block? Sakura Tribe Elder will net you better mana output (except a few activations of Survival on your opponents turn), and still chump Goyfs for a turn; I'm skeptical of this plan too.

I'd almost be tempted to run some of those Vexing Shushers main over either of those.

It'd be a little harder on the manabase, but Anger and Magus of the Moon are enough to make a lot of Survival lists splash black; similarly, Swords to Plowshares and possibly Doran are enough for many of them to splash white. You also get Orim's Chant in the board. I think either of these options are stronger than Finks.

I'd be tempted to go
-4 Wall of Roots
-4 Kitchen Finks
+1 Shriekmaw
+1 BGH
+2 Eternal Witness
+ Dorans and Swords to Plowshares

That'd make your list look more like this:

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
4x (Some extra creatures)
2x Eternal Witness
2x Shriekmaw
1x Big Game Hunter

4x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Natural Order

1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Genesis
1x Empyrical Archangel
1x Progenitus
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Faerie Macabre

6x Forest
2x Swamp
4x Windswept Heath
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Volrath's Stronghold

SB

4x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip
3x Vexing Shusher
1x Phantom Nishoba
4x Tormod's Crypt

Those four creatures could be the aggro route: Dorans or Tombstalkers; the control route: Wall of Blossoms, Finks, Sakura Tribe Elder; or more middle ground: Troll Ascetics, Nimble Mongeese, a Gigapede, something like that.

Wargoos

01-21-2009, 04:53 AM

As well i love the build angrytroll threw together.
Here's what i would play:
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Kitchen Finks (definitaly)
2x Eternal Witness
2x Shriekmaw
1x Big Game Hunter

4x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Natural Order

1x Slot
1x Squee
1x Genesis
1x Empyrical Archangel
1x Progenitus
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Faerie Macabre

6x Forest
2x Swamp
4x Windswept Heath
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Why don't you play kitchen finks? They're so good.
Surviving Wrath, additional input for backflashin Therapies, Sacc-Outlet for NAtural Order, life gain and goddamit 3/2 beatstick.
THERE GREEEEEEEEEEAT!
€dit: I'm talkin bullcrap =D

Maveric78f

01-21-2009, 06:06 AM

I respond to the opening post for the following reasons:
- it deals with the list I proposed
- it's the opening post
- the other lists seem worse to me (relates a bit to the first reason, I admit)
- nobody except GeorgJorge explained the differences it proposed

Things I'm sure about:
- you want 4 cabal therapy.
- you want at least 3 Kitchen Finks in a deck that plays 7 or more sacrifice spells.
- you want Genesis in order to be less dependent on extirpate/tormod's crypt/relic.
- Witness is required at least in *1, in order to be able to cast survival and activate it in response to a disenchant (preemptively, if you suspect krosan grip)

Things I'm 90% sure :
- Verdant force is not needed, if you want a castable big creature, I would definitely recommend Woodfall Primus which is 6/6, has an effect when it comes into play and has persist. Although, I'm not sure it's needed.
- Shriekmaw is not needed.
- Faerie Macabre is cool in MD.
- White is not needed except for the combo MU, and if you expect a lot of combo decks, then you probably won't play this deck in a tourney.
- You don't need to play more than 3 Natural Order.

Things I'm 50% sure :
- Sensei ?
- 19-21 lands ? (if we play 8 mana creatures + 2 sensei's, maybe 19 lands are enough)
- in SB, against Tribal, maybe Infest or Massacre are better, because it deals also with Meddling mage and Dark Confidant, and our goal is just to earn some time.

AngryTroll

01-21-2009, 04:55 PM

Things I'm 90% sure :
- Shriekmaw is not needed.

I'd be more like 90% that the deck should be running Shriekmaws, probably as a two of or more.

If you have Survival, you chain up Goyfs and just win. If you have Natural Order, you go find a giant beast and win. But if you don't have either, Shriekmaw is one of the better things to draw. If both you and your opponent have Goyfs, Shriekmaw is awesome. If your opponent has a Goyf and you don't, Shriekmaw is awesome. If you have a Goyf and your opponent doesn't, you've just made it even harder for them to catch up. I'd for sure run at least two.

Whenever I run black and Goyfs, I want to add Shriekmaws. In some cases, Edict is better, but this deck doesn't mind tapping out on its turn. Plus, you have the slots, and you need creatures for Survival. What's better for this slot?

georgjorge

01-21-2009, 06:08 PM

Aggro_zombies

01-21-2009, 06:46 PM

I would look into running a one-of Joiner Adept to allow you to find and play Progenitus and friends through Survival. Survival and Natural Order seem really redundant here, and one doesn't really overlap very well with the latter. I realize that means that the deck doesn't suck if you don't land Survival, but it also means that Survival isn't as great when you do get it out because you're trying to accommodate NO as well, so you have creatures that are too difficult for you to tutor for and then cast off of Survival (in most cases). Basically, Survival is just a really bad version of Living Wish here because it eats up a lot of deck space for a few silver bullets.

Also, these lists need more Anger. Progenitus is a lot better when you can put him into play and attack immediately.

Anusien

01-21-2009, 07:15 PM

Did you consider Recurring Nightmare to do something relevant with the fatties later on?

Tao

01-21-2009, 07:19 PM

Kitchen Finks are really great. I've finished 6th in a 118 players tourney with gbw rock survival (small mistake in list: I run 5 forest)
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22660
and even though I ran into Team America 3x (a matchup in which they are not good) they were still amazing overall. And in a deck where you want to sacrifice green creatures they are at least also a 3-off. They are a perfect mixture of control, aggression and synergy. I'd run 4 with Natural Order.

Maveric78f

01-22-2009, 05:42 AM

I agree that 'Maw helps win Goyf battles. But I'm running 3 Doran 2 Swords 1 Big Game Hunter in addition to 4 Order and 4 Survival, plus 3 Noble Hierarchs from Conflux who make your Goyf bigger. That's all in all 17 cards to win a Goyf battle, and I think it's enough.

Not providing black isn't it a biggest issue than winning those goyf battles when you have a combo (order) AND a control (survival) finish?

I don't think that playing too many 0/1 is a good idea neither (pyroclasm/fire/firespout). I may try a 2/3/3 split (2 noble, 3 birds, 3 walls).

I personally think that the deck does not care to win goyf battles, but I may be wrong... Shriekmaw can't deal with the creatures that are a real problem for the deck, except meddling mage (dark confidant, tombstalker, dreadnought).

Elfrago

01-22-2009, 07:51 AM

Since this has been tried before with little success, I'm asking myself: the problem was the target for natural order? IMHO, the deck has other problems (i.e. combo matchup) , and Verdant Force was good enough as a target.

Aside from this, I'd really try to fit 5-6 elves/birds in the deck, since they really help both with survival and order.

AngryTroll

01-22-2009, 11:47 AM

Simic Sky Swallower was a better target. Swords to Plowshares really ruins Verdant Force's day.

Even then, though, SSS isn't the most impressive dude. It takes three more full turns after you find him to do 18; Progenitus can't be blocked by Mystic Enforcers and wins in two swings.

So, yes, the biggest problem was the combo matchup. But Progenitus is a much better target than the deck has had before.

Mordenkaynen

01-22-2009, 12:36 PM

May be it's not a good idea to suggest it in this thread but why no deck with Natural Order plays Show and Tell too?

Elfrago

01-22-2009, 03:47 PM

Simic Sky Swallower was a better target. Swords to Plowshares really ruins Verdant Force's day.
[...]
So, yes, the biggest problem was the combo matchup. But Progenitus is a much better target than the deck has had before.

What I was trying to say was that Progenitus won't make this deck suddenly playable IMHO. Sure it's better than everything else but all of the deck problems are still there.

Tao

01-22-2009, 04:01 PM

That is not nessecarily true, I agree with AngryTroll.
Against decks with StoP you had to search for SSS. SSS was a 3-4 turn clock while Progenitus is a 2-turn clock. That is a huge difference.

Moczoc

01-22-2009, 04:15 PM

At least this deck is much fun to play :tongue:

(I switched to this deck too after realizing that with Progenitus it's a bit better than Demigod Survival that I was working on before.)

I made a list that is a combination of all your ideas and mine:

Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Shriekmaw
2 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus
1 Summoner's Egg
1 Empyrial Archangel
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Anger

Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Natural Order
2 Swords to Plowshares

Lands
4 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest

It's a difficult decision wether to play Doran or Kitchen Finks. Finks are good but I think they are not good enough for decks that don't play Deed. A good reason to play Kitchen Finks instead of Doran is that I would be possible to drop white entirely (if we play another removal intead of the 2 StP).

Furthermore I added:

-> Dryad Arbor: Can be fetched to be able to play Natural Order. Imho necessary.

-> Okina: Good with Doran.

-> Summoner's Egg: Makes it possible to drop a Progenitus out of nowhere. Survival for both, play Egg, sac into Therapy!

georgjorge

01-22-2009, 05:07 PM

My two Order targets are Progenitus and Hellkite Overlord. Let me explain (I'll just quote myself from another thread):

I had Archangel in the deck before, and there are some situations - against burn, or when you have to keep 'Stalkers and Drakes at bay and they could kill Hellkite - when you want Archangel. But in general, if you're up against an aggressive and threat-heavy deck like Goblins, you don't want the defense of Archangel anyway, you want the offense of Hellkite. Getting Archangel against Goblins will give you two or three turns after which you probably will still die because they overload your defenses, while getting Hellkite might just kill them before that, especially with all those Elves chumping like there's no tomorrow. And if you play against a defensive deck like Landstill, you want Progenitus instead of Archangel at all times.

