G/R/B Zoo

[jimmerz213]

This idea was brought up by Captain Hammer and I think its an interesting deck as well. R/G/W Zoo has been becoming more popular it seems, and is still t8ing a lot, that thread can be found Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6014). This thread however is all about Black. Its a strong color, but is it strong enough to replace white in Zoo?
Lets take a look at some creatures first. The red and green creatures will be pretty standard.

Red:
Kird Ape, Mogg Fanatic, Lavamancer, Figure of Destiny

Green:
Goyf, Wild Nacatl, Nimble Mongoose, Quiron Dryad

Red + Green:
??

Black:
Tombstalker, ??

Now..Im not 100% sold on Tombstalker in this deck. It has an obvious dis-synergy with Goyf and mongoose, however that being said: the discard spells your going to run very well could negate that by filling up your opponents graveyard for goyf. Mongoose however is still out of luck.

Nacatl also doesnt seem like a sure fit anymore with the lack of white, however a 2/2 for 1 is still a nice creature, just may not be optimal anymore.

The spells are where I think black is going to be better than white. Edict can get rid of creatures StP and O Ring cant, the discard will seriously disrupt your opponent, and blightling. I just love that card.

Heres a sample deck list...its going to be a very very rough draft, but its a start.


//land
2 swamp
1 forest
1 mountain
3 bayous
4 taigas
3 Badlands
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mires

//creatures
4 goyf
4 fanatic
4 dryad
3 kird ape
3 wild mongoose
2 tombstalker

//spells
4 bolt
4 chain lightning
4 blightling
4 duress
4 edict (chainers, diabolic, or cruel)



This is an interesting twist for Zoo. I dont know if it would be more effective than RGW but Id love to find out.

As for Sideboards, they are generally meta specific so Ive omitted one now, but I figure it would have targeted GY hate (extirpate, relic, what have you) and probably grips and ReBs.

[Guevera59]

Thoughtseize >>>>>>> Duress. Might try snuff out instead of edict? This is certainly tons of life loss in conjunction with seize but this allows you to extend further with burn and beaters. I feel as if edict is inferior to snuff out in this sense, also, what does edict get that snuff doesn't? Stalker and Mongoose and Confidant. Mongoose doesn't matter as your creatures are bigger and Stalker and Confidant can be burned away/blocked. Dryad is awful. I feel as if more Stalkers should be tested: 3-4. Perhaps hyppie or rotting giant? Also, you def. need 8x Fetches to support teh Wombstalker.

Hope this helps,
G59

[Captain Hammer]

4 Thoughtseize + 4 Snuff Out + 3 Reanimate are autoincludes in this deck.

The synergy is insane, and all three cards are bombs. You reanimate either your own threat or the Goyf that you Snuffed Out are made your opponent discard. Just 1 mana to put the very best creature in any yard, or the best card that you made them discard is insane tempo.

Tombstalker is very strong too.

[metalman2785]

I would try something like,

Land:(20)
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Bayou
3 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mires

Creatures: (20)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kird Ape
4 Nimble Mongoose

Spells: (20)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Terminate
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Jitte
2 Top (reanimate could work here too)

Just realized how bad this deck gets hosed by CB, the top/reanimate slot could be maindeck K Grips in certain metas.

[Guevera59]

I feel as if DC should NOT be included as he is one slow motherfucker. This deck works off of CA from Discard and laying down the beats. Confidant beats for 2 in a farmot full of 5/5 12/12's and 4/5's. I think Tombstalker should be the focal point, a kind of RGB Eva Green.

[jimmerz213]

4 Thoughtseize + 4 Snuff Out + 3 Reanimate are autoincludes in this deck.


Thats a LOT of life loss. Not counting fetch's. You'd be playing a dangerous game. I definitly agree that Thoughtseize > duress though. And reanimate is amazing with it. I would suggest terminate over snuff out though, just to save the life.

Bob is bad in this deck. Very very bad. Turning over a tombstalker, you might as well scoop. The 2 tops take up space that could be used for better cards, and hes just not a strong beater as someone else mentioned.

Also, I wouldnt run 4 stalkers, 3 at most. For a couple reasons, your not going to have enough cards to play him easily and you really shouldnt ever have that much land in play, the game should be done by then.

[Guevera59]

Also, I wouldnt run 4 stalkers, 3 at most. For a couple reasons, your not going to have enough cards to play him easily and you really shouldnt ever have that much land in play, the game should be done by then.

Really? I disagree. With 4x Fanatics, 8x Fetches 4x Thoughtseize, and 8x Burn. There will be looadds of cards in the yard.

