What would you bring to a big unknown meta?

[Mordel]

I am not going to the GP, but I played an old friend on mws and the random homebrew jank serving me some humble pie got me thinking about what I would bring to a big metagame full of complete strangers.

I figured something like a more controllish midrange rock because it offers lots of broad answers, discard and has numerous utility dorks that can swing or draw-go style muc deck since that is an archetype that I feel very comfortable playing and b2b coupled with permission is usually stands at least a 50/50 chance as far as I am concerned.

What would you guys bring and why?

[Captain Hammer]

Lets consider some different archeatypes...

I have a copy of every single deck and example deck listed below built, and play them all off and on. So based on that...

Burn/Combo (ex: Belcher) - can lose to itself and to heavy disruption, stack control decks and sometimes stax, beats everything else

Ichorid - loses to leylines and other strong post board graveyard hate, and random pyroclasms and such, beats everything else.

Aggro (ex: Elves, 9 Land Stompy) - loses to board control, decks with bigger creatures that come out fast.

Stack Control Decks (ex: MUC) - Loses to aggroBeats aggro control

Stax (ex: Geddon Stax) - loses to burn, can beat combos if it resolves a trini/chalice early and can play out more fast. beats most other decks

Aggro Control (ex: Dreadgoyfstalker, TA (played this for a while and switched to Deadgoyfstalker when the lack of threats started annoying me) Threshold(dislike for same reason as TA, lack of threats)) - loses to heavy removal decks, overwhelmed by dedicated aggro decks, but does decent against everything else.

Eva Green/Doran Suicide - loses to heavy removal decks, does decent to good against everything else.

Fairie/Dragon Stompy - loses to itself and heavy disruption, but can beat everything else.

From these decks all of which I play, I honestly think Doran Suicide, Dreadgoyfstalker and Geddon Stax perform the most consistently well against the most matchups in that order. My favorite out of the three is probably Doran Suicide (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12432), but you'll probably think I'm biased.

[nitewolf9]

What:

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/wallpapers/movies/teamamerica_1024.jpg

Why:

http://atlmalcontent.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/kim.jpg

[Mordel]

Captain Hammah:

You really have a hard time against burn with geddon stax? I find with sphere of law, cotv and 3sphere I rape the shit out of them. The only rough thing is losing to a super lucky PoP before getting another cotv down or what have you.

With bitterblossom decks on the rise like Nihil's neat deck Galois and standstill faeries(at least from what I see online in random mws games and deck check), my pet deck Dutch Stax is not something I'd bring to a big unknown meta. Maybe I am just not comfortable enough with it though.

[Skeggi]

Bring (Ur) Dreadstill. Apparently it wins...alot...

[Aggro_zombies]

What:
FUCK YEAH!

I would bring Aggro-Loam. You can assume that there will be a fair amount of Counterbalance floating around, which makes combo unattractive for all but the most experienced players. Aggro-Loam's only truly weak matchup is combo, everything else can be made to be in your favor (to varying degrees).

Also, I like Life from the Loam decks.

[Ch@os]

ITF, its just good.

[wolfstorm]

One of the nice benefits to bringing combo to a GP is the fact that the games will most likely be short and you will have a lot of free time to scout/relax etc..

[Deep6er]

@nitewolf9: Well played, sir.

I would probably bring It's the Fear. Versatile, while powerful, it allows for me to play the best Magic I can, which hopefully leads to me outplaying my opponent.

[Shugyosha]

Bring what you can play!! It makes no sense to pick "the best deck" if you cannot play it really really good.

There are probably 2-3 decks you can play best so choose from one of those and tweak it.

[Captain Hammer]

Good point Shuyosha. Like I said, I've had the most success with Doran Suicide out of all my decks, but that could just be regarding my comfort level with the deck.


Captain Hammah:

You really have a hard time against burn with geddon stax?

The burn list I keep losing to plays maindeck 4 PoP, 3 Sulfuric Vortex and 4 Ankh of Mishra (something I recommend for ALL burn lists), and brings in BOTH shaterring sprees and smash to smithereens from the board.

I only play 2 maindeck O. Rings (the same as most lists), so I really don't have much to answer the Ankhs and Vortexes. Plus, he pretty much just completely ignores all the cards I play aimed at creatures (ghostly prison, cataclysm, magus) and seems to respond to armageddon with fireblast like every time I don't have a trini resolved.