@Mordenkaynen: We could search for them with Survival and then play Show and Tell, but I'd rather have Recurring Nightmare (which is more versatile and on-color).

Which I thought about including, but can't find anything to cut. Nightmare is cool since it can recycle Maws, Witnesses, and killed Goyfs and Dorans...but the deck is tight, because after Order, Survival and the respective targets, there aren't many slots left for the necessary disruption, threats and removal.

@Moczoc: Dryad Arbor could be nice. I really hate to play a land that essentially comes into play tapped, and I almost always have one of my nine Elves/Birds or a Witness to sac, but sometimes...however, I only run four green fetches since I also want to get the basic swamp at times.

AngryTroll

01-22-2009, 05:53 PM

I made a list that is a combination of all your ideas and mine:

Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Shriekmaw
2 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus
1 Summoner's Egg
1 Empyrial Archangel
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Anger

Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Natural Order
2 Swords to Plowshares

Lands
4 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest

Noble Heirarch is cool because it breaks Goyf stalls, but it doesn't tap for Black for your BGH, Shriekmaw, Dorans, Thoughtseizes, and Therapies. Is it worth running over Birds? Maybe; it's at least worth discussing.

I'd really run three Swords to Plowshares, maybe even over the fourth Therapy. Summoner's Egg jumps out at me as being weak, but you can Survival it up...but if you can Survival it up, you can Survival up a Goyf, too.

Tao

01-22-2009, 06:05 PM

If you run white, run 4 StoP. With Dreadnought, Goblin Lackey and Warchief, Dark Confidant, Countryside Crusher and Merfolk Lords there are so many creatures needing to get killed asap or destroying you that I never found that slot doubtful.

Maveric78f

01-23-2009, 04:54 AM

georgjorge

01-23-2009, 12:05 PM

It's not strictly worse than Progenitus: If my opponent is below 17 life and not running white, I get Overlord to kill him the next turn. Otherwise, I get Progenitus to kill him the turn after that. Both of those situations come up enough to warrant the two slots. It's true that killing one turn faster may not always make a difference, so I'll look at the situations where I get Hellkite in testing.

You may be right that Nishoba is a better target than Archangel, I'll take a closer look at situations where I would want to get something defensive on the table. Though I doubt that stalling is a good strategy with this deck when it doesn't run any sweepers to finally get those threats that you holding back off the table (the only exception would be when we already have a Survival engine going).

Pulp_Fiction

01-26-2009, 02:23 PM

I have been messing around with this deck a little lately, and a while back in the posts people were talking about why I play Verdant Force. Its in there for Goblins but it will most likely be cut. I love the card in there, but it isnt needed.

I really dislike the idea of adding white to the deck. StP is great, but adding another color can really complicate things, and I love the ability to play lots of basics and avoid unnecessary losses to Wasteland recursion.

Kitchen Finks are spectacular in the deck. As is Shriekmaw.

Adding Anger will only complicate things further by adding another color and giving the deck another dead draw.

I playtested this against Mono-green Berserk Stompy deck last week and it worked very well. Finks were able to delay them long enough for me to get massive fatties in play. Archangel was key in this matchup. Out of the 4 games we played I only lost once and that was when I drew 4 lands in a row after keeping a 3 land hand. Therapy/Thoughtseize wrecks them and Shriekmaw finishes the job! This deck could have quite a bit of potential!

Maveric78f

01-27-2009, 05:19 AM

Please explicit the following points:
- the list you played
- when Shriekmaw was good (with survival or without?)
- don't you think that phantom nishoba would have been as good, or even better than Archangel is the situations you described? Nishoba is interesting, because it's not that hard to cast it (we can play 1 savannah, or simply rely on 1 birds/noble hierarch)

georgjorge

01-28-2009, 03:19 PM

Looking at the posts here, it seems to me that most of the cards in the deck are agreed upon as of now...

4 Survival
3-4 Natural Order
1 Squee
1 Progenitus
1 other Order target (Hellkite/Archangel/Nishoba)
1 creature removal (Big Game Hunter/Shriekmaw)
1 artifact/enchantment removal (Harmonic Sliver/Wickerbough)

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Goyf
1-3 Eternal Witness

3-4 Thoughtseize
2-3 Cabal Therapy

The other cards are being argued. I think it would be productive to divide the decks into more aggressive or more controllish ones. Control probably wants

4 Wall of Roots
3-4 Kitchen Finks
2-3 Senseis's Divining Top
0-3 Swords to Plowshares

while Aggro, in my experience, wants

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Doran the Siege Tower
0-2 Jotun Grunt
0-2 Knight of the Relinquary (maybe...didn't test him though)

Of course, most of the cards are still the same for both versions, but it does make a difference nonetheless.

Comments ?

Moczoc

01-28-2009, 03:44 PM

while Aggro, in my experience, wants

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Doran the Siege Tower
0-2 Jotun Grunt
0-2 Knight of the Relinquary (maybe...didn't test him though)

- Knight of the R. because he has nothing to do with the decks concept.
+ Anger because the Haste-Effect is very important with an unblockable 10/10

And I want to say that I really like Wall of Blossom, but it has become nearly unplayable nowadays because Goyf is very often 4/5 (Fetch, Sorcery, Instant, Creature). Wall of Roots has the same problem.
Carven Caryatid is nice but there are so much other good cards fighting for the 3 mana spot, especially: Doran, Witness and Finks.

georgjorge

01-28-2009, 06:07 PM

Anger is very good with Survival, I agree. I didn't play it because I really didn't want ANOTHER card that is useless if I draw it (not a very good argument, I know), and I liked the stable manabase with only three colors so much.

It won't speed up Progenitus often though, you'd need both Survival AND Order for that.

I forgot that the control version could also run Recurring Nightmare if it still had some slots, to recur Witnesses, 'Maws, Goyfs and Finks, and getting an Archangel/Hellkite if you have Survival. I think Anusien suggested it on the previous page, I just couldn't find a place in the Aggro version.

Pulp_Fiction

02-02-2009, 02:41 PM

I just did a little testing the other day with whienot and some of the legacy regulars at the card shop and played my list against Goyf Sligh and wrecked it. The only game he won (out of 5 or 6 I don't remember) was when I stalled on mana and he did 12 damage to me on turn 4 (my turn 3).

I also played against Mono-Red burn and ravaged it. I didn't lose a single game out of 4. Kitchen Finks are just incredible in this deck.

I played one game against Dreadstill and lost, but I am positive that after Shusher and Grip come in this matchup is close to unwinnable for them. Wickerbough Elder and Stinkweed Imp were crazy good in this matchup.

The other matchup I tested was Mono-U control with Shackles. After I ripped his hand apart and landed Survival then got Wickerbough recursion going and he decided to not continue after a 10/10 hit play! After Shusher comes in this will be a VERY favorable matchup, just fetch basics!

Overall I was very happy with how the deck performed. For the most part it was pretty consistent. I did get mana screwed and flooded in two games out of .... maybe 14-16 but thats still pretty good. For some reason I didn't draw Natural Order very often. The whole time I think I cast it ... maybe 3 times, however, there was not a single time when I didn't want to play it nor that I didn't have a green creature to sacrifice.

One change I made to the deck, I cut the Verdant Force and added a Stinkweed Imp to the deck. I decided to take some tech from whienot and test it out, and so far he has killed a Morphling and a Dreadnought, pretty hot! Not a good beater, but a beautiful stall tactic and it can be recurred for free and Survivaled away in a tight spot.

adrieng

02-05-2009, 06:58 AM

What about splashing red for anger and burning wish ?
Burning wish is very versatile and gives you the natural order you need in sb.
I thnk it's worth testing it. I know some survival decks play it and like it.

Fossil4182

02-06-2009, 02:26 AM

I think the purpose of these builds differ greatly from past Survival builds Specifically, I think if you're running the Natural Order package, you want the black as protection. Most of these deck lists aren't trying to overwhelm with creature advantage, but rather set up quality cards for the win. That being said, it would project to me that these decks can't operate as traditional Survival decks would so some of the rules need not apply.

Shriekmaw is a great choice for the deck and if you expect the environment to be fairly creature laden, I would almost add in something else. That being said, I would assume the Thoughtseize along with Cabal Therapy would offer some great disruption to Combo decks, but I could see that being a problematic match up for this deck. Especially if they Thoughtseize out something like Thougtseize, Cabal Therapy, Survival or Natural Order early. That being said if they don't disrupt, your clock is almost as fast as theirs.

I don't think the splashes are necessary. Haste could be included via Anger and just discarded to Survival if that much speed is necessary. However I don't know what Burning Wish would offer to the deck that it needs. While some builds have been successful, no warrants have been made as to why its necessary or what it improves. Granted, you could wish for a Natural Order and in some instances that might be good, but I don't know how that would impact the mana base. Its a thought to be sure, but it needs to be weighed and assessed. This is especially true given that Team America is still out there and that Back to Basics is seeing more play making splash much more cost prohibitive.

White isn't necessary. The only cards that need be worried about in that respect is Tombstalker and Nought. I'm in no way trying to state that those two should be overlooked...they shouldn't be. That being said, Stalker comes down late enough that you can afford to race it to an extent. If Nought is really problematic, green has Survival targets that will answer it well enough.

