Krosan Grip in the main? GP musing.

[jazzykat]

As the Legacy GP is coming up I was toying with the idea of playing multiple Krosan Grips in the main in a blue based deck that also ran counterbalance.

It seems to me that since it's almost never a dead card and can sometimes be gamebreaking that it might be worth making some room MD in perhaps: Thresh, Dreadstill, Landstill, and all of their variants with the exception of TA because TA is so aggressive.

Of course the question asks itself, what do you cut? Well the initial reaction is to cut what you would have sided out for the Grips, but I'm not convinced that is always the best course of action.

The other question I asked myself is, does this weaken yourself too much to combo and dedicated aggro. Both of which could potentially have won or run away with the game before you can get CB/top online and where Grip would be lackluster until you could make it to turn three and actually tap out for it (even then there may be no targets...).

On the flip side, if you are playing green then you have goyfs in the MD which are fantastic vs. aggro so while you are making your aggro matchup worse it may not have been awful to begin with.

Adding grip to your MD will objectively make your combo matchup worse IMO. Waiting until turn three and gripping an artifact mana source in your opponents endstep is not my idea of awesome. Alternatively, shipping it with a BS/Fetch isn't really that hot because you may have wanted to unload 2 lands.

I'm really interested to see what everyone else thinks, and while a poll would have made it easy for people to answer, the "why" is more important this time than the actual yes/no answer.

[Phantom]

I think most people would choose to run Engineered Explosives in that spot, right? Seems like the tradeoff in speed (and other factors) is made up for by running a broader card in the mainboard.

[emidln]

The slot that it would likely take up (EE) isn't all that amazing about combo either (although both can hit LEDs if your opponent isn't careful). I doubt 1-2 slots for Krosan Grip will significantly affect whether you can beat combo. On the other hand, maindeck Krosan Grip does significantly affect whether you can beat other CB decks. Grip also costs 3 making your own counterbalances a bit better in certain scenarios.

[TrialByFire]

The slot that it would likely take up (EE) isn't all that amazing about combo either (although both can hit LEDs if your opponent isn't careful). I doubt 1-2 slots for Krosan Grip will significantly affect whether you can beat combo. On the other hand, maindeck Krosan Grip does significantly affect whether you can beat other CB decks. Grip also costs 3 making your own counterbalances a bit better in certain scenarios.

EE is very good against combo, killing Moxen, LEDs, and Goblin tokens. Miles ahead of Grip. Although I have been running 1 Grip maindeck in Tempo Thresh (instead of one of the Rushing Rivers) for a while and its been great almost every time I've drawn it.

[Doks]

Depending on the blue cards count, Krosan Grip could fill the usual flexible slot in Landstill used for Spell Snare.

I am not sure about Dreadstill running Grip since there is soooo little room because you definately don't want to cut your tempo cards nor do you want to weaken the combo.
In addition, I thought most people say R was the best splash, but that's not really a reason.

[jazzykat]

I don't want to derail this too much off the topic of MD Grip or not but, spell snare is INCREDIBLE in today's metagame and also provides a godly answer to counterbalance.

[emidln]

EE is very good against combo, killing Moxen, LEDs, and Goblin tokens. Miles ahead of Grip. Although I have been running 1 Grip maindeck in Tempo Thresh (instead of one of the Rushing Rivers) for a while and its been great almost every time I've drawn it.

Opponents who lose LED to EE are doing so on purpose (i.e. they are baiting you to make ETW better) or are terrible players. The only thing that makes EE better is the potential to nab ETW tokens (although ANT doesn't play ETW and TES rarely casts it) and the fact that it costs 1 less (perhaps letting you blow up a single mox (though you're unlikely to ever hit LED). I wouldn't call that miles and KGrip is better against the ANT and FT builds playing SDT.

For reference:

EE is better vs TES
EE is on par with KGrip against ANT (no top)
KGrip is better against ANT/FT (SDT)
Both suck vs Solidarity
EE is better vs Dredge
EE is better vs Breakfast (you can theoretically put it at 2 and maybe kill enough creatures to make Dread Return not feasible).
KGrip is better vs Painter (although EE is feasible if your opponent runs out Grindstone early)
KGrip is better vs (Imperial) Aluren (a slight chance that they don't therapy it (kgrip) out of your hand is better than the almost non-existent chance of EE for 4).

[Omega]

i am considering running 2 md grip myself.

Fast/lucky CB can end the game on their own. Having some outs is not a bad idea.

Whether EE or K.Grip is better... I think EE has the advantage of hitting more permanents. You can easily take down 2+ 1cc/2cc permanents ie if your opponent is going aggro. I will concede that EE is not ideal against Aggro. They are usually too fast for EE

Robert

[Rood]

K-Grip was alot stronger back when TA wasn't around. It used to be run in a few Dreadstill lists but ever since TA started being prevalent everywhere it got bumped back down into the sideboard. Also it's pretty bad against almost all tribe which are seeing alot more play now.

[rockout]

It's not awful against because it hits vial in goblins, b2b vial and possibly shackles in merfoll and basically the same cards in any other tribal deck. That being said once your opponent knows you have grip main he can easily play around by retaining priority and blowing ee/deed before grip. I still think it's amazing kaindeck and should be included in dreadstill builds. I also used to run uwg landstill and gripping a dreadnaught or a factory is oh so satisfying. If it fits your playstyle I'd run it main.

I missed a part. Ee is definitely better.

[Captain Hammer]

I don't think Krosan Grip is always useful.