I should write, CAN lose to burn, depending on the build.

[scrumdogg]

Captain Hammah:

You really have a hard time against burn with geddon stax? I find with sphere of law, cotv and 3sphere I rape the shit out of them. The only rough thing is losing to a super lucky PoP before getting another cotv down or what have you.

With bitterblossom decks on the rise like Nihil's neat deck Galois and standstill faeries(at least from what I see online in random mws games and deck check), my pet deck Dutch Stax is not something I'd bring to a big unknown meta. Maybe I am just not comfortable enough with it though.

SNIP - PR

Reading tournament reports from the area you will be playing in to garner trends (and hopefully talking to some of the previously successful players) goes much further than trying to base information off a program that is A) international B) chock full of drooling fuckwits C) allows you to play with cards you don't own. Quite frankly, many MWS players wouldn't get out of the 0-X bracket in an actual Legacy tournament regardless of what deck they played until at least Round 3 (when they would start playing each other...). The only time MWS might be a factor is in a high number of proxies Legacy tournament, but even then, you should worry about good decks run by good players.

[Nelis]

Rb Goblins with a good discard package vs combo in my sideboard.

[Maveric78f]

FUCK YEAH!

I would bring Aggro-Loam. You can assume that there will be a fair amount of Counterbalance floating around, which makes combo unattractive for all but the most experienced players. Aggro-Loam's only truly weak matchup is combo, everything else can be made to be in your favor (to varying degrees).

Also, I like Life from the Loam decks.

It has also hard time against counterbalance, so I don't get the (first) point. Plus, more and more decks play 3/4 relics MD because it's like a cantrip that kills goyf/jotun and prevent your opponent from playing Tombstalker, in addition to free SB slots. Aggro Loam is definitely the last deck I would play now.

If you really think that combo is going to be annihilated, then just play Rb Gobs. It owns most CB decks, even after an outrageous SBing (+6 BEB). Personnally, I would not take the risk and I would play as everybody a CB deck (but definitely neither a basic Thresh nor dreadstill) or an aggro-control chalice deck (Faerie Stompy, AfFoWnity or Imp Stompy).

[Cenarius]

Threshold ofcourse. CB wins a lot of matchups. Threshold doesnt have many really bad matchups and has a lot of good matchup's.
Otherwise Landstill. It always has a constant good results on hugh tournaments.

[emidln]

DDFT (maindeck Duress/Pyroblast/Chant) w/a sb including the remainder of my acceleration, 2 Infernal Tutor, and 1 Ad Nauseam.

[rockout]

I would choose consistency over anything. In an unknown meta, you want a deck that will consistency perform well against any deck you should face. This includes lots of draw or card manipulation. Something like Landstill, MUC, Thresh, and Dreadstill are all solid choices because they have lots of draw and counters > format.

[Mordel]

*snip*

I don't know about the bit about mws players being horrible at tangible card tournies...I haven't lived in a metropolitan area with an actual legacy metagame or even mtg player base in ages, yet somehow friends and I would test online against each other as well as randoms, go to tournaments of formats ranging from sealed to extended before they rotated the format to hell.

You're making a really big generalization there.

I understand some people online will just dl a good deck and coast on its raw power and lack actual skill, but people do that irl too.

[Bryant Cook]

Just get good at TES and then play TES. I think it's pretty close to the best deck in the format.

[Sims]

You need to realize that Clark Cant/Sack of Hammers/ whatever-alternate-account-he-is-spamming-on-this-week doesn't actually play this format IRL. Hell, he doesn't test either, but you can count on him for suggestions on how to make your deck 'better'. Relying on that information would be as mistaken as making your deck choice based on MWS play. Reading tournament reports from the area you will be playing in to garner trends (and hopefully talking to some of the previously successful players) goes much further than trying to base information off a program that is A) international B) chock full of drooling fuckwits C) allows you to play with cards you don't own. Quite frankly, many MWS players wouldn't get out of the 0-X bracket in an actual Legacy tournament regardless of what deck they played until at least Round 3 (when they would start playing each other...). The only time MWS might be a factor is in a high number of proxies Legacy tournament, but even then, you should worry about good decks run by good players.