GtF

02-06-2009, 04:35 PM

Since a lot of builds of survival play burning wish anyway, it seems like it's at least worth a try since it effectively gives you 7 natural orders. My first inclination with progenitus was to add anger since it is the only way to speed up the progenitus kill, and again is a card a lot of survival decks play anyway just because it's good. This list is untested but is heavily based on RGB SA lists that have placed in T8s according to deckcheck.net

Burning Secret Force
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Progenitus
1 Genesis
1 Shriekmaw
1 Anger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
3 Natural Order
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Thoughtseize
4 Wall of Roots
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Survival of the Fittest
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Primal Command
SB: 1 Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Gleeful Sabotage
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy

It was unfortunate that I had to cut the kitchen finks as they have great synergy with natural order and cabal therapy. If you wanted to fit more in, the genesis/shriekmaw/rofellos/eternal witness slots would be the ones to mess with. The SB is pretty speculative, but seems to cover most of the bases.

luckymartyr

02-08-2009, 01:30 PM

I can't believe what natural orders are going for now. I picked up 3 for $4 each at my local store and have been trying to get a 4th for this deck and I can't get near one for under $15.

Atwa

02-12-2009, 05:59 AM

I am very sorry I'm going to be the one to tell you this guys, but did you actually know this deck gets it's ass handed over from Stasis.dec?

I encountered a stasis deck online and in 12 games played, I only managed to get 1 win. That's pretty sick, it's not like I'm a bad player, esspecially online I seem to play better than IRL.

Fortunatly, it's not like Stasis is a DtB, but just to share some testing info with you guys :tongue:

Tha Gunslinga

02-12-2009, 03:56 PM

Obviously this isn't a huge issue with the deck, but I thought a good deck name might be "The Origin of Beatings," in honor of the Darwin's 200th birthday and due to the Survivals in the deck.

ReAnimator

02-12-2009, 04:09 PM

Has anyone considered running pattern of rebirth? It essentially gives you 8 Natural orders, and works well with Therapy. You could even run devoted druid which accells and kills itself when enchanted, and something like sakura tribe elder as well.

Not really sure if this is something the deck would want, though it may be an alternative to a survival engine. Just a though.

Pulp_Fiction

02-12-2009, 05:44 PM

Alright, I took this to my local tournament last night and made the top 8 out of 28ish people, but lost out on a mediocre matchup that had exceptional draws! Here is the list I ran followed by a short tournament report:

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Natural Order
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Wall of Roots
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Kitchen Finks
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Shriekmaw
1x Genesis
1x Empyrical Archangel
1x Stinkweed Imp
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Progenitus

5x Forest
2x Swamp
4x Windswept Heath
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Bayou
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Volrath's Stronghold

SB

4x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Krosan Grip
2 Vexing Shusher
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Yixlid Jailer

Round 1: Affinity (unreg)
g1: I mull to 5 and keep a hand of 2 land + Survival. He doesn't start off very fast and I am able to stabilize with triple Finks (thanks Survival!) and Wickerbough Elder. Shortly after I stabilized I cast Natural Order into Progenitus and won in 1 swing!

g2: He keeps a fast hand but I go turn 1 land + Bird, turn 2 land, turn 3 land + Natural Order on Birds into Progenitus! He plays a Master of Etherium but it doesn't matter as I have KGrip in hand and drop him to 10 life, then win the next turn.

Round 2: Eva Green (unreg)
g1: This is sick, he curves out perfectly with just enough disruption to race me.

g2: I destroy his hand and put him into topdeck mode then draw better threats than he does! Thats why I love this deck so much, even the Survival targets are very effective creatures!

g3: He mulls to 5 .... I land Survival and get 3 Goyfs into play by turn 6.

Round 3: Mono-White Control with Scepter (not Quinn)

g1: This game goes on for a LONG time, because I can't draw Survival but I had a Stinkweed Imp that was killing all his shit. I eventually dredge into Genesis and start recurring Kitchen Finks and decks that run Wrath effects have a hard time dealing with Finks, let alone mass recursion! I run him out of answers and overrun him.

g2: Basically the exact same thing as game 1. Turn 1 Thoughtseize reveals 3x Wrath of God and Runed Halo, I take Halo and play Cabal Therapy on turn 2! Its basically over at this point. I Extirpate Halo and drop Survival and win shortly after!

Round 4: ID

Round 5: ID

Top 8

Round 6: Non-LED Dredge AKA Not the bad version of Dredge

g1: He wins the roll and plays PImp on turn 1. I play forst Birds. On his turn he discards GGT and Stinky, then plays Breakthrough and I take 33 damage from zombies ..... killed on turn 2 ... nothing I could do.

g2: I mull to 6 trying to find multiple answers and do. I open up with Thoughtseize and see the following: PImp, GGT, Careful Study, Street Wraith, Wispmare, Chain of Vapor, City of Brass!!!!! This is fucking bullshit, when I play Dredge and side in more than 5 answers, there is NO way I would open something like this! Fucking insane! I take PImp and pass the turn. He leads with Careful Study and cycles Street Wraith to dredge revealing 2 Bridges then passes the turn. I evoke Shriekmaw and remove his Bridges. He reanimates Ichorid and apparently drew into another Careful Study and another land as he plays both and dredges into 1 MORE BRIDGE, 1 NARCOMOEBA, 2 DREAD RETURN, AND ALREADY HAS FKZ IN THE YARD!!! This is bullshit! I have a Engineered Plague in hand but can't play it since he has Wispmare and CoV in hand so I Cabal Therapy him to remove Wispmare and pass the turn. He dredges into 2 MORE NARCOMOEBAS and flashes back DReturn and I take 15 damage on turn 3 ..... fuck luck. Seriously, this is awful, there is no way he should be that lucky. But either way, I lose. I had a grand total of 5 turns this entire matchup, what can you do?

Overall, the deck was functioning very well. There is nothing I would change at all. G/B Survival is just hot, but Natural Order is spectacular. There are times when it isn't needed but you are never disappointed in seeing it! I think Natural Order gives Survival that last little boost that it needed so as to make it not as reliant on Survival. I really enjoyed playing this deck and think it has a lot of potential in the meta!

b4r0n

02-12-2009, 06:22 PM

There is nothing I would change at all.

Nothing at all? If that's truly the case, then I have some questions:

Why are you running two basic Swamps? They don't seem necessary at all, and non-Forest basics are pretty anti-synergetic with Survival. And why are you running Overgrowth Tomb? It seems extremely unlikely that you'd ever need a fifth dual to fetch. I mean, if you're comfortable with running Overgrown Tomb and Volrath's Stronghold (two unnecessary nonbasics), why wouldn't you consider a small red splash for Anger? Is Anger really that much worse than a Stinkweed Imp? Also, why no Progenitus? He seems like the best aggressive Natural Order target available. Archangel does a good job of stabilizing, but Progenitus just ends games.

Tha Gunslinga

02-12-2009, 06:48 PM

Also, why no Progenitus? He seems like the best aggressive Natural Order target available.

I'm seeing a 59-card deck, and I can guess what the 60th card is.

Pulp_Fiction

02-12-2009, 08:00 PM

Jaynel

02-12-2009, 08:13 PM

Fixed, I forgot to put Progenitus in the list. Overgrown tomb is better than Swamp #3. I play basic swamps because having basic lands in my meta is the way to go. There is lots of Wasteland and Back to basics running around in my meta. Basics are soooo good. Volrath's Stronghold wins games by itself, its always a bomb and is often times Needled. Stinkweed guarntees you a second creature for the turn with Squee in the grave and owns the whole format. Stinkweed is spectacular in Survival and is an amazing stall tactic. Also, with Genesis in hand/grave the dredging makes him even more relevant. I don't want to play 3 colors. Late game Stinkweed is a serious bomb/stall card. Anger is just weak and requires a red mana.

When would you ever need 2 basic Swamps? And if basics are so good, then why do you run the Overgrown Tomb instead of a basic Forest? And Anger is incredibly strong, especially if Natural Order doesn't show up and you need to lay on the beats with Tarmogoyfs or Kitchen Finks. Your manabase is pretty stable; I don't think a Taiga would stress it heavily and a Wall of Roots would be an easy cut for the Anger.

luckymartyr

02-12-2009, 10:08 PM

I have literally no experience with this deck and wanted to know why empyrial archangel is necessary. In what situations would you rather have the archangel over progenitus?

I also wanted peoples opinions on sakura tribe elder over wall of roots. The wall seems better for early defense and if you are using it to activate survival on your opponents turn but the tribe elder seems better against dredge and gives you outs to magus of the moon/wasteland etc.

Fayt

02-12-2009, 10:42 PM

Maverick676

02-12-2009, 10:45 PM

Not when it isn't in play.

Fayt

02-12-2009, 10:46 PM

your wrong

Maverick676

02-12-2009, 10:55 PM

your wrong

While your argument is very convincing, creature cards only have abilities like protection, shroud ect. while they are in play. For example protection from blue would not protect a goblin piledriver from being removed from a player's library by extract. In addition to that natural order doesn't even target, so protection wouldn't matter even if progenitus had it while not in play. For example protection from white won't save a critter from wrath of god.

Seriously

02-12-2009, 10:59 PM

Fayt

02-12-2009, 11:43 PM

Well I was under the impression that Progenitus had protection from everything and Natural Order is still included in everything. And trolls are cool dont you ever diss the trolls.

Maverick676

02-12-2009, 11:47 PM

Sorry I was under the impression you were serious, and just didn't know the rules. Now go back to /b/ with your pathetic self please.

Mordel

02-13-2009, 01:34 AM

Well I was under the impression that Progenitus had protection from everything and Natural Order is still included in everything. And trolls are cool dont you ever diss the trolls.