There's a lot of random decks where it's useless.

Team America, Zoo, Eva Green, Doran Suicide, Burn, Goblins, Goyf Sligh, Ichorid and several others.

I would maindeck creature removal or stuff like Oblivion Ring or Vindicate but probably not Krosan Grips.

[mercenarybdu]

If you could fit it in your SB, then great.

Otherwise, use that space for something else...

[Forbiddian]

... On the other hand, maindeck Krosan Grip does significantly affect whether you can beat other CB decks. Grip also costs 3 making your own counterbalances a bit better in certain scenarios.

I think this is a generally wrong - yet widely espoused - view of Counterbalance curves.

Counterbalance decks want spells that cost 1 and 2 mana to face off against other CB decks. Although obviously the fact that it costs 3 would make your counterbalances better in CERTAIN circumstances, in the vast plurality of situations, you want something that costs 1-2, especially game 1 when your opponent is unlikely to be running Krosan Grip himself!

If we're going to bring up any advantage gleaned from having a 3cc spell on top of your deck so you can counter your opponent's... uh... Intuition (or maybe Krosan Grip?), we have to bring up situations where you fail to counter a 0, 1, 2, or 5cc spell (depending on which card(s) you cut for Kgrip).



Sorry for the quote mine, but I've seen this argument (in more flamboyant terms) asserting that cards from Kgrip to Fact or Fiction to Misdirection should be run. The rest of the post has really good direction, but I see the 3cc as a liability with regards to your own CB engine rather than an asset.

Look at the decks that run Counterbalance. Look at their curves. It's not a coincidence that everything is 1-2. Their curves mirror (and even become a bastardized parody of) the average curve of all decks in the metagame. Why? You want to maximize the probability that your flip kills something of your opponent's. It's much less likely that your opponent will cast a 3cc spell than 1 or 2, thus you DON'T generally want a 3cc on top. Fortuitously flipping your own Kgrip to stop your opponent's always makes for a good laugh, but a 1cc spell is the way to bet.

[emidln]

I think this is a generally wrong - yet widely espoused - view of Counterbalance curves.

Counterbalance decks want spells that cost 1 and 2 mana to face off against other CB decks.

In my quote, I didn't assert that there were scenarios against other CB decks where costing three is better (although those exist countering things like Blood Moon, Vedalken Shackles, Trygon Predator, Threads of Disloyalty, Oblivion Ring, Pernicious Deed, and Intuition) because you don't need the help against CB decks (just under 2/3 of your deck already costs 1 or 2 mana). Costing 3 mana is extremely relevant against non-counterbalance decks like Stax, Aggro Loam, Imperial Painter, MUC, and Rock (and probably others that don't come to mind immediately) most of which happen to be bad matchups for CB decks.

[FoolofaTook]

One grip in a control deck that's planning to pace the game out is not hard to defend at all. It's a one card answer to a lot of things that cause problems for control. It also is a 3cc spell and that never hurts in a Counterbalance shell.

More than one is probably very iffy right now because of the matchups where it's just a dead card. I kind of look at Krosan Grip the same way I look at Moat, and I think any deck that splashes green that would choose to play a singleton Moat probably should be thinking about a singleton Krosan Grip too. Between them they're almost guaranteed to have one of them be powerfully relevant to your chances.

[Atwa]

In the IcBE Goyf Control list I made a year and a half ago, I've alway ran 1 Grip and 2 Seal of Primordium maindeck (along with 2 EE, 3 Deed and 3 Vindicate), the cards were never dead draws.

Remember that this was before the printing of Painter Servant and the errata update of Dreadnought. This was even before Counter-Top became heavily played.

If your deck can support it (extra cards in the 3cc slot and open space for meta-slots) I would defenatly play some sort of artifact/enchantment hate maindeck.

[Forbiddian]

In my quote, I didn't assert that there were scenarios against other CB decks where costing three is better (although those exist countering things like Blood Moon, Vedalken Shackles, Trygon Predator, Threads of Disloyalty, Oblivion Ring, Pernicious Deed, and Intuition) because you don't need the help against CB decks (just under 2/3 of your deck already costs 1 or 2 mana). Costing 3 mana is extremely relevant against non-counterbalance decks like Stax, Aggro Loam, Imperial Painter, MUC, and Rock (and probably others that don't come to mind immediately) most of which happen to be bad matchups for CB decks.

Irrelevant, it's still going to be a liability more often than it helps. Against certain matchups, it might be good, but on the whole, it's bad (and I mentioned that in my post).

The maindeck is typically reserved for cards that are on the whole good, and the discussion is about Krosan Grip going into the main. Again, there's a very good reason why decks running CB curve out at 2 (and decks curving out at more than 2 do not run CB). Having a 3cc spell on top, in most matchups, is not good (there, I added another qualifier).

[emidln]

It is exactly because the rest of your deck curves out at 2 that playing some number of 3cc cards, particularly something as versatile as kgrip, is good. In the counterbalance mirror, even with 2 kgrips on top and no way to shuffle them, this is going to happen for, at max, 1 turn before you are seeing two other cards. This is a similar situation to seeing 2 lands on top + 1 other spell. The bonus that some number of 3cc spells gives you is against opponents who aren't playing CB. It is these matchups that CB decks tend to have extreme difficulty game one and helping these matchups is far more valuable than squeezing in a small percentage of extra blind flips against the mirror. That the 3cc spell in question is actually amazing against other blue-based control decks, particularly those that play CB, because you cast it for a useful effect is even more reason to play it over extra one or two drops.