How to Combat Control in BU

[Isamaru]

What is the best way to combat control in BU?

This may seem like a silly/simple question
1. Every played blue deck is usually control or aggro control.
2. I am in BU, so I should have the easiest time with these decks, you'd think.

But the particular deck I'm playing is one in which Force of Will, Daze, and Counterbalance, cannot be used. It's not intentional, it's just how the deck functions that repels all three.

So, I have about 8 open slots in the sideboard that I am trying to dedicate to do the maximum damage against decks that hold a lot of cards in their hand instead of playing things out on the board.

My main trouble is with control and aggro-control decks because all their cards are in their hand, and their board is represented only by land and their dreaded Mishra's Factory. Their only permanents are Standstill, Pernicious Deed, Explosives, etc. (The rest I can easily handle - I am much much better prepared to handle creatures - it's land, artifacts, and enchantments that get me.) The other problem is that they can easily remove my important creatures.

I am also referring to the GB and GBw and Pox and Stax decks when I say that I have trouble with control. They also have very very few creatures. I guess I am looking for a way to combat decks that use so few creatures.

The most obvious solution, of course, is discard. And I'd want the sideboarded in discard spells to do maximum damage to fulfill their purpose of being in the board, so my first thought is:

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Augur of Skulls

I've also tried

4 Disrupt
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy (I actually have enough creatures to support it, but it never seems to do damage vs. control and aggro control, usually just combo slightly)

I am considering

4 Annul/Spell Snare/situational 1cc disruption
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Bitterblossom
4 Hymn to Tourach/Augur of Skulls

Disrupt truly can be brutal, frustrating, at a small cost ...but other times, it just can't protect me in the early turns as I'm trying to play things myself. It is nice to be able to have a slight defense against combo before I get a second turn (unlike with the 8x Hymn approach) ...which is why I've also tried Duress.

As a replacement to Duress/Disrupt, another thought is Annul. Annul helps because I'm usually most afraid of Artifacts and Enchantment spells, but it is almost dead vs. combo.
Pros - makes them pay for the full spell (as does Disrupt), where with Duress they don't have to play it in the first place.
Cons - can't disrupt Instants and Sorceries

A huge problem with Annul, Spell Snare, and situational 1cc counters sometimes only hit 4-8 cards in the opponents deck, which is sometimes not enough to be worth sideboarding in by a narrow margin... so you end up having to just not sideboard it in. (Like it not being worth it to bring Pithing Needle in against a deck with only 1-2 targets/unimportant targets)

I am leaning towards 4 Hymn 4 Augur.
Pros - best option vs. control and aggro control, decent choice against combo
Cons - not the best option vs. combo because they may combo turn 1, also vulnerable to Spell Snare

If you were playing Landstill or Threshold or ITF or Team America or Dreadstill or Pox or The Rock or Stax... which 8 cards would be the biggest threats you'd 'fear' postboard?

Large amounts of discard
A bit of discard and a bit of trickiness
A bit of targetted specific discard and a bit of mass discard
A one mana counterspell for your Artifacts and Enchantments and a bit of mass discard
A bit of mass discard and a pesky threat-producing 1B enchantment

[Aggro_zombies]

What are you playing? That 7/7 for :b::b: deck?

What your deck looks like has a big impact on what cards would be most appropriate in the sideboard.

[Isamaru]

The deck already has in it, between mainboard and sideboard

3 Engineered Explosives
3-4 Hydroblast/BEB
2 Propaganda
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Trinket Mage

But the thread is more for a discussion of useful ways to combat decks that use so few creatures

[hi-val]

Raven's Crime + Life from the Loam

Vendilion Clique

[Aggro_zombies]

The deck already has in it, between mainboard and sideboard

3 Engineered Explosives
3-4 Hydroblast/BEB
2 Propaganda
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Trinket Mage

But the thread is more for a discussion of useful ways to combat decks that use so few creatures
Well, then, let me put it this way:

If you're running a deck with a high threat density and fast clock, you can run discard. Control decks can get out from under one-shot discard spells relatively easily, but doing so while you're losing 7+ life a turn is kinda hard.

If you're running a low threat density but fast clock (i.e., Dreadstill), Counterbalance and counters in general are probably best, with maybe the addition of Thoughtseize. Counters allow you to intercept their important spells, but without giving them the opportunity to weather an early disruption onslaught. Counters are also much better if they go into topdeck mode, which could happen in an attrition war (a situation where you can't find your primary threat quickly and have to grind it out while you're looking for it).

If you're playing a low threat density and slow clock, but aren't playing Landstill or a similar deck, you may wish to play Landstill or a similar deck instead.

So, I'll ask again: what are you playing? If it's that 7/7 for two mana deck, you may just want to run Dreadstill, which seems to be much, much better, since 7/7s for two are worse than 12/12s for two.