Simple rulings that have existed since the dawn of mtg>you

Back under the bridge of obscurity you go.

whienot

02-13-2009, 02:22 AM

Congrats Pulp. The deck is very solid. How has choke been for you? I've been a little underwhelmed with the card in Survival boards. I'd rather have another dude I can search out. What situations would you rather have Choke than Shusher? I understand Choke can just shut a player out of the game, but so can an uncounterable Natural Order.

You should test the list out with Anger/Taiga/Tombstalker.

Hasty 5/5s have won me a few games, especially with Stinkweed Imp to power him out.

Pulp_Fiction

02-13-2009, 03:15 AM

ummmmmm..... I think you guys missed something on Progenitus' text but Progenitus has protection from everything and that includes Natural Order..... so you can't even get it with natural order cuz it has protection from it....This combo does not work im sorry to burst everyone's bubble for the GP

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!! Thank you for that, that made the day so much better!!!

@whienot: Did you build this thing up??? Its fucking good. The only other Natural Order target I think you really need is Phantom Nishoba against something like Goyf Sligh and burn. A case could be made for Verdant Force against random aggro and Goblins as well, but in this day and age I think Verdant Force is now a sub-optimal fatty :(

Oops, another mistake on my list. I wasn't running Choke, I was running Extirpate in its place. Choke just hasn't been getting it done for me lately so I just side in Extirpates in their place and KGrips. Extirpate is also pretty good against ANT due to the 4x Mystical Tutors in the deck. Choke is certainly good, but I have been losing a little faith in it lately as I just draw multiples of it in Rock and then lose cause I have no fucking threats.

@luckymartyr: Archangel is a fucking bomb against basically anything with red and burn. Oftentimes decks like Goyf Sligh, burn, and Zoo can race a turn 3-4 Progenitus by just throwing burn at the dome. It is also pretty bad ass when you are at low life against multiple threats against something like Eva Green.

jazzykat

02-13-2009, 12:43 PM

I know the cc's in this deck are high but has anyone considered Dark Confidant? I'm not sure if that's actually feasible, but I know that traditional lists benefitted from him.

Also, has anyone tried taking this deck into a control combo route, perhaps w/o survival. I understand that if you have to play a creature that you are OK with sacrificing then survival is a pretty reasonable tool/backup plan to go along with it but you really only need a progenitus and for your and it to live 2more turns for it to go all the way...

Moczoc

02-13-2009, 12:47 PM

I know the cc's in this deck are high but has anyone considered Dark Confidant? I'm not sure if that's actually feasible, but I know that traditional lists benefitted from him.

He isn't green. And draw into Progenitus is even worse than the old Tombstalker issue.

Also, has anyone tried taking this deck into a control combo route, perhaps w/o survival. I understand that if you have to play a creature that you are OK with sacrificing then survival is a pretty reasonable tool/backup plan to go along with it but you really only need a progenitus and for your and it to live 2more turns for it to go all the way...

Try it in a Rock-shell, there you can play Birds and Kitchen Finks too.

Mordel

02-13-2009, 12:56 PM

I don't want to start an extirpate debate (lulzrhyme), but extirpate seems sort of ho-hum as far as being run in a deck that basically looks to cast a four mana spell and say gg two turns later.

I am one of the few that think extirpate has a few useful implications, but it doesn't really strike me as great in the ANT match since almost everything that you can extirpate besides discard isn't really going to effect their going off(at least in my experience).

While I like choke, I haven't been finding myself using them much lately in a vaguely similar deck, so I have been using extra discard in their stead and more crypts and have been having a pretty good time with those. Sometimes extirpate is spectacular and other times it is fail, so rather than taking a chance, maybe more discard is a solid bet along with a little more of something else.

Tacosnape

02-13-2009, 01:42 PM

This deck needs more mana acceleration and less utter crap.

Verdant Force is garbage, first of all.

Second, Elves of Deep Shadow are tech in GB-only Survival builds.

Third, Taiga + Anger makes Progenitus kill a turn quicker.

Fourth, with Kitchen Finks? You have no reason not to be running a horde of Fleshbag Marauders as removal pieces.

AngryTroll

02-13-2009, 02:41 PM

Second, Elves of Deep Shadow are tech in GB-only Survival builds.

But probably not as good as Birds and regular Llanowar Elves, since you need a lot more Green than Black.

Third, Taiga + Anger makes Progenitus kill a turn quicker.

Fourth, with Kitchen Finks? You have no reason not to be running a horde of Fleshbag Marauders as removal pieces.

Both of these are exactly correct. I'd be running a Big Game Hunter to compliment them, because he's that good, but Marauder should be in there.

Moczoc

02-13-2009, 02:48 PM

What is better about saccing Kitchen Finks into Marauder than saccing Marauder into itself?

jazzykat

02-13-2009, 03:11 PM

What is better about saccing Kitchen Finks into Marauder than saccing Marauder into itself?

2 beaters instead of 1. You also get 2 life.

AngryTroll

02-13-2009, 03:12 PM

What is better about saccing Kitchen Finks into Marauder than saccing Marauder into itself?

You gain two life, and still have a creature in play. Now your board is a 3/1 and a 2/1, instead of just a 3/2.

Edit: Ninja'd

Is a Survival shell the best way to do this, or a Rock Shell, or an Aggro Elves Shell?

Tacosnape

02-13-2009, 03:20 PM

Is a Survival shell the best way to do this, or a Rock Shell, or an Aggro Elves Shell?

Somewhere between Survival and Elf Survival, I'd say.

The reason Survival is so fantastic for this shell is that A. it gives you a way to crush your opponent if you don't draw Natural Order, and B. It lets you pitch the Progenitus for something productive if it gets stuck in your hand. Plus, with all the green accelerators you can run as Natural Order fodder, abusing Survival is a natural step from there.

jazzykat

02-13-2009, 03:24 PM

Has anyone considered working in wirewood herald and caller of the claw? I am starting to think that a survival/Natural Order + handrape (i.e. cabal therapy + herald, witness, finks, + thoughtseize + wall of blossoms) may be in order. Heck you could always run deed instead of survival because you are gaining CA every which way if you use a slow (loam) rock shell (Like a cross between CAL?). The Progenitus business can just be a terror gimmick, if you thoughtseize and therapy with flashback a kitchen finks can go an awful long way against someone.

luckymartyr

02-13-2009, 09:59 PM

I am trying to speed the deck up to keep up with the format and wanted to know what people thought of a few chrome moxes. It makes for some nutty plays like turn 1 survival or turn 2 natural order into progenitus. Can the deck withstand even more card disadvantage to make it faster?

georgjorge

02-14-2009, 10:10 AM

Third, Taiga + Anger makes Progenitus kill a turn quicker.

...win-more, I'd say. So you have Survival and Order, and the mana to cast both and use Survival ? I don't think Haste will matter at this point.

Anger is still very good with Survival on it's own, but as I said I'm worried about the number of "dead" cards the deck is using.

@Chrome Moxes: Why do you think the deck is too slow for this format ? With 4 Birds and 3-4 Hierarchs/Elves of Deep Shadow, the deck seems to do fine, and I have little problems against stuff like Goyf Sligh and Tempo Thresh. Also, dropping first turn Survivals or second turn Orders isn't as good as it seems, as you usually want to cast your Thoughtseizes, Duresses or Therapies first.

@Marauder: I don't know many creatures you would want to kill with that which BGH wouldn't kill.

Moczoc

02-14-2009, 03:13 PM

I'm still playing my 4c list, and it works, and I'm even playing Noble H. in the place of Birds. But the splashes are very light, 4 cards need white mana and 1 needs a taiga ;)

I recommend to try a Dryad Arbor, it really saved my ass in some games (as a blocker or to sac her into Cabal Therapy or Natural Order).

And Norwood Priestess is much fun to play, in the lategame she just jumps out of the Survival with Progenitus to surprise the opponent with 10 damage.

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Anger
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Norwood Priestess
1 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Progenitus
4 Noble Hierarch

Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Natural Order
2 Swords to Plowshares

Lands
4 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest

Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Yixlid Jailer
2 Engineered Plague
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Faerie Macabre

Today I nearly completed this deck in real-life and did some testing games:

UWB Stalker-Fish: 2 - 2
U/G Classic Madness: 2 - 0
Stupid Burn: 2 - 0
Mono G Stompy w/o Berserk: 2 - 1
Vial Affinity: 1 - 2
Mono W control: 1 - 0

I must say that the deck in not easy to play for me as I'm totally new to the survival archetype, but this deck is very nice. I puts a lot of pressure on the opponent because it consistently brings Progenitus, Survival or some big beaters like Doran and Goyf into play within the first three turns.

Sometimes I wished I had Stinkweed Imp to stop things like Hypnotic Specter or to act as a wall when going all-in with Progenitus. I think I'll include him in some way.

I'm building the sideboard to fit my meta where blue control is played a lot.

Pulp_Fiction

02-14-2009, 05:30 PM

@green one: Exactly, thats why you don't run Anger. It is a dead draw and really only gives Progenitus haste with Survival in play, in which case you don't need Natural Order since you can just play G/B Survival. There will be rare times when you draw Anger, fetch Taiga, Therapy/Thoughtseize yourself to get Anger into the yard, and then Natural Order into Progenitus but, not so likely. Anger really isn't necessary. Run it if you want to, but it really isn't needed.

@Moczoc: Why would you play Norwood Priestess when you could just play Elvish Piper? However, if you want to go that route, I think Recurring Nightmare would be a better choice.