And you were so nice when I finally met you in person....


Also: Wildfire. Why? Because I can.

[Captain Hammer]

scrumdog,

I don't know what I did to provoke you. But please don't make blatantly false baseless accusations. Every single deck I listed, I have built in real life. Every game I've played in the past six months, my play experience for the past six months is entirely based in real life games. Hell, I haven't even bothered to install MWS on my computer since I formatted a half year ago. But nevertheless, I don't share your views on MWS. I think you can find good players in MWS. I just don't play online because I don't have fun playing without having the actual cards, the art and flavor in front of me.

[SomeRandomDude]

Nothing is more fun then bringing a glass canon.
I say Land Grant SI!
No one will see it coming. :tongue:

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I'd say Ichorid, but more importantly not control. In an unknown meta, bringing the wrong type of control deck can spell disaster.

[from Cairo]

Control, with a good board plan against combo.

[Rood]

Either Landstill, TA, Dreadstill, or Ugr Canadian Thresh. They have the most all around consistent matchups.

[scrumdogg]

I don't know about the bit about mws players being horrible at tangible card tournies...I haven't lived in a metropolitan area with an actual legacy metagame or even mtg player base in ages, yet somehow friends and I would test online against each other as well as randoms, go to tournaments of formats ranging from sealed to extended before they rotated the format to hell.

You're making a really big generalization there.

I understand some people online will just dl a good deck and coast on its raw power and lack actual skill, but people do that irl too.

I said many, not all, and I did not specify other formats - as I don't have MWS experience doing anything but Legacy. The key part of your statement, however, was you and your friends (actual people from whom you could trade feedback & information, presumably they don't suck as well...) using MWS to test versus each other. Yes, you beat on randoms (some of whom were competent, I'm sure) but you had a playtest group. That makes your experience with (and use of) MWS different (and both better and more productive) than many people. I played DKK (3rd in the Dutch GPT, going to GP Chicago) last night on MWS, randomly, and he played a deck have never seen before (and hope to never see again...). It was tight, fun and educational - and while I learned more from those losses than any of the previous victories that night, I would not take that deck into my calculations for any tournament I go to. If I do see it, I have some experience versus the deck and have a tentative plan (both pre & post board).
Do you feel, seriously, that the games you played against randoms on MWS were as valuable as the testing with your friends? If so, why? And truthfully, in your experience, whom would you rather face in a tournament - your playtesting friends or most of your opponents from MWS (excluding the emotional factor of having to play a friend). Why?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Mighty Quinn.

Because it beats everything.

Except Flashfires.


And Stench of Evil.

And Cold Snap.

[nitewolf9]

Mighty Quinn.

Because it beats everything.

Except Flashfires.


And Stench of Evil.

And Cold Snap.

Whatever, I'll wreck that deck with gloom. In multiples.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Mighty Quinn.

Because it beats everything.

Except Flashfires.


And Stench of Evil.

And Cold Snap.
You know, back in the days of Rabid Wombat, each one of those cards found its way into my brother's and my sideboards in local tournaments. They were included just to beat Jack Elgin.

True story.

Of course, we never got paired. DCI Reporter is such a harsh mistress.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You know, back in the days of Rabid Wombat, each one of those cards found its way into my brother's and my sideboards in local tournaments. They were included just to beat Jack Elgin.

True story.

Of course, we never got paired. DCI Reporter is such a harsh mistress.

Where now the snows of yesteryear?

[Shugyosha]

Its really funny how like 70% of the people posting here are suggesting their pet deck.

To make my point clear that you should only play decks you can play see the following quote from LSV about deck choices:


"You really need to be able to maximize the deck you are playing. If you are not suited to playing Faeries—don't play Faeries."

"Michael Jacob is a perfect example," he illustrated. "The deck he was playing was really good and he was playing it really well. It was the exact kind of deck he likes to play. When he feels like he is backed into playing a deck he doesn't like he is not going to do as well. If it conflicts with his play style he is going to be miserable. It is the same reason I wouldn't play something like Zoo. I have playtested with it enough—a lot actually. It would change my mind if Zoo was exactly the right deck but it never has been—at least not in any of the tournaments I have played in."