[metalman2785]

I feel as if DC should NOT be included as he is one slow motherfucker. This deck works off of CA from Discard and laying down the beats. Confidant beats for 2 in a farmot full of 5/5 12/12's and 4/5's. I think Tombstalker should be the focal point, a kind of RGB Eva Green.

1) He is not slow, he comes down turn 2 where as Tombstalker comes down turn three at the earliest.

2) This deck doesn't work off of card advantage from discard, thoughtsieze doesn't generate card advantage. Hymn generates CA, but it hasn't been included in a list, blightning does but that card is sub par.

3) Confidant doesn't just beat for two, he needs to be dealt with by your opponent, he wins games.


Bob is bad in this deck. Very very bad. Turning over a tombstalker, you might as well scoop. The 2 tops take up space that could be used for better cards, and hes just not a strong beater as someone else mentioned.

1) I never suggested running Tombstalker and Bob together.

2) There are better cards then top? If I am running 8 fetchlands and bob I want top.


I think that Bob or Tombstalker will work, but as discussed in the MBA thread the Bob builds are considered to be slightly superior. The argument that Bob isn't a strong enough beater doesn't make any sense. Kird Ape beats for 2, Nimble Mongoose beats for 3, yet they are considered good enough for the deck.

[jimmerz213]

1)

1) I never suggested running Tombstalker and Bob together.

2) There are better cards then top? If I am running 8 fetchlands and bob I want top.


I think that Bob or Tombstalker will work, but as discussed in the MBA thread the Bob builds are considered to be slightly superior. The argument that Bob isn't a strong enough beater doesn't make any sense. Kird Ape beats for 2, Nimble Mongoose beats for 3, yet they are considered good enough for the deck.

I probably could have worded my reply better, sorry. I do think Bob is a good card, and if your not running top with Bob then thats bad news bears. Together, theyre rediculous. The main point I was trying to make was that it doesnt really fit well in the deck. IMO anyway, Im new to a black splash so I may be wrong.

And as for Bob being a beater, hes a 2/1, so yea, he beats as hard as kird ape, but he cant chump block as well. Same with Mongoose (who also cant be stp'd/o ringed/burned).



Really? I disagree. With 4x Fanatics, 8x Fetches 4x Thoughtseize, and 8x Burn. There will be looadds of cards in the yard.

And yea, that is true but your not going to hit half of them in one game also. If this was some kind of control deck, then sure Id go for it, but its supposed to win quick and decisively.

[metalman2785]

I probably could have worded my reply better, sorry. I do think Bob is a good card, and if your not running top with Bob then thats bad news bears. Together, theyre rediculous. The main point I was trying to make was that it doesnt really fit well in the deck. IMO anyway, Im new to a black splash so I may be wrong.

I understand where you are coming from. You guys are taking a different approach then I am, more of an Eva Green deck with a red splash. Tombstalker works great in that deck because you can disrupt your opponent early with thoughtseize, hymn, rituals and hypnotic spectar. They also run nantuko shade which is mana intensive, and gives you something to pump your mana into after you burn though your hand.

In a zoo type deck, we aren't running the 4x hymn/hippie's, there aren't shades to pump once we are outta cards.

We are gonna drop a lot of cheap creatures and burn spells early, while not forcing our opponent to discard heavily like Eva Green does. This is where Bob can help you stabilize and generate a consistent stream of threats.

[Guevera59]

Well, then I feel as if you need to make it Eva Green with red splash. Goyf Sligh has tried to splash black time and time again for DC and it has proven futile for he is slow. And yes, Even though he beats for 2 like kird ape. Ape comes down first turn, blocking Lackeys and Factories. Also, DC is on NO way faster than Stalker. So what if it comes down a turn earlier, it comes down as 2/1 with a 10 turn clock. Stalker comes down as a 5/5 FLIER with a 4 turn clock. Stalker affects the game immediately. Its mere presence pressures your opponent. If you are at the point in which Bob is needed to bust out a steady stream of threats, then you have lost the game.

You should try testing Skyshroud Elite for the Goose. Mongoose takes ages, especially in a deck without cantrips, to make him an efficient beater.

I also believe that either Fireblast/Price of Progress/Magma Jet should replace Blightning. As you said, it IS sub-par.