Moczoc

02-14-2009, 05:42 PM

@Moczoc: Why would you play Norwood Priestess when you could just play Elvish Piper? However, if you want to go that route, I think Recurring Nightmare would be a better choice.

Elvish Piper costs 1 mana to activate, thats sometimes a huge difference. All my big creatures are green anyway. And putting something into play at instant speed isn't relevant because Piper itself doesn't have flash.

Recurring Nightmare doesn't work with progenitus, thats why I don't play it :wink:

luckymartyr

02-14-2009, 09:52 PM

I played the following at our local gp trial for chicago today:

4 BoP
4 Wall of Roots
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Squee
1 Genesis
1 Wickbough Elder
1 Anger
1 Progenitus
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Shriekmaw
1 Big game hunter

4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal threrapy
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order

3 Windswept heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Bayou
5 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's stronghold
1 Dryad arbor

I had never played survival before and made a ton of mistakes my first match, but after slowing down and actually remembering my upkeep effects I did manage to kill a couple of people with Progenitus. I went 2-2 losing to landstill and its the fear. I beat slivers and ugb threshold.

I was playing red for anger and ancient grudge in the board, but I think that the white splash may be better for main deck harmonic sliver and cannonists from the board. I am a big fan of dyrad arbor as well. I put it in for the sacrifice effects but was glad just to have a blocker sometimes or a fetchable land with survival. The vexing shusher should definitely have been maindeck and I think I am going to play multiple copies in the board.

My manabase definitely needs some work as I should definitely put in some ways to fetch basic swamps and I realize the basic mountain is probably not needed. I like the deck and with some tweeking I think I will run it for the grand prix.

Mordel

02-14-2009, 11:31 PM

So I played against a deck that was like Di's survival elves deck, but rocked the progenitus+order thing in the side on top of a few other transformational things I guess and it wrecked me bad. It seemed like a good idea.

Pulp_Fiction

02-15-2009, 02:50 PM

@luckymartyr: What does you SB look like? You posted a list without SB. You really don't need a basic mountain. Based on how much total red you run, 3 Taiga should be more than enough. Did you ever get a hasty Progenitus into play? If so, were you already winning at that point?

@Moczoc: Recurring Nightmare is spectacular, especially with Finks. It doesn't work with Progenitus .... one card in the deck. But recurring Finks would be fucking good against anything red, reanimating Archangel, recurring Wickerboughs, BGH, etc. Nightmare is a strong card, I don't know if there is room in the deck for it, but its a damn strong card.

@Mordel: I really like the Elf Survival, but it still has problems with Engineered Plague (as all Elf decks). And that is a serious concern in my meta, and it would be a serious concern at the GP. This deck already has problems with Needle on Survival (if you don't draw useful creatures OR Natural Order) so I think making it even more vulnerable to hate cards like Plague, Pyroclasm, and Firespout may not be the best direction to take Natural Order.

Atwa

02-15-2009, 04:01 PM

@Mordel: I really like the Elf Survival, but it still has problems with Engineered Plague (as all Elf decks). And that is a serious concern in my meta, and it would be a serious concern at the GP. This deck already has problems with Needle on Survival (if you don't draw useful creatures OR Natural Order) so I think making it even more vulnerable to hate cards like Plague, Pyroclasm, and Firespout may not be the best direction to take Natural Order.

I agree that integrate it into the elf survival deck isn't the best approach for Order.

However, integrating it into the elf shell can fix some of the bad matchups of the elf deck. That deck already has a pretty good gameplan, Order is just a backup in that deck. And I feel it could be a contender on the GP. Plague is not that hard to play around wit it. The only thing it fears is red mass removal, which can be fixed with Absolute Law in the side.

luckymartyr

02-15-2009, 06:12 PM

What does you SB look like? You posted a list without SB. You really don't need a basic mountain. Based on how much total red you run, 3 Taiga should be more than enough. Did you ever get a hasty Progenitus into play? If so, were you already winning at that point?

Sidebord:
4 Leyline of the void
2 Ancient grudge
2 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
1 Brooding Saurian
1 Vexing shusher
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Detritivore

I did win a game with hasty goyfs, but the anger could probably be cut. The shusher should definitely be in the main deck with more in the board.

georgjorge

02-17-2009, 09:13 AM

@green one: [snip]

Hey, I'm georgjorge :mad: though I have the same avatar as GreenOne :smile:!

1. Some posts ago people talked about playing Burning Wish/Pattern of Rebirth for more than four Order, but I don't think that's needed. You don't always want Order (siding it out is not that uncommon), and you often don't want two.

2. Concerning Elf Survival/standard Survival: I'm not fond of Tribal decks in this format because it seems to me that many of your opponent's cards trade one-for-one (spot discard, removal, counters, creatures), but your Elves are only good in numbers, and often when playing Elf Survival I was left with a Priest + Llanowar or Champion + Ranger after the dust had settled, while my opponent had a Tombstalker, Dreadnought, Disk etc. Goblins can avoid that by out-tempoing the opponent with Lackey or land destruction, but I didn't have many explosive draws when playing Elf Survival. So I'll stay with standard Survival because its threats can hold its own.

3. Please, let's not clutter up the thread by continously posting decklists that include little or no innovations over previous ones.

Maveric78f

02-17-2009, 11:08 AM

Hey, I'm georgjorge :mad: though I have the same avatar as GreenOne :smile:!

1. Some posts ago people talked about playing Burning Wish/Pattern of Rebirth for more than four Order, but I don't think that's needed. You don't always want Order (siding it out is not that uncommon), and you often don't want two.
I think that 3 orders is the good number. Play some sensei's divining tops (2 or 3) and you'll draw them when you need them.

luckymartyr

02-19-2009, 06:56 PM

Does anyone have a list that plays white? What else besides harmonic sliver would be played in this build?

georgjorge

02-19-2009, 07:06 PM

Swords (because there are some things that 'Maw can't kill and BGH is too slow for), Doran (second best beater) if you go the aggro route. Maybe Grunt as well. And for the sideboard, Chant (I find discard not to be enough against combo) and Gaddock/Canonist as Survival targets (can't find good targets against combo in the other colors).

It is a light splash, but for me it gives the deck more than it takes away, especially since it's even easier to include with Hierarchs (which are pretty good in this deck).

I also play two Burrenton Forge Tenders in the side, though I don't expect anyone to follow my advice there :wink:.

Moczoc

02-20-2009, 10:01 AM

Does anyone have a list that plays white? What else besides harmonic sliver would be played in this build?

-> Post #64

I play 2 Savannah, 2 Swords and 2 Doran MD and a Cononist in SB, that's it.

And I like Wickerbough Elder more because he is a bigger beater and can wait on the table for a Counterbalance/Moat etc.

luckymartyr

02-21-2009, 01:26 AM

Is xantid swarm worth a maindeck spot? He allows your spells to resolve and sacs to order for just one green.

swarm187

02-23-2009, 03:55 PM

Does anyone have a list that plays white? What else besides harmonic sliver would be played in this build?

I also play GBw,using Swords and Vindicates maindeck. Vindicate has actually been a real all-star in my testing, usually coming down during a game-changing/locking turn.

Has anyone else tested Maelstrom Archangel? Holy crap, she has been an absolute BEATING in my testing. After you dig her up with a Natural Order, she basically gives you the opportunity to play huge spells for free once a turn. I've tested her along with Plated Slagwurm and Woodfall Primus, all of which have given me pretty fair results.

As far as my build goes, Maelstrom Archangel is definitely a one-of, maindeck.

Here's my list as of right now, although I am still testing extensively:

4x Noble Heirarch
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Eternal Witness
1x Progenitus
1x Maelstrom Archangel
1x Plated Slagwurm
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Shreikmaw
1x Genesis
1x Woodfall Primus

4x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Natural Order
3x Vindicate
3x Survival of the Fittest
3x Swords to Plowshares

4x Scrubland
4x Bayou
3x Windswept Heath
4x Forest
3x Swamp

I'm not sold on Kitchen Finks, although they are spectacular against decks like Goblins and other fast aggro decks. Has anyone tried running Pernicious Deed in this deck? It seems to me that a stabalizing card like that might help out as a two-of, especially if we're putting out threats that have giant casting costs.
I'm also only running 18 lands, but I have yet to run into a problem with curving out or casting larger spells. 7 mana dorks and fetchlands seem to get me right where I need to be, even when facing some disruption. I place a lot of value on E. Witnesses for that reason. They always seem to grab something I need and I'm never sad to see one top-decked...at least not yet. Has anyone else seen that pattern?
Dryad Arbor is a nice thought here, and honestly, I haven't tested it yet. Has it been working for those of you who run it maindeck?

swarm187

02-25-2009, 04:23 PM

What do you guys think of adding Crop Rotation? It will help with mana-fixing if you're running a white splash, or even a small red splash, and it helps pump Goyf quickly.

Jaynel

02-25-2009, 04:26 PM

What do you guys think of adding Crop Rotation? It will help with mana-fixing if you're running a white splash, or even a small red splash, and it helps pump Goyf quickly.

Fetches + Birds of Paradise should be more than enough.

swarm187

02-25-2009, 04:45 PM

I've also been working on a sideboard to abuse Maelstrom Archangel, just for fun. Here's what I have so far:

1x Vindicate
4x Path to Exile
2x Conflux
2x Cruel Ultimatum
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
3x Darksteel Colossus
2x Hellkite Overlord

Again, this is just an idea to abuse a Natural Ordered Maelstrom Archangel. I know this isn't the goal of the deck, but I'm having trouble with a legitimate sideboard. Does anyone have a current sideboard list?