[darkalucard]

This is what I think are the qualities of a deck you should play.


Consistent
Fits Your Playstyle
You have allot of experiece with the deck. (Its better to play a worse deck good than playing a better deck worse.) :confused:
Not Easilly Hated Out (Like Goblins, Combo, Etc.)
Good All Around Match-Ups (Doesn't Auto Lose to certain Decks or Cards)
I would suggest playing a deck with a potentially aggressive strategy over a deck that can't win faster than Turn 10. I think it's good to put allot of decisions on your opponent so that they will make mistakes. Have a pressing strategy where they are forced to react.


I'm not sure but I think this leaves decks with these qualities:

Blue Based
Has at least 8 Creatures


Although I hope I'm wrong.

[Captain Hammer]

[I'm not sure but I think this leaves decks with these qualities:

Blue Based
Has at least 8 Creatures


Although I hope I'm wrong.

First of all, I think it's fine if the deck takes a while to win if it locks down the opponent quickly. I think geddon stax is very viable, despite taking a while to win.

Also, this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12432) meets every one of the requirements you laid out, and it's certainly not blue based.

[TheRock]

I would probably have to bring a deck that contained a generic control shell (Aluren, Dreadstill, Landstill, Threshold) or Solidarity.

I think Brain Freeze is just sexy. Why bring a saw and gun to a fight when you can bring liquid nitrogen?

[darkalucard]

First of all, I think it's fine if the deck takes a while to win if it locks down the opponent quickly. I think geddon stax is very viable, despite taking a while to win.

You ask what was good for a big tournament. I do not think Stax is a good choice because with long games you may run into a draw. And with such a reactive strategy you cannot have an answer to every deck. Most likely in a big tournament like GP Chigago you will end up losing a game due you not having all the answers or the right ones. You will probably end up with a draw. And without blue mana your deck wont be as consistent as a threshold base and you will have to take some extra mulligans and get mana flooded a few more times than a Threshold base. That could cost you a game or two also. I'm talking about long term. In the short term in small tournaments I would love to play that deck. But in the long term you may get lucky but I think you will run into a problem to many.


Also, "Doran Sucide" meets every one of the requirements you laid out, and it's certainly not blue based.

This does seem like the deck for you. And most likely you should play something at least similar in style. I would make sure your list can beat combo. And also I would consider running something closer to Tombstone. Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=231309&postcount=107). Because it has more consistency with Brainstorm and Harmonize. Although I think most players in the Eva Green / Tombstone / Rock Style have opted to go for Team America for even more consistency and a better combo match up especially with the rise of combo because of the printing of Ad Nausem. But even without the blue I think it can be viable. I would deff play "Doran Sucide" over Stax b/c at least it plays threats that apply pressure on your opponent.

[Piceli89]

Its really funny how like 70% of the people posting here are suggesting their pet deck.


QFT. In harmony with all of you, I'd say to bring Fluctuator.dec at this point..

"It can draw your deck in just one turn!! "

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

QFT. In harmony with all of you, I'd say to bring Fluctuator.dec at this point..

"It can draw your deck in just one turn!! "

As far as I know, Sims and I are the only ones that suggested rogue-ish decks, and the question was in the second person.

So, I mean, are you going anywhere with this, or are you just being HardGrunge?

[darkalucard]

I agree. The basic consensus is play a deck with a blue control shell. Almost all the decks named are because of this. More like 15% are naming their own decks and they're not too serious about it either.

I honestly like the idea of the thread and would like to steer discussion to:

What is the most consistent well rounded deck?

Most likely it involves:
Force of Will
Brainstorm
Daze
Ponder

As I would say the Threshold base is more consistent than Landstill.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Something that isn't blue since this is most people's attitudes towards big tournaments "Thresh is strong, I will play Thresh" or "Landstill is good against an unknown meta, I will take that and be on the safe side." Take advantage of people's inability to play decks that don't run Force of Will and get destroyed by Wasteland recursion or Choke.

Going into a big tournament I would bring either of these decks since I really think they would smash the meta, G/B/w Rock or R/G/b Aggro Loam, either of those would be solid. They both smash Thresh, Dreadstill, and Landstill and are good against random garbage. I would probably take Rock since it has better Burn matchups. Whatever you play, just make sure to run Choke in the SB, you will be using it all day long!