EDIT: What disruption you've already got in the main also has an effect on what you run. Putting counters in the board when you have none in the main is weak, and the same applies to discard. Getting hit with a random discard spell or two kinda hurts, but getting hit with a whole lot of them just downright sucks. If you already run discard, it would be better for you to run more in the board to compliment what light disruptive strategy you've got starting.

[GreenOne]

It would be really useful to know what's jour deck like, and if you want to keep the secret at least some thing like
- I'm playing combo, control-combo, aggro, aggrocontrol, etc.
- I'm playing x disruption spells between discard, etc, playing Y creatures that are big/small/utility.

I'd say that, generally, what control fears are threats and card advantage way more than 1 for 1 disruption and the like.

If my deck supports it, I'd go for some threats my Deed/counterbalance/EE opponent can't deal with, like Demigod or Volrath's stronghold. Or bury them with my card advantage with Confidant/Skeletal scrying/Phyrexian arena/FoF.

However, I'm not good with those kind of decks, so take my words with a grain of salt. Probably my suggestions are just plain wrong, but I think you need to think outside the box and surprise them, working against the plan they focus on.

[Isamaru]

I figured Vendilion Clique, Phyrexian Arena / Jace Beleren, and FoF would all be useless because they simply won't resolve.

Vendilion Clique I had considered, and theres a possibility it might resolve because of Flash... but Arena/Jace are bound to just get countered.

I also considered Benthic Djinn. But again, the cards have to also hurt combo, and not just blue control... again, I want to think of cards that punish decks that play so few creatures.

[GreenOne]

Arena/Jace are bound to just get countered.
Having a higher number of must-counters is tech: the opponent won't counter anything, they usually play 8 counters in the entire deck, so you just have to look for threats that they have to counter, cause they're otherwise difficult to remove (with deed, EE, Smother, whatever) or counterbalace. Also. Good luck at countering your 2nd Demigod, adn stifling the trigger of the other too.

EDIT: Hounting Echoes is a must counter too in the late game.

[bowvamp]

What I fear in pox is much different than what Threshold fears...
If pox is huge in your meta (my dream meta, finally I get to experience what a pox mirror match would be like!), I'd use some sort of arctifact/enchantment strategy. I've always had trouble dealing with Bitterblossom, but to fight combo that would be total failure. I can't think up of ANY combination of 2 cards that can fight off 2 of the 4 main kinds of decks. That should be a good indicator that if your deck needs 8 cards to do something like this, find a new deck... (I'm not up for doing herculean tasks today)

[GreenOne]

finally I get to experience what a pox mirror match would be like!

I can't imagine nothing more boring atm.


I'd use some sort of arctifact/enchantment strategy. I've always had trouble dealing with Bitterblossom
Those are both good suggestions.

If fact you should side something that doesn't use the same way of winning you have MD.

Eg. Siding in enchantments/artifacts is a good option, cause the opponent is unlikely to side their krosan grips. This won't work if you already have ENch/Art in the MD: the opponent is going to side his Grips anyway.

Same thing goes for grave recursion strategies: if you're already abusing the graveyard in the MD, don't plan in sididng Tombstalkers/Volrath's stronghold/Demigod, cause the opponent will side tormods/leylines in.

[Aggro_zombies]

I can't imagine nothing more boring atm.
Quinn mirror.

[rleader]

Quinn mirror.

Someone will tutor chantlock first and get it (or be baited into doing it with not enough mana and then get their scepter oblivion ringed) and then it's about two minutes before there's a grindstone victory. I'd imagine, anyway.

[FoolofaTook]

Unmask and Nevinyrral's Disk are an interesting set of options against CounterTop. Force the real counters out of their hand with Unmask and then cast disk, which CounterTop is not going to stop.

[Isamaru]

Those are both good suggestions.

If fact you should side something that doesn't use the same way of winning you have MD.

Eg. Siding in enchantments/artifacts is a good option, cause the opponent is unlikely to side their krosan grips. This won't work if you already have ENch/Art in the MD: the opponent is going to side his Grips anyway.

Same thing goes for grave recursion strategies: if you're already abusing the graveyard in the MD, don't plan in sididng Tombstalkers/Volrath's stronghold/Demigod, cause the opponent will side tormods/leylines in.

Good point

Also, hi-val, I could actually plash for LftL + Raven's Crime... not a bad idea! Seriously, that is one of the few combinations that can solve a lot of the problems, reasonably equally among the problem matchups.

[hi-val]

Teferi and Urza's Factory are also good ones, if you have time and mana for them.

[SpikeyMikey]

I can't imagine nothing more boring atm.

You sir, are not trying hard enough. You've never played an old T1 Oath mirror (back when Oath was feeder/weaver/morphling).

I had a Keeper vs. bad MUC go to time on game 1 about 7 years ago, I won on turn 4 of turns with stroke for 14 (after repeated crypt --> timetwister) after I was forced to FoW with my morphling early on.

Not to mention the whole host of MtG-unrelated boringness like golf, old people or picking chicks up at the bar.