Also, does anyone have an answer to a countered/Extirpated Natural Order? I know this deck can still operate without the combo win condition, but it does take significant wind out of its sails. Any suggestions?

Azania

02-25-2009, 10:11 PM

I would not go with maelstrom angel. It is to easy to get rid off and way to unreliable. Also if something happens it makes every other card you sided in mostly uses. Also with Survival you can not look up the plane walker for example. So I would really not play that at all.

In regards to a countered or extirpated natural order you can still beat down the regular way and look up threat removers with your survival. I will most likely run Vexing Shusher either main or at least sideboard. When I get a hold of Xantid Swarm I will most likely end up testing that as well. Al though it is somewhat meta game dependent. Your entire creature toolbox is mostly meta game dependent.

Sideboard I was planning the following (I play a white splash though):

1x Loxodon Hierarch
4x Leyline of the Void
3x duress
2x Vindicate (I am testing 2 main as soon I have my initial deck list done)
2x StP (again 2 main for testing purposes)
2x Ethersworn Cannonist
1x Geddock Teeg, or the second Vexing Shusher. (1 main, most decks in my meta game use counters)

But most likely use 3x Engeneerd Plague instead of the Duress

swarm187

02-26-2009, 04:47 PM

troopatroop

02-26-2009, 05:10 PM

Obviously your first Natural Order target will always be Progenitus, but having options is never a bad thing.

When you're chosing to Natural Order for something other than the best possible card, then yes, I would say that options can be bad thing. There's no sense in wasting more maindeck slots on different Natural Order targets. The other really good target is Empyrial Archangel. If you're always going for Progenitus first, then why do you need more targets? Progenitus is going to go the distance the majority of the games he gets into play.

It's not that Maelstrom Archangel is bad in play, it's just that Progenitus is a million times better, and you're getting caught up in the danger of cool things.

swarm187

02-27-2009, 08:28 AM

HdH_Cthulhu

02-27-2009, 09:48 AM

Empyrial Archangel is hot cuz whene your opponent has 2+ beaters out and you are low on life Progenitus could just block 1 guy. Archangel is much more the saver route, she also makes sure that no burn is finishing you off.

troopatroop

02-27-2009, 12:59 PM

I understand your point troopatroop, but if that's the case, why have any other Natural Order targets in the deck at all?

I agree that Progenitus is the best target for Natural Order, and he wins the game 9 times out of 10 when he hits the board, but I don't think there's anything wrong with having alternative strategies built into a deck, especially if it's only taking up 1 card slot. I like Empyrical Archangel as well, but Maelstrom gives you the ability to play your other Natural Order targets if you happen to draw them.

First let me go back to a previous comment you made about Maelstrom Archangel being hardcastable. She's not. Just because you play Birds and Noble Hierarch in your deck doesn't make her mana cost any more realistic. She will be a dead card in your hand most of the time. That also gives you one more dead card in your deck (like Progenitus) that you'll be drawing. Why are you playing Plated Slagwurm?

I really don't think you should have any other Natural Order targets, especially ones that die to removal spells, the most GLARINGLY obvious being the most played, Swords to Plowshares. Don't mention the fact that it's only one card slot as it's not a big deal. It's a big deal.

If I'm holding Progenitus, and I cast Natural Order, I would much rather go for Empyrial Archangel and not get owned by STP. There is something wrong with having alternative strategies when those strategies are inferior to the others already in the deck.

swarm187

02-27-2009, 05:48 PM

The rationale behind playing cards like Plated Slagwurm, Woodfall Primus, and Maelstrom Archangel in a Natural Order deck is simply this:

I wanted to see if having more than one target for the main spell in the deck would be beneficial or a hinderance.

In my playtesting, I've found I like having that versatility, even if it's only used every once in a while. No, it's probably not the most optimal use of space in the deck, but it's something that is working for me and that's why I wanted to put it out there. Are there better options? Yeah, more than likely. But this isn't a tier 1 deck in Legacy and thus is more open to tinkering and variation.
I'm not presuming to have the answers to making this deck tier 1, I'm just trying to talk through some strategies that seem interesting to me. This is the Developmental Forum after all.

I have yet to test Empyrial Archangel, mostly because my playgroup hasn't met since I got my hands on one. I understand now that this deck is more reliant on Survival of the Fittest than Natural Order, and that was my mistake. For now, I'm going to test the Empyrial Archangel and see if she makes her presence felt. I have no doubt, at this thread's insistence, that she will.

Again, I'm not trying to say my build will win tournaments by any means. I'm simply trying to look at the deck from another angle.

troopatroop

02-28-2009, 07:16 PM

But shouldn't you be trying to win? What are you doing on this forum for magic strategy if it's not to make your deck better and win games? This deck is really strong! You should be trying to win, and resolving yourself to anything less is just a cop out.

Like... when is it ever better to get Plated Slagwurm over Progenitus? I can't think of many situations at all. And if it isn't sometimes better, then why play the card? Especially over Natural Order #4. It boggles my mind.

Pulp_Fiction

03-01-2009, 04:00 PM

I'm going to disagree with you on this one, Azania. There are other 5/5 flyers played quite often in Legacy decks, with decent success. The one that sticks out to me is Tombstalker, which is played in more than one good Legacy build.
Maelstrom Archangel has evasion, you can get it out turn two or three, and it is black, just like Tombstalker. Yes, there is plenty of spot removal out there for both of these creatures, but that doesn't mean they are unplayable.

Obviously your first Natural Order target will always be Progenitus, but having options is never a bad thing. I agree with you, building a sideboard to suit that card is a dumb idea, but I think the Archangel is definitely worth at least one spot in the deck. In the right situation you can even hard cast it with a Birds and a Hierarch in play.

That is why Empyrical Archangel is run. Also, you can Natural Order for Goyf or Wickerbough Elder or something in a pinch. But if you drew Progenitus without Survival, why not Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy yourself to shuffle it back into the deck then Natural Order into it?

I have no idea why you want so many different targets. Why would you EVER want to Order into something that is easily answered and doesn't effectively win the game in really fucking short order?? Against decks running multiple Wrath of God effects (Quinn) and Runed Halo is the only time Natural Order into Progenitus will be somewhat ineffective. And if you happen to play against a deck like that, just take out Progenitus, Archangel, and Natural Orders for SB cards and play the deck like Survival!

Also, looking at your posted list, why play 3 Survival of the Fittest and 3 Natural Order? These are the cards that make you win! I can understand 3 Order but seriously, there is no reason to not run 4 Survival of the Fittest!

Kesta

03-17-2009, 10:17 AM

Anything new about testing? I played with my list and found that the Gob matchup is quite hard as the combo one.

Does anyone has any report or additionnals information about improvement for this Deck?

Brgds

Moczoc

03-17-2009, 11:27 AM

Yes, I've made the same experience, I've lost a lot of games against Goblin and Sliver decks. I'm not shure how these matchups can be Improved, Gloomdrifter and Bane of the Living are too slow.

soiber2000

03-18-2009, 04:42 PM

Hello, I'm new but I've been reading the source for a long time.

I have some experience with this deck in my city (Badalona, Spain) where it is a monthly tournament league with an average of 70-80 people. It is Lliga Catalana Legacy (you can find the top 8's in deckcheck.net).

I ended up 10th of 77 in february, tied with 8th, and 18th of 70 in march with my Order Survival deck:

4 Birds of paradise
4 Wall of roots
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Kitchen finks
2 Eternal witness
1 Harmonic sliver
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis
1 Dimir house guard
1 Progenitus
4 Natural Order
3 Survival of the fittest
3 Swords to plowshares
3 Pernicious deed
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal therapy
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Windswept heath
2 Polluted delta

I only put 3 survival and no squee because my idea is that this is not a normal survival deck, survival is only a way to find threats and discard progenitus. But in my last tournament I missed squee sometimes.

3xPernicous deed maindeck solves a lot of problems, specially goblins, merfolks, elves, enchantress, and so on.

I put 1xdimir house guard as a target to find when you have survival out and wants an order. I've been thinking to add a small toolbox to maximize the guard's targets but its quite clunky.

The deck can beat everything in my meta, but it has some trouble against blue, expecially landstill and against combo.

Sideboard is in constant change, because I haven't found the correct numbers and answers to blue and combo, I've tried 4xOrim's chant, 1xCanonist, 1xVexing, 4xduress, but I am not very pleased about them.

swarm187

03-18-2009, 05:48 PM

Well,
After some testing I've come to agree that Maelstrom Archangel isn't right in this deck at all...it's just too slow and takes away from the overall cohesiveness of the deck.

I have tested a number of different ideas within the Natural Order/Progenitus shell and I agree with the post above, Pernicious Deed works well here. I originally wanted to stay away from making this deck too "Rock-like", but Deed deals with a lot of crap that Survival decks have a tough time with...mainly aggro like Goblins.

I will also say that Wickerbough Elder and Xantid Swarm have been outstanding for me. I was running into real trouble with Counter/Top early in games, unable to cast crucial spells like mana dorks or STPs because of the lock. Wickerbough Elder is great in this respect, if you can get the mana out to play him. Xantid Swarm was particularly good against control too, since it blocks half of the control player's strength: counter magic. Once you attack, even if it's for no damage, you are free to play spells in your second main-phase without the worry of counters coming through. I can't tell you how much that meant when casting the pivital Natural Order, knowing there was nothing they could do about it.
Of course you have to worry about bounce spells, but eliminating your opponent's spells during your turn is huge.