EDIT: After going through the first page, Team8Threat.dec would not be a good idea. Play a deck that does not lose to black creatures and Swords to Plowshares. I certainly agree with nickrit about that deck only having a cute name.

[rleader]

So, I mean, are you going anywhere with this, or are you just being HardGrunge?

I actually had someone tell me in a non-Magic forum that "you don't need expensive cards to play legacy competitively, it's a budget format with tons of decks like Fluctuator that can win on turn one. People who lose to more expensive decks than that just suck, because it's your brains, not the cards."

[raharu]

Doran Suicide, with 3 Ashenmoor Gougers instead of Hypnotic Specter, and this sideboard:

Choke x3/4
Pithing Needle x3/4 (Pernicious Deed, Manlands, Sensei's Divining Top, EE, so basically threshold and Landstill)
Aethersworn Cannonist x4 (le wrecks combo)
Ghostly Prison x4 (for the random Aggro that is bound to show up. Slow it down, run it the fuck over, :DDD)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Choke seems ridiculous in this metagame. Absurd, even. Then, so does Boil.

[raharu]

Choke seems ridiculous in this metagame. Absurd, even. Then, so does Boil.
lol, who plays Red?

[dahcmai]

I've been considering playing a deck I made that is way off into the rogue range, but has amazingly good matchups against any type of control and stomps goblins into the ground hard. Only problem is it loses pretty hard to Combo game 1. You can board in some hate, but it's still a crappy matchup. Kind of like the problem 43 lands has.

I tested it against Team America and Dreadstill and it's very favorable. Think it's worth trying in Chicago? I still think it seems a little crazy since it has a horrid matchup against Belcher. TES and such isn't quite as bad, but still not great. The mana costs just make it a turn 3 kill deck and no faster. The only hope is it has white for Runed Halo. Bleh, not the best answer in the world for Tendrils.

The biggest advantage is people are just going to look at me strange and try to figure out what the hell I'm playing more than anything else. Surprise goes a long way especially with a deck I know well.

[Jak]

Hmm this is a good question. I would want to bring something fun and that I've played. Of course, I would want it to be good because losing is boring, but I also don't want to get bored playing Ichorid or something like that.

Probably something like Truffle Shuffle and Rock mix. Good control and sweepers but nice beats that the rock has.

[raharu]

I wouldn't play something with a bad combo match at a GP, personally. Combo is always the knee-jerk answer to "what should I play at X large event?" because of the short matches, and that is logical, if short-sighted. I wouldn't go in hoping not to see combo.

[mercenarybdu]

I would bring in my usual artillery with a SB of what I assume is what's going to show up, and see how far I actually go.

I'm not too good so net decking is not an option (I'm not Raphael Levy).

[dahcmai]

Thanks Raharu, that was my question if people did tend to bring combo in casually because they couldn't think of anything better. Guess I'll be sticking with my control deck. It's so agonizingly slow though. So much for the Mickey D's runs in between, but at least I'll do well.

[SpikeyMikey]

Thanks Raharu, that was my question if people did tend to bring combo in casually because they couldn't think of anything better. Guess I'll be sticking with my control deck. It's so agonizingly slow though. So much for the Mickey D's runs in between, but at least I'll do well.


Yeah, he's absolutely right. I'm considering taking ANT. I think a lot of people won't prepare for combo because they'll assume that it's going to autolose to anything with CB, but ANT is still explosive and can snag games here and there just with T1 wins. ANT is basically my fall-back plan; if I can't come up with some homebrew that I like against the field, I'll go with ANT.

I'm most concerned about TA and UGW Thresh. Secondary considerations for me are ANT, Affinity and Faeries.

Never underestimate people's willingness to bring 1.x ports to a 1.5 tournament. Most of them are balls with deck design, but a lot of them are competent players using decks they've got tons of experience with, which means that basically any round in the first half of the tournament, you can expect to face semi-competitive randomness. Despite what others might say, playing a tier 1 deck does not automatically move you past the first 4 rounds, and even a single loss early can dump you in a mire of random bullshit. If you can't deal with random bullshit in the first place, you're fucked unless you get paired up against solid decks in the early rounds. I prefer not to shoot for day 2 on a wing and a prayer.