[raharu]

Spells: 22
Thoughtseize x4
Lightning Bolt x4
Chain Lightning x4
Terminate x2
Snuff Out x3
Diabolic Edict x3
Krosan Grip/ Seal of Primordium x2

Creatures: 18
Kird Ape x4
Quirion Dryad x4
Tarmogoyf x4
Tombstalker x4
2 empty slots

20 lands

I think that the new strategy behind Zoo should be "Thread Advantage", i.e. while the rest of the format is aiming to protect it's threat and ride said singular threat to victory, while attempting to keep you off your threat, you, as the Zoo player, should aim to play tons of threats, run over their shit, and, if all else fails, pack a metric fuckton of removal so that the opponent cannot effectively counter all of it whilst synchronously keeping you off all of your threats, which is just about mandatory because you run 12 creatures that'll win the game and will most likely be as large/ larger than their win condition. Thoughts?

[jimmerz213]

Idk, I said this a couple posts back but maybe Im just not seeing the raw power of it, but Thoughtseize + Snuff out + fetchs = a lot of life loss from your own stuff. What about 3 Terminate and 2 Snuff Outs instead of the other way? I mean its still a lot of life but its a start.

For the two empty slots, what about jitte? Its creature heavy and slapping one on tombstalker is pretty much game. If your gonna run Ench/Arti hate mb, probably better to go with Seal, just so you can get it out of your hand and use it without having to worry about saving mana for it.

@Guevera - Skyshroud Elite is a good option, but I know in my meta I see a lot of mono colored decks (no non basics at all).

[raharu]

Well, Jitte is... iDunno. I'd rather play a large threat instead of equipment. On the topic of the removal suite, I really don't know which is best. I don't really like Snuff Out and would rather play 4 Edicts, 4 Terminates and call it good, but everyone has this hard-on for Snuff, soooo...

It feels like the deck is missing a threat. Something relatively large, maybe evasive. Ashenmoor Gouger? It works nicely enough in ghetto MBA. 4/4 is still rather large, even in today's metagame. Blastoderm? Boldwyr Heavyweights? Canker Abomination? Chameleon Colossus? Cosmic Larva? Dross Harvester? Goblin Goon? Grinning Demon? Horobi, Death's Wail? Rathi Dragon? Rumbling Slum? Spirit Monger? Fruitcake Elemental?

Personally, I think this is a job for Grave-Shell Scarab.

Maybe Firespout in the K. Grip slots?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Well, Jitte is... iDunno. I'd rather play a large threat instead of equipment. On the topic of the removal suite, I really don't know which is best. I don't really like Snuff Out and would rather play 4 Edicts, 4 Terminates and call it good, but everyone has this hard-on for Snuff, soooo...

It feels like the deck is missing a threat. Something relatively large, maybe evasive. Ashenmoor Gouger? It works nicely enough in ghetto MBA. 4/4 is still rather large, even in today's metagame. Blastoderm? Boldwyr Heavyweights? Canker Abomination? Chameleon Colossus? Cosmic Larva? Dross Harvester? Goblin Goon? Grinning Demon? Horobi, Death's Wail? Rathi Dragon? Rumbling Slum? Spirit Monger? Fruitcake Elemental?

Personally, I think this is a job for Grave-Shell Scarab.

Maybe Firespout in the K. Grip slots?

Lmao, is Fruitcake Elemental really legal in Legacy?

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I personally don't think that black could replace white in any way other than to benefit the combo matchup, which sucks enough already.

I mean you lose STP, Wild Nacatyl, FOD(Respectively), Woolly Thoctar, Gaddock Teeg, PTE(Meh).

I mean you do gain Tombstalker and discard and some meh removal, but is it really worth it?

[Elfrago]

Snuff Out is the nuts.
It kill's almost everything and can be played for free, so you can keep playing treats. Really, it has "TEMPO" written all over it's text box, and Zoo should aim at it as much as possible.

Terminate it's ok, but it still need's mana. Edict is shit, you only want to kill stuff that keeps you from attacking, and sometimes it will not get the job done.

For the same reason Dark Confidant gets the thumb down. Rather than play something that will eventually draw me some threats in the midgame, where my deck sucks , I'll play a real threat right now. It also keeps you away from Snuff Out and, mostly, Tombstalker wich is the best three drop you can have right now. Hell, it's the best creaure you can have right now!

What's the matter with the life loss? Eva green runs 4x Seizes, 4x Snuff Out, 8x Fetchlands and sometimes Reanimate, and it works just fine. Fine, it will hurt your burn matchup, but I guess you can live with that. If you're on the defensive and you're worring about you're life totals something has gone horribly wrong.

And I want to say it again, Stalker it's that good.

[Captain Hammer]

Very well said Elfrago. I completely agree with you on Tombstalker. It is one of the top 2 very best threats in the format.


Lmao, is Fruitcake Elemental really legal in Legacy?

LOL, Fruitcake Elemental (http://www.smileylich.com/mtg/fruitcake_elemental.jpg) is TECH.