[Pulp_Fiction]

This thread is useless, I don't understand why everyone wants to keep their lists a secret. I get the whole secret tech thing, but asking for help with a deck and not posting the list that needs help, and not even saying what the archetype is ... come on. I felt cheated after scanning over the thread looking for a list. Anyway, so it wasn't a complete waste of time, I will make a suggestion. Defense Grid is solid against control.

To the second question, I can answer this proudly. When playing my current B/G/w Rock build there are only 2 things that scare me, watching the opponent play a turn 1 Gemstone Mine because this means they are running combo or Dredge OR watching the opponent play turn 1 Exploration, Tabernacle because this means they are playing some kind of Lands! variant. Aside from that, watching turn 1 Tropical Island into Top always makes me smile!

[bowvamp]

hi-val: Urza's Factory? Seriously? Teferi? Really? Those cards were houses in standard like 2 years ago, and have NEVER been playable in legacy. Perhaps you meant to say Mishra's Factory...

[hi-val]

hi-val: Urza's Factory? Seriously? Teferi? Really? Those cards were houses in standard like 2 years ago, and have NEVER been playable in legacy. Perhaps you meant to say Mishra's Factory...

No, I meant Urza's Factory. It gets big really quickly, dodges counters and most removal, and doesn't require mana on your turn. Obviously, it's never been played in Legacy, but I certainly see it being playable. For example, in a UW Control deck like what Brian Demars played at the last Meandeck Open, many times he'd have 9-10 lands out and wanted Factory but couldn't support it because of B2B. In a deck like that, Factory is perfect. You drop Standstill later in the game and just ride 2 Assembly Workers to victory.

Teferi is along the lines of "well, Meloku is certainly playable..." is about as terrifying as it gets in a control mirror.

[RogueMTG]

No, I meant Urza's Factory. It gets big really quickly, dodges counters and most removal, and doesn't require mana on your turn. Obviously, it's never been played in Legacy, but I certainly see it being playable. For example, in a UW Control deck like what Brian Demars played at the last Meandeck Open, many times he'd have 9-10 lands out and wanted Factory but couldn't support it because of B2B. In a deck like that, Factory is perfect. You drop Standstill later in the game and just ride 2 Assembly Workers to victory.

Teferi is along the lines of "well, Meloku is certainly playable..." is about as terrifying as it gets in a control mirror.

.... The deck can get 9-10 lands out because it stalls the game with things like b2b... removing that for Urza's Factory is just dumb.

[Skeggi]

If you were playing Landstill or Threshold or ITF or Team America or Dreadstill or Pox or The Rock or Stax... which 8 cards would be the biggest threats you'd 'fear' postboard?

Large amounts of discard
A bit of discard and a bit of trickiness
A bit of targetted specific discard and a bit of mass discard
A one mana counterspell for your Artifacts and Enchantments and a bit of mass discard
A bit of mass discard and a pesky threat-producing 1B enchantment

Stax hates discard. Stax also hates counterspells. Stax can be okay with cards with cmc1, because of Trinisphere and Chalice@1. I think you're pretty safe against Stax (Against Stax, strongest choice is probably 4x Duress, 4x Hymn to Tourach).

[Aggro_zombies]

This thread is useless, I don't understand why everyone wants to keep their lists a secret. I get the whole secret tech thing, but asking for help with a deck and not posting the list that needs help, and not even saying what the archetype is ... come on. I felt cheated after scanning over the thread looking for a list. Anyway, so it wasn't a complete waste of time, I will make a suggestion. Defense Grid is solid against control.

If it makes you feel better, I believe his list is the sixth place one from here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=313133&postcount=1


6th Stephen Judd (???)
2 Riptide Laboratory
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Swamp
2 Island
4 Gilded Drake
4 Hunted Horror
4 Dark Confidant
4 Sage of Epityr
3 Trinket Mage
2 Relic of Prognetus
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ponder
3 Repeal
2 Smother
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Aether Vial
3 Tel-Jilad Stylus
1 Despotic Scepter

Sideboard:
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Augur of Skulls
2 Propoganda
4 Hydroblast
2 Relic of Prognitus
This is most similar to what I know he was playing previously. Looks like he went for Augur and Hymn.

[GreenOne]

Actually, maybe was better with the secret list.
In fact, once I saw that list, the first thing that came into mind was not the SB material, but "why the hell is he playing Tel-Jilad and Despotic when Echoing Truth does the exact same thing, and can be used for other things? Even stifle ca do the job (Gilded Drake aside)".

Maybe you should look into stifle for the SB if you're getting crushed by Deeds or EEs, cause it's a synergistic card with your deck.

Also, did you try Mystic Remora?

[hi-val]

.... The deck can get 9-10 lands out because it stalls the game with things like b2b... removing that for Urza's Factory is just dumb.

I mean, clearly. That's the reason why I said it in my post.