I like the idea of transmuting the House Guard, but I agree, it may be too clunky.

I still like Noble Heirarch over Wall of Roots because it wins 'Goyf battles and produces two of your three colors.

If you're thinking of putting Orim's Chants in, I might also test Abeyance. Although it's not as powerful, if you're looking to cast it during your turn to pull of a Natural Order, it gets you a card on top of the same effect...unless your opponent is playing Venser. Although Orim's Chant is strictly better than Abeyance when played during your opponent's upkeep, I think they're both worth a look.
I also think Ghostly Prison and Kataki, War's Wage need consideration, at least in sideboard schemes.

Kesta

03-19-2009, 12:38 PM

>>soiber2000
Hello, nice 1st post :) I'm new too and playtesting this deck.

Is it possible to have a small report of your tournament? Maybe it could help?

Well, i don't really like the dimir house guard, i prefer to run something like Diabolic Intent (even if it's not a creature) it can bring you a Deed or a SotF when you need it. I like playing Spore Frog too and Faerie Macabre, but there's no room for more random picks.

I played a lot Survival Rock, which is quite good with Deed and sometimes RecNightmare (nasty with Witness) adding Natural Progenitus is really hard, in this build it's just impossible, you can't cut enough, in my point of view.

I have a tournament on Sunday, I maybe will play this deck, depending of the meta.

I'll give you a report in this case.

Brgds

Moczoc

03-23-2009, 07:40 AM

Hi, yesterday I played this deck at the big Legacy Tournament in Dülmen (~80 People)

My list:

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Anger
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Norwood Priestess
1 Progenitus
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Wall of Roots
1 Stinkweed Imp

Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Natural Order
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Duress

Lands
4 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest

Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Engineered Plague
4 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Phantom Nishoba

A small Report:

Rd1 Benedict with Enchantress:
He stalls me with Elephant Grass, I never draw my boarded Grips.
0-2

Rd2 Marc with Burn:
I lose game 1 against Pop.
I win the second with Order on Phantom Nishoba.
The third game is close. He burns me down to 2 and goes into the topdeck mode, I survival Anger EOT into Grave and get Nishoba. Next turn I play Priestess, tap, Nishoba beats for 7.
2-1

Rd3 Gerrit with Burn:
His PoP's didn't arrive yet with the post, I'm lucky.
2-0

Rd4 Dennis with Team America (-Fow +O.Ring and Deed):
I only draw a few lands, he destroys them.
0-2

Rd5 Alex with WBG Control:
In game 1 Progenitus races Elspeth.
I play Aggro with Goyf and Doran, he waits for WoG and stalls the game with Finks and Stronghold, I play Engineered Plague on "Ouphe" :D
2-0

Rd6 Julian with Uw control (+Bomberman+Painter):
The deck doesn't work the way he wants it to. Wickerbough Elder stalls the combo-win long enough.
2-1

Rd7 Jan with Landstill:
I lose both games to Dust Bowl.
0-2

-> Result 4-3

The deck was quite good, but I have to play more basic lands. I think I'll drop white to make that possible.

I consider the following changes:

-1 Wall of Roots +1 Forest
-2 Doran +2 Finks
-2 StP + 1 Fleshbag Marauder +1 Terror (or Putrefy)
-2 Savannah +1 Swamp +1 Forest
-1 Heath +1 Bloodstained Mire
-1 Foothills +1 Bloodstained Mire

SB
-3 Choke +1 Duress +1 Cabal Th. +1 Thoughtseize
-1 Krosan Grip +1 Wickerbough Elder

:smile:

Kesta

03-23-2009, 08:50 AM

Well, i played this deck yesterday:

3 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Genesis
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw
1 Spore Frog (amazing)
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress (had no thoughtseize)
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order

3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
6 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

SB:
2 Krosan Grip -> counterbalance, dread, vial, needle, ...
2 Engineered Plague -> Gob, elves, merfolk, faeries
1 Enlightened Tutor -> get survival, and 8 SB cards
1 Empyrical ARchangel -> Burn, Gob, ...
3 Tormod's Crypt -> ichorid, Loam, ...
2 Duress -> combo
1 Vexing Susher -> counterthings
1 Serenity -> Affinity, stacks, counterbalance...
1 Jitte -> any agro things
1 Pernicious Deed -> obvious

Now the report. 5 rounds, 28 players, lot of random decks (burns, stacks, elves, gob, affinity, ANT, discard, slivers, CBtop, fish, faeries) :)

1th round: Gob
game1: i kept a good hand, he manage to pass a lackey drop piledriver, i defend with tarmo to get a spore frog genesis lock and NO progenitus win
game2: again decent hand, same game but faster ;)

1:0

2nd round: GB tarmorack (my brother :( ) we know each other deck by heart.
game1: he discarded my 2nd land with tourach, then 2nd tourach discarded NO + Deed, then smallpox get rid of my last land, but after i started to topdeck until his dead while he droped only lands.
game2: i droped a survival ->multi tarmo GG

2:0 i was happy because top of players all play CB (good MU for me)

3rd round: Fish landstill :(
game1: he started, i first turn duress him for a FoW, then he droped a Meddling Mage and guess what he said Pernicious Deed, the only removal i draw this game (tried a survival with standstill in play -> FoW :()
game2: i started, wanted to wait to have 1 mana spare to avoid daze for my survival but he droped a Meddling mage on Survival (i shouldnt have tried to play it the first game :( then i drew no removal (what a shame)

2:1

4th round: ANT (i didn't found a gaddock teeg and an ethersworn canonist in time for the SB against combo)
game1: i discard him a bit, but he manage to do a nice ad Nauseam droped him at 5 and 10 spell enough mana tendril (canonist would have save me)
game2: exaclty the same except that i should have take a witness to play a duress again and i was focussed on droping his life.

2:2

5th round: Loam agro with discard
game1: we both started good, but he manage to topdeck a Devasting Dreams and play it at 6 while he had a crusher in play --> gg
game2: i started turn 3 Progenitus GG
game3: he started with thoughtseize -> NO, mox duress -> NO :( i never saw anything but discard and he topdecked 2 tarmo -> GG

i finished with 2:3 at the rank 14#

i'm quite disapointed because i didn't encountered any CB top which is a good MU for me, i was happy to kick gob's ass, because it can be quite hard.
I'm sure this combo is better in a threshold shell or an elf one, but it's really nice to play this list. The biggest problem i think is that you need more room for a fourth StP and more discard spells. I played NO 3times and it always lead to a win. I tried to play a nonTarmo version with much more control but it's even worst against combo.

Well i'm off, hope you enjoyed my report (sry for my bad english). BRGDS

K

zulander

03-25-2009, 09:17 PM

Other than hand disruption, how do you deal with NOThresh?

Moczoc

03-26-2009, 10:09 AM

If NOThresh means Thrash with Natural Order and Progenitus:

- win the damagerace because our Progenitus has haste and we have Kitchen Finks
- play Diabolic Edict or Fleshbag Marauder
- play Spore Frog + Genesis

soiber2000

03-27-2009, 05:47 PM

I don't understand why people don't like wall of roots. It has three roles in the deck: 1-stops agro (gobs, merfolks, sligh), 2-accelerates, specially with survival you can use it two times in a turn (yours and the opponnent's) and 3- it's a perfect target for Natural Order. I think it is a must, with 3 or 4 in the deck.

Now I am testing norwood priestess with anger and squee, and it is showing promising results, but with another color (taiga) I am more worried with land destruction and Blood moon, so I am thinking how it would work without white. Harmonic sliver is easily changed with wickerbough, but swords to plowshares is an all star,may be with putrefy and fleshbag marauder. That's what I want to test now.
I've also cut genesis because it is slow.

georgjorge

03-28-2009, 09:57 PM

If NOThresh means Thrash with Natural Order and Progenitus:

- win the damagerace because our Progenitus has haste and we have Kitchen Finks

Two Progenitals will NEVER have a damage race.

Kesta

03-29-2009, 09:40 AM

soiber2000

03-29-2009, 10:17 AM

I really like the Wall of Roots, but i had to find some place, I tested without and it worked pretty well.

If you want to cut white you have to find a nice creature removal tool:
-add some shriekmaw, Big Game Hunter, Fleshbag marauder
-Smother (can kill almost every treath of the metagame)
-Diabolic edict (lots of don't play that much creature)

I think white can be cut for this point but for your SB you need it! Gaddock teeg, ethersworn canonist, ...

I don't really like the red splash, but if you say that it's good with the Priestress, why not?

I'd like to test:
3xpernicious deed
2xsmother
1xshierkmaw
1xbgh
1xfleshbag marauder

as the creature removal spots.

I'm still testing red, I'm not 100% sure about it, but I find it some usefull. You are true with white in SB, but black and red has good SB options against combo. More testing is needed.

Moczoc

03-29-2009, 11:24 AM

Two Progenitals will NEVER have a damage race.

? Heh, you're right, it's a Legend. Then I've got a plan that is even better. If my opponent has Progenitus, I play mine too to destroy both, then, I'll get mine again with Witness on Natural Order or Survival for Norwood Priestess and Prog.

evilfred

04-12-2009, 10:30 AM

? Heh, you're right, it's a Legend. Then I've got a plan that is even better. If my opponent has Progenitus, I play mine too to destroy both, then, I'll get mine again with Witness on Natural Order or Survival for Norwood Priestess and Prog.

No need to witness the Progenitus as it is shuffled back in your librairy automaticaly. Look for yourself.