An absolute bomb. I'm playing that in every green deck from now, right alongside Cheatyface.

[jimmerz213]

Snuff Out is the nuts.
It kill's almost everything and can be played for free, so you can keep playing treats. Really, it has "TEMPO" written all over it's text box, and Zoo should aim at it as much as possible.

Terminate it's ok, but it still need's mana. Edict is shit, you only want to kill stuff that keeps you from attacking, and sometimes it will not get the job done.

For the same reason Dark Confidant gets the thumb down. Rather than play something that will eventually draw me some threats in the midgame, where my deck sucks , I'll play a real threat right now. It also keeps you away from Snuff Out and, mostly, Tombstalker wich is the best three drop you can have right now. Hell, it's the best creaure you can have right now!

What's the matter with the life loss? Eva green runs 4x Seizes, 4x Snuff Out, 8x Fetchlands and sometimes Reanimate, and it works just fine. Fine, it will hurt your burn matchup, but I guess you can live with that. If you're on the defensive and you're worring about you're life totals something has gone horribly wrong.

And I want to say it again, Stalker it's that good.

I actually spent a good deal of time last night talking to a friend about this and I have to say, you are right. The life loss isnt terrible. Its not like your opening hand will have all of it in it. I think its my lack of playing an Eva Green/Sui Black deck before that has me a bit hesitant. I would be willing to give it a shot though.
I think edict would be better than snuff out in certain match ups (I face a lot of pro-*insert any color here* creatures in my meta) so the combo of burn and edict could get rid of them. Or even snuff out with edicts. I guess its just personal choice.

[Sims]

Is Blightning and a fistful of burn really a good enough reason to run Red over White? Your nacatl remains a 2/2 for G, you pick up better removal (Swords,PtE) and a better card than Blightning, imo, in Vindicate. Allows you to run Doran along side Goyf and Stalker....

I mean, is the Burn really doing it for you in this style of deck? I don't even see Jund Charm in any of these lists, which can be a blindside bomb... Hell I think Armadillo Cloak would probably be better than Blightning.

This is coming from someone who plays Mountains religiously... I just don't see the benefit Red gives over White in this style of deck.

[raharu]

Is Blightning and a fistful of burn really a good enough reason to run Red over White? Your nacatl remains a 2/2 for G, you pick up better removal (Swords,PtE) and a better card than Blightning, imo, in Vindicate. Allows you to run Doran along side Goyf and Stalker....

I mean, is the Burn really doing it for you in this style of deck? I don't even see Jund Charm in any of these lists, which can be a blindside bomb... Hell I think Armadillo Cloak would probably be better than Blightning.

This is coming from someone who plays Mountains religiously... I just don't see the benefit Red gives over White in this style of deck.
Red: Kird Ape, reach (srs bsns), possibly Pyrostatic Pillar, BOIL but nobody plays it :sad:

White: Isamaru, Swords to Plowshares (which I think will become obsolete when PtE rotates in), Vindicate.

Personally, I think RBg would be the best zoo list, looking something like this:

Spells: 22
Thoughtseize x4
Lightning Bolt x4
Chain Lightning x4
Terminate x4
Diabolic Edict x3
Firespout x3

Creatures: 18
Kird Ape x4
Quirion Dryad x3
Tarmogoyf x4
Ashenmoor Gouger x3
Tombstalker x4

20 lands

At any rate, the concept of BWg zoo sounds interesting, but you end up working torward either Doran Suicide or Truffle Shuffle/ Rock, which =\= Zoo, are not as fast, and lack reach.

[Captain Hammer]

Is Blightning and a fistful of burn really a good enough reason to run Red over White? Your nacatl remains a 2/2 for G, you pick up better removal (Swords,PtE) and a better card than Blightning, imo, in Vindicate. Allows you to run Doran along side Goyf and Stalker....

I mean, is the Burn really doing it for you in this style of deck? I don't even see Jund Charm in any of these lists, which can be a blindside bomb... Hell I think Armadillo Cloak would probably be better than Blightning.

This is coming from someone who plays Mountains religiously... I just don't see the benefit Red gives over White in this style of deck.

You make a good point. Doran and Vindicate are strong. And I would be interested in seeing a G/B/W Zoo list, feel free to post one.

But I've got to wonder if since you're already playing Tombstalker + Goyf + Doran, why not just play more broken disruption and land destruction and play Doran Sucide?

It would be cool to see a completely aggro disruptionless Zoo like take on G/B/W though. Any ideas for the build?

[raharu]

But I've got to wonder if since you're already playing Tombstalker + Goyf + Doran, why not just play more broken disruption and land destruction and play Doran Sucide?