I wouldn't make jank a primary testing target, but once something's performed reasonably well against whatever gauntlet you set up, test against bullshit; if you're playing something that doesn't cut it, I'd strongly consider tossing it back on the pile and trying something else.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@ raharu: Gaddock Teeg is better combo hate than Canonist. Since he is on color (G/W) he really screws up combo a lot better because its more broad. Teeg stops Belcher flat, they can still win through Canonist by dropping artifacts and then winning with Belcher but with Teeg it isn't possible. Teeg is also useful in the Dredge matchup since he stops Dread Return.

[b4r0n]

@ raharu: Gaddock Teeg is better combo hate than Canonist. Since he is on color (G/W) he really screws up combo a lot better because its more broad. Teeg stops Belcher flat, they can still win through Canonist by dropping artifacts and then winning with Belcher but with Teeg it isn't possible. Teeg is also useful in the Dredge matchup since he stops Dread Return.

I disagree. Against storm combo (which, in my opinion, is the type of combo you should be most worried about) Teeg shuts down the engines and win conditions, but has no effect on the tutors or acceleration. Canonist slows down storm combo entirely, making him more difficult to answer.

Belcher is a glass cannon, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Teeg is certainly better against it, but still, the chances of them being able to win through Canonist are pretty slim (they would need multiple Petals + Ritual + LED). Against Ichorid, I wouldn't run either Teeg or Canonist. Teeg is marginally more useful, but it only prevents them from using Dread Return. It does nothing against hordes of Zombie tokens. You'd be better off with Crypt/Leyline/etc anyways.

[Humphrey]

I would say, Cunning Landstill is one of the most versatile decks. I would bring this, if i wanna win.
If ure the all-or-nothing guy, get belcher or nauseam

[Pulp_Fiction]

It is views like this one that make Rock and Eva Green such a house in big tournaments. Even though they know its coming Landstill and Thresh usually aren't versatile enough to handle Choke. And if they start dedicating SB slots towards cheaper Enchantment hate like Naturalize it makes other matchups weaker. And the threat of an imminent Choke makes the opponent start playing around it and casting less and less spells until they build up enough lands to K.Grip it and cast stuff. Much like how people play around Daze. Such a great card. Big tournament, run sick fast aggro like Zoo, or solid control decks with Choke in the board like Aggro Loam or Rock.

[Citrus-God]

It is views like this one that make Rock and Eva Green such a house in big tournaments. Even though they know its coming Landstill and Thresh usually aren't versatile enough to handle Choke. And if they start dedicating SB slots towards cheaper Enchantment hate like Naturalize it makes other matchups weaker. And the threat of an imminent Choke makes the opponent start playing around it and casting less and less spells until they build up enough lands to K.Grip it and cast stuff. Much like how people play around Daze. Such a great card. Big tournament, run sick fast aggro like Zoo, or solid control decks with Choke in the board like Aggro Loam or Rock.

How is Landstill not versatile enough against Choke? Last I checked, they only run 12 Islands out of their 23 Lands. This leaves 4 Factories, 3 Plains, 1 Scrubland, 4-5 fetchlands and 3 Wastelands as non-blue mana. If you wanna throw in 2 Eternal Dragons, that's 17-18 non-blue mana sources. They can just cast an EE or Vindicate to get rid of Choke. Some builds even run Krosan Grips or Cunning Wish. I know there are lists that run Deed as well, which is another out.

I think the card you have to consider at this point is Tsunami.

[Captain Hammer]

So the only colored mana sources you have are... 3 Plains and 1 Scrubland.

Eva Green and Doran Suicide run 4 Wasteland + 4 Sinkhole + 4 Vindicate to take out the one Scrubland.

Both Vindicate and EE requires 2-3 colors to be playable.

Tsumani is an interesting suggestion though.

What're your thoughts on devoting a whopping 8 slots in the sideboard to hating on all bluebased decks?

4 Choke
4 Tsumani

should overwhelm blue based decks of all forms, from TA to Landstill to Thresh to even stuff like Fairie Stompy.

What do you guys think? Is it overkill?

If blue is going to be as prevalent as it seems like it will, then it would be downright broken to play 8 one sided Armageddons.

Which is better? Choke or Tsunami.