Progenitus
Card text: Protection from everything
If Progenitus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Progenitus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.

Valdez

04-12-2009, 11:32 AM

No need to witness the Progenitus as it is shuffled back in your librairy automaticaly. Look for yourself.
he wrote: "Witness on Natural Order".

? Heh, you're right, it's a Legend. Then I've got a plan that is even better. If my opponent has Progenitus, I play mine too to destroy both, then, I'll get mine again with Witness on Natural Order or Survival for Norwood Priestess and Prog.
counterbalance and gouyfs would never win games, if magic would work the way you imagine...

My list:

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Anger
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Norwood Priestess
1 Progenitus
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Wall of Roots
1 Stinkweed Imp

Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Natural Order
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Duress

Lands
4 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest

Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Engineered Plague
4 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Phantom Nishoba

why do you...
... need hunter and maw..?
... need nishoba and angel..?
... play a 3/2/2 ts,/therapy/duress split..?
... play only 1 witness..?
... 1of wall..?
... play hierarch over bird in a deck with 7 black spells md and 3 in sb.
... play only 2 stp..?
... play the imp..? (seriously WTF?)

you have some kind of natural order fixation, why else would you play awful cards like boseju in the board..?
the list looks almost like a vintage deck, without a reason, it has no focus (except for no) + you simply consede to early counterbalances in g1, without deed/vindicate, if you can't resolve order.

Moczoc

04-13-2009, 06:44 PM

counterbalance and gouyfs would never win games, if magic would work the way you imagine...

Well, at least it’s a late game / topdeckmode plan. And I only need survival and a few lands to get the machine started.

why do you...
1)... need hunter and maw..?
2)... need nishoba and angel..?
3)... play a 3/2/2 ts,/therapy/duress split..?
4)... play only 1 witness..?
5)... 1of wall..?
6)... play hierarch over bird in a deck with 7 black spells md and 3 in sb.
7)... play only 2 stp..?

1) hunter is very strong and absolutely needed, maw may be debatable but it’s not a bad card and I want something for creatures that can’t be killed by hunter.

2) I want two big creatures with shroud in the maindeck for N.Order because you often will have one stuck in you hand. Nishoba is an importand SB-card for matchups in that you need lifegain but do not fear StP like burn/sligh.

3) It’s personal preference . I tried 4 CT + 4 TS but losing 6 life on turn 2 (two fetches + two TS) mattered too much for me. Than I could not often flashback CT because N.Order needs a creature too.

4) So far, Witness is the weakest card in the deck. I’m on the edge too cut her.

5) This inclusion was dumb, you use it, then it dies to a 4/5 Goyf ~~

6) Many people look at Hierarch with some kind of prejudice (-> “a creature that produces GWU belongs into a GWU deck”). I rather see her as a better Llanowar Elf. With her exalted ability she has won me a lot of games pumping Goyf/Doran/Finks.

7) 2 StP + 1 Hunter + 1 Maw = 4 removal, I couldn’t fit more into the deck

the list looks almost like a vintage deck, without a reason, it has no focus (except for no) + you simply consede to early counterbalances in g1, without deed/vindicate, if you can't resolve order.

It doesn’t mean there is no focus when I split possible 4 of’s into different cards, after all only the function counts.
Against counterbalance I play Grip in the board. In the maindeck I can still play Finks, some other cards, or the best: survival for Wickerbough Elder.

At the moment I’m working on my new list without white. I think it will contain more one more Wickerbough E., more Finks and some Snuff Out’s

evilfred

04-15-2009, 10:19 PM

Hey have you thought about Nath of the Gilt-Leaf?

Card type: Legendary Creature
Creature type: Elf Warrior
Power/Toughness:4/4
Casting cost: 3BG
Card text: At the beginning of your upkeep, you may have target opponent discard a card at random.
Whenever an opponent discards a card, you may put a 1/1 green Elf Warrior creature token into play.

Might be a crappy idea but I though I'd mention it.

Moczoc

05-21-2009, 11:48 AM

I took this deck to the big Trader tournament again and made 6th place (of 60-70 people?) playing 5-2

This time I played a G/B list with many basics and without white because I didn't want to lose against Wasteland / PoP and Magus of the Moon again.

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Big Game Hunter
2 Wickerbough Elder
1 Anger
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Norwood Priestess
1 Progenitus
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Cloudthresher

Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Natural Order
2 Duress
2 Snuff Out

Lands
4 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
7 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire

SIDEBOARD
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Phantom Nishoba
1 Spore Frog
1 Genesis
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Primeval Light

Guido with Goyf Sligh 2-1
Lifegain slowed down this match, then I survivaled for my Priestess who summoned Nishoba :)

Stefan with Loampox 2-1
It's not a good matchup, and his deck played some mean tricks with Spellweaver Helix, but I've won with discard + aggro mode. I always had to keep some other creatures around Progenitus not to lose against Innocent Blood or Smallpox

Sydney with Goyfsligh 2-0
Phantom Nishoba striked again, with Exalted and Haste

Raphael with Tempothresh 2-1
I always Discarded his Coatl and won the third match beating him down just with Anger and Magus of the Moon

Simon with Goyfsligh 1-2
He always stopped my Lifegain with Sulfuric Vortex

Dirk with Ugw Merfolk 2-1
I slowed him down with Engineered Plague and won with Priestess who summoned Progenitus and Cloudthresher

Tobias with ITF 1-2
I was tired and played very bad in this match, I think it could have been a draw or win for me :/

-> 5:2 and 6th place. i won a revised Bayou

I like this version of the deck very much, and it has become quite strong and now has lesser bad matchups

For the future, I consider to cut Cloudthresher because I never needed him (he was originally included as a 2nd NO target that can be hardcastet too). And I want to include Darkheart Sliver in the SB to have recurrable lifegain with Genesis.

have fun :cool:

Anusien

05-21-2009, 12:05 PM

Why Norwood Priestess over Elvish Piper?

Moczoc

05-21-2009, 12:19 PM

because you need 1 mana less. A very common situation is: Search for Priestess and Nishoba (or you drew one of the parts or searched for it eot), play her with your last 4 mana, tap her (has haste), put Nishoba into play, attack for the win!

Kesta

05-21-2009, 01:19 PM

Congratz for the result.

I like your list but i have some questions:

1. Why no shriekmaw
2. Don't understand cloudtresher, Woodfall primus, Empyrial Archangel or Nishoba main deck could be much more better
3. Don't really like the Priestress, i prefer dimir house guard as NO tutor
4. Don't understand your 3.2.2 for thoughtseize duress and therapy, you should play 4 seize and 3 therapy (for sac creature like elder, BGH even finks for genesis recursion)

BRGDS

Moczoc

05-21-2009, 01:36 PM

1. Big Game Hunter + Fleshbag Marauder is enough, Marauder is just better in that slot. With Hunter + Shriekmaw I lost game against Nimble Mongooses or Hypnotic Specter. I would be possible to switch to Shriekmaw+Fleshbag

2.

I consider to cut Cloudthresher because I never needed him (he was originally included as a 2nd NO target that can be hardcastet too)

I will either play Nishoba in that slot or completely remove it in its funktion.

3. That tech would be too mana intensive, try Priestess, she rocks.

4.

It’s personal preference . I tried 4 CT + 4 TS but losing 6 life on turn 2 (two fetches + two TS) mattered too much for me. Than I could not often flashback CT because N.Order needs a creature too.

The only change I could imagine would be -1 TS +1 CT

Kesta

05-26-2009, 12:08 PM

Then you speak about life (thoughtseize and fetch) but you play 2 snuff out, why? i know it's a damn good creature removal but it often costs you 4 life. Shriekmaw could be better i think (tutorable, recursion with genesis, 3/2 fear)

Well my list looks pretty like yours, but i added the white part for swords loxodon hierarch and qasali pridemage.

soiber2000

07-27-2009, 07:13 PM

I see no love for this deck for months, but I have to say that I like it very much. This weekend I finished 11th of a 65 people tournament with a 5-2 record, tied up for the last place for the top8. Very bad luck... My list was:

3 bayou
2 scrubland
2 savannah
4 windswept heath
2 bloodstained mire
1 volrath's stronghold
1 plains
2 swamps
4 forest

3 Noble hierarch
1 Birds of paradise
3 Wall of roots
2 Qasali pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen finks
2 Eternal witness
2 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis
1 Squee
1 Progenitus

4 Swords to plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Survival of the fittest
4 Natural order

SB:

4 Choke
4 Ethersworm canonyst
3 Krosan grip
2 Tormod's crypt
2 Pernicious deed

I feel very confortable with this deck and I would only change 1 Shriekmaw for 1 flesbag marauder and the last birds for the 4th noble. I had problems against land hate (wasteland, stifle, etc) but it's the price for running swords and Qasali (in my opinion, a must). The best creature all tournament was finks, saving me a lot of games and giving me the tempo to control and combo.

Thougtseize is the perfect answer to blue-based decks, and also genesis and volrath's help in those matchups.

win: Lanstill, zoo, 5c zoo, goblins, Dreadstill
Lose: Canadian thresh, faeries.

I had very very bad luck against canadian in the last match (triple submerge to my tarmo with a choke in play and making mongoose unblockable 3 turns), and flying faeries were a nightmare (cloud of faries, spellstutters, vendilions...), but I think those matchups were winable, specially with 4 chokes sideboard.

One thing I have to say: I was lucky to not play against ANT, witch is a great contender in my meta.

I would be happy to have some advice with this deck. Thank you!